Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 43569
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2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/3    

2006/7/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:43569 Activity:moderate
7/5     What's the big deal about NK testing firing some missiles?  I mean
        don't we test fire missiles all the time? We must've test
        fired thousands of missiles, heck, we still drop bombs
        wherever we feel like, and that's all fine. But another
        sovereign nation can't test fire a fucking missiles? Last I
        recall NK hasn't dropped bombs on anyone except Korea. We have
        dropped Nuclear Bombs, Cluster Bombs, all kinds of fucking
        bombs everywhere around the globe, but I guess it's ok because
        we are the good guys, and we never attack unless being
        attacked, ops, I mean we never, never mind.
        \_ You're right, it's about international prestige.  NK wants some,
           the U.S. doesn't want to give it to them.
        \_ It's not just the US; Japan's objecting to NK testing missiles,
           too. That's not about prestige, that's self-preservation. If
           NK can target Tokyo, Japan believes NK will use this to blackmail
           Japan for more economic/agrarian aid. Japan has reason to think so;
           cf. NK's abduction of Japanese citizens and subsequent denial of
           such.
           \_ Plus the fake fishing boats in Japan waters.
           \_ Plus the underground tunnels across the 38deg parallel.
           \_ The funny thing is, there is little symphathy toward Japan
              across Asia.  Japanese need to think a bit hard on why being
              targeted by N.Korea doesn't yield any symphathy among its
              neighbors.
              \_ In other news, Japan was dressed like it wanted to be
                 targetted.
              \_ Dude, from the *U.S.* perspective Japan is very important,
                 our 4th largest trading partner.  We don't want to see them
                 nuked or blackmailed.
                 \_ China is the 3rd largest trading partner, but US doesn't
                    mind China being nuked or blackmailed at all.  In fact,
                    US probably going to nuke China when it got a chance.
                    what does trade has anything to do with all this?
                    \_ No one (apart from the Uighurs and some militant
                       Tibetans in exile) wants to nuke China. The US is
                       pursuing a policy of encouraging the PRC to abandon
                       its ersatz Communism in favor of capitalism (which
                       many people think will somehow lead to democratic
                       reform; I disagree on the basis that the people in
                       power in the PRC are much more likely to use the
                       economic miracle to consolidate their own power at the
                       expense of the serf class they rule). Also, DPRK
                       cannot blackmail PRC because PRC controls the oil
                       pipeline that leads into the DPRK; when DPRK last tried
                       to get snarky with PRC, there was an "accident" that
                       shut down the pipeline for nearly a week. DPRK backed
                       down.
                       \_ economic propsperity will lead to political reform.
                          The Chinese government today is, believe me or not,
                          a lot more transparent than 15 years ago.  But
                          don't put your bet on full western-style democracy.
                          it has been tried and didn't work.  Another history
                          lesson of the day, China is the first country in
                          East Asia that established a Democratic Republic
                          with 5 branch of government.
                          \_ Despite Sun Yat-sen's idealistic intentions,
                             the Republic of China was never a Western-style
                             democracy; it was an oligarchy, and it quickly
                             devolved into a military dictatorship. It was
                             disaffection with the KMT's stranglehold on the
                             ersatz democracy that fueled Mao & Co.'s rise to
                             power. After the founding of the PRC, democracy
                             became something less than lip service; cf.
                             Gang of Four.
        \_ They just fired a 7th (!!).  I wonder how many NK comrades literally
           starve for every compensatory phallic NK missle launch.
           \_ You do know these missiles are called "Nodong," right?
        \_ Yeah!!! We should all quick picking on poor little NK. After all
           it was Western agression that provoked them into starting the
           Korean War! Get you fcking head out of the sand. NK perfects
           missile technology, it'll be nuclear yellow mornings for you
           libs in the West coasts all the time. And please don't give tell me
           you don't know about the thousands of conventional arty pieces
           pointed at Seoul, ready to level it at the first sign of attack.
           \_ As the only nation on this planet in the history of
              mankind that have used a nuclear weapon against millions
              of civilian lives, and wants to develop "bunker busting
              nukes" against an enemy so weak they can't even fight us
              face to face, we really have no right to tell anyone
              what to do about nuclear weapons. Just remember, what
              goes around, comes around. 75% of the world agrees that
              the US is the biggest threat to world peace. It is time
              you get your head out of the sand and ask "why".
