Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:18 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34187 Activity:high
10/18   According to, Kerry is "supported by 10 Nobel prize
        winners, intellectuals, scientists, etc. These elitists live in
        ivory tower and are not your typical mainstream Americans. In
        another word, they are out of touch with reality." That is
        really cool! I've been elite all these years and didn't
        even know it. I feel good about myself thanks to the Republicans.
        \_ I think is a better site.  But you
           are right, you, Carter and Arafat are kindred souls.
        \_ You've been a Nobel prize winner all these years?
        \_ What exactly do you have in common with any Nobel prize winners?
           \_ He's in Cal, like some Nobel prize winners.  That's all.
2004/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Health/Women] UID:34188 Activity:very high
            \_ No, he's just totally 133t!
        \_ That's "ABOUT TO STONING".  Read the damn article.  -John
        \_ They're been stoning little girls and women for a long time in
           Muslim countries.  So what?  You want to invade?  We're not the
           world's police.  This is an internal cultural issue.
           \_ America, Fuck Yeah!
        \_ We have death penalty for minors here... what's the big deal?
           the death penalty or the offense?
           \_ Death by stoning, think about it...
           \_ For one thing, it's a 13 year old pregnant by her 15 year
              old brother.  I highly doubt she propositioned him.  The
              brother is NOT getting the death penalty.  (He's getting 150
              lashes, which, depending on the kind of lash, could be a
              death penalty.  Anyone know what the approved lash is in
              Islam?)  I think they're just angry about the gross double
2004/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34189 Activity:nil
10/18   Anti-Kerry spot for the "In the Face of Evil guys."  I think it's
2004/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:34190 Activity:nil
10/18   For the memory-challenged individual below, who stated that there were
        no Davis/recall/Ah-nold flamewars on the motd:
2004/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34191 Activity:moderate
10/18   Jesus this thing is gonna be close.  Zogby has Bush and Kerry tied
        at exactly 45%.  Zogby tends to be far more accurate than Gallup.
        Photo finish indeed.
        \_ They do?  How'd Zogby do in the midterm elections?  Zogby got
           lucky in 2000.  The others had stopped polling because it was
           going to be a Bush blowout until the Dem's dropped their ancient
           DUI garbage bomb a day before everyone voted.  Zogby's
           methodology is use blindly use the same percentages by party as
           voted in 2000.  This looks good on paper but is naive and ignores
           all current events and worse ignores what people are actually
           telling him about their own voting habits and intentions.  He
           trusts them to say who they'll vote for but not if they'll vote?
           \_ I like that you defend Gallup's completely off-base result
              by blaming it on the DUI issue.  You really think that swung
              the election over 8 points in one day?  You're smoking crack.
              By the way, Zogby got within one tenth of one percent in 1996
              as well.  As for Gallup, this is not a partisan thing, although
              Moveon is trying to make it into one.  There are serious problems
              with Gallup's likely voter methodology - there are plenty of
              statisticians concerned about it.  Anyway, anyone who thinks this
              race is anything other than tied is drinking serious Koolaid.
              \_ BUSH LANDSLIDE IN CALIFORNIA!!!11!1
2004/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34192 Activity:nil
10/18   Vietnam Veteran sues anti-Kerry filmmaker for libel (yahoo! news)
        Interesting.  Aren't US libel cases almost impossible to win?
        \_ Sheesh.  Micheal Moore-like editing techniques make this guy
           look bad.
           \_ Yeah, I'm thinking he doesn't have much of a case.  Unlike
              UK law, libel in the US requires the accuser to prove deliberate
              malicious intent.  The "dog ate my homework" excuse is
              essentially a valid defense.
        \_ It has happened here and there but generally, yes.  The 1st
           amendment is generally interpreted as broadly as possible.
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34193 Activity:nil
10/18   So I registered to vote online two weeks ago, and just received my
        form on Friday. It says I need to sign and return it. My question is
        if I drop it off in the mail today, is it too late? Do I need to find
        some place where they have voter registration and hand the form to
        them? I am in foster city.
        \_ No, it's not too late.  You're registered in the system, but they
           need your signature to activate it.
