Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 34963
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2004/11/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:34963 Activity:high
11/18   Sowell on the killing of the wounded insurgent.  I was wondering
        the same things.
        http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20041118.shtml
        \_ "Terrorists are not enemy soldiers covered by the rules of
           war. Nor should they be. They observe no rules." I stopped
           reading after this. By the same token, the Genova convention
           is obsolete, because anyone can say the enemy is not covered.
           \_ i'm not losing sleep over it.
           \_ Hello.  I do not condone the murder of the wounded man, but
              people who do not act like an organized military are not
              afforded Geneva Convention protections.  End of story.
                -- ilyas
              \_ Ilya, war is no longer declared between nations and fought
                 by cavalry regiments adhering to strict rules of combat.
                 It's a dirty, filthy brutal mess, and you're going to see
                 more and more irregular forces fighting wars.  The Geneva
                 Conventions were not designed to strictly protect "soldiers"
                 based on some static definition of who wears what; the
                 brutality committed against civilians and irregulars in wars
                 since they were signed has been despite them, not as a
                 result.  The Conventions seek to limit the damage done by
                 wars as a natural result of the kind of barbarism unleashed
                 in a war of any kind.  If you were to capture OBL himself, if
                 he is defeated and can no longer defend himself, it is your
                 responsibility as a combatant to treat him according to a
                 basic set of standards.  You may _not_ sodomize, shoot, or
                 torture him.  Period.  Legalese aside, the US must follow a
                 higher standard of conduct than terrorists, undemocratic
                 states, irregulars, tyrants, etc.  There is no argument that
                 can justify anything that goes against this imperative.
                 None.  The only justification that the USA have for engaging
                 the rest of the world, unless it is against some body that
                 has directly attacked us, is moral authority.  When that
                 fails, the whole basis for being the (necessary) world
                 policeman is destroyed as well.  -John
                 \_ The only 'moral' argument I can offer is of a utilitarian
                    nature, and that is if you must wage war, wage it as
                    quickly and brutally as possible, so it is over as
                    quickly as possible.  I simply disagree with your morals.
                    A captured, ununiformed man who tried to kill soldiers
                    forfeits his life, in much the same way a civilian who tries
                    (or does!) kill a cop.  There is no way to wage moral war,
                    by the way.  War is inherently immoral. -- ilyas
                    \_ Quickly, yes.  Brutally?  That is counterproductive.
                       A democracy should not wage unprovoked offensive war,
                       which is essentially what we have done, but even if you
                       disagree with the {morals,ethics} of this, being
                       purposely nasty to people _after the fact_ has never
                       in any war, ever accomplished anything.  Furthermore,
                       it is not in the authority of an individual soldier to
                       mete out summary justice or punishment, ever.  It is
                       his duty to win, and it is the duty and authority of
                       a military chain of command to deal with uninformed
                       soldier-whackers and their ilk.  This is a simple,
                       black and white issue; if a captive is killed in self-
                       defense while trying to harm a soldier, it is (as with
                       your cop example) regrettable but probably unavoidable.
                       If it is a captive killed after the fact of trying to
                       harm a soldier, it is a crime.  Period.  -John
                       \_ I also disagree that a democracy should not wage
                          offensive war, I simply don't see why offensive war
                                  \_ You've obviously never played Civilization
                                     \_ EU or Victoria >> Civ. -- ilyas
                          is always unjustified.  Similarly, I don't see why
                          executions of ununiformed people, if properly
                          authorized, are wrong (they certainly were not in
                          this case, and the soldier will be dealt with).
                          I think given that a certain portion of the population
                          (or, in the case of Iraq, mostly foreigners)
                          is actively soldier hunting with guns and bombs, I
                          think the situation has moved past pleasant
                          discussions, and basically such people need to be
                          killed.  If captured, they can possibly be killed
                          after a trial or some such, but a short military
                          trial is not unreasonable in my eyes.  These people
                          are not conscripts of a state, they are not taking
                          orders.  They can leave at any time, yet they fight.
