Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:October:29 Sunday <Saturday, Sunday>
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2006/10/29-30 [Science/Electric] UID:45024 Activity:nil 75%like:45028
10/29   FoxTrot on Electronic Voting:
        http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ft/2006/ft061029.gif
2006/10/29-30 [Academia/UCLA, Uncategorized/Profanity, Recreation/Sports] UID:45025 Activity:nil
10/29   Sucks so bad that USC lost. It was Cal's best chance for a BCS
        bid. -- USC student, Cal fan.
        \_ Fuck all of you assholes.  -Berkeley alum, who couldn't give two
           shits about "Cal".
           \_ Fuck you, too.
        \_ I don't see how it makes a difference. If USC won, Cal would still
           need to beat USC to go to the Rose Bowl. Now, Cal needs to beat
           USC to go to the Rose Bowl. If Cal loses against USC, they wouldn't
           be going to a BCS bowl whether USC beat OrSt or not.
           \_ The argument is that if USC went to the Championship game,
              then Cal could finish 2nd and still go to the Rose Bowl.
              I don't like that argument. If Cal goes to the Rose Bowl it
              should not be because USC is playing for a MNC. The loss
              helped Cal, because now Cal has a game "to give" if they
              beat USC and a chance to finish 1st even if they lose to USC
              (if someone else can beat USC, too).
        \_ My argument was that if USC stayed #3 and Cal beat them (handing
           USC their only loss), Cal would have a good chance of finishing
           Top 6 and getting a BCS bid. I didn't consider Cal losing to USC.
           \_ If Cal beats USC, Cal wins the Pac-10 and goes to the Rose Bowl.
              This was the case last week, and it's the case now.
           \_ Cal doesn't need to finish top 6 to get a BCS bid.  If Cal
              beats USC and has no more than one other Pac-10 loss, we are
              guaranteed to go to the Rose Bowl.  If we lose to USC but
              finish in the top 14 BCS rankings, we can still go to a BCS
              bowl--there's one more BCS bowl this year than there has been
              in the past, so the chances are much less that we'll be screwed
              like we were in 2004 (and Oregon in 2005).
              In any case, the focus should be on beating USC, which would
              make polls and tiebreakers unimportant.  -tom
              \_ The focus should be beating the next opponent, as UDub
                 showed. If we lose to Arizona and UCLA then who cares
                 about USC?
                 \_ Yeah, but now we can lose to one of them and still go.
2006/10/29-30 [Uncategorized] UID:45026 Activity:nil
10/29   Noted liberal George Will on the war:
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15460708/site/newsweek
        \_ Well, he certainly gets this week's award for most gratuitous
           Russia-bashing.
           \_ It's like we read two different columns, only I happen to know
              we didn't.
2006/10/29-11/1 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45027 Activity:nil
10/29   Motd lawyers, help me: is it still legal for people to shove their
        flyers under my door? I'm this close to going postal on the next person
        who puts  a flyer on my doorknob.
        \_ Yes, it is.  Unless you can point me to some local city or county
           ordinance that prohibits the practice.
           \_ See, now, the point of my post was so that YOU would find the
              local or county ordinance for me. But thanks for playing.
              \_ See, now, the point of my post was that YOU did NOT ever
                 name which county or city you lived in, so answering your
                 question is absolutely impossible, unless you wanted
                 someone to go down, city-by-city, county-by-county, every
                 single public nuisance law and make an analysis.  The motd
                 response entry would then be about 50 pages long and would
                 take up several days of attorney time at my billable rate
                 of nearly 400 dollars an hour.  Tell me where to send the
                 bill, give me a $5,000 retainer, and I'll get started.
                 Until then, thanks for playing.
                 \_ How much did you bill your real client to write that stupid
                    little rant on the motd?
2006/10/29 [Science/Electric] UID:45028 Activity:nil 75%like:45024
10/29   FoxTrot on Electronic Voting:
        link:tinyurl.com/ynafyu
2006/10/29-11/1 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45029 Activity:moderate
10/29   Mark Steyn op/ed in the Chicago Sun Times.
        http://www.suntimes.com/news/steyn/114966,CST-EDT-steyn29.article
           The invaluable Brussels Journal recently translated an interview
           with the writer Oscar van den Boogaard from the Belgian paper De
           Standaard. A Dutch gay "humanist" (which is pretty much the
           trifecta of Eurocool), van den Boogaard was reflecting on the
           accelerating Islamification of the Continent and concluding that
           the jig was up for the Europe he loved. "I am not a warrior, but
           who is?" he shrugged. "I have never learned to fight for my
           freedom. I was only good at enjoying it."
