12/19 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051220/ap_on_go_co/congress_high_tech_visas
Bye bye high-tech VISA, HELLLLLLOOOO outsourcing! Hello CS majors
who are still in school, it's not too late to change your major.
If you already graduated, it's not too late to go into other
useful things, like real-estate. Fuck CS. Fuck tech.
\_ Let me ask you this question. Do you have problem with GM workers
with a high school degree making $60-80k a year with full benefit?
You commands a higher wage than China and India, you need to think
about what makes you worth your pay. If you can't compete, then
find something else to do and stop blaming everyone.
\_ Um. High-tech VISAs are a form of outsourcing.
\_ My preference would be to allow more visas especially for US
educated foreign students, but to slow down or
educated foreign students, but at the same time, to slow down or
stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas. This will
attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical mass of
talented workers here, and also force companies to invest in
their US based workers. US companies should be given incentive
not to outsource but to adapt and move up the technology food
chain, especially in critical industries. Outsourcing means
companies do well in the short term while US workers lose their
jobs. In the long term, however, it means transfer and loss of
critical technology to countries like China and India.
Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly have short term views.
China, OTOH, plan for the long term, and almost always request
technology and knowledge transfer before agreeing to a business
partnership with foreign companies. -!op
partnership with foreign companies. The way it's going, US
will have fewer and fewer engineers and even scientists, while
the outsource recipient countries will have more and more, and
they will be doing more and more interesting work, while there
will be less and less interest for students in the US, be they
American or foreign students, to do science and engineering, and
less incentive for those who did, to stay here. -!op
stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas. This
will attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical
mass of talented workers here, and also force companies to
invest in their US based workers. US companies should be
given incentive not to outsource but to adapt and move up the
technology food chain, especially in critical industries.
Outsourcing means companies do well in the short term while US
workers lose their jobs. In the long term, however, it means
transfer and loss of critical technology to countries like
China and India. Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly
have short term views. China, OTOH, plan for the long term,
and almost always request technology and knowledge transfer
before agreeing to a business partnership with foreign
companies. The way it's going, US will have fewer and fewer
engineers and even scientists, while the outsource recipient
countries will have more and more, and they will be doing more
and more interesting work, while there will be less and less
interest for students in the US, be they American or foreign
students, to do science and engineering, and less incentive
for those who did, to stay here. -!op
\- it may not be a matter of short term views but elite interest
diverging from rank and file interest.
\_ Are you seriously going to claim that it's in the longterm
best interest of owners of American companies to have
America lose its competitive edge in science and
engineering? That's ridiculous. I would argue that
American science is so good for the world that anything
that hurts American science hurts the whole world at all
economic levels. This is not a zero sum game.
\- i'm not suggesting it is 0 sum. i simply think
if you have say $10m today, you are not especially
affected by say the dollar weakening, poor public
schools, pensions failing, social security
having problems etc. i.e. people who "get their own"
early, can route around a lot of problems in the
future. rather than thinking only temporally, you might
consider thing "spatially" ... meaning you stand where
you sit. more formally some of the incentive problems
are those that come from principal-agent issues.
i think part of the issue is corporate governance
not just globalization. globalization in mfgring has
been going on for decades. i also think factors like
amaerica's 0 agg private saving rate are going to
play a role in shaping the future as well as
"globalization".
\- oh and i think your discussion has some status quo
biases. like when you say "american science declining
hurts everybody". well you are a poor person
exposed to say cholera and malaria and poor
nutrition and no clean water supply, advances in
ass-related plastic surgery or botox or the
erectile dysfunction treatment meds arent
your priorities. yes i relalize a lot of important
research behind the Green Revolution or techniques
for purifying water with UV and such have come out of
the US, but it's also true relatively frivolous stuff
is often vastly better rewarded than stuff that kills
poor people. again compare the spending on ED drugs
[i think there were something like a dozen in the
pipeline [npi] in the last couple of decades, but
almost no work on common orphan diseases. much of
the economic logic behind free trade and free
movement of the factors of production and capital
also apply to free movement of labor, but nobody
is seriously proposing something like that to max
overall efficiency. if anything the recent EU
negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US pushing IP
negotiations over the CAP and the US pushing IP
issues in the WTO negotiations show how far
people will go to protect their parochial interest
and ignore all the ideology when it doesnt go
their way. just out of curiosity, do you drive
and american [sic] car? do you have an american
TV ... oh never mind ... an american stereo?