              \_ Why if 75% say so then it must be true! I can see how the
                 sun never sets on the U.S. flag! I can see English being
                 forced on the locals. Yes, sirree! We are threat to world
                 peace with all the food we give away, all the money we
                 give away to those who play ball with us, my gawd, all that
                 "shame" from Hiroshima (100k dead vs. 2mil USGI possibly
                 dying) has lead us to the warpath! You know we wanted
                 to rewrite the Vietnamese lang. just like the French did.
                 You know we wanted to go all the way to Beijing. By golly
                 you have us pegged as conquering squatters we are.
                 \_ The US did go all the way to Beijing in 1900.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
                 \_ Nice.  Maybe they think we're a threat because of what we
                    actually HAVE done, largely supporting and funding
                    destabilizing influences the world over.
                    \_ you mean how we've been the most generous and pacifist
                       power the world has ever seen?
                       \_ US is neither most generous (in the percentage of
                          is GDP) nor pacifist.  We've been overthrown
                          democratic governments, founding garallias,
                          and invade soverign nation against UN charter.
                          Exactly what make you think US is a pacifist?
                          \_ Generous: we give more.  We also give a lot more
                             \_ nope.  per pecentage of GDP, US doesn't give
                                more.
                             in private donations.  Pacifist: name any country
                                \_ private donation doesnt count as Nation's
                                   donation.  good try to spin the way through
                             in the past with any amount of power that didn't
                             try to form an empire.  I can only name one that
                             has more power than the rest of the world
                             combined and barely uses it.  This is a very
                             pacifist and passive country.
                             \_ Do you want to talk about Iran in 1953?
                                Guatamola?  Chili?  and latest Iraq? If you
                                want to talk about neighbors, you want to
                                talk about our invasion against Canada?
                                our advanture with Mexico?  I haven't start
                                talking about all these Indian nations because
                                inferior race doesn't count as humans.
                       \_ And Kenneth Lay was a great philanthropist.
                          \_ Snarky.  Ignorant.
                             \_ He was!  How's that ignorant?
                       \_ More generous and pacifistic than Sweden? Canada?
                          The Netherlands? I think not.
                          \_ I was unaware Sweden, Canada, and the Netherlands
                             were super powers.  I apologise to you and the
                             rest of the motd for not recognising these three
                             great nations for the super powers they are.
                             \_ The phrase was "power" not "super power." But
                                yeah, if you want to claim that the United
                                States is the most generous and pacifistic
                                superpower in the world, that would be hard
                                to argue with, since we are also the only
                                superpower in the world. We are also,
                                incidently, the greediest and most warmongering
                                superpower in the world. But in either case,
                                you aren't saying a whole lot.
                                \_ Split any hairs lately?  Use Power or Super
                                   Power.  No nation with power over their
                                   neighbors has ever been as generous or as
                                   pacifistic as the US.  How's that?  No
                                   nation has ever had the power the US has
                                   now and pray they don't ever because it's
                                   only down hill from here.
                                   \_ Okay, I agree with you on this.
                                   \_ you are sooooooooooo ignorant of history.
                                      google the term "pax sinica."
                                      \_ Hello, the Middle Kingdom invented
                                         gunboat diplomacy before there were
                                         gunboats. Also, if the MK had an
                                         economic dispute (i.e., if you didn't
                                         pay your tribute), they'd invade and
                                         destroy. This would seem to invalidate
                                         the pacifist requirement.
                                         \_ you have no idea what you are
                                            talking about.  tribute is more
                                            similar to trade agreement than
                                            what you think it is.  But since
                                            you are clueless beyond help, I
                                            am not going to elaborate further.
                                            \_ LOLicious! You have nothing to
                                               back up your revisionist view
                                               of the Middle Kingdom as last
                                               benign military force, so you
                                               accuse me of not knowing what
                                               I'm talking about. -10 points
                                               for House ChiCom Troll!
                                      \_ Hey, don't forget the kindness of
                                         the Islamic empire.  As long as
                                         you agreed with them on
                                         everything, they wouldn't murder
                                         everyone and rape all the women!
                                         What elightenment!
                                         \_ hmm... let see... why all the
                                            fucking Jews seeking refuge in
                                            those Islamic empire if they are
                                            being murdered and raped?
                                            \_ 1) Because they had _less_
                                               chance of being raped in Islamic
                                               world than in Xian world; google
                                               Pogroms. 2) Because pp has
                                               overstated the case even more
                                               than revisionist ChiCom Troll.
                          \_ Yeah, each of those countries can airlift
                             people after tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes
                             easily. Why they protect thousands of miles
                             of land that's not even theirs!