                \_ Yay I'm eurocool!
        Just something to think about.
        \_ I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I believe that the suspension
           of habeous corpus is a life-and-death issue for this republic.
           \_ Which may be true but isn't at all what OvdB is talking about.
              Do you believe whole heartedly with him that the accelerating
              Islamificiation of Europe is destroying it as we speak?
              \_ No, I agree with the op's assertion that the quote, sans
                 context, is something to think about.
                 \_ Ok, then you totally missed the point because context
                    is everything.  Without context the quote floats out in
                    meaningless space.  Do you really believe that there is no
                    Islamification process taking place in Europe now or do you
                    believe it will not end Mr. OvdB's freedom as he knows it?
                    And btw, replying by misdirection is thread jacking and
                    somewhat rude since you didn't agree at all with the real
                    point being made.  Please make your own thread if you
                    want to talk about the US and Bush bashing.  --op
                    \_ Well, now, you didn't actually seem to have a point
                       before. If you wanted this to be a thread about the
                       "islamification" of Europe, perhaps you should have
                       included explicating text to that effect. Instead, you
                       gave us a shotgun splatter or both "islamification" and
                       a quote that seemed to be aimed at galvanizing geeks
                       sitting on their asses. Really, if you're not going to
                       be clear in what you want to talk about, how do expect
                       anyone to take you seriously? In regards to the
                        \_ <sarcasm> Hmmm, multi-line post about
                           Islamification.  No mention of US or Bush.
                           Clearly, I was unclear and I can now see how you
                           thought I was talking about Bush and the US and not
                           Europe and Islamification.  </sarcasm>
                           \_ I didn't. I thought you were talking about
                              learning to fight for your freedom, hence my
                              declaration that I agree that we must fight for
                              for our freedom against its enemies, like Bush.
                              \_ I was but in a European/Islamic context.  I
                                 read+hear enough about this country's
                                 problems which are serious but I don't believe
                                 rise to the level of what I see going on in
                                 Europe.  If Europe really does fall and turn
                                 into a part of some Greater Caliphate then
                                 our current problems and trends will look
                                 trivial in comparison.
                                 \_ And if we let the Jews own property,
                                    they'll turn all good Christians into their
                                    slaves and drink the blood of Christian
                                    babies. Alarmist overreactions are often
                                    used to solidify nationalist support and
                                    ostracize/marginalize foreign populations.
                                    The much more likely outcome of Muslim
                                    immigration to the EU is secularization
                                    of Islam. How we handle this integration
                                    and assimilation will determine how much of
                                    stake the next generation of Islamo-Euro-
                                    peans feel they have in the status quo.
                                    Cf. the riots in Paris which have nothing
                                    to do with Islam and everything to do with
                                    economic depression in the ethnic slums.
                                    \_ Hopefully you can see the difference
                                       between the racism inflicted on other
                                       people and the demographic trends in
                                       Europe going on right now shifting
                                       towards people who are anti-Western and
                                       have no concept of freedom as we know
                                       it in the West.  Blood libels against
                                       Jews are not the same as the real world
                                       events you can read about in newspapers
                                       every day.  But I'm sure you knew that.
                                       \_ Please show me evidence of these
                                          demographic trends you speak of.
                                          \_ Try this.  It even attempts to
                                             tell us that all of this is a-ok.
                                             I thought you might appreciate a
                                             link of this nature instead of
                                             the doom n gloom link I more
                                             easily could have provided:
                                             http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=19233
                                             \_ Thank you. I do indeed
                                                appreciate your effort here.
                                                This is an interesting article
                                                and certainly raises some
                                                issues. However, I still don't
                                                see a trend toward anti-
                                                Western populations with no
                                                concept of freedom as we know
                                                it in the West; in fact, I see
                                                a trend toward people who are
                                                even more painfully aware of
                                                how precious our (now their)
                                                freedoms are.
