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12/24 |
2008/2/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49098 Activity:nil |
2/8 American Woman in Saudi Arabia receives reality check http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329605,00.html \_ some things to notice: 1) this is from fox news. What do you think their angle is? \_ Your fox paranoia is amusing. It's not the only outlet reporting it. 2) she goes home to her "compound"... and she's in finance. clueless? 3) incoming collision from... Starbucks! Yay nation of Starbucks!! \_ Can OP fix the link above please? \_ Fixed. The URL does not need shortening. |
2008/2/8-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49096 Activity:moderate |
2/8 i kind of liked Romney. oh well. \_ I called him an idiot at first because of his "political act". But accepting that as part of politics, I certainly liked him much more than McCain. Romney has more real leadership experience, and McCain seems kind of unstable. And too war happy and egotistical. \_ I like Fred Thompson ... 's wife. \_ I didnt find it shocking he wasn't insanely anti abortion and gay crushing when he was governor of Mass. \_ Voting for democrats is SURRENDER TO TERROR \_ I just saw that. Ok I don't like him anymore. what a moron. \_ Ditto, ok that reinforces my original assessment. Of course, this too could be a political act. Whatever, moron it is. Occam's razor. \_ I winced too, but since both Dem canidates are planning to surrender in Iraq, it's probably actually correct. \_ 1. Iraq was never about the "War On Terror". 2. Going into war without clear goals (or constantly moving your goals about) is a plan for disaster. This was a war of choice, but there was no good reason or plan. Pulling out is admitting that. You can't "win" a war like that. 3. Isreal lost a lot of face because they lost a war. Making that even more clear would have just made things worse. Sometimes you need to pull back and regroup. Throwing good after bad just makes things worse. 4. Getting out of Iraq is the first step to actually solving the issues at hand. \_ 1. It wasn't at the beginning, but it sure is now. Or haven't you noticed the terrorist trying to take over the place? 2. I agree, but this too has changed. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/09/AR2008020902666.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR http://csua.org/u/kqr (Wash. Post) (And actually hasn't been true for some time.) 3. meh 4. This relies on 1 and 2, which were false. \_ Surrendering generally requires an actual identified enemy to surrender to. We could bomb everyone there until they stopped moving, but what is the point? It's not a war so much as a giant security problem. The enemies are living in the same society as the one you're supposedly protecting, you can't win a "war" like that. You have to take drastic internal police-state measures. \_ I agree with you technically, but the whole world would interpret pull-out as surrender, so the technical difference hardly seems important. Especially since things are actually going pretty well now. \_ Insofar as we embrace binary positions, yes, this will be seen as a surrender. In reality, it will simply be a repudiation of the Bush Admin's legacy. \_ Remember Isreal and Hezbollah just a year ago? That little pull-out move increased Hezbollah's stature a lot. Whether we "embrace binary positions" or not doesn't make a whole lot of difference to how it looks on the world stage. \_ Hey, do you still call them "Freedom Fries"? \_ Can't win rationally huh? \_ You can't talk a man rationally out of a position that he didn't use reason to get himself into in the first place. \_ As if anyone gets political positions using reason. -- ilyas \_ Our enemy in Iraq is not just AQiI; it's a number of Sunni insurgents, some of them home-grown, as well as collateral damage from Shi-ite militias. Hezbollah gets bragging points in Lebanon because it's the only player fight- ing Israel at the time. War was declared; sides were chosen/drawn; one team left the field; "win" (by which I mean bragging rights, not an actual victory) by forfeiture: Hezbollah. Not that Israel really had a choice at that point. Shi-ite militias. Hezbollah gets bragging points in Lebanon because it's the only player fighting Israel at the time. War was declared; sides were chosen/drawn; one team left the field; "win" (by which I mean bragging rights, not an actual victory) by forfeiture: Hezbollah. Not that Israel really had a choice at that point. \_ No, the world will interpret pull-out as a sign that the grown-ups are finally back in charge in Washington at least until we elect the next round of wing-nuts. the grown-ups are finally back in charge in Washington at least until we elect the next round of wing-nuts. \_ World >> Europe \_ I kind of like Fred Thompson's wife. Oh well. \_ "San Franciscan style left wing is not MAINSTREAM America" |
2008/2/4-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49057 Activity:nil |
2/4 N Korea: nuke, WMD, supernotes Iraq: nothing We're barking on the wrong tree man. \_ N Korea is backed by ChiCom. Iraq is not really backed by Russia. We're barking on the weaker tree. \_ 2 other considerations, no matter what me do, NK could successfully blow up a lot of SK before we won. Iraq is mostly flat sand, which is easy to invade. Iran is mountainous. \_ Also, Iran is 3x larger than Iraq. Good luck pacifying that. |
2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49026 Activity:nil |
1/28 The Iraq War has become Bush's pet project. \_ And like most children, he lacks the mental cohesion and maturity to understand the responsibility of having a pet, and it's doomed to die a horrible death from neglect. \_ Why did you have to feed the trolls? He didn't even bother to post a url. \_ Sorry, feeding the what now? |
2008/1/24-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49001 Activity:nil |
1/24 What a surprise, most (90%) of the insurgents in Iraq aren't Iraqis http://csua.org/u/kjz \_ Doesn't it say 90% of the suicide bombers are foriegn, not of all insurgents. In fact, I think insurgent is the wrong name for these guys. Terrorist really is more apt. |
2008/1/22-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48990 Activity:nil |
1/22 Study: Bush, officials made false statements prior to war http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080123/ap_on_go_pr_wh/misinformation_study In other news, sky still blue! \_ 935 false statements in two years is a lot of false statements, even for a President. |
12/24 |
2008/1/18-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48969 Activity:nil |
1/18 Some slides of how violence has decreased in Iraq, from General Raymond Odierno's briefing yesterday. http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/01/019573.php \_ Hey, did you guys ever find those WMD you were looking for there? \_ JAMA says over 150k civilian deaths. I guess if you kill enough people, the killing with eventually stop, eh? http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMp0709003 |
2008/1/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48952 Activity:nil |
1/16 Here's an amusing piece: "Ten Recurring Economic Fallacies" http://www.mises.org/story/1568 \_ He does well up until his final paragraphs, where he goes off the rails. \_ Yeah, I actually stopped reading there. -op |
2008/1/14-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48943 Activity:nil |
1/14 Saudi Arabia to buy $20B weapons package (including JDAM kits) and to re-invest in CitiGroup. Israel had objected to JDAM sales, but backed off after $30B grants secured into next decade. USA USA USA!!! |
2008/1/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48928 Activity:moderate |
1/10 reiffin is full of shit. \_ Most of us are. -dans \_ I'm mostly water -eric \_ So is shit. \_ Funny that you'd say that now since I haven't posted anything exciting in months. Please go troll someone who cares. \_ How is that War in Iraq working out? Did you guys ever find the WMD you kept harping on about? \_ Trollboy, you're barking up the wrong tree. Your troll score is: 0. \_ Actually it is one. Well, what happened to it? Did it get buried in the Syrian desert somewhere? Didn't you tell us that "even the French" believed that SH has WMD? Where is your Mea Culpa? |
2008/1/7-11 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48898 Activity:nil |
1/7 Whoops. War with Iran is getting closer. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8U17HM80&show_article=1 \_ Someone set us up the bomb! \_ Yawn. We shot down a friggin civilian airliner and didn't end up in a war. Our guys and their guys are shooting each other on both sides of the land border. We didn't get in a war. |
2007/12/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48753 Activity:kinda low |
12/6 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22126293 Violence is down. Bush's war is almost over!!! \_ Ignorance is Strength! \_ How is the delivery of power going? How about oil exports? I believe these reports more than the heavily massaged numbers on civilian casualties. \_ If they were 110% you'd find something else to whine about. The country is a mess from 3 wars, 10 years of sanctions, and decades of destructive government. It won't be fixed for years. |
2007/12/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48746 Activity:nil |
12/5 Ride Bike! In Fallujah! http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/28/2103148.htm?section=world |
2007/12/1-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48727 Activity:moderate |
12/1 "Iraqis may offer US deal to stay longer" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us What? They don't want UN or multinational presence but they want the US? \_ Republican controlled media lies. Only diplomacy through the UN can stop the continued worsening of the situation which is now in a state of full fledged civil war. \_ Nothing can stop the continued worsening of the situation. It's going to get worse before it gets better. \_ That was sarcasm, sorry. I thought everyone would understand that. Next time I'll label it. You're unaware that violence in Iraq and Baghdad in particular has dropped like a rock? "Oh but they still don't have a political resolution!!!" Yeah, neither does the U.S. Congress for our own governing needs. It's insane to ask that the Iraqis do any better politically than we're doing, which is very poorly, since both parties lack leaders. \_ It would be nice if: 1) their police were not moonlighting as insurgents, 2) their politicians were at least pretending not to be corrupt and take bribes, and 3) well, I'll settle for 1) and 2) above. \_ 1) they're getting shot like the rest of the insurgents, 2) yeah it would be nice if we didn't have people in Congress right now with $90k stuffed in their freezer. Congress right now with $90k stuffed in their freezer. 3) well, I'll settle for just 2) for now. \_ It remains remarkable to me that you cannot see a a difference between a system where bribes are taken w/o impunity and a system where allegations of corruption are investigated and the guilty parties are indicted. \_ Oh, he can see the difference. He is just being disingenuous. \_ Oh really? Did Mr. Fridge get indicted? Is he out of office? Is he in prison? Did I miss a news cycle? \_ Yes he got indicted. His trial is set to start Jan 16. His lawyers are asking for an extension, but it's coming... Sheesh.. http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/rep.-jefferson-wants-trial-delayed-2007-12-05.html How many times have we covered this? \_ http://csua.com/?entry=46846 He gets his say in court. When they convict him, call us. |
2007/11/26-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48694 Activity:nil |
11/26 Dang, that bride is fugly (Iraq: terror suspects caught in wedding) http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/26/iraq.bride/index.html \_ I think she's a man. |
2007/11/26-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48692 Activity:nil |
11/25 Is Waterboarding torture? http://www.csua.org/u/k2i (The Week) \_ Apparently, Tasers are. At that point, anything is torture. \_ The USSC said tasers are torture? When did they say that? \_ No, SCOTUS didn't say that. Google the news for tasers and torture. \_ Tasers can be torture. When police use tasers one a restrained subject, as punishment, they are using tasers as torture devices. \_ In this same vein, so are car batteries, hammers, whatever.... \_ Umm, those are regularly used as torture devices. Or would you be happy if police regularly smashed people in the hand with a hammer for not doing what they say? \_ So when a prisoner is escorted to court with a taser belt, and it's used to zap him if he gets out of line, you'd say it's a torture device? \_ If it is used to zap him if he attacks someone, probably not. If it is used to make someone do something that could be done without the use of pain, yes, it is torture. And that's what tasers have become to some law enforcement, ways of getting people to kowtow instantly. That's torture. \_ I thought torture was inflicting pain to get information, not to get them to comply. What about beating someone with batons if they won't fall in line? \_ That's pretty obvious torture. It's part of ruling by fear. And it is what our police departments are rapidly becoming, forces of fear. \_ It is not torture the way the Geneva Convention defines torture. There has to be a lot more to it than that, like permanent damage. \_ This is not a testable distinction if you include psychological damage. -- ilyas |
2007/11/26-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48691 Activity:high |
11/26 http://csua.org/u/k2n (Washington Times) Islamic terrorists target Army base -- in Arizona "Fort officials changed security measures after sources warned that possibly 60 Afghan and Iraqi terrorists were to be smuggled into the U.S. through underground tunnels with high-powered weapons to attack the Arizona Army base, according to multiple confidential law enforcement documents obtained by The Washington Times." \_ It's also possible an army of elephant commandos has been training in the amazon for generations to wipe humanity off the face of the earth and get back at us for those damn pianos. (Hint, the Washington Times is one step removed from The Star but with More Moonie.) \_ I've been reading Sara Carter's stuff since before she was with the times. She's a good reporter. And while I might accuse a major paper of spin (I'm looking at you NYTimes), I wouldn't reject it as a basic record of fact. I'm sorry you reject news sources that don't fit your agenda. -op \_ You just accused the New York Times of spin. It's had some pretty blatant failures of editorial control, e.g. Jason Blair, Judith Miller, and it is not without bias, but to claim that it spins stories is stretching it a bit, don't you think? -dans \_ No. Not at all. PP was kind to the NYT. --someone else \_ How so? Care to cite an example of egregious spin in a news story on the part of the NYT? -dans \_ Pick up a copy. They used to have the news pages read reasonably straight and kept the editorials to the op/ed page. No more and not for many years. IMO it changed sometime in the mid 90s. Now the NYT is unreadable. I used to read it cover to cover every day. \_ If it's so bad, it should be easy to provide one example. Please cite one. -dans \_ It is, and if it was anyone else asking, I'd provide examples. \_ The Plaintiff rests. -dans \_ Are you the same guy asking for proof that the Washington Times is biased? \_ No. All newspapers are biased. I don't need proof of that. \_ Everything is biased. An interesting question to ponder is what would lack of bias even look like. -- ilyas \_ Do you read Front Page Mag and NewsMax and consider them "sources of fact" as well? \_ I get all my truth from Kos and DU. \_ UPI picked it up--do you distrust them too? \_ UPI and Washington Times have the same owner, dumbfuck. \_ Didn't know that, pottymouth. \_ Then we can safely ignore your opinion on media sources. \_ Do you have any evidence at all that the owner has had a negative influence on the truthfulness of the stories they publish? Or you just hate the owner and assume? \_ "Fifteen years ago, when the world was adrift on the stormy waves of the Cold War, I established The Washington Times to fulfill God's desperate desire to save this world." --Rev Sun Yung Moon \_ That's nice. Do you have any evidence that the owner has had a negative influence at all or you just hate the owner? \_ That quote is evidence. Do you have any counterevidence. Don't be disingenuous, it defeats the purpose of discussion. Hint: the goal is not to win the argument, the goal is to maybe learn something. -dans, !pp \_ A quote is not evidence that the owner has had any effect. Hint: the goal is not to win the argument, the goal is to maybe learn something. I'm still waiting for any evidence, not innuendo, that their news is negatively influenced by their owner no matter how nutty he may be. \_ Evidence: They're reporting complete nonsense about immigrant terrorists. And they report complete nonsense all the time. And their owner says so. Why would the Moonies be dumping billions of dollars into this paper if not to push their own agenda? The prima facie evidence is that it's a paper run by nutjobs with an agenda. -tom \_ Several papers have been busted in recent years publishing flat out incorrect stories or even lies. This is the only one moonie owned. Correlation != causation and all that. \_ I'm not sure how you parse intent as innuendo. Intent is not rock-solid, slam-dunk evidence, but it is, nonetheless, evidence. Seriously, quit being a douche. -dans \_ Thank you for bringing this discussion to a new low. It is responses like this that turn me off from bothering to try to give you researched respones to your queries such as the NYT one above because you're just not mature enough to have this sort of discussion. You called me a douche, because you got frustrated that I wouldn't just back down because you're pushy and unwilling to support your claims in any real way. This isn't HS or a freshman dorm chat. "Douche", indeed. \_ Blah blah blah, wah, wah. Let me translate pp's post for the audience at home: "I can't argue my point on merit so I'll politely dodge the issue, refuse to provide evidence for my points, and say my opponent's evidence 'doesn't count', all while pretending to participate in the discussion in good faith. But if the opposition bluntly calls me on my shit, and points out that I am being a disingenuous fuckhead, then the opposition is being juvenile." -dans \_ "The Washington Times will become the instrument in spreading the truth about God to the world." --ibid \_ As above, same question. \_ Other than that they have about 50 people total staff, no original reporting, and mainly put out short summaries of stories from other "sources" that are nearly always, dunh da dunh, the Washington Times? Nope. You suck at this game. \_ No original reporting? Sara Carter has done some of the best investigative reporting I've seen. \_ I was clearly speaking specifically about UPI. You really really suck at this game. \_ Clear to who? It wasn't clear to me. -!pp \_ Then you're an idiot too, but I doubt you're !pp. \_ Oh, you're crazy, that explains a lot. \_ Crystal clear to me. Do you read? Can you read? Do you have thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR THUMBS!!! -dans \_ Can you give me some specific examples? Now I am curious, what a motd-rightwinger thinks is an example of good reporting. -!pp I am curious to see what a motd-rightwinger thinks is an example of good reporting. -!pp \_ Let's just say that if the Washington Times is the originating source they have a pretty high burden of proof. That article had absolutly nothing to back itself up. I'll wait till I see something real before giving it any cred whatsoever. \_ What media sources do you give 'cred' to when they publish poorly sourced stories? \_ The Economist, the IHT, maybe WashPo, WSJ news pages before it became a Murdoch tool. -!pp \_ The Economist, the IHT, maybe WashPo, WSJ news pages before it became a Murdoch tool. -!pp before it became a Murdoch tool. How about you? -!pp \_ You give 'cred' to the WaPo? Wow.... \_ What do you give 'cred' to? WashPo is the largest source of unsourced articles, because of the way Washington DC works. Often you cannot get good inside the beltway news any other way. WashPo is also politically moderate, more or less. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is a much better than average newspaper. Not in the same league as the others I listed though. \_ I don't give free 'cred' to any media source. If you're not sourced you're no better than Drudge. I read Drudge. I find him amusing. He sometimes even gets a story right. That doesn't mean he has any credibility. \_ All of those sources have a better track \_ All of those papers have a better track record then Drudge. \_ I'm not a regular WSJ reader, but I generally respect the news pages. I'm not ready to write it off just because Murdoch purchased it, but am definitely waiting to see what happens. My list also includes the New York Times, The Economist, and the Christian Science Monitor. -dans \- if you are going to bother to infiltrate the US, isnt it kind of odd to go after a "hard target" like an AZ army base. \_ Not if it has intel info you want. Sounds like a better target than Walmart, dont you think? And better PR value, too. \_ http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/213456.php "FBI: Widely reported terrorist threat to Fort Huachuca unfounded" As noted, the Washington Times has zero credibility. -tom \_ Oh, so you trust the FBI more than the Times? Okay then. \_ Yeah, the FBI has real incentive to downplay terrorist threats, because, uh, well, no they don't. -tom |
2007/11/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48651 Activity:nil |
11/17 Operation Falluja |
2007/11/14-17 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48637 Activity:nil |
11/14 the kholes on Fox News and http://foxnews.com are pumping this story a a lot today: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311644,00.html without mentioning the 250+ Marines who died in this bombing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing What the hell is wrong with people? \_ Shut up and eat your Freedom Fries. \_ Okay, I'll bite. What is a 'khole'? \_ If you do a bunch of ketamine, you temporarily go into this disassociative zone known as a 'k hole'. It's hard to describe, think of it as being a 2 dimensional being in a 3 dimensional world. That's pretty close. \_ And then Carl Sagan appears. |
2007/11/8-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48578 Activity:nil |
11/8 Ron Paul on patriotism http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul388.html |
2007/11/4-8 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48531 Activity:moderate |
11/4 So, how about that Hillary/Huma Abedin sex scandal LAT is sitting on? \_ Rovian tactics won't work this time. \_ Man, I though Huma was a Saudi intelligence agent. You mean she is a Saudi-Isreali lipstick lesbian double agent? Where on The Free Republic did you read that? \_ Have you been reading Drudge again? \_ I read Drudge. I've yet to see any mention of any Hillary related sex stories. OP is just trolling, thus no URL. \_ But you haven't been reading THE FREE REPUBLIC! \_ No, I don't read the freepers, true. I'm still waiting for a link from *any* source. This is just a bad troll. \_ I googled and found some Freeper links. Want those? \_ No but if the freepers link to a non-freeper site then yes. |
2007/11/2-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48526 Activity:nil |
11/2 The War On The Unexpected http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/11/the_war_on_the.html |
2007/11/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48522 Activity:nil |
11/2 "Secret source of phony Iraq intel outed" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071102/ap_on_go_ot/us_iraq_curveball |
2007/11/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:48520 Activity:nil |
11/2 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071102/ap_on_go_ot/us_iraq_curveball |
2007/10/31-11/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48498 Activity:nil |
10/31 Ex-CIA analyst Larry Johnson on one reason for intelligence failures http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2007/oct/30/one_reason_for_intelligence_failures |
2007/10/30-11/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48482 Activity:nil |
10/29 This is an old article from NY Times a couple days ago. I find it extremely interesting and a bit surprised no one mentioned about it. This is an article about how Kurdish extremist were fighting against IRAN (not Turkey) and it seems that this Kurdish extremist group, P.J.A.K has US' blessing to do so. http://csua.org/u/jv0 I think US just find its way to pick a fight against Iran: continue to encourage PJAK to conduct raid against Iran, when Iran respond, we can say Iran attack Iraq and thus we need to go all out again Iran in self defense... this is getting better and better every day. \_ Of course Iran is messing around in Iraq. I don't know why we are so surprised. If China invaded Mexico, you can bet we would have all kinds of covert ops going on down there stirring shit up. \_ Who said anyone is surprised? Pissed off that Iranians and their proxies are killing Americans? Yes. Surprised? No. \_ Are you less pissed off that Syrian and Saudi proxies are killing Americans? Also, your assertion that Iranians are attacking Americans is utterly baseless. \_ Er, no, we'd have very overt ops going on down there. We really don't like having other world powers mucking about in our continent, at least not militarily. \_ I agree with you. I just don't think it should be a shock at all that Iran might be messing around in Iraq. They are next door to Iraq. Iran is 90 percent Shiite. Iraq is 60 percent Shiite. All of the holy shiite shrines are in Iraq. \_ Agreed. Also: no surprise that Turkey intends to pursue PKK across the border, that Saudi Arabia is funding Sunni groups, and that Syria is smuggling weapons in. \_ All entirely predicatable before the first shot was fired. Someone is going to fill the vacuum left by SH. \_ All the more reason to believe that there will be a kind of detente if the US steps out of Iraq. The powers that be in the region will _not_ allow each other to step in. \_ Detente? You base this on what? \_ On the unenlightened self-interest of the powers in the region. None of them want the pie so much as they want the rest to stay out. \_ So you think the entire region can be reduced to population percentage by religion? That's the only factor? \_ I am not pp, but as Iran is the only Shi'ite power in the region and is dominated by a Shi'ite theocracy, I'd say this works in this context. \_ No, that's too simple. Iraq is much more heavily tribal than religious. Iran is dominated by a theocracy but the people are not all walking lock step with hand on Koran every day. Far far far far too simple. Thinking like that is no better than the 'theyll greet us with flowers' plan. \_ I agree with you that Iran is not in lock-step: it's arguable that the main theocracy and the President have diametrically opposed goals, and the populace, particularly the students, isn't really happy with either of them at the moment. However, I agree with pp that it's not surprising that Iran is interested/involved in Iraq. The theocratic elements are, it turns out, primarily motivated by sympathy with (and the opportunity to manipulate) the Shiite population in Iraq; the intel folks don't want yet another Sunni nation on their border; and the Pres. wants anything to distract the people from the promises he hasn't followed through on. I think I get what you're saying, though: Shia population as a percentage of Iraqi population is not the end-all reason behind Iranian interest, no? |
2007/10/29-11/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48477 Activity:nil 66%like:48510 |
10/29 ride bike! http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/29/international/i002207D82.DTL |
2007/10/29-11/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48471 Activity:nil |
10/29 http://nadshot.com |
2007/10/24-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48435 Activity:high |
