10/15   From an AP article about possible election nightmare scenarios:
        'Another quirk involves "faithless electors," who refuse to cast their
        electoral votes for the person chosen by their state's voters. This
        rarely happens - only 10 times in history - but even one this year
        could be critical. And one of the five Republican electors from West
        Virginia is holding out the possibility of withholding his vote for
        Bush if the president carries the state.'

        Excuse me, but WTF.  If this isn't a great argument for junking this
        ridiculous and outmoded system, I don't know what is.
        \_ The system was designed to prevent the common people from choosing
           the president.  As we saw in 2000, the system works!
           \_ This should not be a partisan issue.  As the rogue West Virginian
              elector shows, this could break against the President just as
              easily at it could break towards him.  Sadly, I think the only
              scenario that would create enough of a real push to fix the
              system would be Kerry losing in the popular vote but winning
              the electoral vote.  The inverse would simply be status quo.
              \_ I think it's not a partisan issue of Rep vs. Dem so much
                 as politician vs. voter.  Politicians love this system
                 because they only have to campaign in certain parts of the
                 country, and can strategize accordingly.  Without the electoral
                 college, both candidates would actually have to campaign in
                 california, texas, new england and the south.  This would
                 obviously be in the best interests of everyone but the
                 soccer moms in ohio who now hold complete control over the
                 nation as far as voters go, but would be a big pain in the
                 ass for politicians.
                 \_ It would also make things like instant runoff voting much
                    more necessary.  Proportional electoral representation
                    would also greatly change the dynamics of 3rd parties.
              \_ Part of the problem is that you would have to find a
                 system that breaks slightly in favor of small states like
                 the current one does.  Otherwise it will just never be
                 reformed.
                 \_ You could keep electoral votes but make each state's EVs
                    be distributed according to popular vote in that state.
                    (Like the Colorado measure)  If only a few states do this
                    it diminishes their importance but if they all did it it
                    would be a level playing field.
                    \_ This doesn't address the "faithless elector" problem.
                       Can you imagine the shitstorm if the electoral college
                       is tied, and that W.Virginian elector switches his Bush
                       vote to Kerry?
                       \_ Sure it could.  The state could just specify by
                          statute the way in which an elector must vore.  Any
                          faithless electors are acting in violation of state
                          law and get replaced.
                       \_ You could just get rid of the electors and make
                          the electoral votes be directly based on what
                          was voted in the state.
        \_ The large/small state balance is included in constitutional
           amendments as well.  You're never going to convince 75% of the state
           legislatures to pass it.  Stop talking about reforming the EC.  This
           was a boogeyman raised in 2000 and it didn't matter then either.
           \_ So your attitude is, "The system is fucked and a minority wants
              it to stay fucked, so piss off."  As I recall, there have been
              over 20 Constitutional amendments over the years to correct
              various problems, and those have passed.
              \_ Ummm... Perhaps I should point out that it's only
                 "fucked" from the perspecitve of the big states.  I don't
                 know how you'd convince the smaller states that getting
                 screwed up the butt by CA is good for them, but you're
                 welcome to try. -!pp
                 \_ Let's extend your logic to state elections.  Why should we
                    have majority elections for electing the governor?  After
                    all, the populated areas of the state could "screw over"
                    the less populated parts.  By your logic, we should have
                    an electoral college to give people in the unpopulated
                    parts proportionally more voting power.  And why not
                    take it further, to the local level?  After all, my block
                    doesn't have as many people in it, but do I want those
                          \_ Laws are only correct or incorrect when they are
                             stating a fact, like declaring Pi=22/7.
                    people in the Sunset picking my Mayor and screwing me?
                    Give me more representation!
                    \_ Wow, your whole thesis is based on a fallacy of
                       scale.
                       \_ The idea that "Wyoming" needs representation is
                          itself a fallacy.  The state of Wyoming has no
                          concern at all with terrorism, for example, yet
                          it's one of the biggest supporters of Bush's
                          policies.  -tom
                          \_ Heh, "I'm smarter than you, so let me vote
                             for you."
                             \_ uh, no.  Value of person in Wyoming =~ value
                                of person in CA.  Value of vote in Wyoming
                                =~ 5 * value of vote in CA.  That's bullshit,
                                period.  -tom
                                \_ So move to Wyoming and stop bitching.
                                   Equating this with 'person value' is
                                   bizarre.
        \_ I would rather reform Gerrymandering.
        \_ I would rather reform voter fraud, ie. bring back DMV
           voter registration.
           \_ Bring back?