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2017/12/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/18   

2007/9/15-22 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48080 Activity:nil
9/15    I have a rc car from about 2 -3 years ago, the "Vertigo Super Top".
        The battery pack is shot and I can't find the manufacturer or
        any hobby store online that sells a 4x2 hump pack.  Are there any
        rc fans here who can point me to a reputable hobby shop, online
        instructions for building my own, or anything else that might get
        my car going again?  Thanks!
        \_ link:www.cheapbatterypacks.com
           \_ They didn't have a pre-build that fits and I'm not sure enough
              of what I need to have them custom build it.  I found the
              manufacturer in China and sent them an email.  Maybe I'll get
              lucky and they've still have some sitting around.  Thanks.
        \_ An RC fan friend of mine says http://stormerhobbies.com is good if this
           is for racing, otherwise, he recommends ebay.
           \_ I ended up buying a second car of the same model from ebay
              which is supposed to be new-in-box with the charger and more
              batteries.  With the new charger I hope I'll be able to charge
              the old batteries and have 2 cars.  If not, I've got the one
              car at least.  Thanks and tell your friend thanks, too.
2007/9/7-10 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:47928 Activity:nil
9/7     "Gas Price, Style Drive Small Car Growth"
        http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070824/small_cars_big_gains.html?.v=4
        "Now competitors have upgraded small car interiors and safety systems,
        and U.S. buyers are responding because the cars are far safer than
        their predecessors,"
2007/8/29-31 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:47794 Activity:nil
8/28    Anyone owns a Nissan Altima Hybrid?  Is it good?  Any complaints?  I'm
        trying to compare it to Camry Hybrid.  Thx.
2007/8/21-23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:47679 Activity:low
8/21    Wow, all I can say is "fugly"!
        http://jalopnik.com/cars/new-cars/2008-honda-accord-revealed-291565.php
        \_ Interesting. The Accord and Camry did a flip-flop. It used to
           be the case that the Accord appealed to the younger crow. The
           new Camry has an aggressive style to appeal to the younger
           generation while pushing older crowd to their Lexus lines,
           while the new Accord has gotten a much more mature look.
           Interesting.
           \_ It seems to me that for more than a decade, Camry's look has
              always been following the Lexus sedan's look from one or two
              model year earlier.
        \_ V-6 6-sp manual coupe gets 16/25mpg.  Gee, this is worse than my
           2004 Toyota Sienna 8-passsenger van!
        \_ As usual the couple looks much better than the sedan.
        \_ Will people think I am gay if I buy a mini? -- ilyas
           \_ Mark Wahlberg drove one in The Italian Job, and he played John
              Holmes in Boogie nights.
2007/7/27-8/1 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:47448 Activity:nil
7/27    Swiss name Toyota's Prius the world's greenest car
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070727/sc_nm/cars_pollution_dc
        \_ I guess they don't count the strip mine for the nickel.
           \_ The Prius isn't the only car that contains nickel.
          \_ We don't actually drive them, we just name them.  Our
             public transportation system works fine.  -John
2007/7/25-31 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:47420 Activity:nil
7/25    "Toyota unveils plug-in hybrid, to test on roads"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070725/tc_nm/toyota_plugins_dc_2
        This will put EDrive (http://www.edrivesystems.com out of business.
2007/6/19-21 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:47015 Activity:nil 80%like:47010
6/19    thanks psb
        http://urltea.com/sxs (njudahchronicles.com)
2007/6/19 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:47010 Activity:nil 80%like:47015
6/19    thanks psb
        http://www.njudahchronicles.com/2007/06/reader_mail_blocking_the_n_jud.html
        \_ Was it psb in that Prius?
2007/6/17-19 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46989 Activity:kinda low
6/17    I really don't understand this 100MPG plug-in hybrid hype. If you
        charge the big battery up and drive only 5-10 miles in between
        charges and NEVER use the gasoline, wouldn't you technically have
        an infinite MPG vehicle? Do you see how lame it is to call it
        a 100MPG plug-in hybrid if your power source comes elsewhere?
        \_ URL for the 100MPG claim please?
           \_ http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/364.html for one.
              Yes, it's lame. -tom
        \_ The way I interpret this is that for the Prius you still need
           the gas engine for acceleration.  The gas engine and elec.
           motor by itself is not powerful enough for all driving
           situation.  If you go 100% electric, you'll have a really
           low-powered car.  So instead of the elec. motor assisting
           the gas engine, you are doing the opposite.  Thus the 100MPG
           claim for the first 30-40 miles.  Yes, the power comes from
           other source, but it is easier to market it as MPG.  The
           average person has no clue how much electricity is really
           used in terms of driving or everyday usage.
           \_ yes, it's easier to market complete falsehoods.  "My commute
              is 50 miles including a 25 mile ferry ride, so I get 100MPG
              in my Prius!"  -tom
           \_ If that's the intention, the author should use phrases like "an
              equivalent of 100MPG".
2017/12/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/18   

2007/6/15-19 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46963 Activity:nil
6/15    Gas Prices Expected to Rise at Pump
        http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070615/oil_prices.html?.v=13
        \_ Gas prices will go up and down but the long term is always up now
           since there are no oil supergiant discoveries to save our behinds
           left such as the North Sea in the 1970s.
           \_ There's oil on the moon, I'm sure.
              \_ No way!  Don't you know that it was the Democrats, not the
                 Republicans, who took the country to the moon?
        \_ Interesting graphs comparing the price of gasoline around the world
           with per capita GDP.  The results may surprise you.
           http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/2653#more
           Another data point from the same site is that US "average miles
           driven" is so much higher than other countries that our
           gas price advantage gets wiped out:
           http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2005/10/22/235239/89
2007/6/10-13 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46901 Activity:nil
6/10    Disel Hybrid
        http://csua.org/u/ivy
        I don't understand this entire bio-disel thing.  Why American car
        maker has to "choose" between "hybrid" versu "bi-disel." when these two
        things can easily combined together.
        \_ Anyone know what happened to the eCycle?  It was a diesel-hybrid
           motorcycle that claimed to get 180 mpg.  -scottyg
        \_ Because the market here is not as mature as that in Europe.
           Similarly, Toyota has been selling hybrid minivans in Japan for
           years, yet the Sienna here won't get a hybrid outfit until 2009 or
           later.
2007/6/8-13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46893 Activity:moderate
6/9     Dear hybrid and bike riding fanatics who hate SUVs: What do you
        think about people driving their RVs across the country, or people
        who fly planes (with much less miles per jet-A fuels than miles
        per 87-91 octane fuels for cars), or people who drive high
        performance sportscars with only 10-15MPG? What about the amount
        of pollutants an electric car battery (or hybrid car battery)
        emits and destroys the earth at the end of the battery's lifetime?