10/24 A trillion dollars here, a trillion dollars there, pretty soon you are talking about real money: http://www.csua.org/u/jt4 (Yahoo News) \_ We would have saved zillions of dollars if we'd just gone home in 1945 and didn't leave our shores or open any bases. \_ Because after WWII we were still fighting a bloody ugly war surrounded by ethnic cleansing (actually my understanding is everything has pretty much been cleansed by now) while a civil war raged around us. This isn't WWII in any way shape or form, and trying to compare the two proves you are a fucking moron. \_ I wasn't comparing the two. Assuming so "proves you are a fucking moron". It is a factual statement that if we went isolationist we'd save money. \_ Yeah, we probably have spent too much on defense over the years, considering the few risks we have, but I don't think we should have completely abandoned all our overseas bases. Do you? \_ Maybe. Why not? Why are we still in Korea, Germany, 'the former Yugoslav republics', Britain, Japan, Cuba, and I really don't know how many other places? \_ Iraq. \_ Iraq, Qatar, Yemen, maybe Saudi Arabia. \_ Not Saudi Arabia. And they say UBL didn't win. \_ Yes, those too, thanks. Anyway, to the person a few posts up: why don't you think we should have completely abandoned all our overseas bases? The point of a military base is to project military power. Why do you want to project power all over the world? What benefit is there to the US? \_ We need a few naval bases, so that we can keep shipping lanes open and refuel our navy and project enough air power to protect them on patrol. Our economy depends too much on trade to ignore shipping lanes. Not much more than that. \_ Wow, that is $100k per Iraqi. \_ War costs are generally not measured in head count. \_ Maybe they should be. |
2007/10/22-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48414 Activity:nil |
10/22 The Surge is working! http://www.csua.org/u/jsc \_ This article has been ignored by jewish controlled liberal media outlets -jblack #2 fan |
2007/10/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48342 Activity:nil |
10/17 Best headline ever http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/5220416.html "Cemetery feels pinch as violence drops" \_ There's always a downside to war. Now the grave digger's union is complaining about insufficient death toll. What next? Enemy files discrimination lawsuit? "TERRORISTS SAY US ARMY TARGETS THEM! FILES SUIT IN 9TH CIRCUIT!" \_ We should start executing politicans and lawyers to make up thelack. |
2007/10/15-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48332 Activity:moderate |
10/15 Republicans working on the "Stab In The Back Myth" for use after our defeat in Iraq: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/06/0081080 \_ More at: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071015/alterman \_ that sounds like traitor talk to me! \_ It is funny to watch the Right in full on paranoid melt-down mode. Just wait until after Commander-In-Chief Hillary Rodham Clinton is inaugurated! \_ will the hills be far enough a place to head for? \_ Oh boy, utopia, 4-8 more years of corruption, law breaking, lies and *-gate scandals along with the troops staying in Iraq past 2013. Can't wait. Sounds like an American success story. \_ Fortunately, Bush can't run again, Cheney won't run, and BushCo has made it extraordinarily unlikely that a Repub will win, so the problem is solved! \_ Uh yeah, like I said. Elect Clinton to get 4-8 more years of corruption, lies, *gate and troops in Iraq past 2013. \_ If Hillary can figure out how to get fellated in the Oval Office, more power to her. \_ Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. We won't get fooled again! \_ Looks like the Sanchez speech was all part of the mythos building: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_disgruntled_general \_ No, the article in your link is about "Sanchez was an idiot and he's bitter so this is him moaning and griping about his failures and blaming everyone but himself". |
2007/10/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48319 Activity:low |
10/15 Things you may not have read about Sanchez's comments: 1) "The American military finds itself in an intractable situation ... America has no choice but to continue our efforts in Iraq," 2) "What is clear to me is that you are perpetuating the corrosive partisan politics that is destroying our country and killing our service members who are at war. My assessment is that your profession, to some, has strayed from these ethical standards and allowed external agendas to manipulate what the American public sees on TV, reads in newspapers and what they see on the Web," Sanchez said. http://www.fairandbalanced.com/story/0,2933,301676,00.html \_ Did he say this to a Fox News reporter? \_ In his speech to the Military Reporters and Editors Association in Washington, D.C., on Friday.... \_ I love the lefties who censor the URL. Shows their hypocrisy so \_ Yes, I know, I was making a joke. Even funnier that he said it to a bunch of Stars and Stripe's reporters. \_ Full transcript http://www.militaryreporters.org/sanchez_101207.html \_ I love the commies who censor the URL. Shows their hypocrisy so well. \_ Sup jblack, long time no motd! \_ I'm not jblack. -pp |
2007/10/15-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48318 Activity:kinda low |
10/15 Gotta love it when liars (CAIR) are exposed: http://csua.org/u/jqe \_ Links to Little Green Footballs, promoting paranoia and anti- Islamic sentiment so you don't have to. \_ The link has a scan of a check to CAIR, and quoting a statement from CAIR denying it. Do you claim that they're faking it? \_ No, I object to you posting partisan links without posting the full URL or, barring that, identifying the source. I'm not saying that no one should read Freeper or LGF or WashTimes or Townhall, I'm just saying that you should give people an opportunity to know what the source is before they click the link. I'd do it before I sent you to Media Matters or MoveOn or even the New York Times. \_ I only shortened to the link because it was over 80 columns. It's not a porn site. \_ Don't be disingenuous. It takes less than four seconds to write a useful descriptive comment. -dans,!PP \_ So anyway, is Cair lying or not? -someone else \_ So anyway, is op being disingenuous or not? \_ I neither know nor care. Were you failing to make a point or just following in the OP's proud disingenuous footsteps? -dans \_ Funny. I see it the exact opposite way. I don't care if the OP is disingenous or not because it doesn't matter. It matters a lot more when a monied lobbying group lies. That is what I care about. They either did or did not. Which is it? -!op \_ Dunno about dans, but for me the issue isn't the pristine integrity of the org, rather the good that they do. \_ My thinking tends to be similar, though for different reasons. My working assumption is that virtually all politicians and/or political organizations are, to some extent, dirty or corrupt. Want to take CAIR to task? More power to you, but don't discriminate. Take every dirty organization/politician, regardless of political ideology, to task. -dans \_ I'm opposed to all dirty orgs. The op posted a link about this particular one so that is the topic. Did they or did they not lie? And as far as the 'good' that CAIR does, I'd be most impressed to see a list of their positive accomplishments for this country. Given their foreign cash sources, past statements, and ties to anti-American foreign orgs I don't think the plus column for CAIR is very long. \_ If you're opposed to all dirty orgs, who do you like, then? \_ Pet rescue. Money for children of vets killed/injured in war to go to college. Children's reading book donation programs. A few others. CAIR doesn't make the list of 'good' orgs by any measure. There are *no* good political orgs I'm aware of. I'm surprised you couldn't think of a clean non-profit org. \_ The Catholic Church \_ Mother Teresa: corrupt, malignant dwarf. -Hitchens \_ Re: The Holocaust: oops. But, no, really the Pope has a direct line to God who is infallible. Re: Widespread sexual abuse of children at the hands of priests: Oops. We'll just sweep this under the rug because it would really suck if people sued us. -dans |
2007/10/10-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48283 Activity:nil |
10/10 Pelosi vs. the anti-war activists http://csua.org/u/jp0 |
2007/10/2-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/History/WW2] UID:48224 Activity:moderate |
10/2 Check this out, it's awesome: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21105586 Ratio of wounded in action to killed in action: WW2: 1 killed to 2.40 wounded Vietnam: 1 to 3.12 Current: 1 to 8.3 \_ All Hail Western Medical Science! Amen! \_ If you stick a tube in a vegetable, it'll be alive indefinitely. Case in point... the veggy woman case. \_ A lot more soldiers get wounded than before? "Ouch, I just got poked by that cactus and my pinky is bleeding. I'm out of the mission." \_ No, it is really because doctors can patch up and save the lives of soldiers with all sorts of gruesome wounds that would have been certain death in Vietnam or WW2. Same thing for Vietnam vs. WW2. If you go back to the Civil War, things we consider a scratch or minor wound would be almost certain death. \_ Advances in medicine certainly helped a lot, but it's not the only thing going on. For one thing, the ammunition size has decreased over the years (we used to use 7.62 rounds in our assault rifles). The decrease was driven by limits on soldier carrying capacity (as soldiers were called upon to carry more and more equipment), by the fact that the crucial thing is to disable, not kill, and by noting that most engagements were fought at distances where larger rounds were not necessary to achieve decent ballistics. -- ilyas \_ Uhm... ok *our* rounds are smaller but doesn't it really matter what the *other* guys are using? I suspect your typical AlQ/Iraqi/Whatever gun toter is not carrying the same load as an American solider in combat. \_ The russians moved to a similar smaller round (which is what the AK-74 fires). There are still a lot of AK-47s in circulation in Iraq, of course. My point is, the reduced fatalities are not due to medical advances alone, but the changing realities of modern engagements. -- ilyas \_ "Alone"? No. But a huge and seriously major part of the reason why more solider survive combat wounds? Absolutely. Think of the Civil War era. Shoot one of those poor no-medical-bastards with a round of any size you like. The odds that what we now think of as a simple infection kills them is extremely high. It doesn't matter how big a wound. Medicine gets better every year and what used to mean death is now a routine fix. \_ Let's not let justified loathing of the war diminsh the achievements of the people fighting to keep our soldiers alive. I'm against the war, but I think the advances in medicine have been amazing and laudable. \_ I don't think anyone was dimishing medicines achievements. Without them there'd be a lot more dead soldiers and others. |
2007/10/1-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48217 Activity:moderate |
10/01 Military deaths way down for the last few months. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071001/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq \_ This is great news. Maybe the surge really is working. \_ Not sure if you're trolling or not, but just in case... The Iraqi insurgents aren't stupid. They're just lying low until we leave, so they can really start killing off $RIVAL_SECT. It doesn't matter if we're there or not. I guess it matters as in if we're there, we lose soldiers or they horribly maimed for no reason. \_ So if our being there reduces the death totals don't we have a moral obligation to stay? \_ yeah, who cares if Iraqies are dying \_ If you had RTFA, you'd see Iraqi deaths are down too, moron. "More dramatic, however, was the decline in Iraqi civilian, police and military deaths." \_ Unfortunately there was an 2000% increase in the number of Iraqis who "slipped in the bathtub" \_ There are bathtubs in Iraqi home? I thought it was a third world country. \_ It's a post-apocalyptic third world country. They used to have all sorts of amenities. Now they have the remnants. \_ Did no one pick up on the "if you get shot in the face it's ok" killing reclassification reference? \_ I'm not ok being shot in the face, thanks though. |
2007/9/29-10/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48212 Activity:nil |
9/29 The country is just kicking the wounded Vets to the curb: http://www.csua.org/u/jm6 |
2007/9/29-10/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48211 Activity:high |
9/29 Someone was asking about Sameer. He is at Quantico right now, just starting OCS. I am sure he would appreciate your letters. -ausman http://www.creativedestruction.com/blog \_ As someone who has met Sameer but never really knew him that well: WHY? \_ My theory is that he's convinced that the government needs to change, and badly. However, the people with the most credibility and ability to change the government are those who have risked their lives in service to this country. I think his long-term plan is to honorably serve, and then return and work for political change. \_ Perhaps 9/11 convinced him of the urgent need to defend his country. -- ilyas \_ Or maybe all that money made him really lose his mind. Also he wanted something to do with his life since he doesn't have to work anymore. \_ Are you implying you must be insane to join the military without economic duress? -- ilyas \_ Nope. I am implying Sameer went insane. \_ Isn't Sameer gay? \_ In this case it's just a non sequitur insult. I salute you sir, you make the motd a better place. Actually I'm not implying. I STATE: Sameer went insane. \_ I don't know Sameer, how did he go insane? \_ He talked about WHY in his blog a while back. Check the archives. \_ This appears to be the relevant post. Wow. I totally respect him. http://www.creativedestruction.com/archives/2006_04.html \_ and more in http://www.creativedestruction.com/archives/2006_05.html \_ I don't make a habit of reading his blog (or any blog for that matter). His reasons sound pretty selfish. He should have just gotten a dog if he wanted to feel needed. \_ Here on the motd we can show the selfish pricks like Sameer how it's done! \_ Wow. You're a dick! -dans \_ A realist. There's no point going over there to get killed. We dont need another Pat Tillman. When people do dumb things someone has to say so. \_ Ok, I'll volunteer. Your post is dumb, dick. \_ Yes, because the best way for Sameer to benefit the USA is to be KIA in Iraq. \_ To join the chorus, you are fucking retarded. -- someone else \_ The best way for Sameer (or anyone who wants to help) to benefit the USA is to get the training needed to lead US troops in Iraq and work to _keep_ them from getting KIA. \_ I do not think any skills Sameer acquired while getting extremely wealthy in the dot com glory days will translate well into our glorious quagmire in Iraq. As the above poster says, Sameer should have just gotten a dog if he wants to be needed. \_ There's a big need for IT type of personelle \_ Sameer is certainly not going to OCS to contribute IT services for the tar pit war effort. \_ seriously, I read his blog and don't fault him for his reasons, or the tenacity to get him where he is, in spite of being well over normal cutoff recruitment age. hat's off to him! -ERic \_ I think early 30s is not over the cutoff age these days \_ Me thinks he just needs to get laid and settle down. Less complaints, less bitching, more homey. \_ At least according to his blog, it is for the Marines. The army has raised their cutoff age, apparently the maries have not. \_ read the damn blog, he talks about it there. 29 is the cutoff for Marines OCS, though exemptions can be gotten on an individual basis, as Sameer has gotten. Cutoff for other branches of the military is up in the low 40's now. If you want the exact details talk to a recruiter. -Eric |
2007/9/27-10/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48200 Activity:high |
9/27 After last night's debates, it looks like the leading candidates are all in favor of keeping the war going until the end of their first term. I don't know who to vote for anymore. \_ Romney! \_ the reality is that Republicans are going to loose the election in 2008. They are doing everything they can to drag the war until end of Bush's 2nd term. When Democrat pull the troops, Republicans can righteously accusing Democrats "cut and run." \_ Oh please, do you have any idea what the Democrats are all saying? They will *not* pull the troops. That is the whole point. There is no one to vote for! \_ I'm still throwing support to Biden, even though he has no chance of being nominated. \_ As long as a majority of people support the crummy media created candidates because the better ones "don't stand a chance" we'll get what we deserve. I always vote for who I want, not who I'm told I should be. If more people were like us we'd have better government. \_ If elected, "I would have combat troops out of Iraq in about nine months," Edwards said. That seems pretty unambiguous to me. \_ Nope. Go check his response in the most recent debate. Here it is and I'll grant it is close but no cigar, esp. the way he starts off in answer to "2013" as a target date. He gets an "A" for effort though as the one closest to saying he'll actually end the war for real. MR. RUSSERT: Senator Edwards, will you commit that at the end of your first term, in 2013, all U.S. troops will be out of Iraq? MR. EDWARDS: I cannot make that commitment. I -- well, I can tell you what I would do as president. If I -- when I'm sworn into office come January of 2009, if there are in fact, as General Petraeus suggests, 100,000 American troops on the ground in Iraq, I will immediately draw down 40 (thousand) to 50,000 troops and, over the course of the next several months, continue to bring our combat troops out of Iraq until all of our combat troops are in fact out of Iraq. I think the problem is, and it's what you've just heard discussed, is, we will maintain an embassy in Baghdad. That embassy has to be protected. We will probably have humanitarian workers in Iraq. Those humanitarian workers have to be protected. I think somewhere in the neighborhood of a brigade of troops will be necessary to accomplish that -- 3,500 to 5,000 troops. But I do say -- I want to add to things I just heard. I think that it's true that everyone up here wants to take a responsible course to end the war in Iraq. There are, however, differences between us, and those differences need to be made aware. Good people have differences about this issue. For example, I heard Senator Clinton say on Sunday that she wants to continue combat missions in Iraq. To me, that's a continuation of the war. I do not think we should continue combat missions in Iraq, and when I'm on a stage with the Republican nominee come the fall of 2008, I'm going to make it clear that I'm for ending the war. And the debate will be between a Democrat who wants to bring the war to an end, get all American combat troops out of Iraq, and a Republican who wants to continue the war. \_ Just like he said then, the choice will be between a Republican who intends to continue the war and a Democrat who intends to end it. I guess at that point you can make your choice who to vote for. That is assuming that he wins the nomination (a big big unlikely assumption, I admit, but one big unlikely assumption, I admit, but one that should make you want to support his campaign if you want to actually end the war). \_ No, the choice will be between one party that says they will stay there to continue the war and the other party that kinda sorta say they'll be there but like if maybe uhm eventually ya know it is sorta hard and I don't like your tone asking me all these hard theoretical questions so please don't ask me anything until I'm President party that will also continue the war. \_ That will be true if Hillary wins the nomination, as is likely. I disagree with your interpretation of what Edwards said. \_ He was asked directly if he'd pledge to have them all out by 2013. He said no. What is there to interpret? I could have been a motd jerk and just gave you the first line but I gave the full quote. He won't promise to have them all out by *2013* which is *4* full years after he would take office. \_ He said he would pull 98% of them, which is good enough to me. I don't see why you want to leave the embassy unguarded. Do you think he should promise to pull the Marines from the Embassy walls as well? \_ Oh goodie then we can have another reenactment of the Iranian embassy take over because we left too small a contingent for the role they have been assigned protecting the embassy and the humanitarian workers all over the country in the middle of a huge civil war. Brilliant. More half- assed measures for the cameras. \_ The Iranian Embassy takeover was supported by the Islamic Rev. AQ in Iraq is not supported by Iraqis or the govt. Your example does not work. \_ Are you on the right thread? WTH are you talking about? This thread at this point was about how many troops Edwards would leave in Iraq and what mission they would have, such as protecting the US Emb from *any* hostiles. \_ Do you hold your breath until you pass out and then type randomly on the key- board? You invoked the Iran Embassy as though something of that nature could take place in a country that did not explicity support such actions. No matter how bad Iraq gets, it will not be that country. Stop fear- mongering. |
2007/9/27-10/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48197 Activity:high |
9/26 Another win for the Constitution and another blow to the Bush Admin: http://www.csua.org/u/jll (Yahoo News) \_ The Bush admin is dead. Who cares? Look to the future, don't dwell on the past. Do you have any idea what the front runners in both parties are saying about this? \_ unfortuantely, Bush is not dead. He is threating veto on the spending bill if it exceed its limit. Rubber stamp Democrats for some reason doesn't want to put Iraq war spending as part of of the spending bill. They should just cut the war funding completely if things are not going their way. \_ Bush is dead. He vetos. So what? The Democrats are not rubber stamps for the war. The reason they keep funding it is because they want us to stay there. They should do a lot of things but I don't put weight on what they should do, I look at what they've actually done, which is fund the war to every penny Bush has asked. Anyway, none of this means anything either way since the Democrats are doing nothing different from what Bush has been doing. \_ what is your proposal, then? we have 70-100 Iraqi civilians dies every day, ~4 million (out of total of 20+ million) displaced internally and externally. So, obviously we are not making this peaceful right now. My ears are all yours. \_ What was unclear? We leave Iraq. Unfortunately our leadership in the Congress is too pathetic and cowardly to do what we put them there to do. Or more likely, I believe that *want* us to stay there. They aren't putting up *any* sort of fight against Bush, an unpopular lame duck President. I can only conclude they want us in Iraq. They = Democrats, if that was unclear. \_ If you think the Dems are pathetic and cowardly for not "putting up *any* sort of fight against Bush," and are thus unworthy of office, that must mean that you think the GOP are murderous traitors who ought to be hanged, yes? \_ Hanged? No. We don't hang politicians for failed policy. Out of office? Sure, of course. That is the nature of our system. But I don't see the Dems saying they'll do anything substantially different if they have the executive office and they own both the house and senate and have done nothing. They aren't even very good at doing nothing. \_ Hyperbole aside, you've seen that the GOP are criminally negligent and corrupt. Surely even Do Nothing would be a better polict than the current polciy of screwing the American people over. \_ The reason they keep funding it is because they're scared of the punditry saying "they abandoned the troops in the field." This is of course bullshit, and they'll need to find their voices and spines and change that meme. But IMO they are obliged now to cut off the funding. There is no other way for them to end it. And until they get up the courage to do so, more soldiers and civilians continue to die. \_ Whereas when the troops leave Iraq, it will instantly become peaceful? Pass me some of what you're smoking! \_ what is your proposal, then? we have 70-100 Iraqi \_ some sort of "final solution?" civilians dies every day, ~4 million (out of total of 20+ million) displaced internally and externally. So, obviously we are not making this peaceful right now. My ears are all yours. \_ Stop cut n pasting. Say something new or don't bother posting. \_ Oh, no, Iraqis will continue to see violence, and that's on our heads. But our troops leaving now or 10 years from now won't change that. I'm speaking specifically of the US's cost in blood and treasure. We need to attack the issue with other approaches. It will be a long road as Bush has ignored all other approaches, failing to lay any groundwork diplomatcally/politically, but them's the breaks. \_ There is no need if we TRY to spread diseases like Cholera. The military should consider that as a cheap and effective option. \_ Or we could send in the CIA to spread crack. \_ I love how casually you predict the next 10 years. Here's another possibility. In 10 years, Al Qaeda has taken over Iraq, used the oil revenue to get biological and nuclear weapons, and erased a US city. See, we can all play that game. \_ That may be true but in 30 years they'll be commercialized and embrace everything Western just like Vietnam it is now. \_ And at the cost of only one major US port city! A good deal at twice the price! Maybe it'll be a smaller port city like San Francisco or Oakland.... \_ I can live with that. \_ Lemme guess, you don't live anywhere near SF? \_ Since Al Qaeda is very unpopular amongst the Iraqi people, it is hard to imagine how they could possibly "take over" Iraq. Try to imagine something with a greater chance of likelyhood, like Iran taking over Iraq. \_ That is already happening. \_ How popular was Saddam with the Iraqi people? \_ Are you saying that we are funding AQ? \_ SH was extremely popular with one tribe, one that represented about 20% of the Iraqi people. AQ has no such inherent power base. The Shi'ites hate them and the Sunni in Iraq have turned against them. \_ The Sunni aren't a tribe. They're a religious branch of Islam. Saddam's tribe was in Tikrit and the areas immediately around Tikrit. I agree with the rest of what you said. |
2007/9/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48185 Activity:high |
9/24 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20974791 Cholera outbreak in Iraq spreading. Maybe we don't need to fight Al Qaeda anymore. MANIFEST DESTINY! \_ We're going back in time! \_ Ok, I'm bored, I'll bite. What, if anything, does manifest destiny have to do with cholera in Iraq? I'm figuring pretty much nothing but you thought it sounded good. \_ I think the OP is making a joke comparing the US's current imperialist pursuits in iraq to its previous imperialist pursuits in north america ... manifest destiny was achieved partially because native americans died out (small pox, etc) ... so if the iraqi population things out due to disease our job their will be easier. har har \_ Hmm, ok, except what we're doing in Iraq is not imperialism. \_ yes I understand that, you understand that, but the average Muslim in the middle east does NOT understand that. Many are pissed at what they perceive as a hostile occupation, fueling hatred and their reasonings for attacking us. Just because you have a full understanding of the situation from YOUR perspective, does not make your opinion valid. Fucking dumb shit. \_ Nothing you just said has anything at all to do with cholera, manifest destiny, or anything else on this thread. And you call me a dumbshit? Ok. Whatever. \_ Idiot. -Trollee \_ Idiot. -troller \_ Your truly brilliant reply has made your case in a way that allows no further response. There is just nothing to be said to your laser sharp wit and clear command of the language and issues at hand. I salute your intellectual mastery! -Trollee \_ Congrats, you've been trolled. BRILLIANT! -troller \_ Uhm, duh, it's the motd. Everyone is a troll. And if you're smart enough to read this, you're smart enough to see I replied in the first place due to boredom and willingness to bite. How did a mouth breather like you manage to login? -Trollee \_ Dude, you're fucking smart. Keep it up. -troller \_ Surprised Trollee hasn't written back !troller !op If it was then we're the *worst* imperialists in all of \_ Muslims think we ARE the worst imperialists in the world. recorded history. Real imperialists would have simply flattened the place, turned it into a giant military base, enacted permanent martial law, had a 100% American military governing body, etc. But ok, I guess it makes optroll happy to make shit up or something. \_ Let me guess, you don't "get" The Onion's humor either, do you? \_ I "get" the onion. I "get" the onion so much that I can tell this is nothing like the onion. You know why this is different? Because the onion is *funny*. \_ No that is not what a "real imperialist" would have done at all. Read up on the history of the British Empire in Iraq. We actually have tried to more or less convert Iraq into a US economic colony and failed. Our methods are not that different from what England tried 100 years ago. Those that do not learn from history... \_ We are not converting Iraq. We simply wanted a regime change. |
