Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:November:27 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2007/11/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Finance/Investment] UID:48695 Activity:very high
11/26   Media lavishes attention on bogus Zogby poll showing Hillary trailing
        while ignoring reputable Gallup poll
        \_ More proof of liberal media bias.
           \_ I think you're being sarcastic, but one could make that argument
              since Hillary is probably the farthest right of the Dem
              canidates.  However, what the media really hates is a sure bet.
              A sure-win canidate reduces the drama and reportability.
        \_ Both polls are meaningless since we don't elect the POTUS in a
           general election, otherwise Gore would have won in 2000.  Only
           State by State polls matter, assuming any poll does.  Frankly, most
           of the polls survey such a tiny number of people they're all highly
           questionable.  Show me a poll of 2000+ LV's and I'll pay attention.
           \_ There is one meaningful point--much of Hillary's support is
              because of "electability".  If she's not as electable as
              previously believed, that may erode her support.
              \_ I understand that "electability" is what got Kerry nominated
              \_ I don't actually think that is true, since Edwards is clearly
                 more "electable." While it is true that Hillary supporters
                 often tout her electability, I think it is because they know
                 it is her weakest point and they are trying to pre-empt
                 Obama and Edwards' attacks on the point. FWIW, Obama is
                 probably no more electable than she is. -Edwards supporter
                \_ Why do you support Edwards?
                   \_ I agree with him on the big issues: the Iraq War, which
                      he thinks was a mistake and wants to wind down as quickly
                      as possible; healthcare, which he wants to reform and
                      ensure complete covereage, with the most comprehensive
                      plan of anyone; and campaign finance reform, where he
                      has consistenly taken a stance against the open buying
                      and selling of political favors which is what K Street
                      has become these days. He also would use the bully
                      pulpit to bring attention to the issue of widening
                      income imbalance, which no one else seems to even notice
                      or care about. I disagree with him on a few things, like
                      free trade, but those are not large enough issues for me
                      and he is not enough of a protectionist for me to be too
                      worried. I also think he has a wider appeal than any of
                      the other candidates from either party and because of this
                      might be able to correct our drift away from a dangerous
                      and unhealthy extreme partisanship that has become
                      the other candidates from either party and because of
                      this might be able to correct our drift toward a danger-
                      ous and unhealthy extreme partisanship that has become
                      endemic lately. I know I partly say this just because
                      I grew up poor and white too, and so his story resonants
                      with me, but polls bear out that he has the most support
                      from independent voters of any candidate. He also doesn't
                      poll that badly amongst Republicans, probably because of
                      his southern accent and his open declarations of faith.
                      \_ Why don't people understand that universal healthcare
                         will bankrupt this country in a way that Bush's
                         stupid war could only dream of? Any candidate
                         that advocates such a plan should be voted down
                         just as if he was advocating invading Iran.
                         \_ Why aren't all the Western Democracies bankrupt
                            then? Why don't people understand that nationalized
                            healthcare has worked and saved the overall economy
                            vastly in every place that it has been tried?
                            \_ 1. The US pays their (expensive) defense
                                  bills for them.
                               2. They will be bankrupt soon enough.
                               \_ Point 1 really means the American tax payer
                                  pays for their defense.  We also pay for
                                  their health care to a large degree because
                                  their governments hold down the price of
                                  drugs artificially.
                                  \_ Don't kid yourself. What percentage of
                                     health care is drug costs?
                                     \_ A lot.  You tell me otherwise.  How
                                        much was the drug bill they passed
                                        a year or two ago?  How much will it
                                        balloon up in 10-20 years?
                                        \_ Spending on perscription drugs is
                                           less than 10% of the overall
                                           national cost of health care.
                                           This is not a large proportion.
                                           It will grow unless we do something
                                           drastic, like nationalize health
                                           care spending though, you are right
                               \_ Sure they will. Conservatives have been
                                  saying that about Sweden for at least 60
                                  years now and in that time, they have
                                  actually been closing the gap with America
                                  economically. This is an interesting time
                                  to claim that anyone else is going "bankrupt"
                                  \_ People always point to Sweden. How
                                     about Germany, Japan, and France?
