Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:December:19 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2005/12/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41069 Activity:moderate
12/18   Dear Chinese people. In what context do you consider yourselves
        to be Han-ren, Tan-ren, Manchu, Hwa-ren, and finally Zho-Quo-ren?
        \_ Huh?  I consider myself an American.
           \_ You're most likely an ignorant, apathetic, and
              pathetic ABC banana. And no, I'm not a FOB, thank you.
              \_ bad troll.
              \_ I prefer the term Twinkie.
              \_ If you don't even consider yourself an American, then how
                 can you expect other people to treat you like one?
                 \_ Exactly!  I've been wanting to say this to my uncles and
                    aunts and in-laws.  But I dare not since they are senior
                    to me.  BTW I am a 16-yr FOB and I'm not a citizen yet.
                    \_ OTOH, please don't mis-characterize all first
                       generation immigrants to be like your uncles and aunts.
        \_ Most people consider themselves Han, eventhough a lot of them are
           not aware of their minority ancestory.  Certain Last names are
           popular with minorities and thus, if you have that last name, there
           is a good chance that somewhere in history you were once a minority.
           Example: Jin, Bao,  Mu (Mu Rong), Ma (Mohammad).  Due to 2000
           years of mixing, the notion of being a pure Han has become a very
           silly idea.  That is why we have the term "Zhong Guo Ren."
           In Taiwan, pro-independent minded people demonized the word
           "Zhong Guo."  They want to replace it with "Hua," which is even
           more silly because even though the Han culture originalted from
           the tribe of Hua 3000-4000 years ago, Han has constitute a lot of
           minor tribes other than "Hua."
           So, in a way, being a Chinese has more to do with the Han-dominated
           culture than what runs in your blood.  This notio of "define race by
           culture than color of skin" only start to surface in the Western
           world sometime toward the end of 20th century.
        \_ i guess no one would think about this kind of stuff unless
           he or she is a purist.  as in hk, i think 99% would tell you
           they are hongkonger or chinese.
        \_ The young Chinese pianist Lang Lang is a Manchu.  In fact he's a
           distant descendant of the royal family of the Qin Dynasty.
           \_ so is the actress/singer wang2 fei1.  I have a acquaintance
              whose last name is wan2 yan2, and falls under the yellow
              banner of the eight manchu banners.
              \_ ohh my gosh, minority exists... so what?
                 \_ it's often kool to be minority these days.
2005/12/19-20 [Uncategorized] UID:41070 Activity:nil
12/19   In UrbanDead, do you have to be a Zombie standing up to be
        revivied?  If you're HP goes to 0, you cant be revivied until
        your stand up, right?
        \_ right
2005/12/19-21 [Recreation/Interesting, Recreation/Humor] UID:41071 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
12/19   the video at
        http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2005/12/sushiya_etiquet.html
        is totally awesome. - danh
        \_ http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6905089586228877019
           (better net) --dbushong
        \_ Kikkoman sauce: http://yoga.at.infoseek.co.jp/flash/kikkomaso.swf
        \_ Kikkoman sauce: http://yoga.at.infoseek.co.jp/flash/kikkomaso.swf
2005/12/19-20 [Consumer/Audio] UID:41072 Activity:nil
12/19   The new iPod update finally has a category for Composers.
        It's about time. I got sick and tired of scrolling through
        Sonata and Opus numbers.
2005/12/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:41073 Activity:moderate
12/19   http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm
        No abuses of the patriot act my ass.
        \_ No talk of abusing your ass!
        \_ I'm pretty anti-US PATRIOT act, but that's pretty damn mild.  They
           "visited" him.  Oh noes!  They didn't detain him, arrest him,
           confiscate his stuff, or anything like that that I can see.  It
           sounded like "you a terrorist?  ok, just checking, our lame computer
           algorithm said you might be.  be good, ttyl."
           \_ "The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism
               for Professor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism,
               filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address,
               phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited
               at his parents' home in New Bedford by two agents of the
               Department of Homeland Security, the professors said."
              It doesn't scare the hell out of you that he got a visit from
              DoHS for checking out a copy Mao's Little Red Book? What would
              scare you, a 4am door-knockdown and unlawful detention?
              \_ This should piss off conservatives since it's such a sensless
                 waste of taxpayer money.  Of course that would be if any of
                 them actually believed in anything but power.
              \_ I agree.  I can't believe that first they ARE monitoring and
                 second that they would visit him?  What exactly was the
                 purpose of the visit?  To check if he is a terrorist?  How is
                 that not a violation of the kid's civil rights (undue search
                 and siezure?).
                 How long before it turns into secret police and arrests? -!pp
                 \_ That's unreasonable search and seizure, and asking him a
                    few questions is neither a search nor a seizure. Also,
                    the 4th mostly only applies to searches of your home;
                    they didn't search his home did they?
                    This doesn't scare me one bit. The gov. has been doing
                    this sort of thing for decades. Better they monitor
                    everything, than they not monitor. If you don't like
                    monitoring, then don't do things that will be flagged
                    by the filters.