2007/9/24-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48162 Activity:nil 88%like:48150 |
9/22 How George Bush became the new Saddam http://urltea.com/1khy (macleans.ca) \_ And I was called nutty for suggesting we should wish SH back. It looks this is (roughly) US policy. \_ This was a great article but it says nothing like you seem to think it says. You should read the whole thing instead of just looking at the title and the pretty picture at the top of each page. |
2007/9/23-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48158 Activity:nil |
9/23 Why I Have A Little Crush on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/23/83652/6735 \_ YHBT |
2007/9/22-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48150 Activity:nil 88%like:48162 |
9/22 How George Bush became the new Saddam http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20070920_100442_7900&source=srch&page=1 |
2007/9/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48126 Activity:nil |
9/20 Independent journalist in Anbar, interesting Part 1: http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001514.html Part 2: http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001517.html \_ Anyone who appears on the Wall Street Journal opinion page, Front Page Mag AND the National Review I automatically dismiss as a fucking idiot. \_ I was hoping this was Michael J Totten porn but its not: http://suicidegirls.com/interviews/Bushs+War \_ Who is this person and why do we care? \_ I tend to discount anyone who believes that Zaquarwi wasn't a US MILITARY FAKE MEDIA construct. he was just one dude, he did not control all terror in Iraq. |
2007/9/18-22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48105 Activity:nil |
9/18 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html Iraq: 3783 deaths, 27,848 wounded. Question: How much does it cost for each death (payment for burial, family, ceremoney, etc) vs. treat for the wounded (doctor's bills, shrinks, compensation packages, etc)? \_ Are you trying to make the case that we should let the wounded die because it is cheaper? |
2007/9/14-22 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48073 Activity:moderate |
9/14 So, exactly what did the surge accomplish again? http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=9804115 My feeling is that Republican just want to drag this until 2009 and blame Democrats for "loosing the war." \_ It accomplished exactly what it was intended to accomplish: it lined the pockets of the defence contractors, all who donate to the GOP. \_ Are you kidding? Most large companies donate to both parties. It only makes sense to do so. \_ Do you really think that defense contractos donate the same amount to both parties? How about oil companies? \_ Dunno if they donate the same amount or not, but I'm quite sure they donate to both parties. \_ Easy enough to look up: http://www.csua.org/u/jk9 Big Oil: 3:1 Republican, 4:1 recently http://www.csua.org/u/jka Defence: 60:40 GOP, 2:1 lately The latter actually surprised me a bit, I thought that it would be more one sided. \_ It used to be that the timeline for ending a war was "when we've won". Now it seems like the timeline is "we haven't won and this is really frustrating so let's just call it a day and go home and pretend it never happened". The tactics, strategies, equipment, man power levels, focus, and diplomatic efforts may all be wrong and require a complete change of plan but retreating because we're and re Elsewhere in the programme, we meet glamour model Lucy Pinder, whose breasts hav\ e made her famous. With contracts to the Daily Star and Nuts magazine, Lucy has\ made a name for herself using her body quire a complete change of plan s got a b\ rain as well as a pair of The programme follows Lucy on a shoot for Nuts and he\ ars what life is like when you have some of the most famous breasts in the nation. Also on Wednesday, model Jo talks about how her attitude towards her breasts cha\ nged dramatically after she had her baby, and Gemma explains what life is like w\ hen you have to spend up 800 a year on hiding an embarrassing nipple problem. to boobs!Shebut retreating because we're and but retreating because we're "bored of this war and it's no fun!" is detrimental to our long term standing in the world and our ability in the future for generations to apply non-military pressure to accomplish our national goals. No one follows a loser or a quitter. The war has become so political that no one in DC seems to care about the consequences anymore. It has become a faxed memo talking points political item. How sad for all of us. \_ The war was a mistake. If you make a mistake, the thing to do is stop making it, not stubbornly keep doing it because you are worried about pride and saving face. This whole thing has already damaged our standing in the world. Talk about consequences? What is your definition of "winning"? \_ "The thing to do is stop making it": far too trivial an answer. The answer is to finish what you started, not get bored and go because it is annoying. We'll never win by my definition. Our leaders (in both parties) are too gutless to do what needs to be done. I read an interview with Powell a few days ago where he said we should have shot a bunch of looters on day one as a lesson to the rest. I'm with Powell. \_ You still haven't answered the question as to what it would mean for us to win. \_ Win = defeat your enemies. In this case that would mean closing the borders with Syria and Iraq to cut off support and crushing groups such as the 'mahdi army'. Once your enemies are defeated you can talk about diplomatic solutions among the rational people who remain. While these groups exist and still think they can get more from fighting instead of talking there can be no diplomatic solution to anything. War is about breaking the will of your enemy to continue fighting, which we haven't even *tried* to do yet. That might get a bunch of folks into a tizzy and we can't have folks in a tizzy, can we? \_ Fighting it the way you want to fight it would require many more men that the military has. I don't think there is any way you are going to sell a draft, especially at this point. And even if you could, I don't think it would work, since it basically requires breaking the Iraqi will to have an indepedent government. It didn't work in Vietnam, why would it work here? Iraq has a long history of defeating colonial powers, you know. \_ We're not colonizing, we're SETTING IT FREE!!! Give me freedom or give me death! -Neocon \_ How about choking to death on some Freedom Fries? \_ You CAN'T finish it. That's the fucking point. \_ In your opinion. Fighting it like we have, you are correct since we haven't been fighting, which includes the surge in recent months. \_ Whether Iraq should have been invaded or not is neither here nor there. What people need to focus on is the fact that we *are* there. Now what? Packing up and going home is not a good solution, so what are the other options? \_ The only other option I can think of is to arm some Saddam Hussein like strong man and let him kill as many Kurds and Shi'ites as he needs to keep the country together. Too bad we killed SH, eh? \_ Then it is a good thing you're not making any decisions. \_ Yes, far better to listen to you and blow $1T,\ 3k lost lives, 30k maimed and our credibility \_ Yes, far better to listen to you and blow $1T, 3k lost lives, 30k maimed and our credibility on a pointless invasion. I notice you haven't been able to come up with any withdrawal strategy. It is either the one I came up with or an out and out civil war, which will be worse, and just end up with the same kind of strongman in the end anyway. Oh, and I warned that the invasion of Iraq would most likely result in a civil war there *before* the invasion. So yes, it is a "good thing" that I am not making any decisions. \_ Stop focusing on the past. What's done is done. Who cares about what you warned against? So your withdrawal options are what again? And what options are there other than withdrawal, if any? Dems like to say "I told you so". Fair enough. Now they want to lead the country, so what's the plan? Most of what I hear is BS that panders to the "I told you so"'s in hopes of getting elected. I'd like to hear some real plans. So far my favorite is the Biden-Gelb plan, which basically calls for splitting Iraq up and guaranteeing the Sunnis a share of oil profits. I think the people who want our troops out of Iraq now are thinking with their hearts and not their minds. \_ Actually, I think we should do the same thing I suggested two years ago and it starts with impeaching Bush and handing him over to an International War Crimes Tribunal. But I am sure you are not interested in hearing it again, so I won't bother. Any "solution" that doesn't start out with hat in hand to the Iranians, Turks, Syrians and Saudis is just a big waste of time. You stilll are dreaming of waste of time. You still are dreaming of victory, when what you should be doing is trying to cut your losses. Okay, I just looked up the Biden-Gelb plan and it at least recognizes the idea that the US needs to engage Iraqi neighbors to have a hope of a chance of success. But that chance that Bush is going to effectively engage Iran is nill. Maybe the next President will, though. read the Biden-Gelb plan and I think it focuses on the important points, which are recognizing the inevitable need to draw in and get the support from Iraq's neighbors. I still think you are stuck in fantasyland though. nil. Maybe the next President will, though. \_ Vote for Biden. People should stop wasting their time with Hillary and Obama. They are probably the 3rd and 4th best candidates the Dems have but they have NAME RECOGNITION. The Dems suck and I have low expectations for the next President. \_ Joe "never met a credit card company I wouldn't fellate" Biden? Seriously, Biden can't get the base. Without primary voters, you can't get the nom. \_ I understand that, but I still think he is the best man for the job. \_ I like Biden quite a bit, mostly just from watching him at the debates, but I don't think he has a chance. But my candidate (Edwards) doesn't have much of a chance either. \_ Edwards leads the pack in Iowa. Or, had for a while... It's neck and neck, apparently. \_ I don't think he has a chance either and that's too bad. Why is everyone all over Hillary? |
2007/9/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48046 Activity:high |
9/13 Since we invaded Iraq, there are more than 2million refugees fled the country. My questions to you all are: 1. do you think we the Americans has a moral obgligation for taken care of by settling them in US? 2. if you don't like the idea of allowing them settle in US, would you think we have the moral obgligation to pay countries who do? We have generated a huge proportion of refugees (something like 1 in 4 Iraqis are displaced since American intervention. I am just a bit curious why this topic never bought up anywhere. \_ Who says they want to come to the US? Who says they aren't happier moving to tribal areas with people more like themselves? Who says we haven't helped any of these people? Some urls would help. \_ US doesn't issue Visa to Iraqis, not even those who have gotten themselves in trouble by translations, etc. \_ Can they get AmEx instead? \_ How much should Al Qaeda pay to relocate the refugees? \_ how does it relevent? Al Qaeda didn't create this mess. |
2007/9/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48019 Activity:nil 52%like:48006 |
9/11 "Allo! My name is Diego Montoya! And these are my underpants!" http://xrl.us/5xn8 [hey the url fit in 80 columns, why shrink it and destroy the source address? -op] |
2007/9/11-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48015 Activity:kinda low |
9/11 The War On Terror is like herpes. Not going away ever. Deal. \_ Ridiculous. The WoT is a fiction, like the War on Drugs. Once people wake up to the idea that you can be alert and not paranoid, this "War" will implode. \_ Nah, too many GOP donors are sucking on the public teat to ever let a moneymaker like WoT ever go away entirely. Just like the idiotic "war on drugs" the people raking in public dough will drag it out indefinitely. \_ Heh, a troll op followed by a trollicious reply which hooked another troll. You earned the Triple Troll Whammy Award! \_ And you of course, are not a troll, so no T4 award... \_ No, I'm commenting on the trolliciousness of the whole thing which makes you and me meta-trolls. If I were commenting on a baseball game that does not make me a baseball player. |
2007/9/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48006 Activity:nil 100%like:48001 52%like:48019 |
9/11 "Allo! My name is Diego Montoya! And these are my underpants!" http://xrl.us/5xn8 |
2007/9/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48001 Activity:nil 100%like:48006 |
9/11 "Allo! My name is Diego Montoya! And these are my underpants!" http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2430913.ece |
2007/9/7-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47940 Activity:moderate |
9/7 Hey dipstick, thanks for nuking a link to a very thoughtful essay. Let's try again. "The Capitalist Threat," by George Soros. http://www.theatlantic.com/ideastour/philanthropy/soros-full.mhtml \_ Maybe you could add a summary or something? \_ I did that the first time and it was immediately nuked. Let's try again. \_ OH hey, this is the famous "relexivity" essay. I thought I recognized it. Yes, this is a very interesting idea from Soros, but not light reading. \_ Essays sometimes say more about the author than the subject matter. We don't have good models for how real economies work, but we also don't have good models of income redistribution, or more generally good models of how to intervene in a society effectively to achieve given ends. A smart man once said that best way to help society isn't to crusade for a given cause but to work on eliminating biases in oneself. Otherwise you run the risk of dismissing a distressing truth as 'too absurd to be true,' for example. -- ilyas \_ Yeah, I remember in 2003 when I said that Bush had presented no evidence that Saddam Hussein had WMD and was dismissed as being "too absurd to be true." \_ My way or the highway, pal! You're clearly just a <insert random insult>. \_ Yes, I remember suggesting that there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein had WMD before the war and being dismissed as "too absurd to be true." |
2007/9/7-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47933 Activity:low |
9/7 Bush didn't lie, he just deliberately squelched any information that didn't support his pre-determined agenda: http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd \_ "Sidney Blumenthal served as assistant and senior adviser to Bill Clinton from August 1997 until January 2001." Tell me what Karl Rove writes about Clinton. Yeah, like I trust that guy. \_ ...the hell? Is Blumenthal reading the motd? \_ I think this is treason and people involved should be tried. |
2007/9/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47907 Activity:insanely high |
9/6 The surge numbers are a scam http://xrl.us/5ouu (WashPo) \_ I thought I had a cool URL shortener, but yours adds the name of the <title>. Cool! \_ It's all a scam. Giving the troop buildup a stupid name "THE SURGE" was stupid. It's all stupid. Goddamit. \_ "Opponents of the war would only be happy with Iraq if every day ended in a rainbow and everyone was crapping gum drops." \_ Why are you in favor of tooth decay? Why do you hate teeth? \_ Who are you quoting there, yourself? \_ Quoting because I liked the statement. Not sourcing it because no one here cares who it is. |
2007/9/4-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47893 Activity:low |
9/4 Do you think one of the 7 out of 11 Iraq war surge benchmarks they met is 'end all violence' or 'restore 100 percent power' ? \_ it make sense. afterall, we demand PLO to "end all violence" and insist that since there are still attacks in Israel, PLO most of sanctioned it. According to that logic, we sanctioned all these violence in Iraq too. :) \_ "The Iraqi government is "dysfunctional" and has met only three of the 18 benchmarks laid out by Congress for gauging its efforts on political reconciliation, according to a new independent report on Iraq by the Government Accountability Office." How do you get 7 out of 11 from that? \_ Bush-math: count the 4 that have been partially met, even if only 1% of criteria have been met. Kind of like how calling cards count minutes used. \_ even then it's 7 out of 18. -tom \_ "I cannot let this go by, the old-style Washington politics, trying to scare you with phony numbers." -GWB \_ Does anyone even know what those benchmarks are and if they are meaningful anymore given the current situation? |
2007/8/31-9/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47864 Activity:kinda low |
8/31 motd armchair historians, what do you think of bush's recent speech comparing Iraq to Vietnam? http://www.back-to-iraq.com/2007/08/dien-bien-fool.php \_ I think everyone who screamed "quagmire!" is just as stupid as everyone who thinks leaving Iraq now will lead to millions of dead like the killing fields in Cambodia. Iraq != Vietnam in that sense. The problem with leaving is that (once again) we will have meddled in something and put the lives of many locals on the line who trusted us and then fucked them by leaving. Each time we do that we lose face and credibility around the world making diplomatic efforts much much harder since we continue to build up a history of our word having no value. You break it, you bought it, you gotta fix it. \_ The problem is that it does not seem to matter if we stick around or not; we're not capable of fixing the situation. If we leave now rather than later, we will lose less American lives in the inevitable violence and the Iraqis may actually have a chance of getting things going on their own faster. \- everytime bush deals with a (living) historian, the historian has to school/disown/disclaim BUSHCO. YMWTGF "john dower", "alistair horne" etc. \_ An anonymous French politician recently agreed with you that the only way Iraq would see peace would be if the US left and let them slaughter each other until one side 'won' and then we/whoever could assist them in 'diplomatically' resolving their problems after the shooting stops. Of course at that point you have one side butchered, but hey, that's ok, right, since they're not Americans. Right? No. The right thing to do is stick around for a while now that their tribal leaders (this is a heavily tribal society unlike Vietnam) have figured out that AlQ is bad news. Places that were deadly a year ago are now quiet and no more dangerous than say, Oakland, is today. \_ And how many trillions of taxpayer dollars and how many thousands of American lives do we need to spend until we get to your Iraq utopia? \_ Strawman: No one said utopia. Iraq was never a utopia. How much blood and treasure you ask? You tell me what you think it is worth for the nation to have yet another failure where we specifically abandon our local allies to yet another mass murder event. Each time we do that we lose credibility around the world and encourage our enemies. Especially if we left right now when it looks like things have finally turned in our favor with new leadership and tactics and the tribes turning our way. Nothing is so American these days like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. \_ You guys have been claiming victory is right around the corner for about four years now. You will have to excuse me for not buying the bullshit anymore. Remember when Reagan left Lebanon after the Beirut bombings? Too bad Bush is no Ronald Reagan. \_ I think Bush is very much like Johnson. |
2007/8/30-9/3 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47834 Activity:high |
8/30 A Burning Man participant was found dead this morning, hanging from the inside of a two-story high tent, according to Mark Pirtle, special agent in charge for the Bureau of Land Managment. The apparent suicide would be the festival's first in its 21 year history, Pirtle said. \_ Am I alone in thinking that Burning Man is retarded? \_ No. \_ Definitely not. \_ Nope. \_ You are certainly not the only person who has never been there and knows practically nothing about it who has a very strong opinion about it. \_ I'm sure you've been to Guantanamo, Iraq, Darfur, and a Billy Graham Crusade, right? \_ I'm sure you've been to Guantanamo, Iraq, Darfur, and a Billy Graham Crusade, right? Or not, since you deleted this comment. \_ How much of my tax payer dollars are being spend on Burning Man? I think the Billy Graham Crusade is just dandy, btw. If people want to spend their own time and money doing things like that, that make them happy, more power to them. And no *I* did not delete this comment. More than two people Burning Man? I think the Billy Graham Crusade is just dandy btw. If people want to spend their own time and money doing things like that, that make them happy, more power to them. And no *I* did not delete this comment. More than two people use the motd, believe it or not. \_ How much does it cost to clean up the environment after they leave? What is the cost to the local communities to lock up all their stuff and keep their kids inside? (Yes they steal shit from the locals). Who pays for the cops and emergency services in the area to work overtime? Just some good clean fun, kids, all free! \_ Just like I said, the people who know the least about what they are talking about, have the strongest opinions. BLM inspects after the event to make sure it is totally clean. Dozens of volunteers stay for months until it is cleaned up. BM LLC pays for every dollar of police, fire and emergency service time. Any other misconceptions you want cleared up? \_ Thousands of people show up in the desert, run around naked, take a lot of drugs, have sex with random people for a week, don't bathe, burn a giant 'man', then drive home in their SUVs leaving behind (literally) tons of garbage in the environment for the locals and government to deal with. What was the cool part that I missed? \_ You dont leave your garbage out there. You take it with you. so often that means leaving it in a dumpster in Reno, but you dont leave it out in the desert. Actually I'm down with you spreading FUD about burning man that it sucks, it keeps idiots like you from showing up. please continue! \_ Don't worry. I won't go. I might work to stop BM, though! Enjoy it while it lasts! \_ I don't think a lot of sex goes on at Burning Man. Maybe you might try it once, then you figure out that having sex at Burning Man is terrible and should not be attempted by anyone. \_ Ok, so thousands of dirty people in the desert naked taking a lot of drugs, not getting laid, burning the 'man' and leaving a huge mess behind. I'm still looking for the cool part. \_ Where can I find pix of naked people in BM? \_ google. Or just go next year. \_ Better for people like you to stay away, since you already know everything anyway. -Been to BM six times \_ Wow, you are such an expert, glad to know you already know everything that 45k people do over a weeks time, even though your only knowledge is through the media. \_ Don't worry. I won't go. I might work to stop BM, though! Enjoy it while it lasts! \_ I've yet to see a single person post anything about BM being anything more than described: smelly people taking drugs for a week, leaving a huge mess behind. If you'd like to correct that 'misunderstanding', please do. And oh yeah, there's people doing 'art' and 'expressing their freedom'. Sorry, can't forget that. \_ Nope. No desire to encourage fools to come at all. Please stay away. \_ Stupid smelly hippies enjoying Burning Man: http://www.csua.org/u/jfl \_ Just because they are old doesn't prove anything. |
2007/8/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47818 Activity:nil |
8/30 http://tinyurl.com/ypcpb4 (washingtonpost.com) The GAO hates America, wants terrorists to follow us home, and encourages mushroom clouds over major U.S. cities |
2007/8/15-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47620 Activity:kinda low |
8/14 Torture: Not only illegal and immoral, it just doesn't work: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/07/torture200707 \_ unfortunately it takes until near the bottom of the last page to actually get to anyone saying it doesn't work. couldn't you have just quoted those 2 lines and saved us from reading 3.98 pages that didn't back up your statement? [I like when my posts get deleted. That way I know I hit a nerve. Keep up the censorship.] \_ "It was an extraordinary success story. But it was one that would evaporate with the arrival of the C.I.A's interrogation team." Paragraph four. But who's counting? \_ That is not the same as saying "it doesn't work". That is saying the FBI was there using a method that was apparently working and then the CIA showed up and used a different method. It doesn't say the CIA method didn't work. He may have had nothing more to say. It may be a technique that was not effective on this one person. The only place in the article that makes a general claim for the failure of the CIA's technique was the 2 lines 3/4s down on the last page. So who is counting? I am. You're seeing what you want to see. I am not making the case either way for torture working or not: I don't know, it isn't my field (thankfully), but this article doesn't say what you say it says until the 2 lines on page 4. My point? Quote the 2 lines or change your post to match what your article says. \_ Almost the entire article is a case of making evidence for the statement that torture does not work as an intelligence gathering tool. I could quote paragraph after paragraph, but that would still not change your mind about what you think you read. This is a very common rhetorical technique: build a case for a statement and then make it at the end of the essay. Simply stating it does not have the same effect (for what I hope are obvious reasons). \_ The entire article is about what happened re: the one guy once the CIA showed up. You could quote the whole thing but you won't be quoting anything that says that the CIA method does not work in the general case until 3/4s down page 4. If they had presented more than one case, made a general claim for dozens (or however many) cases where it failed, or something then sure, I'd buy it, but this article does not say what you say it says except for the 2 sentences as noted. \_ Or it does: http://csua.com/2006/09/21/#44481 \_ Torture works just fine. -- ilyas \_ you should ask Colin Powell for that. he paid dearly. \_ Your grammar sucks. Why should you live? |
2007/8/4-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47532 Activity:nil |
8/4 O'Hanlan and Pollack rapidly backpedal from their op-ed http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/11682.html \_ Liberal media, my ass. |
2007/8/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47517 Activity:nil |
8/2 One Trillion dollars later, the water is running out, the electricity is off 22 hours a day, and still no apology from the war's cheerleaders: http://www.csua.org/u/j9i \_ at least oh nevermind i'm too depressed to taunt anyone. \_ "Could" cost. Not has cost. And please stop referring to "economistsview". It's more of a crackpot site than Michelle Malkin. \_ But the cost of FREEDOM is PRICELESS! Give me FREEDOM or give me DEATH! FREEDOM! -Republican \_ Except in the case of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia where we're just fine with a despotic government. Same with China really. |
2007/8/1-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:47504 Activity:nil |
8/1 http://www.csua.org/u/j99 Hope on the Battlefield by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman Military leaders know a secret: The vast majority of people are overwhelmingly reluctant to take a human life. |