                                     Here's a good article about France:
                                     \_ Sweden has the highest tax rate.
                                        Similar arguments can be made for
                                        Germany and France, though. Japan
                                        actually has a lower tax rate than
                                        the US.
                                     \_ Sweden has the highest oveall tax
                                        burden. You can make the same general
                                        arguement for most of Europe: the
                                        argument for most of Europe: the
                                        economy is doing just fine, in spite of
                                        decades of Conservative insistence that
                                        the mixed model cannot possibly work.
                                        Their per capita income has actually
                                        closed with the US over any period
                                        in the past you care to measure it for.
                                        France is kind of a basket case, but it
                                        has been for a long time. Japan
                                        actually has a relatively low overall
                                        tax burden, slightly lower than the US.
                                  \_ You should ask the Swedes what they think
                                     about the way Sweden runs things.
                                     \_ It's a Democracy, right?
                                     \_ It's a democracy, isn't it?
                                        \_ If you think democratic government
                                           implies satisfaction with the
                                           government, politicians, policy, or
                                           the way the country is going you are
                                           breathtakingly retarded.
                                           \_ argumentum ad hominem
                     \_ What do you think should be done about income
                        \_ Tax the rich til they aint rich no more!
                           \_ Have any actual constructive suggestions?
                              \_ That was it.
                        \_ Spend more on education and job retraining,
                           especially for people displace by globalization.
                           Repair our badly neglected infrastructure, which
                           should employ lots of people and fix some of
                           our transportation issues at the same time.
                           What ideas do you have?
                           \_ The domestic income gap is related to global
                              income gaps and thus ties in to trade issues
                              and currency issues.
                              When you have "jobs Americans won't do" the
                              system is broken. To reduce the income gap you
                              have to either raise the floor or lower the
                              ceiling. Lowering the ceiling seems backwards
                              to me. To raise the floor you have to protect
                              "lower level" jobs to some extent, protect the
                              value of human labor vs. global competition.
                              \_ See, you are a protectionist, too! I am not
                                 fundamentally disagreeing with you, but I
                                 don't think it is very easy, or perhaps not
                                 even really possible to "protect" these
                                 lower skill jobs without screwing up your
                                 economy in the long run. How would you propose
                                 doing it? Tariffs? Closing the border? Trying
                                 to impose labor or environmental standards on
                                 our trading partners? All of these are
                                 problamatic, for different reasons.
                                \_ Well I'm not really advocating
                                   protectionism, but that is what I see it
                                   amounting to if you see imbalance as a big
                                   problem. It's not something I've ever really
                                   been concerned about.
                                   I think we should end guest worker programs.
                                   It does not help Americans. It's a form of
                                   subsidy and protectionism for inefficient
                                   uses of resources. I'm not a fan of H1B
                                   either. We need to invest in our own people,
                                   not bring in foreign workers, unless those
                                   workers are truly unique. H1Bs to do
                                   low-level interchangeable tech work is bad.
                                   letting skilled workers move here
                                   permanently is ok by me but only at a
                                   controlled rate.
                                   We need to let market forces work to find
                                   the proper use of our own workers in our
                                   own land.
                                   For trade though, labor and environmental
                                   standards have to be part of the equation.
                                   Ethical standards can't be allowed to affect
                                   competitive advantage. I think China has a
                                   natural competitive advantage in mfg'ing
                                   in its labor supply, but tax and currency
                                   issues can still hurt us.
                                   issues can still hurt us. I think our
                                   national monetary policy and debt and
                                   inflation issues hurt low-income workers
                                   around the world and contributes to
                                   global income disparity.
                                   \_ I would like you to explain your last
                                      sentence, because I don't see it. How
                                      does our monetary, debt and inflation
                                      policy hurt low-income workers around
                                      the world?