                    \_ Man, I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.
                       What causes their filters to flag you? If you're
                       serious, I seriously hope you get visited for something
                       you consider innocuous. They say a moderate is a
                       conservative with an illness in the family or a
                       liberal who's been mugged; maybe a good Q&A session will
                       cure you.
                       \_ I expect to be visited every single day, so
                          it won't bother me at all if and when they do
                          visit. In fact, I expect to be incarcerated
                          for extended periods w/o being charged or
                          tried. I expected this even before 9/11. I
                          live here in full knowledge of the possible
                          drawbacks b/c I think there is no other place
                          in the world that is even this good. Yes, the
                          const. says that this sort of thing shouldn't
                          happen, but no piece of paper can stand in
                          the way of society.
                          \_ So you've accepted that you live in a police
                             state.  I'm happy for you but I'm not willing
                             to throw out what makes this country great.
                             Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has something
                             to hide.  That's why freedom matters.
                             to hide even if it isn't that big of a deal.
                             That's why freedom matters.
                             \_ I guess the differnece between us is that
                             \_ I guess the difference between us is that
                                you think there is something left to throw
                                out, and I think that is is already gone
                                out, and I think that it is already gone
                                and can never be regained w/o giving up
                                all of the benefits of science/technology.
                                I would like the words of the BoR to mean
                                something substantial, but I accept that
                                the very nature of civilization prevents
                                this.
                                the very nature of modern civilization
                                prevents this.
                                \_ you're a moron.  -tom
                                   \_ Thank you.
                                   \_ You always add so much to the motd.  Keep
                                      up the good work!
                    \_ Yes the government obviously has a large interest in
                       monitoring what I read/think.  We wouldn't want any
                       dangerous opinions getting around.  Sarcasm aside,
                       using a terrorist threat to completely destroy our
                       civil liberties is worse than the occasional terrorist
                       attack.  I would rather loose 10k people a year to
                                                \_ "lose".  if you "loosed"
                                                   that many people each year
                                                   to terrorism there'd be a
                                                   helluva lot of terrorists
                                                   running around loose.
                       terrorism rather than deprive 300 million people of
                       freedom.
                       \_ I don't think terrorism will destroy our civil
                          liberties, b/c I think they were lost at the
                          start of the cold war. I also do not believe
                          that these liberties can be effectively regained
                          in a technological society.
                    \_ "If you don't like monitoring, then don't do things
                        that will be flagged by the filters." <- This is
                        hilarious! So, if the filters include "Harry Potter"
                        books, and you happen to be a fan, you have to
                        abstain reading those books in fear of being
                        "monitored" and "visited"? What a load of crap.
                    this sort of thing for decades. Who cares? You don't
                    wan't to be monitored, don't do things that will cause
                    their filters to flag you.
                        \_ You can argue about how the world OUGHT
                           to work or you can accept the reality of
                           how it does work and get on w/ your life.
                           The price of retrieving any piece of info
                           is the fact that the gov may ask you about
                           it. If you are not willing to pay that price,
                           don't obtain the information.
                           \_ Or I can stop replying to trolls.
           \_ This was my first thought.  However, the abuse is not in the
              visiting, it's in the broad net cast by the listening.  Consider
              that they correlated a travel history with an interlibrary loan
              of "The Little Red Book".  Unless the man has some previous
              terrorist ties, this looks a lot like abuse to me. -emarkp
        \_ Possibly a hoax. See
           http://www.boingboing.net/2005/12/18/dhs_agents_visit_stu.html
           \_ Updated update.  The reporter stands by the story and is trying
              to get the student to come forward.  Same URL.
              \_ Cool! Keep the updates coming! -pp
              \_ If the kid is smart, he'll go about his life and not help make
                 some reporter win a prize.
2005/12/19-20 [Consumer/CellPhone, Recreation/Media] UID:41074 Activity:high
12/19   http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20051217-074635-6362r
        So theaters want to allow cell phone blocking in theaters.  Here's a
        better idea: throw the people who talk on their cell phones in
        theaters out.  And allow responsible cell phone owners to receive
        emergency calls.
        \_ Wow -- you are the troll master!  I bow before your trollish
           expertise!  I've seldom seen so much traffic generated with such an
           innocuous post.
           \_ Sadly, I was serious, not trolling.
        \_ I think throwing someone out of a movie theater when they're not
           willing to give up their $10-15 is likely to be far more disruptive
           than a typical phone call.
           \_ Huh?  What does that even mean?
              \_ how do you throw them out from the middle of a packed theater?
           \_ I think when calls are being blocked signs should be
              required saying so. I've been in several stores where they
              are obviously blocked and could've lost important calls. If
              they block signals they should be obligated to say so.
              \_ Sure.  That seems pretty reasonable.
                 \_ No it doesn't.  I want to receive emergency calls.  I set
                    my phone to silent when I go to the movies, and I want to
                    receive emergency calls.
