8/25    To the guy who keeps saying US is an empire in decline.  Consider
        the very vigor of political conversation in this country.  There is
        competition of ideas here, more so than in any other place on Earth.
        No empire in decline in history would have such vigor and such
        competition.  On a somewhat related note, Foucalt once remarked that
        americans go on pilgrimages to France the same way the
        french used to go to Italy in the 18th Century -- to see _a dying
        civilization_.  -- ilyas
        \_ I've never seen anyone write that statement, but I'd point to the
           "why do you hate america / if you're not with us you're with the
           terrorists" types to refute your political vigor comment.  That
           stuff (used non-ironically) really does make me worry.
           \_ Erm, America has lots of people, and America (due to its unique
              position in the world) is perhaps more loudly heard than some
              other places.  I don't think the percentage of idiots here is
              greater than anywhere else, but the above 2 things perhaps makes
              it seem so.  There are smart people who genuinely care about
              doing the right thing arguing with each other, in heated earnest
              here.  We take it for granted, but it's almost a unique feature
              of our culture -- other places seem a lot more homogenous to
              me. -- ilyas
                \_ The perception of being full of stupid people probably
                   partially stems from US media being fairly homogenous in
                   any given place compared to elsewhere--which leads to
                   some pretty undifferentiated opinions.  For a country
                   where a comparatively large %age of the population is
                   college educated, you do hear some fairly shocking views
                   expressed.  The metropolitan/university crowd that you and
                   I hang out with is no measure--the bulk of the population
                   lives in places like bumfuck Idaho and isn't quite as
                   cosmopolitan.  That, and American tourists have whiny nasal
                   voices.  -John
                   \_ That you would put forth the "we're smart and the other
                      guys are stupid bumfucks" steroetype as a serious point
                      is, at best, disappointing.  The bay area has just as
                      many closed minded stupid people who believe what
                      they're told without thought as anywhere else.  The
                      so-called metropolitan/university crowd is nothing
                      special.  Just how much of the rest of this country
                      have you visited and how deeply have you engaged in
                      conversation with those unwashed, uneducated, rural,
                      gap tooth hicks you think occupy the rest of the
                      non-Bay Area parts of the country?  I do agree with you
                      that our media is pathetic.
                        \_ I am not merely referring to the BA.  I hate to
                           say it, but rural populations tend to have less
                           access to differentiated media and education than
                           urban types.  It's the same in Europe, except that
                           most rural communities are far closer to some
                           metropolitan center, and hence have better access
                           to information (not always right.)  -John
                           \_ Rural areas have the same access to newspaper
                              deliver, TV, cable, the net, satellites, and
                              everything else a city dweller has.  This isn't
                              the 1850s.  You're also still stuck on the
                              "cities are full of smart people, rural people
                              are stupid bumfucks" stereotype.  I've met more
                              than enough closed minded morons here to assure
                              me that stupidity is evenly spread out.
        \_ Ilya, whether it is one or not, the US certainly exhibits a lot
           of symptoms of "empire in decline".  Losing grip on alliances it
           once dominated, military overextension, rise of both economically
           and militarily viable competition, brain drain (think stem cell
           research moving to the UK), currency no longer used as a peg of
           absolute value due to several factors including overspending
           domestically--I could go on.  I'm not doing a chicken little here;
           empires nowadays no longer collapse and get overrun by visigoth
           hordes, but the US certainly shows signs of moving towards a way
           more conservative pattern of international prominence in a lot of
           aspects.  -John
           \_ Diplomatically this is certainly true -- Europe is not fond of
              the current administration.  Of course, Europe doesn't need the
              alliance with the US, i don't think it's reasonable to expect
              a tight, Cold War style huddling for warmth.  To draw a comparison
              to 19th century, none of the great powers felt obliged to be
              particularly cozy with Britain -- they had their own interests
              to worry about.  Military overextension is also true, but only
              because we aren't on a war footing.  I think the fact that we
              fought two wars recently without any real impact on consumers
              (compare WWII) is actually kind of amazing.  There are some
              structural problems with the way americans borrow, but I am not
              an economist, and don't undestand the implications of that.