           Inflation causes rise in asset prices without corresponding wage _/
           increases. Since the world economy is historically dollar-driven,
           as dollar-denominated assets such as oil rise in value, poor
           workers lose. They have the least assets. US policy of massive
           deficit spending and monetary supply increases has broad effects
           on the world economy. Dollar inflation cancels out real wage
           value increases for economies dependent on the dollar.
           Here are some articles:
           The author of the second article has tons of other articles,
           all very long and rambling. Have fun.
           all very long and rambling. In that one he eventually talks about
           Hitler. Have fun.
           Honestly though I'm in way over my head with this economics stuff.
           (Unfortunately I get the feeling that most of our politicians are
           even more so.)
           \_ That Asia Times article is really long and mostly disjointed.
              It reminds me a lot of some of Lyndon LaRouche's stuff.
              Have you actually read it? The Ron Paul thing was amusing, but
              mostly wrong or irrelevant. I don't think inflation has the
              effect that you seem to think that it has. The big losers in
              an inflationary environment are people who depend on fixed
              income investments, like retirees. The working poor don't feel
              too much effect, since their paychecks are going up with prices
              in a truly inflationary environment. What we are seeing now is
              not really inflation, but a redistribution of purchasing power.
              This is painful to the US, but probably feels pretty good to
              \_ I at least skimmed most of it. What exactly is wrong
                 in the Ron Paul speech?
                 China has its own income imbalance problem. I don't know if
                 average Chinese feels that great earning a couple bucks a day,
                 producing crap for Americans, with inflation in prices to
                 offset their wage gains. But I don't know, if overall they
                 are gaining real purchasing power then that's good...
                 Real inflation is higher than the official inflation figures.
                 Look at the costs of: education, medical care, drugs, energy
                 over the last couple decades. Wages for the lowest level jobs
                 have not grown much if at all. Food prices are on the rise
                 here and in China.
                 Inflation hits the poor and middle class much more than the
                 wealthy. Their savings are depreciated and the low wages
                 don't keep pace, and they don't have valuable assets.
                 \_ We are not in any kind of inflationary environment. If
                    we were, wages would be going up as well as prices, that
                    is what I keep telling you. Some things have gone up in
                    price, but many things are going down, like just about
                    anything that can be built in China. Real purchasing power
                    for urban Chinese has been going up very fast, but the
                    rural farmers are being left behind. A discussion of what
                    is wrong with the Gold Standard would require a new
                    topic, I am not going to go into it here. Inflation
                    has winners and losers, to be sure, but you can't just
                    make the blanket statement that it hurts the poor more
                    than the rich. Economically, it is actually the opposite
                    of that, because the poor have no assets to lose, while
                    many rich become poor (okay, usually middle class) in an
                    inflationary environment. Things like bonds get killed in
                    inflation. Stocks do poorly as well. Some kinds of hard
                    assets (like land) hold up well, but that is not how most
                    rich people hold their wealth anymore.
                   \_ Do you really think there is no inflation? I think we're
                      done here as you're just making contrary assertions and
                      this thread is gigantic.
                      \_ Do you want me to point you to any of the official
                         or unofficial statistics from the experts who measure
                         inflation? Inflation is low by any reasonable standard,
                         certainly lower than 5%/yr and probably about what
                         the BLS states as official inflation at ~2.5%/yr. I
                         don't think there is *no* inflation, but I think it
                         is very low and you haven't presented any evidence
                         otherwise, other than some anecdotal evidence. You are
                         the one making the unusual claim, you need to provide
                         proof of it. Wages have been going up less than prices,
                         but that is not the definition of "inflation."
                         I think you are just confused about what the term
                         \_ I'm kinda too busy today to look up stuff for you
                            or talk about this more. Try googling for inflation
                            articles. Official government inflation figures are
                            not necessary reflective of real world inflation.
                            Inflation also doesn't act equally on all prices
                            and wages due to the nature of how the money supply
                            works. You also haven't pointed out any specific
                            error in the Ron Paul thing which I'd be interested
                            in. Also, look up inflation in China for example.