           \_ I'm not so sure about that.  The online fill-out-the-form, we
              mail it to you system seems more like a service to me.  Until
              you sign it and mail it in, I don't think anything is done
              with it.  As to the time-line, iirc, voter registration just has
              to be postmarked by the specified date, while absente-ballot
              registration must be received by the specified date.
              \_ Urk.  Good call.  According to the State, however, today is
                 the last day to register, so op will be in luck if he sends
                 in his card today. -pp
              \_ Can't you cast a provisional ballot regardless of whether you
                 are registered?
                 \_ Yes.  See the following URL and search for "Provisional":
        \_ Called the Secretary of State's Office for you.  They say your card
           is good as long as it's post-marked by today (Monday, October 18).
           \_ Thank you all! I've mailed it at the post office!
2004/10/18-19 [Consumer/Audio] UID:34194 Activity:high
10/18   Hi, I just got a 46" projection TV.  I'm going to upgrade to a
        progressive Philips DVP642 DVD player.  I guess I want component video
        cables since it separates the colors onto three wires.
        On Amazon, I see Recoton ones for $15, and Monster ones for $60-100.
        Is there really a diff?  Is there a better place/brand to buy?  Thanks.
        \_ The DVP642 is the DVD player that plays divx right?  I have this
           player, and if you're planning to play divx movies, it will sometimes
           crop bottom of picture (some subtitles may be unreadable).
           I used standard RCA cables (1 video + 2 audio) for component video
           and it worked fine, but I'm pretty indifferent to picture quality.
           Give it a shot (you will probably already have the RCA cables handy),
           and see if that's satisfactory.
        \_ Not really a difference.  You could maybe go for gold plating over
           silver, but it's not going to really make a difference in the
           picture.  What makes a difference there is the type of cable, and
           in doing component video you should already be a step up.
        \_ Monster uses the worst sort of pseudo-scientific BS to try and
           justify their product.  As PP said, gold plating is good, but
           only really matters if you expect their might be corossion.
           You should only worry about expensive cables if you're trying a
           really long cable run, at which point attenuation and overpriced
           shielding become an issue.
        \_ I've only heard of people using gold-plated cables for analog audio
           connection, not analog video.
           \_ What's the difference between an analog audio signal and an
              analog video signal?  Why would those differences affect whether
              the connector is gold-plated or not?
              \_ I'm not an audiophile and I have no idea.
        \_ Was actually just looking into cabling today myself - trying to
           figure out why a 75 ohm coaxial video cable is really necessary
           for a digital DVD->receiver link?  What would be the effect of
           using a vanilla composite cable (rca) instead?  (it's also short
           distance)?  thanks! - !op
           \_ You really need someone on motd who can test this for you and
              post first-hand knowledge, but from what I've read, well, with
              audio you are dealing with sound up to 22 kHz.  Video is a LOT
              more bandwidth intensive, so speaking in an analog sense, the
              data is up there at much higher frequencies, and theoretically
              cable quality matters at those high frequencies.
              \_ I run plain vanilla rca cable for component video between
                 the dvd player, receiver, and tv.  Works fine for me, and
                 \_ just wondering, what exactly does "component" video mean,
                    in comparison to composite video and 75 ohm coaxial
                    digital video? - 75 ohm coaxial question guy
                    \_ Perhaps you should read .
                    \_ OBTW, in cases where the wavelength of a signal is
                       >> the wire length, the impedance of the wire is
                       dominated by the R of the wire.  In the case of audio
                       and video cables, unless you plan to have really long
                       runs (say 10 meters), I would just make sure the cable
                       is made of something that looks metallic electrically.
                 I could discern no difference in quality from when I used
                 "expensive" Monster cable instead.  I didn't do any quality
                 comparison with Video Essential or whatever test disk, and
                 there are plenty more expensive cables than Monster cable,
                 so YMMV.
                 \_ Monster cabling is even more insulting when you consider
                    that there is a known technique for eliminating interference
                    with analog audio cabling called "balanced cables."  These
                    are par for the course in the professional audio world.
