1/30 So to summarize. The biochemical path taken by developing life was
swept clean by later, more sophisticated life such that no empirical
evidence exists for any biochemical path whatsoever. Moreover,
scientists don't have a complete, compelling theory, even though they
are unburdened by ANY possibly falsifying evidence. Well, I will say
that support for 'life started on earth' is about as strong as support
for any other hypothesis, including 'life started on mars', 'life started
on the moon', 'life was brought here by aliens,' etc. Keeping in mind
that mars and moon may have a better preserved record than earth, and
that aliens may have evolved like scientists think: from chemistry.
-- ilyas
\_ the problem with all this stuff is that you can always go one step
back and say "ok so how did that happen? what predates that?" all
the way to the 'beginning' of the universe (if there is such a
thing) and then you get into, "ok, so how did the universe come
about?" which leads to various religious concepts or the equally
oddball stuff coming from physics.
\_ what oddball stuff are you talking about?
\_ Yes but you only have to go back a little way before you start
running into contradictions with religions like Christianity.
(And no, I'm not talking about stuff like "virgin birth"; aside
from the biological debate, biblical details such as whether
someone was a virgin are impossible to verify.)
\_ A lot of it can be written off as errors in translation and
misunderstandings over time. Even so, if all religions could
somehow be proven to be untrue, you still have the same
problem with going back and back and back to "how did the
universe come into being, from what, and what was 'here'
before (wherever 'here' might be in that context?".
\_ Humans like to think things are magic. Historically they thought things
from weather to illness were supernaturally controlled. All through
history, the more we learn about the universe the more we see
how things result from natural processes. At the limits of observation
we don't have all the answers, but we can make reasonable conjectures
that don't involve magical beings. We know a lot of organisms for which
we have almost no fossil record (e.g. except in amber, which obviously
only existed in an advanced age). We have some chemical evidence for
self-replicating processes that could occur.
Humans also think things are magical when they are improbable. For
example, when a someone comes out unscathed from a huge disaster.
But these improbable things too have natural explanations. And it's
not improbable that the lottery will have a winner.
But these improbable things too have natural explanations.
otherwise. [moved because it made the other replies to op look like
replies to this which they weren't]
\_ Argument from history is not enough. I can also use such an
argument another way: 'Historically, we could always find some
intermediate form organism or "living fossil" living in the
backwoods of the amazon, or some deep sea trench. Why can't
we find the lifeform intermediate between a chemical and a
bacterium?' Personally, I find the existence of life truly
puzzling. Right now we have no answer. Nor did my alternative
hypotheses postulate magical beings (or magic of any kind),
although I don't reject magic either. I also have problems with
some feats attributed to evolution, but that's another story.
I don't see _any_ support for 'life started on earth' at this
moment. It's cheaper to assume spores traveled from mars, and
hope mars has something illuminating in the rocks, than to assume
carbon and hydrogen combined to form a replicating machine
involving three separate components (each a giant molecule), none
of which can function without the other two.
-- ilyas
\_ How so? How is it cheaper to assume spores traveling from Mars
than a primordial soup of amino acids getting a spark from
the nascent Earth atmosphere? In the first case you still need
to explain where the spores came from, and then explain how
it is they happen to be capable of surviving the journey from
Mars, not to mention what force caused them to suddenly
migrate to Earth at just the right moment to get sucked into
the Earth's orbit rather than the much more likely scenario of
the spores missing Earth completely and ending up in the Sun.
If you're willing to assume that many coincidences, why not
believe that the elements on Earth just happened to fuse in the
right way to form the essential amino acids that form the basis
for life?
\_ Because there are lots of spores, and they can survive the
trip (spores from bacteria on earth routinely go off into
outer space, they are found at all layers of the atmosphere).
Also, because it's more likely life arose on Mars, given a
good fossil record on Mars (which may or may not exist --
we don't know, but we can't rule it out), and traveled to
earth than it arose on earth, given no record before bacteria
at all. The missing variable here is whether there is
some location 'close by' where a good record exists. In my
mind the probability for something like that shoots up, if
there is nothing here on our rock. I don't buy the argument
that every single trace of pre-bacterial life simply
disappeared. It just never happened at any other stage of
life. -- ilyas
\_ 1) So because it never happened at any other stage of
life, _so far as we know_, it's unlikely to have
happened? 2) We have possible traces of pre-bacterial
life in the structure of our own cells and in our DNA.
3) If we find that fossil record on Mars or the Moon,
then I will certainly give your theory more credence;
until then, the idea that multi-cellular life is the
result of random molecules bonding and that subsequent
iterations of such life wiped out the traces or our
equipment is still too insensitive to detect the evidence
sounds much more likely. I don't expect to convince you,
but I do want you to understand why some of us disagree
with you.
\_ humans like to think probable things are improbable, due to
inappropriate assumption of (combinatorial) conditions that
are really independent...
Bottom line, there is more support for "life started on earth" than
otherwise.
\_ ok...so?
\_ the problem with all this stuff is that you can always go one step
back and say "ok so how did that happen? what predates that?" all
the way to the 'beginning' of the universe (if there is such a
thing) and then you get into, "ok, so how did the universe come
about?" which leads to various religious concepts or the equally
oddball stuff coming from physics.
\_ Yes but you only have to go back a little way before you start
running into contradictions with religions like Christianity. |