                            \_ Dude, I read The Economist every week. You are
                               simply speculating. Real inflation might be a
                               small amount more than reported inflation, but
                               not by much, at least not over the whole
                               economy. Ron Paul's desire to go back to the
                               Gold Standard marks him as a total fruitcake:
                               you lose control over your monetary policy in
                               such a monetary regime and would kill economic
                               growth to boot. No serious economist advocates
                               such a regime and would kill economic growth
                               to boot. No serious economist advocates
                               it, only a bunch of loons. I told you that
                               discussion is waaay to long and involved to go
                               into as an aside, but since you asked...
                              \_ Our monetary policy was primarily used to
                                 allow massive government debt and price
                                 bubbles. I fail to see how the current
                                 situation is good in the long run.
                                 Consumer debt is also the highest ever.
                                 The US economy grew just fine before the
                                 current system.
                                 I also don't accept the "no serious expert"
                                 line of reasoning.
                                 The modern system is to conduct monetary
                                 policy as if no recession can ever be allowed
                                 to occur. But the reality is that this policy
                                 is financed by endless expansion of debt and
                                 inflation. Instead of natural corrective
                                 recessions we are building up to some kind
                                 of major crisis. It's like over-aggressive
                                 fire prevention policy that ends up creating
                                 a giant inferno when the forest gets too dry.
                                 \_ Gloom and doomers are always with us.
                                    We used to have much worse downturns, like
                                    the Great Depression, the Panic of 1983 and
                                    the Panic of 1837, before we went off the
                                    Gold Standard. Only people with a serious
                                    misunderstanding of history and economics
                                    like Ron Paul want to bring back the
                                    "good ole days" of 20%+ unemployment.
                                  \_ The gold standard didn't cause the great
                                     depression. It was irresponsible fiscal
                                     policy. The central bank still has a lot
                                     of power to affect money supply with a
                                     gold standard. Prior to the Great
                                     Depression in the 20's the Fed allowed
                                     credit to grow beyond what could be
                                     supported by reserves, much like the
                                     mortgage crisis today. Result was the
                                     the stock price bubble. When that crashed,
                                     stock price bubble. When that crashed,
                                     it also failed to act. The UK left the
                                     gold standard in 1931, but it had already
                                     been abandoned in WWI. The conditions
                                     leading to the great depression and how
                                     it was dealt with can't be chalked up
                                     to the use of the gold standard.
                        Has any candidate taken a stance for the open buying
                        and selling of political favors?
                        \_ Open?  Sure.  Behind closed doors in smokey
                           rooms?  Not a chance.
                           \_ I'm not sure you parsed my question properly.
                              \_ Uhm, maybe not.
                        \_ Clinton takes a lot of lobbyist money. Edwards
                           does not.
                           \_ I don't particularly like Clinton so I'm focusing
                              on Obama vs. Edwards. I'm personally a
                              conservative-leaning independent. Obama seems to
                              be in a better position to beat Hillary in the
                              primary. Have you considered that in your
                              electability calculations?
                              \_ I don't have any particular reason to
                                 dislike Obama and I actually think he is
                                 a pretty swell guy. I think he is less likely
                                 to win in Nov, but I would certainly vote
                                 for him against any GOP candidate I can
                                 imagine. -Edwards' supporter
                              \_ I think that Edwards has a better chance in
                                 the general election, but I would gladly
                                 vote for either Edwards or Obama. -ES
                        It seems to me that Obama has done more in this area
                        than Edwards.
                        Obama had the wisdom not to authorize the Iraq war in
                        the first place.
                        Free trade is a mostly meaningless term to me. I
                        support it on textbook principle but the real world
                        isn't so simple.
                        \_ Obama didn't vote on the Iraq War as he was in
                           the Illinois State Senate at the time, I believe.
                           \_ Yeah. He spoke out against it in 2002 though:
        \_ "By contrast, I can't find a single example of any reporter or
            commentator on the major networks or news outlets referring to the
            Gallup poll at all, with the lone exception of UPI." Wait, I
            thought UPI was the untrustworthy one with no original reporting?