        I'm just trying to understand why liberals think the way they do
        Thanks for any insight.
        \_ Hi non-interesting-troll!  Commuting daily with your
           bicycle has nothing to do with the above.  Please
           be funnier.
        \_ I don't love hybrids or hate SUVs per se.  I hate people who have
           alternatives commute solo over long distance in vehicles with low
           gas mileage.  Also, I hate people who drive SUVs as if they're
           driving a car, and then complain that SUVs are dangerous.  Before
           the "SUV" era, people drove 4x4s as 4x4s and minivans as minivans,
           not as cars.  I bought my first "SUV" in 1992, and my friends called
           it a truck.
           driving cars, and then complain that SUVs are dangerous, forcing
           manufacturers to "domesticate" SUVs with silly changes like
           lowering the CG in the expense of ground clearence and body
           ruggedness.  Before the "SUV" era, people drove 4x4s as 4x4s and
           minivans as minivans, not as cars.  I bought my first "SUV" in
           1992, and my friends called it a truck.
        \_ I hate suvs cause I can't see around them.  Simple as that.
           They make the road more dangerous.
           \_ Agreed. I'm not an enviro-fanatic but I hate SUV's and any other
              tall vehicles. BMW's also tend to piss me off because they seem
              to always be driven by assholes.
              \- a lot of the older driving stereotypes ... BMW drivers,
                 people driving large cars poorly etc are now trumped
                 by people driving cluelessly due to cellphone use.
                 of course a woman in an humvee who isnt a good driver
                 while on a cellphone in downtown sf [i.e. yesterday]
                 is even worse.
                 \_ BMW drivers aren't just bad.  They are assholes.  Of
                    the won't let you pass, cut you off, don't use turn
                    signal, tailgateing, driving too fast variety.
                    Yes it isn't all of them, but they are higher than
                    the average.
                    \_ I'll let you in on a secret. When you drive a BMW,
                       Mercedes, Lexus, or such, the people in other
                       luxury cars treat you much better. However, what
                       you then face is people in beaters (especially
                       mammoth trucks) being rude to you in all of the
                       ways as described above. You can draw your own
                       conclusions. From where I sit (as someone with a
                       BMW and a Lexus) everyone else seems to drive like
                       jerks and people with luxury cars drive better -
                       mostly because they don't want to total them. The
                       guy in the 1982 Tercel is the idiot going 95 mph
                       and passing on the right and all of the dents in
                       his car prove that he's none too careful.
                       \_ Let me in on a secret.  They are still assholes.
                          And yes there is a the young guy in beater car
                          group that I also pay a bit more attention to.
                          BMW drivers tend to be more assholes than Mercedes
                          and Lexuses (except for Lexus SUVs, those are the
                          absolute worst in me experiance.)
                          \_ The reason is that BMW is more of a performance
                             car. Things that you wouldn't try in another
                             car are easily done in a BMW and after
                             driving a while you know what the car can and
                             cannot do. My Lexus is an IS350, which is also
                             a performance car. Many Lexus drivers are
                             driving big sedans that do not handle well.
                             So, while it may look like BMW drivers are being
                             jerks and driving recklessly, we are actually
                             pretty safe, although we sometimes get
                             annoyed at people in cars who cannot keep up.
                              --bmw asshole
                             P.S. I find Pious, er Prius drivers to be the
                             worst and their expressions are so smug I
                             want to beat them to death with their own
                             entrails.
                             \- supposedly the prius problem is they are
                                spending too much time looking at those
                                meters that have nothing to do with driving.
                                and supposedly some also try to spend time
                                "optimizing" ... although i kida wonder on
                                short blocks if some manual transmission
                                drivers drive annoyingly slowly between
                                stops to avoud shifting ... like i'll just
                                drive at 20mph.
                                stops to avoud shifting ... like just
                                driving at 20mph.
                                BTW, i think the reason BMW have a higher
                                proportion of asshole drivers is they market
                                to supposedly "serious" drivers ... which
                                is not who say lexus markets to.
                                And i think it is worth distinguishing between
                                And a think it is worth distinguishing between
                                aggressive and asshole driving. asshole is:
                                not signaling lane changes, tailgating without
                                a good reason, like in heavy traffic, cutting
                                people off, not letting people into a lane
                                when they have been perfectly reasonable [not
                                like somebody freeriding a merge]. i drive
                                quite aggressively but i singal lane changes,
                                dont cut in front of people because i have a
                                low accelleration car. i dont t'gate unless
                                somebody is driving slowly in the fast lane,
                                in which i will do all kinds of things to them
                                except flash my lights (tgate, weave, pass
                                on right, glare at them while passing, cut
                                them off after passing, slam on brakes after
                                cutting off after passing (depends on how
                                obnoxious they were)). i do much less of this
                                when driving with other people in the car
                                because if you have to allocate part of your
                                brain to having a conversation, you should get
                                out of the fast lane and just drive ambient
                                traffic speed.
                                i dont tailgate unless somebody is driving
                                slowly in the fast lane, in which i will do
                                all kinds of things to them except flash my
                                lights (tailgate, weave, pass on right, glare
                                at them while passing, cut them off after
                                passing, slam on brakes after cutting off after
                                passing (depends on how obnoxious they were)).
                                i also dont cut in front of people because
                                i have a low accelleration car.
                             \_ Care to give an example of a thing that is
                                "easily done" in a BMW that you wouldn't
                                try in another car? I like BMWs and all but
                                the reality is that on public roads, whatever
                                maneuvers you may do are probably illegal or
                                dangerous, especially a freeway situation
                                like we're probably thinking about when we
                                think of asshole drivers. Darting into spaces
                                between cars isn't safe; you're getting into
                                people's buffer zones, and if other people
                                made sudden moves like that you could get
                                screwed.
                                \_ Merging, taking turns faster, stopping more
                                   quickly, accelerating faster (e.g. when
                                   getting on the freeway). In my old Nissan I
                                   felt afraid going more than 60 and the
                                   handling was terrible. I feel my car
                                   has helped me avoid accidents I could
                                   not have avoided in my Nissan or Honda.
                                   When you're on a winding road and a BMW
                                   whooshes by you it's not that the guy
                                   is unsafe or an asshole. It's that his
                                   car can actually do it. What annoys me
                                   is people who drive their old Datsun
                                   like it was a Porsche.
                                   \_ Merging onto freeways quickly won't
                                      generally make people think you're
                                      an asshole. It's more the tailgating,
                                      cutting off, not letting you merge etc.
                                      \_ Can't say I do any of that except
                                         maybe tailgate when there's a
                                         person driving 45 in the fast lane.
