Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 41081
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2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41081 Activity:high
12/19   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051220/ap_on_go_co/congress_high_tech_visas
        Bye bye high-tech VISA, HELLLLLLOOOO outsourcing! Hello CS majors
        who are still in school, it's not too late to change your major.
        If you already graduated, it's not too late to go into other
        useful things, like real-estate. Fuck CS. Fuck tech.
        \_ Let me ask you this question. Do you have problem with GM workers
           with a high school degree making $60-80k a year with full benefit?
           You commands a higher wage than China and India, you need to think
           about what makes you worth your pay.  If you can't compete, then
           find something else to do and stop blaming everyone.
        \_ Um. High-tech VISAs are a form of outsourcing.
           \_ My preference would be to allow more visas especially for US
              educated foreign students, but to slow down or
              educated foreign students, but at the same time, to slow down or
              stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas.  This will
              attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical mass of
              talented workers here, and also force companies to invest in
              their US based workers.  US  companies should be given incentive
              not to outsource but to adapt and move up the technology food
              chain, especially in critical industries.  Outsourcing means
              companies do well in the short term while US workers lose their
              jobs.  In the long term, however, it means transfer and loss of
              critical technology to countries like China and India.
              Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly have short term views.
              China, OTOH, plan for the long term, and almost always request
              technology and knowledge transfer before agreeing to a business
              partnership with foreign companies.            -!op
              partnership with foreign companies.  The way it's going, US
              will have fewer and fewer engineers and even scientists, while
              the outsource recipient countries will have more and more, and
              they will be doing more and more interesting work, while there
              will be less and less interest for students in the US, be they
              American or foreign students, to do science and engineering, and
              less incentive for those who did, to stay here.          -!op
              stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas.  This
              will attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical
              mass of talented workers here, and also force companies to
              invest in their US based workers.  US companies should be
              given incentive not to outsource but to adapt and move up the
              technology food chain, especially in critical industries.
              Outsourcing means companies do well in the short term while US
              workers lose their jobs.  In the long term, however, it means
              transfer and loss of critical technology to countries like
              China and India. Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly
              have short term views. China, OTOH, plan for the long term,
              and almost always request technology and knowledge transfer
              before agreeing to a business partnership with foreign
              companies.  The way it's going, US will have fewer and fewer
              engineers and even scientists, while the outsource recipient
              countries will have more and more, and they will be doing more
              and more interesting work, while there will be less and less
              interest for students in the US, be they American or foreign
              students, to do science and engineering, and less incentive
              for those who did, to stay here.  -!op
              \- it may not be a matter of short term views but elite interest
                 diverging from rank and file interest.
                 \_ Are you seriously going to claim that it's in the longterm
                    best interest of owners of American companies to have
                    America lose its competitive edge in science and
                    engineering?  That's ridiculous.  I would argue that
                    American science is so good for the world that anything
                    that hurts American science hurts the whole world at all
                    economic levels.  This is not a zero sum game.
                    \- i'm not suggesting it is 0 sum. i simply think
                       if you have say $10m today, you are not especially
                       affected by say the dollar weakening, poor public
                       schools, pensions failing, social security
                       having problems etc. i.e. people who "get their own"
                       early, can route around a lot of problems in the
                       future. rather than thinking only temporally, you might
                       consider thing "spatially" ... meaning you stand where
                       you sit. more formally some of the incentive problems
                       are those that come from principal-agent issues.
                       i think part of the issue is corporate governance
                       not just globalization. globalization in mfgring has
                       been going on for decades. i also think factors like
                       amaerica's 0 agg private saving rate are going to
                       play a role in shaping the future as well as
                       "globalization".
                       \- oh and i think your discussion has some status quo
                          biases. like when you say "american science declining
                          hurts everybody". well you are a poor person
                          exposed to say cholera and malaria and poor
                          nutrition and no clean water supply, advances in
                          ass-related plastic surgery or botox or the
                          erectile dysfunction treatment meds arent
                          your priorities. yes i relalize a lot of important
                          research behind the Green Revolution or techniques
                          for purifying water with UV and such have come out of
                          the US, but it's also true relatively frivolous stuff
                          is often vastly better rewarded than stuff that kills
                          poor people. again compare the spending on ED drugs
                          [i think there were something like a dozen in the
                          pipeline [npi] in the last couple of decades, but
                          almost no work on common orphan diseases. much of
                          the economic logic behind free trade and free
                          movement of the factors of production and capital
                          also apply to free movement of labor, but nobody
                          is seriously proposing something like that to max
                          overall efficiency. if anything the recent EU
                          negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US pushing IP
                          negotiations over the CAP and the US pushing IP
                          issues in the WTO negotiations show how far
                          people will go to protect their parochial interest
                          and ignore all the ideology when it doesnt go
                          their way. just out of curiosity, do you drive
                          and american [sic] car? do you have an american
                          TV ... oh never mind ... an american stereo?
                          TV ... oh never mind ... and american stereo?
                          where are your shoes made? do you support
                          negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US
                          pushing IP issues in the WTO negotiations show how
                          far people will go to protect their parochial
                          interest and ignore all the ideology when it
                          doesnt go their way. just out of curiosity, do you
                          drive and american [sic] car? do you have an
                          american TV ... oh never mind ... an american
                          stereo?  where are your shoes made? do you support
                          sever penalites for those employing illegal
                          aliens, or should we just keep deporting the
                          persons themselves?
              \_ Who says that science and technology will decline in the US?
