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2018/10/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
 10/20

 2006/11/4-6 [Politics/Domestic, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45170 Activity:nil 11/04 Do people still want Joe Ayoob back in as QB? See motd from sept. \_ As if anyone here remembers any single obscure motd entry from two months ago that doesn't have to do with Dems vs. GOP or renters vs. homeowners. Dolt. \_ Someone claimed that Nate Longshore was worse than Joe Ayoob, "Cal's worst quarterback ever." Cal is off to its best start in (?) decades. \_ Someone claimed that Nate Longshore was worse than Joe Ayoob, "Cal's worst quarterback ever." Cal is off to its best start in (?) decades. \_ 5 decades
 2006/11/2-3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45113 Activity:nil 11/02 Does motdedit work for you all? It just dumps me out with a successfull exit code (0). \_ Works for me (using it now). Check your $EDITOR environment variable. -gm \_ Only GIRLY MEN use motdedit. -overwritinator  2006/10/29-11/1 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:45027 Activity:nil 10/29 Motd lawyers, help me: is it still legal for people to shove their flyers under my door? I'm this close to going postal on the next person who puts a flyer on my doorknob. \_ Yes, it is. Unless you can point me to some local city or county ordinance that prohibits the practice. \_ See, now, the point of my post was so that YOU would find the local or county ordinance for me. But thanks for playing. \_ See, now, the point of my post was that YOU did NOT ever name which county or city you lived in, so answering your question is absolutely impossible, unless you wanted someone to go down, city-by-city, county-by-county, every single public nuisance law and make an analysis. The motd response entry would then be about 50 pages long and would take up several days of attorney time at my billable rate of nearly 400 dollars an hour. Tell me where to send the bill, give me a$5,000 retainer, and I'll get started. Until then, thanks for playing. \_ How much did you bill your real client to write that stupid little rant on the motd?
 2006/10/24-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44955 Activity:nil 10/24 just want to say .. I started using google reader. and I found a decent motd rss feed ... its awesome. I'm back to motd reading after a few months of not -- been getting more into various blogs. maybe I'm just writing this to see my own name in the google reader. no but really, fyi, its cool. \_ Which motd feed are you using? \_ I'm hesitant to say ... is having a motd feed w/in the rules of the politburo? I dont want to get it shut down ... and I dont know if the creator wants the notoriety.
 2006/9/28-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44596 Activity:nil 9/28 Gotta love the motd: Eviscerating the Constitution only gets one comment, but huffing and puffing about a China-U.S. lesbian fantasy gets a dozen posts! \_ that usually happens when most people realize how fucked up it is. motd fosters arguments, but not so much rants.
 2006/9/19-21 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44440 Activity:moderate 9/19 emarkp, running wall through a filter so you don't have to read swear words is pretty insane, but please don't start filtering stuff I read too. That really bugs me. I know motd is offensive sometimes, but there's that pesky 1st amendment. Go live in the fucking nazi germany that the other right wingers are trying to put us in and leave motd alone. -brain \_ I think you need to read the definition of insane. My "censoring" is deleting anonymous trolls addressed to me. I have as much right to delete it as trolls have to post it. Or is no one allowed to delete posts on motd? -emarkp (thanks for signing your name at least) \_ Thanks brain for standing up to this religious bully. Most of us are too scared to stand up to him let alone sign our names. I mean, what if he passes my name to the Mormons who keep on I mean, what if he passes my name to the fucking Mormons who keep on knocking on my door? Scary. Anyways thanks brain. \_ You're being a mean b! \_ automunging of the motd is verboten. don't do it. \_ automunging of the fucking motd is verboten. don't do it. \_ Whoever restored this from a few days ago--why didn't you restore my reply? -emarkp
 2006/8/19-23 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Recreation/Music] UID:44070 Activity:low 8/19 The only country music station in Los Angeles, KZLA 93.9 will finally stop airing. All the annoying billboards like "Ride a Cowboy" will also stop. YAY!!! \_ Could this mean that sattelite radio is taking over? If all the shit between 87 MHz and 108 MHz were to go off the air, I would not cry. \_ It's a dark dark day for us rednecks and Republicans. :( :( :( \_ And you care enough to post to the Berkeley motd about some random LA radio station because...? \_ Because I move to LA -alum \_ Because I moved to LA. -alumnus (motd grammar god was here) \_ Yeah, make way for more important stuff like the Zombie Preparedness Kit. \_ The ZPK has more value to the motd than blather about some radio station in another part of the country. Would you like to hear about how when I was 12 the local radio station over the border in NJ would play really bad music but then they went off the air and got replaced by another bad radio station? No, didn't think so. Boring. \_ Go Top 40 music! -KIIS-FM fan \_ Sat radio sucks ASS. Poor quality, commercials on most stations, it's going to be bankrupt in ~4 years. Someone else will buy their debt/etc and restart the system and run it properly.
 2006/8/16-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:44033 Activity:nil 8/16 Hey motd average dude, you are fucking boring. Your friend. \_ seconded -average motd reader \_ I agree. -average motd reader's friend \_ I will try harder deleting political shit \_ Oh, God, not this again. Look, fucker. Many people have taken it upon themselves to rid the motd of politics, all have failed. You will fail also, you'll just stir up the motd and make it a zoo for a couple of weeks and make a lot of people hate you. Other than that, you will change nothing. \_ How about you try harder to grow up and just ignore it?
 2006/8/8-11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43946 Activity:nil 8/8 As tom pointed out earlier, due to the controversy of putting ads on the Berkeley MOTD for non-profit reason on a campus network, the experiment will not begin. There is a chance that the entire site will be moved off-site, on a non-Berkeley affiliated network. The ETA for the site migration will probably be some time this year. Until then, no ads will be shown, and the Berkeley MOTD will still be served at the same exact same url. Thanks for your patience. -kchang \_ tom, if CSUA solicits PayPal payments where PayPal takes a 2.7% cut in profit, wouldn't such solicitation be questionable since commerical businesses are involved? \_ I doubt it; the CSUA in that case is paying for a service, not advertising a company. -tom \_ tom, when we hold infosessions for companies and they give us free HP Rubix's Cube or free Yahoo shirts, aren't we advertising those corporations in return for toys? \_ Again, a job session is in service of Berkeley students; adwords are not. But really, don't ask me, ask the policy people; that's all I suggested. -tom \_ Gosh darn it.So what are other ways CSUA can generate revenues? It would be nice to buy current text books. The ones in our library has mostly useless and outdated books. Extra Xbox games would also be nice. \_ Again, the most effective way to raise money is by begging alumni or threatening to shutdown soda by claiming that the hardware is inadequate to handle heavy loads. Oh wait, that already happened earlier this year when we had a week long simulated shutdown. Good job guys. \_ Bake sale? I'd just make sure you don't buy texts used in classes--theft... \_ Men of EECS, erotic calender! \_ I'm going to go wash my eyeballs with soap for having read that. \_ The scary part is, it's been done. (Squelch, circa 1991). -tom \_ urlP? Curious. \_ September 2000. -gm \_ Maybe they did it twice; the time I'm thinking of was way before Y2K. thepro was on the cover. It predated online versions. -tom
 2006/8/7-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43938 Activity:nil 8/7 http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/Minutes/F2006/20060801.politburo.irc.txt Per Politburo's approval, the Berkeley Motd (formerly known as KAIS MOTD) will have advertisements on the right side, with proceeds going back to CSUA. Hopefully, people searching for UNIX help or looking for Intel chip info or any interesting and helpful topics on motd, will lead to more people clicking on the ads. In general the more technically helpful the topic is, the more click-thru-rates we'll get, so go ahead and contribute good contents [minus mindless political discussions] on motd for the sake of CSUA! -kchang \_ What are the rates, and are there CSUA discounts? \_ PS I haven't added the ads yet. It should be there some time towards the end of this week. I just applied for an account (5:20PM today) and it returned "Your application has now been submitted for review and we will follow up with you by email in 1-2 days." We'll have to wait. BTW I've never done this before, has anyone used the ad services from major ad companies before, and what kind of advice do you have? Thanks. \_ Alright, CSUA charity click fraud! \_ I kindly ask people to not click on the ads for the pure sake of generating revenue for CSUA. It is dishonest and does everyone a big disfavor, including ad consumers and ad producers. Ads that get excessive CTRs will in fact get tagged and future Berkeley sites may be subject to bans, and we may stop getting any revenue. Please click on the ads only if you're genuinely interested in buying the products. Lastly may I add that this is only an experiment, and may end should it fail. For example, it may fail to generate enough CTRs, too much CTRs (which gets us banned), or any other unforseable problems. \_ Don't be so sure. Political topics should generate lots of ads now that Nov 2006 is coming near! \_ Uh, like Vote For Pedro t-shirts and hats? \_ Vote for Pedro. -pedro \_ What is up with the "Pedro" meme anyway? Where is that from? \_ From the movie Napoleon Dynamite, you illiterate, non-movie going ignoramus. -pedro \_ Has the politburo checked with the campus policy people as to whether this is legal? It's a risky area. -tom \_ Excellent point tom. As someone who is intimately familiar with the University, do you think this would this be very different than say, ethnic groups in front of Sproul Hall selling ethnic food for club fund raising? \_ Yes, it's quite a bit different, because it involves corporate businesses. If La Raza let Taco Bell sell burritos at their table on Sproul and took a share of the profits, there would be some serious questions about the appropriateness of the activity. The Electronic Communications Policy says: "University electronic communications resources may not be used for: ... * commercial purposes not under the auspices of the University;" If KAIS MOTD were hosted somewhere else, as it used to be, it might not be an issue, but I think it's very likely a problem while it's hosted on a Berkeley machine. -tom \_ Interesting. Oh well too bad.
2018/10/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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 2006/7/20-23 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43737 Activity:nil 7/20 If you click on individual UIDs on the Berkeley Motd you may see somewhat relevant links below the line "You may also be interested in these entries." Below is an example: http://csua.com/?entry=43724
 2006/7/8-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43591 Activity:nil 50%like:43645 7/8 Berkeley MOTD's search feature is back. Have fun. http://csua.com \_ thanks!! kchang
 2006/7/3-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43554 Activity:nil 7/3 Will KAIS MOTD have search capability turned on again? \_ No. Stop asking. Write your own. \_ I stupidly coded the site such that some features need the suexec capability (where cgi scripts that I as user kchang will run as kchang instead of "nobody"), but it is disabled and I'm just too lazy to spend any time trying to make features work without it. If enough people petition root to turn it on then it may just happen. BTW only the 24 hour diff and admin modify features really need suexec. Search doesn't really need suexec but I just don't have time or energy to play around with the code right now. -kchang \_ root, can we give kchan suexec access since he is doing a such great public service for greater CSUA community? \_ why we run without suexec (or cgiwrap) is beyond me. \_ I can tell you why. The noobs trying to learn the zen of soda sysadm think that suexec is like setuid, it has that scary "su" and "exec" keywords that sound like a something that would compromise soda. \_ Isn't it more dangerous to run suexec and setuid? \_ They're learning. soda is not for the alumni, it's for the undergrads. They'll come around in time.
 2006/7/1-5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43547 Activity:low 6/30 England demonstrates that they are able to kick the ball right to the goalkeeper. \_ Lame. He _was_ good. If Rooney hadn't demonstrated that he was able to kick the balls... -John \_ http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~erikred/wallchart.pdf updated: 0100 Next match: July 4 \_ What is the point of this. Why dont you just send people to the FIFA/Yahoo site: http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/calendar.html \_ Did you miss the memo when I first started posting this when I said you could just go to http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com? Ah, obviously you did. Mostly it's for my own interest. If this offends you, please remember to cut vertically, not horizontally. \_ Can you also start posting DJIA numbers and the GOOG price every hour in the motd? Dude, I wasn't *offended* you were doing this...I was just curious if I was missing some value you were providing that was not available on the Yahoo site. Apparently not. If people want to go to a pdf instead of html and one that is far more lagged in time, I don't want to stop them. If your "interest" is sated by filling in numbers, maybe you are the one with little to live for. For some extra amusement, maybe you can also make the motd available as a PDF on your website! \_ Can you make that motd.pdf searchable by KAIS MOTD? Thanks! ;-) \_ Sorry, no added benefit. Just my own hobby. Also, it takes less than five minutes per update to complete, so I still have time to short GOOG, troll freepers, ride bike, and wonder what BUD DAY would say.
 2006/6/27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43511 Activity:nil 6/27 mtd: open /etc/motd: Permission denied \_ Some root type needs to chmod g+w /etc/motd
 2006/6/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:43431 Activity:low 6/19 The motd is just not the same after account reactivation. So boring, where did all the troller's go? How am I supposed to get through my workday??!! \_ They didn't let certain people come back. \_ Don't worry, with the latest hack, there are lots of new people on! \_ The motd isn't here to entertain you. You want trolls? Start trolling. The motd is what we all make of it. I know you're kidding. I'm not. \_ There's a difference between knowing the troll, and walking the troll. \_ Dere's some difference between knowin' de troll, an' walkin' de troll. What it is, Mama! \_ The ratio of interesting poster to idiot is at a 5 year low. \_ You sure you don't have it backwards? Trolling seems down to me. \_ Sorry, too busy to do my usual muckracking/trolling. -Great Swami \_ Let's see.. Guns are good. Guns are bad. Drivers' license for illegals violates Article 1, Section 10.
 2006/5/26-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43202 Activity:nil 5/26 Hallaluja, I'm back on the motd. Where's motdedit? \_ /csua/bin/motdedit \_ *now* it is, can we get a "me" softlink to that badboy too? k,tnx.
 2006/5/24-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43170 Activity:low 5/24 In response to the moronic-nutjob-Stormfront-links, I wrote a script to watch which hozers are editing the motd. To catch the bastard, merely edit the motd with a reply giving a timestamp as soon as you notice it. I'll come a running. And yes, your secrets are safe with me. --michener \_ If you have the power to squish, you should squish. Personally, I'm offended by the ranting racist freeper URLs and I'm tired of whoever's been posting them. They add little value to motd and offend me greatly, not to mention it borders on harrasing everyone else, and most importantly, "being a h0zer" which is a squishable offense. I ask you kindly to squish whoever's been posting these things. Thank you michener. \_ You just need to catch whoever's doing the following: % vi freerepublic % cat freerepublic /etc/motd.public > temp % cp temp /etc/motd.public I already know who's been doing this without using a script. \_ How do you know I am not mounting Soda's drives with FUSEFS and SSH on my home linux box? White Power! 14 Words! - danh \_ What about people who use scp? \_ I'm confused as to what you're requesting. Also, can we view your source? I'm just interested in how you're doing this. \_ How I was doing it is ~michener/watchmotdprocesses \_ Only using what anybody else could watch. Essentially, it's logging the output of ps to a file. ~michener/watchmotdprocesses for the full script. \_ Essentially, what I'd like is this: Wed May 24 10:56:15 PDT 2006 \_ I asked bc I thought you were doing something cool/tricky like what kchang is doing. but i don't know what he's doing and he already gets a lot of shit for not being accurate. Kchang, how does your name-guessing algorithm work? \_ It's actually not that complicated. I assign villain names to people based on a badly written semi-random generator so certain people will get assigned to certain villain names more frequently than the others. Why this fascinates people who try to reverse engineer it, baffles me a lot. I guess people like mysteries and thrive on solving puzzles that don't exist in the first place. -kchang \_ The pp is asking about the actual person detection process you use, assuming it's something better than michener's running ps every 2 seconds. Like, maybe you are also seeing who is idle/not idle when motd changes. You must have something like that for your "these people maybe did it" lists. I'm no unix expert though and there are probably tools I don't know about that would also help. Especially with root access. \_ My information gathering mechanism is exactly what michener uses, albeit a lot more probalistic based post-processing involved. In another word, it does not catch people doing scp, CGI-BIN based writes, cp, or countless other mechanisms that escape the "ps aux" call. If you are on the network like some people in soda, you can definitely write a sniffer and a motd-change correlator, and correlate IP, scp actions, and motd changes and find the perp. There are other things you can do. However, the only solution that'll catch every single person is a solution that requires root. -kchang \_ Why does it require any response? How is this any different than the phone lines being tapped "for our protection"? And once you eventually do figure out who it is, then what? Squish them? What about that whole free speech thing? Does that only apply to people we agree with? I find the posts repulsive and just ignore them without comment. Feeding the trolls only makes it worse. \_ I'll stop if it's too big a problem, but frankly, imo, whoever's trolling deserves reprimand and potential sorryage. With politb approval for the sorry, of course. \_ Alright, fine. Stopped. You deal with the fucker. Just expect me to be around motd less. --michener \_ Reprimand for what? Posting perfectly legal political views that don't match yours? I'm totally serious. I don't see squishing people for posting their views to be appropriate at what is supposed to be a liberal university. How about instead you ignore them or refute them? Censorship and book burning is not the answer. \_ I agree with this. I don't like those posts any more than the rest of you, and I appreciate michener's intent, but censorship / squishage based on our opinions of what's reasonable doesn't seem appropriate. -niloc (I'm not saying logging would be wrong, necessarily.) (I also acknowledge that certain posts, i.e. death threats etc may be exceptions, and the line may be fuzzy.) \_ Threats of harm, physical or otherwise, cross the line from philosophical points about free speech and censorship and into, well, harm. I'd be ok with stripping anonymity from the motd, so long as it was truly stripped; I'd want the names to be public to everyone, not just root and someone's buddy. Otherwise just leave it as it is. As long as we're talking about who posts what, I think edits and deletes should be logged too if the motd goes that way. \_ Alright, fine. Stopped. Log deleted. You deal with the fucker. Just expect me to be around motd less. --michener \_ Addendum. You can't win if you try on soda. You have people bitching because this kind of stuff shows up on motd. You have (anonymous!) people bitching if you try to stop it. I am jaded. --michener \_ It isn't your responsibility to 'fix' it and I still don't think anything is broken anyway. Also, I don't think your script would catch them. I think your heart was in the right place, but the people bitching about it should either refute it or ignore it. Censorship is never the answer. \_ I'll be frank -- I think that trolling is trolling, whether white-supremicist or tree-huggers. I want it stopped, but recognize that I was pushing lines of power. And yes, it is my responsibility. soda is my responsibility and I want to make sure y'all have a good time, alums too. That's all. Just so much conflict that, like I say, I'm out, man, bitching on both sides is more likely to be ignored now. --michener \_ You'll also notice that the script used no power that an average user doesn't have. Anybody could be watching and remember that. --michener \_ The script you posted is really not effective, as most of the trolls have long ago figured out ways to mask their edits. (For example, reiffin is very clever with "jove blah"). I think if the politburo wants to do something about distasteful or hate speech in the MOTD (which I think is a reasonable thing to do), there's a simple, effective solution; log edits. -tom \_ Noted. --michener \_ Thanks for the show of support tom. My technical abilities are a bit higher than using a temp file to hide anything especially since I told you years ago I used 'blah' as my local copy. If I was trying to hide anything I'd do a better job than that and I wouldn't tell you what I was doing. The fact is I'm not doing anything special to 'cover' my motd edits because I have nothing to hide. If you're going to call anyone out, at least get it right. Have a nice day. \_ Hey michener! The above was posted at 3:21PM, can you find out who posted it? \_ michener you can do what you like really. I am in favor of squishing this particular troll. It's a judgment call, sure, and it's pretty obvious to me this moron has nothing to say that's of any substance. Just because some other anonymous douche is worried about it doesn't mean you have to give up. You have the power to decide which course of action is better. You can bet that with our group there's gonna be dissenters on any decision... better IMHO to listen their comments but stick to what you feel is right. After all that's why we have positions of power and elections. The reason for squishing the moron/troll isn't about censoring opinions. It's about harassment ultimately and these very few anonymous morons have already driven away plenty of folks from the motd. Maybe that's no big deal but if we happen to find out who it is then just pull the trigger. \_ or you can just delete the MOTD every 3 minutes like paolo did \_ Or you can keep bitching about paolo like tom did \_ Or you can practice revisionist history like dans did \_ I think my current stance for the time being (and probably the summer) will be squish him if we figure out who it is by some telltale sign or other, and discuss motd trolls first time I can unite the politburo. --michener \_ Remember, we went through this just last semester. -jrleek \_ Remember, we went through this just last semester. -jrleek \_ Wow, how curious that this comes up once again. The CSUA doth move in cycles. Well to summarize my understanding of the decision in the past it was that we would purposefully not log the motd, for a number of reasons, one of which, personal privacy, and another of which, the mere existence of logs allows them to be susceptible to a subpeona (say someone threatens to kill someone... etc). I think we made the right decision then, this particular world editable cesspool works well enough through personal censorship. It was also agreed that the only real definitive way to log motd edits would be with a kernel patch. Also, at one time there was work (or at least interest in) a much more protected form of MOTD editing than /csua/bin/motdedit (which would make it harder for people to log users' edits). -mrauser
 2006/5/22-28 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43152 Activity:nil 5/22 Yet another wave of mental midgetry washes over the CSUA. Bright young undergrads who wanted the motd web-indexed: this is one of the main reasons why people were arguing against it. -John \_ Please stop trolling us and just tell us whether you sympathize with the Nazis or not. I don't know enough Swiss to say whether a big proportion of them are Nazi sympathizers or not, but I know first hand that many Austrians are. If you give a straightforward yes (I'm a Nazi sympathizer) or no (I'm not a Nazi sympathizer), I promise to leave you alone. Deal? \_ Jesus H Christ, get some medication, son. You've been obsessing about this junk nonstop for waaaay too long. It's not only stupid, it's boring. -mice \_ You're a pathetic moron. John doesn't have to say anything for you, anonymous coward. If you're going to name other people, post your own name, you fetid pile of refuse. -jrleek \_ Um, you know that Solomon is a *fucking*Jewish*name* right? \_ Um, you know that Salomon is a *fucking*Jewish*name* right? You do know that John is Jewish right? I don't have to explain this to you, do I? \_ ...stormfront and white-history. Good grief, Charlie Brown, who gave the nutcases motd accounts? \_ FYI, the current undergrads had nothing to do with motd indexing. I only wrote the wallall RSS script. And that has been hidden from Google. It was some predecessor who did the web MOTD. If you'd like, in the near future I can look into hiding it too. In other words, quitcherbitchin. ;) --michener \_ kchang put some effort into getting rid of the identifiers to protect the guilty. maybe you can too. ----------stupidity below this line----------
 2006/5/12-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43042 Activity:nil 5/12 Is it just me or is motdedit hozing a lot of change merges lately? -John \_ If there's any doubt, it's almost definitely you. -mice \_ What happened to /csua/bin/me ? That's what I used to use?
 2006/5/10-12 [Computer/SW/Security, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:43004 Activity:nil 5/10 Can we get kais motd intellidiff back now that cgi is re-enabled? \_ No. "suexec" is not enabled so it is run as "nobody", which means I need to make EVERYTHING world readable, including the index.cgi in which I embed mysql password. I am not enabling anything back till suexec is added. Until then, soda is insecure, and I'm not going to risk security for convenience. -kchang \_ root: Can we get suexec set up? -intellidiff #1 fan \_ Mysql has fairly granular permissions. Why not set up an account that has read-only access to the appropriate tables? \_ Because it also needs to write to certain directories/files. In the end it's a lot of trouble and I don't have time to code a workaround now. Look. Enabling suexec takes 30 seconds, so it is a solution that has a much higher work/time ratio. I'm no no hurry. I can wait. -kchang higher work/time ratio. I'm in no hurry. I can wait. -kchang \_ How can we access mysql from soda? \_ I compiled my private copy on a separate port and not sharing it -kchang
 2006/5/9-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42998 Activity:nil 5/9 Formatted most flagrant 80 column violations back to sanity. The motd formatting god grows angry. We should all fear its wrath. \_ Can't computers do this automatically these days? \_ Yeah, but this is the CSUA. Lots of alumni love circa 1980 approaches to problems. \_ Because we know the students will come up with some incredibly brilliant technical solution just to spite us curmudgeons. We wouldn't want to deprive you of the learning opportunity. -John
 2006/5/1-4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42871 Activity:nil 4/30 hello. i do not think the wall logs should be on the web so easily. what do you think? \_ Wasn't it always on the web in a txt file before? \_ Can we get motd in RSS too? \_ Couple problems with that: 1) It's more like a message board than a feed 2) All it takes is one person to booch the formatting (unlike wall.log, which is consistent enough) and the whole the whole thing stops working mrauser's working on a message board anyway, stay tuned \_ Actually, someone did roll a motd -> rss feed script, but I don't know what's become of it. If it's lost and I find some time, I'll do it as an excuse to learn RSS/Atom. -dans \_ I wrote one, but cgi scripts still are not working in my cgi-bin directory. I get "Access forbidden" when I try to run them. -peterl \_ looks like there's a bug in the httpd.conf: AllowOverride FileInfo AuthConfig Limit Options Indexes IncludesNoExec SymLinksIfOwnerMatch ExecCGI (note the "ExecCGI not on the same line as "Options") If it were on the same line, you'd be able to put an executable .cgi file anywhere under ~/public_html and it would work. --dbushong \_ Yeah, I built an RSS feed of http://csua.org/motd but it just sends you an entire thread every time there's a change to any part of it. Meh. --dbushong \_ It's WALL! It's not like you're posting trade secrets or steamy sex tapes. And if you're walling such things, I think you want \_ Or tax returns. Oh, wait... them to be found.... mostly it's inane chatter, but it's our inane chatter, and we can track it now -- and to outsiders, it reads like what it is. Inane chatter. --michener \_ It's already tracked (or at least was before Soda got paved) in /csua/lib/wall . Or did you not know that already? Why do you want to make wall so easily crawlable by Google? \_ I think there's a realistic concern for expectation of privacy. Lots of people wall things like "my boss is an idiot," which are not trade secrets but which would not be walled if the expectation were that it would wind up on Google. -tom \_ Which is why you have the choice of whether or not to log your walls. \_ I think that's stupid. How would you feel if all of your IRC and AIM and Yahoo IM and Google Chat conversations appeared when someone searches or stumbles on your name in Google? \_ Ah, but they don't. And wall doesn't have to if you don't want it to. \_ Are you a retard? I am making up a situation to illustrate my point. If you start archiving the wall log on google, this stuff will happen. I have some pretty funny wall logs saved from years ago where someone on soda accidentally walls about some horrible things that I will not mention because you will be scarred for life. I would never ever put this somewhere google would find it. Making everyone not log their walls is stupid. \_ Erm. Some people don't care whether what they say is available to the public. Wall has been \_ maybe you should start caring. I think arbitrarily sticking soda walls on google when soda walls predate google by like 10 years is not the correct way to do things. \_ Uh, we've always done it this way so we should keep doing it this way? That's idiotic. -dans public for a long time. The non-logging option was put in for those who _were_ concerned. If you want to use it, use it. If you're worried about someone saving your non-logged walls, don't wall. Who said anything about "making everyone not log their walls"? btw, RealClimate guy, you just overwrote me. merge your changes. \_ That's not a reasonable response. -tom \_ That's not a reasonable response. -tom, arbiter of all things reasonable \_ IIRC, that's exactly why that functionality was written into wallall. Also when lwall/walld was still running, walls were publicly read/write available \_ "publicly readable" is not the same as "indexed by Google." And it is quite annoying when people don't log their walls. -tom don't log their walls. -tom hasn't attended a politubro meeting or csua event in years despite working on the Berkeley campus, but still feels the politburo and the undergrads should do what he wants, when he wants it. tom commands the politburo to give him a blow job! \_ Logging walls is so you can do a tail -whatever !* wall_log when you log in and see the context of an ongoing conversation, not to make it public ("public" in this case being visible and indexed on the great big Internet.) Meditate briefly on the difference, young padawan--great truths may be revealed. -John \_ Oh, look, an undergrad wrote some code to do something new, and it messes with the little sandbox we've been playing in for the last decade! Wah Wah! Let's lynch the upstart prick! Seriously though, I am disgusted by how certain alums treat soda and the CSUA as their personal pissing ground, expect that *nothing* will ever change, and abuse undergrads who actually write interesting software. The situation is fucked up. It needs to stop. -dans \_ Take a chill pill, dans. This is about a specific feature that would have undesirable consequences for both undergrads and alumns. Don't turn it into some battle of the ages between us evil alumns and the poor oppressed undergrads we're constantly shitting on. -John \_ Um I don't think disagreeing with an idea counts as abuse. The root post of this thread is just someone expressing an opinion. Get over yourself. The RSS thing is kind of cool but personally, I don't think wall fits what RSS is for. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. But I hardly even use wall anyway so it doesn't really matter to me. What actually is the point of wall going out as an RSS feed? wall is more of a real time conversation mechanism, not a news feed thing. Having motd.[official and/or unofficial] on it would make more sense. \_ No, disagreeing with an idea is not abuse, but when specific alumni repeatedly gang up against the undergrads, flame the politburo and root, and troll the motd, it adds up to abuse. What's so fucked about this situation \_ Well you know, geeks sometimes don't have the best social skills. They attack \_ Then maybe we should go back to beating social skills into them. everything because this is how they function in their engineering jobs. But they might not be wrong. is that there is a technological solution for enabling wallrss while stopping Google from spidering it, but none of the alums who bitch so loudly are stepping up with code or configs to solve the problem. Why the hell should the alumni get to decide what the undergrads can and can't do? That's stupid. -dans to solve the problem. Just becaus you can do \_ I'm still waiting for action on the last two things I've "stepped up" with. \_ Namely? Maybe the ugrads are more interested in rolling new functionality than trying to recreate soda exactly the way it has been for the last decade? Maybe they're busy kids doing this in their spare time, not treating CSUA root work as a paid job. -dans \_ perhaps they (or you) shouldn't suggest mailing root and stepping up then \_ Hey, if they (or I) can con you into doing free work, but pick and choose what we implement when, more power to us. -dans \_ yes, it's always better to jerk people around. this is why people bitch instead of doing stuff. --------------------------------------/ \_ Actually, I find a mixture of jerking people around and rewarding them works best. It simulates gambling, which causes people to work like madmen. -dans \_ I hope this is a feeble attempt at humor.... \_ No, I find it's a legitimate management technique of last resort. Works nicely with ornery, lazy teams, but isn't really necessary for teams of smart folks who get things done. -dans something doesn't mean you should, but if you use that as an excuse never to do anything, nothing would ever change. -dans
 2006/4/26-5/2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42838 Activity:nil 4/26 http://csua.com Berkeley MOTD is back in the form of static HTML. Search and other features (24 Hour Diff) disabled since they require dynamic CGIs. Enjoy!
 2006/4/23-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42806 Activity:nil 4/22 From the minutes: "mrauser says he will look into setting up a non-motd forum." Farewell, motd. Nice knowing you. \_ That's in addition to the motd, not instead of it. \_ Will the new moderated forum allow us to expose dans as a total nut case? \_ er, hasn't this already been exposed to anyone paying attention? \_ I'd be more impressed if the new forum had a way to hide the fact. \_ If you want to host the source for http://csua.org/motd let me know and it's all yours. If you want something that's actually forum-like, nevermind. --dbushong
 2006/4/21-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42795 Activity:nil 4/21 Um, does anyone miss the Berkeley MOTD? I guess not :(( -kchang \_ I'll massage your ego. Yes I miss it but I figured it was still down pending more important fixes. \_ Ok good. I was thinking about turning it off for good, as it may cut down on time wasted on it and maybe even increase productivity, or something to that effect -kchang \_ useful for the search feature -- better than skimming cvs diffs. But I don't need to search all that often anyways \_ It's very useful when the motd is hoppin', especially the diff feature. However, the motd isn't as busy as usual right now, since not everyone is back from the crash yet. I like Berkeley MOTD, but I don't need it so much right now. -jrleek
 2006/4/17-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42766 Activity:moderate 4/17 I would like to start a list of thing for root to fix at their leisure (in no particular order): - restore /csua/tmp - Appears /etc/motd.public is not merged into /etc/motd - tin (yes, I still use it to read usenet). \_ trn, mtd \_ dict \_ tin (I was the op, but this either got deleted by accident or it is installed. If installed, please point me to the correct directory. Thanks). \_ mtd does not have proper permissions to do this. \_ motdwatch \_ me (motdedit) \_ /csua/bin/motdedit \_ What in motdedit doesn't work? I believe the only error in it is that it is running /csua/bin/mtd (the merging script) after you finish editing. I think its working fine except for the mtd program being borked. \_ curl \_ apache cgi \_ turning cgi off in homedirs was a concious choice, we wanted to give people the time to check out thier websites to make sure that they weren't messed with. Allowing cgi's to be run from user's homedirs could potentially allow the machine to be compromised very soon after the re-install. It was either disable them, or chmod 700 to _everyones_ public html folder. I apologise if its inconvenient, but we will re-enable them after a few more people have thier accounts un-sorried. \_ Perhaps as a temporary measure, you can make ExecCGI one of the options that people may override in their .htaccess files (see AllowOverride) so individuals may turn their cgi's back on? -dans \_ past wall logs aaron deleted \_ waah waah you stupid cunt \_ jove \_ motdbrowser \_ never heard of it \_ jove \_ Take this opportunity to learn emacs. Installing jove is a personal accomodation we dont have the luxury to bother with.
 2006/4/17-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42764 Activity:kinda low 4/17 Interesting. Did all of the people that troll the motd with political stuff forget to turn their accounts back on? \_ Who are some of the users you will not miss? dans? tom? ilyas? \_ Root is likely still in process of adding access back for everyone. They'll be back -- it's just going to take a little time. \_ shut up. I'm enjoying their lack of presence right now. \_ Cool. This supports my hypothesis that they are parasites who treat soda as a pissing ground, and think the motd is their personal playground. Good riddance. -dans \_ That sounds like the sort of thing a hippy tree-hugger would say. Why do you hate our troops? \_ Because they kill people and killing is wrong! The Bible says so! -hippy bible thumper \_ Hi dans, want to argue about world population and birth control? \_ No. -dans \_ don't want to risk of having account terminated due to certain political view. Right now, it's too easy to blame Soda for everything.
 2006/4/17-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42760 Activity:nil 4/17 Our quota increased by a lot. What are some of the reasons why we must keep /csua/tmp/*, besides storing tons *.mp3/mpg/avi files around for eons? \_ It's a bigger /tmp for sharing things. \_ Ok, then autodelete anything more than 2 days old which isnt world readable. \_ I second this idea. /csua/tmp/* encourages people to collect junk irresponsibly. If people must collect junk, increase their quota, so they can be held accountable for whatever quota they use. /csua/tmp/* existed before the huge quota increase (20meg quota). The need for it now is questionable. \_ once again, my old motd archives in /csua/tmp got lost. I have off-soda backups, I doubt I'll bring them back. -ERic
 2006/4/11-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42736 Activity:nil 4/11 Can some root-type person please restore /csua/bin/motdedit ? \_ I don't have root, but you're more welcome to use ~kchang/bin/motdedit2 It has anti-nuke capabilities plus it doesn't clobber other people up. I don't guarantee that it's bug free so use it at your own risk. -kchang other people up. \_ setuid 123 permission denied?