                                                \_ This doesn't directly talk
                                                   of demogph trends but it
                                                   does cover several issues
                                                   more broadly and is perhaps
                                                   more interesting than some
                                                   of the charts I found
                                                   elsewhere:
                                                   http://www.digitalnpq.org/articles/europe/10/08-17-2005/ayaan_hirsi_ali
                                                   \_ Let's be blunt: any
                                                      crimes against another
                                                      person (or illegal
                                                      possession of explosives
                                                      or weapons) should
                                                      certainly be dealt with
                                                      immediately and with the
                                                      full weight of the law.
                                                      That goes for anyone,
                                                      native or immigrant. That
                                                      said, immigrant !=
                                                      terrorist or criminal.
                                    \_ Islam has never successfully been
                                       secularized (even Turkey is not what
                                       we in the West would call secular).
                                       The experience of India under the yoke
                                       of Islam is illustrative. If not for
                                       the British, India would have been
                                       lost.
                                       \_ India under Islamic rule is history,
                                          not current events. You'd be better
                                          off pointing to the Islamic Rev. in
                                          Iran. However, find me a country that
                                          has turned to Sharia as a result of
                                          immigration.
                                          \_ I do not know of a country that
                                             has turned to Sharia b/c of
                                             immigration BUT this is largely
                                             because population did not have
                                             a great degree of mobility till
                                             the 2d 1/2 of the 20th century.
                                             Slower mobility in the past ment
                                             that there was greater time for
                                             indigenous culture to assimilate
                                             and modify the immigrant culture.
                                             This is no longer true and to
                                             act on the assumption that it
                                             remains true risks the future of
                                             Europe.
                                             [ The problem is futher compounded
                                               by the falling birth rate in
                                               Europe, outside of Islamic
                                               immigrants ]
                                             \_ I'm not seeing evidence that
                                                immigrants to Europe or the
                                                US are causing cultural or
                                                legislative changes. The charge
                                                of creeping Islamification
                                                still rings of alarmism. What
                                                changes do you see that alarm
                                                you, and how are these changes
                                                different from the assimilation
                                                of other immigrant populations?
                                 \_ Just as Europe had to be defended against
                                    Soviet communism, despite its reluctance
                                    to defend itself, Europe must be defended
                                    against Islamism. The current administra-
                                    tion, unfortunately, makes this difficult
                                    b/c it is unable or unwilling to understand
                                    the European mind and work w/ it. [ I do
                                    not mean to suggest that a Democratic
                                    administration would be more effective, I
                                    think that neither party, currently, has
                                    leaders who would be able to effectively
                                    help Europe and thereby help America w/
                                    this particular problem. ]
                       "islamification" of Europe, I believe that the effect is
                       being exaggerated and exploited by national front types
                       to further an agenda of immigrant bashing. If we let
                       these reactionaries determine policy, all foreigners
                       will end up in ghettos and there will be regularly
                       scheduled pogroms to keep them in line.
                       \_ So you think OvdB is a national front ultra
                          nationalist type?  Or he's been suckered in by them?
                          He is certainly not a national frontist.
                          \_ I'm not sure what his deal is. That having been
                             said, even self-described Dutch gay humanists are
                             not immune to overreactions.
              \_ Just this morning I read of a Muslim teacher in the UK who
                 was fighting for her "right" to wear a veil in the classroom.
                 This, to me, is sufficient illustration of Islamification
                 subverting and destroying Europe and European ideas.
                 Europe has long embraced an admirable attitude of tolerance
                 for all manner of ideas. But, this same attitude has been and
                 is being used against Europe by the Islamists in order to
                 import all manners of practices directly opposed to the
                 fundamental values of liberty and equality. Is it really
                 equality and choice that the above mentioned teacher is fighting
                 for? Or is she merely a pawn in some larger game?
                 The root of the problem is that most European's have accepted,
                 as the philosophical basis for their tolerance, the proposition
                 that all belief systems are equally valid and that any distaste
                 for alternate systems is based, not on any inherent flaw in
                 that system, but rather in our own prejudices and biases. "If
                 only we understood them better, there would be no problem" is
                 the problem. By thinking of the problem as one from w/in
                 instead of one from w/o the revolution has not been televised.