2007/8/1-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47503 Activity:nil 75%like:47501 |
8/1 Because of this increase in cooperation from local Iraqis in confronting al-Qaeda and other extremist groups, the number of weapons caches seized in Iraq has increased dramatically, already at 3,700 in the first 7 months of 2007. Only 2,726 terrorist and insurgent weapons caches were removed from circulation in all 2006. http://csua.org/u/j96 \_ Wonder how much of that weaponry came from us. http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,144661,00.html |
2007/8/1-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47492 Activity:nil |
8/1 "Democracy is hard" http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070801/ts_nm/iraq_dc_25 |
2007/7/30-8/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47469 Activity:moderate |
7/30 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30pollack.html A War We Just Might Win Never expected that title on the nytimes op-ed page. \_ Are you high? The NyTimes has been shilling for this clusterfuck since before it started (c.f. Judith Miller onwards). See Glenn Greenwald for a good response to this shite: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/30/brookings \_ The constant leaking of secret memos underminig the war is what has led me to that opinion, not anything that might make me high. -op \_ What's different here is that Kenneth M. Pollack is not usually a hawk or a fan of current policy in Iraq. Cf. his article on Securing the Gulf in Foreign Affairs magazine. (Easily Googleable.) That said, this op-ed remains at odds with most of what you read from my man, Juan Cole. -!pp \_ One of the main responsibilities of The Press in a democracy is to keep the people informed about what their government is doing, Bush Administration claims to be able to classify everything under the sun notwithstanding. \_ It is one thing to say we have secret prisons, it is another to announce which countries they're in causing diplomatic problems and yet another to print the tail numbers of the planes which puts lives at risk for no reason. There are degrees to things. Mindlessly printing everything just because you can is irresponsible. The story can get out without details that can get people killed. \_ Announcing which countries they were in was precisely the correct thing to do. The govt. that sanctioned the prisons was not about to abandon the project or admit wrongdoing; political pressure from other govts. is a a fine and measured response. Printing the tail numbers of the planes bespeaks a greater problem than merely negligence of journalistic integrity: it says we do not have people in the intel business who know how to carry out illicit operations. I don't know about you, but that level of incompetence scares the hell out of me. Best not to be conducting black ops in foreign countries, I suppose, but at least have the decency not to get caught. \_ So you think all the journalists who were aware of various activities over the last umtpeen decades should have published everything they discovered just as a 'lesson' to our intel agencies? Wacky. \_ You are responding to someone different than the pp, btw. I personally think everything except the tail numbers was fine, because when first confronted with the accusations, the WH response was to deny and stonewall, remember? Publishing the countries added veracity to the charges. Putting CIA agents life at risk was stepping over the line, imho, but not illegal. over the line, imho, but not illegal. Good job changing the topic from the NYTs constant pre-war cheerleading to the Freeper talking points though, I congratulate you on your verbal judo. \_ WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! DUBYA EMM DEEEES!!!! \_ I'm ok with publishing about foreign prisons. I'm not entirely ok with naming foreign countries as that can create a bigger mess than the prisons themselves and I don't think the media has the brains required to figure out when publishing can do more damage than the thing they're reporting on. I'm entirely not ok with tail numbers. There is absolutely no reason for that. It isn't news. I didn't comment either way on whether it is legal or not. I think it is stupid whether or not it is legal and it is not newsworthy or fit to print, as they say. BTW, I came into this a few posts after we left the NYT pre-war reporting behind so I can't take credit for the direction of the thread to where we are now. \_ The government should have admitted what they were doing. When the government denies denies denies you have to step up the level of proof. If the people in charge had actually stepped up and said, yes, we are doing this, then you wouldn't have seen as much details in the papers. \_ So anything a reporter finds out and publishes, the government should just go ahead and spill the whole story even if it puts American and allied lives at risk. Whatever. \_ Setting aside the plane numbers, explain to me how exposing the illegal kidnapping program put American and allied lives at risk. \_ In general, the government is accountable to The People, yes. I know for some reason the GOP has lost sight of this fundamental principle, but I still hold out hope that the "small government" types will regain control of their party. \_ Uh, no. The whole point of the R party is to preach COMMUNITY and SELF RELIANCE. Localized interest for greater good. You liburals just don't get it. \_ No, the R party is based on large national debts. \_ I would say we are 95%+ in agreement. \_ Compare Pollock's parroting of the official line with statements from the general who is actually training the Iraqi troops: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0727/p01s01-wome.html |
2007/7/24-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47400 Activity:low |
7/24 We could have won the war in Iraq if $PRESIDENTIAL_ELECTION_WINNER_2009 had the guts to see the war through to its conclusion. \_ Remember, no one will vote for Hillary or a Scary Black Man, so the Republicans already have the election sewed up! \_ I'd vote for Obama even though I don't agree with a lot of his policies simply because he doesn't come across as a lying power mad criminal scumbag with a multi-decade record of lying, fraud, theft, and abuse. \_ Maybe he just hides it well. Care to describe HRC's fraud/theft/abuse? Every politician lies. I bet you also lie. \_ I think he's too young to have committed any major crimes already. \_ At this point you seriously want me to make a list of HRCs frauds and abuses? You're completely unaware of them, huh? You were born and raised in some foreign land? \_ Well you could just put one or two of the most important instances, as you see it. Because no, I'm not aware of it. I have better things to do than follow the life of this woman so closely. Are you referring to the whitewater shit? \_ Frankly, outside of freeper and Ditto Head circles, I don't think anyone is aware of these allegations. The American public sure isn't. \_ So you believe that they haven't been aired or that only people on the right are politically aware enough to know what is going on? Certainly a great number of her 'events' got MSM air time so you must think only the right wing knows what is going on. Weird. \_ And yet, you still post no substance. |
2007/7/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47338 Activity:moderate |
7/19 hey wall cranky conservatives: give Ted Rall a read. Don't worry, I doubt he will change your mind about anything: http://csua.org/u/j6o So now my question is: why do you think this is? Why does the media listen to the rabid right wing, who are at this point batting .000, and never to the so-called "liberals," who, because they based their Iraq war opinions on fact rather than wishful thinking, were right? Why is that? conjecture about human nature welcomed. \_ You think Ted Rall is somehow new on the scene? I just read DK when I want to see that stuff. I get everything all at once on a single long page on every current topic. \_ I think for one thing he's mischaracterizing all conservatives as "radical right Bushists" and you're doing the same calling people "rabid right wing". \_ The so-called "liberal" media is owned and controlled by big dollar corporate interests. \_ Which still spews out liberal propoganda on a continuous 24x7 cycle. \_ Uh huh. That is why the NY Times, the Washington Post, the Atlantic Monthly, Fox News, etc all ran 100% pro-war articles Atlantic Monthly, Fox News, etc all ran pro-war stories in the months leading up to the Iraq War. Or is that all an example of "liberal" propaganda, in your worldview? http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=22437 \_ Of course they did. You have no idea why, huh? It is not the VRWC. It is because everyone in the media, in government, etc believed the intelligence reports that going back several years all said SH had WMD and was involved with AQ. I'm sure the tin foil paranoia thing makes for a better story though and really gets your blood boiling. Remember, always assume evil when ignorance or incompetence will do. \_ I see I have underestimated the uselessness of the MOTD. not only are there no comments about this, somehow editors have attempted to un-ask the question. -op \_ No, you posted a useless Ted Rall link. GIGO. Everyone here has too much clue, no matter their political beliefs, to take TR seriously or waste precious bits downloading his junk. Dailykos is a much more efficient source if you want to read that side of things. |
2007/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:47326 Activity:high |
7/17 we haven't argued about the latest useless congressional gesture to pull america out of Iraq and deny the simple fact we're gonna be there for the next 60 years like Korea/West Bank/ Japan, is everyone on vacation? \_ It's 7/18 now btw \_ We're in the West Bank? \_ How about Vietnam. Iraq is more like Vietnam, at least so far... \_ And our troops are still there! Oh, wait.... \_ How long were US troops in Vietnam? \_ Zero days after we decided to pull out. \_ just pointing out israel is still in the west bank. \_ And despite your ZOG fantasies, US != Israel. \_ sorry. didnt explain. when Israel invaded west bank they said they'd only stay a short time. They're still there, much to everyone involved's pain. \_ Ye-es, but WE are not THEM. \_ I agree, but I'm using an example from history. \_ Why *that* example, then? How about how the Gaulic tribes are *still* in France 1500 years later! The bastards! Save France for the French! Kill the Gaulic invaders! \_ you probably mean "gallic" or "gaulish" \_ garlic \_ Why do you hate the French? We must save France! \_ All we are asking for is an up or down vote. \_ Why is it "useless"? Let me guess, you are a war supporter... \_ Am not war supporter. I just think we're going to be in Iraq F O R E V E R. \_ I think President Hillary Rodham Clinton will have us out in less than six months after she takes office. We shall see. \_ You won't see. She's not getting elected. \_ And if she does get elected she won't be able to get the US out in 6 months. \_ That's true, too. She isn't exactly pushing hard on the "get the troops out now" agenda. \_ Not according to all the right wing newspapers. I think she is just tacking to the center and will get bowled over by events, after she wins. http://www.nysun.com/article/55102 \_ "... after she wins". You're trolling or drunk. I don't care what left/right wing newspapers say she says. I read what she says. \_ Really? Who is going to win in her stead? "None of the above?" \_ My dog. Anyone with a heart beat, age 35+. Charles Manson. Rowdy Roddy Piper. Anyone. \_ Are you the same guy who predicted that we would find WMD in Iraq? Just wondering, because I am predicting that Hillary will not get beaten by a Republican. BTW, I predicted that we would *not* find WMD in Iraq, so my record is pretty good. curious how good your track record is. \_ No. But given the lack of serious effort put into controlling the country after the attack started and all the trucks rolling in various directions before I wouldn't be at all surprised if we hear in 30 years they were there and the Bush admin decided it was less stupid to have invaded and not found them than invaded and let them slip away. Now then, if it was Roddy Piper vs. my dog, it'd be a really interesting race. Piper still has a lot of wrestling fans, but my dog can speak English better so he's going to win all 3 debates. \_ The US is not ready for a female President, especially a polarizing one like Clinton. The Dems should push hard to make sure she does not get the nomination, because if she does (or if Obama does) then I predict another Republican win. I have always voted Democrat for President (even though I am a 'decline to state') but I would not vote for Hilary Clinton. I would vote for Bill, though. \_ Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. |
2007/7/10-11 [Politics, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47243 Activity:nil |
7/10 See Michael Moore's hissyfit on CNN! http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=2823 \_ MM? Who cares? |
2007/7/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47230 Activity:low |
7/8 Looks like the US is finally, actually, going to start turning the corner in Iraq: http://www.csua.org/u/j3l \_ ummmm, your title is rather misleading. \_ more or less misleading than when Cheney told us that? |
2007/7/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47156 Activity:nil |
7/3 http://csua.org/u/j2u Steep drop in civilian deaths reported in Iraq \_ Meanwhile, steep increase in "Al Qaeda" deaths. Hmmmm. |
2007/7/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:47153 Activity:kinda low |
7/2 So the bombers in England were doctors. Popular leftist wisdom is that Muslims are desperate because of the poor conditions they live in and their lack of education. If only we worked hard to improve their conditions, then they would not grow up to be suicide bombers, goes the thinking, because they would have something to live for. Now that MDs are blowing themselves up can we at least begin to consider that perhaps religious wars are not rational? \_ Popular leftist wisdom is that religious people are nutters, not that Muslim's are desperate because they are poor. Did you invent that straw man all by yourself? \_ Actually, I've heard many people (including my law profs) say that if there was more prosperity for the ordinary people in the middle east there would be less suicide bombings, &c. and thus the sol'n to the problem is to improve conditions over there for (i.e. create a middle class, to promote stability). I do not know what the factual, historic or economic theory basis is for this assertion, but I have heard it before from self-described "lefties." -!op \_ Isn't that the neocon argument? If we just give them the trappings of US-style capitalism, they will luv us forever and want to be just like us? \_ You forgot the part where we knock the shit out of them first to show them who's best. \_ No, it isn't. The left isn't saying they need our economic system, just our prosperity. \_ I guess you're right, although that makes no sense at all. -!pp \_ It makes sense if you believe that there are other ways to achieve economic prosperity. \_ Sure, but name one that's proven to work as well. \_ It depends a lot on what you mean by "well" and what you mean by "our economic system." Does a Scandanavian-style mixed economy count? How about a State authoritarian Singapore style model? And not that I am prepared to defend it, but there are plenty of people on the left who think that State socialism is the way to go. Many, many (probably most people worldwide) are more interested in creating a base level of prosperity for everyone, not just a mass of phenomenal wealth for the top 1%. The US model is not widely emulated for a reason. \_ *Every* country has a top 1% with phenomal wealth. Good luck changing that. It would be a first in world history if it happened. \_ Uh, Cuba? \_ Looked at relatively, especially Cuba. \_ Any evidence for this statement? Everyone I know who has been to Cuba says otherwise, but maybe you have some hard facts to back up your opinion. \_ Oddly enough, I don't have Fidel's tax returns in front of me. Why don't you go ahead and tell us what "everyone [you] know who has been to Cuba says"? \_ They say that the standard of living is very flat and that no one lives ostentatiously. They also say that the hospitals are missing every other light bulb to save electricity. \_ Did they travel in the same circles as Castro and that tier? I'll grant you that it's flat for most, but if Fidel needs the latest/greatest tech for his health, the slope is steep. \_ Do you think the distribution of wealth is the same world-wide? Look at this graphical representation: http://www.lcurve.org In the US, the top 0.1% makes 8% of the overall income, in Sweden it is 1%. So I guess it depends on what you mean by "phenomenal". 10X average is a lot, but much less phenomenal than 80X, right? \_ 10X is phenomenal. 80X is too and doesn't make 10X any less so. Would you think 10X your salary was phenomenal or just 'a lot' because it wasn't 80X? \_ I think 10X average salary is merely "a lot." At this point it is merely semantics. \_ So if you got 10X your current you wouldn't think that was phenomenal? Okey dokey. Not much to be said to that when 10X is the difference between doing well enough and being able to retire early doing whatever you want with your life while you're still young enough to do it after only a few years of 10X. \_ I am already making 5X median income, so no, doubling my salary wouldn't really change my life that much. You aren't paying much attention to the words you are using. And no, even if my salary doubled, I wouldn't be able to retire soon. \_ Is your law professor a "leftist"? \- i think you also have to consider the thesis "there are things that matter to people other than job prospects" ... having your "homeland" under somebody elsese rule seems to be a good way to get people upset, for example. i am not too familar with what's under the hood of japanese suicider bombers [how willing they were etc], but at least it cant be glibly chalked up to religion, let alone islam. i dunno the socioeconomic status of the IRA, but they clearly werent desperately poor [not suicide bombers, but terrorists and willing to die (see eg BOBBY SANDS, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Irish_Hunger_Strike I dont think all the TAMIL TIGER suicide bombers are in desperate straits financially. So consider looking at the "dual" ... rather than focusing on what one person being a suicide bomber says about him, what does a steady availability of them say about how fucked up things must be. I think usually there are better structural explanations for many things than the vague cultural ones [like the talk in the 8-s about "asian capitalism" ... hey guess what, the japanese economy looks different from the US one probably more because of corporate structure laws and finance laws, not these vague "harmony and patience" arguments ... the german economy also looks different, in part because they have firm level unions. finally, the islamic suicide bombers phenomena may just be testimony to a sosophisticated and expert system of brainwashing, like JIM JONES, DKORESH etc. Anyway, the most on point suggestion I have is YMWTGF(alan krueger terrorism). i am not saying islam nor general life conditions play no role, but it is more complicated than that. bomber says about him, what does a steady availability (and climbing income of the candidates) of them say about how fucked up things must be. I think usually there are better structural explanations for many things than the vague cultural ones [like the talk in the 80s about "asian capitalism" ... hey guess what, the japanese economy looks different from the US one probably more because of corporate structure laws and finance laws, not these vague "harmony and patience" arguments ... the german economy also looks different, in part because they have firm level unions. finally, the islamic suicide bombers phenomena may just be testimony to a sophisticated and expert system of brainwashing, like JIM JONES, DKORESH etc. Anyway, the most on point suggestion I have is YMWTGF(ALAN KRUEGER terrorism). i am not saying islam nor general life conditions play no role, but it is more complicated than that. \- http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i39/39b01001.htm --psb \_ So George Bush is a leftist now. This explains much. \_ This has been in doubt for some time: http://csua.org/u/j2r (Boston Globe article on book by Robert A. Pape). However, it's common sense that Muslim Fundamentalist groups are attractive to the disenfranchised, particularly in our ally countries (like Egypt and Saudi Arabia) where odds of bettering your situation through the status quo are vanishingly slim. Cf. Islamic Rev. in Iran. \_ And because SA and E are dictatorships it is a good idea to bomb Americans and Europeans? I'm not following this line of thought. \_ Sorry, no, not my point. My point is that we still need to promote good economics and democratic politics in these countries if we don't want them to get taken over by religious fanatics. \_ Anyone who seriously makes this claim (about Islamic radicals) hasn't spent much time studying or thinking about it. The leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the Wahhabiists in Saudi Arabia are all educated, mostly middle class men. Now it might be true that they find themselves marginalized and with little opportunity to change their lot, but they are certainly not starving and not even poor, by their countries standards. Palestine is kind of a different story, but don't you think that not having jobs, having your freedom of movement and your right of statehood taken away might tend to breed resentment? \_ No one has a 'right of statehood'. Nations have always come and gone based on the (mis)fortunes of war, disease, natural disasters, etc. \_ Your opinion is in disagreement with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the UN, but I guess you are entitled to it. Who else in the world does not have citizenship rights? People don't neccesarily have the right to the state that they want, but everyone has the right to citizenship. \_ That's a 'right' on paper. It is not a natural right. And it is not my opinion that countries come and go, it is historical fact. Maybe you meant something else. \_ The right to citizenship comes and goes? I don't think so, but I guess if you want to bring back slavery, you are welcome to it. \_ No. The existence of nations/states. And no, most conquered people were not historically made citizens of the conquering state. When the Maya fell apart due to disease or whatever it was, there was no replacement state. If you lived behind the Iron Curtain I guess you were a citizen of something but that didn't come with any rights. If you were born in this country not that long ago as an Eskimo or continental Native America, then no you weren't a citizen. And no, slavery is not the only alternative to citizenship as I just demonstrated. \_ Stating it like that reminds me of the old historical cycle, middle class wants to be upper class so convinces lower class to fight for them. Sometimes the middle class succeeds and trades places with the upper class, but the lower class stays at the bottom. \_ More like lowest classes rebel after being starved out, make some idiot king and things are better for a short time until they have to do it all over again. Elected systems of government implicitly acknowledge this cycle by giving the people a non-bloody way to turn over the government every so often. That's why you'll *never* see a revolution in this country or any other elective government system. \_ Well, yes, elections _and_ a degree of complacency brought about by a pretty good standard of living even for the poor. The Upper Class would do well to remember that the distance between Harlem and the Upper East Side is really negligible-- and the distance between Compton and Beverly Hills even more so. \- See "great wall of grosse pointe" aka alter rd. |
2007/6/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47078 Activity:nil |
6/26 Another RINO joins the Defeatocrats: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1856687/posts \_ How long will the conversion process take for every Republican to become a "RINO"? |
2007/6/25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47062 Activity:nil |
6/25 From Matt Taibibibib Q: How long will it take for the Democrat hopefuls to realize that they\ cannot simply pull out of Iraq? A: I saw an old episode of “Homicide: Life on the Street†on\ the Sleuth channel the other night. In it a highly annoying Vince D’\ Onofrio falls between a subway car and the subway platform and he gets stuck there, with the train basically holding his guts in. The medics come in and they look at him and realize that if they move the train at all, his guts are going to fall out and he’s going to die. But if they do nothing, he’s going to slowly lose blood pressure and die. Either way, he’s going to die. Iraq is Vince D’Onofrio. It doesn’t overact as much, but it’s just as fucked. The bloodbath is coming as soon as we leave, whether thatâ€â„\ ¢s now or 20 years from now. But I’d be interested to hear your argument explaining how things are going to improve by us staying and spending a billion bucks a day or whatever playing Play Station in air conditioned trailers behind twenty-foot walls while Iraqis have six hours of electricity and pee into buckets and get their throats slit as soon as night falls. You’re probably right, a few more years of that, and this Sunni-Shia hatred thing will pass. |
2007/6/25-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47059 Activity:high |
6/25 Why do we keep hearing about how we're fighting "Al Qaeda" in Iraq? My understanding is that there are at least three competing groups of Sunni guerillas: "Al Qaeda in Iraq," Salafi Jihadists, and ex-Baathists. At any given time, it seems that these three different groups are referred to as "Al Qaeda." \_ You want to read my man Juan Cole: http://juancole.com \_ We are fighting Al-Queda probably 2 percent of the time. The\ rest of them are virulent american hating <IRAQI FACTION \_ We are fighting Al-Queda probably 2 percent of the time. The rest of them are virulent american hating <IRAQI FACTION THAT HAS HATED THE OTHER GUY FOR LAST FIFTY YEARS>. \_ This is what the Sunnis and Shiites should do http://img.7chan.org/jb/src/118195646798.jpg \_ What, get breast implants? \_ Hot! \_ Two reasons: 1) The American public is lazy and bored with the war and wants it made simple for them. 2) The Bush Administration has deliberately spread falsehoods about the operation from the start. Why would they stop now? \_ We're fighting them there so that we don't have to fight them here! God bless. \_ This reminds of the Vietnam-era helicopter gunner who was asked how he could shoot women and children. He replied, "It's easy, you just don't lead them as much." \_ That was a line from a fucking movie dude. \_ Based on an actual line as quoted by a correspondent. See "Dispatches" by Michael Herr. \- I thought In Pharaoh's Army was a better VN book. \- I thought IN PHARAOH'S ARMY was a better VN book. \_ A different experience written for different reasons. I thought that IPA's description of life on a boat was scarier than the description of VN. \_ Sidenote: Does a gunner actually need to lead when shooting a human being? Bullets from mounted guns travel much much faster than human can run. It's not like when a figher plane shoots at another figher plane. \_ I guess it would depend on how close the gunner was to the target. |
2007/6/20-24 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47024 Activity:very high |
