Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 30518
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2021/10/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
10/17   

2004/6/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Reference/History/WW2/Japan] UID:30518 Activity:very high
6/1     hmm, the thread got deleted before I could admit I was wrong.
        Japan *did* offer to "surrender" before the dropping of the bombs.
        On the condition that they maintain sovereignty.  The eventual
        surrender, was, though, still conditioned on the continued titular
        reign of the emperor.  -phuqm
        \_ Once the bombs fell, and Stalin decided he wanted a piece of the
           pie, Japan just surrendered.  The Emperor was kept because the
           Americans thought keeping him would ease the occupation. -- ilyas
           \_ I agree that the Americans thought it may be advantageous to
              keep him, that doesn't change the fact that it was a requested
              and accepted condition. -phuqm
              \_ http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/japsurr.html  Search for
                 'unconditional'. -- ilyas
                        \_ I may possibly be unduly stretching the idea of
                        "conditional", but (see the other link) it does
                         still appear to me that they asked for it, and if
                         they did, and we implicitely accepted this
                         condition (even if we would have allowed it
                         anyway), then it is conditional regardless of how
                         many times the surrender document signed by some
                         general says "unconditional".
                         The roads are called "highways" in the legal code
                         However if you say that it is legal for you to
                         ride your bicycle on the highways, I will still
                         argue with you. -phuqm
              \_ It was not requested.  The idea of surrender was so out there
                 for most members of the public (although not for several
                 of the Jap cabinet, like PM Suzuki)--you have to remember
                 that the Emperor's voice had not even been heard in public
                 for years before a recording of his reading the surrender
                 was played on Japanese radio.  It barely occurred to anyone
                 that the Emperor might not be around at some point.
                 MacArthur saw it as a wise move to use some parts of the
                 Japanese authority structure to ease occupation.  -John
            \_ This is untrue.  The japanese were beseeching the Russians
               to change sides until the last days of the war.  The Japanese
               Imperial Army was almost completely intact in Indochina with
               several army groups.
        \_ phuqm, please post a link or reference for your belif.  I have
           never read anything that suggested the Japanese unconditional
           surrender was really conditioned on the continuation of the
           Emperor, although I have read the opposite several times.
           Link?  -jrleek
        \_ This is untrue.  The japanese were beseeching the Russians
           to change sides until the last days of the war.  The Japanese
           Imperial Army was almost completely intact in Indochina with
           several army groups.
               \_ This is from your link: "...the Emperor must be
                  left on the Imperial Throne. The Allies replied
                  that the Emperor would be subject to the Allied
                  Occupation Commander."  Now, i'm well aware that
                  it was called an "unconditional surrender" (and
                  was before i typed the above), but the above is
                  a CONDITION that that was requested and accepted.
                  The fact that he was subject to the Allied Command
                  is irrelevant to my point accept that it
                  ACKNOWLEDGES the fact that the position WILL
                  continue to exist (the condition).
                 --Having read Ilyas' link, though, i'd have to say
                   that my postion is weaker than that article makes
                   out, the only support being an explicit reference
                   to "The authority of the Emperor" (which again is
                   assumed in the legal document, as it is being
                   put down).  -phuqm
                   \_ Really, the problem is that this isn't a reasonable
                      debate.  Go read any comprehensive history of the
                      Japanese Occupation.  It's very clear the MacAurthur
                      had the power to remove the emperor, he just
                      descided not to.  The effect was similar though, the
                      emperor was demoted from divine to amusing
                      tradition.  Hence the nearly completely secular
                      Japan we have today. -jrleek
                        \_ if they removed the Emperor the Japanese would
                           have fought to the very last man, and the entire
                           country would have been a giant graveyard.  My great-
                           grandmother was trained with all her fellow villagers
                           with bamboo spears to fight the American invaders,
                           because they were sure the Americans were going to
                           come into the country raping and pillaging.  -brain
                                \_ uh, are you a mix? you sure don't look
                                   like a Nip.          -pro atomic bomb man
                           \_ I'm not exactly sure about how it would have
                              come about, but I think any removal would
                              have been well after the surrender.  That
                              would make it seem a bit late for the bamboo
                              spears.  Especially since the Emperor was
                              responsible for the surrender.  That site
                              mentions that there was an attempted coup to
                              keep fighting, but I think the regular
                              people would have gone with the emperor.
                              That is, no bamboo spears.  Plus, the
                              Americans came bearing food... -jrleek
                        \_ people have the "power" to break many
                           agreements they make, or laws enacted.  That
                           has little relevance to this arg. -phuqm
                           \_ So, basically you believe there was some
                              kind of secret deal made with Emperor that
                              has been kept so secret for the last 60
                              years you're the only one who knows about
                              it?  In that case, I guess you're right. I
                              can't argue with that. -jrleek
                      \_ wasn't emperor just an amusing figure head
                         through long periods of japan's history?
