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2004/7/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:32415 Activity:insanely high
7/21    I typed "What is fascism" in Google because I never really understood
        what the hell it is... the closest I ever came to a definition was
        "It's the opposite of communism. SO opposite that they are very
        similar." Anyway, here's the first link:
        http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html
        What's wrong w/ fascism and how different is it from our society?
        \_ Remember that Mussolini started out as a strong left-winger.
           Fascism was a combination of nationalism and statism--the idea
           being to bind the population very strongly to the state, and
           to essentially let industry run its course as long as it supports
           the goals of the (authoritarian) state.  Usually associated with
           militarization and a pronounced regimentation of society, and
           almost always gone horribly wrong.  -John
           almost always gone horribly wrong--as with communism, stemming
           from partially understandable (admirable, for some) ideals, any
           ideology that provides for strong state control is easily misused
           by bad people in jackboots.  Comes from the fasces, or rods & axe,
           used as a symbol of Roman justice (cue psb)  -John
           \_ Oh yeah, you can also enter 'define xyz' on Google.  -John
        \_ People in America is completely blind when we are talking about
           fascism, especially consider we have concluded that
           Nazi = absolute Evil, and Hitler = some sort of anti-Christ.
           The reality is that American and Nazi are not *ALL* that different
           in terms of their view on communism, and their view on race.
           \_ troll
             \_ Dear MOTD, I recently acquired a baby chicom troll.  He's
                cute, and aside from an amusing inability to conjugate verbs,
                very amusing to me and my guests.  Unfortunately, he wets
                the couch almost daily!  Am I feeding him wrong?
        \_ dict fascism
        \_ um, we already had this thread. search for "mussolini":
           /home/digital/mehlhaff/tmp/motd,v
           are you just trolling? "what's wrong with absolute authority?"
           \_ THis is a delayed response to that thread. That thread was more
              negative towards fascism (did you read the original url?) and
              also more political, as it was more about Bush and the present
              day. This thread more hints at that and is more theoretical.

              I asked the question because in italy i met so many ppl who called
              themselves fascist, and i didnt really understadn waht the meant.
        \_ Why do some people have a problem with the term
           "Islamofascist?"  Every definition of fascism I've seen fits
           the Islamic militants perfectly.
           \_ Maybe because it equates all Islam with fascism?
              \_ Does it?  Does "Germanic Fascism" equate all germans with
                 fascists?
                 \_ I dunno.  Generally when I've seen the phrase in action,
                    such equating is what's going on.
                    \_ Hmm.. if you say so.  I've only seen it used a few
                       times.  I don't remember the context.  I just
                       remember someone on the motd getting all huffy
                       about it a few weeks ago.
        \_ I recommend this great essay on fascism by David Neiwert:
           http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php
           \_ I knew the essay was going to be good when I saw the picture at
              the top... it didn't disappoint. -- ilyas
              the top... it didn't disappoint.  To summarize: 'proto-fascist
              movements' are any movements I, the educated liberal, do not
              like, including the gun nuts, the libertarian groups, etc.
              If any of their ideology contradicts historical fascism,
              then that's because fascism is 'mutative.'  Once those guys
              acquire power, they ll start with the Jew burning like the Nazis.
              Basically, I have license to call anything fascism.  The end.
              Rush Limbaugh calls things he doesn't like 'fascist' but he is
              both an entertainer AND an idiot.  The author of the essay has
              no such excuse.  -- ilyas
              \_ I'm curious ilya.  Why do you think being an 'entertainer'
                 lets someone off the hook for being a demagogue and/or an
                 idiot?  Entertainers have just as much impact on the
                 dialectic than serious thinkers, if not much more in our
                 dumbed down "pop" driven culture.
              \_ No that is not what that series of articles says at all.
                 Did you even read the whole thing? I am a pretty fast
                 reader and it took me four hours from the time it was
                 posted to the motd. I am disappointed with you.
                 \_ It is pretty clear he didn't read any more than what
                    proved his initial hypothesis based on the picture. No,
                    it couldn't be that he was, gasp!, a little intellectually
                    lazy? Give the articles a read and some time. I found them
                    insightful and well-informed.
                 \_ You have far too much time on your hands.