6/20 Clint Eastwood's twin Iwo Jima movies triggered island name change. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070620/ap_on_re_as/japan_iwo_jima \_ Of course, the proper romanji is "ioutou" or "ioujima." Can't they get anything right? \_ more like they are reverting it to original name, and Iwo Jima was just a mistaken name brought about in WWII that stuck. \_ I find it intersting that with all the fuss over the Iraq war losses they are about just over half what the US lost just in the battle of Iwo Jima. \_ I find it interesting that you confuse an asymentrical war of choice entered on false principles and no exit strategy with a provoked war involving several major powers. \_ Exit strategy? War has only one exit strategy: kill the enemy until they stop fighting back. \_ yeah, and those 200K dead Iraqis are just a rounding error. \_ what we see reported daily is the 3000-odd US deaths. If the Iraqi casualties are reported, its usualy an afterthought. \_ if we are doing this right, US casualties is about 20,000. Consider that we only got less than 120,000 troops, US casualty rate is a bit high. \_ We don't count Germans and Japanese when we talk about WWII losses, either. \_ WWII was not an asymmetrical war. -tom \_ Well, it sort of was -- The USSR suffered something like 9 million military casualties and 16 million civilian casualties, but the were on our side. \_ Asymmetric warfare refers to the power of the actors, not the number of civilian casualites. -tom \_ USSR utilized asymmetric warfare tricks in territories conquered by the Germans by using 'partisans.' \_ You think the 'actors' were equally powered? Yes, that is why Polish troops charged German tanks on horses with lances. Read a book some time. \_ If Germany was so much more powerful than the Soviet Union, why did they lose the war? \_ If Germany was so much more powerful than the Soviet Union, why did they lose the war? \_ Hitler was a bad general, the Germans were fighting on multiple fronts, the US had a huge industrial base and was effectively immune from attack, the Russians destroyed everything as they retreated, the Russians were able to use&build industrial capacity in the far east well out of German range and ship weapons, etc to the front on trains. Is that enough reasons? \_ They did no such thing. This was a "ha ha stupid Polacks" propaganda story in Germany after the 18th Uhlans demolished a German infantry concentration at Krojarty. They retreated when German tanks moved up. Read a book some time. -John \_ Sounds like you got that from the unsourced wikipedia article. Got a URL? \_ Actually, no. There was a good description with sources on one of the military history boards I read If you are interested, contact me and I will dig it up when I have a moment. -John \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty \_ Ahem: "This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. (help, get involved!) Any material not supported by sources may be challenged and removed at any time. This article has been tagged since March 2007." This article is no better than me writing my own article saying it was Martians on magic brooms who followed their noble leader, Elvis, a Great Warrior from the future, into battle to defeat the Nazis. \_ OK, where's your reference for the Polish charging tanks with lances? \_ Lots of reasons. My theory is the Germans eventually fell to the power of the Russian Human Wave Attack, and the industrial output of the United States was able to prop up and fuel the Russians so they could concentrate on more important things like flinging themselves into battle with the Germans. Thanks, Russian people! You rule. The Brits helped a little, the French were too dazed from WW1, and I dunno what Italy was doing but trying to pave Ethiopia. \_ Watch some History Channel. More powerful does not always win. See American War for Independence. \_ Lots of people seem to underestimate USSR's industrial output, as did Hitler. USSR got a lot of US stuff but even at the war's start they had a huge number of tanks for example. \_ T-34!!! \_ US industry and fuel helped, but not as much as the Americans would like to believe. Personally, I think the biggest turning point in the war was when the Soviet leadership decided to actually fight, move everything beyond the Urals, etc. Western non-involvement would have pushed the storming of Berlin off by a year or two. Germany was fighting a hopeless war in the East. A modern industrialized nation in the 21st century can't seem to be able to pacify a country many times smaller than USSR. What hope did Germany have? Especially after they started shooting civilians, and antagonized the native population even more (!?) than Stalin himself. -- ilyas \_ If they had ignored Stalingrad and gone after Moscow, and not been diverted to Greece earlier in the year, I think they could have broken the Soviet government. They didn't want to occupy all of it anyway, just annex a big chunk of lebensraum. Still kind of a long shot. And Germany losing the air war in the west was critical. I think small groups of people today have better ways of terrorism than was available in the 40's. Iraq is also a limited case: the US does not take ruthless measures against the population. Hitler could have forcefully expelled huge numbers of people to alleviate these kinds of problems. Finland etc. would have managed their own zones as well. Also, I don't think the Russians were as suicidally zealous as Islamic militants. \_ So there you have it. The Greeks won WW II by beating back the Italians. It is pretty much what the Greeks have always claimed. Glad to see someone acknowledge it! --dim (Greek) \_ As a Greek I implore you to not claim yourself as a Greek, ever, again. The last thing we need is a dim- witted guy who claims to be a Greek \_ Napoleon took Moscow. So what? You can't win a war against Russia really, if Russia still has the will to fight. Germany simply had no way to control the sheer territory involved. Even in the occupied parts of Russia, there were huge parts where German soldiers simply dared not go. -- ilyas \_ Hmm. They "won" in WW1, sort of. They had a good chance at defeating the main military forces, if they acted fast enough. Controlling the actual land wouldn't be important except for supply lines... Look what happened to millions of Germans after the war, and what was happening to Poland, and most of the Palestinians. It's not like Iraq where you can't tell who's who and anybody might blow you up with a bomb made out of consumer electronics. \_ Germans got favorable terms vs. Russia in WW1 because Lenin thought it was prudent to get out of the war to consolidate power. The leadership didn't have the will to fight since they had bigger fish to try -- it took a quite extraordinary period of history for Germany to walk of history for a country to walk away from a 'land war in Asia'. Russia did employ 'terrorist methods' extensively vs the Germans in WWII. It was a very effective tactic due to the differences in technology, manpower, and land sizes involved. -- ilyas sizes involved. Additional food for thought: I heard that the two worst winters on record in Russia happened in 1812 and 1943. -- ilyas \_ I wish there was a HD version of the history channel. I think the bbc has 'THE WORLD AT WAR'? maybe i'll go buy it. love the war. love the MAIL CALL. I heard the mail call say that our b52 bombings convinced the north vietnamese to sue for peace.... i think it was actually a secret message from Mao that did that. I'm too apathetic to write them a letter and complain. |
2007/6/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47011 Activity:nil |
6/19 Rudy Giuliani failed to show up for single meeting of Iraq Study Group because of fundraising commitments. He was ejected from the panel. Media basically ignores story. http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-usrudy0619,0,2577021,print.story \_ The media ignores it for the same reason they love McCain. They're both on the left side of the (R) party. This isn't rocket science. \_ is he only Republican who has not been to Iraq? \_ Don't know, but the media seems to LUUUUURVE Rudy in a way they do with no other candidate. I wonder if we should start calling him "Free Ride Rudy." \_ So I guess you missed the discussion about his position on abortion? \_ Nope. They pretty much lurved him for that too. Look, if anyone else was running as the "WAR ON TERRAH" candidate, and it came out that they blew off ALL meetings about Iraq to raise money, their campaign would likely be over...especially with all these other Rs eager to prove they're "tougher than Bush." But not for Free Ride Rudy! \_ In other news, Free Ride Rudy's SC campaign chairman indicted for conspiracy to distribute cocaine: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/ravenel-indictment |
2007/6/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47007 Activity:nil |
6/19 Just FYI, there was a question about when "the surge" would be complete (at full strength). Apparently the buildup finished last week, and the first major campaign begins this week. \_ It's all a sham. We're not leaving Iraq. EVER. \_ Just like Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc.? \_ and those are the success stories! \_ Comparing those three with Iraq is intellectual dishonesty at its purest. \_ Yes because we actually fought in those places. We're not fighting in Iraq. Just getting troops killed with no real mission. \_ I thought they already started moving into AlQ controlled areas of the city a few days ago? Close enough I guess. Anyway, I've already read media reports saying the surge has failed and Reid has said it was a failure so let's can the whole thing. \_ We should give it at least 2 more Friedman units to fail. \_ http://www.csua.org/u/iyw (Failed States Index) Hey, with just a bit more effort we can get Iraq to number one! |
2007/6/15-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46964 Activity:nil |
6/15 Has the Bush Administration finally and completely lost it? http://tikkun.org/rabbilernerarticles/neocon/document_view \_ I believe it. We're not leaving Iraq. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive. \_ I know it seems like it will never happen, but we're supposed to get a new president in 18 months. Anybody from either party has got to be better than this gang of jackals. \_ as an American, I would say we just leave and cut our losses. We are not serious about solving iraq's problem anyway. We might as well just go home and repair the damage to our arm forces in the past couple years. And yes, I stand by my statement about we are not serious about solving Iraqi problem. Everything we do in Iraq since we invaded it has everything to do about our internal politics than anything else. Otherwise, we've be forming alliances with *ALL* Iraqi neighbors to come up with something agreeable. |
2007/6/10-13 [Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46903 Activity:nil |
6/10 Colin Powell joins the chorus asking to shut down Gitmo: http://www.csua.org/u/ivw \_ Please clarify - he is not talking about the base, just the prison. We need the base to invade Cuba when Fidel keels over \_ Please drop the intentional obtuseness. |
2007/6/7-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46874 Activity:nil |
6/6 Wait, how is Bush so dumb that he's managing to help bring the BLOODY COLD WAR BACK! Like we need this now... \- this has been going on for a long time. YMWTFG "bush, stephen cohen, russia, cold war). also bush is probably stupid enough he actually may thing ABM might work ... it's just a matter of ironing out some engineering problems, as opposed to cynically supporting it for pork-type reasons. \_ Cold War was a good war. \_ Russia is in no position to "bring the BLOODY COLD WAR BACK!". You know YELLING IN ALL CAPS! doesn't make your point stronger, right? Russia's economy is slightly smaller than Mexico's at last count. Their military is a wreck, most of their brighter scientists moved to Western countries. Putin is making the mandatory noises to keep his generals and ultra-right nationalists happy, nothing more. \_ Ohh, believe me, Russia can REALLY screw up the world if it choose to... buy simpley selling their weapon to people in Iraq, for example. \_ My question of the day is... where do we get all these money from? Aren't we suppose to allocate resources to fight a war? |
2007/6/6-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46872 Activity:kinda low |
6/6 WTF? Does Romney have even the faintest idea what a "null set" is? http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0706/05/se.01.html \_ I think it's more shocking that he apparently doesn't know that the IAEA inspectors were, y'know, in Iraq. \_ Let's be honest, Saddam did not fully open his country. Yes, the inspectors were there, but Saddam was at least attempting to make it look like he was running a shell game. I think it was for Iraqi domestic reasons, but he was not fully open. \_ You're wrong, and your president is a liar. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,895882,00.html Or maybe Saddam got to Blix! Maybe he was brainwashed into saying that Iraq was complying... Maybe we ignored him because we knew the spaceslugs had taken over his mind! \_ You read this and see, "Iraq is clean". I read this (I read the whole thing, did you?) and see several specific on-going violations as well as tons of bio/chemicals that Iraq claims were unilaterally destroyed with no documentation as well as numerous comments regarding long term lack of cooperation on Iraq's part spanning many years. Blix does not say Iraq is complying (as you claim). He says Iraq has started to work with Blix's people and gives examples such as reducing the "minder:inspector ratio" from 5:1 to 1:1. Not exactly the kind of stuff that leads one to believe "Iraq is complying". But whatever, DailyKOS awaits your endless wisdom on these matters. But maybe you're right. After we found Saddam but no WMD we should have said we were sorry, reinstated him, left, and sent flowers and cash. \_ In the words of Judith Miller, "We were proved fucking right." There were no weapons. The inspectors were in. They were getting the job done. They were pulled out so we could stop bombing. The claims Romney et al make are false. \_ What? RTFA. A does not imply B. \_ In October 2002, Blix came out and said "Iraq better behave with this round of inspections." In Feb 2003, he says "They seem to be behaving." Bush et al run around saying "HE'S NOT COMPLYING." They then say "GET THE FUCK OUT, WE'Z GON' BOM!" When the weapons are found not to be there, they say "Well, it doesn't matter.. We went in because he wouldn't let the inspectors in." No shit, "they seem to be behaving" doesn't mean "they're clean". But now we know "they were clean". And we know those who could have told us so were ignored because we wanted our fucking war. Romney says the inspectors were not allowed in. You say that he really meant "yeah they let them in, but they didn't <i>let them in." You're both wrong. Romney's a liar. You're stupid. \_ Yeah, I spent 100 hours (no joke) trying to make this point in the months leading up to the war, only to be called all kinds of names on the motd. It is nice to be vindicated and the GOP is going to go down in flames in 2008 if they can't figure out a way to distance themselves from this utter and complete failure in Iraq. \_ DITTOHEAD BULLETIN..."MOONBAT" IS OUT...NEW OPPONENT BELITTLEMENT POLICY IS TO TELL THEM TO GO BACK TO DAILYKOS...THIS IS NOT A DRILL. Just a note. Back when Rummy was "doing a fabulous job," he said "We know where [the WMDs] are." The claim wasn't that Saddam was being evasive, or that we thought there might be something fishy going on, THE CLAIM WAS THAT WE KNEW WHERE THE WMDs WERE. Which we didn't. -tom \_ Barking Moonbat to you. Because the Bushies are all so.... moderate. It is the rest of you that are extremists. \_ Sheesh tom, speaking of shell games... At least try to stay on topic. \_ So the WMDs weren't there. Either the intel was wrong or they were moved. Either way the Blix report does not say what the above poster says it says. The rest of your post is your standard personal attack drivel, as expected. \_ Either the intel was wrong, or they were moved, OR RUMSFELD WAS 100% FULL OF SHIT. -tom \_ Uhm, yeah. Why do you bother? What does this have to do with Blix's report or really, anything at all? Rumsfeld isn't even mentioned on this thread until you brought him up. Off your meds? \_ "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and East, West, North and South somewhat." - Donald Rumsfeld "I never said we know where the weapons are." - Donald Rumsfeld \_ ALERT...ALERT..."OFF YOUR MEDS" WAS DEPRECATED AS AN INSULT AFTER THE GREAT HONORABLE RUSH LIMBAUGH WAS CAUGHT USING PRESCRIPTION DRUGS...PLEASE CEASE AND DESIST USING THIS TERM IMMEDIATELY. DITTOHEAD CENTRAL, OUT. \_ I think he means there's no sensible answer to the question. |
2007/6/1-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46816 Activity:nil |
6/1 Sunnis revolt against al-Qaida http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq \_ Iraq the Model says, "Well, not so much." http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2007/05/red-on-red-in-amiriyah.html (Note: that this is a blog by an Iraqi, but has been often accused of being a fake put up by a Bushite.) |
2007/5/31-6/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46803 Activity:nil |
5/31 How long till the HL mods show up with it? http://www.csua.org/u/ite |
2007/5/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46796 Activity:nil |
5/30 Baghdad has always been at war with Oceania: http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5859/previewbustyyounggirls2pn.jpg |
2007/5/30-6/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46792 Activity:kinda low |
5/30 Just like we said, Bush refuses to commit to a timeline for leaving Iraq because he plans to *never* leave: http://www.csua.org/u/it2 \_ I'm a bleeding heart liberal. I don't think we're ever leaving Iraq. \_ We finally left the Philipines, so I wouldn't say never, but... \_ Right after we leave Bosnia, South Korea, Germany, Britain, and Japan. I miss any important ones? \_ Cuba, Hawaii, Utah, Spanish Florida, Texas, Puerto Rico, The Confederacy... \_ Thanks, I knew there were a lot more. I was just thinking more modern times but you added a bunch of good ones. I'm not sure The South counts but maybe some people living there would disagree. \_ If you're gonna count Utah, Hawaii, and Florida, you may as well count the who dang country. \_ No, your understanding of history is weak. Utah, Hawaii, Florida (and Texas) were forcably annexed. Not true for all of the nation. \_ Do you really want me to list all of the countries that \_ Do you really want me to list all of t he countries that America has stationed troops in where they are no longer there? Mine is bigger than yours... America has stationed troops in where they are no longer there? Mine is bigger than yours... \_ Oh thank God we actually left more countries than we still have troops in years or even decades after a conflict has ended. You had a point? \_ We'll leave Iraq when the oil is all gone... |
2007/5/29-6/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46780 Activity:nil |
5/29 Kiowa shot down by machine-gun fire, two Bradleys on QRF sent to recover bodies taken out by road-side bombs, 8 U.S. soldiers killed. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/29/iraq.main/index.html \_ "Black Hawk Down" |
2007/5/28-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46776 Activity:nil |
5/28 Anti-war critic loses son in Iraq. Dad is a professor of intl relations, was officer in Vietnam War, West Point grad, and got Ph.D. in U.S. diplomacy from Princeton. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1834549/posts http://tinyurl.com/22fsh2 (washingtonpost.com) \_ sad, but nothing new. Lots of these pro-war guys, including policy makers, are talking tough, but not willing to risk their lives when it's their turn. Through out the history, war munggers tend to be the chicken shit. \_ How is an anti-war critic a pro-war guy? |
2007/5/27-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46773 Activity:high |
5/27 "But in a world saturated with selfhood, where every death is by definition a death in vain, the notion of sacrifice today provokes puzzlement more often than admiration." from a WSJ op-ed (which I didn't/couldn't read) After seeing tonight's 60 Minutes, I think this applies to the whole country. Unless you have had a loved one in harm's way, felt that dread and loneliless for 15 months, the resulting pride when it's all over is unfathomable to anyone who hasn't gone through that anguish (or served themselves). \_ huh? \_ 60Min piece was about an Iowa National Guard unit in Iraq. They lost a couple guys, but you also saw the effect it had on their family at home. The point is that military personnel and their families are bearing the entire burden of this war. Whether you "support the troops" or not, it doesn't matter because the vast majority of the nation has nothing at risk. When you've felt that risk, and then it's all over, the pride and awe you feel about their service is unimaginable to someone who hasn't. Maybe if a larger cross section of the country had something at risk, then there would be more common ground. So we could disagree, but with respect for each other. Instead the military folk feel like they have to support the President at any cost, because the other side are peaceniks who call those who serve stupid (which I have personally witnessed). \_ that is why I've been arguing that we either reinstate the draft or not invade Iraq at all. Even before we invaded Iraq, something like 70% of US population support the war. I suspect if husbands/sons/daughters need to be part of the war, then, the support would be a lot less. In the end we are loosing this war mostly because Bush knew he could never won a popular support of the war if bulk of population has to make sacrafice. That is why he pitched the war as quick, cheap and few blood are required. Since entire war was fought under false pretense, I am arguing that there is nothing wrong for people gotten sick and tire of it, and cut our loses and focus on places where that actually matters. \_ The 'war' part of the war was quick and cheap. They screwed up the aftermath having had no plan for the post- conquer part. Please don't confuse the two. And what we're doing now is hardly a war. Our troops go on patrol, get shot at, get blown up, and go back to base. Repeat the next day. \_ The 'war' part of the war led inexorably to this aftermath. This was predicted, lied about, and finally ignored by those who wanted it. It's not "confusing the two" to bring it up. \_ Duh. Yes without an invasion there wouldn't be a post-invasion period. Sheesh. Now then back here in Reality World: if they had a post-invasion plan we wouldn't be here, if they declared martial law and took real control of the country on day one, we wouldn't be here, if they allowed the troops who have been there for years to actually engage the enemy and use their training we wouldn't be here. \_ I think your burden of proof on this statement is higher than you can cash in. These are big ifs with even bigger assumptions behind them. As sold, this whole exercise was a gigantic nation-building effort. However, this is something we've never figured out how to do. I submit that the post-invasion plan was offered and summarily rejected. They don't want it actually stable. In a more stable country, the funds we dump in there might be accounted for. We might not be able to strongarm them into passing production sharing agreements with the oil companies. In short, we couldn't steal as much as we can now. This is why you can't separate the two and say "if only". \_ I would not risk my life to fight in Iraq unless I was forced to do so. I don't believe in an afterlife. Maybe all those religious people should go fight, since they have nothing to lose. They say >90% of the US is religious. All religions \- maybe by beliefs, but not by actions. teach that death is basically fine. Or actually more than fine... something to look forward to. So then: why should any of them give a shit? \_ Because they don't teach that death is fine or good for starters. And the draft the other people are asking for is the 'forced to do so' part. \_ death -> heaven, virgins, nirvana etc -> yippee \_ ignorant and silly simplification -> meaningless drivel -> wasted bits \_ So all you can offer is the "you're wrong" argument. Thanks for playing. By the way, your assertions are ignorant, meaningless, and silly. And wasted drivel. Wow I feel better now! \_ No. I offer the obvious: you made a gross and negligent over reaching and ignorant assumption about a) all religions and b) all religious people and then reached an obviously false conclusion that religious people should all want to die. "Thanks for playing" as they say. I understand that hating all religious people is a form of religion on the motd, but that doesn't make for a sound logical argument. And for the record, I'm not religious, so don't bother going there. \_ I didn't say I hate all religous people and didn't say they all want to die. Are you mildly retarded perhaps? The underlying \_ Are you? What did you add to this by resorting to lame personal attack? All it shows is your frustration with your inability to debate with facts and details. School yard level insult is what not-very-bright people fall back on when they're unable to make their point. In your case, you don't have one so it is understandable. \_ I completely agree. Look at your first reply in this thread and note the adjectives employed. The personal dig here is that you repeatedly put words in my mouth. \_ Communist! point is clear and your posturing doesn't address it. The vast majority of religious people are Christian in this country. Is it not true that Christianity teaches that we have "eternal souls" and good people go to "a better place"? (and/or achieve eternal life, the specifics are irrelevant) \_ Sigh, still missing the obvious. Just because they say good people go to Heaven and all that doesn't mean they advocate suicide. Since you mention Christians specifically, no, it is a sin to kill yourself. Again, you take a tiny shred of knowledge and over extend it to a false general case and then misapply your own false determination of how Christians (or others) should be to determine (again falsely) that any Good Christians should be in favor of death, suicide, etc, etc. I'm pretty sure no one here is so blindly hateful of religious people that they actually believe what you're saying, thus you must be a troll. I'm done. Did you have fun trolling me? \_ Did I say anything about suicides? No. Why are you talking about suicide? I see a trend in your "debate" style. \- http://www.slate.com/id/2154856 \_ I did not have the Bush twins in mind. I was thinking of us. -op |
2007/5/23-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46732 Activity:moderate |
5/23 Since the surge, is there anyway we can find oout rather sectarian killings in Bagdad has decreased or not? IMHO, it is the decrease of sectarian killings among Iraqis, not decrease in US troop casualties that indicates the success of operation. \_ The surge is still happening. \_ Is there a scheduled end date for the surge, or does even asking that question give aid and comfort to the enemy? \_ Why do you hate... oh fuck it... \_ I'm not sure what the point is to answering questions from ignorant people who have already made up their minds but whatever. It isn't an act of treason or America-hating but simple stupidity. \_ Anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant? Interesting worldview. \_ No. But anyone like the op who clearly knows nothing about the details of an event but has already formed an opinion is ignorant as well as not very bright. \_ It's supposed to be complete this summer, with the generals evaluating its success or failure in September. \_ The whole 'surge' thing is silly. The evil fucks bombing the shit out of each other can just hold back for a bit while this 'surge' thing is happening and everyone will be happy. We should either pull out now or commit massive resources to Iraq, 20k more troops is not going to accomplish anything. \_ The point is to clear them out of the city, establish real security, and earn the trust of the people. That way it is much harder for them to return. Given a choice of daily bombings vs. going safely about their lives most people will choose a normal life and turn in the thugs. What did you think the point was? \_ It's a great idea, but the execution misses the point: we needed more troops at the beginning and a better strategy than just more bodies now. \_ I agree that they screwed the pooch on day 1 but we're now where we are. Instead of General Petrous(sp?) surge plan what would you suggest that would improve safety, suppress or eliminate thugs and eventually allow us to leave without leaving the country in a real civil war? If we walk away now the current level of violence will look like a game of candyland. Complete elimination of all violence won't happen. The most pacifistic EU countries still have violent crime, but it can be reduced to more civilized levels. \_ I think the whole entrenched thug thing is a thousand years of the 70 percent Shiite/20 percent Sunni/10 percent Kurd hatred mix. They all hate each other. The US presence there doesn't make them hate each other any less, or more. We just can't win this huge entrenched guerilla war. We don't have a magic time machine. We also have no way of deciding when we have 'won'. So either we should pull out NOW, or flood the fucking country with armed force, aid, and us state dept personnel for the next 20 years. we've really fucked up. \_ Despite what the media tells you most guerilla wars are won by the government side, historically. What we lack isn't men or aid or state department flunkies. It is the will to win. Our politicians are no longer leaders, they are more concerned with the next election cycle and the polls than doing what needs to be done. And I mean our entire government, not anyone from either of the silly parties. \_ What is this 'Will to win'? Do you mean 'kill huge swaths of the population, civilian and guerilla, and by default killing all the insurgents'? That's the only way I can think of historically of the gov winning a guerilla war. I agree with you then, we do not have 'the will to win'. I mean really, this is pissing me off. What is 'the will to win'? \_ It is not at all clear that the U.S. presence in Iraq is reducing the violence there. The reason we're not leaving is that we're afraid that our sham government will be overthrown and replaced with something opposed to the U.S. -tom \_ Why do you think it's a sham government? \_ Which part of Iraq outside of the Green Zone cares about that the government has to say? \_ All of it. Which part doesn't? \_ I don't agree. I think the areas of the country where all of the car bombings go off feel the Iraqi gov is not protecting them. \_ The guys who are saying this are the same ones who told us that Iraq would be a "cakewalk" and that Saddam Hussein had WMD. I am not sure why you are still listening to them, given their track record so far on Iraq. \_ It was a cake walk. He probably did or at least had the capacity to have them again in a few months of free trade. Because General P. wrote the book on modern guerilla warfare based on real world experience and doesn't have a track record so far on Iraq. What are you talking about? Do you even know? |
