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| 2006/9/20-22 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44468 Activity:high |
9/20 The dumbest war:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/20/turner.reut/index.html
\_ Synopsis: Left wing nut billionaire Ted Turner thinks our
righteous war on evil Saddam Hussein is as dumb as the Japanese
bombing of Pearl Harbor and the German invasion of Russia.
\_ The invisible hand thinks you're the nut. --the invisible hand
\_ did you know 47% of the Americans think Pearl Harbor is somewhere
in Japan?
\_ How many of those 47% also voted for GWB, believe in
intelligent design, and that Saddam Hussein shipped all of
the WMD to Syria before we attacked Iraq?
\_ The Japanese are smarter. Most people in Japan know about
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and conveniently don't know about Pearl
Harbor.
\_ err... most people in Japan think China started the WW2
in the fareast and they think they are the victims of the war.
\_ No, they don't. Most Japanese think Japan started WW2 as
retaliation for unfair restrictions imposed on their
imperialist aspirations by the racist goverments of the US
and Europe. The idea that China started WW2 stems from the
South Manchuria Railway incident, when Japanese-sponsored
troops blew up a portion of the railway and blamed it on
the Chinese, then used that incident as an excuse to seize
power in southern Manchuria. Also, most Japanese know about
Pearl Harbor but believe that it was a surprise attack, not
a sneak attack, and that the Japanese ambassador attempted
to declare war before the attack was carried out but was
refused admission to the Oval Office; this is disputed by
evidence brought before the Congressional hearings after
the war. --erikred
\_ hmm... did you just agree with me that most Japanese
think China started the WW2? by the way, they still
think Nanjing massacre was fabricated by the Chinese.
\_ No, I didn't. And no, they don't. They do, however,
think the Nanking massacre has been exagerrated.
\_ I vote for Battle of Mogadishu as the dumbest battle.
\_ As far as cockups go, sure, it's pretty high up there. As far as
dumb battles go, though, the taking of Grenada outranks it.
\_ Grenada? For all the wars and battles throughout history you
chose a minor action on a small nearby island where only a few
dozen rounds were fired as dumber than Mogadishu? Mogadishu
was insanely stupid. How about these for worse: the first
non-attempt to take Faluja(sp), all of WWI, Hitler failing to
defend the right beaches in WWII even after the landings, the
Persian empire getting decimated in a single battle, putting
550+ marines in a barracks in a war zone and giving the gate
guards blanks, Israel's recent non-invasion of Lebanon where
they (like everyone else with a real airforce) made the
mistake of trying to use airpower to win a land war, the
second Intifada where Arafat decided it was better to kill
people than get 95% of what his people wanted, going in to
Korea with ridiculously poorly equiped troops (think hellish
winter with no winter jackets), retreating from Vietnam after
winning the war (Tet offensive was a catastrophic military
failure for the NV but looked great on US TV). Grenada? Get
real.
\_ Cite a non-biased source for your last Vietnam assertion,
please.
\_ I'm feeling lazy today so you get wikipedia instead of
a more hard core source but it says what I said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive
And in the context of "dumber than Mogadishu" I think
launching a multi front offensive along your militarily
superior's entire front and getting butchered falls
under "dumber than Mogadishu". There was no way to
predict a smashing media success in the US that would
lead to political success, nor was that the plan on the
VC/NVA side. No one on the North said, "I'll bet
getting our asses kicked would look great for us on US
TV". -pp
\_ Yeah you had me there until your last Vietnam assertion.
I just don't think anyone wins guerilla wars without
killing everyone.
\_ It's pretty clear the Tet offensive was a
military disaster for the VC. Whether the US
could 'win' or not depends on what the
definition of 'win' is. Certainly, the US could
still maintain a military presence there (a la
Korea) if they really had wanted to. -not PP
\_ yep. the consensus is that the U.S. wins every
tactical engagement and by body count in
particular, but politics in the occupied
country wins the war. For WW2, it was the
complete political capitulation of the Axis
powers. For Gulf War 1, it was just a matter of
kicking out Saddam, and the Kuwait govt just got
back up.