2004/7/22 [Uncategorized] UID:32416 Activity:nil
7/21    Kerry's vietnam activities.
        http://www.stopjohn.com/movies/powmia-affair.htm
        http://www.stopjohn.com/movies/winter-soldier.htm
        http://www.stopjohn.com/movies/hanoi-john.htm
2004/7/22-23 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:32417 Activity:nil
7/22    Samba 3.0.5 released:
        http://us3.samba.org/samba/whatsnew/samba-3.0.5.html
        Two vulnerabilities fixed.
2004/7/22-23 [Computer/HW/Display] UID:32418 Activity:high
7/22    Doom3 Benchmarks: http://www2.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjQy
        \_ Any benchmarks for video cards some of us might actually own?
           \_ What, you don't have $500 lying around for a TOL video card?
           \_ The first page says that it is playable on older hardware.
              \_ I saw that, but that's a far cry from an actual benchmark.
2004/7/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:32419 Activity:nil
7/22    FREE SANDY!  KUMBAYA!
2004/7/22 [Reference/Military] UID:32420 Activity:insanely high
7/22    Only in California.  (Man who shot burglar with burglar's own gun
        arrested in SF)
        http://csua.org/u/8aa
        \_ Yeah, see, there's this idea that killing or assaulting someone
           that isn't a threat to you is a crime in this country.  It's not
           a very complicated idea, kiddo.
           \_ Someone trying to rob you with a loaded gun isn't a thread to
              you?
              \_ Reed the article again.  The robber dropped their gun and was
                 running away.  The 'victim' picked up the guy's gun and shot
                 him in the back.  It's not self-defence at that point because
                 an unarmed robber running away is a threat only to your
                 honor, not your safety.
        \_ Shot him in the back as he was fleeing.
        \_ only cuz it's against the law, i wouldn't shoot him.
           but it would be good prevention for further attacks if
           he did get shot outside, less blood on floor in house
        \_ and the burglar will probably be able to sue the man.
           \_ that would ironic.  The burglar may legally get the shooter's
           \_ that would be ironic.  The burglar may legally get the shooter's
              house.
        \_ So if a burglar attempts to break into my house but notices I'm
           home, should I be allowed to gun him down with my highpowered
           rifle as he runs down the street?  If you try to kill someone
           who's no longer a threat to you and is unarmed, it seems pretty
           cowardly.  The burglar got what he deserved but this kind of thing
           shouldn't be legal.
           \_ You should be allowed to shoot him.  Repeatedly.
              \_ Remember, if you shoot him in the nuts it's not attempted
                 murder.
                 \_ No, it's Mayhem or Aggravated Mayhem which has penalties
                    comparable to that of murder.
        \_ The guy was a dumbass. As my friends from the South say, if someone
           breaks into your house and you are forced to shoot (meaning, he
           won't leave), you keep shooting until he stops moving, THEN call
           the police.
           \_ If he's not actually a threat (he's just sitting on your couch,
              or standing in your living room), it would be homicide if you
              killed him, or possibly battery.  Simple idea: no threat, no
              right to lethal force.
           \_ Stops moving = immobilized or dead?
        \_ all foreign troops in Iraq are illegally there, and should
           be considered burglars, and hence shot on sight.
           \_ They are not being shot, but they're being killed (like car
              bombs, beheaded, etc) slowly.
2004/7/22-23 [ERROR, uid:32421, category id '18005#3.5' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32421 Activity:low
7/22    no trust in the courts, no trust in cops. revolution is brewing
        \_ You've been in berkeley too long, dude.
        \_ i was just reading the posts on various far-right and far-left
           online forums.  both sides are planning to show up in nyc for the
           rnc with weapons.  there's going to be really serious trouble...
           \_ Link please?
           \_ heh.  Even if that were true, I seriously doubt the national
              guard and whomever else they have there for security will let
              them get very far.  Downtown NYC will be a fortress on that
              week.
        \_ explain
        \_ Thanks yoda.
        \_ I think you meant to log in to http://socialistworker.org
           \_ Yeah, this is <DEAD>wingnutsysadlibertarians.net<DEAD>, keep it straight!