 2006/3/26-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42442 Activity:nil 3/26 I'm currently taking an approach to life that includes elimination of things which are both unecessary and unpleasant. I'm not quite sure whether rants on the MOTD qualify, but I'm leaning towards yes. In which case, do they exist only because of immaturity? This is not a troll, I'm interested in what people think. -jhs \_ Log off. Go outside. Repeat. \_ Posting them or reading them? :-) I suspect most of them are posted from boredom and most reply out of boredom just to keep it going to give everyone something to do during the day. If motd rants are that high on your list then either you're spending way too much time here or I envy the tiny unpleasantness in your life. IMO, they're mostly harmless. \_ I have lots of awesome right now -jhs \_ Agreed, they're mostly harmless. I don't take the motd too seriously, it's basically verbal jousting for me. Occasionally it includes useful information. Once in a while there's a good, i.e. well reasoned, thoughtfully argued, discussion to be had, but, if the motd is representative, then most CS folk have poor rhetoric and debate skills. It is a \- The Calif state high school debate champions for 1985 work for for Cisco and Tivo. For 1986 champions, one did CS undergrad at the 'Fraud (but then as with his partner, went to law school). Half of the best team in 1984 [didnt win state but won the berkeley tourney] is working for Sun. Another of the mid-80s power pair has one half who made a lot of $$early at oracle and then went through so-so dot coms and his parner did cs undergrad at UCB and then PHD at UIUC in compliers. dot coms and his parner did cs undergrad at ucb and then phd at uiuc in compliers. \_ I don't have stories this impressive, but 1/2 of my HS debate team (~10 ppl) went to Cal for some eng. major (mostly EE/CS). Many, including myself, have since moved on to law school. Of the last 4 interns I've hired from Cal, all were HS Varsity debate w/ a tourney win. I always thought that HS debate was basically some- thing that many engineers did in HS b/c it was one of those activities like chess club or computer club where you could hang out w/ other intelligent ppl and talk about completely useless stuff that normal, well adjusted kids couldn't care less about (like the benefits of running a counterplan). reliable source for amusement in the form of trolling and trash-talking. In my family, this was our after-dinner entertainment. After we had a serious discussion about politics, ethics, current events, or whatever over dinner, my brothers and I would play a game of trash-talking top this. Although it's crass, there is a real art to it and it takes creativity and intelligence to do it well. If you find it unnecessary and unpleasant then the motd probably isn't the best place to spend your spare time. The motd has a tradition of crass trolling and namecalling that predates both of us by easily a decade. -dans \_ I've rant'ed on the motd from time to time and I think it was helpful to have some people to talk to when things were going badly at work, &c. Its like calling up your brother and blowing off steam b/c QA can't get their fracking act together and you have to spend ya weekend at work b/c of their screwups. \_ Totally agree. And it's cheaper than therapy too! \_ Sorry, I mean the flame wars more than the rants -jhs \_ I guess flame wars are unpleasant, but I'm not sure they are unnecessary. Sometimes its better for people to work out their idiocy in a safe environment, like the motd, rather than irl. I've had to work w/ some real arses over the years; if they talked out of arse on the motd instead of in the hallways, the overall work env. would have been better. I'm guessing that some of the usual suspects re flaming on soda are probably nicer in person b/c they can get that stuff out of their system. Unless I'm really bored, I just skip the flame threads. Usually there is plenty of non-flame stuff on the motd. \_ Potato, potato. They do appear to be correlated. Perhaps a better solution is to write some code. Imagine a motd viewing utility that allows you to mark threads you want to ignore. Voila, all the motd love, none of the flame wars. I've got bigger irons in the fire, but I may right this some time. -dans \_ I am sure kchang has written this already. \_ urlP \_ http://wigu.com/overcompensating/2006/03/misspent-leisure.html  2006/3/26-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42436 Activity:high 3/25 dans, just an observation, please don't get mad at me. For a nice quiet Saturday night, you sure are using a lot of exclamations and a lot of cuss words. Normally I'd go out to the beach or somewhere more interesting and pleasant than the motd. However, I have a project that's due next week so I'm reading the motd. What's your excuse for using the motd? Just curious. \_ Heh. I'm not mad at anyone on the motd. I swear frequently in informal situations, particularly when namecalling is involved. English, motherfucker, do you speak it?'' is a quote from Pulp Fiction. I'm putting the finishing touches on some code I spent the last month writing, and will put a release announcement on the motd when it's ready. I read and respond to the motd while waiting for emacs TRAMP mode to save files since it lags a bit when writing to soda, which is actually due to a workaround for a FreeBSD bug. As soon as I finish, I plan to either cuddle at home with my girlfriend or go out partying with her and other friends. -dans Fiction. If my language is harsh, it's provoked by people writing posts that are either disingenuous (i.e. intellectually dishonest) or outright stupid and naive. As for what I'm doing writing on the \_ If it's "informal" which I read as "just the motd" then why do you seem so easily provoked? If you're in a text only world then when you slap unnecessary curses into your rants you only come off looking like a ranting child. It doesn't get any other point across. \_ "One man's vulgarity is another man's lyric." -jharlan \_ "One man's vulgarity is another man's lyric." Who are you to judge? -jharlan \_ This is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Frankly, trying to make a point on the motd is kind of silly. There are a handful of people like John, jrleek and myself who are open-minded enough to actually read the motd and change our opinions based on a well reasoned argument, and even admit we are wrong once in a while. \_ emarkp still thinks the Iraq War is good. \_ Nice and all but "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?" isn't an argument. If you'd actually made an argument then you'd have something. You \_ Yes, the argument was that the pp's english reading comprehension was poor since s/he ignored the rather important phrase appear to be'' in my statement. Apparently, foul language interferes with your reading comprehension. -dans ranted like an idiot child. I don't care beyond \_ Are you suggesting that all rants, that is, violent or extravagant speech acts are childish and idiotic? If not, what makes my rant' childish and idiotic? Please support your statements with facts. -dans \_ You realise I could go through your response \_ sic and toss your own "Please support your statements with facts" line back at you since you don't but it would be a waste of my time. I was just trying to help you out but you're obviously much more brilliant and clever than me and on par with award winning drama which I can't compete with. Thank you for sharing your wit and brilliance with us. I look forward to more random and off topic cursing and avoidance of issues that were addressed which you pretend weren't. All of this is opinion but I'd bet anything that someone who goes through life telling people, \_ You are incorrect sir. Strangely enough, you continue to waste your time by responding to me. Funny that. -dans I was just trying to help you out but you're obviously much more brilliant and clever than me and on par with award winning drama which I can't compete with. Thank you for sharing your wit and brilliance with us. I look forward to more random and off topic cursing and avoidance of issues that were addressed which you pretend weren't. All of this is opinion but I'd bet anything that someone who goes through life telling people, "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?" is not going to do as well as someone who doesn't, all else being equal. Perhaps your \_ I do just fine for myself, thank you very much. -dans award winning brilliance puts you outside the curve. Will you be providing any free tickets to your motd followers to attend the awards ceremony next year? \_ Is this a sad attempt at humor? Or just a weak insult? -dans the bit waste generated but I thought you might \_ Because bandwidth is a precious unrenewable commodity. -dans care how you come across to someone who doesn't know you but it doesn't hurt me either way what decisions you make for yourself. I've changed my mind about numerous things based on what I've read on the motd but never from anything from a non-response like, "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?". I don't even see why you'd bother posting such a thing. Better to not post at all, IMO. There are some situations where dropping some curse words adds value; the motd isn't one of them. \_ This is your opinion. Please provide facts to support this. -dans As an aside, I find it funny to see you switch back and forth between holier-than-thou and idiot-child mode, especially when you get into holier-mode (and attack other random people who aren't even here) to cover your moments of idiocy. The opinions here on many topics cover a wide spectrum and sometimes get heated and we joke about the motd being a wasteland, but the truth is you're talking to the top 1% edge of the general population where "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?" isn't taken well and adds nothing. Take care. \_ by you; do you speak for the motd populace at larges for they have no voices to speak with? -dans \_ While PP gives every indication of being a pretentious blowhard cock monkey, I think most people here are getting a bit tired of half of the motd being the dans vs. the world show. At least the ilyas flame wars were usually about politics or philosophy, and not just personal insults and OS crap. \_ That's Mr. Cock Monkey to you, pal! -pp \_ OS crap? Dude, this is the Computer Science Undergraduate Association! I'm sure the Philosophy and Political Science Undergraduate Assocations have motd where you can argue those topics to your hearts content. If it really trips you out, you can delete threads I post in, but I think that the other half of the motd would be upset at the nukefest. -dans nukefest. Also, it may be that my tendency to sign my posts biases the observation that leads to the dan vs. the world conclusion. -dans \_ Well, that and the content.... \_ As mentioned above, English, motherfucker, do you speak it'' is a quote from Pulp Fiction, which won an Academy Award for best screenplay. It's not exactly an obscure reference. And it supports my preceding sentence where I ask what the pp on that thread didn't grok about the phrase appear to be''. I posted it because it was a) likely amusing to anyone who got the reference and b) hammered my point home. Question, have you ever read anything by Christopher Hitchens? What do you think of him? In particular, have you read The Missionary Postion,'' his rather nasty character assassination of Mother Teresa? What did you \_ Why is this a "character assassination"? will agree with this term if you do not give it a negative stigma, but if half of what he claimed about her is true, she did not deserve to be sainted, and he has a point. Several good articles have been written about the nasty sides of her and similar organizations. Now back to your original flame war. -John think of it? I don't mean to suggest my rhetoric is anywhere near the level of Hitchens'. My only point is that nastiness and harsh language do not make an argument childish, and it's childish to believe that they do. -dans Most other regular posters that bother to sign their posts, e.g. tom, ilyas, jblack, are such stubborn, delusional bastards that they will *never* change there opinions. Or, rather, in seven plus years of reading and posting to the motd, I've never seen them change an opinion or admit to being wrong. If you'll dismiss an argument as a senseless rant purely because it has \_ as opposed to ad hominems because somebody uses a term like AssOS \_ I don't believe that suggesting someone is biased for using the term AssOS is an ad hominem. Please cite an ad hominem I used to refer to psb with. Otherwise, consider looking up the definition of ad hominem. I used the term AssholeOS to refer to FreeBSD, and, given the typical behavior of the FreeBSD community members, it's as reasonable a moniker for the OS as AssOS is for Linux. Thus, it is not an ad hominem. -dans profanity in it, then you're a fool. This is the motd, not Forensics, Speech, and Debate club. -dans motd on a Saturday night, I'm putting the finishing touches on some code I spent the last month writing, and will put a release announcement on the motd when it's ready. I read and respond to the motd while waiting for emacs TRAMP mode to save files since it lags a bit when writing to soda, which is actually due to a workaround for a FreeBSD bug. As soon as I finish, I plan to either cuddle with my girlfriend or go out partying with her and other friends. -dans \_ Awsome. So what are you coding? \_ Hey, have you figured out a way for TRAMP to warn you that the file has changed before updating it? \_ TRAMP appears to do this for me. Does it not do this for you, or is there some sort of bug? The two things I set in my .emacs to impact TRAMP behavior are: (setq-default auto-save-timeout 600) and I set tramp-chunksize to 150, which I did through emacs graphical customization interface. I suspect something like: (setq tramp-chunksize 150) would be what you want. -dans \_ TRAMP doesn't seem to warn me if the file has changed, unlike when I'm editing local files. I usually try to do a revert-buffer and then add my change, but that isn't a 100% fool proof sol'n. \_ Strange, I don't have this problem. Hmm, what host are you working with? What is your shell? I have it working on soda and several of my own boxes running Linux. I switched my shell to bash on soda because I didn't feel like beating my head against a wall trying to make TRAMP work with tcsh. Hmm... you're trying to edit the motd, aren't you? I don't use it for that, so the check if file has changed issue doesn't come up as often for me. -dans \_ My remote host is OS X running the dp emacs-devel. My soda shell is bash. Yes, I'm trying to edit the motd and I'm trying to play nice. \_ Sorry, I don't think I'll be of much help. I'm running a similar environment, but I edit the motd locally in vi. What if you wrote a script to copy the motd, and, when you saved your copy, it would check if the motd had changed. If no, overwrite the motd, if yes, give you a diff or something? -dans \_ Solved my problem: M-x diff-buffer-with-file works w/ TRAMP.  2006/3/22-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42379 Activity:nil 3/22 To make a long story short... I have NO idea why one of the tables got corrupted (mysql said "This is marked as 'crash', please repair this table"). I've run REPAIR TABLE and now Berkeley MOTD is working again. Thanks for the quick notification. FYI I've run Berkeley MOTD for a while and this is the first time something like this has happened. If you know why and how to fix it please email me. Thanks guys -kchang \_ Just curious, why do you bother or care? \_ someone important asked me to do it. \_ i'll repair YOUR table \_ Are you using MyISAM (default) or InnoDB tables? MyISAM tables can and do corrupt if you hit mysql hard enough. In theory, InnoDB tables should be immune from this. Obviously switching to a different RDBMS is not a decision to take lightly, but, as a worst case scenario, consider switching to postgres, which is definitely more robust than mysql. -dans  2006/3/20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42328 Activity:nil 3/20 If you're going to troll the motd today, please make that extra effort and at least try to use proper grammar. I know you like to pretend that you are an angry immigrant troll who just moved to Berkeley but I know you had to take the TOEFL before being admitted so I know you're not a moron. Thank you.  2006/3/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42270 Activity:high 3/16 Can we seed little CSUAs in other universities? Instead of friendly Irish bartenders, they will need their own toms. http://www.slate.com/id/2137893 \_ It's normal enough to have sister clubs at different schools. The problem with the CSUA is that it's basically an obsolete organization type. No one needs a club to get access to computing resources anymore. \_ ... but everyone needs a world-writable MOTD. \_ BTW, the charter of the CSUA is not about access to computing resources (that's what the UCF was and the OCF is for). The CSUA is a social organization for people who care about CS. \_ seems like people care more about I.T. than real CS here. Indeed, the CSUA existed for many years without its own computer(s). \_ But the glory days of the CSUA were when computing resources were scarce and real oses scarcer. \_ Correlation, but hardly causation. You could just as well say that the glory days of the CSUA were when CS was an avocation instead of a vocation. And even that would be wrong, since the CSUA was irrelevant and on the verge of complete disappearance in 1986. \_ No, he's sort of right in that it provided a pretty nifty place to take a break from the labs. -John \_ Computing resources were still quite scarce in 1986. \_ The CSUA did not get its own computer till 1988, I think. The scarcity of computing resources in 1986 did not mean it was the glory days of the organization. It's only in the last five to ten years that every new UCB student started to bring a new computer, and only the last five that it's been a laptop. It's not that the CSUA is obsolete, I think that there are some key ideals and core values that will never be obsolete. I think the organization needs to reinvent itself for a new millenium when hardware is cheap, fast, and abundant while still maintaining those ideals and core values. -dans P.S. The CSUA is the second oldest active ASUC student group on campus. The only active group that predates us is CHAOS, the Cal Hiking and Outdoors Society. \_ Hmm, I'd say closer to 10-15 for computers, though I'd agree with the last 5 for laptops (probably even less)...though I suspect I've dated myself with this post.... -mice \_ Doesn't ANY post to the motd kinda date the poster? \_ heh, very funny. \_ It's not like anyone else would. -John \_ Heh, I was wondering if someone would hook into that. Punk. :P -mice \_ "Straight line"... :-) -John \_ Elaine has her own ASUC student group? Wow! \_ ? \- there is more to that then you think. --psb \_ Please cite the relevant portions of the CSUA charter that state it is a social organization. -dans \_ What is this charter everyone keeps talking about? BTW, from the constitution: to provide a forum for the personal interaction of persons involved in the computer science \_ The CSUA constitution was written years after the organization formed, and written because the ASUC insisted that we have one. That's why our governing body is called the politburo, it was a way of thumbing our noses at the ASUC. Presumably, we had a charter before then. To quote the complete text from the constitution: The purposes of this organization are: to represent the undergraduate computer science student body in dealings with the University of California at Berkeley, its representatives, and any other appropriate organization; to provide a forum for the personal interaction of persons involved in the computer sciences; to promote knowledge of and interest in the computer sciences; and to raise funds to accomplish these goals. So, yes, we're a social organization, but this is by no means our only purpose. Providing access to computing resources falls under promoting knowledge of and interest in CS, as well as providing a forum for social interaction. -dans \_ You quote a very selective history. For at least a decade, the mantra at meetings was "The CSUA is _PRIMARILY_ a social organization. We have some interesting resources for you to play around with, but we're not here to hold your hand computer-wise" \_ Please show me documentation of this. It conflicts with my recollection, which was that we have interesting resources to play with, but we're not here to hold your hand computer-wise because we're curmudgeonly bastards who think you should figure shit out for yourself. Socializing had nothing to do with it. I should also note that the we're not here to hold your hand'' attitude is decidedly anti-social. -dans \_ It's really not even worth discussing this with you. You've declared yourself arbiter of the realm. I'm with the majority here. You've proven yourself obnoxious. \_ Majority? I must have missed the vote. I'm sorry if you find my requests for actual documentation obnoxious, but I'm genuinely interested in the historical record of the CSUA and like collection more data points. -dans \_ grep -ir social /csua/www/htdocs/Minutes \_ How about seeding little sodans in other universities instead? \_ I volunteer to seed undergraduates! \_ UCLA and UCD both had CSUA's when I was an ug. I wonder if they are still around? UCLA had a linux club a few years back that strongly reminded me of the CSUA, but they had no world writable motd. \_ My sister is attending Santa Cruz, and was thinking of starting a CSUA like organization. They have a club for black engineers, hispaic engineers, women engineers, and IEEE. I told her she should probably just join the IEEE if she wanted a club that didn't come with a designation. club that didn't come with a designation. -jrleek \_ Who are you? Who is your sister? My girlfriend is attending Santa Cruz. -dans \_ It's me, jrleek. My sister is in CS, this is her first year. -jrleek \_ Neat. Ask her if she wants to meet my gf, Belen. She's in her second year, probably majoring in Music, but flirting with a CS minor. -dans \_ Are you trying to set up POLYAMORY? \_ Are you a MORON? -dans \_ This name and location has been noted. --unstable motd stalker \_ What location? I stated the institution she attends not her location. -tricky dans \_ School + Music + unusual name... not too hard eh? Granted, I'm a very lazy stalker. But there may be less lazy ones. --ums \_ *probably* majoring in Music. You'd have a much easier time stalking her through myspace. -dans  2006/3/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42209 Activity:nil 57%like:42200 3/11 Americans full of contradictions, and as stupid as ever: [URL changed, now deleted, see kais motd] \_ Stupid? Why? Because a bunch of them don't share your black/white views on a very complex and highly charged topic? If only the world was really as simple as you see it.... \_ The OP is not alone. http://www.slate.com/id/2137775 \_ Did you actually read the slate article and compare to what the OP is saying? They're in different universes from each other. OP lives in his nice little black'n'white with-me- or-against-me world, the slate article is all about people with a variety of subtle and dare I say nuanced opinions. BTW, thanks for the slate url. \_ One person in the room raised her hand to say there are too many abortions in the US. No one else did. Now, do you think the OP is in the camp of that one hand-raiser or of everyone else in the room? \_ Apples. Oranges. What's your point?  2006/3/10-13 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42171 Activity:nil 3/10 DISCLAIMER: Dear current csua students-- the bickering between tom and dans is NOT representative of current alumni and your future, and is certainly NOT typical behaviour from typcial alumni. Most of us have a bit more humour and are much more optimistic, forgiving, and helpful. Most of us understand that what happened in the past, is history and no one really give a damn. What's important is _now_, the present time, because we can do something to make csua a better organization. You [current students] have our support. You certainly have my moral support, but don't count on getting any money from me because I'm a cheapskate alum who can't even afford a typical house, a 60 year old run down house for 800K in San Jose or Santa Clara even with my near 6-digit salary so I'm forced to buy a fucking 600K house out of nowhere north of Gilroy and suffer traffic every single fucking day. FUCK!! !!! Oops, I'm only joking. I'm not bitter. Really. Go Cal. BEAT STANFORD! \_ Thanks a lot for your show of support. Don't worry I realize that most often the silent minority who agree with policy/direction can be drowned out by a vocal minority. With recently getting new soda we are actually ok in regards to the constant need for more money. It sounds like maybe we should go panhandle for change to help you out though. :P I hope you manage to make it to the alumni bbq and can meet some of the current students. -mrauser, president Just so you know, its highly unlikely that more than 1-2 current students ever read the motd (myself included) and thus probably have no idea that tom and dans are bickering. \_ Bingo! \_ 2ded. I personally think that the CSUA is a great student organization and am proud to be an alum member. I have hired several CSUA members as interns and full time employees and will continue to support the CSUA morally and financially. On a side note, I have been greatly impressed by the dedication of the recent politburo members (props to jvarga and mrauser) and hope that the CSUA continues to recruit dedicated ugs. GO BEAH! \_ 3ded.  2006/3/9-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42170 Activity:low 3/7 Look tom and dans. Both of you have points and supporting facts. But most of us aren't concerned at who's right/wrong. So how about shaking hands with your enemy for now, and even if the other side is still unforgiven, at least fake a truce. That way you can attack when the time is right and we'll have our peace on motd. Thanks \_ hey I wanted to see where it goes. don't delete it til tomorrow. Why do you need peace on motd? How boring. \_ There's a famous novel I read in HS to which I forgot the title but basically it described a guy truck driver driving on the highway, saw a turtle on the road, and swerved in order to crush it. Then a gal driver saw the turtle, swerved in order to avoid it. So, I guess you're the driver and you're trying to cause harm in order to get pleasure from it, or something \- turtle novels: blade runner is the standard but you probably mean grapes of wrath. you know it just occurred to me, it is not unlikely i read GoW before you were born. did you read a certain novel involving a tree and a prep school and conflict and hate, too?  2006/3/8-10 [Computer/SW/P2P, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42150 Activity:kinda low 3/8 Dude, chill out dans. Go out to the beach or something, it's really nice out there. \_ Dude, I just spent the last week on the beach in Santa Cruz. The \_ Dude, I just spent the last weak on the beach in Santa Cruz. The motd is what I do when I'm waiting for code to compile, tests to run etc. -dans \_ I suspect you didn't actually spend a week on the beach. Or were you camping on it? \_ Okay, let me rephrase, I spent a week in a house that looks out on the beach. As in literally walk 10 feet across the street and you're on the beach. -dans \_ Well, ok then. Good for you. What did you do in SC, coding? You seem pretty angry on motd for some reason. Anyways, how does one go about living near the beach for a week? Craigslist? \_ Spent quality time with my girlfriend, hacked on a project \_ wait what??? I thought you're gay I'm really into, caroused with friends, and cooked and ate lots of tasty, fresh food. In my case, I'm fortunate to be part of a circle of friends that values sharing our resources \_ http://www.polyamory.org/SF/poly-folks \_ Wow. That's a leap. -dans with each other. A number of us are successful geeks who are always happy to take in guests. No, I'm not angry. To me, the motd is like fight club without the stitches. It's a nice place to spar with written arguments. Sometimes its informative, and I learn about my fellow CSUAers or change my point of view. Sometimes it's like beating the crap out of Jared Leto, i.e. picking apart weak arguments until the other person gives up and nukes the thread. -dans \_ You just violated the first two rules of fight club.  2006/3/8-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42148 Activity:kinda low 3/8 Boy, neutering KAIS motd really upped the level of discourse around here. \_ Scuse me? Why is it neutered? It's still working. \_ Hello, I'm the op. I'm still waiting for an answer. It seems to work. Why did you think it was neutered? By the way it is now called "Berkeley MOTD." Even Google recognizes Berkeley MOTD.  2006/3/8-9 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW/Editors/Vi] UID:42140 Activity:moderate 3/8 Poll, stupid political drivels make the motd: more interesting: ..... stupid: .. \_ This poll question has an inherent bias! \_ What would the motd be w/o drivel? \_ more linux vs. freebsd drivels? vi vs. emacs drivels? I'll take technical drivels over pointless political ones any day  2006/3/7-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42132 Activity:high 3/7 Isn't it squishable to use something like fold to modify motd? \_ maybe. who is doing it? \_ Yes, but no one cares anymore. \_ No. It's theoretically squishable to have something automatically modifying the MOTD every three minutes via fold or some other method, but ever since paolo did it, it seems anything goes. -tom \- What if you are an obsessive compulsary guy like me who checks the motd every 5 minutes _manually_ and do repeated things to motd _manually_? How do you distinguish between changes done via a script that keeps calling fold or just someone like me? Is it squishable because of one's ultimate intent to motd regardless of actual changes, or is it squishable only when the actual changes are made repeatedly, regardless of method? \_ The only cases I know of where someone was squished for modifying the MOTD were when it was being done automatically. Being an idiot is not the same as being a hoser. -tom Being an idiot is not the same as being a hoser. For example I am an idiot and marco was a hoser. -tom \_ The horse is dead tom. Please stop beating it. -dans PS, I'm a little dubious of your standing to bitch about CSUA policy since you've done so since before I got to Berkeley in '97, and continued to do so until I finished in '04, and, to my knowledge, you never once showed up at a politburo meeting. I'm under the impression that you work on the Berkeley campus so it's not like you have distance as an excuse. \_ I've been to general meetings during that time frame. I think the current undergraduates really should be in charge of setting policy and direction for the CSUA, but I also think that it's inappropriate and inexcusable for a CSUA officer to intentionally and deceptively screw up a public CSUA resource. -tom \_ Fair enough. Even so, I can say your knowledge of the so-called paolo motd squishing incident is incomplete. There are facts you don't have that were discussed by the then current undergraduate members of the politburo in closed session, and a policy decision was made based on those facts. Thus, in this case, your hard line stance on the issue is in conflict with your statement that undergrads should set policy and direction. Seriously though, it's been for years. Don't you think it's time to move on? -dans \_ Don't you think the politburo should have responded to the person who brought the complaint? I never heard a single word. And I can't imagine what facts there could be which would mitigate the situation enough that the CSUA President would not have to at least admit wrongdoing and apologize--unless you believed paolo's total BS about how his process really was pine and it was checking mail every three minutes. Closed politburo session for disciplining a politburo member is also total BS. -tom \_ It would mitigate the situation if the President's apparently anti-social act that stomped on your playground actually benefited the greater good of the CSUA. If the University was pressuring the CS department to shut off the CSUA's net taps *permanently* in response to complaints that the motd was in gross violations of campus hate speech/fighting words statutes, then nuking the motd would benefit this greater good. I phrase this as a hypothetical because I can't disclose specifics on the record without betraying the confidence of the politburo members at that time. Refer to question #18 in link:csua.org/u/f69 for more info re: campus hate speech regs (sorry, it's a PDF). And, also hypothetically, perhaps the politburo didn't respond to the person who raised the complaint because they felt that the individual's language and attitude was abusive and demanding, and they felt disinclined to interact with such an individual? If said individual raised his/her complaint in person at a politburo meeting with the same language and attitude, I suspect the politburo would have told him to Fuck off' in so many words. As is, they let sleeping dogs lie. You can state that Closed politburo session for disciplining a politburo member is also total BS,'' but that's your opinion. The undergraduates on the politburo made a policy decision regarding how they wanted to handle the matter. If you truly believe that current undergraduates should set policy and direction, you don't get to pick and choose which policy decisions they do and don't make. -dans \_ chmod 644 /etc/motd.public is how I would solve that problem. No need to run a script to wipe motd. -mrauser \_ oh that's a load of crap and you know it. paolo was deleting the MOTD because people were taking out his postings of kinneydrivel. If he were doing it for the greater good of the CSUA, why did he name his process "pine" and lie about what it did? We're not talking about the MOTD nazi'ing after 9/11, we're talking about while (1) sleep 180 ; cp /dev/null /etc/motd.public And I do think the undergraduates should be allowed to set policy; do you think that if I put the above in a script, called it "pine", and ran it myself, that that would be OK and within CSUA policy? What a crock. -tom \_ I agree that Paolo's implementation left much to be desired, but that's neither here nor there. And yes, if nuking the motd kept us from getting our net tap shut off, while it wouldn't be OK, I'd sincerely hope that it would be forgiven. At this point the dispute is who's facts are correct. Yours run counter to my recollection, but I doubt I'm going to convince you my memory is better than yours or vice versa. But that still begs the question, why are you beating a horse that's been dead for four years? -dans \_ The facts that paolo *claimed at the time* were that he was "running tests using screen to have it run pine in the background and auto-reattach itself to my soda-shell whenever i got new mail" (his words). Apparently, when it became obvious that this was 100% bullshit, he told the politburo that he was on a SOOPER SEKRIT MISSION to SAVE THE CSUA from the EVIL LORD MULLALLY. And apparently he succeeded in his mission, despite only deleting the MOTD for about three hours on one occasion and never running his script again (at least not automatically). What an effective leader he was! I bring it up because I am still dumbfounded, not only that he did it in the first place, but that his credulous cronies let him get away with it. Maybe you believed his bullshit--that would just make you a stooge and a tool. Paolo, on the other hand, was a scumbag. -tom \_ Excuse me? Have you ever sat down and had a beer with me? Or Paolo? Paolo is a good guy and a good friend who's there when he's needed. I can attest to this as will many others. Back when he was on politburo, he worked his ass for the CSUA. So did I. You, on the other hand are a faceless bitter dour naysayer alumni who sees fit to bitch and moan about those kids these days,' but, in my seven years kicking around Berkeley, I never once saw you lift a finger for this organization. You seem to believe that \_ Excuse me? Have you ever sat down and had a beer with Paolo? Or me? I know he busted his ass for the CSUA when he was on politburo. So did I. You on the other hand seem to be a bitter dour naysayer alumnus who loves to bitch about those damned kids these days,'' but, in the seven years I was active in the CSUA, I never once saw you lift a finger for this organization. Basically, you're a parasite. You seem to think the motd is your personal playground, You think Paolo pissed on it once four years ago, and, like a child or a fanatic, you latch onto this tiny perceived slight, blow it way out of proportion, and refuse to move on or let go. Somehow, in the haze of your ongoing childish tantrum, you concluded that people you barely or never interacted with are, in your words, scumbags, stooges, and tools. My first impulse is to revert to your level and call you a wanker, but, on further reflection, I'm simply speechless. -dans and you believe Paolo pissed on it. Like a child or a fanatic, your response to this tiny perceived slight is to blow it completely out of proportion: You hold a grudge over the matter that's lasted four years (and counting). On the basis of incomplete information about a single event, you just labeled a bunch of people you've barely or never interacted with as stooges, tools, and scumbags. I'm tempted to drop to your level and call you a wanker, but, frankly, I'm just speechless. -dans \_ Way to change the subject! First of all, I am quite confident that I have both done more work for the CSUA and donated more money to the CSUA than either of you. Second, how much work any of us have done for the CSUA is completely irrelevant to whether paolo's actions were inappropriate. And it's not just that he munged the MOTD; it's that he threatened me with lawsuits and police action when I reported it. That's appropriate behavior for an officer of an organization? -tom \_ I'm not changing the subject. You called me a tool and a stooge. I can live with that. But you also slapped that label (and scumbag) on several of my friends, something I am considerably less inclined to tolerate. This is the first time you've brought up threats of lawsuits and police action. I know in your world you want us all to bow down and lick your asshole when you champion your righteous views, but a) you refuse to allow for the fact that you may be wrong and b) we live in a civil society where the police and the courts exist to adjudicate disputes between parties. You have a right to raise complaints. But if you harrass people to make your complaints heard, or your complaints are slanderous or libelous, then the wronged parties have a right to seek legal recourse. If Paolo legitimately felt you wronged him, then it is reasonable and appropriate for him to seek remedy from the police or the courts. -dans \_ except he was 100% full of shit, which is why he apparently came up with a totally new story in the SOOPER SEKRIT POLITBURO MEETING where, surprise, his friends decided not to do anything to him. -tom \_ I am ready to fight you Tom. Are you a coward? -dans \_ GUN DUEL!! \_ I did not write this. -dans \_ So you are scared to fight tom too? It is too bad for the CSUA you both lack physical courage. \_ Look tom, if it was such an important issue, and you believe so strongly in your conviction that Paolo is a liar and a scumbag,' you could have escalated your complaint to the ASUC, the CS department, or the University level. You chose not to do that. Instead, you vent on the motd with cheap shots and low blows at the parties involved four years after the fact. This is just sour grapes over the fact that the politburo decided that you were wrong, and your complaint lacked merit. Apparently you don't like to be reminded that you're not omnipotent, and sometimes this leads to incorrect conclusions. -dans \_ I didn't vent on the MOTD. I reported it to the politburo, courteously and with details. The \_ And then proceeded to vent about it on the motd for the next four years (and counting!) when the politburo decided, based on findings of fact that your complaint was without merit. -dans politburo ignored me except for paolo's reply where he lied about what he was doing, claimed he was placing a restraining order against me, and blamed me for making soda "not a place for undergraduates." (Ignoring, of course, the fact that he was the one trashing the resource). The act itself was not that big a deal, and it would have been a disservice to the CSUA to try to bring it to a higher authority. However, paolo is still a scumbag and you're still a tool. -tom \_ I am thankful I don't see the world through your eyes. -dans \_ The bottom line here is paolo was your friend and anything he did was fine. \_ No. I choose my friends because they behave like honorable human beings I can respect. I can't be friends with someone I don't respect. If he did something genuinely reprehensible, he wouldn't be my friend anymore. -dans \_ It wasn't "reprehensible"; I mean, he didn't murder anyone or steal etc. What he did do was break a CSUA policy that others have been disciplined for, and lied about it. I mean, you \_ To my knowledge, he did not lie about it. Tom accuses him of lying about it, but, as this thread shows, Tom lives in a reality distortion field so I am disinclined to believe Tom's accusation. Honor and honesty are very important to me, and while I don't view them purely in black and white, I would end a friendship over them -dans \_ So, do you believe the following? 1. I have been and was running tests using screen to have it run pine in the background and auto-reattach itself to my soda-shell whenever i got new mail (think of it as biff++). I have been running these test for several days now. I have been checking my screen sessions on soda and the programs I've been running are not only nice'd, but go to sleep awaiting a timer call. I'm using soda because some of my mail goes to soda. ... For this i am contacting the OSC and the Berkeley PD about restraining orders placed against Mr. Holub. The first two paragraphs don't jibe at all with what you claim happened at the SOOPER SEKRIT politburo meeting. And I seriously doubt he ever contact OSC or contacted OSC or the Berkeley PD. -tom --------------------------------------------------/ \_ Did Paolo cc anyone, e.g. the politburo on that mail? That is, if Paolo sent the out of context email excerpt you posted, and the statements therein are untrue, did he lie to you, or did he lie to both you *and* the politburo? I'm willing to believe he sent the email you are excerpting, I don't think your reality distortion field is so warped that you would fabricate old emails. Did it ever occur to you that his purpose was to get you off his back? If he lied to you, then it was bad form and a poor way to accomplish that end. But, apparently, it succeeded. You might feel you deserve an apology. That said, however, you make a pattern of being rude, belligerent, and nasty in your electronic communications, as evinced by your behavior on the motd. Oddly enough, this is something you and I share. The difference is that when someone responds to my nastiness by ignoring me or telling me to fuck off in so many words, I accept the consequences. You, on the other hand, demand an apology, and declare a lifelong (four years, and counting!) vendetta against the party in question. -dans \_ That was his response to my mail to root. He cc:ed root, twohey, ajani, galen, and chialea. He made similar claims on \_ Let's apply Occam's razor here. Which of the following is more plausible: a) Paolo is privately a degenerate scumbag, but his public face is that of a brilliant social engineer who counts the following people in his thrall of tools and stooges: - twohey, ajani, galen, and chialea - all root staff members - all politburo members - everyone reading wall during the time period in question b) You really weren't privy to all the details, and thus your self-righteous black and white assessment is wrong. -dans <<<<<<< /home/sgi/dcs/tms \_ This is great. If paolo sent it just to me, he was just trying to get me to go away, but if he sent it to lots of people, he must have been telling the truth. How's this for a possibility: the politburo was a bunch of paolo's friends, who didn't want to do the right thing (turn off his account and remove him as President), so they decided in "closed session" (so no one else ever knew what happened) to let it slide. Sounds pretty ontologically parsimonious to me. -tom \_ tom, do you need a hug? Maybe a nice puppy or a kitty cat for your apartment? -dans \_ How can you count 'everyone reading wall...'? \_ As tom has made abundantly clear, if you're not with tom, your against tom. Since those reading wall did not rush to tom's defense and aide, they must be part of Paolo's vast scumbag conspiracy of tools and stooges. -dans Also, another possibility is that those 'tools and stooges' in actuality chose to just let it slide, for whatever reason, since that's the easiest thing to do, and they probably had no idea what really happened and don't care much either way about the incident. ======= \_ You are a black bugger. -tom >>>>>>> /etc/motd.public \_ Sounds plausible to me. It also explains why, unlike tom, they're not still bitching about it after the fact. -dans wall. The issue has *nothing to do* with my online personality; \_ Do you have an different online personality because you are worried about getting beaten up in real life? \_ He does run away when someone makes physical threats on the motd. \_ you know, psb, a twerp like you really should stay away from talking about physical conflict. -tom it has to to with paolo trying to come up with a plausible story to dupe the credulous. He failed the first time, so apparently he came up with a totally different story, completely inconsistent with his first one, to tell at the politburo meeting. (By the way, the MOTD that day was http://www.csua.com/2001/07/11; nothing remotely resembling hate speech). -tom know, whatever, but there it is. Your politburo chose to ignore that. That thing had nothing to do with hate speech (that was the 9/11 motd shutdown). I don't think that this incident would be enough to break a friendship over. But it is quite plain that there was dishonesty there; can't you at least admit that it was a wrong thing to do especially for an officer? Anyway I don't really care and nobody else really does either but it remains an item of precedent that tom was perfectly justified in pointing out at the top of this thread. All the rest of this thread is your indignant lashing back. Anyway I don't have anything against y'all I just think it's funny. \_ "hard line stance"? Seriously.. You (by which I mean the last 5 years or so of politburo) only use terms like this because of an inflated sense of importance. I think it's time politburo stops whining about outdated criticism. \_ Um, dude, I'm making an argument. I use language appropriate for the discussion. Sense of importance has nothing to do with it. I think it's time that bitter dour naysayer alumni stop whining about four year old slights. -dans \_ For posterity, what were those facts? -!tom \_ The hypothetical I describe is pretty damn close. I can't disclose specifics without violating others' trust. Yes, it's lame, but it's also how it fell out. -dans \_ trust him, he's only wiretapping bad guys. -tom \_ I agree it's fucked. But I also gave my word. Look tom, I've been way more active in this organization in the last seven years than you have. Is there a reason your word should carry more weight than mine? -dans \_ That makes absolutely no sense. Do you actually believe that? \_ If someone asks for my opinion on a matter in confidence, I give it, in confidence. I don't put a statue of limitations on that. I value my word. -dans \_ I was referring to the hate speech theory of why noble paolo was auto-wiping the motd. \_ Berkeley has pretty strong fighting words/hate speech policies, and they were *really* on the warpath in the weeks following 9/11. -dans \_ yes, nice theory, only problem is, this was two months before 9/11. Oh, and when confronted with the evidence, paolo didn't say anything about hate speech, and there wasn't any hate speech in the MOTD that day. Unless you count kinneydrivel. -tom \_ Tom was scared after some geeks threated to physically assault him. \_ That's moderately amusing, but my point is a serious one. -dans \_ Us old farts do this for a while, then we transcend Politburo meetings for a higher plane of consciousness. You too will realize this when you graduate to old fartness, young padawan. -John \_ John, you live in Europe. I can understand if you don't make it to a single politburo meeting in seven years. Me, I don't want to transcend to a plane where I bitch about things, but make no genuine effort to alter objective reality. -dans \_ Earth to dans. Earth to dans. You already do that. \_ As if you have any standing to judge. Please keep believing that. Social, political, and economic systems share at least one thing with computers: they're easier to hack without someone looking over your shoulder. -dans \_ We're alumni. We don't have to go to meetings anymore. We've earned the right to bitch from the sidelines no matter where you are. Hey, it's the undergrads' organization, we have no business showing up :-) -John  2006/3/4-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42099 Activity:moderate 3/4 Woohoo! soda [3] wc /etc/motd 838 7249 46554 /etc/motd \_ I think it's time for everyone to like, go outside now. \_ what? and be left for dead after getting hit by a car and id'd using my iPod information?  