                    \_ Don't go to those theatres that block calls then. No
                       one is forcing you to patronize those establishments.
                       \_ Well, yes that's the point.  If they don't want my
                          business, I guess they won't get it.
                          \_ If they want mine, they'll block your calls.  Your
                             emergency is my disturbance.  I paid to be there
                             to see a movie, not hear your conversation.  If
                             you are so important you can't be out of touch for
                             2 hours, don't go to the movies.  Question:  are
                             these "emergency calls" from work?  No one's
                             work is that important.  If you're a brain surgeon
                             you can afford a nice home theatre.  If you're
                             some techie, they should hire more people and get
                             an oncall rotation.
                             \_ What if it's the babysitter calling you to
                                let you know the kid's in an accident?
                                \_ the babysitter should know where you
                                   are.  At least this was how it was
                                   before cell phones.
                                   \_ I'm confused.  Are you saying that there
                                      are some circumstances (babysitter/
                                      accidental kid) where it's ok to interrupt
                                      a public event with a cell phone call?
                                      Or that since the babysitter should know
                                      the number of the venue, it's never ok?
                                      I can imagine it could be difficult to
                                      find a movie theatre employee to
                                      communicate an emergency if cell is
                                      blocked.  Also, what happens if you make
                                      an unscheduled stop in a cell-blocking
                                      venue, or if you don't realize the venue
                                      is cell-blocking?
                                      \_ There was life before cell phones.
                                         If you make the decision to watch a
                                         movie you should be able to be
                                         incommunicado for that time.
                                         \_ There was also life before fire.
                                            Are you saying that there is no
                                            circumstance under which you would
                                            consider acceptible to interrupt a
                                            public venue with a cell phone call?
                                            \_ Give me an example. Whatever it
                                               is probably won't be helped by
                                               someone being notified in their
                                               movie, or else someone didn't
                                               plan properly.
                                               \_ Movie theatre, babysitter,
                                                  accidental child.  Let's even
                                                  say accident serious enough
                                                  for ambulance and hospital
                                                  emergency room.  Movie
                                                  theatre number leads to
                                                  voicemail (at best) or just
                                                  infomercial (at worst).  Is
                                                  it ok to call the cell
                                                  directly then?
                                                  \_ I thought "accidental
                                                     children" are what you
                                                     MAKE at the [drive in]
                                                     movie theater.
                                                  \_ How would it help? Sure,
                                                     leave a message in their
                                                     cell voicemail. I don't
                                                     care if people call the
                                                     cell, I care if they
                                                     answer it. I'm just saying
                                                     blocking it wouldn't be
                                                     a big deal. Honestly in
                                                     that situation calling
                                                     the parent RIGHT NOW would
                                                     probably not even matter.
                                                     Parent will go OMG and
                                                     race over to hospital etc,
                                                     who cares. I don't know
                                                     why I'm discussing this
                                                     though because I don't
                                                     even care about this
                                                     subject. Damn you motd!
                                                     \_ If it were your child,
                                                        would you want to take
                                                        the call immediately,
                                                        or would a message be
                                                        good enough?  If you
                                                        have trouble imagining
                                                        a child, what if a
                                                        parent/sibling/other
                                                        loved one had an
                                                        accident?  Would a
                                                        message be good enough
                                                        or would you want the
                                                        call?  Don't we all have
                                                        children or other loved
                                                        ones?  You might find
                                                        the question difficult
                                                        because your position
                                                        that no responsible
                                                        would want to take a
                                                        cell call in a theatre
                                                        is untenable.  What
                                                        if you have a stroke,
                                                        and you need emergency
                                                        medical help?  Do you
                                                        want to wait for someone
                                                        to find a land line or
                                                        to find the theatre
                                                        staff?  Or would you
                                                        want someone to call
                                                        911 on a cell?
                                                           If you're this  _/
                                                           neurotic about it,
                                                           then either don't
                                                           go to the movies or
                                                           find a theater that
                                                           doesn't block (if
                                                           it should come to
                                                           that).  Making the
                                                           rest of the theater
                                                           suffer rude morons
                                                           because of your
                                                           hangups is stupid.
                                     Of course they'd WANT the call, that _/
                                     is beside the point. They would have
                                     the choice not to go to the theater.
                                     How are you going to call while you
                                     are having a stroke? Just yell help.
                                     There should be plenty of other ways
                                     to get help.
                                     \_ Ob I said "want someone to call".  Ob
                                        I also said "do you want to wait..."
                                        You realize you'r grasping because your
                                        position is not defendable.
                                        \_ Ob you kept adding to your post
                                           and I kept merging my reply. You
                                           realize you're stupid.
                                           \_ You realize that accidents and
                                              medical emergencies are by
                                              definition not likely to be
                                              predictable.  You're still
                                              grasping because your position
                                              is still not defendable.
                                              \_ This reply is not relevant.
