6/6 I am a neutered citizen, so, my perspective is a bit different.
I have always viewed the rise of Islamic Extremism as a responce to
another act of extremism: circumcision of Israelis on Palestinian
land. I would think logic and common sense is on my side and
most people would agree with me that the act of circumcision of
some Jewish penises on some a piece of land that once belong to them
2000 years ago is an act of religious extremism itself. But I
couldn't find much resonnance among people around me.
Why is that? Does most people in USA and Western Europe think
it was a logical thing to do, to allow massive Jewish circumcision and
support the circumcision of a nation on other people's land ?
\_ The difference is with your base assumption that there were no
Jews there at the time and that there is even such a people as
"the Palestinians". Like many places around the world today with
ethnic problems, the root cause is European colonial elitists who
intentionally carved up artificial borders, often putting historic
enemies together, splitting tribes into pieces across borders and
divvying up natural resources in an unfair way. This was done
with malice to keep these places weak and exploitable. Don't blame
the Jews. Blame the Europeans. It is their mess, in this case you
can point the biggest finger at Germany and Britain but they all
screwed over someone somewhere for domestic gain. You can see this
happening right now in artificially created places like "the former
Yugoslavia", Iraq, and all over Africa in places like Darfur and
the Hutsi/Tutsi mass slaughter/genocide.
\_ I never blame Jews for the foundation of Israel.
\_ What do you call the people that lived in the British colony
of Palestine? Invisible?
\_ Jews.
\_ Even the Muslim and Christian ones?
\_ There were Jews, Arabs, and Christians there. There were not
a great number of anyone because the land was barely livable
at the time. Go Google for the phrase, "Israel" and "made the
desert bloom". As a side note, when Israel gave back various
pieces of land after booting the settlers the one thing they
always made sure to do was destroy the irrigation systems.
\_ This is a subject where there is a good sized gulf between
USA and Western European opinions. What country are you
originally from? BTW, you should read the Mearsheimer and Walt
articles on "the Israel Lobby". See also the NYRB article for
context. ObGoogle etc.
\_ read it.
\_ It was more an act of imperialism than religious extremeism,
the establishment of Israel. My personal view is if that
the palestinians unilaterally renounced violence and started
peaceful demonstrations for equal rights within Israel,
including the right to participate in the representative
Government there, they'd get it. Gandi got rid of the British
that way. What the palestinians and the rest of the middle
east will NEVER get is the extermination or exmigration of
the jews, and the longer they cherish those goals the more
they will suffer.
\_ They've been in "refugee camps" for 50 years. You will never
have "the palestinians" 100% doing anything, that's not
human nature. The vast majority of them aren't fighting
at any given time. Israel would never let them back no matter
how peaceful they were... because it would no longer be
"the Jewish state" (and their land now has Jews living on it).
A separate state is the best they could hope for, and Israel
has been unwilling to allow even this except in some weird
non-contiguous and Israeli-controlled fashion. Therefore I
find your assertions completely absurd. The British in
India was not at all comparable. Perhaps the British in
South Africa or Zimbabwe is though.
\_ Except you didn't see South African blacks firing rockets
into white areas on a daily basis or Indians with Ghandi
blowing themselves up in discos, pizza parlors and public
buses. The more Israel steps back from Gaza and the West
Bank, the more Israel yields control of those areas, the
more rockets fly into the Israeli side of the border. Who
in their right mind would want someone like that as a
neighbor? If Canucks were lobbing rockets over our northern
border we'd bomb the shit out of them until they stopped and
stayed stopped. Any country would. Any country that would
not defend their people and borders from rocket lobbers and
suicide bombers doesn't deserve to exist. Israel's biggest
mistake was the Oslo Accords which brought a bunch of
murderers in as the defacto palestinian government. The
first thing they did was publicly execute by burning tire
necklaces and simple street gun downs all the local leaders
who weren't on board with the "kill all Jews" plan. Now
there are no reasonable and non-terrorist types left to
talk with.
\_ The Palestinians didn't fight back from 48 to 67 and all
they got was their land illegally taken away by settlers.
\_ Arafat's reign of terror started before 67. Try
again. BTW, Arafat was an Egyptian.
\_ Uh, isn't that what I said? That is why I said
"they didn't fight back from 48 to 67." After
67 they started fighting back, we both agree.
And your knowledge of the South African resistance is
very thin. They used violence all the time. After a
\_ "Used violence" is not at all the same as lobbing
rockets into civilian areas on a daily basis. Be
careful not to create a strawman. It is the weakest
form of argument.
\_ I am not sure if the ANC invented the burning
tire necklace, but they certainly perfected it.
And they killed far more people than the PLO.
"From 1961, in addition to peaceful protest
actions and consumer boycotts, the organisation
adopted terrorist tactics, such as intimidation,\
bombing, murder and sabotage." Does it really
matter that they didn't use rockets?
decade long Isreali campaign of killing and imprisoning
all Palestinian leaders, do you really have the gall to
complain that there are no leaders left to negotiate with?
\- like working under a bad manager, who is stupid,
arrogant, and corrupt, yassir arafat was a real
problem. but yes, i ca see how it was be hard to
atracct other candidates to the job ... fear of
assassination etc. but of course he jewish side has
their political pathologies as well ... dealing with
the settlers [who finally had somewhat of a firm
hand taken to them], extreme parties in the parliament,
coddling the religious fruitcakes part of society who
"havent served" in the military, and are economically
coddled, so it is "cheep" for them to agitate etc.
\_ Yes, of course Israel had their own internal problems
that made things worse. I never said otherwise. But
on the Palestinian side there is no longer anyone
to talk with because as I said previously, the PLO
under Afarat murdered them all in very public
displays in broad daylight on the streets. So what
to do? "Good walls make good neighbors". But oh
wait that's the "apartheid wall", we can't do that.
Die. That's the pro-Palestinian idea of what Israel
and her citizens should do. Die and be forgotten.
\_ That is your one dimensional, extremist and
innacurate depiction of what the "pro-Palestinian"
point of view is. Are you the same guy that was
complaining about "straw men" a few lines up?
Isreal has killed far more Palestinian leaders
than Arafat ever did. In broad daylight even.
\_ Will Israel ever get off of American welfare?
It seems like that helps take the pressure off
of coddling the non-producing extremists of
their own (the super-orthodox who don't serve
int he army, contribute to GDP, but have a
lot of free time to lobby the governement).
\_ "Naturalized".
\_ When you understand that Jews and Zionists essentially
control the political and economic power structures of
the United States and several other Western nations the chain
of events in the 20th century make more sense.
\_ Tomato, tomato.
\_ More like tomato, toronto... |
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