        \_ The Zogby poll was an internet poll?  Was the number 1 canidate
           Ron Paul?
2007/11/27-30 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:48696 Activity:nil
11/26   Dangers of radiation overblown,1518,519043,00.html
        \_ Maybe.  I'm still not eating any plutonium or having chest xrays
           I don't need.
           \_ They didnt say it was safe, just that many of the casualty
              reports were widely exaggerated.
2007/11/27 [Uncategorized] UID:48697 Activity:nil 61%like:48698
11/26   I don't get it.  Why are the bond insurers down 3-5% when banks
        (except C) are up 3-5%?
2007/11/27-30 [Uncategorized] UID:48698 Activity:nil 61%like:48697
11/27   I don't get it.  Why are the bond insurers down 3-8% when banks/brokers
        (except C) are up 2-5%?
        \_ Read _A_Random_Walk_Down_Wall_Street_
2007/11/27-30 [Reference/Religion] UID:48699 Activity:moderate
11/27 (NYTimes)
        More Muslim riots in Paris--80 police injured
        \_ "The violence was set off by the deaths of two teenagers on a
            motorbike who were killed in a crash with a police car Sunday
            night. The scene, with angry youths targeting the police mostly
            with firebombs, rocks and other projectiles, was reminiscent of
            three weeks of rioting in 2005."
           It's a youth riot, not a Muslim riot. Read deeper.
           \_ Are you fricking kidding? Everyone mentioned in the article
              is Muslim, the neighborhood is predominated by Muslims, and
              in France "youths" are mostly Muslim, too.
              \_ Are French Muslim citizens of working age rioting? Then this
                 is a youth riot, not a Muslim riot. By calling it a Muslim
                 riot, you're labelling it with an ethnic/religious tag that
                 has nothing to do with why these kids are rioting. READ
                 \_ The issues these kids are protesting and their
                    resentment of the French government stem from their
                    treatment as Muslims in France. Not ever single Muslim
                    treatment as Muslims in France. Not every single Muslim
                    in the country has to riot in order for it to be a
                    Muslim riot. How many non-Muslim youths are rioting?
                    Oh, none.
                    \_ According to the news, black Africans are also
                       rioting. Are they also Muslim?
                       \_ Yes.
                    \_ The kids are protesting two of their buddies getting
                       killed by cops. It's not a Muslim issue.
                       \_ This is like saying the Rodney King riots were not a
                          race issue. They were just protesting someone getting
                          beaten by the cops and race wasn't a factor, right?
                          \_ ...? If RK had been a 16 year old kid and the
                             rioters had all been teens and unemployed youths,
                             would you have called it a race issue?
                             \_ Yes, if they were all black and the white
                                kids weren't rioting.
        \_ And they are using shotguns:
           Can you imagine what would happen here if rioters starting
           using guns?
2007/11/27-12/3 [Recreation/Activities, Transportation/Bicycle] UID:48700 Activity:high
11/27   So how do you keep the stupid RIDE BIKE people off of the trails? Is
        it legal for them to ride on hiking trails? I've almost been killed
        a few times now by bikers barreling down quiet mountain trails that
        they thought they owned. I hate them.
        \_ So you support bike-only trails?  Great!  -tom
           \_ I do. Why not? What's happening now doesn't work. I don't
              think I support as many of those as bikers would hope,
              though, but why not have some small percentage devoted to bikes?
              \_ There are plenty of trail-sharing plans out there (such as
                 odd-even days); the problem is that the anti-bike crowd
                 doesn't want to share trails or give any access to bikes.
                 In most places it works just fine, it's only in California
                 that it's still a big problem, and that's due to the actions
                 of a small handful of NIMBY, "we were here first" types. -tom
                 \_ I think it's because of the actions of a lot of
                    reckless riders, many of which I have encountered.
