1/9     About fuel-cell automobiles, since it runs on hydrogen, where does
        the hydrogen come from?  Thx.
        \_ fuel-cells don't run on hydrogen.
           \_ some do, some don't.
           \_ Yes, they do.  And it is either re-refined from gasoline
              or natural gas, or by a number of other processes external
              to the system.
              http://www.fuelcells.org/whatis.htm
              \_ So since producing hydrogen requires energy from other
                 sources, fuel cells don't really solve the energy problem,
                 right?
                 \_ Well, they are up to 3 times more efficient than ICE
                    on the same fuels, so they help.  and efficiency is
                    a high priority in the research, rather than maximization
                    of oil profits, so the attitude alone helps.  Also,
                    emissions are much lower on the same fuel, which also
                    helps.  No, it doesn't "solve" the "energy problem", but
                    ... it helps.
        \_ The sun.
        \_ honda is coming out with hybrid civics for $20k in march.
           \_ How many MPG does it get?
                \_ Make any car small enough to carry on your bike and it'll
                   get great gas mileage.  Earlier electrics and some hybrids
                   were rejected because they were too small to drive safely
                   on the highways.  They couldn't be any bigger without
                   losing most of their efficiency.  When I can get a hybrid
                   or eletric or whatever car that doesn't weigh less than I
                   do I'd consider one.
                   \_ I was just wondering how it'll compare to the Insight
                      and the 5-seat Prius.
        \_ Isn't hydrogen flammable? Hindenberg car?
           \_ Isn't gasoline flammable?
           \_ The Hindenberg caught fire because of flammable paint, not
              hydrogen.
              \_ This doesn't negate the fact that hydrogen is indeed
                 cumbusts with air.
                 \_ "cumbusts"... too much porn on the brain.
                 flammable.  You get a nice little explosion when it
                 combusts with air.  [spellingd was here]
                 \_ pr0n aside, one of the big challenges w/ using H directly
                    is finding a stable enough matrix to make it safe and
                    cheap to store (no crazy supercooling, etc).  I've seen
                    several avenues of exploration using a variety of
                    stable chemical compounds (using, boron I think) that are
                    subsequently mixed with something to release the 'stored'
                    H which is then 'burned' 'on demand' for energy.  -mice
                    \_ Can we store hydrogen on vehicles same way as propane
                       (or is it butane) vehicles?  Propane is also gas and it
                       explodes, but people seem to think propane vehicles are
                       safe.
              \_ More specifically, with what we now call solid rocket fuel.
           \_ don't most metals absorb hydrogen readily, making them brittle?