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| 7/9 |
| 2003/10/20-21 [Reference/Religion] UID:10694 Activity:high |
10/19 Has anyone ever heard of "The Landmark Forum"? My friend has strongly
recommended that I attend their classes. I have heard of mostly good
things about it. However, I think they might be bias. Anyone here
has any experiences and/or comments?
\_ I have had, at current count, six of my friends go through Landmark
or one of its equivalents. My conclusion is that it's "mostly
harmless". They've all gone through the same stage of intense
enthusiasm followed about a year or two later by retrospection. I
think it is very cult-ish and their focus on parents is monocultural
hocum but it did really help some of my more stressed our friends
find a kind of grip on everyday life and made them easier to hang
around with. -- ulysses
\_ Before or after you clubbed them in the head a few times?
\_ After. --ulysses
\_ http://www.100megsfree4.com/apostate
\_ It's just "est", repackaged under a different name. - danh
\_ est. 70s-80s era self help movement with odd cultish
aspects. The founder fled the country and then his
brother took over and renamed it 'The Landmark Forum'.
I remember reading about a lot of Microsoft employees
who were into it which made me happy. go read
http://skepdic.com/est.html - danh
\_ Eastern Standard Time?
\_ Electric Shock Therapy!
\_ The father of a girl I dated was a speaker for this and really
into it... it always seemed like a bit of a crock to me... I
found this to be an interesting account of one session: (albeit
from a jesus freak)
http://tektonics.org/est.html
btw, her father's name was "Alan Cahn" (mentioned in the article)
\_ A cult is a cult is a cult. If that's really your friend you
would do something to help them escape.
\_ A friend of mine went. She loved it. She thought it was the
answer to life, love, and everything. She then started getting all
her friends to go to help them (even if they didn't want helping).
When she tried to get my g/f to go, my g/f finally relucantly
agreed. My g/f was asked to not attend again when she kept
questioning everything they said. Sounds like a cult (or at least
a pyramid scheme that feeds on peoples low self-esteem) to me. If
it does help people, great, but not everyone needs to be helped!!
\_ If people want spiritual help, why can't they seek out the local
church instead of going to these new age nonsense? Jesus is the
one true God. Jesus will help you and save you. Put your faith
on Jesus and no one else.
\_ I just love you guys!
\_ I thought the Nicene Creed said Jesus was NOT God?
\_ Of one being with the father.
\_ How about you actually try to explain that? The whole
son of god, is god, dying somehow affecting sins, etc.?
\_ Talk to the Pope. This is the motd.
\_ are you honestly curious or just trolling?
\_ I'm trolling. Because they can't explain it. None
of it makes any sense whatsoever. The only way to
accept it is to just shut off your brain. The same
idiots watch that "crossing over" garbage. Yeah,
people's dead relatives have nothing better to do
than pathetically attempt to communicate trite
health advice and whatnot.
\_ the only reason i'm helping you now, zaphod
is that i can't bear the thought of you and your
disreputable freinds slouching around up here...
\_ I loved it. It was much better than "Cats." I'm going to see it
again and again.
\_ I thought the Nicean (sp?) Creed said Jesus was NOT God?
\_ I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
I do not believe in John Edward's Crossing
Over. There is a level of faith
which you need to have (God). right now, maybe
you just don't understand or do not have
the Faith yet. Nothing wrong with that
right now. Just hope a good person
can introduce you to it all.
\_ Ok, I'll bite. I'm one of the few real
atheists here who isn't offended by Christians
telling me i don't *yet* have Faith. I don't
care that you wish others will find the same
Faith as you. The same can be said of the
Linux crowd and they're much more obnoxious
about it and smelly as well. What I don't
understand is why do you assume that others
will, in time, come around to your way of
thinking as a matter of fact? Perhaps some
of us have our beliefs firmly grounded in
our own self exploration and will *never* come
around your way. And why your way? Why not
any of the umpteen other major and minor
religions and philosophies on the planet? What
gets me about the religious is that all of you
take it on faith that your way is the one true
way but none of you have any reason to believe
so beyond old hand-me-down stories and books
or scrolls that have either been retranslated
a few dozen times or we can barely read the
langauges of today. What's up with that? I
hope you're a real Christian and not someone
mocking it because I'd like to get a real
response.
