8/29    In the past few years I've been hearing a lot of bad things about the
        quality of UCB EECS. I've heard that they're system level stupid
        (Java-centric), editor incompetent (pico), and non-UNIX savvy
        (M$ NT, MFC C++, etc). Is this true with the grad students?
        \_ Latest I've heard is that 162 (OS) is taught in Java now.
           \_ Holy shit!
        \_ Ya, but recently, students have been programming GUI's in 61b.
           That wasn't done too often 10 years ago.
        \_ We had an intern this summer (EECS Junior) who had trouble
           using the UNIX/Linux CLI (tar/gzip/make/cc). He used pico
           almost exclusively, but he knew his C and Perl quite well.
           I don't think that this is limited to Cal. We have some
           guys from UIUC who can barely use vi/make/cc correctly
           and struggle on systems without X11 but if you ask them
           to debug code they can do it quite well.
        \_ it's not the tool they use but how they use the tools.
           If you want Unix + emacs + gcc , you are just as locked
           from reality as the people you're attacking.
           \_ I've been in the industry for 8 years and I still use Unix and
              emacs everyday in all of the three jobs I've had.  I'm also using
              gcc in the third job right now.
           \_ replace "want" with "insist".  But then this has been an
              often beated down topic not worth revisiting.
        \_ i don't think it's the responsibility of a university to teach
           you how to use the programming tools of the day. it's job is
           to show you the big picture and understand the underlying
           concepts. it's assumed that you are smart enough that you
           could start using MFC correctly after 2 days even though
           you've been using Qt for 3 years. Fundamentally, there is
           nothing different between gcc+emacs+gdb/vc++, or gtk,qt/MFC,
           or C++,scheme/Java. If you don't know how to make the
           transition, you either missed the point of school, or you
           should be attending a vocational school. -ali.
        \_ Arrrrrrrrrrgh, matey!  UCB EECS today warn't nothin' like the
           swashbucklin' days of yore, when manly men like m'self walked
           the decks of Cory Hall!  Back then, we built our own calculatin'
           machines out of gears we milled ourselves from rods of iron!
           We 'programmed' 'em by movin' the gears into place with wooden
           sticks, powerin' the whole works by leather belts attached to a
           waterwheel!  Men could lose their fingers in works like that --
           you could tell the real 'hackers', because they were the ones
           walking around with nothing but stumps for hands.  Lily-livered
           Windows-usin' nancy-boys that they let waltz out of the program
           these days -- wait 'til they meet *me* 'round a dark corner
           someday!
           \_ you had milling machines? you had waterweels?  jeez.  I remmember
              spending my first two years here running on a treadmill to
              power the machines for the upper division classes, and cutting
              gears out of mastadon tusks with bits of sharp rock.
           \_ and you'll what, club them with your stump?
           \_ you are right!  Try taking CS 164 with VT220 terminals.
              \_ Achoi could work on his 162 project with one VT220 terminal in
                 Cory.
           \_ this is one of the funniest things I've seen on the motd in a
              while.  thanks for making my day.
           \_ HAHA!!! What planet are you from?
           \_ You didn't happen to write Myst and Riven did you?  That would
              explain all the inane puzzles....
              \_ Both Myst and Riven were written by Christian Fundies, what
                 more explanation do you need?