                    \_ Bikers don't want to run into hikers any more
                       than hikers want to get run into.  In most
                       cases, conflicts can be reduced by improving
                       the trail design.  But the political issue is
                       that a small handful of hikers simply want no
                       bikes on any trails.  Right now, I'm being
                       stalked by a long-time anti-bike nut, who came
                                       \_ I recommend giving him a
                                          soda account.
                       by my office twice, sent mail to my boss and to
                       the chief of staff of the chancellor's office.
                       My crime?  Riding a unicycle on a trail.  I
                       didn't even ride past him; I dismounted and
                       walked past.  There's nothing that can be done
                       to reduce complaints from someone like that.  -tom
        \_ Many of those trails were originally created by RIDE BIKE people,
           then later used by hikers.  Why do you think *you* own them? -emarkp
           \_ damn, emarkp is sort of my motd ron paul.  There's a ton
              of stuff ron paul stands for that should be poison to all
              good liberals everywhere, but he speaks his mind and doesn't
              say anything too delusional so lots of grassroots progressives
              think he is awesome.
           \_ The trails are maintained by the government and I don't
              think I own them, but I am not killing anyone by using them.
              Maybe motorcycles should be allowed on them, too. It's a free
              country, right?
              \_ Actually, the trails are mostly maintained by volunteers, and
                 by far the largest volunteer group is mountain bikers.  -tom
              \_ Neither are all the bicyclists killing people.  Rude people
                 are rude people, on bike or on foot. -emarkp
                 \_ Point is that bikes don't belong on walking trails
                    just like people shouldn't walk in the bike lane. You
                    must be one of the bike fuckers, huh?
                    \_ Nope, never ridden a bike on a trail in my life.  I do
                       bike to work however.  You may have seen my comments in
                       the past calling Critical Mass, "Thugs on Wheels".
                       Where are the trails defined as "walking trails"?
                       \_ Well, they weren't built for bikes originally.
                          Here is a site that attempts to be fair to both
                          sides of the issue, but it is true that the
                          hiking trails are becoming unsafe for hikers and
                          I would be in favor of keeping bikes off of them
                          given my close calls with bikers. I don't even
                          think I could safely bike many trails in a
                          leisurely manner what with the people screaming
                          down the hillside at 30mph. At least as a walker
                          I can jump out of the way. If I was on a bike
                          I'd be screwed. BTW, people who take their dogs
                          on trails without leashes should be banned, too.
                          In Palo Alto:
                          \_ I wasn't aware of so-called "gravity bikers".
                             That *does* sound scary. -emarkp
           \_ Downhill bicycle racers should stick on trails far, far
              away from everyone else.  Actually if you just let them
              race for a while, they eventually die, that sport is the
              most dangerous I've ever witnessed.
        \_ Bring a spike strip with you next time you hike. USE FEET!
        \_ some trails are marked to disallow bikes.  If you don't like sharing
            trails with bikes, stick to those.   Unless othewise marked,
            the bikers have just as much right to be there as the hikers.
        \_ some trails are marked to disallow bikes.  If you don't like
           sharing trails with bikes, stick to those.  Unless othewise
           marked, the bikers have just as much right to be there as the
        \_ Maybe bikers should behave the same as horse back riders.  You
           could potentially ride pretty fast on a horse, but that would
           be dangerous.  Could be almost as dangerous as fast bikes.
           \_ horses, at any speed, are more dangerous than bikes, at any
              \_ That's clearly false and you are stupid for suggesting it.
                 \_ You clearly don't know anything about horses.
        \_ I find it amusing that the bikers complain about how rudely cars
           treat them (Critical Mass) but when someone slower than themselves
           is put at risk by their actions, it's "stay off the trails!" and
           "who said you hikers own them?!".
           \_ nice straw man.
        \_ (flickr)
              \_ Not at all.  I honestly find it amusing.  There's no strawman
                 here.  If you're a hypocritical biker, wear it with pride.