                                   \_ You haven't cited a single example of
                                      something that's safe in a BMW, but
                                      unsafe in a typical Nissan sedan.  In
                                      your example of a BMW whooshing by on a
                                      winding road, no the BMW driver is not
                                      being safe.  Any time you drive
                                      substantially faster than surrounding
                                      traffic, you are not driving safely.
                                   \_ I drive an Audi TT and do a lot of
                                      maneuvering I wouldn't have tried in our
                                      Jeep in Chile or with my dad's VW
                                      Passat station wagon.  It accelerates
                                      and brakes very precisely, holds the
                                      roads well in curves, and generally
                                      gives me more control, say, a family
                                      sedan.  I know what I can and can't do
                                      in it, and hence tend to cut my
                                      tolerances closer when, merging or
                                      slowing down behind people in front
                                      (which can be taken as tailgating.)  It
                                      gets really dangerous when some asshole
                                      becomes huffy that you passed him and
                                      starts trying to prove something.  -John
        \_ In general, I think there are limited resources in the world and
           that if we don't collectively reduce our usage of them, we risk
           environmental degredation or perhaps even collapse. So I try to
           tread lightly on the earth. There is also the notion of "Live simply
           so that other's can simply live" which is to say that my increased
           consumption of gasoline would tend to raise the price for those
           who actually need it more than me. Individually, these actions
           have no effect, but collectively they can be very strong. I don't
           actually "hate" SUVs, and I think there are rare situations when
           they are appropriate (say, you and your large family live on
           an unpaved mountain road) but I do strongly disapprove of people
           who are wasteful in general.
        \_ Not all liberals are smart.  The fundamental issues are 1.
           reduce consumption per capita, and 2. have no more than 2 children
           per household.   Car is by far least energy efficient mean of
           transportation.  If you think of it.  it's about 2000 pound vehicle
           design to transport 200 pound cargo.   this means more than 90% of
           energy is used just to carry itself.  SUV is worse; Hybrid is
           fundamentally more efficient than what we got on the table, albeit
           it is not a miracle.  I don't have issue with SUV driver per se,
           but I have serious issue with our current law, which as it is
           right now, classifies SUV as a "secondary vehicle" thus does not
           have the same emission and safety standard as regular passenger
           cars.  Again, I am a "conservative" in a sense that I belive in
           market solution.  This means I 1. oppose any relaxation on refinary
           / coal fire power plant's emission/exhaust gas 2. oppose any
           tax break on oil exploration 3. oppose any royalty-free deal that
           extract fuels out of federal land and 4. oppose any subsidies in
           so-called bio-disel 5. oppose any tariff on ethanol from Brazil
           (currently run at 18%).  By enforcing emission and environment
           standard on oil refinary and removing any subsidies from gas
           exploration, price of gas will be no longer aribitarily low.
           When gas is $8-10 dollar a gallon, people will find way to conserve
           energy consumption.  The beauty of it is that all sort of
           alternative energy/transportation innovation will mushroom. And
           people will get rid of their SUVs, 4000 pound Lexus, and other
           fuel-inefficient cars and reduce the energy consumption.
           \_ Isn't it amazing that modesty, thrift and temperance are now
              considered "liberal" values?
              \_ There was a time when compassionate toward the poor and
                 needy is considered as a Christian values too...
                 \_ Still is, the difference is, Christians want to actually
                    help, not just feel good about themselves.  Government
                    social programs often make things worse.
                    \_ Yeah, and charities have no shortage of volunteers and
                       monetary support, what with 82% of the country being
                       Christian.  Yup, good ol' Christian generosity will
                       fix all our social ills.  Fuck off.
                       \_ We've had decades of welfare programs and no shortage
                          of social ills. Fuck off. (Besides, who are these
                          people suffering from a charity shortage?) -!ppp
                    \_ If Christians really had this level of moral
                       sophistication they wouldn't need to posit a
                       'kindergarden universe' where you get spanked eternally
                       if you are bad.
                       \_ The underlying philosophy has little to do with
                          daily living and enactment of core teaching and
                          beliefs but if it makes you feel better to think
                          all Christians are childishly unsophisticated
                          regarding their moral systems then it is still
                          mostly a free country.  I prefer not to denegrate
                          an entire class of people based on their harmless
                          belief in fairy tales that tell them to be good
                          to other people.  --Atheist
                          \_ me too, but I have serious problem with
                             the fact that federal dollars can go to these
                             religious organizations, and these organizations
                             then turn around discriminate against people of
                             different faith.
2007/6/6-7 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46870 Activity:nil
6/6     Unmodified stock Prius on a race track:
        http://www.csua.org/u/iub
        Pretty realistic.
2007/6/6-10 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46868 Activity:low
6/6     Solar Prius!
        http://www.solarelectricalvehicles.com
        It also has solar modules for Highlander Hybrid, RAV4 EV, Ford Escape
        Hybrid and Dodge Sprinter Hybrid, although those panels don't look as
        cool as the Prius one.  Too bad it doesn't support Camry Hybrid.
        \_ The claim that you get 20 miles from a full day's sun seems really
           fishy.  That sounds more like the maximum distance the battery will
           propel the car, which you could charge from a home solar panel
           array, but not from the tiny set of panels on the roof of the
           car.  In fact I would be surprised that, after taking into account
           the extra weight required for the solar componentry, you would get
           much benefit at all.
           \_ It says the panel outputs 215W.  This is probably the maximum
              output when the sun is directly above.  Say 12 hours of sunshine
              is about the same as 6 hours of sunshine directly above.  Then
              the output of the panel per day is 215 * 6 = 1.29kWh.  Let's say
              it takes 20 minutes to drive 20 miles.  For the claim to be true,
              the power consumption needs to be below 1.29 / (20/60) = 3.87kW,
              or 5.2hp.  So the question becomes: does it take 5.2hp to propel
              a Prius at 60mph?  I don't know the answer.  If someone knows
              how much energy the ICE can generate from one gallon of gasoline,
              one can calculate the required horsepower from the highway MPG
              rating. -- OP
              how much kinetic energy the ICE can generate from one gallon of
              gasoline, one can calculate the required horsepower from the
              highway MPG rating. -- OP
              \_ Your calculations neglect to take into count that the power
                 consumption of driving, especially in a city, is hardly
                 constant.  Maybe for non-traffic highway driving.  However
                 5hp for continuous-speed highway driving is not unreasonable.
                 \_ But for the Prius, city driving uses less energy per mile
                    on avertage than highway driving.  So I was using highway
                    condition in the calculation as the worse case of the two.
                    on average than highway driving.  So I was using highway
                    condition as the worse case of the two. -- OP
        \_ Why don't they also put a panel over the front hood?  That'll
           increase the output by about 50%.  Do solar panels die when heated
           by the engine below?
