Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 33545
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2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

2004/9/15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33545 Activity:very high
9/15    Emmanuel Goldstein at the RNC:
        http://www.2600.com/rnc2004
        \_ Yeah!  Civil disobedience!  What?  You mean I might get
           arrested for breaking the law?!?  NO FAIR MAN!
           \_ No, you get arrested for not breaking the law.
              Do you seriously support jailing people for their political
              beliefs?
              \_ No, I support people being arrested for breaking the law
                 though.  I just pointing out that it's really amusing how
                 protesters always seem to think that civil disobediance
                 should be legal.  I'm not saying that that's what
                 everyone in New York was doing, but it's obvious
                 even from this report that a lot of "civil disobediance"
                 was going on.
                 \_ Goldstein was not breaking any laws.  Did you read the
                    link?
                 \_ What site did you read?  It sounds to me like a whole bunch
                    of people just got rounded up on the street and arrested
                    for no reason.  Certainly *some* of them were breaking
                    the law, but to just arrest everyone when most are being
                    peaceful and law-abiding is political repression, plain
                    and simple.
                    \_ Well, we're only getting one side of the story. If
                       the NYPD arrested people without charging them, then
                       that's a tort case for illegal imprisonment. One would
                       have to read the charges to get a clearer picture.
                       I wonder what the total number of protestors was, the
                       percentage arrested was probably very small.
                       \_ So you don't see anything vaguely... oppressive
                          about mass roundups and incarceration of people
                          in order to arrest a few scattered people?
                          \_ Interesting, you assume that one side of the
                             story is valid without having heard the other.
                             Since neither you nor I (and please correct
                             me if I'm wrong) have all the facts pertaining
                             to the incident you presuppose that mass
                             oppression has occurred. I suppose it depends
                             on your definition of oppression. If incarceration
                             is simply oppression then all people incarcerated,
                             whether guilty or not, are oppressed. Being
                             detained can definitely be viewed as a type
                             of oppression. However, if you are trying to
                             infer from that that we are living in an
                             oppressive society then I believe that your
                             argument is rather weak. Sure, there is oppression
                             in the criminal justice system. I'm not quite
                             sure how you could have it any other way.
                             At least we don't guillotine people on the spot
                             and afford them the right to due process and
                             a right to seek damages through torts from
                             the government.
                             \_ You may wish to consult Amendment I, regarding
                                "freedom of assembly." [restored]
                                \_ Yer gonna need a permit for that. -troll
                          \_ nah, it didn't happen to supporters of the
                             President so no one cares.  There were no
                             terrorist incidents, either, so it must have
                             been a good policy.  Be proud of NY City's
                             finest! -troll
                       \_ This happens all the time in SF. Last time it
                          did, The City had to pay out $10k to each
                          person illegally incarcerated. I expect NYC
                          to end up doing the same thing. Municipalities
                          probably consider it money well spent. I
                          consider it a violation of civil liberties.
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7/9     

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Printer-friendly version 1 Introduction 2 16th Street 3 Pier 57 4 The Tombs 5 Freedom 6 Aftermath 7 Audio, Video, and Images Notes From the RNC - The 8/31 Experience The shock of what happened on August 31 is still wearing off for those of us unfortunate enough to be caught up in what can only be described as a desperate act by law enforcement. It seems silly to say that these were traumatizing events when there's so much more going on in the world - and in our own backyards - that's far worse. We had the whole world watching and we had our friends outside who never stopped trying to get us out. We had the National Lawyers Guild working around the clock. And of course, we had lots of company since there were so many of us stuck together in one place. But despite all of this - and I think I speak for the majority here - what we went through shook us to the core and will take quite a bit of time to get out of our systems. If you were there then you probably already understand this. If you weren't, then this is an opportunity to share one perspective of what happened. Now when I say August 31, I refer to the date that 1200 or so people were swept off the streets of Manhattan by the police, myself included. There were many others who were snatched on other days (the total being 1821 at last count) but August 31 has come to represent the enormity of the operation so that's how I'll always refer to it. This was two days after the massive march through the streets of New York where up to half a million people walked past Madison Square Garden in opposition to the Republican National Convention (or, more specifically, to George W Bush). Oddly enough, the city had managed to turn what everyone had understood was to be a peaceful event into some sort of confrontation by refusing to allow a rally on the Great Lawn of Central Park. But it all worked out for the most part: The march was a great success and lots of people came to the park to rally anyway since that's one of those rights many people believe they still have. But the park turnout was nothing like the numbers that would have shown up if there wasn't the cloud of potential trouble hanging overhead. There were all kinds of demonstrations, marches, and acts of civil disobedience in New York throughout the week. You would think that al Qaeda was behind them all with the heavy artillery and military presence that was brought into the city. This alone was enough to shake up a lot of people and make them seriously reconsider standing out in any way. After all, not one of the tens of thousands of armed cops and commandoes could have stopped a plane from flying into a building or prevented a hidden bomb from blowing up. What they could and did do was send a powerful message that this city was now an armed camp and that those with the arms would do as they pleased and the rest of us would just have to deal with it. For many New Yorkers, it was like living under occupation. Especially not down at Union Square Park, where people insisted on being themselves despite all the warnings not to. They held rallies, stood on boxes shouting out to whoever would listen, got into passionate arguments with others, meditated, played music, sold literature, signed people up to vote, and never stopped. This was the place where New Yorkers gathered after September 11 to remember the victims and pray for the future without all the rhetoric and flag waving. In moments of crisis, people just tend to gravitate here. I remember watching one really heated exchange between some right wing religious people (who seemed to be saying that George W Bush was the son of God) and just about everybody else in the park. I had to give these religious types credit for speaking their minds, even though I was convinced they had left them behind somewhere. And what was striking here was that despite the passion and emotion, everyone was able to handle it. The cops, for some reason, stayed far away from the arguments. I was there to document the history that was being made. I had a mini-DV video camera, a Marantz tape deck that was strapped around my neck, and a digital camera that could also make thirty second movies. I was getting some good stuff too, not counting all the arguing. There was a tension growing in the crowd as police started implementing strange policies, like lining one of the exits with dozens of cops and forcing everyone coming and going to walk between them and not around them. One man got into an argument with a captain who told him to get moving. When the man asked for the captain's shield number, he was arrested. And, as any decent reporter will tell you, that's a situation you don't walk away from. The police continued with this tactic for a while longer, telling people they had to move in one direction or another for no reason in particular. One of the many musicians was threatened with arrest for being in a spot that was supposedly too close to the pathway that somebody might have to walk down to get to the subway (which is almost exactly how the officer phrased it). It was complete nonsense as that was the exact spot that people play in every day. But the musician defused the situation and packed up his stuff. I saw a guy who was distributing anti-Bush literature quickly throwing it all into a box and scurrying away after being threatened with arrest. It was weird seeing this kind of thing right in front of you and not on a TV program about some distant land where freedom is merely a concept. And it also showed me that the people here were not in any way looking for trouble. Unfair as these "orders" were, they just kept on complying. And when a marching band starts to play, you naturally gravitate over to it. So I filmed them for a while and then went off to look for something else. After a few minutes I saw that the marching band had actually started to march! They were heading north at Union Square East and apparently the police hadn't stopped them. It was hard to imagine how they could have gotten through so many cops without simply being allowed through. I started filming, not knowing what this was all about but it most definitely had a positive vibe to it.