\_ So, who introduced you to the atheist
religion? -- agnostic
\_ atheist, agnostic, whatever. they're
essentially the same thing. what do
you call someone who believes god may
or may not exist, that we may or may
not be able to find out whether or not
he exists, and that even if he does
and we do, he probably doesn't concern
himself too much with us anyway?
\_ It is not essentially the same thing.
An agnostic is someone who does not
have enough information to comment
on the existence of God. An atheist
is someone who believes he does
(but doesn't). I am very surprised
people confuse the two. As far as
philosophical commitments, atheism
is closer to theism than agnosticism.
-- agnostic
\_ Nice explanation. -mice
\_ Oh bullshit. Yes, it's true that
one cannot prove the nonexistence
of something. Especially something
that is defined to be "magical".
But you either believe it or not.
Agnosticism says it's unknowable.
But it is as knowable as anything
else. You don't lead your life
based on irrelevant possibilities
for which you have zero evidence.
So for all intents and purposes,
you are atheist. You just cling to
the agnostic label like a spineless
weasel. The absence of evidence is
evidence of absence, prima facie.
Good enough for a court of law.
\_ Agnosticism doesn't say God is
unknowable. Agnosticism says
there isn't enough information
at the moment. Maybe one day
that will change. For someone
who argues against agnosticism
you know very little about it.
Personally, I treat both
possibilities (God/No God)
very seriously. I am also
surprised you are resorting to
name calling. I don't
understand what about my beliefs
you find offensive. I don't
find you offensive, merely
overcommitted.
-- agnostic
\_ most atheists are most likely
special-case agnostics.
\_ No they are not.
Agnostics and atheists
are fundamentally
different. Agnostics
(correctly) do not jump
to conclusions.
Atheists and theists do.
\_ What kind of proof are you
looking for?
\_ the belief/religion of relativism..
a belief that there are no absolutes
(such as relativism) is very
absolute onto itself..
\_ I have basically given up trying to talk to
people about this. Whenever I have, in the
past, it invariably had two possible out-
comes. 1) getting angry and cutting off any
discussion or 2) the person ignores all the
specific details of the religion and just
talks about feelings etc. They completely
just accept without question all the details
based on this generic spiritual feeling, and
can't dissociate the two.
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WEEEEEEE!
From http://m-w.com: Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable _/
Definitions vary. How are you so sure what agnostic means?
For someone who claims to be agnostic, you don't seem to know
much about it. Here's a little site that's kind of cogent:
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathq_athorag.htm
Go look at the history of the term. I find it irrelevant.
I am convinced there's no god, although obviously if one came
along I'd have to change my belief right? But a biblical-style
god is among the least believable things I can imagine. Alien
life is more believable, although I have no direct evidence.
And you are an atheist unless you believe in god.
\_ Do you believe the existence of a spiritual realm?
\_ Very well. If you think atheist = !theist, then agnostics
are a subset, although that's not a very meaningful
definition. If you think atheist = !god, then agnostics are
not a subset. I like the latter definition. My dictionary
and my friends agree with me.
\_ Fine. But that stuff about being overcommitted is silly.
I don't believe in Santa Claus. Do you have an opinion?