                 Why wouldn't they increase as Americans spend more effort on
                 research and diving into more technically challenging roles
                 to become more competitive than an outsourced counterpart?
                 to become more competitve than an outsourced counterpart?
                 \_ Because the competitive advantage from the discoveries
                    you have made, that is the fruits of your labour, will
                    be knowledge transferred to your counterpart in China
                    and India, and they are 10x cheaper than you, and just
                    as smart as you.  With globalization, there is now no
                    incentive for companies to build up a technology gap
                    between US and foreign countries, there is no longer
                    much incentive to invest in technology development in
                    between US and foreign countries, there is less and
                    less incentive to invest in technology development in
                    the US.  Also, China and India are constantly
                    encouraging US companies to invest in R&D over there
                    with all kinds of tax incentives and business partner-
                    with all kinds of tax breaks and business partner-
                    ship lures.  Is this bad for the world?  I don't know.
                    What I do know, is that it's good for China and India,
                    but bad for the US.  Anything to do with research and
                    that is "technical challenging" is not hard to
                    but bad for the US.  Anything to do with research or
                    that is "technically challenging" is not hard to
                    outsource.  All you need is top local talent, of which
                    India and China has plenty, a technology transfer so
                    they get up to speed, which US companies are happy to do,
                    and lots of money for the research facilities, which
                    US companies are happy to invest.
                    \_ Says who?  All evidence I've seen so far shows that
                       outsourced work, while cheaper, is significantly
                       inferior too.  Outsourced code sucks.  Speedy
                       communication still remains an issue.  If you're good
                       at what you do, then I maintain that you're not
                       expendible and your job won't be shipped overseas.  If
                       that isn't the case, then it's time for you to improve
                       your skills and make yourself more marketable.
        \_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one choose
           other than business administration or engineering in order to have
           the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily available as
           in CS.
                       \_ I am in 3G wireless infrastructure, and my
                          employer is systematically moving the whole
                          division to China.  It doesn't matter if I am
                          good or bad.  Even if I am good, I would be
                          good or bad.  Either way, I would be
                          forced to either move to a different field,
                          move to a different part of the country, stay
                          move to a different part of the country, or stay
                          on and do peripheral type work.
                          As for foreign coders, it is the same as over
                          here, some are idiots, some are good, but
                          they are improving fast.  And of course,
                          3G wireless has lots of military applications,
                          pretty kool for China.
                          pretty kool for China to have a large pool of
                          engineers with experience in this area.
        \_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one
           choose other than business administration or engineering in order
           to have the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily
           available as in CS.
           \_ Anything that gets you into law school or medical school.
              \- self-regulating indistries are in better positions to
                 protect themselves. there was a large influx of indian and
                 russian doctors in the 70s i believe and i assume the AMA
                 either ahead of time or in response took steps to keep them
                 from competing. typically they do so by insisiting on
                 certifications [we are here to protect you] and then defining
                 the area of practice very broadly. see e.g. the nolo v texas
                 case. my understanding is dental hyginists must work for a
                 dentist and cannot operate a $19.95 only-teeth-cleaning
                 service. i believe there are regulations on opticians as
                 well. civil engineers, ME, software engineers either missed
                 the boat or were never in a position to similarly dictate
                 competition terms.
              \_ Actually, engineering is probably a good choice if you want
                 to go to law school. IP lawyers (patent and copyright) are
                 generally paid more and have better working conditions that
                 the pol sci majors.
              \_ I can feel nothing but pity for people chosing majors
                 based ONLY on how much they're gonna make. It's gonna take 5
                 to 10 possibly best years of your life spent on learning
                 something that you're not passionate about before he/she can
                 even start earning money. Of course, most of them are probably
                 too dumb to make it into and through the medical or law school
                 or a rigorous CS program like at UCB anyways but I pity both
                 kinds.
                 \_ Law school doesn't require being smart.
        \_ Just learn to say "would you like fries with that?" like all th
           PolySci/English majors have been doing for decades.
           \_ Actually, I say "Have you rtfm?" these days. -English major
2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

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news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051220/ap_on_go_co/congress_high_tech_visas
AP High-Tech Visa Plan Dropped From Bill By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer Mon Dec 19, 7:58 PM ET WASHINGTON - A Senate-passed measure to add more visas for foreign worker s in high-tech and specialty fields was dropped from a budget bill that passed the House early Monday, disappointing high-tech and manufacturing firms in search of skilled workers. The Senate plan would have allowed 30,000 more of the popular H1-B visas each year, and increased fees for those visas to help trim the budget de ficit. Congress capped the six-year H-1B visas at 65,000 per year in 200 4, and that cap has already been reached for the 2006 fiscal year that b egan Oct. Critics contend the visas give foreigners high-level jobs that should go to American workers, and the plan was opposed by some House Republicans as a backdoor way to boost immigration. "What's distressing about this, and what the Senate clearly understood, is there is a real global competition for this work and for these emplo yees, and the question is not whether the work is going to get done, it' s where is the work going to get done. We've missed a real opportunity b y not ensuring the work would be done here." House and Senate negotiators also dropped a plan to increase fees on anot her kind of visa, the L-1, which companies use to transfer workers they already employ in foreign countries to the United States. The boost to visa availability and fees was meant to achieve budget savin gs in programs under jurisdiction of the congressional judiciary committ ees. Instead of using visas, the final version of the bill saves money i n judiciary programs by increasing fees for filing lawsuits and filing f or bankruptcy. The informati on contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewr itten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associ ated Press.