Academia Berkeley CSUA Motd - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/01/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2006/11/4-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Politics/Domestic] UID:45170 Activity:nil
11/04   Do people still want Joe Ayoob back in as QB? See motd from sept.
        \_ As if anyone here remembers any single obscure motd entry from two
           months ago that doesn't have to do with Dems vs. GOP or renters
           vs. homeowners.  Dolt.
           \_ Someone claimed that Nate Longshore was worse than Joe Ayoob,
              "Cal's worst quarterback ever." Cal is off to its best start in
               (?) decades.
           \_ Someone claimed that Nate Longshore was worse than Joe
              Ayoob, "Cal's worst quarterback ever." Cal is off to its
              best start in (?) decades.
               \_ 5 decades
2006/11/2-3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45113 Activity:nil
11/02   Does motdedit work for you all?  It just dumps me out with a
        successfull exit code (0).
        \_ Works for me (using it now). Check your $EDITOR environment
           variable. -gm
        \_ Only GIRLY MEN use motdedit. -overwritinator
2006/10/29-11/1 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45027 Activity:nil
10/29   Motd lawyers, help me: is it still legal for people to shove their
        flyers under my door? I'm this close to going postal on the next person
        who puts  a flyer on my doorknob.
        \_ Yes, it is.  Unless you can point me to some local city or county
           ordinance that prohibits the practice.
           \_ See, now, the point of my post was so that YOU would find the
              local or county ordinance for me. But thanks for playing.
              \_ See, now, the point of my post was that YOU did NOT ever
                 name which county or city you lived in, so answering your
                 question is absolutely impossible, unless you wanted
                 someone to go down, city-by-city, county-by-county, every
                 single public nuisance law and make an analysis.  The motd
                 response entry would then be about 50 pages long and would
                 take up several days of attorney time at my billable rate
                 of nearly 400 dollars an hour.  Tell me where to send the
                 bill, give me a $5,000 retainer, and I'll get started.
                 Until then, thanks for playing.
                 \_ How much did you bill your real client to write that stupid
                    little rant on the motd?
2006/10/24-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44955 Activity:nil
10/24   just want to say .. I started using google reader. and I found
        a decent motd rss feed ... its awesome. I'm back to motd
        reading after a few months of not -- been getting more into
        various blogs. maybe I'm just writing this to see my own
        name in the google reader. no but really, fyi, its cool.
        \_ Which motd feed are you using?
           \_ I'm hesitant to say ... is having a motd feed w/in
              the rules of the politburo? I dont want to get it
              shut down ... and I dont know if the creator wants
              the notoriety.
2006/9/28-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44596 Activity:nil
9/28    Gotta love the motd: Eviscerating the Constitution only gets one
        comment, but huffing and puffing about a China-U.S. lesbian fantasy
        gets a dozen posts!
        \_ that usually happens when most people realize how fucked up it is.
           motd fosters arguments, but not so much rants.
2006/9/19-21 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44440 Activity:moderate
9/19    emarkp, running wall through a filter so you don't have to read
        swear words is pretty insane, but please don't start filtering
        stuff I read too.  That really bugs me.  I know motd is offensive
        sometimes, but there's that pesky 1st amendment.  Go live in
        the fucking nazi germany that the other right wingers are trying to put
        us in and leave motd alone.    -brain
        \_ I think you need to read the definition of insane.  My "censoring"
           is deleting anonymous trolls addressed to me.  I have as much right
           to delete it as trolls have to post it.  Or is no one allowed to
           delete posts on motd? -emarkp (thanks for signing your name at least)
        \_ Thanks brain for standing up to this religious bully.  Most of
           us are too scared to stand up to him let alone sign our names.
           I mean, what if he passes my name to the Mormons who keep on
           I mean, what if he passes my name to the fucking Mormons who keep on
           knocking on my door? Scary. Anyways thanks brain.
        \_ You're being a mean b!
        \_ automunging of the motd is verboten.  don't do it.
        \_ automunging of the fucking motd is verboten.  don't do it.
        \_ Whoever restored this from a few days ago--why didn't you restore my
           reply? -emarkp
2006/8/19-23 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Recreation/Music] UID:44070 Activity:low
8/19    The only country music station in Los Angeles, KZLA 93.9 will
        finally stop airing. All the annoying billboards like "Ride a
        Cowboy" will also stop. YAY!!!
        \_ Could this mean that sattelite radio is taking over?  If all the shit
           between 87 MHz and 108 MHz were to go off the air, I would not cry.
        \_ It's a dark dark day for us rednecks and Republicans. :( :( :(
        \_ And you care enough to post to the Berkeley motd about some
           random LA radio station because...?
           \_ Because I move to LA                      -alum
           \_ Because I moved to LA. -alumnus (motd grammar god was here)
           \_ Yeah, make way for more important stuff like the Zombie
              Preparedness Kit.
              \_ The ZPK has more value to the motd than blather about some
                 radio station in another part of the country.  Would you like
                 to hear about how when I was 12 the local radio station over
                 the border in NJ would play really bad music but then they
                 went off the air and got replaced by another bad radio
                 station?  No, didn't think so.  Boring.
        \_ Go Top 40 music!  -KIIS-FM fan
           \_ Sat radio sucks ASS.  Poor quality, commercials on most stations,
              it's going to be bankrupt in ~4 years.  Someone else will buy
              their debt/etc and restart the system and run it properly.
2006/8/16-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44033 Activity:nil
8/16    Hey motd average dude, you are fucking boring.  Your friend.
        \_ seconded -average motd reader
           \_ I agree.  -average motd reader's friend
        \_ I will try harder deleting political shit
           \_ Oh, God, not this again.  Look, fucker.  Many people have
              taken it upon themselves to rid the motd of politics, all
              have failed.  You will fail also, you'll just stir up the motd
              and make it a zoo for a couple of weeks and make a lot of
              people hate you.  Other than that, you will change nothing.
           \_ How about you try harder to grow up and just ignore it?
2006/8/8-11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43946 Activity:nil
8/8     As tom pointed out earlier, due to the controversy of putting ads on
        the Berkeley MOTD for non-profit reason on a campus network, the
        experiment will not begin. There is a chance that the entire site
        will be moved off-site, on a non-Berkeley affiliated network. The
        ETA for the site migration will probably be some time this year.
        Until then, no ads will be shown, and the Berkeley MOTD will still
        be served at the same exact same url. Thanks for your patience. -kchang
        \_ tom, if CSUA solicits PayPal payments where PayPal takes a
           2.7% cut in profit, wouldn't such solicitation be questionable
           since commerical businesses are involved?
           \_ I doubt it; the CSUA in that case is paying for a service,
              not advertising a company.  -tom
              \_ tom, when we hold infosessions for companies and they
                 give us free HP Rubix's Cube or free Yahoo shirts, aren't
                 we advertising those corporations in return for toys?
                 \_ Again, a job session is in service of Berkeley students;
                    adwords are not.  But really, don't ask me, ask the
                    policy people; that's all I suggested.  -tom
              \_ Gosh darn it.So  what are other ways CSUA can generate
                 revenues? It would be nice to buy current text books.
                 The ones in our library has mostly useless and outdated
                 books. Extra Xbox games would also be nice.
                 \_ Again, the most effective way to raise money is by begging
                    alumni or threatening to shutdown soda by claiming that
                    the hardware is inadequate to handle heavy loads.
                    Oh wait, that already happened earlier this year when we
                    had a week long simulated shutdown. Good job guys.
                 \_ Bake sale?  I'd just make sure you don't buy texts
                    used in classes--theft...
                 \_ Men of EECS, erotic calender!
                    \_ I'm going to go wash my eyeballs with soap for having
                       read that.
                       \_ The scary part is, it's been done.  (Squelch,
                          circa 1991).  -tom
                          \_ urlP? Curious.
                          \_ September 2000. -gm
                             \_ Maybe they did it twice; the time I'm thinking
                                of was way before Y2K.  thepro was on the
                                cover.  It predated online versions.  -tom
2006/8/7-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43938 Activity:nil
        Per Politburo's approval, the Berkeley Motd (formerly known as
        KAIS MOTD) will have advertisements on the right side, with proceeds
        going back to CSUA. Hopefully, people searching for UNIX help or
        looking for Intel chip info or any interesting and helpful topics
        on motd, will lead to more people clicking on the ads. In general
        the more technically helpful the topic is, the more click-thru-rates
        we'll get, so go ahead and contribute good contents [minus mindless
        political discussions] on motd for the sake of CSUA!        -kchang
        \_ What are the rates, and are there CSUA discounts?
        \_ PS I haven't added the ads yet. It should be there some time
           towards the end of this week. I just applied for an account
           (5:20PM today) and it returned "Your application has now been
           submitted for review and we will follow up with you by email in
           1-2 days." We'll have to wait. BTW I've never done this before,
           has anyone used the ad services from major ad companies before,
           and what kind of advice do you have? Thanks.
        \_ Alright, CSUA charity click fraud!
           \_ I kindly ask people to not click on the ads for the pure sake
              of generating revenue for CSUA. It is dishonest and does
              everyone a big disfavor, including ad consumers and ad
              producers. Ads that get excessive CTRs will in fact get tagged
              and future Berkeley sites may be subject to bans, and we may
              stop getting any revenue. Please click on the ads only if
              you're genuinely interested in buying the products.
                Lastly may I add that this is only an experiment, and may
              end should it fail. For example, it may fail to generate enough
              CTRs, too much CTRs (which gets us banned), or any other
              unforseable problems.
        \_ Don't be so sure. Political topics should generate lots of
           ads now that Nov 2006 is coming near!
           \_ Uh, like Vote For Pedro t-shirts and hats?
              \_ Vote for Pedro.  -pedro
              \_ What is up with the "Pedro" meme anyway?  Where is that
                \_ From the movie Napoleon Dynamite, you illiterate,
                   non-movie going ignoramus.  -pedro
        \_ Has the politburo checked with the campus policy people as to
           whether this is legal?  It's a risky area.  -tom
           \_ Excellent point tom. As someone who is intimately familiar
              with the University, do you think this would this be very
              different than say, ethnic groups in front of Sproul Hall
              selling ethnic food for club fund raising?
              \_ Yes, it's quite a bit different, because it involves
                 corporate businesses.  If La Raza let Taco Bell sell
                 burritos at their table on Sproul and took a share of
                 the profits, there would be some serious questions
                 about the appropriateness of the activity.
                 The Electronic Communications Policy says:

                 "University electronic communications resources may
                  not be used for: ...
                  * commercial purposes not under the auspices of the

                 If KAIS MOTD were hosted somewhere else, as it used to
                 be, it might not be an issue, but I think it's very likely
                 a problem while it's hosted on a Berkeley machine.  -tom
                 \_ Interesting. Oh well too bad.
2006/7/20-23 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43737 Activity:nil
7/20    If you click on individual UIDs on the Berkeley Motd you
        may see somewhat relevant links below the line "You may also
        be interested in these entries." Below is an example:
2006/7/8-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43591 Activity:nil 50%like:43645
7/8     Berkeley MOTD's search feature is back. Have fun.
        \_ thanks!! kchang
2022/01/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2006/7/3-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43554 Activity:nil
7/3     Will KAIS MOTD have search capability turned on again?
        \_ No. Stop asking. Write your own.
        \_ I stupidly coded the site such that some features need the suexec
           capability (where cgi scripts that I as user kchang will run as
           kchang instead of "nobody"), but it is disabled and I'm just too
           lazy to spend any time trying to make features work without it. If
           enough people petition root to turn it on then it may
           just happen. BTW only the 24 hour diff and admin modify features
           really need suexec. Search doesn't really need suexec
           but I just don't have time or energy to play around with the code
           right now.                                           -kchang
           \_ root, can we give kchan suexec access since he is doing a such
              great public service for greater CSUA community?
              \_ why we run without suexec (or cgiwrap) is beyond me.
                 \_ I can tell you why. The noobs trying to learn the zen of
                    soda sysadm think that suexec is like setuid, it has
                    that scary "su" and "exec" keywords that sound like a
                    something that would compromise soda.
                    \_ Isn't it more dangerous to run suexec and setuid?
                    \_ They're learning. soda is not for the alumni, it's for
                       the undergrads. They'll come around in time.
2006/7/1-5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43547 Activity:low
6/30    England demonstrates that they are able to kick the ball right to
        the goalkeeper.
        \_ Lame.  He _was_ good.  If Rooney hadn't demonstrated that he was
           able to kick the balls... -John
        \_ updated: 0100
           Next match: July 4
           \_ What is the point of this.  Why dont you just send people
              to the FIFA/Yahoo site:
              \_ Did you miss the memo when I first started posting this
                 when I said you could just go to
                 Ah, obviously you did. Mostly it's for my own interest.
                 If this offends you, please remember to cut vertically,
                 not horizontally.
                 \_ Can you also start posting DJIA numbers and the GOOG
                    price every hour in the motd?  Dude, I wasn't *offended*
                    you were doing this...I was just curious if I was missing
                    some value you were providing that was not available on
                    the Yahoo site.  Apparently not.  If people want to go
                    to a pdf instead of html and one that is far more lagged
                    in time, I don't want to stop them.  If your "interest"
                    is sated by filling in numbers, maybe you are the one
                    with little to live for.  For some extra amusement,
                    maybe you can also make the motd available as a PDF
                    on your website!
                    \_ Can you make that motd.pdf searchable by KAIS MOTD?
                       Thanks!  ;-)
                    \_ Sorry, no added benefit. Just my own hobby. Also, it
                       takes less than five minutes per update to complete,
                       so I still have time to short GOOG, troll freepers,
                       ride bike, and wonder what BUD DAY would say.
2006/6/27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43511 Activity:nil
6/27    mtd: open /etc/motd: Permission denied
        \_ Some root type needs to chmod g+w /etc/motd
2006/6/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:43431 Activity:low
6/19    The motd is just not the same after account reactivation. So
        boring, where did all the troller's go? How am I supposed to
        get through my workday??!!
        \_ They didn't let certain people come back.
        \_ Don't worry, with the latest hack, there are lots of new people on!
        \_ The motd isn't here to entertain you.  You want trolls?  Start
           trolling.  The motd is what we all make of it.  I know you're
           kidding.  I'm not.
           \_ There's a difference between knowing the troll, and walking
              the troll.
           \_ Dere's some difference between knowin' de troll, an' walkin'
              de troll.  What it is, Mama!
        \_ The ratio of interesting poster to idiot is at a 5 year low.
           \_ You sure you don't have it backwards?  Trolling seems down to me.
        \_ Sorry, too busy to do my usual muckracking/trolling. -Great Swami
        \_ Let's see.. Guns are good. Guns are bad. Drivers' license for
           illegals violates Article 1, Section 10.
2006/5/26-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43202 Activity:nil
5/26    Hallaluja, I'm back on the motd.  Where's motdedit?
        \_ /csua/bin/motdedit
           \_ *now* it is, can we get a "me" softlink to that badboy too?
2006/5/24-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43170 Activity:low
5/24    In response to the moronic-nutjob-Stormfront-links, I wrote a script to
        watch which hozers are editing the motd. To catch the bastard, merely
        edit the motd with a reply giving a timestamp as soon as you notice it.
        I'll come a running. And yes, your secrets are safe with me.
        \_ If you have the power to squish, you should squish. Personally,
           I'm offended by the ranting racist freeper URLs and I'm tired
           of whoever's been posting them. They add little value to motd
           and offend me greatly, not to mention it borders on harrasing
           everyone else, and most importantly, "being a h0zer" which is
           a squishable offense. I ask you kindly to squish whoever's
           been posting these things. Thank you michener.
        \_ You just need to catch whoever's doing the following:
           % vi freerepublic
           % cat freerepublic /etc/motd.public > temp
           % cp temp /etc/motd.public
           I already know who's been doing this without using a script.
           \_ How do you know I am not mounting Soda's drives with
              FUSEFS and SSH on my home linux box?
              White Power!  14 Words! - danh
        \_ What about people who use scp?
        \_ I'm confused as to what you're requesting. Also, can we view your
           source? I'm just interested in how you're doing this.
           \_ How I was doing it is ~michener/watchmotdprocesses
           \_ Only using what anybody else could watch. Essentially, it's
              logging the output of ps to a file. ~michener/watchmotdprocesses
              for the full script.
           \_ Essentially, what I'd like is this:
                Wed May 24 10:56:15 PDT 2006
              \_ I asked bc I thought you were doing something cool/tricky
                 like what kchang is doing. but i don't know what he's doing
                 and he already gets a lot of shit for not being accurate.
                 Kchang, how does your name-guessing algorithm work?
                 \_ It's actually not that complicated. I assign villain
                    names to people based on a badly written semi-random
                    generator so certain people will get assigned to certain
                    villain names more frequently than the others. Why this
                    fascinates people who try to reverse engineer it,
                    baffles me a lot. I guess people like mysteries and
                    thrive on solving puzzles that don't exist in the
                    first place.                                -kchang
                    \_ The pp is asking about the actual person detection
                       process you use, assuming it's something better than
                       michener's running ps every 2 seconds. Like, maybe
                       you are also seeing who is idle/not idle when motd
                       changes. You must have something like that for
                       your "these people maybe did it" lists. I'm no
                       unix expert though and there are probably tools
                       I don't know about that would also help. Especially
                       with root access.
                       \_ My information gathering mechanism is exactly what
                          michener uses, albeit a lot more probalistic based
                          post-processing involved. In another word, it does
                          not catch people doing scp, CGI-BIN based writes,
                          cp, or countless other mechanisms that escape the
                          "ps aux" call. If you are on the network like some
                          people in soda, you can definitely write a sniffer
                          and a motd-change correlator, and correlate IP,
                          scp actions, and motd changes and find the perp.
                          There are other things you can do. However, the
                          only solution that'll catch every single person is
                          a solution that requires root.        -kchang
        \_ Why does it require any response?  How is this any different than
           the phone lines being tapped "for our protection"?  And once you
           eventually do figure out who it is, then what?  Squish them?  What
           about that whole free speech thing?  Does that only apply to people
           we agree with?  I find the posts repulsive and just ignore them
           without comment.  Feeding the trolls only makes it worse.
           \_ I'll stop if it's too big a problem, but frankly, imo, whoever's
              trolling deserves reprimand and potential sorryage. With politb
              approval for the sorry, of course.
        \_ Alright, fine. Stopped. You deal with the fucker. Just expect me
           to be around motd less. --michener
              \_ Reprimand for what?  Posting perfectly legal political views
                 that don't match yours?  I'm totally serious.  I don't see
                 squishing people for posting their views to be appropriate at
                 what is supposed to be a liberal university.  How about
                 instead you ignore them or refute them?  Censorship and book
                 burning is not the answer.
                 \_ I agree with this.  I don't like those posts any more
                    than the rest of you, and I appreciate michener's intent,
                    but censorship / squishage based on our opinions of
                    what's reasonable doesn't seem appropriate.  -niloc
                    (I'm not saying logging would be wrong, necessarily.)
                    (I also acknowledge that certain posts, i.e. death
                    threats etc may be exceptions, and the line may be fuzzy.)
                    \_ Threats of harm, physical or otherwise, cross the line
                       from philosophical points about free speech and
                       censorship and into, well, harm.  I'd be ok with
                       stripping anonymity from the motd, so long as it was
                       truly stripped; I'd want the names to be public to
                       everyone, not just root and someone's buddy.  Otherwise
                       just leave it as it is.  As long as we're talking about
                       who posts what, I think edits and deletes should be
                       logged too if the motd goes that way.
        \_ Alright, fine. Stopped. Log deleted. You deal with the fucker.
           Just expect me to be around motd less. --michener
           \_ Addendum. You can't win if you try on soda. You have people
              bitching because this kind of stuff shows up on motd. You
              have (anonymous!) people bitching if you try to stop it.
              I am jaded. --michener
              \_ It isn't your responsibility to 'fix' it and I still don't
                 think anything is broken anyway.  Also, I don't think your
                 script would catch them.  I think your heart was in the
                 right place, but the people bitching about it should either
                 refute it or ignore it.  Censorship is never the answer.
                 \_ I'll be frank -- I think that trolling is trolling,
                    whether white-supremicist or tree-huggers. I want it
                    stopped, but recognize that I was pushing lines of power.
                    And yes, it is my responsibility. soda is my responsibility
                    and I want to make sure y'all have a good time, alums too.
                    That's all. Just so much conflict that, like I say, I'm
                    out, man, bitching on both sides is more likely to be
                    ignored now. --michener
                    \_ You'll also notice that the script used no power that
                       an average user doesn't have. Anybody could be watching
                       and remember that. --michener
                       \_ The script you posted is really not effective,
                          as most of the trolls have long ago figured out
                          ways to mask their edits.  (For example, reiffin
                          is very clever with "jove blah").  I think if the
                          politburo wants to do something about distasteful
                          or hate speech in the MOTD (which I think is a
                          reasonable thing to do), there's a simple,
                          effective solution; log edits.   -tom
                          \_ Noted. --michener
                          \_ Thanks for the show of support tom.  My technical
                             abilities are a bit higher than using a temp file
                             to hide anything especially since I told you years
                             ago I used 'blah' as my local copy.  If I was
                             trying to hide anything I'd do a better job than
                             that and I wouldn't tell you what I was doing.
                             The fact is I'm not doing anything special to
                             'cover' my motd edits because I have nothing to
                             hide.  If you're going to call anyone out, at
                             least get it right.  Have a nice day.
                             \_ Hey michener! The above was posted at 3:21PM,
                                can you find out who posted it?
          \_ michener you can do what you like really. I am in favor of
             squishing this particular troll. It's a judgment call, sure, and
             it's pretty obvious to me this moron has nothing to say that's
             of any substance. Just because some other anonymous douche is
             worried about it doesn't mean you have to give up. You have the
             power to decide which course of action is better. You can
             bet that with our group there's gonna be dissenters on any
             decision... better IMHO to listen their comments but stick to
             what you feel is right. After all that's why we have positions
             of power and elections. The reason for squishing the moron/troll
             isn't about censoring opinions. It's about harassment ultimately
             and these very few anonymous morons have already driven away
             plenty of folks from the motd. Maybe that's no big deal but if
             we happen to find out who it is then just pull the trigger.
             \_ or you can just delete the MOTD every 3 minutes like paolo
                \_ Or you can keep bitching about paolo like tom did
                   \_ Or you can practice revisionist history like dans did
             \_ I think my current stance for the time being (and probably the
                summer) will be squish him if we figure out who it is by some
                telltale sign or other, and discuss motd trolls first time I
                can unite the politburo. --michener
                \_ Remember, we went through this just last
                   semester. -jrleek
                \_ Remember, we went through this just last semester. -jrleek
                   \_ Wow, how curious that this comes up once again.  The
                      CSUA doth move in cycles.  Well to summarize my
                      understanding of the decision in the past it was that
                      we would purposefully not log the motd, for a number of
                      reasons, one of which, personal privacy, and another of
                      which, the mere existence of logs allows them to be
                      susceptible to a subpeona (say someone threatens to kill
                      someone... etc).  I think we made the right decision
                      then, this particular world editable cesspool works well
                      enough through personal censorship.  It was also agreed
                      that the only real definitive way to log motd edits
                      would be with a kernel patch.  Also, at one time there
                      was work (or at least interest in) a much more protected
                      form of MOTD editing than /csua/bin/motdedit (which
                      would make it harder for people to log users' edits).
2006/5/22-28 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43152 Activity:nil
5/22    Yet another wave of mental midgetry washes over the CSUA.  Bright
        young undergrads who wanted the motd web-indexed:  this is one of
        the main reasons why people were arguing against it.  -John
        \_ Please stop trolling us and just tell us whether you sympathize
           with the Nazis or not. I don't know enough Swiss to say
           whether a big proportion of them are Nazi sympathizers or not,
           but I know first hand that many Austrians are. If you give a
           straightforward yes (I'm a Nazi sympathizer) or no (I'm not
           a Nazi sympathizer), I promise to leave you alone. Deal?
           \_ Jesus H Christ, get some medication, son.  You've been obsessing
              about this junk nonstop for waaaay too long.  It's not only
              stupid, it's boring.              -mice
           \_ You're a pathetic moron.  John doesn't have to say anything
              for you, anonymous coward.  If you're going to name other
              people, post your own name, you fetid pile of refuse.

           \_ Um, you know that Solomon is a *fucking*Jewish*name* right?
           \_ Um, you know that Salomon is a *fucking*Jewish*name* right?
              You do know that John is Jewish right? I don't have to explain
              this to you, do I?
        \_ ...stormfront and white-history. Good grief, Charlie Brown, who
           gave the nutcases motd accounts?
        \_ FYI, the current undergrads had nothing to do with motd indexing.
           I only wrote the wallall RSS script. And that has been hidden from
           Google. It was some predecessor who did the web MOTD. If you'd like,
           in the near future I can look into hiding it too. In other words,
           quitcherbitchin. ;) --michener
           \_ kchang put some effort into getting rid of the
              identifiers to protect the guilty.  maybe you can too.