2007/5/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46729 Activity:nil |
5/23 http://tinyurl.com/36mxpa (latimes.com) A day in the life of U.S. soldiers patrolling west Baghdad |
2007/5/22-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46722 Activity:nil |
5/22 http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/316612_secondsurge22.html Yes, definitely a surge. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely not an escalation. Definitely. \_ When do we get another Aircraft Carrier landing? |
2007/5/21-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:46713 Activity:low |
5/19 I think Carter was a wimp. I read the blackhawk down guy book and I think he tried to form a reasonable response to the Iran hostage crisis, but he just couldn't get it together. Whether it was the incoming Reagan administration's fault, remains a conspiracy buff's dream. That being said, the Iraq War fuckup is like 8 million times worse. Goddamn Bush. \_ I'm sorry to see what I figured for a weak troll get any responses, although I think you're probably half of them. \_ Hey, don't worry, Carter is already backpedaling http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18759682 Carter said, "They were maybe careless or misinterpreted." He said he "certainly was not talking personally about any president. \_ Which of course means he's just senile. \_ Weird, I dont think he was harsh enough. The Bush administration should be run out off office with flaming pitchforks and driven into the sea. \_ just try him for treason after he get out of office. \_ Before or after he's moved to his new ranch in Argentina? Oops.. Sorry, it's in Paraguay. \_ You mean "In The Company Of Heroes"? |
2007/5/18-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46687 Activity:high |
5/18 To the troll who was asking me why I was for the war in Iraq, why don't you ask Senator Clinon? Just in case you wanted to know, here's her speech: http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html \_ Why? Are you saying you would vote for her? \_ Commander-In-Chief Hillary Rodham Clinton. Doesn't it have a melodious sound? Oh, btw, she is against it now. Why haven't you changed your tune? \_ It'll never happen. She wouldn't even be in the race much less considered a serious contender if she wasn't a MSM beloved Clinton. So many long for the return of the Bill Clinton days they'd support anything with his name even though she's nothing like him. Out here in the real world she has negative ratings so high that there's no way she can win the Presidency and they only get worse for her as she pisses off the left. The right already knows her while the left continues to figure it out more each day. \_ The Right has had her on its list of hated people since WJC got elected. They know what they want to think of her, nothing more. She's a lot more than a feminazi caricature, and you wrong yourself to miss that. \_ Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth? I never described her as little "more than a feminazi caricature". If you can't reply to what was said, please don't. You completely ignore my comments on the number of people on the left who have learned to dislike her while inventing something from whole cloth I didn't say. \_ If the comment does not apply to you, don't take it as such. However, many on the right have her pegged as a feminazi caricature, and she's much more than that. \_ I think if you spend your time arguing someone is 'more than just a feminazi' you have already lost the image war. \_ You know, it's surreal conversations like this that remind me why I don't bother with Usenet anymore. *shrug* It's the Right that's written her off as a FemiNazi. Among people who think (read: non-dittoheads), labels like that just stick. \_ Are you the same guy who predicted that the Iraq War would be a good idea? \_ aaron? \_ No. I think when they didn't declare martial law on day 1 it was over. Everything that happened after that as Iraq's situation spiraled down was stupid. And calling it a War is just wrong at least as far as our troops are concerned. They aren't fighting anyone. They go on patrols, they get shot at a lot, sometimes roadside bombs go off. There are near zero efforts to find and go after any of the various forces trying to destabilize the country (for political reasons). I know you were just being snarky but I figured I'd give you a real answer anyway. \_ Not entirely being snarky. Just pointing out the fact that the Right Wing Oracle seems to be broken these days, so the fact that Republicans are all 100% convinced that Hillary is "unelectable" doesn't neccessarily mean that this is so. \_ Read it and weep: link:www.csua.org/u/iqc \_ don't be stupid. \_ TradeSports has been pretty on target with most of its predictions. Do you have a better prediction market? \_ So that was a tradesports link? It doesn't work for me now. I just looked on there and they have Hillary at 40:100 to win. I thought Obama had a much better chance. They also have Gore on there. I guess Gore might join late. Gore vs. Clinton? I have no idea how he'd do. I think he could win the presidency. The problem with him is he has associated himself with a controversial issue. Someone like Giuliani is bland as white bread. You can't really complain about him because all he says is he likes lower taxes and all the usual bullshit. He's probably corrupt but the American people don't care about that. He looks like he's in the mafia (omg racist). |
2007/5/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46678 Activity:kinda low |
5/17 emarkp, why did you support the Iraq War? -anonymous coward \_ Hi troll! Why are you using the past tense? -emarkp \_ Ok, very well. Why do you still support the Iraq War? -!op, anon coward #2 \_ Hi troll #2! I doubt I can say anything you haven't heard. -emarkp |
2007/5/16-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46663 Activity:kinda low |
5/16 Why do we have a war czar? The U.S. hasn't had one for as long as I can remember. Isn't it POTUS -> SecDef -> CENTCOM -> Iraq/Afghanistan? Is it that Dubya cannot handle Bob Gates' gayness? \_ It's "Execution Manager" now. John Stewart has a good explaination: http://www.devilducky.com/media/60890 \_ Commandering is hard. Bush is tired. \_ Maybe because the POTUS needs to deal with the whole world? Having a close aide on it 24/7 makes sense. \_ But that's the SecDef. \- it's the same thing as the intelligence czar ... that is what the DCI is supposed to have been. the DCI is supposed to have been. "this is a 3star operating in a 4star environment" --LPANETTA \_ Not only is this guy a 3-star, but he's active duty - i.e., they couldn't find any person fool enough to volunteer for the job, so they ordered someone to do it. \_ Because Bush can't tie his own fucking shoelaces, let along be the commander of the executive branch. \_ You misunderstand: the War Czar will simply be another layer to insulate the CinC from having to take responsibility for a failed military policy. \_ Manager Training 101: Find a patsy to throw under the bus. \_ I'd put it slightly differently: This looks more like an attempt to blame the military for a failed *political* policy. \_ Which is how Iraq is being fought, as politics not as a war which is why it is a mess. \_ Well put. -pp |
2007/5/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46650 Activity:nil |
5/15 This is a followup message to http://csua.com/?entry=39155 How is your brother doing? \_ No comment? I'm guessing both of the brothers are now serving in Iraq and have not been able to access csua. Either that, or they're killed. |
2007/5/15-17 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46638 Activity:nil |
5/15 Iraqi army shows you how to hold an assault rifle http://tinyurl.com/2arlu2 (news.yahoo.com) http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070512/481/bag11705121526 http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070512/481/bag11305121525 \_ Almost as good as Zarqawi using the machine gun. \_ Our marines hold assault rifles that way as well in some situations. Like close quarter combat, I believe. \_ Since when are assault rifles belt fed? 2/3 of those pictures show 'machine guns' |
2007/5/14-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:46631 Activity:high |
5/14 I hear there are soldiers captured in Iraq by Al Qaeda. But Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi tell me that Al Qaeda isn't in Iraq, and that the war in Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terroism. How can that be? \_ Al Qaeda out-sourced the jobs to Iraq amid rising health-care costs and growing influences from labor unions in Afghanistan. \_ Few jobs are harder than being a strike breaker in Afghanistan. The last I heard the strike breakers went on strike due to low wages and poor health care plans. \_ What else do the voices in your head tell you? \_ Which part do you think are voices in my head? \_ You have a URL where Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi tell you this right? \_ Here's Pelosi: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Pelosi_Its_sad_Bush_blaming_Iraqi_1128.html http://urltea.com/k25 (rawstory.com) \_ But wait, you said Pelosi told you that there were no Al Qaeda in Iraq, but she says that they are there. Are you hallucinating again? \_ House Speaker-elect Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) told reporters on Wednesday that she feels it is "sad" that President Bush continues to blame Iraqi insurgent violence on al Qaeda. "My thoughts on the president's representations are well-known," Pelosi said. "The 9/11 Commission dismissed that notion a long time ago and I feel sad that the president is resorting to it again." \_ "What proportion of the Sunni resistance do you think al Qaeda in Iraq is responsible for? It's a handy tag, but in reality is it 10 percent, 50 percent of what we would loosely call Sunni resistance or insurgency?" -Pelosi You really have a reading comprehension problem. \_ No, that was the question a reporter asked the spokesman. I think you have the problem. \_ Fair enough, but you still haven't given me a quote where Pelosi denies the existence of Al Qaeda in Iraq. \_ Try reading. \_ I read the article, it says we shouldn't blame the violence on Al Queda because most of it is sectarian. How is it possible to interpret Pelosi's statement and come out with "there is no Al Queda" in Iraq? Show us your balloon animal twisting skills ... And Boxer: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/21/lkl.01.html \_ Where exactly does she say that there are no Al Qaeda in Iraq? \_ "I think the reason so many of us feel strongly that we need to change what's going on in Iraq is, we need to free up some resources to get back to getting al Qaeda. You know, the other side keeps saying the war on terror is the war in Iraq. Not true." we need to change what's going on in Iraq is, we need to free up some resources to get back to getting al Qaeda. You know, the other side keeps saying the war on terror is the war in Iraq. Not true." \_ that doesn't say there are no al qaeda in Iraq. \_ I think fuckers have kidnapped our soldiers. Do I think it's "al-queda"? \_ I think fuckers have kidnapped our soldiers. Do I think it's "al-queda"? Doubt it. Al-Queda would have thought a less stupid name than "Al-queda in Iraq". It's probably Shiites or Sunnis who ALREADY LIVED IN IRAQ WHO HATED EACH OTHER FOR DECADES BUT SADDAM KEPT THEM QUIET. fuck. THEM QUIET. fuck. I wish the Mormon Necro-Bot would lay waste to the Sunni Triangle. \_ Saddam didn't 'keep them quiet'. He butchered them but you knew that, trollboy. \_ If the difference between Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda in Iraq confuses you, you probably missed the variable declarations. Research harder. |
2007/5/14-16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46616 Activity:nil |
5/13 Say, speaking of irony, who was head of Public Policy at Chevron when it was paying kickbacks to SADDAM under the UN Oil-for-Food program? Way to go, Condie! http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/10741.html \_ What's so ironic about members of the Bush administration being consistently corrupt? \- http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43901 \_ Does it bother you at all the Pelosi is stuffing public cash into her family's businesses? Or DiFi has been doing the same for her husband's? \_ Yes, yes, yes, when you have enough evidence, contact your local Bush-appointed US Attorney who will almost certainly leap to indict. Oh, wait, you have no evidence of wrong- doing? Well, don't let that stop you making accusations! |
2007/5/8-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:46562 Activity:high |
5/8 Fairly incompetent terrorist plot to attack Fort Dix foiled. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070508/ap_on_re_us/fort_dix_plot \_ Thank goodness torturing suspects in gitmo, warrantless spying on terrorists, and the Patriot act yielded valuable intel which allowed the government to catch these guys! \_ There's a point to be made but "warrantless spying on terrorists" is probably not the message you were looking for. \_ Isn't this an ideal time to raise the terror alert to orange? What? You mean the sheeple see through it now? What about the scary Canadian spy coins??? http://www.csua.org/u/ink \_ Terror alerts only happen right before elections. \_ To op: Nice editorial. People would have thought Cho was incompetent before he killed 32 students. Oh, and 3 of the guys were in the country illegally. \_ Oh, I wasn't trying to say it wasn't a good thing to stop them. I'm very happy they caught these bozos, as they probably would have succeeded in killing a few people. Nevertheless, the plan was pretty incompetent. For one thing, Cho didn't attack an army base. -op \_ Bringing their videos to a store wasn't the smartest move but beyond that, they were training, they had weapons, they had jihadi propaganda videos, they had scouted out the base and if some video clerk hadn't reported them this would have been headlines about an attack that killed X many American soldiers on an American military base on American soil. You don't think that would have had the impact they were looking for? \_ I can't speak for the impact, but they can't have had many weapons. "The six were arrested Monday night trying to buy AK-47 assault weapons, M-16s and other weapons from an FBI informant." And they had unrealistic expectations '"You hit four, five or six Humvees and light the whole place (up) and retreat completely without any losses."' Incompentents can still kill people, it's not hard. \_ Missing the point. They don't have to kill hundreds or even a dozen. Or any. Just launching the attack would get them what they're looking for. They are terrorists, not a formal army looking to seize territory. \_ What do you think they are "looking for"? Another irrational over-response by the American people? \_ Yes. And a propaganda victory. What else do terrorists want? They can't win any sort of conventional fight so what else can they do? \_ Well, they are "winning" in Iraq and Afghanistan, aren't they? If they can convince the US to start enough silly pointless wars, they can win for real. \_ No one is winning in Iraq or Afghanistan, so no they aren't. And no, they can never win for real. It is just an endless stream of nicks and cuts that wear down society. Unless you're one of the people who thinks that an internal movement of Muslims are going to rise up in this country and take over or something like that. If so then we're done because I don't have time right now to talk with crazy people. If not then I'm still here. \_ Even Bin Laden does not have "overthrow the American government and replace it with a Muslim theocracy" as one of his \_ You're kidding? Go read some of the English versions of the various terrorist web sites. The long term goal is stated quite clearly as nothing more than world domination. stated goals. The general goals of Al Qaeda have been to drive the infidel from the Holy Land (check), drive the infidel from Iraq (checking), and drive the infidel from Isreal. They also want \_ You forgot that whole bit about once a land is Muslim land it is always Muslim land. You might want to talk to Spain about how they're looking forward to being 'rescued' from the evil West after they rejoin The Grand Caliphate. to replace the secular governments of various Muslim states with theocracies. The idea that they even want to occupy America is just a fantasy cooked up by Coulterites to scare the sheeple. \_ I don't read Coulter. I read and listen to what the various bin laden types are actually saying and they say what their goals are quite loudly and clearly. It's about taking over the world and nothing less. Now then, given that, I still don't believe there is some sort of large scale conspiracy among American Muslims you'll find in Coulterite style op/eds, but the foreign extremist types absolutely have world domination as their long term goal. \_ Sure, a few very isolated and very weak extremists have as their goal "world domination." So do a lot of extremist, kooky, powerless groups. The only way you give them power is by paying too much attention to them. Show me the Bin Laden statement where he claims "world domination" as a goal. You cannot because he does not. \_ I bet to differ. Plenty of people are 'winning' in Iraq. In fact it looks like the political aims of just about fucking everyone in the world EXCEPT THE UNITED STATES is winning in Iraq. Remember when people were interviewed that Bin Laden told them it would be really funny if he could taunt the United States into getting into an unwinnable war that would overextend its resources? REALLY FUCKING FUNNY. \_ Mission Accomplished! \_ Please elaborate on who is winning and in what way. The Suni who once ruled the country are reduced to pathetic road side bombings. The Shia now sort of rule the country but in a very weak way and various Shia leaders get blown up every day. The Iranians are looking desperately for an 'in' but the best they could pull off was capturing and humiliating some British navy people. The Saudis had the Americans move a bunch of military bases to other nearby countries or further out in the sand which is sum-zero. The Syrians get a minor perverse pleasure in driving thugs to the Iraqi border but aren't getting any real benefit. The Turks now have a semi-autonomous Kurdish state on their border which is the last thing they wanted. Ah yes, we have found a winner. The Kurds now have a semi-autonomous state. Ok, you're right, someone is winning in Iraq. It's the Kurds who finally have peace and freedom after decades of abusive near-genocidal policy from both Hussein and the Turks. \_ The Iranians are clearly the regional winners, because one of their enemies, one that had fought two wars with them and had blocked their expansiion, is now eliminated. The Iraq War has clearly shifted regional power to the Iranian/Shi'ite block, which is agreed upon by most foreign analysts. Many of predicted that analysts. Many of us predicted that this would be the outcome of the US lead invasion of Iraq, so it's not led invasion of Iraq, so it's not like we didn't try to warn you... \_ Unsealed complaint against Mohammed Ibrahim Shnewer containing details of the arrest: http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~erikred/01_07_mj_02045_JS.pdf |
2007/5/8-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46561 Activity:nil |
5/8 new War Nerd: http://www.exile.ru/2007-May-04/war_nerd.html "So the likely winner of a war like this is an up-n-coming world economic power that has been investing in its own economy while we blow a trillion - yep, a trillion - dollars on nothing. Not hard to figure out who the likely suspects are here. China understands that an army is most effective when kept penned in and on parade, rather than riding around a hostile, far-away country. The answer to "Who won Iraq?" is Iran in the short run, and in the long run, China and India." \_ Actually China's army/military doesn't sit around doing nothing. They spend a lot of time stomping on rioters across the country, mostly peasants in rural areas upset at being treated like peasants. Old joke: The Soviets and Chinese go to war. On the first day the Russians capture 100 million Chinese. On the second day they capture another 100 million Chinese. On the third day the Chinese rally and the Russians only capture 50 million Chinese. On the fourth day the Russians counter attack with great success and capture 250 million Chinese. On the fifth day the Russians surrender. \_ Yeah and India does a lot of foot stomping on the Kashmir border. I do think we've thrown over a trillion into a giant rathole. I don't understand how the Bush administration avoids being hounded from power by armed pitchfork bearing mobs. \_ rent Idiocracy \_ I am not sure which part of it is supposed to be funny.. \_ It's a joke, son. \_ "During the Damansky Island incident the Chinese military developed three main strategies: The Great Offensive, The Small Retreat, and Infiltration by Small Groups of One to Two Million Across the Border." \_ What was the futuristic war book (could be by Dean Ng?) that had the Wall of Lenin? Also, brings to mind the line about "1 billion Chinamen" in Red Dawn... -John \_ Note also that the PLA spends a lot of time putting down insurgents in the Uighur-populated Northwest. |
2007/5/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46520 Activity:nil |
5/3 After six years of "you are either with us or you are with the terrorists" the Bush Administration discovers diplomacy. Better late than never, I suppose: http://www.csua.org/u/ilp |
2007/5/1-4 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46496 Activity:nil |
5/1 Mission Accomplished! \_ The war in Iraq was always about getting rid of Castro! |
2007/4/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46445 Activity:kinda low |
4/24 How Nigerian scammers provided the "proof" Bush needed to justify the war he wanted so badly: http://www.csua.org/u/ik0 \_ Like the lawyer said at the end of Robocop 2: "Don't worry Sir, I'll find the proof, whether it exists or not" \_ this is the part I don't understand. Democrat could of just cut the funding and blame Bush for *EVERYTHING* But I don't see they are doing that right now. \_ It's politics. The democrats are walking a fine line between the far left anti-war folks who put them in power last fall and the reality of knowing that if we bailed on Iraq right now or any time soon, the current situation will look like a trip to disneyland. And they'll get blamed for not 'staying the course'. What's going on now is a low to low-moderate scale 'event' where you have a few thousand folks planting bombs or doing hit n run attacks with mortars or sometimes a suicide attack. They are not doing enough to topple the US propped government which slowly grows stronger each day, but no one is doing that much to really stop them. 'Stay the course' will eventually result in a stable (for the region) mostly democratic government but only while we're there. It will be a very weak government for many years. Leaving will be an anarchic bloodbath. Cutting funds will lead directly to that bloodbath and the dems don't want to get blamed for that. \_ the "far left anti-war folks" AKA 60-70% of Americans \_ Most Americans could care less what happens in Iraq, as long as no more taxpayers dollars are spent there. |
2007/4/24-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46439 Activity:moderate |
4/24 http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1614000,00.html Iraqi Oil: More Plentiful Than Thought, 215 billion barrels, or double only second to Saudi Arabia, and more than Iran at 136 billion barrels of oil. So much for oil shortage. Time to fulfill your American dream by buying that big house 45 miles away from the city and the SUV you've always dreamed of having! \_ We pumped up 10% of all the oil consumed since the dawn of the age of oil during the first Bush term. During the second Bush term, we will pump up 10% of all known reserves. \_ I suppose you know what the core of the earth is made of too? Or are you citing unnamed sources, or you 'just know'? \_ Do we really want to put more money in the hands of muslims? Let's break the oil habit already, fer chrissake. \_ I just laughed when US was lecturing China about how China shouldn't be dealing with Nigeria and Sudan. \_ Every President from Nixon on has said this. And during the Presidency of every President since Nixon we've gotten more dependent on imports. Actually doing something about it will mean the kind of sacrifices by the American people that will get any politician who actually tries to implement them carried out of town on a rail. So instead the system will collapse and we will elect a constant stream of more and more maniacal tyrants who promise to fix the energy problems. \_ C'mon, a "maniacal tyrant" persuaded us into a war with Iraq, a country which never harmed us. Granted, he did that by lying to us. How hard could it be to persuade us to provide incentives, implemented on a gradual basis, toward moving us to oil-independence? Everyone knows oil is running out. Just look at gas prices. Everyone knows that we're headed for a collapse. I doubt a politician who says, "it's time to prepare for the inevitable--this new gasoline tax will provide incentive to moving to renewable transport fuels. And BTW, to reduce the impact on the poor, we're reducing the income tax, so you shouldn't be paying any more overall." \_ Poor people don't pay income tax. Reduce the payroll tax instead. \_ I read that only 33% of adults pay income tax now. That is scary for those of us who are paying into the system. \_ Where did you read this? I am skeptical. \_ That seems hard to believe. The majority of Americans do pay more in payroll tax than in income tax, however, a fact usually conveniently left out by people who advocate income tax taxcuts. \_ I didn't say 'payroll tax'. However, that just covers entitlements. I read it in that rag called the Wall Street Journal. The article is called "The Taxpaying Minority". http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14434 It says something like 40% of taxpayers pay 92% of the taxes. 33% pay none at all and the rest pay so little as to be almost nothing. \_ First you say that only 33% pay payroll tax, now you say that 33% pay none at all. Which one is it??? \_ Huh? \_ "I read that only 33% of adults pay income tax now." "33% pay none at all..." Which one is it? You do understand that these do statements do not say the same thing, right? \_ First one was from memory. Second from the article. Just read it and see. The gist the article makes, from what I remember, is that some people pay more than "none at all" but it is so small as to be almost nothing. \_ Thanks for clarifying. The poor pay a disproportionate amount of sales, gasoline and use taxes as a percentage of income, so only talking about "income" tax is a misapprehension. Actually, when the WSJ does it, it is a deliberate attempt to distort the truth. \_ Sure, they do pay more in proportion, but (except for gasoline) those are state taxes. \_ Ok, 33% pay none at all-- does that include children, old people, and disabled? \_ Obviously. \_ If you look at all taxes we have basically a flat tax, with each quintile paying almost the same percent of their income in taxes. However, since the very top has so much more income than everyone else it makes sense they are paying most of the taxes. That doesn't show the top is being taxed unfairly, it shows that the bottom is getting screwed. \_ I never said it was unfair. I am just saying that the tax base is eroding. \_ As the gap widens between the top tier and the rest of us also-rans, it would be more accurate to say that a smaller number of people are continuing to pay enormous (yet still not necessarily unfair) amounts into the tax base. It's so much eroding as it is becoming proportionately uber-relevant. -!pp |