                          There is a reason GC is applied to uniformed
                          soldiers, it's not just a quaint 19th century
                          cavalry thing.  Btw, brutality and quickness are not
                          tied together just as a turn of phrase.  Brutality
                          really is the most efficient way.  Not moral, of
                          course. -- ilyas
                          \_ I'd love to prove you wrong, but some baboon
                             keeps overwriting my reply.  Screw it.  -John
                             \_ Ironically, it's probably ilyas, esp
                                considering how active he is in this thread.
              \_ this is total bullshit. I never understood how people
                 get away w/ calling our enemies in this Iraq war
                 "terrorists" instead of soldiers or whatever other
                 military jargon people use.
                 Isnt this what the british said about the US in the
                 Revolutionary War? (I mean, not literally about the
                 Geneva convention per se, but this mentality)
                 \_ Because they _aren't_
                    soldiers.  Soldier = in a chain of command, wears
                    uniform, etc.  Certainly, armies employ 'spies'
                    and other unconventionals.  But if they are caught,
                    they are not afforded the GC protections, are
                    tortured, etc.  This has been done in every war, by
                    all sides.  This is a distasteful business, etc.
                    but why is this new to anyone?  People can't seem
                    to separate 'distasteful', 'reprehensible', etc.
                    from 'unlawful.'  US is not being unlawful. -- ilyas
                    \_ Thank you John Yoo Jr.  Sodomizing and torturing
                       innocent people or executing guerilla fighters are both
                       against the Geneva convention, and both these groups of
                       people ARE covered, as much as the administration would
                       like to argue otherwise.
                       \_ Sodomizing innocent people is against the rules of
                          war.  Is there a link detailing protections
                          ununiformed people (guerillas, random fuckers with bombs,
                          etc.) are granted?  My impressions are such folks
                          are shot on the spot if they are lucky, or 'questioned'
                          if not.  Methinks you be full of shit.  You can't expect
                          the military to gingerly handle folks who are out to
                          kill them. -- ilyas
                          \_ I'm not asking them to shake hands and be polite,
                             merely refrain from torture and executions.  Is
                             that too much to ask of the US Army?
                             \_ I dislike torture.  I think executions are morally
                                justified.  YMMV.  I have yet to see a document the
                                US signed which forbids either being applied to
                                ununiformed folks with guns/bombs.  -- ilyas
                 \_ It's called 'framing the debate'.  This way it's about how
                    you treat terrorists.  If you call them rebels or
                    insurgents or, god forbid, freedom fighters that opens up
                    all sorts of unpleasant questions about what they're
                    fighting for.
                    \- i agree with your sentiment but i dont think you have
                       picked a good example. i think a better example [i have
                       not giventhis huge thought, so there may be even better
                       cases] is agent orange. i bet in the NVA were spraying
                       american troops with agent O, "we" would have called
                       that chemical warfare. i dont like the writing
                       especially but you may wish to see waltzer: just and
                       unjust wars. --psb
                    \_ Why would calling them rebels or insurgents open up
                       unpleasant questions? I don't think you can call them
                       freedom fighters. I don't think they're calling
                       themseves that. I suppose Bush would say they're
                       freedom fighters -- they're fighting freedom!
                       \_ Hahahahaha!!!
              \_ Just to add more facts:
                 Dubya says Al Qaeda and other foreign terrorists are not
                 afforded GC protections.  Former Baathists and other Iraqi
                 nationals fighting aginst Americans probably are covered
                 as long as they are easily distinguishible from civilians.
                 \_ Ummm.. yeah.  If they were wearing uniforms and acting
                    like soldiers, then sure.
                    \_ This whole 'uniforms and be in an army' thing just seems
                       like trying to justify raping people with glowsticks.
                       Uniforms don't matter because you should not be
                       commiting war crimes on civilians either, and if someone
                       is pointing a gun at you you know they're a combatant.
                       The 'act like soldiers' thing is meaningless.  Do they
                       not deserve protection because they did not surrender
                       when the invaders disbanded their army?  Guerilla
                       warfare is a perfectly valid battle tactic, just not one
                       the the US army handles well.