                                                 Non-cell-phone communication
                                                 is sufficient. QED. (I suppose
                                                 you never fly because your
                                                 precious cell phones have to
                                                 be turned off.)
                                                 \_ Quite the contrary.  This
                                                    directly addresses your
                                                    repeated claim that "they
                                                    would have the choice not
                                                    to go".  If they knew they
                                                    were slated for an
                                                    emergency, then they would
                                                    have a choice.  But
                                                    accidents and emergencies
                                                    are by definition not
                                                    predictable.  So you asked
                                                    for a scenario, and I've
                                                    given it.  Are you saying
                                                    that even under the 2
                                                    scenarioes I've described
                                                    (accident to loved one and
                                                    stroke), a cell phone call
                                                    in the theatre is still
                                                    not acceptable?
                                                    \_ As a patron that doesn't
                                                       give a shit about your
                                                       problems, yes.  I'm
                                                       there to spend my $10
                                                       and have a good time,
                                                       not listen to every
                                                       doofus in the theater
                                                       dealing with their
                                                       'emergencies'.
                                                       \_ You mean you will be
                                                          more annoyed than
                                                          sympathetic if some-
                                                          one in the theatre
                                                          has a stroke?
                                                          \_ I don't see that
                                                             as likely enough
                                                             to take seriously.
                                                    \_ That's exactly what I
                                                       am saying, yes. Well,
                                                       to be more precise, the
                                                       possible benefit is
                                                       outweighed by the
                                                       negatives.
                                                       \_ OK.  And I am sure
                                                          everyone agrees with
                                                          you.  Let's just
                                                          pray that you and
                                                          yours are not
                                                          accident prone.
                                                          \_ I bet > 90% of the
                                                             people in the
                                                             theater agree that
                                                             your emergencies
                                                             are annoying.
                                                      \_ Do you never travel to
                                                         anywhere without cell
                                                         phone coverage?
                                                         \_ Often.  But in those
                                                            cases there is
                                                            always someone
                                                            (airline, hotel,
                                                            office, etc.) who
                                                            will be responsible
                                                            for messages.
                                                            \_ so you never
                                               like go hiking in a national
                                               park, or go biking or rafting?
                                            Right because if the world isn't _/
                                            stopped and you notified, then
                                            your loved ones would die. How
                                            else are you gonna know to put on
                                            your supersuit and fly into orbit
                                            to divert the rogue asteroid?
                                            \_ You're saying because I couldn't
                                               instantenously fly home from
                                               Europe (let's say), I shouldn't
                                               want to drive across town to
                                               a hospital?
                                               \_ You'll do it when you find
                                                  out. Chill.
                                                  \_ And if the health of a
                                                     loved one is at stake,
                                                     would you want to go
                                                     immediately or wait for
                                                     the movie to be over?
                                                     \_ Not everything revolves
                                                        around what you want.
                                                        \_ No, I am asking you.
                                                           What would *you*
                                                           want?  And we're
                                                           all "you", since
                                                           all of us have loved
                                                           ones.
                                                           want?
                                            I wouldn't know, _/
                                            seeing as how my
                                            cell was off, so
                                            I'd wait for the
                                            movie to be over. What is your job?
                                            Do you micromanage everything and
                                            never delegate any responsibility?
                                                              \_ I asked what
                                                                 you would
                                                                 *want* to be
                                                                 able to do, not
                                                                 what you might
                                                                 be able to do.
                                                                 Why is this
                                                                 such a
                                                                 difficult
                                                                 question to
                                                                 answer?  And
                                                                 I notice that
                                                                 you keep try-
                                                                 ing to this a
                                                                 professional
                                                                 responsiblity
                                                                 question,
                                                                 while I keep
                                                                 trying to ask
                                                                 questions about
                                                                 family and
                                                                 loved ones. Why
                                                                 try so hard to
                                                                 dodge a simple
                                                                 question?  If
                                                                 it were your
                                                                 loved one who
                                                                 had an acci-
                                                                 dent, when do
                                                                 you *want* to
                                                                 be notified?
                                                                 [tick tock]
                                                                 Still no
                                                                 answer?  Tsk
                                                                 tsk.  Scared
                                                                 of answering
                                                                 the question,
                                                                 no?  In any
                                                                 case, I have
                                                                 a meeting I
                                                                 have to take,
                                                                 so you're off
                                                                 the hook.
                                                         Would you *want* to _/
                                                         get paid $20000/yr
                                                         for no reason by
                                                         the government?
                                Quite honestly, I wouldn't want to be paid _/
                                $20k by the government.  I make plenty on
                                my own, and I am sure there are others who
                                need the money more.  To answer your question
                                generally, the government does in fact give
                                out money, and there are processes set up
                                to determine if your have governmentally-
                                approved need to qualify for the money.
                                                         You don't understand
                                                         the context of the
                                                         question. It's an
                                                         either/or thing. Would
                                                         I want to know? yes.
                                                         I also want not to be
                                                         bothered by phones.