                 I agree w/ above poster, that some national front types have,
                 in the past, exaggerated the effect of the Islamification of
                 Europe for purposes other than the protection of Europe's
                        Europe has long embraced an admirable attitude of
                 tolerance for all manner of ideas. But, this same attitude
                 has been and is being used against Europe by the Islamists
                 in order to import all manners of practices directly opposed
                 to the fundamental values of liberty and equality. Is it
                 really equality and choice that the above mentioned teacher
                 is fighting for? Or is she merely a pawn in some larger game?
                        The root of the problem is that most European's have
                        The root of the problem is that many European's have
                                               the panda says "NO!"_/
                 accepted, as the philosophical basis for their tolerance, the
                 proposition that all belief systems are equally valid and that
                 any distaste for alternate systems is based, not on inherent
                 flaws in that other system, but rather in our own prejudices
                 and biases. "If only we understood them better, there would be
                 no problem" is the problem. By thinking of the problem as one
                 from w/in instead of one from w/o the revolution has not been
                 televised.
                 \_ I don't know based on what you make this assertion, but
                    it's not accurate.  Replace "most" with "many" and you
                    have something there.  The success of Pim Fortuyn in
                    Holland, the recent Swiss immigration referenda, and
                    various other restrictive laws/moves against what is
                    essentially islamification prove this nicely.  The main
                    problem is that political groups most active against the
                    rise of islamist influence have a strong association with
                    neo-fascist, xenophobic extremist groups (i.e. Le Pen,
                    Zhirinovsky, NPD, NPB, Liga Norte, etc) and those more
                    centrist groups advocating strong curbs on islamism are
                    easily painted by their opponents as equally extreme.  Add
                    to this a historical reluctance to focus on one particular
                    group (for obvious reasons) and you have a problem.  -John
                    \_ Okay, I think I'm mostly in agreement w/ you. I have
                       changed "most" to "many."  My main concern is that
                       either not enough Europeans see the potential problem
                       or that they are too afraid (b/c they would be singled
                       as bigots by other Europeans and targeted by Islamists)
                       to take action. It may also be that many Europeans are
                       to used to the "good life" to take a stand.
                       \_ Take a stand on what exactly? What do you want them
                          to do?
                          \_ Immigration reform, less tolerance for Sharia
                             and Islamic practices, such as forcing women
                             to wear veils and not allowing them to finish
                             schooling, would be good starting points.
                             Also dealing w/ problems such as the Paris riots
                             using necessary force, rather than making stmts
                             that we feel your pain and will do everything
                             we can to make you happy. Appeasement never works,
                             but Europe seems to have forgotten that lesson.
                             \_ Immigration reform is happening, gradually,
                                in a lot of countries in Europe.  I sense that
                                there is a shrinking tolerance for bullshit
                                among voters; Turkey & its impending EU
                                membership, Theo van Gogh, the riots in
                                France and other factors are bringing this
                                sort of thing to a head.  Regardless of
                                whether you support or oppose US foreign
                                policy, it has at least been presented in a
                                very in-your-face manner, which made life
                                _very_ difficult for people in Europe trying
                                to call bullshit on islamists.  -John
                                \_ How did an open US foreign policy make it
                                   had for Europeans to call BS on Islamists?
                                   \_ Whether it's right or wrong, it's been
                                      presented in a very confrontational,
                                      unilateral manner since 2001.  This
                                      removed a lot of sympathy for the US and
                                      tainted anyone agreeing even with the\
                                      good parts of the "war on terror" with
                                      a kind of "American stooge" label, thus
                                      weakening the position of those who
                                      support laying down the whoopass on the
                                      real bad guys.  No it's not rational,
                                      but maybe you see the connection.  The
                                      militant islamists enjoying the relative
                                      freedom of speech & movement they get in
                                      Europe should be countered with total
                                      and consistent determination, with no
                                      room for mediocre bush-league shit like
                                      Iraq.  -John
                             \_ Appeasement of what? They're rioting because
                                they have no jobs and no prospects, and because
                                the cops are running in people simply for
                                being young and non-caucasian. Sounds like the
                                Watts riots to me. The solution there? More
                                economic development so that people have a
                                greater stake in the preservation of the status
                                quo. Also, while I agree that religion should
                                not be an excuse to pull kids out of school,
                                you cannot outlaw burqas if people _want_ to
                                wear them.