2007/5/23-26 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46731 Activity:moderate
5/23    "SAN FRANCISCO - Calling a cab with an environmental conscience"
        http://www.csua.org/u/ir7 (SFGate.com)
        41.4mpg for Prius cab vs. 12mpg for Crown Victoria cab.
        \_ How much trunk space?
           \_ I looked at a Prius in a parking lot, and it looks like it
              can't even fit one big suitcase.  But then most cab passengers
              in big cities don't carry luggage.  So I guess a driver is still
              better off if he can save on gas most of the time, and
              occasionally has to pass on some passengers because of their
              luggage.
        \_ There are also a bunch of Ford Escape hybrid taxis around the city.
           The biggest trouble with hybrid vehicles in a dense urban
           environment is their silence when running without the IC engine
           engaged.  Several times I've been nearly hit because I didn't
           hear a hybrid moving in my direction.
           \_ Weren't you taught to look both ways before crossing the
              street??
              \_ Sure, but that doesn't work as well as you'd like in a
                 crowded urban environment with crazy drivers, hostile bikers,
                 oddly angled 5 way intersections, and poorly timed traffic
                 lights.
                 \_ Which is even more of a reason not to depend on your ears.
                 \_ Bicycles are silent also.
                 \_ Aside: Some studies have shown that the most dangerous
                    place for a crosswalk is at a vehicular intersection--
                    exactly where we always put them.  If crosswalks were
                    mid-block, they'd be much safer.  -tom
                    \_ That will make traffic more congested (becasue vehicles
                       will stop and intersections and mid-block), hence
                       producing more mad drivers.
                       \_ uh, yeah, and let's get rid of all those stop signs
                          and traffic lights while we're at it.  -tom
                          \_ That's how freeway intersections work.  It's just
                             too expensive to do it for local intersections.
                             \_ and of course no one ever gets angry at
                                freeway intersections.  -tom
                       \_ Public Policy should always have as its top
                          priority "must not produce any more mad drivers."
           \_ That's called "Stealth Mode" in the Hybrid Humvee.
              http://evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html
2007/5/17-19 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46679 Activity:moderate
5/17    GTI wanting person, have you looked at the honda fit?
        \_ How in the world does the focus go from GTI to Fit?  A Mini
           Cooper S, Mazdaspeed3, Impreza WRX, etc. would make more
           sense.  Golf->Fit makes some sense, too, but not GTI->Fit.
           Nothing wrong with Fit, of course.  I have a friend who
           went from Jetta VR6 to Fit.  His only problem is that it's
           a bit weak.  I blame his unwillingness to drive manual.
           \_ I know the fit's a little underpowered but it seems like
              it is still a fun car to drive, and it is about the same
              size as the mini, costs a lot less, and has better cargo
              potential thanks to well designed seats.  Shrug.  Seems like
              an interesting car in the small hatchback category.
        \_ small cars are dangerous. Get the Accord, you can't go wrong.
           \_ Camry Hybrid.
         \_ Spoken like a true american.
2007/4/20-24 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46391 Activity:kinda low
4/20    Any Toyota hybrid owners here?  What's the real-world gas mileage that
        you're getting (not the advertised one) for
        Highlander hybrid:
        Camry hybrid:
        Prius: 47.5 (80% highway, 20% local)
        (On a related note the gas mileage reported on the Multi-Function
        Display on my 2004 Sienna (not a hybrid, obviously) is consistently
        2-3mpg higher than my hand-calculated value.)
        \_ Hybrids are stupid, clean diesel is where it's at. Diesel gives
           great mileage in all driving patterns and doesn't require expensive
           heavy batteries.
           \_ Hybrid and diesel are not mutually exclusive technologies,
              stupid.
              \_ And? Shithead.
                 \_ Diesel hybrid will give better gas mileage than diesel-
                    only.
                    \_ Where do I buy that? Yes.
                       \_ I said "will".
                       \_ Europe.
2007/4/5-7 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46205 Activity:moderate
4/5     link:csua.org/u/ie4
        mp3 of interview with the woman in the minivan in the critical mass
        incident (with Armstrong & Getty).  Interview starts at 12 minutes in.
        Sounds like people in Critical Mass caused the problem.  I find her
        believable. -emarkp
        (I should add A&G are far more reasonable than most people I hear on
        radio, they're not kool-aid drinkers, etc.  And their show is liberally
        sprinkled with humor.)
        \_ She drove all the way from Hayward in a premeditated effort to
           assault and attempt to kill innocent people.  Only the brave and
           noble efforts of a handful of people at peril of losing their very
           lives stopped this mad woman before she could bring her nefarious
           plot to it's ultimate and deadly conclusion!
           \_ Yup, I'm sure planting a kid's birthday celebration to coincide
              with the Critical Mass day and time, and bringing along another
              kid and three kids from other families, was part of her planning.
              \_ ob sarcasm lost upon thee
                 \_ I *thought* I piled it on thick enough that no one could
                    possibly take it at face value.  My mistake.
        \_ So let's see if I have this sequence of events right:
           Van driver gets stopped by a small group of bicyclists, who
           are illegally blocking traffic. Van driver decides she is not
           going to wait 30 seconds and drives around bicyclist and weaves
           back and forth through cyclists. Cyclists get mad and block her
           way, probably banging their hands on the sides of her car. She
           freaks out and deliberately rams a bicyclist blocking her way.
           At this point, cyclists swarm her car and smash her window.
           Laws broken by cyclists: malicious mischief, failure to yield
           Laws broken by car driver: assault with a deadly weapon, attempted
           murder.
           Hard to side with the felon in this case.
           \_ That's "a" version of events.  It wouldn't fly in a court room
              but good effort.
              \_ Don't be so sure of yourself. If the victim in this case
                 steps forward, I bet the DA will file charges.
           \_ The cops were useless:
              '"We sit there and they just go right through the red lights,"
              Sgt. Callejas said. "What else can we do? Arrest one rider while
              500 keep going?"'
              \_ The answer to his question is YES. Arrest one, charge him/her,
                 and make it clear that breaking the law is breaking the law
                 even when done as a part of civil disobedience. Do this enough
                 times and the economic penalties will add up. --erikred
                 \_ right, just like they should arrest every driver speeding
                    on the freeway.  -tom
                    \_ I didn't think even Tom could equate running a red
                       right or a Stop sign with speeding by 5-10 miles.
                       We're not talking about not doing a hand signal on
                       turn. Running lights/stops is a real hazard.  Tom,
                       are you disingenuous or stupid?
                       \_ You think it would be safer to have a dozen different
                          Critical Mass groups because they got split up by
                          lights?  The cops don't think that.
                          Running stop signs is not any more of a hazard than
                          speeding is; in both cases, it depends on the
                          context.  -tom
                          \_ I think it would be safer if CM followed the laws.