What's the practical difference anyway? Are you afraid
that the hypothetical god would be pissed if you aren't
always careful to stipulate to people that you don't know
"for sure"? |
| 7/9 |
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| www.100megsfree4.com/apostate -> 100megsfree4.com/apostate/ It is also the first step which potentially leads into a labyrinth of courses, volunteering, and trainings. Yet, many describe an experience which is less in some cases, far less positive. The purpose of this web site is to connect the reader with information and opinions which are not found on Landmarks web site nor at its Introduction to the Forum events. Research into Personal Development Programmes in the 1990s , August 2001 New Link! Mindbreakers , by Roland Howard, Daily Mail - London, July 2001 New Link! Landmark Ruined a Good Friend , Personal Account, January 2001 The Mary Polaski L Series: LGAT, Landmark Forum, Lifespring , January 2001 New Link! Out of Control , Personal Account, December 2000 Wills Chile Leader is in Brainwashing Sect , London Daily Mail , December 2000 Drive-thru Deliverance , by Amanda Scioscia, Phoenix New Times , October 2000 New Link! Landmark is Not Education , Personal Account, August 2000 Walked out of a Forum during its second day , Personal Account, August 2000 From the Forum to the hospital , Personal Account, August 2000 New Link! LEC access to Cult Awareness Network CAN files , by Jim Beebe, March 1999 New Link! Breakthroughs and Blarney: My Experience of the Landmark Forum , Bob Carpenter, February 1999 Big Brother Was Indeed Watching , Personal Account, February 1999 A Quick Fix? |
| skepdic.com/est.html Two or three rows at the back of the room were reserved for those who required more frequent bathroom breaks and I think either some sort of documentation or personal insistence were required to qualify. No one was ever physically required to stay in the room at any time personal correspondence . This aspect of est training was humorously ridiculed in the movie Semi-Tough 1978 with Burt Reynolds and Kris Kristoferson. In any case, one should expect some sort of discipline and required order for this kind of training. Having people come and go as they please is distracting and not conducive to the concentration necessary for such a program. Erhard and Scientology In the late 1960s, Erhard studied Scientology and L. Scientologists to this day accuse Erhard of having stolen his main ideas for est from Hubbard. We do know that when Erhard set up est he considered making it a church, as Hubbard had done with dianetics and the Church of Scientology. But Erhard decided to incorporate as an educational firm for profit in a broad market. Erhard and his supporters accuse Scientology of being behind various attempts to discredit Erhard, including hounding by the IRS and accusations of incest by his children. Erhard won a lawsuit against the IRS and the incest accusations may have been based on false memories induced in therapy. Erhard has even claimed that Scientologists have hired hit men to kill him, though the most logical explanation for his continued survival is probably that no one is really trying to kill him. Hill also advised visualizing objectives and selecting similar-minded friends. Hill gives good advice, but it is very vague and is not very systematic. It doesnt offer much to people who havent got a clue what their objectives are or should be. For example, some people are taught that they should always talk positive, even if this means lying. Even if you havent made a sale in two years, you must put on a positive front and tell everyone that business couldnt be better. Even if you know nothing about the product you are selling, you must praise it beyond belief. Even if you are experiencing one failure after another, you must lie to yourself and tell yourself that you are doing great. By the time you wake up, you are bankrupt and those who were cheering you on your sponsors are nowhere to be found. Another significant influence on Erhard was Maxwell Maltzs Psycho-cybernetics . As a young man, Erhard apparently had a lot of negatives in his self-image and was deeply affected by Maltz who emphasized, among other things, self-hypnosis. Erhard put his new ideas and new self to work as a traveling salesman for a correspondence school. His interest in hypnotism had been stimulated by Maltz, but Erhards focus would be on programming and reprogramming. The idea is not without merit, though the language is unnecessarily cumbersome. The basic idea he came to espouse is that bad habits are programmed into us: we have been hypnotized during normal consciousness and thats where our problems arise. The point is to get rid of them by replacing them with positive and life-enhancing beliefs and habits. Again, however, the language is very vague, probably too vague to do any meaningful scientific appraisal of them. By the time Erhard arrived in San Francisco, hed had jobs selling and managing salespersons for Great Books and Parents magazine. He became part of the self-help movement after hiring Robert Hardgrove, who introduced Erhard to the work of Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers . Maslow and Rogers were unique in psychology at the time, for they emphasized not the disturbed or ill person, but the healthy, happy, satisfied, accomplishing person. The Human Potential Movement was just getting started and Erhard would be in on the ground floor. It is estimated that some 700,000 people did the training before the seminars were halted in 1991, when Erhard packed up and left the country Faltermayer . He sold the est technology to some followers who established Landmark Forum . LEC, which does some $50 million a year in business and has attracted some 300,000 participants. LEC is headquartered in San Francisco, as was est , and has 42 offices in 11 countries. Apparently, however, Erhard is not involved in the operation of LEC. See related entries on firewalking , Landmark Forum , Large Group Awareness Training programs and neuro-linguistic programming . |
