10/22   Adobe is holding a College Open House next Thursday night (10/28) at
        our headquarters in downtown San Jose, for those of you who are into
        that new-college-grad-searching-for-job thing.  More details are
        posted in http://ucb.org.csua and other relevant newsgroups; E-mail me if
        you have any questions. -- kahogan
        \_ When are you coming on campus? I'm interested but am busy that night.
        \_ Is it just me or are companies recruiting earlier?
        \_ So you think this sys admin farm (CSUA) is a good place to recruit?
           \_ For cheap inexperienced but enthusiastic labor, sure.  Why pay
              $100k+ for someone who knows what they're doing when you can have
              two NCG CSUA members and have enough left over for a decent
              hiring bonus to bring in the $100k+ guy after to clean up?
           \_ Infosession on Nov. 11 (more details later on time and place),
              interviews at career center on Nov. 16 & 17.  -- kahogan
        \_ As a new hire in a big ass company, how many years do I have to
           spend debugging and testing before I can start doing something
           interesting?
                \_ 1.5 years in startups and then you'll be doing much more
                   interesting work at *any* company than you would otherwise
                   as a new college big-company-only wage slave.  Day one at
                   any startup would be better than what you're doing now.
                   You might as well work for the university.
                                --been there, smarter now
                   \_ startups== lotsawork, not much pay.
                        \_ You're at the wrong startup.  --low work, high pay
                        \_ most startups require a ton of work an half a
                           brain.  after talking to people from trilogy
                           and lame ass startups i've found that most
                           of these people don't know what they're talking
                           about and aren't technically apt.  all they know
                           how to do is stupid web pages and asp shit.
                           \_ known as "not doing proper research on your
                              company before signing papers".  It's your own
                              fault if you end up at a startup like that.
                           \_ that is what is known as a lame startup.  There
                              are good ones out there but you have to be
                              willing to look.  My advice is spend a year
                              or two in a not so glorious job learning the
                              way the real world works (and why it sucks
                              and why a good job is a must if you want
                              to sane) and making contacts and then once you
                              have saved up some money and don't need to take
                              a job right away, start looking and be choosy.
                              Oh and if you have to convince yourself that
                              you won't hate a certain job, you will hate it.
                                \_ Totally right on with that last line. 100%
          \_ I can't speak for other peoples' experience in *other* big-ass
             companies, but at Adobe I was doing something interesting within
             my first week.  Over the two-and-a-half years since I graduated
             from Cal, I've had my own big chunk of two major products
             (feature-owning, from spec-writing to implementation), as well
             as a part in some researchy-prototype stuff on the side.  My
             occasional corporate flack).  -- khogan
             experience hasn't been perfect, but I'm definitely happy and not
             bitter (as evidenced by my willingness to come back to Cal as an
             occasional corporate flack).  -- kahogan
                \_ Most large companies won't be like this.  Like all rules
                   (except this rule) there are exceptions.  In short, whether
                   you're applying to anything from IBM to http://Dinky-Startup.Com,
                   you must investigate during the interview process with your
                   potential manager/boss what they think you'll be doing on a
                   daily basis in the short and long term and what they think
                   short/long term means.  For me, short term is 2 weeks.  For
                   people used to a slower pace, short term is two years. You
                   must question, question, question.  Questions won't offend
                   and will only make you look less like a NCG idiot.  Just so
                   you know where I'm coming from, I hop from startup to
                   startup just to not be bored at work.  I haven't noticed
                   that large companies pay better than startups, but in
                   deference to kahogan I'll grant I've nveer applied to his
                   company.