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| 7/9 |
| 2005/6/10-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38077 Activity:kinda low |
6/10 Frustrated U.S. soldiers question the Iraqis' courage, discipline and
dedication and wonder whether they will ever be able to fight on their
own, much less reach the U.S. military's goal of operating
independently by the fall.
"I know the party line. You know, the Department of Defense, the U.S.
Army, five-star generals, four-star generals, President Bush, Donald
Rumsfeld: The Iraqis will be ready in whatever time period," said 1st
Lt. Kenrick Cato, 34, of Long Island, N.Y., the executive officer of
McGovern's company, who sold his share in a database firm to join the
military full time after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. "But from the
ground, I can say with certainty they won't be ready before I leave.
And I know I'll be back in Iraq, probably in three or four years. And
I don't think they'll be ready then." http://csua.org/u/cbi (Post)
\_ No one except liberals read and believe in the Post.
Nevertheless, this is a pretty interesting article. Too bad it'll
just get dismissed by GWB, Cheney, Fox News, and NeoRepublicans
because it doesn't show what they want to hear.
\_ Shrug, I'll tell my O'Reilly-watching little brother who's
coming back from Basic Training in Ft. Benning. If he doesn't
believe it, he'll find out soon -- or maybe he'll tell me the
opposite six months from now, if he's still alive.
\_ Why tell him? I mean, if he goes, he'll find out
himself. It's a little late for him to do anything about
it now. Why depress him before hand?
\_ What would you do if it were your brother? Don't tell me
"isn't it obvious". Sleep on it.
"isn't it obvious". Sleep on it before coming back.
\_ If I couldn't bear to be supportive, at least I
wouldn't be a jerk about it. If I understand the
situation correctly, he's already in. That means
he CAN'T LEAVE. He's already promised. Even if
you succeeded in convincing him that it's a bad
idea, he still has to go. All your bugging him
everytime you seem is gonna do is make him dislike
YOU. Not to meantion, bad morale is a big troop
killer. I don't know why you're so interested in
being right you have to try to turn it into a
self-fulfilling prophecy. Or maybe i misunderstood
the situation.
\_ I asked about you, not me. It's obvious you
misunderstood that part.
\_ Huh? Maybe so, I sure don't know what you
mean by this. To paraphrase above, "If it
were my brother, I wouldn't keep bugging
him." I then went on to explain why.
\_ So, you wouldn't tell him that troops on
the ground think it will take longer than
anticipated to train the Iraqi army, maybe
as long as 4 years?
You would let him "find out himself" if he
goes?
Yes or no, please.
goes? Yes or no, please.
\_ Unless it comes up in casual
conversation, I probably wouldn't. No.
Basically, I can't see any value in
constantly rehashing political battles
like this. Especially ones that can
only have negative effect. If you
bring it up, it's just going to look
like you can't stand not getting in
the last word.
\_ Please also note that nowhere in my post
\_ Please note that nowhere in my post
did I say I would "convince him it's a
bad idea" or indicate that I made the
assumption that he could get out. Nor
did I indicate I would be "rehashing
political battles". The rest of your
statements about me rest on these
assumptions.
Obviously, you did not sleep on it like
I suggested, or you wouldn't have made
all these mistaken assumptions.
\_ Well, I've read your previous
posts. It's pretty obvious you
he listens to O'Reilly, and you
try to convince him he's wrong.
What other value could starting
conversations about Iraq with him
have? Please enlighten me.
\_ Sorry, but the one thing I won't
be doing is "try to convince him
he's wrong".
Instead of making these
assumptions about what I think,
it's a lot easier to just ask:
"Are you still trying to convince
him he's wrong?"
Then I would say, "Wrong
about what? What are you talking
about? He can't get out, he's
already signed up. It doesn't
matter if Iraq is 'wrong' or not,
when it applies to the question of
his living through it."
Had you just asked before assuming,
you would have saved a lot of
motd posts.
And then maybe you might realize
what my number one goal in talking
with him about Iraq is, which
I'll let you figure out if you
haven't already. Hint: It's not
trying to "convince him he's
wrong". Hint 2: What I tell him
about the original topic in this
thread will only be a tiny part of
what I have been telling him since
he signed up.
\_ You're saying you're trying
to "prepare him before he
goes?" Since I have no way
of knowing most of what
you've been "telling him
since he signed up."