                    They work by carrying mono signals on either "stereo" TRS
                    cables, or XLR cables.

                    This has never gained favor in the consumer
                    audio world because the signal degredation caused by
                    interference is usually too small to make any difference
                    to almost any listener - including "audiophiles."
                    For more info see this URL:
                    \_ You might be interested in my friend's attempt
                       connecting a Sony DVD player to a Dolby Labs decoder
                       via 2 soldered together wire coat hangers.
              , via the web archive.
                       \_ too bad the pictures are all broken links, would
                          have liked to have seen the end result! :)
                  \-OP: what speakers do you have? If you dont have pretty
                        nice speakers, the cabling will be irrelevant.
                        whether the cables make a different with nice
                        speakers is debateable and possibly dependent
                        on your hearing, room etc. many things, including
                        the speaker cables [not the device-device inter-
                        connects], should probably be upgraded before the
                        interconnects. ok tnx. <DEAD><DEAD>
                        interconnects. Good practical advice here:
               ok tnx. <DEAD><DEAD>
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34195 Activity:kinda low
10/18   For the guy who claimed that the majority of geeks lean left...
        still waiting for the url backing that up. -- ilyas
        \_ I don't think anyone has specifically surveyed "geeks," ilyas,
           so you're probably not going to get an url from him.  But I believe
           there have been surveys showing that the more educated a person is,
           the more likely they are to be center/left leaning.  Geek doesn't
           necessarily correlate with "more educated," I admit.
           \_ Actually, I heard it's more of a bell shape -- the richest
              and poorest tend to vote DNC, the middle tends to vote RNC.
              Similarly, for education, high school dropouts and grad students
              for DNC, the rest for RNC. -- ilyas
              \_ I thought I said education, not income level, but whatever.
                 \_ Reading comprehension >>> you.a
                 \_ Reading comprehension >>> you
                    \_ I got what he said.  I just don't know why he started
                       talking about income level, because that is not what
                       we were talking about.
              \_ 2000 election
                 No HS degree:  +20% Gore
                 HS degree:      +1% Bush
                 Some college:   +6% Bush
                 College grad:   +6% Bush
                 Post-grad deg:  +8% Gore
                 Just goes to show, a little education makes you smart enough
                 to watch O'Reilly and think you're smarter than those damn
                 tax-you-to-death, government-handout, eternal victim, take
                 no personal initiative / responsibility liberal elite.
           \_ This left-right thing needs a lot more defining.  There are
              anti-abortionists who support gun control and pro-choicers who
              oppose gay marriage.  If you're talking pro-DNC or pro-RNC, I
              think ilyas has answered well above.
        \_ saved by the Jargon File
           I have found much evidence to support the JF's claim that many
           geeks (hackers, whatever) tend to be libertarian leaning. I
           think framing this discusion in terms of right/left is really a
           bad way to look at it right now in our current politcal climate
           where even the repub pres is not really a conservative by
           most definitions.                    - rory
           \_ I ll buy that geeks tend to lean libertarian, because that
              actually matches my (anecdotal) experience fairly closely.
                -- ilyas
           \_ Hey, if someone told me:
              Liberal Democrat        = more freedom, more government
              Conservative Republican = less freedom, less government
              Libertarian             = more freedom, less government
              ... I'd go libertarian every time.  It's not that complicated:
              "Duh, hey, I'm a libertarian, I'm fucking 1337!  Go away tax-and-
              spend liberals, go away nazi pro-lifers."
              The key criticism with libertarianism is that the U.S. is still
              a two-party country, and well, there are a lot of libertarian
              geeks, and who wants to hang out with the nerds?
              \_ If Bush is anything to go by, Conservative Republican =
                 less freedom, more government.
                 \_ exactly my point. Bush is not a conservative Republican
                    by the traditional def.
                    \_ It seems that once the Republicans became the dominant
                       party, after years of playing the underdog, they realized
                       that they didn't hate this government stuff all as much
                       as they thought they did.  Spending is much easier to
                       support when it benefits you directly.
                       \_ its easy to say you want to shrink govt when you
                          disagree w/ the people running it.
              \_ THAT is the "key criticism" of libertarianism?