                                                         I don't arrange my
                                                         life such that being
                                                         on instant's notice is
                                                         important, and when it
                                                         is I don't go to thtrs
                                You keep saying that you are able to arrange _/
                                your life such that you don't have emergencies.
                                You seem to not understand that by definition
                                you cannot predict when an emergency will
                                occur.  So when an emergency occurs (when
                                your child is hospitalized, to use the current
                                example), you are willing to wait until you
                                are out of the theatre to be notified.  Can
                                you predict when your child will be in an
                                accident and require medical attention?
                                You seem to claim you can, and you can
                                therefore arrange your life around that event.
                                I tend to believe you can never predict when
                                an accident will happen, and therefore
                                arranging to be available for one is
                                impossible.  But your position is clear, and
                                your claims are consistent.  (Though to be quite
                                honest I don't believe in your claim one whit
                                when an actual emergency does accur.  YOu'll
                                want that phone call and scramble out the
                                theatre like everyone else).
                                impossible.
                                \_ now you're putting words in my mouth. just
                                   forget it. look, *I* am not the one who
                                   will adminster medical attention, comprende?
                                                     \_ you can always hire
                                                        a part-time personal
                                                        secretary (kind of
                                                        like a baby sitter)
                                                        to stay outside the
                                                        theatre with a cell
                                                        phone in case there's
                                                        an emergency.  I mean
                                                        isn't your child's
                                                        life more important
                                                        than the $40 per hour
                                                        cost of hiring a
                                                        personal cell phone
                                                        answering messenger?
                                                        In fact, I don't think
                                                        you should even go out
                                                        to watch a movie.  It's
                                                        mere entertainment.
                                                        what if some drunk
                                                        driver hit your car
                                                        and kill you.  Your kids
                                                        would be left without
                                                        a parent.  Would you
                                                        want your kids to lose
                                                        a parent because of
                                                        your selfish desire
                                                        to watch a movie?!
                                                        Also, why are you
                                                        carrying a cell phone?
                                                        Didn't you know that
                                                        many people believe
                                                        that they cause tumors?
                                                        Do you want to die of
                                                        cancer and leave your
                                                        kids without a parent?!
                                                        You motherfucking selfish
                                                        bastard!  Please answer
                                                        the simple choice
                                                        questions above.  If
                                                        you can't, please STFU!
                                                              movie to be over.
                               \_ You're an idiot.  Just because medical
                                  emergencies are unpredictable doesn't mean
                                  you can't prepare for the worst.  Stay home
                                  and let other theater-goers be, okay?
                             \_ I didn't say I wanted to have a conversation in
                                a theater.  My phone is silent when I go to the
                                movies.  If it vibrates, I'll leave the theater
                                to answer it.  Pay attention kid.
                                \_ I agree.  Like it or not there ARE people
                                   who use the cell phone infrastructure to
                                   do emergency preparedness, and this is
                                   something the government wants.  Cell
                                   phones are quite good at fullfilling
                                   these tasks while allowing freedom of
                                   movement.  What will happen when a cell
                                   phone jammer blocks a call from someone
                                   say at a cafe right next to a theater?
                                   \_ Oh fuck!  Good point!  You might have to
                                      go OUTSIDE and make the call!  Oh woe,
                                      woooooe!
                                   \_ Hell, what if you have a stroke while
                                      you're watching a movie?  What additional
                                      damage will your body suffer while you're
                                      trying to find a land line if cell phones
                                      are blocked?
        \_ I've got an easier solution: kick out anyone who makes noise in the
           theater.  Really, which is worse:
           a) someone whose phone is on vibrate, answers it, then TALKS on it
           b) someone whose phone rings, but they quickly silence it
           c) screaming kid
           d) non-stop yakkers
           See my point?
           \_ a) hit them with a bat, b) boot to the head for having it on in
              the first place, c) hit their parents with a bat, d) hit both of
              them with a bat.
              \_ You know.. that's not the solution to everything.  What would
                 you do if someone threw a ball at you?  Huh?
              \_ CSUA bat uber alles!
              \_ The kid should be hit with a small bat so it will learn.
        \_ My personal opinion is that if you block cell phone signals, then
           you also need to not allow people to bring infants into the theater.
           Afterall, if a cell phone rings, most people can turn it off within
           seconds.  Not so easy with a baby.  I think that in the future,
           maybe they can have a system that will automatically turn everyone's
           cell phone to silent mode if they are in the theater.  Restricting
           the signal might be the best solution in some ways, but that's
           unfortunate.  People should just have the courtesy not to have
           a conversation (phone or to the person next to them) during a
           movie.
           \- i actually would be perfectly happy with the disruption of a
              movie to see the spectacle of somebody thrown out. in fact if
              that were a likely possibility, i would go to theathers so
              that were a likely possibility, i would go to theathers to
              see that and would feel disappointed if it didnt happen. in fact
              i think if it happened 5 times, that would be fine too. i dunno
              where marginal returns become negative. i realize this will
              never happen in amercica tho. i also wish a strong norm would
              evolve about how late you can save seats in a crowded theater.
              the problem of somebody tall sitting in front of you at the last
              min doesnt seem solvable.
              minute doesnt seem solvable.
