12/22 Okay, we know Bush isn't going to be impeached. It's Reagan and the
Contra arms deal all over again, but with Bush saying he did it instead
of "I don't know/recall." But is the unauthorized wiretapping of
American citizens in these times an impeachable offense? Discuss.
\_ Absolutely. And I think he _will_ be impeached, but not removed.
\_ you think a (R) controlled congress is going to impeach him?
you're totally off your rocker.
\_ Elections coming up here in 2006, and Repubs just unplugged
Grandma. It wouldn't even take a strong wind to swing this.
\_ While I share the general sentiment to a degree, I think
this is overly optimistic. Honestly, I doubt 06 will be
much affected by the budget cuts.
\_ The last time congressional approval rates were this
low was 1994. Granted, D now is _not_ R then, but
R's are rightly scared.
\_ Well, the GOP is certainly vulnerable right now --
a succession of scandals coupled with a general
decay of gung-ho support for our involvement in
Iraq has opened the door for change (not to mention
the bumbling efforts of FEMA during Katrina). Sadly,
as long as the economy is reasonably sound and
unemployment doesn't change significantly, there's
very little likelihood of any big shift from R to D.
It's a pleasant fantasy to imagine the Budget cuts
having a massive unintended impact, but I think the
reality is that it's not going to have any impact
*at all* when all considerations are taken into
account.
\_ Yep. If we had a recession, everything would be
perfect.
\_ Your reading comprehension is lacking. I said
"Sadly, as long as the economy is sound, change
will not happen". It is sad because one with
a reasonable ethical viewpoint would hope that
the succession of scandals would be sufficient
to bring about change without any other
external forces. Alas, this is not the case.
\_ neither. complete waste of time.
\_ Warrantless wiretapping is likely not an impeachable offense b/c
the Pres. has inherent emergency powers to authorize any means he
feels are necessary to protect the nation from its enemies in a
crisis. Consider that Lincoln suspended habeas on his own authority
despite a strong implication that only Congress had the right to
do this. If the suspension of habeas in direct violation of separ-
ation of powers is not impeachable, by no measure can one consider
warrantless wiretapping impeachable. Unlike your ave. motd poster,
most Dem. Congressmen and Senators understand that warrantless wire-
tapping is a common practice in intelligence gathering and they will
be reluctant to take this tool away.
Even if BUSHCO's assertion that an emergency is present is deemed
incorrect, there is a plausible argument that they were mistaken
and simply overreacted. In light of 9/11, Spain, London, &c. better
to overreact than underreact is a winning argument.
\_ It's sad that you believe that. Unchecked secret power grabs
are a terrible road to go down. Not in my country...
\_ Regardless of whether it is a terrible road to go down, it
is not an impeachable offense under Art 2 Sec 4. Given the
pressure to act in a crisis, it is not unforeseeable that
a Pres. might authorize these means. Given that these means
have been SOP for decades, BUSHCO is at most guilty of
expanding their use. Should they have resisted the tempt-
ation? Probably, but that doesn't mean it is impeachable.
It is our fault as voters that we did not select someone
better suited to resist the temptation. Fortunately, this
mistake can be corrected in a few years. Consider that the
A&S acts were repealed by Jefferson. There is nothing to
indicate that the next Pres. will be unwilling to restrict
the power that this Pres. has "acquired."
\_ "Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil
officers of the United States, shall be removed from
office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason,
bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."
High crimes and misdemeanors would certainly cover
\_ certainly? what web site told you that it is
"certainly" a "high crime and misdemeanor" to
order wiretaps like this?
\
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36.html
\_ http://tinyurl.com/bzaz4 (findlaw.com,
50 USC Ch 36) [ Same as the cornell url,
but you don't have to click through ]
warrantless wiretaps, especially if the use thereof
violates the current federal procedures. Although it is
SOP to begin wiretapping before asking for (and, in all
but 4 cases, receiving) a warrant to do so, it is
illegal to wiretap and NOT ask for a warrant within 72
hours; the latter has NOT been SOP for any administration
since the procedures were put in place except for this
administration. The legal requirement for impeachment
has been met; it now depends on the will of the Congress.
\_ In your studied constitutional expert legal opinion the
requirements for impeachment have been met? I'm glad
we don't need to discuss it further.
\_ We could say something equally as fatuous about
your comments. In fact, I will. Grow a set.
\_ It is certainly more serious than lying about a
blowjob, which is what brought the last President
down. As I said before, impeachment is primarily
a political process, not a legal one. If enough
Americans think he should be impeached, he will be.
\_ You want to discuss this further, bring something
more than "No, he won't be impeached!" to the
discussion.
\_ I was replying to someone who did nothing but
rant and make grand sweeping statements and
put forth partisan agenda driven opinion as
fact. Excuse me for daring to question the
brilliant legal minds on the motd.