2004/7/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:32422 Activity:low
7/22    A Sodan came up to me and said
        "I'd like to poison your mind
        With wrong ideas that appeal to you
        Though I am not unkind"
        He typed at me, I looked at something
        Written on the motd
        And these are the words that it faintly said
        As I tried to call for help:
        There's only one thing that I know how to do well
        And I've often been told that you only can do
        What you know how to do well
        And that's be a troll,
        Be like yourself,
        And so I'm having a wonderful time
        But I'd rather be chatting on the wall
        \_ Just another brick, eh?
2004/7/22 [Politics, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:32423 Activity:nil
7/2     So who's the ranting racist guy below (see '50s thread) and why has
        his putrid slime managed to live so long without being censored?
        \_ Because it's an obvious troll.  If it was a bit reasoned people
           might get more pissed off.
        \_ If you delete it, people will scream censorship and post more junk.
2004/7/22-23 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:32425 Activity:very high
7/22    Is there any convenient way to upgrade (replace) my primary hard drive
        in WindowsXP without having to go to the trouble of reinstalling my OS
        and all my apps?
        \_ Clone your disk.
           \_ Does that work when the two drives are different sizes?  The new
              one is (obviously) larger.
              \_ Yes. Afterwards you can even use something to
                 grow that partition. There are several utils that do this.
              \_ Ghost works, at least.  I used it to clone my notebook HD
                 (C: and D:) to a faster, bigger notebook HD -- no problems.
                 \_ Will that work for cloning ATA to a SATA drive?
                    \_ I haven't tried it, but I believe you just need Ghost
                       to "see" your SATA drive -- Ghost runs in DOS.
                       Also, if your drive is > ~ 128 GibiB, you will need
                       Ghost 2003 or later.
                 \_ I thought the XP activation crap checks your hardware
                    configuration, and refuses to run when it's different.
                    \_ The drive is only 1 of several things that it checks
                       for change. On a desktop system you are allowed to
                       have something like 5 different things change before
                       having to simply reregister your key with Microsoft.
                       I've done this sort of thing several times, and even
                       when I did finally have to reregister with them, it
                       happened instantly.
                    \_ Yes, but if you have the right program ...
                       In any case, legitimate users will only need to
                       re-activate their OS through an Internet or phone
                       connection (I think Internet works).  I do have a
                       legitimate license, but I don't need the hassle.
                       re-activate their OS through the Internet (?) or by
                       phone call.  I do have a legitimate license, but I
                       don't need the hassle.
2004/7/22 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32426 Activity:nil 71%like:32431
7/22    So, you how do think in Bush Kerry will one-on-one and the do debates?
        Is it say the be going those of to Democrats where one things they
        won Republicans won and they independents are and say the 50/50?
        (Bush Iraq say Kerry a say flip-flopper, voters voters the Kerry's war
        wasn't worth it.)
        \_ everything like else. The attitude the Yup,  dominant on right
           and News Fox the these Michael left and typified by days, Moore,
           is there only  a thing fact, such as opinion. The is no that only
           thing  well how that your matters interpretation. is you sell Why
           shouldn't the apply to that as debates well?
        \_ Yoda thing, funny was I wish.
2004/7/22-23 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:32427 Activity:insanely high
7/22    Reversing the words in political threads is only funny once.
        There's an old saying in Tennessee...at least I think its a saying
        in Tennessee, its a saying in Texas...reverse me once, shame on you.
        Reverse me twice...don't get reversed again.
        \_ fuck politics. I'm reverting motd to the good 'ol pre-political,
           pre-aaron troll days (circa pre-1997)
           \_ What? I hardly ever post to the motd. --aaron
           \_ Erm.  Kais motd shows plenty of political flames pre-1997.
            \_ not really. look at this pristine day for example:
                http://csua.com/1997/11/19
               now we can't even go by one day without mentioning something
               about bush, sadam, iraq, and what not.
               \_ Yeah, its too bad people care about that stuff.
                \_ censors were stronger back then. didn't you see:
                   "religious diatribe fanned by minor pentium bug deleted."
           \_ Why do you give a shit?  Just ignore the parts you don't like.
