Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:August:15 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2006/8/15-17 [Recreation/Media] UID:44004 Activity:nil
8/14    So I'm watching South Park now, the old episode, Super Hero
        Best Friends. They showed an image of Mohammad, with flames coming
        out of his hands. What's up? I thought they don't show images
        of Mohammad anymore.
        \_ Not when they build up to it, apparently.
        \_ They didn't show the image of Mohammed in the Family Guy episode
           just to show how cowardly people can get. Plus, manatees.
        \_ He's cute.  -average Muslim girl
           \_ That's why the Cylons hate us.
2006/8/15 [Politics/Domestic] UID:44005 Activity:nil
8/15    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14348539
        Really bad news for jblack, Conservatives, and Republicans
2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:44006 Activity:nil
8/14    Is there any racial issue within the Hispanic group?  E.g. do the
        Hispanic blacks and Hispanic whites consider themselves different, just
        like the English-speaking blacks and whites?
        \_ Yes.  Lighter people always look down upon the darker, lower class
           people.  -albino
        \_ There are many places where "Indios" are not allowed.  They will
           tell you "It's not racism", but it is.
           \_ http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=indio,+ca
        \_ Ever notice that everyone on Mexican TV is white?
           \_ I don't watch Mexican TV, sorry.
           \_ I'm on the Mexican radio...
        \_ Yes, there are. Not just skin color either.
        \_ Read Octavio Paz's collection of essays, Labyrinth of Solitude.
           Much good information here concerning Mexico's struggle with its
           own history as a former colony and the legacy of race.
        \_ I don't know of any large group of people that doesn't teach or
           encourage ethnic superiority. Just look at China, Hong Kong,
           Taiwan, Malasia, Singapore. For example certain types of Taiwanese
           people are taught or hinted to be superior over other types of
           Taiwanese. Certainly, the division is even sharper amongst the
           different Chinese ethnicities in the pacific. Heck, even left
           liberals think they're superior over the country music beer
           drinking gun toting right wing neocon nuts, and vise versa.
           I think it is just a nature of human beings to discriminate and
           hate one another.
           \_ That's why the Cylons hate us.
           \_ I don't watch Mexican TV, sorry.
           \_ I'm on the Mexican radio...
              \_ We must resolve to better understand our Cyclons brothers so
                 we can have a mutually beneficial discussion of our
                 differences and through our diversity of opinion thereby
                 grow stronger for it.  Call back the fighters and power down
                 the cannons so they understand we're not a threat so we can
                 have peaceful dialog.  We must have done something to them
                 for them to hate us so.  I feel so guilty about my ancestor's
                 cruelty to the oppressed Cylon peoples!  We must make amends!
2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:44007 Activity:nil
8/15    Open source project adds "no military use" clause to licence
        http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/08/14/1438204
        Actual licence addition even dumber than title suggests.
        \_ We are fighting them in CyberSpace so we don't need to fight them
           ITRW.
        \_ I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.  It's cute.  It's naive.
           \_ Cute and naive.  Like a typical Berkeley undergraduate female
              trying fellatio for the first time. -average Berkeley male
        \_ "Both developers do agree about one aspect of their license clause.
           It is based on the first of science fiction writer Isaac Asimov's
           Three Law of Robotics, which states, "A robot may not harm a human
           being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm."
           That, they say, is a good thing, "because the guy was right," Tegel
           says, "and he showed the paradox that almost any technological
           development has to solve, whether it is software or an atom bomb.
           We must discuss now what ethical problems we may raise in the
           future."   Unfortunately, they totally miss the point of Asimov's
           Three Laws of Robotics.  If they had actually read the stories,
           they'd know his point was that 3 simple laws are insufficient to
           determine the 'right' thing to do in a complex world.
2006/8/15-17 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:44008 Activity:nil
8/14    In XML scripts in Ant, I can use the value of a variable by doing
        "${foo}".  How do I use the value of an environment variable?  Thx.
        \_ http://ant.apache.org/manual/CoreTasks/property.html
           under Examples, search for environment
        \_ <property environment="ENV" />
           <includepath path="${ENV.JAVA_HOME}/include/" />
           \_ Thanks!!!  I'm new to Ant and I have to guess my way through some
              existing script.  --- OP
2006/8/15-17 [Science/Battery, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44009 Activity:nil
8/15    How ofter are you suppose to change your car battery?
        \_ Lead-acid batteries last about 5 years if well cared for.
           That means, it is never discharged more than 50% capacity,
           and is kept reasonably cool.  Depending on where you park
           (hot sunny spot?), how often you leave lights on, etc., the
           outcome will be different.  Just test it if you want to be
           sure.  Otherwise, carry a jump cable and wait until you get
           stuck somewhere.  And don't forget to recycle.
        \_ My battery's rated 60 months although I have to honestly say that
           I've never reached 60 months in the past 4 battery changes I've
           done in my life. I usually run them down, which is usually after
           3-4 years, call AAA when I need a jumpstart, and get a new one.