                 \_ Right because all cyclists are exactly the same and in
                    fact all the same people, whether they are black clad
                    bicycle messengers in Critical Mass or gortex clad
                    Marin yuppies mountain biking. They even switch to
                    khaki's and button down shirts when they impersonate
                    mild-mannered commuters. Those dastardly villians!
                    \_ not to mention, no one is saying "stay off the trails"
                    \_ not to mention, no biker is saying "stay off the trails"
                       \_ That would take a lot of audacity as mountain
                          biking has only been popular for 30 years. Give
                          them more time, though, and they'll become brave
                          enough to get there. They're already touting
                          numerical superiority as they drive everyone
                          else away.
                          \_ keep beating that straw man.
                    \_ I love the motd.  You replied to my "this isn't a
                       strawman" by strawmanning me again.  I'm your biggest
                       fan, Strawman Debate Guy.  Please strawman me again.
                       \_ Do you honestly think that "bikers" are a unified
                          group who think and act in unison? Are you really
                          that simple minded? If not, give me even one example
                          of your hypocritical biker, or admit that you just
                          made it all up.
2007/11/27-30 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:48701 Activity:high
11/27   I'm using select to do a nonblocking check to see if a single socket
        has anything to read off it.  Problem is, I can have up to 12228
        file descriptors, and Linux fd_set only supports up to 4096.  Any idea
        what I can do about this?  (Or a better solution?) -jrleek
        \- 1. who are you
           2. i am busy this week and you didnt mention language
              [i am not fmailar with stuff like java nio] but you might
              look at this ucb/cs paper ... matt welsh et al "a design
              framework for highly scalable systems" as well as
              some of the discussion around libevent.
              see the links and graph at
              \_ Ah, the program is all in 'C', but it needs to run on multiple
                 Unix variants.  -jrleek
                 \_ Have you profiled it?  Can you port to python or another
                    scripting language with reasonable performance (alas, not
                    ruby at this time)? -dans
                    ruby at this time)?  At, a hot startup in
                    downtown San Francisco (we're hiring!), we open AND
                    close millions of socket connections every day. -dans
                    \_ How could I profile it?  This isn't a webserver, it's a
                       server that accepts, and acts on, messages based on a
                       protocol I wrote.  (Over TCP).  In this case, I need to
                       know about the performance of a tiny part of the code.
                       I'm not sure how to get that information. gprof, for
                       example, doesn't seem to allow me to choose just a small
                       section to profile, and lacks the necessary resoluton
                       anyway. -jrleek
                       \_ What you want is a profiling tool that doesn't work
                          via random sampling but that lets you add profiling
                          hooks into your code.  I've written some homegrown
                          things like this in the past to profile very tight
                          loops in massive projects, but I'm sure there are
                          plenty of better tools out there if you poke around.
                       \_ Hint: leek >> dans. Why are you listening to his
                          \_ Well, I have a lot to learn about network
                             programming, so I'll take what I can get.  Thanks
                             for the compliment though. -jrleek
                             \_ Alas, I don't have any better suggestion that
                                gprof, though there must be better tools out
                                there.  Another alternative would be to compile
                                the source, look at the ASM output and try to
                                hand optimize.  Consider that a WAY last
                                resort, and not worth pursuing unless you're
                                already a fan of ASM.  Two problems though:
                                there.  Another alternative would be to
                                compile the source, look at the ASM output
                                and try to hand optimize.  Consider that a
                                WAY last resort, and not worth pursuing unless
                                you're already a fan of ASM.  Two problems
                                a) it doesn't really scale if you need to
                                target multiple platforms and b) it's actually
                                tough to beat a *good* modern optimizing
                                compiler even if you really know what you're
                                doing. -dans
                            \_ UPDATE: I just asked one of the guru's and
                               he responded, 'books?  what are those' see:
                               It's more of a jumping off point, but it will
                               at least give you tools to work with and
                               references potential implementations. -dans
                          \_ Hint: In the last three years have you...
                             a) worked on a project with me?
                             b) read or hacked any code I've written?
