8/15 So I just had an interesting discussion with my one and only
Republican acquaintance regarding my new Prius. He is perplexed as to
why I bought an overpriced, under-horsepowered Prius when I could have
afford a Lexus GS300 which is quieter, has a much smoother ride, a
much better stereo system, and a LOT more horsepower. Besides, it's
not like I couldn't afford gasoline. I explained to him that it's
like planting a tree, I'm reducing oil dependency by 40% relative to
my old vehicle which is good for everyone in the long term. He
rolled off his eyes and said "You bought the car because you really
care about the environment? Yeah whatever." I hope most Republicans
are as insensitive and stupid as this person, because that is just
plain sad.
\_ With longer ranged missiles for the next round of unprovoked
strikes into Israel.
\_ In a sense he's correct. The tragedy of the commons and the
desire for the majority to maximize consumption means that if
enough Priuses are bought to actually lower oil prices, more
Hummers/SUVs will be bought to offset the advantages. Even if
the United States consumes less other nations will just consume
more, thanks to the desire by almost every nation to maximize
resource consumption because of the reigning economic paradigm
of eternal maximum growth. To summarize, we're going to burn
up every drop of oil, lump of coal, cord of wood, etc., until
the Earth is a hellish wasteland incapable of supporting life.
If I'm lucky I won't live to see that.
\_ We are, but we need to be ready for the day that oil isn't
feasable. Technology has recently gotten to the point
where other energy sources are cost effective (if just
barely). Early adopters exist. Prius users are just that
for hybrid tech.
\_ Technology is part of the problem, more technology means
more energy & resource problems.
\_ Sex is part of the problem, more sex means more people
problems. But masturbation ... the best!
\_ Well hybrids aren't "other energy sources" they just
improve fuel efficiency. For many years now you could
buy small cars that were a lot more fuel efficient than the
average. And there are other things like direct injection
and diesels that can help (but we have high sulfur fuels
here in the US which makes some of these techs hard to use).
Basically I don't see the big deal with hybrids. They don't
really solve a problem. If they are cost-effective wrt to
fuel costs then fine, but I wouldn't pretend that buying
one is saving the planet.
\_ Then what "other engrgy sources" would solve the problem?
\_ Nukular
\_ Actually we might be close to "peak Uranium" as well
prices have been rising quickly in the last few
years, and breeders and thorium reactors are not
yet commercially viable.
\_ No they're just not politically viable; too easy
to make weapons grade fissionables with them.
\_ and oh puhleeze, uranium is so common they're
using it instead of lead in military ammunition.
\_ wikipedia: depleted uranium -- that's what
they use in 'military ammunition'
they use in 'military ammunition', ie, you
clearly don't know what you're talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
\_ Why do you hate Jimmy Carter?
\_ Technology is part of the problem, more technology means
more energy & resource problems.
\_ Sex is part of the problem, more sex means more people
problems. But masturbation ... the best!
\_ Nukular energy will run out also.
\_ Not in the lifetime of anyone who cares.
\_ Well yeah not fossil fuels. Nukes, wind, tides, solar,
geothermal, blah blah... better mpg is a start. But the
Prius is also designed for efficiency besides being a
hybrid and sacrifices some practicality. Also hybrids
they say cost more energy to produce. So maybe a
conventional tech economy car would be better. But
then you couldn't flaunt your eco hipness. Do you also
wear those colored charity bracelets?
\_ VW Lupo already gets 78 MPG without any fancy
hybrid tech but it's a subcompact death trap.
\_ Are all subcompacts == death traps in your book
or the Lupo in particular? They also have a Polo
TDI that seems to get 52 mpg with decent torque.
\_ URL for hybrids costing more energy to produce
please? Thx.
\_ Well, they cost "more" to produce in general,
\_ They cost "more" to produce in general,
due to batteries, computer controls, and the
electric motor + components. The electric motor
has large permanent magnets: how are they
magnetized? I don't have a URL breaking down
official production resources but I doubt that
actually exists, I guess Toyota would have to
publish it or maybe a component supplier. There
may be extra disposal costs at EOL but I don't
know if that's significant.
Also, for driving highway distances in a hybrid
you also lose most of the regenerative braking
benefit and rely on the gas engine all the time.
At which point you are just carrying around
a dead weight electric drive. I dunno. I'm not
know if that's significant. I'm not
against hybrids but I hate the tax and carpool
lane incentive bullshit.
\_ ob alien invasion claiming stewardship of earth from humans is
more interesting
\_ The tragedy of the commons doesn't mean that the situation is
intractable; it just means that cooperation is needed to
effectively use the resource (in this case, the entire planet).
-tom
\_ True but good luck on that one. The ob alien invasion above
is more likely to happen.
\_ Exactly and that kind of cooperation doesn't seem very
likely in the current climate.
\_ Republican SUV drivers are working their damndest to
change the climate as fast as they can.
