8/9     Poll, what do you personally do to help the environment? Recycle?
        Planting trees? Ride a bicycle? Nothing?
        \_ I pull out so that I don't over-reproduce more kids who'll
           pollute the earth.
        \_ I live my life the way I like it, because I simply don't give a
           damn about you hippies. Global warming is not going to affect
           me before I die.                     -Republican
           \_ AMERICA!  AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!!! -T.E.A.M. America World Police
        \_ I strictly adhere to Al Gore's example.  He leads.  I follow.
           http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-08-09-gore-green_x.htm
        \_ I don't drive a Hummer. In addition I'm living in a cramped home
           instead of a luxurious suburbian home that is far away.
        \_ I could go on about how I don't own a car and how I bike
           "everywhere", but I think i use as much oil for my plane travel
           as a typical car commuter.  How do those compare anyway?
           \_ do you think car commuters don't travel by plane?
              \_ not really.  that's why summer auto use sky rockets from
                 all the SUV driving, 8 kids having, mouth breathing, red
                 state voting, Gh0d fearing, bible thumping morons.  blue
                 staters don't have summer travel plans and don't fly either.
                 \_ plane use also skyrockets in the summer.  Are you really
                    this dense?  -tom
        \_ I drive a Chevy Suburban instead of a Hummer, thus saving lots of
           gasoline. I hate Hummers. http://ihumpedyourhummer.com
           Seriously though, I don't find myself polluting as much as say,
           the people in Brentwood or Beverly Hills for the simple fact
           that I can't afford expensive stuff that tend to pollute, like a
           Porsche, a big house, nice clothes (that use up more packaging and
           more material and require more shipping), etc. My guess is that
           the amount of pollution one emits has some tendency to do with
           one's personal wealth. There are always exception of course so
           I'm speaking in terms of averages.
           \_ Are you out of your mind? Expensive clothes likely pollute
              less. In fact, I would guess that the wealthy tend to
              pollute less when comparing like items, because they can
              afford to buy organic, natural, and so on. They can afford
              to maintain their cars and/or buy new ones with lower emissions.
              In short, they can afford the added expense of reducing
              pollution. It's the poor who cannot afford to. They are the
              ones driving that 1969 Impala smoking on the freeway, buying
              clothes made of oil, and eating $1 double cheeseburgers
              which are contributing to global warming and the destruction
              of rain forests in South America.
           \_ What's the gas mileage of your Chevy Suburban?
              \_ 6.9 miles per gallon on surface streets. --proud American
        \_ Commute by bus from Union City to Foster City.  Bring my own bags to
           grocery stores.  Recycle (as a third resort after Reduce and
           Re-use.)  Power-off my machines and monitors when leaving work.
           Take the stairs instead of elevators.  (It happened that a PG&E
           energy audit at my company found that the elevators are the #1
           energy hogs in the company.)
           \_ Machine(s)?  Monitor(s)?  Only powered off when leaving work?
              Why do you have multiples and why do you only power off when
              leaving work?  Do you power off everything when you go to
              lunch?  Meetings?  When someone stops by to chat for a few
              minutes?  How much of Gaia's life force do you murder every
              day chattering away on soda?!  Have you sterilised yourself
              or taken a vow of abstinence?  Have you signed a blood pact
              to kill yourself when you're no longer carbon neutral?  You
              could be doing so much more!  Well at least you bring your own
              bags to grocery stores.  That helps a lot.
              \_ I have multiple machines because I need multiple machines to
                 do work.  (VM doesn't work.)  Sorry, I lied about monitor*s*.
                 I actually only have one.  How do I do work if I power off the
                 machines while I'm working?  I don't "go to" lunch because I
                 eat at my desk.  I do power off the stuff when I go to
                 meetings.  -- PP
                 \_ Have you been sterilised yet?  Taken the carbon neutral
                    blood oath?
                    \_ Did you kill yourself and rot so as to contribute your
                       carbon to the environment?
           \_ Holy CRAP!!!  I find this fact about elevators extremely
              suprising.  Are elevators no longer run off of a counterweight?
              I would have though that because of the counterwieght, the amount
              of work done would only be that required to lift your body, which
              shouldn't be much.
              \_ Accelerating the elevator cage, the counter weight, and the
                 passengers (if any) from zero requires energy.  I guess
                 elevators don't have regenerative brakes, so you don't get
                 the energy back when decelarating.  The bigger the elevator,
                 and the higher the speed it travels, the more energy it
                 consumes.
                 consumes.  -- PP
        \_ I intentionally bought a home three miles from work, in a
           walking district.  I've been car-free for over 15 years.  We
           have a 3KW solar electric system which provides all our power.
           Plus lots of feel-good fairly meaningless stuff like recycling. -tom
           \_ All your power?  So I assume you store power in a battery array
              for night power use?  How big is your battery array?  How much
              area does your solar collector take up?  Where did you go to
              start learning about this stuff when you first decided to do
              it?  thanks.
              \_ Don't know what his setup up is, but most people stay
                 connected to the power grid and use something called
                 "net-metering".  Basically you can produce more power
                 in the day time and put power back to the grid (and
                 the meter spins backwards).  During night time you
                 use power from the grid.  If you size you system right,
                 you can essentially have net grid usage of zero.
                 \_ Exactly.  We are still grid-tied, but for the year we've
                    had the system, we've generated more power than we've
                    used.  Unfortunately, with time-of-use metering they
                    need an electronic meter, so you don't actually get to
                    see it spin backwards; we did see that for the first
                    month we had it installed.  -tom
                    \_ If you don't mind saying, how much did the system cost
                       to get installed?  How long is it expected to last
                       before requiring maintenance or replacement?  Thanks.