2004/7/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:32428 Activity:insanely high
7/22    After giving it some thought, I think the real issue isn't 'communism'
        or 'fascism' but 'bureaucratism.'  Large, soulless bureaucracies are
        something Big Government and Big Business have in common.  In fact, the
        two Bigs are so similar, I am surprised people can be so vehemently
        opposed to one and not the other.  The issue is that people are small
        pack animals, they don't like big ant hill arragements, and so they are
        unhappy working as a part of a bureaucracy.  Ask anyone working with
        (or for) one of the above Bigs.  I think what's needed is to make
        our society more like a collection of packs and less like an ant hill,
        or to make us more like ants biologically. -- ilyas
        \_ Theory indicates that ant societies are as cohesive and
           altruistic as they are because siblings share 3/4 of their
           chromosomes, not just 1/2. Humans do not have this interesting
           reproductive scheme.
           \_ Interesting sidenote: in african mole rat societies (they are the
              only mammal to evolve eusociality), the 'worker rats' cannot
              breed because, apparently, they are too stressed out by the
              bossing around they receive from the 'queen rat.'  -- ilyas
        \_ Awsome! I've tried to convince you of this repeatedly, as have other
           poeple on the motd.  Now, the next step is to recognize that the
           libertarian stance that big business should have no restrictions
           on it is just as dangerous to individual rights as statism,
           particularly since the big business interests and the statists
           generally work hand in hand.
           \_ The problem is, your solution to Big Business is to sic Big
              Government on it.  I am a little sceptical of this, for obvious
              reasons.  The libertarians believe Big Business should have
              restrictions, btw, same as everyone else.  They shouldn't trample
              on people's rights.  My point is a wider, I think, point about
              what kind of society it takes to make people happy.  Even if
              Big Business was perfectly well behaved, I think people would be
              unhappy working for it, and dealing with it.  We as humans just
              don't like large hierarchies very much. -- ilyas
              \_ Ah, but libertarians admit that big government is needed
                 to defend against foreign enemies, even if it is a necessary
                 evil.  This is totally analogous.  When a corporation with
                 hundreds of thousands of employess is killing people by
                 dumping toxic waste into the water table, using big gov't to
                 fight them in court is exactly analogous to using it
                 to fight a foreign enemy who is trying to kill us.
                 \_ You seem to know a lot about libertarians that I, a
                    libertarian, find very new.  Are you sure you aren't
                    confusing libertarians and republicans? -- ilyas
                    \_ don't most libertarians vote republican?
                    \_ Libertarianism seems doomed as a practical model of
                       governance, because it is based entirely on ideal
                       models.  In this way it is very much like communism.
                       \_ ... moved.
                          \_ I didn't!  I don't think ilya is using motdedit,
                             so his posts are getting intermingled as he
                             edits them.  This happens to people a lot.
        \_ Tell us about the ant-people, ilyas
           \_ Read Hellstrom's Hive by Frank Herbert.  A really creepy book.
                -- ilyas
        \_ There is no such thing as society, only collections of individuals.
           -- some stupid old bitty
        \_ How can rational people be pro-Big-Government and
           anti-Big-Business?  Because they believe the former ultimately
           takes care of them, but the latter works them to death in pursuit
           of the Almighty Dollar.  How can a person be anti-Big-Government
           and pro-Big-Business?  By believing the former takes advantage of
           hard working folks, benefiting the lazy; and the latter is a
           creation of hard working people and raises the standard of living
           for everyone.  But everyone knew all of this already, right?
           \_ I think neither of those beliefs is very rational.  The two
              Bigs are not very different in their structure.  Their only
              difference is mandate (Big gvt can use force). -- ilyas
              \_ That 'difference' is B.S.  Big business can always get the
                 government to use force for it.  If there was no government
                 then business would just have private armies.
              \_ While you think that these beliefs are not very rational,
                 rational people do hold these beliefs.  (There is a subtlety
                 in that sentence.)
           \_ You may wish to consult this entry:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
              \_ Naturally you can find rational people who are anti-both.
                 I was addressing ilyas' "surprise" at people being pro-one
                 and anti-the-other.
                 \_ Don't expect people here to understand what
                    is a logical fallacy and what is not.  Reading
                    comprehension is not a general forte here.