        \_ When it dies.  -average American male
2006/8/15-17 [Computer/Theory] UID:44010 Activity:nil
8/15    Dubya's speaking skills: 10 years ago and now ...  If he was a
        racehorse I think he would have been put out of his misery a long time
        ago ...
        http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1019.htm
        \_ A mexican friend of mine claims that Fox's command of Spanish is
           even worse than Bush's command of English.  My friend speaks good
           enough English, in my opinion, to be able to fairly compare the
           two(his English is much better than Bush's).  Can any Spanish
           speakers confirm or deny his claim?
        \_ Maybe it's the overhyping of the video captions, but I just don't
           see it as that big a deal.
           \_ Yeah, since when were communication skills and command of
              the English language a relevant part of the job of being
              President of the United States?
              \_ yeah, I caught that was/were eror right after checking
              \_ yeah, I caught that was/were eror right after checkingu
              \_ yeah, I caught that was/were error right after checking
                 in the motd
                \_ Um, not a big deal? That he could speak in complete and
                   COMPOUND sentences and 10 years later can barely utter
                   two words without tripping up?
        \_ Uh, so? 10 years ago I knew how to do Calculus. Now I don't.
           Also, running the state of Texas is a much simpler job than
           running the entire US.
                \_ If doing Calculus was vital to doing your job, then it
                   would be bad if you no longer knew how to do it.  Are you
                   arguing that public speaking is not an important skill to
                   have when you are President of the United States?
                   \_ Yeah, no shit.  He has less public speaking ability
                      than the average PTA member.
        \_ Uh, so? 10 years ago I knew how to do Calculus. Now I don't.
           Also, running the state of Texas is a much simpler job than
           running the entire US.
        \_ The 10-year-old clip looks like he's reading off a teleprompter.
            -tom
           \_ I don't think he's reading off a teleprompter. He's looking
              away from the camera probably because he's addressing the moder-
              ator. If he were reading off a teleprompter he'd be looking
              directly at the camera.
        \_ So what.  I've heard worse.  Since when was proper syntax and
           grammar a requirement for holding office?  -Arnold Schwarzeneggar
           \_ Because the Governator needs to be Recalled.
2006/8/15-17 [Consumer/CellPhone] UID:44011 Activity:nil
8/15    Other than Nokia 8801 (a bit pricey at $650) are there any other
        cell phone *currently* on the market with a steel shell? My old
        Motorola is steel and I don't want to replace it with plastic
        crap. I need a GSM phone. Thanks!
        \_ No.  -luddite
2006/8/15-17 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:44012 Activity:nil
8/15    Republican Party loving Dell is recalling Dell laptop batteries:
        See if your battery is affected: link:www.dellbatteryprogram.com
        \_ ob testing kchang's auto-classifier
           \_ Test passed. My pigeons are working hard:
              http://csua.com/?entry=faq1    -kchang
        \_ I have IBM, so ha!  Buy American!  -average American male
2006/8/15-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44013 Activity:nil
8/15    If anyone is interested in working at Lawrence Livermore National
        Lab, now or in the future, contact me.  I would also recommend
        LLNL's internsip program.  I can help with that too. -jrleek
        \_ Maybe if you explain why working at LLNL is a cool place to work
           at people would start inquiring more. For example, what are some
           of the reason why people should ditch private sectors that
           offer lots of opportunities and flexibilities and offer lucrative
           stock options, near 6 digit salaries, located in the heart
           of Silicon Valley, San Francisco, and convenient places for
           positions at LLNL, far from civilization in the middle of nowhere?
           Secondly, there are many talented Asians who simply refuse to work
           at any US government agency these days given its history,
           recent fuck-ups in the news, and perceived hostility towards
           minories (which are agreed upon in Asian communities). What has
           the US government done recently to improve its poor perception
           in these minority communities? Why should minorities quit their
           nice jobs in the vally to go to LLNL?
           \_ I hate Bush, right wing nuts, skinheads, Republicans, and the
              US government.                             -Minority male
              \_ Hi troll.
           \_ I'm not him but a job at LLNL should be pretty secure and
              you get a nice pension. You could also find cheaper housing in
              the Livermore area probably. I don't work for the gov't but
              working on research projects in a secure job can't be all bad.
              \_ Hi troll.
           \_ Livermore is far from civilization?  Wha?
           \_ LLNL pay seems pretty comparable to other tech companies.
              Most CS Phds here make over 100,000.  I make 80,000, with a
              BS and 2 years experience.  -jrleek
           \_ I hate Bush, right wing nuts, skinheads, Republicans, and the
              US government.                             -Minority male
              \_ Nice. What is the ethnicity make-up, and what is it doing
                 to promote the image that the US government does NOT hate
                 Chinese and other minorities?
                 \_ Ethnicity isn't an issue in hiring.  Being able to get a
                    security clearance is.  Your skin color does not have any
                    effect on your ability to get clearance.