TV ... oh never mind ... and american stereo?
where are your shoes made? do you support
negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US
pushing IP issues in the WTO negotiations show how
far people will go to protect their parochial
interest and ignore all the ideology when it
doesnt go their way. just out of curiosity, do you
drive and american [sic] car? do you have an
american TV ... oh never mind ... an american
stereo? where are your shoes made? do you support
sever penalites for those employing illegal
aliens, or should we just keep deporting the
persons themselves?
\_ Who says that science and technology will decline in the US?
Why wouldn't they increase as Americans spend more effort on
research and diving into more technically challenging roles
to become more competitive than an outsourced counterpart?
to become more competitve than an outsourced counterpart?
\_ Because the competitive advantage from the discoveries
you have made, that is the fruits of your labour, will
be knowledge transferred to your counterpart in China
and India, and they are 10x cheaper than you, and just
as smart as you. With globalization, there is now no
incentive for companies to build up a technology gap
between US and foreign countries, there is no longer
much incentive to invest in technology development in
between US and foreign countries, there is less and
less incentive to invest in technology development in
the US. Also, China and India are constantly
encouraging US companies to invest in R&D over there
with all kinds of tax incentives and business partner-
with all kinds of tax breaks and business partner-
ship lures. Is this bad for the world? I don't know.
What I do know, is that it's good for China and India,
but bad for the US. Anything to do with research and
that is "technical challenging" is not hard to
but bad for the US. Anything to do with research or
that is "technically challenging" is not hard to
outsource. All you need is top local talent, of which
India and China has plenty, a technology transfer so
they get up to speed, which US companies are happy to do,
and lots of money for the research facilities, which
US companies are happy to invest.
\_ Says who? All evidence I've seen so far shows that
outsourced work, while cheaper, is significantly
inferior too. Outsourced code sucks. Speedy
communication still remains an issue. If you're good
at what you do, then I maintain that you're not
expendible and your job won't be shipped overseas. If
that isn't the case, then it's time for you to improve
your skills and make yourself more marketable.
\_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one choose
other than business administration or engineering in order to have
the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily available as
in CS.
\_ I am in 3G wireless infrastructure, and my
employer is systematically moving the whole
division to China. It doesn't matter if I am
good or bad. Even if I am good, I would be
good or bad. Either way, I would be
forced to either move to a different field,
move to a different part of the country, stay
move to a different part of the country, or stay
on and do peripheral type work.
As for foreign coders, it is the same as over
here, some are idiots, some are good, but
they are improving fast. And of course,
3G wireless has lots of military applications,
pretty kool for China.
pretty kool for China to have a large pool of
engineers with experience in this area.
\_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one
choose other than business administration or engineering in order
to have the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily
available as in CS.
\_ Anything that gets you into law school or medical school.
\- self-regulating indistries are in better positions to
protect themselves. there was a large influx of indian and
russian doctors in the 70s i believe and i assume the AMA
either ahead of time or in response took steps to keep them
from competing. typically they do so by insisiting on
certifications [we are here to protect you] and then defining
the area of practice very broadly. see e.g. the nolo v texas
case. my understanding is dental hyginists must work for a
dentist and cannot operate a $19.95 only-teeth-cleaning
service. i believe there are regulations on opticians as
well. civil engineers, ME, software engineers either missed
the boat or were never in a position to similarly dictate
competition terms.
\_ Actually, engineering is probably a good choice if you want
to go to law school. IP lawyers (patent and copyright) are
generally paid more and have better working conditions that
the pol sci majors.
\_ I can feel nothing but pity for people chosing majors
based ONLY on how much they're gonna make. It's gonna take 5
to 10 possibly best years of your life spent on learning
something that you're not passionate about before he/she can
even start earning money. Of course, most of them are probably
too dumb to make it into and through the medical or law school
or a rigorous CS program like at UCB anyways but I pity both
kinds.
\_ Law school doesn't require being smart.
\_ Just learn to say "would you like fries with that?" like all th
PolySci/English majors have been doing for decades.
\_ Actually, I say "Have you rtfm?" these days. -English major |
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