----------stupidity below this line----------
2006/5/12-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43042 Activity:nil
5/12    Is it just me or is motdedit hozing a lot of change merges
        lately?  -John
        \_ If there's any doubt, it's almost definitely you.      -mice
        \_ What happened to /csua/bin/me ? That's what I used to use?
2006/5/10-12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW/Security] UID:43004 Activity:nil
5/10    Can we get kais motd intellidiff back now that cgi is re-enabled?
        \_ No. "suexec" is not enabled so it is run as "nobody", which means
           I need to make EVERYTHING world readable, including the index.cgi
           in which I embed mysql password. I am not enabling anything
           back till suexec is added. Until then, soda is insecure, and
           I'm not going to risk security for convenience.    -kchang
           \_ root: Can we get suexec set up? -intellidiff #1 fan
           \_ Mysql has fairly granular permissions.  Why not set up an
              account that has read-only access to the appropriate tables?
              \_ Because it also needs to write to certain directories/files.
                 In the end it's a lot of trouble and I don't have
                 time to code a workaround now. Look. Enabling suexec
                 takes 30 seconds, so it is a solution that has a much
                 higher work/time ratio. I'm no no hurry. I can wait. -kchang
                 higher work/time ratio. I'm in no hurry. I can wait. -kchang
              \_ How can we access mysql from soda?
                 \_ I compiled my private copy on a separate port and
                    not sharing it                              -kchang
2006/5/9-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42998 Activity:nil
5/9     Formatted most flagrant 80 column violations back to sanity.  The
        motd formatting god grows angry.  We should all fear its wrath.
        \_ Can't computers do this automatically these days?
           \_ Yeah, but this is the CSUA.  Lots of alumni love circa 1980
              approaches to problems.
              \_ Because we know the students will come up with some
                 incredibly brilliant technical solution just to spite us
                 curmudgeons.  We wouldn't want to deprive you of the
                 learning opportunity.  -John
2006/5/1-4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42871 Activity:nil
4/30    hello.  i do not think the wall logs should be on the web
        so easily.  what do you think?
        \_ Wasn't it always on the web in a txt file before?
        \_ Can we get motd in RSS too?
           \_ Couple problems with that:
                1) It's more like a message board than a feed
                2) All it takes is one person to booch the formatting
                   (unlike wall.log, which is consistent enough)
                   and the whole the whole thing stops working
                mrauser's working on a message board anyway, stay tuned
                \_ Actually, someone did roll a motd -> rss feed script, but I
                   don't know what's become of it.  If it's lost and I find
                   some time, I'll do it as an excuse to learn RSS/Atom. -dans
                   \_ I wrote one, but cgi scripts still are not working
                      in my cgi-bin directory.  I get "Access forbidden"
                      when I try to run them. -peterl
                      \_ looks like there's a bug in the httpd.conf:
                      <Directory /home/*/*/public_html>
                             AllowOverride FileInfo AuthConfig Limit
                             Options Indexes IncludesNoExec SymLinksIfOwnerMatch
                      (note the "ExecCGI not on the same line as "Options")
                      If it were on the same line, you'd be able to put an
                      executable .cgi file anywhere under ~/public_html and
                      it would work.  --dbushong
           \_ Yeah, I built an RSS feed of but it just sends
              you an entire thread every time there's a change to any part
              of it.  Meh.  --dbushong
        \_ It's WALL! It's not like you're posting trade secrets or steamy
           sex tapes. And if you're walling such things, I think you want
                    \_ Or tax returns. Oh, wait...
           them to be found.... mostly it's inane chatter, but it's our
           inane chatter, and we can track it now -- and to outsiders, it
           reads like what it is. Inane chatter. --michener
           \_ It's already tracked (or at least was before Soda got
              paved) in /csua/lib/wall .  Or did you not know that already?
              Why do you want to make wall so easily crawlable by Google?
           \_ I think there's a realistic concern for expectation of privacy.
              Lots of people wall things like "my boss is an idiot," which
              are not trade secrets but which would not be walled if the
              expectation were that it would wind up on Google.  -tom
              \_ Which is why you have the choice of whether or not to log
                 your walls.
                \_ I think that's stupid.  How would you feel if all
                   of your IRC and AIM and Yahoo IM and Google Chat
                   conversations appeared when someone searches or
                   stumbles on your name in Google?
                   \_ Ah, but they don't.  And wall doesn't have to if you
                      don't want it to.
                      \_ Are you a retard?  I am making up a situation
                         to illustrate my point.  If you start archiving
                         the wall log on google, this stuff will happen.
                         I have some pretty funny wall logs saved from
                         years ago where someone on soda accidentally
                         walls about some horrible things that I will not
                         mention because you will be scarred for life.
                         I would never ever put this somewhere google
                         would find it.   Making everyone not log their
                         walls is stupid.
                         \_ Erm.  Some people don't care whether what they
                            say is available to the public.  Wall has been
                            \_ maybe you should start caring.  I think
                               arbitrarily sticking soda walls on google
                               when soda walls predate google by like
                               10 years is not the correct way to do things.
                               \_ Uh, we've always done it this way so we
                                  should keep doing it this way?  That's
                                  idiotic. -dans
                            public for a long time.  The non-logging option
                            was put in for those who _were_ concerned.  If
                            you want to use it, use it.  If you're worried
                            about someone saving your non-logged walls, don't
                            wall.  Who said anything about "making everyone
                            not log their walls"?
                            btw, RealClimate guy, you just overwrote me.
                            merge your changes.
                 \_ That's not a reasonable response.  -tom
                 \_ That's not a reasonable response.  -tom, arbiter of all
                                                             things reasonable
                    \_ IIRC, that's exactly why that functionality was written
                       into wallall.  Also when lwall/walld was still running,
                       walls were publicly read/write available
                       \_ "publicly readable" is not the same as "indexed
                          by Google."  And it is quite annoying when people
                          don't log their walls.  -tom
                          don't log their walls.  -tom hasn't attended a
                                                       politubro meeting or
                                                       csua event in years
                                                       despite working on the
                                                       Berkeley campus, but
                                                       still feels the
                                                       politburo and the
                                                       undergrads should do
                                                       what he wants, when he
                                                       wants it.  tom commands
                                                       the politburo to give
                                                       him a blow job!
                       \_ Logging walls is so you can do a tail -whatever !*
                          wall_log when you log in and see the context of an
                          ongoing conversation, not to make it public ("public"
                          in this case being visible and indexed on the great
                          big Internet.)  Meditate briefly on the difference,
                          young padawan--great truths may be revealed.  -John
                       \_ Oh, look, an undergrad wrote some code to do
                          something new, and it messes with the little sandbox
                          we've been playing in for the last decade!  Wah Wah!
                          Let's lynch the upstart prick!  Seriously though, I
                          am disgusted by how certain alums treat soda and the
                          CSUA as their personal pissing ground, expect that
                          *nothing* will ever change, and abuse undergrads who
                          actually write interesting software.  The situation
                          is fucked up.  It needs to stop. -dans
                          \_ Take a chill pill, dans.  This is about a
                             specific feature that would have undesirable
                             consequences for both undergrads and alumns.
                             Don't turn it into some battle of the ages between
                             us evil alumns and the poor oppressed undergrads
                             we're constantly shitting on.  -John
                          \_ Um I don't think disagreeing with an idea counts
                             as abuse. The root post of this thread is just
                             someone expressing an opinion. Get over yourself.
                             The RSS thing is kind of cool but personally, I
                             don't think wall fits what RSS is for. Just
                             because you can do something doesn't mean you
                             should. But I hardly even use wall anyway so it
                             doesn't really matter to me.
                             What actually is the point of wall going out as
                             an RSS feed? wall is more of a real time
                             conversation mechanism, not a news feed thing.
                             Having motd.[official and/or unofficial] on it
                             would make more sense.
                             \_ No, disagreeing with an idea is not abuse, but
                                when specific alumni repeatedly gang up
                                against the undergrads, flame the politburo
                                and root, and troll the motd, it adds up to
                                abuse.  What's so fucked about this situation
                                \_ Well you know, geeks sometimes don't have
                                   the best social skills. They attack
                                      \_ Then maybe we should go back to
                                         beating social skills into them.
                                   everything because this is how they function
                                   in their engineering jobs. But they might
                                   not be wrong.
                                is that there is a technological solution for
                                enabling wallrss while stopping Google from
                                spidering it, but none of the alums who bitch
                                so loudly are stepping up with code or configs
                                to solve the problem.  Why the hell should the
                                alumni get to decide what the undergrads can
                                and can't do?  That's stupid. -dans
                                to solve the problem.  Just becaus you can do
                                      \_ I'm still waiting for action on
                                         the last two things I've "stepped up"
                                         \_ Namely?  Maybe the ugrads are more
                                            interested in rolling new
                                            functionality than trying to
                                            recreate soda exactly the way it
                                            has been for the last decade?
                                            Maybe they're busy kids doing this
                                            in their spare time, not treating
                                            CSUA root work as a paid job. -dans
                                            \_ perhaps they (or you) shouldn't
                                               suggest mailing root and stepping
                                               up then
                                               \_ Hey, if they (or I) can con
                                                  you into doing free work,
                                                  but pick and choose what we
                                                  implement when, more power
                                                  to us. -dans
                                                  \_ yes, it's always better
                                                     to jerk people around.
                                                     this is why people bitch
                                                     instead of doing stuff.
              \_ Actually, I find a mixture of jerking people around and
                 rewarding them works best.  It simulates gambling, which
                 causes people to work like madmen. -dans
                 \_ I hope this is a feeble attempt at humor....
                    \_ No, I find it's a legitimate management technique of
                       last resort.  Works nicely with ornery, lazy teams, but
                       isn't really necessary for teams of smart folks who get
                       things done. -dans
                                something doesn't mean you should, but if you
                                use that as an excuse never to do anything,
                                nothing would ever change. -dans
2006/4/26-5/2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42838 Activity:nil
        Berkeley MOTD is back in the form of static HTML. Search and
        other features (24 Hour Diff) disabled since they require
        dynamic CGIs. Enjoy!
2006/4/23-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42806 Activity:nil
4/22    From the minutes: "mrauser says he will look into setting up a
        non-motd forum."
        Farewell, motd. Nice knowing you.
        \_ That's in addition to the motd, not instead of it.
           \_ Will the new moderated forum allow us to expose dans as a
              total nut case?
                    \_ er, hasn't this already been exposed to anyone
                       paying attention?
              \_ I'd be more impressed if the new forum had a way to
                 hide the fact.
        \_ If you want to host the source for let me
           know and it's all yours.  If you want something that's actually
           forum-like, nevermind.  --dbushong
2006/4/21-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42795 Activity:nil
4/21    Um, does anyone miss the Berkeley MOTD? I guess not :(( -kchang
        \_ I'll massage your ego.  Yes I miss it but I figured it was still
           down pending more important fixes.
           \_ Ok good. I was thinking about turning it off for good, as
              it may cut down on time wasted on it and maybe even
              increase productivity, or something to that effect  -kchang
           \_ useful for the search feature -- better than skimming
              cvs diffs.  But I don't need to search all that often anyways
        \_ It's very useful when the motd is hoppin', especially the
           diff feature.  However, the motd isn't as busy as usual right
           now, since not everyone is back from the crash yet.  I like
           Berkeley MOTD, but I don't need it so much right now. -jrleek
2006/4/17-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42766 Activity:moderate
4/17    I would like to start a list of thing for root to fix at their
        leisure (in no particular order):
        - restore /csua/tmp
        - Appears /etc/motd.public is not merged into /etc/motd
        - tin (yes, I still use it to read usenet).
        \_ trn, mtd
        \_ dict
        \_ tin (I was the op, but this either got deleted by accident or
           it is installed.  If installed, please point me to the correct
           directory.  Thanks).
        \_ mtd does not have proper permissions to do this.
        \_ motdwatch
        \_ me (motdedit)
           \_ /csua/bin/motdedit
           \_ What in motdedit doesn't work?  I believe the only error in it
              is that it is running /csua/bin/mtd (the merging script) after
              you finish editing.  I think its working fine except for the
              mtd program being borked.
        \_ curl
        \_ apache cgi
           \_ turning cgi off in homedirs was a concious choice, we wanted
              to give people the time to check out thier websites to make
              sure that they weren't messed with.  Allowing cgi's to be run
              from user's homedirs could potentially allow the machine to be
              compromised very soon after the re-install.
              It was either disable them, or chmod 700 to _everyones_ public
              html folder.  I apologise if its inconvenient, but we will
              re-enable them after a few more people have thier accounts
              \_ Perhaps as a temporary measure, you can make ExecCGI one of
                 the options that people may override in their .htaccess files
                 (see AllowOverride) so individuals may turn their cgi's back
                 on? -dans
        \_ past wall logs aaron deleted
           \_ waah waah you stupid cunt
        \_ jove
        \_ motdbrowser
           \_ never heard of it
        \_ jove
           \_ Take this opportunity to learn emacs.  Installing
              jove is a personal accomodation we dont have the
              luxury to bother with.
2006/4/17-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42764 Activity:kinda low
4/17    Interesting.  Did all of the people that troll the motd with political
        stuff forget to turn their accounts back on?
        \_ Who are some of the users you will not miss? dans? tom? ilyas?
        \_ Root is likely still in process of adding access back for everyone.
           They'll be back -- it's just going to take a little time.
        \_ shut up. I'm enjoying their lack of presence right now.
        \_ Cool.  This supports my hypothesis that they are parasites who
           treat soda as a pissing ground, and think the motd is their
           personal playground.  Good riddance. -dans
           \_ That sounds like the sort of thing a hippy tree-hugger would
              say.  Why do you hate our troops?
              \_ Because they kill people and killing is wrong!  The Bible
                 says so! -hippy bible thumper
           \_ Hi dans, want to argue about world population and birth control?
              \_ No. -dans
        \_ don't want to risk of having account terminated due to certain
           political view.  Right now, it's too easy to blame Soda for
2006/4/17-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42760 Activity:nil
4/17    Our quota increased by a lot. What are some of the reasons why we
        must keep /csua/tmp/*, besides storing tons *.mp3/mpg/avi files
        around for eons?
        \_ It's a bigger /tmp for sharing things.
           \_ Ok, then autodelete anything more than 2 days old which isnt
              world readable.
              \_ I second this idea. /csua/tmp/* encourages people to
                 collect junk irresponsibly. If people must collect junk,
                 increase their quota, so they can be held accountable
                 for whatever quota they use. /csua/tmp/* existed before
                 the huge quota increase (20meg quota). The need for it now
                 is questionable.
           \_ once again, my old motd archives in /csua/tmp got lost. I have
              off-soda backups, I doubt I'll bring them back.  -ERic
2006/4/11-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42736 Activity:nil
4/11    Can some root-type person please restore /csua/bin/motdedit ?
        \_ I don't have root, but you're more welcome to use
           It has anti-nuke capabilities plus it doesn't clobber
           other people up. I don't guarantee that it's bug free
           so use it at your own risk.                          -kchang
           other people up.
           \_ setuid 123 permission denied?
2006/3/26-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42442 Activity:nil
3/26    I'm currently taking an approach to life that includes elimination
        of things which are both unecessary and unpleasant. I'm not quite sure
        whether rants on the MOTD qualify, but I'm leaning towards yes. In
        which case, do they exist only because of immaturity? This is not a
        troll, I'm interested in what people think. -jhs
        \_ Log off.  Go outside.  Repeat.
        \_ Posting them or reading them? :-)   I suspect most of them are
           posted from boredom and most reply out of boredom just to keep
           it going to give everyone something to do during the day.  If
           motd rants are that high on your list then either you're spending
           way too much time here or I envy the tiny unpleasantness in your
           life.  IMO, they're mostly harmless.
           \_ I have lots of awesome right now -jhs
           \_ Agreed, they're mostly harmless.  I don't take the motd too
              seriously, it's basically verbal jousting for me.
              Occasionally it includes useful information.  Once in a while
              there's a good, i.e. well reasoned, thoughtfully argued,
              discussion to be had, but, if the motd is representative, then
              most CS folk have poor rhetoric and debate skills.  It is a
              \- The Calif state high school debate champions for 1985 work
                 for for Cisco and Tivo. For 1986 champions, one did CS
                 undergrad at the 'Fraud (but then as with his partner,
                 went to law school). Half of the best team in 1984 [didnt win
                 state but won the berkeley tourney] is working for Sun.
                 Another of the mid-80s power pair has one half who made a
                 lot of $$$ early at oracle and then went through so-so
                 dot coms and his parner did cs undergrad at UCB and then
                 PHD at UIUC in compliers.
                 dot coms and his parner did cs undergrad at ucb and then
                 phd at uiuc in compliers.
                 \_ I don't have stories this impressive, but 1/2 of my
                    HS debate team (~10 ppl) went to Cal for some eng.
                    major (mostly EE/CS). Many, including myself, have
                    since moved on to law school.
                    Of the last 4 interns I've hired from Cal, all were
                    HS Varsity debate w/ a tourney win.
                    I always thought that HS debate was basically some-
                    thing that many engineers did in HS b/c it was one
                    of those activities like chess club or computer club
                    where you could hang out w/ other intelligent ppl
                    and talk about completely useless stuff that normal,
                    well adjusted kids couldn't care less about (like the
                    benefits of running a counterplan).
              reliable source for amusement in the form of trolling and
              trash-talking.  In my family, this was our after-dinner
              entertainment.  After we had a serious discussion about politics,
              ethics, current events, or whatever over dinner, my brothers and
              I would play a game of trash-talking top this.  Although it's
              crass, there is a real art to it and it takes creativity and
              intelligence to do it well.  If you find it unnecessary and
              unpleasant then the motd probably isn't the best place to spend
              your spare time.  The motd has a tradition of crass trolling and
              namecalling that predates both of us by easily a decade. -dans
        \_ I've rant'ed on the motd from time to time and I think it was
           helpful to have some people to talk to when things were going
           badly at work, &c. Its like calling up your brother and blowing
           off steam b/c QA can't get their fracking act together and you
           have to spend ya weekend at work b/c of their screwups.
           \_ Totally agree. And it's cheaper than therapy too!
        \_ Sorry, I mean the flame wars more than the rants -jhs
           \_ I guess flame wars are unpleasant, but I'm not sure
              they are unnecessary. Sometimes its better for people
              to work out their idiocy in a safe environment, like
              the motd, rather than irl. I've had to work w/ some
              real arses over the years; if they talked out of
              arse on the motd instead of in the hallways, the
              overall work env. would have been better. I'm guessing
              that some of the usual suspects re flaming on soda
              are probably nicer in person b/c they can get that
              stuff out of their system.
              Unless I'm really bored, I just skip the flame threads.
              Usually there is plenty of non-flame stuff on the motd.
           \_ Potato, potato.  They do appear to be correlated.  Perhaps a
              better solution is to write some code.  Imagine a motd viewing
              utility that allows you to mark threads you want to ignore.
              Voila, all the motd love, none of the flame wars.  I've got
              bigger irons in the fire, but I may right this some time.
              \_ I am sure kchang has written this already.
                 \_ urlP
2006/3/26-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42436 Activity:high
3/25    dans, just an observation, please don't get mad at me. For a nice
        quiet Saturday night, you sure are using a lot of exclamations and
        a lot of cuss words. Normally I'd go out to the beach or somewhere
        more interesting and pleasant than the motd. However, I have a project
        that's due next week so I'm reading the motd. What's your excuse
        for using the motd? Just curious.
        \_ Heh.  I'm not mad at anyone on the motd.  I swear frequently in
           informal situations, particularly when namecalling is involved.
           ``English, motherfucker, do you speak it?'' is a quote from Pulp
           Fiction.  I'm putting the finishing touches on some code I spent
           the last month writing, and will put a release announcement on the
           motd when it's ready.  I read and respond to the motd while waiting
           for emacs TRAMP mode to save files since it lags a bit when writing
           to soda, which is actually due to a workaround for a FreeBSD bug.
           As soon as I finish, I plan to either cuddle at home with my
           girlfriend or go out partying with her and other friends. -dans
           Fiction.  If my language is harsh, it's provoked by people writing
           posts that are either disingenuous (i.e. intellectually dishonest)
           or outright stupid and naive.  As for what I'm doing writing on the
                \_ If it's "informal" which I read as "just the motd" then
                   why do you seem so easily provoked?  If you're in a text
                   only world then when you slap unnecessary curses into your
                   rants you only come off looking like a ranting child.  It
                   doesn't get any other point across.
                      \_ "One man's vulgarity is another man's lyric." -jharlan
                           \_ "One man's vulgarity is another man's lyric."
                               Who are you to judge? -jharlan
                   \_ This is your opinion, and you're welcome to it.  Frankly,
                      trying to make a point on the motd is kind of silly.
                      There are a handful of people like John, jrleek and
                      myself who are open-minded enough to actually read the
                      motd and change our opinions based on a well reasoned
                      argument, and even admit we are wrong once in a while.
                      \_ emarkp still thinks the Iraq War is good.
                        \_ Nice and all but "English, motherfucker, do you
                           speak it?" isn't an argument.  If you'd actually
                           made an argument then you'd have something.  You
                           \_ Yes, the argument was that the pp's english
                              reading comprehension was poor since s/he
                              ignored the rather important phrase ``appear to
                              be'' in my statement.  Apparently, foul language
                              interferes with your reading comprehension.
                           ranted like an idiot child.  I don't care beyond
                           \_ Are you suggesting that all rants, that is,
                              violent or extravagant speech acts are childish
                              and idiotic?  If not, what makes my `rant'
                              childish and idiotic?  Please support your
                              statements with facts. -dans
                              \_ You realise I could go through your response
                                     \_ sic
                                 and toss your own "Please support your
                                 statements with facts" line back at you since
                                 you don't but it would be a waste of my time.
                                 I was just trying to help you out but you're
                                 obviously much more brilliant and clever than
                                 me and on par with award winning drama which
                                 I can't compete with.  Thank you for sharing
                                 your wit and brilliance with us.  I look
                                 forward to more random and off topic cursing
                                 and avoidance of issues that were addressed
                                 which you pretend weren't.  All of this is
                                 opinion but I'd bet anything that someone
                                 who goes through life telling people,
                                 \_ You are incorrect sir.  Strangely enough,
                                    you continue to waste your time by
                                    responding to me.  Funny that. -dans
                                 I was just trying to help you out but
                                 you're obviously much more brilliant and
                                 clever than me and on par with award winning
                                 drama which I can't compete with.  Thank you
                                 for sharing your wit and brilliance with us.
                                 I look forward to more random and off topic
                                 cursing and avoidance of issues that were
                                 addressed which you pretend weren't.  All of
                                 this is opinion but I'd bet anything that
                                 someone who goes through life telling people,
                                 "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?"
                                 is not going to do as well as someone who
                                 doesn't, all else being equal.  Perhaps your
                                 \_ I do just fine for myself, thank you very
                                    much. -dans
                                 award winning brilliance puts you outside
                                 the curve.  Will you be providing any free
                                 tickets to your motd followers to attend the
                                 awards ceremony next year?
                                 \_ Is this a sad attempt at humor?  Or just a
                                    weak insult? -dans
                           the bit waste generated but I thought you might
                               \_ Because bandwidth is a precious unrenewable
                                  commodity. -dans
                           care how you come across to someone who doesn't
                           know you but it doesn't hurt me either way what
                           decisions you make for yourself.  I've changed
                           my mind about numerous things based on what I've
                           read on the motd but never from anything from
                           a non-response like, "English, motherfucker, do
                           you speak it?".  I don't even see why you'd bother
                           posting such a thing.  Better to not post at all,
                           IMO.  There are some situations where dropping some
                           curse words adds value; the motd isn't one of them.
                           \_ This is your opinion.  Please provide facts to
                              support this. -dans
                           As an aside, I find it funny to see you switch
                           back and forth between holier-than-thou and
                           idiot-child mode, especially when you get into
                           holier-mode (and attack other random people who
                           aren't even here) to cover your moments of idiocy.
                           The opinions here on many topics cover a wide
                           spectrum and sometimes get heated and we joke about
                           the motd being a wasteland, but the truth is you're
                           talking to the top 1% edge of the general population
                           where "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?"
                           isn't taken well and adds nothing.  Take care.
                                          \_ by you; do you speak for the motd
                                             populace at larges for they have
                                             no voices to speak with? -dans
                                             \_ While PP gives every indication
                                                of being a pretentious blowhard
                                                cock monkey, I think most
                                                people here are getting a bit
                                                tired of half of the motd being
                                                the dans vs. the world show.
                                                At least the ilyas flame wars
                                                were usually about politics
                                                or philosophy, and not just
                                                personal insults and OS crap.
                                                \_ That's Mr. Cock Monkey to
                                                   you, pal!  -pp
                                                \_ OS crap?  Dude, this is the
                                                   Computer Science
                                                   Undergraduate Association!
                                                   I'm sure the Philosophy and
                                                   Political Science
                                                   Undergraduate Assocations
                                                   have motd where you can
                                                   argue those topics to your
                                                   hearts content.  If it
                                                   really trips you out, you
                                                   can delete threads I post
                                                   in, but I think that the
                                                   other half of the motd
                                                   would be upset at the
                                                   nukefest. -dans
                                                   nukefest.  Also, it may be
                                                   that my tendency to sign my
                                                   posts biases the
                                                   observation that leads to
                                                   the dan vs. the world
                                                   conclusion. -dans
                                                   \_ Well, that and the
                           \_ As mentioned above, ``English, motherfucker, do
                              you speak it'' is a quote from Pulp Fiction,
                              which won an Academy Award for best screenplay.
                              It's not exactly an obscure reference.  And it
                              supports my preceding sentence where I ask what
                              the pp on that thread didn't grok about the
                              phrase ``appear to be''.  I posted it because it
                              was a) likely amusing to anyone who got the
                              reference and b) hammered my point home.
                              Question, have you ever read anything by
                              Christopher Hitchens?  What do you think of him?
                              In particular, have you read ``The Missionary
                              Postion,'' his rather nasty character
                              assassination of Mother Teresa?  What did you
                              \_ Why is this a "character assassination"?
                                 will agree with this term if you do not
                                 give it a negative stigma, but if half of
                                 what he claimed about her is true, she did
                                 not deserve to be sainted, and he has a
                                 point.  Several good articles have been
                                 written about the nasty sides of her and
                                 similar organizations.  Now back to your
                                 original flame war.  -John
                              think of it?  I don't mean to suggest my
                              rhetoric is anywhere near the level of
                              Hitchens'.  My only point is that nastiness and
                              harsh language do not make an argument childish,
                              and it's childish to believe that they do. -dans
                      Most other regular posters that bother to sign their
                      posts, e.g. tom, ilyas, jblack, are such stubborn,
                      delusional bastards that they will *never* change there
                      opinions.  Or, rather, in seven plus years of reading
                      and posting to the motd, I've never seen them change an
                      opinion or admit to being wrong.  If you'll dismiss an
                      argument as a senseless rant purely because it has
                          \_ as opposed to ad hominems because somebody
                             uses a term like AssOS
                             \_ I don't believe that suggesting someone is
                                biased for using the term AssOS is an ad
                                hominem.  Please cite an ad hominem I used
                                to refer to psb with.  Otherwise, consider
                                looking up the definition of ad hominem.  I
                                used the term AssholeOS to refer to FreeBSD,
                                and, given the typical behavior of the
                                FreeBSD community members, it's as reasonable
                                a moniker for the OS as AssOS is for Linux.
                                Thus, it is not an ad hominem. -dans
                      profanity in it, then you're a fool.  This is the motd,
                      not Forensics, Speech, and Debate club. -dans
           motd on a Saturday night, I'm putting the finishing touches on
           some code I spent the last month writing, and will put a release
           announcement on the motd when it's ready.  I read and respond to
           the motd while waiting for emacs TRAMP mode to save files since it
           lags a bit when writing to soda, which is actually due to a
           workaround for a FreeBSD bug.  As soon as I finish, I plan to
           either cuddle with my girlfriend or go out partying with her and
           other friends. -dans
           \_ Awsome. So what are you coding?
           \_ Hey, have you figured out a way for TRAMP to warn you that the
              file has changed before updating it?
              \_ TRAMP appears to do this for me.  Does it not do this for
                 you, or is there some sort of bug?  The two things I set in
                 my .emacs to impact TRAMP behavior are:
                 (setq-default auto-save-timeout 600)
                 and I set tramp-chunksize to 150, which I did through emacs
                 graphical customization interface.  I suspect something like:
                 (setq tramp-chunksize 150) would be what you want.
                 \_ TRAMP doesn't seem to warn me if the file has changed,
                    unlike when I'm editing local files. I usually try to
                    do a revert-buffer and then add my change, but that
                    isn't a 100% fool proof sol'n.
                    \_ Strange, I don't have this problem.  Hmm, what host are
                       you working with?  What is your shell?  I have it
                       working on soda and several of my own boxes running
                       Linux.  I switched my shell to bash on soda because I
                       didn't feel like beating my head against a wall trying
                       to make TRAMP work with tcsh.  Hmm... you're trying to
                       edit the motd, aren't you?  I don't use it for that, so
                       the check if file has changed issue doesn't come up as
                       often for me. -dans
                       \_ My remote host is OS X running the dp emacs-devel.
                          My soda shell is bash. Yes, I'm trying to edit the
                          motd and I'm trying to play nice.
                          \_ Sorry, I don't think I'll be of much help.  I'm
                             running a similar environment, but I edit the
                             motd locally in vi.  What if you wrote a script
                             to copy the motd, and, when you saved your copy,
                             it would check if the motd had changed.  If no,
                             overwrite the motd, if yes, give you a diff or
                             something? -dans
                             \_ Solved my problem: M-x diff-buffer-with-file
                                works w/ TRAMP.
2006/3/22-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42379 Activity:nil
3/22    To make a long story short... I have NO idea why one of the tables
        got corrupted (mysql said "This is marked as 'crash', please repair
        this table"). I've run REPAIR TABLE <tables> and now Berkeley MOTD
        is working again. Thanks for the quick notification. FYI I've run
        Berkeley MOTD for a while and this is the first time something like
        this has happened. If you know why and how to fix it please email
        me. Thanks guys                                 -kchang
        \_ Just curious, why do you bother or care?
           \_ someone important asked me to do it.
        \_ i'll repair YOUR table
        \_ Are you using MyISAM (default) or InnoDB tables?  MyISAM tables can
           and do corrupt if you hit mysql hard enough.  In theory, InnoDB
           tables should be immune from this.  Obviously switching to a
           different RDBMS is not a decision to take lightly, but, as a worst
           case scenario, consider switching to postgres, which is definitely
           more robust than mysql. -dans
2006/3/20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42328 Activity:nil
3/20    If you're going to troll the motd today, please make
        that extra effort and at least try to use proper
        grammar.  I know you like to pretend that you are
        an angry immigrant troll who just moved to Berkeley
        but I know you had to take the TOEFL before being
        admitted so I know you're not a moron.  Thank you.
2006/3/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42270 Activity:high
3/16    Can we seed little CSUAs in other universities?  Instead of friendly
        Irish bartenders, they will need their own toms.
        \_ It's normal enough to have sister clubs at different schools.
           The problem with the CSUA is that it's basically an obsolete
           organization type.  No one needs a club to get access to
           computing resources anymore.
           \_ ... but everyone needs a world-writable MOTD.
           \_ BTW, the charter of the CSUA is not about access to computing
              resources (that's what the UCF was and the OCF is for).  The
              CSUA is a social organization for people who care about CS.
                \_ seems like people care more about I.T. than real CS here.
              Indeed, the CSUA existed for many years without its own
              \_ But the glory days of the CSUA were when computing resources
                 were scarce and real oses scarcer.
                 \_ Correlation, but hardly causation.  You could just as well
                    say that the glory days of the CSUA were when CS was an
                    avocation instead of a vocation.  And even that would be
                    wrong, since the CSUA was irrelevant and on the verge of
                    complete disappearance in 1986.
                    \_ No, he's sort of right in that it provided a pretty
                       nifty place to take a break from the labs.  -John
                    \_ Computing resources were still quite scarce in 1986.
                       \_ The CSUA did not get its own computer till 1988,
                          I think.  The scarcity of computing resources in
                          1986 did not mean it was the glory days of the
                       It's only in the last five to ten years that every new
                       UCB student started to bring a new computer, and only
                       the last five that it's been a laptop.  It's not that
                       the CSUA is obsolete, I think that there are some key
                       ideals and core values that will never be obsolete.  I
                       think the organization needs to reinvent itself for a
                       new millenium when hardware is cheap, fast, and
                       abundant while still maintaining those ideals and core
                       values. -dans
                       P.S. The CSUA is the second oldest active ASUC student
                       group on campus.  The only active group that predates
                       us is CHAOS, the Cal Hiking and Outdoors Society.
                       \_ Hmm, I'd say closer to 10-15 for computers, though
                          I'd agree with the last 5 for laptops (probably even
                          less)...though I suspect I've dated myself with this
                          post....                        -mice
                          \_ Doesn't ANY post to the motd kinda date the
                             \_ heh, very funny.
                             \_ It's not like anyone else would.  -John
                                \_ Heh, I was wondering if someone would hook
                                   into that.  Punk.   :P       -mice
                                   \_ "Straight line"... :-)  -John
                       \_ Elaine has her own ASUC student group?  Wow!
                             \_ ?
                          \- there is more to that then you think. --psb
              \_ Please cite the relevant portions of the CSUA charter that
                 state it is a social organization. -dans
                 \_ What is this charter everyone keeps talking about?
                    BTW, from the constitution:
                      to provide a forum for the personal interaction of
                      persons involved in the computer science
                    \_ The CSUA constitution was written years after the
                       organization formed, and written because the ASUC
                       insisted that we have one.  That's why our governing
                       body is called the politburo, it was a way of thumbing
                       our noses at the ASUC.  Presumably, we had a charter
                       before then.  To quote the complete text from the
                       The purposes of this organization are: to represent the
                       undergraduate computer science student body in dealings
                       with the University of California at Berkeley, its
                       representatives, and any other appropriate organization;
                       to provide a forum for the personal interaction of
                       persons involved in the computer sciences; to promote
                       knowledge of and interest in the computer sciences; and
                       to raise funds to accomplish these goals.
                       So, yes, we're a social organization, but this is by no
                       means our only purpose.  Providing access to computing
                       resources falls under promoting knowledge of and
                       interest in CS, as well as providing a forum for social
                       interaction. -dans
                       \_ You quote a very selective history.  For at least
                          a decade, the mantra at meetings was "The CSUA is
                          _PRIMARILY_ a social organization.  We have some
                          interesting resources for you to play around with,
                          but we're not here to hold your hand computer-wise"
                          \_ Please show me documentation of this.  It
                             conflicts with my recollection, which was that we
                             have interesting resources to play with, but
                             we're not here to hold your hand computer-wise
                             because we're curmudgeonly bastards who think you
                             should figure shit out for yourself.  Socializing
                             had nothing to do with it.  I should also note
                             that the ``we're not here to hold your hand''
                             attitude is decidedly anti-social. -dans
                             \_ It's really not even worth discussing this
                                with you.  You've declared yourself arbiter
                                of the realm.  I'm with the majority here.
                                You've proven yourself obnoxious.
                                \_ Majority?  I must have missed the vote.
                                   I'm sorry if you find my requests for
                                   actual documentation obnoxious, but I'm
                                   genuinely interested in the historical
                                   record of the CSUA and like collection more
                                   data points. -dans
                                   \_ grep -ir social /csua/www/htdocs/Minutes
        \_ How about seeding little sodans in other universities instead?
           \_ I volunteer to seed undergraduates!
        \_ UCLA and UCD both had CSUA's when I was an ug. I wonder if they
           are still around? UCLA had a linux club a few years back that
           strongly reminded me of the CSUA, but they had no world writable
        \_ My sister is attending Santa Cruz, and was thinking of starting
           a CSUA like organization.  They have a club for black
           engineers, hispaic engineers, women engineers, and IEEE.  I
           told her she should probably just join the IEEE if she wanted a
           club that didn't come with a designation.
           club that didn't come with a designation. -jrleek
           \_ Who are you?  Who is your sister?  My girlfriend is attending
              Santa Cruz. -dans
              \_ It's me, jrleek.  My sister is in CS, this is her first
                 year. -jrleek
                 \_ Neat.  Ask her if she wants to meet my gf, Belen.  She's
                    in her second year, probably majoring in Music, but
                    flirting with a CS minor. -dans
                    \_ Are you trying to set up POLYAMORY?
                       \_ Are you a MORON? -dans
                    \_ This name and location has been noted. --unstable motd
                       \_ What location?  I stated the institution she attends
                          not her location. -tricky dans
                          \_ School + Music + unusual name... not too hard eh?
                             Granted, I'm a very lazy stalker. But there may
                             be less lazy ones. --ums
                             \_ *probably* majoring in Music.  You'd have a
                                much easier time stalking her through myspace.
2006/3/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42209 Activity:nil 57%like:42200
3/11    Americans full of contradictions, and as stupid as ever:
        [URL changed, now deleted, see kais motd]
        \_ Stupid?  Why?  Because a bunch of them don't share your black/white
           views on a very complex and highly charged topic?  If only the
           world was really as simple as you see it....
           \_ The OP is not alone.
              \_ Did you actually read the slate article and compare to what
                 the OP is saying?  They're in different universes from each
                 other.  OP lives in his nice little black'n'white with-me-
                 or-against-me world, the slate article is all about people
                 with a variety of subtle and dare I say nuanced opinions.
                 BTW, thanks for the slate url.
                 \_ One person in the room raised her hand to say there are
                    too many abortions in the US.  No one else did.  Now,
                    do you think the OP is in the camp of that one hand-raiser
                    or of everyone else in the room?
                    \_ Apples.  Oranges.  What's your point?
2006/3/10-13 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42171 Activity:nil
        Dear current csua students-- the bickering between tom and dans
        is NOT representative of current alumni and your future, and
        is certainly NOT typical behaviour from typcial alumni. Most
        of us have a bit more humour and are much more optimistic,
        forgiving, and helpful. Most of us understand that what happened in
        the past, is history and no one really give a damn. What's important
        is _now_, the present time, because we can do something to make
        csua a better organization. You [current students] have our support.
        You certainly have my moral support, but don't count on getting
        any money from me because I'm a cheapskate alum who can't even
        afford a typical house, a 60 year old run down house for $800K in
        San Jose or Santa Clara even with my near 6-digit salary so I'm
        forced to buy a fucking $600K house out of nowhere north of
        Gilroy and suffer traffic every single fucking day. FUCK!! !!!
        Oops, I'm only joking. I'm not bitter. Really. Go Cal. BEAT STANFORD!
        \_ Thanks a lot for your show of support.  Don't worry I realize that
           most often the silent minority who agree with policy/direction
           can be drowned out by a vocal minority.  With recently getting new
           soda we are actually ok in regards to the constant need for more
           money.  It sounds like maybe we should go panhandle for change
           to help you out though.  :P
           I hope you manage to make it to the alumni bbq and can meet some of
           the current students.  -mrauser, president
           Just so you know, its highly unlikely that more than 1-2 current
           students ever read the motd (myself included) and thus probably
           have no idea that tom and dans are bickering.
           \_ Bingo!
        \_ 2ded. I personally think that the CSUA is a great student
           organization and am proud to be an alum member. I have hired
           several CSUA members as interns and full time employees and
           will continue to support the CSUA morally and financially.
           On a side note, I have been greatly impressed by the dedication
           of the recent politburo members (props to jvarga and mrauser)
           and hope that the CSUA continues to recruit dedicated ugs.
           GO BEAH!
           \_ 3ded.
2006/3/9-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42170 Activity:low
3/7     Look tom and dans. Both of you have points and supporting facts. But
        most of us aren't concerned at who's right/wrong. So how about shaking
        hands with your enemy for now, and even if the other side is still
        unforgiven, at least fake a truce. That way you can attack when the
        time is right and we'll have our peace on motd. Thanks
        \_ hey I wanted to see where it goes. don't delete it til tomorrow.
           Why do you need peace on motd? How boring.
           \_ There's a famous novel I read in HS to which I forgot the title
              but basically it described a guy truck driver driving on the
              highway, saw a turtle on the road, and swerved in order to
              crush it. Then a gal driver saw the turtle, swerved in order
              to avoid it. So, I guess you're the driver and you're trying
              to cause harm in order to get pleasure from it, or something
              \- turtle novels: blade runner is the standard but you probably
                 mean grapes of wrath. you know it just occurred to me, it is
                 not unlikely i read GoW before you were born. did you read
                 a certain novel involving a tree and a prep school and
                 conflict and hate, too?
2006/3/8-10 [Computer/SW/P2P, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42150 Activity:kinda low
3/8     Dude, chill out dans. Go out to the beach or something, it's really
        nice out there.
        \_ Dude, I just spent the last week on the beach in Santa Cruz.  The
        \_ Dude, I just spent the last weak on the beach in Santa Cruz.  The
           motd is what I do when I'm waiting for code to compile, tests to
           run etc. -dans
           \_ I suspect you didn't actually spend a week on the beach. Or
              were you camping on it?
              \_ Okay, let me rephrase, I spent a week in a house that looks
                 out on the beach.  As in literally walk 10 feet across the
                 street and you're on the beach. -dans
           \_ Well, ok then. Good for you. What did you do in SC, coding?
              You seem pretty angry on motd for some reason. Anyways, how
              does one go about living near the beach for a week? Craigslist?
              \_ Spent quality time with my girlfriend, hacked on a project
                                            \_ wait what??? I thought you're gay
                 I'm really into, caroused with friends, and cooked and ate
                 lots of tasty, fresh food.  In my case, I'm fortunate to be
                 part of a circle of friends that values sharing our resources
                    \_ Wow.  That's a leap. -dans
                 with each other.  A number of us are successful geeks who are
                 always happy to take in guests.  No, I'm not angry.  To me,
                 the motd is like fight club without the stitches.  It's a
                 nice place to spar with written arguments.  Sometimes its
                 informative, and I learn about my fellow CSUAers or change my
                 point of view.  Sometimes it's like beating the crap out of
                 Jared Leto, i.e. picking apart weak arguments until the other
                 person gives up and nukes the thread. -dans
                 \_ You just violated the first two rules of fight club.
2006/3/8-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42148 Activity:kinda low
3/8     Boy, neutering KAIS motd really upped the level of discourse around
        \_ Scuse me? Why is it neutered? It's still working.
           \_ Hello, I'm the op. I'm still waiting for an answer. It seems
              to work. Why did you think it was neutered? By the way it is
              now called "Berkeley MOTD." Even Google recognizes Berkeley MOTD.
2006/3/8-9 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW/Editors/Vi] UID:42140 Activity:moderate
3/8     Poll, stupid political drivels make the motd:
        more interesting: .....
        stupid: ..
        \_ This poll question has an inherent bias!
        \_ What would the motd be w/o drivel?
           \_ more linux vs. freebsd drivels? vi vs. emacs drivels?
              I'll take technical drivels over pointless political ones any day
2006/3/7-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42132 Activity:high
3/7     Isn't it squishable to use something like fold to modify motd?
        \_ maybe. who is doing it?
        \_ Yes, but no one cares anymore.
        \_ No.  It's theoretically squishable to have something automatically
           modifying the MOTD every three minutes via fold or some other
           method, but ever since paolo did it, it seems anything goes.  -tom
           \- What if you are an obsessive compulsary guy like me who checks
              the motd every 5 minutes _manually_ and do repeated things to
              motd _manually_? How do you distinguish between changes done
              via a script that keeps calling fold or just someone like me?
              Is it squishable because of one's ultimate intent to motd
              regardless of actual changes, or is it squishable only when
              the actual changes are made repeatedly, regardless of method?
              \_ The only cases I know of where someone was squished for
                 modifying the MOTD were when it was being done automatically.
                 Being an idiot is not the same as being a hoser.  -tom
                 Being an idiot is not the same as being a hoser. For example
                 I am an idiot and marco was a hoser.  -tom
           \_ The horse is dead tom.  Please stop beating it. -dans
              PS, I'm a little dubious of your standing to bitch about CSUA
              policy since you've done so since before I got to Berkeley in
              '97, and continued to do so until I finished in '04, and, to my
              knowledge, you never once showed up at a politburo meeting.  I'm
              under the impression that you work on the Berkeley campus so
              it's not like you have distance as an excuse.
              \_ I've been to general meetings during that time frame.
                 I think the current undergraduates really should be in
                 charge of setting policy and direction for the CSUA, but
                 I also think that it's inappropriate and inexcusable for a
                 CSUA officer to intentionally and deceptively screw up a
                 public CSUA resource.  -tom
                 \_ Fair enough.  Even so, I can say your knowledge of the
                    so-called paolo motd squishing incident is incomplete.
                    There are facts you don't have that were discussed by the
                    then current undergraduate members of the politburo in
                    closed session, and a policy decision was made based on
                    those facts.  Thus, in this case, your hard line stance on
                    the issue is in conflict with your statement that
                    undergrads should set policy and direction.  Seriously
                    though, it's been for years.  Don't you think it's time to
                    move on? -dans
                    \_ Don't you think the politburo should have responded
                       to the person who brought the complaint?  I never
                       heard a single word.  And I can't imagine what facts
                       there could be which would mitigate the situation
                       enough that the CSUA President would not have to at
                       least admit wrongdoing and apologize--unless you
                       believed paolo's total BS about how his process really
                       was pine and it was checking mail every three minutes.
                       Closed politburo session for disciplining a politburo
                       member is also total BS.  -tom
                       \_ It would mitigate the situation if the President's
                          apparently anti-social act that stomped on your
                          playground actually benefited the greater good of
                          the CSUA.  If the University was pressuring the CS
                          department to shut off the CSUA's net taps
                          *permanently* in response to complaints that the
                          motd was in gross violations of campus hate
                          speech/fighting words statutes, then nuking the
                          motd would benefit this greater good.  I phrase
                          this as a hypothetical because I can't disclose
                          specifics on the record without betraying the
                          confidence of the politburo members at that time.
                          Refer to question #18 in for
                          more info re: campus hate speech regs (sorry, it's a
                          PDF).  And, also hypothetically, perhaps the
                          politburo didn't respond to the person who raised
                          the complaint because they felt that the individual's
                          language and attitude was abusive and demanding, and
                          they felt disinclined to interact with such an
                          individual?  If said individual raised his/her
                          complaint in person at a politburo meeting with the
                          same language and attitude, I suspect the politburo
                          would have told him to `Fuck off' in so many words.
                          As is, they let sleeping dogs lie.  You can state
                          that ``Closed politburo session for disciplining a
                          politburo member is also total BS,'' but that's your
                          opinion.  The undergraduates on the politburo made a
                          policy decision regarding how they wanted to handle
                          the matter.  If you truly believe that current
                          undergraduates should set policy and direction, you
                          don't get to pick and choose which policy decisions
                          they do and don't make. -dans
                          \_ chmod 644 /etc/motd.public is how I would solve
                             that problem.  No need to run a script to wipe
                             motd. -mrauser
                          \_ oh that's a load of crap and you know it.  paolo
                             was deleting the MOTD because people were taking
                             out his postings of kinneydrivel.  If he were
                             doing it for the greater good of the CSUA, why
                             did he name his process "pine" and lie about
                             what it did?  We're not talking about the
                             MOTD nazi'ing after 9/11, we're talking about
                            while (1) sleep 180 ; cp /dev/null /etc/motd.public
                             And I do think the undergraduates should be
                             allowed to set policy; do you think that if I
                             put the above in a script, called it "pine",
                             and ran it myself, that that would be OK and
                             within CSUA policy?  What a crock.  -tom
                             \_ I agree that Paolo's implementation left much
                                to be desired, but that's neither here nor
                                there.  And yes, if nuking the motd kept us
                                from getting our net tap shut off, while it
                                wouldn't be OK, I'd sincerely hope that it
                                would be forgiven.  At this point the dispute
                                is who's facts are correct.  Yours run counter
                                to my recollection, but I doubt I'm going to
                                convince you my memory is better than yours
                                or vice versa.  But that still begs the
                                question, why are you beating a horse that's
                                been dead for four years? -dans
                                \_ The facts that paolo *claimed at
                                   the time* were that he was "running
                                   tests using screen to have it run
                                   pine in the background and
                                   auto-reattach itself to my
                                   soda-shell whenever i got new mail" (his
                                   words).  Apparently, when it became obvious
                                   that this was 100% bullshit, he told the
                                   politburo that he was on a SOOPER SEKRIT
                                   MISSION to SAVE THE CSUA from the EVIL
                                   LORD MULLALLY.  And apparently he
                                   succeeded in his mission, despite only
                                   deleting the MOTD for about three
                                   hours on one occasion and never running his
                                   script again (at least not automatically).
                                   What an effective leader he was!  I
                                   bring it up because I am still dumbfounded,
                                   not only that he did it in the first place,
                                   but that his credulous cronies let him
                                   get away with it.  Maybe you believed his
                                   bullshit--that would just make you a
                                   stooge and a tool.  Paolo, on the other
                                   hand, was a scumbag.   -tom
                                   \_ Excuse me?  Have you ever sat down
                                      and had a beer with me?  Or Paolo?
                                      Paolo is a good guy and a good friend
                                      who's there when he's needed.  I can
                                      attest to this as will many others.
                                      Back when he was on politburo, he worked
                                      his ass for the CSUA.  So did I.  You,
                                      on the other hand are a faceless bitter
                                      dour naysayer alumni who sees fit
                                      to bitch and moan about `those kids
                                      these days,' but, in my seven years
                                      kicking around Berkeley, I never once
                                      saw you lift a finger for this
                                      organization.  You seem to believe that
                                   \_ Excuse me?  Have you ever sat down and
                                      had a beer with Paolo?  Or me?  I know
                                      he busted his ass for the CSUA when he
                                      was on politburo.  So did I.  You on the
                                      other hand seem to be a bitter dour
                                      naysayer alumnus who loves to bitch
                                      about ``those damned kids these days,''
                                      but, in the seven years I was active in
                                      the CSUA, I never once saw you lift a
                                      finger for this organization.  Basically,
                                      you're a parasite.  You seem to think
                                      the motd is your personal playground,
                                      You think Paolo pissed on it once four
                                      years ago, and, like a child or a
                                      fanatic, you latch onto this tiny
                                      perceived slight, blow it way out of
                                      proportion, and refuse to move on or let
                                      go.  Somehow, in the haze of your ongoing
                                      childish tantrum, you concluded that
                                      people you barely or never interacted
                                      with are, in your words, scumbags,
                                      stooges, and tools.  My first impulse is
                                      to revert to your level and call you a
                                      wanker, but, on further reflection, I'm
                                      simply speechless. -dans
                                      and you believe Paolo pissed on it.
                                      Like a child or a fanatic, your response
                                      to this tiny perceived slight is to blow
                                      it completely out of proportion: You
                                      hold a grudge over the matter that's
                                      lasted four years (and counting).  On
                                      the basis of incomplete information
                                      about a single event, you just labeled
                                      a bunch of people you've barely or never
                                      interacted with as stooges, tools, and
                                      scumbags.  I'm tempted to drop to your
                                      level and call you a wanker, but,
                                      frankly, I'm just speechless. -dans
                                      \_ Way to change the subject!  First of
                                         all, I am quite confident that I
                                         have both done more work for the CSUA
                                         and donated more money to the CSUA
                                         than either of you.  Second, how
                                         much work any of us have done for
                                         the CSUA is completely irrelevant
                                         to whether paolo's actions were
                                         inappropriate.  And it's not just
                                         that he munged the MOTD; it's that
                                         he threatened me with lawsuits and
                                         police action when I reported it.
                                         That's appropriate behavior for
                                         an officer of an organization?  -tom
                                         \_ I'm not changing the subject.  You
                                            called me a tool and a stooge.  I
                                            can live with that.  But you also
                                            slapped that label (and scumbag)
                                            on several of my friends,
                                            something I am considerably less
                                            inclined to tolerate.  This is the
                                            first time you've brought up
                                            threats of lawsuits and police
                                            action.  I know in your world you
                                            want us all to bow down and lick
                                            your asshole when you champion
                                            your righteous views, but a) you
                                            refuse to allow for the fact that
                                            you may be wrong and b) we live in
                                            a civil society where the police
                                            and the courts exist to adjudicate
                                            disputes between parties.  You
                                            have a right to raise complaints.
                                            But if you harrass people to make
                                            your complaints heard, or your
                                            complaints are slanderous or
                                            libelous, then the wronged parties
                                            have a right to seek legal
                                            recourse.  If Paolo legitimately
                                            felt you wronged him, then it is
                                            reasonable and appropriate for him
                                            to seek remedy from the police or
                                            the courts. -dans
                                            \_ except he was 100% full of
                                               shit, which is why he
                                               apparently came up with a
                                               totally new story in the
                                               SOOPER SEKRIT POLITBURO
                                               MEETING where, surprise,
                                               his friends decided not to
                                               do anything to him.  -tom
                                               \_ I am ready to fight you Tom.
                                                  Are you a coward? -dans
                                                  \_ GUN DUEL!!
                                                  \_ I did not write this.
                                                     \_ So you are scared to
                                                        fight tom too? It is
                                                        too bad for the
                                                        CSUA you both lack
                                                        physical courage.
                                               \_ Look tom, if it was such an
                                                  important issue, and you
                                                  believe so strongly in your
                                                  conviction that Paolo is a
                                                  liar and a `scumbag,' you
                                                  could have escalated your
                                                  complaint to the ASUC, the
                                                  CS department, or the
                                                  University level.  You chose
                                                  not to do that.  Instead,
                                                  you vent on the motd with
                                                  cheap shots and low blows at
                                                  the parties involved four
                                                  years after the fact.  This
                                                  is just sour grapes over the
                                                  fact that the politburo
                                                  decided that you were wrong,
                                                  and your complaint lacked
                                                  merit.  Apparently you don't
                                                  like to be reminded that
                                                  you're not omnipotent, and
                                                  sometimes this leads to
                                                  incorrect conclusions. -dans
                                                  \_ I didn't vent on the MOTD.
                                                     I reported it to the
                                                     politburo, courteously
                                                     and with details.  The
                                                     \_ And then proceeded to
                                                        vent about it on the
                                                        motd for the next four
                                                        years (and counting!)
                                                        when the politburo
                                                        decided, based on
                                                        findings of fact that
                                                        your complaint was
                                                        without merit. -dans
                                                     politburo ignored me
                                                     except for paolo's
                                                     reply where he lied about
                                                     what he was doing,
                                                     claimed he was placing
                                                     a restraining order
                                                     against me, and blamed
                                                     me for making soda
                                                     "not a place for
                                                     (Ignoring, of course,
                                                     the fact that he was the
                                                     one trashing the
                                                     resource).  The act
                                                     itself was not that
                                                     big a deal, and it
                                                     would have been a
                                                     disservice to the CSUA
                                                     to try to bring it to
                                                     a higher authority.
                                                     However, paolo is still
                                                     a scumbag and you're
                                                     still a tool.  -tom
                                                     \_ I am thankful I don't
                                                        see the world through
                                                        your eyes. -dans
                                           \_ The bottom line here is paolo was
                                              your friend and anything he did
                                              was fine.
                                              \_ No.  I choose my friends
                                                 because they behave like
                                                 honorable human beings I can
                                                 respect.  I can't be friends
                                                 with someone I don't respect.
                                                 If he did something genuinely
                                                 reprehensible, he wouldn't be
                                                 my friend anymore. -dans
                                                 \_ It wasn't "reprehensible";
                                                    I mean, he didn't murder
                                                    anyone or steal etc. What
                                                    he did do was break a CSUA
                                                    policy that others have
                                                    been disciplined for, and
                                                    lied about it. I mean, you
                                                    \_ To my knowledge, he did
                                                       not lie about it.  Tom
                                                       accuses him of lying
                                                       about it, but, as this
                                                       thread shows, Tom lives
                                                       in a reality distortion
                                                       field so I am
                                                       disinclined to believe
                                                       Tom's accusation.  Honor
                                                       and honesty are very
                                                       important to me, and
                                                       while I don't view them
                                                       purely in black and
                                                       white, I would end a
                                                       friendship over them
                                                       \_ So, do you believe
                                                          the following?
  1.  I have been and was running tests using screen to have it run pine
in the background and auto-reattach itself to my soda-shell whenever i got
new mail (think of it as biff++).  I have been running these test for
several days now.

I have been checking my screen sessions on soda and the programs I've
been running are not only nice'd, but go to sleep awaiting a timer
call.  I'm using soda because some of my mail goes to soda.


  For this i am contacting the OSC and the Berkeley PD about restraining
orders placed against Mr. Holub.
                                                          The first two
                                                          paragraphs don't
                                                          jibe at all with
                                                          what you claim
                                                          happened at the
                                                          SOOPER SEKRIT
                                                          politburo meeting.
                                                          And I seriously
                                                          doubt he ever
                                                          contact OSC or
                                                          contacted OSC or
                                                          the Berkeley PD.
        \_ Did Paolo cc anyone, e.g. the politburo on that mail?  That is, if
           Paolo sent the out of context email excerpt you posted, and the
           statements therein are untrue, did he lie to you, or did he lie to
           both you *and* the politburo?  I'm willing to believe he sent the
           email you are excerpting, I don't think your reality distortion
           field is so warped that you would fabricate old emails.  Did it
           ever occur to you that his purpose was to get you off his back?
           If he lied to you, then it was bad form and a poor way to
           accomplish that end.  But, apparently, it succeeded.  You might
           feel you deserve an apology.  That said, however, you make a
           pattern of being rude, belligerent, and nasty in your electronic
           communications, as evinced by your behavior on the motd.  Oddly
           enough, this is something you and I share.  The difference is that
           when someone responds to my nastiness by ignoring me or telling me
           to fuck off in so many words, I accept the consequences.  You, on
           the other hand, demand an apology, and declare a lifelong (four
           years, and counting!) vendetta against the party in question. -dans
           \_ That was his response to my mail to root.  He cc:ed root,
              twohey, ajani, galen, and chialea.  He made similar claims on
              \_ Let's apply Occam's razor here.  Which of the following is
                  more plausible:
                  a) Paolo is privately a degenerate scumbag, but his public
                     face is that of a brilliant social engineer who counts the
                     following people in his thrall of tools and stooges:
                     - twohey, ajani, galen, and chialea
                     - all root staff members
                     - all politburo members
                     - everyone reading wall during the time period in question
                  b) You really weren't privy to all the details, and thus
                     your self-righteous black and white assessment is wrong.
<<<<<<< /home/sgi/dcs/tms
                  \_ This is great.  If paolo sent it just to me, he was
                     just trying to get me to go away, but if he sent it
                     to lots of people, he must have been telling the
                     truth.  How's this for a possibility: the politburo
                     was a bunch of paolo's friends, who didn't want to
                     do the right thing (turn off his account and remove him
                     as President), so they decided in "closed session"
                     (so no one else ever knew what happened) to let it slide.
                     Sounds pretty ontologically parsimonious to me.  -tom
                     \_ tom, do you need a hug?  Maybe a nice puppy or a kitty
                        cat for your apartment? -dans
                  \_ How can you count 'everyone reading wall...'?
                     \_ As tom has made abundantly clear, if you're not
                        with tom, your against tom.  Since those reading wall
                        did not rush to tom's defense and aide, they must be
                        part of Paolo's vast scumbag conspiracy of tools and
                        stooges. -dans
                     Also, another possibility is that those 'tools and stooges'
                     in actuality chose to just let it slide, for whatever
                     reason, since that's the easiest thing to do, and they
                     probably had no idea what really happened and don't
                     care much either way about the incident.
                  \_ You are a black bugger.  -tom
>>>>>>> /etc/motd.public
                     \_ Sounds plausible to me.  It also explains why, unlike
                        tom, they're not still bitching about it after the
                        fact. -dans
              wall.  The issue has *nothing to do* with my online personality;
                                                           \_ Do you have an
                                                              different online
                                                              because you are
                                                              worried about
                                                              getting beaten up
                                                              in real life?
                                                              \_ He does run
                                                                 away when
                                                                 someone makes
                                                                 threats on the
                                                                 \_ you know,
                                                                    psb, a
                                                                    twerp like
                                                                    you really
                                                                    stay away
              it has to to with paolo trying to come up with a plausible story
              to dupe the credulous.  He failed the first time, so apparently
              he came up with a totally different story, completely
              inconsistent with his first one, to tell at the politburo
              meeting.  (By the way, the MOTD that day was
              nothing remotely resembling hate speech).  -tom
                                                    know, whatever, but there
                                                    it is. Your politburo chose
                                                    to ignore that. That thing
                                                    had nothing to do with hate
                                                    speech (that was the 9/11
                                                    motd shutdown). I don't
                                                    think that this incident
                                                    would be enough to break a
                                                    friendship over. But it
                                                    is quite plain that there
                                                    was dishonesty there; can't
                                                    you at least admit that it
                                                    was a wrong thing to do
                                                    especially for an officer?
                                                    Anyway I don't really care
                                                    and nobody else really does
                                                    either but it remains an
                                                    item of precedent that tom
                                                    was perfectly justified in
                                                    pointing out at the top of
                                                    this thread. All the rest
                                                    of this thread is your
                                                    indignant lashing back.
                                                    Anyway I don't have
                                                    anything against y'all I
                                                    just think it's funny.
                    \_ "hard line stance"?  Seriously.. You (by which I mean
                       the last 5 years or so of politburo) only use terms like
                       this because of an inflated sense of importance. I think
                       it's time politburo stops whining about outdated
                       \_ Um, dude, I'm making an argument.  I use language
                          appropriate for the discussion.  Sense of importance
                          has nothing to do with it.  I think it's time that
                          bitter dour naysayer alumni stop whining about four
                          year old slights. -dans
                    \_ For posterity, what were those facts? -!tom
                       \_ The hypothetical I describe is pretty damn close.  I
                          can't disclose specifics without violating others'
                          trust.  Yes, it's lame, but it's also how it fell
                          out. -dans
                          \_ trust him, he's only wiretapping bad guys.  -tom
                             \_ I agree it's fucked.  But I also gave my word.
                                Look tom, I've been way more active in this
                                organization in the last seven years than you
                                have.  Is there a reason your word should
                                carry more weight than mine? -dans
                          \_ That makes absolutely no sense. Do you actually
                             believe that?
                             \_ If someone asks for my opinion on a matter in
                                confidence, I give it, in confidence.  I don't
                                put a statue of limitations on that.  I value
                                my word. -dans
                                \_ I was referring to the hate speech theory of
                                   why noble paolo was auto-wiping the motd.
                                   \_ Berkeley has pretty strong fighting
                                      words/hate speech policies, and they
                                      were *really* on the warpath in the
                                      weeks following 9/11. -dans
                                      \_ yes, nice theory, only problem
                                         is, this was two months before
                                         9/11.  Oh, and when confronted
                                         with the evidence, paolo didn't
                                         say anything about hate speech,
                                         and there wasn't any hate speech
                                         in the MOTD that day.  Unless
                                         you count kinneydrivel.  -tom
              \_ Tom was scared after some geeks threated to physically
                 assault him.
                 \_ That's moderately amusing, but my point is a serious one.
              \_ Us old farts do this for a while, then we transcend Politburo
                 meetings for a higher plane of consciousness.  You too will
                 realize this when you graduate to old fartness, young
                 padawan.  -John
                 \_ John, you live in Europe.  I can understand if you don't
                    make it to a single politburo meeting in seven years.  Me,
                    I don't want to transcend to a plane where I bitch about
                    things, but make no genuine effort to alter objective
                    reality. -dans
                    \_ Earth to dans.  Earth to dans.  You already do that.
                       \_ As if you have any standing to judge.  Please keep
                          believing that.  Social, political, and economic
                          systems share at least one thing with computers:
                          they're easier to hack without someone looking over
                          your shoulder. -dans
                    \_ We're alumni.  We don't have to go to meetings anymore.
                       We've earned the right to bitch from the sidelines no
                       matter where you are.  Hey, it's the undergrads'
                       organization, we have no business showing up :-)  -John
2006/3/4-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42099 Activity:moderate
3/4     Woohoo!
        soda [3] wc /etc/motd
        838    7249   46554 /etc/motd
        \_ I think it's time for everyone to like, go outside now.
           \_ what? and be left for dead after getting hit by a car and
              id'd using my iPod information?
2006/3/3-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42086 Activity:high
3/3     Has the CSUA considered asking alumni to ccme back and give talks about
        the cool stuff they are doing? I'm thinking of bz (Cyan), maybe aubie
        (Pixar)... I'm sure there are plenty of others I'm forgetting (no
        offense intended). Twohey, lea, myself and others could talk about
        grad school. Brg could too, but I don't know if you would want that.
        I bet mconst could put on some kind of freaky variety show (he'll
        solve an open math problem, patch a critical kernel bug, then kick
        your ass at any video game in  existence). There are distance issues
        involved for some folks, but if they were asked (well, if I was asked)
        I bet people would make an effort. I think this could be a huge draw,
        and take advantage of one of the CSUA's core strengths. I'll leave
        you with the opening to a talk I was writing for UCB undergrads about
        going to grad school:

