7/23 Time to unionize.
\_ unionize what? you need a job before you have a union. maybe
you missed the part where most unions are giving huge concessions
and letting their members get laid off these days?
\_ concessions are usually given when the business is in
serious trouble (e.g. airlines, auto industry, etc). however,
even in troubling times, union's can still negotiate pay scale,
benefits, no outsourcing to india/china/russia, and basically
keep americans employed. Given that there are still legions of
computer-related workers gainfully employed, they could flex
their clout and be a power to be reckoned with in the company
board room and washington. when the economy is going good, most
people buy the company line that no union is necessary, but now
we are in bad times, and ideas like unionizing starts to gain
some appeal. Imagine what could happen if workers organized
at Microsoft, HP, Sun, and IBM.
\_ the same thing that happened to all those organized
auto and steel workers in Detroit and Pittsburgh. -tom
\_ the same thing that happened to the organized auto and
steel workers in Detroit and Pittsburgh. -tom
\_ the job losses in Detroit could have been much worse
without unions, and also protectionist measures brought
on by both unions and the auto companies.
\_ I imagine they'd send 90% of those jobs to India and the
other 10% would take a pay cut to keep their jobs. That's
what I imagine. Hello? Bad economy? Worker glut! The
airlines, auto, etc industries have to put up with unions
because they can't use Indian pilots and stewards or move
auto production offshore (due to tariffs and protectionism).
Your info job can be moved offshore quite easily because your
physical location isn't meaningful for most IT jobs and since
you're not dealing with the public directly (such as an
airline steward) the public doesn't know or care if you or
someone in Bombay wrote that line of code. And obviously
the IT industry not only doesn't have protection like the
auto industry but through the H1b and L programs the Feds
are actually encouraging the use of non-citizens to destroy
the local job base in IT. End the H1 and L programs and send
the current H1/L people home and you'll have several job
offers to choose from by the end of the same week.
\_ Exactly! these programs won't end on their own because
it directly benefits big business. The only way to change
this is through organizations like unions.
If companies continue to outsource their IP, they will
lose in the end. These foreign companies will in essence
take over since they have such low costs. The future
Bill Gates of india/china/russia should be very happy
about now.
\_ Unions won't stop H1b/L programs. Only lobbying will.
Unions are anti-corporation. Lobbying = change gov't
policy. It's nice to see you understand the
underlying issue if not the correct solution.
\_ anybody have a copy of that picture of Bill Gates getting the
red dot in the forehead in India? That epitomizes the future of
the tech industry.
\_ Wrong. A lot of Indian tech outfits are moving production
to China/Vietnam. First, 'production' is the key word. The
concept of an economic 'core' and 'periphery' assumes that
production of goods/services which have matured (see steel
and electronics) move to places that have better economies
of scale. Note how production of TVs and toasters moved
out of the US--did that kill the US electronics industry?
Next, you'll never get rid of 'on-the-ground' services.
Bad example, but still somehow fitting, is Mango, a Spanish
clothing chain. They produce in Spain, which is pricier
than, say, Malaysia, but lets them get new requirements to
market quicker. The argument against this is that we're
talking about information rather than goods, but face time
will always be important. As for unions, look at Germany
as a good case study for why unions in their current state
(note my wording) are a dead duck. They kill the economy
by refusal to adapt or provide up-to-date services to
members, and are really only relevant to an ever-shrinking
pool of 'grunt' workers. I realize this is an over-
generalization, but suggesting unionization as a solution
to the migration of tech jobs and mistreatment of tech
workers is kind of a dead end. -John
\_ The German worker is the most productive and highly
paid in the world. He also works less than anyone
but the French. This is hardly an argument against
unionization. The German economy is not doing that
well, but the German standard of living is high and
there is almost no poverty. Germany's biggest problem
is due to their unwillingness to admit enough immigants
to overcome the demographic problem of the aging
population. Re: unions, ask a carpenter, plumber,
or electrician how unionization is working out for
them. System administration is alot more like these
skilled trades and would do well with a union. -ausman
\_ "The German worker" includes white collar & service
industry, which make up the majority of the German
workforce. IGM and similar unions pushing for the
35-hour week represent a small, obsolete, and
shrinking percentage of the German workforce. In
addition, the German economy is one of the slowest
growing in Europe, coasting on the success of the
last 50 years. So no, my original point stands. -John
\_ The American worker is the world's most productive
by far, not the German. Germany's economy is deep
in the shitter for many reasons such as population
aging, overly generous benefits and pension plans,
lack of immigration and excessively high taxes to
pay for everything. It's a vicious cycle spiraling
ever downwards. Their current batch of politicians
understands this and is trying to do something about
it without losing their own jobs. The people are
screaming bloody murder of course. I don't think
they'll recover until they've had a complete
economic collapse and all government services simply
cease. Then they can invade France. :-)
\_ THe unemployment rate is 25% in parts of Germany.