2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Religion] UID:41075 Activity:nil
12/19   This hadn't been foremost in my mind recently, so I'd forgotten
        about it, but this article reminded me of some of the things
        to be angry about. (The Strange Case of Chaplain Yee)
        http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18550
        \- not to be confused with the Celebrated Case of Judge Dee
2005/12/19-21 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:41076 Activity:nil
12/19   Have other people been getting spam with paragraph snippets from the
        'Bourne Ultimatum' in them?  It's very bizarre (I only recognized it
        because I recently re-read the book... which makes it very
        disturbing?)
        \_ what makes that disturbing? do you think they're watching you?
        \_ I got some with snippets from Aesop's Fables. Someone's ripping
           off ebooks and such.
        \_ No, it's just a method to get pass the spam filters. I've seen
           ones with Tom Sawyer, etc. ripped off in the past.
2005/12/19 [Uncategorized] UID:41077 Activity:nil
12/19   Bend over, Bitch!  (SFW)
        http://www.larrytt.com/celebrities_playing_tt/bill_hillary_clinton.jpg
2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41078 Activity:moderate
12/19   Bush approval rating at 47%
        http://abcnews.go.com/International/PollVault/story?id=1421748
        \_ Bush approval rating unchanged at 41%
           http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/19/bush.poll/index.html
           \_ I guess the +/- of these polls sucks.
        \_ Bush approval rating unchanged at 41%
           http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/19/bush.poll/index.html
           \_ I guess the +/- of these polls sucks.
        \_ So when is the impeachment?  Where is Motd Poll Guy?  We haven't
           had an official update in weeks.
           \_ He's been a lot more contrite lately and in fact the Iraq
              election was pretty calm. The number of suicide bombing
              have gone done drastically in the past few months and
              things are in fact improving. I don't like Bush but I'm
              glad to see things starting to improve. Who knows, maybe
              we'll have a lot of troop reduction by next year. One can
              only hope so.
              \_ "The number of suicide bombing have gone down drastically"?
                 I thought it was:  More attacks, less areas.
                 \_ Only limited data points, but 23 suicide bombings in
                    11/05, 50+ in 10/05, ~35 in 8/05, 70 in 5/05.  So it is
                    true that the number dropped drastically in 11/05, and
                    that drop may be part of a trend.  But the article doesn't
                    provide enough information to be certain.  The number of
                    car bombings are also lower (from 130 in 2/05 to 68 in
                    car bombings is also lower (from 130 in 2/05 to 68 in
                    11/05), but again the article doesn't provide enough
                    information to know if that's a trend or an aberration.
                    In general, I again find it discouraging how *little*
                    useful information is provided by news sources.
                    http://csua.org/u/edg
                    \_ Isn't there supposed to be a quarterly report to
                       Congress measuring progress?
                       Oh goodie, I answered my own question, it's the first
                       google hit for "congressional report iraq progress".
                       I see, the report is only up to October.
2005/12/19-21 [Uncategorized] UID:41079 Activity:nil
12/19   Do you ever hit on chicks that are with their mom or dad?
        (um, not talking about teenagers here...)
        \_ If they're not teens, they're not chicks.
        \_ You're talking about little kids?  Eww.
           \_ He's talking about birds.
                \_ Store on Main Street in HMB that sells various farming
                   sundries has a sign: "The best place in town to pick up
                   chicks"
        \_ No.  I'd hit on the moms instead.
2005/12/19-20 [Uncategorized] UID:41080 Activity:nil
12/19   [800 line thread deleted]
        \- moved to bottom.
2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:41081 Activity:high
12/19   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051220/ap_on_go_co/congress_high_tech_visas
        Bye bye high-tech VISA, HELLLLLLOOOO outsourcing! Hello CS majors
        who are still in school, it's not too late to change your major.
        If you already graduated, it's not too late to go into other
        useful things, like real-estate. Fuck CS. Fuck tech.
        \_ Let me ask you this question. Do you have problem with GM workers
           with a high school degree making $60-80k a year with full benefit?
           You commands a higher wage than China and India, you need to think
           about what makes you worth your pay.  If you can't compete, then
           find something else to do and stop blaming everyone.
        \_ Um. High-tech VISAs are a form of outsourcing.
           \_ My preference would be to allow more visas especially for US
              educated foreign students, but to slow down or
              educated foreign students, but at the same time, to slow down or
              stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas.  This will
              attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical mass of
              talented workers here, and also force companies to invest in
              their US based workers.  US  companies should be given incentive
              not to outsource but to adapt and move up the technology food
              chain, especially in critical industries.  Outsourcing means
              companies do well in the short term while US workers lose their
              jobs.  In the long term, however, it means transfer and loss of
              critical technology to countries like China and India.
              Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly have short term views.
              China, OTOH, plan for the long term, and almost always request
              technology and knowledge transfer before agreeing to a business
              partnership with foreign companies.            -!op
              partnership with foreign companies.  The way it's going, US
              will have fewer and fewer engineers and even scientists, while
              the outsource recipient countries will have more and more, and
              they will be doing more and more interesting work, while there
              will be less and less interest for students in the US, be they
              American or foreign students, to do science and engineering, and
              less incentive for those who did, to stay here.          -!op
              stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas.  This
              will attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical
              mass of talented workers here, and also force companies to
              invest in their US based workers.  US companies should be
              given incentive not to outsource but to adapt and move up the
              technology food chain, especially in critical industries.
              Outsourcing means companies do well in the short term while US
              workers lose their jobs.  In the long term, however, it means
              transfer and loss of critical technology to countries like
              China and India. Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly
              have short term views. China, OTOH, plan for the long term,
              and almost always request technology and knowledge transfer
              before agreeing to a business partnership with foreign
              companies.  The way it's going, US will have fewer and fewer
              engineers and even scientists, while the outsource recipient
              countries will have more and more, and they will be doing more
              and more interesting work, while there will be less and less
              interest for students in the US, be they American or foreign
              students, to do science and engineering, and less incentive
              for those who did, to stay here.  -!op
              \- it may not be a matter of short term views but elite interest
                 diverging from rank and file interest.
                 \_ Are you seriously going to claim that it's in the longterm
                    best interest of owners of American companies to have
                    America lose its competitive edge in science and
                    engineering?  That's ridiculous.  I would argue that
                    American science is so good for the world that anything
                    that hurts American science hurts the whole world at all
                    economic levels.  This is not a zero sum game.
                    \- i'm not suggesting it is 0 sum. i simply think
                       if you have say $10m today, you are not especially
                       affected by say the dollar weakening, poor public
                       schools, pensions failing, social security
                       having problems etc. i.e. people who "get their own"
                       early, can route around a lot of problems in the
                       future. rather than thinking only temporally, you might
                       consider thing "spatially" ... meaning you stand where
                       you sit. more formally some of the incentive problems
                       are those that come from principal-agent issues.
                       i think part of the issue is corporate governance
                       not just globalization. globalization in mfgring has
                       been going on for decades. i also think factors like
                       amaerica's 0 agg private saving rate are going to
                       play a role in shaping the future as well as
                       "globalization".
                       \- oh and i think your discussion has some status quo
                          biases. like when you say "american science declining
                          hurts everybody". well you are a poor person
                          exposed to say cholera and malaria and poor
                          nutrition and no clean water supply, advances in
                          ass-related plastic surgery or botox or the
                          erectile dysfunction treatment meds arent
                          your priorities. yes i relalize a lot of important
                          research behind the Green Revolution or techniques
                          for purifying water with UV and such have come out of
                          the US, but it's also true relatively frivolous stuff
                          is often vastly better rewarded than stuff that kills
                          poor people. again compare the spending on ED drugs
                          [i think there were something like a dozen in the
                          pipeline [npi] in the last couple of decades, but
                          almost no work on common orphan diseases. much of
                          the economic logic behind free trade and free
                          movement of the factors of production and capital
                          also apply to free movement of labor, but nobody
                          is seriously proposing something like that to max
                          overall efficiency. if anything the recent EU
                          negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US pushing IP
                          negotiations over the CAP and the US pushing IP
                          issues in the WTO negotiations show how far
                          people will go to protect their parochial interest
                          and ignore all the ideology when it doesnt go
                          their way. just out of curiosity, do you drive
                          and american [sic] car? do you have an american
                          TV ... oh never mind ... an american stereo?
                          TV ... oh never mind ... and american stereo?
                          where are your shoes made? do you support
                          negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US
                          pushing IP issues in the WTO negotiations show how
                          far people will go to protect their parochial
                          interest and ignore all the ideology when it
                          doesnt go their way. just out of curiosity, do you
                          drive and american [sic] car? do you have an
                          american TV ... oh never mind ... an american
                          stereo?  where are your shoes made? do you support
                          sever penalites for those employing illegal
                          aliens, or should we just keep deporting the
                          persons themselves?
              \_ Who says that science and technology will decline in the US?
                 Why wouldn't they increase as Americans spend more effort on
                 research and diving into more technically challenging roles
                 to become more competitive than an outsourced counterpart?
                 to become more competitve than an outsourced counterpart?
                 \_ Because the competitive advantage from the discoveries
                    you have made, that is the fruits of your labour, will
                    be knowledge transferred to your counterpart in China
                    and India, and they are 10x cheaper than you, and just
                    as smart as you.  With globalization, there is now no
                    incentive for companies to build up a technology gap
                    between US and foreign countries, there is no longer
                    much incentive to invest in technology development in
                    between US and foreign countries, there is less and
                    less incentive to invest in technology development in
                    the US.  Also, China and India are constantly
                    encouraging US companies to invest in R&D over there
                    with all kinds of tax incentives and business partner-
                    with all kinds of tax breaks and business partner-
                    ship lures.  Is this bad for the world?  I don't know.