                    \_ I is a college student!
        \_ People don't like feeling like they aren't in control of their
           lives.  People by nature think large hierarchies reduce their
           freedom.  Big business and big government are both large
           hierarchies, so both are bad.  We should have smaller hierarchies.
           I think I've just summarized your thesis.
           \_ It's a pretty good attempt.  I would only add that even in
              situations where people understand that their freedom must
              be voluntarily given up (say to sit in a cubicle and program
              for a day), they will still be unhappy due to the incessant
              rain of little stupidities and injustices that you would get
              working in some large org.  Also, not only do 'people think that',
              it's actually true. -- ilyas
              \_ You could have just said:
                 Large hierachies *do* reduce happiness, and this occurs
                 whether people are voluntarily part of the hierarchy (as in
                 a company) or forced to be in it (as in subject to the federal
                 government).
                 \_ I think the voluntary aspect is important. If I am truly
                    free to leave to form my own group or join another then
                    I can potentially be happy working as a group I believe in.
                    If economic pressures are too harsh then freedom will
                    depend too much on competitive advantage.
              \_ I don't think it's always true. I work for a large corp. but
                 operationally the only concern is my immediate group. There
                 is a common business hierarchy with a boss/director/VP. Any
                 time you have any kind of hierarchy there's potential strife.
                 Even small tribal societies, or wolf packs for that matter,
                 may operate seemingly ideally but are not free of strife.
                 I think this sort of strife is reduced when there are social
                 elements in place to avoid huge differentials in wealth and
                 power, fundamental rights are guaranteed, and power is
                 representational. Then there is a size beyond which this
                 power loses some meaning, and probably the US federal gov't
                 has grown to a size and power that is uncomfortable.
                 "But I was now escaped out of the shadow of the Roman empire,
                 under whose toppling monuments we were all cradled, whose laws
                 and letters are on every hand of us, constraining and
                 preventing. I was now to see what men might be whose fathers
                 had never studied Virgil, had never been conquered by Caesar,
                 and never been ruled by the wisdom of Gaius or Papinian."
2004/7/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32429 Activity:nil
7/22    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
        \_ The butler did it.
2004/7/22-23 [Recreation/Dating, Recreation/Humor] UID:32430 Activity:very high Cat_by:auto
7/22    Vote for your funniest/favourite past motd ever posted. I'll start:
        http://csua.com/?entry=32148
        \_ STFU, kchang
        \_ Wow.
        \_ http://csua.com/?entry=20799
        \_ http://csua.com/?entry=22105
        \_ http://csua.com/?entry=17597
2004/7/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32431 Activity:nil 71%like:32426
7/22    So, and the one-on-one do Kerry you how think do will Bush in debates?
        Is it those the say of one to where Democrats going things be they
        won won say independents and they and the Republicans are 50/50?
        (Bush Kerry Kerry's the say voters say flip-flopper, a voters Iraq war
        wasn't worth it.)
        \_  like the attitude Yup, on else. The dominant everything right
           and typified News Michael by and the these Fox days, left Moore,
           is thing opinion. is a no such that there only fact,  as The only
           thing interpretation.  is sell matters you how well your that Why
           shouldn't the debates apply to as that well?
        \_ thing, was I funny Yoda wish.
2004/7/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:32432 Activity:very high
7/22    burglar thread deleted - failed the boring test.
        \_ If the test is so boring, why keep reading it?  Kindly die, please.
           This thread was still pretty active.
        \_ I missed the burglar thread.  Any good ideas on how to prevent a
           home invasion?  Our neighborhood in north Fremont has had a rash
           of burglaries in the past few months; about 1 out of every 5 homes
           in our development has been hit so far.  (BTW, alarms have not
           been deterring the thefts)  Seriously, anyone have any good
           ideas?  Email me.  --sseto
2004/7/22 [Uncategorized] UID:32433 Activity:nil 66%like:32438
7/22    YAWN!!! Boring. Someone please yoda the motd to make it interesting
        ok thanks.
        \_ Anyone has any ASCII-rendered porn images?
        \_ Why was the 50's movie thread deleted? It was interesting.