                    \_ Thanks, you said that more clearly than I was
                       apparently capable of. -jrleek
                 \_ Sorry, I wasn't quite finished with that post, I got
                    interuppted.  I admit, the lab is pretty white. I
                    generally ascribe this to the "must be a citizen"
                    requirement, and related fallout, but I'm not really
                    sure.  I know and work with a number of asians
                    (mostly Chinese), but I can't really say much about
                    image issues in asian communities.  I guess I could
                    ask them.  -jrleek
                 \_ Yes, I believe that is exactly the target
                    demographic.  That, and anti-war socialists who don't
                    mind working for the military-industrial complex.
           \_ So, San Jose is kind of my personal version of Hell, so I
              consider that reason enough to not get a job there.
              Livermore, is short on big city ammenities, like good
              restraunts. -jrleek
           \_ As for why you might like working here, it's a very stable
              job, with a good pension.  If you think scientific computing
              on massively parallel super-computers is cool (I do), you
              might like it here.  If not, probably not. I have a lot of
              time flexibility, I can come and go when I please, and
              work at home at will.  This really depends on your project
              though. Oh, and no one EVER asks me to work more
              than 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.  It's a good job
              for someone with a family. (like me) -jrleek
        \_ No commies, huh?  And you're posting here?
           Out of curiousity, do you have like a finger-prick
           test for communism?
           test for communism? <This post is in response to what was
           posted on jobs@csua, not the motd.>
           \_ Sheesh, humor circuits disengaged, huh?  The Communist line
              was tounge-in-cheek, but obviously LLNL doesn't hire people
              who advocate the violent overthrow of the US governement.
              -jrleek
           \_ Livermore is far from civilization?  Wha?
              \_ But will you hire libertarians who sit on their ass all day
                 at their government job preaching small government and low
                 taxes on the motd?
                 \_ Yes, I believe that is exactly the target
                    demographic.  That, and anti-war socialists who don't
                    mind working for the military-industrial complex.
                 \_ Ethnicity isn't an issue in hiring.  Being able to get a
                    security clearance is.  Your skin color does not have any
                    effect on your ability to get clearance.
                 \_ If you ever worked for government and saw the waste
                    involved you'd quickly turn into a small government
                    libertarian if you were intellectually honest about it.
                    The government doesn't need more money.  They need a lot
                    less waste.
                    \_ Thanks, you said that more clearly than I was
                       apparently capable of. -jrleek
                    \_ What's funny is that I've been working for the federal
                       government now for 8 months, and I've actually done
                       just that.  I told them I'm quitting by the end of
                       2006.  Yes, they need less waste, and in my opinion,
                       my life as a government employee counts as waste.
                       I don't agree with the drooling worship of giant
                       corporations practiced by most libertarians, particularly
                       since most of those corporations are in bed with big
                       government anyway.  But as far as government waste goes,
                       i'm right with them now.  I've gotten in fights with the
                       secretaries about the fact that they pay about ten times
                       what I need for food when I travel, and their arguement
                       was that it would cost more to fight the system and
                       try to get a "special" low per diem than to just
                       take the money, and that I should just go eat at the
                       most expensive place I can find.  So I've decided to
                       keep track of my travel expenses, and give the difference
                       between what I spend and what I get to government fraud
                       and waste watchdog organizations.
                       \_ I found the per diem only slightly higher than I
                          needed on travel.  If I ate McDonald's and nothing
                          else maybe it'd be 10x but I care more than that
                          what I put in my body.  The real waste is elsewhere.
        \_ I would apply for the job, but my grades suck. -average American male
                       \_ I find the per diem isn't really enough and neither
                          is the hotel. I usually end up paying out of
                          pocket on travel to avoid staying at a dump, and
                          that's with the (very good) government rates at
                          hotels. If you like Motel 6 and Subway for dinner
                          then I guess it's too much.
                          \_  120$/day just for food, in Paris, when the hotel
                              provides good free breakfast and the host
                              institution provides lunch?  A factor of ten was
                              an excageration, but if you really need more than
                              20 dollars to get something better than Subway
                              for dinner in Paris, than you're an idiot.
                              Perhaps I have higher per diems than you.
2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44014 Activity:low
8/15    See, you had nothing to worry about.  The outcome of the
        Israel-Lebanon conflict was entirely predictable.  That is, all
        powerbrokers were unanimous in not wanting to draw Syria/Iran into it,
        risking a regional war, although there was plenty of propagandizing /
        throwing mud in people's faces along with the dead civilians:
  7/13    Regardless of who's right or wrong (good luck on that), predictions
          on the outcome of the Israelis hitting Lebanon?  -John
          [\_ ...]
             \_ There are three objectives:
                (1) Occupy a Israel-dictated buffer zone (again),
                (2) Indicate that future kidnappings will be met with a
                    disproportione use of force (you'll hurt more than me), and
                (3) Getting the soldiers back.