                             Kind of a weird concept, I know.  And in both the
                             case of speeding and running red lights/signs, I
                             desire and expect the cops to ticket people and
                             arrest the more excessive cases for all vehicles
                             be they cars, bikes, suvs, wheel chairs, flying
                             saucers dropping spaghetti or anything else.  The
                             law already recognises the context by assigning
                             different levels of fines and other punishments
                             for different transgressions.  It does not account
                             for context by simply ignoring transgressions.
                             Obviously there are corner cases such as the
                             people doing 120+ fleeing from Mount St. Helens
                             eruption, but I haven't heard of any active
                             volcanos in this region.  ;-)
                             \_ speaking of flying saucers, what planet are
                                you living on?  -tom
                             \_ obflyingcarrant http://csua.com/?entry=38770
                    \_ No, but if I zoom past a cop on the highway I expect
                       to get pulled over and nailed with a ticket for a few
                       hundred bucks and a visit to traffic school.   Just
                       because there are a lot of people breaking the law at
                       once is no reason to ignore it.  It is a basic safety
                       issue.  In this case it lead to a smashed van, scared
                       kids, and bad bike PR.  It could have been a lot worse.
                       I want to know that if the bikers were justified and we
                       know they were only stopped by the cops how much further
                       could they have gone and still been justified in your
                       mind?  Since the driver is claimed to be an attempted
                       killer, wouldn't punching her out be justified?  How
                       about nabbing the kids on the spot since she's
                       obviously an unfit parent/guardian?  How about flat out
                       murder in self defense leaving her dead on the spot?
                       Where is the line?  (I'll answer since I was being
                       rhetorical).  The answer is they already crossed the
                       line going as far as they did.  Once you open the door
                       to vigilante (in)justice you open a Pandora's Box you
                       can never close again.
                    \_ No, just like they should arrest every driver who runs
                       a red light or stop sign. --erikred
           \_ You didn't listen apparently.  She was waved through by police
              officers, and as she was in the intersection she was swarmed by
              bicyclists.  She's moving slowly, intentionally remaining slow so
              they could avoid her.  They're riding past, and some are circling
              her.  Then one of them rams her vehicle (she says it looked
              intentional) and it escalates from there, including people
              climbing in top of the vehicle, breaking her back window, etc.
              -emarkp
              \_ You forgot the part where she rammed a bike, pinning it
                 underneath her car. -ausman
                 \_ Where does this pinning quote come from?  I must have
                    missed it.
                 \_ I simply don't believe that claim.  She says it never
                    happened, and I have to wonder where the bike went.  If my
                    bike were pinned under the car, I certainly wouldn't have
                    gone away without filing a report with the police. -emarkp
                    \_ Well, and how would you have ridden off on it?  A wheel
                       or a pedal would almost certainly bend or break.
                    \_ http://www.csua.org/u/ie1 Multiple witnesses, most
                       of whom were not directly involved in the incident,
                       trump one person who has every motivation to lie
                       about her participation. -ausman
                       \_ I don't see "multiple witnesses" on that blog link. I
                          see a blogger speculating "Try this version..."
                          You don't appear to have listened to the interview.
                          There were police at the scene from the beginning,
                          and they don't corroborate this. -emarkp
                          \_ Sorry, wrong link:
                             http://www.csua.org/u/ie6 -ausman
                             \_ I get the sense that this is Bad Driver
                                Syndrome.  You're in a car.  A few thousand
                                pounds of metal.  If there are pedestrians
                                or bicyclists doing things around you,
                                legal or illegal, you are only in control
                                of your car.  Sounds like the best thing
                                would have been for her to stop and wait
                                for all others to clear before moving.
                                You don't push your car through any
                                group unless someone's got a gun in your
                                face. --scotsman
                             \_ Sorry, I feel the woman and the cops are more
                                credible.  Oh, and I love how the video you
                                link to cuts off before the woman can state
                                her case. -emarkp
                                \_ Where do you see a quote from "the cops"?
                                   So far they have been mum. -ausman
                                   \_ http://csua.org/u/idl
                                      (the first article I posted)  I thought I
                                      heard that police arrived on the scene at
                                      some point during the altercation and
                                      didn't do anything about it, though I
                                      can't find any link to back that up at
                                      the moment, so I may be wrong.  -emarkp
                                      \_ The policeman does say that he
                                         apologized to Ferrando, but does
                                         not testify one way or another to
                                         the facts surrounding the incident.
                                         Though I have to admit, him feeling
                                         the need to apologize is pretty
                                         damning. -ausman
                          \_ It is funny that this is exactly the kind of
                             vigilante justice that emarkp is advocating down
                             below in the gun control debate.  For the record:
                             I have never ridden in SF Critical Mass and
                             only a couple of times in Berkeley (which is
                             a much different vibe anyway).  I'm not a
                             supporter of Critical Mass.  But I do think that
                             this woman was likely acting like an asshole
                             (possibly due to hysteria, possibly due to just
                             being an asshole), put the lives of others in
                             danger, and in some sense, got what she deserved.
                             The police calling "no foul" is probably the
                             right thing to do.  Oh, and Matier and Ross
                             are unscrupulous hacks.  -tom
                             \_ Actually, no it's the opposite.  I believe the
                                driver had the right to fire in self-defense.
                                -emarkp
                                \_ And the bikes believed they had the right
                                   to attack in self-defense.  Of course, if
                                   everyone were packing heat, they'd always
                                   consult with emarkp before trying to
                                   shoot anyone.  -tom
                                   \_ I think you're an idiot tom, and please
                                      stop putting words in my mouth.  The
                                      woman was surrounded by a mob which was
                                      attacking her vehicle.  I simply don't
                                      believe the complaint that any bicycle
                                      went under the wheels, and if she'd had a
                                      gun and used it, I wouldn't have any
                                      complaints.
                                      By the way tom, if you're so against
                                      vigilante violence, why haven't you
                                      condemned the cyclists?  -emarkp
                                      \_ I don't think it's right that they
                                         broke her window.  I don't think it's
                                         right that she ran into a bike and
                                         kept trying to drive through more.
                                          -tom
                        \_ More witnesses: http://www.csua.org/u/ieb
                           "McCarthy [driver] said she was intimidated by
                            police when she tried to file a hit-and-run report."
                            police when she tried to file a hit-and-run
                            report."
                            Now that sounds like a reliable witness...
                    \_ "Witnesses also say that the bicyclist who was hit
                       wanted to file a police report, but was told by the
                       officers that the only way to do so would be if they
                       called an ambulance for him, which he would have to
                       pay for."
                       http://www.csua.org/u/iec (SFBG)
          \_ Where did you get "a small group of bicyclists?"