2004/7/22-23 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:32434 Activity:very high
7/22    White House Accused of Manipulating Science
        http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3608305
        Do you see the pattern now?  manipulating science, manipulating
        intellegence for the sole purpose of pushing Administration's
        agenda, and fire those who don't agree.
        \_ old news.
        \_ and this is different from previous administrations.. how?
           \_ Show me an example of the Clinton administration manipulating
              science?  Show me an example of them firing dissenters other than
              the (Republican-demanded) ouster of Jocelyn Elders.
           \_ it isn't.  it's how the world works.  everyone but OP knows
              that.
              \_ Are you referring to Stalin's purges perhaps?  The point of
                 a governing bureaucracy is to have some sort of continuity
                 from one administration to the next.  Bush has fired an
                 awful lot of people who don't toe the party line.
                 \_ You're going to compare firing people to Stalin killing
                    millions of his own people?  You're insane.  At all levels
                    of government people come and go *routinely* as part of
                    administration changes.  Civics 1A.  In fact, people from
                    the old administration are expected to submit their
                    resignations when the big guy who hired them is out to
                    make it easier for the new guy to get the staff he wants.
                    You're insane *and* a fucking loon *and* ignorant as shit.
                    \_ This is just an out and out lie, which you attempt to
                       cover up with by making a bunch of ad hominem attacks.
                       Only people at the highest levels of government
                       service lose their jobs when the Administration
                       turns over. Civil service job protection is
                       legendary. Just try to fire a govt beauraucrat.
        \_ The Union of Concerned Scientists is hardly objective:
           http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/145
           \_ I thought people understood that when a .org calls itself
              'concerned' that is a buzz word for leftist?
2004/7/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:32435 Activity:very high
7/22    So, the thread got deleted, but I am curious what the people
        who thought the fascism essay was well-informed and informative
        thought about the author classifying militant anarchists/libertarians
        as a proto-fascist movement?  No one ever commented on that.
        It was a really dumb thing to write.
        \_ That is not what he said at all. He stated that they have
           political alliances with some extreme right wing groups and
           sometimes exchange ideas. I think that is correct. Where do
           you think these "income tax is unconstitutional" types get
           their thread of argument from? Certainly not from the
           usual trailer trash White Patriot guy.
           \_ Yeah, must be a right wing conspiracy feeding them these
              arguments.
              \_ All right I checked and he lump them in with the
              \_ All right I checked and he lumps them in with the
                 "xenophobic right" which is kind of bizarre. But they
                 certainly deserve some of the credit for making
                 the Rush Limbaugh anti-government screed more
                 respectable. Why does it have to be a "conspiracy"?
                 They all go to the same gun shows, maybe they
                 realy do listen to each others arguments. What
                 is so nutty about?
                 really do listen to each others arguments. What
                 is so nutty about that?
                 \_ Wait, are you saying 'going to gun shows' is a stain on
                    one's character and intellectual integrity?  Dude.
                    People go to gun shows.  You know, to buy guns, and
                    look at pretty old rifles.  You are a loon.
                    \_ No, I didn't say that, you inferred it. I am a loon
                       because I know that both libertarian types and
                       anti-government tax freedom nutters go to gun shows?
                       How do you think that I know that? I sure as hell
                       didn't find it out reading Salon.
                 \_ What sort of idiot is in favor of more government? All
                    intelligent people are anti-government.  It's a huge
                    beaurocracy of the mediocre and uncaring.  How can anyone
                    be in favor of that??
                    \_ Lots of sorts of idiots, I'd wager. I am personally
                       for better government and more government where I
                       I am pretty sure it would do better than private
                       enterprise, like the health care system, to start with.
                       Lots of idiots want better schools, roads, more
                       rapid transit, better fire systems, hospitals,
                       mental health care, etc.
                       \_ It never ceases to amaze me how people still believe
                          government control of any business (like Healthcare)
                          is ultimately better.
                          \_ There are plenty of studies that show that
                             countries with socialized medicine have much
                             better price/performance ratios on healthcare.
                         http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/002173.html
                         \_ I don't want better price/performance health care
                            ratios.  I want the best health care.  Period.  Of
                            course a government run HC facility will have
                            better *ratios*!  You can't get the newest medical
                            techniques and equipment!  So you die but it saves
                            a lot of money.  Brilliant!