          \_ The most likely outcome is a temporary ceasefire, with Israel
             holdingonto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
             Hezbollah fires another rocket into Israel while the press writes
             "wasn't there supposed to be a ceasefire?"
        \_ No.  I don't think anyone predicted that Israel's government would
           chicken out and leave themselves looking like weak and inept
           idiots.  Now Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and every other
           psychotic crackpot with weapons in the Middle East is talking
           tough and spoiling for another round.  The weakness and dithering
           on the part of Olmert's government only guaranteed that there will
           be another war, it will be sooner than later and it will make this
           Lebanon thing look like the minor skirmish it was.  That's my
           prediction. And oh yeah, *when* Iran gets nukes they will hit
           Israel who will respond by destroying as much of the Middle East
           as possible from Iran to Libya.
           \_ you sure that Iran will nuke Israel *when* it gets nukes?
              the moment Israel is nuked is the moment other govts lose their
              favorite scapegoat.  I also think the U.S. will finish any job
              that Israel does not as far as nuking the aggressor.
              that Israel does not as far as taking out the nuclear capability
              of the aggressor, whatever it takes.
              \_ Scapegoat?  They want Israel destroyed much more than they
                 want a scapegoat.  Whoever manages that will be the hero of
                 the muslim world for all time up there with Saladin and maybe
                 even Mohammad himself.  I make no predictions about what the
                 US will do if nukes go off in the ME.
                 \_ The Iranian leadership wants Israel destroyed much more
                    than it wants a scapegoat?  I disagree with that.  Random
                    terrorist group and their supporters want that?  Okay.
                    Who controls future nukes?  The former.
                    I predict Iranian nukes, if Iran ever gets them, will be
                    used as a "if you fuck with us, we'll really fuck you over"
                    deterrent, and securing of those nukes will be at or better
                    than Pakistan.
                    \_ So you hear all the crap the Iranians are spewing from
                       the highest levels of their government about destroying
                       Israel and think they're bluffing?  Iran doesn't need
                       nukes to hold Israel off.  Israel isn't doing anything
                       to the Iranians.  Iran is not at risk from Israeli
                       attack.  I have no idea how you came to that conclusion
                       but time will tell.
                       \_ When you have mutually assured destruction, what
                          other conclusion can you come to?
                          \_ You have a religious regime that doesn't care if
                             they die.  They welcome it.  They preach it.  You
                             do not have mutually assued destruction's cold
                             war era effect going on with Iran.  Without MAD
                             the only conclusion you can come to is they mean
                             what they say when they say they're going to
                             destroy Israel.  They don't mean at the next
                             Olympics.  They mean they're going to destroy
                             Israel.  Why don't you believe what they say?
                             Why would they say what they've said on a regular
                             basis if they didn't mean it?  *When* Iran gets
                             nukes Israel will be nuked.  Whatever is left of
                             the military is going to nuke everything in the
                             entire Middle East without regard for the niceties
                             of "oh gosh it was an unknown terrorist with a
                             bomb on a truck, we'll do an ivnestigation and
                             get back to you on it".
                             \_ I will grant you that the theocracy in Iran
                                wants and continues to advocate the destruction
                                of Israel. However, they also want the
                                continuation of their precious Iranian way of
                                life. The mullahs, imams, and ayatollahs know
                                they have a very sweet thing going now in their
                                locked down theocracy, and they have no
                                intention of messing it up. Their first goal is
                                the preservation of their own rule, followed by
                                the destruction of Israel and restoration of
                                Palestinian rule; it is due to their fear of
                                unilateral destruction that they continue to
                                move through proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah, Sadr)
                                rather than act directly (i.e., deployment of
                                the Iranian army). When Iran gets nukes, expect
                                a period of retrenchment followed by a
                                resurgence in their support of their proxies.
                                Oh, and a hell of a lot more rhetoric.
                                \_ Really it all comes down to just how crazy
                                   do you think the Iranians really are.  I
                                   look at how they run their internal affairs
                                   as well as foreign and they're either insane
                                   or incompetent to an insane degree.  Either
                                   way I think we can agree that a nuclear
                                   armed Iran is just about the worst thing
                                   possible for the world as a whole, not just
                                   the region even if it doesn't come down to
                                   a nuclear fire storm.
                                   \_ Right. I think it comes down to whether
                                      you think they're suicidal-crazy or just
                                      crazy-crazy. Cf. Kim Jong Il: crazy, but
                                      also very much attached to his life and
                                      the preservation thereof.
              \_ doubt it'll be Iran, but rather some other nameless terrorist
                 group that 'got them from somewhere' that remains unnamed,
                 to leave israel with nobody specific to retaliate against.

              of the aggressor, whatever it takes.
                 \_ for that matter, nameless terrorist group might as well
                    get the nuke from pakistan / n korea / russia
  7/13    Regardless of who's right or wrong (good luck on that), predictions
          on the outcome of the Israelis hitting Lebanon?  -John
          [\_ ...]