        "This talk is either going to suck donkey balls, or rock you like an
        exam written by Hilfinger _and_ Garcia. And I just came from the
        Super-DC,  where they are FRESH OUT OF DONKEY BALLS. As Yoda says,
        there is no try, only do."
        \_ I brought in a guy from work to talk about election security.
           It was a facinating talk, but, of course, almost no one showed
           up. -jrleek
           \_ There hasn't ever been anything resembling serious election
              security in this country.  Probably not in most others either.
              \_ Umm, no duh?  So we can't have a talk on it? -jrleek
                 \_ Of course, but it's such an obscure topic for most
                       \- vertex algebras is an obscure topic.
                          election security is hardly obscure.
                    people, especially the politically unaware freshmen
                    that I'm not surprised it wasn't well attended.  Do you
                    think most people are aware elections have been rigged
                    since forever?  Most people don't even vote so why would
                    they care if an election is manipulated or not?
                    \_ Well, this was primarily about electronic voting.
                    \_ Erm, isn't that sort of part of the purpose of a
                       university, to expose you to obscure topics?  -John
                       \_ No.  You're supposed to get a 'higher education'
                          which isn't necessarily the same thing.  Anyway,
                          even if it was the point, attending a side lecture
                          or talk like this, no matter how interesting or
                          educational, is still voluntary.  How many times
                          were you in class when a prof went off on some side
                          topic and someone asked, "will this be on the exam?"
                          Thus, few people attended something that may have
                          been quite interesting and educational.  It wasn't
                          on the midterm.
                          \_ Of course it's voluntary.  But let's face it,
                             you could, theoretically, learn all the crap you
                             get from a university from books.  I don't know
                             about you, but the most valuable thing I got
                             out of Cal was the sum total of exposure to ideas
                             and people that I would not otherwise have had
                             access to.  I think "will this be on the exam" is
                             one of the saddest questions imaginable.  -John
                             \_ Of course it is.  However Cal probably isn't
                                the best choice for people looking for a
                                classical liberal arts education.  After the
                                various admissions and self filtering that
                                goes on to create a freshman class, plus
                                the environment once you get here there isn't
                                a lot of room for that sort of thing.  Thus,
                                you get a high percentage of people who won't
                                attend what was probably an interesting, yet
                                entirely voluntary/no credit talk.
                                \_ Why not?  I don't know about nowadays, but
                                   course catalog when I attended (92-96, to
                                   be honest) was jam packed with interesting,
                                   esoteric stuff.  I had a lot of amazing
                                   profs _and_ good TAs, as well as contact
                                   with some really funky, smart people who
                                   enjoyed attending "interesting", voluntary
                                   talks.  Same university?  -John
                          \_ You're either smart and cynical or just plain
                             dumb.  It makes me glad I devoted time and effort
                             to fucking with your kind when they were my peers
                             in classes or students in classes I TAed. -dans
                             \_ Ok since you can't even figure out what "kind"
                                I am....  I'm just glad I was here today to
                                give you the opportunity to post how smart
                                you are and how you abused other people in
                                class.  Whatever.  I don't know what button
                                of yours I hit with my harmless reply to John,
                                but your response is... interesting.
                                \_ This isn't about smart or dumb.  It's about
                                   your assertion that the purpose of attending
                                   university is to get a `higher education'
                                   (whatever that means), a view that I hold
                                   to be either cynical and shortsighted or
                                   outright stupid.  Individuals who approach
                                   university classrooms with your attitude
                                   water down the university experience for
                                   everyone.  Every time some selfish or
                                   stupid twit asks ``Will this be on the
                                   midterm,'' it takes away from class time
                                   that could be spent *gasp* learning.  Thus,
                                   I view it as a duty to encourage others to
                                   move away from a fundamentally parasitic and
                                   harmful attitude toward the university
                                   experience, if necessary, by beating it out
                                   of them.  Cheers. -dans
                                   \_ Unfortunately you didn't do as well in
                                      reading comp as you did in nastiness
                                      and self righteousness.  Go re-read and
                                      try again.
                                      \_ Unfortunately your composition skills,
                                         appear grossly inferior to your
                                         apparent selfishness and
                                         defensiveness.  In particular, your
                                         capacity to clearly express your
                                         views deserves as C+ at best.  Back to
                                         English 1A with you.  It saddens me
                                         that you think it is nasty when people
                                         call attention to the, in this case
                                         ugly, truth of your words. -dans
                                         \_ *laugh* "I know you are but what
                                            am I?"  You're so funny.
                                            \_ I'm someone who has the
                                               conviction to sign my name and
                                               stand behind my words.  Who are
                                               you? -dans
                                               \_ I don't play that game.  You
                                                  can deal with what I say,
                                                  who I am is not important.
                                                  If you can't deal, don't.
                                                  I don't care and didn't ask
                                                  you to throw your over
                                                  wrought spew on the thread
                                                  in the first place.  You
                                                  chose to join a thread and
                                                  respond to an anonymous
                                                  person.  No one forced you.
                                                  \_ Eh. -dans
                                                  \_ You say I don't understand
                                                     what you wrote.  I say
                                                     you're backpedalling
                                                     because your words
                                                     express a cynical and
                                                     selfish attitude, and I
                                                     called you on it.  We
                                                     can't both be right.
                                                     Personally, I throw my
                                                     hat in with the guy who
                                                     signs hist name, but I'm
                                                     biased. -dans
                                                     \_ You're an idiot. -gwb
                                                        \_ No, Mr. President,
                                                           what you meant to
                                                           say was ``Fuck
                                                           off'' -rbc
                                                    \_ I'll explain slowly for
                                                       you: I have no reason
                                                       to backpedal anything.
                                                       I'm somewhat anonymous,
                                                       this is only the motd,
                                                       \_ If it's ``only the
                                                          motd,'' why do you
                                                          care so much about
                                                          your anonymity? -dans
                                                          \_ Meow!
                                                       any intelligent person
                                                       who reads English can
                                                       understand what I said,
                                                       \_ I disagree with this
                                                          assertion. -dans
                                                          \_ MeOW!
                                                       I never took back a
                                                       single word of it, and
                                                       \_ I disagree with this
                                                          assertion. -dans
                                                          \_ meOW!
                                                       signing your name only
                                                       means you like seeing
                                                       your name in lights.
                                                       \_ If you believe this
                                                          ridiculous idea, it
                                                          directly contradicts
                                                          your statement that
                                                          ``it's only the
                                                          motd.'' -dans
                                                          \_ mEOw!
                                                       I wouldn't take the
                                                       signed over the
                                                       unsigned.  I would
                                                       actually read what
                                                       two people actually
                                                       said and decide from
                                                       that alone who was
                                                       correct and to what
                                                       degree.  Their name
                                                       status carries no
                                                       weight.  Again, you
                                                       \_ Your arguments in
                                                          this thread are,
                                                          imprecise, sloppily
                                                          worded, and, based
                                                          on some readings,
                                                          logically flawed.
                                                          You use the resulting
                                                          lack of clarity as an
                                                          excuse to justify
                                                          backpedalling, and
                                                          then assert that
                                                          ``any intelligent
                                                          person who reads
                                                          English can
                                                          understand what
                                                          [you] said.''
                                                          \_ MeOw!
                                                       voluntarily responded
                                                       to an anon person. Why
                                                       bother if you
                                                       automatically dismiss
                                                       them on that basic
                                                                    \_ [sic]
                                                                       \_ MEOW!
              \_ Heh.  I *broke* the ASUC election system the first year it
                 was computerized.  As in I produced a demonstrably working
                 exploit.  I then took my findings to the elections chair and
                 worked with him to secure against my exploit and other
                 avenues of attack.  I spoke about this at DefCon and
                 Computers Freedom and Privacy in 2004.  The following year
                 the election technical lead didn't test the old code until
                 the eve of the elections, and I led the team that wrote a
                 superior replacement in under 8 hours.  If you include time
                 to recruit the team members, it took approx. 12 hours from
                 start to rollout.  Last I checked, this code was still in
                 use, albeit with some modifications by OCF members.  If folks
                    \_ Oh shit. --team member
                 would like, I'd be happy to do a talk on this.  If you time
                 it at the beginning of the ASUC election campaign season and
                 flyer on south side, it would probably be a great way to
                 bring in more members that don't have traditional computing
                 backgrounds.  If current CSUA members want to see this
                 happen, email me. -dans
           \_ I probably would have attended. I think what you need to do
              is get people excited somehow, and then make sure that the
              talk delivers (see, for example, the series of talks by
              Brewer, Karp, etc, last year). The CSUA needs positive buzz.
              In my mind this means more than flyering - it means people
              going into classes and being _enthusiastic_ about what they
              are selling. Does current pburo have the mental energy to
              pull this off? Not meant as offensive. Also, as alumni,
              I could be wrong, full of shit, or both.
2006/3/1-4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42048 Activity:moderate
3/1     csua minutes: "Difficulty in recruitment:
        Right now our recruitment is in severe decline, what can we do to get
        people more interested in what we are doing.  Infosessions will help,
        but will be slow to develope.  This will be an open-ended discussion
        of things we can do to boost membership and more specifically
        active/interested membership."
        \_ Advice. Leave infosession to UCSEE and SWE that have traditionally
           dominated this area for the last two decades. You guys are
           stepping into dangerous territory and this turf war really
           sucks. Leave infosessions alone, bastards. If you seriously want
           to get more members, find a niche market, not something that
           steals from other established organisations. Do something new
           and innovative, like asking karen to do a bikini car wash drive.
           Hell, we'd pay for that.                     -anon ucsee rep
           \_ I don't even know what UCSEE stands for, and I want to have
              an infosession right now just to piss you off.  What a jackass
           \_ Uh, CSUA has been doing help sessions on stuff for quite a while.
              What's the difference between "infosessions" and "help sessions"?
              \_ i think one has students teaching unix shells and the other
                 has visitors from PIXR
          \_  UCSEE and SWE have traditionally dominated Infosessions for the
              last two decades?  Bullshit.  You're engaging in some pretty
              gross revision of history.  First off I *know* that UCSEE and
              SWE (did they used to be AWICSEE, or is that a different society
              for women engineering group?  Didn't AWICSEE's membership top
              out at like 6 people back in 2002?) had basically no physical
              presence in Soda Hall prior to 2005.  I find it highly unlikely
              that there's been a sea change in the last two years.  HKN,
              which does have a presence in Soda, always did a fair number of
              Infosessions, but it's usually hurting for original thinkers,
              and thus shamelessly rips off every good one the CSUA has (nb
              movies in 306 Soda--paolo, CSUA president circa 1999, startup
              jobs fair in the ASUC ballrom, i.e. a massive
              meta-infosession--jones, president circa 1998, I can go on...).
              UPE also used to have a hand in the Infosession game, but went
              into hibernation due to lack of interest circa 2004, has it
              reawakened?  The CSUA charter is to serve all students with an
              interest in computer science, and this is simply not true for
              UCSEE (only EECS students in COE, and arguably only those with
              an EE focus) or SWE (only Women in COE).  Furthermore, the CSUA
              provides services to the community that UCSEE and SWE don't
              including Help Sessions and Mentoring, and, in the past,
              received less money from the EECS department than either UCSEE
              or SWE.  So let me get this straight.  The CSUA serves a wider
              audience and provides more community services than UCSEE and SWE
              *combined*, but it should leave infosessions, which are
              conveniently the most profitable `service' a CS student group
              may offer to UCSEE and SWE.  Hogwash.  Nonsense.  Shite.  You
              don't like that the CSUA is reigning in on `your' turf?  Try
              matching the CSUA's services then you can talk.
              All that said, the groups don't necessarily need to fight over
              this.  The infosession landscape has at least one large,
              unfulfilled niche, which are smaller and/or startup companies
              that don't have the money to go through COE's industrial
              partnership program (the precise name escapes me).  The CSUA can
              and should bring these companies to campus.  Officially, they
              can't do `recruiting' events in Soda Hall, but there are plenty
              of worthwhile InfoSessions that are not de jure recruiting
              All that said, the groups don't necessarily need to fight over
              this.  The infosession landscape has at least one large,
              unfulfilled niche, which are smaller and/or startup companies
              that don't have the money to go through COE's industrial
              partnership program (the precise name escapes me).  The CSUA can
              and should bring these companies to campus.  Officially, they
              can't do `recruiting' events in Soda Hall, but there are plenty
              of worthwhile InfoSessions that are not de jure recruiting
              events, but serve the same purpose.  I did this with VMWare back
              when they were small and Zero Knowledge Systems (may it rest in
              peace) among others when I was CSUA president.  P.S. Sign your
              name instead of making thinly veiled, weak anonymous threats.
              \_ Gee, I wondered why dans knew so much about meth.
                 \_ Gee, I wonder why the preceding passage would do anything
                    to dispell your wonder?  Have you read any of the minutes
                    I took for the CSUA? -dans
           \_ ucsee must be destroyed!
        \_ Interesting.  So what will happen to all us cranky alumni when five
           or six selfless individuals cannot be scrounged up to cater to our
           every whim?  What will we do without wall, motd, and email spools
           filled with 99.99% spam?!
           \_ We could start a fight club.
              \_ Why would anyone want to endure pain and medical bills?
                 Make it a Counter-Strike fight club.
                 \_ Every anti-social nerd dies.  Not every anti-social nerd
                    really lives.
        \_ Does the CSUA still do a lot of social activities (BBQs, RISK
           tourneys, volleyball, etc.?)  Maybe asking if any CS profs will
           let you announce that sort of thing after lectures might help. -John
           \_ CSUA used to be fun in the early 90s. From reading the minutes
              however, it seems like people there have gotten a lot more
              serious.  They're trying to do mentoring, help sessions, info
              sessions, and other serious events that many other organizations
              (like UCSEE) have been doing long before CSUA started doing the
              same thing just recently (recent as in past 5 years?).  I don't
              know why this is the case. I suspect it is probably
              the same reason why there are fewer war protests and
              peace activists on Telegraph and Sproul Hall today than a
              few decades ago.
              \_ Speaking of which, I found Rick Starr.  He now performs (but
                 mostly just begs for change) in front of the 20th St. exit
                 of 19th St. Oakland BART.  His outfits are now significantly
                 on the side of bizarre and tattered, rather than just
                 tattered, and he seems to have lost significant spark.  Poor
                 Rick Starr.
              \_ I was wondering about this--I guess it's partly due to a
                 mixture of people getting into CS for $$$ in the late 90s,
                 more competitiveness and lower wages in the industry, and
                 the decline of the labs as people got PCs in dorms and
                 apartments.  -John
              \_ The CSUA has been doing serious events like help sessions
                 since antiquity.  Although other organizations offer
                 tutoring, no other organization offers anything like the
                 mentoring program.  While the CSUA may have been light on
                 infosessions prior to 1998, its history of corporate outreach
                 goes way back.  Soda Mark VI was donated by AMD.  If you look
                 \_ Through no fault of the CSUA's.  A UCB alum was working in
                    developer relations at AMD and offered MKVI to the CSUA.
                 in the circa 1990 CSUA t-shirt in the office you'll see an
                 EDS logo in the lower-right corner.  Do you think it got
                 there because the CSUA membership at the time just really dug
                 EDS?  Going all the way back to the birth of the CSUA, Soda
                 Mark I was a donated by Apollo Computer.  What other
                 `serious' events have other student orgs done since before
                 2000?  The faculty retreat?  I know we've been involved with
                 that since 1998, probably earlier, and I largely wrote the
                 joint presentation for two years (2001-2002?) -dans
        \_ I have a question.  What actions currently seem to bring people
           into the CSUA?  I joined the CSUA because there was an arcade
           game in the lounge and I wanted to fiddle with it.  I stuck
           around because I like crazy people, and paolo and dans were
           there.  I don't think I am normal. None of my mentees joined.
           In fact, I think the only person I ever successful recruited
           was ajaffe. So, why do people join? -jrleek
           \_ Easy. Someone told me you can get a free lifetime Berkeley
              account, so I went and signed up. I still use it. It's
              great to have that "" stamp on the top of
              your resume, it says a lot and catches attention at a glance.
           \_ What is the mentee -> active member conversion rate anyway?  I
              joined because paolo showed me the glory that was the CSUA
              lounge when we were both taking 61B, and I was thus able to
              escape the pits that are the labs.  I also had hopes that I
              could find and/or recruit others to hack on projects, but, for
              the most part, this did not pan out. -dans
           \_ For 3.5 years I knew the CSUA existed, but didn't really
              know anyone in it, what they did, why they were there, etc.
              Then Paolo brought Mortal Kombat 2 into the office in an
              attempt to get his TA to spend more time there, and it
              worked swimmingly. Once I hung out there a lot and got to
              know the people, joining seemed like a good idea. You
              need to get people in there in the first place,
              in a setting where they can meet people, and that's going
              to happen with social events like BBQs, volleyball, and
              game tourneys. Heck, a weekly poker game might draw a
              crowd. -bz
           \_ I had just arrived on campus and called a high school friend. He
              happened to have root and gave me an account over the phone. It's
              been my primary account for 13 years. I've never taken a single
              computer science course. I have occasionally been an motd
              annoyance. I'm not sure which better qualifies for CSUA
              membership. People are welcome to email me about engineering
              hydraulics, though. -- ulysses
           \_ I definitely got involved with the CSUA because the people
              involved in it seemed a lot more interesting and fun than the
              drones huddled in the labs.  It might have also had something
              to do with (president at the time) Seano, who I believe just
              wanted someone around that he could beat at Netrek.  --lye
        \_ On mentoring, how is it currently advertised?  Just flyers?
           Could we get into the normal CS student orientations?  When I
           joined the CSUA was helping out with the transfer student
           orientations.  Could we get into those? (Transfer
           students generally need all the help they can get.) -jrleek
2006/2/28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42033 Activity:kinda low
2/28    Wow, motd is extra snarky today, isn't it?
        \_ Just doing my part to make the motd a more interesting place to
           visit. -dans
           \_ Dan, do you need a hug? --erikred
              \_ Everyone loves hugs.  They make people feel special. -dans
                 \_ I'd think that's highly dependant on who's doing the
                    hugging.    -mice
2006/2/28-3/1 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42029 Activity:low
2/28    It switched again.  Lines from old and new motds:
        < FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE (MKVII) #0: Fri Dec 17 17:40:05 UTC 2004
        > FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE (SODA-MINIMAL) #0: Fri Dec 17 17:40:05 UTC 2004
        Although uname says we're still on soda-minimal.
        \_ I think there was a power failure.  Blame god.
        \_ Where can we see a record of the reboots and such?
           \_ man last
           \_ Bwahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
              I'm sorry.  Did you say something?  I was just struck by the
              uncontrollable urge to laugh at absurdity. -dans
              \_ Wow, you're an ass.
                 \_ A fucking ignorant ass, no less.
                    \_ No, the notion that the csua would keep records, ahem a
                       log, if you will, of system administration tasks above
                       and beyond what the system does automagically really is
                       laughable to anyone who spent enough time around the
                       csua to be even remotely familiar with its history and
                       culture.  So is the idea that requests for basic unix
                       information on the motd will be dignified with a
                       helpful response.  Though it does make me feel warm and
                       fuzzy that I can make anonymous cowards resort to
                       profanity in their ad hominem attacks. -dans
                       \_ So, given the choice between uselessly mouthing off,
                          providing an answer to a technical question, or
                          staying silent and not adding to the noise, you chose
                          to be a rude and useless jerk.  Nice.  At least tom
                          actually seems to have (and give) clue.  BTW, I don't
                          \_ tom_jerk > tom_clue
                             \_ heh
                          know which motd you've been reading, but I've seen
                          *a lot* of n00b questions get answered here without
                          empty sanctimoniuous snarkiness.
                             --does the ad hominem thing when PP's being a jerk
                          \_ When did we slip into your reality?  Why am I
                             typing with tentacles?  Where's that japanese
                             school girl?
                             Letting the days go by...
                             \_ Uhm, yeahhh....  Speaking of people with
                                reality my reality the *Japanese
                                schoolgirls* are the ones with the tentacles.
                                *sheesh*  kids these days....
                          \_ You call it noise.  I call it humor.  If you read
                             the motd regularly, then you'd know that I
                             provide helpful answers as well as deserved and
                             undeserved snarkiness.  In fact, I've got at
                             least two helpful responses in this motd alone
                             (see apache2 and sendmail threads).  Frankly, I
                             find your whole anonymous motd behaviorial critic
                             schtick to be pretty pathetic.  If it's so
                             important to you, at least have the courage to
                             sign your posts; I do. -dans
                             \_ *shrug*  Whatever floats your boat, dude.
                       \_ 'last' is what the op was looking for.  I don't think
                          they deserved to be abused for asking a question like
                          they did.  they certainly weren't asking for any
                          special logging or effort on anyone's part.
                                --doesn't do the ad hominen thing
           \_ "last | grep reboot".  I apologize in advance if this is actually
              useful info.
              \_ or "last reboot"
                 \_ Even better
                 \_ Excellent. Thanks. -op
2006/2/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41825 Activity:kinda low
2/13    Soda undergraduates, I am too old to remember this, is English
        1A/1B a requirement for CS in L&S?
        \_ I thought it was a requirement for every department in L&S.
           Relatively easy to test out of, though.
        \_ Yes, as the pp indicated, it is an L&S requirement, not a
           major/departmental requirement.  A 4 on the AP English exam tests
           you out of 1A, a 5 tests you out of both. -dans
        \_ OTOH 1B was not required for EECS.
        \_ There is the 2 semester R&C requirement but you don't have to take it
           from the English department.
        \_ and frankly, I am not sure English 1A/1B helped.... as my messages
           on motd clearly illustrated.
2006/2/8-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:41765 Activity:moderate
2/8     linxu, what is it you guys want from us alumni? Many of us are
        old, disillusioned, lonely, pathetic, and pissed off engineers.
        Many of us are single, still virgin, and almost 40 years of
        age! I'm not so sure that hooking up old and pissed off alumni
        with you happy and optimistic youngin' is actually a good thing
        for you guys. Seriously, don't do engineering and GET A LIFE outside
        of Soda! Screw coding, debugging, and sysadm. It's all meaningless
        and dry, and will get outsourced to India and China anyways.  How
        about ditching your new technical mentoring program and instead
        concentrate on things that'll make your life to be more
        fulfilling when you're older. For example get someone from Cal
        MBA to do tech entrepreneurial talk, or get hooked up with the
        busadm people, like doing a CSUA+MBA+busadm event. Seriously, there
        are so many fine opportunities and fine women outside of Soda.
        You deserve to have a better life than many of us uninformed
        alumni when we were young and stupid and didn't know what we
        were doing.  -disillusioned virgin, should have done something else
        \_ I think its much more for those alumni who would be interested in
           meeting the current politburo and office hosers.  I know a few
           graduated alumns who I think would come and would be nice to see
           again.  This is not necessarily a networking to get current students
           jobs or ellicit donations, but just to involve the alumni with the
           club more.  When I'm an alum I'd like to go to something occasion-
           ally to see how the club is currently functioning.  This is very
           much geared to friendly alumns, so if you are just angry and bitter
           (and don't want to at least act friendly) you probably want to stay
           home. -mrauser
        \_ maybe you should move to an asian country where your poor
           english skills will be less of a barrier to finding eligible
        \_ speak for yourself.  I could have learned a lot from alumni
           when I was in school if I hadn't been too busy playing on MUDs
           chasing after women--things I had to learn myself after I
           graduated and had to figure out what I wanted to do with my life.
           Good idea on the MBA entrepreneurial talk, though.  That could be
           pretty useful.
           \_ But would you have really listened to the bitter old men or
              dismiss them as, well, old and bitter virgins?
              \_ Well, I've found the "bitter old virgin" stereotype to be
                 mostly untrue -- except in a few cases where it's more a
                 problem of attitude than geek culture.  And yes, I'd have
                 listened to Soda's elder statesmen for general advice about
                 "what happens next", and I'd have looked out for the
                 opportunity to network with people in industry.  Maybe you
                 should get some counseling or something, man, since you seem
                 really unhappy and have a pretty self-defeating attitude...
                 unless you're happy being a old bitter virgin.
                 unless you're happy being an old bitter virgin.
                 \_ Nah, I was an arrogant kid in college and didn't listen
                    to any "elder statesmen" who might have showed up (and
                    few did). Lots of others were the same. It makes me wonder
                    if having an alumni meeting is worth it.
                    \_ The purpose of an alumni meeting is for alumni to meet
                       college girls. Maybe you're too old already though.
                       \_ Hey nineteen, that's Aretha Franklin. She don't
                          remember the Queen of Soul.
                    \_ Assuming you're the op, so you were an arrogant in
                       college and now you're a bitter old virgin.  Perhaps
                       it's time for a change in strategy?  In the mean time,
                       please don't be a bitter dour naysayer of good ideas
                       just because you wouldn't have benefited from them back
                       when you were a young ass. -dans
                       \_ Sorry, !op. The op is obviously trolling. I am
                          expressing the fact that in college, the last
                          thing I wanted to hear is old farts talking about
                          their glorious college days. If it's going talking
                          about the stuff they are doing now, that's better.
                          \_ Then why didn't you say that an alumni meeting
                             where they talk about what they are doing now >>
                             alumni reminiscing about college instead of
                             merely expressing vague, bitter, dour, naysayer
                             misgivings?  Seriously though, thanks for the
                             clarification, I think it's important. -dans
                             \_ No agenda mentioned. Assumed it was going
                                bitter, old virgins showing complaining about
                                the motd and their ideas of improving {unix,
                                nethack,BSG} all of which include more full
                                frontal MOTAS nudity.
                    to whatever "elder statesmen" who might have showed up
                    (and none did). Lots of others were the same. It makes
                    me wonder if having an alumni meeting worth it.
                                \_ That's funny.  All the CSUA allumni I
                                \_ That's funny.  All the CSUA alumni I
                                   know personally are a lot of fun,
                                   including the above dans.  I wanted to
                                   go just because it would be fun.-jrleek
                                   \_ I like feeding the myth. And I troll too.
        \_ Speak for yourself.  I'm a happy, married, going-on-30-year-old
           engineer.  I've liked every job I've had and can't imagine doing
           anything else.  I got my first few jobs because of all of the time
           I spent fiddling on the computer instead of { studying, having a
           life, going outside, etc } while in school.
        \_ Speak for yourself, I'm a happy mid-twentiesomthing alum.  I'm
           totally into the latest of a string of hot girlfriends that began
                                                  \_ pixP
                                                     \_ #t
             Stop being anal about this, P-guy.  ___P   _/
             was first popularized with foodP, which if
             people had really only responded with #t and nothing else
             wouldn't have been a very useful thing.  It just means
             ____? these days, deal with it.
                                                     \_ I date hot girls
                                                        because I like them,
                                                        not so I can parade
                                                        them around like some
                                                        sort of trophy for you
                                                        to ogle. -pp
             \_ ___P and #t are also mismatched conventions.
                \_ ___P ==>, boolean.  You know...#t/#f.
                   \_ I'm referring to mixing LISP vs. Scheme conventions.
                   \_ Okay, this is where we tell the joke about there being
                      10 kinds of people in the world, those who can count in
                      binary and those who can't, thereby officially
                      consigning this argument to the nerd humor graveyard
                      after killing it, digging it up, and killing the zombie
                      corpse again. -dans
                      \_ Speaking of zombies, I thought Cemetary Man kind
                         of rocked.  That was a great film.  I've never
                         been as impressed with the Romero Quartet, though.
                         \_ I'll have to check that out.  Thanks. -dans
                   \_ analP
                      \_ correctP
           back in my undergrad days.  As an undergrad I spent lots of time
           geeking out, learned a lot, but still made time for a social life
           (not necessarily out of Soda, but a social life nonetheless).  The
           time spent geeking out definitely led to the jobs I've held.  I
           left my most recent gig in November, took a few months off, and am
           excited about the prospects for what's next.
        \_ what about happy old virgins?
        \_ Ah reminds me of the good old days where CS8 (Pascal) was a
           Business Admin requirement (logic, you know) and, as a reader or
           lab aide, the access to cute women was easy...
        \_ To the lonely 40 year-old virgin sodan, if you are truly
           depressed, and want to do something about your life before
           it is too late (or before your sperm all dries up), move
           out of Silicon Valley, seriously! If I am in your
           situation, I would seriously consider working in another
           country (especially Asian country such as China) for a few
           years instead of rotting in the Silicon Valley waiting for
           something to happen. You don't have to work I the tech
           field, teach English, or be a fool and appear in their TV
           shows! Apply for graduate school there. If you work there
           for a few years you'll get to know the girl better so you
           have more to base your decision on. It's an equal playing
           field. It'll be the opposite of Silicon Valley for you. You
           get to say "sorry, I am flattered, but I am not
           interested!". Or you can continue to bitch and moan about
           being a virgin on soda.
           \_ That's only if you want to date Asian women, NTTAWWT. I
              guess it might work also in Latin America, in which case
              you are an f-ing genius.
2006/2/7-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:41755 Activity:moderate
2/7     Dear Alumni, the current politburo is thinking about having an alumni
        event. We were thinking of having an event here in Berkeley in a couple
        of months (perhaps near the end of the semester). Here are some options
        we would like you guys to vote on:
        * Resturant or Soda-BBQ
        * Weekend Evening or Weekday Evening?
        * How far in advance?
        Thanks all
        -lin / CSUA Alumni relations
        \_ ack, this is too much pressure! What is it you want from
           us alumni? Money? Attention? Job? Companion? Love? Well
           we can't offer the last one but I can give you an advice.
           If you don't have a mate and graduating soon, GET ONE.
           Real life in Silicon Valley is lonely and depressing and
           unfulfilling. You spend weekdays and weeknights with other lonely
           geeks like yourself, debugging someone else's code 24x7.
           I guess this is alright if you're gay. But if you're not,
           understand that most of the women in Silicon Valley are
           married, and those that aren't are either old, ugly, or both,
           and still in high demand. Get mate while you're still in college
           or forever be doomed to bitching on motd as your only source of
           sexual relief                -pathetic alum, really miss college
           \_ Actually I really miss multi-day hack sessions, sexual
           \_ Actually I really miss multiple day hack sessions, sexual
              frustration, and lonely geekdom.
           \_ I agree, if I hadn't gotten married right out of college, I
              don't know how I would've met anyone around here. -happy mar.
           \_ I met a sexy young caucasian girl who works for a pharmie as a
              s/w engineer who is single. So it can happen.
              \_ Are you serious? It is my impression that most of the sodans
                 have Asian fetish. You are not a real Sodan.
                 \_ Err, most != all
        \_ I won't speak for all alums, but I imagine weeknights are
           bad for everyone what with work/wife/kids. They are probably
           also bad for students what with school and/or work. Make it
           a Friday or Saturday.
        \_ Soda-BBQ seems much better in terms of miixing and such.
        \_ Soda-BBQ works better for me. Make is on the weekend before
           a Cal game and I will show up for sure! -ausman
        \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend for me.  --dbushong
        \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend works for me. -dans
           \_ P.S. Two weeks lead time would be great.  My February is
              already completely booked.
        \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend is the most likely for me.  It would be fun
           to meet some of the people that I've been ridiculing on MOTD for
           years so I can ridicule them in person.  You going to be there
           John?...I could sure use a good yodel to perk me up.       -mice
           \_ Olay deedle fucking dee.  -John
        \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend for me, too.
           You know, back in my day, we didn't have BBQ's.  Or sodas.  Or
           weekends.  We had treebark.  And we liked it.  We loved it.
           \_ *pshaw*  In my day, we didn't even have trees.  We just had
              roots.   When we got hungry we had to gnaw on the bare,
              uncooked roots in the sun (since we didn't have trees for shade).
              Kids these days....              -mice
           \_ I needed a new heel for my shoe, so I decided to go to
              Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those
              days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at
              the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in
              those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on
              'em. 'Give me five bees for a quarter,' you'd say. Now
              where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an
              onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They
              didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing
              you could get was those big yellow ones...
2006/2/7-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41752 Activity:nil
2/7     amckee's politburo made a sharp turn to the right when they
        authorized the electronic surveillance of motd post. Read
        the minutes and grep for jrleek. God Bless.
        \_ no loggers going. flame down.  -mrauser
           \_ Alright then, how do you explain tom identifying people
              correctly? And why did you vote for Bush in 2000 and 2004?
              \_ I believe mrauser is replying in the context of official
                 kernel-integrated logging, not logging by users privately.
        \_ didn't they eventually decide to turn off all logging?
                \_ We now only log suspected loggers, unless the post is really
           \_ Not true. The religious right took over politburo and now
              it thinks and acts just like the Bush administration. The
              bottom line, if you are a good person you have nothing to hide.
                \_ We now only log suspected terrorists, unless the post is
                   really juicy.
                   \_ huh?
2006/2/6-7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41724 Activity:nil
2/6     Anyone else receiving email messages that have headers but
        no content?  I confirmed with the sender that there was in
        fact content in what was sent.  Perhaps the recent downtime
        plus massive mail delivery to catch up is to blame, but I've
        never observed this particular symptom.   -srgordon
        \_ I received a couple of emails like this too. - ciyer
                \_ I received at least 1 email like this.  Also, I did
                   not receive one particular email that was sent either
                   Sunday or Monday afternoon (it's already Tuesday morning
                   as I write this).
        \_ Me three.  --PeterM
        \_ It has been asked multiple times on MOTD, and I don't recall ever
           seeing a technical answer.  So what is causing the recent soda
           \_ amckee fostered a culture where socializing and mentoring
              freshman/sophomore candidates for the CS major were prioritized
              over technical clue, in particular system administration.  At
              \_ Stop criticizing amckee. You're either with amckee, or
                 against amckee. Even if you don't criticize him he may
                 launch an preemptive attack in Operation Squish Dissent
                 until Mission Accomplished. How? His conservative buddies
                 in politburo spies by reading secret root motd log and
                 email without warrants. Amckee is right. He is always
                 right and resolute. So bring it on, dans. God Bless.
                 \_ Kindly explain how a factual recount of recent history may
                    be considered `criticism.'  Anyway, it be broughten. -dans
                    \_ I think you missed the joke.  --someone else
                       \_ Joking at the expense of amckee is a sorryable
              the same time he alienated many alumni including some root
              staff.  Thus, present day ops staff (i.e. VP) get less insight
              and assistance than they did in the past.  Present day ops staff
              may or may not have clue, I don't know, I've never met them.
              That said, the motd has never been an official politburo/root
              outlet.  Consider mailing politburo, root, or, bettery yet, show
              up to a politburo meeting.
2006/1/27-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41575 Activity:nil
1/27    Hi mehlhaff, can you restart your motd,v archiving please?  Thanks!
        \_ mehlhaff, please rtfm (man crontab) and setup a cron to make
           your archiver more reliable. Having to start it manually is
           pretty silly IMHO.
           \_ Someone obviously doesn't know mehlhaff.
2006/1/12-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41363 Activity:kinda low
1/12    Help. I'm addicted to the motd. I end up reading the entire
        motd every 30 min just to check for updates. It is really
        interfering with my work. What can I do to get rid of this
        horrible addiction?
        \_ take up masturbation
           \_ That might be difficult if he works in an office....
              \_ Go to the men's room.
                 \_ Or, better, the women's
                    \_ Always assuming the sex starved person is male
                       gets lame after awhile.Not to mention sexist

                       gets lame after awhile. Not to mention sexist
                       \_ Sex starved people on the motd are generally
                          male. so people are going to assume they are
                          unless there is reason to believe otherwise.
                          Put your big girl panties on, and deal with
                          it (i'm manking no assumption of gender here).
                       \_ That's because women can get laid anytime
                          they want to.
        \_ kais motd intellidiff makes update-checking much faster
           \_ how do I use it?
                 hit reload, new stuff appears in green
                 \_ I hate you.                                 -op
        \_ Are you hanging on my every word?
        \_ run /csua/bin/motdbrowser
        \_ Read new entries with diff, or motdwatch or something.
2005/12/30-2006/1/4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41176 Activity:nil
12/30   Anyone have any idea why soda has been going down more frequently
        lately?  Haven't seen any info in the official motd, it's been a
        couple of times in the last week, iirc.  (Not meant to be a
        criticism, just wondering what the problem is - thanks to whoever
        \_ obItsTakingLessonsFromYermom
        couple of times in the last week, iirc.  (Not meant to be a
        criticism, just wondering what the problem is - thanks to whoever
        \_ it's on windowz now?
           \_ hint:  uname -a
              \_ Seriously, where are all the humourless n00bs coming from
                 these days?
                 \_ our humor has been outsourced i guess..
                    \_ people that aren't funny...
        \_ So really, what's going on with soda?
2005/12/13-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40999 Activity:nil
12/13   The motd archiver is looking for a more permanent, non-UCLA home.
        I as the author will give out the complete DB and the source code
        of KAIS MOTD to whoever wants to continue hosting the archives,
        preferably outside of the .edu domain for the purpose of
        fault tolerance and many other reasons. I don't mind if the new
        owner renames it or do whatever with it as long as the archives are
        provided to the public on a continuing basis as has been
        done in the past few years. If you have the hardware to share
        (small bandwidth and only 300M disk), I will spend time to set it
        up for you. If no one wants to host it, the archiver will be gone
        for good some time next year. Thanks.                   -kchang
        \_ Would this be a good thing for
           \_ the person who owns does not want to host it, for
              good reasons (liability, maintenance, etc). In short I actually
              think the death of the archiver may actually be good. It'll allow
              a few selected motd addicts to move on with their lives. As for
              me, I don't mind having one less thing to maintain for the
              pleasure of other people.                                 -kchang
              \_, then
                 \_ It's pointing back to the original .edu ip.
        \_ is soda out of question?
2005/12/6-7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40875 Activity:high
12/6    Sigh, finding my current kchang alias. -emarkp
        So now I'm "reagan".  Just so you know kchang, I've sent an email to
        root asking for your access to motd to be terminated.  I have no idea
        if it will happen or not, but I thought you'd like to know. -emarkp
        \_ Jesus christ you really are pathetic aren't you?
        if it will happen or not, but I thought you'd like to know. -emarkp
        \_ Ooh.  Now I'm hirohito!  You're so clever! -emarkp
           \_ it's random. it's clear that someone has no sense of humor.
           \_ Beats me. I'm emarkp on mine.
              \_ I realized after refreshing it a few times that my alias is
                 rotating through several choices.  It's not totally random
                 AFAICT though, because none of the aliases I'm getting are
                 neutral.  Apparently kchang's maturity level is at about 5
                 years old. -emarkp
                 \_ likewise, your intelligence is at about 5 years old.
                    It took you how long to figure out that you're not
                    being singled out?
                 \_ It's not as deterministic as that. I get mostly super
                    villain names, but so do other posters who posted
                    when I wasn't online.  So it's not a strict mapping.
                    Different users can share the same kchang identity.
                    \_ I suspect there are different classifications.  If
                       you've criticized kchang in the past, you only get names
                       that are negative in his hierarchy.  My alias of
                       "reagan" isn't evil to me, but I'll bet it is to kchang.
                       \_ And I suspect you are being paranoid. I am biased
                          though, since I am enjoying all the bad guy names
                          he's finding. He hasn't even ventured into the
                          Reagan- or Nixon-era names, yet, but admPoindexter
                          may be coming soon. Or perhaps he'll stick to the more
                          simplified comic book villains and slurs. -- megatron
                          \_ It took about 2 minutes to write a script to log
                             the names I'm given.  Here are the top 4:
                             109     reagan
                             17      redneck
                             13      miniMe
                             11      hannibalLector
                             Now I suppose kchang might simply be incompetent
                             and his use of a random number generator is
                             flawed, but the above doesn't look random to me.
                             \_ You're being a fucking idiot.  The vast
                                majority of names are some type of villain.
                                Maybe you'd rather be Stalin?  or theWickedOne?
                                How exactly are these names non-random?  What
                                could you possibly have in common with mini-me?
                                The world does not revolve around you.
                                \_ I think he wants "theHumorlessOne"
                                \_ Hi kchang!  It looks like you've changed
                                   your script since I posted this.  Now
                                   suddenly (within the last few minutes) I've
                                   been assigned many more names.  Did you fix
                                   your random number usage?  Or did you move
                                   me off your "bad" list? -emarkp
                                   \_ you are such a paranoid. and you've
                                      been trolled. congrats.
                                   \_ I'm not kchang.  For fucks sake, man,
                             \_ Cool. Would you mind posting the script so we
                                can all check it out? -- theTempter (as of
                                a minute ago)
        \_ Where is this kchang namecalling down? Is this a new KAIS MOTD
           \_ Mehlhaff has been doing it for years with cvs.  It was still
              there last time I checked.
              \_ I use RCS.  -ERic
        \_ FWIW, I like it. I think it's hilarious.  Also, I'm glad the
           archive and search functions are back.
           \_ Me too! Lighten up, dude. The mapping of name to kchang name
              seems pretty random to me. I doubt there is a line:
                 if (login == emarkp) name = something_negative;
              I bet it's just the luck of the draw. - magneto
        \_ It still seems random to me.  Are you at all sure it can tell who
           is posting what?  I'm still not even sure what my own alias is.  I
           assume we all have one or they're assigned randomly.
        \_ I'm getting positive characters, like megatron -- w00t!
           \_ Megatron is the leader of the Decepticons in the cartoon.
              Decepticon is um, evil. Megatron combines brute strength,
              military cunning, ruthlessness and terror. Aches to return to
              Cybertron to conquest after destroying all Autobots on earth.
              Plans to possess all Earth resources. Incredibly powerful and
              intelligent. Fires nuclear- charged fusion cannon. Can link up
              interdimensionally to a black hole and draw antimatter from it
              for use as a weapon. No known weakness.
                \_ He was cool though!  Turned into a gun and everything
                   \_ He got pwned by Optimus Prime.  Repeatedly.  Even
                      after he became Galvatron.                   -mice
                      \_ Acutally if you watch the the first movie very
                         closely although Optimus Prime is still "standing"
                         after the fight, he is the first one to die.
                         Megatron is still in good enough shape to talk
                         back to Unicron and doesn't ever "die" like
                         Optimus Prime. So if anyone got pwnd, it was
                         Prime. [ Yes, Galvatron was beaten by Rodimus
                         Prime, but that was only b/c Unicorn weakened
                         Megatron to the point where he could be beaten
                         by the autobots; Rodimus couldn't hope to beat
                         Megatron ] - Megatr0n #1 fan
                         \_ Oh puhLEEEAZE -- the only reason Optimus Prime
                            didn't waste megatron was because of that useless
                            interfering twit Hot Rod.  Dude, megatron got
                            tossed out on his ear by freakin' Starscream.
                            Starscream!, man -- how wussy is *that*?  At least
                            Optimus got resurrected as himself, rather than
                            absorbed like megatron.          -mice
                            \_ Optimus got resurrected? Did we watch
                               different movies? Optimus dies and turns
                               gray in the one I watched and Hot Rod
                               is given the crystal of power (or whatever).
                               Cf. Megatron who doesn't die, but is
                               repaired by Unicron. The part where
                               Megatron is tossed out by Starscream
                               is the sadest part of the movie, but
                               he makes up for any whimpyness in the
                               very next scene w/ Unicron.
                               Cf also, Megatron's battle cry "Dece-
                               pticons Attack!" to "Autobots Rollout!"
                               No comparison. Its like "Warp Speed Mr.
                               Scott!" and "Beam me up Scotty" vs.
                               "Engage" and "Energize." :-)
                               \_ Optimus eventually got resurrected (twice!)
                                  in the TV show.
                               \_ Optimus eventually got resurrected
                                  (twice!) in the TV show.
                                  \_ The original tv show? Or one of
                                     the more recent updates? I don't
                                     remember Optimus dying until the
                                     movie (but then again the last
                                     time I watched transformers was
                                     more than 15+ yrs ago).
                                     \_ Yes, the old TV show, a little while
                                        after the movie came out.  Not the
                                        new CG/anime stuff.
           \_ I'm getting Dr. Evil or Cobra Cmdr, but I'd prefer Dr. Claw!
              All in all the names are cool.
              \_ Not the kwah... the kwah!
        \_ How long do you think it will take kchang to add 'emarkp' to the
           list of supervillains?  Will emarkp have a fit when he
           randomly gets labeled with the horrible moniker emarkp?
           Why do you read the motd so much if it offends you?  Weren't
           you the guy filtering out curse words from the motd?
           \_ Hi anonymous troll! -emarkp
        \_ It's random for me ... I went from megatron to LeftWingNut to bush
           to MaoZedong.  I think kchang is just trying to identify the
           same posters without identifying the identity of the posters,
           pretty cool.  Is his degree going to be in social studies of geek
           to MaoZedong.  Is his degree going to be in social studies of geek
           \_ It now appears to be random for me as well.  The distribution was
              very much /not/ uniform before, now it appears to be. -emarkp
              \_ Uhm, welcome to the nature of randomness.
                 \_ 7 is the most random number!
        \_ Is there a way to add nicknames?
           \_ How about "moroni"
        \_ Before some politburo individual reads this and overreacts, there is
           nothing inherently wrong with kchang archiving the motd, attempting
           to guess posters' identities, and posting insulting names in their
           places (if he were doing so, which is not the case). If you don't
           like kchang's sense of humor, don't bother going to his website.
           This is not high school; hell, this is not even college. This is
           a globally editable message board which is sometimes informative,
           but often irrelevant, like most of the Internet. Get over it.
           \_ politburo should squish darthVader and Megatron the same way
              amckee squished brett.
2005/12/4-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40838 Activity:moderate
12/3    Read the motd.  Now. - jvarga
        \_ jvarga is my hero! (You were on this till 2:30am?) -jrleek
           \_ No, I was on this til 4:00am and then forced myself to sleep
              because I get up for church at 7:30am.  But at least no one can
              tell me I am dragging my feet on new-soda anymore. - jvarga
        \_ Can you add the new key info to:
           Thanks for all your hardwork.
           \_ Soon.  I am dead tired right now and just doing stupid random
              stuff to make myself feel better. - jvarga
              \_ thanks for all the time you've put into this  -sax
                 \_ Yeah, jvarga, you and the rest of root staff that have
                    been working on this rock harder. - ajani`
        \_ I remember in the good old days when Soda machine has to get
           to the point of become unbearably slow before the hardware upgrade.
           Good job, guys.  out of curiousity, what went wrong with the old
           Soda again
        \_ Run soda inside a VM, and then VMOtion it to the other machine
           with 0 downtime!! ;)
2005/12/4-2006/4/7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40836 Activity:nil
12/4    Welcome to Soda Mark VII!  Host keys have changed, the system is
        faster, so you can harass the motd faster than ever before.  There is
        probably a LOT of stuff not installed.  Please nicely email root if
        something does not work and we will get to it asap.  Send cake.  Now.
        I hate sendmail.  Sorry, but I think I bounced every email sent to
        @CSUA between 9pm and 2:30am. - jvarga
2005/11/28-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40743 Activity:nil
11/27   Soda rebooted, so I decided to edit the motd when noone's loggers
        were turned on. -mrauser
        \_ What went wrong with soda?
2005/11/21-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40675 Activity:kinda low
11/21   Okay, does anyone have a problem with deleting old motd entries?  I
        delete everything older than yesterday and someone keeps putting it
        \_ Older than yesterday? ADD a bit?
        \_ Apparently yes, if someone keeps restoring.
        \_ Two days old and helpful/interesting sounds right.
           \_ The general rule I use is 2 days unless a particular thread
              older than 2 days is still active OR the motd is way too long
              to retain 2 days worth of stuff.
        \_ Yeah I've had people pull that on me. Keeping a long-ass motd
           with stale old shit sucks. Fuck whoever does that.
2005/11/17-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40636 Activity:nil
11/17   Anyone noticed ilyas' absense on motd? Has he finally quit
        being a government leech and become a useful member of society?
        \_ no, he's still in grad sk00l far as i know, but yeah he quit motd
        \_ You could simulate most of an ilyas by randomly nuking the motd!
2005/11/17-19 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40635 Activity:nil
11/17   I'm 41, so what am I allowed to complain about on motd ? I think
        if anything, you becoming more accepting of things  the older
        you get.
        \_ If you're replying to the "at least wait till you're 40" post
           below, I was not meaning to imply that being over 40 makes it cool
           to bitch about young people--just that bitching about young people
           when you're barely over 30 demonstrates spectacular levels of
           assheadedness.  There have always been good people who work hard and
           don't complain, and there have always been stupid whiners.
           \_  I can agree with that. I went back to college for awhile
               and found it odd to be in classes with people who
               were not even born when you started college.
               \_ Hot and easy college babes are worth it, though.
                  \_ and if you can't get them, there is always the moms.
        \_ standard grumpy-old-man stuff about how things are easier these
           days and th whiners should shut up, because you had to hike to
           school 5 miles uphill each way, in the snow.
        \_ You can always bitch about punctuation and formatting.  What
           year were you?
           \_ Let me put it to  you this way, my first  college level
           CS course (in pascal) was in 1983 and was done on punch cards.
            ( .. which leads to  many .. in my day lines ... )
              \_ I am curious because I thought there wasn't anyone from an
                 earlier class than me ('89) on motd.  In fact, when I
                 graduated, I was the first CSUA excom member to do so in
                 2 years.
                   \_  I did not actually graduate from Cal; so you
                       probably don't know me.
                       \_ Well, it's either that or you're okamoto.
                          \_ I actually know Jeff; but its been a few
                          years (over ten now) since I did anime stuff
                 \_ Indeed, who are you, ancient master? -jrleek
              \_ Punch cards?  Didn't Apple ][ support Pascal?
                 \_ These were batch jobs run on the campus mainframe.
                 At that time; only  CS majors got the priviledge of
                 using green screens since they were in short supply.
                 This was not at Cal; btw.
                 \_ Yes, Apple ][ did support Pascal. But in 1983 Apples ][e
                    cost more than a semester at Cal.
                 \_ You have an odd sense of punctuation; btw.
              \_ When I first learned C after using Pascal for a year in
                 school, I though C was cool.  Now after using C for 15 years,
                 I miss Pascal.
            \_ The sad thing is you're only 13 years ahead of me and time has
               been flowing exponentially faster year after year. Ok maybe
               logarithmically. or something.
                 \_ Its like Indy used to say: "Its not the years; its
                    the mileage"
2005/11/14-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40588 Activity:kinda low
11/14   Time for silly motd confessional:  I have been flirting with Kalamata
        First, I hated olives.  Later I would enjoy a very small bit of
        tapenade on toast.  Then I decided I would slowly nibble Kalamata
        olives, but only 1 or 2 in a session.  Now I devour them.  OK, 'night.
        \_ Same thing happened to me, but without the tapenade.
           It's not hard to hate "California" olives (the black ones you get
           on pizzas and everywhere).  They're horrid.
        \_ Where can I get some?  Are they cheap?  I've always hated
           olives, I'm interested in the idea that some don't taste
           like salted crap.
           \_ Kalamata are ripe olives cured in red wine vinegar.  The ones
              with the pits in them have better texture.  I've had nice ones
              from the olive bins at Cheeseboard and Berkeley bowl.
           \_ I like the pitted Kalamatas in olive oil in a bottle they have at
              Trader Joe's. They're pretty cheap (~ $3, IIRC).  The ones in
              water are slightly more expensive and slightly "nicer" (fewer
              ripped ones, etc), but the olive oil ones have a better mouth
              feel.  Mmm.  Fat.  --dbushong
              \_ Kalamatas are often scored to allow the marinade to penetrate
2005/11/8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40492 Activity:high
11/8    Would someone give me a pointer on what was the big controversy
        surrounding KAIS MOTD, the whole story, and in particular, why
        the name attribute logging is a such big deal?  ever since
        KAIS MOTD being terminated, people start to censoring MOTD again.
        and it is very annoying.
        \_ So, someone said something threatening toward amckee, like
           instituting a blacklist saying "do not hire amckee".  amckee
           used KAIS MOTD identification to turn off someone's account,
           someone who turned out to be innocent because KAIS MOTD's
           identification was in error.  The Politburo sent mail to
           kchang asking him to turn it off, with wording that some
           inferred to mean "turn off the ident feature or else."
           kchang just took the whole thing down.  Clear enough?  --PeterM
        \_ Politburo sent kchang a couple e-mails asking him to turn off
           the ID feature, or at least put a big disclaimer about its
           (in)accuracy.  kchang did not respond to Politburo e-mail and was
           threatened by a Politburo member that he may be sorried if he didn't
           write back.  kchang decided to turn off the archiver entirely.
2005/11/8-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40491 Activity:high
11/8    tom holub
        \_ ilya shpitser
        \_ david bushong
        \_ charlie root
        \_ geordan rosario
           \_ Hi! -geordan
        \_ peter mardahl

