6/3     Dirty Congressman Jefferson finally indicted.
        http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PI5SRO1
        \_ Good --scotsman
           \_ Seconded. --erikred
        \_ About time.  Let's see some real jail time and a felony conviction
           from this one.
        \_ He's innocent I tell ya, just like DeLay and Libby! Selfless public
           servants.
           \_ Libby is going to jail for *not* leaking any secrets.  He got
              totally fucked over on some BS trumped up garbage charge and
              sent to the wolves so *someone* could take the fall.
              \_ Somehow I don't see "Free Scooter!" t-shirts being big
                 sellers.
                 \_ You fail to understand how delusional the Bushies have
                    become.
                    \_ You fail to have the facts at hand when posting.  See
                       below for what Libby was convicted of and while you're
                       at it, compare what happened to Libby vs. Sandy "Stuffed
                       Shorts" who got probation and a trivial fine for
                       stealing and destroying national security documents
                       related to the Clinton administration's policies re:
                       Al Qaeda in the 90s.  If Libby deserves jail then SB
                       deserves a treason charge with life or hanging on those
                       scales of justice.
                       \_ Thanks for making my case for me (btw, I think
                          SB got off too light as well, but that is tangential
                          to the Libby case).
                          \_ Your case was what exactly?  A vague slam against
                             all "Bushies"?  Whatever.  DailyKOS awaits your
                             wisdom.
              \_ Libby is really going to jail for obstructing justice. He
                 still doesn't understand that what he did was wrong, and
                 apparently neither do a number of his supporters.
                 \_ Libby obstructed justice how exactly?  Specifically what he
                    got nailed for was this: the prosecution asked ~8 reporters
                    for their version of events and asked Libby as well.  The
                    reporters gave varying versions, different time lines, etc
                    that didn't match each other.  Libby didn't and in fact
                    could not have matched what the reporters said so he got
                    nailed for what exactly?  Not matching all 8 reporters who
                    didn't match themselves?  Give it a rest, the man is a
                    victim.
                    \_ "It's important that we expect and demand a lot from
                       people who put themselves in those positions," Walton
                       "Mr. Libby failed to meet that bar. For whatever
                       reason, he got off course." From the sentencing judge.
                       They outed a spy and then obstructed the investigation
                       into it. You are right that more than just Libby
                       should have paid, but he was the only case that
                       Fitzgerald felt was going to stick in a court of law.
                       \_ Yes, and?  He's still going to prison for not having
                          the same story as 8 reporters who also had different
                          stories from each other.  And let's not forget the
                          $250k fine on top of 30 months in prison.  This is
                          not justice.
                          \- i am pretty sure he'll be "made whole"/taken care
                             for for his loyalty. obstruction of justice by
                             the powerful is a serious problem and deserves
                             serious penalties. the plea bargaining system
                             has some strage pathologies ... e.g. the guy
                             facing a serious charge with a lame public
                             defender vs. the guy who can pay his legal bills
                             though ill gotten gains or directors/officers
                             insurance or otherwise has deep resources or
                             something truly bizzare like the fbi/cia mole
                             cases where the death penalty was taken off
                             the table in return for cooperation or the
                             OLYMPIC BOMBER case where death penalty was
                             taken off the table because he hid a bunch
                             of explosives in the hills and would not
                             disclose where unless non-death ... those
                             are good candidates for waterboarding.
                             since we've decided to torture people, i think
                             there is an argument to be made that they are
                             "consenting" to torture ... i dont think these
                             people are "entitled" to this arrow in their
                             legal quiver. anyway, libby got the best of the
                             legal process. good lawyer, credible judge,
                             jury, prosecutor. if you want to claim he
                             was railroaded, the very very heavy burden is
                             on you to make the case.
                             \_ Again I ask: *exactly* what did he do that was
                                illegal, in plain English, please?
                                \- can you list you name so we can laugh
                                   at you?
                          \_ The reason he was given such a harsh sentence
                             is because he used his power and authority in
                             an effort to pervert justice and he continues
                             to show no remorse for it (much like his
                             supporters). No one is above the law, not you,
                             and not even the White House. A harsh lesson
                             to have to learn, but one that I wish more
                             WH crooks would get the opportunity to have.
                             \_ With Bush's Pardon in his pocket, Scooter
                                will be above the law.  Sucks, don't it?
                                \_ He isn't going to get a pardon.
                                \_ Well there is that. I guess he really
                                   is above the law.
                             \_ Again I ask: *exactly* what did he do that was
                                illegal, in plain English, please?
                                \_ Obstruction of justice isn't clear enough
                                   to you? He deliberately lied to the FBI and
                                        \_ no.  that's the legal charge.  it
                                           doesn't say what he *did*.
                                   the Grand Jury in an attempt to derail the
                                   investigation. According to Fitzgerald,
                                   this actually had the intended effect of
                                   making the Grand Jury unable to make the
                                   case against the true perpetrators of the
                                   crime of revealing a CIA agents identity.
                                   According to the judge the evidence was
                                   "overwhelming" and according to all 12
                                   jurors, it was "beyond a reasonable doubt."
                                   \_ I'll give you an example of "plain
                                      English": Sandy Burglar went into the
                                      national archives, stuffed a bunch of
                                      Clinton era NSA documents related to
                                      Al Qaeda in his socks and underwear,
                                      hid them a few blocks away then returned
                                      later, took them elsewhere and destroyed
                                      them.  Libby did what exactly?