             \_ There are three objectives:
                (1) Occupy a Israel-dictated buffer zone (again),
                (2) Indicate that future kidnappings will be met with a
                    disproportione use of force (you'll hurt more than me), and
                (3) Getting the soldiers back.
          \_ The most likely outcome is a temporary ceasefire, with Israel
           holding onto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
             holdingonto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
             Hezbollah fires another rocket into Israel while the press writes
             "wasn't there supposed to be a ceasefire?"
                 \_ Why do you think Israel invaded Lebanon? It's to show
                    that they are not above taking revenge on governments
                    supporting 'nameless terrorist groups'. I think Israel
                    would use it as a chance to nuke every fucking enemy
                    they ever had, involved or not.
                    \_ I don't think there will be an 'Israel' left post-nuke
                       so much as a few subs with MERVS and whatever nukes
                       survive buried out in the sand where the soliders
                       have orders to fire if Telaviv is ever blown up.  But
                       my call is that every arab capitol plus Mecca, Medina,
                       and the key oil fields and refinery/shipping cities are
                       all dust.
                       \_ It's a really small step from that to the end of
                          human civilization as we currently understand it.
                          All of the scenarios for "limited" nuclear war are
                          pretty dicey.  Can you imagine what would happen to
                          the world if a nuclear war leveled the middle east?
                          You thought gas was expensive before...
                          Or are you just looking forward to being Mad Max?
                          \_ Yes, I can imagine all that.  I didn't say I'm
                             looking forward to any of it.  I don't base my
                             predictions on what I'd like to happen.  I base
                             them on what I believe will happen given my
                             understanding of the situation and the people
                             involved.  What is the point of making a bogus
                             prediction based on what I'd like to happen?
                             That isn't a prediction, it is just sticking
                             one's head in the ground. I don't have to like
                             it to believe it.
2006/8/15-17 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44015 Activity:kinda low
8/15    So I just had an interesting discussion with my one and only
        Republican acquaintance regarding my new Prius. He is perplexed as to
        why I bought an overpriced, under-horsepowered Prius when I could have
        afford a Lexus GS300 which is quieter, has a much smoother ride, a
        much better stereo system, and a LOT more horsepower. Besides, it's
        not like I couldn't afford gasoline. I explained to him that it's
        like planting a tree, I'm reducing oil dependency by 40% relative to
        my old vehicle which is good for everyone in the long term. He
        rolled off his eyes and said "You bought the car because you really
        care about the environment? Yeah whatever." I hope most Republicans
        are as insensitive and stupid as this person, because that is just
        plain sad.
        \_ With longer ranged missiles for the next round of unprovoked
           strikes into Israel.
        \_ In a sense he's correct.  The tragedy of the commons and the
           desire for the majority to maximize consumption means that if
           enough Priuses are bought to actually lower oil prices, more
           Hummers/SUVs will be bought to offset the advantages.  Even if
           the United States consumes less other nations will just consume
           more, thanks to the desire by almost every nation to maximize
           resource consumption because of the reigning economic paradigm
           of eternal maximum growth.  To summarize, we're going to burn
           up every drop of oil, lump of coal, cord of wood, etc., until
           the Earth is a hellish wasteland incapable of supporting life.
           If I'm lucky I won't live to see that.
           \_ We are, but we need to be ready for the day that oil isn't
              feasable.  Technology has recently gotten to the point
              where other energy sources are cost effective (if just
              barely).  Early adopters exist.  Prius users are just that
              for hybrid tech.
                \_ Technology is part of the problem, more technology means
                   more energy & resource problems.
                   \_ Sex is part of the problem, more sex means more people
                      problems.  But masturbation ... the best!
              \_ Well hybrids aren't "other energy sources" they just
                 improve fuel efficiency. For many years now you could
                 buy small cars that were a lot more fuel efficient than the
                 average. And there are other things like direct injection
                 and diesels that can help (but we have high sulfur fuels
                 here in the US which makes some of these techs hard to use).
                 Basically I don't see the big deal with hybrids. They don't
                 really solve a problem. If they are cost-effective wrt to
                 fuel costs then fine, but I wouldn't pretend that buying
                 one is saving the planet.
                 \_ Then what "other engrgy sources" would solve the problem?
                    \_ Nukular
                       \_ Actually we might be close to "peak Uranium" as well
                          prices have been rising quickly in the last few
                          years, and breeders and thorium reactors are not
                          yet commercially viable.
                          \_ No they're just not politically viable; too easy
                             to make weapons grade fissionables with them.
                          \_ and oh puhleeze, uranium is so common they're
                             using it instead of lead in military ammunition.
                             \_ wikipedia: depleted uranium -- that's what
                                they use in 'military ammunition'
                                they use in 'military ammunition', ie, you
                                clearly don't know what you're talking about.
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
                       \_ Why do you hate Jimmy Carter?
                \_ Technology is part of the problem, more technology means
                   more energy & resource problems.
                   \_ Sex is part of the problem, more sex means more people
                      problems.  But masturbation ... the best!
                       \_ Nukular energy will run out also.