\_ Why don't you just say:
"Oops, I made all these
assumptions about what you
think which turned out to
be wrong."
\_ Because now I'm
curious what you WERE
trying to say.
\_ Okay, then mostly I
tell him to get behind
cover when he's getting
shot at, don't be a
hero - live to fight
another day, and to pay
attention to his
training, in addition
to, don't be surprised
if the war takes 3+
more years.
Oh, I also told him
what SNAFU stands for
and its origins.
He was pretty surprised
to hear from my other
brother that he might
need to buy his own
body armor.
\_ Then I admit my
mistake. Sorry.
\_ He was pretty
surprised to hear
from my other
brother that he
might need to buy
his own body armor.
\_ [you really didn't want to read all that did you?]
\_ anything short of a fully Islamic fundamentalist government will
fail in Iraq
\_ Shia or Sunni? Their fundamentalists are like oil and water. |
| 7/9 |
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| csua.org/u/cbi -> www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/09/AR2005060902245.html All RSS Feeds Building Iraq's Army: Mission Improbable Project in North Reveals Deep Divide Between US and Iraqi Forces By Anthony Shadid and Steve Fainaru Washington Post Foreign Service Friday, June 10, 2005; Page A01 BAIJI, Iraq -- An hour before dawn, the sky still clouded by a dust storm , the soldiers of the Iraqi army's Charlie Company began their mission w ith a ballad to ousted president Saddam Hussein. "We have lived in humil iation since you left," one sang in Arabic, out of earshot of his US c ounterparts. But the Iraqi soldiers had no clue where they were going. They shrugged t heir shoulders when asked what they would do. The US military had bill ed the mission as pivotal in the Iraqis' progress as a fighting force bu t had kept the destination and objectives secret out of fear the Iraqis would leak the information to insurgents. Amir Omar, a 19-year-old Iraqi corporal, patrols in Baiji, a desolate oil town where Amir Omar, a 19-year-old Iraqi corporal, patrols in Baij i, a desolate oil town where "the people have been destroyed." The reconstruction of Iraq's security forces is the prerequisite for an A merican withdrawal from Iraq. But as the Bush administration extols the continuing progress of the new Iraqi army, the project in Baiji, a desol ate oil town at a strategic crossroads in northern Iraq, demonstrates th e immense challenges of building an army from scratch in the middle of a bloody insurgency. Charlie Company disintegrated once after its commander was killed by a ca r bomb in December. And members of the unit were threatening to quit en masse this week over complaints that ranged from dismal living condition s to insurgent threats. Across a vast cultural divide, language is just one impediment. Young Iraqi soldiers, ill-equipped and drawn from a dise nchanted Sunni Arab minority, say they are not even sure what they are f ighting for. They complain bitterly that their American mentors don't re spect them. In fact, the Americans don't: Frustrated US soldiers question the Iraqi s' courage, discipline and dedication and wonder whether they will ever be able to fight on their own, much less reach the US military's goal of operating independently by the fall. You know, the Department of Defense, the US Arm y, five-star generals, four-star generals, President Bush, Donald Rumsfe ld: The Iraqis will be ready in whatever time period," said 1st Lt. Kenr ick Cato, 34, of Long Island, NY, the executive officer of McGovern's company, who sold his share in a database firm to join the military full time after the Sept. "But from the ground, I can say with certainty they won't be ready before I leave. And I know I'll be b ack in Iraq, probably in three or four years. we don't want it," said Amar Mana, 27, an Iraqi private whose forehead was grazed by a bullet during an in surgent attack in November. The way the situation is, we wouldn't be ready to take responsibility for a thousand years." Joseph J Taluto, commander of the 42nd Infantry Division, whic h oversees an area of north-central Iraq that includes Baiji and is the size of West Virginia, called the Iraqi forces "improved and improving." He acknowledged that the Iraqis suffered from a lack of equipment and m anpower but predicted that, at least in his area of operation, the US military would meet its goal of having battalion-level units operating i ndependently by the fall. "I can tell you, making assessments, I think we're on target," he said in an interview. US officers said the Iraqis had been particularly instrumental in obtai ning intelligence that led to the detention of several suspected insurge nt leaders in the region. They said it was unfair to evaluate the Iraqi forces by US standards. "We're not trying to make the 82nd Airborne here," Taluto said. |