        \_ Well, A&G are right about one thing: the "Communist" City Council
           is not going to outlaw critical mass. The vast majority of San
           Franciscans are sick and tired of being daily bullied, threatened
           and intimidated by automobile drivers. And the new Transit
           Effectiveness Project is going to make it even more expensive
           and difficult to drive in San Francisco. Which is a good thing.
           \_ Scare cyclists as you drive every day.  Weave toward them,
              dont give them room etc.  Slow down in front of them when
              they run Stop signs.
           \_ I worked in the financial district and soma for years.  The worst
              that ever happened was a pickup honking at me while I was rolling
              an E450 across the street.  Maybe this intimidation occurs in
              some other parts of the city?  (No, I didn't drive in so I was
              always on foot where ever I went).
              \_  http://www.csua.org/u/ie8
                  http://http://www.csua.org/u/ie7
                  http://http://www.csua.org/u/iea
                  http://http://www.csua.org/u/ie9
2007/3/23-27 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:46069 Activity:nil
3/23    Another type of hybrid car: engine + compressed air:
        http://www.theaircar.com
2007/3/1-3 [Reference/Tax, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45849 Activity:nil
3/1     If you bought a Prius in 2006 don't forget to subtract $3150
        for the credit! Get all the forms and info here:
        http://www.toyota.com/prius/tax.html#fedtaxdeductions
2007/2/23-27 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45805 Activity:moderate
2/23    Oops. Hybrid cars don't get the MPG we thought they did
        http://news.google.com/news?q=hybrid+mpg
        \_ Why don't you link to an article instead of a search?
           \_ Choose your news source.  That way I won't link to an article and
              have one group say "we don't accept that news source", then link
              to another and have a different group say the same thing.
        \_ Nor do the non-hybrid cars.  Both hybrids and non-hybrids were
           tested with the same outdated procedures.
           \_ I've gotten very close to the EPA ratings with my Toyota
              Corolla (2003).  --PeterM
              \_ My Lexus IS350 gets better than advertised mileage. In
                 fact, with a mix of street and freeway driving Toyota
                 is able to squeeze out 30+ MPG from a 300 HP V6 without
                 needing to screw with hybrid technology.
              \_ My 1996 Jeep Cherokee gets 25mpg highway on long streches of
                 freeway (I-5 Stockton <--> LA, after midnight), while the EPA
                 highway estimate is 22mpg.  But I only go 65mph and that's
                 not how most people drive.  -- PP
           \_ My last 3 cars were all within 1-2 mpg of the ratings.  I
              commuted 60-90 minutes each way to the valley for a few years.
              In heavy traffic, light traffic, off hours, speeding, rain and
              shine, it was pretty accurate over time.
        \_ Seriously, is this what you folks do with your spare time? -dans
           \_ Classic: posting on a geek message board how other people waste
              their spare time on geeky stuff.
              \_ I'd respond to this, but your head would probably due to a
                 recursive post-modernist stack overflow. -dans
                 \_ Wow, you are so cool!  Completely missed the point as
                    expected.  But cool, cool, cool!  And smart!  Way smart!
                    \_ Uh huh. -dans
2007/2/12-15 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45715 Activity:nil
2/12    MOTD ballistics experts, scroll down and read about dudes in
        Oakland in a moving car hitting a van with a rifle.
        I just don't believe it.
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/12
        BAGOEO34AS1.DTL
        http://tinyurl.com/2ssa7t
        \_ I'm no expert, but it doesn't actually say the car or the
           van were moving when the rifle was fired, although it does
           imply that.  Furthermore, on the first incedent, it only says
           "at least 2 shots were fired," which is the number of holes
           in the van.  Many more shots may have been fired, it doesn't
           say how close the cars were, and the van may have been
           stopped at a light or something.  So, insufficent data.
        \_ Is it really that hard to do this? A friend of mine got a bullet
           in her car while driving down the 105 in LA. The shooter was
           aiming at another car though and missed and hit her bumper.
        \_ I grew up on a farm, which meant spending a lot of time
           shooting things with guns, some moving, some not, sometimes
           while both I and the target were moving.  The fact that a few
           shots in the story found their mark doesn't surprise me.
           shots in the story found their mark doesn't surprise me.-lewis
           \ story sdounds totally crazy. matier&ross are tools.
             \_ They sound like tools.  But separately, there's no
                reason why you can't hit a van with a while
                either or both are moving.
2007/1/24-28 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45580 Activity:nil
1/23    Chevy's make your own Tahoe commercial not working out as planned:
          http://preview.tinyurl.com/phj6h (autoblog.com)
        Examples:
          http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fp25KotKu9c
          http://youtube.com/watch?v=XA6dLFrAFlI
          http://youtube.com/watch?v=4oNedC3j0e4
          http://youtube.com/watch?v=X_nwNOEfBTs
        \_ OLD.
2007/1/24 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45576 Activity:moderate
1/23    User generated Chevy Tahoe commercial:
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fp25KotKu9c
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=XA6dLFrAFlI
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=4oNedC3j0e4
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=X_nwNOEfBTs
        http://www.autoblog.com/2006/03/31/chevys-make-your-own-tahoe-commercial-not-exactly-going-as-pl
2006/12/18-19 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45463 Activity:high
12/17   http://picasaweb.google.com/fcorrado/HowDidThisHappen
        Prius drivers are stupid.
        \_ "The More You Drive, The Less Intelligent You Are".
           \_ Plate of shrimp.
           \_ I actually have to agree with this statement. People obsessed
              about cars tend to have lower IQ.
              \_ What study demonstrated that 'fact'?
        \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Revised_petrol_use_urban_density.JPG
           Look at density of Phoenix (1180) and Houston (1120). They have
           to drive more than say, New York. Everyone knows that the average
           combined IQ Phoenix and Houston is still lower than a New York.
           Let's not even get into the discussion of Europeans vs. Americans
           because that's just too obvious.             -European
           \_ "Let's not even get into" trolling the motd with so few people
              around to play.  As you say, "Everyone knows ... that's just
              too obvious".
           \_ I think it's more interesting to compare the Australian cities
              with LA and New York.  More area per person AND fewer gallons
              per person for Australian cities.  Actually, even LA does better
              than NY.  I thought NY has good public transit systems while LA
              has bad ones.