                          \_ Not in the lifetime of anyone who cares.
                    \_ Well yeah not fossil fuels. Nukes, wind, tides, solar,
                       geothermal, blah blah... better mpg is a start. But the
                       Prius is also designed for efficiency besides being a
                       hybrid and sacrifices some practicality. Also hybrids
                       they say cost more energy to produce. So maybe a
                       conventional tech economy car would be better. But
                       then you couldn't flaunt your eco hipness. Do you also
                       wear those colored charity bracelets?
                        \_ VW Lupo already gets 78 MPG without any fancy
                           hybrid tech but it's a subcompact death trap.
                           \_ Are all subcompacts == death traps in your book
                              or the Lupo in particular? They also have a Polo
                              TDI that seems to get 52 mpg with decent torque.
                       \_ URL for hybrids costing more energy to produce
                          please?  Thx.
                          \_ Well, they cost "more" to produce in general,
                          \_ They cost "more" to produce in general,
                             due to batteries, computer controls, and the
                             electric motor + components. The electric motor
                             has large permanent magnets: how are they
                             magnetized? I don't have a URL breaking down
                             official production resources but I doubt that
                             actually exists, I guess Toyota would have to
                             publish it or maybe a component supplier. There
                             may be extra disposal costs at EOL but I don't
                             know if that's significant.
                             Also, for driving highway distances in a hybrid
                             you also lose most of the regenerative braking
                             benefit and rely on the gas engine all the time.
                             At which point you are just carrying around
                             a dead weight electric drive. I dunno. I'm not
                             know if that's significant. I'm not
                             against hybrids but I hate the tax and carpool
                             lane incentive bullshit.
           \_ ob alien invasion claiming stewardship of earth from humans is
              more interesting
           \_ The tragedy of the commons doesn't mean that the situation is
              intractable; it just means that cooperation is needed to
              effectively use the resource (in this case, the entire planet).
               -tom
              \_ True but good luck on that one.  The ob alien invasion above
                 is more likely to happen.
                \_ Exactly and that kind of cooperation doesn't seem very
                   likely in the current climate.
                   \_ Republican SUV drivers are working their damndest to
                      change the climate as fast as they can.
                 \_ If the U.S. signs on to Kyoto and starts to put its
                    might into global issues instead of throwing it into
                    things like Operation Clusterfuck, world cooperation
                    will happen.  In fact, it's already happening, except
                    that the U.S. wants to pretend that we're still an
                      \_ but Democrat SUV drivers are wholesome goodness.
                         \ any gas-powered car drivers are contributing to
                           the problem, but the 'efficient' car owners are
                           just trying to delay the inevitable.  Embrace your
                           doom and prepare to move on. Anything else is living
                           in denial.
              \_ True but good luck on that one.  The ob alien invasion above
                 is more likely to happen.
                 \_ If the U.S. signs on to Kyoto and starts to put its
                    might into global issues instead of throwing it into
                    things like Operation Clusterfuck, world cooperation
                    will happen.  In fact, it's already happening, except
                    that the U.S. wants to pretend that we're still an
                           \_ Are all subcompacts == death traps in your book
                              or the Lupo in particular? They also have a Polo
                              TDI that seems to get 52 mpg with decent torque.
                        \_ The $1-$2 trillion we're flushing down the toilet
                           in Iraq could have really helped restructure the
                           energy grid to start using distributed
                           small scale renewable energy generation on a
                           national basis.  Oh well I guess we'll spend it on
                           starting a civil war in the country and then getting
                           the fuck out once it gets too messy.
                           \_ I thought we were there for the oil.
                           \_ Where's that $1 - $2 trillion number come from?
                              What is your source of renewable small scale
                              energy?  Do I get a tax payer provided solar
                              system for my home and a Prius?
                    island.  -tom
                    \_ Uh, Kyoto leaves China & India free to do what they
                       want.  Even if the rest of what you say is true about
                       the US some how managing to convince/coerce/bully/buy-
                       off the rest of the world without them all cheating,
                       Kyoto isn't the treaty that would help reduce energy
                       consumption world wide.  I'm not sure what you refer to
                       when you say "In fact, it's already happening".  Which
                       "it" is happening?
                       \_ Global cooperation on environmental problems.
                          Kyoto is a first step; if the U.S. signed on,
                          pressure on China and India would be immense,
                          but with the U.S. out, there's no leverage.  -tom
                          \_ They did sign on.  They don't have to do anything
                             of any note.  What leverage?
                       \_ No point in US signing on to Kyoto in its current
                          form until it actually covers everyone.  The only
                          solution to the tragedy of the commons is for
                          *everyone* to cooperate, with no exceptions.
                          \_ They did sign on.  They don't have to do anything
                             of any note.  What leverage?
           \_ food hoarding @ Berkeley co-ops == tragedy of the commons
              \_ There's no reason to hoard food at the co-ops.  There was
                 always tons of money for food.  If your house doesn't have
                 enough food then can your food manager and elect someone
                 who will buy more food.  It's amazing how much more food a
                 co-op house can have when the food manager is told to buy
                 more.  And no, you won't break the budget.