| tektonics.org/est.html A Sour Taste of the Forum Bob Anon Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is the admonishment that the apostle John gave us in I John 4:1. Quotes from the Bible are from the NIV version unless otherwise noted. Its sound advice, particularly in a world where man seeks to appease his sinful nature by creating religions to accommodate it. Or, man seeks to improve his self-worth with a belief system that implies God is insufficient for our needs, or even denies God. I first heard about it at work, where a friend of mine, Gary, would invite me to go to one of the introductory meetings. So, I would politely decline with the excuse that I went to church and had choir rehearsals. But Gary said that sometimes, there were introductory meetings on Thursday, as well. This opened up a chance to witness to him, to ask him if he had considered having a personal relationship to Jesus Christ. It turned out he grew up in a Catholic school, where he said they had mistreated him and thus discouraged, he gave up on Christianity. His biggest complaint was that how can any religion claim to be true to the exclusion of everyone else? I cited John 14:6, from Christs very own words: I am the way, the truth, and the life. I told him Christ claimed to be God and proved it by his resurrection from the dead. But Gary sloughed it off by denying historical records as fabrications. In the meantime, it was my job to assist Gary at the place where we both worked. We got along fine, with our discussions centering either on work or else the usual banter between friends. I also requested some literature from the Christian Research Institute about the Forum. Once EST had become controversial, they changed the name to The Forum. Contrast Erhard with the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ - sinless, perfect, holy, God Himself! And yet, Gary was asking me to commit to a belief system from a criminal expounding doctrines of demons! Gary saw The Strange World of EST leaflet on my desk one day and said, I used to belong to EST. To serve as an incentive for me to get the most out of The Forum not to mention, making The Forum operators rich. The introductory meetings were free, but those were held on Wednesdays. I reminded him about choir, and he would say, Oh, thats right, I forgot. He talked to nearly every one in our workplace, some as many as six times. And he would become upset if folks declined on a moral basis, and there were several arguments as a result. Gary pestered me to the point where I thought, well, Ill go to the introductory meeting just to say I went, and he wont bother me about going any more. I figured I could learn the way a cult operated, and maybe get a clue as to why Garys world view was the way it was. An introductory meeting was available on a Thursday night, and I agreed to go. Its like having a taste of vanilla and seeing if youd like it, he said. By coincidence, the week we were to go to the meeting, Nickelodeon repeated a Mork and Mindy episode that dealt with EST, only the show called it Erk. It was also a coincidence because I normally dont watch Mork and Mindy . I was channel-switching and the subject matter prompted me to stay tuned. Mork Robin Williams needed to get in touch with his emotions, so a friend invited him to an Erk meeting - which cost several hundred dollars. A group gathered in a small apartment, where the Erk Leader, played by David Letterman, invited comments from the participants, then told them to sit down and shut up. Mork protested, saying that living beings needed to be treated with respect. When the group refuses to sit down and shut up, the Erk Leader said he didnt care about them; If The Forum was anything like Erk, then - But, hey, I was only going to the introductory meeting. He seemed certain Id be so overwhelmed by the presentation that Id sign up for The Forum that night. Imagine sacrificing something of value when you go to the meeting, he said, so you can get the most value in return. I was sacrificing my time, time that would otherwise be spent on doing overtime work. Our employers requested us to do extra work so we could complete our project before the deadline. I preferred to work, but decided to give the meeting a try, if only to stop Garys continual nagging. The meeting was to be held at the Western Bonaventure Hotel in Los Angeles - where only a week before President Bush had stayed while investigating the aftermath of the recent riots. I trusted that he would not turn the trip into a pitch for The Forum, or lecture me about it on the way home. We left work at 6:45, and ate a meal at a nearby Chinese restaurant. Little did I know that goal-reaching was one of the topics addressed by The Forum. On the way he said, I have to tell you Im very pleased that you decided to come tonight. Well, as a writer Id like to examine other points of view, I said. Its possible that, one day, I would write about a character involved in a cult I didnt mention cult to Gary - and my first-hand