\_ They have also been saddled with the former
East Germany situation. Anyway in my opinion,
Europe's concern with standard of living is
the way to go. What's wrong with tariffs and
protectionism against slavedriver countries?
\_ You are simply wrong. Productity (output per
hour worked) is slightly higher all over Europe
than in the US. Do a google search and you will
see. Unemployment is high because of labor saving
techniques and the use of things like robots,
which Germany is #1 in the world. The only thing
America excels at is in the total number of hours
worked. To me, that is a good argument for
unions, not against them. I sure wish I had
six weeks of vacation a year. -ausman
\_ Jim, once again you are basing your statement
on a blanket definition of 'the German worker'.
This does not apply to the (unionized) blue
collar sector, and their unemployment cannot
simply be chalked up to mechanization. A large
part of it is employers balking at the pension
burden imposed by government labor laws. In
addition I should mention that compared to US
or UK organizational culture, my experience
with German white collar workers has shown a
markedly lesser bent towards efficiency. -John
\_ I bow to John's superior knowledge and personal
experience at this point and simply say, "Yeah!
What John said! That's right!" --other person
\_ I was gonna let this thread die at that, but
I came back from lunch and cannot resist it.
Unemployment in West Germany is 8.1% and
falling. Contrast that to the USA, which is
at 6.4% and rising and has 1-2% of the labor
pool in prison. I don't know what the
problem with East Germany is. Got any
urls to back up the blue collar vs.
white collar productivity statement? I
cannot find anything with casual googling
and everything I have read in The Economist
tends to indicate otherwise. -ausman
\_The rate varies widely across the country.
In Bavaria that may be the case, in Berlin
its 25%+. Maybe the German's I know are
lying - what is your source.
http://www.arbeitsamt.de/hst/services statistik/english/s002e.pdf _/
I am pretty sure Berlin qualifies as "East Germany" -ausman
\_ The problem isn't the unemployment. The problem is the doomed
pension system, coupled with an incredible income tax rate (>50%)
and an overly bureaucratic system hostile to innovation. -John
and an overly bureaucratic system hostile to innovation. And yes
I do know a lot about the German economy because I live next door
and follow the situation fairly closely. Germany's economy is
seriously broken, by their government's own tacit admission. And
yes, they're too gutless to fix it (which would mean some serious
pain all around.) -John
\_ We can have a discussion about the effect of tax rates on
long term economic growth another time. I think how
government money is spent is more important than how much
though. See Sweden vs US for an interesting case. All of
the big economies have the pension problem and all will
end up having to solve it the same way (raising the retirement
ago) imo. Dunno about the bureaucracy, but in the past Germany
has prided itself on its union/corporate co-operative culture.
Now I really have to stop participating in this and get
some work done! -ausman
\_ Sweden? Are you trying to say they don't have economic
problems similar to Germany (albeit on a smaller scale as
they are a less populous country)? Sweden isn't exactly a
hotbed of innovation or growing economic power. At least
Germany has something to recover back to if/after their
economy collapses. Sweden? Too small, no real industry,
insufficient base of people in the labor pool, and on and on
and on.... I'd bet 5 bucks on Germany doing better 20 years
from now than Sweden. --other person |
http://csua.com/feed/