4/10    So, I'm hearing all this crap about social security becoming insolvent
        because we won't have enough taxpayers to support the baby boomers.
        What I haven't heard anything about is, why not allow more *skilled*
        immigrants into the country? Why not allow people educated here to
        stay in the country? We spend all this money on educating these
        foreign nationals, and then make them leave, even if they'd like to
        stay. Allowing them to stay would obviously make for more taxpayers,
        more consumer demand, etc. And it's not really like we don't have
        the land; Japan can cram well over half the population of the US into
        a space smaller than California. The drawback is of course national
        security "concerns", and the notion that foreigners will be competing
        for our jobs. What do you people think?
        \_ The US's prosperity was built largely on brain drain from
           foreign countries with poorer conditions than here.  Hindering
           the brain drain in the name of national security is going to
           bite us in the ass bigtime.  Having poor schools in this country
           is going to bite us in the ass bigtime too.  It's a pity we
           have to suffer through cowardly leaders who only care about
           short term gain.
           \_ Nice sentiment, but where did the obsession with ass-biting
              get mixed into this?
           \_ The US's ability to brain drain will probably be more
              impacted by effective competition from foreign schools.
              We'll probably still have the top schools, but the top 100
              schools won't be 90% in the US.
        \_ The U.S. taxpayer just finished spending a quarter of a million
           dollars to pay for my Mainland Chinese friend's phd in solid state
           physics.  Due
           to laws that almost redefine the phrase "government idiocy" she
           may be unable to work in this country where we can benefit from
           her education because all of "nanotechnology" has been declared
           sensitive, and everyone in solid state physics wants to call their
           work nanotech to get on the funding gravy train.  Dumb dumb dumb.
           I don't know the details of the ban, but it extends to the private
           sector.  "Sorry, you can't contribute to our economy.  We're just
           going to spend a quarter of a million dollars training you, then
           force you to go back home and compete with us economically."
        \_ you should consult a mental health professional
           \_ Well, thanks for that ad hominem attack. BTW, I'm actually
              born in the states, and this is not a troll. It is
              practically a certainty at this point that our population will
              not grow fast enough to support the boomers. It seems like the
              obvious way to grow the population is to bring in other people,
              very preferably ones who can contribute to our economy instead
              of ending up on welfare.
        \_ I have an idea that will help: ban abortion.
           \_ See the welfare argument.
        \_ It is my opinion that lots of skilled immigrants are already
           ending up here. They are indeed taking jobs from Americans,
           because they are willing to work for less. I fail to see how
           this benefits the country. Do you really want to import doctors
           from former Soviet Republics, like Spain is doing?
           \_ Well, it is not clear if their presence here creates more jobs
              than they take. Do dumb hicks contribute much to our economy?
              In one sense, yes, since they fuel consumer demand by living
              beyond their means. In another sense, no, because they're stupid
              and don't increase our competitiveness. I'm not saying it should
              be a free-for-all, or that foreign nationals should be allowed
              in all fields, especially when we are not sure what their
              education is relative to the standards in this country. But
              especially for foreigners who got college or graduate degrees
              in this country, not allowing them to stay seems rather silly.
              After all, you can say that they deprived some US citizen of a
              spot at whatever school they went to, so what's the big deal now?
              \_ Is there evidence that lots of people who earned graduate
                 degrees here are not able to stay? Observationally, I
                 don't see that problem in the fields I am familiar with
                 (aerospace engineering, software engineering, hard
                 science, and entertainment).
                 \_ Yes.  Please read my post about Chinese physicists in the
                    U.S. above.  Admittedly, my evidence is also anecdotal, but
                    since most of the people I know are physics grad students,
                    and since about half of them are foreign, I think my
                    anecdotal evidence is relevant.  What I see is unthinking
                    visa policy directly harming American science.  It's not
                    that the *numbers* of foreign scientists wanting to be
                    in the U.S. will go down any time soon, it's that the
                    *quality* is going to start going down as the top people
                    pass up U.S. offers. -!pp
                    \_ Why does quality matter in terms of Social Security?
                       The reality is that there are more PhDs being graduated
                       than there are jobs to employ them.
                       \_ Fuck social security.  The republicans are going
                          to destroy it anyway.  I was just talking about
                          issues affecting American science in general.
                       \_ It might not per se, but the point is we would
                          probably rather have immigrants quality enough to
                          stay off welfare, and better yet, contribute to
                          innovation.
                 \_ It's difficult to stay these days.  You need a H-1B to
                    work in the US, and these get used up in less than
                    a day everytime new quotas become available (in April
                    and October).  From a company's standpoint, that's
                    a lot of uncertainty and cost for hiring a foreign
                    student graduate from US universities.  The whole
                    PR process is also a huge pain and takes forever.
                    \_ It's difficult to hire foreign nationals. On the
                       other hand, plenty of them seem to be getting jobs.
                       Some of them marry Americans, but I have seen no
                       shortage of PhDs from India, China, and Europe working
                       here in the US. In fact, I see more than ever before.
                       Some real statistics and less anecdotal evidence would
                       be nice.
                        \_ It's not just difficult to hire, it's also a
                           pain to stay, so might as well go home,
                           especially given the opportunities abroad.
                           \_ There are no opportunities abroad. Maybe in
                              China. Definitely not in Europe, for
                              instance. I'd like to see some statistics.
                              \_ actually there are lots of opportunities
                                 abroad.  china, india, hongkong, singapore,
                                 taiwan, korea, japan, ...
                                 \_ Japan is okay, but are there really
                                    that many opportunities for, say,
                                    physicists in India or Singapore?
        \_ I grow tired of seeing these posts about how we, as a US
           economy keep getting hurt by offshore jobs, brain drain, etc.
           All the posts seem very Nationalistic and people fail to take into
           account the big picture, we are a global economy.  That person
           who leaves with a Physics degree eventually may invent
           something in China that benefits someone in the US and
           globally.  You can always go micro and say "Contra Costa is losing
           jobs to San Fran", but eventually we all benefit from knowledgeable
           people no matter what tax bucket their income falls in.
           \_ Are you the "Little Chinese"?