experience that evening would therefore prove educational. We arrived at the Western Bonaventure, a futuristic-looking tri-column building seen in such films as Logans Run, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century and Fantastic Journey . Outside the conference room, Gary was greeted like an old friend by the Forum people whom I shall call Forumizers, who all had happy faces. We signed up at a table, though I was careful not to provide my complete address, and I listed only my work number. They handed me a glossy brochure that extolled the benefits of enrolling in The Forum. It contained a list of upcoming Forums and a questionnaire asking about the Introduction to the Forum. It also had a registration card which stated the registration fee is non-refundable. According to the brochure, The Forum is from the Landmark Education Corporation of San Francisco. By attending the program, four Continuing Education Units can be earned. The CEU provides a permanent record of your participation in a non-academic credit educational program. The brochures cover statement reads, The Forum provides direct access to the source - of accomplishment, of enjoyment, of self-expression. With this access, you are able to shape your own actions, your performance, and your results. The impact is like putting your hands directly on the controls that govern your effectiveness, your creativity, your vitality, and the satisfaction you take in being alive. Recall that John said, This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. I John 4:2-3 Throughout the evening, The Forum - and what happens at The Forum - is only vaguely defined. The main pitch centers on the alleged benefits one receives by attending it. Thanks to my name tag, I was immediately on a first-name basis with everyone in the room. I was greeted by Nancy, a tall woman dressed primly like an airline stewardess, who was all smiles and happy to see me. Monday the participants recover from their ordeal my word, not theirs, whereupon they return Tuesday night for a final brainwashing - I mean, session, from 7:30 to 10:45. The Hostess said if one wants to be a Forum Leader - and paid - the process lasts 8 to 15 years, with applicants working with small group sessions. But the brochure says the training includes three to seven years of full-time, rigorous and specialized study, preparation, and practice. Now, Gary had earlier mentioned he was working with small groups as a junior Forum Leader. This meant that he, too, was involved with rigorous and specialized study, preparation, and practice. The Hostess listed five, customized to each individual: To improve your effectiveness at relating to other people. Of course, one can enjoy all these benefits and more simply by having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and by following principles found... |
| atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathq_athorag.htm Skepticism, Philosophy, Logic, Fallacies 10 Church / State Separation 11 Evolution vs. Exploring: 38 Atheism > 39 Questions About Atheism > 40 Atheism 101 Atheism & Agnosticism 41 Atheism 101 42 Agnosticism 101 43 Agnosticism vs. Response: Many people who adopt the label of agnostic reject the label of atheist - there is a common perception that agnosticism is a more "reasonable" position while atheism is more "dogmatic," ultimately indistinguishable from theism except in the details. Unfortunately, no - agnostics may sincerely believe it and theists may sincerely reinforce it, but it relies upon more than one misunderstanding about both atheism and agnosticism. These misunderstandings are only exacerbated by continual social pressure and prejudice against atheism and atheists. People who are unafraid of stating that they indeed do not believe in any gods are still despised in many places, whereas "agnostic" is perceived as more respectable. Atheists are thought to be closed-minded because they deny the existence of gods, whereas agnostics appear to be open-minded because they do not know for sure. This is a mistake because atheists do not necessarily deny any gods and may indeed be an atheist because they do not know for sure - in other words, they may be an agnostic as well. Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a "third way" between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities. Agnosticism is not about belief in god but about knowledge - it was coined originally to describe the position of a person who could not claim to know for sure if any gods exist or not. Thus, it is clear that agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; It is also worth noting that there is a vicious double standard involved when theists claim that agnosticism is "better" than atheism because it is less dogmatic. If atheists are closed-minded because they are not agnostic, then so are theists. On the other hand, if theism can be open-minded then so can atheism. In the end, the fact of the matter is a person isn't faced with the necessity of only being either an atheist or an agnostic. Quite the contrary, not only can a person be both, but it is in fact common for people to be both agnostics and atheists. An agnostic atheist won't claim to know for sure that nothing warranting the label "god" exists or that such cannot exist, but they also don't actively believe that such an entity does indeed exist. Make it known on the 67 Discussion Forum or 68 Chat Room! Protestants 79 Church / State Separation: is it in the Constitution? |
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