2006/3/3-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:42086 Activity:high 3/3 Has the CSUA considered asking alumni to ccme back and give talks about the cool stuff they are doing? I'm thinking of bz (Cyan), maybe aubie (Pixar)... I'm sure there are plenty of others I'm forgetting (no offense intended). Twohey, lea, myself and others could talk about grad school. Brg could too, but I don't know if you would want that. I bet mconst could put on some kind of freaky variety show (he'll solve an open math problem, patch a critical kernel bug, then kick your ass at any video game in existence). There are distance issues involved for some folks, but if they were asked (well, if I was asked) I bet people would make an effort. I think this could be a huge draw, and take advantage of one of the CSUA's core strengths. I'll leave you with the opening to a talk I was writing for UCB undergrads about going to grad school: "This talk is either going to suck donkey balls, or rock you like an exam written by Hilfinger _and_ Garcia. And I just came from the Super-DC, where they are FRESH OUT OF DONKEY BALLS. As Yoda says, there is no try, only do." -jhs \_ I brought in a guy from work to talk about election security. It was a facinating talk, but, of course, almost no one showed up. -jrleek \_ There hasn't ever been anything resembling serious election security in this country. Probably not in most others either. \_ Umm, no duh? So we can't have a talk on it? -jrleek \_ Of course, but it's such an obscure topic for most \- vertex algebras is an obscure topic. election security is hardly obscure. people, especially the politically unaware freshmen that I'm not surprised it wasn't well attended. Do you think most people are aware elections have been rigged since forever? Most people don't even vote so why would they care if an election is manipulated or not? \_ Well, this was primarily about electronic voting. \_ Erm, isn't that sort of part of the purpose of a university, to expose you to obscure topics? -John \_ No. You're supposed to get a 'higher education' which isn't necessarily the same thing. Anyway, even if it was the point, attending a side lecture or talk like this, no matter how interesting or educational, is still voluntary. How many times were you in class when a prof went off on some side topic and someone asked, "will this be on the exam?" Thus, few people attended something that may have been quite interesting and educational. It wasn't on the midterm. \_ Of course it's voluntary. But let's face it, you could, theoretically, learn all the crap you get from a university from books. I don't know about you, but the most valuable thing I got out of Cal was the sum total of exposure to ideas and people that I would not otherwise have had access to. I think "will this be on the exam" is one of the saddest questions imaginable. -John \_ Of course it is. However Cal probably isn't the best choice for people looking for a classical liberal arts education. After the various admissions and self filtering that goes on to create a freshman class, plus the environment once you get here there isn't a lot of room for that sort of thing. Thus, you get a high percentage of people who won't attend what was probably an interesting, yet entirely voluntary/no credit talk. \_ Why not? I don't know about nowadays, but course catalog when I attended (92-96, to be honest) was jam packed with interesting, esoteric stuff. I had a lot of amazing profs _and_ good TAs, as well as contact with some really funky, smart people who enjoyed attending "interesting", voluntary talks. Same university? -John \_ You're either smart and cynical or just plain dumb. It makes me glad I devoted time and effort to fucking with your kind when they were my peers in classes or students in classes I TAed. -dans \_ Ok since you can't even figure out what "kind" I am.... I'm just glad I was here today to give you the opportunity to post how smart you are and how you abused other people in class. Whatever. I don't know what button of yours I hit with my harmless reply to John, but your response is... interesting. \_ This isn't about smart or dumb. It's about your assertion that the purpose of attending university is to get a higher education' (whatever that means), a view that I hold to be either cynical and shortsighted or outright stupid. Individuals who approach university classrooms with your attitude water down the university experience for everyone. Every time some selfish or stupid twit asks Will this be on the midterm,'' it takes away from class time that could be spent *gasp* learning. Thus, I view it as a duty to encourage others to move away from a fundamentally parasitic and harmful attitude toward the university experience, if necessary, by beating it out of them. Cheers. -dans \_ Unfortunately you didn't do as well in reading comp as you did in nastiness and self righteousness. Go re-read and try again. \_ Unfortunately your composition skills, appear grossly inferior to your apparent selfishness and defensiveness. In particular, your capacity to clearly express your views deserves as C+ at best. Back to English 1A with you. It saddens me that you think it is nasty when people call attention to the, in this case ugly, truth of your words. -dans \_ *laugh* "I know you are but what am I?" You're so funny. \_ I'm someone who has the conviction to sign my name and stand behind my words. Who are you? -dans \_ I don't play that game. You can deal with what I say, who I am is not important. If you can't deal, don't. I don't care and didn't ask you to throw your over wrought spew on the thread in the first place. You chose to join a thread and respond to an anonymous person. No one forced you. \_ Eh. -dans \_ You say I don't understand what you wrote. I say you're backpedalling because your words express a cynical and selfish attitude, and I called you on it. We can't both be right. Personally, I throw my hat in with the guy who signs hist name, but I'm biased. -dans \_ You're an idiot. -gwb \_ No, Mr. President, what you meant to say was Fuck off'' -rbc \_ I'll explain slowly for you: I have no reason to backpedal anything. I'm somewhat anonymous, this is only the motd, \_ If it's only the motd,'' why do you care so much about your anonymity? -dans \_ Meow! any intelligent person who reads English can understand what I said, \_ I disagree with this assertion. -dans \_ MeOW! I never took back a single word of it, and \_ I disagree with this assertion. -dans \_ meOW! signing your name only means you like seeing your name in lights. \_ If you believe this ridiculous idea, it directly contradicts your statement that it's only the motd.'' -dans \_ mEOw! I wouldn't take the signed over the unsigned. I would actually read what two people actually said and decide from that alone who was correct and to what degree. Their name status carries no weight. Again, you \_ Your arguments in this thread are, imprecise, sloppily worded, and, based on some readings, logically flawed. You use the resulting lack of clarity as an excuse to justify backpedalling, and then assert that any intelligent person who reads English can understand what [you] said.'' \_ MeOw! voluntarily responded to an anon person. Why bother if you automatically dismiss them on that basic \_ [sic] \_ MEOW! alone? \_ Heh. I *broke* the ASUC election system the first year it was computerized. As in I produced a demonstrably working exploit. I then took my findings to the elections chair and worked with him to secure against my exploit and other avenues of attack. I spoke about this at DefCon and Computers Freedom and Privacy in 2004. The following year the election technical lead didn't test the old code until the eve of the elections, and I led the team that wrote a superior replacement in under 8 hours. If you include time to recruit the team members, it took approx. 12 hours from start to rollout. Last I checked, this code was still in use, albeit with some modifications by OCF members. If folks \_ Oh shit. --team member would like, I'd be happy to do a talk on this. If you time it at the beginning of the ASUC election campaign season and flyer on south side, it would probably be a great way to bring in more members that don't have traditional computing backgrounds. If current CSUA members want to see this happen, email me. -dans \_ I probably would have attended. I think what you need to do is get people excited somehow, and then make sure that the talk delivers (see, for example, the series of talks by Brewer, Karp, etc, last year). The CSUA needs positive buzz. In my mind this means more than flyering - it means people going into classes and being _enthusiastic_ about what they are selling. Does current pburo have the mental energy to pull this off? Not meant as offensive. Also, as alumni, I could be wrong, full of shit, or both. -jhs  2006/3/1-4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42048 Activity:moderate 3/1 csua minutes: "Difficulty in recruitment: Right now our recruitment is in severe decline, what can we do to get people more interested in what we are doing. Infosessions will help, but will be slow to develope. This will be an open-ended discussion of things we can do to boost membership and more specifically active/interested membership." \_ Advice. Leave infosession to UCSEE and SWE that have traditionally dominated this area for the last two decades. You guys are stepping into dangerous territory and this turf war really sucks. Leave infosessions alone, bastards. If you seriously want to get more members, find a niche market, not something that steals from other established organisations. Do something new and innovative, like asking karen to do a bikini car wash drive. Hell, we'd pay for that. -anon ucsee rep \_ I don't even know what UCSEE stands for, and I want to have an infosession right now just to piss you off. What a jackass attitude. \_ Uh, CSUA has been doing help sessions on stuff for quite a while. What's the difference between "infosessions" and "help sessions"? \_ i think one has students teaching unix shells and the other has visitors from PIXR \_ UCSEE and SWE have traditionally dominated Infosessions for the last two decades? Bullshit. You're engaging in some pretty gross revision of history. First off I *know* that UCSEE and SWE (did they used to be AWICSEE, or is that a different society for women engineering group? Didn't AWICSEE's membership top out at like 6 people back in 2002?) had basically no physical presence in Soda Hall prior to 2005. I find it highly unlikely that there's been a sea change in the last two years. HKN, which does have a presence in Soda, always did a fair number of Infosessions, but it's usually hurting for original thinkers, and thus shamelessly rips off every good one the CSUA has (nb movies in 306 Soda--paolo, CSUA president circa 1999, startup jobs fair in the ASUC ballrom, i.e. a massive meta-infosession--jones, president circa 1998, I can go on...). UPE also used to have a hand in the Infosession game, but went into hibernation due to lack of interest circa 2004, has it reawakened? The CSUA charter is to serve all students with an interest in computer science, and this is simply not true for UCSEE (only EECS students in COE, and arguably only those with an EE focus) or SWE (only Women in COE). Furthermore, the CSUA provides services to the community that UCSEE and SWE don't including Help Sessions and Mentoring, and, in the past, received less money from the EECS department than either UCSEE or SWE. So let me get this straight. The CSUA serves a wider audience and provides more community services than UCSEE and SWE *combined*, but it should leave infosessions, which are conveniently the most profitable service' a CS student group may offer to UCSEE and SWE. Hogwash. Nonsense. Shite. You don't like that the CSUA is reigning in on your' turf? Try matching the CSUA's services then you can talk. All that said, the groups don't necessarily need to fight over this. The infosession landscape has at least one large, unfulfilled niche, which are smaller and/or startup companies that don't have the money to go through COE's industrial partnership program (the precise name escapes me). The CSUA can and should bring these companies to campus. Officially, they can't do recruiting' events in Soda Hall, but there are plenty of worthwhile InfoSessions that are not de jure recruiting All that said, the groups don't necessarily need to fight over this. The infosession landscape has at least one large, unfulfilled niche, which are smaller and/or startup companies that don't have the money to go through COE's industrial partnership program (the precise name escapes me). The CSUA can and should bring these companies to campus. Officially, they can't do recruiting' events in Soda Hall, but there are plenty of worthwhile InfoSessions that are not de jure recruiting events, but serve the same purpose. I did this with VMWare back when they were small and Zero Knowledge Systems (may it rest in peace) among others when I was CSUA president. P.S. Sign your name instead of making thinly veiled, weak anonymous threats. -dans \_ Gee, I wondered why dans knew so much about meth. \_ Gee, I wonder why the preceding passage would do anything to dispell your wonder? Have you read any of the minutes I took for the CSUA? -dans \_ ucsee must be destroyed! \_ Interesting. So what will happen to all us cranky alumni when five or six selfless individuals cannot be scrounged up to cater to our every whim? What will we do without wall, motd, and email spools filled with 99.99% spam?! \_ We could start a fight club. \_ Why would anyone want to endure pain and medical bills? Make it a Counter-Strike fight club. \_ Every anti-social nerd dies. Not every anti-social nerd really lives. \_ Does the CSUA still do a lot of social activities (BBQs, RISK tourneys, volleyball, etc.?) Maybe asking if any CS profs will let you announce that sort of thing after lectures might help. -John \_ CSUA used to be fun in the early 90s. From reading the minutes however, it seems like people there have gotten a lot more serious. They're trying to do mentoring, help sessions, info sessions, and other serious events that many other organizations (like UCSEE) have been doing long before CSUA started doing the same thing just recently (recent as in past 5 years?). I don't know why this is the case. I suspect it is probably the same reason why there are fewer war protests and peace activists on Telegraph and Sproul Hall today than a few decades ago. \_ Speaking of which, I found Rick Starr. He now performs (but mostly just begs for change) in front of the 20th St. exit of 19th St. Oakland BART. His outfits are now significantly on the side of bizarre and tattered, rather than just tattered, and he seems to have lost significant spark. Poor Rick Starr. \_ I was wondering about this--I guess it's partly due to a mixture of people getting into CS for$$$in the late 90s, more competitiveness and lower wages in the industry, and the decline of the labs as people got PCs in dorms and apartments. -John \_ The CSUA has been doing serious events like help sessions since antiquity. Although other organizations offer tutoring, no other organization offers anything like the mentoring program. While the CSUA may have been light on infosessions prior to 1998, its history of corporate outreach goes way back. Soda Mark VI was donated by AMD. If you look \_ Through no fault of the CSUA's. A UCB alum was working in developer relations at AMD and offered MKVI to the CSUA. in the circa 1990 CSUA t-shirt in the office you'll see an EDS logo in the lower-right corner. Do you think it got there because the CSUA membership at the time just really dug EDS? Going all the way back to the birth of the CSUA, Soda Mark I was a donated by Apollo Computer. What other serious' events have other student orgs done since before 2000? The faculty retreat? I know we've been involved with that since 1998, probably earlier, and I largely wrote the joint presentation for two years (2001-2002?) -dans \_ I have a question. What actions currently seem to bring people into the CSUA? I joined the CSUA because there was an arcade game in the lounge and I wanted to fiddle with it. I stuck around because I like crazy people, and paolo and dans were there. I don't think I am normal. None of my mentees joined. In fact, I think the only person I ever successful recruited was ajaffe. So, why do people join? -jrleek \_ Easy. Someone told me you can get a free lifetime Berkeley account, so I went and signed up. I still use it. It's great to have that "berkeley.edu" stamp on the top of your resume, it says a lot and catches attention at a glance. \_ What is the mentee -> active member conversion rate anyway? I joined because paolo showed me the glory that was the CSUA lounge when we were both taking 61B, and I was thus able to escape the pits that are the labs. I also had hopes that I could find and/or recruit others to hack on projects, but, for the most part, this did not pan out. -dans \_ For 3.5 years I knew the CSUA existed, but didn't really know anyone in it, what they did, why they were there, etc. Then Paolo brought Mortal Kombat 2 into the office in an attempt to get his TA to spend more time there, and it worked swimmingly. Once I hung out there a lot and got to know the people, joining seemed like a good idea. You need to get people in there in the first place, in a setting where they can meet people, and that's going to happen with social events like BBQs, volleyball, and game tourneys. Heck, a weekly poker game might draw a crowd. -bz \_ I had just arrived on campus and called a high school friend. He happened to have root and gave me an account over the phone. It's been my primary account for 13 years. I've never taken a single computer science course. I have occasionally been an motd annoyance. I'm not sure which better qualifies for CSUA membership. People are welcome to email me about engineering hydraulics, though. -- ulysses \_ I definitely got involved with the CSUA because the people involved in it seemed a lot more interesting and fun than the drones huddled in the labs. It might have also had something to do with (president at the time) Seano, who I believe just wanted someone around that he could beat at Netrek. --lye \_ On mentoring, how is it currently advertised? Just flyers? Could we get into the normal CS student orientations? When I joined the CSUA was helping out with the transfer student orientations. Could we get into those? (Transfer students generally need all the help they can get.) -jrleek  2006/2/28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42033 Activity:kinda low 2/28 Wow, motd is extra snarky today, isn't it? \_ Just doing my part to make the motd a more interesting place to visit. -dans \_ Dan, do you need a hug? --erikred \_ Everyone loves hugs. They make people feel special. -dans \_ I'd think that's highly dependant on who's doing the hugging. -mice  2006/2/28-3/1 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:42029 Activity:low 2/28 It switched again. Lines from old and new motds: < FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE (MKVII) #0: Fri Dec 17 17:40:05 UTC 2004 --- > FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE (SODA-MINIMAL) #0: Fri Dec 17 17:40:05 UTC 2004 Although uname says we're still on soda-minimal. \_ I think there was a power failure. Blame god. \_ Where can we see a record of the reboots and such? \_ man last \_ Bwahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahaIamnotanassholeahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahaIamsoanassholeahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha I'm sorry. Did you say something? I was just struck by the uncontrollable urge to laugh at absurdity. -dans \_ Wow, you're an ass. \_ A fucking ignorant ass, no less. \_ No, the notion that the csua would keep records, ahem a log, if you will, of system administration tasks above and beyond what the system does automagically really is laughable to anyone who spent enough time around the csua to be even remotely familiar with its history and culture. So is the idea that requests for basic unix information on the motd will be dignified with a helpful response. Though it does make me feel warm and fuzzy that I can make anonymous cowards resort to profanity in their ad hominem attacks. -dans \_ So, given the choice between uselessly mouthing off, providing an answer to a technical question, or staying silent and not adding to the noise, you chose to be a rude and useless jerk. Nice. At least tom actually seems to have (and give) clue. BTW, I don't \_ tom_jerk > tom_clue \_ heh know which motd you've been reading, but I've seen *a lot* of n00b questions get answered here without empty sanctimoniuous snarkiness. --does the ad hominem thing when PP's being a jerk \_ When did we slip into your reality? Why am I typing with tentacles? Where's that japanese school girl? Letting the days go by... \_ Uhm, yeahhh.... Speaking of people with reality issues....in my reality the *Japanese schoolgirls* are the ones with the tentacles. *sheesh* kids these days.... \_ You call it noise. I call it humor. If you read the motd regularly, then you'd know that I provide helpful answers as well as deserved and undeserved snarkiness. In fact, I've got at least two helpful responses in this motd alone (see apache2 and sendmail threads). Frankly, I find your whole anonymous motd behaviorial critic schtick to be pretty pathetic. If it's so important to you, at least have the courage to sign your posts; I do. -dans \_ *shrug* Whatever floats your boat, dude. \_ 'last' is what the op was looking for. I don't think they deserved to be abused for asking a question like they did. they certainly weren't asking for any special logging or effort on anyone's part. --doesn't do the ad hominen thing \_ "last | grep reboot". I apologize in advance if this is actually useful info. \_ or "last reboot" \_ Even better \_ Excellent. Thanks. -op  2006/2/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41825 Activity:kinda low 2/13 Soda undergraduates, I am too old to remember this, is English 1A/1B a requirement for CS in L&S? \_ I thought it was a requirement for every department in L&S. Relatively easy to test out of, though. \_ Yes, as the pp indicated, it is an L&S requirement, not a major/departmental requirement. A 4 on the AP English exam tests you out of 1A, a 5 tests you out of both. -dans \_ OTOH 1B was not required for EECS. \_ There is the 2 semester R&C requirement but you don't have to take it from the English department. \_ and frankly, I am not sure English 1A/1B helped.... as my messages on motd clearly illustrated.  2006/2/8-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:41765 Activity:moderate 2/8 linxu, what is it you guys want from us alumni? Many of us are old, disillusioned, lonely, pathetic, and pissed off engineers. Many of us are single, still virgin, and almost 40 years of age! I'm not so sure that hooking up old and pissed off alumni with you happy and optimistic youngin' is actually a good thing for you guys. Seriously, don't do engineering and GET A LIFE outside of Soda! Screw coding, debugging, and sysadm. It's all meaningless and dry, and will get outsourced to India and China anyways. How about ditching your new technical mentoring program and instead concentrate on things that'll make your life to be more fulfilling when you're older. For example get someone from Cal MBA to do tech entrepreneurial talk, or get hooked up with the busadm people, like doing a CSUA+MBA+busadm event. Seriously, there are so many fine opportunities and fine women outside of Soda. You deserve to have a better life than many of us uninformed alumni when we were young and stupid and didn't know what we were doing. -disillusioned virgin, should have done something else \_ I think its much more for those alumni who would be interested in meeting the current politburo and office hosers. I know a few graduated alumns who I think would come and would be nice to see again. This is not necessarily a networking to get current students jobs or ellicit donations, but just to involve the alumni with the club more. When I'm an alum I'd like to go to something occasion- ally to see how the club is currently functioning. This is very much geared to friendly alumns, so if you are just angry and bitter (and don't want to at least act friendly) you probably want to stay home. -mrauser \_ maybe you should move to an asian country where your poor english skills will be less of a barrier to finding eligible women. \_ speak for yourself. I could have learned a lot from alumni when I was in school if I hadn't been too busy playing on MUDs chasing after women--things I had to learn myself after I graduated and had to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. Good idea on the MBA entrepreneurial talk, though. That could be pretty useful. \_ But would you have really listened to the bitter old men or dismiss them as, well, old and bitter virgins? \_ Well, I've found the "bitter old virgin" stereotype to be mostly untrue -- except in a few cases where it's more a problem of attitude than geek culture. And yes, I'd have listened to Soda's elder statesmen for general advice about "what happens next", and I'd have looked out for the opportunity to network with people in industry. Maybe you should get some counseling or something, man, since you seem really unhappy and have a pretty self-defeating attitude... unless you're happy being a old bitter virgin. unless you're happy being an old bitter virgin. \_ Nah, I was an arrogant kid in college and didn't listen to any "elder statesmen" who might have showed up (and few did). Lots of others were the same. It makes me wonder if having an alumni meeting is worth it. \_ The purpose of an alumni meeting is for alumni to meet college girls. Maybe you're too old already though. \_ Hey nineteen, that's Aretha Franklin. She don't remember the Queen of Soul. \_ Assuming you're the op, so you were an arrogant in college and now you're a bitter old virgin. Perhaps it's time for a change in strategy? In the mean time, please don't be a bitter dour naysayer of good ideas just because you wouldn't have benefited from them back when you were a young ass. -dans \_ Sorry, !op. The op is obviously trolling. I am expressing the fact that in college, the last thing I wanted to hear is old farts talking about their glorious college days. If it's going talking about the stuff they are doing now, that's better. \_ Then why didn't you say that an alumni meeting where they talk about what they are doing now >> alumni reminiscing about college instead of merely expressing vague, bitter, dour, naysayer misgivings? Seriously though, thanks for the clarification, I think it's important. -dans \_ No agenda mentioned. Assumed it was going bitter, old virgins showing complaining about the motd and their ideas of improving {unix, nethack,BSG} all of which include more full frontal MOTAS nudity. to whatever "elder statesmen" who might have showed up (and none did). Lots of others were the same. It makes me wonder if having an alumni meeting worth it. \_ That's funny. All the CSUA allumni I \_ That's funny. All the CSUA alumni I know personally are a lot of fun, including the above dans. I wanted to go just because it would be fun.-jrleek \_ I like feeding the myth. And I troll too. \_ Speak for yourself. I'm a happy, married, going-on-30-year-old engineer. I've liked every job I've had and can't imagine doing anything else. I got my first few jobs because of all of the time I spent fiddling on the computer instead of { studying, having a life, going outside, etc } while in school. \_ Speak for yourself, I'm a happy mid-twentiesomthing alum. I'm totally into the latest of a string of hot girlfriends that began \_ pixP \_ #t Stop being anal about this, P-guy. ___P _/ was first popularized with foodP, which if people had really only responded with #t and nothing else wouldn't have been a very useful thing. It just means ____? these days, deal with it. \_ I date hot girls because I like them, not so I can parade them around like some sort of trophy for you to ogle. -pp \_ ___P and #t are also mismatched conventions. \_ ___P ==> ___predicate...ie, boolean. You know...#t/#f. \_ I'm referring to mixing LISP vs. Scheme conventions. \_ Okay, this is where we tell the joke about there being 10 kinds of people in the world, those who can count in binary and those who can't, thereby officially consigning this argument to the nerd humor graveyard after killing it, digging it up, and killing the zombie corpse again. -dans \_ Speaking of zombies, I thought Cemetary Man kind of rocked. That was a great film. I've never been as impressed with the Romero Quartet, though. *shrug* \_ I'll have to check that out. Thanks. -dans \_ analP \_ correctP back in my undergrad days. As an undergrad I spent lots of time geeking out, learned a lot, but still made time for a social life (not necessarily out of Soda, but a social life nonetheless). The time spent geeking out definitely led to the jobs I've held. I left my most recent gig in November, took a few months off, and am excited about the prospects for what's next. \_ what about happy old virgins? \_ Ah reminds me of the good old days where CS8 (Pascal) was a Business Admin requirement (logic, you know) and, as a reader or lab aide, the access to cute women was easy... \_ To the lonely 40 year-old virgin sodan, if you are truly depressed, and want to do something about your life before it is too late (or before your sperm all dries up), move out of Silicon Valley, seriously! If I am in your situation, I would seriously consider working in another country (especially Asian country such as China) for a few years instead of rotting in the Silicon Valley waiting for something to happen. You don't have to work I the tech field, teach English, or be a fool and appear in their TV shows! Apply for graduate school there. If you work there for a few years you'll get to know the girl better so you have more to base your decision on. It's an equal playing field. It'll be the opposite of Silicon Valley for you. You get to say "sorry, I am flattered, but I am not interested!". Or you can continue to bitch and moan about being a virgin on soda. \_ That's only if you want to date Asian women, NTTAWWT. I guess it might work also in Latin America, in which case you are an f-ing genius.  2006/2/7-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:41755 Activity:moderate 2/7 Dear Alumni, the current politburo is thinking about having an alumni event. We were thinking of having an event here in Berkeley in a couple of months (perhaps near the end of the semester). Here are some options we would like you guys to vote on: * Resturant or Soda-BBQ * Weekend Evening or Weekday Evening? * How far in advance? Thanks all -lin / CSUA Alumni relations \_ ack, this is too much pressure! What is it you want from us alumni? Money? Attention? Job? Companion? Love? Well we can't offer the last one but I can give you an advice. If you don't have a mate and graduating soon, GET ONE. Real life in Silicon Valley is lonely and depressing and unfulfilling. You spend weekdays and weeknights with other lonely geeks like yourself, debugging someone else's code 24x7. I guess this is alright if you're gay. But if you're not, understand that most of the women in Silicon Valley are married, and those that aren't are either old, ugly, or both, and still in high demand. Get mate while you're still in college or forever be doomed to bitching on motd as your only source of sexual relief -pathetic alum, really miss college \_ Actually I really miss multi-day hack sessions, sexual \_ Actually I really miss multiple day hack sessions, sexual frustration, and lonely geekdom. \_ I agree, if I hadn't gotten married right out of college, I don't know how I would've met anyone around here. -happy mar. \_ I met a sexy young caucasian girl who works for a pharmie as a s/w engineer who is single. So it can happen. \_ Are you serious? It is my impression that most of the sodans have Asian fetish. You are not a real Sodan. \_ Err, most != all \_ I won't speak for all alums, but I imagine weeknights are bad for everyone what with work/wife/kids. They are probably also bad for students what with school and/or work. Make it a Friday or Saturday. \_ Soda-BBQ seems much better in terms of miixing and such. \_ Soda-BBQ works better for me. Make is on the weekend before a Cal game and I will show up for sure! -ausman \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend for me. --dbushong \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend works for me. -dans \_ P.S. Two weeks lead time would be great. My February is already completely booked. \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend is the most likely for me. It would be fun to meet some of the people that I've been ridiculing on MOTD for years so I can ridicule them in person. You going to be there John?...I could sure use a good yodel to perk me up. -mice \_ Olay deedle fucking dee. -John \_ Soda-BBQ + weekend for me, too. You know, back in my day, we didn't have BBQ's. Or sodas. Or weekends. We had treebark. And we liked it. We loved it. -geordan \_ *pshaw* In my day, we didn't even have trees. We just had roots. When we got hungry we had to gnaw on the bare, uncooked roots in the sun (since we didn't have trees for shade). Kids these days.... -mice \_ I needed a new heel for my shoe, so I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. 'Give me five bees for a quarter,' you'd say. Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...  2006/2/7-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41752 Activity:nil 2/7 amckee's politburo made a sharp turn to the right when they authorized the electronic surveillance of motd post. Read the minutes and grep for jrleek. God Bless. \_ no loggers going. flame down. -mrauser \_ Alright then, how do you explain tom identifying people correctly? And why did you vote for Bush in 2000 and 2004? \_ I believe mrauser is replying in the context of official kernel-integrated logging, not logging by users privately. \_ didn't they eventually decide to turn off all logging? \_ We now only log suspected loggers, unless the post is really juicy. \_ Not true. The religious right took over politburo and now it thinks and acts just like the Bush administration. The bottom line, if you are a good person you have nothing to hide. \_ We now only log suspected terrorists, unless the post is really juicy. \_ huh?  2006/2/6-7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41724 Activity:nil 2/6 Anyone else receiving email messages that have headers but no content? I confirmed with the sender that there was in fact content in what was sent. Perhaps the recent downtime plus massive mail delivery to catch up is to blame, but I've never observed this particular symptom. -srgordon \_ I received a couple of emails like this too. - ciyer \_ I received at least 1 email like this. Also, I did not receive one particular email that was sent either Sunday or Monday afternoon (it's already Tuesday morning as I write this). \_ Me three. --PeterM \_ It has been asked multiple times on MOTD, and I don't recall ever seeing a technical answer. So what is causing the recent soda instability? \_ amckee fostered a culture where socializing and mentoring freshman/sophomore candidates for the CS major were prioritized over technical clue, in particular system administration. At \_ Stop criticizing amckee. You're either with amckee, or against amckee. Even if you don't criticize him he may launch an preemptive attack in Operation Squish Dissent until Mission Accomplished. How? His conservative buddies in politburo spies by reading secret root motd log and email without warrants. Amckee is right. He is always right and resolute. So bring it on, dans. God Bless. \_ Kindly explain how a factual recount of recent history may be considered criticism.' Anyway, it be broughten. -dans \_ I think you missed the joke. --someone else \_ Joking at the expense of amckee is a sorryable offense. the same time he alienated many alumni including some root staff. Thus, present day ops staff (i.e. VP) get less insight and assistance than they did in the past. Present day ops staff may or may not have clue, I don't know, I've never met them. That said, the motd has never been an official politburo/root outlet. Consider mailing politburo, root, or, bettery yet, show up to a politburo meeting. -dans  2006/1/27-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41575 Activity:nil 1/27 Hi mehlhaff, can you restart your motd,v archiving please? Thanks! \_ mehlhaff, please rtfm (man crontab) and setup a cron to make your archiver more reliable. Having to start it manually is pretty silly IMHO. \_ Someone obviously doesn't know mehlhaff.  2006/1/12-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41363 Activity:kinda low 1/12 Help. I'm addicted to the motd. I end up reading the entire motd every 30 min just to check for updates. It is really interfering with my work. What can I do to get rid of this horrible addiction? \_ take up masturbation \_ That might be difficult if he works in an office.... \_ Go to the men's room. \_ Or, better, the women's \_ Always assuming the sex starved person is male gets lame after awhile.Not to mention sexist gets lame after awhile. Not to mention sexist \_ Sex starved people on the motd are generally male. so people are going to assume they are unless there is reason to believe otherwise. Put your big girl panties on, and deal with it (i'm manking no assumption of gender here). \_ That's because women can get laid anytime they want to. \_ kais motd intellidiff makes update-checking much faster \_ how do I use it? \_ http://csua.com/24/?incr=1 hit reload, new stuff appears in green \_ I hate you. -op \_ Are you hanging on my every word? \_ run /csua/bin/motdbrowser \_ Read new entries with diff, or motdwatch or something.  2005/12/30-2006/1/4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:41176 Activity:nil 12/30 Anyone have any idea why soda has been going down more frequently lately? Haven't seen any info in the official motd, it's been a couple of times in the last week, iirc. (Not meant to be a criticism, just wondering what the problem is - thanks to whoever rebooted!). \_ obItsTakingLessonsFromYermom couple of times in the last week, iirc. (Not meant to be a criticism, just wondering what the problem is - thanks to whoever rebooted!). \_ it's on windowz now? \_ hint: uname -a \_ Seriously, where are all the humourless n00bs coming from these days? \_ our humor has been outsourced i guess.. \_ ...to people that aren't funny... \_ So really, what's going on with soda?  2005/12/13-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40999 Activity:nil 12/13 The motd archiver is looking for a more permanent, non-UCLA home. I as the author will give out the complete DB and the source code of KAIS MOTD to whoever wants to continue hosting the archives, preferably outside of the .edu domain for the purpose of fault tolerance and many other reasons. I don't mind if the new owner renames it or do whatever with it as long as the archives are provided to the public on a continuing basis as has been done in the past few years. If you have the hardware to share (small bandwidth and only 300M disk), I will spend time to set it up for you. If no one wants to host it, the archiver will be gone for good some time next year. Thanks. -kchang \_ Would this be a good thing for http://csua.org? \_ the person who owns http://csua.org does not want to host it, for good reasons (liability, maintenance, etc). In short I actually think the death of the archiver may actually be good. It'll allow a few selected motd addicts to move on with their lives. As for me, I don't mind having one less thing to maintain for the pleasure of other people. -kchang \_ http://csua.net, then \_ It's pointing back to the original .edu ip. \_ is soda out of question?  2005/12/6-7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40875 Activity:high 12/6 Sigh, finding my current kchang alias. -emarkp So now I'm "reagan". Just so you know kchang, I've sent an email to root asking for your access to motd to be terminated. I have no idea if it will happen or not, but I thought you'd like to know. -emarkp \_ Jesus christ you really are pathetic aren't you? if it will happen or not, but I thought you'd like to know. -emarkp \_ Ooh. Now I'm hirohito! You're so clever! -emarkp \_ it's random. it's clear that someone has no sense of humor. \_ Beats me. I'm emarkp on mine. \_ I realized after refreshing it a few times that my alias is rotating through several choices. It's not totally random AFAICT though, because none of the aliases I'm getting are neutral. Apparently kchang's maturity level is at about 5 years old. -emarkp \_ likewise, your intelligence is at about 5 years old. It took you how long to figure out that you're not being singled out? \_ It's not as deterministic as that. I get mostly super villain names, but so do other posters who posted when I wasn't online. So it's not a strict mapping. Different users can share the same kchang identity. \_ I suspect there are different classifications. If you've criticized kchang in the past, you only get names that are negative in his hierarchy. My alias of "reagan" isn't evil to me, but I'll bet it is to kchang. -emarkp \_ And I suspect you are being paranoid. I am biased though, since I am enjoying all the bad guy names he's finding. He hasn't even ventured into the Reagan- or Nixon-era names, yet, but admPoindexter may be coming soon. Or perhaps he'll stick to the more simplified comic book villains and slurs. -- megatron \_ It took about 2 minutes to write a script to log the names I'm given. Here are the top 4: 109 reagan 17 redneck 13 miniMe 11 hannibalLector Now I suppose kchang might simply be incompetent and his use of a random number generator is flawed, but the above doesn't look random to me. -emarkp \_ You're being a fucking idiot. The vast majority of names are some type of villain. Maybe you'd rather be Stalin? or theWickedOne? How exactly are these names non-random? What could you possibly have in common with mini-me? The world does not revolve around you. \_ I think he wants "theHumorlessOne" \_ Hi kchang! It looks like you've changed your script since I posted this. Now suddenly (within the last few minutes) I've been assigned many more names. Did you fix your random number usage? Or did you move me off your "bad" list? -emarkp \_ you are such a paranoid. and you've been trolled. congrats. \_ I'm not kchang. For fucks sake, man, THINK. \_ Cool. Would you mind posting the script so we can all check it out? -- theTempter (as of a minute ago) \_ Where is this kchang namecalling down? Is this a new KAIS MOTD site? \_ http://csua.com/24/?incr=1 \_ Mehlhaff has been doing it for years with cvs. It was still there last time I checked. \_ I use RCS. -ERic \_ FWIW, I like it. I think it's hilarious. Also, I'm glad the archive and search functions are back. \_ Me too! Lighten up, dude. The mapping of name to kchang name seems pretty random to me. I doubt there is a line: if (login == emarkp) name = something_negative; I bet it's just the luck of the draw. - magneto \_ It still seems random to me. Are you at all sure it can tell who is posting what? I'm still not even sure what my own alias is. I assume we all have one or they're assigned randomly. \_ I'm getting positive characters, like megatron -- w00t! \_ Megatron is the leader of the Decepticons in the cartoon. Decepticon is um, evil. Megatron combines brute strength, military cunning, ruthlessness and terror. Aches to return to Cybertron to conquest after destroying all Autobots on earth. Plans to possess all Earth resources. Incredibly powerful and intelligent. Fires nuclear- charged fusion cannon. Can link up interdimensionally to a black hole and draw antimatter from it for use as a weapon. No known weakness. \_ He was cool though! Turned into a gun and everything \_ He got pwned by Optimus Prime. Repeatedly. Even after he became Galvatron. -mice \_ Acutally if you watch the the first movie very closely although Optimus Prime is still "standing" after the fight, he is the first one to die. Megatron is still in good enough shape to talk back to Unicron and doesn't ever "die" like Optimus Prime. So if anyone got pwnd, it was Prime. [ Yes, Galvatron was beaten by Rodimus Prime, but that was only b/c Unicorn weakened Megatron to the point where he could be beaten by the autobots; Rodimus couldn't hope to beat Megatron ] - Megatr0n #1 fan \_ Oh puhLEEEAZE -- the only reason Optimus Prime didn't waste megatron was because of that useless interfering twit Hot Rod. Dude, megatron got tossed out on his ear by freakin' Starscream. Starscream!, man -- how wussy is *that*? At least Optimus got resurrected as himself, rather than absorbed like megatron. -mice \_ Optimus got resurrected? Did we watch different movies? Optimus dies and turns gray in the one I watched and Hot Rod is given the crystal of power (or whatever). Cf. Megatron who doesn't die, but is repaired by Unicron. The part where Megatron is tossed out by Starscream is the sadest part of the movie, but he makes up for any whimpyness in the very next scene w/ Unicron. Cf also, Megatron's battle cry "Dece- pticons Attack!" to "Autobots Rollout!" No comparison. Its like "Warp Speed Mr. Scott!" and "Beam me up Scotty" vs. "Engage" and "Energize." :-) \_ Optimus eventually got resurrected (twice!) in the TV show. \_ Optimus eventually got resurrected (twice!) in the TV show. \_ The original tv show? Or one of the more recent updates? I don't remember Optimus dying until the movie (but then again the last time I watched transformers was more than 15+ yrs ago). \_ Yes, the old TV show, a little while after the movie came out. Not the new CG/anime stuff. \_ I'm getting Dr. Evil or Cobra Cmdr, but I'd prefer Dr. Claw! All in all the names are cool. \_ Not the kwah... the kwah! \_ How long do you think it will take kchang to add 'emarkp' to the list of supervillains? Will emarkp have a fit when he randomly gets labeled with the horrible moniker emarkp? Why do you read the motd so much if it offends you? Weren't you the guy filtering out curse words from the motd? \_ Hi anonymous troll! -emarkp \_ It's random for me ... I went from megatron to LeftWingNut to bush to MaoZedong. I think kchang is just trying to identify the same posters without identifying the identity of the posters, pretty cool. Is his degree going to be in social studies of geek to MaoZedong. Is his degree going to be in social studies of geek clics? \_ It now appears to be random for me as well. The distribution was very much /not/ uniform before, now it appears to be. -emarkp \_ Uhm, welcome to the nature of randomness. \_ 7 is the most random number! \_ Is there a way to add nicknames? \_ How about "moroni" \_ Before some politburo individual reads this and overreacts, there is nothing inherently wrong with kchang archiving the motd, attempting to guess posters' identities, and posting insulting names in their places (if he were doing so, which is not the case). If you don't like kchang's sense of humor, don't bother going to his website. This is not high school; hell, this is not even college. This is a globally editable message board which is sometimes informative, but often irrelevant, like most of the Internet. Get over it. --erikred \_ politburo should squish darthVader and Megatron the same way amckee squished brett.  2005/12/4-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40838 Activity:moderate 12/3 Read the motd. Now. - jvarga \_ jvarga is my hero! (You were on this till 2:30am?) -jrleek \_ No, I was on this til 4:00am and then forced myself to sleep because I get up for church at 7:30am. But at least no one can tell me I am dragging my feet on new-soda anymore. - jvarga \_ Can you add the new key info to: http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/computing/hardware Thanks for all your hardwork. \_ Soon. I am dead tired right now and just doing stupid random stuff to make myself feel better. - jvarga \_ thanks for all the time you've put into this -sax \_ Yeah, jvarga, you and the rest of root staff that have been working on this rock harder. - ajani \_ I remember in the good old days when Soda machine has to get to the point of become unbearably slow before the hardware upgrade. Good job, guys. out of curiousity, what went wrong with the old Soda again \_ Run soda inside a VM, and then VMOtion it to the other machine with 0 downtime!! ;)  2005/12/4-2006/4/7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40836 Activity:nil 12/4 Welcome to Soda Mark VII! Host keys have changed, the system is faster, so you can harass the motd faster than ever before. There is probably a LOT of stuff not installed. Please nicely email root if something does not work and we will get to it asap. Send cake. Now. I hate sendmail. Sorry, but I think I bounced every email sent to @CSUA between 9pm and 2:30am. - jvarga  2005/11/28-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40743 Activity:nil 11/27 Soda rebooted, so I decided to edit the motd when noone's loggers were turned on. -mrauser \_ What went wrong with soda?  2005/11/21-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40675 Activity:kinda low 11/21 Okay, does anyone have a problem with deleting old motd entries? I delete everything older than yesterday and someone keeps putting it back. \_ Older than yesterday? ADD a bit? \_ Apparently yes, if someone keeps restoring. \_ Two days old and helpful/interesting sounds right. \_ The general rule I use is 2 days unless a particular thread older than 2 days is still active OR the motd is way too long to retain 2 days worth of stuff. \_ Yeah I've had people pull that on me. Keeping a long-ass motd with stale old shit sucks. Fuck whoever does that.  2005/11/17-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40636 Activity:nil 11/17 Anyone noticed ilyas' absense on motd? Has he finally quit being a government leech and become a useful member of society? \_ no, he's still in grad sk00l far as i know, but yeah he quit motd \_ You could simulate most of an ilyas by randomly nuking the motd!  2005/11/17-19 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40635 Activity:nil 11/17 I'm 41, so what am I allowed to complain about on motd ? I think if anything, you becoming more accepting of things the older you get. \_ If you're replying to the "at least wait till you're 40" post below, I was not meaning to imply that being over 40 makes it cool to bitch about young people--just that bitching about young people when you're barely over 30 demonstrates spectacular levels of assheadedness. There have always been good people who work hard and don't complain, and there have always been stupid whiners. \_ I can agree with that. I went back to college for awhile and found it odd to be in classes with people who were not even born when you started college. \_ Hot and easy college babes are worth it, though. \_ and if you can't get them, there is always the moms. \_ standard grumpy-old-man stuff about how things are easier these days and th whiners should shut up, because you had to hike to school 5 miles uphill each way, in the snow. \_ You can always bitch about punctuation and formatting. What year were you? \_ Let me put it to you this way, my first college level CS course (in pascal) was in 1983 and was done on punch cards. ( .. which leads to many .. in my day lines ... ) \_ I am curious because I thought there wasn't anyone from an earlier class than me ('89) on motd. In fact, when I graduated, I was the first CSUA excom member to do so in 2 years. \_ I did not actually graduate from Cal; so you probably don't know me. \_ Well, it's either that or you're okamoto. \_ I actually know Jeff; but its been a few years (over ten now) since I did anime stuff \_ Indeed, who are you, ancient master? -jrleek \_ Punch cards? Didn't Apple ][ support Pascal? \_ These were batch jobs run on the campus mainframe. At that time; only CS majors got the priviledge of using green screens since they were in short supply. This was not at Cal; btw. \_ Yes, Apple ][ did support Pascal. But in 1983 Apples ][e cost more than a semester at Cal. \_ You have an odd sense of punctuation; btw. \_ When I first learned C after using Pascal for a year in school, I though C was cool. Now after using C for 15 years, I miss Pascal. \_ The sad thing is you're only 13 years ahead of me and time has been flowing exponentially faster year after year. Ok maybe logarithmically. or something. \_ Its like Indy used to say: "Its not the years; its the mileage"  2005/11/14-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40588 Activity:kinda low 11/14 Time for silly motd confessional: I have been flirting with Kalamata olives. First, I hated olives. Later I would enjoy a very small bit of tapenade on toast. Then I decided I would slowly nibble Kalamata olives, but only 1 or 2 in a session. Now I devour them. OK, 'night. \_ Same thing happened to me, but without the tapenade. It's not hard to hate "California" olives (the black ones you get on pizzas and everywhere). They're horrid. \_ Where can I get some? Are they cheap? I've always hated olives, I'm interested in the idea that some don't taste like salted crap. \_ Kalamata are ripe olives cured in red wine vinegar. The ones with the pits in them have better texture. I've had nice ones from the olive bins at Cheeseboard and Berkeley bowl. \_ I like the pitted Kalamatas in olive oil in a bottle they have at Trader Joe's. They're pretty cheap (~$3, IIRC). The ones in water are slightly more expensive and slightly "nicer" (fewer ripped ones, etc), but the olive oil ones have a better mouth feel. Mmm. Fat. --dbushong \_ Kalamatas are often scored to allow the marinade to penetrate better.