              It could be problematic a la the Spanish gold collapse.  To
              summarize, things are not entirely peachy in the US, but it's hard
              to separate short term issues of policy from long term trends.
              At any rate, long term negative trends to me seem like symptoms
              of a disease, and I don't feel a disease here. -- ilyas
                \_ Fallacy of equation.  These were not "wars", but rather
                   what was referred to as "police actions" in the 1950s.  And
                   remember, it's not just Europe--a lot of the world has
                   reached a level of political and economic maturity unheared
                   of during the cold war.  The imperial presence is
                   increasingly no longer needed.  As for the disease, as an
                   "outsider", I see a definite fraying of the healthy
                   relationship between "the government" and "the people".  As
                   for your parallel with Great Britain, they had two
                   imperial foci--the "great powers" game, and the rest of
                   the underdeveloped world.  We do not have this to anything
                   near such a degree.  As it stands, the US is making the
                   tragic mistake of pursuing a foreign policy which seems
                   almost calculated to piss off the unwashed masses around
                   the world, while not being seen as consistent and moral
                   enough to get away with it.  In any case, you bring up too
                   many points to address thoroughly, sorry.  -John
        \_ I am empire in decline guy, but John says most of what I would
           say, but better. Didn't England have a pretty vigorous
           political culture from 1890-1950, during its similar period?
           \_ England at the height of their power was weaker than the US
              is today.  An empire does not collapse because of 4 to 8
              years of short term policy the Europeans don't like.  The idea
              that the rest of the third world once loved us and doesn't
              now because of the current administration is just silly.  The
              third world never loved us.  We only sent them money because
              the Soviets did and vice versa.  When was this magical period
              in time when our allies were super close to us and did all we
              wanted?  When the Soviets were knocking on their door.  Without
              the ultimate military threat on their eastern boarder, of course
              they don't want to do what we say anymore.  They don't have to
              so why should they?  Countries don't have friends and allies,
              they only have self interests.  Without the Soviets, it is no
              longer in their self interests to go along with any of our
              policies unless it directly benefits them.  Iraq is a great
              example.  They made lots of money off Hussein and the Russians
              were still owed billions of dollars which they badly needed.
              What did we offer in return to replace that money for our allies
              if they joined us?  Feeling good about toppling a butcher?  We
              offered nothing and they did the logical thing in their own
              self interest.  The US may not last forever but it sure as
              hell isn't an empire in decline.  Even the word 'empire' is
              wrongly applied.  If this is an empire, then the world has
              never seen an empire like this.  We have tremendous economic,
              political, and cultural power.  So much so that anytime we
              sneeze the rest of the world quivers due to the great imbalance
              of power.  But we very rarely actively go out of our way to do
              anything with that power.  Compare to Rome, the British Empire,
              ancient Sparta, the Ottomans, the rise and fall of Islam, the
              communist Russians, China right now, and many others.
        \_ You error in finding public US political conversation vigorous.
           Americans have become more shrill as both sides rush to extremes
           and found sin in moderation. America is not an empire in decline,
           but one without vision. It's a land torn with selfrighteousness,
           selfassurance, and false humility, barely able to trust it's own
           council much less that of others, and blindly following a mutant
           dogma of "pure" Capitalism and psuedo-Christian ethics to justify
           it's lack of humanity and vision. The mistake of empires is not
           caused by it's own power, be political, economic, social or
           military, but by it's own inability to find the strength to change.
           In that, America has the advantage. It has redirected and rebuilt
           itself several times. The question lies in will it be able to do
           it again when the time comes.
           \_ The time is always now.  It is always changing.  You're looking
              too closely at the trees, ignoring the forest.  (Heh, I always
              wanted to jam that cliche into some conversation, thanks!)