                         wasn't shogun the guy with real power?  even
                         during ww2, emperor only has limited power,
                         right?
                         \_ Somewhat correct.  Even when the Emperor had no
                            actual power (under the Tokugawa Shogunate), he
                            was respected as the divine son of Heaven. The
                            rallying cry of the Meiji Restoration (which
                            removed the Shogunate from power) was the renewed
                            respect for the authority of the Emperor. After
                            the Meiji Restoration, the Emperor was perceived
                            as the beloved father-figure and leader of all
                            Japan, even though the actual running of the war
                            was done by Tojo and his upper level circle of
                            officers.  The repudiation of the policies of that
                            inner circle is what allows the Emperor to both
                            admit culpability (and mortality) while still
                            remaining Emperor.
                         \_ That's what the emperor wanted the world to believe
                            when he surrendered.
                            \_ the ww2 emperor does have some power, more
                               so than the emperors under say tokugawa
                               shogunate, but even his power is rather
                               limited.
                            \_ the emperor is an important figurehead- he
                                is directly decended from gods.  To maintain a
                                valid claim to power, you have to have the
                                emperor still alive.  What the Meiji Restoration
                                was about was the emperor siezing back his
                                power from the shogun, with the backing of some
                                of the larger houses and the merchants who
                                would directly benefit from the new reforms
                                he hadin mind.          -brain
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Cache (8192 bytes)
www.law.ou.edu/hist/japsurr.html
The University of Oklahoma Law Center The Japanese Surrender Documents of World War II September 12, 1945 TRANSLATION of Foreign Minister Shiegemitsu's credentials TRANSLATION H I R O H I T O, By the Grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the Throne occupied by the same Dynasty changeless through ages eternal, To all who these Presents shall come, Greeting! We do hereby authorise Mamoru Shigemitsu, Zyosanmi, First Class of the Imperial Order of the Rising Sun to attach his signature by command and in behalf of Ourselves and Our Government unto the Instrument of Surrender which is required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be signed. In witness whereof, We have hereunto set Our signature and caused the Great Seal of the Empire to be affixed. Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this first day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu. Seal of the Empire Signed: H I R O H I T O Countersigned: Naruhiko-o Prime Minister --------------------------------------- TRANSLATION of General Umezu's credentials TRANSLATION H I R O H I T O , By the Grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the Throne occupied by the same Dynasty changeless through ages eternal, To all who these Presents shall come, Greeting! We do hereby authorise Yoshijiro Umezu, Zyosanmi, First Class of the Imperial Order of the Rising Sun to attach his signature by command and in behalf of Ourselves and Our Government unto the Instrument of Surrender which is required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be signed. In witness whereof, We have hereunto set Our signature and caused the Great Seal of the Empire to be affixed. Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this first day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu. Seal of the Empire Signed: H I R O H I T O Countersigned: Yoshijiro Umezu, Chief of the General Staff of the Imperial Japanese Army Soemu Toyoda, Chief of the General Staff of the Imperial Japanese Army --------------------------------------- INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Repub- lics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers. We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated. We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilites forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which my be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender un- conditionally themselves and all forces under their control. We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, and orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to ef- fectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority. We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Poers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed. The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to ef- fectuate these terms of surrender. Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 I on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945. MAMORU SHIGMITSU By Command and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan and the Japanese Government YOSHIJIRO UMEZU By Command and in behalf of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters Accepted at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0903 I on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945, for the United States, Republic of China, United Kingdom and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and in the interests of the other United Nations at war with Japan. We command all Our people forthwith to cease hostilities, to lay down their arms and faithfully to carry out all the provisions of Instrument of Surrender and the General Orders issued by the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters hereunder. This second day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa. at Potsdam and sub- sequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and to the formal instrument of surrender of the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters signed at Toyko Bay at 0908 on 2 September 1945: 1 Acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, We hereby surrender unconditionally to the Commanding General, United States Army Forces, Western Pacific, all Japanese and Japanese-controlled armed forces, air, sea, ground and auxiliary, in the Philippine Islands. Signed at Camp John Hay, Baguio, Mountain Province, Luzon, Philippine Islands, at 1210 hours 3 September 1945: TOMOYUKI YAMASHITA, General, Imperial Japanese Army Highest Commander, Imperial Japanese Army in the Philippines. DENHICI OKOCHI, Vice Admiral, Imperial Japanese Navy Highest Commander, Imperial Japanese Navy in the Philippines. By command and in behalf of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters Accepted at Camp John Hay, Baguio, Mountain Province Luzon Philippine Islands, at 1210 hours 3 September 1945: For the Commander-in-Chief, United States Army Forces, Pacific: EDMOND H LEAVY, Major General, USA Deputy Commander, United States Army Forces, Western Pacific. We, acting by command of an in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britian on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Repub- lics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers. We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated. We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilites forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which my be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their co...