                                      \- i think sandy burger is a lamer and a
                                         fool and you have to wonder "what was
                                         he thinking" but i'll be happy to
                                         see him burned at the stake IF the
                                         CIA or NSA or somebody other than
                                         a partisan player says he damaged
                                         national security, which has they
                                         took the trouble to say in the Plame
                                         case. In fact I would be kinda
                                         happy to see that. However, I'm open
                                         to the possibility that what he
                                         took out had no national security
                                         importance [as you may not know,
                                         the govt has often classifies a
                                         lot of things en masse and will only
                                         "lazily evaluate" if they should
                                         not declassified. for example there
                                         are documents that are essentualy
                                         just strings of number from sensitive
                                         simulations which are classified
                                         [possible in the relating-to-nuke
                                         classification, which is differnt
                                         from the Secret, Top Secret etc one],
                                         so just the fact that they were
                                         classified isnt quite enough for a
                                         air assessment. If Plame was say
                                         a IT Manager or Food Services manager
                                         at the CIA, even if it was strictly
                                         by the letter not legal to disclose
                                         her identity, I'd be more willing to
                                         think this might have been something
                                         unreasonable at the food of the tree,
                                         but again, the issue is you dont get
                                         to decide when to cooperate with the
                                         FBI and when you cant.
                                         \_ Sandy Burglar: it doesn't matter
                                            what value the documents had.  If
                                            you or I had done it our lives
                                            would have been destroyed over it.
                                            And since he destroyed them we
                                            *can't* know, since that is the
                                            point of destroying them.  We are
                                            forced to assume they did have
                                            value or he wouldn't have bothered.
                                            As far as Libby goes since no one
                                            here seems to actually know what
                                            he is accused of, I'll tell you.
                                            In plain English: Libby voluntarily
                                            talked to the grand jury investi-
                                            gating Plame's ID revealing.  His
                                            story didn't match ~8 reporters'
                                            stories.  Those 8 reporters'
                                            versions of events and timelines
                                            not only did not match Libby, they
                                            did not match each other, and did
                                            not match their own written notes
                                            and did not match their previous
                                            testimony when brought back and
                                            questioned again on the same
                                            topics.  Libby's only crime was
                                            trying to do the right thing.  Now
                                            here are two kickers for you on top
                                            of everything else: Richard Arma-
                                            tage was *known to the prosecutor*
                                            on *day 1* to be the Plame leaker.
                                            Before he ever talked to Libby,
                                            the prosecutor *knew* who the
                                            leaker was.  His entire investiga-
                                            tion was supposed to be about
                                            finding the leaker, but slamming
                                            Armatage wasn't politically useful.
                                            He wanted Cheney, Rove and others
                                            who we now know had *nothing* to
                                            do with it.  He couldn't get them
                                            but he was able to get Libby on a
                                            complete crap charge.  And the
                                            second kicker: Libby's lawyers
                                            tried hard to get Plame's actual
                                            official status clarified in court
                                            but the judge agreed with the
                                            prosecution that whether or not
                                            she was in fact a "secret agent"
                                            or not was not relevent to the
                                            case!  Wow.  And then in the
                                            sentencing phase, the judge then
                                            allows the same prosecutor to
                                            argue that Libby should get super
                                            smashed for revealing a "secret
                                            agent's identity" but never allowed
                                            the defendant to examine that in
                                            court or answer those charges.  A
                                            giant "fuck you" to Libby and any
                                            sense of real Justice.  *THAT* is
                                            the 'plain English' version of
                                            what happened to Scooter libby.
                                            And now we've already started to
                                            see other people refusing to
                                            testify in front of various
                                            congressional committees because
                                            they're afraid they're get Libby'd.
                                            Having one branch of government
                                            literally afraid to *talk* to
                                            another branch of government out of
                                            fear of malicious prosecution is no
                                            way to run a government.
                                            \_ Malicious prosecution, huh...
                                               Sigh.  Aren't you guys the
                                               "if they haven't done anything
                                               wrong, they have nothing to
                                               fear" crowd?  Or is that just
                                               for us laypeople?
                                             \_ To actually believe all that BS
                                                you have to believe that a
                                                guy who indicted Democrats,
                                                Al Qaeda and Republicans
                                                suddently went nuts. Libby
                                                lied and got caught. His lies
                                                totally screwed up a federal
                                                case (remember various
                                                reporters went to jail to help
                                                keep Libby's lies secret) and
                                                damaged national security and
                                                he paid the price. Get over it.
                                \_ What the above guy said:  but let me dumb it
                                   down a bit more:  he lied under oath about
                                   matters relevant to national security.
                                   \_ Yes, nice.  See my above example of
                                      "plain English".  Thanks.
        \_ Rep. Henry Hyde (R-IL) "So for my friends who think that
           perjury, lying and deceit are in some circumstances acceptable
           and undeserving of punishment I respectfully disagree." [House
           Judiciary Committee, 12/1/98].
           Rep. John Mica (R-FL) "If you commit perjury or obstruct justice,
           you will be held accountable. If you are a member of Congress or
           president . . . you will be held accountable. Even if you . . .
           do a thousand good deeds, you will be held accountable." [Orlando
           Sentinel, 12/20/98]
           Former House Majority Leader Rep. Dick Armey (R-TX) "But Mr.
           Speaker, perjury before a grand jury is not personal and it is
           not private. Obstruction of justice is not personal and it is
           not private. Abuse of the power of the greatest office in the
           world is not personal and it is not private." [ABC Special
           Report, 12/19/98]
           Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA) "Perjury and obstruction of justice
           are serious offenses which must not be tolerated by anyone in
           our society." [Washington Post, 2/12/99]
           Senator Sam Brownback (R- KS) "Perjury and obstruction of justice
           are crimes against the state. Perjury goes directly against the
           truth-finding function of the judicial branch of government."
           [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]
           Oh yeah, that was lying about a BJ, obviously a much more serious
           crime than outing a CIA agent.