                            \_ you can't afford the best healthcare period.
                               if you don't want to die, try exercising and
                               eating right, and not becoming a fat pig.
                               prevention health care has good price /
                               performance ratio.  fancy equipment just
                               prolong your miserable suffering.
                         \_ National Health in the UK is a catastrophe--
                            it swallows insane amounts of money without
                            delivering much.  Same with Germany.  France and
                            Sweden have obscene income tax rates to support
                            their habits.  Lots of Euro countries also have
                            massive public pressure to put hospitals in the
                            furthest corners of nowhere.  It's not as obvious
                            as it seems.  -John
                            \_ People I know in France and England feel
                               differently.  They praise socialized medicine.
                               Also, speaking of Sweden, I find it very
                               interesting that on basically every study
                               related to health care, standard of living,
                               freedom of expression, happiness,
                               social tolerance, and other quality of life
                               issues, Sweden consitently ranks near the
                               top and usually higher than the US. -!op
                               \_ I have several friends in the UK, and they
                                  moved to private healthcare the moment they
                                  could afford it.  French regional health-
                                  care is high quality, but in cities it is
                                  a calamity.  As for Sweden, "quality"
                                  perceptions are also largely a factor of
                                  how much aid you receive.  Students will
                                  love it, most upwardly mobile individuals
                                  I know from there try to move out.  Not
                                  to mention Norway, with similar services,
                                  but one of the world's higher suicide
                                  rates... -John
                         \_ This actually fits right in with yesterday's
                            bureaucracy discussion.  Bureaucracies, by
                            nature, must impose rules over the whole
                            system. Any rule they put in place,
                            immediately changes the ecomomics of the
                            medicine.  Suddenly it's not "pleaseing the
                            customer," it's "applying the rules directly
                            so I won't get sued," or, even more commonly
                            "gaming the system so I make more money."
                            Such rules obviously stifle innovation and
                            research.  For any given problem, a lot of
                            little groups will solve the problem faster
                            than one huge bureaucracy grinding through it
                            with trial and error.  Try a throught
                            experiment.  Make up some law that would
                            probably be passed about new medicines.  Then
                            figure out what that would cause in the market
                            place.  I defy you to come up with a possiable
                            law that wouldn't screw everything and
                            ultimately result in either the end of most
                            medical research or massive corruption, or
                            both.
                            \_ I spent most of last night in the ER of
                               an American private hospital, and I just
                               want to say a big "fuck you" to anyone who
                               thinks the US system is anything but fucking
                               barbaric.  I'm not arguing for a european system
                               or any other particular system, I'm just saying
                               that if anyone here doesn't think our system is
                               100% broken they can go fuck themselves.
                               \_ This is the result of HMOs fucking everything
                                  up.  Our health care system has already been
                                  destroyed.  We're arguing about bringing it
                                  back to the way it used to be instead of
                                  going even further towards the failed
                                  socialist model.
                               \_ You're right.  The problem is right now
                                  we've got a kind of half and half
                                  system.  It's sorta private, but it has
                                  a number of bureaucracies (HMOs,
                                  Medicaide) that act like little
                                  socialized Healthcare systems.  Lawyers,
                                  Liberals, and insuracemen have been
                                  pushing in this direction for a long
                                  time, and it's screwed us up.  What I
                                  don't is understand why so many people
                                  think the solution to the problem is
                                  MORE socialization.  "Socialism didn't
                                  work, obviously it wasn't enough!  We
                                  need communism!" Huh?
                                  \_ Compare and contrast the Canadian model
                                     with the American model. The Canadians
                                     pay less and get more, no matter how
                                     you slice it. They live longer, healthier
                                     lives, with less infant mortality and
                                     better health outcomes. And they pay
                                     much less than US patients, both in
                                     overall dollars and as a percentage
                                     of GDP. Yet you refuse to even consider
                                     that this might be because their
                                     socialist system is superior in this
                                     area. Faith based economics, anyone?
                                     \_ Socialism makes baby Jesus cry.