                    What I do know, is that it's good for China and India,
                    but bad for the US.  Anything to do with research and
                    that is "technical challenging" is not hard to
                    but bad for the US.  Anything to do with research or
                    that is "technically challenging" is not hard to
                    outsource.  All you need is top local talent, of which
                    India and China has plenty, a technology transfer so
                    they get up to speed, which US companies are happy to do,
                    and lots of money for the research facilities, which
                    US companies are happy to invest.
                    \_ Says who?  All evidence I've seen so far shows that
                       outsourced work, while cheaper, is significantly
                       inferior too.  Outsourced code sucks.  Speedy
                       communication still remains an issue.  If you're good
                       at what you do, then I maintain that you're not
                       expendible and your job won't be shipped overseas.  If
                       that isn't the case, then it's time for you to improve
                       your skills and make yourself more marketable.
        \_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one choose
           other than business administration or engineering in order to have
           the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily available as
           in CS.
                       \_ I am in 3G wireless infrastructure, and my
                          employer is systematically moving the whole
                          division to China.  It doesn't matter if I am
                          good or bad.  Even if I am good, I would be
                          good or bad.  Either way, I would be
                          forced to either move to a different field,
                          move to a different part of the country, stay
                          move to a different part of the country, or stay
                          on and do peripheral type work.
                          As for foreign coders, it is the same as over
                          here, some are idiots, some are good, but
                          they are improving fast.  And of course,
                          3G wireless has lots of military applications,
                          pretty kool for China.
                          pretty kool for China to have a large pool of
                          engineers with experience in this area.
        \_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one
           choose other than business administration or engineering in order
           to have the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily
           available as in CS.
           \_ Anything that gets you into law school or medical school.
              \- self-regulating indistries are in better positions to
                 protect themselves. there was a large influx of indian and
                 russian doctors in the 70s i believe and i assume the AMA
                 either ahead of time or in response took steps to keep them
                 from competing. typically they do so by insisiting on
                 certifications [we are here to protect you] and then defining
                 the area of practice very broadly. see e.g. the nolo v texas
                 case. my understanding is dental hyginists must work for a
                 dentist and cannot operate a $19.95 only-teeth-cleaning
                 service. i believe there are regulations on opticians as
                 well. civil engineers, ME, software engineers either missed
                 the boat or were never in a position to similarly dictate
                 competition terms.
              \_ Actually, engineering is probably a good choice if you want
                 to go to law school. IP lawyers (patent and copyright) are
                 generally paid more and have better working conditions that
                 the pol sci majors.
              \_ I can feel nothing but pity for people chosing majors
                 based ONLY on how much they're gonna make. It's gonna take 5
                 to 10 possibly best years of your life spent on learning
                 something that you're not passionate about before he/she can
                 even start earning money. Of course, most of them are probably
                 too dumb to make it into and through the medical or law school
                 or a rigorous CS program like at UCB anyways but I pity both
                 kinds.
                 \_ Law school doesn't require being smart.
        \_ Just learn to say "would you like fries with that?" like all th
           PolySci/English majors have been doing for decades.
           \_ Actually, I say "Have you rtfm?" these days. -English major
2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41082 Activity:nil
12/19   http://www.chung-hoon.navy.mil
        USS Chung-Hoon: US destroyer named after Chinese-American Rear
        Admiral.
        \_ Is "Imua e na Koa Kai" Chinese?  It sounds like Japanes to me.
           \_ It sounds hawaiian, actually.
2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41083 Activity:kinda low
12/19 "The round-table with the vice president came after hundreds of troops
      had gathered in an aircraft hangar to hear from a mystery guest. When
      Cheney emerged at the podium, he drew laughs when he deadpanned, 'I'm
      not Jessica Simpson.' Shouts of 'hooah!' from the audience interrupted
      Cheney a few times, but mostly the service members listened intently.
      When he delivered the applause line, 'We're in this fight to win. These
      colors don't run,' the only sound was a lone whistle."
      http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1543165/posts
        \_ Uh, hello jblack?
        \_ Is there a reason why you are posting this as a link through
         freerepublic when in fact the actual story itself is from
         SFGate? Seems like a rather convoluted way to post a story.
         BTW, the part you excerpted is not part of the freeper excerpt,
         but is part of the main article.
           freerepublic when in fact the actual story itself is from SFGate?
           Seems like a rather convoluted way to post a story. BTW, the part
           you excerpted is not part of the freeper excerpt, but is part of
           the main article.
           \_ You get two links for the price of one!
              And you desensitize the freeper-link-deleter.
              As for your BTW statement, you get info that people may not
              notice unless they click through twice.
              \_ Plus, you get your daily dose of Freeper rants!
2017/09/26 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:December:19 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>