2006/11/29-12/7 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45394 Activity:nil
11/28   http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/11/27/kbb_best_resale_value/index.html
        Toyota Prius and Honda Civic get the best resale values according
        to Kelly Blue Book        -proud owner of both cars (yes I'm smart)
           \_ Kelley
2006/11/4-6 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45160 Activity:kinda low
11/04   Does anyone know why the new 4 cyl non-hybrid Accord (which really
        kicks ass by the way) sounds very different than all the Accords
        before that? I've had 3 Accords in the past and all of them have
        the distinctive engine start sound lasts 300-400ms at a pretty
        high pitch (chichichichichi-vrooom). However when I startup a 2006
        Accord, the crank sound has a much lower pitch and lasts about 1
        sec to 1.5 sec (didoo-didoo-didoo-didoo-didoo-didoo-didoo-
        vroooOOOOOOOOMMMMMmmmmmm....) It doesn't startup like any of
        the old Accords. What's up?
        \_ Different starter apparently. Is that an issue?
           \_ Not really. I'm used to hearing the distinctive Accord sound
              and now the new Accord engine sounds like any other engine
              out there, and I miss it dearly. Oh well.
              \_ "Any other engine"? They all have unique sounds. You just
                 don't recognize them, because you owned an Accord. My
                 Lexus has a 'Toyota' sound. My BMW has a 'BMW' sound. So
                 now Accord has a new sound. So what? I owned an Accord
                 for 11 years and I know the sound. Why should anyone care
                 that it changed?
                 \_ Like I said it does NOT matter I just
                    miss it for sentimental reasons, you
                    dumb fuck.
                    \_ Whoa there. Be patient with dim wits.
                    \_ Yeah. So why the fuck should *WE* care and why
                       do you want to know *WHY* it sounds different if
                       it doesn't matter.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45093 Activity:nil
11/01   http://tinyurl.com/yyaqvb (money.cnn.com)
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ Isn't the RAV4/CRV Honda's and Toyota's way of charging idiots
              more money for a Civic/Corolla?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45092 Activity:high 93%like:45087
11/01   http://tinyurl.com/yyaqvb (money.cnn.com)
        Gas price down, SUV sales back. Yay!
        \_ Oh no!
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45087 Activity:nil 93%like:45092
11/1    http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/01/magazines/fortune/pluggedin_taylor_SUVsales.fortune
        Gas price down, SUV sales back. Yay!
2006/10/26-29 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44995 Activity:kinda low
10/26   Schwartzenegger grants DMV additional stickers, allowing up to
        10K hybrid vehicles to hog up the carpool lane.
        \_ Hogging?  Isn't the point of the CP lane to reduce gas consumption?
           It seems the right place for a vehicle with lower consumption.  I
           don't own one, I drive a gas hog V8, but I don't have a problem
           with single passenger hybrids in the CP lane.
           \_ 2-3 people in a car doubles to triples the fuel efficiency of
              the car...  hybrid w/ one person (which is the only reason to
              have the sticket) may not compete with that (especially if it's
              2-3 people in a non-gas-guzzler)
           \_ I thought it was supposed to reduce congestion. Besides hybrids
              are most efficient in stop and go, so the space should be made
              available to non-hybrid cars that need to keep moving.
              \_ Agree, it's for congestion.
                 \_ The point of HOV lanes is to encourage carpooling. More
                    carpooling improves both congestion and per capita fuel
                    expenditure, but HOV lanes themselves increase congestion
                    by reducing the number of lanes available overall (since
                    less than 1/4 of cars qualify, so more than 3/4 of all cars
                    must use only 3 of 4 lanes). I think Varaiya did some
                    research into this recently.
        \_ US transportation policy is completely inane.  We should
           double or triple the number of highway lanes.
           This would save billions in man hours wasted sitting in traffic,
           reduce emmission, save gas, and generally result in a greatly
           improved quality of life.
                    research into this recently. -gm
                    \_ It improves fuel expenditure, but the point of it
                       is/was to relieve congestion via carpooling. The
                       mileage your vehicle gets was never part of the
                       equation.
                    \_ Carpool lanes carry much more traffic than other
                       lanes, as long as you don't do stupid things like
                       allow hybrids to use them.  (But mainly, carpool
                       lanes are a scam to get semi-eco-conscious taxpayers
                       to approve more road construction; carpool lane
                       constraints are always loosened after the bill/bond
                       passes).  -tom
                       \_ Varaiya's research: link:csua.org/u/hbd
                          Conclusions include an increase in overall congestion
                          and no significant increase in throughput of people
                          (which is what I assume you mean by "more traffic").
                          I find some of the arguments made in the paper to
                          be unconvincing (in particular, the paper does not
                          address the issue of reduced demand outside HOV hours)
                          but I'm inclined to believe that the conclusions are
                          more or less correct. I'd be interested to see data
                          to the contrary if you have any. -gm
                          address the issue of reduced demand outside HOV
                          hours) but I'm inclined to believe that the
                          conclusions are more or less correct. I'd be
                          interested to see data to the contrary if you have
                          any. -gm
                          \_ The issue you mention is a pretty significant one;
                             the primary finding of the paper is that traffic
                             moves faster from 7-9 PM than it does from 4-7 PM,
                             and there's an implicit assumption that the
                             traffic would move at the 7-9 PM speed if the
                             HOV lane didn't exist.  I think that's fairly
                             ridiculous.  -tom
                       \_ A couple years ago CalTrans said more people passed
                          thru the carpool lanes on the left and right of the
                          west-bound Bay Bridge approach during commute hours
                          every day than that on all the other 14 toll lanes
                          combined.
           \_ I guess you could argue the carpool lane rules reward good
              behavior, whether it is carpooling or driving a fuel efficient
              vehicle.
              \_ Buying a new hybrid car in order to use the carpool lane is
                 wasteful. And why reward hybrids and not any car getting
                 above some mpg value? This is idiotic and so are you.
                 \_ I can think of some reasons, and so can you if you bother
                    to think about it, but I agree that the reasons are
                    mostly stupid.
2006/10/13-14 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44814 Activity:low
10/13   http://csua.org/u/h74 (AP via http://washingtonpost.com)
        Recent gasoline price drops are like a huge tax cut that give consumers
        nearly $100 billion to spend on other items.  Believes Q3 GDP grew by
        1.8%, but predicts 2.5% rebound for Q4.
        "Wage growth is improving, the stock market is doing well and gasoline
        prices are down. All of this is very good news for the consumer."
        -Global Insight chief economist
        \_ You know what would be an actual tax cut? Eliminate all payroll
           taxes and instead tax on the basis of pollution. Sure, your gas
           prices would go up, but we'd still be paying less than the Europeans
           and working class families would have enough money to afford health
           insurance.
           \_ And birdies would sing everywhere!
           \_ the problem with this is it encourages illicit pollution.  e.g.
              Tax on garbage collection => illegal dumping
              \_ Imagine the amount of monitoring we could do with all the
                 resources shifted from the IRS. Think of the fines we could
                 collect!
2006/9/26-27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44540 Activity:kinda low
9/26    CA legislature: "Do as I say, not as I do."
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/26/CARS.TMP
        \_ "I would admit that I should get a better mileage car," Chan said.
