Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 34127
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2025/07/08 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2004/10/14-15 [Recreation/Food] UID:34127 Activity:insanely high
10/14   Small quote from http://economist.com article about mcdonalds:

        "The company is now testing small hand-held devices, which can be
        used like electronic clip-boards by those making the rounds.
        Failures to check, say, the temperature inside a refrigerator
        (the devices are fitted with a probe) or to scan a location barcode
        (they have a scanner too) when checking the play area, will be recorded.
        If too many incomplete checks build up, the device can automatically
        alert the local manager by ringing his mobile phone."

        Why am I suddenly thinking of that short story about fastfood
        management software taking over the world? -- ilyas
        \_ because you're an idiot?
           \_ Do I need to use defending Ilyas, wrong as he sometimes is, as
              an excuse to tear you a new bunghole yet again, anonymous motd
              drug addict?  -John
              \_ hehe, you said 'bunghole'
           \_ w00t!
        \_ ilyas, I thought you said that Marshall Brain thing was off-base.
           Did you change your mind?
           \_ Yeah, I thought it was complete crack, but I still thought of it.
                -- ilyas
              \_ Check out Fast Food Nation if you're at all interested.  I
                 think the Marshall Brain thing is crack too, but that book
                 shows how McDonald's is a real pioneer in this sort of thing.
                 They call it "deskilling," and they are very very good at it.
                 The less skill is required for a job, the more easily
                 replaceable the workers become.
                 \_ I steer clear of both McDonalds and books like Fast Food
                    Nation (both make me ill).  I think deskilling is good, not
                    bad, because it increases overall productivity which in the
                    long term is a good thing.  I don't think McDonalds is
                    sinister.  On a slightly unrelated note, I was watching
                    this nature show which was talking about how adaptable the
                    bears are.  These days, bears don't even hunt anymore, they
                    just hang out near dumps and eat junk food leftovers.  And
                    since it's highly nutricious, they pack on weight for the
                    since it's highly nutritious, they pack on weight for the
                    hibernation, have more young, and in general do very well.
                    I found that very funny.  Someone should clue in those
                    bears about the vast evils of junk food. -- ilyas
                    \_ I made no judgement about deskilling good or bad.  I do
                       think you're being close-minded about the book though.
                       Give it a shot.  It isn't just a partisan rant, there's
                       a ton of interesting facts in it.  You will probably
                       disagree with his ultimate conclusions (that fast food
                       has changed our culture in negative ways, and with the
                       blessing and active help of the government), but you
                       may learn a lot of stuff too.  He doesn't necessarily
                       argue that McDonald's is "sinister."  He's far too
                       smart for that. [sigh, restored]
                       \_ You don't understand.  I _don't_ think it's partisan
                          trash.  I don't want to read it because I think it
                          will make me physically ill (it talks about a fair
                          number of icky things).  -- ilyas
                          number of icky things).  I haven't thought about
                          the overall effect of fast food on our society.
                          I can certainly see how it affected us badly.  But
                          at the same time you can't underestimate the positives
                          of cheap nutricious food.  I think the positives and
                          of cheap nutritious food.  I think the positives and
                          the negatives are simply incommensurable in this case.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ Fast food is neither cheap nor nutricious (unless
                          \_ Fast food is neither cheap nor nutritious (unless
                             you're including $1.10 chinese food, which is
                             just cheap).
                             \_ See above about bears. -- ilyas
                                \_ This doesn't prove that fast food is
                                   nutritious; it says nothing about the
                                   long term health effects on the bears. Also,
                                   without a substantiating source with real
                                   scientific credibility, this is anecdotal
                                   and has no logical place in a serious
                                   discussion.
                                   \_ I use 'nutritious' in the good old
                                      fashioned sense of 'has calories, you
                                      eat it -- you get fatter' sense.
                                      I don't have any hard scientific evidence
                                      on long term effects of fast food on
                                      bears.  But I am not sure you can hold it
                                      against me, since no one will fund this
                                      kind of research.  People who study
                                      bears know bears do very well on
                                      junk food, you can disbelieve them if you
                                      want.  The issue with bears is they
                                      need lots of calories before winter,
                                      which junk food provides in spades (i.e.
                                      it's nutritious and plentiful).  Also,
                                      to a bear, a shorter lifespan but more
                                      offspring is a good tradeoff.  -- ilyas
                                      \_ Bears are far more versatile than we
                                         are so I wouldn't be surprised if they
                                         do fine on junk food. Their preferred
                                         behavior is to forage anyway, as
                                         opposed to "hunt". However, it's also
                                         the case that human activities have
                                         reduced many natural bear food sources
                                         and shrunk the amount of contiguous
                                         habitat available for their natural
                                         activities. I don't really see much
                                         significance to this whole bear thing.
                                         The lifespan comment is ridiculous.
                                         \_ The significance to this whole
                                            bear thing is that under my
                                            definition, junk food is very
                                            nutritious -- it lets a giant
                                            of an animal go without food for
                                            an entire season very easily.
                                            This kind of nutritiousness is a
                                            huge positive in many
                                            situations for people, say people
                                            who are extremely poor and
                                            malnourished.  (They may not be