           \_ (what does this list of names represent?)
                \_ People who were at yermom's last night.  -John
              \_ Evidence that the price of green in Berkeley is Way Too High.
        \_ So, someone said something threatening toward amckee, like
           instituting a blacklist saying "do not hire amckee".  amckee
           used KAIS MOTD identification to turn off someone's account,
           someone who turned out to be innocent because KAIS MOTD's
           identification was in error.  The Politburo sent mail to
           kchang asking him to turn it off, with wording that some
           inferred to mean "turn off the ident feature or else."
           kchang just took the whole thing down.  Clear enough?  --PeterM
           \_ Thanks, peterM
              in my innocent eye, kchang has nothing to do with this at all.
              he has repeatly, and clearly labled that his "name attribute"
              logging feature is not accurate.  I don't think it's kchang's
              problem when someone falsely put faith on that feature, no?
                  \_ Yes, I understood clearly that kchang's naming
                     feature was not accurate.  In fact, his feature
                     misattributed to me things I didn't say (other
                     things it got right).  Nevertheless, I liked the
                     feature:  it's fine if you understand the quality
                     and uncertainty of the data.  --PeterM
              \_ It's a GOOD thing that the archiver is down. Some of
                 the comments amckee made could be really damaging
                 to him in the future. Ditto with tjb and ilyas.
                 \_ my motd archiver is still going strong.  -ERicM
           \_ it was not a threat, it was an retaliation. I personally
              made sure that amckee will never get hired by Google,
              Intel, IBM, and countless other companies. I love networking.
              \_ This seems inappropriate to me.  If you think the guy is so
                 vile that he needs to blacklisted, don't you think that
                 he'd do a good job shooting himself down in interviews?  If
                 you think you need to do MORE then it's clearly personal and
                 not professional.  Alot can be said of amckee, but I don't
                 think this sort of retaliation based on motd content is
                 \_ It's often difficult diagnosing personality disorders in
                    an interview.
                    \_ Yeah, the evidence is that psychopath blacklister
                       guy got hired.
                       \_ Honestly, I wouldn't hire either of them, but knowing
                          what I do, if I had to choose I think I'd hire
                          amckee over the blacklister guy, but because at least
                          amckee is honest, and blacklister guy is basically
                          a cowardly grudge-holding bastard.
                          \_ I have personally contacted God, and I've made
                             sure no one from Earth is going to Heaven.
              \_ you also seem to love hyperbole.
              \_ Just curious--how could you _make sure_ that these
                 companies won't hire someone?  Won't that imply these
                 companies maintain a blacklist themselves?
                \_ I hope I never come across you in my professional life.
                   Blacklisting is vile.  --PeterM
                        \_ Ditto.  To pp, go fuck yourself.  -John
                   \_ not exactly smart signing your name.
                        \_ What, so I'm supposed to cower in fear
                           of the blacklister?  What is he going to do, put
                           me on a blacklist for being anti-blacklists?  Or
                           is he going to invent some slander/libel?  --PM
                      \_ It's not only "motd content", but the personal
                         threats made to some people, and the lack of
                         any apologies.  Look at the psb web site for the
                         hysterical rantings -- "I will file a restraining
                         order" "Your friends will not be able to help you"
                         "The CSUA is a Stalinist Empire and I am Uncle Joe"
                         "I am keeping a log of your actions" "psb you have
                         been a hoser by spamming the csua@@csua mailing list"
                         "the full scrutiny of contract law" "alumni on our
                         servers is clearly in violation of campus policies"
                         "I am the resident asshole".  I doubt the earlier
                         poster has the power to have amckee banned at several
                         large companies, but one can point to the very words
                         written by amckee.
                         \_ So you've appointed yourself judge, jury, and
                         \_ So he's appointed himself judge, jury, and
                            executioner, and decided that establishing a
                            precedent for intimidation and execution of
                            threats on the motd was a more rational and
                            responsible behavior?  How is that supposed to
                            be good for the motd community as a whole?
                            Honestly, I think you're the one that should be
                            sorried here since you not only made threats, but
                            seem to have actually carried through on them.
                            Honestly, I think he's the one that should be
                            sorried here since he not only made threats, but
                            seems to have actually carried through on them.
                            Uh oh...have I just made myself a blacklist
                            candidate, now too?
        \_ Politburo sent kchang a couple e-mails asking him to turn off
           the ID feature, or at least put a big disclaimer about its
           (in)accuracy.  kchang did not respond to Politburo e-mail and was
           threatened by a Politburo member that he may be sorried if he didn't
           write back.  kchang decided to turn off the archiver entirely.
           \_ This is in the context of a CSUA president who threatened to
              turn off the accounts for at least two more people, never
              apologized to them, and did a lot of semi-unstable ranting
              documented at
              and the request-like rather than threat-like nature of the mails
              was not communicated to kchang. And some of the communication
              was from non-politiburo persons.
              \- what sort of moron would try to outthink psb? ok tnx. --#1 fan
              \_ What sort of moron would try to outthink psb? --#1 fan
                 \- psb for president-4-life -- #2 fan
                    \_ !psb  -John
                       \_ I think !psb may be a popular candidate at the next
                          politburo elections. -gm
2005/11/7-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40477 Activity:low
11/07   Has the KAIS MOTD issue been resolved? Can Kevin turn
        the 24 hr diff and searching again?
        \_ Kevin can do whatever he likes.  We asked him (not demanded) that
           he turn off the name attribute logging feature because we thought
           it would make a more anonymous better environment.  We didn't mean
           to imply that if he didn't turn it off we would sorry him (as it
           is easy for anyone to log motd edits and hard to stop or track
           those who do). -mrauser
           \_ He would not (necessarily) be sorried for leaving the logging
              feature active (unless it became a big problem later in which he
              might be officially given an ultimatum), but he was threatened
              with sorrying for not responding to the Politburo e-mails.
        \_ It is my wish to see CSUA become a better place than before. I am
           convinced that the motd experiments I ran in the past year
           made CSUA much worse, and I apologize to countless number of
           people who were directly or indirectly inconvenienced by the
           experiments. I'm very sorry. I have unplugged my work indefinitely
           and I hope by doing so CSUA will be nice again. Finally I'd like to
           point out that mehlhaff has done a great job archiving the motd
           on a consistent basis and I highly recommend his work. Mehlhaff's
           original archiver was an inspiration to me, and will no doubt
           continue to inspire many programmers to come. Thanks. -kchang
           \_ Translation: "You've done a good job pissing me off.
              I have no intention of providing a service
              for you ungrateful sodans and incompetent politburo
              members alike. I'm leaving, y'all go fuck yourselves."
           \_ I found the kais motd extremely useful ... and searching
              through it quite helpful. who thinks so strongly otherwise?
           \_ I agree that your efforts as a whole made it significantly worse.
              However, removing the "guess the poster" function would make
              things better IMO. -emarkp
              \_ I sometimes used the search/archive features. I think it
                 was useful and would lobby to have it turned back on
                 without the aforementioned "guess the poster" function.
                 \_  Thirded.
                   \_ I will add on a small bribe.
                      \_ Yeah, ok, so would I.  So what's yer price, kchang?
                         \_ The price is a regime change in politburo, a
                            regime that is now ruling soda with an iron fist
                            \_ You would need some sort of fake WMD evidence
                               before you can embark on a regime change.
                               \_ [insert ObPantsMissle joke here]
                                  \_ [insert ObFakedIntel joke here]
                 \_ me too -ausman
           \_ The ID feature created a great deal if not all of the
              controversy.  I think it was a very helpful service otherwise.
2005/10/26-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40277 Activity:moderate 76%like:40271
10/25   To Politburo:
        The next time you decide to limit or modify a feature available to
        many CSUA users, can you please please please consult motd or a
        well-populated mailing list first, you know, just to get the popular
        opinion?  Thanks. -soda user
        \_ Politburo voted to *ask* kchang to turn off the attribution
           in KAIS MOTD, and specifically said that they weren't going
           to sorry him or anything if he refused.  Read Brett's message
           carefully: the first paragraph is from politburo, the second
           is the opinion of one random person on root, and the third is
           from Brett personally.
           \_ Nice revisionist history.  Politburo and root staff as bodies
              asked kchang to turn off attribution.  One staff member (turns
              out to be Jon) said adding a disclaimer would be sufficient.
              (BTW, in my universe, the word of one root staff member is
              worth much less the the combined opinion of the politburo and
              the root staff.  Perhaps it is different in your universe.)
              There was a threat of account shut down if kchang does not reply
              (not clear who the source of the threat is).  And then there
              was a threat from Brett that kchang may violate the not-a-hoser
              rule.  It is only in a *later* email that the hoser threat was
              removed in a "clarification".
              \_ even if I was the "*one*" root person who said this, I
                 am of the general impression that others on root felt that
                 it was a reasonable approach to take. --Jon
                 \_ Well, you and others on root may have felt that.  However,
                    I don't know that from reading the email kchang posted.
                    In that email, it seems quite clear that it was the
                    request of both the politburo and the root staff (as a
                    body) that the attribution function be turned off.  Does
                    kchang have a good enough pulse on the mood of root staff
                    to be able to infer that that position is not final,
                    to be able to infer that that request is not final,
                    despite the letter of the email?  Where is Carmac when
                    you need him?
              \_ It sounds like we agree.  Politburo voted to make a non-
                 threatening request.  Brett sent out a threatening request,
                 misleadingly presenting jon's and his own opinions (which
                 I agree are worth a lot less than a politburo decision)
                 as official.  Politburo is to blame for lots of things,
                 but I don't think this is one of them. -pp
                 \_ no name, no weight. Your post will be ignored.
                 \_ Would you plese show me where in
           says that
                    the politburo "specifically said that they weren't
                    going to sorry him or anything if he refused" per your
                    original claim?
           \_ BTW, the time line isn't clear.  It is clear that Brett
              threatened kchang with hoserfication.  It is also clear that
              the hoserfication threat was later removed in a clarification.
              When did the politburo had the finding that kchang was not being
              a hoser?  Was it before Brett's threat, and therefore Brett
              had no grounds for his threat?  Was it after the threat, so
              Brett thought he could legitimately threaten?  Is misrepresenting
              the opinion of the politburo in an official communication a
              sorryable offense?
        \_ As amckee explained it, "[the CSUA] is not a democracy.  We're
           [the Politburo] democratically elected, but once in office we have
           near complete authority to implement the policies we see fit.
           Think communist russia, not democratic greece."   They are under
           no obligation to consider alternative points of view, and apparently
           they have no inclination to do so in any case.
           \- ObStarttheOutOfContextTimer
           \_ Time for another soda alias, keystone-kop@soda: amckee
              \_ Wouldn't that be kritical-keystone-kasset?
                \_ I nominate IWillBlackListYou for greatest troll
                   of all time.
                   \_ I dunno, it's got pretty stiff competition: GUN DUEL
                      \_ Yeah--that one worked perfectly.  -John
                         \_ That was brilliant. Did the perpetrator (who
                            should be proud of their handiwork, I think)
                            ever come forward? -- ulysses
                            \_ It was Mark Felt.  -John
                            \_ It was I.
        \_ So besides being ticked off by the tone of the email, what is
           kchang's reason for not putting up the disclaimer and saving all
           of us eyestrain from reading an evergrowing motd?
           \_ kchang is under no obligation to provide the MOTD threading
              service.  He did it as a favor, and I assume he no longer feels
              a desire to do favors for the current regime.
              \_ We need a regime change. The current administration is as
                 compentent and likeable as the Bush administration.
                 Oh and if you ever find out who I am, please don't
                 squish me.                             -scared poster
                 \_ The current regime has not invaded any other campus
                    groups unilaterally for no reason afaik.
                    \_ I predict that if they did that, alumni support
                       would increase, not decrease.
        \_ Maybe politburo should start drafting these things as a
           committe instead of delegating people to do it.  You guys keep
           putting your collective foot in your mouth. -jrleek
        \_ Come back to the five and dime, Kevin Chang, Kevin Chang....
2005/10/26-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40276 Activity:low
10/26   emarkp, for a Mormon, you have a serious attitude problem.
        ilyas and aaron stopped posting and have moved on with their
        lives. There is life outside motd, like bible study or something
        much more constructive. Get a fucking life you fucking self
        righteous nut. This is the last time I'm posting on motd.
        \_ Good riddance. -emarkp
        \_ Good riddance.  I think anonymous trolls like you who call out
           people by name are the scourge of motd.  I'd be happy to discuss
           what you think my "attitude" problem is.  You even have my email
           address.  Otherwise, it's prbobably a very good thing that you're
           bowing out of motd. -emarkp
        \_ Sheesh.  I've been posting to the motd and walling for the better
           part of 15 years and in all that time I've never been threatened
           or insulted to any kind of level that bothers me much, even by
           people who obviously hold opposite viewpoints on a wide variety
           of topics and total freaks like dickylee.  In fact, I believe motd
           and wall have actually become much more civil over time, probably
           because of the higher average age/maturity of the contributors.
           Maybe people should consider upgrading to a thicker skin.  If you
           can't take the heat, stay off of the motd, so I agree with emarkp
           here ... -eric
           \_ You must be /this/ tall to ride the motd. Parental guidance
              \_ I am /that/ tall, and I've been on nearly as long as ERic,
                 and I completely agree. --erikred
                 \_ eric or ERic? Because I'm eric not ERic -eric
                    \_ whoops, sorry. I meant ERic. mistaken identity. -erikred
                        \_ You said ERic and meant ERic and that's mistaken
                           \_ Are two people named "Eric" having a debate about
                              a third person named "Eric", or am I going slowly
                           \_ I hate you people....I really, really do.
                                                             -confused sodan
                                \_ Sigh it's not complicated.  You see:
                                   eric == eric@soda
                                   ERic == mehlhaff@soda
                                   erik == erikred@soda
                                   Since I wrote the bit above I'm confused why
                                   he talks about ERic when that's not me.
                                   -eric (the one true eric)

                 \_ Then we agree to agree.
        \_ i think there's just one guy who trolls specifically like this.
           anyone know who it is?  is it someone posting via an outside-soda
           \_ It's kchang.  -tom
              \_ is it kchang or a kchang-owned process that someone else used
                 to troll?
                 \_ My assessment of it being kchang has nothing to do with
                    idle times or running processes.  -tom
                    \_ yes we know, you've been sniffing the engineering
                       network for quite some time now, you phreak.
                    \_ Yes, tom knows all and sees all. -emarkp
                       \_ I just put the stones inside my magic hat and
                          it came to me.
                          I really don't think there are a large number of
                          schizophrenic stalkers obsessed with who is
                          posting what on the MOTD.  -tom
                          \_ tom, I don't want to know anything about your
                             stones. -emarkp
2005/10/26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40271 Activity:high 76%like:40277
10/25   To Politburo:
        The next time you decide to limit or modify a CSUA-wide feature, can
                                                      \_ It wasn't a CSUA-wide
                                                         feature.  It was a
                                                         www-wide feature.
                                                         \_ You are splitting
        you please please please consult motd or a well-populated mailing
        list first, you know, just to get the popular opinion?  Thanks.
        -soda user
        \_ Politburo voted to *ask* kchang to turn off the attribution
           in KAIS MOTD, and specifically said that they weren't going
           to sorry him or anything if he refused.  Read Brett's message
           carefully: the first paragraph is from politburo, the second
           is the opinion of one random person on root, and the third is
           from Brett personally.
           \_ Nice revisionist history.  Politburo and root staff as bodies
              asked kchang to turn off attribution.  One staff member (turns
              out to be Jon) said adding a disclaimer would be sufficient.
              (BTW, in my universe, the word of one root staff member is
              worth much less the the combined opinion of the politburo and
              the root staff.  Perhaps it is different in your universe.)
              There was a threat of account shut down if kchang does not reply
              (not clear who the source of the threat is).  And then there
              was a threat from Brett that kchang may violate the not-a-hoser
              rule.  It is only in a *later* email that the hoser threat was
              removed in a "clarification".
           \_ BTW, the time line isn't clear.  It is clear that Brett
              threatened kchang with hoserfication.  It is also clear that
              the hoserfication threat was later removed in a clarification.
              When did the politburo had the finding that kchang was not being
              a hoser?  Was it before Brett's threat, and therefore Brett
              had no grounds for his threat?  Was it after the threat, so
              Brett thought he could legitimately threaten?  Is misrepresenting
              the opinion of the politburo in an official communication a
              sorryable offense?
        \_ As amckee explained it, "[the CSUA] is not a democracy.  We're
           [the Politburo] democratically elected, but once in office we have
           near complete authority to implement the policies we see fit.
           Think communist russia, not democratic greece."   They are under
           no obligation to consider alternative points of view, and apparently
           they have no inclination to do so in any case.
           \- ObStarttheOutOfContextTimer
           \_ Time for another soda alias, keystone-kop@soda: amckee
              \_ Wouldn't that be kritical-keystone-kasset?
                \_ I nominate IWillBlackListYou for greatest troll
                   of all time.
                   \_ I dunno, it's got pretty stiff competition: GUN DUEL
                      \_ Yeah--that one worked perfectly.  -John
        \_ So besides being ticked off by the tone of the email, what is
           kchang's reason for not putting up the disclaimer and saving all
           of us eyestrain from reading an evergrowing motd?
           \_ kchang is under no obligation to provide the MOTD threading
              service.  He did it as a favor, and I assume he no longer feels
              a desire to do favors for the current regime.
        \_ Maybe politburo should start drafting these things as a
           committe instead of delegating people to do it.  You guys keep
           putting your collective foot in your mouth. -jrleek
        \_ Come back to the five and dime, Kevin Chang, Kevin Chang....
2005/10/25-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40269 Activity:high
        \_ I suggest that various members of root staff and/or politburo
           are violating the "not being a hoser" clause by sending such
           a stupid message and shutting down a useful service.
           \_ root/politburo had only requested that kchang remove the
              faulty attribution feature. I think kchang took down the
              rest of it all on his own.
           \_ root/politburo clarified that the request was only for
              the removal of the faulty attribution feature.
              \_ politburo wields a big sword in front of kchang and
                 tells him to take out 24HourDiff, then asks him to
                 be nice and put back a useful archiver service.
                 You honestly think that after wielding your
                 big sword [and causing resentment], that he's going to
                 be nice to you again? You fucking fresh politburo
                 virgins just don't understand basic psychology.
                 \_ Inconceivable!  amckee has managed projects with 30
                    engineers flung across the globe (though we were never
                    told why those engineers felt the need to flee), and the
                    the Psychology Dept has classified him as a Critical
                    Psycho Asset.  How can he not know basic psychology?
                    This is in all ways inconceivable.
                    \_ I do not think that word means what you think it means
              \_ It was still an stupid message. What's with the vague
                 innuendo? What's with the idiotic requirement in the
                 first place? Why is energy being spent on that? (Also,
                 the thing about not being a hoser basically suggests he had
                 to shut it down.)
                 \_ Well, amckee wrongly sorried someone based on kchang's
                    attribution.  That must be immensely embarrassing for
                    amckee personally and the politburo in general.  Of course
                    they want to shut it down.  In fact, isn't amckee the
                    only documented case of someone actually doing bad
                    things (rather than merely threatening to do bad things)
                    based on kchang's attribution?
                    \_ I suspect part of the rationale is that, by identifying
                       users this way, it also opens up the door for
                       persecution of individuals that post stuff that people
                       don't find palatable for whatever reason.  I'm just
                       guessing about that, though, based on hearsay that
                       I've heard.  I haven't had a chance to decide for
                       myself whether this is really reasonable.  *shrug*
                       \_ The biggest issue with the attribution feature
                       \_ The biggest problem with the attribution feature
                          is the fact that it was not reliable. Stating
                          as fact to the world that "baz wrote this", when
                          in fact it was written by foo is a problem.
                       \_ But you have to respect how this was handled (sarcasm)
                          No prior discussion a very widely used facility is
                          is going to be forceably shut down and then
                          "Last minute email from root ..."
                       \_ But you have to respect how this was handled
                          (sarcasm) No prior discussion a very widely
                          used facility is is going to be forceably
                          shut down and then "Last minute email from
                          root ..."
                          What does this refer to: "we don't think this
                          is a sorryable offense"?  Are you so delusional
                          to think you could have sorried him for running
                          it in the first place (Politburo edicts now may have
                          retroactive liability?) or that if he didn't
                          comply then you would not have sorried him?
                          Was this an "order" on pain on being sorried or
                          was it a request?  Is the politburo interested in
                          hearing requests to reactivate the service?
                          Thanks for the detailed coverage of the Video Game
                          Tournament though.
                          \_ your facts are confused.
                          \_ your facts are confused. -brett
                             \- is this kinda like how i took things
                                out of context when i provided links
                                to the entire paper trail? maybe you
                                can clarify? It seems the the PP
                                is asking for clarification.
                                "good night and good luck" --psb
                          \_ Uhm, are you addressing me or politburo?  I'm
                             just taking a shot in the dark about why this
                             service is being blamed.  If you're addressing me
                             then your hostility is very very misplaced.
                             \_ I would say he is speaking of the action by
                                Politburo. -someone else
                          \_ Get your facts straight.
        \_ I agree with previous poster who says that process has been
           bungled.  There could have been plenty of discussion from soda
           users via motd or listserv on what to do (if anything) about
           kchang's logging feature, but this resource was not consulted.
           This is the power of Politburo, but Politburo exercised this
           power ... unwisely in this case.
        \_ he was asked merely to put up a disclaimer about the inherent
           inaccuracy of his system.  he chose instead to shut it down.
           \_ kchang was asked twice to remove a feature.  kchang took
              down his motd site. It was clarified by mrauser that
              "Your welcome to turn it back on, but it would be nice
              if you disabled the feature that attributed each post
              to whomever you thought made it" kchang hasn't posted
              the clarification on his website. -brett
              \_ "[T]here is doubt regarding whether your use of CSUA
                 resources violates the 'not being a hoser' clause of the
                 CSUA policy" clearly sounds like a threat.  Perhaps it is
                 unreasonable to expect kchang to play nice after being
                 \_ [brett's clarification removed after I removed the point
                    requiring clarification]
                    \-So the position is "The pburo believes it is acceptable
                      for mr kchang to include a disclaimer about the accuracy
                      of the attributions and operate as before"?
                      (If you are replying to clarify, and are a root/pburo
                      person, it would be helpful if you would sign your name,
                      for obvious reasons). --psb
                      \_ I'm not a politburrito (anymore, thank god), but
                         given that there's not really anything keeping
                         someone else from doing this sort of thing, I don't
                         see the point in telling kchang or anyone else not
                         to do this.  Asking to take into consideration its
                         effects on motd as a forum (and possibly turn it off)?
                         Sure.  Personally, I draw a line at not noting
                         the inherent inaccuracy of this system.  While
                         amckee should have known better anyway, I think
                         it's pretty lame to attribute posts to people
                         based on circumstantial information without noting
                         that the conclusions are circumstancial too --Jon
              \_ Clarification please.  Many of us have our personal
                 attribution scripts.  Is it acceptable for us to run them?
                 Is it acceptable for kchang to release his scripts so other
                 people can run them?  Strictly for each runner's personal
                 use and entertainment, of course.
                 \_ It's one thing to come to your own conclusions about
                    who wrote what, based on whatever methods you chose,
                    whether it be ps(1) info, w, fstat, the phase of the
                    moon, reading /dev/random, whatever.  It's another to
                    tell others your conclusions ala KAIS without at least
                    letting others know how reliable your conclusions are
                    and how reliable your methods are. --Jon
                    \_ While all answers are replies, not all replies are
                       answers.  I asked very specific questions, and I
                       am really look for answers, and not just replies.
                       Are we allowed to run our own scripts?  Are we allowed
                       to run kchang's scripts, should he choose to release
                       them?  -pp
                       \_ I think it's clear you're welcome to run anything
                          you like for your own personal use.  You're being
                          asked not to take that same unreliable information
                          and post it to the public as if it was a source of
                          truth without noting it isn't reliable and is just
                          a poor guess at best.  Having been accused of
                          posting things by other people when I wasn't even
                          around and then seeing my name next to some garbage
                          later on a public website is just plain wrong.
                          I've had 'magical kchang quality scripts' for years
                          before he started logging&attributing in public.
                          I have *never* used those scripts to "out" anyone.
                          They can't be 100% reliable and it's distasteful
                          and a gauche to do so anyway.
                          \_ Amusing, I had done the same thing. I figured
                             out who the anonymous Freeper was, but just\
                             kept it to myself. -ausman
                             out who the anonymous Freeper was, but just
                             kept it to myself. -ausman
                    \_ Are we talking about the same Berkeley students who are
                       supposed to be semi-intelligent enough to understand
                       that (a) something like motd posting attribution is
                       trivial and irrelevant (IT'S THE FUCKING MOTD, FFS) and
                       (b) they shouldn't necessarily take what an off-site
                       resource says at total 100% religious face value?  -John
                       \_ it isn't just the motd.  it is posted on a public
                          website as if it was truth.  just because you don't
                          care doesn't mean others don't or that their opinions
                          on the subject of being falsely attributed to some
                          really horrendous things don't count.
                          \_ I read it on the Internet, so it must be true.  I
                             guess I haven't been in the US for a while, so I
                             forgot how thin-skinned and whiny people are.
                             Give me a fucking break.  -John
                       \_ they've gotten dumber since you left, Fuzzy.
                          that, and I making a distinction, even if it ends
                          an irrelevant one.  -Jon
                          \_ Just because people have become dumber doesn't
                             mean you have to pander to them.  -John
                             \_ in the end, it's not about them, but about
                                people who wrongly (knowingly or uncaringly)
                                attribute actions to others on false grounds
                 \- hey it's like FBI v. NWA again!
                   (see last paragraph)
                       them?  Yes, I am aware there would be a scalability
                       problem. -pp
                                \_ It's common knowledge that kchang's toys
                                   \_ I think kchang knows that his results
                                      are inherently not accurate.  I know
                                      you and I know.   I wouldn't call that
                                      "common knowledge".  --Jon
                                   are inaccurate, so I don't think you can
                                   claim he's actively "attributing actions"
                                   uncaringly, just that his scripts are bad.
                                   Are you claiming he did so knowingly and
                                   intentionally?  Because then politburo
                                   should come out and say so.  -John
                                   \_ I think kchang knows that his results
                                      are inherently not accurate.  I know
                                      you and I know.   I wouldn't call that
                                      "common knowledge".  --Jon
                                   \_ So anyone who finds my name incorrectly
                                      associated with some garbage at his log
                                      will know his toy is inaccurate and not
                                      assume I wrote something that has my
                                      name next to it?  I've seen the stuff
                                      come out in search engines and not all
                                      of us use a name like "John" that will
                                      get 8 zillion hits.  No, you don't think
                                      some person doing a background check will
                                      know or care that it is wrong.  They will
                                      see it and take it at face value and that
                                      is far more wrong than him turning off
                                      his toy or at a minimum making it loud
                                      and clear on each page that his
                                      attributions are no better than random
                                      spew and should not be taken seriously.
                                      \_ And then they will take my kitten away
                                         and make me do the dishes and I won't
                                         be able to go to all the kewl places
                                         because everyone will hate me...
                                         Chill out dude. It's the motd and
                                         there is a disclaimer. If you're
                                         afraid of being tracked for your
                                         beliefs and/or quirks, don't post.
                                         \_ Missing point: I didn't post but
                                            got attributed anyway.
                                            \_ Just disclaim it. Like everyone
                                               in BushCo does. Point to
                                               disclaimer. If getting accused
                                               of doing something offensive
                                               on the net is going to ruin
                                               your future life, your
                                               life really sucks.
                                               \_ You rarely get a chance to
                                                  disclaim anything.  No one
                                                  is going to tell you why
                                                  they made a decision.  As
                                                  far as my life/career, etc,
                                                  you have no clue.  Either
                                                  way, great life or bad, I
                                                  shouldn't get smeared by a
                                                  broken script even if it had
                                                  zero effect on my life.
                                                  \_ So you're worried a
                                                     script will randomly ID
                                                     you as a poster of an
                                                     offensive item even if
                                                     you never post. As much as
                                                     I admire your paranoia, I
                                                     think you're nuts. You
                                                     need to ask root to delete
                                                     your account now just to
                                                     be super safe.
                                      \_ If you're going to go work at a place
                                         that does background checks by
                                         browsing hozerish archives of student
                                         bbs, I am speechless, and I am sorry
                                         at how you have thrown away a good
                                         Cal education.  -John
                                         \_ Nice, also not your place to
                                            determine what sort of place might
                                            read what and what it looks like
                                            in a search engine to an outside
                                            investigator.  When you provide
                                            all of us a dream job with no
                                            background checks and we choose to
                                            go elsewhere, then we'll talk.
                                            \_ I like killin' babies. -hmiers
                                               \_ All hail the power of the
                                                  ideologues to locate this
                                                  misattributed quote to bring
                                                  down a USSC nominee!
                                            \_ So the rest of the world should
                                               adapt itself to your lack of
                                               career clue?  Get over yourself.
                                               Nobody's interested that you
                                               fiddle litle boys.  I guess
                                               turning this off REMOVES ALL
                                               POSSIBILITY OF ANYONE PUBLICLY
                                               SLANDERING YOU!  -John
                                               \_ I'm glad you are Knower Of
                                                  All.  I feel better now that
                                                  you put up a straw man and
                                                  knocked it down for me.
                                                  \_ Am I wrong?  -John
           \_ Well, no.  "The CSUA Politburo and members of Root Staff
              request that you [kchang] remove the attribution feature
              from your KAIS MOTD."  *One* member of root staff wrote
              that a disclaimer is sufficient in lieu of a full shut
              down, but it seems clear the politburo and the root staff
              as full bodies wanted the service shut down.
              \_ Since I'm sick of reading datasheets, I'll keep on posting.
                 That "*one* member of root staff" was me. --Jon
                          in fact it was written by foo is the issue.
           \_ Thanks for the clarification. -brett
              \- hey it's like FBI v. NWA again!
                 (see last paragraph)
                 \_ Which is a reasonable request.  kchang is just being a
                    baby. -emarkp
                    \_ It was phrased as a threat.  As little respect as I have
                       for kchang, he never claimed his toys were
                       authoritative.  The people being babies here are the
                       ones whining about "oh n0es, bad things are being
                       attributed to me on the internet!"  Whatever.  Rampant
                       whiny stupidity just pisses me off.  -John
                       \_ It wasn't the first time someone had complained about
                          the inaccuracy of his attributions.  His rampant
                          whiny arrogance pissed me off. -emarkp
                          \_ Care to explain why he is whiny and arrogant?
                          \_ Fair enough--like I said.  Anyway, re-posting
                             wall & motd and making false attributions (or
                             b.s. ones and claiming they're authoritative)
                             doesn't require csua membership.  Note
                             finger?lwall ...  -John
                             \_ Forgeries (signing a post with someone
                                else's name) are an obvious possibility
                                of (semi)anonymous things like motd.
                                Saying that you've determined who made
                                a post to motd without saying how certain
                                or uncertain you are is something else.
                    \_ It's usually not considered good etiquette to piss on
                       people who provide a useful service for free.
                       All non-morons knew the vageries involved in the
                       attribution functionality and took them with a grain
                       of salt. I'm pretty sympathetic to kchang here.
                       Maybe he could create a version of KAIS MOTD that
                       requires authetentication so it it so longer
                       requires authentication so it would no longer
                       open to the world at large.
                       \_ like
2005/10/25-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40262 Activity:low
10/25   Did amckee ever apologize to anyone? Is he squished yet?
        \_ Read the minutes sometime.
        \_ From the minutes, amckee did not apologize.
           He resigned.  But, according to the minutes, he was persuaded by
           those at the meeting to un-resign.
           Personally I still think an apology is in order, but whatever.
           \_ He was also removed from root, and didn't ask to be reinstated.
           \_ I'm sorry you're ugly.
           \_ Did amckee explain why he decided to resign?  That's not in
              the minutes either.  Since most CSUA members do not read motd,
              they have to reply on the minutes for an explanation of what
              they have to rely on the minutes for an explanation of what
              \_ Irritating alumni can make kitchen hot.
                 \_ Do not meddle in the affairs of alumni, for they are
                    subtle and quick to anger?
                    \_ Half right.
                       \_ He should apologize to the people he sorried or
                          threatened to sorry.  How many people is that?
                          \_ I never intended to sorry that user, Partha S.
                                \- who is the "I" here? --psb
                             \_ It's like the CSUA's own Watergate.  An Enemies
                                List,  the Saturday Night Massacre, the missing
                                email from the psb-politburo exchange, the
                                Vice-Presidential Pardon, and a tainted
                                Imperial Presidency and Cabinet.
                                \_ Why can't it be more like Monicagate, at
                                   least that involved a blowjob.
                                \_ No, Watergate was serious.  This is just,
                                   in the words of a great wise man whose name
                                   is lost to the sands of time,
                                   "U S0 == TeH GHEI, D0)D."  -John
                                   \_ Obviously it's not a "national nightmare"
                                      of Watergate proportions and perhaps
                                      appropriately it ends [although I suppose
                                      "end" may be premature] with humiliation
                                      rather than a convinction, but there is
                                      a "civics lecture" aspect to this, sort
                                      of like there is to the other sorry saga
                                      of Harriet Miers. Maybe Bushco will
                                      suggest character assassinating her is
                                      of HARRIET THE JUDGE. Maybe BUSHCO will
                                      suggest CHARACTER ASSASSINATING her is
                                      like attacking the govt and is akin to
                                      terrorism. (re: humiliation ... I assume
                                      amckee resigned out of a sense of
                                      TERRORISM. (re: humiliation ... I assume
                                      mr. amckee resigned out of a sense of
                                      shame, rather than needing to spend more
                                      time with say Arabian Horses. my apologies
                                      if he was really resigned for other
                                      personal reasons such as illness.)
                                      time with say Arabian Horses. my
                                      apologies if he was really resigned for
                                      other personal reasons such as illness.)
                                      \_ The only lesson in this is about
                                         stupid people and small-organization
                                         politics.  -John
                                      of HARRIET THE JUDGE. Maybe BUSHCO will
                                      suggest CHARACTER ASSASSINATING her is
                                      like attacking the LEAST DANGEROUS
                                      BRANCH of the govt and is akin to
                                      personal reasons such as illness.) --psb
2005/10/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40173 Activity:high
10/18   The following people attended politburo: bonnie, awall, scarr,
        myungk, mconst, amckee, mrauser, mbh, geordan, jon, ajani, njh,
        mikeh, vadim, linxu. Who is a student and who is an alum?

< Politburo Approved for YOUR safety! >
        \   ^__^
         \  (xx)\_______
            (__)\       )\/\
             U  ||----w |
                ||     ||
        \_ Students: bonnie, awall, scarr, mkim (aka myungk), amckee,
                     mrauser, mbh, linxu, rfm (not mentioned above).
        \_ Students: bonnie, awall, scarr, myungk, amckee, mrauser, mbh, linxu.
        \_ Students: bonnie, awall, scarr, mkim (aka myungk), amckee, mrauser,
                     mbh, linxu, rfm (not mentioned above).
           Staff: jon, mikeh, vadim.
           Neither: mconst, geordan, ajani, njh.  --mconst
        \_ bonnie, awall, amckee, mrauser, mbh, linxu are students.
           the rest are alumns. - linxu
           \_ Another newer member rfm was there also, he just wasn't in
              the minutes. -mrauser
        \_ So does the Politburo have a "vision thing" for the CSUA?