\_ If the U.S. signs on to Kyoto and starts to put its
might into global issues instead of throwing it into
things like Operation Clusterfuck, world cooperation
will happen. In fact, it's already happening, except
that the U.S. wants to pretend that we're still an
\_ but Democrat SUV drivers are wholesome goodness.
\ any gas-powered car drivers are contributing to
the problem, but the 'efficient' car owners are
just trying to delay the inevitable. Embrace your
doom and prepare to move on. Anything else is living
in denial.
\_ True but good luck on that one. The ob alien invasion above
is more likely to happen.
\_ If the U.S. signs on to Kyoto and starts to put its
might into global issues instead of throwing it into
things like Operation Clusterfuck, world cooperation
will happen. In fact, it's already happening, except
that the U.S. wants to pretend that we're still an
\_ Are all subcompacts == death traps in your book
or the Lupo in particular? They also have a Polo
TDI that seems to get 52 mpg with decent torque.
\_ The $1-$2 trillion we're flushing down the toilet
in Iraq could have really helped restructure the
energy grid to start using distributed
small scale renewable energy generation on a
national basis. Oh well I guess we'll spend it on
starting a civil war in the country and then getting
the fuck out once it gets too messy.
\_ I thought we were there for the oil.
\_ Where's that $1 - $2 trillion number come from?
What is your source of renewable small scale
energy? Do I get a tax payer provided solar
system for my home and a Prius?
island. -tom
\_ Uh, Kyoto leaves China & India free to do what they
want. Even if the rest of what you say is true about
the US some how managing to convince/coerce/bully/buy-
off the rest of the world without them all cheating,
Kyoto isn't the treaty that would help reduce energy
consumption world wide. I'm not sure what you refer to
when you say "In fact, it's already happening". Which
"it" is happening?
\_ Global cooperation on environmental problems.
Kyoto is a first step; if the U.S. signed on,
pressure on China and India would be immense,
but with the U.S. out, there's no leverage. -tom
\_ They did sign on. They don't have to do anything
of any note. What leverage?
\_ No point in US signing on to Kyoto in its current
form until it actually covers everyone. The only
solution to the tragedy of the commons is for
*everyone* to cooperate, with no exceptions.
\_ They did sign on. They don't have to do anything
of any note. What leverage?
\_ food hoarding @ Berkeley co-ops == tragedy of the commons
\_ There's no reason to hoard food at the co-ops. There was
always tons of money for food. If your house doesn't have
enough food then can your food manager and elect someone
who will buy more food. It's amazing how much more food a
co-op house can have when the food manager is told to buy
more. And no, you won't break the budget.
\_ i'm talking about hoarding of favorite foods, not food
in general / people starving by living in USCA co-ops
... but it sounds like your house was better ...
\_ Republican SUV drivers are working their damndest to
change the climate as fast as they can.
\_ Exactly. I didn't want to hoard the crap. I only
hoarded the good stuff, of which there was never
enough.
\_ Nonsense. I bought food for my house for a semester
and managed the budgets for another. There was tons
of cash on a per person basis to buy all the goodies
everyone could possibly stuff down their throats and
feed their grubby friends too. Without blowing the
budget. Hoarding is caused by an artificially low
amount of goodies which causes the food buyer to buy
less goodies which, etc, etc. I did the opposite
and there was plenty to go around. I don't know if
hoarding stopped but there was no reason to hoard.
Stupid food buyers who didn't understand the most
basic things about human nature pissed me off.
\_ what is this mythical co-op at Cal with unlimited
goodies?
\_ All of them actually. The budgets are done on
a per person basis. The size of the house
means almost nothing in terms of how much
goodies per person are available. It isn't
mythical. It is/was your food buyer's
incompetence and stupidity. I was there, I
bought, I did budgets, I saw all the numbers
every week for several semesters.
\_ Seconded--a lot of the inefficiency when
I was there came from people not having
much experience in buying. At CZ, we
regularly had several pots of tofu that
went uneaten, and crates of tomatoes going
bad that were great slingshot ammo. Same
went for other budgets--I was the first
Davis maintenance guy who didn't snort his
budget up his nose, and had to pretty much
replace the entire tool stock, catch up on
years of neglect, and still had money left
over. -John
\_ I'm wondering if it's a factor of the time.
I was in the co-ops 93-97. How about you?
\_ Consider the argument "yeah I can afford the $$ for gas but
I'd rather spend it on nice dinners. Plus I get hot eco-bunny
chicks." -John
\_ Hot eco bunny chicks?
\_ I'm ad-libbing. Work with me here. Anyway, he wouldn't
know that there's nouch thing. -John
\_ I was there 93-96 and I hardly think it'd
have improved. -John
\_ Something I've been wondering about it, it's well known that
you won't recoup the cost of the Prius over some other compact
car in gas over 10 years. How much of that extra cost
refelects the cost of the extra resources that went into the
Prius? How accurately does the cost reflect the cost of the
resources, and therefore the amount of oil used to get the
resources?
\_ Consider the argument "yeah I can afford the $$ for gas but
I'd rather spend it on nice dinners. Plus I get hot eco-bunny
chicks." -John
\_ Hot eco bunny chicks?
