Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 41119
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2005/12/22-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:41119 Activity:high
12/22   Okay, we know Bush isn't going to be impeached. It's Reagan and the
        Contra arms deal all over again, but with Bush saying he did it instead
        of "I don't know/recall." But is the unauthorized wiretapping of
        American citizens in these times an impeachable offense? Discuss.
        \_ Absolutely.  And I think he _will_ be impeached, but not removed.
           \_ you think a (R) controlled congress is going to impeach him?
              you're totally off your rocker.
              \_ Elections coming up here in 2006, and Repubs just unplugged
                 Grandma. It wouldn't even take a strong wind to swing this.
                 \_ While I share the general sentiment to a degree, I think
                    this is overly optimistic.  Honestly, I doubt 06 will be
                    much affected by the budget cuts.
                    \_ The last time congressional approval rates were this
                       low was 1994.  Granted, D now is _not_ R then, but
                       R's are rightly scared.
                       \_ Well, the GOP is certainly vulnerable right now --
                          a succession of scandals coupled with a general
                          decay of gung-ho support for our involvement in
                          Iraq has opened the door for change (not to mention
                          the bumbling efforts of FEMA during Katrina).  Sadly,
                          as long as the economy is reasonably sound and
                          unemployment doesn't change significantly, there's
                          very little likelihood of any big shift from R to D.
                          It's a pleasant fantasy to imagine the Budget cuts
                          having a massive unintended impact, but I think the
                          reality is that it's not going to have any impact
                          *at all* when all considerations are taken into
                          account.
                          \_ Yep.  If we had a recession, everything would be
                             perfect.
                             \_ Your reading comprehension is lacking.  I said
                                "Sadly, as long as the economy is sound, change
                                will not happen".  It is sad because one with
                                a reasonable ethical viewpoint would hope that
                                the succession of scandals would be sufficient
                                to bring about change without any other
                                external forces.  Alas, this is not the case.
        \_ neither.  complete waste of time.
        \_ Warrantless wiretapping is likely not an impeachable offense b/c
           the Pres. has inherent emergency powers to authorize any means he
           feels are necessary to protect the nation from its enemies in a
           crisis. Consider that Lincoln suspended habeas on his own authority
           despite a strong implication that only Congress had the right to
           do this. If the suspension of habeas in direct violation of separ-
           ation of powers is not impeachable, by no measure can one consider
           warrantless wiretapping impeachable. Unlike your ave. motd poster,
           most Dem. Congressmen and Senators understand that warrantless wire-
           tapping is a common practice in intelligence gathering and they will
           be reluctant to take this tool away.
           Even if BUSHCO's assertion that an emergency is present is deemed
           incorrect, there is a plausible argument that they were mistaken
           and simply overreacted. In light of 9/11, Spain, London, &c. better
           to overreact than underreact is a winning argument.
           \_ It's sad that you believe that.  Unchecked secret power grabs
              are a terrible road to go down.  Not in my country...
              \_ Regardless of whether it is a terrible road to go down, it
                 is not an impeachable offense under Art 2 Sec 4. Given the
                 pressure to act in a crisis, it is not unforeseeable that
                 a Pres. might authorize these means. Given that these means
                 have been SOP for decades, BUSHCO is at most guilty of
                 expanding their use.  Should they have resisted the tempt-
                 ation? Probably, but that doesn't mean it is impeachable.
                 It is our fault as voters that we did not select someone
                 better suited to resist the temptation. Fortunately, this
                 mistake can be corrected in a few years. Consider that the
                 A&S acts were repealed by Jefferson. There is nothing to
                 indicate that the next Pres. will be unwilling to restrict
                 the power that this Pres. has "acquired."
                 \_ "Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil
                     officers of the United States, shall be removed from
                     office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason,
                     bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."
                    High crimes and misdemeanors would certainly cover
                        \_ certainly?  what web site told you that it is
                           "certainly" a "high crime and misdemeanor" to
                           order wiretaps like this?
                           \
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36.html
                           \_ http://tinyurl.com/bzaz4 (findlaw.com,
                              50 USC Ch 36) [ Same as the cornell url,
                              but you don't have to click through ]
                    warrantless wiretaps, especially if the use thereof
                    violates the current federal procedures. Although it is
                    SOP to begin wiretapping before asking for (and, in all
                    but 4 cases, receiving) a warrant to do so, it is
                    illegal to wiretap and NOT ask for a warrant within 72
                    hours; the latter has NOT been SOP for any administration
                    since the procedures were put in place except for this
                    administration. The legal requirement for impeachment
                    has been met; it now depends on the will of the Congress.
                    \_ In your studied constitutional expert legal opinion the
                       requirements for impeachment have been met?  I'm glad
                       we don't need to discuss it further.
                       \_ We could say something equally as fatuous about
                          your comments.  In fact, I will.  Grow a set.
                       \_ It is certainly more serious than lying about a
                          blowjob, which is what brought the last President
                          down. As I said before, impeachment is primarily
                          a political process, not a legal one. If enough
                          Americans think he should be impeached, he will be.
                       \_ You want to discuss this further, bring something
                          more than "No, he won't be impeached!" to the
                          discussion.
                          \_ I was replying to someone who did nothing but
                             rant and make grand sweeping statements and
                             put forth partisan agenda driven opinion as
                             fact.  Excuse me for daring to question the
                             brilliant legal minds on the motd.