< Politburo Approved for YOUR safety! >
        \   ^__^
         \  (xx)\_______
            (__)\       )\/\
             U  ||----w |
                ||     ||
\_ Say it with me:  I will respect the politburo's authoritay!
        \_ Was there a politburo meeting?  Any news to report?
           \_ Yes. Ruling Soda With An Iron Fist!
           \_ The official minutes are at  Quick summary:
              the meeting was long and well-attended.  amckee resigned, but by
              the end of the meeting pretty much everyone agreed to reinstate
              him (without root).  Politburo decided not to log the motd, at
              least for the time being, and will actually try to make it more
              anonymous.  There's now an explicit policy that root should ask
              politburo before sorrying someone, except for account breakins
              and similar emergency stuff.  --mconst
              \_ The minutes are particularly weak on explaining the discussion
                 about the motd.  Basically it was decided that logging it or
                 moving it to somewhere else would decrease the possible use-
                 fulness to new students.  We proposed instead to try and
                 do something which would improve the overall quality of the
                 motd and return it more to its original purpose, an anonymous
                 discussion.  It was proposed we would create a program, much
                 like /csua/bin/motdedit that would allow a user near total
                 anonimity (or in the words of Vadim "we can make it really
                 hard to figure out who posted") when editing motd.  In theory,
                 this will reduce the amount of personal attacks and trolling
                 in general.  I hope this clears up the current course we are
                 taking in regards to the motd. -mrauser
                 \_ The minutes are weak on the exact course of discussion
                    because if I write too much, then people will think
                    things that are just hypothetical or randomly proposed
                    are under serious consideration. -linxu
                 \_ I don't think it's accurate to say that the motd's original
                    purpose was to be anonymous.  In the early days, pretty
                    much everyone signed their names.  It turned out to be
                    anonymous simply because it was a world-writable file,
                    so it attracted people who didn't want to be
                    identifiable.  -tom
                    \_ How long was it before, say, half the posts were
                       no longer signed?  (honestly, just curious)     -mice
                       \_ I don't really recall, but trolling didn't take
                          over until the mid to late 90s.  -tom
                          \_ Interesting. What happened in the mid to late
                             90s that made people want to troll? And who
                             do you think is the best troller of all time?
                             \_ I think the main thing was one or two dipwads
                                (reiffin and ecchang) realized they could
                                get away with saying just about anything,
                                and get more response to their trolls than
                                they would in any forum which attached a
                                name to their comments (because they would
                                quickly be identified as cranks otherwise).
                                [Funny that this keeps being deleted]  -tom
                                \_ no, it is ridiculous that you'd feel the
                                   need to post such trash based on your broken
                                   de-anon scripts, especially in the context
                                   of the ongoing "let's make the motd not
                                   suck" discussions ongoing.  there is no need
                                   for this.
                                   \_ Oh, come on; it's established fact that
                                      both of those guys are trollers, and
                                      also dipwads.  Sorry to have to call
                                      you out, anonymous coward.  -tom
                                      \_ Seriously, get over it.  We just got
                                         through a whole thing about bad
                                         logging and bad blood in the csua.
                                         Why do you insist on doing this?  Let
                                         it go.
                                         \_ I'm just explaining how the MOTD
                                            turned from a useful resource
                                            where pretty much everyone signed
                                            their name, into a cesspool filled
                                            with anonymous cowards like you.
                                            \_ No, you're making into that very
                                               cesspool you claim to not like.
                                               Signing or not signing made no
                                               difference.  In some ways it
                                               made it worse.  Case in point:
                                               you're signing your vicious
                                               petty little attack right now.
                                               \- holube is an endangered
                                                  species and removing his
                                                  cesspool habitat violates
                                                  the endangered species act
                                            \_ The motd has always been a den
                                               of iniquity. Perhaps in your
                                               deluded memories it was all
                                               sweetness and light, but as with
                                               many free and open forums, it
                                               lost that innocence long, long
                                               ago. (unlike most sodans)
                                               \_ I think the MOTD has always
                                                  beeen sardonic and sarcastic,
                                                  but I don't think it
                                                  was actively hostile.  -tom
                             \_ tjb is the best troller of all time
                             \_ Honestly? The Clinton presidency. It got ugly.
                    \_ How far back was 'original', anyway? -gm
                       \_ I believe /etc/motd was first made world-writable
                          on the original Apollo, which would mean 1988 or
                          so.  -tom
                          \- I dont think there was an explicit view
                             of anonymity when it was decided to create
                             the motd.public either, but I think if you
                             would ask people to pick what is more important:
                             A: a forum where people are free to discuss
                                whatever they want ... we'll call this the
                                "liberty position"
                             B: fostering a certain atmosphere/culture/
                                environment ... let's call that "a vision
                                of the good"
                             \_ I think the main thing was one or two dipwads
                                (reiffin and ecchang) realized they could
                                get away with saying just about anything,
                                and get more response to their trolls than
                                they would in any forum which attached a
                                name to their comments (because they would
                                quickly be identified as cranks otherwise).
                             I think many people would advocate implementing A
                             and **hoping*for*B**. However, I am not defending
                             I think many people would advocate implementing
                             A and hoping for B. However, I am not defending
                             this on "orginalist" grounds, but I think that
                             is a superior position for other reasons
                             [like I think political speech should get higher
                             protection than commercial speech, for reasons
                             other than "what would the founders do"].
                             I do recognize certain issues like threats and
                             harassment, "structural attacks" [writing a
                             cronjob to munge or destroy the motd], mis-
                             cronjob to munge or destroy the MOTD], mis-
                             attributing links to the danhimal or others
                             etc complicate the question. But I still think
                             at this point A > B. ok tnx. --ANONYMOUS
                             etc complicate the question, but I still think
                             at this point A > B. ok tnx. --THE DANHIMAL
                             at this point A > B. ok tnx. --ANONYMOUS
                                \_ "vision of the good?"  who *are* you??
                                   \- i am not sure what your point/implication
                                      is but this is sort of in the spirit
                                      of how some terms are used in philosophy.
                                      i cannot go into detail about this in
                                      the MOTD but you can search the WEEB
                                      for expressions like ("priority of
                                      right over [the] good" rawls kant
                                      philosophy liberty). there is some
                                      discussion of this at:
                                     or look for "right over the good" at
                                     if you have access to JSTOR you may be
                                     able to find: Rawls J: "The Priority of
                                     Right and Ideas of the Good." which is an
                                     important paper. At least that is what I
                                     learned in the rhetoric class I took on
                                     amckee's advice. --ANON
                                     \_ did psb ever take a class other than
                                        freshman rhetoric?  You can log a forum
                                        and still have people free to say
                                        what they want.  -tom
                                        \_ I don't agree. Some of the truly
                                           lame/offensive arguments would
                                           likely not be made in a non-anon
                                           forum b/c the speaker may self
                                           censor to avoid public ridicule.
                                           If the primary concern is the
                                           free discussion of all ideas
                                           regardless of how lame or offen-
                                           sive, then the potential that
                                           some ideas will not be presented
                                           dictates that the forum be anon.
                                           If no value is attached to lame
                                           or offensive ideas, then there
                                           is no reason not to log.
                                           \_ There are plenty of lame ideas
                                              posted in non-anonymous forums.
                                           \_ There are plenty of lame
                                              ideas posted in non-anonymous
                                                \_ Could tom be getting
                                              \_ Now if you were to
                                                 give the example of
                                                 usenet I'd be tempted
                                                 to agree w/ you.
              \_ Did amckee admit to wrongdoing and issue an apology as part
                 of his resignation?  Put another way, did amckee explain why
                 he resigned as president?  The minutes are skimpy on this.
           \- Perhaps, but the vocal disapproval of the alumni has changed
              some of the poltiburo's beliefs on what the vision should
              be and how it should be achieved. -linxu
2005/10/18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40166 Activity:very high
< Politburo Approved for YOUR safety! >
        \   ^__^
         \  (xx)\_______
            (__)\       )\/\
             U  ||----w |
                ||     ||
\_ Say it with me:  I will respect the politburo's authoritay!
        \_ Was there a politburo meeting?  Any news to report?
           \_ The meeting was long and well-attended.  amckee resigned, but by
           \_ Yes. Ruling Soda With An Iron Fist!
           \_ The official minutes are at  Quick summary:
              the meeting was long and well-attended.  amckee resigned, but by
              the end of the meeting pretty much everyone agreed to reinstate
              him (without root).  Politburo decided not to log the motd, at
              least for the time being, and will actually try to make the motd
              more anonymous.  There's now an explicit policy that root should
              ask politburo before sorrying someone, except for account
              breakins and similar emergency stuff.  The official minutes
              are in /csua/pub/minutes/F2005/20051017.politburo.  --mconst
              least for the time being, and will actually try to make it more
              anonymous.  There's now an explicit policy that root should ask
              politburo before sorrying someone, except for account breakins
              and similar emergency stuff.  --mconst
              \_ The minutes are particularly weak on explaining the discussion
                 about the motd.  Basically it was decided that logging it or
                 moving it to somewhere else would decrease the possible use-
                 fulness to new students.  We proposed instead to try and
                 do something which would improve the overall quality of the
                 motd and return it more to its original purpose, an anonymous
                 discussion.  It was proposed we would create a program, much
                 like /csua/bin/motdedit that would allow a user near total
                 anonimity (or in the words of Vadim "we can make it really
                 hard to figure out who posted") when editing motd.  In theory,
                 this will reduce the amount of personal attacks and trolling
                 in general.  I hope this clears up the current course we are
                 taking in regards to the motd. -mrauser
                 \_ I don't think it's accurate to say that the motd's original
                    purpose was to be anonymous.  In the early days, pretty
                    much everyone signed their names.  It turned out to be
                    anonymous simply because it was a world-writable file,
                    so it attracted people who didn't want to be
                    identifiable.  -tom
                    \_ How long was it before, say, half the posts were
                       no longer signed?  (honestly, just curious)     -mice
                       \_ I don't really recall, but trolling didn't take
                          over until the mid to late 90s.  -tom
                    \_ How far back was 'original', anyway? -gm
                       \_ I believe /etc/motd was first made world-writable
                          on the original Apollo, which would mean 1988 or
                          so.  -tom
2005/10/18-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40151 Activity:nil
10/18   After motd is successfully Christianized, Conservatized,
        and jrleeked, let's all migrate to
        \_ We can just use /csua/tmp/motd*
        \_ We can just use /csua/tmp/motd.sexfarm
2005/10/17-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40141 Activity:nil
10/17   Hi motd and Politburo:
        Is it okay to post on all e-mail exchanges between psb
        and cc'd to {politburo,csua}
        I am specifically excluding private messages sent between psb and
        individual Politburo members with no cc's to the above e-mail
        addresses.  Thanks.
        If you want me to e-mail with this request
        instead of asking on motd, please go ahead and post that.
        \- BTW, it's ok with me.  BTW, is this a "sorryable" offense now?
           Is moderated now? --psb
2005/10/16-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40127 Activity:moderate
10/16   Dear danh, geordan, psb, peterl, tse, lafe, mice, john, and many
        others who have been posting on motd. I'd suggest you guys stop
        publicly criticizing amckee because he has no problem squishing
        all of you. I'd take his threat seriously as he already squished
        someone who threatened to blacklist him at HRs and headhunters
        throughout Silicon Valley. I for one will stop saying anything
        bad on motd because I value my soda account.    -fearful alumus
        \_ Troll troll troll your boat  -John
        \_ funny, these are among the members who have consistently
           provided the most support when I've ran into horrible technical
           problems during the course of my work and have turned to the
           motd or wall for help.  -sax
           \- I have a feeling Mr. Tse will be unavailable when the pburo
              is looking for HSPICE help or hotel recommendations on the
              Cote d'Azur. :-) --psb
              \_ 1 for 2.  No Cote d'Azur for me.  Even you should remember
                 my dislike of the French.  My advice is to go to Valencia,
                 Hotel Ad Hoc Monumental.  I can answer most questions spice
                 and verilog related though. -tse
              \_ I've evolved beyond spice and cote d'azur.  - tse
        \_ You remind me of the grad students who accuse the grad student
           union people of "intimidation" because they're annoying, and claim
           that grad students live in fear of "union intimidation tactics".
           "Union intimidation tactics" means coming by your lab and trying to
           get you to go drink coffee and hear about their union.  You only
           have to tell them to fuck off and threaten to call the cops on them
           once, and they *never* come back, and mark your entire department
           as "anti union", avoiding that whole section of the building.
           Just as blathering about a union is not "intimidation", threatening
           to turn off an email account is not a serious threat.
           Have you also started to self-censor what books you check out from
           the library because the feds might come after you?
        \_ Heh, thanks for looking out for me, man.     -mice
        \_ I think you need to relax. Nobody is going to get squished
           for their motd post without a politburo vote. -mbh, vp
           \_ Didn't amckee sorry Brett (and then had to unsorry him when it
              turns out Brett was the wrong guy)?  Did amckee manage to sorry
              the right guy eventually?
                \_ It is rather amusing that after politburo members
                   pedantically promise to be fair and impartial after
                   they possibly implement motd logging, and after
                   politburo members write, at length, about how reasonable
                   and wise they are...  one of them goes off the handle
                   and sorries someone for strange reasons.  I guess
                   sorrying someone is a lot easier than emailing someone.
                   Anyway I don't have much of anything useful to add,
                   please don't destroy the CSUA, it's been nice knowing
                   many of you. - danh
              \_ Yes, that was a mistake and amckee has acknowledged it.
                 That kind of impulsive sorrying is not the regular course
                 of action. -mbh
                 \_ What CSUA policy has the person posting about the
                    "blacklist" violated?
                     \_ None, it was just a troll -mbh
                        \- just for clarification: is the mbh position
                           "the user who posted the blacklist post should
                            not have been sorried because he was just
                            'trolling'". while the acmkee position is
                            he should have been sorried, but because we
                            do not know who it is we cannot do so, but if
                            we do discover who it is, then we will sorry
                            the user? i inquire because there are a lot of
                            thoughts attributed to "the politburo" and it
                            seems like they are not of one mind here. --psb
                            \_ I apologize I should be more clear when speaking
                               on behalf of the CSUA. psb you stated my opinion
                               clearly. That post should have read "my position
                               would be to ignore it". -mbh
                 \_ Is there an established CSUA process to sorry someone?
                    Is there an established CSUA policy to punish root staff
                    who arbitrarily sorries someone without following
                    the established process?  Is there a plan to follow
                    the established policies and punishments in this case?
                    \_ I read through the CSUA constitution and
                       /csua/adm/doc/policies, and it appears that the rules
                       are VERY non-specific, probably intentionally.  Now,
                       if you wanted a heavyweight approach to policies ...
                       \_ It seems to be up to the discretion of the
                          politburo.  I am guessing nothing will be done.
                          Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
        \_ Whatever.  I'll say whatever the hell I want.  I've made backups
           of my homedir here.  Oh noes, amckee might flip out and wield
           his AWESOME POWER and squish me.  It's fine, learn 2 govern.
           \_ You go geordan! Go kick ass the same way you kicked Susan
              Graham's ass in 164... or not. :)
              \_ Savage Susan is still terrorizing undergrads in 164?  Wow.
              \_ You make a good point.  I'm nowhere near as Powerful as
                 amckee.  That's probably why I've never been christened as
                                 a 'Critical Asset'. -geordan
                 \_ Stop it, your minority voice is gonna cause every single
                    alumni to be squished. There goes 30 years of tradition
              \_ Yes, and amckee has acknowledged the mistake. And there is no
                 'right guy' either because the post was a troll.
                 and that kind of impulsive sorrying will not happen. -mbh
        \_ I'm pretty sure I didn't actually post anything
           about amckee. --peterl
           \_ You don't have to actually post anything.  amckee just has to
              think you posted something.  And the post doesn't necessarily
              have to do with amckee; he just has to think it does. - tse
              \_ Btw, I've told all the opera companies I've sung with not
                 to hire amckee.  Yes, he has the voice of an angel, but
                 his diva 'tude and doesn't-play-nice-with-others issues
                 makes him impossible to work with.  --not-scotsman
                 \_ that's right kid! you'll never work in Broadway again.
                 \_ Was amckee a Critical Opera Asset too?
2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40123 Activity:low
10/16   How exactly did "make motd anon, semi-anon, or non-anon" turn into some
        hostile "students/politburo vs. alum" hate fest?  I keep reading stuff
        that strongly implies that "total anon motd" is the "what alums want"
        and a "logged motd (of some sort)" is what "students/politburo wants".
        This is clearly not the case.  Some alums want a totally anon motd,
        some want a semi-anon motd and others have wanted it completely
        non-anon going back many years.  Given that the vote on this vaguely
        defined motion was not unanimous in pburo and that they have "already
        spent over 50 hours" discussing and dealing with it, it seems like
        "the students/pburo" aren't of a single mind either.  This whole
        students vs alums thing is a red herring that seems intended to
        misdirect the entire non/anon motd discussion.  Unfortunately, it
        seems to have succeeded. :-(   Wake up, the strings are being pulled.
        \_ I was with you up till that last line.  Who's pulling the
           strings?  The Illuminati?
           strings?  The Illuminaiti?
           \_ It's not a conspiracy.  There's someone who wants us to not talk
              about the real issue but to babble about this us vs them,
              students vs alum nonsense.  If not we wouldn't have been
              diverted off the original topic on to this hatred garbage.
              I'm asking everyone to ignore that noise and go back to the
              real issue: the motd and how to make it not suck.
              \_ Are you saying we got Karl Roved?  --PeterM
        \_ The issue is that the politburo has decided that it wants to make
           a change (whether it was unaninmous or not is not really germane).
           There is an uproar about the change, and I am confident that 100%
           of the people who are complaining about the idea are not current
           students.  I think it is quite difficult to argue that the MOTD
           in its current state serves the CSUA's active members, and
           similarly hard to argue that the proposed change will have any
           deleterious effect on MOTD discussion.  -tom
           \_ So what does qualify for being on the motd? HW and test answers?
              Sunshine, pretty flowers, fuzzy wuzzy bunny rabbits and baby
              \_ Don't fuck wih Fuzzy Bunnies.  -John
              chicks, and meeting announcements? Does the motd get to be a
              disasterous insane and inane public forum or the same chirpy,
              go-CSUA-happy-happy-joy-joy message every day? What is the
              politburo's "vision" of the motd?
              \_ Complete non sequitur and red herring.  -tom
                 \_ Not really. If I don't want to be sorried for posting to
                    the motd, what are the rules? If there are no rules, well,
                    just say so and note that people will be sorried by fiat.
                    If you know what will best serve the active members of
                    the CSUA in the motd, I'd be happy to read it.
                    \_ How about, the exact same as the rules about being
                       sorried for walling.  It's not that complicated to
                       figure out what you should and shouldn't do.  And
                       that's completely separate from the question of
                       whether usage should be logged (as it is in every
                       other form of electronic communication).  -tom
                       \_ And the official wall rules are? And as shown over
                          the weekend, logging can lead to arbitary sorrying.
                          Changed this time, but still sets an interesting
                          precedent. What is the politburo's vision of what
                          the CSUA should be? (not really directed at tom
                          per se, but an open question)
                          \_ Actually, it was lack of logging that led to
                             arbitrary sorrying; if the MOTD were logged,
                             you would never sorry "the wrong man."  -tom
                             \_ I think it's more unchecked ego than lack
                                of logging that led to arbitrary sorrying
                                in this case.
2005/10/16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40122 Activity:low
10/15   As recent ('05) alumnus, I'm very disturbed about the tone being taken
        towards alumni by the current pburo. Is this because of bad feelings
        towards people like psb & etc for bitching about the MOTD change, or
        is it really about the mass alumni community? I found the (recent)
        alumni community to be an invaluable resource to me when I was a student;
        I even attended social functions with 'geezers' like nevman and felt
        enriched for it. I never partied with nweaver, though. Everyone is
        right about networking, but I think that the CSUA alumni community
        goes beyond that. It's just a pretty freaking awesome group of people!
        Where else could I go and have a handful of people spend three hours
        recovering my fubared laptop hdd (thanks ajani, vadim, mconst!) and
        then laugh with me at my stupidity? Current members are running the
        CSUA, no ifs or buts about it. But I hope amckee is not representative
        of the majority of pburo or current memberships when he asks "Why
        should we even allow alumni on our servers?" The whole point is that
        alumni have jobs and lives and our servers are what really creates
        the crossroads for the alumni community to flourish. Would you rather
        have irc.csua be for current csua members and make dbushoung delink
        and run an irc server for alumni? A serious schism between alumni
        and current membership strikes me as the worst thing that could come
        out of the MOTD changes, whatever happens. -jhs
        \_ I have been fortunate to have worked with several alumni, and
           almost all of these interactions have been positive and rewarding.
           The politburo, and me, have nothing but respect and admiration
           for the vast majority of alumni. Hell, we even respect psb. However,
           there is a very vocal miniority of alumni that are helping to
           derail the CSUA. As others have said, the alumni are an invaluable
           resource - for jobs, for insight, for a million things. However,
           how likely is it that the majority of them - reasonable, level-headed,
           non-trollish peoplt that they are - will look to the CSUA with
           repect, given the environment that we're seeing here in the MOTD? If
           I had a job opening, of which I've represented many in the past,
           I most certainly would not take it to an environment that appeared
           to be filled with petulant children, as I would argue we see here.
            \_ No, you'd take it to individual people whom you've seen provide
               a high signal to noise ratio compared to the petulant children.
               Trust me, people are grown-up enough to know not to rely on
               the tenor of a publicly writeable text file as a primary means
               for judging the membership of an organization.  -John
           It's not that the majority of CSUA alumni are like this, far from it,
           it's just that the vocal minority of ones that are seem to
           disproportionally represent the 'culture' of the CSUA. So yes, we're
           frustrated with some of the alumni that you see here, but that in no
           way translates to all of them. Hell, perhaps some of them would even
           come back into the fold, if they didn't think this would end up like
           some kindergarten in the Bronx. And no, there are no plans to boot
           alumni - that was never a proposition. What was said was that we
           put a *LOT* of effort into this environment, mainly used by alumni,
           and the generosity of this does not seem to be appreciated. We're
           not a free ISP, we're a professional student organization, and it's
           only reasonable that we have -some- expectations out of how we use
           our servers. Like, "don't act like children". We desperately want
           alumni to be a more important part of this organization, but we
           need to constantly evaluate whether that is happening and what we
           can do to improve it. And, it's important to note, the 'alumni
           commmunity' stretches much wider than the MOTD audience, and we
           try to keep that perspective in mind, as well. Not only will a
           slightly less  hostile MOTD be good for new students, it may
           very well attract more alumni who have been turned off on it.
           \_ Just as a tiny piece of advice, if I may be so bold, consider
              paring down your essays a bit and working on making a point
              in a more succinct manner--it's more effective.  -John
        \_ And the "why should we allow alumni.." quote was a rhetorical one,
           intended to solicit retrospection and perspective. Communicating
           subtleties of intent are often difficult in 'informal' environments
           like this, and there's at least a fair chance that much of the
           animosity comes from both sides misinterpreting the intentions of
           the other. As always, talking about things like this face to face
           is always far more productive. Alumni are always welcome to
           attend politburo meetings (Mondays @@ 7pm) and share their thoughts.
           As people like mconst and dlong  can attest to, we (and I, especially)
           make a lot of effort to solicit their views. An alumni representative
           actually sat with us during the MOTD debate and provided more insight
           and dialog than any other participant in the audience (politburo
           included). This insight was invaluable. We ultimately decided on
           the side of anonymity, which was not the position they represented,
           but it helped give us a much deeper perspective. If you feel strongly
           about something, then the place to broach that is in person at our
           meetings. To be honest, with all the emotion on the MOTD, it's hard
           to take things too seriously - and it's easy to get into too 'defensive'
           a mode of debate. And as much of an apparent schism as seems to exist,
           this almost always collapses when you realize that the person on the
           other side of the debate is an actual 'person'. -amckee
           \_ Above, you write "we ultimately decided on the side of
              anonymity"?  In the minutes of the meeting, I thought
              the 4-1 vote to "Modify the system" was a vote to
              institute motd logging?  Please explain.
              \_ I typed too quickly. We decided to enable a provision such
                 that, in extreme circumstances, the politburo could identify
                 the source of an motd edit and deal with them offline, through
                 our normal disciplinary channels. This would never include
                 de-anonymizing them to the motd. amckee
           \_ It seems clear that the decision to deanon is one for the pburo
              to make. The most reasonable complaint I've heard is that the
              proposal was not structured or formalized well. This seems fair,
              and it may be that the MOTD's importance to some alumni was
              underestimated? Putting in the effort to get both a technical
              solution and a policy that is robust and as liberal as possible
              seems worth it (especially if alumni can be made to do most of the
              work?). But I'll likewise agree that some of the same people who
              are complaining the loudest don't seem to understand the reality of
              today's student body, and don't give credit when credit is due
              to the work put in by the current pburo. Of course this is *some*
              people, I've seen plenty of jvarga props in the last few months.
              \_ And yes, jvarga deserves definite props. We sometimes ride
                 him a bit hard, but he's always had what he felt was the
                 best interests of the CSUA at heart. We may disagree occasionally,
                 but he's been one of the most self-sacrificing individuals I've
                 known. -amckee
              \_ The decision I actually proposed was more alumni friendly
                 than what was originally proposed, in my opinion. We
                 decided that we needed the capability to identify motd edit
                 authors, but I wanted to leave the implementation
                 (technical and theorhetical) largely up to the alumni. This
                 got thrown back in our face as "we don't want to eat your
                 dog food". Reasonable, but perhaps more rooted out of
                 initial frustration. Although we aren't negotiable on the
                 need for the provision, we're pretty flexible on how it's
                 done and we're fairly open to suggestions on how
                 disciplinary action should be handled. My own idea was that
                 if someone is making threatening, slanderous, or hostile
                 attacks or comments against another person - the sort of
                 things that you would not expect to find in a work place or
                 professional environment - that we need to be able to deal
                 with that person. In most circumstances, this would
                 probably start out with a warning. In circumstances like
                 the one that initially prompted this whole mess, it might
                 lead straight to sorrying.  As with all such disciplinary
                 actions, this is a matter decided upon by the
                 politburo. (Granted, if someone is being a real pest, an
                 officer or root staff may need to temp-sorry them until a
                 vote can be made.) At no point did we ever discuss or
                 suggest that we would "tell the world" who the offender
                 was, that'd just be silly - especially since most of us
                 don't even use the MOTD. For the most part, it'd probably
                 be a system such that we only got involved if someone
                 complained (or how else would we know about it?)
                 Hopefully, once tempers calm down, we can get some more
                 productive suggestions on a solution that is as palatable
                 as possible to the users of the forum.  - amckee
2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40121 Activity:high
10/16   C'mon people, stop threatening to not hire anyone, or sorrying
        \_ I agree, that was done in very poor taste.  Amckee has put
           a _lot_ of work into this organization and just because you
           disagree with him is no justification for the threats.  You
           have also disproved the benefit that the alumni offer, this is
           like counter-networking, not offering csua members jobs but
           making sure that a csua member is not hired.  You certainly should
           be ashamed of yourself. -mrauser
           \_ "Go go mrauser networking skills!"
           \_ No one guarantees anyone a job.  If there is an offer of help,
              the offer has been to help when a fellow csua-er seems
              competent and reasonable, or at least doesn't seem incompetent
              and unreasonable.  It's not about the decision to de-anonymize
              motd; it's about amckee's response to criticism afterwards.
              Looking dispassionately at his emails wth Partha and his posts
              on motd, does he seem like a reasonable person to you?  Does
              he seem like someone you would want to work with?
              Looking dispassionately at his emails and his posts on motd,
              does he seem like a reasonable person to you?  Does he seem like
              someone you would want to work with?
              \_ Much of the psb emails were taken out of context, he really
                 was being sort of a pain.  He would retort to an argument
                 with a completely sarcastic comment that deserved no response.
                 That said, no matter how I feel about how amckee acts I would
                 never start a "blacklist" campaign.  Thats obscene.  YOU are
                 welcome to not hire him all you want but its truly not fair
                 to go out of your way to ensure that hes not hired anywhere
                 else. -mrauser
                 \_ Give the grownups a little credit.  We're not all that
                    amazingly juvenile.  -John
                 \_ do you really think sorrying someone over 'being
                    annoying in email to politburo/root' is valid?
                    you should read my mailspool, it would make
                    you cry. - danh
                    \_ No, I don't think that, nor do I believe I said that.
                       I thought I just said it isn't right to organize a
                       "blacklisting" movement.  -mrauser
                       \_ I must be reading The Psb Files in a different
                          language than you.  I think you threaten to
                          sorry psb for being annoying.  Or maybe it's
                          someone else.  I must admit I get the logins of
                          current politburo members confused.   Also, you got
                          trolled pretty hard, it happens to most people
                          \_ I think if you will look at emails that I sent
                             the word sorry does not appear in them at all
                             (although I'm not positive).  Please aim your
                             flame more selectively. ;) -mrauser
                             \_ If it had been a flame, you would have noticed
                                real quick.  -John
>Subject: Re: Character attacks
>From: "Partha S. Banerjee,,," <>
>Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:16:47 -0700
>>This is your first and last warning, Partha. If I continue to see character
>>assassinations against any member of the politburo, myself included, I will
>>sorry your account. If I continue to see defamation against my character, I
>>will file for a restraining order against you that bars you from your
>>behavior. No friends that you think you have on the 'inside' will be able
>>to help you. I have no tolerance for your bullshit and I am keeping a log
>>of the things you say which, so far, have been happily easy to attribute to
>>you. If you wish to debate an issue or represent a political idea, do so as
>>an adult. You're welcome to come to the next Politburo meeting and discuss
>>the concerns you have, but you will not be able to hide behind a computer
>>screen and cast your vitriol on our servers.
                 \_ It seems to me that a "blacklist" campaign based on a flame
                    war over a text file would have the main result of causing
                    people to think that Berkeley CS grads are raving lunatics.
                    \- look i am getting fed up with this "out of context"
                       comment. i have "released" essentially all the context.
                       at this point you have to claim people lack comprehensio$
                       at this point you have to claim people lack comprehension
                       or intelligence. because what they are NOT lacking are
                       the bits and the bytes. the only think i didnt make
                       public is mr. mckee last reply to me, because it seems
                       like in that case he sort of asked me not to make
                       it public. is "being a pain" and sarcasm in the
                       evergrowing lists of sorryable offenses? i shall now
                       enjoy my iftar chicken. --psb
                       \_ I only say out of context because not every email
                          was posted there (I'm almost certain I had 2-3 more
                          replies to you than the one I saw).  And Some innane
                          comments you made were:
*While we respect your right to be a complete troll and to voice your
do you know what troll means?
just curious.
*there might be an 'easier' solution to them.
we might even call it "the final solution".
happy belated yom kippur.
                          There was also another one, but I don't want to
                          bother to find it in my emails.  -mrauser
                          \_ Are you saying you *want* Partha to publish every
                             email that passed between him and members of the
                             Politburo concerning the motd policy change?  And
                             that would satisfy in your mind the question
                             whether amckee was quoted out of context?  Is
                             this an official Politburo position?
                             \_  Thankyou for scewing my words.  I said that
                                 it was out of context because not all the
                                 emails were published, it was not a request
                                 for him to publish them.  I was the one who
                                 originally told him I was fine with him
                                 publishing them, but I would prefer he not,
                                 just because it will create more and more
                                 spam (of which I don't intend to reply) but
                                 he is free to post any emails he wishes
                                 (unless in that email amckee asked him to not
                                 post it). -mr
                                 \_ It seems somewhat disingenuous to on one
                                    hand not to want psb to publish all the
                                    hand to not allow psb to publish all the
                                    emails and on the other hand castigate him
                                    as "quoting out of context" for not
                                    publishing all the emails.
                             \- The above quotes are (already) included at:

                             \- The above quotes are included at:
                                The only psb-pburo email not included
                                there is one sent to me after the above
                                quote [and thus arguably not relevant to
                                assessing my state of mind and intentions
                                writing the above]. I certainly would
                                be happy to reciprocally trade your right
                                to "release" all of my email if I have the
                                same right with the pburo emails. The only
                                email not on the site above is this one:
                                  From Sat Oct 15 14:39:04
                                  To: "Partha S. Banerjee
                                which ends with a post script saying he
                                did not give me persmission to share his
                                emails. which certainly was not my impression
                                and i leave it to the spectators to judge
                                that for themselves. i personally think it
                                was courteous for me to ask. i think i
                                should have unilateral right to share
                                email sent to me about me in his official
                                capacity as the csua president. So if
                                mr. mckee wants to "relese" me w.r.t. to
                                the last email, then we can truely say
                                the record is complete and people can make
                                their own decisions. --psb
                                \_ The decision I've made is that both psb
                                   and amckee are idiots and should get
                                   a life outside of motd. -neutral guy
                                   \- i have a lot of free time during
                                      ramadan. khudah hafiz. --psb
                                      ramadan. --psb
2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40120 Activity:nil
10/16   are people really getting sorried for hurting
        politburo's feelings in email?
        \_ In motd.  amckee sorried one person and threatened to sorry at
           least one more.  That was just Saturday.
        \_ I'm an alumnus who has donated to the hardware fund, and likes the
           MOTD the way it is, not that that seems to matter. I also just read
           amckee's e-mails to psb.
           - Why should I donate anymore if there really is a chance my
             account could be taken away?
           - Why should I donate anymore when the money is incompetently spent
             on hardware that doesn't work with BSD?
           - [Deleted entry about hardware purchasing incompetence and BSD,
              since anyone can make that mistake. And I
              appreciate all the officers' and VP's hard work.]
           Sorry I missed the whole brouhaha, but some clarifying statements
           from the Politburo seem in order.
2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40118 Activity:kinda low
10/16   OK, plea from me (and a lot of others, I'm sure):  write what you
        want to, who cares, that's the whole point, but when you've written
        it, please please please just take a second to read it through and
        ask yourself, "is tihs teh ghei or n0es?"  I'm not asking anyone to
        self-censor based on whether they write stupid shit, no matter what
        they're trying to get across, but just ask yourself that quick
        question.  It doesn't take long, is great practice for life, and helps
        save put off the point at which we reach peak byte.  -John
        \_ Well, amckee has mistakenly sorried one person (since remedied),
           and he has threatened to sorry at least one more (me), for content
           that he finds objectionable.  In my case, because I quoted him
           self-describing his role in the Politburo.  Does this sound like a
           person can "write what you want"?   - tse
           \_ Yes, it does.  They're not sending you to fucking siberia, they're
              threatening to turn off an email account.  I'll write exactly
              what the fuck I want until the minute they turn off my account,
              and so should you.
           \_ Yes, it does.  The whole discussion is moronic on the scale of
              galaxies (both the fact that some measures like this have been
              proposed at all and peoples' reaction to them.)  Look up "tempest
              in a teapot."  Threatening to sorrying alumni (or anyone) for
              stupid shit like this is about as mature as saying "you go home
              now, you can't play with my toys anymore.  The only proper
              reaction is to just leave.  It's a fucking _account_, and if
              someone doesn't want to let you play with their toys anymore,
              guess what, it's a nice day outside.  -John
              \_ It's more than an account. Some of us old farts have been
                 around here for decades. soda is the occasional meetingplace
                 where get to poke each other and say hi. That is why CSUA has
                 been described as a social club as opposed to a hardcore
                 techie org. Nice as it is outside, I'd rather hang here and
                 piss off tse and psb. Feel the love!
                 \_ Alas, since I refused to toe the line amckee drew for me
                    by continuing to criticize him on MOTD, I am afraid I will
                    likely be sorried shortly after the next Politburo meeting.
                    It has been 19 years since my first cc account.  I was
                    hoping to make it 20 before I call it quits.  - tse
                    But at least I will be sorried following the official
                    process rather than at the whim of amckee.  I will
                    probably count that as a small pyrrhic victory. - tse
                    \_ This is all frightfully stupid.  Amckee wrote some
                       self-indulgent, stupid mails, psb was being difficult
                       as always, and the CSUA moves on.  Stop being such a
                       drama queen.  -John (only 15 years, alas.)
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40114 Activity:high
10/16   Dear fellow working alumni. I have begun circulating a negative
        networking blacklist in my company. I am making sure amckee does
        not get hired. I work at Intel Corporation and I've passed the
        list to my friends some who work at Yahoo and Google. They've also
        begun circulating it to the HR depts in other companies as well,
        including the less well know companies. Please circulate the list
        throughout Silicon Valley and tell me which companies you've passed
        the list to. thx.        -alum of 1990, Intel Verification, SC
         \_ I left Intel in 99 as an Eng7, at the age of 24, ranked
            Critical Intel Asset. I'm sure your opinion, however, is
            Critical Intel Asshat. I'm sure your opinion, however, is
            equally valid. -amckee
            \_ Hey!  tjb's back! -geordan
        \_ wow, intel verification AND head of HR. impressive. (not amckee)
        \_ This is the reason that brett was temporarily sorried. We will
           be discussing the issue on Monday. The decision will be at the
           discretion of the full politburo, not just me. As much as you
           may disagree with my opinions, this grossly oversteps what is
           an acceptable response to having such a difference of opinion.
           I'm less concerned with the affect that this has on me, my
           resume speaks for itself, but most politburo are just undergrads,
           CS students who just signed up to have fun and learn a bit about
           running a group. They should never feel that, should they try
           to implement a controversial decision, that they could be
           subjected to such a grossly intimidating and caustic repurcussion.
           This may be acceptable in 'real politics', but we're just students,
           and this is just a student organization. The palor of fear that
           this will cast over politburo will prevent it from enacting
           decisions that may be necessary for its survival, however
           controversial. Should students know that this might happen,
           the even worse affect is that it might prevent them from even
           joining the ranks of politburo. This action very realistically
           threatens the success of the organization and the stability
           of the politburo. We are not a full political body, we are
           not your senators, your representatives, or your president. We
           should never have to deal with this level of intimidation. Call
           it censorship, call it draconian, call it what you will - but
           we live in an insular world and these are not things that most
           students should have to face. -amckee
           \_ Anyone making a serious squish decision based on an external
              web site, esp. one that is known to be sucky, is an idiot.
           \_ it looks like you've been successfully trolled.
        \_ Those with an opinion on this matter, or any matter, are always
           welcome to attend politburo meetings. We give more weight to
           the concerns of current students, admittedly, but we will take
           your insight into consideration. Many of you have faced problems
           similar to the ones we've faced, and constructive feedback and
           wisdom is always welcome. For those that have a personal problem
           with me, the appropriate way to deal with that is by talking to
           me. I suspect our differences are not nearly as great as
           the emotion of this motd indicates. Sorry for being long again,
           John. -amckee
           \_ I don't think John's point is about length but more to do with
              succintness.                            -mice
        \_ Upon speaking with Brett, this is not attributable to him. kchang's
           logs were wrong, probably not an uncommon occurance. Part of why
           I had not brought this to the MOTD was that I wanted to hear
           from Brett. However, someone else felt it important to mention here.
           I have unsorried him and am sorry for any inconvenience.  However,
           as a point of clarification for whomever did post this, the damage
           you felt that I may have done to the CSUA is far diminished by the
           extent of your actions. I'll only be in office for another couple
           months, and other officers may have different opinions. However,
           the real 'cultural shift' in the CSUA is now almost certainly
           attributable to you. If your goal was to supress dissent, to coerce
           agreement, and to bully your view into an organization that you
           are no longer a part of - you have likely succeeded. Politburo
           may no longer feel comfortable enacting certain decisions. At a
           minimum, we now know better than to try and explain ourselves
           and our views, as it just opens us up to personal attacks and
           retribution. This will be the last post I make to the MOTD, it's
                        \_ Can I have your stuff? -geordan
           just not worth it to me to fight with you. I fully welcome
           the insight and opinions people have about how we're running this
           organization, but it will be more effective if you can come to
           a meeting or email us. This has turned into a gossip-fueled hate
           fest, and right now I feel pretty ashamed to have anything to do
           with this organization. The optimism I had in trying to find ways
           to make student's lives here a bit better is rapidly fading, and
           if all that's going to happen is that they're going to grow up
           into people anything at all like the minority of you who have
           made this such an evil place, then I just don't see the purpose.
           Good luck with your MOTD. -amckee
        \_ Haven't you threatened to sorry people because of their
           emails to politburo?  That sucks.
        \_ For the record, I did not write the above posting. -brett
           \_ He did (or "didn't do" as it turns out) something so horrible it
              was necessary to sorry him before getting his side of the story?
              \_ Man, amckee is serious about this sorry business.  He
                 threatened to sorry me when he thought I quoted his infamous
                 self-portrayal as "resident foobar".   BTW, it's not likely
                 I'll be in a position to hire amckee (I don't hire sw guys
                 in general, though I might for dv I suppose), but I would
                 certainly advise against hiring if his name crossed my desk.
                 From my personal dealings with him (just one logged write
                 conversation, to be fair), he seems to have problems
                 controling his temper and he's probably a pain to work
                 with.  -  tse
        \_ Wow, this is really lame.  Whomever did post it needs to get a
           brain.  I mean, are you trying to force motd logging?  --PM
           \_ PM: I think the actual lesson here is different.  I bet many
              people are silently thinking "I would not want to hire this
              guy based on his writings" without putting those thoughts into
              the MOTD.  And this the the guy who wants us to "trust him"
              over the judicious use of the anonymity logs?
              \_ Well, amckee is trying to portray this as alums threatening
                 the politburo, but I think it's just amckee.  There's enough
                 from MOTD and from his emails to hang him.
                 \_ What triggered amckee's temper tantrum? Just Partha's
           \_ I'd bet dollars to donuts that's *exactly* what OP is trying to
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40113 Activity:low
10/16   So when do we start the underground rebel motd?
        \_ ?
2005/10/15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40111 Activity:nil
10/14   Michael Rauser <mrauser@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote on csua@csua
        : I apologise for the recent spam to csua@csua.  It is intended as a news
        : mailing list (minutes, official announcements, etc.) and not as a
        : discussion forum.  I have altered the list to make it moderated, requiring
        : posts to be approved before going out to the full list.
        \_ This is a marked and until now unannounced change in the nature
           of csua@csua.  When was advance notice given of this change of
           csua@csua to a moderated list? --Jon
           \_ The ua part of the 'csua' title means that the undergrads
              don't need to get permission from alum for everything.
              \_ "It's [the CSUA] not a democracy. We're democratically
                 elected, but once in office we have near complete
                 authority to implement the policies that we see
                 fit. Think communist russia ..." -amckee, CSUA President
                 \_ and if it's not obvious, the above was not posted
                    by me and was taken out of context. thx psb.  -amckee
                    \_ Could you explain how the quote was taken out of
                 \_ This is the organization that was left to us by our
                    faithful alumni. We do not have a congress, a judiciary
                    system, or any vestiges of democracy within the typical
                    power structure. Quite honestly, I'm not aware of any
                    student group here that's run differently.  At some
                    point in the past, the CSUA was your organization to
                    run and shape as you saw fit. I'm sure you each had
                    issues that you felt were important to deal with,
                    things that needed to be chanrged relative to
                    tradition, and so forth. I'm sure each of you also
                    would have resented it had a group of people who have
                    no awareness of the current organization's culture and
                    needs kept expecting deferrence to their ideas and
                    beliefs about how the organization should be run. The
                    students, at some point, trusted you to run the
                    organization to the best of your abilities. Right now,
                    the students trust us to do that. We may fuck up, we
                    may piss people off, but these are our mistakes to make
                    - just like they were yours, at one point. We care
                    about the alumni community and feel that they
                    contribute a lot that is valuable to the CSUA, but our
                    charter is clearly the service of current
                    undergraduates. We would love to make alumni happy, but
                    as i'm sure each of you can see from these threads,
                    that's obviously impossible. In the end, we will always
                    chose the path that we think is in the best interest of
                    current students. I'm sure you each would have expected
                    the same, when you were students. As it is, this server
                    is barely utilized by current students. This issue has
                    comprised probably 50+ manhours of politburo time -
                    time that has directly detracted from what we could
                    have been doing to help out current students. We
                    continue to spend thousands of dollars on this
                    hardware, when the main reason it needs upgrading is to
                    cater to the ever growing alumni ranks. The donations,
                    sadly, are a far way from making this environment
                    self-supporting. Quite simply, this whole server
                    infrastructure costs this organization more in terms of
                    time and money than current students reap from it.
                    Again, we do care to keep a close alumni community, but
                    a bit more appreciation of the efforts we go to would
                    also be nice. And a bit of understanding that, this
                    really is -our- organization right now, to make better
                    or to fuck up, as it once was yours. We welcome your
                    insight, but we really resent the sense of entitlement
                    that many of you think we owe you. That alumni have
                    accounts here is at the generosity of the CSUA, and
                    directly against UC Berkeley policies.  There is no
                    current desire to change this generosity, but a bit of
                    perspective on your part would be nice. We don't owe
                    you explanations of changes we make to our boxes, we
                    don't need need to justify every decision we make. When
                    we do, it's because we value your insight and wisdom,
                    but don't expect it to be binding. I know many of you
                    disagree strongly with our choices, but the students
                    have entrusted us to shepherd this organization and you
                    just have to trust that we have the best interests of
                    the CSUA at heart, even if you disagree with our
                    actions. -amckee
                    \_ Ok uhm yeah.  So anyway, if the ever growing ranks of
                       alums are a burden, how about just booting them all?
                       If the number of current students is low, how much
                       active recruiting does the CSUA do these days?  Do
                       they still do donut runs at project times?  Sponsor
                       and advertise tournament events?  Go into freshman
                       classes at the start of each semester and tell the
                       gathered hordes the CSUA exists and why they should
                       join?  And once these people join, well, uhm, to be
                       blunt, what do they get from the CSUA anyway?  I see
                       two things from out here in alum-land: fantastic
                       tech help/tips from top notch industry pros from a wide
                       variety of fields and access to jobs they'd otherwise
                       never hear about, much less skip HR and go straight to
                       a hiring manager.  Passion is good.  Directed passion
                       is better.  I assume everyone gave some pretty speach
                       prior to being elected to politburo full of promises.
                       Did any of that stuff happen?  Mission accomplished?
                       Honestly, I don't actually really care all that much
                       about any of this stuff but let's get some perspective.
                       \_ Yes, we do donut runs (as do other groups now),
                          yes we go into classes at the start of the term,
                          yes we do helpsessions and shill our name, and
                          yes the ranks are still low. The current breed of
                          CS student is unlike what you were used to - many
                          are completely apathetic about student groups,
                          many don't identify as CS nerds, and many haven't
                          even watched Monty Python.  It's a mainstream
                          field now and the people here have a lot less in
                          common than the CS nerds did when I was younger
                          (I'm 30 and started with this whole internet/cs
                          stuff over 20 years ago) I do not doubt at all
                                \_ Are you related to
                                   Trevor J. Buckingham?
                          that students -could- leverage a lot from alumni,
                          but right now they don't. They don't read motd,
                          they don't really use Soda, and mostly they just
                          come to our free food events. It's a problem that
                          many politburos recently have had to face. We
                          welcome suggestions, of course, but things are
                          definitely different than they used to be. People
                          join now to hang out on our couches, use our
                          office/lab machines, and make friends. I'm trying
                          to bring in more speakers (hopefully some alumni)
                          to try and give various talks. Hell, maybe a
                          panel of people that graduated 10 years ago could
                          come back and talk about life after
                          Berkeley. Right now, though, none of this whole
                          mess that we call Soda or MOTD is much of a
                          benefit to current students. And, quite frankly,
                          that's unlikely to change. It's just no longer
                          the sort of service that is necessary. The entire
                          login service could go away, and most people here
                          would never even notice. No, there are no plans
                          to do so, but when the politburo looks at things
                          to put its attention and money into, the minimal
                          value this -currently- offers students is a
                          factor. And jobs typically come into jobs@
                          now. Our current focus is much more on
                          face-to-face services, since that's the only
                          thing that seems of value to people now,
                          anyways. -amckee
                          \_ Whoa!  I've seen what's coming into jobs@.  That
                             is not at all the same as real jobs.  An
                             announcement from some consultancy that they're
                             recruiting is *nothing* like having an alum
                             hand your resume to someone and say "hire this
                             person".  If you get nothing else out of your
                             time at Berkeley, get this: networking is more
                             important than your gpa, major, or anything else.
                             And yes, it's true I haven't set foot in years
                             and I'm out of touch, but if politburo is so
                             in touch and active then why can't they get
                             other students interested?  This has nothing to
                             do with Monty Python.  I'm not even sure why
                             you mention that.  shrug.
                \_ How much more donation do you need?  There is no
                   information as to how much is needed, how much has
                   been donated, what the money was spent on, etc.
                   No detailed accounting is being asked for here, just
                   a rough breakdown.  Otherwise, how would we know
                   how much to donate.   - soda donor
                   \_ I know I'm going to get flamed by mrauser for saying
                      this, but the largest issues facing the CSUA right
                      now are not cash related. What we need more than
                      money is a way to get students more involved with
                      their school and major, to introduce them to better
                      coding practices and non-academic technologies, to
                      provide tutoring and help to a breed of students that
                      may never have seen a command line - on UNIX or
                      Windows. Basically, we need to help build a community
                      of current students that is as vibrant as what those
                      who used to be here knew. (I still think we can do it
                      while acting professional and mature, but enough of
                      that.) I don't have the specific budget in front of
                      me for last year, but we requested something like
                      $4000 last year in hardware expenses (but received
                      less) and around $1000 this year (which we
                      received). Although the money is important and does
                      make it easier to buy random upgrades or components,
                      the bigger need is just 'more time'. New Soda has
                      been largely held up due to lack of this precious
                      resource, not cash. And, since so few current
                      students use this resource, it's hard to justify
                      spending too much time on it (for those of us in
                      pburo), when we could use this time to try and
                      coordinate speakers, corporate info-sessions,
                      help-sessions, etc. The better donation, in all
                      honest, is the wisdom, time, and insight that each of
                      you have - whether it's to help the root staff debug
                      an issue, come talk to the students about a topic
                      either technical or pragmatic, or basically help
                      foster a sense of community outside of the insular
                      confines of Soda and the MOTD. There hasn't been a
                      lot that we haven't been able to do, due to lack of
                      cash, but there has been a lot that we haven't been
                      able to do, due to lack of time. Hence the
                      proposition to -slightly- expand the size of the
                      politburo.  But, to keep mrauser from killing me, we
                      love cash too. (cough) - amckee
                      \_ I had a longer post, but I suspect it was wasted
                         breath, so I rescued some precious motd bits.  -mice
                      \- ms amckee suggests i did not provide sufficient
                         context. pls see
                         for fuller context. "by my words you will know me".
                         it is odd to see the motd discussion turn into an
                         alumni issue.
2005/10/15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40108 Activity:nil
10/14   Many thanks to jrleek for being the catalyst for creating a
        brand new era of CSUA.
        \_ 2nd that. jrleek is a good man.
        \_ Now lets go invade a University that had nothing to do with the
           \- this is a politburo decision. do you blame PAT or BUSHCO
              for the state of the country? [choosing the appropriate PAT
              is left as a limited degree of freedom]. --psb
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40106 Activity:moderate
10/15   psb:  At least two out of five Politburo members are ... well,
        just being undergrads.  They're trying, but surely you didn't expect
        anything more?
        \- 1. it may be unfair to tar the entire pburo
              with the mckee brush. i wonder which pburo
              member voted against the madness?
           2. i am not sure they are "trying".
                see e.g. "I honestly couldn't possibly care less about
                people complaining of losing  anonymity ..." -amckee
                in case you believe i am "quoting out of context"
              it was unfortune the rationale for deanonymizing
              the motd was not more clearly stated and various
              issues got entangled [such as the liability issue
              and the unwelcoming environment/participation issue]
              but the the csua president can justly be taken to
              task for framing it in these adventitious terms
              and attacking the out-to-lunch, spoiled, overly-
              indulged, narrow-minded, self-interested alumni.
           3. so i dont expect overly deep thinking about
              say free speech in the abstract, but crazy stuff
              like "psb is a notorious spammer and hoser for
              mailing the csua mailing list about a political
              matter" seems just nuts. deeper into some of the
              threads on the web directory above, you cant
              help speculate what it would be like to have
              ms. mckee as a colleague. i wonder if ms mckee is
              a famous turntablist/bboy?
              \- And I can't even imagine what it must be like to work
                 with someone so obviously disconnected from reality
                 and rational thinking. Yes, making the MOTD trackable
                 is MADNESS. Crazy! OoOOooH! Halloween! Bats! Scary shit!
                 Are you even capable of perspective? I'm afraid you're
                 the one that sounds 'out to lunch'. But please, feel
                 free to libel me. I'd love nothing more than than have
                 an excuse to remove you on sufficient 'legal' grounds
                 to make even you happy. =) Have a nice day, I'm done
                 with talking to you ms. banerjee. I'm sure your friends
                 over at slashdot could use some of your attention.
                         \- you know, i probably read slashdot less
                            than 95% of the people reading this.
                            isnt ./ sort of focused on AssOS?
                 \- Well, I began to wonder about this when you wrote:
                     "[mrauser]s more level headed and egalitarian than
                     I am. My opinion is much more admittedly
                     draconian. I'm used to being a corporate manager
                     and overseeing teams of 30+ engineers scattered
                     across the world.  That doesn't exactly work with
                     the consensus view of management, so I go for
                     autocratic. (It's okay, you can say it, I'm used
                     to being the resident asshole on the team - but at
                     least shit gets done.)"
                 [again, context is at:
                    BTW, I appreciate your letting me quote this thread.
                    It makes things much easier.
2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40103 Activity:kinda low
10/15   Whatever happens with the motd debate, someone made a point below
        that I hope doesn't get lost:
        " If you get nothing else out of your time at Berkeley, get this:
        networking is more important than your gpa, major, or anything else. "
        I just wanted to put this up as a really valuable piece of advice, and
        I hope undergrads take it to heart.  If you're going into "the real
        world", this is very true most of the time.  -John
        \_ Thanks.  --Wrote that anon but since it was anon it must be a troll
                      and should be dismissed out of hand.   ;-)
        \_ Out of the four jobs I've had in the last 8 years, all of them were
           at least partly attributable to networking.   -mice
        \_ This is true.  I got my excellent first job thanks to networking,
           and I got 2 sodans jobs because I knew them. -eric
           \_ yeah.  I've gotten every job I've had because of networking,
              and most of my freelancing work comes from soda or ex-coworker
              contacts.  I wish I'd known this when I was in college, I
              would have done things a lot differently, i.e. going to
              professor office hours starting my freshman year, going to
              more student events, etc.
2005/10/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40090 Activity:nil
10/14   So, amckee and mrauser think that a csua web forum would be a good
        idea.  If fact, they think it would surpass the motd in
        popularity.  I disagree because CSUA discussion forums don't have
        much draw.  There's no theme except that all the people on them
        are CSUA members.  However, what if we had a web forum and the
        subjects of the current active threads were displayed on login
        (as the motd used to be)?  We could even have them display on the
        lounge machines on login as xterm as an ad to join the CSUA.
        \_ They have valid points. Kids today don't value their CS accounts
           like the old farts. They prefer to use yahoo, gmail, POP3, and
           what not, bypassing motd completely. Secondly, motd has been
           in a steadily declining state ever since paolo disabled
           "more /etc/motd.public" for default .login. Most of the new
           soda users don't even know about wall or motd. I predict the
           death of wall and motd within 5 years. With new user monitoring
           mechanism in place, it may even speed up the process. Your goal
           to make motd more civil is a very noble goal, and I completely
           support it. However, unless you want to see motd dying, you
           should also concentrate your efforts on getting new members.
           \_ I agree with you, but politburo doesn't.  I've already had
              the "let's make the motd display on login again"
              conversation with them 2 or 3 times.  So, the above was my
              attempt at a compromise. -jrleek
2005/10/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40082 Activity:very high
10/13   I asked a bit earlier how many of you angry motd-ers are actual CSUA
        \_ Who's angry?  This is a non-issue.  The CSUA politburo should do
           whatever the active CSUA members (i.e. enrolled undergrads) vote
           to do.  We're just excercising the privilege of the ancient to
           smirk condescendingly on the sillinesses that the puppies come
           up with :-)  -John
        voters.  I am guessing very few are.  The reality is this is not your
        machine, and this is not your organization, anymore.  The current
        students in charge are free to run things however they wish.  As
        someone so bluntly put it below, "the decision stands and is not
        debatable".  I do find it amusing that after all the alum donations
        to spiff up the place, we are then told off so cavalierly.
                    \- raising the matter of "are you a current ucb
                       undergrad" might be relevant if the issue was
                       about voting or representation, but if it is
                       about ideas, and they are making reasonable
                       points rather than just claiming "i am older
                       and smarter; you are young and naive" then
                       you should ignore where they ideas are coming
                       from but just address the ideas themselves
                       if they have merit. if the values of the
                       older members are that much out to lunch
                       how can you justify operating under a consitution
                       hardly changed from somethign they wrote ...
                       or are you claiming they somehow had your values
                       when in school but then become unmoored and
                       unhinged upon leaving the evans/sloda/cory environs.
        \_ I don't know, another question worth asking is "How many of the
           angry motd-ers donated?"  I did, and I pretty much agree with
           \_ "Did you donate?" is the CSUA's "you haven't served"  -John
              \_ Of course, "you haven't served" is occasionally also the
                 CSUA's "you haven't served". -gm
           politburo. Although, actually, perhaps a different experiment
           would be interesting. Part of the problem currently is the
           anonymity differential.  Things only got really nasty around
           jblack when kchang's diff exposed who it was posting the
           freeper links. Then some blow hard starting harrasing him
           anonymously.  If anonymity had been guaranteed, at least THAT
           wouldn't have happened. -jrleek
        \_ Check your crystal ball again, that wasn't my post.  The decision
           \_ mea culpa
           was debated extensively (see the pages upon pages in the minutes)
           and it saddens me that the anonimity was abused so badly that it
           will help to remove it.  I won't monitor you if you want to make
           your own world writable ~myname/sleezepit.motd where you can
           slander, insult and threaten as you please.  I think the csua
           motd should be a place where people can post and not be completely
           hounded.  When exactly did you donate by the way? -mrauser
           \- what is the rationale for not monitoring ~myname/sleezepit.motd
              but monitoring /etc/motd? --psb
              \_ If you really need to ask this you are SO dense.  Why do
                 you think I would possibly want to be responsible for
                 hateful comments on the csua's message of the day?  You
                 should probably just go think on it, this isn't worthy of
                 a response. -mrauser
                 \- ok i am a moron. tell me how you will deal with the
                    following: Anonymous A challenges john@soda
                    to a GUN DUEL in ~psb/motd.sleaze. Then PSB posts
                    "Hey John has been challeneged to a GUN DUEL in
                    ~psb/motd.sleaze!" to the motd.public ... this is
                    either signed by psb or "discovered" to be psb
                    via the motd.log.  questions presented:
                    1. is psb liable for something? if so, what?
                       is he reponsible for the threat or just running
                       a non-anonymous forum for thraets? so if psb could
                       find the original threatener A, is he then ok?
                       or is he guilty of helping out the threat?
                       if psb is guilty for helping ut the threat by cross
                       posting it, then isnt something who doesnt delete
                       an obnoxious comment in the motd also responsible
                       for "helping to spread disharmony on sloda"?
                       \_ hello, in the context of a threat you may
                          not be liable [ not 100% sure, maybe there
                          is some way to argue accomplice/conspiracy ]
                          in the context of defamation you could be
                          liable b/c you republished.
                    2. does the politburo not feel responsible in this
                       case since the official motd only contains a
                       POINTER to the inflammatory content?
                    3. maybe i am a moron, but it seems if the reason to
                       for the heavy handed intervention is stop threats
                       then this should extent to any reasonable public
                       forums on sloda. it certainly seems like i should
                       not even be allowed to advertise my evil motd in
                       the official sleaze free zone. although if i am not
                       allowed to post my pointer to ~psb/motd.sleaze, i have
                       to ask can i post a link to with
                       the exact same discussion? ... so it IS ok to post a
                       "sleazy pointer" as long as it points out of CSUA
                       space? if that is not fine either, why is it
                       permissable to post offensive links at all?
                       again what is the criteria of "bad" ... offensive/
                       obscene? child porn? emotionally damaging comments?
                       [like calling somebody a clown? what if you like
                       clowns?] physical threats? what if i just post
                       "i would like to meet you in a boxing ring"?
                       \_ Partha, it's "GUN DUEL", not "a GUN DUEL".  -John
                          \- funny you should say that. --psb
2005/10/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40079 Activity:high
10/14   Dear Politburo:
        I'd like to request that in the future, ALL the names of donors be
        made public as to minimize the potential conflict of interest in the
        future. Currently things go on in csua and we don't know anything
        about it until decisions are already made. There needs to be
        accountability via public auditing. Please make the donation and
        financing information public. Until that happens, there is no more
        donations from me.  I ask all donors to do the same. Thanks.
                                -alum who donated $200, you know who I am
        \_ How donations worked at my last job was that a donor could
           specifically ask to be anonymous.  Otherwise names could be used
           in print.  It seems in bad taste to print amounts, unless a
           donation is particularly large and merits special appreciation.
           That can be done in other ways, however, such as including some-
           thing like, "Donations from these members were particularly
           generous, and deserve extra appreciation."
        \_ This is in the process, the only reason I don't have logs readily
           availible is that I have been backlogged on work.  In the future
           there will be a mechanism to more easily see the status of csua
           finances.  In regard to disclosing the names of donors, I'm not
           sure that will be the policy, but I think we can disclose the
           amounts of each donation (along with all the other money
           allocations). -mrauser
           \- dear op: you should post "i donated" to the motd and then
              get somebody to complain and then have that motd entry
              deanonymized. mrauser: so what is the rationale to have
              donation be anon by default but have the motd entries be
              \_ MOTD: Public forum
                 Donation: Private funds
                 As mrauser said below, the reason we don't post donator
                 information is that we do not want any of this to turn into
                 a "my opinion is more important because I donated more" war.
                        \_ Why not?  Seems like an excellent fundraiser--
                           provided you don't make any actual guarantees of
                           letting someone's opinion matter more.  After all,
                           isn't this how the US congress and senate work?
                           If it's good enough for them why not for the CSUA?
                 When we finally bring Soda Mark VII live and I send out the
                 grand email announcing such, I will post the names of those
                 who donated, but I will not post amounts. - jvarga
              \_ This being the most I have posted to the motd in a day...
                 ever, I'm going to be brief.  When there are monitary things
                 involved, I would rather err on the side of anonimity.  I
                 wouldn't want a "who's donation is bigger" war, and there is
                 no need at all for the public to know WHO donated.  Its not
                 meant to be a blame game or a "I've donated so my opinion
                 matters" situation.  Thats my rationale for donations being
                 not freely publicly disclosed (exactly why do you need to
                 know who donated?).  As for reasons why the motd would be
                 non anonymous, read the minutes, but we wish to discern
                 who posts overt threats on our motd. -mrauser
                 \- are you suggesting it would be censure-worthy for
                    a donor to say "i donated $x" publicly [say in the motd
                    or wall]? how about chowing all the binaries in /csua/bin
                    lest somebody try to throw his weight around because they
                    installed COOL SOFTWARE on sloda? maybe we should make it
                    illegal to keep WALL WARRIOR stats in case new users
                    should fall under the pernicious influence of top
                    WALL WARRIORS. maybe they will SELL THEIR VOTES in return
                    for ANCIENT WALL WARRIOR SECRETS.
2005/10/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40063 Activity:very high
10/13   Now that we're making a user-tracking, totalitarian motd in the
        future, I want to use all the remaining freedom to insult people.
        Whoever proposed this idea, fuck you. Paolo is an ass and
        all heil German John. Viva la libertarian-style motd!!!
        \_ What is wrong with root having a way to track who posted what when
           someone complains about inappropriate behavior on the motd?  Why is
           everyone complaining?  The fact that Politburo has had to make the
           decision to put a system in place to keep a log is not a symptom of
           a "totalitarian regime," but rather a forum where people's blatant
           disrespect for each other caused a problem that had to be addressed.
           You will still have your anonymity so you can troll away at each
           other, but root will finally have the ability to look at a private
           log IF AND WHEN the need arises to take care of issues that get out
           of hand.  No one will be monitoring the log, lording over you with
           the wiggling finger.  Life will continue on as normal.  But finally,
           those anonymous cowards who use unconventional motd posting means to
           threaten others will have to check themselves knowing that if they
           make a real threat and someone complains, that there will be
           judgment on their not-so-anonymous self.  The only people
           complaining about root having logs are those who are the people
           doing the threatening and are worried that they cannot continue to
           do so anonymously.  Get a life, grow up, and be civil to each other
           (insult each other all you want, we don't care.  Just don't cross
           the line and make real threats.).  Sheesh. - jvarga
           \_ The problem as I see it isn't so much the tracking mechanism,
              but the vagueness of the standard for breaking anonymity in a
              forum where some pretty hot-topic issues are often addressed.
              I'm rather uncomfortable knowing that we are giving power to
              tantrumy admins without any real limitations or clear standards
              of application.  Honestly, don't our stewards have more important
              things to do than chase after lackwit trolls?     -mice
        \_ If all they're really doing is logging this shit somewhere, I don't
           think it will matter.  What the cowards who like censorship fail
           to understand is how many of the trolls have the personality that
           tends to tell people to go fuck themselves straight to their face.
           Overall, I don't think the level of debate is really that much
           lower here than at the national level anyway.  Don't forget we
           recently had the Vice President of the United States tell a
           senator to go fuck himself, on record, in the senate.
           \_ It isn't about trolls.  Trolling is one of the 'fun' things about
              anonymity.  If you're going to get ballistic when someone posts a
              random link you deserve what you get.  I see the problem being
              with people who instead of saying "fuck you" (which is just
              stupid), make threats to life, limb, reputation, etc.  At that
              point there needs to be recourse, otherwise the CSUA is just
              providing a means to attempt to ruin another person with no way
              for the victim to even know who is doing it much less have a
              chance of stopping it.  Trolling is posting random stupid links.
              Going after someone in a personal way is not trolling.  That is
              harassment at a minimum and shouldn't be tolerated.  This comes
              back to the question raised several weeks ago about fresh blood
              on the motd.  Why would any new person want to step into such an
              environment?  And why can't we have an environment better than
              the rest of the net or the Senate floor, or where ever?  Just
              because another place sucks is no reason we have to emulate that.
              \_ I think you summarised the reasoning (if not improved upon
                 it) during the meeting.  We were thinking that it really
                 wasn't a constructive thing for people to be abusing the
                 anonimity to threaten others.  This is absolutely not intended
                 to be a "politburo intends to be the thought police" system.
                 The logs will also be root-only accessible and we're toying
                 with putting in a system such that you need two members of
                 root to access them. -mrauser
              \_ Just out of silly curiosity, has this happened to any serious
                 extent, has anyone been affected physically by this, or is
                 it a case of "won't someone think of the children"?  -John
                 \_ What benefit is it to the CSUA to have the MOTD anonymous?
                    (Unlike pretty much every other form of electronic
                    communication).  Is having wall logs "thinking of the
                    People should be accountable for what they say.  -tom
                 \_ Do you mean, "Has anyone not gotten involved with the
                    motd because it is overly caustic?"  If so, Yes.
                    \- non-anon wont solve the causticity problem
                       \_ Sure, but what was pp asking?
                    \_ No, has anyone been attacked/gotten in a fight/whatever,
                       because of what was said on the motd and complained, or
                       or has the CSUA been told off by a roving gang of UC
                       lawyers, or is this just a case of "well no, but it
                       _could_ happen"?  Is there a binding definition of
                       "harassment" from any authority that governs the CSUA?
                       I'm just curious... -John
                       \_ People no longer post here.  Isn't that enough?  How
                          many more have to be chased off?  Just because they
                          didn't file some sort of 'official' complaint with
                          politburo, it is ok they left after enough abuse?
                          Why does someone have to be beaten with a bat for
                          it to matter?
                          \_ I seem to recall people complaining about and
                             leaving the wall too.
                             There can never be enough chasing. We must
                             chase unto the hundreds, the thousands, the
                             hundreds of thousands. They shall all run before
                             the mighty motd. Kneel before motd.
                             (anyway, isn't it ironic that in the jblack case,
                             the only reason he became a "threat target" is
                             that other people de-anonymized him in the first
                       \_ From the minutes:
                          "Some people want to make [motd] semi-non-anymonous.
                          We don't want to be in trouble with libel, slander,
                          threats, etc. ... the people whoa re being attacked
                          are not complaining about it, it's not really a
                          problem! the message was just a troll ... we are
                          sorta sanctioning this simply by keeping it there
                          and not responding to these kind of threats"
                          I read this to mean Politburo (4 out of 5) got
                          freaked out about the GUN DUEL references, even
                          though it was a troll.  Could be wrong.
                          \_ BUD DAY doesn't like your tone.
                          \_ Not the gun duel, jblack hater guy
                             threatening anonymous harrassment and abuse.
                         I suppose it's good they haven't heard about GUN DUEL
                         yet ...
                         \_ Man, can't two consenting adults even talk about
                            organizing GUN DUEL without everyone getting all
                            freaky about it?  If it was jblack hater being
                            a weenie, and jblack complaining, that's one thing,
                            but I don't seem to recall either of the parties
                            involved in GUN DUEL raising a stink.  -John
                            \_ "the people whoa re being attacked are not
                               complaining about it ... we are sorta
                               sanctioning this simply by keeping it there
                               \_ So the people who are being attacked are
                                  not complaining. Perhaps they get the joke?
                                  It's the freakin' motd. I barely take the
                                  news links seriously.
                                  \_ They complained.  They up and left, duh.
                                     Just because they didn't file an official
                                     complaint and fill out some paper work,
                                     you think it's ok they're not here any
                                     more?  The motd is enriched by them
                                     leaving?  Sheesh.
                                  \_ And that benefits the  -tom
                                     \_ Allows those who have a minority,
                                        maginalized, or unpopular opinion to
                                        speak out. Allows people to judge the
                                        opinion separately from judging the
                                        person. And allows yermom to accept
                                        all the action she can take without
                                        you feeling bad about it.
                                        \_ We can have an anonymous motd
                                           without the assault and abuse.
                                           I'm totally in favor of what you're
                                           saying right here, but I'm totally
                                           opposed to allowing people to abuse
                                           their anonymous privs to attack
                                           other people.  Post your troll
                                           links, post your minority opinion,
                                           but don't expect to get away with
                                           direct personal threats and
                                           assault be it virtual or physical.
        \_ I don't care about user tracking as long as our stupid
           libertarian stops trolling and nuking the motd.
           \- anonymity enables discussion of certain topics that may not
              be discussed non-anonymously. non-anonymity, as the wall
              very nicely proves, will not make things warm and fuzzy. --psb
        \_ The Delaware S. Ct. just ruled on the issue of anon speech
           on the internet. If anyone is interested the opinion is at:
           Of interest may be the cts assertion that the constitutional
           rights of Internet users to speak anonymously must be
           "carefully safeguarded."
           \- this is about whether the sloda motd should be anonymous
              or not. you can support the possibility of anon speech without
              being obligated to provide a particular channel. although it
              is certainly true there are blurry areas ... like can a town
              deny a speech permit to somebody because it will cost thousands
              of dollars in police overtime [stipulating that this isnt a
              sham excuse]. does it matter whether it is an anti-BUSHCO
              parade or a neo-nazi parade [see skokie case] or say a parade
              to laude the virtues of IKEA or INNNOUT BURGER. i think one of
              the more interesting free speech cases is PRUNEYARD v. ROBBINS.
              i am not suggesting you are sugesting a legal obligation here,
              but i think it is clear "the csua" can do what it wants with
              the motd, just as i think it is clear it is clownheaded to
              put these restrictions on the motd. now if somebody else wanted
              to created /foo/bar/non-clownlike-motd-for-non-softheaded-adults
              which was anonymous and "the CSUA" smacked that down without
              a pretty compelling interest ... that would seem to be to be
              pretty suspect.
              \_ Is the politburo committed to monitoring just motd or any
                 world writable file which may be used for motd-like purposes?
                 \- i think they are committed to being clownlike. and to
                    AssOS 2.6, apparently.
                    \_ To be fair, these are a bunch of 20-year olds making
                       political and technical decisions.  How high should
                       our expectations be?
                       \_ They are 20 yr olds at Cal; we should expect
                          a bit more than latest 1337est.
                          \_ I would guess that almost all of us were once
                             20-year old students at Cal.  I was one too.  I
                             think I calibrated my expectations appropriately.
                             And we are not moving to linux because it's the
                             latest l337est; we're linux because the vp
                             couldn't get bsd running.  I calibrated my
                             expectations based on that too (not so much that
                             he couldn't get it up but rather he's unable to
                             determine root cause).
                             \_ The current VP, being completely inept in all
                                ways, shape, and form, did not try to get
                                freebsd running.  He came in, did nothing, got
                                chastized for doing nothing, then suddenly
                                embarked on some sort of religious crusade of
                                "I'm going to try and get people to stop
                                calling me inept so I'm going to try and get
                                new soda working."  I have had new soda, for
                                the most part, working since February.  I've
                                had logins up, home directories mounted, and
                                about 90% of the other stuff working.  Brett
                                and seidl were great and got apache and list
                                stuff working, and there was/is only a small
                                list of stuff left to do.  However, despite
                                my monthly "this is is an explicit list of
                                all there is left to do that I don't know how
                                to do," Politburo, and the VP especially,
                                claim that I don't tell anyone anything.
                                C'mon!  I explicitly said "anyone that can
                                help, please email me and I'll enable your
                                login."  Instead I get amckee telling
                                everyone that nothing works because he cannot
                                log in (I never enabled his login because he
                                threw a temper tantrum and refused to help).
                                Anyway, to get back to the point, we tried
                                loading up new soda with Freebsd 6 this last
                                weekend to see if the new kernel fixes the
                                issues we had installing 5.3, but
                                unfortunately it did not.  Mbh decided to load
                                Gentoo onto the system just to play around and
                                when it booted decided that he was going to
                                push to make Gentoo the new OS for soda since
                                the current system was "unusable" to him.  So,
                                despite the page-long list of reasons that I
                                provided as to why changing soda to Gentoo
                                would be a Very Bad Thing(tm), he still wants
                                to go forward with it because he thinks it is
                                cool to compile the OS from scratch.  The
                                \_ So it is latest 1337est! Anyway
                                   if he really wants to do this,
                                   why doesn't he try OpenSolaris?
                                   At least it is meant for adults.
                                \_ You can compile freebsd from scratch too.
                                guy wants to change soda's OS and claims that
                                he is willing to deal with all the fun that
                                comes from that, when he had to ask a few
                                days ago how to find out when someone logged
                                on last.  Sorry about the ventness of this
                                post, but I have been getting jerked around
                                by the inept politburo for the past 2 months,
                                dealing with lie after lie about me and am
                                trying to fight for some semblence of
                                rationality, but am getting tired of doing
                                so. - jvarga
                                \_ GO JVARGA GO!  W00T!  -John
                             \_ From the meeting minutes I couldn't
                                really figure out what the problem
                                was other than it won't boot.
                                BTW, any reason Linux was picked
                                instead of say OpenSolaris? A
                                friend of mine works on OpenSolaris,
                                I could probably get him to help w/
                                installing it, &c. over winter break.
                                The zones stuff could be useful on
                                \_ Why?  They don't want your advice, and if
                                   you are there to help, you are expected to
                                   blindly execute their wishes.  Do you
                                   really want to be their house nigger?
                                   \_ um? wow.
                 \_ If you want to create ~wierdo/sleezepit.motd in your
                    homedir, where you can slander, insult, and threaten
                    anyone your welcome to do so according to me.  The
                    CSUA motd should be a place where new students won't
                    instantly be scared off by the sheer immaturity and
                    low level of dialogue which occurs there. -mrauser
            \_ I am not suggesting that the csua will be violating any
               fundamental right by monitoring the motd; the politburo
               can implement whatever policy it desires.  However, I
               think that perhaps they should consider the fact that
               some very smart people feel that anon speech is impt.
               Re the suggestion that the motd scares people off - this
               isn't kindergarten; students admitted to cal ought to
               have sufficient critical thinking skills to identify
               inanity and ignore it (including perhaps this post).
               Some of us were ugs when the motd was far less civilized
               AND showed up by default; if we managed to survive viewing
               it on a daily basis, the current crop of kids can too.
               \- on reflection it is kind of interesting that the CSUA
                  has not passed a policy decision that "we will be nice
                  on the motd" but has directly gone to considering
                  de-anonymizing the motd ... which should make you all
                  particularly nervous ... since it seems like you are
                  essentially relying on the "chilling effect" of being
                  found out to condition behavior. ok say i call somebody
                  a dumbass and now that can be conclusively tracked back
                  to me ... am i in violation of csua policy? what policy
                  am i in violation of? does it matter if the person i am
                  calling a dumbass is not offended enough to "press charges"?
                  what if i dont call him a dumbass but give a detail point
                  by point discussion why he is wrong and this ends up
                  being far more humiliating than a "mere" ad hominem?
                  are only point-to-point insults of other sloda people
                  fair game? what if somebody discusses outsourcing of
                  programmers or back office stuff and suggests (all)
                  indians are incompetent programmers or out to use your
                  private tax info for identify theft type reasons?
                  is that grounds to piece the veil of anonymity and
                  smack somebody down? if youa re not even going to entertain
                  the notion of the smackdown, what is the point of the
                  ability to deanonymize? and if the smack down is on the
                  table, what are the grounds. the solitary grounds i can
                  think possibly for a smackdown is forging a post as
                  the danhimal iff the danimal complains. say you call
                  the poliburo "clowns", how many of the pburo would it
                  take to mount a prosecution? 1? plurality? is it not ok
                  to call them clowns in the motd, but ok on the wall?

<<<<<<< Other Changes Below
        \_ Please don't un-anonymous the motd, my burgeoning troll farm will
           wither. :(  -John
2005/10/3-5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39954 Activity:nil
10/3    A confession and an announcement. A few months ago I created
        an interface that allows other people to post on the motd.
        It actually started as a request from someone who said he
        wants to post anonymously. The membership grew to include
        two of my other friends, one who actually never even attended
        Berkeley! Yes, it was an interesting experiment. However things
        got more and more vicious and I finally shut down the interface
        last week. I also stopped posting my own trolls as well. I regret
        for posting trolls and anything mean or derogatory, and for
        allowing others to do the same. I take full responsibility.
        I will aaron myself after I copy a few files back to my
        home machine. Thanks.
        \_ Post your name when you do. -emarkp
        \_ I think it's funny that this is posted anonymously.
           \_ Not really.  What op described is a direct violation of CSUA
              policy and grounds for immediate squishing.
              \_ I'm not sure an anonymous confession is a confession at
        \_ You should be squished insofar as your interface allowed motd
           overwrites.  (If you went so far as to build it, you should have
           built it right, and it is possible.)
        \_ So, was one of yours the jblack hater guy?
        \_ You owe several people personal apologies.
2005/9/29-30 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39922 Activity:nil
9/28    var is full, and I can't send mail, someone please fix it!
        \_ Done.  --mconst
        \_ Don't rely on soda for mail.
                \_ So you only use soda for the motd?
                   \_ I've had a soda account for a long time.  Lots of legacy
                      shit and mailing lists and so forth.  I just don't use
                      it for any mail I actually *need* to get.
           \_ Uuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh, duuuhhhhhhh.
2005/9/20-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:39769 Activity:kinda low
9/20    Since people don't seem to have Clue(tm) about what is going on with
        csua@csua, let me explain:
        With the transition to the new mailman-managed lists, politburo made
        the decision that a requisite of having an account on soda is being
        subjected to knowing what is going on in the organization.  Therefore
        we imported every user into the list.  There was a mistake in that
        jobs@csua was pointing at csua@csua, so everyone was getting job
        spam.  Well, maybe not a mistake, but a poor decision.  It was
        therefore decided that jobs would be an opt-out email list seperate
        from csua@csua.
        You should all be getting much less csua@csua spam, and can opt-out
        of jobs@csua at your discretion.
        - jvarga
        \_ jvarga, how about turning off all alumni accounts? They're
           annoying as hell. We can talk about this at TC Gardens. My treat.
           \_ I'll take you up on free food, but I won't fry alumni accounts.
              I am, unfortunately, out on an internship for 8 months, so I'll
              take you up on this offer you have promised to me without
              putting conditions on it when I get back. - jvarga
              \_ I remember when I was young and could be bribed into doing
                 a 150 project for this hot manipulative BITCH with a cheapo
                 TC Garden lunch that she paid for because I thought she
                 liked me. ARGH!!!!!
                 \_ I almost got dragged into that kind of situation with 162.
                    At the last second I came to my senses.
                    At the last second I came to my senses -- but yeah -- that
                    girl was put together right.  I think she ended up doing
                    *really* badly that semester since both of the people that
                    she tried to manipulate into her group bailed on her.
           \_ Cal alumni tend to bitch a lot and contribute very little.
              Look at Stanford. They have so much idling Sun Ultras
              just waiting to be used or hacked. They've always had
              an abundance. Then look at Cal. 30 years later we're
              still bickering on the lack of resources. Sad. -1980s guy
              \_ What a waste of electricity and silicon.
              \_ Are you sure you're not just describing yourself or justifying
                 your own shortcomings with "everyone else does it"?
              \_ Change begins at home. Why don't you contribute something
                 to the CSUA instead of bitching? - alum who donates
          \_ So, a few alumni are annoying, at least by one person's
             definition.  So now we should use that as reason to turn off
             all alumni accounts?  It would seem to me that alumni
             contribute more than they are annoying.  Some even contribute
           \_ and how will the newbie maggots get a job afterward without
              networking or getting input from the real world?
              \_ Like you would really help anyone besides yourself anyway?
                 \_ I had a longer response but someone stomped me.  I've asked
                    for job postings before and gotten them; I've seen jobs
                    advertised here by grads for both grads and ugrads; I bet
                    alot of the opportunities in the csua/jobs or wherever
                    are from grads.                    -mice
                 \_ I have hired several interns and at least 1 full time
                    person into my group based on reponses to job postings
                    on the motd or general csua contact.
                 \_ Go go gadget mrauser networking skills!  :-)  -John
        \_ As was surmised, and for future reference (not that you or
           the politburo should care) when you do this you should send
           out an email explaining the above.
           \_ I think it got lost in the confusion because Seidl (sp?) did
              the actual mailman configuration.  I agree it would be a good
              idea to send out notice next time (like I did with jobs@csua).
        \_ Am I allowed to opt-out of csua@csua too?
           \_ No, thanks for playing. -mrauser
              As a side note, if you want to use the CSUA server, you at
              least have to pay some attention to CSUA events (or just
              be lame and nuke them in your procmail folder, but I'm watching
        \_ Simple solution to a simple problem-- just nuke every single
           ungrateful alumni who never seem to be satisfied anyways. Why the
           hell are they still using UC resources anyways?
           \_ Opting-out a list reduces resource usage on /var/mail.
              \_ Does the current 'df' situation look like I care about
                 resource usage on /var/mail or /home?
                 - jvarga
        \_ the motd should be an opt-out thing too. Seriously!!
           \_ It already is.  Just do "touch ~/.hushlogin".
              \_ Right now, MOTD is opt-in; new accounts have .hushlogin by
                 default.  -tom
                 \_ And again this wasn't the case for 2 decades until a
                    bitch convinced her bf p**** to disable motd because
                    she was offended by trolls.
2005/9/20-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39763 Activity:nil
9/20    I've had a soda account since 1993.  How come I've never received any
        e-mail from the CSUA mailing list until this month?  I didn't even know
        such a list existed.  Thanks.
        \_ Probably because until recently the mailing list was an opt-in
           list, which probably has been changed to an opt-out list.
           \_ Motd should also be an opt-out thing. It was for over 2 decades
              until an idiotic root guy changed it back because his gf on
              soda feels insulted by the trolls.
              \_ Wow, that was a total non-sequitur.
2005/9/19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39752 Activity:high
9/19    motd boring.  Where have all the flame wars gone?!
        \_ Yay! Today's motd is very civil. Let's see, we've talked about
           linux, sleep disorder, fedora, etc. Motd is being useful again!
           As long as left wing right wing nuts stay away motd is cool.
           \_ Nope, motd boring.  And clearly, you love George Bush, you
              \_ And clearly, you're a left-wing nut who loves sodomy,
                 wears "Earth Day" clothes and actually recycles.
                 \_ In Nazi Germany, they didn't recycle either.
2005/9/14-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39664 Activity:high
9/14    Yet another motd/wall poll. Put 'a' if you're alum, 's' student:
        We new blood: aa
        Keep current elite members:
        l33t h2x0rz: 1111111111111
        \_ We don't want need blood. We love the old alumni and their
           vile and harsh words. It is what makes motd the way it is.
        Keep current elite members:
        l33t h2x0rz: 1111111111111
        \_ Why would they want to?  Aren't the democraticunderground and the
           freepers still taking new members?  All rational discourse is long
           since dead here.  Even on tech questions we have people telling
           others they won't answer a question because they hate the person.
           Feel the love!  I read but find little reason to post anymore.
           \_ I've had very little trouble getting information on a number of
              technical and non-technical issues.  Motd has more than its share
              of invective, but I do see a fair amount of 'rational discourse'.
              "I'm finished, cry for my absence" announcements really do
              very little to remedy the problem.  It looks like they attract
              invective and hostility rather than calming things down. Perhaps
              you should consider modifying your behavior on this group,
              finding a little more tolerance and patience, or really make
              good on your nth promise to leave and actually do so.  -mice
              \_ It was no such thing as the "taking my ball and go home" as
                 you make it out to be.  I've posted more today than in the
                 last year, nor did I sign which should show the lack of "ball
                 taking home"ness.  In the context of "wouldn't it be nice to
                 have fresh blood around here?" my response is "given the
                 stuff that gets posted here, why would someone new want to
                 join in?".  You're reading too much into it that isn't there.
                 \_ Okay, fair enough.  I guess I just react harshly to
                    that general sort of declaration ("I don't post any
                    more", "ball go home" etc) since I see that frequently,
                    but almost never see anyone actually do it (this whole
                    thread would seem to attest to the fact that you do
                    find reason to post here, in contradiction to the
                    assertion).  Sorry for jumping the gun on you, man.
           \_ You find little reason to post anymore? Like the last 5 lines
              that preceded this post?
              \_ I'm not sure which 5 lines you're talking about.  The motd
                 changes too fast.
           \_ Look up "hissyfit".  -John
              \_ Whatever.  If you think the level of discourse isn't well
                 beyond personal then be happy.  In fact, that someone would
                 dare comment on the level of personal animosity on the motd
                 and then get a snippy comment like this in response makes
                 my point, thanks.  And yes, go look up hissyfit.  This isn't
                 it.  This is simply my opinion backed by an example or two
                 that were on the motd at the time I posted.
                 \_ Woe is you.  There are 2-3 borderline psychopaths that
                    post to motd (jblack hater guy and some of the other random
                    trolls.)   Just because you were offended by some of the
                    idiocy you see here (grown-up versions of the nerdy little
                    shits with glasses who liked to tease people on the
                    playground because you weren't allowed to slug them)
                    doesn't automatically mean it's all crap.  Of course you're
                    welcome to your opinion.  -John
                    \_ Again, in the context of "adding fresh blood to the
                       motd", why would anyone new want to join in?  Offended?
                       Nope.  Somewhat disappointed that what used to be a
                       good place for lots of tech info on a daily basis and
                       heated but mostly rational political debate is much
                       different now.  But my feelings are merely a distraction
                       to the point: why would anyone new want to join a
                       community with "2-3 borderline psychopaths" who seem to
                       have way too much time on their hands?  Look at the
                       motd the way a new person might and ask yourself if
                       you'd want to join in conversation and community of
                       strangers like that.  I'm *not* saying we need a policy
                       or enforcement of some rule or whatever.  I'm only
                       saying exactly what I've said about new people and
                       nothing more.
                       \_ Maybe it's just me, but I think there's the occasional
                          interesting tech-type thread, the rare intelligent
                          political thread, and the pretty frequent pseudo-
                          anonymous chest thumping random thread that's
                          actually pretty funny.  Too bad you see these as
                          turn-offs, you should join me in a contest to see
                          who can collect the most interesting troll
                          following.  -John
                          political thread, and the pretty frequent pseudo-anonymous
\                         chest thumping random thread that's actually pretty
                          funny.  Too bad you see these as turn-offs, you should join
                          me in a contest to see who can collect the most interesting
                          troll following.  -John
                          \_ I'll certainly admit that you've got some
                             interesting ones, John.  I think ilyas has some
                             pretty good ones, too.                  -mice
                             \_ Right now I only have heil cherman john guy and
                                some random occcasional others.  I tried to
                                cultivate chicom troll, but he proved too
                                wild to tame.  Our loss.  -John
                          \_ Either you're so brilliant that you find
                             intelligent things hidden in the motd, or I'm
                             so dumb that I find motd to be stupid. Or maybe
                             Beir trinke Krauts like you find anything
                             stupid to be funny. I do like the link you
                             post though, they're always of quality, like
                             the German cars. Oh, and learn to fucking
                             conform to 80 columns you Scheiße
                             \_ What is Beir?  Is that Israeli?  -John
        \_ "why would anyone new want to join [motd], a community with 2-3
           borderline psychopaths"
           My answer is simple. Because these psychopaths are bored and
           lonely and need to meet new psychopaths who are just like them
           \_ Because anonymous psychopaths are damned funny.
2005/9/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39656 Activity:low
9/13    Anthro professor investigated student life by becoming a student:
        'In the book, I look at things that the university says it wants to
        focus on. They say, "We're a community of scholars, we're a community
        of diversity, we're about intellectual life." That's what the
        university thinks it is. From what I saw, the student's version of
        these concepts is very different.'
        \_ oh gawd, not to criticize necessarily, but did anyone else find this
           really boring?  basically:  students at fourth-tier university don't
           like to give the impression that they're studying hard so they're
           not branded as nerds/overachievers, they care more about grades than
           learning anything, they take loans to pay for tuition/housing, and
           part-time jobs to pay for iPods and random entertainment crap.
           \_ FWIW, Berkeley students are exactly the same way - only
              difference I can see is that Mommy and Daddy usually pay for the
              iPod and the random entertainment crap.
              \_ I didn't find a lot of Berkeley students to be particularly
                 wealthy, spoiled, or coddled. Some were. It's nothing
                 like private school, though. You should see the kids at
                 the private liberal arts colleges. I found UCB students
                 to be harder-working and less-privileged than many.
                 Addendum: I found a lot of academic, political, and
                 philosophical discussion at UCB. I submit the MOTD as an
                 example. That the professor thinks her students and those
                 at Yale aren't much different is what makes an NAU
                 professor and a Yale professor different.
                 \_ Ditto.  For all the extremism and stupidity I was extremely
                    impressed by the general character of the people I was at
                    Cal with.  FWIW, in the "real world" I've also generally
                    found the above to be peoples' view of Berkeley.  -John
2005/9/7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39551 Activity:high
9/7     Can the liberal and conservative over-writers PLEASE stop doing it?
        Your scp/ftp-provided anonymity isn't that important to both of you
        is it?
        \_ use motdedit, right?
           \_ even if you don't use motdedit, even vi, jove, or emacs
              will stop you from an accidental overwrite
           \_ motdedit is a tool of the fascist/socialist overlord
              root masters to subjugate the masses under their iron
              root masters to subjugate the massess under their iron
              booted fists! motd anarchist overwriters of the world
              unite! you have nothing to loose but other ppls posts!
                                         \_ And proper spelling!
                                            \_ sp3lling is a t007
                                               of the white male
                                               $indow$ overlord
                                               0ppre550rz! que5t1on
                                               4uthor17y! sp34k
                                               1337! RUN L1NUX!
                                               R1D3 B1K3!