2007/4/24-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46432 Activity:low |
4/24 http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/23/iraq.main/index.html Diyala province, truck bombs (two 30-ton dump trucks) kill 9 U.S. soldiers at small patrol base, five hospitalized. (IIRC, the last major non-mortar attack that penetrated a U.S. base was the cafeteria one.) God forbid we see more of these. \_ While it sounds bad, it may be a shift in tactic by the resistance from sectarian killings to US military. *IF* there is a big drop in sectarian killings in Bagdad during this time, this may actually meant the "surge" is "working" in the sense that it stopped the secartian killings. Of course, if the data shows that secartian killing has no significance in reduction, then, all these means that the resistence is getting stronger and bolder. \_ Or it just means that fighting an insurgency is a long dirty ugly battle with few easy clear cut victories. Looking at any one single day and saying "it means this" or "it means that" in either direction is just guessing. |
2007/4/21-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46400 Activity:nil |
4/20 2003 - Mission Accomplished 2004 - We Have Turned A Corner 2005 - Insurgency In Its Last Throes 2006 - Leaving Iraq Now Would Be A Disaster 2007 - The Direction Of The Fight Is Beginning To Shift 2008 - ??? \_ 2008 - Halliburton profit down 48%. CEO resigns. \_ Don't bet on that one. 2009 - The war was lost under the a Democrat administration! |
2007/4/18-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46357 Activity:nil |
4/18 Support our troops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cAChVVVZaM \_ I thought it was one of those busty-wife-flashing-boobs-for-husband- in-Iraq video. in-Iraq video. Too bad. |
2007/4/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46321 Activity:nil |
4/16 Pelosi at 53% approval. By way of comparison, Gingrinch maxed out at 41%. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_041607.html \_ Polls re: people we don't vote for: yawn. |
2007/4/12-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46284 Activity:nil |
4/12 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html "a policeman opening the passenger door of the truck, seeing a mass of wires and batteries, and running away. Ten minutes later the bomb exploded, so powerfully that it killed six people some distance away, sent several cars careening into the river and destroyed 65 percent to 75 percent of the steel structure." \_ That policeman should be put in jail. \_ Was he on the bomb squad? If not, probably not. |
2007/4/11-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46257 Activity:nil |
4/11 Nobody wants to be the Czar: http://www.csua.org/u/ifz \_ that's weird, I thought all these neo-Cons would flock to the position by now. \_ Maybe they'd have better luck if they changed the title to Warlord. \_ I do. How much does it pay? Can I telecommute? \_ Everyone else has been phoning it in, so why not? \- The press and public should just start referring to CHENEY as the WAR CZAR.. |
2007/4/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46231 Activity:high |
4/7 "These people can't even wrap up genocide. We've been hearing about this slaughter in Darfur forever - and they still haven't finished. The aggressors are moving like termites across that country. It's like genocide by committee. Who's running this holocaust in Darfur, FEMA?" --Ann Coulter http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/printer_friendly.cgi?article=177 \_ If you pay attention to Ann Coulter, you lose. \_ She's obnoxious but the people getting slaughtered in Darfur wouldn't tell you they'd prefer to be completely ignored instead of having AC as their advocate. The last I checked several months ago, the UN committee on subcommittees on human rights violations and definitions was still was working on arranging a time to meet at some time in the far future to discuss the possibility of defining 'genocide'. After deciding what a genocide *is* they would then setup other meetings in the future to decide if Darfur met that standard. And *then* they would have to arrange a meeting later to decide if they should pass a note higher up the committee chain on whether or not to recommend what, if anything, the main body of the UN should say in a nasty note. I'm not kidding. Darfur: a real genocide taking place every day right now and no one but AC and her ilk gives a shit. How sad is that? I didn't read the link (I don't read AC) but to say we should ignore Darfur because AC is bringing it up is sickening. \_ An impressive strawman. -tom \_ If you read AC's drivel, you would realize how foolish you are. She is hardly their advocate. \_ I said I don't read her. Fine, she's not their advocate. So that leaves no one as their advocate which still doesn't seem to bother anyone and is still sickening. \_ not totally sure what you are talking about. I see editorials and news reports about what is happening in Darfur in Time, NY Times, now and then in the Chronicle, mostly in the NY Times. \_ Anne Coulter "cares" about Darfur because it allows her to put down the UN. It's like SNL skit where Christopher Walken played the French embassador during the beginning of the Iraq war where he said "We aren't pro-Iraq, we're just anti-American" \_ So you don't like her motives. That's fine. So who *is* speaking out about Darfur who has motives you like? And why does it matter *why* she's talking about it so long as it is talked about and not forgotten? And hey, wouldn't it be nice if someone actually, well, ya know... *did* something about it? |
2007/4/6-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:46221 Activity:high |
4/6 Lebanese minster thanks Pelosi for her visit to Syria: "Her visit was a godsend to an isolated and beleaguered regime," says a Lebanese minister. "The Syrian regime, which had been thinking of bowing to international pressure, is now reassured: All it has to do is to wait until Pelosi's party takes over the White House in 2009." http://csua.org/u/ien \_ YA!!! now they can openly support terrorism in 2009!! \_ Yeah, that unsourced quote in a NY Post op-ed piece doesn't sound the least bit made up to me. \_ Now wait a second. Are you accusing the Post of fabricating a quote from a Lebanese minster? \_ If pp's not, I am. -!pp \_ "...the region's current trend toward reform and liberalization would largely come to a halt." Typical delusional neocon fantasizing. Does he mean the election of Hamas, the civil war in Iraq, the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan or Iran's recent advances toward nuclear weapons and more belligerent attitude toward The West? Perhaps he means Mubarak's cancelling of elections and outlawing of opposition parties in Egypt. The author should just put on a flight suit and declare "Mission Accomplished!" \_ You forgot Lebanon's missile attacks on Isreal, and Isreal's subsequent invasion. -tom \_ Just an FYI, Iran has not stopped working on their nuke program since it started ~20 years ago, nor has their attitude changed in the least since 1979. The Taliban also dates back for about 20 years also. Mubarak has always been a thug but "he's *our* thug!" so it's ok. And in additon to what tom added, you also forgot Intifada I and II which was the first time anyone strapped a bomb onto a child. At no time *ever* in recorded history has the middle east ever been civilised or any less basket-casey than it is today. \_ Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Kamikaze in WWII. The Middle East was quite stable under Ottoman Empire rule. \_ Are you suggesting that the Japanese strapped bombs onto children and used them as kamikaze pilots? 'Cos I just want to be clear on this before I call you an idiot. \- re: "first time anyone ever strapped a bomb on to a child" ... that's not correct. in the vietnam war, is is supposed to have happened. also comparable things happened like standing children in the middle of roads so convoys/trucks would stop and could be attacked [first they tried it with cattle, but later "escalated" to people]. i dont recall if this has happened in the sri lankan conflict ... certainly teenagers were involved, not sure about young children. has it not occurred to you instead of taking this only as a lesson about "what kinds of degenerates are these" that the take away might be "things are pretty fucked up for people who'd resort to this kind of thing." \_ There are documented cases of 16 year old Kamikaze pilots. Sorry reality is such a bummer to you. \_ Congratulations: you're half right, so you're only half an idiot. \_ Uh oh, you found other times where kids were strapped to bombs and pointed. Yeah, that makes it ok in the middle east, too. Ok, thanks for the correction. I'll mentally remove that from my list of middle east insanity. Glad you found the trees. Seen the forest yet? |
2007/4/6-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46219 Activity:nil |
4/6 Cheney still prattling on about Al Qaida and Saddam http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002961.php \_ Why do you hate America? |
2007/3/28-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46126 Activity:nil |
3/27 Majority of Iraqis say life better under Saddam Hussein: http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8881663 |
2007/3/28-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46125 Activity:nil |
3/27 http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/03/27/iraq.torturesuit/index.html BAHAHAHA you Liburals lost! \_ "Despite the horrifying torture allegations," wrote U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan in a 58-page opinion, "the plaintiffs lack standing to pursue a declaratory judgment against the defendants." 2/10 on the troll scale. As a layman it's clear that this case was brought to make a statement, and would be thrown out for lack of standing. I assure you the lawyers for the plaintiffs were well aware of this. And 'liburals', seriously, are you twelve? -dans |
2007/3/28-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46121 Activity:nil |
3/27 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17819626/site/newsweek Over 800 unpatriotic soldiers deserted the army in 2006. \_ Our "volunteers" are being turned into conscripts. "OK, you've served your time and several tours in Iraq. You can go home now.... Oh, WAIT! We still need you. You have to continue serving indefinitely." |
2007/3/27-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46108 Activity:high |
3/26 War Nerd reviews 300 and Victor Hansen http://www.exile.ru/2007-March-23/war_nerd.html \_ Spot on, thanks for this. \- one point about this: yeah, athens should be given their due in the case of the persian wars, but if you are going to talk about contemporary lessons, the pel war is much more relevant. and there the lesson is: eventhough the "athenian way of life" was far more appealing than the spartan, athenian high handedness and power was a greater threat to many of their neighbors. nobody is inspired by north korea, but NK doesnt affect say how their govt wants to spend their tax dollars [anti-drug measures, ip enforcement etc]. the pel war ushers in "the fall of the athenian empire". Let's hope Iraq is not America's "Sicily" ... "the athenians responded first in anger and then in fear. first they lashed out at th politcians who had proposed and argued for the Sicilian expeditions (Thycydides bitterly remarks, "as if they had not voted for it by themselves"); the were furious with the seers who had predicted success. Next, they grieved over men lost in Sicily. Finally, they feared for their own safety when they calculated their own losses and te enemy's gains ... Athens' allies ... would not surely rebel ... they exaggerated the enemy's capacity to take effective action, but they had good reason for concern over the condition of Athens and its ability to carry on the war. The most obvious problem was manpower ..." --Donald Kagan, via psb \- one point about this: yeah, athens should be given their due in the case of the persian wars, but if you are going to talk about contemporary lessons, the pel war is much more relevant. and there the lesson is: eventhough the "athenian way of life" was far more appealing than the spartan, athenian high handedness and power was a greater threat to many of their neighbors. nobody is inspired by north korea, but NK doesnt affect say how their govt wants to spend their tax dollars [anti-drug measures, ip enforcement, susidies etc]. the pel war ushers in "the fall of the athenian empire". Let's hope Iraq is not America's "Sicily" ... "the Athenians responded first in anger and then in fear. first they lashed out at th politcians who had proposed and argued for the Sicilian expeditions (Thycydides bitterly remarks, "as if they had not voted for it by themselves"); the were furious with the seers who had predicted success. Next, they grieved over men lost in Sicily. Finally, they feared for their own safety when they calculated their own losses and te enemy's gains ... Athens' allies ... would now surely rebel ... they exaggerated the enemy's capacity to take effective action, but they had good reason for concern over the condition of Athens and its ability to carry on the war. The most obvious problem was manpower ..." --Donald Kagan, via psb [see http://www.amazon.com/dp/0801499844] \_ So you think that if the US decides to pull out from Iraq and the country falls to chaos, our allies (UK, Israel, Canada, Germany, etc) are going to turn on us and attack? What? \_ We have already lost some of our Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey allies, but we are likely to lose more. \_ Which allies? And have they turned on us a la Athens and are now gearing up to attack us? \_ France, Turkey, Egypt, to a lesser extent the EU and Saudi Arabia. No, they are probably not gearing up to attack us, but they will co-operate less with us in the future and are already lining up alliances with our rivals. So we are definitely in a weaker position geopolitically. I am surprised that this is news to you. \_ France: independent at best. The ultimate self- interested nation. (I've no problem with that, it is just how they are). Egypt: An ally? Are you nuts? We pay them a few billion a year to not attack Israel. They're a cold war era 'our bastards are better than their bastards' dictatorship who has a piss poor record of supporting the US at the UN (for example). Turkey: a matter of self-interest. They have Kurdish terrorists/freedom-fighters who want to break away and a free Kurdistan in northern Iraq is the last thing they want to see. Are they kicking us out of the country? Are they asking us to do anything in particular? What exactly is Turkey doing that gives you the willies? If these are the 'allies' we're losing due to American foreign policy (and I disagree they were allies in the first place or that the relationships have changed *at all* then we have ***nothing*** to worry about in the "oh n0es~! our allies are turning on us!!11" sense. I'm surprised you see these nations as 'allies'. They are on-again off-again self-interested parties, like all nations. They semi-rationally determine what is in the best interests of their leaders, (not necessarily their nations) and do whatever that is until such time as some other greater self-interest emerges. \_ I haven't even seen this movie, but I'm not sure I believe it was made by neo-cons. Was it financed by Cheny or something? \_ Does it say it was made by neocons? I think the author was saying neo-cons point to the movie and cheer about how the movie shows the good, fascist, strong, 'democratic?' disciplined Spartans (american proxies) triumph over the unwashed ninja move boy-loving hordes. I can easily \_ There was no Persian boy-loving going on in the movie. believe the not so bright will see this movie and think it represents Greek history accurately, and that you can derive some sort of parallel between the Greeks then and the American War On Terror. Victor Hansen has written many nationally printed columns about how wonderful 300 is, which is pretty amusing since Hansen is a classics professor and should know this period of history very well. \_ It's a movie made from a friggin' comic book! It has nothing to do with anything. It is entertainment. The entire world is not some sort of allegory for Iraq or US Hegemony or any such thing. C-O-M-I-C B-O-O-K!!! sheesh. \_ From the rant "The only reason this thing got made is that it makes good anti-Iran propaganda..." makes good anti-Iran propaganda...[big cut]...Now the neocons have gone so over the deep end of delusional thinking that they've resorted to fantasizing about Sparta...These diehard neocons have gone insane because there's no way they can argue for an invasion of Iran any more." He seems pretty sure that this is some neocon conspiracy. I agree with the above guy, it's just a comic book movie, war nerd should get over it. Besides, there are probably far more people who believe in Michael Moore's fantasy documentaries. |
2007/3/26-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46101 Activity:low |
3/26 This is a good read, though it's a long article, how the US has no plans to 'rescue' our Iraqi allies when we eventually leave Iraq: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/26/070326fa_fact_packer?printable=true \_ Isn't the idea that we leave when they are ready to fully control their own country so they don't need rescue? \_ Right. I am opposed to the war, always have been, but I completely agree with you. I really don't think there is any way the 3 factions in Iraq will stop bombing each other while we are occupying Iraq. Maybe they'll keep bombing each other when we're gone, who knows, but we're not helping. One of the interesting points of the above article is that the Iraqis who work with us are not well treated by the US, are considered traitors by other Iraqis, and will be killed when we leave (and they're getting killed right now). The Bush administration has no plans to evacuate them eventually because that would be admitting that they made a mistake. I'm also available to start making analogies to the Vietnam and Korean war if you wish. Too bad there is not some all powerful figure left like Mao to tell people what to do. \_ Other Bush admin ideas: it will be a cakewalk, the war will last maybe 6 months, the war will pay for itself, the war will cost MAYBE $60 billion, imminent threat, WMDs, mushroom clouds, we will be welcomed as liberators ... did I miss any? \_ Which has nothing to do with this thread. If you'd like to stay on topic, feel free. |
2007/3/26-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46100 Activity:nil |
3/26 Lots of people I love to hate on here: http://www.radaronline.com/features/2007/01/betting_on_iraq_1.php \_ Amusing, story, but I find it hard to characterize Thomas Friedman as pro-Iraq war. -dans \_ Erm, how exactly would you characterize him if not "pro-war"? He's the preeminent "give it six more months"er. \_ You don't think so? I remember the whole 'invading Iraq will be a grand roll of the dice! Good show!' column. \_ Yeah, I remember that column two, but didn't exactly read it as a ringing endorsement of going to war. Could be that I'm not weighting that column as much as the rest of his oeuvre. -dans \_ Revisionist \_ Who me? How about entitled to my fucking opinion. You're welcome to have your own. If you want to peg something as revisionist, how about the original article, which states that, "Because conservative pundits generally acted as a well-coordinated bloc, more or less interchangeable, all four of our hawks are moderates or liberals who might have been important opponents of the war..." So, in effect, the conservative pundits were all pro-war and all wrong, but they don't deserve to be taken to task for their opinions because they were wrong together! Awesome! -dans \_ Thou dost protest too much \_ #t -dans \_ it depends on what the meaning of "pro" is (you two obviously have different meanings) \_ Don't hate the playa, hate the game. |
2007/3/25-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:46088 Activity:kinda low |
3/25 http://www.csua.org/u/ib9 Iran says they have signed confessions from the Brit soldiers to "to aggression into the Islamic Republic of Iran's waters" and that they'll trade them for Iranian spies captured in Iraq. Will this be an Archduke Ferdinand moment? \_ This situation is beyond crazy. Has anyone seen analysis that clearly shows whose territorial waters these sailors were caught in? \_ No, Bush would clearly love to "double down" in Iran, but his hands are tied now. Two years ago, this would have meant war. \_ These are british soldiers, not americans. \_ And? \_ And? \_ British->NATO->US, says Bush. \_ Who exactly is "Iran" and what did they say? \_ Wonder how the Brits'll react? Freeze Iranian funds? The Iranians are pretty clearly in the wrong. \_ how about grabbing an iranian vessell from iranian waters, taking the crew prisoner, and claiming they are all spies with signed confessions. \_ Are you sure that the Brits were not in Iranian waters? All I have seen are "he said - she saids" claims. I assume the Brits \_ Are you sure that the Brits were not in Iranian waters? All I have seen are "he said - she said" claims. I assume the Brits will escalate until the Iranians back down. We shall see. \_ There is concensus. They were in Iraqi waters. \_ 3/27 Update: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070327/wl_nm/iran_dc "Blair's spokesman said the next step London could take would be to publish proof, in the form of global satellite positioning (GPS) records, that the sailors had not entered Iranian waters." But of course Iran could claim that the GPS records are fake. BTW, if Margaret Thatcher were still the PM, the Brits would be planning to nuke Iran by now. \_ At least sending the fleet in that direction, but Briton doesn't have much of a fleet anymore. |
2007/3/24-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46086 Activity:low |
3/24 Whoa: http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2007/03/donald_knuth_wr.html http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/rice.html \_ Wow I can't believe an intellectual would write something like that. In fact he sounds just like my grandpa. It's obvious that the old fart's getting older and angrier. I guess everyone becomes like when they get old. \_ What is wrong with his letter? It is direct, accurate and to the point. Not elequent enough for a Lit prof to be sure to the point. Not eloquent enough for a Lit prof to be sure but we are talking a CS professor. I give him a solid A. |
2007/3/23-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46063 Activity:nil |
3/23 "Iran nabs British sailors in Iraq waters" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070323/ap_on_re_eu/british_troops_iran War against Iran is coming. \_ War is coming because Iran just committed an act of war? |
2007/3/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46007 Activity:high |
3/18 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530762.ece MOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today. Only 27% think there is a civil war in Iraq, compared with 61% who do not, according to the survey carried out last month. \_ 49% is not a majority, no matter how hard you warmongers spin it: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530526.ece Find those WMD yet? \_ The same article says majority (in fact says 2-1) and also says 49%. Bad writing or bad numbers? -op \_ Bad writing. They're adding together the 49% who say it's better now with the 16% who say they're equal. -tom \_ No, it is not bad writing, it is called "lying with statistics." \_ Funny, the poll done by a non-biased set of news agencies pants the exact opposite picture: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070319/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_poll_2 |
2007/3/13-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45953 Activity:moderate |