\_ The US didn't lose to the VC. The US lost to
Eddit Adam and his photo. Adam was bribed by
the VC to publish the one-sided photo. The
American public didn't see pictures from the
Massacre at Hue.
\_ See the part of the comment where pp agreed with your
assessment of Mogadishu as a cockup. As for dumb in terms
of why we were there, i.e., what a waste, Grenada beats
Mogadishu.
\_ Grenada was a quickie mob up operation to keep Cuba
from building up and taking over a small nearby,
harmless island otherwise unable to defend itself.
It was fast, it was successful, it wasn't a mess.
Mogadishu was what? Pointless. We had no reason to
be there. It was a chaotic anarchic mess on a country,
there was tv crews standing on the beach filming the
marines amphibious landing(!!!), and the operation
itself (what the movie Blackhawk Down is about) which
left American dead to be dragged through the streets,
although technically successful in that they did
capture the local leaders they were looking for, was
poorly planned, under armed, cowboyish, and ultimately
a total failure. BTW, a large chunk of the country is
now under control of AlQ types. Grenada? For small
and failed operations you should be talking about
destroying aspirin factories and camels with missile
strikes.
\_ Interesting. You seem to have a fixation on Clinton.
Why is that?
\_ If you have nothing to add or can't dispute what
I said then thanks for playing.
\_ Please, what's to dispute? We dropped most of
the Marine Corps on Grenada to disrupt a
poorly executed and ill-advised coup; we
sent the troops to Mogadishu with the aim of
preventing the destabilization of Somalia
(and we blew it, agreed). The hell do the
Clinton strikes on Sudan have to do with
anything apart from your feverish desire to
malign the Dems?
\_ In dispute is that Grenada was in any real
way a screw up. And if you'd been paying
attention, you'd see I've covered a few
thousand years of history on this thread,
not "feverishly maligned" nor "fixated on"
Clinton or the Dems. Re-read the thread
in context and stop looking for trouble
where there isn't any; it's boring. If you
can explain how Clinton/Dems are in any
way responsible for the fall of the ancient
Persian empire or how I made it seem so,
I'll eat my hat.
\_ Grenada was not a screw up. It was,
however, a waste of time and resources.
Also, you're the one who brought up
the Clinton strikes on Sudan, not me.
\_ The thread is about battles dumber
than Mogadishu. Thanks for agreeing
finally that Grenada isn't one of
them. As far as Clinton, yeah I also
brought up 6+ other events all of
which were before Clinton was in power
or even born. Not seeing the feverish
fixation on Clinton. I think you're
just trolling now.
\_ Bay of Pigs and the last 50 years of relations with Cuba were
and are retarded and immoral.
\_ "When Khrushchev at the U.N. took his shoe off and hit podium he was
so mad, but he had a place to let off steam. If the U.N. hadn't been
there, that would have been war right then." What was he referring
to? Thx.