                                            able to hibernate, but they
                                            certainly get a lot of value out
                                            of this kind of food).
                                            Sure, it doesn't
                                            have fiber, vitamins, essential
                                            minerals, etc. etc.  But you take
                                            care of that AFTER you make sure
                                            you don't croak from calorie lack.
                                            I am just saying the crude
                                            advantages of junk food are
                                            significant and cannot be
                                            discounted.  Comment about
                                            'ridiculousness' ignored due to
                                            lack of explanation and because
                                            attacks are lame.  Btw, I don't
                                            think there is any difference
                                            in food versatility between us
                                            and bears inherently -- we are
                                            both omnivores.  Any sort of
                                            heightened sensitivity of ours
                                            is probably due to the fact
                                            that natural selection stopped
                                            for us, and our sensitive
                                            stomachs aren't dying out
                                            anymore. -- ilyas
                                 Well you also didn't explain the lifespan _/
                                 thing... it would seem your comment applies
                                 to humans as well. And bears can eat grass
                                 and other stuff we can't, so presumably can
                                 fill some needs that way. I also think your
                                 assumptions about the inherent "value" in
                                 this food may not be realistic when compared
                                 to the cost of cooking food from basics,
                                 leaving aside the whole "hidden costs"
                                 argument someone else alluded to. (I think
                                 also bears can live entirely on meat/fat,
                                 like carnivores, and unlike humans. Though
                                 I've heard weird things about Inuits.)
                                 \_ He's redefined 'nutritious' and then
                                    argued from that stand point.  It
                                    recontextualizes the discussion, and
                                    imposes far less vigorous constraints on
                                    the point he's trying to argue.  As long
                                    as you let that happen, he's going to
                                    'win' the debate.  It's a clever tactic,
                                    though it's not a strictly logical one.
                                    I also like how he ignores the fact that
                                    bears and humans have significantly
                                    different needs from their food, so
                                    equating humans to bears is also a far
                                    less rigorous point to have to 'prove'
                                    especially considering that no facts to
                                    back up the initial opinion about junk food
                                    being 'good' for bears have been provided.
                                    The assertion that no one's done a study
                                    or research into the impact of human waste
                                    on bears is almost laughably unlikely.
                                    \_ Nutrition = a process by which organisms
                                       obtain energy (nasa.gov).  Nutritious =
                                       providing nourishment (dict).  I am
                                       redefining nothing, I am making concrete
                                       what I feel is a reasonably vague
                                       definition.  I can just feel the
                                       venom dripping from your fangs, you
                                       poor sap.  When did you become so
                                       cheerless and morose?  I don't know
                                       definition.  I don't know
                                       what shadowy evil you think I am up to
                                       with my evil evil debating tactics,
                                       but all I am trying to say is that
                                       high calorie food does a lot of good
                                       in certain rubber-hits-the-road
                                       situations, and the harm junk food
                                       causes has to be balanced again this
                                       good.  P.S.  Read my assertion about
                                       what's not getting funded again.  I
                                       think you are trying to pull a fast
                                       one here. -- ilyas
                                       \_ Nice.  I've reduced you to ad
                                          hominem attacks.  You've rather
                                          misrepresented me in your
                                          interpretation of my attitudes and
                                          motives.  If it means this much to
                                          you to be right, then okay.  I've
                                          challenged your style of agrument,
                                          and you've responded by
                                          comparing me to a snake.  Okaaaaay.
                                          \_ Ok, fair enough.  What about the
                                             rest? -- ilyas
                      |      \_ Well, one definition of nutritious would be
                      |         'contains calories and protein' which I'd say
                      |         is generally true.
                                \_ This is specious and largely irrelevant.
                             \_ High fat, high salt, low fiber == not healthy.
                                However they're not forcing people to eat it.
                                \_ Huh?  I've never made any claims about
                                   anyone being forced to eat anything.  What
                                   are you talking about here?
                             \_ Fast food is massively subsidized in many
                                ways, if we had to pay the actual costs the
                                system wouldn't work -- see oil.
                                   \_ I'm just saying, people buy the unhealthy
                                      food in droves knowing it's unhealthy.
                                      Given this desire I don't think the
                                      industry is at fault. I'd be in favor
                                      of restricting child-targetted marketing.
                                      Oh and I wasn't really talking to you,
                                      just elaborating on the general subject.
                Here you go.
                <DEAD>www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Health/What's_In_Meat_FFN.html<DEAD>
2025/07/08 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/8     

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