 2005/11/8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40492 Activity:high 11/8 Would someone give me a pointer on what was the big controversy surrounding KAIS MOTD, the whole story, and in particular, why the name attribute logging is a such big deal? ever since KAIS MOTD being terminated, people start to censoring MOTD again. and it is very annoying. \_ So, someone said something threatening toward amckee, like instituting a blacklist saying "do not hire amckee". amckee used KAIS MOTD identification to turn off someone's account, someone who turned out to be innocent because KAIS MOTD's identification was in error. The Politburo sent mail to kchang asking him to turn it off, with wording that some inferred to mean "turn off the ident feature or else." kchang just took the whole thing down. Clear enough? --PeterM \_ Politburo sent kchang a couple e-mails asking him to turn off the ID feature, or at least put a big disclaimer about its (in)accuracy. kchang did not respond to Politburo e-mail and was threatened by a Politburo member that he may be sorried if he didn't write back. kchang decided to turn off the archiver entirely.
 2005/11/8-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40491 Activity:high 11/8 tom holub \_ ilya shpitser \_ david bushong \_ charlie root \_ geordan rosario \_ Hi! -geordan \_ peter mardahl \_ (what does this list of names represent?) \_ People who were at yermom's last night. -John \_ Evidence that the price of green in Berkeley is Way Too High. \_ So, someone said something threatening toward amckee, like instituting a blacklist saying "do not hire amckee". amckee used KAIS MOTD identification to turn off someone's account, someone who turned out to be innocent because KAIS MOTD's identification was in error. The Politburo sent mail to kchang asking him to turn it off, with wording that some inferred to mean "turn off the ident feature or else." kchang just took the whole thing down. Clear enough? --PeterM \_ Thanks, peterM in my innocent eye, kchang has nothing to do with this at all. he has repeatly, and clearly labled that his "name attribute" logging feature is not accurate. I don't think it's kchang's problem when someone falsely put faith on that feature, no? kngharv \_ Yes, I understood clearly that kchang's naming feature was not accurate. In fact, his feature misattributed to me things I didn't say (other things it got right). Nevertheless, I liked the feature: it's fine if you understand the quality and uncertainty of the data. --PeterM \_ It's a GOOD thing that the archiver is down. Some of the comments amckee made could be really damaging to him in the future. Ditto with tjb and ilyas. \_ my motd archiver is still going strong. -ERicM \_ it was not a threat, it was an retaliation. I personally made sure that amckee will never get hired by Google, Intel, IBM, and countless other companies. I love networking. \_ This seems inappropriate to me. If you think the guy is so vile that he needs to blacklisted, don't you think that he'd do a good job shooting himself down in interviews? If you think you need to do MORE then it's clearly personal and not professional. Alot can be said of amckee, but I don't think this sort of retaliation based on motd content is reasonable. \_ It's often difficult diagnosing personality disorders in an interview. \_ Yeah, the evidence is that psychopath blacklister guy got hired. \_ Honestly, I wouldn't hire either of them, but knowing what I do, if I had to choose I think I'd hire amckee over the blacklister guy, but because at least amckee is honest, and blacklister guy is basically a cowardly grudge-holding bastard. \_ I have personally contacted God, and I've made sure no one from Earth is going to Heaven. \_ you also seem to love hyperbole. \_ Just curious--how could you _make sure_ that these companies won't hire someone? Won't that imply these companies maintain a blacklist themselves? \_ I hope I never come across you in my professional life. Blacklisting is vile. --PeterM \_ Ditto. To pp, go fuck yourself. -John \_ not exactly smart signing your name. \_ What, so I'm supposed to cower in fear of the blacklister? What is he going to do, put me on a blacklist for being anti-blacklists? Or is he going to invent some slander/libel? --PM \_ It's not only "motd content", but the personal threats made to some people, and the lack of any apologies. Look at the psb web site for the hysterical rantings -- "I will file a restraining order" "Your friends will not be able to help you" "The CSUA is a Stalinist Empire and I am Uncle Joe" "I am keeping a log of your actions" "psb you have been a hoser by spamming the csua@@csua mailing list" "the full scrutiny of contract law" "alumni on our servers is clearly in violation of campus policies" "I am the resident asshole". I doubt the earlier poster has the power to have amckee banned at several large companies, but one can point to the very words written by amckee. \_ So you've appointed yourself judge, jury, and \_ So he's appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner, and decided that establishing a precedent for intimidation and execution of threats on the motd was a more rational and responsible behavior? How is that supposed to be good for the motd community as a whole? Honestly, I think you're the one that should be sorried here since you not only made threats, but seem to have actually carried through on them. Honestly, I think he's the one that should be sorried here since he not only made threats, but seems to have actually carried through on them. Uh oh...have I just made myself a blacklist candidate, now too? \_ Politburo sent kchang a couple e-mails asking him to turn off the ID feature, or at least put a big disclaimer about its (in)accuracy. kchang did not respond to Politburo e-mail and was threatened by a Politburo member that he may be sorried if he didn't write back. kchang decided to turn off the archiver entirely. \_ This is in the context of a CSUA president who threatened to turn off the accounts for at least two more people, never apologized to them, and did a lot of semi-unstable ranting documented at http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA and the request-like rather than threat-like nature of the mails was not communicated to kchang. And some of the communication was from non-politiburo persons. \- what sort of moron would try to outthink psb? ok tnx. --#1 fan \_ What sort of moron would try to outthink psb? --#1 fan \- psb for president-4-life -- #2 fan \_ !psb -John \_ I think !psb may be a popular candidate at the next politburo elections. -gm
 2005/11/7-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40477 Activity:low 11/07 Has the KAIS MOTD issue been resolved? Can Kevin turn the 24 hr diff and searching again? \_ Kevin can do whatever he likes. We asked him (not demanded) that he turn off the name attribute logging feature because we thought it would make a more anonymous better environment. We didn't mean to imply that if he didn't turn it off we would sorry him (as it is easy for anyone to log motd edits and hard to stop or track those who do). -mrauser \_ He would not (necessarily) be sorried for leaving the logging feature active (unless it became a big problem later in which he might be officially given an ultimatum), but he was threatened with sorrying for not responding to the Politburo e-mails. \_ It is my wish to see CSUA become a better place than before. I am convinced that the motd experiments I ran in the past year made CSUA much worse, and I apologize to countless number of people who were directly or indirectly inconvenienced by the experiments. I'm very sorry. I have unplugged my work indefinitely and I hope by doing so CSUA will be nice again. Finally I'd like to point out that mehlhaff has done a great job archiving the motd on a consistent basis and I highly recommend his work. Mehlhaff's original archiver was an inspiration to me, and will no doubt continue to inspire many programmers to come. Thanks. -kchang \_ Translation: "You've done a good job pissing me off. I have no intention of providing a service for you ungrateful sodans and incompetent politburo members alike. I'm leaving, y'all go fuck yourselves." \_ I found the kais motd extremely useful ... and searching through it quite helpful. who thinks so strongly otherwise? \_ I agree that your efforts as a whole made it significantly worse. However, removing the "guess the poster" function would make things better IMO. -emarkp \_ I sometimes used the search/archive features. I think it was useful and would lobby to have it turned back on without the aforementioned "guess the poster" function. \_ Thirded. \_ I will add on a small bribe. \_ Yeah, ok, so would I. So what's yer price, kchang? \_ The price is a regime change in politburo, a regime that is now ruling soda with an iron fist \_ You would need some sort of fake WMD evidence before you can embark on a regime change. \_ [insert ObPantsMissle joke here] \_ [insert ObFakedIntel joke here] \_ me too -ausman \_ The ID feature created a great deal if not all of the controversy. I think it was a very helpful service otherwise.
 2005/10/26-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40277 Activity:moderate 76%like:40271 10/25 To Politburo: The next time you decide to limit or modify a feature available to many CSUA users, can you please please please consult motd or a well-populated mailing list first, you know, just to get the popular opinion? Thanks. -soda user \_ Politburo voted to *ask* kchang to turn off the attribution in KAIS MOTD, and specifically said that they weren't going to sorry him or anything if he refused. Read Brett's message carefully: the first paragraph is from politburo, the second is the opinion of one random person on root, and the third is from Brett personally. \_ Nice revisionist history. Politburo and root staff as bodies asked kchang to turn off attribution. One staff member (turns out to be Jon) said adding a disclaimer would be sufficient. (BTW, in my universe, the word of one root staff member is worth much less the the combined opinion of the politburo and the root staff. Perhaps it is different in your universe.) There was a threat of account shut down if kchang does not reply (not clear who the source of the threat is). And then there was a threat from Brett that kchang may violate the not-a-hoser rule. It is only in a *later* email that the hoser threat was removed in a "clarification". \_ even if I was the "*one*" root person who said this, I am of the general impression that others on root felt that it was a reasonable approach to take. --Jon \_ Well, you and others on root may have felt that. However, I don't know that from reading the email kchang posted. In that email, it seems quite clear that it was the request of both the politburo and the root staff (as a body) that the attribution function be turned off. Does kchang have a good enough pulse on the mood of root staff to be able to infer that that position is not final, to be able to infer that that request is not final, despite the letter of the email? Where is Carmac when you need him? \_ It sounds like we agree. Politburo voted to make a non- threatening request. Brett sent out a threatening request, misleadingly presenting jon's and his own opinions (which I agree are worth a lot less than a politburo decision) as official. Politburo is to blame for lots of things, but I don't think this is one of them. -pp \_ no name, no weight. Your post will be ignored. \_ Would you plese show me where in http://csua.com says that the politburo "specifically said that they weren't going to sorry him or anything if he refused" per your original claim? \_ BTW, the time line isn't clear. It is clear that Brett threatened kchang with hoserfication. It is also clear that the hoserfication threat was later removed in a clarification. When did the politburo had the finding that kchang was not being a hoser? Was it before Brett's threat, and therefore Brett had no grounds for his threat? Was it after the threat, so Brett thought he could legitimately threaten? Is misrepresenting the opinion of the politburo in an official communication a sorryable offense? \_ As amckee explained it, "[the CSUA] is not a democracy. We're [the Politburo] democratically elected, but once in office we have near complete authority to implement the policies we see fit. Think communist russia, not democratic greece." They are under no obligation to consider alternative points of view, and apparently they have no inclination to do so in any case. \- ObStarttheOutOfContextTimer \_ Time for another soda alias, keystone-kop@soda: amckee \_ Wouldn't that be kritical-keystone-kasset? \_ I nominate IWillBlackListYou for greatest troll of all time. \_ I dunno, it's got pretty stiff competition: GUN DUEL anyone? \_ Yeah--that one worked perfectly. -John \_ That was brilliant. Did the perpetrator (who should be proud of their handiwork, I think) ever come forward? -- ulysses \_ It was Mark Felt. -John \_ It was I. \_ So besides being ticked off by the tone of the email, what is kchang's reason for not putting up the disclaimer and saving all of us eyestrain from reading an evergrowing motd? \_ kchang is under no obligation to provide the MOTD threading service. He did it as a favor, and I assume he no longer feels a desire to do favors for the current regime. \_ We need a regime change. The current administration is as compentent and likeable as the Bush administration. Oh and if you ever find out who I am, please don't squish me. -scared poster \_ The current regime has not invaded any other campus groups unilaterally for no reason afaik. \_ I predict that if they did that, alumni support would increase, not decrease. \_ Maybe politburo should start drafting these things as a committe instead of delegating people to do it. You guys keep putting your collective foot in your mouth. -jrleek \_ Come back to the five and dime, Kevin Chang, Kevin Chang....
 2005/10/26-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40276 Activity:low 10/26 emarkp, for a Mormon, you have a serious attitude problem. ilyas and aaron stopped posting and have moved on with their lives. There is life outside motd, like bible study or something much more constructive. Get a fucking life you fucking self righteous nut. This is the last time I'm posting on motd. \_ Good riddance. -emarkp \_ Good riddance. I think anonymous trolls like you who call out people by name are the scourge of motd. I'd be happy to discuss what you think my "attitude" problem is. You even have my email address. Otherwise, it's prbobably a very good thing that you're bowing out of motd. -emarkp \_ Sheesh. I've been posting to the motd and walling for the better part of 15 years and in all that time I've never been threatened or insulted to any kind of level that bothers me much, even by people who obviously hold opposite viewpoints on a wide variety of topics and total freaks like dickylee. In fact, I believe motd and wall have actually become much more civil over time, probably because of the higher average age/maturity of the contributors. Maybe people should consider upgrading to a thicker skin. If you can't take the heat, stay off of the motd, so I agree with emarkp here ... -eric \_ You must be /this/ tall to ride the motd. Parental guidance suggested. \_ I am /that/ tall, and I've been on nearly as long as ERic, and I completely agree. --erikred \_ eric or ERic? Because I'm eric not ERic -eric \_ whoops, sorry. I meant ERic. mistaken identity. -erikred \_ You said ERic and meant ERic and that's mistaken identity? \_ Are two people named "Eric" having a debate about a third person named "Eric", or am I going slowly insane? \_ I hate you people....I really, really do. -confused sodan \_ Sigh it's not complicated. You see: eric == eric@soda ERic == mehlhaff@soda erik == erikred@soda Since I wrote the bit above I'm confused why he talks about ERic when that's not me. -eric (the one true eric) \_ Then we agree to agree. \_ i think there's just one guy who trolls specifically like this. anyone know who it is? is it someone posting via an outside-soda gateway? \_ It's kchang. -tom \_ is it kchang or a kchang-owned process that someone else used to troll? \_ My assessment of it being kchang has nothing to do with idle times or running processes. -tom \_ yes we know, you've been sniffing the engineering network for quite some time now, you phreak. \_ Yes, tom knows all and sees all. -emarkp \_ I just put the stones inside my magic hat and it came to me. I really don't think there are a large number of schizophrenic stalkers obsessed with who is posting what on the MOTD. -tom \_ tom, I don't want to know anything about your stones. -emarkp
 2005/10/26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40271 Activity:high 76%like:40277 10/25 To Politburo: The next time you decide to limit or modify a CSUA-wide feature, can \_ It wasn't a CSUA-wide feature. It was a www-wide feature. -emarkp \_ You are splitting hairs. you please please please consult motd or a well-populated mailing list first, you know, just to get the popular opinion? Thanks. -soda user \_ Politburo voted to *ask* kchang to turn off the attribution in KAIS MOTD, and specifically said that they weren't going to sorry him or anything if he refused. Read Brett's message carefully: the first paragraph is from politburo, the second is the opinion of one random person on root, and the third is from Brett personally. \_ Nice revisionist history. Politburo and root staff as bodies asked kchang to turn off attribution. One staff member (turns out to be Jon) said adding a disclaimer would be sufficient. (BTW, in my universe, the word of one root staff member is worth much less the the combined opinion of the politburo and the root staff. Perhaps it is different in your universe.) There was a threat of account shut down if kchang does not reply (not clear who the source of the threat is). And then there was a threat from Brett that kchang may violate the not-a-hoser rule. It is only in a *later* email that the hoser threat was removed in a "clarification". \_ BTW, the time line isn't clear. It is clear that Brett threatened kchang with hoserfication. It is also clear that the hoserfication threat was later removed in a clarification. When did the politburo had the finding that kchang was not being a hoser? Was it before Brett's threat, and therefore Brett had no grounds for his threat? Was it after the threat, so Brett thought he could legitimately threaten? Is misrepresenting the opinion of the politburo in an official communication a sorryable offense? \_ As amckee explained it, "[the CSUA] is not a democracy. We're [the Politburo] democratically elected, but once in office we have near complete authority to implement the policies we see fit. Think communist russia, not democratic greece." They are under no obligation to consider alternative points of view, and apparently they have no inclination to do so in any case. \- ObStarttheOutOfContextTimer \_ Time for another soda alias, keystone-kop@soda: amckee \_ Wouldn't that be kritical-keystone-kasset? \_ I nominate IWillBlackListYou for greatest troll of all time. \_ I dunno, it's got pretty stiff competition: GUN DUEL anyone? \_ Yeah--that one worked perfectly. -John \_ So besides being ticked off by the tone of the email, what is kchang's reason for not putting up the disclaimer and saving all of us eyestrain from reading an evergrowing motd? \_ kchang is under no obligation to provide the MOTD threading service. He did it as a favor, and I assume he no longer feels a desire to do favors for the current regime. \_ Maybe politburo should start drafting these things as a committe instead of delegating people to do it. You guys keep putting your collective foot in your mouth. -jrleek \_ Come back to the five and dime, Kevin Chang, Kevin Chang....
 2005/10/25-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40269 Activity:high 10/25 http://csua.com Uber-lame. \_ I suggest that various members of root staff and/or politburo are violating the "not being a hoser" clause by sending such a stupid message and shutting down a useful service. \_ root/politburo had only requested that kchang remove the faulty attribution feature. I think kchang took down the rest of it all on his own. \_ root/politburo clarified that the request was only for the removal of the faulty attribution feature. \_ politburo wields a big sword in front of kchang and tells him to take out 24HourDiff, then asks him to be nice and put back a useful archiver service. You honestly think that after wielding your big sword [and causing resentment], that he's going to be nice to you again? You fucking fresh politburo virgins just don't understand basic psychology. \_ Inconceivable! amckee has managed projects with 30 engineers flung across the globe (though we were never told why those engineers felt the need to flee), and the the Psychology Dept has classified him as a Critical Psycho Asset. How can he not know basic psychology? This is in all ways inconceivable. \_ I do not think that word means what you think it means \_ It was still an stupid message. What's with the vague innuendo? What's with the idiotic requirement in the first place? Why is energy being spent on that? (Also, the thing about not being a hoser basically suggests he had to shut it down.) \_ Well, amckee wrongly sorried someone based on kchang's attribution. That must be immensely embarrassing for amckee personally and the politburo in general. Of course they want to shut it down. In fact, isn't amckee the only documented case of someone actually doing bad things (rather than merely threatening to do bad things) based on kchang's attribution? \_ I suspect part of the rationale is that, by identifying users this way, it also opens up the door for persecution of individuals that post stuff that people don't find palatable for whatever reason. I'm just guessing about that, though, based on hearsay that I've heard. I haven't had a chance to decide for myself whether this is really reasonable. *shrug* \_ The biggest issue with the attribution feature \_ The biggest problem with the attribution feature is the fact that it was not reliable. Stating as fact to the world that "baz wrote this", when in fact it was written by foo is a problem. \_ But you have to respect how this was handled (sarcasm) No prior discussion a very widely used facility is is going to be forceably shut down and then "Last minute email from root ..." \_ But you have to respect how this was handled (sarcasm) No prior discussion a very widely used facility is is going to be forceably shut down and then "Last minute email from root ..." What does this refer to: "we don't think this is a sorryable offense"? Are you so delusional to think you could have sorried him for running it in the first place (Politburo edicts now may have retroactive liability?) or that if he didn't comply then you would not have sorried him? Was this an "order" on pain on being sorried or was it a request? Is the politburo interested in hearing requests to reactivate the service? Thanks for the detailed coverage of the Video Game Tournament though. \_ your facts are confused. \_ your facts are confused. -brett \- is this kinda like how i took things out of context when i provided links to the entire paper trail? maybe you can clarify? It seems the the PP is asking for clarification. "good night and good luck" --psb \_ Uhm, are you addressing me or politburo? I'm just taking a shot in the dark about why this service is being blamed. If you're addressing me then your hostility is very very misplaced. \_ I would say he is speaking of the action by Politburo. -someone else \_ Get your facts straight. \_ I agree with previous poster who says that process has been bungled. There could have been plenty of discussion from soda users via motd or listserv on what to do (if anything) about kchang's logging feature, but this resource was not consulted. This is the power of Politburo, but Politburo exercised this power ... unwisely in this case. \_ he was asked merely to put up a disclaimer about the inherent inaccuracy of his system. he chose instead to shut it down. \_ kchang was asked twice to remove a feature. kchang took down his motd site. It was clarified by mrauser that "Your welcome to turn it back on, but it would be nice if you disabled the feature that attributed each post to whomever you thought made it" kchang hasn't posted the clarification on his website. -brett \_ "[T]here is doubt regarding whether your use of CSUA resources violates the 'not being a hoser' clause of the CSUA policy" clearly sounds like a threat. Perhaps it is unreasonable to expect kchang to play nice after being threatened. \_ [brett's clarification removed after I removed the point requiring clarification] \-So the position is "The pburo believes it is acceptable for mr kchang to include a disclaimer about the accuracy of the attributions and operate as before"? (If you are replying to clarify, and are a root/pburo person, it would be helpful if you would sign your name, for obvious reasons). --psb \_ I'm not a politburrito (anymore, thank god), but given that there's not really anything keeping someone else from doing this sort of thing, I don't see the point in telling kchang or anyone else not to do this. Asking to take into consideration its effects on motd as a forum (and possibly turn it off)? Sure. Personally, I draw a line at not noting the inherent inaccuracy of this system. While amckee should have known better anyway, I think it's pretty lame to attribute posts to people based on circumstantial information without noting that the conclusions are circumstancial too --Jon \_ Clarification please. Many of us have our personal attribution scripts. Is it acceptable for us to run them? Is it acceptable for kchang to release his scripts so other people can run them? Strictly for each runner's personal use and entertainment, of course. \_ It's one thing to come to your own conclusions about who wrote what, based on whatever methods you chose, whether it be ps(1) info, w, fstat, the phase of the moon, reading /dev/random, whatever. It's another to tell others your conclusions ala KAIS without at least letting others know how reliable your conclusions are and how reliable your methods are. --Jon \_ While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. I asked very specific questions, and I am really look for answers, and not just replies. Are we allowed to run our own scripts? Are we allowed to run kchang's scripts, should he choose to release them? -pp \_ I think it's clear you're welcome to run anything you like for your own personal use. You're being asked not to take that same unreliable information and post it to the public as if it was a source of truth without noting it isn't reliable and is just a poor guess at best. Having been accused of posting things by other people when I wasn't even around and then seeing my name next to some garbage later on a public website is just plain wrong. I've had 'magical kchang quality scripts' for years before he started logging&attributing in public. I have *never* used those scripts to "out" anyone. They can't be 100% reliable and it's distasteful and a gauche to do so anyway. \_ Amusing, I had done the same thing. I figured out who the anonymous Freeper was, but just\ kept it to myself. -ausman out who the anonymous Freeper was, but just kept it to myself. -ausman \_ Are we talking about the same Berkeley students who are supposed to be semi-intelligent enough to understand that (a) something like motd posting attribution is trivial and irrelevant (IT'S THE FUCKING MOTD, FFS) and (b) they shouldn't necessarily take what an off-site resource says at total 100% religious face value? -John \_ it isn't just the motd. it is posted on a public website as if it was truth. just because you don't care doesn't mean others don't or that their opinions on the subject of being falsely attributed to some really horrendous things don't count. \_ I read it on the Internet, so it must be true. I guess I haven't been in the US for a while, so I forgot how thin-skinned and whiny people are. Give me a fucking break. -John \_ they've gotten dumber since you left, Fuzzy. that, and I making a distinction, even if it ends an irrelevant one. -Jon \_ Just because people have become dumber doesn't mean you have to pander to them. -John \_ in the end, it's not about them, but about people who wrongly (knowingly or uncaringly) attribute actions to others on false grounds \- hey it's like FBI v. NWA again! http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/3.chilling-effect (see last paragraph) them? Yes, I am aware there would be a scalability problem. -pp \_ It's common knowledge that kchang's toys \_ I think kchang knows that his results are inherently not accurate. I know you and I know. I wouldn't call that "common knowledge". --Jon are inaccurate, so I don't think you can claim he's actively "attributing actions" uncaringly, just that his scripts are bad. Are you claiming he did so knowingly and intentionally? Because then politburo should come out and say so. -John \_ I think kchang knows that his results are inherently not accurate. I know you and I know. I wouldn't call that "common knowledge". --Jon \_ So anyone who finds my name incorrectly associated with some garbage at his log will know his toy is inaccurate and not assume I wrote something that has my name next to it? I've seen the stuff come out in search engines and not all of us use a name like "John" that will get 8 zillion hits. No, you don't think some person doing a background check will know or care that it is wrong. They will see it and take it at face value and that is far more wrong than him turning off his toy or at a minimum making it loud and clear on each page that his attributions are no better than random spew and should not be taken seriously. \_ And then they will take my kitten away and make me do the dishes and I won't be able to go to all the kewl places because everyone will hate me... Chill out dude. It's the motd and there is a disclaimer. If you're afraid of being tracked for your beliefs and/or quirks, don't post. \_ Missing point: I didn't post but got attributed anyway. \_ Just disclaim it. Like everyone in BushCo does. Point to disclaimer. If getting accused of doing something offensive on the net is going to ruin your future life, your current/future/both life really sucks. \_ You rarely get a chance to disclaim anything. No one is going to tell you why they made a decision. As far as my life/career, etc, you have no clue. Either way, great life or bad, I shouldn't get smeared by a broken script even if it had zero effect on my life. \_ So you're worried a script will randomly ID you as a poster of an offensive item even if you never post. As much as I admire your paranoia, I think you're nuts. You need to ask root to delete your account now just to be super safe. \_ If you're going to go work at a place that does background checks by browsing hozerish archives of student bbs, I am speechless, and I am sorry at how you have thrown away a good Cal education. -John \_ Nice, also not your place to determine what sort of place might read what and what it looks like in a search engine to an outside investigator. When you provide all of us a dream job with no background checks and we choose to go elsewhere, then we'll talk. \_ I like killin' babies. -hmiers \_ All hail the power of the press/goverment/religious ideologues to locate this misattributed quote to bring down a USSC nominee! \_ So the rest of the world should adapt itself to your lack of career clue? Get over yourself. Nobody's interested that you fiddle litle boys. I guess turning this off REMOVES ALL POSSIBILITY OF ANYONE PUBLICLY SLANDERING YOU! -John \_ I'm glad you are Knower Of All. I feel better now that you put up a straw man and knocked it down for me. \_ Am I wrong? -John \_ Well, no. "The CSUA Politburo and members of Root Staff request that you [kchang] remove the attribution feature from your KAIS MOTD." *One* member of root staff wrote that a disclaimer is sufficient in lieu of a full shut down, but it seems clear the politburo and the root staff as full bodies wanted the service shut down. \_ Since I'm sick of reading datasheets, I'll keep on posting. That "*one* member of root staff" was me. --Jon in fact it was written by foo is the issue. \_ Thanks for the clarification. -brett \- hey it's like FBI v. NWA again! http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/3.chilling-effect (see last paragraph) \_ Which is a reasonable request. kchang is just being a baby. -emarkp \_ It was phrased as a threat. As little respect as I have for kchang, he never claimed his toys were authoritative. The people being babies here are the ones whining about "oh n0es, bad things are being attributed to me on the internet!" Whatever. Rampant whiny stupidity just pisses me off. -John \_ It wasn't the first time someone had complained about the inaccuracy of his attributions. His rampant whiny arrogance pissed me off. -emarkp \_ Care to explain why he is whiny and arrogant? \_ Fair enough--like I said. Anyway, re-posting wall & motd and making false attributions (or b.s. ones and claiming they're authoritative) doesn't require csua membership. Note finger?lwall ... -John \_ Forgeries (signing a post with someone else's name) are an obvious possibility of (semi)anonymous things like motd. Saying that you've determined who made a post to motd without saying how certain or uncertain you are is something else. \_ It's usually not considered good etiquette to piss on people who provide a useful service for free. All non-morons knew the vageries involved in the attribution functionality and took them with a grain of salt. I'm pretty sympathetic to kchang here. Maybe he could create a version of KAIS MOTD that requires authetentication so it it so longer requires authentication so it would no longer open to the world at large. \_ like root@csua.berkeley.edu?
 2005/10/25-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40262 Activity:low 10/25 Did amckee ever apologize to anyone? Is he squished yet? \_ Read the minutes sometime. \_ From the minutes, amckee did not apologize. He resigned. But, according to the minutes, he was persuaded by those at the meeting to un-resign. Personally I still think an apology is in order, but whatever. \_ He was also removed from root, and didn't ask to be reinstated. \_ I'm sorry you're ugly. \_ Did amckee explain why he decided to resign? That's not in the minutes either. Since most CSUA members do not read motd, they have to reply on the minutes for an explanation of what they have to rely on the minutes for an explanation of what happened. \_ Irritating alumni can make kitchen hot. \_ Do not meddle in the affairs of alumni, for they are subtle and quick to anger? \_ Half right. \_ He should apologize to the people he sorried or threatened to sorry. How many people is that? \_ I never intended to sorry that user, Partha S. Banerjee \- who is the "I" here? --psb \_ It's like the CSUA's own Watergate. An Enemies List, the Saturday Night Massacre, the missing email from the psb-politburo exchange, the Vice-Presidential Pardon, and a tainted Imperial Presidency and Cabinet. \_ Why can't it be more like Monicagate, at least that involved a blowjob. \_ No, Watergate was serious. This is just, in the words of a great wise man whose name is lost to the sands of time, "U S0 == TeH GHEI, D0)D." -John \_ Obviously it's not a "national nightmare" of Watergate proportions and perhaps appropriately it ends [although I suppose "end" may be premature] with humiliation rather than a convinction, but there is a "civics lecture" aspect to this, sort of like there is to the other sorry saga of Harriet Miers. Maybe Bushco will suggest character assassinating her is of HARRIET THE JUDGE. Maybe BUSHCO will suggest CHARACTER ASSASSINATING her is like attacking the govt and is akin to terrorism. (re: humiliation ... I assume amckee resigned out of a sense of TERRORISM. (re: humiliation ... I assume mr. amckee resigned out of a sense of shame, rather than needing to spend more time with say Arabian Horses. my apologies if he was really resigned for other personal reasons such as illness.) time with say Arabian Horses. my apologies if he was really resigned for other personal reasons such as illness.) \_ The only lesson in this is about stupid people and small-organization politics. -John of HARRIET THE JUDGE. Maybe BUSHCO will suggest CHARACTER ASSASSINATING her is like attacking the LEAST DANGEROUS BRANCH of the govt and is akin to TERRORISM. personal reasons such as illness.) --psb
 2005/10/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40173 Activity:high 10/18 The following people attended politburo: bonnie, awall, scarr, myungk, mconst, amckee, mrauser, mbh, geordan, jon, ajani, njh, mikeh, vadim, linxu. Who is a student and who is an alum? _____________________________________ < Politburo Approved for YOUR safety! > ------------------------------------- \ ^__^ \ (xx)\_______ (__)\ )\/\ U ||----w | || || ObDoNotTauntTheAMcKeePolitburo \_ Students: bonnie, awall, scarr, mkim (aka myungk), amckee, mrauser, mbh, linxu, rfm (not mentioned above). \_ Students: bonnie, awall, scarr, myungk, amckee, mrauser, mbh, linxu. \_ Students: bonnie, awall, scarr, mkim (aka myungk), amckee, mrauser, mbh, linxu, rfm (not mentioned above). Staff: jon, mikeh, vadim. Neither: mconst, geordan, ajani, njh. --mconst \_ bonnie, awall, amckee, mrauser, mbh, linxu are students. the rest are alumns. - linxu \_ Another newer member rfm was there also, he just wasn't in the minutes. -mrauser \_ So does the Politburo have a "vision thing" for the CSUA? _____________________________________ < Politburo Approved for YOUR safety! > ------------------------------------- \ ^__^ \ (xx)\_______ (__)\ )\/\ U ||----w | || || ObDoNotTauntTheAMcKeePolitburo \_ Say it with me: I will respect the politburo's authoritay! \_ Was there a politburo meeting? Any news to report? \_ Yes. Ruling Soda With An Iron Fist! \_ The official minutes are at http://csua.org/u/drj Quick summary: the meeting was long and well-attended. amckee resigned, but by the end of the meeting pretty much everyone agreed to reinstate him (without root). Politburo decided not to log the motd, at least for the time being, and will actually try to make it more anonymous. There's now an explicit policy that root should ask politburo before sorrying someone, except for account breakins and similar emergency stuff. --mconst \_ The minutes are particularly weak on explaining the discussion about the motd. Basically it was decided that logging it or moving it to somewhere else would decrease the possible use- fulness to new students. We proposed instead to try and do something which would improve the overall quality of the motd and return it more to its original purpose, an anonymous discussion. It was proposed we would create a program, much like /csua/bin/motdedit that would allow a user near total anonimity (or in the words of Vadim "we can make it really hard to figure out who posted") when editing motd. In theory, this will reduce the amount of personal attacks and trolling in general. I hope this clears up the current course we are taking in regards to the motd. -mrauser \_ The minutes are weak on the exact course of discussion because if I write too much, then people will think things that are just hypothetical or randomly proposed are under serious consideration. -linxu \_ I don't think it's accurate to say that the motd's original purpose was to be anonymous. In the early days, pretty much everyone signed their names. It turned out to be anonymous simply because it was a world-writable file, so it attracted people who didn't want to be identifiable. -tom \_ How long was it before, say, half the posts were no longer signed? (honestly, just curious) -mice \_ I don't really recall, but trolling didn't take over until the mid to late 90s. -tom \_ Interesting. What happened in the mid to late 90s that made people want to troll? And who do you think is the best troller of all time? \_ I think the main thing was one or two dipwads (reiffin and ecchang) realized they could get away with saying just about anything, and get more response to their trolls than they would in any forum which attached a name to their comments (because they would quickly be identified as cranks otherwise). [Funny that this keeps being deleted] -tom \_ no, it is ridiculous that you'd feel the need to post such trash based on your broken de-anon scripts, especially in the context of the ongoing "let's make the motd not suck" discussions ongoing. there is no need for this. \_ Oh, come on; it's established fact that both of those guys are trollers, and also dipwads. Sorry to have to call you out, anonymous coward. -tom \_ Seriously, get over it. We just got through a whole thing about bad logging and bad blood in the csua. Why do you insist on doing this? Let it go. \_ I'm just explaining how the MOTD turned from a useful resource where pretty much everyone signed their name, into a cesspool filled with anonymous cowards like you. -tom \_ No, you're making into that very cesspool you claim to not like. Signing or not signing made no difference. In some ways it made it worse. Case in point: you're signing your vicious petty little attack right now. \- holube is an endangered species and removing his cesspool habitat violates the endangered species act \_ The motd has always been a den of iniquity. Perhaps in your deluded memories it was all sweetness and light, but as with many free and open forums, it lost that innocence long, long ago. (unlike most sodans) \_ I think the MOTD has always beeen sardonic and sarcastic, but I don't think it was actively hostile. -tom \_ tjb is the best troller of all time \_ Honestly? The Clinton presidency. It got ugly. \_ How far back was 'original', anyway? -gm \_ I believe /etc/motd was first made world-writable on the original Apollo, which would mean 1988 or so. -tom \- I dont think there was an explicit view of anonymity when it was decided to create the motd.public either, but I think if you would ask people to pick what is more important: A: a forum where people are free to discuss whatever they want ... we'll call this the "liberty position" or B: fostering a certain atmosphere/culture/ environment ... let's call that "a vision of the good" \_ I think the main thing was one or two dipwads (reiffin and ecchang) realized they could get away with saying just about anything, and get more response to their trolls than they would in any forum which attached a name to their comments (because they would quickly be identified as cranks otherwise). -tom I think many people would advocate implementing A and **hoping*for*B**. However, I am not defending I think many people would advocate implementing A and hoping for B. However, I am not defending this on "orginalist" grounds, but I think that is a superior position for other reasons [like I think political speech should get higher protection than commercial speech, for reasons other than "what would the founders do"]. I do recognize certain issues like threats and harassment, "structural attacks" [writing a cronjob to munge or destroy the motd], mis- cronjob to munge or destroy the MOTD], mis- attributing links to the danhimal or others etc complicate the question. But I still think at this point A > B. ok tnx. --ANONYMOUS etc complicate the question, but I still think at this point A > B. ok tnx. --THE DANHIMAL at this point A > B. ok tnx. --ANONYMOUS \_ "vision of the good?" who *are* you?? \- i am not sure what your point/implication is but this is sort of in the spirit of how some terms are used in philosophy. i cannot go into detail about this in the MOTD but you can search the WEEB for expressions like ("priority of right over [the] good" rawls kant philosophy liberty). there is some discussion of this at: http://www.civsoc.com/cltphil/cltphil6.html or look for "right over the good" at "http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,848488,00.html if you have access to JSTOR you may be able to find: Rawls J: "The Priority of Right and Ideas of the Good." which is an important paper. At least that is what I learned in the rhetoric class I took on amckee's advice. --ANON \_ did psb ever take a class other than freshman rhetoric? You can log a forum and still have people free to say what they want. -tom \_ I don't agree. Some of the truly lame/offensive arguments would likely not be made in a non-anon forum b/c the speaker may self censor to avoid public ridicule. If the primary concern is the free discussion of all ideas regardless of how lame or offen- sive, then the potential that some ideas will not be presented dictates that the forum be anon. If no value is attached to lame or offensive ideas, then there is no reason not to log. \_ There are plenty of lame ideas posted in non-anonymous forums. \_ There are plenty of lame ideas posted in non-anonymous forums. -tom \_ Could tom be getting dumber? \_ Now if you were to give the example of usenet I'd be tempted to agree w/ you. \_ Did amckee admit to wrongdoing and issue an apology as part of his resignation? Put another way, did amckee explain why he resigned as president? The minutes are skimpy on this. \- Perhaps, but the vocal disapproval of the alumni has changed some of the poltiburo's beliefs on what the vision should be and how it should be achieved. -linxu
 2005/10/18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40166 Activity:very high  _____________________________________ < Politburo Approved for YOUR safety! > ------------------------------------- \ ^__^ \ (xx)\_______ (__)\ )\/\ U ||----w | || || ObDoNotTauntTheAMcKeePolitburo \_ Say it with me: I will respect the politburo's authoritay! \_ Was there a politburo meeting? Any news to report? \_ The meeting was long and well-attended. amckee resigned, but by \_ Yes. Ruling Soda With An Iron Fist! \_ The official minutes are at http://csua.org/u/drj Quick summary: the meeting was long and well-attended. amckee resigned, but by the end of the meeting pretty much everyone agreed to reinstate him (without root). Politburo decided not to log the motd, at least for the time being, and will actually try to make the motd more anonymous. There's now an explicit policy that root should ask politburo before sorrying someone, except for account breakins and similar emergency stuff. The official minutes are in /csua/pub/minutes/F2005/20051017.politburo. --mconst least for the time being, and will actually try to make it more anonymous. There's now an explicit policy that root should ask politburo before sorrying someone, except for account breakins and similar emergency stuff. --mconst \_ The minutes are particularly weak on explaining the discussion about the motd. Basically it was decided that logging it or moving it to somewhere else would decrease the possible use- fulness to new students. We proposed instead to try and do something which would improve the overall quality of the motd and return it more to its original purpose, an anonymous discussion. It was proposed we would create a program, much like /csua/bin/motdedit that would allow a user near total anonimity (or in the words of Vadim "we can make it really hard to figure out who posted") when editing motd. In theory, this will reduce the amount of personal attacks and trolling in general. I hope this clears up the current course we are taking in regards to the motd. -mrauser \_ I don't think it's accurate to say that the motd's original purpose was to be anonymous. In the early days, pretty much everyone signed their names. It turned out to be anonymous simply because it was a world-writable file, so it attracted people who didn't want to be identifiable. -tom \_ How long was it before, say, half the posts were no longer signed? (honestly, just curious) -mice \_ I don't really recall, but trolling didn't take over until the mid to late 90s. -tom \_ How far back was 'original', anyway? -gm \_ I believe /etc/motd was first made world-writable on the original Apollo, which would mean 1988 or so. -tom
 2005/10/18-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40151 Activity:nil 10/18 After motd is successfully Christianized, Conservatized, and jrleeked, let's all migrate to http://csua.org/motd \_ We can just use /csua/tmp/motd* \_ We can just use /csua/tmp/motd.sexfarm
 2005/10/17-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40141 Activity:nil 10/17 Hi motd and Politburo: Is it okay to post on http://ucb.org.csua all e-mail exchanges between psb and cc'd to {politburo,csua}@csua.berkeley.edu? I am specifically excluding private messages sent between psb and individual Politburo members with no cc's to the above e-mail addresses. Thanks. If you want me to e-mail politburo@csua.berkeley.edu with this request instead of asking on motd, please go ahead and post that. \- BTW, it's ok with me. BTW, is this a "sorryable" offense now? Is http://ucb.org.csua moderated now? --psb
 2005/10/16-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40127 Activity:moderate 10/16 Dear danh, geordan, psb, peterl, tse, lafe, mice, john, and many others who have been posting on motd. I'd suggest you guys stop publicly criticizing amckee because he has no problem squishing all of you. I'd take his threat seriously as he already squished someone who threatened to blacklist him at HRs and headhunters throughout Silicon Valley. I for one will stop saying anything bad on motd because I value my soda account. -fearful alumus \_ Troll troll troll your boat -John \_ funny, these are among the members who have consistently provided the most support when I've ran into horrible technical problems during the course of my work and have turned to the motd or wall for help. -sax \- I have a feeling Mr. Tse will be unavailable when the pburo is looking for HSPICE help or hotel recommendations on the Cote d'Azur. :-) --psb \_ 1 for 2. No Cote d'Azur for me. Even you should remember my dislike of the French. My advice is to go to Valencia, Hotel Ad Hoc Monumental. I can answer most questions spice and verilog related though. -tse \_ I've evolved beyond spice and cote d'azur. - tse \_ You remind me of the grad students who accuse the grad student union people of "intimidation" because they're annoying, and claim that grad students live in fear of "union intimidation tactics". "Union intimidation tactics" means coming by your lab and trying to get you to go drink coffee and hear about their union. You only have to tell them to fuck off and threaten to call the cops on them once, and they *never* come back, and mark your entire department as "anti union", avoiding that whole section of the building. Just as blathering about a union is not "intimidation", threatening to turn off an email account is not a serious threat. Have you also started to self-censor what books you check out from the library because the feds might come after you? \_ Heh, thanks for looking out for me, man. -mice \_ I think you need to relax. Nobody is going to get squished for their motd post without a politburo vote. -mbh, vp \_ Didn't amckee sorry Brett (and then had to unsorry him when it turns out Brett was the wrong guy)? Did amckee manage to sorry the right guy eventually? \_ It is rather amusing that after politburo members pedantically promise to be fair and impartial after they possibly implement motd logging, and after politburo members write, at length, about how reasonable and wise they are... one of them goes off the handle and sorries someone for strange reasons. I guess sorrying someone is a lot easier than emailing someone. Anyway I don't have much of anything useful to add, please don't destroy the CSUA, it's been nice knowing many of you. - danh \_ Yes, that was a mistake and amckee has acknowledged it. That kind of impulsive sorrying is not the regular course of action. -mbh \_ What CSUA policy has the person posting about the "blacklist" violated? \_ None, it was just a troll -mbh \- just for clarification: is the mbh position "the user who posted the blacklist post should not have been sorried because he was just 'trolling'". while the acmkee position is he should have been sorried, but because we do not know who it is we cannot do so, but if we do discover who it is, then we will sorry the user? i inquire because there are a lot of thoughts attributed to "the politburo" and it seems like they are not of one mind here. --psb \_ I apologize I should be more clear when speaking on behalf of the CSUA. psb you stated my opinion clearly. That post should have read "my position would be to ignore it". -mbh \_ Is there an established CSUA process to sorry someone? Is there an established CSUA policy to punish root staff who arbitrarily sorries someone without following the established process? Is there a plan to follow the established policies and punishments in this case? \_ I read through the CSUA constitution and /csua/adm/doc/policies, and it appears that the rules are VERY non-specific, probably intentionally. Now, if you wanted a heavyweight approach to policies ... \_ It seems to be up to the discretion of the politburo. I am guessing nothing will be done. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? \_ Whatever. I'll say whatever the hell I want. I've made backups of my homedir here. Oh noes, amckee might flip out and wield his AWESOME POWER and squish me. It's fine, learn 2 govern. -geordan \_ You go geordan! Go kick ass the same way you kicked Susan Graham's ass in 164... or not. :) \_ Savage Susan is still terrorizing undergrads in 164? Wow. \_ You make a good point. I'm nowhere near as Powerful as amckee. That's probably why I've never been christened as a 'Critical Asset'. -geordan \_ Stop it, your minority voice is gonna cause every single alumni to be squished. There goes 30 years of tradition \_ Yes, and amckee has acknowledged the mistake. And there is no 'right guy' either because the post was a troll. and that kind of impulsive sorrying will not happen. -mbh \_ I'm pretty sure I didn't actually post anything about amckee. --peterl \_ You don't have to actually post anything. amckee just has to think you posted something. And the post doesn't necessarily have to do with amckee; he just has to think it does. - tse \_ Btw, I've told all the opera companies I've sung with not to hire amckee. Yes, he has the voice of an angel, but his diva 'tude and doesn't-play-nice-with-others issues makes him impossible to work with. --not-scotsman \_ that's right kid! you'll never work in Broadway again. \_ Was amckee a Critical Opera Asset too?