                       \_ After discounts and rebates and such, it was about
                          $18K.  Maintenance should be nothing more than
                          cleaning the panels once or twice a year.  Most
                          of the components are rated for 20 years and will
                          probably last longer than that: it may be
                          economical to replace them at some point, depending
                          on what happens with solar technology over the
                          next 20 years.  -tom
                          \_ Not bad.  I figured your break even point is about
                             the 12 year mark guessing you're using an average
                             of $200/month in electricity.  Unfortunately, the
                             rebates and breaks aren't that big anymore so a
                             similar system now costs over $30k which means it
                             isn't possible to break even in the 20 year life
                             span of the system.  I assumed a 4% rate of
                             return on your money and zero cost/profit on your
                             electric usage over the 20 years.  If I could get
                             one for $18k I'd probably do it.
                             \_ I think the break-even point is a lot sooner
                                than that, because the solar system increases
                                the value of the house.  Maybe not by $18K,
                                but certainly by an appreciable fraction
                                of $18K.  -tom
                                \_ I thought of that but to get money back that
                                   way you'd have to sell.  The closer you
                                   sell to the 20 year mark the less the system
                                   is worth.  If you sell earlier then you
                                   don't get the full benefit of having it.
                                   Also, I'm guessing it really doesn't add
                                   that much anyway.  For example, having a
                                   pool doesn't add anything to a house.  Some
                                   people want one, some people hate them, so
                                   your potential buyer base drops and overall
                                   a pool generally adds zero.  Anyway, your
                                   18k is a good price and you'll make it back
                                   by any reasonable numbers before the 20
                                   year mark.  Pricing is higher now so that
                                   is no longer true for new units,
                                   unfortunately.
                                   \_ Solar system != pool.  A pool is
                                        \_ granted.  see below for rest.
                                      expensive to maintain, can be an
                                      attractive nuisance, and is actively
                                      dangerous if you have kids.  It is
                                      implausible that anyone would reject
                                      a given house because it has a solar
                                      system; it's an improvement like
                                      new plumbing or central heating which
                                      will consistently be viewed as adding
                                      value.  -tom
                                      \_ But it is a depreciating asset.  At
                                         some point having an expensive thing
                                         that will cost a lot to replace or
                                         repair becomes a negative.  The
                                         closer to the 20 year mark, the more
                                         negative it becomes.  I like having
                                         a roof on my house.  I would not like
                                         buying a house with a 30 year old
                                         roof.
                                         \_ Your central heating system is
                                            also a depreciating asset.
                                            Heck, the whole house is a
                                            depreciating asset.  -tom
                                            \_ No.  Central heat/ac is not
                                               considered an add-on option.
                                               Nor is a roof, front door,
                                               windows, or kitchen appliances.
                                               A solar system is.  The rest of
                                               the house can go up in value
                                               over time even as it falls down
                                               but a house with a nearly broken
                                               bonus item is worth less than
                                               a house that never had it.  I'm
                                               honestly happy for you that you
                                               got a system cheap but you're
                                               not increasing your house value
                                               with it.
                                               \_ It seems to me that both of
                                                  you are ignoring
                                                  1) the fact that energy prices
                                                     could go *way* up in the
                                                     future, changing the
                                                     economic comparisons and
                                                  1) the fact that energy
                                                     prices could go *way* up
                                                     in the future, changing
                                                     the economic comparisons
                                                     and
                                                  2) Having a reliable solar
                                                     electric system(along with
                                                     batteries and inverter)
                                                     protects you from
                                                     blackouts, which could be
                                                     a major asset beyond any
                                                     economic consideration.
                                                     \_ Batteries are probably
                                                        not a net win in urban
                                                        settings; they increase
                                                        the expense and
                                                        maintenance quite a
                                                        bit.  Since I'm grid-
                                                        tied, when the grid
                                                        goes down, so do I,
                                                        although if there
                                                        were some long-term
                                                        problem with the grid
                                                        I could disconnect
                                                        and just generate
                                                        power during the day.
                                                          -tom
                                                        \_ Why don't you
                                                           have batteries?
                                                           My coworker does
                                                           with his solar
                                                           system which is
                                                           tied to the grid.
                                                           When the power
                                                           goes out, he
                                                           stays lit - day
                                                           or not. Is that
                                                           an option?
                                                           \_ It's an option,
                                                              but it's
                                                              expensive, takes
                                                              up a lot of
                                                              space, and
                                                              requires
                                                              fairly frequent
                                                              maintenance
                                                              (battery
                                                              reconditioning).
                                                                -tom
        \_ Separate trash (but mainly to make the poor bastards who go through
           trash for recyclables here not have such a miserable time), turn
           of unneeded appliances/lights, take public transport when I can,
           not buy wasteful packaging.  -John
        \_ I do nothing. In HS, I made sure to throw six-pack plastic
           binders directly in the ocean on school trips.
        \_ Carpool to work, bought a TerraPass, recycle, mulch when I mow the
           lawn.
        \_ I recycle my condoms.  I don't want to pollute the Earth with
           excess latex in the landfills.  Chicks love it.  -proud American
           latex.  Chicks dig it.  -proud American
        \_ Live five miles from work and bicycle or take MUNI back and forth.
           Don't own a car at all. Recycle, reuse and all that. -ausman
        \_ We recycle as much of our waste and garden clippings as possible
           (SJ has a pretty good recycling pgm), and I'm probably going to
           be working ~ 2 mi from my house when I graduate so I can RIDE BIKE!
           to work. I'm planning to go partially off grid w/ a solar system
           in the next year.