                 \_ Okay, let's just say "An important criticism".
                    Then you can tell me what the key one is.
                    \_ libertarianism appeals to nerds (esp mathematically
                       minded ones) because it is based on a supposedly
                       objective series of rules and says that, if left to
                       their own, these rules will naturally and justly
                       govern people. The key criticism of it is that these
                       rules are not as natural as people think... they are
                       based on societies and social order, etc. ie, people
                       say, "hands off, let the market regulate"... but
                       the fact is you cant have good markets w/out good
                       gov'ts.                  - rory
                       \_ I wonder sometimes where 'good governments' come
                          from.  Lately, I've been leaning towards 'good
                          culture' as the wellspring of 'good
                          government.' -- ilyas
                          \_ why is that any easier to define?
                             \_ It's not.  But I am not sure good government
                                can spontaneously happen if the culture is
                                not ready for it.  Introducing a representative
                                republic in Dark Ages Europe would have done
                                no good.  To respond to rory, you are thinking
                                of anarcho-capitalism (which I admit I find
                                appealing, I just don't see how it would work).
                                Libertarianism has inherent tensions because
                                it generally dislikes government but
                                acknowledges its necessity (i.e. it's not a
                                'terse' belief system like A-C). -- ilyas
                       \_ gawd, if libertarianism is this complicated, I can
                          understand why it's not popular.  I would much prefer
                          it if it were described just as "more freedom, less
                          government".  Otherwise I'd just settle with
                          calling myself a small-government Democrat or
                          personal-freedom Republican.  (Yeah, silly, but not
                          as bad as objectivist Libertarian.)
                          \_ Can I still have the FDA, fire departments,
                             health inspections of restaurants, product
                             safety commissions, etc., or will I just have
                             to gamble with my life and hope for the best
                             anytime I eat something, buy a new product,
                             buy prescription drugs, or need emergency
                             \_ It will be just like ebay ratings! You go with
                                the ones with good feedback. Sure, sometimes
                                someone decides to screw over a few thousand
                                or million people and then move to Turkey, but
                                think of the freedom!
2004/10/18-19 [Computer/SW/Mail, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:34196 Activity:nil
10/18   $ uptime
12:15PM  up 50 days,  8:21, 175 users, load averages: 60.94, 54.81, 44.90
        \_ Wizard needs sendmail fu BADLY.
2004/10/18-19 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/Companies/Ebay] UID:34197 Activity:low
10/18   Has anyone been a victim of ebay fraud?
        \_ Yes, although it was for shipping costs rather than the full
           price of the item.  Sold $600 of records to a buyer in the UK.
           Shipping was over $200.  He sent me a "FedEx id number" that the
           FedEx driver accepted, but which later turned out to be fraudulent.
           I was later charged the full amount for shipping and threatened with
           collections if I did not pay up.  The buyer disappeared, and since
           I had already given him "good feedback" for his payment of the
           goods cost, I couldn't ding him through the feedback system.
           Ebay was COMPLETELY unresponsive on this issue, and I have heard
           *very bad things* about their response to fraud issues.
           \_ If I were selling $600 stuff on ebay, I'd have required buyers
              w/ excellent feedbacks only.  What was that guys's feedback?
              \_ Uniformly excellent.
                 \_ Isn't this a special case of the 'collusion problem'
                    Google's trying to solve?  -- ilyas
                    \_ Not necessarily.  This guy got ripped off but has
                       now joined the others who gave positive feedback.
                       \_ Right.  Lesson learned: don't give any feedback
                          until ALL costs are sorted out, and never believe
                          that a FedEx or UPS account number is real until
                          double checking. --ripped off guy.
           \_ Is there some credit-reporting agency in the UK you can talk to
              to shit all over this guy's credit?
        \_ I have. Bought an item and similar (but less valuable) item was
           shipped in return. I took it as a loss. I had very many good
           experiences also, but I am thinking fraud is more common now
           than it was when I used eBay more heavily (5-6 years ago).