 2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40123 Activity:low 10/16 How exactly did "make motd anon, semi-anon, or non-anon" turn into some hostile "students/politburo vs. alum" hate fest? I keep reading stuff that strongly implies that "total anon motd" is the "what alums want" and a "logged motd (of some sort)" is what "students/politburo wants". This is clearly not the case. Some alums want a totally anon motd, some want a semi-anon motd and others have wanted it completely non-anon going back many years. Given that the vote on this vaguely defined motion was not unanimous in pburo and that they have "already spent over 50 hours" discussing and dealing with it, it seems like "the students/pburo" aren't of a single mind either. This whole students vs alums thing is a red herring that seems intended to misdirect the entire non/anon motd discussion. Unfortunately, it seems to have succeeded. :-( Wake up, the strings are being pulled. \_ I was with you up till that last line. Who's pulling the strings? The Illuminati? strings? The Illuminaiti? \_ It's not a conspiracy. There's someone who wants us to not talk about the real issue but to babble about this us vs them, students vs alum nonsense. If not we wouldn't have been diverted off the original topic on to this hatred garbage. I'm asking everyone to ignore that noise and go back to the real issue: the motd and how to make it not suck. \_ Are you saying we got Karl Roved? --PeterM \_ The issue is that the politburo has decided that it wants to make a change (whether it was unaninmous or not is not really germane). There is an uproar about the change, and I am confident that 100% of the people who are complaining about the idea are not current students. I think it is quite difficult to argue that the MOTD in its current state serves the CSUA's active members, and similarly hard to argue that the proposed change will have any deleterious effect on MOTD discussion. -tom \_ So what does qualify for being on the motd? HW and test answers? Sunshine, pretty flowers, fuzzy wuzzy bunny rabbits and baby \_ Don't fuck wih Fuzzy Bunnies. -John chicks, and meeting announcements? Does the motd get to be a disasterous insane and inane public forum or the same chirpy, go-CSUA-happy-happy-joy-joy message every day? What is the politburo's "vision" of the motd? \_ Complete non sequitur and red herring. -tom \_ Not really. If I don't want to be sorried for posting to the motd, what are the rules? If there are no rules, well, just say so and note that people will be sorried by fiat. If you know what will best serve the active members of the CSUA in the motd, I'd be happy to read it. \_ How about, the exact same as the rules about being sorried for walling. It's not that complicated to figure out what you should and shouldn't do. And that's completely separate from the question of whether usage should be logged (as it is in every other form of electronic communication). -tom \_ And the official wall rules are? And as shown over the weekend, logging can lead to arbitary sorrying. Changed this time, but still sets an interesting precedent. What is the politburo's vision of what the CSUA should be? (not really directed at tom per se, but an open question) \_ Actually, it was lack of logging that led to arbitrary sorrying; if the MOTD were logged, you would never sorry "the wrong man." -tom \_ I think it's more unchecked ego than lack of logging that led to arbitrary sorrying in this case.
 2005/10/16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40122 Activity:low 10/15 As recent ('05) alumnus, I'm very disturbed about the tone being taken towards alumni by the current pburo. Is this because of bad feelings towards people like psb & etc for bitching about the MOTD change, or is it really about the mass alumni community? I found the (recent) alumni community to be an invaluable resource to me when I was a student; I even attended social functions with 'geezers' like nevman and felt enriched for it. I never partied with nweaver, though. Everyone is right about networking, but I think that the CSUA alumni community goes beyond that. It's just a pretty freaking awesome group of people! Where else could I go and have a handful of people spend three hours recovering my fubared laptop hdd (thanks ajani, vadim, mconst!) and then laugh with me at my stupidity? Current members are running the CSUA, no ifs or buts about it. But I hope amckee is not representative of the majority of pburo or current memberships when he asks "Why should we even allow alumni on our servers?" The whole point is that alumni have jobs and lives and our servers are what really creates the crossroads for the alumni community to flourish. Would you rather have irc.csua be for current csua members and make dbushoung delink and run an irc server for alumni? A serious schism between alumni and current membership strikes me as the worst thing that could come out of the MOTD changes, whatever happens. -jhs \_ I have been fortunate to have worked with several alumni, and almost all of these interactions have been positive and rewarding. The politburo, and me, have nothing but respect and admiration for the vast majority of alumni. Hell, we even respect psb. However, there is a very vocal miniority of alumni that are helping to derail the CSUA. As others have said, the alumni are an invaluable resource - for jobs, for insight, for a million things. However, how likely is it that the majority of them - reasonable, level-headed, non-trollish peoplt that they are - will look to the CSUA with repect, given the environment that we're seeing here in the MOTD? If I had a job opening, of which I've represented many in the past, I most certainly would not take it to an environment that appeared to be filled with petulant children, as I would argue we see here. \_ No, you'd take it to individual people whom you've seen provide a high signal to noise ratio compared to the petulant children. Trust me, people are grown-up enough to know not to rely on the tenor of a publicly writeable text file as a primary means for judging the membership of an organization. -John It's not that the majority of CSUA alumni are like this, far from it, it's just that the vocal minority of ones that are seem to disproportionally represent the 'culture' of the CSUA. So yes, we're frustrated with some of the alumni that you see here, but that in no way translates to all of them. Hell, perhaps some of them would even come back into the fold, if they didn't think this would end up like some kindergarten in the Bronx. And no, there are no plans to boot alumni - that was never a proposition. What was said was that we put a *LOT* of effort into this environment, mainly used by alumni, and the generosity of this does not seem to be appreciated. We're not a free ISP, we're a professional student organization, and it's only reasonable that we have -some- expectations out of how we use our servers. Like, "don't act like children". We desperately want alumni to be a more important part of this organization, but we need to constantly evaluate whether that is happening and what we can do to improve it. And, it's important to note, the 'alumni commmunity' stretches much wider than the MOTD audience, and we try to keep that perspective in mind, as well. Not only will a slightly less hostile MOTD be good for new students, it may very well attract more alumni who have been turned off on it. -amckee \_ Just as a tiny piece of advice, if I may be so bold, consider paring down your essays a bit and working on making a point in a more succinct manner--it's more effective. -John \_ And the "why should we allow alumni.." quote was a rhetorical one, intended to solicit retrospection and perspective. Communicating subtleties of intent are often difficult in 'informal' environments like this, and there's at least a fair chance that much of the animosity comes from both sides misinterpreting the intentions of the other. As always, talking about things like this face to face is always far more productive. Alumni are always welcome to attend politburo meetings (Mondays @@ 7pm) and share their thoughts. As people like mconst and dlong can attest to, we (and I, especially) make a lot of effort to solicit their views. An alumni representative actually sat with us during the MOTD debate and provided more insight and dialog than any other participant in the audience (politburo included). This insight was invaluable. We ultimately decided on the side of anonymity, which was not the position they represented, but it helped give us a much deeper perspective. If you feel strongly about something, then the place to broach that is in person at our meetings. To be honest, with all the emotion on the MOTD, it's hard to take things too seriously - and it's easy to get into too 'defensive' a mode of debate. And as much of an apparent schism as seems to exist, this almost always collapses when you realize that the person on the other side of the debate is an actual 'person'. -amckee \_ Above, you write "we ultimately decided on the side of anonymity"? In the minutes of the meeting, I thought the 4-1 vote to "Modify the system" was a vote to institute motd logging? Please explain. \_ I typed too quickly. We decided to enable a provision such that, in extreme circumstances, the politburo could identify the source of an motd edit and deal with them offline, through our normal disciplinary channels. This would never include de-anonymizing them to the motd. amckee \_ It seems clear that the decision to deanon is one for the pburo to make. The most reasonable complaint I've heard is that the proposal was not structured or formalized well. This seems fair, and it may be that the MOTD's importance to some alumni was underestimated? Putting in the effort to get both a technical solution and a policy that is robust and as liberal as possible seems worth it (especially if alumni can be made to do most of the work?). But I'll likewise agree that some of the same people who are complaining the loudest don't seem to understand the reality of today's student body, and don't give credit when credit is due to the work put in by the current pburo. Of course this is *some* people, I've seen plenty of jvarga props in the last few months. -jhs \_ And yes, jvarga deserves definite props. We sometimes ride him a bit hard, but he's always had what he felt was the best interests of the CSUA at heart. We may disagree occasionally, but he's been one of the most self-sacrificing individuals I've known. -amckee \_ The decision I actually proposed was more alumni friendly than what was originally proposed, in my opinion. We decided that we needed the capability to identify motd edit authors, but I wanted to leave the implementation (technical and theorhetical) largely up to the alumni. This got thrown back in our face as "we don't want to eat your dog food". Reasonable, but perhaps more rooted out of initial frustration. Although we aren't negotiable on the need for the provision, we're pretty flexible on how it's done and we're fairly open to suggestions on how disciplinary action should be handled. My own idea was that if someone is making threatening, slanderous, or hostile attacks or comments against another person - the sort of things that you would not expect to find in a work place or professional environment - that we need to be able to deal with that person. In most circumstances, this would probably start out with a warning. In circumstances like the one that initially prompted this whole mess, it might lead straight to sorrying. As with all such disciplinary actions, this is a matter decided upon by the politburo. (Granted, if someone is being a real pest, an officer or root staff may need to temp-sorry them until a vote can be made.) At no point did we ever discuss or suggest that we would "tell the world" who the offender was, that'd just be silly - especially since most of us don't even use the MOTD. For the most part, it'd probably be a system such that we only got involved if someone complained (or how else would we know about it?) Hopefully, once tempers calm down, we can get some more productive suggestions on a solution that is as palatable as possible to the users of the forum. - amckee
 2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40121 Activity:high 10/16 C'mon people, stop threatening to not hire anyone, or sorrying people. \_ I agree, that was done in very poor taste. Amckee has put a _lot_ of work into this organization and just because you disagree with him is no justification for the threats. You have also disproved the benefit that the alumni offer, this is like counter-networking, not offering csua members jobs but making sure that a csua member is not hired. You certainly should be ashamed of yourself. -mrauser \_ "Go go mrauser networking skills!" \_ No one guarantees anyone a job. If there is an offer of help, the offer has been to help when a fellow csua-er seems competent and reasonable, or at least doesn't seem incompetent and unreasonable. It's not about the decision to de-anonymize motd; it's about amckee's response to criticism afterwards. Looking dispassionately at his emails wth Partha and his posts on motd, does he seem like a reasonable person to you? Does he seem like someone you would want to work with? Looking dispassionately at his emails and his posts on motd, does he seem like a reasonable person to you? Does he seem like someone you would want to work with? \_ Much of the psb emails were taken out of context, he really was being sort of a pain. He would retort to an argument with a completely sarcastic comment that deserved no response. That said, no matter how I feel about how amckee acts I would never start a "blacklist" campaign. Thats obscene. YOU are welcome to not hire him all you want but its truly not fair to go out of your way to ensure that hes not hired anywhere else. -mrauser \_ Give the grownups a little credit. We're not all that amazingly juvenile. -John \_ do you really think sorrying someone over 'being annoying in email to politburo/root' is valid? you should read my mailspool, it would make you cry. - danh \_ No, I don't think that, nor do I believe I said that. I thought I just said it isn't right to organize a "blacklisting" movement. -mrauser \_ I must be reading The Psb Files in a different language than you. I think you threaten to sorry psb for being annoying. Or maybe it's someone else. I must admit I get the logins of current politburo members confused. Also, you got trolled pretty hard, it happens to most people eventually. \_ I think if you will look at emails that I sent the word sorry does not appear in them at all (although I'm not positive). Please aim your flame more selectively. ;) -mrauser \_ If it had been a flame, you would have noticed real quick. -John >To: amckee@berkeley.edu, psb@ucsee.eecs.berkeley.edu >Subject: Re: Character attacks >Cc: politburo@csua.berkeley.edu >From: "Partha S. Banerjee,,," >Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:16:47 -0700 >>This is your first and last warning, Partha. If I continue to see character >>assassinations against any member of the politburo, myself included, I will >>sorry your account. If I continue to see defamation against my character, I >>will file for a restraining order against you that bars you from your >>behavior. No friends that you think you have on the 'inside' will be able >>to help you. I have no tolerance for your bullshit and I am keeping a log >>of the things you say which, so far, have been happily easy to attribute to >>you. If you wish to debate an issue or represent a political idea, do so as >>an adult. You're welcome to come to the next Politburo meeting and discuss >>the concerns you have, but you will not be able to hide behind a computer >>screen and cast your vitriol on our servers. \_ It seems to me that a "blacklist" campaign based on a flame war over a text file would have the main result of causing people to think that Berkeley CS grads are raving lunatics. \- look i am getting fed up with this "out of context" comment. i have "released" essentially all the context. at this point you have to claim people lack comprehensio$at this point you have to claim people lack comprehension or intelligence. because what they are NOT lacking are the bits and the bytes. the only think i didnt make public is mr. mckee last reply to me, because it seems like in that case he sort of asked me not to make it public. is "being a pain" and sarcasm in the evergrowing lists of sorryable offenses? i shall now enjoy my iftar chicken. --psb \_ I only say out of context because not every email was posted there (I'm almost certain I had 2-3 more replies to you than the one I saw). And Some innane comments you made were: *While we respect your right to be a complete troll and to voice your > do you know what troll means? just curious. *there might be an 'easier' solution to them. > we might even call it "the final solution". happy belated yom kippur. There was also another one, but I don't want to bother to find it in my emails. -mrauser \_ Are you saying you *want* Partha to publish every email that passed between him and members of the Politburo concerning the motd policy change? And that would satisfy in your mind the question whether amckee was quoted out of context? Is this an official Politburo position? \_ Thankyou for scewing my words. I said that it was out of context because not all the emails were published, it was not a request for him to publish them. I was the one who originally told him I was fine with him publishing them, but I would prefer he not, just because it will create more and more spam (of which I don't intend to reply) but he is free to post any emails he wishes (unless in that email amckee asked him to not post it). -mr \_ It seems somewhat disingenuous to on one hand not to want psb to publish all the hand to not allow psb to publish all the emails and on the other hand castigate him as "quoting out of context" for not publishing all the emails. \- The above quotes are (already) included at: \- The above quotes are included at: http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA The only psb-pburo email not included there is one sent to me after the above quote [and thus arguably not relevant to assessing my state of mind and intentions writing the above]. I certainly would be happy to reciprocally trade your right to "release" all of my email if I have the same right with the pburo emails. The only email not on the site above is this one: From amckee@berkeley.edu Sat Oct 15 14:39:04 To: "Partha S. Banerjee CC: politburo@csua.berkeley.edu which ends with a post script saying he did not give me persmission to share his emails. which certainly was not my impression and i leave it to the spectators to judge that for themselves. i personally think it was courteous for me to ask. i think i should have unilateral right to share email sent to me about me in his official capacity as the csua president. So if mr. mckee wants to "relese" me w.r.t. to the last email, then we can truely say the record is complete and people can make their own decisions. --psb \_ The decision I've made is that both psb and amckee are idiots and should get a life outside of motd. -neutral guy \- i have a lot of free time during ramadan. khudah hafiz. --psb ramadan. --psb  2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40120 Activity:nil 10/16 are people really getting sorried for hurting politburo's feelings in email? \_ In motd. amckee sorried one person and threatened to sorry at least one more. That was just Saturday. \_ I'm an alumnus who has donated to the hardware fund, and likes the MOTD the way it is, not that that seems to matter. I also just read amckee's e-mails to psb. - Why should I donate anymore if there really is a chance my account could be taken away? - Why should I donate anymore when the money is incompetently spent on hardware that doesn't work with BSD? - [Deleted entry about hardware purchasing incompetence and BSD, since anyone can make that mistake. And I appreciate all the officers' and VP's hard work.] Sorry I missed the whole brouhaha, but some clarifying statements from the Politburo seem in order.  2005/10/16-18 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40118 Activity:kinda low 10/16 OK, plea from me (and a lot of others, I'm sure): write what you want to, who cares, that's the whole point, but when you've written it, please please please just take a second to read it through and ask yourself, "is tihs teh ghei or n0es?" I'm not asking anyone to self-censor based on whether they write stupid shit, no matter what they're trying to get across, but just ask yourself that quick question. It doesn't take long, is great practice for life, and helps save put off the point at which we reach peak byte. -John \_ Well, amckee has mistakenly sorried one person (since remedied), and he has threatened to sorry at least one more (me), for content that he finds objectionable. In my case, because I quoted him self-describing his role in the Politburo. Does this sound like a person can "write what you want"? - tse \_ Yes, it does. They're not sending you to fucking siberia, they're threatening to turn off an email account. I'll write exactly what the fuck I want until the minute they turn off my account, and so should you. \_ Yes, it does. The whole discussion is moronic on the scale of galaxies (both the fact that some measures like this have been proposed at all and peoples' reaction to them.) Look up "tempest in a teapot." Threatening to sorrying alumni (or anyone) for stupid shit like this is about as mature as saying "you go home now, you can't play with my toys anymore. The only proper reaction is to just leave. It's a fucking _account_, and if someone doesn't want to let you play with their toys anymore, guess what, it's a nice day outside. -John \_ It's more than an account. Some of us old farts have been around here for decades. soda is the occasional meetingplace where get to poke each other and say hi. That is why CSUA has been described as a social club as opposed to a hardcore techie org. Nice as it is outside, I'd rather hang here and piss off tse and psb. Feel the love! \_ Alas, since I refused to toe the line amckee drew for me by continuing to criticize him on MOTD, I am afraid I will likely be sorried shortly after the next Politburo meeting. It has been 19 years since my first cc account. I was hoping to make it 20 before I call it quits. - tse But at least I will be sorried following the official process rather than at the whim of amckee. I will probably count that as a small pyrrhic victory. - tse \_ This is all frightfully stupid. Amckee wrote some self-indulgent, stupid mails, psb was being difficult as always, and the CSUA moves on. Stop being such a drama queen. -John (only 15 years, alas.)  2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40114 Activity:high 10/16 Dear fellow working alumni. I have begun circulating a negative networking blacklist in my company. I am making sure amckee does not get hired. I work at Intel Corporation and I've passed the list to my friends some who work at Yahoo and Google. They've also begun circulating it to the HR depts in other companies as well, including the less well know companies. Please circulate the list throughout Silicon Valley and tell me which companies you've passed the list to. thx. -alum of 1990, Intel Verification, SC \_ I left Intel in 99 as an Eng7, at the age of 24, ranked Critical Intel Asset. I'm sure your opinion, however, is Critical Intel Asshat. I'm sure your opinion, however, is equally valid. -amckee \_ Hey! tjb's back! -geordan \_ wow, intel verification AND head of HR. impressive. (not amckee) \_ This is the reason that brett was temporarily sorried. We will be discussing the issue on Monday. The decision will be at the discretion of the full politburo, not just me. As much as you may disagree with my opinions, this grossly oversteps what is an acceptable response to having such a difference of opinion. I'm less concerned with the affect that this has on me, my resume speaks for itself, but most politburo are just undergrads, CS students who just signed up to have fun and learn a bit about running a group. They should never feel that, should they try to implement a controversial decision, that they could be subjected to such a grossly intimidating and caustic repurcussion. This may be acceptable in 'real politics', but we're just students, and this is just a student organization. The palor of fear that this will cast over politburo will prevent it from enacting decisions that may be necessary for its survival, however controversial. Should students know that this might happen, the even worse affect is that it might prevent them from even joining the ranks of politburo. This action very realistically threatens the success of the organization and the stability of the politburo. We are not a full political body, we are not your senators, your representatives, or your president. We should never have to deal with this level of intimidation. Call it censorship, call it draconian, call it what you will - but we live in an insular world and these are not things that most students should have to face. -amckee \_ Anyone making a serious squish decision based on an external web site, esp. one that is known to be sucky, is an idiot. \_ it looks like you've been successfully trolled. \_ Those with an opinion on this matter, or any matter, are always welcome to attend politburo meetings. We give more weight to the concerns of current students, admittedly, but we will take your insight into consideration. Many of you have faced problems similar to the ones we've faced, and constructive feedback and wisdom is always welcome. For those that have a personal problem with me, the appropriate way to deal with that is by talking to me. I suspect our differences are not nearly as great as the emotion of this motd indicates. Sorry for being long again, John. -amckee \_ I don't think John's point is about length but more to do with succintness. -mice \_ Upon speaking with Brett, this is not attributable to him. kchang's logs were wrong, probably not an uncommon occurance. Part of why I had not brought this to the MOTD was that I wanted to hear from Brett. However, someone else felt it important to mention here. I have unsorried him and am sorry for any inconvenience. However, as a point of clarification for whomever did post this, the damage you felt that I may have done to the CSUA is far diminished by the extent of your actions. I'll only be in office for another couple months, and other officers may have different opinions. However, the real 'cultural shift' in the CSUA is now almost certainly attributable to you. If your goal was to supress dissent, to coerce agreement, and to bully your view into an organization that you are no longer a part of - you have likely succeeded. Politburo may no longer feel comfortable enacting certain decisions. At a minimum, we now know better than to try and explain ourselves and our views, as it just opens us up to personal attacks and retribution. This will be the last post I make to the MOTD, it's \_ Can I have your stuff? -geordan just not worth it to me to fight with you. I fully welcome the insight and opinions people have about how we're running this organization, but it will be more effective if you can come to a meeting or email us. This has turned into a gossip-fueled hate fest, and right now I feel pretty ashamed to have anything to do with this organization. The optimism I had in trying to find ways to make student's lives here a bit better is rapidly fading, and if all that's going to happen is that they're going to grow up into people anything at all like the minority of you who have made this such an evil place, then I just don't see the purpose. Good luck with your MOTD. -amckee \_ Haven't you threatened to sorry people because of their emails to politburo? That sucks. \_ For the record, I did not write the above posting. -brett \_ He did (or "didn't do" as it turns out) something so horrible it was necessary to sorry him before getting his side of the story? \_ Man, amckee is serious about this sorry business. He threatened to sorry me when he thought I quoted his infamous self-portrayal as "resident foobar". BTW, it's not likely I'll be in a position to hire amckee (I don't hire sw guys in general, though I might for dv I suppose), but I would certainly advise against hiring if his name crossed my desk. From my personal dealings with him (just one logged write conversation, to be fair), he seems to have problems controling his temper and he's probably a pain to work with. - tse \_ Wow, this is really lame. Whomever did post it needs to get a brain. I mean, are you trying to force motd logging? --PM \_ PM: I think the actual lesson here is different. I bet many people are silently thinking "I would not want to hire this guy based on his writings" without putting those thoughts into the MOTD. And this the the guy who wants us to "trust him" over the judicious use of the anonymity logs? \_ Well, amckee is trying to portray this as alums threatening the politburo, but I think it's just amckee. There's enough from MOTD and from his emails to hang him. \_ What triggered amckee's temper tantrum? Just Partha's ramblings? \_ I'd bet dollars to donuts that's *exactly* what OP is trying to do.  2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40113 Activity:low 10/16 So when do we start the underground rebel motd? \_ http://csua.org/motd ?  2005/10/15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40111 Activity:nil 10/14 Michael Rauser wrote on csua@csua : I apologise for the recent spam to csua@csua. It is intended as a news : mailing list (minutes, official announcements, etc.) and not as a : discussion forum. I have altered the list to make it moderated, requiring : posts to be approved before going out to the full list. \_ This is a marked and until now unannounced change in the nature of csua@csua. When was advance notice given of this change of csua@csua to a moderated list? --Jon \_ The ua part of the 'csua' title means that the undergrads don't need to get permission from alum for everything. --darin \_ "It's [the CSUA] not a democracy. We're democratically elected, but once in office we have near complete authority to implement the policies that we see fit. Think communist russia ..." -amckee, CSUA President \_ and if it's not obvious, the above was not posted by me and was taken out of context. thx psb. -amckee \_ Could you explain how the quote was taken out of context? \_ This is the organization that was left to us by our faithful alumni. We do not have a congress, a judiciary system, or any vestiges of democracy within the typical power structure. Quite honestly, I'm not aware of any student group here that's run differently. At some point in the past, the CSUA was your organization to run and shape as you saw fit. I'm sure you each had issues that you felt were important to deal with, things that needed to be chanrged relative to tradition, and so forth. I'm sure each of you also would have resented it had a group of people who have no awareness of the current organization's culture and needs kept expecting deferrence to their ideas and beliefs about how the organization should be run. The students, at some point, trusted you to run the organization to the best of your abilities. Right now, the students trust us to do that. We may fuck up, we may piss people off, but these are our mistakes to make - just like they were yours, at one point. We care about the alumni community and feel that they contribute a lot that is valuable to the CSUA, but our charter is clearly the service of current undergraduates. We would love to make alumni happy, but as i'm sure each of you can see from these threads, that's obviously impossible. In the end, we will always chose the path that we think is in the best interest of current students. I'm sure you each would have expected the same, when you were students. As it is, this server is barely utilized by current students. This issue has comprised probably 50+ manhours of politburo time - time that has directly detracted from what we could have been doing to help out current students. We continue to spend thousands of dollars on this hardware, when the main reason it needs upgrading is to cater to the ever growing alumni ranks. The donations, sadly, are a far way from making this environment self-supporting. Quite simply, this whole server infrastructure costs this organization more in terms of time and money than current students reap from it. Again, we do care to keep a close alumni community, but a bit more appreciation of the efforts we go to would also be nice. And a bit of understanding that, this really is -our- organization right now, to make better or to fuck up, as it once was yours. We welcome your insight, but we really resent the sense of entitlement that many of you think we owe you. That alumni have accounts here is at the generosity of the CSUA, and directly against UC Berkeley policies. There is no current desire to change this generosity, but a bit of perspective on your part would be nice. We don't owe you explanations of changes we make to our boxes, we don't need need to justify every decision we make. When we do, it's because we value your insight and wisdom, but don't expect it to be binding. I know many of you disagree strongly with our choices, but the students have entrusted us to shepherd this organization and you just have to trust that we have the best interests of the CSUA at heart, even if you disagree with our actions. -amckee \_ Ok uhm yeah. So anyway, if the ever growing ranks of alums are a burden, how about just booting them all? If the number of current students is low, how much active recruiting does the CSUA do these days? Do they still do donut runs at project times? Sponsor and advertise tournament events? Go into freshman classes at the start of each semester and tell the gathered hordes the CSUA exists and why they should join? And once these people join, well, uhm, to be blunt, what do they get from the CSUA anyway? I see two things from out here in alum-land: fantastic tech help/tips from top notch industry pros from a wide variety of fields and access to jobs they'd otherwise never hear about, much less skip HR and go straight to a hiring manager. Passion is good. Directed passion is better. I assume everyone gave some pretty speach prior to being elected to politburo full of promises. Did any of that stuff happen? Mission accomplished? Honestly, I don't actually really care all that much about any of this stuff but let's get some perspective. \_ Yes, we do donut runs (as do other groups now), yes we go into classes at the start of the term, yes we do helpsessions and shill our name, and yes the ranks are still low. The current breed of CS student is unlike what you were used to - many are completely apathetic about student groups, many don't identify as CS nerds, and many haven't even watched Monty Python. It's a mainstream field now and the people here have a lot less in common than the CS nerds did when I was younger (I'm 30 and started with this whole internet/cs stuff over 20 years ago) I do not doubt at all \_ Are you related to Trevor J. Buckingham? that students -could- leverage a lot from alumni, but right now they don't. They don't read motd, they don't really use Soda, and mostly they just come to our free food events. It's a problem that many politburos recently have had to face. We welcome suggestions, of course, but things are definitely different than they used to be. People join now to hang out on our couches, use our office/lab machines, and make friends. I'm trying to bring in more speakers (hopefully some alumni) to try and give various talks. Hell, maybe a panel of people that graduated 10 years ago could come back and talk about life after Berkeley. Right now, though, none of this whole mess that we call Soda or MOTD is much of a benefit to current students. And, quite frankly, that's unlikely to change. It's just no longer the sort of service that is necessary. The entire login service could go away, and most people here would never even notice. No, there are no plans to do so, but when the politburo looks at things to put its attention and money into, the minimal value this -currently- offers students is a factor. And jobs typically come into jobs@ now. Our current focus is much more on face-to-face services, since that's the only thing that seems of value to people now, anyways. -amckee \_ Whoa! I've seen what's coming into jobs@. That is not at all the same as real jobs. An announcement from some consultancy that they're recruiting is *nothing* like having an alum hand your resume to someone and say "hire this person". If you get nothing else out of your time at Berkeley, get this: networking is more important than your gpa, major, or anything else. And yes, it's true I haven't set foot in years and I'm out of touch, but if politburo is so in touch and active then why can't they get other students interested? This has nothing to do with Monty Python. I'm not even sure why you mention that. shrug. \_ How much more donation do you need? There is no information as to how much is needed, how much has been donated, what the money was spent on, etc. No detailed accounting is being asked for here, just a rough breakdown. Otherwise, how would we know how much to donate. - soda donor \_ I know I'm going to get flamed by mrauser for saying this, but the largest issues facing the CSUA right now are not cash related. What we need more than money is a way to get students more involved with their school and major, to introduce them to better coding practices and non-academic technologies, to provide tutoring and help to a breed of students that may never have seen a command line - on UNIX or Windows. Basically, we need to help build a community of current students that is as vibrant as what those who used to be here knew. (I still think we can do it while acting professional and mature, but enough of that.) I don't have the specific budget in front of me for last year, but we requested something like$4000 last year in hardware expenses (but received less) and around $1000 this year (which we received). Although the money is important and does make it easier to buy random upgrades or components, the bigger need is just 'more time'. New Soda has been largely held up due to lack of this precious resource, not cash. And, since so few current students use this resource, it's hard to justify spending too much time on it (for those of us in pburo), when we could use this time to try and coordinate speakers, corporate info-sessions, help-sessions, etc. The better donation, in all honest, is the wisdom, time, and insight that each of you have - whether it's to help the root staff debug an issue, come talk to the students about a topic either technical or pragmatic, or basically help foster a sense of community outside of the insular confines of Soda and the MOTD. There hasn't been a lot that we haven't been able to do, due to lack of cash, but there has been a lot that we haven't been able to do, due to lack of time. Hence the proposition to -slightly- expand the size of the politburo. But, to keep mrauser from killing me, we love cash too. (cough) - amckee \_ I had a longer post, but I suspect it was wasted breath, so I rescued some precious motd bits. -mice \- ms amckee suggests i did not provide sufficient context. pls see http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA for fuller context. "by my words you will know me". it is odd to see the motd discussion turn into an alumni issue.  2005/10/15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40108 Activity:nil 10/14 Many thanks to jrleek for being the catalyst for creating a brand new era of CSUA. \_ 2nd that. jrleek is a good man. \_ Now lets go invade a University that had nothing to do with the motd. \- this is a politburo decision. do you blame PAT or BUSHCO for the state of the country? [choosing the appropriate PAT is left as a limited degree of freedom]. --psb  2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40106 Activity:moderate 10/15 psb: At least two out of five Politburo members are ... well, just being undergrads. They're trying, but surely you didn't expect anything more? http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA \- 1. it may be unfair to tar the entire pburo with the mckee brush. i wonder which pburo member voted against the madness? 2. i am not sure they are "trying". see e.g. "I honestly couldn't possibly care less about people complaining of losing anonymity ..." -amckee [home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy] [http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy] in case you believe i am "quoting out of context" it was unfortune the rationale for deanonymizing the motd was not more clearly stated and various issues got entangled [such as the liability issue and the unwelcoming environment/participation issue] but the the csua president can justly be taken to task for framing it in these adventitious terms and attacking the out-to-lunch, spoiled, overly- indulged, narrow-minded, self-interested alumni. 3. so i dont expect overly deep thinking about say free speech in the abstract, but crazy stuff like "psb is a notorious spammer and hoser for mailing the csua mailing list about a political matter" seems just nuts. deeper into some of the threads on the web directory above, you cant help speculate what it would be like to have ms. mckee as a colleague. i wonder if ms mckee is a famous turntablist/bboy? \- And I can't even imagine what it must be like to work with someone so obviously disconnected from reality and rational thinking. Yes, making the MOTD trackable is MADNESS. Crazy! OoOOooH! Halloween! Bats! Scary shit! Are you even capable of perspective? I'm afraid you're the one that sounds 'out to lunch'. But please, feel free to libel me. I'd love nothing more than than have an excuse to remove you on sufficient 'legal' grounds to make even you happy. =) Have a nice day, I'm done with talking to you ms. banerjee. I'm sure your friends over at slashdot could use some of your attention. \- you know, i probably read slashdot less than 95% of the people reading this. isnt ./ sort of focused on AssOS? \- Well, I began to wonder about this when you wrote: "[mrauser]s more level headed and egalitarian than I am. My opinion is much more admittedly draconian. I'm used to being a corporate manager and overseeing teams of 30+ engineers scattered across the world. That doesn't exactly work with the consensus view of management, so I go for autocratic. (It's okay, you can say it, I'm used to being the resident asshole on the team - but at least shit gets done.)" [again, context is at: home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy] http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Articles/CSUA/7.not-a-democracy] BTW, I appreciate your letting me quote this thread. It makes things much easier.  2005/10/15-16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:40103 Activity:kinda low 10/15 Whatever happens with the motd debate, someone made a point below that I hope doesn't get lost: " If you get nothing else out of your time at Berkeley, get this: networking is more important than your gpa, major, or anything else. " I just wanted to put this up as a really valuable piece of advice, and I hope undergrads take it to heart. If you're going into "the real world", this is very true most of the time. -John \_ Thanks. --Wrote that anon but since it was anon it must be a troll and should be dismissed out of hand. ;-) \_ Out of the four jobs I've had in the last 8 years, all of them were at least partly attributable to networking. -mice \_ This is true. I got my excellent first job thanks to networking, and I got 2 sodans jobs because I knew them. -eric \_ yeah. I've gotten every job I've had because of networking, and most of my freelancing work comes from soda or ex-coworker contacts. I wish I'd known this when I was in college, I would have done things a lot differently, i.e. going to professor office hours starting my freshman year, going to more student events, etc.  2005/10/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40090 Activity:nil 10/14 So, amckee and mrauser think that a csua web forum would be a good idea. If fact, they think it would surpass the motd in popularity. I disagree because CSUA discussion forums don't have much draw. There's no theme except that all the people on them are CSUA members. However, what if we had a web forum and the subjects of the current active threads were displayed on login (as the motd used to be)? We could even have them display on the lounge machines on login as xterm as an ad to join the CSUA. -jrleek \_ They have valid points. Kids today don't value their CS accounts like the old farts. They prefer to use yahoo, gmail, POP3, and what not, bypassing motd completely. Secondly, motd has been in a steadily declining state ever since paolo disabled "more /etc/motd.public" for default .login. Most of the new soda users don't even know about wall or motd. I predict the death of wall and motd within 5 years. With new user monitoring mechanism in place, it may even speed up the process. Your goal to make motd more civil is a very noble goal, and I completely support it. However, unless you want to see motd dying, you should also concentrate your efforts on getting new members. \_ I agree with you, but politburo doesn't. I've already had the "let's make the motd display on login again" conversation with them 2 or 3 times. So, the above was my attempt at a compromise. -jrleek  2005/10/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40082 Activity:very high 10/13 I asked a bit earlier how many of you angry motd-ers are actual CSUA \_ Who's angry? This is a non-issue. The CSUA politburo should do whatever the active CSUA members (i.e. enrolled undergrads) vote to do. We're just excercising the privilege of the ancient to smirk condescendingly on the sillinesses that the puppies come up with :-) -John voters. I am guessing very few are. The reality is this is not your machine, and this is not your organization, anymore. The current students in charge are free to run things however they wish. As someone so bluntly put it below, "the decision stands and is not debatable". I do find it amusing that after all the alum donations to spiff up the place, we are then told off so cavalierly. \- raising the matter of "are you a current ucb undergrad" might be relevant if the issue was about voting or representation, but if it is about ideas, and they are making reasonable points rather than just claiming "i am older and smarter; you are young and naive" then you should ignore where they ideas are coming from but just address the ideas themselves if they have merit. if the values of the older members are that much out to lunch how can you justify operating under a consitution hardly changed from somethign they wrote ... or are you claiming they somehow had your values when in school but then become unmoored and unhinged upon leaving the evans/sloda/cory environs. \_ I don't know, another question worth asking is "How many of the angry motd-ers donated?" I did, and I pretty much agree with \_ "Did you donate?" is the CSUA's "you haven't served" -John \_ Of course, "you haven't served" is occasionally also the CSUA's "you haven't served". -gm politburo. Although, actually, perhaps a different experiment would be interesting. Part of the problem currently is the anonymity differential. Things only got really nasty around jblack when kchang's diff exposed who it was posting the freeper links. Then some blow hard starting harrasing him anonymously. If anonymity had been guaranteed, at least THAT wouldn't have happened. -jrleek \_ Check your crystal ball again, that wasn't my post. The decision \_ mea culpa was debated extensively (see the pages upon pages in the minutes) and it saddens me that the anonimity was abused so badly that it will help to remove it. I won't monitor you if you want to make your own world writable ~myname/sleezepit.motd where you can slander, insult and threaten as you please. I think the csua motd should be a place where people can post and not be completely hounded. When exactly did you donate by the way? -mrauser \- what is the rationale for not monitoring ~myname/sleezepit.motd but monitoring /etc/motd? --psb \_ If you really need to ask this you are SO dense. Why do you think I would possibly want to be responsible for hateful comments on the csua's message of the day? You should probably just go think on it, this isn't worthy of a response. -mrauser \- ok i am a moron. tell me how you will deal with the following: Anonymous A challenges john@soda to a GUN DUEL in ~psb/motd.sleaze. Then PSB posts "Hey John has been challeneged to a GUN DUEL in ~psb/motd.sleaze!" to the motd.public ... this is either signed by psb or "discovered" to be psb via the motd.log. questions presented: 1. is psb liable for something? if so, what? is he reponsible for the threat or just running a non-anonymous forum for thraets? so if psb could find the original threatener A, is he then ok? or is he guilty of helping out the threat? if psb is guilty for helping ut the threat by cross posting it, then isnt something who doesnt delete an obnoxious comment in the motd also responsible for "helping to spread disharmony on sloda"? \_ hello, in the context of a threat you may not be liable [ not 100% sure, maybe there is some way to argue accomplice/conspiracy ] in the context of defamation you could be liable b/c you republished. 