        Boredcast Message from 'tom': Wed Apr 14 20:47:08 1993

        Nick, *just yesterday* I corrected you when you spelled it wrong
        twice in a row.  It's not dyslexia, or typos, it's you being a
        thick-skulled dimwit.  One O in 'lose' as it relates to the Bad News
        Bears.  Two O's in 'loose' as it relates to your mom.
        \_ sp3lling is a t007 of the white male $indow$ overlord
           0ppre550rz! que5t1on 4uthor17y! sp34k 1337! RUN L1NUX!
           R1D3 B1K3! PL4Y N377RE3K!
           0ppre550rz! qu35t10n 4uthor17y! sp34k 1337! RUN L1NUX!
           R1D3 B1K3! PL4Y N3TTR3K!
2005/9/6-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39527 Activity:nil
9/6     Did ilyas really challenge John to a gun duel, and then say he was
        leaving motd because it had turned into soda wall?
        Someone please tell me it was someone posing as ilyas who wrote that,
        or that he was totally kidding.
           \_ John, I challenge you to a gun duel.  Are you scared? -- ilyas
                    \_ Come get some.  You're right, I'm craven because I
                       don't go seek out random scrawny geeks I've never met
                       who challenge me to GUN DUEL on the soda motd.  Do you
                       challenge people to GUN DUEL often, Ilya?  -John
           People like ilyas and John are making motd as dirty as wall.
           This is the reason why politburo disabled motd for newbies.
        \_ No.  It was a troll.
           \_ So ilyas was trolling John about the gun duel?
              \_ No.  I think it was a third person acting as a poser troll.
                 \_ What do you mean "I think"?  Either you know (because
                    you're ilyas, the troll himself, or ilyas told you) or
                    you don't know.
                    \_ You're getting waaaay too worked up about this, man.
                       \_ Don't change the subject.
                          So does the guy know or is he just guessing?
                          \_ He knows.
                             \_ Okay, it's cleared up by the URL.
                                ilyas posted that it wasn't him but a troller.
                                For the record, ilyas did not aaron himself,
                                did not challenge John to a gun duel.
                                For the record, ilyas did not challenge John
                                to a gun duel.
                                "No.  It was a troll." guy could have saved
                                a lot of trouble by posting something to
                                that effect and/or the URL earlier.
                                \_ Uhm, that rather assumes I'm willing to go
                                   to the effort on your behalf.  Considering
                                   the nature of the whole thing, that's just
                                \_ "A lot of trouble"?  Didn't cause me any
                                   trouble at all.  *shrug*
                                   \_ no duh.
                                      \_ You're taking this all too seriously.
                                         Trust me, it's not worth the energy.
           \_ See URL to confirm that, for the record, it was someone posing
              as ilyas.  ilyas did not challenge John to a gun duel.
        Someone please tell me it was someone posing as ilyas who wrote that,
        or that he was totally kidding.
        \_ It was a poser troll, so be of good cheer.
        \_ That was an imposter. Ilyas always uses motdedit, a mechanism that
           KAIS MOTD logs very well. The duel post shows that whoever posted
           as ilyas, did not use motdedit.
           \_ It was a poser troll, so be of good cheer.
           \_ You sure he "always" uses motdedit?  I thought he used vi all
              the time and merged in changes where he could.
           \_ John, I challenge you to a gun duel.  Are you scared? -- ilyas
                    \_ Come get some.  You're right, I'm craven because I
                       don't go seek out random scrawny geeks I've never met
                       who challenge me to GUN DUEL on the soda motd.  Do you
                       challenge people to GUN DUEL often, Ilya?  -John
           \_ You sure he "always" uses motdedit?  I thought he used vi all
              the time and merged in changes where he could.
        \_ ilyas appears to have aaroned himself.
           \- ilyas stayed in the sauna too long. he is going to challege
              john in the russian style of naked sauna wrestling.
2005/9/4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39480 Activity:high 66%like:39476 66%like:39484
9/3     Cheney RIP. -- ilyas
        \_ Btw, if another cocksucker modifies my post, I ll nuke the entire
           motd like in the old days. -- ilyas
           \_ Libertarianism in action!  The motd is an anarchist paradise.
              Done worry, be happy and retaliate like a small child.
              \_ Don't worry, the cocksucker in question is running a
                 'no-shrink script.' -- ilyas
        \_ Btw, if another <bleep> modifies my post,
           I ll nuke the entire motd like in the old days. -- ilyas
           \_ Sorry, wasn't it Judge Rehnquist who passed away? -chaos
              \_ yes, psb thinks it's clever to change ilyas' post, and
                 ilyas thinks deleting the motd "punishes" psb in some
                 way.  What a pair of losers.  -tom
2005/8/25-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39272 Activity:low
8/25    Trying to follow threads on motd is confusing. In particular, I
        have no idea who the "pp" is refering to (like, what level of
        thread to go up to refer to the pp). Anonymous posting is good,
        but it'd be even better if you guys can stick to an alias.
        That way, it's easier to follow threads without having to guess
        who the poster was and what he stood for.               -alias
        \_ A consistent alias combined with KAIS motd would pretty easily
           destroy anonymity.  KAIS motd probably has a good guess about
           who wrote this post.  --not-really=anonymous
           \_ How about consistent alias wrt the post, but not the entire
              lifetime of the poster? That'll be nice.          -alias
              \_ Someone once suggested using hex numbers for exactly this
                 purpose.  I thought it was a good idea, but no one actually
                 did it.  -- 0x1
                 \_ Who are you!?
                    I am number 0x2.
                    Who is number 0x1?
                    You are number 0x6.
                    I am not a number, I am a free man!!
                    \_ NEEEEERDDDDSSSSS!!!!!!
                       \_ If you were not also a nerd, you wouldn't know what
                          I was talking about.  -0x6
                          \_ Good point!  -- 0x1
           \_ Ok. So who are you, really?                       -alias
           \_ KAIS motd is a piece of shit and whoever wrote it needs to
              get squished and die because it violates the spirit of
              saying whatever I want on motd.                   -kais hater
2005/8/17-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39158 Activity:low
8/17    Did Al Gore say it? Or was it the Unabomber?                          -jblack
        \_ Either you sign your name, or it gets deleted. Since you're so
           persistent and tried to repost the same trash at exactly 19:02,
           23:40, 23:57, so on and so forth, I've done you a favor and signed
           for you. God Bless.                                        -god
           \_ [self-deleted for further investigation] -- ilyas
           \_ Hey look politburo, root abuse! -- ilyas
           \_ when sys admins attack...
           \_ Hey look politburo, root abuse!  The only people with soda root
              I don't know are dlong, erikk and brett.  erikk hasn't been on
              since Monday.  So, ... I am fairly sure it's one of the remaining
              two who is abusing.  At least one current root agrees with me
              this kind of root usage constitutes abuse.  Incidentally, where
              are all the fuckers who were calling for my squishage due to
              motd deletions?  Cat got your tongue?  Or is this one of those
              'nuanced situations' I keep hearing about? -- ilyas
           \_ [self-deleted pending further investigation] -- ilyas
           \_ I sure hope you're not *abusing* root for something as stupid
              as the motd.  Which reminds me, just how many people have root?
              It shouldn't be more than Politburo.  With power comes
              responsibility, etc.
              \_ Arguably, it shouldn't be (all of) politburo.  Arguably,
                 not even VP _needs_ root (we've had some severely
                 non-technical VPs in the past)
              \_ I don't know, some allumni who have root are very
                 important to keeping everything running and helping out
                 new VPs.  mconst and njh come to mind.
              \_ Forgive my density, but what about the post above indicates
                 sb with root was involved? -- ulysses
              \_ It's freakin' soda, fool. Root abuse is their only perk.
                 \_ Don't be lame.  "It is soda so we have no standards" is
           \_ when sys admins attack...
              \_ It's not like FreeRepublic embraces everyone, you know.
                 \_ Which has exactly *nothing* to do with root abuse on soda.
           \_ You didn't sign your name, and I don't like what you're
              saying, AND I think you're a jerk.  Should I delete your
        \_ There's not a single mention of "internet"?  Wow.
        \_ boring
2005/8/5-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39015 Activity:moderate
8/5     Jvarga, don't listen to the flaming idiots. Most people in the CSUA
        appreciate what you are doing, even if not all your decisions are
        perfect. In particular, I would ignore tom, whose only purpose in
        life is to piss on other people's work while contributing nothing
        of his own. Thank you for contributing your time and effort to the CSUA.
           -- ilyas
          \_ gee, thanks ilyas.  now take your foot out of your mouth, since
             I'm not one of the people flaming jvarga.  Fuckwad.  -tom
             \_ I thought your 'commentary' on jvarga was, if not outright
                flaming, pretty abrasive (this is on wall). The problem is,
                your abrasiveness is such a part of your personality, you
                don't even notice when you are like it anymore, it seems
                normal to you.  -- ilyas
                \_ what, where I compared NIS as a possibly questionable
                   technical decision, to paolo being a complete fucking
                   idiot?  And where I said he was doing better than the
                   last N VPs?  -tom
                   \_ Tom, I am sorry, I misread what you were saying.
                        -- ilyas
             \_ Hey tom, which of jvarga's actions were "fucking idiotic"?
                In all the time I've used soda so far (since 1998 or so),
                jvarga seems to be the friendliest and most active csua
                official ever. Well in terms of soda, I dunno wtf goes on
                with the actual, you know, group stuff. But in general
                insulting someone who is helping our asses for free makes
                you the fuckwad.
                \_ Read it again.  I was calling paolo a fucking idiot, not
                   jvarga.  -tom
                   \_ oh, I guess ilyas had me going.  ilyas is back to
                      fuckwad for the day.
                       \_ He is NOT a Jew, so he has no credibility. -jew #1
        \_ I agree, maybe not about tom, but running soda is a tough job,
           and I appreciate all the work that is going into it. --jwm
        \_ I would say, you're doing it for free, thanks.
           Nothing's perfect, but if shit starts breaking that used to work,
           we're coming for you, jvarga!  Is that fair?
           \_ What is to not agree about tom? Everything ilyas says is
              correct or has been proven to be correct in general. He
              hates everything, and replies "this sucks" to everything
              we do. Take the google/housing map for example.
              \_ Tom can be very abrasive, agreed.  But I wouldn't say
                 "[his] only purpose in life is to piss on other people's
                 work while contributing nothing of his own."  Those of us
                 that have a long history with the CSUA know this isn't true.
                 \_ No matter what someone has done for the CSUA, that is
                    *never* an excuse to mistreat another human being.
                    \_ DUde!  It's a GREAT excuse to mistreat a human being!!1!
                       I can't think of a better reason to kick the walker out
                       from under some old lady in the middle of an
                       intersection!  "I gave $100 to the CSUA....BITCH!!!
                       <whap!>"  Goddamn, now I feel like donating to the
                       CSUA again.....
                 \_ Fine, we can't agree that tom's an asshole. Let's try
                    to agree on something else, like, iff CSUA were run
                    like Survival the TV show, then tom would be the first
                    to be voted out. Can we agree on that?
                    \_ Actually, I'd vote your ass off first, since tom
                       has actually done something more useful than whine like
                       a little puppy.
                    \_ Tom has actually given quite alot of good technical
                       advice here.  He may be caustic at times, but he
                       knows his stuff and is willing to share information.
                       Personally, I'd be sorry to see him gone.   -mice
                       \_ No matter what someone has done for the CSUA, that
                          is *never* an excuse to mistreat another human being.
                          \_ I see far more people mistreating fellow human
                             beings (tom, ilyas, emarkp, to name a few) than
                             I see defending them or their rights.  It seems
                             strange to me that you'd be quick to jump to the
                             defense of their (often vicious) detractors, and
                             yet be silent when they come under attack
                             unprovoked.  Not two posts up there's someone
                             mistreating another human being....where's your
                             outrage for that?  Or is your outrage only
                             reserved for those that defend people that you
                             personally don't like?
                       \_ The ratio of useful comments over caustic remarks
                          so low, it's almost 0. So, I'd be happy when he
                          gets a life and moves on, or get squished. Wait
                          I'd be happy when I get a life so I don't have
                          read and post on the stinking motd.
                          \_ You know, the ratio of useful comments over
                             {caustic, stupid, bullshit, whatever} remarks on
                             the motd is pretty low.  As for the weenies who
                             attack people randomly and anonymously, that's a
                             whole different story.  -John
                             attack people randomly and anonymously, that's
                             a whole different story.  -John
                          \_ He knows a little bit about this and that and
                             all are certainly entitled to shoot the breeze
                             about the political issues of the day.  But he
                             goes beyond that.  He sometimes has valid points
                             limited to user interface issues, but given the
                             actual programming is well-beyond his abilities
                             he should offer them in a more humble spirit.
                             And on plenty of occasions he is simply
                             wrong in his design criticisms, and is either
                             unable to admit to the errors or is unwilling to
                             see things from a non-Tom centric perspective.
                             It would be smartest to just ignore the pompous
                             and ignorant comments about technical matters
                             (relating to filesystems, programming language
                             design, networking protocols, operating system)
                             in the face of many humbler and better informed
                             people on soda, but I find it difficult to do so.
                             \_ I am also a pompous ass with strong opinions
                                on language design.  Why I rant about the
                                loathsomeness of Perl practically daily.
                                  -- ilyas
                                  \_ Okay ilyas, show us  on the doll where
                                     perl touched you....
                                  \- Aren't you a graduate student in
                                     computer science who presumably has
                                     taken a compiler class and a class
                                     on abstract languages? That seems to
                                     give you at least nominal qualifications
                                     to make informed judgments. When it
                                     come to some of your out-of-core-competency
                                     opinions, we'll ignore you. ok tnx.
                                     \_ prz be to stick an ice pick in your
                                        eye for using 'core competency' in a
                                        non-ironic way.  kthxbai. -- ilyas
                                        \- do you love I BERLIN? business
                                           people [jim collins] have coopted
                                           his HEDGEHOG.
                    \_ Yes, that seems likely. But we have consider that
                       a fair number of people have already been voted off.
                        \_ who?
2005/7/26-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38833 Activity:moderate 57%like:38555 53%like:38796
7/26    More administrativa including upcoming downtime.  Read the official
        motd you hozers. - jvarga
        \_ jvarga et al -- what sorts of booze?  I'd be glad to donate some
           cash for a discretionary entertainment fund for our hardworking
           rootish adminy volunteer people....     -mice
           \_ I dunno.  I don't drink alcohol at all, and njh is going to be
              out of town.  Chances are that I will be making these changes
              in my underwear from the comfort of my home. - jvarga
              \_ You shouldn't request booze if you don't want any.  Your
                 punishment to drink the vodka in the filing cabinet! ...
                 No, I guess being the CSUA sysadmin is punishment
                 enough... :P
                 \_ I usually request booze to make the rest of root easier
                    to work with. - jvarga
                    \_ Back in my day, we just used the bat for that.  When
                       twohey wasn't busy using it on his project partners,
                       that is...
           \_ I think the last time root types assembled with alcohol, we had
              wine.  Perhaps a dessert wine, like a port.
              \_ fag.
                 \_ I don't get it.  What would you prefer?
                    \_ I think ya do, Trebek!  I think ya do!
                       \_ Buckfutter!!1!
                    \_ It's a joke, son.
        \_ jvarga - are you going to be in Berkeley next tuesday afternoon?
           I'd like to thank you (and give you a donation for the csua) in
           person. --ranga
           \_ I get out of classes at 4pm, after which I'll likely be in the
              office slamming my head against things after the home dir move.
              - jvarga
           \_ stalker alert!
           \_ ranga I'm poor, can you please treat me to Fondue Fred
              tomorrow?                                 -poor student
              \_ poor student: so presumably you have some free time and
                 talent to donate.  do do anything for the CSUA or are
                 talent to donate.  do you do anything for the CSUA or are
                 you just a leech?
                 \_ he's a poor student precisely because he has no free
                    time and/or talent with which to make money.
                    \_ I'm a poor student because I spend all my time doing
                       stuff for the CSUA rather than getting a real job.
                       - jvarga
        \_ Any idea when /ftp will be up again?  Thx.
2005/7/25-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:38805 Activity:low
7/25    I don't know anything about Green Days or their lyrics. Are they
        really "green"? Like do their songs sing about environment,
        conservation, mother nature, fuck you Bush, and other things?
        \_ Maybe they'll have some information on the internets.
        \_ No, Green Day refers to smoking marijuana all day, and they're
           a punk band. They have little or nothing to do with the
           Green Party, Greenpeace, or Green Acres.
           \_ Fuck them then.
           \_ Dookie!
        \_ Why don't you ask them in person? They used to hang out near
           the dumbsters behind Safeway in Berkeley.
           |_ I thought the Berkeley dumbsters hung out on the motd.
           the dumpsters behind Safeway in Berkeley.
2005/7/6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38441 Activity:high
7/6     Why isn't the public motd on the csua website?
        \_ Because "The uncensored messages below this line may not
           reflect opinions of the CSUA."
           \_ but, butbutbut, we could put the warning too.
        \_ After 9/11 and what paolo did, there has been a reluctance
           from politburo to confirm or deny the existence of motd.
           \_ These axes, they grind them forever and ever...
2005/6/28-29 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38333 Activity:nil
6/29    Hey danh!  Can you stop posting links to gorey images as
        responses to threads?  Isn't one of the motd rules not being a jerk?
        \_ Dan's not here, man.
        \_ 1) Dan hasn't logged on since last night
           2) clicking a danh link is done at your own peril
                \_ I don't post random links to the motd without
                   some description, and I use tinyurl, not,
                   since I have a tinyurl firefox extension. - danh
                   \_ It was probably psb.  That's the kind of thing he
                      thinks is clever.  -tom
           \_ Um, so those procs running as 'danh' aren't his?
              \_ He just logged in. pbbbt.
                   \- Fear of a Danhimal Planet
2005/6/22-23 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38246 Activity:nil
6/22    Dear motd custodian, please wake up and do you job. Keep motd clean
        and neat. I've been doing your job for the past few days. Lazy ass.
        \_ Sorry, I've got this class presentation tonight so I haven't
           looked at the motd for a few days. I was hoping the 'liberal ==
           communist' and the 'bush == hitler' people would be censoring
           each other thus keeping the motd relatively clean.
2005/6/21-23 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Uncategorized/Profanity, Consumer/Audio] UID:38241 Activity:nil
6/21    Hey native russian speakers, what the hell is this:
        I can't figure it out.  .su is Siberia... I think?
        I didn't know Siberia had split off already!
        Who is this guy?  - danh
        \_ .su is leftover from soviet union.
        \_ Where did you hear about these guys, Dan?  They are a cult, by
           the way.  E-mail me for details. -- ilyas
           \_ share all the juicy details with the rest of the motd.
              \_ Eh, why should I?  Motd treats me like shit.  -- ilyas
                 \_ motd treats us all like shit
2005/6/17-19 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38167 Activity:high
6/16    Do any of you essentially not read books any more?  I find it
        interesting there are people who are bright and by any measure
        successful who read maybe .5 - 1 book a year, e.g. my housemate
        has an MBA from MIT/Sloane and is essentially retired at 48.
        I'm not sure he has read 2 books in the 2yrs I've lived here.
        He does watch various news and informational TV programs so he's
        not clueless about the world. This does not include "HowTo" books.
        \_ I generally don't make time for reading, though several times
           a year I go crazy and read all the books I buy in my off periods.
           In general, though, the books I do try to read when I'm not devoting
           most of my time to it are difficult reads that I go through them
           very slowly.
        \_ I am neither bright nor successful, but I don't really read
           very much.  -- ilyas
        \_ I read a lot when commuting on BART.  Since I had to start driving,
           I've pretty much stopped.
           \- I'm not talking about very much. I mean zero. And I'm not
              talking about do you knock off a Shakespeare now and them ...
              I mean people who dont even read The Da Vinci Code or Michael
              Crichton or other "airplane pilp".
              Crichton or other "airplane pulp".
              \_ When I read, I tend to read classics or books of an
                 informational nature. Most newer fiction is not for me.
                 The last book I read was 'Dune' (again) about a year ago.
                 I am not sure that reading books (especially fiction)
                 indicates much of anything at our age. I used to read a
                 lot more when I was younger and had the time. FWIW, I
                 don't watch TV or go to the movies either. I do read the
                 newspapers and magazines like 'The Economist' religiously.
                 BTW, how come your housemate is a 'housemate' when he has a
                 good degree from a good school? Is he lazy?
                 \- I'm not suggesting anything about "our age" ... this was
                    asked on the soda MOTD and I'd think the soda motd has
                    a marginally higher literacy rate than "our age". Of course
                    people here are more likely to have the web suck up their
                    time. And I am not talking about reading but reading
                    books. A lot of these smart-but-non-readers read the
                    newspaper and other practical books like the Idiot's
                    Guide to DVD burning etc.
                    I dont understand the "why is your housemate a housemate"
                    part of the question.
                    \_ What I mean by 'our age' is that a kid who reads a
                       lot is probably bright (not sure about which is the
                       cause and which is the effect). I do not think this
                       is true once you reach adulthood. If someone reads
                       10 bodice rippers a week does that imply anything about
                       his or her intellect or lack thereof? 'Number of
                       books read' by itself is meaningless at this stage of
                       intellectual development. Someone who reads the NYT
                       and Wall Street Journal every day is quite likely
                       doing more for themselves than the bodice ripper
                       person. As for your housemate, I am wondering why
                       he doesn't have his own place when he has a graduate
                       degree from MIT. That sounds rather odd. I'd worry
                       about that more than about how many books he reads.
                       \- I was not the one equating "reads" with
                          intelligence. If anything I was saying that I
                          found it odd a fair number of pretty intelligent
                          people *dont* read ... or if you go to their homes
                          you will not see 10 books. I agree a lot of people
                          who read pulp somehow think that is supirior to
                          wantching TV, when they are essentially the same
                          thing ... and then there are people who watch a
                          HISTORY CHANNEL show on Rome and think that is
                          50% of the way to reading R. SYME: THE ROMAN
                          REVOLUTION when it is closer to like 3%. Re: house-
                          mate: he owns multiple millions of dollars in
                          real estate. I can only assume he lets me live here
                          because of my wit and charm, since he clearly doesnt
                          need my meagre rent.
        \_ I haven't read a book 'for fun' since I graduated several years ago.
           Reading is on my 'todo' list but never rises to the top.  I have
           other things I'd rather be doing or need to be doing.
           \_ Interesting.  I didn't have time to read at college, but now
              that I work I read voraciously.
        \_ Before to law school I was reading about 1 book every 2 weeks
           or so (mostly non-fiction - science/history/&c.). Now I pretty
           much only read my casebooks or related material which amounts
           to around 300 pages a week (or more).
        \_ I had pretty much stopped reading for pleasure by my junior year as
           an undergrad.  Then I married a librarian.  I read like crazy now
           (and keep having to get more bookshelves).  -emarkp
                \_ Why does being related to a librarian always make people
                   read more? Is it because they bring home books, or that
                   they get good recommendations at work, or that they read
                   a lot themselves and pass the book on, or what? I've known
                   several sons/daughters of librarians, and they're all
                   avid readers.
                   \_ If you didn't love books, you wouldn't become a librarian
                   \_ Speaking as the son of a librarian, I think the
                      factors are mostly envionmental.  My mother read to
                      me a lot as a child.  There are always books around
                      the house.  We went to the library (as a family)
                      weekly.  We got books as presents.  Mom was always
                      reading books. etc. -jrleek
                   \_ In my case, she had a lot of great books that I'd never
                      read.  Now we recommend books to each other. -emarkp
        \_ No, we're too busy reading motd. =) But seriously, I read newspaper
           and website for things that used to be available on printed media.
        \_ Sometimes books have a hard time competing for my attention with
           all the other stuff there is to do... I don't read as much as I
           would have liked. I occasionally get into a mode of reading a number
           of books. If I get "stalled" in a book it tends to kill my reading
           habit for a while and I'll go play videogames instead or whatever.
           I stalled out of a few books lately when I tried reading more
           classic literature... I made it halfway through Karamazov before
           giving up. Master and Margarita didn't capture me after a partial
           attempt. For Whom the Bell Tolls I picked up after really enjoying
           The Sun Also Rises, but I kind of trailed off halfway through that
           also. I'm 3/4 through The Iliad translated by Robert Fagles, which
           doesn't seem as poetic as whatever unknown translation I read
           a little bit of in college. And the storyline gets a little bogged
           down with the endless battling and slaughter.
           I hope to just get those two done and then stick with lighter
           stuff for a while. I had fun reading short stories since they
           can be done in one sitting. Hard Boiled detective stories and Fritz
           Leiber's Lankhmar tales were the latest I read.
           Lately I've just been listening to audiobooks while I fall asleep or
           over breakfast... at least I get through stuff that way.
           \- imho, the iliad is not something you can read without "guidance".
              best is to read it in a class with a good teacher, but even
              reading a good introduction may be enough. i say this for two
              reasons: 1. it is a very "alien" work so you are likely to
              arrive at some incorrect interpreations unless you are waved
              off [like say with the metrical rather than descrptive function
              of the ephithets] 2. it is an amazingly complicated work and
              there are some structures/methods that you'll need some
              examples pointed out ... after you know what to look for,
              there are some structures/methods that you'll need some to be
              pointed out ... after you know what to look for,
              then you can look for these on your own [like some details of
              "ring composition", or the way HELEN is described in the
              famous "Teikoskopia"].
              \_ You're probably right... this book does have a relatively
                 long introductory/preface section and appendices etc. and
                 I did have part of the Iliad as class material at Cal (but
                 I really bailed on that class and I think the focus was
                 not on the literature but the mythological ideas). It does
                 describe at least some of what you're talking about. I have
                 describe at least some of what you're talking about. I
                 have to be in the proper mood for it... I also have the
                 Odyssey from the same guy. I did not compare translations
                 beforehand so I kind of wonder if I'm missing out on something
                 But it's hard to say what the "real" approach should be. The
                 guy of course argues his way best captures the feel. Oh well.
                 \_ psb is right.  It's not just a matter of being in the
                    'mood,' you need a lot of background on their society, the
                    way they thought, their entire moral and metaphysical
                    framework was completely different from ours.
                    \_ I meant in the mood to enjoy reading it. This motd
                       stuff got me into it again for now...
                    \- "moral and metaphysical framework" nicely captures
                       what is at issue in my first point about the "alieness"
                       of the "world of odysseus". but the structural elements
                       unique to oral composition [the parry-lord-parry stuff]
                       in general or homeric epic in particular [like the
                       telescoping of the 10 years of the conflict into the
                       short period covered by the iliad] is a different set
                       of issues. in fact there is one more, which is the
                       philological ... like greek language has "aspect"...
                       but that stuff is beyond me. and i think that has
                       \_ I wish schoen@@csua would login and post.  He would
                          know more about this I bet. -- ilyas
                          \- are you a russian? doesnt the russian language
                             have notoriously difficult aspect in addition to
                             tense? then this may be easier for you to follow.
                             the closest i've read to a philology heavy book
                             is G. Nagy: The Best of the Achaeans. very good.
                             \_ I think aspect distinctions exist in English,
                                too.  English just lacks a general mechanism.
                                I don't know how sophisticated greek aspect is
                                compared to russian aspect. -- ilyas
              I didn't know what aspect was, so I found this elucidating: _/
                        \-yes that was sort of my point. some of this stuff
                          is not like "oh yes the clever boy in the english
                          class got more out of reading Ozymandias than i
                          did" ... there is no hope you will get some of this
                          stuff because it just doesnt exist in your brain,
                          it's not a matter of insight and figuruing it out.
                       diminishing returns for a "normal person". i note that
                       even 5th cent BC athens is much less "alien" and
                       easier to understand. with some exceptions like the
                       \-BTW, I like the Lattimore trans the most probably
                         but I think Fitzgerald and Fagles are reasonable.
                       \-BTW, I like the Lattimore trans the most, but
                         I think Fitzgerald and Fagles are reasonable.
                         Perhaps the 100s of pages of Fagles cant compare
                         to the "highlights" you remember from college.
                         if you want to really go for the poetic one, look
                         at the pope translation. not user-friendly, tho.
                         FACTOID: T.E. Lawrence (of Arabia) did a prose
                         trans. of the Iliad and Odyssey.
                        \_ That may have been it; I will look into it next time
                           I'm in a book place. There are a couple of passages
                           I will know it by. I found Pope online and this too:
                           That last version has some ridiculous (IMO)
                           Shakespeare dialogue like "wherefore art thou" that
                           seems out of place. The Fagles stuff is certainly
                           very readable; I guess it seems too casual at times.
                           \- Butler->ass
                           \- Butler -> ass
2005/6/15-17 [Computer/SW/Security, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38139 Activity:nil
6/15    Attempting to sftp to Got password from key.
        Entered password and got back:
        Received message too long 1701996907
        \_ password from key.  since sftp uses ssh, shouldn't you just
           use your normal password?
        \_ Trying to do anonymous motd?
           \_ No, trying to send files from my PC to my CSUA account.
              \_ Just use scp.
        \_ I just tried ssh from SunOS 5 and it worked.
           \_ I'm trying sftp from CSUA. I'm running
              tcsh as my shell.
        \_ tunneling ftp through ssh for sftp is a total lost cause.
           just use scp.  google for winscp
           \_ he's not tunnelling ftp through ssh, he's using sftp.
                \_ he's doomed, it's not going to work.  USE WINSCP
                   \_ I use putty's psftp all the time.  As well as FileZilla
                      for xfering files to and from soda.  Why is he doomed?
        \_ Update: so scp seems to do the trick (on soda and from my Mac).
           Purely for curiosity's sake, any idea why sftp isn't working?
           \_ It works for me on windows.
           \_ sftp seems to be working fine too from freebsd machine
           \_ A ssh1/ssh2 mismatch? Just a guess, I have never used
              sftp. scp works fine for all my needs.
2005/6/6-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37993 Activity:kinda low 80%like:38032
6/6     Hello, my name is William Chow ( I never
        get any pain on my fingers while typing and a web site I found
        supports my position. Therefore, it is impossible to get CTS or RSI
        from IO. Also, everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot, and
        should get the fuck out of my mother country USA.       -williamc
        \_ You forgot to spout off about how you're the only one on the motd
           who knows any science.  Gee, I sure wish I'd spent my career
           being a fucking sysadmin instead of a physicist--then I'd really
           understand quantum mechanics.
        \_ 404 Not Funny.  Troll harder. -dans
        \_ This isn't really williamc, right?  This is someone else mocking his
           RSI statements?
           \_ Obviously.  williamc uses motdedit.
        \_ the level of maturity on soda is appalling at times.
        \_ the level of maturity on soda is appealing at times.
                \_ It's a big improvement from the dickylee days, trust me.
                   \_ dickylee was a wall jerk, not a motd jerk
                        \_ The comment didn't mention motd only
           \_ I think the word you were going for is "appalling", not
              \_ It was; someone did an edit of the original post.
        \_ Error 404.  Not Funny.  Troll Harder. -dans
2005/5/31-6/2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37908 Activity:kinda low
        I'm looking for volunteers to update MOTD WIKI, someone to update
        definitions like Ding!, ilyased, squish, etc. If you're interested
        please email me and I'll give you an account. Thanks.   -kchang
        \_ Stupid question.  How exactly does one email you?
           finger: kchang: no such user
           \_ /csua/bin/finger kchang
           \_ my name, at soda. If I don't respond it probably went to
              /dev/null thanks to spamassassin, in which case just
              post your login. Thanks.                          -kchang
        \_ oh, and you can ADD words too with the account.
           \_ I propose the first volunteer create a list of previously
              squished users to the Wiki, along with details on why the user
              was squished
              \_ Dear Anonymous Fuckhead Coward,
                 Every person of substance I have ever met has made mistakes
                 in his/her past.  Some of these mistakes were minor, some
                 were spectacular, ranging from outright stupid to
                 inconsiderate to just plain evil.  I count these individuals
                 as people of substance in part because they learned from
                 their past mistakes.  But more importantly, they now spend
                 their time engaging in interesting pursuits and creating
                 useful and beautiful works.  I often wonder if the current
                 state of affairs persists in spite of those past mistakes or
                 because of them.  So, other than trying to punish people for
                 sins of yesteryear, what have you been up to lately? -dans
                 sins of yesteryear, what have you been up to lately? -Dubya
                 \_ Actually I think it would be entertaining to read about
                    the history of squishage. I for one would like to be
                    remembered as the h0zer who is foolish enough to try
                    to bring down the entire EECS network by fingering it
                    once a second.                                  -kchang
                    \_ That was only a near squish.
                    \_ Tried to?  I _did_ bring down the network with a
                       simple program that does while true fork().  Why
                       would you want to be remembered as a h0zer?
                    \_ I can see how you would not want to be remembered for
                    \_ I can see how you would to not want to be remembered for
                       the actual time you got squished.
                    \_ apparently EECS does not like your 'finger', haha -troll
             \_ tien, can you beat this h0zer?
                \_ Uh, I guess not.  -tien
2005/5/31-8/25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37896 Activity:low
5/31    /csua/tmp is full!  Clean yer shit!
        \_ Either clean up yer shit, or I will clean it up for you and impose
           nasty and unfair quotas upon you all!  Muahahahah.  - jvarga
           \_ how about just deleting everything that's not world-readable?
        \_ Please delete /csua/tmp/dailyshow, or I will report it to campus
           authorities as a copyright violation enabled by the CSUA.
           \- just run "find /csua/tmp -mtime +60 -print0 | xargs -0 rm -rf"
           \_ i wish kai's motd would tell me who mr anonymous
              is. - danh
                \_ let's petition to politburo to change it to track every
                   single poster. I'm sick and tired of libertarian motd,
                   it's a chaos. Let's change it to totalitarian motd.
                   \_ ooh yeah, the first thing I think of when I look at
                      online forums which people are required to post
                      non-anonymously is "totalitarian."  Like those
                      slashdot nazis.
                      Of course, to be truly "free" we should just
                      make all the users on soda have the same UID, and
                      the market will enforce security for your files.  -tom
           \- just run "find /csua/tmp -mtime +60 -print0 | xargs -0 rm"
              that's what "tmp" means.
           \_ Interesting.  This got deleted and doesn't show up in kais motd.
              Hey kchang!  What else are you censoring?
              \_ Do you mean intellidiff or kais motd?  Kais motd seems to
                 be updated so infrequently that it's almost useless on
                 fine grain stuff.
              \_ Not very bright are you? The FAQ specifically says Kais Motd
                 fetches randomly, every 1-2 hours. In addition, there is no
                 connection between Kais Motd and 24HourDiff. 24HourDiff
                                    \_ So you throw the information away?  Your
                                       FAQ says nothing about them being
                                       separate.  Rather stupid implementation
                                        \_ What's your IP? Let me implement
                                           a special feature for you but I
                                           need your IP. Email me     -kchang
                                           \_ This sounds like the
                                              features I keep getting in
                                              the mail from Microsoft.
                 fetches at a much finer grain detail, and just because it
                 gets updated doesn't mean it'll show up on Kais Motd. I've
                 said this before and I'll say it again. Go read the FAQ,
                 it has implementation details. Dweeb.          -kchang
              \_ Agreed.
              \_ because its stupid.  because it makes people do cron jobs
                 like 'find /csua/tmp -user `whoami` | xargs -0 touch'
                 Lesson learned, I store stuff off of soda...
                 \_ Thank you.
              \_ What if I have a file named "Hello /". Notice the space
                 and the forward slash. Would that get parsed as
                 "\rm -rf Hello /" ?
                 \_ Dunno, but I just tried to test this and it seems that
                    "/" is not allowed in a filename. I couldn't do it no
                    matter how I escaped it.
                    \_ '/' is one of the few characters file and directory names
                       are absolutely forbidden to contain in UNIX filesystems.
                       You wont be abel to create a filename containing it
                       short of going outside the filesystem and directly
                       changing characters on the disk.
                    \_ '/' is one of the few characters file and directory
                       names are absolutely forbidden to contain in UNIX
                       filesystems. You wont be abel to create a filename
                                                \_ Can I be cain?
                       containing it short of going outside the filesystem
                       and directly changing characters on the disk.
                 \_ There are some issues with auto-deletion, but this is not
                    one of them.  It can be done safely but it takes some
                    caution.  (I don't really agree it's the right approach
                    for /csua/tmp).  -tom
                 \_ man find and look at the -delete option.  It's a safe way
                    to avoid the issue you're raising. -dans
        \_ how about du -sk /csua/tmp/* | sort -n
           and then wipe out the top 20 offenders?
           \_ using space in /csua/tmp doesn't make you an "offender."  -tom
           \_ Or until 50% is free.
2005/5/18-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37759 Activity:nil
5/18    Someone please explain to me what specific actions occured that made
        nweaver leave? I only have bit and pieces of info here:
        \_ he hasn't left
           \_ In fact he's currently logged on.
        \_ This is from fucking 1996.  Ohmigod, get a life!
2005/5/18 [Computer/SW/Unix, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37752 Activity:low
5/18    Hey kchang!  You posted a request for people to stop adding and
        deleting stuff from the motd.  But your request didn't show up in your
        archive.  Why not?
        \_ Because the request got deleted in between archive intervals.
           You can read the techical FAQ, the archiver is unfortunately
           not comprehensive. Also, I don't normally do this but I thought
           it's best that I took out the sicko ascii art in the archiver.
           It is listed as "Entry has been invalidated." For more info,
2005/5/16-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:37711 Activity:high
5/16    kchang, I realize this is beyond the bounds of a diff tool, but I
        think it would be pretty neat if when I use your diff I could get
        the things that have been added and then deleted, between my
        current and previous diffs.
        \_ I did have that feature in an earlier version but the output was
           very ugly due to the fact that there's a tendency for certain
           individuals to change their own stuff 5-10 times within 2 minutes.
           Unless there are compelling reasons and that you can convince my
           committee members to agree (they're on the bottom of the
           24HourDiff page), I'll just leave it as it is. If you want you can
           just go to the 24HourDiff page and seek linearly.    -kchang
           \_ Your fucking committee members?  When did your delusions become
              this grand?
              \_ Committee Members for 24HourDiff: brain, dbushong, ilyas,
                        jvarga, chiry, tom. And me.
                 Committee Members for Kais Motd: they're all listed here:
                 \_ Nowhere on here do I see who the Heroic Committee
                    for the Glorious People's Revolution members are.
              \_ I think all it takes to be a member of the 'committee' is to
                 suggest something and explain why it's a good idea. -- ilyas
                 \_ ilyas is smart. You can thank him for a lot of ideas
                    that turned into actual features here (like user
                    tracking). I just implemented, that's all.  -kchang
                    \_ In Communist Russia, user tracks YOU.
                    \_ your user tracking is beyond suck.
                       \_ if you know how to make it better, maybe you can
                          share your knowledge, or just shut the fuck up.
                          And if you think you can get away with everything,
                          you're wrong. scp, cron, sendmail, etc are all
                          logged under /var/log/*.log, accessible by
                          \_ I think user tracking is against the spirit of the
                             \_ I've got your spirit right here pal.  Who died
                                and declared you great arbiter of the motd and
                                all matters CSUAish? -dans
                                \_ I did.    -God
                                   \_ shell> /csua/bin/finger god
                                      finger: god: no such user
                          \_ Wow, so are you really abusing root to track
                             who edits a world-writeable file?  -meyers
                             \_ Come now, soda has a long history of root
                                abuse.  Why break from tradition now? -dans
2005/5/12-13 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37648 Activity:low
5/11    Utopia motd: When everyone is kind on motd
        Communist motd: When you need politburo's approval to write on motd
        \_ Where everyone contributes one word or letter to every post, but
           where a geriatric hald blind hunt and peck secretary types them in.
        \_ You are confusing communism with totalitarianism.
           \_ Well, I guess the theoretical communist motd would just be
              the utopian motd.  (Which is just the libertarian motd where
              everyone is nice.)
              \_ Nobody would be allowed to post more than his allotted quota.
                 Except Party officials might give themselves extra benefits
                 for their essential services to the People. And of course
                 all activity would have to be closely monitored in order to
                 ensure this fairness and eliminate destabilizing radicals.
                 Gee, this is looking more like totalitarianism already! Well,
                 our people would have dignity instead of being capitalist
                 running dogs.
        Capitalist motd: When you need to pay to write something new on motd,
                and charge others for replying to your stuff
        \_ More like: posts are given position on the motd based on popularity.
           \_ Posts are given permission based on how much you paid.
           \_ Posts are given position based on how much you paid.
        Fascist motd: When all of your actions are reviewed by the big bro
        \_ Fascist motd: When you are handed a statement to post and sign.
        Socialist motd: When politburo controls how many times you can use
                and abuse motd
                \_ Provided you don't use e's on wednesdays or s's on
                   Fidays, and every other word is given back to politburo.
        Seniority motd: Posting position is based on how long you've been
                in the CSUA.
        \_ It's just like the capitalist motd, except the Politburo owns the
           motd and collects the fees, and if you're too poor to pay then they
           grant you a certain minimum amount of posting. The capitalist motd
           would be auctioned off to the highest bidder(s) in chunks and they
           would run the thing themselves, taxed and policed by Politburo.
        Libertarian motd: When anyone can do whatever he/she pleases to motd
        \_ Libertarian motd is where we are today.
           \_ great, an object lesson in why libertarianism is ridiculous. -tom
              \_ It's been libertarian for years, and yet you continue to
                 obsessively read and post.  Would anyone bother to read or post
                 to any of the other above choices(I'm ignoring the utopian
                 \_ probably, everyone except cowardly, abrasive
                    right-wingers would be just fine with it.  -tom
              \_ What is wrong w/ the motd as it exists? Yes there is
                 a bunch of crap on it, but that can be easily ignored.
                 Yes sometimes people overwrite each other, but that
                 isn't a huge problem b/c most people are basically
                 considerate and try to avoid this.  All in all it
                 works and has worked for years.
                 Personally I think kchang's attempt at detecting
                 who is making a post is a good one.  It has made
                 the discussion more civil and the topics more
                 interesting/technical (as it was years ago).
                 \_ The motd has been held hostage by people who feel that
                    the motd didn't agree with them and that they should have
                    the power to do whatever they want to it.  Liberatarian
                    values emphasize personal responsibility.  An anonymous
                    motd seems to encourage irresponsible and petty behavior
                    instead of civilized discussion.  -rollee
                 \_ I strongly disagree. If the motd is more civil, it's
                    because a couple of people like aaron and ilyas have
                    stopped posting, which is unrelated to anything kchang
                    has done. If people want to post semi-anonymously,
                    there's still plenty of ways to do it, as discussed in
                    other threads. Personally, I've stopped using motdedit
                    just because I don't like the idea of being tracked by
                    kchang. If postings to the motd are going to be tracked,
                    it should be done officially with some kind of version
                    control system, not by some buggy script maintained by
                    a stalking dweeb.
                    \_ The irony is razor sharp. -- ilyas
                    \_ The problem, as I see it, is that while it is
                       desirable to have a anonymous forum for the free
                       and open discussion of all sorts of topics, it
                       is necessary to inject a note of civility into
                       the forum so that newcomers are not turned off.
                       The vitality of this (or any forum) depends on
                       new blood - w/o new perspectives we will end
                       up w/ a bunch of rehashes of the same arguments.
                       The optimal solution would be for everyone to
                       voluntarily behave in a civilized manner, which
                       would encourage newcomers to adopt the same
                       attitude. The history of the motd indicates that
                       this may not be possible.
                       I believe that an official tracking system would
                       create a disincentive to a free and open debate.
                       I see the kchang hack is a compromise.  There is
                       still some level of plausible deniability, but
                       you can still get called on the particularly bad
                       comments. This possibility should help to elevate
                       the discussion.
                       \_ "The kchang hack" is annoying and intrusive and
                          pointless.  That said, it's based on freely
                          available information; furthermore, nobody's forcing
                          anyone to use motdedit (or even post.)  And I don't
                          see it violating any CSUA policies.  Best way to
                          deal with it if you don't like it?  "Yeah I wrote
                          xyz, so fucking what?"  -John
        \_ amckee's motd: When everyone is kind on motd, or else.
        \_ amckee's motd: When everyone is kind on motd (to amckee), or else.
        \_ The Communist, Fascist and Socialist motd's are pretty similar.
        \_ I find it funny that most of the criticisms are posted
           anonymously, which really diminish the weight of the post  -kchang
           \_ Really? It seems that most criticism comes from those who are
              not anon (tom, emarkp, ilyas, john, to name a few). I'd say
              more than half the ppl who sign their posts have been critical
              of your script.
              \_ I for one really like the idea of kchang's script, outside
                 of having logged motd entries.
                 It would reduce the amount of blatently offensive trolls.
                 Maybe we can have a separate motd.not.logged file that people
                 can chose to read or not.  -rollee
                 \_ Right...until someone gets offended and starts to agitate
                    for some sort of moderation, and then a new scripter
                    creates a tracking script for it, and then the people that
                    left to hang out in their anonymous utopia start to get
                    pissed off, then it all gets mean and angry(ier), and then
                    some new clever fellow pipes up "hey, let's separate
                    motd.not.logged into motd.not.logged and
                    motd.really.really.not.logged" which of course will fail
                    since no one can stop another random dude from exercising
                    his freedom and scripting or logging THAT one....
              \_ That's because I don't give a rat's ass about who thinks what
                 about what I post.  I still think your script is dumb, but
                 I certainly won't argue about whether or not you should be
                 allowed to run it.  -John
2005/5/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37636 Activity:nil
5/11    Proposal for amckee: add in an experimental /etc/motd.experimental
        where one needs to use a lock/unlock mechanism. Make tracking
        anonymous (but auditable by root if threads start to violate UC
        Regent laws). Then:
        cat motd.official motd.public motd.experimental > motd
        We can play around with it for a while, and see how it goes.
        \_ you don't need to enforce lock/unlock if you enforce editing
           via one command.  motdedit merge works fine, so no need for
           locking. -nivra
           \_ There's already some form of locking in motdedit, although I
              haven't looked at it much to see how it works (or breaks down).
              As the simplest mechanism, we'd only need to make motd.exper
              writable by some special user, suid motdedit to that user, and
              add the all-users group to the sudoers list for that file cmd.
              \_ motdedit uses the normal file lock that standard text editors
                 can use.  It's not an absolute lock that prevents others
                 from editing, obviously.  My point is that one of the reasons
                 people didn't use motdedit, esp. when threads are in heavy
                 debate, is the pain of having to wait while others edit
                 and have the motd locked.  motdedit -n doesn't require a lock,
                 and still prevents overwrites. Thus, you can implement your
                 solution without requiring locks, as long as everyone is
                 using motdedit. I shoulda just made "-n" the default. -nivra
                 [Re-posted after it was overwritten, ironically, enough]
           \_ speaking of which, it just merged my post with this one below
              it. -nivra
        \_ One thing I was thinking of was to create a bona-fide
           threaded interface, something with a database behind it where
           users can post anonymously (but not delete their or other records).
           Nothing revolutionary, by far, but tailor it for something like Lynx
           and automatically generate a 'read-only, most recent' list piped
           to motd.public - something that looks exactly like this. Perhaps
           make it only locally accessible, though (the interface, not the motd).
           Sounds controversial, though, and your idea might be better in the
           short-term, if nothing else.
              \_ Haha, fabulous. It always amazes me the sheer quantity of crap
                 on here yet to be discovered (by me, at least). So, uh, why
                 don't we just make people use that?
           \_ of course, most people probably look directly at the .public file
              and it'd be a shame not to be able to do interleaved threading...
           \_ it's called "wall"  -meyers
2005/5/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:37633 Activity:very high
5/11    Mr. McKee,
        You're getting awfully heated in the below conversation.  As
        root, former VP, and now president, you should really cool your heels
        before making pronouncements.  You're treading where a number of others
        have trod to no good effect.
        Words from those with authority (as limited and petty as that authority
        may be) must be wielded cautiously, or you'll find yourself either
        without that authority or with authority over a worthless entity.
        --Another former VP.
        \_ Hey, fuck off. Unlike previous apathetic/pathetic VP/president, this
           new guy is actually showing some interest in making changes. People
           hold on to the past dearly, but it's year 2005 and our motd
           still using 1970 technologies. It's time to let go and move on, and
           give our new guy the benefit of the doubt. Go McKee. I SUPPORT YOU.
           \_ See, unfortunately, lacking historical perspective, you don't
              know that these are either non-changes or changes doomed for
              \_ Drink the kool-aide or I'll make new soda a Windows 2003 box!
        \_ I have made no secret that my primary loyalty is to current students,
           these are the people that keep the CSUA alive and purposeful.
           Alumni have many valuable things that can still contribute to the
           CSUA and our students, but we musn't lose focus on what our ultimate
           agenda is - the betterment and enjoyment of current CS students.
           Soda serves as a bridge between the old and the new, but the priority
           still goes to the new. What sort of environment does soda present
           to users we're trying to bring into the CSUA fold, when they see
           tripe and vitriol in such a public form? What sense of community
           develops, when the only impression people get about the CSUA
           soda community is that they're a bunch of assholes? It's not the
           community I want to foster under my watch, and I make no bones
           about working against efforts that seek to undermine the success
           of the CSUA. Perhaps I'm an autocratic nazi like this, but I also
           don't see how mindless insults in the MOTD can be defended.
           \_ The sentiment is quite commendable, but as someone in a
              leadership role (and as an experienced internet user), showing
              restraint is part of the job description.  In general,
              injecting more vitriol into a vitriolic conversation is not
              the best way to calm the situation, show leadership, or
              impress anyone with your own maturity.  As an alum, I'd gladly
              donate services or money to the csua...provided I could be
              convinced that my time/money/effort was going to be put to use
              in a mature, considered way.  It's gratfying to see that csua
              leadership is passionate about the csua, but don't let your
              passion become part of the very problem you're fighting.   -mice
           \_ You're treading the censorship line.  There are many statements
              made on the MOTD that cannot be defended.  They can, however,
              be ignored.  The sense of community, that's up to those of you
              on campus.  It's always been the toughest thing to succeed at
              with this group.  But your autocratic leanings are only going to
              leave _you_ stressed and disappointed.  No one else will care.
           \_ I think the legitimate criticism is in the words you use
              ("go fuck yourself"), not necessarily in your philosophy.
              \_ I've never been one to spare a snide come back, but you're
                 right. I removed that part.
                \_ carrots are crunchy and full of vitamins.  They taste really
                   great when juiced with some beets, an apple, and a smidge of
2005/5/11 [Computer/SW/Security, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37630 Activity:high
5/11    I know kchang's de-anonymizer is putting a crimp in your style, but
        can you people who scp to /etc/motd.public please stop overwriting?
        \_ A little thought should help you realize that's impossible.
           \_ A little quality thought should help you realize that:
              "Overwriting" is being used in the context of "screwing up
              other people's changes".
              If you turn off brain and assume the literal definition of
              overwrite, you might realize you're "overwriting" [literally]
              /etc/motd.public every time you save it in an editor.
              Finally, scp users can reduce frequency of overwriting
              [contextual meaning] by reducing the lag time between the scp
              "get" and "put".
              \_ Well, they should be diffing and merging as the final step
              \_ No, they should be diffing and merging as the final step
                 before putting. This leaves a pretty tiny window for potential
                 overwrites. But can someone tell me how kchang is logging
                 file access? What OS features help with this? I'm curious to
                 know for other possible applications.
                 \_ I signed a pact with Satan
        \_ Hm, how about this feature. If you put in "-anon" at the end of
           your post, then my Ashcroft script will not reveal your id? -kchang
                 \_ Note that "tiny window for potential overwrite" is a
                    longwinded way of saying "that's impossible".
                 \_ it shouldn't be hard to modify motdedit to do this.
        \_ Play nice, or we'll take away your cookies. Or, perhaps, make it
           so that you can't scp the motd. - almighty root
           \_ hmm, maybe make it so that the motd is only editable through
              motdedit and make that a suid file w/ sudo'er perms for everyone.
              everyone should then be anon, and no more scp. yes, I'm replying
              to myself. =)
              \_ I concur. Let's enforce some type of lock/unlock mechanism.
                 \_ Make the trains run on time while you're at it.
                    \_ locking and semaphores - the first step towards fascism.
                       \_ You missed the "enforce" part didn't you?
                          \_ So tell me, if you've done any work with databases
                             or file systems, how useful is a lock that is not
                             \_ Hey, I didn't realize the motd was that
                                important to you.
              \_ fuck motdedit.  In the ear.  It's not a technical problem.
                 \_ Technically, yes it is a technical problem. Access is
                    provided throuh a mechanism that causes corruption. Any
                    time such a mechanism exists and is exploitable, it puts
                    the infrastructure at risk. Asking users nicely not to do
                    it is not a solution Either you live with the corruption
                    or you fix it. As a CS grad, you should know this.
                    \_ Uhm, we're talking about are you talking
                       about?  This isn't a general "all locks and
                       synchronization are bad" thread, this is a "motdedit
                       is a shitty technical solution which doesn't even
                       really address all the problems" thread.  As a high
                       school grad this should be obvious to you.
                       \_ First of all, tell us why motdedit is broken, and
                          maybe we can come up with something better.
                          \_ Because of patronizing motdedit users.  Anything
                             without patronizing evangelists that works would
                             be better.
                       \_ As important as MOTD is for a bunch of users here,
                          most of whom are CS grads, I'd wager any technical
                          problem could be ironed out quickly. Anyways,
                          whatever, this is your guys' problem. I don't use
                          MOTD and everytime I read it, I feel less inclined to
                          put as much time into maintaining this system as I
                          do. I was offering solutions to a real problem of
                          corruption. But hey, if you people like broken, then
                          broken you get.
                          \_ Broken >> supercilious motdedit nazi assholes
                             Go or stay, use it or don't use it, it's a free
                             country, and nobody is particularly pining for
                             you either way.  Go, and be happy, my son.
                             \_ No offsense, but go fuck yourself. As root, VP,
                             \_ No offsense, but go eat a carrot. As root, VP,
                                and now president of the CSUA my policies on
                                sorrying non-student accounts is much more
                                draconian than that of my predecessors. You
                                may have been a student once, but our ultimate
                                mission is to provide service to current
                                students - and when people make this a hostile
                                environment, I won't blink to kick them off our
                                server. Although I value the insight and
                                participation of alumni in the CSUA, I'd advise
                                you not to fuck it up for everyone. If you
                                disagree with an idea, then voice your reasons
                                - not some immature tirade and rant. This is
                                not your personal soap box, this is a server
                                for use by university students.