        \_ I was indirectly.  A company I briefly worked for had a service
           where you could buy a money order with a credit card and have it
           mailed to a purchaser (to allow eBay buyers to pay with a money
           order).  When I heard about this my immediate reaction was something
           like "Um, isn't this a huge risk?".  The next month we lost $5000 in
           charge-backs from people who didn't get their purchases.  They all
           bought from the same seller who did good business for 4 years and
           then moved to Turkey.  Oh yeah, when I heard about this I looked at
           the seller's address and recognized it as the International House.
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic] UID:34198 Activity:nil
10/18   Alameda County still needs pollworkers!  Please sign up!
        \_ Yeah right for a mandatory 6:30am to 9pm shift.
           \_ If you signed up for it, is it really mandatory?
2004/10/18-19 [Uncategorized] UID:34199 Activity:nil 50%like:34709
10/18   Hey, how's that GOOG short doing, guy?
        \_ I'll let you know when we are legally allowed to short it, guy.
2004/10/18-19 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:34200 Activity:high 53%like:34936
10/18   Half-Life 2 has gone gold.  Street date: November 16
        \_ Not released via Steam until it's available on store shelves.
           \_ I think this is apropos...
           \_ Steam purchase == activation.  I never buy products with
              \_ I thought steam was just a way to activate something you
                 downloaded, rather than running out to buy a physical
                 copy?  Unlike some products which require you to go buy
                 a hardcopy, then activate online.  -John
                 \_ Steam is nice in that it gives you an account, and
                    you can actually use the game from your account
                    on multiple systems.  The disadvantage is the net
                    MUST be working for you to be able to play!
                    \_ You don't get the equivalent of a cd key you can take
                       somewhere with you?  I mean, with a hardcopy, you need
                       to have the booklet/case/piece of paper with the key
                       on it along... -John
                       \_ The games you can play are tied to your password-
                          protected account.  It's just like AIM or MSN
                          Messenger.  Login to multiple PCs with your account,
                          download the full game to every PC - but only one
                          person can play at a time (using your account).
                       \_ Yes you do, but you have to connect to the online
                          service to activate even if you just want to play the
                          single-player version (only once per install).
              \_ The retail boxed version won't require product activation?
                 \_ Not as far as I know.  CD-Key only.
        \_ I wasted an unhealthy percentage of my weekend in Counter-Strike:
           Source. It's the same old thing but I had forgotten how addictive
           it is. I think I'll quit again now though. I had AK-47 sounds
           \_ AK-47 sounds cooler in real life.
           replaying in my head when trying to fall asleep. Yesterday played
           with team kill turned on which was a new twist for me.
           \_ Well, and aiming is a lot more forgiving.  You can be zipping
              left and right and your first shot will always be dead in the
              center.  Aim is primarily affected by "recoil" now.
              Plus, there are less aimbots with CS: Source.
                              \_ fewer
                                 \_ but yermom wants more
              \_ Plus there are the motivational posters like:
2004/10/18-19 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:34201 Activity:low
10/18   How do I get GNU find to seach on all local files systems but
        no NFS filesystems?
        \_ man find  see -fstype type
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:34202 Activity:nil
10/18   Talk about an unfortunate title for the article:
        \_ Talk about an uninformative title for a motd post!
           \_ "Anglicans deal major blow to gay priests"
2004/10/18-19 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:34203 Activity:nil
10/18   Is there a way to disable domain login script on XP?
2004/10/18-19 [Uncategorized] UID:34204 Activity:nil
10/18   Burn Hollywood Burn:
        \_ Shareholder lawsuit?  $50M lost in market cap. (as of 4:30pm mst)
        \_ ^Hollywood^Sinclair
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34205 Activity:high
        Safire:  Stupidest NY Times op-ed columnist ever.
        \_ "Until that moment, only political junkies knew that a member of
            the Cheney family serving on the campaign staff was homosexual."
           When did Safire get replaced with a pod person, and why didn't
           Herb Caen tell us about it?
