12/25   Merry Christmas!
        \_ Is there any evidence of any kind in the bible or elsewhere that
           Jesus was even born this time of year?  Is this just a
           christian/consumerist cooption of solstice celebrations?
           \_ The latter.  -tom
        \_ I think based on historical accounts of when the census was taken
           they believe it was during the winter.
           \_ No, this is not true. Jesus, if he existed, was probably born in
              the spring or fall. One way we know it was not winter is that the
              shepards were in the fields with their flocks. They did not
              do that in the cold of winter.
              \_ Cold of winter? In Jerusalem?
                 http://weather.cnn.com/weather/forecast.jsp?locCode=JRUX
                 And even if it were cold, do you think sheep hibernate in
                 the winter?  Being a shepherd is not a seasonal job.
                 I know exactly jack shit about christianity, but I do know
                 a thing or two about sheep. -!pp,!ppp
                 \_ Maybe you should learn a thing or two about shepherds
                    in Israel at that time. They put the sheep in pens
                    in the winter and let them out in the fields when it
                    was warmer.
                    was warmer, keeping them in at night especially.
                    \_ We Mongols put our sheep to pasture the whole year
                       even though our winters are much harsher.
        \_ A&E and the History Channel had a one hour show in their classroom
           series about Christmas.  Basically, Chirstmas was a pagan holiday
           for a long time.  The Chirstian church couldn't suppress it so they
           co-opted it around the 4th century by turning it into a celebration
           of the birth of Christ.  Various theocratic governments including
           Cromwell in England and the Puritans in America specifically
           banned the celebration of Chirstmas because it was viewed as
           frivolous and non-Christian.  The modern form of Christmas we
           celebrate in the US started in the mid 1800s basically.
           \_ Eh, December was long celebrated by Christians before that,
              placing the conception in the spring and hence Christmas in
              December.  AFAIK Dec 25 was settled on because it *wasn't* the
              solstice and because it would give the pagans a party to choose
              instead of the solstice.
           \_ Yeah, and the 4th of July is a meaningless day too if you
              want to consider historicity.