                    \_ You misunderstand the argument completely. I agree
                       that there are procedures re wiretapping and that
                       these procedures have been violated.  I even agree
                       that authorizing these wiretaps in violations of
                       the USC is a crime UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
                       These are not normal circumstances. In an emergency
                       the Pres. has inherent powers to take any action
                       that he deems necessary to protect the republic and
                       its citizens.  His inherent power trumps the requi-
                       rements of the USC, thus no crime has been committed.
                       [ I also disagree that this is the first admin. that
                         has explicitly or implicitly authorized wiretaps
                         in violation of the USC; I think that this type of
                         thing has been going on since the start of the Cold
                         War. It has only become more extensive under BUSHCO ]
                       \_ Yes, we know, the John Yoo argument.  It doesn't
                          hold water.  Even under non-normal circumstances
                          checks and balances must have a place.  Otherwise
                          we are not the nation we claim we are.  Are you
                          going to hold your tongue if nationwide elections
                          in 2008 are suspended because "we're in an emergency
                          situation"?
                          \_ If normal checks and balances must have a place
                             during emergencies then why was Lincoln able to
                             suspend Habeas? The constitution strongly implies
                             that only Congress has this power. If violating
                             horizontal separation of powers is not sufficient
                             for impeachment, what make you so sure that some
                             wiretaps in violation of a federal statute (not
                             the constitution) is sufficient?
                             wiretaps in violation of a federal statute is
                             enough?
                             If nat'l elections were to be suspended wouldn't
                             it have made more sense to do so last year when
                             there was the very real possibility that BUSHCO
                             would be sent home?
                             \_ Show me a declaration of war.
                                \_ The Pres. emergency powers are not depen-
                                   dent on a declaration of war. If we use
                                   the habeas clause as a reference, it is
                                   possible to interpret "invasion" as any
                                   attack on American soil, thus confering
                                   authority to act. Note that the habeas
                                   clause does not require a declaration of
                                   war under Art I Sec 8.
                                   \_ ITYM Sec. 9.  Btw, Lincoln's suspension
                                      of habeas was ruled unconstitutional.
                                      \_ That is why the Star Chamber had him
                                         assassinated. No man is above the law!
                                      \_ No I mean Sec 8 (yes habeas clause is
                                         in Art 1 Sec 9, but it does not requ-
                                         ire Congress to declare war pursuant
                                         to its power to do so under Sec 8).
                                         While I agree that in Ex Parte Merry-
                                         man the USSC found Lincoln's actions
                                         to be unconstitutional, Lincoln was
                                         able to ignore that decision and no
                                         habeas relief was granted until after
                                         the war (iirc USSC restored habeas
                                         in Ex Parte Milligan). This suggests
                                         that the President's emergency power
                                         is so extensive that even the USSC
                                         lacks significant power to limit it.
                                         to me that the President's emergency
                                         power is so extensive that even the
                                         USSC lacks the ability to limit it.
                                         If the defiance of the USSC was not
                                         enough to impeach, please explain
                                         to me why ignoring a wire tapping
                                         provision is? [ Note: I do not think
                                         that "perjury" was enough ]
                                         Re Elections: I'm not sure what I
                                         would do. My family lived through
                                         a similar situation in the 70s and
                                         everything worked out fine in the
                                         end (elections/civil rights rest-
                                         ored, &c.) so I might just go
                                         along w/ it.
                                         \_ With "enough to impeach", you
                                            seem to be ignoring the political
                                            dimension.  Impeachment, as you
                                            well know, isn't triggered by
                                            the act of the impeached.  It's
                                            triggered by the political machine
                                            of the Congress.  "Enough to
                                            impeach" is determined by the house
                                            when it votes on articles.  "Enough
                                            to remove" is determined by the
                                            senate when it votes to convict.
                                            Lincoln's actions, whether or not
                                            a sufficient violation, did not
                                            trigger impeachment because his
                                            case was strong enough for Congress
                                            not to bring it.  In fact, Congress
                                            passed the Habeas Corpus Act in 1863
                                            which voiced their approval of his
                                            act.  Here and now, Bush is sitting
                                            at a point comparable to some time
                                            before ex parte milligan.  To claim
                                            before ex parte merryman.  To claim
                                            Bush has an inherent right because
                                            of Lincoln is claiming stare decisis
                                            in congressional acts.  i.e. that
                                            today's congress will do what
                                            lincoln's did.  It's optimistic at
                                            best to hope that congress will
                                            be so tied to precedent, especially
                                            when the situations are so
                                            drastically different.
                       \_ Right, and since we're fighting perpetual war
                          with Eurasia, Big Brother can do whatever he
                          feels is best for us.
                          \_ While there are some parallels between 1984
                             and the present situtation, I personally
                             find that the Alien and Sedition acts and
                             their repeal is a far better parallel.
           \_ Isn't warrantless wiretapping what brought Nixon down?
              \_ Only indirectly. It was Nixon using his office to stop the
                 wiretapping investigation that led to his resignation. In
                 this case, there is no cover-up, just the wiretapping.
                 \_ Bush is already trying to obstruct the investigation in
                    this case, but admittedly nothing has come out to the
                    degree as did in the Haldeman case. But it is probably
                    only a matter of time.
                    \- maybe there will be another SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE
                       when ALBERTO is ordered to fire FITZGERALD and resigns
                       the HARRIET is ordered to fire him and resigns and then
                       JOHNYOO fires him and becomes AG/SG/CF in one!
2025/07/08 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/8     

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