\_ I'm ad-libbing. Work with me here. Anyway, he wouldn't
know that there's nouch thing. -John
know that there's no such thing. -John
\_ d00d, the prius is $15K cheaper than a gs300. the prius is also
underpriced for its technology - it's only "overpriced" compared
to (non-hybrid) corollas/camry's
\_ just to comment on your first sentence, Consumer Reports found
that TCO of an '06 Prius after 5 years could be lower than the
non-hybrid equivalent *if* you counted the federal tax credit.
not making any comment about rest of your post.
\_ Well duh, we all knew already that all republicans are evil and
stupid and selfish and what are you doing talking to one anyway?
\_ You can't count a tax credit. That just means other people
are paying for your car. If everyone bought one and got a
tax credit then everyone would be paying full value through
their taxes instead of their car dealer.
\_ true, but not everyone buys one ... hardly that
\_ "You can't count highway subsidy. That just means other
people (e.g. taking BART) are paying for the highways you
drive on (e.g. I-880, I-580)."
\_ Yes, public transit is not subsidized at all.
\_ Car owners are paying for the highways. The number of
adults who don't own a car and therefore are tax
victims is trivial. This is exactly the same as if
\_ Call me trivial, but it only takes
one of me to tell you to go fuck yourself.
\_ *laugh* Ok. You're trivial. Thank
you for adding your well informed and
pithy commentary. Have a nice day!
all everyone got the Prius tax credit: we'd all just
pay the rest of the burden via taxes instead of the
dealership. *Someone* is paying for the Prius, the
fact that it isn't the Prius owner doesn't mean the
car is cheaper. There's no free lunch in life.
\_ Car owners != people who commute by driving solo
every day. I own two cars but I commute by Transbay
buses and my wife by BART.
\_ Fine, whatever, I'll amend, "The number of adults
who don't drive a car and therefore are tax
victims is trivial". Now your turn, tell me you
own two cars but never drive them. If you drive
them you are getting money off your purchase price
through tax subsidies to the highway system. It
doesn't have to be a work commute. Any driving
at all is subsidized.
\_ You mean "the number of spoiled white suburban
adults like me who don't drive a car is
trivial." Guess what: not everyone is a
spoiled white suburbanite. -tom
\_ 0.8 cars per capita. I am guessing most
are not owned by spoiled white
suburbanites and that even underprivileged,
black, urbanites own cars at roughly the
same rate.
\_ You're right--you're just guessing.
On the facts, you're wrong. -tom
\_ Call me trivial, but it only takes
one of me to tell you to go fuck yourself.
\_ *laugh* Ok. You're trivial. Thank
you for adding your well informed and
pithy commentary. Have a nice day!
\_ url for who owns how many cars?
\_ The facts like 0.8 cars per
capita? That's a fact. If black
urbanites instead own 0.5 cars
per capita do you feel vindicated?
How you ever been to the ghetto?
Did you notice a shortage of cars
compared to anywhere else? The
cars are just older.
\_ d00d, the prius is $15K cheaper than a gs300. the prius is also
underpriced for its technology - it's only "overpriced" compared
to (non-hybrid) corollas/camry's
\_ Well duh, we all knew already that all republicans are evil and
stupid and selfish and what are you doing talking to one anyway?
\_ I hope all tree-huggers buy into this superstition that their
own shit don't stink. As if using a hybrid really helps - the
batteries for one are merely pollution re-distribution. It'll
be a nice awakening when fifty years down the line, when every
stupid so-called pro-enviromental law pops the worlds economies
and still nature is none the better. Keep smokin' that shit.
\_ Yes, I think you are a minority. Most people respond to economic
incentives (e.g. some would probably rather plant a tree and then
continue driving SUV because they can). In Europe, midsized cars
like Accord, Passat, and 3-series are sold with 1.6 and 2.0L
engines, or diesels. Why? Gas tax, engine size tax, etc. People are
responding to the incentives. I don't think car-induced pollution
will significantly decrease unless the government steps in to create
such incentives to make people drive smaller cars with smaller
engine displacements, and not to mention do something about the SUVs
most of which seem to be used a urban grocery-getters.
\_ ob alien invasion claiming stewardship of earth from humans is
more interesting
\_ In Hong Kong, auto license fee is based on engine displacement,
not the value of the car. So someone owning a Ferrari with a
small engine pays less than someone driving a big SUV. (Not that
big SUVs are popular there.)
\_ The economics of buying a larger vehicle would have to be pushed
so far as to make them available only to the super rich to keep
all those sub urban shoppers out of them. IMO they're already
too expensive to buy and maintain yet people keep shelling out
for them. Even at 70-100k you still see plenty of hummers on
the road which sure as hell can't be worth it.
\_ I ain't no Republican, but I would never buy a stupid, overpriced
Prius. I'll take my Hummer and BMW anyday. -average American male
\_ You're right--you're just guessing.
On the facts, you're wrong. -tom |
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