2. does the politburo not feel responsible in this case since the official motd only contains a POINTER to the inflammatory content? 3. maybe i am a moron, but it seems if the reason to for the heavy handed intervention is stop threats then this should extent to any reasonable public forums on sloda. it certainly seems like i should not even be allowed to advertise my evil motd in the official sleaze free zone. although if i am not allowed to post my pointer to ~psb/motd.sleaze, i have to ask can i post a link to http://sleaze.psb.org with the exact same discussion? ... so it IS ok to post a "sleazy pointer" as long as it points out of CSUA space? if that is not fine either, why is it permissable to post offensive links at all? again what is the criteria of "bad" ... offensive/ obscene? child porn? emotionally damaging comments? [like calling somebody a clown? what if you like clowns?] physical threats? what if i just post "i would like to meet you in a boxing ring"? \_ Partha, it's "GUN DUEL", not "a GUN DUEL". -John \- funny you should say that. --psb  2005/10/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40079 Activity:high 10/14 Dear Politburo: I'd like to request that in the future, ALL the names of donors be made public as to minimize the potential conflict of interest in the future. Currently things go on in csua and we don't know anything about it until decisions are already made. There needs to be accountability via public auditing. Please make the donation and financing information public. Until that happens, there is no more donations from me. I ask all donors to do the same. Thanks. -alum who donated$200, you know who I am \_ How donations worked at my last job was that a donor could specifically ask to be anonymous. Otherwise names could be used in print. It seems in bad taste to print amounts, unless a donation is particularly large and merits special appreciation. That can be done in other ways, however, such as including some- thing like, "Donations from these members were particularly generous, and deserve extra appreciation." \_ This is in the process, the only reason I don't have logs readily availible is that I have been backlogged on work. In the future there will be a mechanism to more easily see the status of csua finances. In regard to disclosing the names of donors, I'm not sure that will be the policy, but I think we can disclose the amounts of each donation (along with all the other money allocations). -mrauser \- dear op: you should post "i donated" to the motd and then get somebody to complain and then have that motd entry deanonymized. mrauser: so what is the rationale to have donation be anon by default but have the motd entries be non-anon. \_ MOTD: Public forum Donation: Private funds As mrauser said below, the reason we don't post donator information is that we do not want any of this to turn into a "my opinion is more important because I donated more" war. \_ Why not? Seems like an excellent fundraiser-- provided you don't make any actual guarantees of letting someone's opinion matter more. After all, isn't this how the US congress and senate work? If it's good enough for them why not for the CSUA? --PeterM When we finally bring Soda Mark VII live and I send out the grand email announcing such, I will post the names of those who donated, but I will not post amounts. - jvarga \_ This being the most I have posted to the motd in a day... ever, I'm going to be brief. When there are monitary things involved, I would rather err on the side of anonimity. I wouldn't want a "who's donation is bigger" war, and there is no need at all for the public to know WHO donated. Its not meant to be a blame game or a "I've donated so my opinion matters" situation. Thats my rationale for donations being not freely publicly disclosed (exactly why do you need to know who donated?). As for reasons why the motd would be non anonymous, read the minutes, but we wish to discern who posts overt threats on our motd. -mrauser \- are you suggesting it would be censure-worthy for a donor to say "i donated $x" publicly [say in the motd or wall]? how about chowing all the binaries in /csua/bin lest somebody try to throw his weight around because they installed COOL SOFTWARE on sloda? maybe we should make it illegal to keep WALL WARRIOR stats in case new users should fall under the pernicious influence of top WALL WARRIORS. maybe they will SELL THEIR VOTES in return for ANCIENT WALL WARRIOR SECRETS.  2005/10/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:40063 Activity:very high 10/13 Now that we're making a user-tracking, totalitarian motd in the future, I want to use all the remaining freedom to insult people. Whoever proposed this idea, fuck you. Paolo is an ass and all heil German John. Viva la libertarian-style motd!!! \_ What is wrong with root having a way to track who posted what when someone complains about inappropriate behavior on the motd? Why is everyone complaining? The fact that Politburo has had to make the decision to put a system in place to keep a log is not a symptom of a "totalitarian regime," but rather a forum where people's blatant disrespect for each other caused a problem that had to be addressed. You will still have your anonymity so you can troll away at each other, but root will finally have the ability to look at a private log IF AND WHEN the need arises to take care of issues that get out of hand. No one will be monitoring the log, lording over you with the wiggling finger. Life will continue on as normal. But finally, those anonymous cowards who use unconventional motd posting means to threaten others will have to check themselves knowing that if they make a real threat and someone complains, that there will be judgment on their not-so-anonymous self. The only people complaining about root having logs are those who are the people doing the threatening and are worried that they cannot continue to do so anonymously. Get a life, grow up, and be civil to each other (insult each other all you want, we don't care. Just don't cross the line and make real threats.). Sheesh. - jvarga \_ The problem as I see it isn't so much the tracking mechanism, but the vagueness of the standard for breaking anonymity in a forum where some pretty hot-topic issues are often addressed. I'm rather uncomfortable knowing that we are giving power to tantrumy admins without any real limitations or clear standards of application. Honestly, don't our stewards have more important things to do than chase after lackwit trolls? -mice \_ If all they're really doing is logging this shit somewhere, I don't think it will matter. What the cowards who like censorship fail to understand is how many of the trolls have the personality that tends to tell people to go fuck themselves straight to their face. Overall, I don't think the level of debate is really that much lower here than at the national level anyway. Don't forget we recently had the Vice President of the United States tell a senator to go fuck himself, on record, in the senate. \_ It isn't about trolls. Trolling is one of the 'fun' things about anonymity. If you're going to get ballistic when someone posts a random link you deserve what you get. I see the problem being with people who instead of saying "fuck you" (which is just stupid), make threats to life, limb, reputation, etc. At that point there needs to be recourse, otherwise the CSUA is just providing a means to attempt to ruin another person with no way for the victim to even know who is doing it much less have a chance of stopping it. Trolling is posting random stupid links. Going after someone in a personal way is not trolling. That is harassment at a minimum and shouldn't be tolerated. This comes back to the question raised several weeks ago about fresh blood on the motd. Why would any new person want to step into such an environment? And why can't we have an environment better than the rest of the net or the Senate floor, or where ever? Just because another place sucks is no reason we have to emulate that. \_ I think you summarised the reasoning (if not improved upon it) during the meeting. We were thinking that it really wasn't a constructive thing for people to be abusing the anonimity to threaten others. This is absolutely not intended to be a "politburo intends to be the thought police" system. The logs will also be root-only accessible and we're toying with putting in a system such that you need two members of root to access them. -mrauser \_ Just out of silly curiosity, has this happened to any serious extent, has anyone been affected physically by this, or is it a case of "won't someone think of the children"? -John \_ What benefit is it to the CSUA to have the MOTD anonymous? (Unlike pretty much every other form of electronic communication). Is having wall logs "thinking of the children"? People should be accountable for what they say. -tom \_ Do you mean, "Has anyone not gotten involved with the motd because it is overly caustic?" If so, Yes. \- non-anon wont solve the causticity problem \_ Sure, but what was pp asking? \_ No, has anyone been attacked/gotten in a fight/whatever, because of what was said on the motd and complained, or or has the CSUA been told off by a roving gang of UC lawyers, or is this just a case of "well no, but it _could_ happen"? Is there a binding definition of "harassment" from any authority that governs the CSUA? I'm just curious... -John \_ People no longer post here. Isn't that enough? How many more have to be chased off? Just because they didn't file some sort of 'official' complaint with politburo, it is ok they left after enough abuse? Why does someone have to be beaten with a bat for it to matter? \_ I seem to recall people complaining about and leaving the wall too. There can never be enough chasing. We must chase unto the hundreds, the thousands, the hundreds of thousands. They shall all run before the mighty motd. Kneel before motd. (anyway, isn't it ironic that in the jblack case, the only reason he became a "threat target" is that other people de-anonymized him in the first place?) \_ From the minutes: "Some people want to make [motd] semi-non-anymonous. We don't want to be in trouble with libel, slander, threats, etc. ... the people whoa re being attacked are not complaining about it, it's not really a problem! the message was just a troll ... we are sorta sanctioning this simply by keeping it there and not responding to these kind of threats" I read this to mean Politburo (4 out of 5) got freaked out about the GUN DUEL references, even though it was a troll. Could be wrong. \_ BUD DAY doesn't like your tone. \_ Not the gun duel, jblack hater guy threatening anonymous harrassment and abuse. /--/ http://csua.com/?entry=39902 I suppose it's good they haven't heard about GUN DUEL yet ... \_ Man, can't two consenting adults even talk about organizing GUN DUEL without everyone getting all freaky about it? If it was jblack hater being a weenie, and jblack complaining, that's one thing, but I don't seem to recall either of the parties involved in GUN DUEL raising a stink. -John \_ "the people whoa re being attacked are not complaining about it ... we are sorta sanctioning this simply by keeping it there [etc.]" \_ So the people who are being attacked are not complaining. Perhaps they get the joke? It's the freakin' motd. I barely take the news links seriously. \_ They complained. They up and left, duh. Just because they didn't file an official complaint and fill out some paper work, you think it's ok they're not here any more? The motd is enriched by them leaving? Sheesh. \_ And that benefits the CSUA...how? -tom \_ Allows those who have a minority, maginalized, or unpopular opinion to speak out. Allows people to judge the opinion separately from judging the person. And allows yermom to accept all the action she can take without you feeling bad about it. \_ We can have an anonymous motd without the assault and abuse. I'm totally in favor of what you're saying right here, but I'm totally opposed to allowing people to abuse their anonymous privs to attack other people. Post your troll links, post your minority opinion, but don't expect to get away with direct personal threats and assault be it virtual or physical. \_ I don't care about user tracking as long as our stupid libertarian stops trolling and nuking the motd. \- anonymity enables discussion of certain topics that may not be discussed non-anonymously. non-anonymity, as the wall very nicely proves, will not make things warm and fuzzy. --psb \_ The Delaware S. Ct. just ruled on the issue of anon speech on the internet. If anyone is interested the opinion is at: http://www.internetcases.com/library/cases/2005-10-05-doe_v_cahill.pdf Of interest may be the cts assertion that the constitutional rights of Internet users to speak anonymously must be "carefully safeguarded." \- this is about whether the sloda motd should be anonymous or not. you can support the possibility of anon speech without being obligated to provide a particular channel. although it is certainly true there are blurry areas ... like can a town deny a speech permit to somebody because it will cost thousands of dollars in police overtime [stipulating that this isnt a sham excuse]. does it matter whether it is an anti-BUSHCO parade or a neo-nazi parade [see skokie case] or say a parade to laude the virtues of IKEA or INNNOUT BURGER. i think one of the more interesting free speech cases is PRUNEYARD v. ROBBINS. i am not suggesting you are sugesting a legal obligation here, but i think it is clear "the csua" can do what it wants with the motd, just as i think it is clear it is clownheaded to put these restrictions on the motd. now if somebody else wanted to created /foo/bar/non-clownlike-motd-for-non-softheaded-adults which was anonymous and "the CSUA" smacked that down without a pretty compelling interest ... that would seem to be to be pretty suspect. \_ Is the politburo committed to monitoring just motd or any world writable file which may be used for motd-like purposes? \- i think they are committed to being clownlike. and to AssOS 2.6, apparently. \_ To be fair, these are a bunch of 20-year olds making political and technical decisions. How high should our expectations be? \_ They are 20 yr olds at Cal; we should expect a bit more than latest 1337est. \_ I would guess that almost all of us were once 20-year old students at Cal. I was one too. I think I calibrated my expectations appropriately. And we are not moving to linux because it's the latest l337est; we're linux because the vp couldn't get bsd running. I calibrated my expectations based on that too (not so much that he couldn't get it up but rather he's unable to determine root cause). \_ The current VP, being completely inept in all ways, shape, and form, did not try to get freebsd running. He came in, did nothing, got chastized for doing nothing, then suddenly embarked on some sort of religious crusade of "I'm going to try and get people to stop calling me inept so I'm going to try and get new soda working." I have had new soda, for the most part, working since February. I've had logins up, home directories mounted, and about 90% of the other stuff working. Brett and seidl were great and got apache and list stuff working, and there was/is only a small list of stuff left to do. However, despite my monthly "this is is an explicit list of all there is left to do that I don't know how to do," Politburo, and the VP especially, claim that I don't tell anyone anything. C'mon! I explicitly said "anyone that can help, please email me and I'll enable your login." Instead I get amckee telling everyone that nothing works because he cannot log in (I never enabled his login because he threw a temper tantrum and refused to help). Anyway, to get back to the point, we tried loading up new soda with Freebsd 6 this last weekend to see if the new kernel fixes the issues we had installing 5.3, but unfortunately it did not. Mbh decided to load Gentoo onto the system just to play around and when it booted decided that he was going to push to make Gentoo the new OS for soda since the current system was "unusable" to him. So, despite the page-long list of reasons that I provided as to why changing soda to Gentoo would be a Very Bad Thing(tm), he still wants to go forward with it because he thinks it is cool to compile the OS from scratch. The \_ So it is latest 1337est! Anyway if he really wants to do this, why doesn't he try OpenSolaris? At least it is meant for adults. -curmudgeon \_ You can compile freebsd from scratch too. guy wants to change soda's OS and claims that he is willing to deal with all the fun that comes from that, when he had to ask a few days ago how to find out when someone logged on last. Sorry about the ventness of this post, but I have been getting jerked around by the inept politburo for the past 2 months, dealing with lie after lie about me and am trying to fight for some semblence of rationality, but am getting tired of doing so. - jvarga \_ GO JVARGA GO! W00T! -John \_ From the meeting minutes I couldn't really figure out what the problem was other than it won't boot. BTW, any reason Linux was picked instead of say OpenSolaris? A friend of mine works on OpenSolaris, I could probably get him to help w/ installing it, &c. over winter break. The zones stuff could be useful on soda. \_ Why? They don't want your advice, and if you are there to help, you are expected to blindly execute their wishes. Do you really want to be their house nigger? \_ um? wow. \_ If you want to create ~wierdo/sleezepit.motd in your homedir, where you can slander, insult, and threaten anyone your welcome to do so according to me. The CSUA motd should be a place where new students won't instantly be scared off by the sheer immaturity and low level of dialogue which occurs there. -mrauser \_ I am not suggesting that the csua will be violating any fundamental right by monitoring the motd; the politburo can implement whatever policy it desires. However, I think that perhaps they should consider the fact that some very smart people feel that anon speech is impt. Re the suggestion that the motd scares people off - this isn't kindergarten; students admitted to cal ought to have sufficient critical thinking skills to identify inanity and ignore it (including perhaps this post). Some of us were ugs when the motd was far less civilized AND showed up by default; if we managed to survive viewing it on a daily basis, the current crop of kids can too. \- on reflection it is kind of interesting that the CSUA has not passed a policy decision that "we will be nice on the motd" but has directly gone to considering de-anonymizing the motd ... which should make you all particularly nervous ... since it seems like you are essentially relying on the "chilling effect" of being found out to condition behavior. ok say i call somebody a dumbass and now that can be conclusively tracked back to me ... am i in violation of csua policy? what policy am i in violation of? does it matter if the person i am calling a dumbass is not offended enough to "press charges"? what if i dont call him a dumbass but give a detail point by point discussion why he is wrong and this ends up being far more humiliating than a "mere" ad hominem? are only point-to-point insults of other sloda people fair game? what if somebody discusses outsourcing of programmers or back office stuff and suggests (all) indians are incompetent programmers or out to use your private tax info for identify theft type reasons? is that grounds to piece the veil of anonymity and smack somebody down? if youa re not even going to entertain the notion of the smackdown, what is the point of the ability to deanonymize? and if the smack down is on the table, what are the grounds. the solitary grounds i can think possibly for a smackdown is forging a post as the danhimal iff the danimal complains. say you call the poliburo "clowns", how many of the pburo would it take to mount a prosecution? 1? plurality? is it not ok to call them clowns in the motd, but ok on the wall? --psb <<<<<<< Other Changes Below ======= \_ Please don't un-anonymous the motd, my burgeoning troll farm will wither. :( -John  2005/10/3-5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39954 Activity:nil 10/3 A confession and an announcement. A few months ago I created an interface that allows other people to post on the motd. It actually started as a request from someone who said he wants to post anonymously. The membership grew to include two of my other friends, one who actually never even attended Berkeley! Yes, it was an interesting experiment. However things got more and more vicious and I finally shut down the interface last week. I also stopped posting my own trolls as well. I regret for posting trolls and anything mean or derogatory, and for allowing others to do the same. I take full responsibility. I will aaron myself after I copy a few files back to my home machine. Thanks. \_ Post your name when you do. -emarkp \_ I think it's funny that this is posted anonymously. \_ Not really. What op described is a direct violation of CSUA policy and grounds for immediate squishing. \_ I'm not sure an anonymous confession is a confession at all. \_ You should be squished insofar as your interface allowed motd overwrites. (If you went so far as to build it, you should have built it right, and it is possible.) \_ So, was one of yours the jblack hater guy? \_ You owe several people personal apologies.  2005/9/29-30 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39922 Activity:nil 9/28 var is full, and I can't send mail, someone please fix it! \_ Done. --mconst \_ Don't rely on soda for mail. \_ So you only use soda for the motd? \_ I've had a soda account for a long time. Lots of legacy shit and mailing lists and so forth. I just don't use it for any mail I actually *need* to get. \_ Uuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh, duuuhhhhhhh.  2005/9/20-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:39769 Activity:kinda low 9/20 Since people don't seem to have Clue(tm) about what is going on with csua@csua, let me explain: With the transition to the new mailman-managed lists, politburo made the decision that a requisite of having an account on soda is being subjected to knowing what is going on in the organization. Therefore we imported every user into the list. There was a mistake in that jobs@csua was pointing at csua@csua, so everyone was getting job spam. Well, maybe not a mistake, but a poor decision. It was therefore decided that jobs would be an opt-out email list seperate from csua@csua. You should all be getting much less csua@csua spam, and can opt-out of jobs@csua at your discretion. - jvarga \_ jvarga, how about turning off all alumni accounts? They're annoying as hell. We can talk about this at TC Gardens. My treat. \_ I'll take you up on free food, but I won't fry alumni accounts. I am, unfortunately, out on an internship for 8 months, so I'll take you up on this offer you have promised to me without putting conditions on it when I get back. - jvarga \_ I remember when I was young and could be bribed into doing a 150 project for this hot manipulative BITCH with a cheapo TC Garden lunch that she paid for because I thought she liked me. ARGH!!!!! \_ I almost got dragged into that kind of situation with 162. At the last second I came to my senses. At the last second I came to my senses -- but yeah -- that girl was put together right. I think she ended up doing *really* badly that semester since both of the people that she tried to manipulate into her group bailed on her. \_ Cal alumni tend to bitch a lot and contribute very little. Look at Stanford. They have so much idling Sun Ultras just waiting to be used or hacked. They've always had an abundance. Then look at Cal. 30 years later we're still bickering on the lack of resources. Sad. -1980s guy \_ What a waste of electricity and silicon. \_ Are you sure you're not just describing yourself or justifying your own shortcomings with "everyone else does it"? \_ Change begins at home. Why don't you contribute something to the CSUA instead of bitching? - alum who donates \_ So, a few alumni are annoying, at least by one person's definition. So now we should use that as reason to turn off all alumni accounts? It would seem to me that alumni contribute more than they are annoying. Some even contribute money. \_ and how will the newbie maggots get a job afterward without networking or getting input from the real world? \_ Like you would really help anyone besides yourself anyway? -mrauser \_ I had a longer response but someone stomped me. I've asked for job postings before and gotten them; I've seen jobs advertised here by grads for both grads and ugrads; I bet alot of the opportunities in the csua/jobs or wherever are from grads. -mice \_ I have hired several interns and at least 1 full time person into my group based on reponses to job postings on the motd or general csua contact. \_ Go go gadget mrauser networking skills! :-) -John \_ As was surmised, and for future reference (not that you or the politburo should care) when you do this you should send out an email explaining the above. \_ I think it got lost in the confusion because Seidl (sp?) did the actual mailman configuration. I agree it would be a good idea to send out notice next time (like I did with jobs@csua). -mrauser \_ Am I allowed to opt-out of csua@csua too? \_ No, thanks for playing. -mrauser As a side note, if you want to use the CSUA server, you at least have to pay some attention to CSUA events (or just be lame and nuke them in your procmail folder, but I'm watching you!). \_ Simple solution to a simple problem-- just nuke every single ungrateful alumni who never seem to be satisfied anyways. Why the hell are they still using UC resources anyways? \_ Opting-out a list reduces resource usage on /var/mail. \_ Does the current 'df' situation look like I care about resource usage on /var/mail or /home? - jvarga \_ the motd should be an opt-out thing too. Seriously!! \_ It already is. Just do "touch ~/.hushlogin". \_ Right now, MOTD is opt-in; new accounts have .hushlogin by default. -tom \_ And again this wasn't the case for 2 decades until a bitch convinced her bf p**** to disable motd because she was offended by trolls.  2005/9/20-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39763 Activity:nil 9/20 I've had a soda account since 1993. How come I've never received any e-mail from the CSUA mailing list until this month? I didn't even know such a list existed. Thanks. \_ Probably because until recently the mailing list was an opt-in list, which probably has been changed to an opt-out list. \_ Motd should also be an opt-out thing. It was for over 2 decades until an idiotic root guy changed it back because his gf on soda feels insulted by the trolls. \_ Wow, that was a total non-sequitur.  2005/9/19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39752 Activity:high 9/19 motd boring. Where have all the flame wars gone?! \_ Yay! Today's motd is very civil. Let's see, we've talked about linux, sleep disorder, fedora, etc. Motd is being useful again! As long as left wing right wing nuts stay away motd is cool. \_ Nope, motd boring. And clearly, you love George Bush, you fascist. \_ And clearly, you're a left-wing nut who loves sodomy, wears "Earth Day" clothes and actually recycles. \_ In Nazi Germany, they didn't recycle either.  2005/9/14-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39664 Activity:high 9/14 Yet another motd/wall poll. Put 'a' if you're alum, 's' student: We new blood: aa Keep current elite members: l33t h2x0rz: 1111111111111 \_ We don't want need blood. We love the old alumni and their vile and harsh words. It is what makes motd the way it is. Keep current elite members: l33t h2x0rz: 1111111111111 \_ Why would they want to? Aren't the democraticunderground and the freepers still taking new members? All rational discourse is long since dead here. Even on tech questions we have people telling others they won't answer a question because they hate the person. Feel the love! I read but find little reason to post anymore. \_ I've had very little trouble getting information on a number of technical and non-technical issues. Motd has more than its share of invective, but I do see a fair amount of 'rational discourse'. "I'm finished, cry for my absence" announcements really do very little to remedy the problem. It looks like they attract invective and hostility rather than calming things down. Perhaps you should consider modifying your behavior on this group, finding a little more tolerance and patience, or really make good on your nth promise to leave and actually do so. -mice \_ It was no such thing as the "taking my ball and go home" as you make it out to be. I've posted more today than in the last year, nor did I sign which should show the lack of "ball taking home"ness. In the context of "wouldn't it be nice to have fresh blood around here?" my response is "given the stuff that gets posted here, why would someone new want to join in?". You're reading too much into it that isn't there. \_ Okay, fair enough. I guess I just react harshly to that general sort of declaration ("I don't post any more", "ball go home" etc) since I see that frequently, but almost never see anyone actually do it (this whole thread would seem to attest to the fact that you do find reason to post here, in contradiction to the assertion). Sorry for jumping the gun on you, man. -mice \_ You find little reason to post anymore? Like the last 5 lines that preceded this post? \_ I'm not sure which 5 lines you're talking about. The motd changes too fast. \_ Look up "hissyfit". -John \_ Whatever. If you think the level of discourse isn't well beyond personal then be happy. In fact, that someone would dare comment on the level of personal animosity on the motd and then get a snippy comment like this in response makes my point, thanks. And yes, go look up hissyfit. This isn't it. This is simply my opinion backed by an example or two that were on the motd at the time I posted. \_ Woe is you. There are 2-3 borderline psychopaths that post to motd (jblack hater guy and some of the other random trolls.) Just because you were offended by some of the idiocy you see here (grown-up versions of the nerdy little shits with glasses who liked to tease people on the playground because you weren't allowed to slug them) doesn't automatically mean it's all crap. Of course you're welcome to your opinion. -John \_ Again, in the context of "adding fresh blood to the motd", why would anyone new want to join in? Offended? Nope. Somewhat disappointed that what used to be a good place for lots of tech info on a daily basis and heated but mostly rational political debate is much different now. But my feelings are merely a distraction to the point: why would anyone new want to join a community with "2-3 borderline psychopaths" who seem to have way too much time on their hands? Look at the motd the way a new person might and ask yourself if you'd want to join in conversation and community of strangers like that. I'm *not* saying we need a policy or enforcement of some rule or whatever. I'm only saying exactly what I've said about new people and nothing more. \_ Maybe it's just me, but I think there's the occasional interesting tech-type thread, the rare intelligent political thread, and the pretty frequent pseudo- anonymous chest thumping random thread that's actually pretty funny. Too bad you see these as turn-offs, you should join me in a contest to see who can collect the most interesting troll following. -John political thread, and the pretty frequent pseudo-anonymous \ chest thumping random thread that's actually pretty funny. Too bad you see these as turn-offs, you should join me in a contest to see who can collect the most interesting troll following. -John \_ I'll certainly admit that you've got some interesting ones, John. I think ilyas has some pretty good ones, too. -mice \_ Right now I only have heil cherman john guy and some random occcasional others. I tried to cultivate chicom troll, but he proved too wild to tame. Our loss. -John \_ Either you're so brilliant that you find intelligent things hidden in the motd, or I'm so dumb that I find motd to be stupid. Or maybe Beir trinke Krauts like you find anything stupid to be funny. I do like the link you post though, they're always of quality, like the German cars. Oh, and learn to fucking conform to 80 columns you Scheiße \_ What is Beir? Is that Israeli? -John \_ "why would anyone new want to join [motd], a community with 2-3 borderline psychopaths" My answer is simple. Because these psychopaths are bored and lonely and need to meet new psychopaths who are just like them \_ Because anonymous psychopaths are damned funny.  2005/9/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39656 Activity:low 9/13 Anthro professor investigated student life by becoming a student: http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/09/13/freshman_year/index.html 'In the book, I look at things that the university says it wants to focus on. They say, "We're a community of scholars, we're a community of diversity, we're about intellectual life." That's what the university thinks it is. From what I saw, the student's version of these concepts is very different.' \_ oh gawd, not to criticize necessarily, but did anyone else find this really boring? basically: students at fourth-tier university don't like to give the impression that they're studying hard so they're not branded as nerds/overachievers, they care more about grades than learning anything, they take loans to pay for tuition/housing, and part-time jobs to pay for iPods and random entertainment crap. \_ FWIW, Berkeley students are exactly the same way - only difference I can see is that Mommy and Daddy usually pay for the iPod and the random entertainment crap. \_ I didn't find a lot of Berkeley students to be particularly wealthy, spoiled, or coddled. Some were. It's nothing like private school, though. You should see the kids at the private liberal arts colleges. I found UCB students to be harder-working and less-privileged than many. Addendum: I found a lot of academic, political, and philosophical discussion at UCB. I submit the MOTD as an example. That the professor thinks her students and those at Yale aren't much different is what makes an NAU professor and a Yale professor different. \_ Ditto. For all the extremism and stupidity I was extremely impressed by the general character of the people I was at Cal with. FWIW, in the "real world" I've also generally found the above to be peoples' view of Berkeley. -John  2005/9/7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39551 Activity:high 9/7 Can the liberal and conservative over-writers PLEASE stop doing it? Your scp/ftp-provided anonymity isn't that important to both of you is it? \_ use motdedit, right? \_ even if you don't use motdedit, even vi, jove, or emacs will stop you from an accidental overwrite \_ motdedit is a tool of the fascist/socialist overlord root masters to subjugate the masses under their iron root masters to subjugate the massess under their iron booted fists! motd anarchist overwriters of the world unite! you have nothing to loose but other ppls posts! \_ And proper spelling! \_ sp3lling is a t007 of the white male$indow$overlord 0ppre550rz! que5t1on 4uthor17y! sp34k 1337! RUN L1NUX! R1D3 B1K3! Boredcast Message from 'tom': Wed Apr 14 20:47:08 1993 Nick, *just yesterday* I corrected you when you spelled it wrong twice in a row. It's not dyslexia, or typos, it's you being a thick-skulled dimwit. One O in 'lose' as it relates to the Bad News Bears. Two O's in 'loose' as it relates to your mom. \_ sp3lling is a t007 of the white male$indow$overlord 0ppre550rz! que5t1on 4uthor17y! sp34k 1337! RUN L1NUX! R1D3 B1K3! PL4Y N377RE3K! 0ppre550rz! qu35t10n 4uthor17y! sp34k 1337! RUN L1NUX! R1D3 B1K3! PL4Y N3TTR3K!  2005/9/6-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39527 Activity:nil 9/6 Did ilyas really challenge John to a gun duel, and then say he was leaving motd because it had turned into soda wall? Someone please tell me it was someone posing as ilyas who wrote that, or that he was totally kidding. \_ John, I challenge you to a gun duel. Are you scared? -- ilyas \_ Come get some. You're right, I'm craven because I don't go seek out random scrawny geeks I've never met who challenge me to GUN DUEL on the soda motd. Do you challenge people to GUN DUEL often, Ilya? -John \_ http://csua.com/?entry=39490 People like ilyas and John are making motd as dirty as wall. This is the reason why politburo disabled motd for newbies. \_ No. It was a troll. \_ So ilyas was trolling John about the gun duel? \_ No. I think it was a third person acting as a poser troll. \_ What do you mean "I think"? Either you know (because you're ilyas, the troll himself, or ilyas told you) or you don't know. \_ You're getting waaaay too worked up about this, man. \_ Don't change the subject. So does the guy know or is he just guessing? \_ He knows. \_ Okay, it's cleared up by the URL. ilyas posted that it wasn't him but a troller. For the record, ilyas did not aaron himself, did not challenge John to a gun duel. For the record, ilyas did not challenge John to a gun duel. "No. It was a troll." guy could have saved a lot of trouble by posting something to that effect and/or the URL earlier. \_ Uhm, that rather assumes I'm willing to go to the effort on your behalf. Considering the nature of the whole thing, that's just ...odd. \_ "A lot of trouble"? Didn't cause me any trouble at all. *shrug* \_ no duh. \_ You're taking this all too seriously. Trust me, it's not worth the energy. \_ See URL to confirm that, for the record, it was someone posing as ilyas. ilyas did not challenge John to a gun duel. Someone please tell me it was someone posing as ilyas who wrote that, or that he was totally kidding. \_ It was a poser troll, so be of good cheer. \_ That was an imposter. Ilyas always uses motdedit, a mechanism that KAIS MOTD logs very well. The duel post shows that whoever posted as ilyas, did not use motdedit. \_ It was a poser troll, so be of good cheer. \_ You sure he "always" uses motdedit? I thought he used vi all the time and merged in changes where he could. \_ John, I challenge you to a gun duel. Are you scared? -- ilyas \_ Come get some. You're right, I'm craven because I don't go seek out random scrawny geeks I've never met who challenge me to GUN DUEL on the soda motd. Do you challenge people to GUN DUEL often, Ilya? -John \_ You sure he "always" uses motdedit? I thought he used vi all the time and merged in changes where he could. \_ ilyas appears to have aaroned himself. \- ilyas stayed in the sauna too long. he is going to challege john in the russian style of naked sauna wrestling.  2005/9/4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39480 Activity:high 66%like:39476 66%like:39484 9/3 Cheney RIP. -- ilyas \_ Btw, if another cocksucker modifies my post, I ll nuke the entire motd like in the old days. -- ilyas \_ Libertarianism in action! The motd is an anarchist paradise. Done worry, be happy and retaliate like a small child. \_ Don't worry, the cocksucker in question is running a 'no-shrink script.' -- ilyas \_ Btw, if another modifies my post, I ll nuke the entire motd like in the old days. -- ilyas \_ Sorry, wasn't it Judge Rehnquist who passed away? -chaos \_ yes, psb thinks it's clever to change ilyas' post, and ilyas thinks deleting the motd "punishes" psb in some way. What a pair of losers. -tom  2005/8/25-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39272 Activity:low 8/25 Trying to follow threads on motd is confusing. In particular, I have no idea who the "pp" is refering to (like, what level of thread to go up to refer to the pp). Anonymous posting is good, but it'd be even better if you guys can stick to an alias. That way, it's easier to follow threads without having to guess who the poster was and what he stood for. -alias \_ A consistent alias combined with KAIS motd would pretty easily destroy anonymity. KAIS motd probably has a good guess about who wrote this post. --not-really=anonymous \_ How about consistent alias wrt the post, but not the entire lifetime of the poster? That'll be nice. -alias \_ Someone once suggested using hex numbers for exactly this purpose. I thought it was a good idea, but no one actually did it. -- 0x1 \_ Who are you!? I am number 0x2. Who is number 0x1? You are number 0x6. I am not a number, I am a free man!! Haaaahaahahahahahaaaa!!! \_ NEEEEERDDDDSSSSS!!!!!! \_ If you were not also a nerd, you wouldn't know what I was talking about. -0x6 \_ Good point! -- 0x1 \_ Ok. So who are you, really? -alias \_ KAIS motd is a piece of shit and whoever wrote it needs to get squished and die because it violates the spirit of saying whatever I want on motd. -kais hater  2005/8/17-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39158 Activity:low 8/17 Did Al Gore say it? Or was it the Unabomber? http://www.crm114.com/algore/quiz.html -jblack \_ Either you sign your name, or it gets deleted. Since you're so persistent and tried to repost the same trash at exactly 19:02, 23:40, 23:57, so on and so forth, I've done you a favor and signed for you. God Bless. -god \_ [self-deleted for further investigation] -- ilyas \_ Hey look politburo, root abuse! -- ilyas \_ when sys admins attack... \_ Hey look politburo, root abuse! The only people with soda root I don't know are dlong, erikk and brett. erikk hasn't been on since Monday. So, ... I am fairly sure it's one of the remaining two who is abusing. At least one current root agrees with me this kind of root usage constitutes abuse. Incidentally, where are all the fuckers who were calling for my squishage due to motd deletions? Cat got your tongue? Or is this one of those 'nuanced situations' I keep hearing about? -- ilyas \_ [self-deleted pending further investigation] -- ilyas \_ I sure hope you're not *abusing* root for something as stupid as the motd. Which reminds me, just how many people have root? It shouldn't be more than Politburo. With power comes responsibility, etc. \_ Arguably, it shouldn't be (all of) politburo. Arguably, not even VP _needs_ root (we've had some severely non-technical VPs in the past) \_ I don't know, some allumni who have root are very important to keeping everything running and helping out new VPs. mconst and njh come to mind. \_ Forgive my density, but what about the post above indicates sb with root was involved? -- ulysses \_ It's freakin' soda, fool. Root abuse is their only perk. \_ Don't be lame. "It is soda so we have no standards" is idiotic. \_ when sys admins attack... \_ It's not like FreeRepublic embraces everyone, you know. \_ Which has exactly *nothing* to do with root abuse on soda. \_ You didn't sign your name, and I don't like what you're saying, AND I think you're a jerk. Should I delete your post? \_ There's not a single mention of "internet"? Wow. \_ boring  2005/8/5-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:39015 Activity:moderate 8/5 Jvarga, don't listen to the flaming idiots. Most people in the CSUA appreciate what you are doing, even if not all your decisions are perfect. In particular, I would ignore tom, whose only purpose in life is to piss on other people's work while contributing nothing of his own. Thank you for contributing your time and effort to the CSUA. -- ilyas \_ gee, thanks ilyas. now take your foot out of your mouth, since I'm not one of the people flaming jvarga. Fuckwad. -tom \_ I thought your 'commentary' on jvarga was, if not outright flaming, pretty abrasive (this is on wall). The problem is, your abrasiveness is such a part of your personality, you don't even notice when you are like it anymore, it seems normal to you. -- ilyas \_ what, where I compared NIS as a possibly questionable technical decision, to paolo being a complete fucking idiot? And where I said he was doing better than the last N VPs? -tom \_ Tom, I am sorry, I misread what you were saying. -- ilyas \_ Hey tom, which of jvarga's actions were "fucking idiotic"? In all the time I've used soda so far (since 1998 or so), jvarga seems to be the friendliest and most active csua official ever. Well in terms of soda, I dunno wtf goes on with the actual, you know, group stuff. But in general insulting someone who is helping our asses for free makes you the fuckwad. \_ Read it again. I was calling paolo a fucking idiot, not jvarga. -tom \_ oh, I guess ilyas had me going. ilyas is back to fuckwad for the day. \_ He is NOT a Jew, so he has no credibility. -jew #1 \_ I agree, maybe not about tom, but running soda is a tough job, and I appreciate all the work that is going into it. --jwm \_ I would say, you're doing it for free, thanks. Nothing's perfect, but if shit starts breaking that used to work, we're coming for you, jvarga! Is that fair? \_ What is to not agree about tom? Everything ilyas says is correct or has been proven to be correct in general. He hates everything, and replies "this sucks" to everything we do. Take the google/housing map for example. \_ Tom can be very abrasive, agreed. But I wouldn't say "[his] only purpose in life is to piss on other people's work while contributing nothing of his own." Those of us that have a long history with the CSUA know this isn't true. \_ No matter what someone has done for the CSUA, that is *never* an excuse to mistreat another human being. \_ DUde! It's a GREAT excuse to mistreat a human being!!1! I can't think of a better reason to kick the walker out from under some old lady in the middle of an intersection! "I gave$100 to the CSUA....BITCH!!! " Goddamn, now I feel like donating to the CSUA again..... \_ Fine, we can't agree that tom's an asshole. Let's try to agree on something else, like, iff CSUA were run like Survival the TV show, then tom would be the first to be voted out. Can we agree on that? \_ Actually, I'd vote your ass off first, since tom has actually done something more useful than whine like a little puppy. \_ Tom has actually given quite alot of good technical advice here. He may be caustic at times, but he knows his stuff and is willing to share information. Personally, I'd be sorry to see him gone. -mice \_ No matter what someone has done for the CSUA, that is *never* an excuse to mistreat another human being. \_ I see far more people mistreating fellow human beings (tom, ilyas, emarkp, to name a few) than I see defending them or their rights. It seems strange to me that you'd be quick to jump to the defense of their (often vicious) detractors, and yet be silent when they come under attack unprovoked. Not two posts up there's someone mistreating another human being....where's your outrage for that? Or is your outrage only reserved for those that defend people that you personally don't like? \_ The ratio of useful comments over caustic remarks so low, it's almost 0. So, I'd be happy when he gets a life and moves on, or get squished. Wait I'd be happy when I get a life so I don't have read and post on the stinking motd. \_ You know, the ratio of useful comments over {caustic, stupid, bullshit, whatever} remarks on the motd is pretty low. As for the weenies who attack people randomly and anonymously, that's a whole different story. -John attack people randomly and anonymously, that's a whole different story. -John \_ He knows a little bit about this and that and all are certainly entitled to shoot the breeze about the political issues of the day. But he goes beyond that. He sometimes has valid points limited to user interface issues, but given the actual programming is well-beyond his abilities he should offer them in a more humble spirit. And on plenty of occasions he is simply wrong in his design criticisms, and is either unable to admit to the errors or is unwilling to see things from a non-Tom centric perspective. It would be smartest to just ignore the pompous and ignorant comments about technical matters (relating to filesystems, programming language design, networking protocols, operating system) in the face of many humbler and better informed people on soda, but I find it difficult to do so. \_ I am also a pompous ass with strong opinions on language design. Why I rant about the loathsomeness of Perl practically daily. -- ilyas \_ Okay ilyas, show us on the doll where perl touched you.... \- Aren't you a graduate student in computer science who presumably has taken a compiler class and a class on abstract languages? That seems to give you at least nominal qualifications to make informed judgments. When it come to some of your out-of-core-competency opinions, we'll ignore you. ok tnx. \_ prz be to stick an ice pick in your eye for using 'core competency' in a non-ironic way. kthxbai. -- ilyas \- do you love I BERLIN? business people [jim collins] have coopted his HEDGEHOG. \_ Yes, that seems likely. But we have consider that a fair number of people have already been voted off. \_ who?