                 \_ i'm talking about hoarding of favorite foods, not food
                    in general / people starving by living in USCA co-ops
                    ... but it sounds like your house was better ...
                   \_ Republican SUV drivers are working their damndest to
                      change the climate as fast as they can.
                    \_ Exactly. I didn't want to hoard the crap. I only
                       hoarded the good stuff, of which there was never
                       enough.
                       \_ Nonsense.  I bought food for my house for a semester
                          and managed the budgets for another.  There was tons
                          of cash on a per person basis to buy all the goodies
                          everyone could possibly stuff down their throats and
                          feed their grubby friends too.  Without blowing the
                          budget.  Hoarding is caused by an artificially low
                          amount of goodies which causes the food buyer to buy
                          less goodies which, etc, etc.  I did the opposite
                          and there was plenty to go around.  I don't know if
                          hoarding stopped but there was no reason to hoard.
                          Stupid food buyers who didn't understand the most
                          basic things about human nature pissed me off.
                          \_ what is this mythical co-op at Cal with unlimited
                             goodies?
                             \_ All of them actually.  The budgets are done on
                                a per person basis.  The size of the house
                                means almost nothing in terms of how much
                                goodies per person are available.  It isn't
                                mythical.  It is/was your food buyer's
                                incompetence and stupidity.  I was there, I
                                bought, I did budgets, I saw all the numbers
                                every week for several semesters.
                                \_ Seconded--a lot of the inefficiency when
                                   I was there came from people not having
                                   much experience in buying.  At CZ, we
                                   regularly had several pots of tofu that
                                   went uneaten, and crates of tomatoes going
                                   bad that were great slingshot ammo.  Same
                                   went for other budgets--I was the first
                                   Davis maintenance guy who didn't snort his
                                   budget up his nose, and had to pretty much
                                   replace the entire tool stock, catch up on
                                   years of neglect, and still had money left
                                   over.  -John
                                \_ I'm wondering if it's a factor of the time.
                                   I was in the co-ops 93-97.  How about you?
           \_ Consider the argument "yeah I can afford the $$ for gas but
              I'd rather spend it on nice dinners.  Plus I get hot eco-bunny
              chicks."  -John
              \_ Hot eco bunny chicks?
                 \_ I'm ad-libbing.  Work with me here.  Anyway, he wouldn't
                    know that there's nouch thing.  -John
                                   \_ I was there 93-96 and I hardly think it'd
                                      have improved.  -John
        \_ Something I've been wondering about it, it's well known that
           you won't recoup the cost of the Prius over some other compact
           car in gas over 10 years. How much of that extra cost
           refelects the cost of the extra resources that went into the
           Prius?  How accurately does the cost reflect the cost of the
           resources, and therefore the amount of oil used to get the
           resources?
           \_ Consider the argument "yeah I can afford the $$ for gas but
              I'd rather spend it on nice dinners.  Plus I get hot eco-bunny
              chicks."  -John
              \_ Hot eco bunny chicks?
                 \_ I'm ad-libbing.  Work with me here.  Anyway, he wouldn't
                    know that there's nouch thing.  -John
                    know that there's no such thing.  -John
        \_ d00d, the prius is $15K cheaper than a gs300.  the prius is also
           underpriced for its technology - it's only "overpriced" compared
           to (non-hybrid) corollas/camry's
           \_ just to comment on your first sentence, Consumer Reports found
              that TCO of an '06 Prius after 5 years could be lower than the
              non-hybrid equivalent *if* you counted the federal tax credit.
              not making any comment about rest of your post.
        \_ Well duh, we all knew already that all republicans are evil and
           stupid and selfish and what are you doing talking to one anyway?
              \_ You can't count a tax credit.  That just means other people
                 are paying for your car.  If everyone bought one and got a
                 tax credit then everyone would be paying full value through
                 their taxes instead of their car dealer.
                 \_ true, but not everyone buys one ... hardly that
                 \_ "You can't count highway subsidy.  That just means other
                    people (e.g. taking BART) are paying for the highways you
                    drive on (e.g. I-880, I-580)."
                    \_ Yes, public transit is not subsidized at all.
                    \_ Car owners are paying for the highways.  The number of
                       adults who don't own a car and therefore are tax
                       victims is trivial.  This is exactly the same as if
                                  \_ Call me trivial, but it only takes
                                     one of me to tell you to go fuck yourself.
                                     \_ *laugh*  Ok.  You're trivial.  Thank
                                        you for adding your well informed and
                                        pithy commentary.  Have a nice day!
                       all everyone got the Prius tax credit: we'd all just
                       pay the rest of the burden via taxes instead of the
                       dealership.  *Someone* is paying for the Prius, the
                       fact that it isn't the Prius owner doesn't mean the
                       car is cheaper.  There's no free lunch in life.