\_ You misunderstand the argument completely. I agree
that there are procedures re wiretapping and that
these procedures have been violated. I even agree
that authorizing these wiretaps in violations of
the USC is a crime UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
These are not normal circumstances. In an emergency
the Pres. has inherent powers to take any action
that he deems necessary to protect the republic and
its citizens. His inherent power trumps the requi-
rements of the USC, thus no crime has been committed.
[ I also disagree that this is the first admin. that
has explicitly or implicitly authorized wiretaps
in violation of the USC; I think that this type of
thing has been going on since the start of the Cold
War. It has only become more extensive under BUSHCO ]
\_ Yes, we know, the John Yoo argument. It doesn't
hold water. Even under non-normal circumstances
checks and balances must have a place. Otherwise
we are not the nation we claim we are. Are you
going to hold your tongue if nationwide elections
in 2008 are suspended because "we're in an emergency
situation"?
\_ If normal checks and balances must have a place
during emergencies then why was Lincoln able to
suspend Habeas? The constitution strongly implies
that only Congress has this power. If violating
horizontal separation of powers is not sufficient
for impeachment, what make you so sure that some
wiretaps in violation of a federal statute (not
the constitution) is sufficient?
wiretaps in violation of a federal statute is
enough?
If nat'l elections were to be suspended wouldn't
it have made more sense to do so last year when
there was the very real possibility that BUSHCO
would be sent home?
\_ Show me a declaration of war.
\_ The Pres. emergency powers are not depen-
dent on a declaration of war. If we use
the habeas clause as a reference, it is
possible to interpret "invasion" as any
attack on American soil, thus confering
authority to act. Note that the habeas
clause does not require a declaration of
war under Art I Sec 8.
\_ ITYM Sec. 9. Btw, Lincoln's suspension
of habeas was ruled unconstitutional.
\_ That is why the Star Chamber had him
assassinated. No man is above the law!
\_ No I mean Sec 8 (yes habeas clause is
in Art 1 Sec 9, but it does not requ-
ire Congress to declare war pursuant
to its power to do so under Sec 8).
While I agree that in Ex Parte Merry-
man the USSC found Lincoln's actions
to be unconstitutional, Lincoln was
able to ignore that decision and no
habeas relief was granted until after
the war (iirc USSC restored habeas
in Ex Parte Milligan). This suggests
that the President's emergency power
is so extensive that even the USSC
lacks significant power to limit it.
to me that the President's emergency
power is so extensive that even the
USSC lacks the ability to limit it.
If the defiance of the USSC was not
enough to impeach, please explain
to me why ignoring a wire tapping
provision is? [ Note: I do not think
that "perjury" was enough ]
Re Elections: I'm not sure what I
would do. My family lived through
a similar situation in the 70s and
everything worked out fine in the
end (elections/civil rights rest-
ored, &c.) so I might just go
along w/ it.
\_ With "enough to impeach", you
seem to be ignoring the political
dimension. Impeachment, as you
well know, isn't triggered by
the act of the impeached. It's
triggered by the political machine
of the Congress. "Enough to
impeach" is determined by the house
when it votes on articles. "Enough
to remove" is determined by the
senate when it votes to convict.
Lincoln's actions, whether or not
a sufficient violation, did not
trigger impeachment because his
case was strong enough for Congress
not to bring it. In fact, Congress
passed the Habeas Corpus Act in 1863
which voiced their approval of his
act. Here and now, Bush is sitting
at a point comparable to some time
before ex parte milligan. To claim
before ex parte merryman. To claim
Bush has an inherent right because
of Lincoln is claiming stare decisis
in congressional acts. i.e. that
today's congress will do what
lincoln's did. It's optimistic at
best to hope that congress will
be so tied to precedent, especially
when the situations are so
drastically different.
\_ Right, and since we're fighting perpetual war
with Eurasia, Big Brother can do whatever he
feels is best for us.
\_ While there are some parallels between 1984
and the present situtation, I personally
find that the Alien and Sedition acts and
their repeal is a far better parallel.
\_ Isn't warrantless wiretapping what brought Nixon down?
\_ Only indirectly. It was Nixon using his office to stop the
wiretapping investigation that led to his resignation. In
this case, there is no cover-up, just the wiretapping.
\_ Bush is already trying to obstruct the investigation in
this case, but admittedly nothing has come out to the
degree as did in the Haldeman case. But it is probably
only a matter of time.
\- maybe there will be another SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE
when ALBERTO is ordered to fire FITZGERALD and resigns
the HARRIET is ordered to fire him and resigns and then
JOHNYOO fires him and becomes AG/SG/CF in one! |
http://csua.com/feed/