 2005/7/26-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38833 Activity:moderate 57%like:38555 53%like:38796 7/26 More administrativa including upcoming downtime. Read the official motd you hozers. - jvarga \_ jvarga et al -- what sorts of booze? I'd be glad to donate some cash for a discretionary entertainment fund for our hardworking rootish adminy volunteer people.... -mice \_ I dunno. I don't drink alcohol at all, and njh is going to be out of town. Chances are that I will be making these changes in my underwear from the comfort of my home. - jvarga \_ You shouldn't request booze if you don't want any. Your punishment to drink the vodka in the filing cabinet! ... No, I guess being the CSUA sysadmin is punishment enough... :P \_ I usually request booze to make the rest of root easier to work with. - jvarga \_ Back in my day, we just used the bat for that. When twohey wasn't busy using it on his project partners, that is... \_ I think the last time root types assembled with alcohol, we had wine. Perhaps a dessert wine, like a port. \_ fag. \_ I don't get it. What would you prefer? \_ I think ya do, Trebek! I think ya do! \_ Buckfutter!!1! \_ It's a joke, son. \_ jvarga - are you going to be in Berkeley next tuesday afternoon? I'd like to thank you (and give you a donation for the csua) in person. --ranga \_ I get out of classes at 4pm, after which I'll likely be in the office slamming my head against things after the home dir move. - jvarga \_ stalker alert! \_ ranga I'm poor, can you please treat me to Fondue Fred tomorrow? -poor student \_ poor student: so presumably you have some free time and talent to donate. do do anything for the CSUA or are talent to donate. do you do anything for the CSUA or are you just a leech? \_ he's a poor student precisely because he has no free time and/or talent with which to make money. \_ I'm a poor student because I spend all my time doing stuff for the CSUA rather than getting a real job. - jvarga \_ Any idea when /ftp will be up again? Thx.
 2005/7/25-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:38805 Activity:low 7/25 I don't know anything about Green Days or their lyrics. Are they really "green"? Like do their songs sing about environment, conservation, mother nature, fuck you Bush, and other things? \_ Maybe they'll have some information on the internets. \_ No, Green Day refers to smoking marijuana all day, and they're a punk band. They have little or nothing to do with the Green Party, Greenpeace, or Green Acres. \_ Fuck them then. \_ Dookie! \_ Why don't you ask them in person? They used to hang out near the dumbsters behind Safeway in Berkeley. |_ I thought the Berkeley dumbsters hung out on the motd. the dumpsters behind Safeway in Berkeley.
 2005/7/6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38441 Activity:high 7/6 Why isn't the public motd on the csua website? \_ Because "The uncensored messages below this line may not reflect opinions of the CSUA." \_ but, butbutbut, we could put the warning too. \_ After 9/11 and what paolo did, there has been a reluctance from politburo to confirm or deny the existence of motd. \_ These axes, they grind them forever and ever...
 2005/6/28-29 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38333 Activity:nil 6/29 Hey danh! Can you stop posting http://csau.org links to gorey images as responses to threads? Isn't one of the motd rules not being a jerk? \_ Dan's not here, man. \_ 1) Dan hasn't logged on since last night 2) clicking a danh link is done at your own peril \_ I don't post random links to the motd without some description, and I use tinyurl, not http://csua.org, since I have a tinyurl firefox extension. - danh \_ It was probably psb. That's the kind of thing he thinks is clever. -tom \_ Um, so those procs running as 'danh' aren't his? \_ He just logged in. pbbbt. \- Fear of a Danhimal Planet
 2005/6/22-23 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38246 Activity:nil 6/22 Dear motd custodian, please wake up and do you job. Keep motd clean and neat. I've been doing your job for the past few days. Lazy ass. \_ Sorry, I've got this class presentation tonight so I haven't looked at the motd for a few days. I was hoping the 'liberal == communist' and the 'bush == hitler' people would be censoring each other thus keeping the motd relatively clean.
 2005/6/21-23 [Consumer/Audio, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:38241 Activity:nil 6/21 Hey native russian speakers, what the hell is this: http://www.dusha.su/main.html I can't figure it out. .su is Siberia... I think? I didn't know Siberia had split off already! Who is this guy? http://tinyurl.com/72luo - danh \_ .su is leftover from soviet union. \_ Where did you hear about these guys, Dan? They are a cult, by the way. E-mail me for details. -- ilyas \_ share all the juicy details with the rest of the motd. \_ Eh, why should I? Motd treats me like shit. -- ilyas \_ motd treats us all like shit
 2005/6/17-19 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38167 Activity:high 6/16 Do any of you essentially not read books any more? I find it interesting there are people who are bright and by any measure successful who read maybe .5 - 1 book a year, e.g. my housemate has an MBA from MIT/Sloane and is essentially retired at 48. I'm not sure he has read 2 books in the 2yrs I've lived here. He does watch various news and informational TV programs so he's not clueless about the world. This does not include "HowTo" books. \_ I generally don't make time for reading, though several times a year I go crazy and read all the books I buy in my off periods. In general, though, the books I do try to read when I'm not devoting most of my time to it are difficult reads that I go through them very slowly. \_ I am neither bright nor successful, but I don't really read very much. -- ilyas \_ I read a lot when commuting on BART. Since I had to start driving, I've pretty much stopped. \- I'm not talking about very much. I mean zero. And I'm not talking about do you knock off a Shakespeare now and them ... I mean people who dont even read The Da Vinci Code or Michael Crichton or other "airplane pilp". Crichton or other "airplane pulp". \_ When I read, I tend to read classics or books of an informational nature. Most newer fiction is not for me. The last book I read was 'Dune' (again) about a year ago. I am not sure that reading books (especially fiction) indicates much of anything at our age. I used to read a lot more when I was younger and had the time. FWIW, I don't watch TV or go to the movies either. I do read the newspapers and magazines like 'The Economist' religiously. BTW, how come your housemate is a 'housemate' when he has a good degree from a good school? Is he lazy? \- I'm not suggesting anything about "our age" ... this was asked on the soda MOTD and I'd think the soda motd has a marginally higher literacy rate than "our age". Of course people here are more likely to have the web suck up their time. And I am not talking about reading but reading books. A lot of these smart-but-non-readers read the newspaper and other practical books like the Idiot's Guide to DVD burning etc. I dont understand the "why is your housemate a housemate" part of the question. \_ What I mean by 'our age' is that a kid who reads a lot is probably bright (not sure about which is the cause and which is the effect). I do not think this is true once you reach adulthood. If someone reads 10 bodice rippers a week does that imply anything about his or her intellect or lack thereof? 'Number of books read' by itself is meaningless at this stage of intellectual development. Someone who reads the NYT and Wall Street Journal every day is quite likely doing more for themselves than the bodice ripper person. As for your housemate, I am wondering why he doesn't have his own place when he has a graduate degree from MIT. That sounds rather odd. I'd worry about that more than about how many books he reads. \- I was not the one equating "reads" with intelligence. If anything I was saying that I found it odd a fair number of pretty intelligent people *dont* read ... or if you go to their homes you will not see 10 books. I agree a lot of people who read pulp somehow think that is supirior to wantching TV, when they are essentially the same thing ... and then there are people who watch a HISTORY CHANNEL show on Rome and think that is 50% of the way to reading R. SYME: THE ROMAN REVOLUTION when it is closer to like 3%. Re: house- mate: he owns multiple millions of dollars in real estate. I can only assume he lets me live here because of my wit and charm, since he clearly doesnt need my meagre rent. \_ I haven't read a book 'for fun' since I graduated several years ago. Reading is on my 'todo' list but never rises to the top. I have other things I'd rather be doing or need to be doing. \_ Interesting. I didn't have time to read at college, but now that I work I read voraciously. \_ Before to law school I was reading about 1 book every 2 weeks or so (mostly non-fiction - science/history/&c.). Now I pretty much only read my casebooks or related material which amounts to around 300 pages a week (or more). \_ I had pretty much stopped reading for pleasure by my junior year as an undergrad. Then I married a librarian. I read like crazy now (and keep having to get more bookshelves). -emarkp \_ Why does being related to a librarian always make people read more? Is it because they bring home books, or that they get good recommendations at work, or that they read a lot themselves and pass the book on, or what? I've known several sons/daughters of librarians, and they're all avid readers. \_ If you didn't love books, you wouldn't become a librarian \_ Speaking as the son of a librarian, I think the factors are mostly envionmental. My mother read to me a lot as a child. There are always books around the house. We went to the library (as a family) weekly. We got books as presents. Mom was always reading books. etc. -jrleek \_ In my case, she had a lot of great books that I'd never read. Now we recommend books to each other. -emarkp \_ No, we're too busy reading motd. =) But seriously, I read newspaper and website for things that used to be available on printed media. \_ Sometimes books have a hard time competing for my attention with all the other stuff there is to do... I don't read as much as I would have liked. I occasionally get into a mode of reading a number of books. If I get "stalled" in a book it tends to kill my reading habit for a while and I'll go play videogames instead or whatever. I stalled out of a few books lately when I tried reading more classic literature... I made it halfway through Karamazov before giving up. Master and Margarita didn't capture me after a partial attempt. For Whom the Bell Tolls I picked up after really enjoying The Sun Also Rises, but I kind of trailed off halfway through that also. I'm 3/4 through The Iliad translated by Robert Fagles, which doesn't seem as poetic as whatever unknown translation I read a little bit of in college. And the storyline gets a little bogged down with the endless battling and slaughter. I hope to just get those two done and then stick with lighter stuff for a while. I had fun reading short stories since they can be done in one sitting. Hard Boiled detective stories and Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar tales were the latest I read. Lately I've just been listening to audiobooks while I fall asleep or over breakfast... at least I get through stuff that way. \- imho, the iliad is not something you can read without "guidance". best is to read it in a class with a good teacher, but even reading a good introduction may be enough. i say this for two reasons: 1. it is a very "alien" work so you are likely to arrive at some incorrect interpreations unless you are waved off [like say with the metrical rather than descrptive function of the ephithets] 2. it is an amazingly complicated work and there are some structures/methods that you'll need some examples pointed out ... after you know what to look for, there are some structures/methods that you'll need some to be pointed out ... after you know what to look for, then you can look for these on your own [like some details of "ring composition", or the way HELEN is described in the famous "Teikoskopia"]. \_ You're probably right... this book does have a relatively long introductory/preface section and appendices etc. and I did have part of the Iliad as class material at Cal (but I really bailed on that class and I think the focus was not on the literature but the mythological ideas). It does describe at least some of what you're talking about. I have describe at least some of what you're talking about. I have to be in the proper mood for it... I also have the Odyssey from the same guy. I did not compare translations beforehand so I kind of wonder if I'm missing out on something But it's hard to say what the "real" approach should be. The guy of course argues his way best captures the feel. Oh well. \_ psb is right. It's not just a matter of being in the 'mood,' you need a lot of background on their society, the way they thought, their entire moral and metaphysical framework was completely different from ours. \_ I meant in the mood to enjoy reading it. This motd stuff got me into it again for now... \- "moral and metaphysical framework" nicely captures what is at issue in my first point about the "alieness" of the "world of odysseus". but the structural elements unique to oral composition [the parry-lord-parry stuff] in general or homeric epic in particular [like the telescoping of the 10 years of the conflict into the short period covered by the iliad] is a different set of issues. in fact there is one more, which is the philological ... like greek language has "aspect"... but that stuff is beyond me. and i think that has \_ I wish schoen@@csua would login and post. He would know more about this I bet. -- ilyas \- are you a russian? doesnt the russian language have notoriously difficult aspect in addition to tense? then this may be easier for you to follow. the closest i've read to a philology heavy book is G. Nagy: The Best of the Achaeans. very good. \_ I think aspect distinctions exist in English, too. English just lacks a general mechanism. I don't know how sophisticated greek aspect is compared to russian aspect. -- ilyas I didn't know what aspect was, so I found this elucidating: _/ http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/G/Gr/Grammatical_aspect.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_aspect \-yes that was sort of my point. some of this stuff is not like "oh yes the clever boy in the english class got more out of reading Ozymandias than i did" ... there is no hope you will get some of this stuff because it just doesnt exist in your brain, it's not a matter of insight and figuruing it out. diminishing returns for a "normal person". i note that even 5th cent BC athens is much less "alien" and easier to understand. with some exceptions like the Oresteia. \-BTW, I like the Lattimore trans the most probably but I think Fitzgerald and Fagles are reasonable. \-BTW, I like the Lattimore trans the most, but I think Fitzgerald and Fagles are reasonable. Perhaps the 100s of pages of Fagles cant compare to the "highlights" you remember from college. if you want to really go for the poetic one, look at the pope translation. not user-friendly, tho. FACTOID: T.E. Lawrence (of Arabia) did a prose trans. of the Iliad and Odyssey. \_ That may have been it; I will look into it next time I'm in a book place. There are a couple of passages I will know it by. I found Pope online and this too: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Hom.+Il.+1.1 That last version has some ridiculous (IMO) Shakespeare dialogue like "wherefore art thou" that seems out of place. The Fagles stuff is certainly very readable; I guess it seems too casual at times. \- Butler->ass \- Butler -> ass
 2005/6/15-17 [Computer/SW/Security, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38139 Activity:nil 6/15 Attempting to sftp to http://csua.berkeley.edu. Got password from key. Entered password and got back: Received message too long 1701996907 Wtf? \_ password from key. since sftp uses ssh, shouldn't you just use your normal password? \_ Trying to do anonymous motd? \_ No, trying to send files from my PC to my CSUA account. \_ Just use scp. \_ I just tried ssh from SunOS 5 and it worked. \_ I'm trying sftp http://csua.berkeley.edu from CSUA. I'm running tcsh as my shell. \_ tunneling ftp through ssh for sftp is a total lost cause. just use scp. google for winscp \_ he's not tunnelling ftp through ssh, he's using sftp. \_ he's doomed, it's not going to work. USE WINSCP \_ I use putty's psftp all the time. As well as FileZilla for xfering files to and from soda. Why is he doomed? \_ Update: so scp seems to do the trick (on soda and from my Mac). Purely for curiosity's sake, any idea why sftp isn't working? \_ It works for me on windows. \_ sftp seems to be working fine too from freebsd machine \_ A ssh1/ssh2 mismatch? Just a guess, I have never used sftp. scp works fine for all my needs.
 2005/6/6-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37993 Activity:kinda low 80%like:38032 6/6 Hello, my name is William Chow (williamc@csua.berkeley.edu). I never get any pain on my fingers while typing and a web site I found supports my position. Therefore, it is impossible to get CTS or RSI from IO. Also, everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot, and should get the fuck out of my mother country USA. -williamc \_ You forgot to spout off about how you're the only one on the motd who knows any science. Gee, I sure wish I'd spent my career being a fucking sysadmin instead of a physicist--then I'd really understand quantum mechanics. \_ 404 Not Funny. Troll harder. -dans \_ This isn't really williamc, right? This is someone else mocking his RSI statements? \_ Obviously. williamc uses motdedit. \_ the level of maturity on soda is appalling at times. \_ the level of maturity on soda is appealing at times. \_ It's a big improvement from the dickylee days, trust me. \_ dickylee was a wall jerk, not a motd jerk \_ The comment didn't mention motd only \_ I think the word you were going for is "appalling", not "appealing". \_ It was; someone did an edit of the original post. \_ Error 404. Not Funny. Troll Harder. -dans
 2005/5/31-6/2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37908 Activity:kinda low 5/31 http://csua.com/?wiki=1 I'm looking for volunteers to update MOTD WIKI, someone to update definitions like Ding!, ilyased, squish, etc. If you're interested please email me and I'll give you an account. Thanks. -kchang \_ Stupid question. How exactly does one email you? finger: kchang: no such user \_ /csua/bin/finger kchang \_ my name, at soda. If I don't respond it probably went to /dev/null thanks to spamassassin, in which case just post your login. Thanks. -kchang \_ oh, and you can ADD words too with the account. \_ I propose the first volunteer create a list of previously squished users to the Wiki, along with details on why the user was squished \_ Dear Anonymous Fuckhead Coward, Every person of substance I have ever met has made mistakes in his/her past. Some of these mistakes were minor, some were spectacular, ranging from outright stupid to inconsiderate to just plain evil. I count these individuals as people of substance in part because they learned from their past mistakes. But more importantly, they now spend their time engaging in interesting pursuits and creating useful and beautiful works. I often wonder if the current state of affairs persists in spite of those past mistakes or because of them. So, other than trying to punish people for sins of yesteryear, what have you been up to lately? -dans sins of yesteryear, what have you been up to lately? -Dubya \_ Actually I think it would be entertaining to read about the history of squishage. I for one would like to be remembered as the h0zer who is foolish enough to try to bring down the entire EECS network by fingering it once a second. -kchang \_ That was only a near squish. \_ Tried to? I _did_ bring down the network with a simple program that does while true fork(). Why would you want to be remembered as a h0zer? \_ I can see how you would not want to be remembered for \_ I can see how you would to not want to be remembered for the actual time you got squished. \_ apparently EECS does not like your 'finger', haha -troll \_ tien, can you beat this h0zer? http://csua.com/?entry=32148 \_ Uh, I guess not. -tien
 2005/5/31-8/25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37896 Activity:low 5/31 /csua/tmp is full! Clean yer shit! \_ Either clean up yer shit, or I will clean it up for you and impose nasty and unfair quotas upon you all! Muahahahah. - jvarga \_ how about just deleting everything that's not world-readable? -tom \_ Please delete /csua/tmp/dailyshow, or I will report it to campus authorities as a copyright violation enabled by the CSUA. \- just run "find /csua/tmp -mtime +60 -print0 | xargs -0 rm -rf" \_ i wish kai's motd would tell me who mr anonymous is. - danh \_ let's petition to politburo to change it to track every single poster. I'm sick and tired of libertarian motd, it's a chaos. Let's change it to totalitarian motd. \_ ooh yeah, the first thing I think of when I look at online forums which people are required to post non-anonymously is "totalitarian." Like those slashdot nazis. Of course, to be truly "free" we should just make all the users on soda have the same UID, and the market will enforce security for your files. -tom \- just run "find /csua/tmp -mtime +60 -print0 | xargs -0 rm" that's what "tmp" means. \_ Interesting. This got deleted and doesn't show up in kais motd. Hey kchang! What else are you censoring? \_ Do you mean intellidiff or kais motd? Kais motd seems to be updated so infrequently that it's almost useless on fine grain stuff. \_ Not very bright are you? The FAQ specifically says Kais Motd fetches randomly, every 1-2 hours. In addition, there is no connection between Kais Motd and 24HourDiff. 24HourDiff \_ So you throw the information away? Your FAQ says nothing about them being separate. Rather stupid implementation IMO. \_ What's your IP? Let me implement a special feature for you but I need your IP. Email me -kchang \_ This sounds like the features I keep getting in the mail from Microsoft. fetches at a much finer grain detail, and just because it gets updated doesn't mean it'll show up on Kais Motd. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Go read the FAQ, it has implementation details. Dweeb. -kchang \_ Agreed. \_ because its stupid. because it makes people do cron jobs like 'find /csua/tmp -user whoami | xargs -0 touch' Lesson learned, I store stuff off of soda... \_ Thank you. \_ What if I have a file named "Hello /". Notice the space and the forward slash. Would that get parsed as "\rm -rf Hello /" ? \_ Dunno, but I just tried to test this and it seems that "/" is not allowed in a filename. I couldn't do it no matter how I escaped it. \_ '/' is one of the few characters file and directory names are absolutely forbidden to contain in UNIX filesystems. You wont be abel to create a filename containing it short of going outside the filesystem and directly changing characters on the disk. \_ '/' is one of the few characters file and directory names are absolutely forbidden to contain in UNIX filesystems. You wont be abel to create a filename \_ Can I be cain? containing it short of going outside the filesystem and directly changing characters on the disk. \_ There are some issues with auto-deletion, but this is not one of them. It can be done safely but it takes some caution. (I don't really agree it's the right approach for /csua/tmp). -tom \_ man find and look at the -delete option. It's a safe way to avoid the issue you're raising. -dans \_ how about du -sk /csua/tmp/* | sort -n and then wipe out the top 20 offenders? \_ using space in /csua/tmp doesn't make you an "offender." -tom \_ Or until 50% is free.
 2005/5/18-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37759 Activity:nil 5/18 Someone please explain to me what specific actions occured that made nweaver leave? I only have bit and pieces of info here: http://csua.com/?entry=31891 \_ he hasn't left \_ In fact he's currently logged on. \_ This is from fucking 1996. Ohmigod, get a life!
 2005/5/18 [Computer/SW/Unix, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37752 Activity:low 5/18 Hey kchang! You posted a request for people to stop adding and deleting stuff from the motd. But your request didn't show up in your archive. Why not? \_ Because the request got deleted in between archive intervals. You can read the techical FAQ, the archiver is unfortunately not comprehensive. Also, I don't normally do this but I thought it's best that I took out the sicko ascii art in the archiver. It is listed as "Entry has been invalidated." For more info, http://csua.com/?entry=faq1 http://csua.com/?entry=faq2
 2005/5/16-17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:37711 Activity:high 5/16 kchang, I realize this is beyond the bounds of a diff tool, but I think it would be pretty neat if when I use your diff I could get the things that have been added and then deleted, between my current and previous diffs. \_ I did have that feature in an earlier version but the output was very ugly due to the fact that there's a tendency for certain individuals to change their own stuff 5-10 times within 2 minutes. Unless there are compelling reasons and that you can convince my committee members to agree (they're on the bottom of the 24HourDiff page), I'll just leave it as it is. If you want you can just go to the 24HourDiff page and seek linearly. -kchang \_ Your fucking committee members? When did your delusions become this grand? \_ Committee Members for 24HourDiff: brain, dbushong, ilyas, jvarga, chiry, tom. And me. Committee Members for Kais Motd: they're all listed here: http://csua.com/?login=1 \_ Nowhere on here do I see who the Heroic Committee for the Glorious People's Revolution members are. \_ I think all it takes to be a member of the 'committee' is to suggest something and explain why it's a good idea. -- ilyas \_ ilyas is smart. You can thank him for a lot of ideas that turned into actual features here (like user tracking). I just implemented, that's all. -kchang \_ In Communist Russia, user tracks YOU. \_ your user tracking is beyond suck. \_ if you know how to make it better, maybe you can share your knowledge, or just shut the fuck up. And if you think you can get away with everything, you're wrong. scp, cron, sendmail, etc are all logged under /var/log/*.log, accessible by root/wheel. \_ I think user tracking is against the spirit of the motd. \_ I've got your spirit right here pal. Who died and declared you great arbiter of the motd and all matters CSUAish? -dans \_ I did. -God \_ shell> /csua/bin/finger god finger: god: no such user \_ Wow, so are you really abusing root to track who edits a world-writeable file? -meyers \_ Come now, soda has a long history of root abuse. Why break from tradition now? -dans
 2005/5/12-13 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37648 Activity:low 5/11 Utopia motd: When everyone is kind on motd Communist motd: When you need politburo's approval to write on motd \_ Where everyone contributes one word or letter to every post, but where a geriatric hald blind hunt and peck secretary types them in. \_ You are confusing communism with totalitarianism. \_ Well, I guess the theoretical communist motd would just be the utopian motd. (Which is just the libertarian motd where everyone is nice.) \_ Nobody would be allowed to post more than his allotted quota. Except Party officials might give themselves extra benefits for their essential services to the People. And of course all activity would have to be closely monitored in order to ensure this fairness and eliminate destabilizing radicals. Gee, this is looking more like totalitarianism already! Well, our people would have dignity instead of being capitalist running dogs. Capitalist motd: When you need to pay to write something new on motd, and charge others for replying to your stuff \_ More like: posts are given position on the motd based on popularity. \_ Posts are given permission based on how much you paid. \_ Posts are given position based on how much you paid. Fascist motd: When all of your actions are reviewed by the big bro \_ Fascist motd: When you are handed a statement to post and sign. Socialist motd: When politburo controls how many times you can use and abuse motd \_ Provided you don't use e's on wednesdays or s's on Fidays, and every other word is given back to politburo. Seniority motd: Posting position is based on how long you've been in the CSUA. \_ It's just like the capitalist motd, except the Politburo owns the motd and collects the fees, and if you're too poor to pay then they grant you a certain minimum amount of posting. The capitalist motd would be auctioned off to the highest bidder(s) in chunks and they would run the thing themselves, taxed and policed by Politburo. Libertarian motd: When anyone can do whatever he/she pleases to motd \_ Libertarian motd is where we are today. \_ great, an object lesson in why libertarianism is ridiculous. -tom \_ It's been libertarian for years, and yet you continue to obsessively read and post. Would anyone bother to read or post to any of the other above choices(I'm ignoring the utopian one)? \_ probably, everyone except cowardly, abrasive right-wingers would be just fine with it. -tom \_ What is wrong w/ the motd as it exists? Yes there is a bunch of crap on it, but that can be easily ignored. Yes sometimes people overwrite each other, but that isn't a huge problem b/c most people are basically considerate and try to avoid this. All in all it works and has worked for years. Personally I think kchang's attempt at detecting who is making a post is a good one. It has made the discussion more civil and the topics more interesting/technical (as it was years ago). \_ The motd has been held hostage by people who feel that the motd didn't agree with them and that they should have the power to do whatever they want to it. Liberatarian values emphasize personal responsibility. An anonymous motd seems to encourage irresponsible and petty behavior instead of civilized discussion. -rollee \_ I strongly disagree. If the motd is more civil, it's because a couple of people like aaron and ilyas have stopped posting, which is unrelated to anything kchang has done. If people want to post semi-anonymously, there's still plenty of ways to do it, as discussed in other threads. Personally, I've stopped using motdedit just because I don't like the idea of being tracked by kchang. If postings to the motd are going to be tracked, it should be done officially with some kind of version control system, not by some buggy script maintained by a stalking dweeb. \_ The irony is razor sharp. -- ilyas \_ The problem, as I see it, is that while it is desirable to have a anonymous forum for the free and open discussion of all sorts of topics, it is necessary to inject a note of civility into the forum so that newcomers are not turned off. The vitality of this (or any forum) depends on new blood - w/o new perspectives we will end up w/ a bunch of rehashes of the same arguments. The optimal solution would be for everyone to voluntarily behave in a civilized manner, which would encourage newcomers to adopt the same attitude. The history of the motd indicates that this may not be possible. I believe that an official tracking system would create a disincentive to a free and open debate. I see the kchang hack is a compromise. There is still some level of plausible deniability, but you can still get called on the particularly bad comments. This possibility should help to elevate the discussion. \_ "The kchang hack" is annoying and intrusive and pointless. That said, it's based on freely available information; furthermore, nobody's forcing anyone to use motdedit (or even post.) And I don't see it violating any CSUA policies. Best way to deal with it if you don't like it? "Yeah I wrote xyz, so fucking what?" -John \_ amckee's motd: When everyone is kind on motd, or else. \_ amckee's motd: When everyone is kind on motd (to amckee), or else. \_ The Communist, Fascist and Socialist motd's are pretty similar. \_ I find it funny that most of the criticisms are posted anonymously, which really diminish the weight of the post -kchang \_ Really? It seems that most criticism comes from those who are not anon (tom, emarkp, ilyas, john, to name a few). I'd say more than half the ppl who sign their posts have been critical of your script. \_ I for one really like the idea of kchang's script, outside of having logged motd entries. It would reduce the amount of blatently offensive trolls. Maybe we can have a separate motd.not.logged file that people can chose to read or not. -rollee \_ Right...until someone gets offended and starts to agitate for some sort of moderation, and then a new scripter creates a tracking script for it, and then the people that left to hang out in their anonymous utopia start to get pissed off, then it all gets mean and angry(ier), and then some new clever fellow pipes up "hey, let's separate motd.not.logged into motd.not.logged and motd.really.really.not.logged" which of course will fail since no one can stop another random dude from exercising his freedom and scripting or logging THAT one.... \_ That's because I don't give a rat's ass about who thinks what about what I post. I still think your script is dumb, but I certainly won't argue about whether or not you should be allowed to run it. -John
 2005/5/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37636 Activity:nil 5/11 Proposal for amckee: add in an experimental /etc/motd.experimental where one needs to use a lock/unlock mechanism. Make tracking anonymous (but auditable by root if threads start to violate UC Regent laws). Then: cat motd.official motd.public motd.experimental > motd We can play around with it for a while, and see how it goes. \_ you don't need to enforce lock/unlock if you enforce editing via one command. motdedit merge works fine, so no need for locking. -nivra \_ There's already some form of locking in motdedit, although I haven't looked at it much to see how it works (or breaks down). As the simplest mechanism, we'd only need to make motd.exper writable by some special user, suid motdedit to that user, and add the all-users group to the sudoers list for that file cmd. \_ motdedit uses the normal file lock that standard text editors can use. It's not an absolute lock that prevents others from editing, obviously. My point is that one of the reasons people didn't use motdedit, esp. when threads are in heavy debate, is the pain of having to wait while others edit and have the motd locked. motdedit -n doesn't require a lock, and still prevents overwrites. Thus, you can implement your solution without requiring locks, as long as everyone is using motdedit. I shoulda just made "-n" the default. -nivra [Re-posted after it was overwritten, ironically, enough] \_ speaking of which, it just merged my post with this one below it. -nivra \_ One thing I was thinking of was to create a bona-fide threaded interface, something with a database behind it where users can post anonymously (but not delete their or other records). Nothing revolutionary, by far, but tailor it for something like Lynx and automatically generate a 'read-only, most recent' list piped to motd.public - something that looks exactly like this. Perhaps make it only locally accessible, though (the interface, not the motd). Sounds controversial, though, and your idea might be better in the short-term, if nothing else. \_ http://csua.org/motd \_ Haha, fabulous. It always amazes me the sheer quantity of crap on here yet to be discovered (by me, at least). So, uh, why don't we just make people use that? \_ of course, most people probably look directly at the .public file and it'd be a shame not to be able to do interleaved threading... \_ it's called "wall" -meyers
 2005/5/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:37633 Activity:very high 5/11 Mr. McKee, You're getting awfully heated in the below conversation. As root, former VP, and now president, you should really cool your heels before making pronouncements. You're treading where a number of others have trod to no good effect. Words from those with authority (as limited and petty as that authority may be) must be wielded cautiously, or you'll find yourself either without that authority or with authority over a worthless entity. --Another former VP. \_ Hey, fuck off. Unlike previous apathetic/pathetic VP/president, this new guy is actually showing some interest in making changes. People hold on to the past dearly, but it's year 2005 and our motd still using 1970 technologies. It's time to let go and move on, and give our new guy the benefit of the doubt. Go McKee. I SUPPORT YOU. \_ See, unfortunately, lacking historical perspective, you don't know that these are either non-changes or changes doomed for failure. \_ Drink the kool-aide or I'll make new soda a Windows 2003 box! \_ I have made no secret that my primary loyalty is to current students, these are the people that keep the CSUA alive and purposeful. Alumni have many valuable things that can still contribute to the CSUA and our students, but we musn't lose focus on what our ultimate agenda is - the betterment and enjoyment of current CS students. Soda serves as a bridge between the old and the new, but the priority still goes to the new. What sort of environment does soda present to users we're trying to bring into the CSUA fold, when they see tripe and vitriol in such a public form? What sense of community develops, when the only impression people get about the CSUA soda community is that they're a bunch of assholes? It's not the community I want to foster under my watch, and I make no bones about working against efforts that seek to undermine the success of the CSUA. Perhaps I'm an autocratic nazi like this, but I also don't see how mindless insults in the MOTD can be defended. \_ The sentiment is quite commendable, but as someone in a leadership role (and as an experienced internet user), showing restraint is part of the job description. In general, injecting more vitriol into a vitriolic conversation is not the best way to calm the situation, show leadership, or impress anyone with your own maturity. As an alum, I'd gladly donate services or money to the csua...provided I could be convinced that my time/money/effort was going to be put to use in a mature, considered way. It's gratfying to see that csua leadership is passionate about the csua, but don't let your passion become part of the very problem you're fighting. -mice \_ You're treading the censorship line. There are many statements made on the MOTD that cannot be defended. They can, however, be ignored. The sense of community, that's up to those of you on campus. It's always been the toughest thing to succeed at with this group. But your autocratic leanings are only going to leave _you_ stressed and disappointed. No one else will care. \_ I think the legitimate criticism is in the words you use ("go fuck yourself"), not necessarily in your philosophy. \_ I've never been one to spare a snide come back, but you're right. I removed that part. \_ carrots are crunchy and full of vitamins. They taste really great when juiced with some beets, an apple, and a smidge of ginger.
 2005/5/11 [Computer/SW/Security, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37630 Activity:high 5/11 I know kchang's de-anonymizer is putting a crimp in your style, but can you people who scp to /etc/motd.public please stop overwriting? \_ A little thought should help you realize that's impossible. \_ A little quality thought should help you realize that: "Overwriting" is being used in the context of "screwing up other people's changes". If you turn off brain and assume the literal definition of overwrite, you might realize you're "overwriting" [literally] /etc/motd.public every time you save it in an editor. Finally, scp users can reduce frequency of overwriting [contextual meaning] by reducing the lag time between the scp "get" and "put". \_ Well, they should be diffing and merging as the final step \_ No, they should be diffing and merging as the final step before putting. This leaves a pretty tiny window for potential overwrites. But can someone tell me how kchang is logging file access? What OS features help with this? I'm curious to know for other possible applications. \_ I signed a pact with Satan \_ Hm, how about this feature. If you put in "-anon" at the end of your post, then my Ashcroft script will not reveal your id? -kchang \_ Note that "tiny window for potential overwrite" is a longwinded way of saying "that's impossible". \_ it shouldn't be hard to modify motdedit to do this. \_ Play nice, or we'll take away your cookies. Or, perhaps, make it so that you can't scp the motd. - almighty root \_ hmm, maybe make it so that the motd is only editable through motdedit and make that a suid file w/ sudo'er perms for everyone. everyone should then be anon, and no more scp. yes, I'm replying to myself. =) \_ I concur. Let's enforce some type of lock/unlock mechanism. \_ Make the trains run on time while you're at it. \_ locking and semaphores - the first step towards fascism. \_ You missed the "enforce" part didn't you? \_ So tell me, if you've done any work with databases or file systems, how useful is a lock that is not enforced? \_ Hey, I didn't realize the motd was that important to you. \_ fuck motdedit. In the ear. It's not a technical problem. \_ Technically, yes it is a technical problem. Access is provided throuh a mechanism that causes corruption. Any time such a mechanism exists and is exploitable, it puts the infrastructure at risk. Asking users nicely not to do it is not a solution Either you live with the corruption or you fix it. As a CS grad, you should know this. \_ Uhm, we're talking about motd...wtf are you talking about? This isn't a general "all locks and synchronization are bad" thread, this is a "motdedit is a shitty technical solution which doesn't even really address all the problems" thread. As a high school grad this should be obvious to you. \_ First of all, tell us why motdedit is broken, and maybe we can come up with something better. \_ Because of patronizing motdedit users. Anything without patronizing evangelists that works would be better. \_ As important as MOTD is for a bunch of users here, most of whom are CS grads, I'd wager any technical problem could be ironed out quickly. Anyways, whatever, this is your guys' problem. I don't use MOTD and everytime I read it, I feel less inclined to put as much time into maintaining this system as I do. I was offering solutions to a real problem of corruption. But hey, if you people like broken, then broken you get. \_ Broken >> supercilious motdedit nazi assholes Go or stay, use it or don't use it, it's a free country, and nobody is particularly pining for you either way. Go, and be happy, my son. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx \_ No offsense, but go fuck yourself. As root, VP, \_ No offsense, but go eat a carrot. As root, VP, and now president of the CSUA my policies on sorrying non-student accounts is much more draconian than that of my predecessors. You may have been a student once, but our ultimate mission is to provide service to current students - and when people make this a hostile environment, I won't blink to kick them off our server. Although I value the insight and participation of alumni in the CSUA, I'd advise you not to fuck it up for everyone. If you disagree with an idea, then voice your reasons - not some immature tirade and rant. This is not your personal soap box, this is a server for use by university students. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx \_ I suggest we first solve the problem of people posting lines longer than 80 columns or people with their tabstop not set at 8. \_ I suggest pliers or a heavy bludgeon. There's nothing like broken bones to keep columns down to a reasonable size. \_ Hm, how about this feature. If you put in "-anon" or some type of identity at the end of your thread, then my Almighty Ashcroft script will not reveal your id? -kchang \_ How about we just squish your ass right now? -anon \_ I wouldn't do that. John Ashcroft is watching you. \_ But...but...I put "-anon" at the end! Pretty please let me be anonymous? -anon \_ Well I haven't implemented it, I'm just soliciting opinions and should there be enough demand, I'll do it. \_ Anyone who has worked with group-writable files has come to the conclusion that locking and logging is important; I'd like to see motdedit (or something functionally similar like RCS) required. -tom \_ Because the motd is mission critical! Seriously, if this were source code, I'd agree. An anonymous posting board where anyone can add or delete? Feh. \_ It blows me away how worked up people get about a lame ass world writeable file. \_ kchang, I like to troll. the motd is too boring. can you include an 'exclude' list of names? ;) we need to revive the motd of better topics!!! \_ Perhaps the de-anonimizer is a good thing. Its like that old Donald Duck count to 10 before you explode cartoon. You have to think about whether or not your really want to write that comment before you do. It makes the discussion more civilized.