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev
Search page for "shoe" |
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| www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/20/turner.reut/index.html Most Popular Ted Turner: Iraq war among history's 'dumbest' Adjust font size: Decrease font Decrease font Enlarge font Enlarge font NEW YORK (Reuters) -- The US invasion of Iraq was among the "dumbest moves of all time" that ranks with the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and the German invasion of Russia, billionaire philanthropist Ted Turner said Tuesday. The founder of CNN and unabashed internationalist also defended the right of Iran to have nuclear weapons and the effectiveness of the United Nations and, in a jocular mood, advocated banning men from elective office worldwide in a Reuters Newsmaker appearance. Alternately combative and humorous, Turner spoke nine years after his pledge to donate $1 billion to the United Nations over 10 years and on the same day President Bush addressed the UN General Assembly a mile away. The US invasion of Iraq has caused "incalculable damage" that will take 20 years to overcome "if we just act reasonably intelligently." "It will go down in history, it is already being seen in history, as one of the dumbest moves that was ever made by anybody. A couple of others that come to mind were the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and the German invasion of Russia," Turner told the forum. You don't start wars just because you don't like somebody. I wouldn't even start a war with Rupert Murdoch," Turner said, referring to his onetime cable network rival. Often contrarian, Turner called it a "joke" that Bush demanded that Iran abandon any ambitions for nuclear weapons while at the same time hoping to ban all such bombs. We don't say anything about Israel -- they've got 100 of them approximately -- or India or Pakistan or Russia. "Men should be barred from public office for 100 years in every part of the world. It would be a much kinder, gentler, more intelligently run world. The men have had millions of years where we've been running things. In the meantime, the United Nations represents the best hope, Turner said. While the world body is ridiculed as ineffective and irrelevant by its harshest critics and often criticized by its strongest advocates, Turner offered what was then one-third of his net worth to the world body nine years ago. "I am absolutely certain we would not have made it through the Cold War without the UN," Turner said. "When Khrushchev at the UN took his shoe off and hit podium he was so mad, but he had a place to let off steam. If the UN hadn't been there, that would have been war right then." When a questioner from the audience challenged Turner on the United Nations's value, Turner shot back. "The war between Lebanon and Israel and Hizbollah would still be going on if it hadn't been for the UN, and that's only in the last two weeks, Bubba." Thai king blesses coup The army commander who seized Thailand's government Wednesday in a quick, bloodless coup pledged to hold elections by October 2007, and he received a ringin ... |
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive The offensive began spectacularly during celebrations of the Lunar New Year, and sporadic operations associated with the offensive continued into 1969. The Te>'t Offensive can be considered a crushing military defeat for the Communist forces, as neither the Viet Cong nor the North Vietnamese army achieved any of their tactical goals. Furthermore, the operational cost of the offensive was dangerously high, with the Viet Cong essentially crippled by the huge losses inflicted by South Vietnamese and other Allied forces. social revolution which would begin in the countryside and end in a nationalist urban uprising. This strategy had informed an operational doctrine of gradual intensification of ground warfare, and the development of the Viet Cong's capacity for operational warfare. With the local RVN-aligned village elite as their primary enemy in a fundamentally social war, early efforts in the south were aimed at villages and large farms. The intent of this strategy was to swing the rural population to supporting the National Front for Liberation, thereby socially isolating the urban elite, and winning the allegiance of urban leftists and discontents. This form of war produced what amounted to a bloody stalemate where neither side was able to gain any real advantage over the other. The reaction of the rural population was often to flee the countryside for the cities as refugees. The involvement of US ground forces greatly changed the strategy of North Vietnam. Rather than any kind of revolutionary conflict or irregular war, the conflict turned into small-unit battles between regular army units on both sides. Starting in the 1950s, North Vietnam began sending units of its army south. United States Marines became the first American combat troops to land in South Vietnam, adding to the 25,000 US military advisers already in place, and four days later President Johnson announced the number of US troops in Vietnam would be increased from 75,000 to 125,000. The combined forces of US infantry, artillery and air-power inflicted steady losses on the Viet Cong, but as these losses were consistently made up with replacements from North Vietnam, nothing really changed. From the American perspective, the first several years of the war involved an ever greater commitment of forces in the name of stabilizing the situation in Vietnam. The US Military and Defense Department told the public that the war was a matter of destroying the insurgency