                       \_ Guerilla Warfare != Terrorism.  Car bombing
                          civilians and beheading hostages is not
                          "Guerilla Warfare"
                          \_ Of course not everything they do is guerilla
                             warfare, and I never defended terrorism or
                             brutality.  It is a perfectly legitimate tactic to
                             take sniper shots at an occupying foreign army.
                             Denying these people the GC protections is a bad
                             thing.  Realize that the Iraqi insurgency is not
                             some unified force for evil, but many people
                             fighting for different reasons and using different
                             tactics.
                             \_ That's true.  So far I haven't seen a lot
                                of evidence that the army is lumping them
                                into one group.  But sometimes it's
                                better to be safe than sorry.
                          \_ Like pp said, al-Zarqawi != The Insurgency
                    \_ Unlike previous battles in Iraq, the Fallujah
                       insurgents have been easily distinguishable from
                       civilians.
                       If you say:  "That isn't enough, you need to wear the
                       uniform of the Iraqi armed forces", well, then who cares
                       about the occasional GI who got hit in the face the
                       previous day and doesn't want to take any chances?  He
                       could have nuked all five guys in the mosque, in which
                       case, he would only need to show he didn't violate the
                       rules of engagement.
        \_ I just don't think we can condemn the soldier out of hand.  We don't
           know the circumstances, and "insurgents" have been booby trapping
           dead bodies and running suicide missions.  We kill Japanese just
           fine in the same situations.
           \_ "He's fucking faking he's dead!  He's fucking faking he's dead!"
              *brapbrapbrapbrap*
              "Well he's dead now."
              == He's going to unload a wad of C4 on you!
              In the mean time, the entire video is replayed over and over
              again in Iraq and across the Arab world while U.S. citizens
              are trolling http://freerepublic.com and /etc/motd about hidden
              grenades and uniforms.  U.S. broadcast and cable networks
              cover nekkid Desperate Housewives character jumping into the
              arms of a uniformed NFL football player.
2025/07/08 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/8     

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www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20041118.shtml
During the recent election campaign, it has been a liberal mantra that th ey "support the troops" while opposing the war in Iraq. Just what does s upporting the troops mean -- other than just a throwaway line to escape the political consequences of a long history of being anti-military? It certainly does not mean making the slightest effort to understand the pressures and dangers of combat, so as to avoid the obscenity of sittin g in peace and comfort while second-guessing at leisure some life-and-de ath decisions that had to be made in a split second by men 10,000 miles away. The latest example is the now widely-publicized incident in which an Ame rican Marine in Iraq shot and killed a wounded terrorist in Fallujah. Ch ris Matthews on Hardball spoke of "what may be the illegal killing of a wounded, unarmed insurgent" -- the politically correct media term for a terrorist -- and asked: "Is there ever a justification for shooting an u narmed enemy?" The unreality of this question is breath-taking, both logically and hist orically. How do you know that someone is unarmed, when finding out can cost you your life? A hand grenade is easily concealed and can kill you just as dead as if you were shot by a machine gun or hit by a nuclear mi ssile. American troops in Iraq have already been killed by booby-trapped bodies . During World War II, wounded Japanese soldiers sometimes waited for an American medical corpsman to come over to help them and then exploded a hand grenade, killing them both. Assuming that somehow you are certain that an enemy is unarmed, perhaps because you have already searched him or disarmed him, is it ever justif ied to kill him anyway? That question was answered more than half a cent ury ago, when German troops wearing American uniforms and speaking Engli sh infiltrated American lines during the Battle of the Bulge. Those German troops, when captured, were lined up against a wall and sho t dead. The rules of war, the Geneva Convention, do not protect soldiers who are not wearing their own country's uniforms. To get the protection of rule s, you have to play by the rules. Terrorists are not enemy soldiers covered by the rules of war. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the United Nations can al l talk about "the Geneva Convention." But that agreement on the rules of war has never applied to combatants not wearing the uniform of any coun try that is a party to the Geneva Convention. Terrorists wear no uniform and show no mercy, as they have repeatedly de monstrated by beheading innocent civilians, including women. Why any such terrorists should be captured alive in the first place is a real question. But ev ery terrorist our troops try to capture alive increases the risk of deat h for American combat troops. It is more than enough to ask a man to put his life on the line for his country, without needlessly increasing those risks by trying to be noble r than thou or playing to the international gallery. The very fact that this Marine in Fallujah has been taken out of combat and is under invest igation can only have an inhibiting effect on other troops. The inhibitions under which American troops have already had to fight ha ve needlessly jeopardized their safety while we tiptoe around the delica te sensibilities of the media, European critics and "the Arab street." The Times of London refers to a Marine "killing an unarmed man in cold b lood." If that was his purpose he could have opened fire when he entered the room, instead of waiting until he saw an Iraqi terrorist faking bei ng dead -- for what purpose the Marine had no way of knowing. We cannot fight wars to please The Times of London or the other nay-saye rs and nit-pickers who have been against us from the beginning. There is no point trying to appease people who are not going to be appeased anyw ay. And to do so at an increased risk to American lives would be crimina l 2004 Creators Syndicate, Inc. Applied Economics So much of our national political debate these days revolves around econo mic matters -- taxes, health care, even affirmative action and immigrati on policy -- that it is essential for every informed American to have a working knowledge of economics. Now the renowned conservative economist Thomas Sowell has made it possible for you to grasp quickly and easily t he economic elements of key public policies -- even if economics has alw ays seemed dry and forbidding in the past. Then write a letter to your Members of Congress or your local newspapers, who you can find by entering your ZIP code in the boxes below. Also mak e sure to tell your newspaper editors that they should carry your favori te conservative columnists! NOTE: Columns will not be automatically attached to the emails you send t hrough this tool.
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Republic Log In | Register News/Activism Latest | Search | Topics | Home | Help News/Activism Threads Threads | Messages Search (by title: enter all relevant words or partial title) Search Austrians Praise Schwarzenegger in US Posted by Ernest_at_the_Beach On 05/13/2004 9:28:13 PM PDT with 1 comment The Las Vegas Sun ^ | May 13, 2004 at 11:56:36 PDT | GEORGE JAHN GRAZ, Austria (AP) - America, nein. Arnie, ja! When Austrians vent about the United States, the key word nowadays is "no" to things American, with only a few exceptions - including praise of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnie, that country has a real problem," says Robert Biber, echoing sentiments across Austria roused by images of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners. Outrage as KISS player mouths off on Muslims Posted by veronica On 05/13/2004 9:25:48 PM PDT with 3 comments Sydney Morning Herald ^ | May 14, 2004 KISS bass player Gene Simmons has caused an uproar among Australia's Muslim community by launching an attack on Islamic culture while in Melbourne. The lizard-tongued rock god who is touring Australia with the world's most enduring glam rock band launched an attack on Muslim extremists during an interview on Melbourne's 3AW radio - including comments which were labelled inaccurate. Cold Turkey Posted by Rennes Templar On 05/13/2004 9:23:01 PM PDT In These Times ^ | May 10, 2004 | Kurt Vonnegut Many years ago, I was so innocent I still considered it possible that we could become the humane and reasonable America so many members of my generation used to dream of. We dreamed of such an America during the Great Depression, when there were no jobs. 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Martin Newland, the editor of Britain's top-selling broadsheet, "has decided to suspend the column until legal proceedings are completed," the paper said in a statement on Thursday. What Led Nick Berg to Iraq? Posted by dyno35 On 05/13/2004 8:48:10 PM PDT with 20 comments The Philadelphia Daily News ^ | May 13, 2004 | By William Bunch BERG'S JOURNEY SPARKED FBI PROBE AND OTHER STRANGE DETAILS HE WAS not like anyone else his friends from West Chester had ever known - an adventurous dreamer, a driven idealist, part philosopher and part inventor who was bored with college Record 26m divorce win 'a pyrrhic victory' (More Saudi kidnapping) Posted by Lan...