                             \_ Overseas Development Aid as a percentage of GDP
                                Denmark 0.96%
                                Norway .89
                                Sweden .83
                                Netherlands .81
                                Luxembourg .77
                                Belgium .43
                                Ireland .40
                                France .38
                                Japan .23
                                United States .13
                                \_ Are you including private donations?  No.
                                   I think you'll be surprised at just how
                                   generous Americans really are if you
                                   bothered to check that instead of just
                                   looking at government funded programs, but
                                   Americans are all greedy and selfish and
                                   insular and stupid so don't worry about it.
                                   \_ Give me the facts then, instead of just
                                      spouting your opinion. Including private
                                      donations, who is the most generous?
                                      Cite your source, please.
                                \_ Fighting the war on terror is equivalent
                                   to development aid, because terror impedes
                                   development. The defense cost and the Bush
                                   War in Iraq are greater than any dev aid
                                   we've ever seen, and therefore the US is
                                   the most generous nation on the planet.
                                   God Bless!   -Bush Cheney Lay Skilling #1!
                                \_ what about china?
                                   \_ China is not exactly in the position
                                      to help anyone.  If China can leveage
                                      millions of people out of poverty, it
                                      will be considered an act of huge
                                      favor toward humanintarian cause.
                                \_ Seeing how many super powers on this list: 1
                                \_ screw this percentage of GDP crap, and show
                                   us the real absolute numbers.  Do you think
                                   the needy  will be more grateful for $100
                                   from a rich man than $1 from a pauper?
                                   \_ No, but Jesus taught that the latter
                                      is a bigger gift.
                                      \_ Who?
                                         \_ Jesus Holy-shit Christ.
                                            \_ What?!  I learned on the motd
                                               that His middle name was
                                               "tapdancing".  Is this a
                                               different guy?
                                   \_ Oh come on, he was doing a good job
                                      lying with statistics.  Don't try to
                                      bring hard numbers into it.

                                      \_ How is percentage lying?  I believe
                                         the claim was "most generous"
                                         Generosity is a measure of sacrifice,
                                         not absolute dollar value.
                 \_ The US did go all the way to Beijing in 1900.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
              \_ US is the leading superpower. If it wasn't US, it would be
                 Spain, France, Holland, Germany, UK, China, Japan, or someone
                 else. Don't think that w/o the US the power vacuum would be
                 filled with some peaceloving nation. As world powers decline,
                 others rise to take their place. Only the names change.
              \_ Those people should be asked their definition of "World
                 Peace."  I don't see how we have World Peace now, so how
                 can anyone threaten it?  Is Dafur (and other such places)
                 not the automatic biggest threat to world peace, since
                 they keep it from existing in the first place?
                 \_ Darfur doesn't count to these people.  They're brown,
                    they're foreign, they have a different religion/culture/
                    language/everything and worst of all, they're poor so if
                    they're getting slaughtered hey let's just have another
                    UN meeting in a few months to discuss the exact definition
                    of genocide.  Once the UN's Human Rights Commission's
                    sub-committee on the definition of genocide gets back to
                    us next year we can then decide if that definition fits
                    Darfur but only after the government there releases figures
                    telling us how many they're killing per day and why each
                    one was killed.
              \_ We didn't kill *millions* with nuclear weapons, more like
                 300,000.  Not to justify it or anything, just pointing out
                 that you're off by a factor of ten.
                 \_ Agreed.  About the same number of civilians the Japanese
                    killed in the Rape of Nanjing alone.
                 \_ Agreed.  About the same as the number of civilians the
                    Japanese killed in the Rape of Nanjing alone.
        \_ I know where you're coming from, but believe me, Kim Jong Il is not
           the guy you want to defend on this sovereignty issue.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
Military of the Powers during the Boxer Rebellion, with their naval flags, from left to right: Italy, United States, France, Austria-Hungary, Japan, Germany, United Kingdom, Russia. edit Leading Factors At the end of the 1800's due to foreign involvement within China, and the Empress Cixi's passive approval, resentment towards the foreigners was on the rise. Social differences and the technology gap encouraged these sentiments. These resentments grew to the extent that action against foreign companies, personnel, and even items such as violins, automobiles, phone lines etc. Diplomats were assassinated, businesses vandalized and items were set on fire in the streets. Qing government formally condemned these violent actions, they failed to prosecute the people that carried out the crimes, and it is thought that they encouraged them from behind the scenes. Citing the necessity of protecting their citizens, these eight foreign countries sent troops to quell the rebels. Some other informal motives, apparently, were the opportunity of further access to the Chinese market and exploitation of the Chinese.