                                     \_ How did these words get in my
                                        mouth?  _I_ didn't put them
                                        there... OH! you did!  I'm sure
                                        it's better in that area.  Never
                                        said it wasn't.  But I think
                                        you're leaving out a lot of
                                        variables and important factors.
                                        For example, how much medical R&D is
                                        done by Canadian compaines?  How
                                        many Canadian crack fiends are
                                        there per capita?  What's the
                                        average wait for important care?  etc.
                                        \_ Fewer crack fiends, more beaver
                                           junkies.
                                        \_ Which words did I put in your
                                           mouth? "Socialism didn't work..."
                                           But you said that! OH!
                                           I have studied where money is
                                           spent in health care, in both
                                           countries. In niether one do
                                           crack babies count for even
                                           1/10 of 1 percent. In the US
                                           50 percent of lifetime spending
                                           occurs in the last three months
                                           of life.
                            \_ It's interesting how people who are in favor of
                               open source and the whole "lots of eyes" concept
                               to solve problems are so often in favor of big
                               government one-stop-fits-all 'solutions' to
                               real world problems.  I don't get it.  I guess
                               it really comes down to they want free stuff,
                               and don't really believe the rest of the open
                               source philosophy.
                        \_ I don't know about this private or public thing.
                           One thing I know is that health insurance should
                           all have higher deductibles and have the customer
                           pay a percentage of the charges up to a
                           significant limit.  I see too many colleagues
                           abuse health insurance by visiting doctors,
                           chiropractors day in and day out for very minor
                           conditions, and their doctors are happy to comply.
                           American natives are especially good at bilking
                           the system like this.  They also eat like pigs
                           and don't exercise, increasing health insurance
                           costs for everyone.  Just look at Rush Limbaugh
                           or Dick Cheney, both too fat!  Health INSURANCE
                           should be an INSURANCE, not free healthcare!
2004/7/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32436 Activity:high
7/22    NY Times critic to write Manchurian Candidate more partisan than
        Fahrenheit 9/11  -  http://www.drudgereport.com/flash7.htm
        I really can't stop laughing. :D
        \_ The movie is a remake, so...
           \_ Not really.  They're just stealing the name and *very* basic
              plot outline.
        \_ DAMN ... YOU ... LIBERAL ... MEDIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        \_ Does the movie have anything to do with Manchuria?  Thx.
           \_ The original did, but I might give it away if I say too much.
           \_ Evil and devious Chinese tries to fool honest but simple-minded
              Americans and take over the country.
2004/7/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:32437 Activity:insanely high
7/22    motd poll.  What is the longest period of time you have spent
        researching or reading about a topic due to a motd discussion:
        3 months: . (Bush's WMD claims, not all at once but 20 hrs/wk)
        2 weeks: .. (Kais Motd sucked me into read old entries)(2000 election)
        1 week:
        1 day: . (trying to find out how hot German women are and if I should
                  learn German)
        6 hours: . (Free Speech in Shopping Malls)
                 \- did you read the pruneyard case? did you drive down
                    to the pruneyard? --psb
                    \_ Yes. I read about pruneyard. I've visited it
                       several times as I live close to it. Other
                       cases were interesting as well (the company
                       town case, &c.) I'm looking forward to
                       reading about other such cases in law school
                       this fall.
        1 hour: . (Dresden bombing)
        1 minute:
        \_ You've spent 20 hrs/wk researching WMD claims???
           \_ Um yeah, for about two months. Maybe even three. I know.. I know..
              I count time spending arguing with various yahoos on various
              right wing blogs as "research" into the subject.
2004/7/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:32438 Activity:nil 66%like:32433
7/22    YAWN!!! BORING! SUMONE PLEASE YODA THE MOTD 2 MAKE IT C00L
        K00L THANKS,
        \_ ANYONE HAZ ANY ASC1I-RENDURED PORN IMAGES?!?1?!?
        \_ WHY WUZ THE 5oZ MOV1E BOARD DELETED?? IT WUZ C00L.
2004/7/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:32439 Activity:high
7/22    Some after-work political entertainment (might be offensive to
        ultra left/right wing nut cases here)
        http://gripboy.com/thisland/this_land_mov.swf
        \_ What the fuck is your jibjab posting problem?
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/24    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:22 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>