                                \_ I do not accept that the reason these
                                   people do not have jobs is because of
                                   failing on the part of the European
                                   people. There are sufficient opportunities
                                   in Europe for people who are willing to
                                   become educated and work hard to build
                                   a life. More economic development is not
                                   the answer to a problem that is not born
                                   from poverty w/o opportunity.
                                   The problem is one of attitude, these
                                   people want to live in Europe, but not
                                   a Europe based on European ideals.
                                   from poverty w/o opportunity. The problem
                                   is one of attitude; these people want to
                                   live in Europe, but not a Europe based on
                                   European ideals.
                                        Re police running in kids for not
                                   being "white," you know the police don't
                                   really run in Indian or Asian kids (even
                                   here in Klan country). I wonder why that
                                   is? Maybe it is b/c we want to actually
                                   become contributing members of society
                                   and try to adapt to our new homes, rather
                                        I also disagree re Burquas. Even
                                   under US law (including Cohen), which is
                                   far more generous than European law, it
                                   is certainly possible to regulate when
                                   and where these garments may be worn.
                                   There are many contexts in which the gov.
                                   could ban the wearning of the garment (ex.
                                   Re police running in kids for not being
                                   "white," you know the police don't really
                                   run in Indian or Asian kids. I wonder
                                   why that is? Maybe it is b/c these kids
                                   want to actual become contributing members
                                   of society and try to adapt to their new
                                   homes, rather than trying to destroy them.
                                   I also disagree re Burquas. Even under US
                                   law (including Cohen), it is certainly
                                   possible to regulate when and where these
                                   garments may be worn.  There are many
                                   contexts in which the government could
                                   forbid the wearning of the garment (ex.
                                   public school teachers - reasonable time
                                   place manner restriction).
                                   \_ Please search through news reports for
                                      more information on the causes of
                                      economic disenfranchisment in Paris.
                                      The "they're poor because they're lazy"
                                      argument has been shown time and again to
                                      be specious in many countries. Also, it's
                                      not just Islamic immigrants who are
                                      having difficulty finding work in Paris.
                                      For comparison, I submit this op-ed
                                      piece from a BBC columnist comparing
                                      the Paris riots (and their roots) with
                                      the Brixton riots of '80s.
                                      http://csua.org/u/hbk
                                      As for
                                      burqas, I would like this debated before
                                      the courts, not just legislated. I can
                                      see the argument in favor of banning the
                                      burqa for public servants/teachers, but
                                      I want a very healthy, very public
                                      debate on it before we ban them. Let any
                                      action we take be based on our ideals
                                      and principles, not just our fear.
                                      Oh, and by the way, let me just state for
                                      the record that I will gladly repel, with
                                      arms, any armed religious coup. If any-
                                      one tries an Islamic (or Christian or
                                      Buddhist) revolution, then yes, it will
                                      then be time to fight.
                        I agree w/ above poster, that some national front types
                 have, in the past, exaggerated the effect of the Islamification
                 of Europe for purposes other than the protection of Europe's
                 freedom and liberty. But, I think that the problem is real and
                 cannot be dismissed as mere politics any more. To do so would
                 be to condemn Europe to the yoke of the Moors.
        \_ You misspelled his name, even though it's in the URL.
                 be to condemn Europe to the yoke of the Moors for a 2d time.
                 [ I thank formatd for its efforts, but I want the paragraphs
                   for readability ]
                 \_ Sorry for mushing your post.  I reformatted to bring the
                    length under 80 columns and didn't intend to squash your
                    paragraphs.  --formatd
                 \_ What the hell is a traditionalist muslim woman doing
                    teaching?
                    \_ Unmarried muslim women often work as teachers at
                       girls schools in many Islamic countries; it is not
                       a "forbidden" occupation. But, even unmarried girls
                       must cover their faces, even while acting as teachers.
                       a "forbidden" occupation for a traditional muslim
                       woman.
2006/10/29-30 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:45030 Activity:kinda low
10/29   Any tips on dealing with the usual nonsense-text-around-embedded-
        images spam?  I'm running postgrey + spamassassin, and it's catching
        about half of them...  -John
        \_ Are you running Razor2, Pyzor, and other services that contact
           a centralized spam repository to filter out even more spams?
           \_ No, I will be.  A gentleman and a scholar, thanks.  -John
        \_ There is something unique about those spams.  It is possible to
           filter them.  I'm not allowed to discuss it further.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:October:29 Sunday <Saturday, Sunday>