8/15    India's IT companies emulating Toyota to combine low cost and
        talent with discipline, quality and continuous improvements.
        Man, you guys are deadmeat.
        http://yahoo.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_34/b3948443.htm
        \_ "Think of any job that can be done remotely, by computer or
           telephone, and you're looking at a job that can be done by an
           Indian" and therein lies the crux of the problem.  How long do you
           think these guys are going to want to do the backoffice out-of-sight
           shit work?  They'll start outsourcing the outsourcing to China.
           And at some point you're going to get enough local demand there for
           consulting know-how to absorb all their cheap excess capacity.  At
           the same time, you'll see companies in other parts of the world go
           for competitive advantage through knowledge of their local markets.
           I'm not weeping, nor am I worried.  -John
           \_ that's just your wishful thinking.  the answer to the question
              "How long ...." is there are 1.4 billion indians, pakistanis
              and bengali.
              \_ Yes, and another 1.x billion Chinese, and another uncounted
                 hundreds of millions of Indonesians, Malaysians, Thais and
                 other smart, educated and ambitious folks.  So?  It's a
                 peculiar sort of arrogance to assume that these people will
                 all be happily living in mud hovels while they evolve
                 economically.  Power to them.  Likewise, the more advanced
                 local economies become, the more demand you'll see there for
                 goods and services of the sort that American and European
                 firms were happily providing to each other for decades.  Go
                 join a union or something, the rest of us will be working to
                 adapt and compete with these guys on increasingly equal terms.
                 It's called "progress".  -John
                 \_ This reminds me of Hong Kong.  While virtually all textile
                    and electronic industries, once the dominant driving forces
                    of its economy, have relocated to the nearby SE China,
                    people in Hong still managed to survive somehow.  What do
                    people do to make a living these days?
                    people in Hong Kong still managed to survive somehow.  How
                    do people make a living these days?
                    \_ err ... it's much easier for a hong konger to go
                       start a business or go work in shen zhen, etc., then for
                       your american worker to go work in bangalore.  the
                       relationship between hong kong and its south china
                       hinterland is very different from that between US and
                       India / China.  another example is taiwan where the
                       starting salary for university graduates has been
                       dropping, and unemployment rates rising, while the
                       rich business men of taiwan are doing well in china.
                    \_ When it gets down to it -- talking trade balances here --
                       once we've brain-drained all our technology into other
                       countries, once things have evened out, they're making
                       cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and
                       selling them here -- once our edge in natural resources
                       has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and
                       dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New
                       Zealand for a nickel -- once the Invisible Hand has taken
                       all those historical inequities and smeared them out into
                       a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would
                       consider to be prosperity -- y'know what? There's only
                       four things we do better than anyone else:
                                music
                                movies
                                microcode (software)
                                high-speed pizza delivery
                       And I guess all the Hong Kongers are into banking or
                       similar now.  Remember that all the Guangzhouers or what-
                       ever they're called also want the shiny cars.  -John
                       \_ John, I never would have guessed you were a
                          Stephenson fanboy.
                \_ Language barriers will still be an isssue with many of
                \_ language barriors will still be an isssue with many of
                   the outsourcing efforts.
                \_ really?  check out the trade statistics with US among
                   the more advanced countries of asia.  "progress"?  sure.
                   american capital, know-how and expertise flowing freely
                   to china and india most certainly will help them progress,
                   and help the rich capital owners in the US prosper.
                   big loser?  american workers, who are getting screwed in
                   so many different ways.
                   \_ So what do you suggest?
                   \_ Apparently not.  "barriers".
                      \_ I suggest a career change.
                         \_ I work for the government.  My work is not
                            outsourceable.
                            \_ thanks for sharing.
                               on a national basis, globalization meant
                               that the corporate response to the
                               opening of china and india is simply to
                               move operations there.  the burden thus
                               falls entirely on US workers to adapt.
                               there is little incentive for US corporations
                               to change in terms of investing in
                               automation, R&D, worker training and
                               education, etc.  In fact there may even
                               be less of an inventive than before since
                               they can just obtain their labor source
                               from china and india, abundantly.  thus
                               US workers would receive little help
                               from US corporations.  this would be
                               different if capital does not flow as
                               freely and US corporations and workers
                               must compete as a unit.  Is this a
                               case where government provided
                               incentives are called for?  in the form
                               of incentives for corporations to invest
                               in the US on R&D, workers training,
                               equipment, etc., and perhaps also more
                               direct government help with education and
                               training of US workers?  these would
                               help mitigate the transition, without
                               stifling free market and competition, and
                               are done by countries in asia and elsewhere.
                               \_ Part of the problem is not just that
                                  corporations are moving abroad without any
                                  penalty (which they should be free to do) but
                                  that they're being stupidly subsidized while
                                  doing so.  A good start would be to encourage
                                  SMEs by reducing regulatory and tax burden
                                  on small companies, so people don't feel
                                  beholden to large outfits for jobs.  -John