        \_ calling someone a lesbian is a horrible incident, when
           they happen to be out, and they head their father's efforts
           to appear non evil to gay people?  that rules - danh
           \_ Andrew Sullivan has the best take on all the Mary Cheney
              \_ Well, I admit what Sullivan says in nonsense.  I looked
                 it up just to read "the best take" and all I got was, "A
                 couple of Republican crackpots did some gay baiting too,
                 why isn't anyone complaing about that?"  Umm... because
                 there's a bit of a difference between a presidential
                 canidate and some RNC flyers in some crackpot backwater?
                 \_ If that's all you got out of it, you didn't really read
                    any of his entries.
                    \_ That's the one at the top of the page, I assumed it
                       was the one you meant.
                       \_ I'm not the guy who suggested Sullivan, but he
                          probably meant this:
                          \_ Well, it's still retarded, but at least it
                             makes a little more sense.
                             \_ My theory is still that Lynne Cheney's evilness
                                is being spun into fake righteous outrage.
                                Lots of people disagree with me, but I'm right.
                                \_ Surest sign of this was that it was no big
                                   deal when John Edwards mentioned it - in
                                   fact, Dick Cheney thanked him for mentioning
                                   it.  It only became "righteous outrage"
                                   when it happened in the presidential debate
                                   where Bush forgot that he said he wasn't
                                   concerned about Osama.
                                   \_ The original article covers that
                                      pretty well.
        \_ What happened to csuamotd/csuamotd. Did they just delete this
           account or did someone just change the passwd?
           \_ Try
        \_ It's kinda silly, she hasn't come out supporting gay marriage.
           Just because she's gay doesn't mean she does.  Therefore, Kerry
           using her to push gay marriage is silly.
           \_ The debate question was about whether one believes homosexuality
              is a choice or not.  Kerry said Dick Cheney's daughter Mary,
              if asked, would say that it was not a choice.
              The question was not about gay marriage per se.
              Stupid conservative/independent/libertarian/liberal/peon!
              Pay attention!
              \_ Oops, sorry.  Does any know if Mary Cheney has ever made
                 such a statement, or was Kerry just making that up?
                 \_ Do you realize Kerry said Mary Cheney "would" say that if
                    asked?  See search for "daughter".
                    Kerry said that he believes that if you talk to a gay
                    person, they will tell you it's not a choice.
                    I urge you to find your nearest gay person and ask them
                    what they think.
                    \_ I know, but that's a sterotype.  Maybe she thinks
                       it is a choice.  The Greeks sure did.
                       \_ The Greeks had pretty different ideas about
                          sexuality than we do.
                    \_ kchang?  psb?  What do YOU think?
                        \_ What do I think about the politics or lesbians?
                           I think all political trolls should be offloaded
                           to motd.troll so that /etc/motd.public could go
                           back to what it used to be-- technical/social
                           (foodP) forum. That is what I think.   -kchang
                           \_ motd was never used for foodPs...
                           \_ Yeah, but who would want to archive a bunch
                              of foodPs
                           \_ One thing kchang and tom have in common is
                              an uncanny ability to tell just what
                              precisely IS a troll, and what is not.
                                -- ilyas
                              \_ one thing ilyas has is an uncanny
                                 ability to use sarcasm to make a point
                                 and then thinking that he's so smart.
                              \_ Is this a troll?
2004/10/18-19 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:34206 Activity:high
10/18   sexy women kicking men's ass in Counter Strike:
        \_ Wow, it's great that women today are judged on their abilities,
           not their short skirts.  Nice legs, though.  -John
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34207 Activity:nil
10/18   Here's a nice scam: selling a process to guarantee that someone's
        child will be the gender they choose. When it works, $5000+ from
        eager Chinese couples! When it doesn't, no biggie just give back the
        money (which you earned a few months of interest on).
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Domestic] UID:34208 Activity:nil
10/18   world'so smallest political quiz:
        \_ It says I'm a libertarian, but that's bullshit.  The whole point
           of this test is to convince people who agree with libertarians
           on certain issues that they are in fact libertarian.
           \_ God forbid!  P.S.  The test is lame. -- ilyas
        \_ hey look I'm NOT a Liberal afterall! I'm a Centrist. You guys?
        \_ I'm a liberal.  No surprise there. -liberal
           \_ Same here.
2019/02/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:18 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>