 2005/5/10-12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37606 Activity:nil 5/10 Please make sure you read the official motd for important announcements regarding CSUA services and server infrastructure. Thank you - amckee, root staff \_ root! How are you? You should join our elite motd more often. \_ I visit you all the time! I ask you questions! I troll! - jvarga \_ Fix the wall archiver. \_ aaron the great Creator of Wall Archiver, punishes us for our sins by taking it away. He who asks for the wall archiver, shall first repent, then seek aaron
 2005/5/7-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37568 Activity:nil 5/6 Read on for an all-geek, all-tech, all-boring, no fun motd! Thank you Mr. Motd Cleaner Man!
 2005/5/3-4 [Uncategorized/French, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37495 Activity:nil 5/3 Merde. \_ Wasn't me, someone overwrote while ah' wuz in motdedit. -jctwu \_ Vous etes tous un bunch de frickin muppets. -John \_ Vous etes tous un bunch de frickin muppetss. -John
 2005/5/3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37471 Activity:nil 5/3 puta. Sheeeiit. \_ Wasn't me, someone overwrote while ah' wuz in motdedit. -jctwu
 2005/4/25 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37357 Activity:moderate 4/25 I hereby re-file a motion to squish kchang, and this time, keep him squished for good. My charges are as follows: 1997-- kchang uses a script to modify motd. This offense is so serious that the squishage should be permanent. 2003-2004-- kchang's account is unconstitutionally reinstated. The person who unconstitutionally reinstated him should also be squished. 2004-- kchang writes a web interface to expose our sacred motd to the world. This is like taking a private elite file and making it world readable, hence violating the "sharing your soda account with other people" law. 2004-- kchang tries to bring down the entire Berkeley network by fingering motd every second. 2005-- kchang writes a John Ashcroft script, thus violating our right to privacy. Let's reopen this case and this time, don't fuck up. PS this script is written by cat fuck_kchang.txt /etc/motd.public > tmp; cp tmp /etc/motd.public \_ Perhaps you should take this up with root. Bellowing this here is akin to haranguing people in sproul plaza; while you might get a few people (possibly even quite a few) to agree with you, it's still basically just noise. Rather than screaming your woes to a gang of other essentially powerless denizens, why don't you take your evidence of wrongdoing direct to the people that make these sorts of decisions? You might save time and perhaps keep some needless invective off the motd; it already has more than its share.... \_ twink \_ Uhhh, do I know you in person? If not, let's meet somewhere, like a coffee shop or something. Let's talk in person. -kchang
 2005/4/25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37346 Activity:high 4/25 Hey kchang, if you're going to track users, why don't you do something useful, and actually track who the anonymous MOTD censors are? \_ isn't that what the red bars are for? \_ learn to read. "track users" \_ I was referring to this: http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/24 look for the big red bar \_ "edited" with one 't'. And "Certified motd trollers"? Also if it's just guesswork, sure you can put what you want on your personal page, unless you're safari, but then people can also put on the motd that they think guesswork is shit :) -John \_ yeah, it's the red bar, thanks for whoever responded. Also, I addded text motd to HTML motd feature. Now motd "fits in" regardless of 80, 20, or 100 column. Just go to the same page as usual, and click "html mode" on top. It's still experimental so comments welcomed. -kchang \_ I love this. http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/24/?f1=13:33&f2=13:34 has "emarkp?" 15 times. None of those edits are mine. What a great system. -emarkp \_ Ya, that's why there's a ? and it's in light gray. -!kchang \_ But that is so unintuitive! The whole site is TRASH. \_ But you're such a dick. WHAT HAVE YOU BUILT LATELY? -dans \_ Of course, you could just point to the latest diff, and note that ausman is listed as the first author of your post. -nivra \_ heh. That's pretty funny. Thanks for pointing it out. -emarkp \_ you seem to think that the ONLY contribution to this site is user tracking. That is just one of many features. Also, according to the key, it is just saying *maybe* you wrote it. You can think of my site as the Wall Street Journal, the stock ticker section. It simply collects raw data and displays it in a different format, so that you can make your own interpretations. The WSJ doesn't tell you when a stock will go up/down, and neither does my site pinpoint the EXACT person who wrote/deleted motd. You know, we've already gone over this. Whatever. If you can do a better job, please do. \_ The WSJ doesn't try to guess individuals who are buying and selling. Since your site is such a dismal failure at guessing, why not take out the guessing part? -emarkp \_ Now, I'm no fan of kchang's stupid motd logging, but to say that it's worse than the wall street journal is a bit of a stretch. Unless I see some evidence that kchang is actually evil, and is using his website to try to destroy America, I'm going to have to disagree and say that the WSJ is far far worse. I see no such evidence. \_ First of all, you are not doing a good job convincing me to take it off. Secondly, I will put whatever information I want on my personal site. Thirdly, I may consider your request if the majority of the people on my credit/contribution list (it's on the bottom of the page) give me convincing arguments. \_ It's clear to me -- by the question mark after your name in all 15 instances and the light grey shading, and the underlined name of other users in bold preceded by a W: -- that you are ... ehh, never mind. It's not worth talking about. \_ Maybe you have a higher IQ than the average motder. What's your IQ? Just curious... \_ Geez emarkp, cut the dude a break. It's experimental. We all know it's not perfect. -jrleek \_ I get enough anonymous trolls as it is without morons taking stock in the guessing of someone's over-hyped script. The fact that its guessing is so badly wrong makes me wonder why it's included. -emarkp \_ whee... and apparently I wrote this one. -nivra \_ I don't see how it changes anything for you, since you always have the editor open, apparently you write EVERYTHING. Either you're schizophrenic, or you've got pretty good plausible deniability. -jrleek \_ whee... all motd edits are belong to me. -nivra \_ And apparently none belong to me, though I'm suspected in most of them. -emarkp \_ actually, for anyone who wants anonymity, plus courtesy, the current motd script is probably robust enough to modify to use scp from a different machine for the final post-merge version. I should also mention that motdedit doesn't need a lock. motdedit -n, bypasses locks, and merges any conflicts with minimal error. -nivra \_ I alway use motdedit -n, I think the '-n' should be the default behavior. It's fine. -chiry \_ I protest! Motd spying is unconstitutional.
 2005/4/22-25 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37325 Activity:high 4/22 Per ilyas and dbushong's suggestion I modified motd diff: http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/24/?incr=1 Constructive comment/suggestions welcomed here \_ what do the different colors/styles of the listed names mean? \_ color key is here: http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/24 go down \_ Knowing what I have added to the motd today (very little), I can confidently pronounce this as a piece of crap. Or at least that a simple way to defeat it is to edit the motd without a lock and background the editor (reloading inside the editor when I want to add a change). -emarkp \_ I never made the claim it's 100% accurate or undefeatable. In fact it's impossible to track everything unless you make mods to the OS to track writes, or build something on top of root writable motd.public that requires authentication. It's a difficult problem, and that's what makes it interesting. \_ But claiming to indicate users while being inaccurate is disinformation, especially in some of the charged threads that show up here. -emarkp \_ what, science can't be probabilistic? The indicators are merely what the script THINKS has happened, that it has some confidence that underlined/bold/etc users did something, and low confidence that grayed out users did something. That's it. You're right, it's not black or white. If you don't trust the script, that's fine too. But calling it a piece of crap, that is a bit extreme. \_ It's a piece of crap. -tom \_ I count 25 entries today with my name in it. Considering that before this thread I made a whopping 2 edits, yes I think it's a piece of crap. Oh, and sign your name. -emarkp \_ I'll gladly sign my name when you start using motdedit or a shared lock system :) \_ Give me a break. Motdedit is problematic, and faulty. My editor lets me know if the buffer I'm editing has changed on disk so I don't overwrite. That works for me. Sign your name. -emarkp \_ Well. You don't use motdedit because you have your reasons, and I will not sign because I have my reasons. Let's just leave it at that. \_ Then do you have a problem with someone writing a script to divine your identity? -emarkp \_ Not really, why should I care? It interfere with me anyways. \_ No. I guess we're all different \_ The page could use some UI improvements. How about format it like those web forums? What I meant is something like http://forums.slickdeals.net/t94394.html So that each topic is broken into its own colored sections. Also, fonts such as Arial would probably be easier to read. How about move the "clock" to the front in its separate column? At the end of the page, explain the color coding. Remove the extra line above and below the highlighted section. And if you are really bored, reformat each reply so that it is perfectly indented. -chiry \_ And if you yearn for anonymous motd again, http://csua.org/motd \_ I wouldn't mind if I get a shell account.
 2005/4/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37262 Activity:kinda low 4/19 Alright John & tom, you have your opinions and I respect them. I'd like to take this time to hear more constructive and useful comments from you guys, like what specific actions I can do to make Kais Motd less sucky by your high standards. And feel free to spare stuff like 'go stick your head in a pig, twink.' Thanks -kchang \_ Please, please feel free to quote me where I said that it's "sucky". I believe it's your site that classifies my last (only?) comment on it as "UID 37247". Have a look, get back to me. I merely noted that it had munged some entries before. It's fine, but fix the grammatical error. Or are you naming me because I find some of the knee-jerk mob mentality lets-gang-up-on-tom shit to be pretty stupid? Great. -John \_ Wow, kchang outclasses Tom. \_ I'm really not interested in the application, but two obvious improvements would be to get rid of blink and get rid of all the annoying disclaimers. -tom \_ 1) blink gone. 2) Until I can figure out a way to tell random hosers to stop emailing me hate mail because some of the posts are politically incorrect, I will leave disclaimers there. \_ How many of these emails do you get? Why don't you post the logins of these assholes here? \_ i'm pretty sure he means random lackwits from the internets \_ I still think he should post the funniest hatemail he gets to the motd, along with the users email address. It would be fun to taunt them and make go nuts, ala tjb. \_ Duh, stick a password on it that only soda people would know like "csuamotd/csuamotd" or something. \_ I am upset that because of your spying script, I cannot write the childish things that I want to write!! ;) \_ chiry or amirs or someone else-- you can just do: "echo '4/19 Hello world' >> /etc/motd.public" \_ How about dropping the dorky "guess who edited the motd" feature? \_ You mean like where people vote on who he/she thinks posted? \_ Why do you have the disclaimers 10 times? Once is enough, and not in red. Why are threads with disclaimers greyed out while threads without disclaimers in black? Why can't I just enter UID 37247 that John provided above and go to that thread?
 2005/4/18-20 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:37247 Activity:high 4/18 Please stop restoring trolls that tom holub worked so hard to get rid of! Respect tom, as he is older and wiser than you -tom #1 fan \_ "Had you been as wise as bold, Young in limbs, in judgment old, Your answer had not been inscroll'd: Fare you well; your suit is cold." Cold, indeed; and labour lost: Then, farewell, heat, and welcome, frost! Soda, adieu. I have too grieved a heart To take a tedious leave: thus holub part. \_ sorry, kchang, I haven't done any deleting today. Your spy script sucks as badly as your MOTD web site. -tom \_ Tom, you really are an ass. The MOTD web site may not be perfect and kchang may be sort of an odd guy but it is much better of a hack and more of a resource than your twink script or twink points or anything else you have done for the CSUA. \_ Kchang's site is a nice service, and appreciated, but it is not perfect, and it has done a bit of munging before. And let's be honest, do a wc -l /etc/passwd for a rough idea of how many potential h0z3rz you're dealing with. I know Tom can be rough (occasionally justifiably so) but for the same reason I think he's self-confident enough to not go around wantonly nuking motd threads. Get off it. -John \_ I was considering writing an asshole script for the motd, but then tom would rate so high that it would totally skew the graph and I'd have to go logarithmic. \_ You guys should feel sorry for Tom. Anybody who takes the MOTD and wallall so seriously can't have much of a life. He's also so blind to his own problems. \_ I love it when anonymous cowards who know nothing about me comment on my life. -tom \_ Tom, deanonymizing in this case would not add anything to the discussion and would be a distraction. I don't know anything about your life beyond soda, true, but this is a big part of it, clearly. And there is a lot of material here to draw conclusions from. It appears I agree with you on many political issues, but the vigorous and vitriolic pursuit of so many petty squabbles seems pathetic to me. You can do what you want with your day of course, but we all have only 24 hours at our disposal. To spend so much of it picking on the soda little fish seems...again, the best word is pathetic--like the school yard bully who will never amount to much in Real Life. While you may add "character", I believe your conduct over the long run does harm to the soda community. I find your pompous pontificating and especially your dissing the efforts of so many others (while having so few credentials or contributions yourself) especially obnoxious. Choose to ignore that or wear that as a badge of honor. For example, it is clear kchang is a vastly better programmer than you are. As far as I know, using the geek gold standard of actual code written or bugs fixed, rather than just user interface feedback, you are a zero. \- "cipher" --psb \_ Soda community? Uh, right. For those of us who only keep our soda accounts so we can log in and watch or participate in idiotic, spittle-filled flame wars, tom *definitely* adds to the soda community. \_ gee, who's the one spending all of his time pursuing petty squabbles? -tom \_ Pathetic reply, Tom. -!pp \_ How ironic. "anybody who takes the MOTD so seriously" applies only to yourself, not tom. Tom doesn't post all that much as a rule, but since he's signs his name you jump on him more easily. Just like you dumbshits did every time ilyas posted. Which is partly why I'm anonymous. Although sometimes I wonder why I bother spending time here. I occasionally learn interesting things though. \_ Too bad. I actually support deletion of political trolls. \_ Too bad. I actually support deletion of trolls. All hail to whoever's doing that. Keep it up.
 2005/3/30-31 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36975 Activity:kinda low 3/30 +80 char lines deleted. \_ Jesus, haven't you heard of "less -S"? It will bother you less as text does NOT get wrapped to the next line. \_ Allah, then how do you read the discarded characters? \_ the right arrow key to scroll to the right? like any real editor do? You can even configure the scroll amount, default is a bit too much for my taste... \_ Oops. I didn't actually try out -S before I spoke. I just relied on the man page which reads "the remainder of a long line is simply discarded." \_ slouie, you're 85+ char now, and still violating 80. Oh well, who cares, it looks perfect on my baby Kais Motd: http://csua.com \_ FYI, my less alias "less -iS -#8" \_ +80 char lines will be automatically deleted, without regard for subject matter.
 2005/3/28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36917 Activity:kinda low 3/28 Who was it that was looking for engineers for the Yahoo small buisiness group? I have a resume to send you. --jwm \_ Try /csua/pub/jobs/yahoo-search \_ That's something different --jwm \_ god, just Kais Motd it. \_ See below:
 2005/3/26-29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:36901 Activity:moderate 3/26 I want to learn a martial art for health reasons. I took Tai Chi once (a few month's worth) but otherwise have no experience. Keeping fit, ease of learning, and practicality (I'd like to be able to defend myself) are important - in that order. Which discipline should I learn? I am a little Chinese. \_ You might consider looking into Wing Tsun with Simon Mayer, or Ju Jitsu. There are several JJ people here on motd -- perhaps one or more of them can be persuaded to talk about their club. \_ I guess it's a bit impractical for self-defense, but I did kendo for a while, and really enjoyed it. I found the people to be generally pretty enthusiastic and friendly towards newcomers, and the sport to be a good balance between learning self-control and concentration, and screaming and jumping around a lot and beating on people with sticks. Only drawback is the price of the equipment. -John \_ Where are you located right now? Your ethnicity has nothing to do with what you study, btw. There are a lot of arts out there, most of which will offer you what you need. UC Berkeley has a fairly decent martial arts program - Email me offlist if you have any questions regarding my experiences with that program. -chaos \_ I was told I could not study Brazilian or Israeli Martial Arts. -Chinese \_ Unless this is a troll, or they were kidding, that's illegal. \_ Some other idiot added the Chinese part. I don't care enough to remove it. I am in the Los Angeles area now, btw. \_ How could any sodan be so gullilbe as to take that as part of a serious question? If that jerk added "I am a little jew/arab/*" instead, would it at least raise some alarm in your head? \_ You may not know this but a lot of sodans are little Chinese. \_ [stupid] \_ I don't give a fuck.
 2005/3/26-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36895 Activity:nil 3/26 The motd has been so censorship-free during spring break. This makes me think the motd censor is a student - but that's not possible! Why would a non alum read the the motd, let alone care about it enough to censor it so often? \_ some alum are still students \_ We are the old, wise curmudgeons who will harass you towards the path of righteousness in the real world (and maybe hire you.) -John
 2005/3/24 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36858 Activity:kinda low 3/24 MUAHAHAHHAH! soda [2] wc -l /etc/motd.public 772 /etc/motd.public \_ Stop tempting fate!!! \_ the motd censors must be taking time off during spring break. \_ Nuclear launch detected.
 2005/3/18-20 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36758 Activity:moderate 3/18 Get yer weekly culture fix. Art Show @ The Clinic, 2801 25th St.: http://clinicsf.com -dans \_ hey dans, you're a pretty cute guy. Are you attached to anyone? Here's a bit of info about myself. I'm single, clean, and neat. I like opera, I love fine arts, I love cats (they're soooo adorable!), exotic cuisines (ever tried http://www.asiasf.com and everything that is unusual or exciting. Would you like to have lunch or coffee some time? If so, email charlie1982@yahoo.com \_ wow, i am speechless. -!dans \_ jealous? \_ that sodans can be this blunt/brave. ;) \_why not? it's not like they'll get pregnant and stuck with each other. \_ wait, so just to clarify, is this... a gay wanted ad on motd? \_ I wouldn't consider asiasf to be exotic cuisine per se, though I've never been there, but I'm told it's pretty amusing as tranny bars go. Anyway, if this is actually serious and not just motd wankery, drop me an email. -dans \_ A good friend of mine is actually a bartender at asiasf. Even if it is far from what my lifestyle is like, I will say that it is a fun place to hang out if you are just looking for a fun and interesting evening. -phale \_ I'm surprised this thread has hung around this long. No email received thus far, guess it was just motd wankery. Pity, flattering while it lasted. -dans \_ gosh, I'm so sorry... have you tried http://queer.berkeley.edu or http://gayfriendfinder.com? Motd isn't exactly a gay-friendly place.
 2005/3/14-15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36688 Activity:moderate 3/14 Hey could someone point me to a copy of the nukl3ar b1ff ascii art including Totoro commmenting in the foreground? I looked at cowsay and it doesn't appear to be an option there. Thanks. -dans \_ http://csua.com/?entry=36687 http://csua.com/?entry=27854 http://csua.com/?entry=21368 http://csua.com/?entry=18074 http://csua.com/?entry=16746 http://csua.com/?entry=14927 http://csua.com/?entry=14926 http://csua.com/?entry=14928 Between mehlhaff's comprehensive archiver and kchang's sucky but easy to use archiver, I'll use the latter any time. kchang>>mehlhaff \_ Cool, thanks much. -dans Thanks to kchang's kais motd: \_ What does kchang's broken motd stuff have to do with a nuking? \_ See post immediately below. \_ why is it broken?
 2005/3/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36687 Activity:nil 50%like:38632 Thanks to kchang's kais motd: __/~*##\$%@@@******~\-__ /f=r/~_-~ _-_ --_.^-~--\=b\ 4fF / */ .o ._-__.__/~-. \*R\ /fF./ . /- /' /|/| \_ * *\ *\R\ (iC.I+ '| - *-/00 |- \ ) ) )|RB (I| ( [ / -|/^^\ | ) /_/ | *)B (I(. \  \ \m_m_|~__/ )_ .-~ F/ \b\\=_.\_b-+-~x-_/ .. ,._/ , F/ ~\_\= = =-*###%#x==-# *=- =/ ~\**U/~ | i i | ~~~\===~ You know, we totoro | I I \\ do not appreciate this. / // i\ \\ ( [ (( I@) ))) ) / \_\_VYVU_/ || * | |\|\ /* /I\ *~~\ | OO\ /~-/* / \ \ ~~M~\ | /^^\| ____----=~ // /WVW\* \|\ ***===--___ |_m_m/
 2005/3/5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36536 Activity:nil 3/5 Welcome back soda! To check out motd you missed go to http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/intellidiff/?incr=1
 2005/3/3-4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36505 Activity:high 3/3 A great place to talk about politics: http://csua.org/motd Hello, my name is Motd, and I approve this message. \_ Seems to be kinda broken. \_ and deserted. \_ How so? I know not many people use it, but I'm curious to hear what's broken. --dbushong \_ Ah, I see. I think most of it's just that 2nd post, where someone pasted content, completed with existing \_'s directly from the motd. I guess I should trap for that. --dbushong \_ I admit, I didn't look very long. The other odd thing was the [1,2] beside the first post. It had some effect, but I'm not sure what the purpose was.. \_ Documentation, Shmocumentation. Posters can edit their own post, but the old versions are always saved and available to see what revisionist history the poster's up to. --dbushong
 2005/3/2-3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36500 Activity:insanely high 3/2 Motd is 50K long, go motd go! Go motd go! \_ Why do people say "Go motd go!"? Why not just "Go motd!"? \_ "Go Johnny go go go!" \_ I'm going to guess that it has something to do with what you heard as a child. Take the famous Inspector Gadget cartoon song. It just sounds better when you sing it as "Go Gadget Go!" But yeah I agree that all languages [that I personally know of] have numerous examples of redundant verbiage. \_ While "Go Gadget Go!" was in the theme song, the more memorable phrase was "Go Go Gadget X". I always though the Go X Go! was a homage to Speed Racer, "Go Speed Racer, Go!" \_ I think the lines in the theme song are "go gadget go": Inspector Gadget.. Oo Hoo.. Inspector Gadget. Inspector Gadget.. Oo Hoo.. Inspector Gadget. Go gadget go! Go gadget go! Inspector Gadget.. Oo Hoo.. Inspector Gadget. \_ Ha! You don't think about it as a kid, but now that I'm grown up, the lyrics are STUPID!!! \_ Here he comes here comes Speed Racer (ooh, ahh! ooh, ahh!) Here he comes here comes Speed Racer, he's a demon on wheels \_ I'll get you next time, Gadget...
 2005/2/27-3/1 [Computer/SW/Languages, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36447 Activity:low 2/26 I've been a slashdot reader for longer than I care to admit, but I'm wondering about other sites out there that maybe have a higher signal to noise ratio, and/or are more programming-focused. \_ It's called CSUA MOTD if jwang did a better job nuking political trolls. Email jwang@csua.berkeley.edu if you want him to do a better job. \_ Fuck you and die, motherfucker. \_ The CSUA motd, of course! \_ And a double dumbass on you, too!
 2005/2/24-25 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36403 Activity:very high 2/24 Ilya and Brett, why do you love the motd? Estimated motd edit frequency by users: * 28 ilyas * 22 brett * 11 jctwu * 6 dgies * 9 jrleek * 3 scotsman ecchang john jwang danh \_ your script is weak. this is 3rd entry I have made all month. - danh \_ the above is based on last 24 hours, and yes my script sucks but it's better than nothing. If you have a better snooping technology that you'd like to share, email me -kchang \_ No, it's not better than nothing. Incorrect information is less useful than no information. -emarkp \_ yeah just like the Bible. WHY THE FUCK DID YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE CENSOR THIS? \_ it is when I control the information, muhahaha -kchang \_ Hi, just thought I d drop by and point out that you are a fool. -- ilyas \_ if I'm a fool then you're a bigger fool. I believe you spend a lot more time on motd than me. Get a life ilyas. -kchang \_ You've GOT to be kidding. \_ You don't even understand why you were called a fool, which is fairly impressive. -- ilyas \_ you are on top of the pile. \_ Hey, aren't you guys in the same small department in the same school? \_ Yup. -- ilyas \_ Can you see eachother from your respective terminals? \_ better yet, can you set up a MOTD down there and leave us alone? No, and I've never talked to ilyas, although I've heard -/ a lot about him, like he's a very condescending character. I'm still waiting for him to insult me \_ Hah! You've heard this in the department? -- ilyas in person. It's bound to happen one of these days. By the way this reminds me of a joke where all the inmates in this jail have heard every single jokes possible in the world and memorized them, and in fact, they simply refer to them as numbers. For example, one of the inmates would say "Joke #36403" and all the inmates would burst into laughters. Likewise ilyas could borrow this idea and simply insult me via #'s, where 1=Lazy Bitch, 2=You're a fool, 3=Get a life, etc etc. \_ h07 42n ch1x! \_ Your script is signicantly more useful than nothing. We all have a brain and can decide how accurate it is, and perhaps future incarnations will be. It's not like we'd use this log to invade Iraq or squish jwang. Thanks kchang! \_ Are you suggesting the mighty kchang is WRONG? http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/intellidiff \_ the above is posted by lye \_ The obvious problem is that his method (kchang, what IS the method?) only knows for sure about (a subset of?) those who write the motd in the way that's logged by his thing. \_ yeah I'm offering you a lower bound on the number of people who modify, vs. having no bound at all. So what's new? How would you get a tighter bound? -kchang \_ Why do you give a shit? \_ motd gives me inspiration for a PhD thesis \_ Funny. Given the number of phd theses(including mine) that are being delayed by time wasting on the motd, I'm glad to see that the motd might actually have some positive effect on someone's phd. \_ I think that's the scariest thing I've seen all day. \_ not sure lye, why do YOU love the motd? \_ Because it is so full of love. --lye \_ You have a 40% error. -named person \_ dgies, tell us which ones and maybe it'll be fixed \_ And non-out-of-context Ohio Players orgasms and things. -John \_ I love it because it lets me waste taxpayer money with impunity! -- ilyas \_ Communist! \_ There is such a thing as "tax" in communism? \_ In Soviet Russia... oh never mind. \_ Man, that has got to be the world's slowest way to waste taxpayer money. \_ A million monkeys on a million discussion boards will eventually something something... \_ You have a 40% error. -named person \_ dgies, tell us which ones and maybe it'll be fixed \_ Does your script also measure people who don't use /csua/bin/me? \_ no it only measures nice people. (  \| . . | \ . \: . F \ . L:. .-. . ' / . . :. / ) \ _ ' | . .  .-(-"')' ) ' L . .__.-' | ' |.' . \ .  !_' .|-. .. : \ -._ . "' )::'' . L -. . _.':::' J J -._ _ -' ):' . L F -. .-' ).. | J . -' .-'):: J F -._ -' _.' :' L J J""" )' J J \ F .L F : \ / | J ::'' . .| F : Y L J | : | J : : | J \_ GAAAAAYYYYY \_ Oh that's sick. \_ wow that's remarkably effective. you fucker. I'm at work here. \_ And yet you still pulled the image up in an editor to add your comments? \_ How about one with a man and a woman!! \_ keywords: ascii art gay masterbate masterbation
 2005/2/23-24 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36383 Activity:high 2/23 So why do people seem so uncomfortable about answering questions that seem to come from coursework? Is it about making students suffer, or because of an assumption that they'll learn more by doing it the hard way? The question below is something I hazily remember and it's something I'd like to know, just to stay sharp. I think NOT answering it, as tends to happen, might send the wrong message to student members. \_ Well, the question below is different from actual homework problems. I am sure you can see the problem with doing someone's homework for them. -- ilyas \_ Remember your Physics professor/TA telling you that you learn by doing and getting stuck with the problem, not by getting spoon-fed the answer? That wasn't all baloney. As for soda, the ideal responses are hints and things of that sort, although many responses are not always ideal (in particular, the ones that end with, "Lazy bitch.") \_ Amusingly enough, I seemed to have been the only poster that actually solved the problem, and gave an actually useful hint (splitting the array into 3 sums). But I am sure all your bitching about me telling off the lazy undergrad bitch is far more ideal. -- ilyas \_ Are you talking about the contiguous int's in an array? My CS170 book (Udi Manber) gave a solution using two sums, not 3. \_ Heh, you can think of it as either 2 sums or 3 (the third sum is what's left). -- ilyas \_ Asking anyone outside of the class can be considered cheating in some classes/professors these days. \_ Why do you say this? I've only heard something this strict for take-home midterms/finals; homework seems to be > 90% "as long as you don't copy". \_ In all the classes I have ever TAed, the understanding is that you do the homework yourself. -- ilyas \_ You're a unionized state employee. Awesome. \_ By "the understanding is", do you mean the TA or professor says "You should do the homework by yourself", or do you mean they say, "You are not permitted to ask someone else for help. For this course, it is considered cheating."? \_ I consider the latter the legal codification of the former, and in practice, I consider them equivalent from the 'what you should morally do' point of view. Certainly I would feel entitled to call anyone in violation of either 'lazy bitch.' -- ilyas \_ But you know it can't be policed. So I think if this policy is in place then the grade should not depend on the correctness of the homework. \_ You can't perfectly police takehome finals either. Or GREs (if the perpetrator is clever). Or speed limit laws. Or anything, really. What's your point? -- ilyas \_ So have you given up on your "thread order enforcement"? I see you're active today, but I also see threads being selectively deleted "out of order". -meyers \_ I ll retaliate if some thread I care about disappears 'prematurely.' You can do all the other ones, Robby. -- ilyas \_ Those other things are a lot better policed. I dunno, I'm not in school anymore. But I think the point of homework is to learn, and discussing the problem with others can help. \_ I agree that discussing can help, especially for math proofs. But motd is a bit of a one-sided discussion. -- ilyas \_ What do you mean by "motd is a bit of a one-sided discussion"? \_ When someone asks for homework help on the motd, it's not a real discussion. It's one party fishing for clues while contributing nothing, really. 'Discussion' for these things has to be face to face, imo. Also, it's a little annoying because I have never ever seen anyone admit upfront they are asking for homework help on the motd. It's always 'hey, here's a neat problem!' That already seems dishonest from the start. -- ilyas \_ I would say the majority of users have problems with students asking the Internet at-large to do their homework. The same majority also feels it is dishonest for students to pretend not to be students. There is no disagreement there. \_ Hey ilyas, can we call you an "uptight dickhead?" \_ The difference between the two is obvious. Lazy bitch. ilyas, it's good that you're concerned about cheating. -/ Luckily, most HW assignments are less than 5-10% of the total grade, and in the case of most grad schools, they're worth nothing. they're worth nothing. My take is this. If students want to cheat on the HW, let them cheat! When they take the exam, their grades will reflect their lack of efforts they've put into their study anyways.
 2005/2/21-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36356 Activity:high Edit_by:dlong 2/21 Seeing as most of politburo is new to the CSUA (and even the university) this semester, they havn't been "indoctrinated" (if that's an appropriate word) into the history and culture of the CSUA. As such, there's a bit of culture change going on through their work. I'm curious as to what people think about the historical culture versus the newer culture. Should the CSUA maintain its "geeky" roots with respect to things like the office and web page, or migrate to the more "133+" look that some want? For example, the office has inherited some "loud" furniture, and there's been talk of revamping the website. I am not one to be stuck in the past, but at the same time, there are things which maintain a certain "culture" within the organization. \_ how many of them joined because of babelicious karen? \_ Do both. For starter, get them to mesg y, nwrite, and most importantly, wall. It's always good for the young and the old to keep in touch with each other. From there, the noobs can choose which traditions they'd like to keep while the old can keep up with what's new. FoodP and volleyball tournaments between the old and the new would also be a great idea. \_ What makes CSUA unique? What does CSUA have that other organizations don't have? To name a few, relaxed atmosphere, informal non-uptight organization (like UCSEE), non-exclusionary (XCF), and above all else, the amazing synergy between alumni and new students. I think that as long as you can keep these unique characteristics in CSUA, it doesn't matter how the web site looks or how you rearrange the office. \_ Has the risk tourney taken place anytime recently? -John \_ there was RISK playing last week, no tourney in a while though. \_ We got sick of Berkeley Gaming Club guys showing up and cheating. -tom \_ What happened? How do you cheat at Risk? \_ Give yourself extra armies when making change. (It helps to play the Australia strategy in every game, so all your armies are on the same place and are hard to keep track of). -tom \_ The CSUA today seems like a much more jolly place than, say, the motd. I don't know whether you're actually around the office much; but it seems to me that the organization is doing quite well. I've only been a member for 3 odd years, so I may not be well versed in traditions, but if the goal of the CSUA is to be a place where geeks who love computers can congregate, socialize, and every so often be productive, then I don't think there's that much too complain about. \_ take out tom ilyas aaron, and everything old and smell, from motd and wall, then jolly you'll get all.
 2005/2/19-21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36246 Activity:high 2/19 Did you, as an undergrad, watch Animaniacs, listen to Beatles, and sing Russian peasant drinking songs on Hearst? If you did, can you say something about yourself, like when you were there, who you're with, etc? I'm trying to locate old friends. ok thx. \_ yes, yes, no(at least I don't remember,but maybe I was too drunk) \_ Budu zhdat' tebja zaranee U izluchiny reki. Prihodi zhe na svidanie, Ja prochtu tebe stihi, -- Pro podruzhek pro veselyh I zatejlivyh rebjat, Pro tebja, moja ljubimaja, Srazu tri stiha podrjad. \_ someone please translate this??? \_ Everyday I'd watch Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, and Batman on Fox from 3:30 to 5:00. If time didn't allow I'd watch them on pre-recorded VHS tape. WEB (Workstations at Evan's Basement) was too far at night, so I'd dial into Berkeley's free PPP connection and telnet to http://soda.berkeley.edu using my state of the art 33Mhz 386 with 16M RAM via my blazingly fast 14.4K baud modem. From there I'd do a lot of stuff, like checking email, reading motd, and stuff like that. I'd listen to Arthur Rubenstein playing Chopin from a tape set using my dad's old Panasonic tape player. Usually there were a lot of work to be done, but since they're not urgent, I'd play DikuMUD, chat/nwrite/ytalk to people online while listening to Chopin's Noctures (on cassette tapes), on rainy, quiet, somewhat lonely nights. That was over a decade ago. I'm now ssh'ed into soda (now known as http://csua.berkeley.edu) using my P4 3Ghz 1G RAM machine via broadbnd. There are a lot of things I have to do but since they're not urgent, I'm just checking motd, gmail, surfing, and chatting people on AIM and Yahoo Messenger. Yes, it's a raining, quiet, somewhat lonely night, and I'm listening to Chopin's Noctures, on MP3. It's amazing how some things have changed, and how some things haven't. I guess when you get old you start to treasure things that do not change, or things that seemed insignificant at the time, but now you have this strange fond memories of, like logging into soda. I love soda and I hope it will never go away. -old man \_ I'm not sure whether I should join in the reminiscing or mock you. \_ both is acceptable \_ Did you ever get a girlfriend all those years? \_ I was across the street drinking myself to sweet oblivion.
 2005/2/18-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36228 Activity:high 2/18 Why don't you just email your complaint to jwang directly rather \_ We like to air our diry laundry here on the motd. \_ Destruction of the MOTD (by repeated deletion, jive, or any other method) is severly frowned upon and will result in the termination of your account. \_ Do we have proof it was jwang? \_ The politburo doesn't need proof to investigate. Then he has to either admit to it, lie about it, or ignore them. \_ Even a confession isn't enough to get squished anymore. http://csua.com/?entry=32694 -meyers \_ [ meyers reply deleted to spite him. -- ilyas ] \_ Wow, that's twice I've been nuked, though you're only owning up to it once. Is this part of your "inverse golden rule"? -meyers \_ [ ilyas reply deleted to spite him. -- !meyers ] \_ Fuck you for forging my login. Bitch. Not even ilyas would stoop so low. -meyers ilyas would stoop so low. -jwang \_ I am a god! A god, damn you! -meyers \_ You post to the motd with the trolls you have, not the intelligent discussion you ought to have. -tom \_ Sometimes, it's more fun to play with the trolls -- expectations are so much lower. \_ [ no sense being redundant. ]
 2005/2/17-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36214 Activity:high 2/17 jwang, you are one persistent sunavabitch. do you have anything other than partially nuking motd especially ones on politics as your primary hobby? everything ok with your life lately, ala gf, job, etc? if you need help just ask cuz i'm concerned about you. libraries? Personally, I couldn't care less what their problems are. \_ Some people are just assholes. Are you concerned about the personal lives of the rightwing assholes who want to censor books from libraries? Personally, I couldn't care less what their problems are. \_ The motd should be for CS-related questions. At least that's what the rules are. All political-related crap belong in a Yahoo groups, or whatever. \_ Oh wow. You and kchang should get married by an SF mayor and have beautiful adopted children. -- ilyas \_ First of all, fuck you. Second of all, many of the people who provide detailed useful technical advice on the motd are the same people who are the most active in the politics threads. Take away the politics, sex, humor, and random cultural discussions and you take away the interest factor that brings people back to the motd. I predict that the dickheads like you who don't seem to care about anything but CS are also the people with the least to contribute technically. \_ The rules regarding posting to motd are readily available from the csua website. Your interpretation is actually neither justifiable from the rules or by established policy. motd is a justifiable from the rules nor by established policy. motd is a community that has certain social norms. Dictating what those norms should be based on your own predilections independant of the standards of the majority of the people in the community is egocentric and stupid at best. If you don't like the standards of the motd community, then I suggest starting your own forum somewhere else in usenet: registering your very own domain is quite affordable these days, and I suspect hosting a single world-readable file would be no big deal. You could even set up your very own world-readable file here on soda and post the path here on motd. In short, there are many solutions to your problem, here on motd. In short, there are many solutions to your problem, both technical and social, but you seem to have chosen the most egoistic and childish one of the bunch. Perhaps you should reevaluate your participation here. \_ nice troll, you got 40 lines of response to a sarcastic comment. -tom \_ Could you please post these rules? You can't, because that go at this thread. But yeah, I readily I admit that part is not in them. \_ Hi jwang! Thanks for responding. \_ You know, I'm not jwang and I do this. Are you sure you're writing to who you think you should be writing to? \_ Why don't you just search and replace from his name to yours then, asshole? \_ I've logged jwang doing it also. That you also do it doesn't imply jwang doesn't or that he's not more egregious than you are. - !pp \_ Sometimes motds need to get nuked. Sometimes you need to get laid and go away. \_ I've also seen it, repeatedly, for most of the past year.`
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