                          \_ I suggest we first solve the problem of people
                             posting lines longer than 80 columns or people
                             with their tabstop not set at 8.
                             \_ I suggest pliers or a heavy bludgeon.  There's
                                nothing like broken bones to keep columns
                                down to a reasonable size.
        \_ Hm, how about this feature. If you put in "-anon" or some type of
           identity at the end of your thread, then my Almighty Ashcroft
           script will not reveal your id? -kchang
           \_ How about we just squish your ass right now? -anon
              \_ I wouldn't do that. John Ashcroft is watching you.
                 \_ But...but...I put "-anon" at the end!  Pretty please let me
                    be anonymous? -anon
                   \_ Well I haven't implemented it, I'm just soliciting
                      opinions and should there be enough demand, I'll do it.
                      \_ Anyone who has worked with group-writable files
                         has come to the conclusion that locking and
                         logging is important; I'd like to see motdedit
                         (or something functionally similar like RCS)
                         required.  -tom
                         \_ Because the motd is mission critical!  Seriously,
                            if this were source code, I'd agree.  An anonymous
                            posting board where anyone can add or delete?  Feh.
                            \_ It blows me away how worked up people get
                               about a lame ass world writeable file.
           \_ kchang, I like to troll. the motd is too boring. can you include
              an 'exclude' list of names? ;) we need to revive the motd of
              better topics!!!
        \_ Perhaps the de-anonimizer is a good thing. Its like that old
           Donald Duck count to 10 before you explode cartoon. You have
           to think about whether or not your really want to write that
           comment before you do. It makes the discussion more civilized.
2005/5/10-12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37606 Activity:nil
5/10    Please make sure you read the official motd for important
        announcements regarding CSUA services and server infrastructure.
        Thank you - amckee, root staff
        \_ root! How are you? You should join our elite motd more often.
           \_ I visit you all the time!  I ask you questions!  I troll!
              - jvarga
                \_ Fix the wall archiver.
                   \_ aaron the great Creator of Wall Archiver, punishes
                      us for our sins by taking it away. He who asks for
                      the wall archiver, shall first repent, then seek aaron
2005/5/7-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37568 Activity:nil
5/6     Read on for an all-geek, all-tech, all-boring, no fun motd!  Thank you
        Mr. Motd Cleaner Man!
2005/5/3-4 [Uncategorized/French, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37495 Activity:nil
5/3     Merde.
        \_ Wasn't me, someone overwrote while ah' wuz in motdedit. -jctwu
           \_ Vous etes tous un bunch de frickin muppets.  -John
           \_ Vous etes tous un bunch de frickin muppetss.  -John
2005/5/3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37471 Activity:nil
5/3     puta.  Sheeeiit.
        \_ Wasn't me, someone overwrote while ah' wuz in motdedit. -jctwu
2005/4/25 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37357 Activity:moderate
4/25    I hereby re-file a motion to squish kchang, and this time, keep him
        squished for good. My charges are as follows:
        1997-- kchang uses a script to modify motd. This offense is so
        serious that the squishage should be permanent. 2003-2004--
        kchang's account is unconstitutionally reinstated. The person who
        unconstitutionally reinstated him should also be squished. 2004--
        kchang writes a web interface to expose our sacred motd to the world.
        This is like taking a private elite file and making it world
        readable, hence violating the "sharing your soda account with other
        people" law. 2004-- kchang tries to bring down the entire Berkeley
        network by fingering motd every second. 2005-- kchang writes a John
        Ashcroft script, thus violating our right to privacy. Let's reopen
        this case and this time, don't fuck up. PS this script is written by
        cat fuck_kchang.txt /etc/motd.public > tmp; cp tmp /etc/motd.public
        \_ Perhaps you should take this up with root.  Bellowing this here
           is akin to haranguing people in sproul plaza; while you might get
           a few people (possibly even quite a few) to agree with you, it's
           still basically just noise.  Rather than screaming your woes to
           a gang of other essentially powerless denizens, why don't you take
           your evidence of wrongdoing direct to the people that make
           these sorts of decisions?  You might save time and perhaps keep
           some needless invective off the motd; it already has more than its
           \_ twink
        \_ Uhhh, do I know you in person? If not, let's meet somewhere, like
           a coffee shop or something. Let's talk in person.   -kchang
2005/4/25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37346 Activity:high
4/25    Hey kchang, if you're going to track users, why don't you do
        something useful, and actually track who the anonymous MOTD
        censors are?
        \_ isn't that what the red bars are for?
           \_ learn to read. "track users"
              \_ I was referring to this:
                 look for the big red bar
                 \_ "edited" with one 't'.  And "Certified motd trollers"?
                    Also if it's just guesswork, sure you can put what you
                    want on your personal page, unless you're safari, but then
                    people can also put on the motd that they think guesswork
                    is shit :)  -John
        \_ yeah, it's the red bar, thanks for whoever responded. Also, I
           addded text motd to HTML motd feature. Now motd "fits in"
           regardless of 80, 20, or 100 column. Just go to the same page
           as usual, and click "html mode" on top. It's still experimental
           so comments welcomed.                                -kchang
        \_ I love this.
           has "emarkp?" 15 times.  None of those edits are mine.  What a great
           system. -emarkp
           \_ Ya, that's why there's a ? and it's in light gray. -!kchang
              \_ But that is so unintuitive! The whole site is TRASH.
                 \_ But you're such a dick.  WHAT HAVE YOU BUILT LATELY? -dans
           \_ Of course, you could just point to the latest diff, and note that
              ausman is listed as the first author of your post. -nivra
              \_ heh.  That's pretty funny.  Thanks for pointing it out.
           \_ you seem to think that the ONLY contribution to this site is
              user tracking. That is just one of many features. Also,
              according to the key, it is just saying *maybe* you wrote it.
              You can think of my site as the Wall Street Journal, the stock
              ticker section. It simply collects raw data and displays it in
              a different format, so that you can make your own
              interpretations. The WSJ doesn't tell you when a stock
              will go up/down, and neither does my site pinpoint the EXACT
              person who wrote/deleted motd. You know, we've already gone
              over this. Whatever. If you can do a better job, please do.
              \_ The WSJ doesn't try to guess individuals who are buying and
                 selling.  Since your site is such a dismal failure at
                 guessing, why not take out the guessing part? -emarkp
                 \_ Now, I'm no fan of kchang's stupid motd logging, but to
                    say that it's worse than the wall street journal is a
                    bit of a stretch.  Unless I see some evidence that kchang
                    is actually evil, and is using his website to try to
                    destroy America, I'm going to have to disagree and say
                    that the WSJ is far far worse.  I see no such evidence.
                 \_ First of all, you are not doing a good job convincing me
                    to take it off. Secondly, I will put whatever information
                    I want on my personal site. Thirdly, I may consider your
                    request if the majority of the people on my
                    credit/contribution list (it's on the bottom of the page)
                    give me convincing arguments.
           \_ It's clear to me -- by the question mark after your name in all
              15 instances and the light grey shading, and the underlined name
              of other users in bold preceded by a W: -- that you are ... ehh,
              never mind.  It's not worth talking about.
                \_ Maybe you have a higher IQ than the average motder. What's
                   your IQ? Just curious...
           \_ Geez emarkp, cut the dude a break.  It's experimental.  We
              all know it's not perfect. -jrleek
              \_ I get enough anonymous trolls as it is without morons taking
                 stock in the guessing of someone's over-hyped script.  The
                 fact that its guessing is so badly wrong makes me wonder why
                 it's included.  -emarkp
                 \_ whee... and apparently I wrote this one. -nivra
                 \_ I don't see how it changes anything for you, since you
                    always have the editor open, apparently you write
                    EVERYTHING.  Either you're schizophrenic, or you've
                    got pretty good plausible deniability. -jrleek
                    \_ whee... all motd edits are belong to me. -nivra
                       \_ And apparently none belong to me, though I'm
                          suspected in most of them. -emarkp
           \_ actually, for anyone who wants anonymity, plus courtesy, the
              current motd script is probably robust enough to modify
              to use scp from a different machine for the final post-merge
              version.  I should also mention that motdedit doesn't need
              a lock. motdedit -n, bypasses locks, and merges any conflicts
              with minimal error. -nivra
              \_ I alway use motdedit -n, I think the '-n' should be the
                 default behavior. It's fine. -chiry
        \_ I protest! Motd spying is unconstitutional.
2005/4/22-25 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37325 Activity:high
4/22    Per ilyas and dbushong's suggestion I modified motd diff:
        Constructive comment/suggestions welcomed here
        \_ what do the different colors/styles of the listed names mean?
           \_ color key is here: go down
        \_ Knowing what I have added to the motd today (very little), I can
           confidently pronounce this as a piece of crap.  Or at least that
           a simple way to defeat it is to edit the motd without a lock and
           background the editor (reloading inside the editor when I want to
           add a change). -emarkp
           \_ I never made the claim it's 100% accurate or undefeatable.
              In fact it's impossible to track everything unless you make
              mods to the OS to track writes, or build something on top of
              root writable motd.public that requires authentication. It's
              a difficult problem, and that's what makes it interesting.
              \_ But claiming to indicate users while being inaccurate is
                 disinformation, especially in some of the charged threads that
                 show up here. -emarkp
                 \_ what, science can't be probabilistic? The indicators are
                    merely what the script THINKS has happened, that
                    it has some confidence that underlined/bold/etc users
                    did something, and low confidence that grayed out users
                    did something. That's it. You're right, it's not black
                    or white. If you don't trust the script, that's fine too.
                    But calling it a piece of crap, that is a bit extreme.
                    \_ It's a piece of crap.  -tom
                    \_ I count 25 entries today with my name in it.
                       Considering that before this thread I made a whopping 2
                       edits, yes I think it's a piece of crap.  Oh, and sign
                       your name. -emarkp
                        \_ I'll gladly sign my name when you start using
                           motdedit or a shared lock system :)
                           \_ Give me a break.  Motdedit is problematic, and
                              faulty.  My editor lets me know if the buffer I'm
                              editing has changed on disk so I don't overwrite.
                              That works for me.  Sign your name. -emarkp
                              \_ Well. You don't use motdedit because you have
                                 your reasons, and I will not sign because I
                                 have my reasons. Let's just leave it at that.
                                 \_ Then do you have a problem with someone
                                    writing a script to divine your identity?
                                    \_ Not really, why should I care? It
                                       interfere with me anyways.
                                    \_ No. I guess we're all different
        \_ The page could use some UI improvements. How about format
           it like those web forums? What I meant is something like
  So that each
           topic is broken into its own colored sections. Also, fonts
           such as Arial would probably be easier to read. How about
           move the "clock" to the front in its separate column? At
           the end of the page, explain the color coding. Remove the
           extra line above and below the highlighted section. And if
           you are really bored, reformat each reply so that it is
           perfectly indented. -chiry
        \_ And if you yearn for anonymous motd again,
           \_ I wouldn't mind if I get a shell account.
2005/4/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37262 Activity:kinda low
4/19    Alright John & tom, you have your opinions and I respect them. I'd
        like to take this time to hear more constructive and useful
        comments from you guys, like what specific actions I can do to
        make Kais Motd less sucky by your high standards. And feel free to
        spare stuff like 'go stick your head in a pig, twink.' Thanks -kchang
        \_ Please, please feel free to quote me where I said that it's
           "sucky".  I believe it's your site that classifies my last (only?)
           comment on it as "UID 37247".  Have a look, get back to me.  I
           merely noted that it had munged some entries before.  It's fine,
           but fix the grammatical error.  Or are you naming me because I find
           some of the knee-jerk mob mentality lets-gang-up-on-tom shit to be
           pretty stupid?  Great.  -John
        \_ Wow, kchang outclasses Tom.
        \_ I'm really not interested in the application, but two obvious
           improvements would be to get rid of blink and get rid of all
           the annoying disclaimers.  -tom
           \_ 1) blink gone. 2) Until I can figure out a way to tell random
              hosers to stop emailing me hate mail because some of the posts
              are politically incorrect, I will leave disclaimers there.
              \_ How many of these emails do you get?  Why don't you post
                 the logins of these assholes here?
                 \_ i'm pretty sure he means random lackwits from the internets
                    \_ I still think he should post the funniest hatemail
                       he gets to the motd, along with the users email
                       address. It would be fun to taunt them and make
                       go nuts, ala tjb.
              \_ Duh, stick a password on it that only soda people would know
                 like "csuamotd/csuamotd" or something.
        \_ I am upset that because of your spying script, I cannot
           write the childish things that I want to write!! ;)
           \_ chiry or amirs or someone else-- you can just do:
              "echo '4/19   Hello world' >> /etc/motd.public"
        \_ How about dropping the dorky "guess who edited the motd" feature?
           \_ You mean like where people vote on who he/she thinks posted?
        \_ Why do you have the disclaimers 10 times?  Once is enough, and not
           in red.  Why are threads with disclaimers greyed out while threads
           without disclaimers in black?  Why can't I just enter UID 37247
           that John provided above and go to that thread?
2005/4/18-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37247 Activity:high
4/18    Please stop restoring trolls that tom holub worked so hard to get rid
        of! Respect tom, as he is older and wiser than you        -tom #1 fan
            \_ "Had you been as wise as bold,
               Young in limbs, in judgment old,
               Your answer had not been inscroll'd:
               Fare you well; your suit is cold."
               Cold, indeed; and labour lost:
               Then, farewell, heat, and welcome, frost!
               Soda, adieu. I have too grieved a heart
               To take a tedious leave: thus holub part.
        \_ sorry, kchang, I haven't done any deleting today.  Your spy
           script sucks as badly as your MOTD web site.  -tom
           \_ Tom, you really are an ass.  The MOTD web site may not be
              perfect and kchang may be sort of an odd guy but it is much
              better of a hack and more of a resource than your twink script
              or twink points or anything else you have done for the CSUA.
              \_ Kchang's site is a nice service, and appreciated, but it is
                 not perfect, and it has done a bit of munging before.  And
                 let's be honest, do a wc -l /etc/passwd for a rough idea
                 of how many potential h0z3rz you're dealing with.  I know Tom
                 can be rough (occasionally justifiably so) but for the same
                 reason I think he's self-confident enough to not go around
                 wantonly nuking motd threads.  Get off it.  -John
              \_ I was considering writing an asshole script for the motd,
                 but then tom would rate so high that it would totally
                 skew the graph and I'd have to go logarithmic.
              \_ You guys should feel sorry for Tom.  Anybody who takes the
                 MOTD and wallall so seriously can't have much of a life.
                 He's also so blind to his own problems.
                 \_ I love it when anonymous cowards who know nothing about
                    me comment on my life.  -tom
                    \_ Tom, deanonymizing in this case would not add anything
                       to the discussion and would be a distraction.  I don't
                       know anything about your life beyond soda, true, but
                       this is a big part of it, clearly.  And there is a lot
                       of material here to draw conclusions from.  It appears
                       I agree with you on many political issues, but the
                       vigorous and vitriolic pursuit of so many petty
                       squabbles seems pathetic to me.  You can do what
                       you want with your day of course, but we all have only
                       24 hours at our disposal.  To spend so much of it
                       picking on the soda little fish seems...again, the
                       best word is pathetic--like the school yard bully
                       who will never amount to much in Real Life.  While
                       you may add "character", I believe your conduct over
                       the long run does harm to the soda community.  I find
                       your pompous pontificating and especially your dissing
                       the efforts of so many others (while having so few
                       credentials or contributions yourself) especially
                       obnoxious.  Choose to ignore that or wear that as a
                       badge of honor.  For example, it is clear kchang is
                       a vastly better programmer than you are.  As far as
                       I know, using the geek gold standard of actual code
                       written or bugs fixed, rather than just user interface
                       feedback, you are a zero.
                                           \- "cipher" --psb
                       \_ Soda community?  Uh, right.  For those of us who only
                          keep our soda accounts so we can log in and watch or
                          participate in idiotic, spittle-filled flame wars,
                          tom *definitely* adds to the soda community.
                       \_ gee, who's the one spending all of his time
                          pursuing petty squabbles?  -tom
                          \_ Pathetic reply, Tom. -!pp
                       \_ How ironic. "anybody who takes the MOTD so seriously"
                          applies only to yourself, not tom. Tom doesn't
                          post all that much as a rule, but since he's signs
                          his name you jump on him more easily. Just like you
                          dumbshits did every time ilyas posted. Which is
                          partly why I'm anonymous. Although sometimes I wonder
                          why I bother spending time here. I occasionally learn
                          interesting things though.
            \_ Too bad. I actually support deletion of political trolls.
            \_ Too bad. I actually support deletion of trolls.
               All hail to whoever's doing that. Keep it up.
2005/3/30-31 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36975 Activity:kinda low
3/30    +80 char lines deleted.
        \_ Jesus, haven't you heard of "less -S"? It will bother you less as
           text does NOT get wrapped to the next line.
           \_ Allah, then how do you read the discarded characters?
              \_ the right arrow key to scroll to the right? like any
                 real editor do? You can even configure the scroll amount,
                 default is a bit too much for my taste...
                 \_ Oops.  I didn't actually try out -S before I spoke.  I just
                    relied on the man page which reads "the remainder of a long
                    line is simply discarded."
                    \_ slouie, you're 85+ char now, and still violating 80.
                       Oh well, who cares, it looks perfect on my baby
                       Kais Motd:
              \_ FYI, my less alias "less -iS -#8"
                 \_ +80 char lines will be automatically deleted, without
                    regard for subject matter.
2005/3/28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36917 Activity:kinda low
3/28    Who was it that was looking for engineers for the Yahoo small
        buisiness group?  I have a resume to send you. --jwm
        \_ Try /csua/pub/jobs/yahoo-search
           \_ That's something different --jwm
        \_ god, just Kais Motd it.
        \_ See below:
2005/3/26-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:36901 Activity:moderate
3/26    I want to learn a martial art for health reasons. I took Tai Chi
        once (a few month's worth) but otherwise have no experience.
        Keeping fit, ease of learning, and practicality (I'd like to be
        able to defend myself) are important - in that order. Which
        discipline should I learn? I am a little Chinese.
        \_ You might consider looking into Wing Tsun with Simon Mayer, or
           Ju Jitsu.  There are several JJ people here on motd -- perhaps
           one or more of them can be persuaded to talk about their club.
        \_ I guess it's a bit impractical for self-defense, but I did kendo
           for a while, and really enjoyed it.  I found the people to be
           generally pretty enthusiastic and friendly towards newcomers,
           and the sport to be a good balance between learning self-control
           and concentration, and screaming and jumping around a lot and
           beating on people with sticks.  Only drawback is the price of the
           equipment.  -John
        \_ Where are you located right now?  Your ethnicity has nothing to
           do with what you study, btw.  There are a lot of arts out there,
           most of which will offer you what you need.  UC Berkeley has a
           fairly decent martial arts program - Email me offlist if you
           have any questions regarding my experiences with that program.
           \_ I was told I could not study Brazilian or Israeli Martial Arts.
              \_ Unless this is a troll, or they were kidding, that's illegal.
           \_ Some other idiot added the Chinese part. I don't care enough
              to remove it. I am in the Los Angeles area now, btw.
           \_ How could any sodan be so gullilbe as to take that as part of a
              serious question?  If that jerk added "I am a little jew/arab/*"
              instead, would it at least raise some alarm in your head?
              \_ You may not know this but a lot of sodans are little Chinese.
              \_ [stupid]
              \_ I don't give a fuck.
2005/3/26-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36895 Activity:nil
3/26    The motd has been so censorship-free during spring break.  This makes
        me think the motd censor is a student - but that's not possible!  Why
        would a non alum read the the motd, let alone care about it enough to
        censor it so often?
        \_ some alum are still students
        \_ We are the old, wise curmudgeons who will harass you towards the
           path of righteousness in the real world (and maybe hire you.) -John
2005/3/24 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36858 Activity:kinda low
        soda [2] wc -l /etc/motd.public
             772 /etc/motd.public
        \_ Stop tempting fate!!!
        \_ the motd censors must be taking time off during spring break.
        \_ Nuclear launch detected.
2005/3/18-20 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36758 Activity:moderate
3/18    Get yer weekly culture fix.  Art Show @ The Clinic, 2801 25th St.:
        \_ hey dans, you're a pretty cute guy. Are you attached to anyone?
           Here's a bit of info about myself. I'm single, clean, and
           neat. I like opera, I love fine arts, I love cats (they're soooo
           adorable!), exotic cuisines (ever tried and
           everything that is unusual or exciting. Would you like to have
           lunch or coffee some time? If so, email
           \_ wow, i am speechless. -!dans
              \_ jealous?
                 \_ that sodans can be this blunt/brave. ;)
                 \_why not? it's not like they'll get pregnant and stuck
                  with each other.
           \_ wait, so just to clarify, is this... a gay wanted ad on motd?
           \_ I wouldn't consider asiasf to be exotic cuisine per se, though
              I've never been there, but I'm told it's pretty amusing as
              tranny bars go.  Anyway, if this is actually serious and not
              just motd wankery, drop me an email. -dans
           \_ A good friend of mine is actually a bartender at asiasf.  Even if
              it is far from what my lifestyle is like, I will say that it is
              a fun place to hang out if you are just looking for a fun and
              interesting evening. -phale
           \_ I'm surprised this thread has hung around this long.  No email
              received thus far, guess it was just motd wankery.  Pity,
              flattering while it lasted. -dans
              \_ gosh, I'm so sorry... have you tried or
        Motd isn't exactly a gay-friendly place.
2005/3/14-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36688 Activity:moderate
3/14    Hey could someone point me to a copy of the nukl3ar b1ff ascii art
        including Totoro commmenting in the foreground?  I looked at cowsay
        and it doesn't appear to be an option there.  Thanks. -dans
           Between mehlhaff's comprehensive archiver and kchang's sucky but
           easy to use archiver, I'll use the latter any time. kchang>>mehlhaff
           \_ Cool, thanks much. -dans
        Thanks to kchang's kais motd:
        \_ What does kchang's broken motd stuff have to do with a nuking?
           \_ See post immediately below.
              \_ why is it broken?
2005/3/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36687 Activity:nil 50%like:38632
Thanks to kchang's kais motd:

                   /f=r/~_-~ _-_ --_.^-~--\=b\
                 4fF / */  .o  ._-__.__/~-. \*R\
                /fF./  . /- /' /|/|  \_  * *\ *\R\
               (iC.I+ '| - *-/00  |-  \  )  ) )|RB
               (I| (  [  / -|/^^\ |   )  /_/ | *)B
               (I(. \ `` \   \m_m_|~__/ )_ .-~ F/
                \b\\=_.\_b`-+-~x-_/ .. ,._/ , F/
                 ~\_\= =  =-*###%#x==-#  *=- =/
                    ~\**U/~  | i i | ~~~\===~          You know, we totoro
                            | I I \\                   do not appreciate this.
                           / // i\ \\
                      (   [ (( I@) )))  )                   /
                             || * |                   |\|\
                            /* /I\ *~~\               |  OO\
                          /~-/*  / \ \ ~~M~\          | /^^\|
                ____----=~ // /WVW\* \|\ ***===--___  |_m_m/
2005/3/5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36536 Activity:nil
3/5     Welcome back soda! To check out motd you missed go to
2005/3/3-4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36505 Activity:high
3/3     A great place to talk about politics:
        Hello, my name is Motd, and I approve this message.
        \_ Seems to be kinda broken.
           \_ and deserted.
           \_ How so?  I know not many people use it, but I'm curious to hear
              what's broken.  --dbushong
              \_ Ah, I see.  I think most of it's just that 2nd post, where
                 someone pasted content, completed with existing \_'s directly
                 from the motd.  I guess I should trap for that.  --dbushong
                 \_ I admit, I didn't look very long.  The other odd thing
                    was the [1,2] beside the first post.  It had some
                    effect, but I'm not sure what the purpose was..
                    \_ Documentation, Shmocumentation.  Posters can edit
                       their own post, but the old versions are always saved
                       and available to see what revisionist history the
                       poster's up to.  --dbushong
2005/3/2-3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36500 Activity:insanely high
3/2     Motd is 50K long, go motd go! Go motd go!
        \_ Why do people say "Go motd go!"?  Why not just "Go motd!"?
           \_ "Go Johnny go go go!"
           \_ I'm going to guess that it has something to do with what you
              heard as a child. Take the famous Inspector Gadget cartoon
              song. It just sounds better when you sing it as "Go Gadget Go!"
              But yeah I agree that all languages [that I personally know
              of] have numerous examples of redundant verbiage.
              \_ While "Go Gadget Go!" was in the theme song, the more
                 memorable phrase was "Go Go Gadget X". I always though
                 the Go X Go! was a homage to Speed Racer, "Go Speed
                 Racer, Go!"
                 \_ I think the lines in the theme song are "go gadget go":
                Inspector Gadget..
                Oo Hoo..
                Inspector Gadget.
                Inspector Gadget..
                Oo Hoo..
                Inspector Gadget.
                Go gadget go!
                Go gadget go!
                Inspector Gadget..
                Oo Hoo..
                Inspector Gadget.
                \_ Ha! You don't think about it as a kid, but now that
                   I'm grown up, the lyrics are STUPID!!!
                   \_ Here he comes
                      here comes Speed Racer (ooh, ahh! ooh, ahh!)
                      Here he comes
                      here comes Speed Racer, he's a demon on wheels
                   \_ I'll get you next time, Gadget...
2005/2/27-3/1 [Computer/SW/Languages, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36447 Activity:low
2/26    I've been a slashdot reader for longer than I care to admit, but I'm
        wondering about other sites out there that maybe have a higher signal
        to noise ratio, and/or are more programming-focused.
        \_ It's called CSUA MOTD if jwang did a better job nuking political
           trolls. Email if you want him to do a
           better job.
           \_ Fuck you and die, motherfucker.
        \_ The CSUA motd, of course!
           \_ And a double dumbass on you, too!
2005/2/24-25 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36403 Activity:very high
2/24    Ilya and Brett, why do you love the motd?
        Estimated motd edit frequency by users:
        * 28 ilyas
        * 22 brett
        * 11 jctwu
        * 6 dgies
        * 9 jrleek
        * 3 scotsman ecchang john jwang danh
          \_ your script is weak.  this is 3rd entry I have made
             all month. - danh
             \_ the above is based on last 24 hours, and yes my script sucks
                but it's better than nothing. If you have a better snooping
                technology that you'd like to share, email me   -kchang
                \_ No, it's not better than nothing.  Incorrect information is
                   less useful than no information. -emarkp
                   \_ yeah just like the Bible. WHY THE FUCK DID YOU OR
                      SOMEONE ELSE CENSOR THIS?
                   \_ it is when I control the information, muhahaha  -kchang
                      \_ Hi, just thought I d drop by and point out that
                         you are a fool. -- ilyas
                         \_ if I'm a fool then you're a bigger fool. I believe
                            you spend a lot more time on motd than me. Get a
                            life ilyas.                         -kchang
                            \_ You've GOT to be kidding.
                            \_ You don't even understand why you were called
                               a fool, which is fairly impressive. -- ilyas
                               \_ you are on top of the pile.
                         \_ Hey, aren't you guys in the same small department
                            in the same school?
                            \_ Yup. -- ilyas
                               \_ Can you see eachother from your respective
                                  \_ better yet, can you set up a MOTD down
                                     there and leave us alone?
                  No, and I've never talked to ilyas, although I've heard -/
                  a lot about him, like he's a very condescending
                  character. I'm still waiting for him to insult me
                  \_ Hah!  You've heard this in the department?  -- ilyas
                  in person. It's bound to happen one of these days. By the
                  way this reminds me of a joke where all the inmates in this
                  jail have heard every single jokes possible in the world and
                  memorized them, and in fact, they simply refer to them as
                  numbers. For example, one of the inmates would say "Joke
                  #36403" and all the inmates would burst into laughters.
                  Likewise ilyas could borrow this idea and simply insult
                  me via #'s, where 1=Lazy Bitch, 2=You're a fool,
                  3=Get a life, etc etc.
                  \_ h07 42n ch1x!
                \_ Your script is signicantly more useful than nothing.  We
                   all have a brain and can decide how accurate it is, and
                   perhaps future incarnations will be.  It's not like we'd
                   use this log to invade Iraq or squish jwang.  Thanks kchang!
             \_ Are you suggesting the mighty kchang is WRONG?
                \_ the above is posted by lye
                \_ The obvious problem is that his method (kchang, what IS the
                   method?) only knows for sure about (a subset of?) those who
                   write the motd in the way that's logged by his thing.
                   \_ yeah I'm offering you a lower bound on the number of
                      people who modify, vs. having no bound at all. So
                      what's new? How would you get a tighter bound?   -kchang
                      \_ Why do you give a shit?
                         \_ motd gives me inspiration for a PhD thesis
                            \_ Funny.  Given the number of phd theses(including
                               mine) that are being delayed by time wasting
                               on the motd, I'm glad to see that the motd
                               might actually have some positive effect on
                               someone's phd.
                            \_ I think that's the scariest thing I've seen
                               all day.
        \_ not sure lye, why do YOU love the motd?
           \_ Because it is so full of love.  --lye
        \_ You have a 40% error. -named person
           \_ dgies, tell us which ones and maybe it'll be fixed
              \_ And non-out-of-context Ohio Players orgasms and things. -John
        \_ I love it because it lets me waste taxpayer money with impunity!
             -- ilyas
           \_ Communist!
              \_ There is such a thing as "tax" in communism?
                 \_ In Soviet Russia... oh never mind.
           \_ Man, that has got to be the world's slowest way to waste
              taxpayer money.
              \_ A million monkeys on a million discussion boards will
                 eventually something something...
        \_ You have a 40% error. -named person
           \_ dgies, tell us which ones and maybe it'll be fixed
        \_ Does your script also measure people who don't use /csua/bin/me?
           \_ no it only measures nice people.
 (   `           \|                     .  .        |
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        `.              `.__.-'  | ' `|.'     .      \
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\_ Oh that's sick.
\_ wow that's remarkably effective. you fucker. I'm at work here.
   \_ And yet you still pulled the image up in an editor to add your
\_ How about one with a man and a woman!!
\_ keywords: ascii art gay masterbate masterbation
2005/2/23-24 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36383 Activity:high
2/23    So why do people seem so uncomfortable about answering questions
        that seem to come from coursework?  Is it about making students
        suffer, or because of an assumption that they'll learn more by
        doing it the hard way?  The question below is something I hazily
        remember and it's something I'd like to know, just to stay sharp.
        I think NOT answering it, as tends to happen, might send the wrong
        message to student members.
        \_ Well, the question below is different from actual homework problems.
           I am sure you can see the problem with doing someone's homework
           for them. -- ilyas
        \_ Remember your Physics professor/TA telling you that you learn by
           doing and getting stuck with the problem, not by getting spoon-fed
           the answer?  That wasn't all baloney.
           As for soda, the ideal responses are hints and things of that sort,
           although many responses are not always ideal (in particular, the
           ones that end with, "Lazy bitch.")
           \_ Amusingly enough, I seemed to have been the only poster that
              actually solved the problem, and gave an actually useful
              hint (splitting the array into 3 sums).  But I am sure all
              your bitching about me telling off the lazy undergrad bitch
              is far more ideal. -- ilyas
              \_ Are you talking about the contiguous int's in an array?  My
                 CS170 book (Udi Manber) gave a solution using two sums, not 3.
                 \_ Heh, you can think of it as either 2 sums or 3 (the third
                    sum is what's left). -- ilyas
        \_ Asking anyone outside of the class can be considered cheating in
           some classes/professors these days.
           \_ Why do you say this?  I've only heard something this strict for
              take-home midterms/finals; homework seems to be > 90% "as
              long as you don't copy".
              \_ In all the classes I have ever TAed, the understanding is that
                 you do the homework yourself. -- ilyas
                 \_ You're a unionized state employee.  Awesome.
                 \_ By "the understanding is", do you mean the TA or professor
                    says "You should do the homework by yourself", or do
                    you mean they say, "You are not permitted to ask someone
                    else for help.  For this course, it is considered
                    \_ I consider the latter the legal codification of the
                       former, and in practice, I consider them equivalent from
                       the 'what you should morally do' point of view.
                       Certainly I would feel entitled to call anyone in
                       violation of either 'lazy bitch.' -- ilyas
                       \_ But you know it can't be policed. So I think if this
                          policy is in place then the grade should not depend
                          on the correctness of the homework.
                          \_ You can't perfectly police takehome finals
                             either.  Or GREs (if the perpetrator is clever).
                             Or speed limit laws.  Or anything, really.  What's
                             your point? -- ilyas
                             \_ So have you given up on your "thread order
                                enforcement"?  I see you're active today,
                                but I also see threads being selectively
                                deleted "out of order".  -meyers
                                \_ I ll retaliate if some thread I care about
                                   disappears 'prematurely.'  You can do all
                                   the other ones, Robby. -- ilyas
                             \_ Those other things are a lot better policed.
                                I dunno, I'm not in school anymore. But I think
                                the point of homework is to learn, and
                                discussing the problem with others can help.
                                \_ I agree that discussing can help, especially
                                   for math proofs.  But motd is a bit of a
                                   one-sided discussion. -- ilyas
                                   \_ What do you mean by "motd is a bit of
                                      a one-sided discussion"?
                                      \_ When someone asks for homework help
                                         on the motd, it's not a real
                                         discussion.  It's one party fishing
                                         for clues while contributing nothing,
                                         really.  'Discussion' for these
                                         things has to be face to face, imo.
                                         Also, it's a little annoying because I
                                         have never ever seen anyone admit
                                         upfront they are asking for homework
                                         help on the motd.  It's always 'hey,
                                         here's a neat problem!'  That already
                                         seems dishonest from the start.
                                           -- ilyas
                                         \_ I would say the majority of users
                                            have problems with students asking
                                            the Internet at-large to do their
                                            The same majority also feels it is
                                            dishonest for students to pretend
                                            not to be students.
                                            There is no disagreement there.
                       \_ Hey ilyas, can we call you an "uptight dickhead?"
                       \_ The difference between the two is obvious.
                          Lazy bitch.
                ilyas, it's good that you're concerned about cheating. -/
                Luckily, most HW assignments are less than 5-10% of
                the total grade, and in the case of most grad schools,
                they're worth nothing.
                they're worth nothing. My take is this. If students want
                to cheat on the HW, let them cheat! When they take the exam,
                their grades will reflect their lack of efforts they've
                put into their study anyways.
2005/2/21-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36356 Activity:high Edit_by:dlong
2/21    Seeing as most of politburo is new to the CSUA (and even the
        university) this semester, they havn't been "indoctrinated" (if that's
        an appropriate word) into the history and culture of the CSUA.  As
        such, there's a bit of culture change going on through their work.  I'm
        curious as to what people think about the historical culture versus
        the newer culture.  Should the CSUA maintain its "geeky" roots with
        respect to things like the office and web page, or migrate to the more
        "133+" look that some want?  For example, the office has inherited some
        "loud" furniture, and there's been talk of revamping the website. I am
        not one to be stuck in the past, but at the same time, there are things
        which maintain a certain "culture" within the organization.
        \_ how many of them joined because of babelicious karen?
        \_ Do both. For starter, get them to mesg y, nwrite, and most
           importantly, wall. It's always good for the young and the old
           to keep in touch with each other. From there, the noobs can choose
           which traditions they'd like to keep while the old can keep up
           with what's new. FoodP and volleyball tournaments between the
           old and the new would also be a great idea.
        \_ What makes CSUA unique? What does CSUA have that other organizations
           don't have? To name a few, relaxed atmosphere, informal non-uptight
           organization (like UCSEE), non-exclusionary (XCF), and above all
           else, the amazing synergy between alumni and new students. I think
           that as long as you can keep these unique characteristics in CSUA,
           it doesn't matter how the web site looks or how you rearrange the
           \_ Has the risk tourney taken place anytime recently?  -John
              \_ there was RISK playing last week, no tourney in a while though.
              \_ We got sick of Berkeley Gaming Club guys showing up and
                 cheating.  -tom
                 \_ What happened?  How do you cheat at Risk?
                    \_ Give yourself extra armies when making change.  (It
                       helps to play the Australia strategy in every game,
                       so all your armies are on the same place and are hard
                       to keep track of). -tom
        \_ The CSUA today seems like a much more jolly place than, say, the motd.
           I don't know whether you're actually around the office much; but it
           seems to me that the organization is doing quite well. I've only been
           a member for 3 odd years, so I may not be well versed in traditions,
           but if the goal of the CSUA is to be a place where geeks who love
           computers can congregate, socialize, and every so often be productive,
           then I don't think there's that much too complain about.
           \_ take out tom ilyas aaron,
              and everything old and smell,
              from motd and wall,
              then jolly you'll get all.
2005/2/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36246 Activity:high
2/19    Did you, as an undergrad, watch Animaniacs, listen to Beatles,
        and sing Russian peasant drinking songs on Hearst? If you did,
        can you say something about yourself, like when you were there,
        who you're with, etc? I'm trying to locate old friends. ok thx.
        \_ yes, yes, no(at least I don't remember,but maybe I was too drunk)
          \_ Budu zhdat' tebja zaranee U izluchiny reki. Prihodi zhe na
             svidanie, Ja prochtu tebe stihi, -- Pro podruzhek pro veselyh
             I zatejlivyh rebjat, Pro tebja, moja ljubimaja, Srazu tri
             stiha podrjad.
             \_ someone please translate this???
        \_ Everyday I'd watch Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, and Batman on Fox from
           3:30 to 5:00. If time didn't allow I'd watch them on pre-recorded
           VHS tape. WEB (Workstations at Evan's Basement) was too far at
           night, so I'd dial into Berkeley's free PPP connection and telnet
           to using my state of the art 33Mhz 386 with 16M
           RAM via my blazingly fast 14.4K baud modem. From there I'd do a
           lot of stuff, like checking email, reading motd, and stuff like
           that. I'd listen to Arthur Rubenstein playing Chopin from a tape
           set using my dad's old Panasonic tape player. Usually there were
           a lot of work to be done, but since they're not urgent, I'd play
           DikuMUD, chat/nwrite/ytalk to people online while listening to
           Chopin's Noctures (on cassette tapes), on rainy, quiet, somewhat
           lonely nights.
             That was over a decade ago. I'm now ssh'ed into soda (now known
           as using my P4 3Ghz 1G RAM machine via broadbnd.
           There are a lot of things I have to do but since they're not
           urgent, I'm just checking motd, gmail, surfing, and chatting people
           on AIM and Yahoo Messenger. Yes, it's a raining, quiet, somewhat
           lonely night, and I'm listening to Chopin's Noctures, on MP3.
             It's amazing how some things have changed, and how some things
           haven't. I guess when you get old you start to treasure things that
           do not change, or things that seemed insignificant at the time, but
           now you have this strange fond memories of, like logging into soda.
           I love soda and I hope it will never go away.             -old man
           \_ I'm not sure whether I should join in the reminiscing
              or mock you.
                \_ both is acceptable
           \_ Did you ever get a girlfriend all those years?
           \_ I was across the street drinking myself to sweet oblivion.
2005/2/18-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36228 Activity:high
2/18    Why don't you just email your complaint to jwang directly rather
        \_ We like to air our diry laundry here on the motd.
        \_ Destruction of the MOTD (by repeated deletion, jive, or any other
           method) is severly frowned upon and will result in the
           termination of your account.
           \_ Do we have proof it was jwang?
              \_ The politburo doesn't need proof to investigate. Then
                 he has to either admit to it, lie about it, or ignore
                 \_ Even a confession isn't enough to get squished anymore.
                 \_ [ meyers reply deleted to spite him. -- ilyas ]
                    \_ Wow, that's twice I've been nuked, though you're
                       only owning up to it once.  Is this part of your
                       "inverse golden rule"?  -meyers
                 \_ [ ilyas reply deleted to spite him. -- !meyers ]
                    \_ Fuck you for forging my login.  Bitch.  Not even
                       ilyas would stoop so low.  -meyers
                       ilyas would stoop so low.  -jwang
                       \_ I am a god!  A god, damn you! -meyers
                          \_ You post to the motd with the trolls you have,
                             not the intelligent discussion you ought to
                             have.  -tom
                             \_ Sometimes, it's more fun to play with the
                                trolls -- expectations are so much lower.
                    \_ [ no sense being redundant. ]
2005/2/17-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36214 Activity:high
2/17    jwang, you are one persistent sunavabitch. do you have anything
        other than partially nuking motd especially ones on politics as your
        primary hobby? everything ok with your life lately, ala gf, job, etc?
        if you need help just ask cuz i'm concerned about you.  libraries?
        Personally, I couldn't care less what their problems are.
        \_ Some people are just assholes.  Are you concerned about the personal
           lives of the rightwing assholes who want to censor books from
           libraries?  Personally, I couldn't care less what their problems
        \_ The motd should be for CS-related questions. At least that's
           what the rules are. All political-related crap belong in a
           Yahoo groups, or whatever.
        \_ Oh wow.  You and kchang should get married by an SF mayor and
              have beautiful adopted children. -- ilyas
           \_ First of all, fuck you.  Second of all, many of the people who
              provide detailed useful technical advice on the motd are the
              same people who are the most active in the politics threads.
           Take away the politics, sex, humor, and random cultural
              discussions and you take away the interest factor that brings
           people back to the motd.  I predict that the dickheads like you
              who don't seem to care about anything but CS are also the people
           with the least to contribute technically.
        \_ The rules regarding posting to motd are readily available from
              the csua website.  Your interpretation is actually neither
              justifiable from the rules or by established policy.  motd is a
              justifiable from the rules nor by established policy.  motd is a
           community that has certain social norms.  Dictating what those
              norms should be based on your own predilections independant of
           the standards of the majority of the people in the community is
              egocentric and stupid at best.  If you don't like the standards
              of the motd community, then I suggest starting your own forum
              somewhere else in usenet: registering your very own domain is
              quite affordable these days, and I suspect hosting a single
              world-readable file would be no big deal.  You could even set up
              your very own world-readable file here on soda and post the path
              here on motd. In short, there are many solutions to your problem,
           here on motd. In short, there are many solutions to your
           both technical and social, but you seem to have chosen the most
            egoistic and childish one of the bunch.  Perhaps you should
              reevaluate your participation here.
        \_ nice troll, you got 40 lines of response to a sarcastic
                 comment.  -tom
           \_ Could you please post these rules?  You can't, because that
           go at this thread.  But yeah, I readily I admit that
           part is not in them.
           \_ Hi jwang! Thanks for responding.
        \_ You know, I'm not jwang and I do this.  Are you sure you're writing
           to who you think you should be writing to?
           \_ Why don't you just search and replace from his name to yours
              then, asshole?
           \_ I've logged jwang doing it also.  That you also do it doesn't
              imply jwang doesn't or that he's not more egregious than you
              are.  - !pp
              \_ Sometimes motds need to get nuked.  Sometimes you need to
                 get laid and go away.
              \_ I've also seen it, repeatedly, for most of the past year.
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