in the countryside. The military focused on "body counts" as a metric for progress in the destruction of the insurgency. The high level commanders were convinced of their success, and were all too happy to share the opinion with reporters. the war would never be ended due to direct military action, but it would be reduced to such a low level that the ARVN could deal with any remaining problems. By late 1967 the momentum seemed to be with the US Unbeknownst to the leaders in the south, there was a growing body of politicians in the north that shared these views and called for dialog to end the war. This resulted in a massive purge, leading to the arrest and imprisonment of over 200 North Vietnamese officials. The US bombing campaign over North Vietnam had allowed the more extreme elements of the government to both whip up patriotic feeling and to crush any dissent within the ruling party. Gip had long advocated primarily using guerrilla tactics against the US and South Vietnam, whereas Thanh had supported general main force action. Overriding Gip, the North Vietnamese leadership decided that the time was ripe for a major conventional offensive. They believed that the South Vietnamese government and the US presence were so unpopular in the South that a broad-based attack would spark a spontaneous uprising of the South Vietnamese population, which would enable the North to sweep to a quick, decisive victory. South Vietnam to close those regions to American observation. Following this, a second phase of widely dispersed attacks by the Viet Cong directly into the major centers of the country would cause the collapse of the government and would prod the civilians into full-fledged revolt, and with the government overthrown, the Americans and other allied forces would have no choice but to evacuate, leading to phase three attacks by the Viet Cong and PAVN against elements of the isolated foreign forces. The offensive involved simultaneous military action in most of the larger cities in South Vietnam and attacks on major US bases, with particular efforts focused on the cities of Saigon and Hue>'. The Khe Sanh assault drew North Vietnamese forces away from the offensive into the cities, but North Vietnam considered the attack necessary to protect their supply lines to the south. edit ARVN and US readiness In the days immediately preceding the Offensive, the preparedness of both the ARVN and the US military were relatively relaxed. North Vietnam had announced in October that it would observe a seven-day truce from January 27 to February 3, 1968, in honor of the Te>'t holiday, and the South Vietnamese army made plans to allow recreational leave for a large part of its force. US and ARVN military intelligence observed signs of a major military buildup in the months before the Offensive. n Bin Phu2 in the 1950s, which had preceded scheduled negotiations as a means of improving the Communist bargaining position. While military intelligence saw that offensive operations were being planned, it did not detect that the offensive would be national in scale and aimed at cities. Enlarge Map of South Vietnam showing some of the major targets of the Te>'t Offensive. Also shown is Khe Sanh, where the attack predated Te>'t. Fighting began to the south on January 29 as a number of Viet Cong units attacked prematurely in four provincial towns. The rest of the NLF/PAVN attacks began on the night of January 30-1. Rather, they had six primary targets within the city: the headquarters of the ARVN, President Thieu's office, the American Embassy, a Vietnamese Air Base and their naval headquarters, and the National Broadcasting Station. A total of 35 battalions attacked these targets, Many of the troops were undercover Viet Cong who lived and worked in the city. The radio station was considered an important target by the Communists. Ch Minh announcing the liberation of Saigon and calling for a "General Uprising." The building was taken and held for six hours, but they were unable to broadcast as the power had been cut off as soon as the station was attacked. By early February, the Communist high command realized that none of their military objectives were being met, and they halted any further attacks on fortified positions. Sporadic fighting continued in Saigon until March 7 Some sections of the city were left badly damaged by the combat and US retaliatory air and artillery strikes in particular. US Embassy was especially significant in the public's perception of the US military's control over the situation. At 2:45 AM on January 31, Nineteen Viet Cong commandos attacked the embassy. Although VC attacks had been taking place in Saigon for over an hour, the guards at the embassy had not been informed of this and had not been reinforced. The few remaining American guards withdrew into the embassy building and locked the doors. Although the Viet Cong had an ample supply of explosives, they did not press their attack. Both officers in charge of the Viet Cong squad had been killed in the initial assault and the remaining guerrillas milled aimlessly around the grounds. Eventually American reinforcements arrived, and in the morning, six hours after the attack began, MPs retook the embassy compound. With the bodies of the dead Viet Cong still scattered about and amid rubble from the badly damaged embassy building, General Westmoreland gave a press conference inside the compound. He assured the skeptical press that the enemy had never entered "the embassy itself," and spoke of the allies returning to the offensive. Nguyen Van Lem was captured by South Vietnamese national police, who identified him as the captain of a Viet Cong assassination and revenge p... |