3/13 Victor Hanson loves '300', unsurprisingly: http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson101106.html I still don't think the Spartans were that 'free', perhaps driven, disciplined, manly, into men, very manly manly manly, but 'free'? nah. \_ I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and still agree with you. It was a Spartan tale told by a Spartan to Spartans. \_ Yeah I find the movie fun on a gruesome, fun, manly men doing manly things level. People who read deep political themes into the movie make me sad. \_ Gayest. Movie. Ever. \- on a contemporary note, worth reading the "putatively about the Persians, but not really" play "The Persians" [n.b. the wikipedia article about this play is not good]. but once again, for a really amazing work of politcs and history, with great bearing on contemporary events, rush forward to events 150yrs laterm and read Thucydides "great work for all time", History of the Peloponnesian War. The story of the "fall of Athens" is interesting ... how do the "enlightened" athenians alienate their neighbors and allies when their enemies are led by a bunch of freakish, fascist. Hmm, it's almost like "what does the US have to for there to be any competition in a paropaganda war with a bunch of crazies who behead people on tv". \_ It's more complicated than that and pre-dates the Bush admin by a few decades or more. If you'd like to discuss we can start a new thread starting with European colonial activity in the Middle East and India/Pakistan/Afghanistan over the last few hundred years, the decline of European powers as world powers post WWII/during the Cold War, the West's greatly increasing need for energy out-pacing supply growth and the recategorization of terrorists as freedom fighters in various places over time. Then again, nevermind, even the cliff notes of the cliff notes are too long for the motd. \- your comments dont make any sense as a response or reaction to mine. or really on their own. i was making \_ I was responding to your last sentence or two. a specific narrow point: athens, the enlightened side in the "judgement of history", were in some sense the bad guys because of the "arrogance of power" ... [do you know what happened "after" the pel war?] john dryden wrote: "When the chosen people grew too strong "The rightful cause at length became the wrong. At least in the case of the trojan war, there were good an bad guys on both sides. while in the case of the pel war, the leaders of the other side, the spartans, was kind of a freakish society. today, none of these people who say thinks like "the us is the greatest threat to world peace" actually are pro-north korea or the the islamic fundamentalists, but the they are more likely to be affected by us actions ... not belgian style harsh colonialism, but control of the free trade agenda, framing the debate on many other issue etc. and dramatic events like abu graib have accelerated \_ I don't think abu graib was dramatic. I think it was overly hyped to be much more dramatic than it was and was used as a proxy for the secret prisons the more hard core sorts are taken to but no one has real information about but which may (or may not) have 'dramatic events' taking place inside. this and have eroded some of the good will from us work in the green revolution, medical science etc. yes, the selective choice of labels such as who is a freedom fighter and a terrorist, who are friendly and unaccetable dictators, who can have nukes etc is an example of this agenda control. \_ That sort of agenda control goes both ways. If you look at the EU press and what a number of their politicos are saying you'd think Hamas was an oppressed movement of farmers having their figs stolen in the night while Hezbollah were a bunch of pacifist nuns doing the good works of The Peoples, while the US and allies are world wide villains and the worst sort of evil imaginable. It's naively laughable stuff but plenty believe it. This change in perception is relatively new dating back to only the early 90s. Prior to that groups like the PLO were always described as terrorist organizations. The PLO hasn't changed. Only the names. Overall, though, I agree with what you're saying. There's just so much more to it and really the motd isn't a great place for a discussion that would do the topic justice. \- BTW, by agenda control i dont mean (just) how you spin things [the freedom fighter vs terroist issue]. i mean literally agenda control at meetings for say the doha trade round ... "the most important trade problem today is software and dvd piracy and the pro- death forces who want to remove longer terms for medical patents and micky mouse copyright". \_ Ah, I see. I'll buy that. No one likes when someone bigger pushes their agenda. And that's \- not to mention double standards. \_ That's the whole point of being bigger. When you are that much more powerful, the negotiations are not among equals but more about how much the little guy is _allowed_ to have. It is the nature of power, especially in international affairs. No one likes being the little guy and doubly so if they were once the big time colonial power who owned and stripped a large chunk of the planet at the tip of a sword or rifle barrel. \- yes, i have read the melian dialog too. and i also know what happened to athens in the coming decades. some of the countries being dealt with high-handedly are not "little guys", e.g. china. they us expendiently switches between "we're right because we are good" and "might makes right". so start getting ready for more "fuck yous" from the international community. it will be interesting to see how the us deals with negotiations about cost bearing on global warming, how they react to things like china setting up bilateral deal rather than the "unversalist" approach of GATT/WTO etc. \_ I wasn't really going for the melian dialogs but they did have a point. As far as the non-little guys go, if they get big enough, such as the USSR during the cold war, you just get bi-lateral talks among equals, as expected. If they are small, then the US is back to melian style dialog, as expected. There's no such thing as a unified international community. There are nations that have shared goals, but no further than that. It is always possible to pick off member states of a larger coalition, setting up favorable side deals, etc. I see no problem. At worst, as I said, you deal with other large entities with the respect they've earned as equals or nearly so. What is so horrible about that? Are you predicting some sort of Great Down Fall of the Evil US when we have to deal with others as equals? US power is relatively new to the planet. Pre-WW2 the US was a joke on the world stage. We didn't have a military of any note, any serious industrial capacity, or much of anything else going on. What we did have was a whole lot of potential which was seen in WW2 to today. The Mickey Mouse Copyright Act to you, pal! We're now at what? 75 years after the death of the author? 100? How long ago did Walt die? \_ Geez, he died in 12/1966: 40 years. \_ "The Persians bring with them exotic beasts like a rhinoceros and elephant, and the leader of the Immortals fights Leonidas in a duel (which the Greeks knew as monomachia)." No, he doesn't. Was Hanson actually paying attention? \- in a bit of a coincidence, professor delong has blurb on the peloponnesian war (where the melian dialog comes from): http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2007/03/history_as_trag.html the parts quoting thucydides are worth readings [remind you of anything? ... bushco, darth cheney, john kerry], the stuff on kagan is probably not so interesting if you are not familar with him or his 4vol "standard" work on the pel war, it's leadup and aftermath. kagan is kinda crazy .. he's an ultra rightwinger at yale and was considered sort of a hazard and loose canon ... who had to be removed form various committees etc. harvard:harvey mansfield::yale:donald kagan. if you are interested in international politics, thucydides is well-worth reading. inspite of being 2400 yrs old ... before nukes, before even nation states, before global reach of nations ... but still many deep lessons about might and right, bandwagoning vs balancing [if you are a minor power, do you ally with #1 or #2], alliance management, preventative war, relative vs absolute gains, balance of threat theory, the importance of individuals vs "historical forces", fog of war, hawks and doves and domestic politics, ideology and the enemy law in war ... and the writing is amazing [thuycidides is supposed ot be one of the absolute hardest to read in the original tho ... very difficult greek ... it's even "greek" to a lot of people who know some greek.] it's also an amazing story at just a plot level ... the tide keeps turning as things go wrong, leaders die at the wrong time etc. \_ new post about kagan: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2007/03/your_onestopsho.html |
2007/3/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45940 Activity:nil |
3/12 Cheney secretly converted to Shiite Islam decades ago. It's the only explanation for his efforts to destabilize Iraq. When Iraq collapses Iran will dominate it politically, economically, and militarily. \_ The Tehranian Candidate! \_ God bless the Holy Dick. |
2007/3/7-10 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45896 Activity:nil |
3/7 RIP Captain America http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/503132p-424376c.html \_ This is part of Marvel's stupendously boring and stupid series 'Civil War'. Comic book fans will react by making even more fun of Civil War. It's stupid. Marvel comics suck. Sometimes the occasionaly actual good movie gets made from a Marvel comic book, like Spiderman and The Punisher. \_ The Punisher? Which version? \_ Actually the current Brubaker run on Daredevl is excellent. I haven't read Bendis' run that preceded it, but I heard it's also good, and I dig Powers so I'll probably give it a look. -dans |
2007/3/5-7 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45884 Activity:nil |
3/5 Saudi oil production drops 8% in 2006 http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2325 |
2007/3/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45876 Activity:kinda low |
3/5 Lancet Article re 650K Iraqi deaths may be inaccurate: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1469636.ece \_ Still waiting for someone else to do an actual scientific study that indicates otherwise. So far, all we have seen are politically based claims that the numbers "just can't be." \_ So, I can make any claim I want, and I don't have to prove it, nor show how my methods work, and I can be in contradiction to other established authorities, but my claim has to be refuted by an actual scientific study rather than just dismissed? Would you put your faith in my new revolutionary diamond manufacturing plant and invest in it without some kind of proof? Why're you so eager to believe in this guy? [reformatted - formatd] \_ Making any claim they want and not having to prove it works for Intelligent Design and Global Warming. \_ Are you claiming, yet again, that the Lancet study "didn't show their work"? Or did you misparse the previous poster, and are also speaking against J. Random Economist's claims about the Lancet's study? \_ Your claims are false. The study was peer reviewed by a respected medical editorial board, probably the most respected editorial board in medicine. The critics have been anonymous cranks (like yourself) and politically motivated bloggers with no knowledge of how the scientific process works. It is revealing who you side with. Granted, Dr. Spagat is an expert and he disputes some of the techniques used. This sort of thing is how good science is done. One disagreement by a stastician does not invalidate the whole study. The Lancet study is actually one of the most carefully reviewed studies in the history of medicine. So yes, until there is some hard science disputing their findings, I am going to continue to be skeptical of politically motivated critics. Why are you so determined to dispute their findings? so determined to dispute their findings? -!dans \_ My issue with the 650k is that it is the top end number and gets quoted as a factual known-good this-is-it number. The original paper published a range of X to Y but we only hear Y. The truth is likely in the middle. IIRC the earlier study they did was ~8000 bottom end to 100k top end and we heard only the 100k. Yet official number at the time were already higher than their bottom end number. So how can the high end number be any more trust worthy? The truth is much more likely much lower than the oft quoted 650k. This is not to say 200k or whatever deaths are good, but it makes me question the motives of anyone quoting the 650k as fact and not merely the top end of a statistical range. --someone else \_ Saying "The HMM aggregate of the range from 650k to 300k" is too much for a news article. \_ You are misinformed. Go read the study and return. \_ The study estimates between 393K and 943K deaths. -tom \- just out of curioisity to the critics of the study: do you have any "guesses" about what you think the casualty numbers might be? also, say it is 2x to high ... and the number is say 300k, does that affect your thinking about how things have unfolded? obviously there is a difference between say 50k dealth in vietnam and <3.8k in iraq, but I'm not sure what the different policy consequences are between 300k and 650k. [in no way to make light of the very large difference in cost to iraqi people ... but again the social aftermath of ww2 was very diff in the us vs. russia, germany, france etc] \_ Actually, the original study had a 95% confidence interval from 8k to 192k IIRC, making 100k the center of the peak. -emarkp \_ I recall 8 to 100 but I'll go look it up. Thanks for the correction. |
2007/2/28 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45838 Activity:high |
2/28 Quick quiz: Which kills more Americans? A) Insurgents in Iraq attacking US soldiers B) Illegal Aliens in the US committing murder C) Wankers on the motd and other media sources creating overtly slanted, self-serving shill quizzes to make their points using dishonest and bad rhetorical techniques. http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=737771 \_ It depends on what your definition of "more" is. We've had this discussion before. You're very clearly an idiot. \_ Our laws governing automotive safety are as every bit as retarded as our foreign policy in the Middle East. Both need our attention and some solution. What makes Iraq particularly important is that it's putting an enormous strain on our resources (economically and militarily). \_ You're right, if we moved every single soldier from Iraq, Japan, Korea, Germany and Cuba to the Mexican border, we might stop all illegal immigration. Kill. \_ That wasn't something I was suggesting. Try again. -op \_ It's about a sensical as your quiz. -!pp \_ Or not. -op \_ Hey! Thanks to the asshole who chnaged my post. choice B) is supposed to be Illegal Aliens committing murder. \_ I like how when lefties here don't like facts, they hide them. |
2007/2/23-27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45810 Activity:nil |
2/23 UCD Law Review Symposium on 4th Amend. Search & Seizure law: http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8048 http://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/2007symposium \_ If anybody here has EBOLA, please go to this and lick JOHN YOO. |
2007/2/23 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45809 Activity:nil |
2/23 http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8048 |
2007/2/23 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45803 Activity:nil |
2/23 http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8048 Event Focuses on Surveillance, Wiretapping, Terrorism February 21, 2007 John Yoo -- who spearheaded the Bush administration's legal response to the 2001 terrorist attacks -- and other constitutional scholars will debate the National Security Agency's surveillance program, warrantless phone wiretapping and the war on terror at UC Davis March 9. The event, titled "Katz v. U.S: 40 Years Later -- From Warrantless Wiretaps to the War on Terror," will focus on how the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark "search and seizure" decision in Katz applies in a modern age of global terrorism. The UC Davis Law Review and the School of Law will host the free, public event. The program runs from 9 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. in the Wilkins Moot Court Room of King Hall on the UC Davis campus. "The issue of warrantless wiretaps and personal privacy has resurfaced from under the current NSA surveillance program," said David Richardson, editor-in-chief of the law review. "This symposium will allow some of the greatest legal minds in the country to discuss both sides of this controversy." Jennifer Chacon, a UC Davis professor of law and faculty adviser to the event, said, "Growing concerns over crime and terrorism in the United States have sparked a national conversation about the trade-offs between individual privacy and security." "Read against a modern backdrop," she added, "the case of Katz v. United States provides an ideal framework for discussing privacy expectations, effective law enforcement and anti-terrorism strategies." In Katz, the court ruled that the Fourth Amendment protects "people, not places" and provides protection of a "reasonable expectation of privacy," effectively curtailing the use of warrantless wiretaps by law enforcement agencies. John Yoo, now a UC Berkeley law professor, and Glenn Sulmasy of the U.S. Coast Guard Academy, will co-present a paper questioning the viability of Katz in the war on terror in a session at 2:45 p.m. Yoo served as a deputy assistant attorney general in the Office of Legal Counsel of the U.S. Department of Justice from 2001 to 2003. Sessions are as follows: "Katz in Context: Privacy, Policing Homosexuality and Enforcing Social Norms," 9:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m.; "Katz: Rights and Remedies," 12:45 p.m. to 2:30 p.m.; "Katz in the Age of International Crime and Terrorism," 2:45 p.m. to 4:15 p.m.; and closing remarks, 4:15 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. Celebrating its 40th anniversary, the law review ranks in the top 50 most cited legal periodicals in the United States. Each year it hosts a symposium on current legal topics. |
2007/2/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45774 Activity:nil |
2/19 " .a disastrous and unnecessary war.." http://tinyurl.com/2r8apw (The Week Magazine) |
2007/2/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45758 Activity:nil |
2/16 Iraq insurgency in 'last throes,' Cheney says http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/30/cheney.iraq |
2007/2/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45731 Activity:nil |
2/13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq8jlA7meHQ Hank Hill Speaks Up About Bush and the Iraq War |
2007/2/9-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:45697 Activity:low |
2/9 On August 2nd, the USS Maddox was attacked by three North Vietnamese P-4 patrol boats 28 miles away from the North Vietnamese coast in international waters... http://csua.org/u/i0x \_ Huh? \_ Excuse me, which tree-hugging hippie commune did fall out of? Iraq is not Vietnam. And North Vietnam is not Iran. \_ I think Iran is 100x worse than Vietnam. Our oil was not under Vietnam. Goddamn Bush! \_ Yeah, how stupid of him was it to put all our oil under Iran? Why didn't he put our oil under Texas or Alaska or something? \_ Because his Saudi oil masters wouldn't let him. "We are merely exchanging long protein strings. If you can think of a simpler way, I'd like to hear it." \_ Well that was stupid to put the oil under Saudi Arabia then, wasn't it? |
2007/2/5-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45659 Activity:kinda low |
2/5 Boredcast Message from 'psb': Sun Feb 4 17:16:42 2007 as brad delong might say: run over krauthhammer now: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTFhZGJiNWZjNzk2Zjg3N2YzODhmZDY0YWI3N2RiMmE= (btw, i didnt put this in the motd. although i do think krauthhammer is a human cockroach --psb) \_ Okay, I've read the article--don't see much of a problem. Any other opinions you recommend killing people over? \_ I think fuckwits who take things too literally should be forced to swallow drano. \- there is at least one sloda user who has consumed drano. (i am not kidding) \_ What about it? He's stuck on drawing artificial lines between groups, as if all Shia should be on the same side and give him a nice little easy to write article about the Sunni/Shia war with some nice sound bites thrown in about what other countries support which side. He's only an article writer. He doesn't actually know (or have to) know anything. \_ Should he be killed? \_ Of course not. He's just an opinion writer. He gets paid to write stuff other people will re-post elsewhere to increase hit counts and ad revenues. He is doing his job and harming no one. \_ Peddling hate hurts no one? Tell that to all the Iraqis dead by sectarian violence. \_ Please quote a few lines of "hate" with context. And generally, yes, even if he was a hate peddler, it hurts no one because he has no power or influence. \_ Many of us warned his ilk that civil war would be the inevitable outcome of breaking up the "strong center" in Iraq. The arrogant neocons ignored us, as they ignored most of the world's warnings. Now blood is on their hands and they want to deny responsibility for it. Bullshit. These guys are just as responsible for the upcoming deaths of millions as Stalin was for starving the Kulaks. \_ I believe the problem wasn't taking out Saddam but having no real post-Saddam plan. I became very concerned when the invasion part was over and they didn't declare martial law and mop up. I'm not sure what they did for those first few precious weeks but I think everything was lost right there. \_ Considering the very long history of Sunni-Shi'ite violence I don't think it would have mattered. Just maybe we could have replaced one strongman with another. In any case, hubris led to the neocons and those in power to not have a contingency plan. \_ The Sunni and Shia live in neighboring countries and as neighbors within countries all over the middle east without killing each other on a daily basis. There is no reason to believe that only a mass murderer like Hussein could keep that in check. Or actually, no, he didn't try, he was Sunni and was butching about 5,000 Sunni a month for decades. |
2007/1/30-2/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45614 Activity:nil |
1/29 This is wickedly fucked up (dead man's sperm to impregnate a woman he never met): http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/29/israel.deadmansperm.ap |
2007/1/7-16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45540 Activity:nil |
1/11 21,500 more troops, yay!!! Let's kill all the bad people! \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16576547 Pentagon wants 92,000 more. "Failure is not an option." \_ Where are they gonna got 92,000 more when recruitment is down? \_ hmm, I recall that we have roughly 20,000 casualties (3000 dead, rest of them wounded). If anything, this "surge" is nothing but replenishment for the casualties, no? \_ for once, I actually *AGREE* with Bush that we need a "surge." however, I really think we should use this "surge" in Afghanistan instead of Iraq. These 20k soldiers would probably made a big differences in Afghanistan. |
2007/1/7-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:45531 Activity:nil |
1/14 Guys, I am a bit nervous. I think we are going to attack Iran next... Well, in a way, we've already did. Last time I checked, embassy is considered as sovereign territory of a nation. As we have raided the Iranian embassy in Iraq, we are in effect attack Iran territory. http://www.payvand.com/news/07/jan/1131.html Under normal circumstances, this would considered as an act of war. On top of this, we are moving a carrier strike group to Persian Golf. http://csua.org/u/hvx I am no military expert, but my knowledge tells me that carrier strike group is not the best tool to fight insurgency in Iraq. \_ That wasn't an embassy. Although if it was an embassy that would just be karmic anyway. \_ I just think Bush's secret plan B is to escalate the war with Iran. \_ Bring it on! \_ Hey, you mean like we were supposed to have a military draft in 2006? \_ if we were doing things right, we supposed to have a draft in 2003, blanked Iraq with one million draftees, commit entire nation into this Iraqii mess. Then again, may be you still think the war is going well. I am still waiting to see that beacon of democracy in the middle east. 2003, blanked Iraq with one million draftees, commit entire nation into this Iraqii mess. Then again, may be you still think the war is going well. I am still waiting to see that beacon of democracy in the middle east. \_ There have been numerous connections between the Iraq insurgency and Syria & Iran (weapons, personnel, etc.). Stopping Iran from supplying weapons could very well help fighting the insurgents. \_ This is true. However, invading/waging war on Iran with the forces currently available to us is not likely to produce the result of "stopping Iran from supplying weapons" in the long run, unless we swallowed our pride and asked for help from Syria in pacifying Iraq. And hell, if we're going to go that route, why not just negotiate with Iran in the first place? |
2006/12/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45515 Activity:high |
12/29 I personally don't know anyone who supports Bush's War in Iraq. However according to the polls 35% of the Americans still do. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? What do they do? Where do they live? What are they like? \_ People like that exist everywhere. Emarkp is a fine example. Is your sample based in San Francisco or nearby academia? If so I wouldn't be surprised. \_ You /do/ realize the bias of polling people you know, right? -emarkp \_ The OP does not or wouldn't have posed the question. \_ 28% \_ consider how many people voted for Bush in 2004, why you are surprise? |
2006/12/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45514 Activity:very high |
12/29 R.I.H. Saddam Hussein \_ Hope GWB joins him soon. \_ YES! Death to all tyrants in the world! Now there will be peace ` \_ E_SICSEMPERTYRANNIS and harmony in the middle east again, where Shiites and Sunnis will hold hands and celebrate. We can now bring the troops back. We won the war! Hoooray! \_ No one ever said excuting Saddam would bring peace to anyone. \_ Perhaps you mean R.I.G. or R.I.I.? R.I.T.? \_ in that regard, Bush also deserve to go to hell too, right? hundreds of thousands of people died since the invasion. \_ You're going to quote the top end figure from the Lancet study as if it was fact? Why not quote the bottom end? Or the average? Or the median? |
2006/12/27-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45504 Activity:nil |
12/26 The panic and confusion were as great as if it had been the City and not the camp that was invested. The consul Nautius was summoned home, but as he did nothing equal to the emergency, they decided to appoint a Dictator to retrieve the threatening position of affairs. By universal consent L. Quinctius Cincinnatus was called to the office ... The novelty and mystery of the thing drew the attention of the plebs towards him whilst those who knew nothing of the plot asked what disturbance or sudden outbreak of war called for the supreme authority of a Dictator or required Quinctius, after reaching his eightieth year, to assume the government of the republic. Servilius, the Master of the Horse, was despatched by the Dictator ... with the message: "The Dictator summons you." --History of Rome, Book III, IV Titus Livy |
2006/12/26-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45495 Activity:nil |
12/26 http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/news/military.php "It's the French Foreign Legion for me!" |
2006/12/20-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45482 Activity:high |
12/20 More attempts to track down the elusive "Capt. Hussein" http://michellemalkin.com/archives/006579.htm \_ she's pretty hot, I'll convert to a Republican to screw her. \_ I haven't read the above url, but I've read a lot of MM urls, and she is a troll of the highest order. Doesn't contribute anything, is thin skinned, isn't particularly witty, I'm just not gonna do it anymore. Even Andrew Sullivan and Pat Buchanan make points that I can agree with now and then. MM should be ejected into the sun. \_ "Written by fools to be read by imbeciles." \_ Wow, I'm glad you're so damn open-minded. The post is about trying to track down the fake Cap. Hussein. It's not nearly as much opinion as simple investigation. \_ It doesn't even matter. CNN/AP/Reuters/NBC/etc have been busted making up stories or twisting the truth so many times it isn't possible to read their stories as anything more than that anymore: stories. This Captain Hussein thing is just one more in a long long long list of lies. \_ Do the voices tell you to do things? -dans \_ I'm trying to figure out the desired end result here. So you and MM are saying that someone is deliberately exaggerating the number of violent incidents around Baghdad? Is that it? I happen to think that it's all underreported. I think there are tons of violent incidents in Baghdad and the surrounding areas that are a result of sectarian civil whatever the hell you want to call it violence, and a lot of horrible things happen but it's not reported, since reporters cannot safely travel anywhere in Iraq. It all sucks. MM sucks. \_ The desired end result is that the media report the truth, not report what they think or want the truth to be even if they sometimes guess right. No one is denying there are deaths, death squads, violence, etc. \_ This Hussein thing must be under my radar. I scan paper copies of the Chronicle, NY Times, and WSJ nearly every day and I've never heard of it. \_ Exactly. Look at your news sources. \_ All right smart guy, I try to stay informed. I read. I read the above 3 papers. I watch Fox to get a good chuckle now and then. WHAT SHOULD I BE READING? Your fucking retarded MM blog? Or maybe Little Green Footballs? The WSJ, if you ignore the editorial page, is one of the finest news sources around. \_ It isn't "my fucking retarded MM blog". Anyway, I don't think it matters what _you_ read. Your mind is set. Read whatever reinforces whatever you already want to believe and be happy. \_ I actually don't know why anyone would object to that list. Though the Chron is one of the most biased rags I've ever seen. -op \_ Actually, it doesn't even really qualify as a blog since she doesn't allow any reader comments. More of a self-published amateur diary. \_ She used to... but then people started posting naked penii redirects all over her pages. She should have hired a right wing CAPTCHA dude. naked penii redirects all over her pages. She should have hired a right wing CAPTCHA dude. \_ The plural of Penis is not Penii. \_ The stories citing this mythical Capt Hussein are invariably the most extreme examples. The story about people throwing kerosene on worshippers leaving a mosque and lighting them on fire as Iraqi police were watching for instance. -op \_ You are right, MM is so fair and balanced and unbiased, I am glad you showed me the light. I can now stop wasting my time reading the WSJ, NYT, The Economist, The Week and all that other MSM trash and just get all my information about the outside world from the brilliant and beautiful MM. \_ I haven't been saying anything about your reading choices. But you're not responding to the points about Hussein. -op \_ Points were made about Hussein in this thread? I don't see any. -dans |
2006/12/19-23 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45476 Activity:nil |
12/19 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061219/ts_nm/iraq_usa_army_suicides_dc_1 Will Fox News report that the number of homicides is up? |
12/24 |