                       \_ Car owners != people who commute by driving solo
                          every day.  I own two cars but I commute by Transbay
                          buses and my wife by BART.
                          \_ Fine, whatever, I'll amend, "The number of adults
                             who don't drive a car and therefore are tax
                             victims is trivial".  Now your turn, tell me you
                             own two cars but never drive them.  If you drive
                             them you are getting money off your purchase price
                             through tax subsidies to the highway system.  It
                             doesn't have to be a work commute.  Any driving
                             at all is subsidized.
                             \_ You mean "the number of spoiled white suburban
                                adults like me who don't drive a car is
                                trivial."  Guess what: not everyone is a
                                spoiled white suburbanite.  -tom
                                \_ 0.8 cars per capita. I am guessing most
                                   are not owned by spoiled white
                                   suburbanites and that even underprivileged,
                                   black, urbanites own cars at roughly the
                                   same rate.
                                   \_ You're right--you're just guessing.
                                      On the facts, you're wrong.  -tom
                                  \_ Call me trivial, but it only takes
                                     one of me to tell you to go fuck yourself.
                                     \_ *laugh*  Ok.  You're trivial.  Thank
                                        you for adding your well informed and
                                        pithy commentary.  Have a nice day!
                                      \_ url for who owns how many cars?
                                      \_ The facts like 0.8 cars per
                                         capita? That's a fact. If black
                                         urbanites instead own 0.5 cars
                                         per capita do you feel vindicated?
                                         How you ever been to the ghetto?
                                         Did you notice a shortage of cars
                                         compared to anywhere else? The
                                         cars are just older.
        \_ d00d, the prius is $15K cheaper than a gs300.  the prius is also
           underpriced for its technology - it's only "overpriced" compared
           to (non-hybrid) corollas/camry's
        \_ Well duh, we all knew already that all republicans are evil and
           stupid and selfish and what are you doing talking to one anyway?
        \_ I hope all tree-huggers buy into this superstition that their
           own shit don't stink. As if using a hybrid really helps - the
           batteries for one are merely pollution re-distribution. It'll
           be a nice awakening when fifty years down the line, when every
           stupid so-called pro-enviromental law pops the worlds economies
           and still nature is none the better. Keep smokin' that shit.
        \_ Yes, I think you are a minority. Most people respond to economic
           incentives (e.g. some would probably rather plant a tree and then
           continue driving SUV because they can). In Europe, midsized cars
           like Accord, Passat, and 3-series are sold with 1.6 and 2.0L
           engines, or diesels. Why? Gas tax, engine size tax, etc. People are
           responding to the incentives. I don't think car-induced pollution
           will significantly decrease unless the government steps in to create
           such incentives to make people drive smaller cars with smaller
           engine displacements, and not to mention do something about the SUVs
           most of which seem to be used a urban grocery-getters.
           \_ ob alien invasion claiming stewardship of earth from humans is
              more interesting
           \_ In Hong Kong, auto license fee is based on engine displacement,
              not the value of the car.  So someone owning a Ferrari with a
              small engine pays less than someone driving a big SUV.  (Not that
              big SUVs are popular there.)
           \_ The economics of buying a larger vehicle would have to be pushed
              so far as to make them available only to the super rich to keep
              all those sub urban shoppers out of them.  IMO they're already
              too expensive to buy and maintain yet people keep shelling out
              for them.  Even at 70-100k you still see plenty of hummers on
              the road which sure as hell can't be worth it.
        \_ I ain't no Republican, but I would never buy a stupid, overpriced
           Prius.  I'll take my Hummer and BMW anyday.  -average American male
                                   \_ You're right--you're just guessing.
                                      On the facts, you're wrong.  -tom
2006/8/15-17 [Uncategorized] UID:44016 Activity:nil
8/15    "America is safer than it has been, yet it is not yet safe."
           --GWB, 08/15/06
        \_ Reading that hurts my brain.
        \_ http://media.echoditto.com/SOTU.mov
        \_ I disagree.  I am safe in my bigass Hummer. -average American male
              \_ sigh... with friends like these....
2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44017 Activity:nil
8/15    Iran to offer through Hezbollah an unlimited budget for reconstruction
        of houses and businesses destroyed during Israeli assault.
                                ^_ and missiles
        \_ With longer ranged missiles for the next round of unprovoked
           strikes into Israel.
        \_ Reading that hurts my brain.
           \_ Unprovoked?  You mean the capture of 2 soldiers and killing
              6 more by Hezbollah, then the Israeli fighters bombing
              targets all over Lebanon, then the rockets lobbed by Hezbollah
              at Israeli cities?
                \_ Damn you are a moron
                   \_ damn, you are a moron
                      \_ No, you are just an idiot.  -moron
              \_ Please to be rereading and comprehending the implied subject
                 of the previous fragment.
                 \_ Please to be thinking critically
              \_ sigh... with friends like these....
        \_ Support our troops.  -average American male
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2006:August:15 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>