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev education as a child and probably only became fully literate in his late twenties or early thirties. He was trained, and worked, as a joiner in various factories and mines. German invasion, in 1941, Khrushchev, as a local party leader, was coordinating the defense of Ukraine, but was dismissed and recalled to Moscow after surrendering Kiev. Nikolai Bulganin and others united under Khrushchev to denounce Beria and remove him from power. With Beria imprisoned awaiting execution (which followed in December), Malenkov was the heir apparent. Khrushchev was not nearly as powerful as he would eventually become even after his promotion. Few of the top members of the Central Committee saw the ambition lurking within him. Anti-Party Group after they failed in a bid to oust him from the party leadership in 1957. In 1958, Khrushchev replaced Bulganin as prime minister and established himself as the undisputed leader of both state and party. edit Khrushchev's personality Khrushchev was regarded by his political enemies in the Soviet Union as boorish, with a reputation for interrupting speakers to insult them. The Politburo accused him once of 'hare-brained scheming' - referring to his erratic policies. He once branded Mao, who was at odds with Khruschev ever since the denunciation of Stalin at the 1956 Congress, an "old boot". In Mandarin, the word "boot" is regularly used to describe a prostitute or immoral woman. Bulgarian counterpart, making several xenophobic comments about the Bulgarian people as well. Khrushchev's blunders were partially the result of his limited formal education. Although intelligent, as his political enemies also admitted after he had defeated them, and certainly cunning, he lacked knowledge and understanding of the world outside of his direct experience and so would often prove easy to manipulate for scientific hucksters that knew how to appeal to his vanity and prejudices. Frederick Boland, the Assembly President (Ireland), that if Mr Khrushchev wished to continue, he would like a translation. At the United Nations two weeks later, in one of the most surreal moments in Cold War history, the premier waved his shoe and banged it on his desk, adding to the lengthening list of antics with which he had been nettling the General Assembly. Filipino delegate had charged the Soviets with employing a double standard, pointing to their domination of Eastern Europe as an example of the very type of colonialism their resolution criticized. Mr Khrushchev thereupon pulled off his right shoe, stood up, brandishing it at the Philippine delegate on the other side of the hall. The enraged Khrushchev accused Mr Sumulong of being "Holuj i stavlennik imperializma" (kholuj i stavlennik imperializma), which was translated as "a jerk, a stooge and a lackey of imperialism". The chaotic scene finally ended when General Assembly President Frederick Boland broke his gavel calling the meeting to order, but not before the image of Khrushchev as a hotheaded buffoon was indelibly etched into America's collective memory. His removal was largely prompted by his erratic and cantankerous behaviour, which was regarded by the Party as a tremendous embarrassment on the international stage. Enlarge Khrushchev sculpture at Nixon Library On the positive side, he was admired for his efficiency and for maintaining an economy which, during the 1950s and 1960s, had growth rates higher than most Western countries, contrasted with the stagnation beginning with his successors. His policies also increased the importance of the consumer, since Khrushchev himself placed more resources in the production of consumer goods and housing instead of heavy industry, precipitating a rapid rise in living standards. De-Stalinization caused a huge impact on young Communists of the day. Khrushchev encouraged more liberal communist leaders to replace hard-line Stalinists throughout the Eastern bloc. He also had very poor diplomatic skills, giving him the reputation of being a rude, uncivilised peasant in the West and as an irresponsible clown in his own country. Russian Orthodox Church, publicly promising that by 1980 "I will show you the last priest!" His methods of administration, although efficient, were also known to be erratic since they threatened to disband a large number of Stalinist-era agencies. He made a dangerous gamble in 1962 over Cuba, which almost made a Third World War inevitable. Agriculture barely kept up with population growth, as bad harvests mixed with good ones, culminating with a disastrous one in 1963 that was triggered by bad weather. All this damaged his prestige after 1962 and was enough for the Central Committee, Khrushchev's critical base for support, to take action against him. Due to the results of his policies, as well as the increasingly regressive attitude of his successors, he became more popular after he gave up power, which led many dissidents to view his era with nostalgia as his successors began discrediting or slowing down his reforms. edit Other information Since he spent much time working in Ukraine, Khrushchev gave off the impression of being Ukrainian. He supported this image by wearing Ukrainian national shirts. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater features Khrushchev shortly before his ousting by Brezhnev, demanding that the United States prove they had nothing to do with a nuclear explosion caused by the game's primary antagonist, Volgin, or he will be forced to take military action against the United States. Volgin is a member of the Brezhnev faction who wants to replace Khrushchev with Brezhnev. |