                             c) used a service based on my code or systems I
                             Unless you can answer yes to at least two, you
                             have NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
                             Why two?  Because I built the systems half (as
                             opposed to the network/routing half) of the
                             anycast DNS rig that runs the roots for over
                             fifty ccTLD's including, amusingly enough, .cx.
                             Thus, the answer to c) is almost always yes.
        \_ Use poll() instead of select, or do multiple selects with several
            different fd_sets .  -ERic
        \_ Can you increase the max size of fd_set in /proc?  I'm guessing not,
           but couldn't hurt to look.  Also, using select on that many file
           descriptors will probably result in sucky performance. -dans
           \_ Do you know where I can read up on getting really good
              performance out of the POSIX tcp codes?
              \_ I wish I did.  Most of what I know is a collection of voodoo
                 and lore.  It's not super complicated, basically you want to
                 use non-blocking sockets and poll.  Also, avoid threads
                 unless you know what you're doing.  Writing correct threaded
                 code is hard, writing high-performance threaded code is even
                 harder.  On Linux, processes are basically threads, but with
                 processes you don't have to handle any locking crap. -dans
        \_ epoll (linux) or kqueue (bsd)
           \_ Unfortunately, it needs to run on AIX (IBM's Unix) as well.
              \- arent you that fellow at livermore? if this is going to
                 run on ibm big iron, maybe if you have a "user services"
                 group they will know this. cray and ibm have some people
                 group they will know this. cray and ibm have had some people
                 stationed here as part of nersc. i am familar with assos,
                 fleebsd, and solaris [/dev/poll] but not aix. btw some of
                 the select vs poll people seem to be unaware of many
                 places where the interface is different, but under the hood
                 they are the same thing. --psb
                 fleebsd, and solaris [/dev/poll] but not aix. --psb
                          \- i have never heard of/used this [i no longer
                             work on aix] but check this out:
                             often i would think if there was something
                             that was obscure it probably wouldnt be that
                             good, but in this case 1. ibm has a history
                             of sitting on good things that fail due to
                             obscurity 2. i'm not in the loop [no pun
                             intended] any more on ibm stuff --fmr ibm person
                 \_ We do have such a group, but they don't know much about
                    TCP.  It's kind of an odd thing to be doing.  I wrote this
                    TCP implementation as a proof-of-concept, but we've never
                    gotten to money to do something better, so I just keep
                    trying to improve it incrementally. -jrleek
2007/11/27-30 [Reference/Tax] UID:48702 Activity:low
11/27   I have a lot of used, but clean and high quality clothing. It's
        not Prada or anything, but lots of name brands like Express are
        included. I usually donate this to charity, but is there a good
        way to sell it? Is selling stuff like that worth your time on
        eBay or Craiglist? There's probably a couple thousand dollars worth
        (retail price).
        \_ My wife takes stuff like this to Buffalo Exchange first and then
           gives the rest to Goodwill (and gets a receipt for tax deduction
           purposes). -ausman
        \_ If you have a high enough tax burden, you could donate the clothes
           and write them off, getting full value for the clothes for the
           \_ Can I really write them off at full retail value?
              \_ sure, if you don't get audited.  -tom
                 \_ I seem to recall that last year the IRS was threatening
                    to audit suspicious goodwill donations much more
                    aggressively, due to the number of people abusing the
                    deduction in this manner. -jrleek
        \_ My wife takes all of our used clothing to Buffalo Exchange first
           and then donates the rest to Goodwill. Goodwill will give you
           a receipt for their fair market value (not new value) that you
           can use to write off taxes. -ausman
           \_ Does Buffalo Exchange actually buy anything or is it a waste
              of time? They seem picky about what they will take. I
              usually donate to Salvation Army, because Goodwill in my
              area is difficult to deal with (they get more donations than
              they can handle and they act like it).
              \_ Sure they're picky, they only buy what they can sell at a
                 markup, but my wife has made some money there.  They usually
                 only take a little of what you bring it, but it's more than
                 you get from goodwill.  -jrleek
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2007:November:27 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>