           "But I mainly looked at the crash-test factors. I drive every day
           from Oakland to Sacramento, and I see these horrific accidents on
           I-80."
           \_ Argh.  I wish they'd roll accident _avoidance_ into crash safety
              numbers.
        \_ Who cares what they drive? I'm surprised more of them are not
           driving far more expensive cars (like MBs).
2006/9/1-5 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44236 Activity:nil
9/1     Diesel > Hybrids >>> Hydrogen
        http://www.dailyreckoning.com/LP/CarOfTheFurture.html
        \_ "On an open road, the conventional engine actually gets better gas
           mileage. When you look at the Prius's true mileage, there are
           plenty of conventional vehicles that do as well or better."
           \_ are you stupid or something?  Hybrid is best at stop-n-go
              traffic where accelearation/deceleration is frequent.  For that
              purpose alone, hybrid is worth the investment.
              *FURTHER*  great thing about hybrid is that it's not an
              exclusive technology.  we could easily come up with a
              electric / diesel hybrid that take advantage of both world.
              By the way, the reasons why GM and rest hyped about hydrogen
              are:  1.  it is decades away so it's a good PR stunt to prentent
              they are doing SOMETHING about the environment.  2. guess where
              the hydrogen going to come from?  you bet, fossil fuel.  So,
              by going with hydrogen, car makers won't break the centry-old
              alliance with the petroleum industry.
              \_ hybrids don't break that either. what would you have them do?
                 \_ if you know anything about this subject, you will know that
                    it is impossible to break dependency on fossil fuel.
                    Instead of shooting for an impossible dream, one need to
                    embrace incremental improvement on efficiency.
              \_ momma always said stupid is as stupid does
        \_ Do hybrids have a giant battery similar to pure electrics?  Battery
           disposal is going to be a huge problem later.
        \_ Uh, diesel and hybrids aren't mutually exclusive (and
           "future" has only one "r").
2006/9/1-3 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44226 Activity:kinda low
8/31    7/25 bought my Prius
        8/9 Got my license plate number, sent $8.00 application
        8/30 Got my actual license plate
        8/31 Got my carpool stickers
        I can carpool now. I have special privileges for about a year.
        I am so cool!!!!!!              -Prius owner asking to be flamed
        \_ Thanks for overpaying for your car purchase.  That is exactly the
           sort of thing the economy needs to stay revved up.  You, sir, are
           a great American!
           \_ I'm a consultant making well over 6 digits and the time I saved
              on the carpool lane is well worth it, although I have to admit
              that at times the carpool lane is just as slow as the other
              lanes.
           \_ Supply and demand.
              \_ What about it?
                 \_ There was no overpaying.
        \_ Do not be too proud of this technological marvel that you have
           purchased, zero emissions are insignificant when confronted w/
           an H2 in a head on collision.
           \_ Is the Prius a zero-emission vehicle?
                \_ Intermittently it is
2006/8/17-19 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44055 Activity:moderate
8/16    What car did you drive before, what car do you drive now, and what
        car do you plan to buy in the future? Left wing communist bikers like
        tom and lafe need not respond. Thanks.
        \_ So if I don't live the way you live, I'm a communist?  This sounds
           a bit like "no free speech for fascists".  "If you don't like the
           fact that your money is taken from you by force and spent on
           other people's transportation infrastructure and corporate
           subsidies for shitty American car companies than *you're* the
           left wing totalitarian!"  Right.  -lafe
           \_ I don't like that my money is taken from me by force and spent on
              a lot of things that benefit other people but not me.  Is that
              ok for a !bike rider?
           \_ Actually, tom is a left-wing communist biker.  He earns all of
              those monikers individually.
              \_  Then don't bring my name into it, fuckwit.  I almost
                  certainly have more familiarity with and hatred of communism
                  than you do.  It's funny how any single mention of "nazi"
                  and poeple on the motd start screaming "GODWIN!!!", but you
                  can go associating people with the other most loathesome
                  ideology in history and aparently it's ok.   You can
                  call me a misanthrope, a psycho foaming at the mouth
                  anti-car wingnut, an asshole, a spaz, or an idealist, but
                  don't FUCKING call me a communist.  -lafe
                  don't FUCKING call me a Yalie.  -lafe
                  \_ Kind of unrelated, but I don't think the curse word
                     helps in this case. -jrleek
                     \_ I think it's his way of starting an anti-communist
                        motd Godwin's law thing.
        \_ Bike, bike, bike. Get over it. -!tom|lafe
         \_ Motorcycle, subcompact, subcompact+bike
        \_ International Travelall (Think 1960's equivalent to Suburban),
           Toyota Celica, Jeep Cherokee.  future:  WHERE IS MY  FLYING CAR??
           THEY SAID THERE'D BE FLYING CARS!! -EricM (oh yeah, and RIDE BIKE!!)
           \_ I'll just repost my flying car post rather than re-write it:
              http://www.csua.com/?entry=38770
        \_ 1987 Ford Escort Pony (1991-1992), 1984 Jeep Cherokee Chief (1992-
           1996), 1996 Jeep Cherokee Classic (1996-present), 2004 Toyota
           Sienna LE (2004-present).
        \_ 1994 Renault Safrane 2.2, 1998 Audi TT 1.8 & Jeep Wrangler, no
           fucking clue what I'll buy next but it won't be anything even
           remotely sensible.  -John
        \_ 1978 Datsun "babe magnet" 510 pea green station wagon, 1988 Honda
           Civic Hatchback, 2000 Mercedes E320, in the future? My current car
           should be able to last to the end of the gasoline crisis when I
           will be riding bike instead.
        \_ 1987 Ford LTD, 2004 WRX Wagon, Tango T100  --dbushong
        \_ 1986 Pontiac Something (sold at 18,000 miles, became a
                lemon car after just 1 year).
           1988 Toyota Camry (gave to my mom, better than Pontiac, still
                a piece of shit IMHO)
           I hated these cars until one day, I drove a Honda Accord, and
           the rest became history:
           1987 Honda Accord Lxi (sold at 170,000 miles in 98. Loved it)
           1998 Honda Accord LX  (still own ~140,000 miles and going. Love it)
           2006 Honda Accord LX  (~200 miles. Love it)
           BTW all the cars were purchased new. If I need to go to my best
           friend's wedding, drive the pregnant wife to the hospital, get to
           a job interview on time, I will not go into any car except the
           Accord. I've had many different cars in my life and the Accords
           were there for me during the worst times. Sure, my job sucked
           and my personal life was a total fuck up, but the Accord was
           always there for me. Nothing is more reliable than the Accord.
        \_ 1996 Lincoln Continental, 2003 Subaru Outback Wagon, probably an
           Outback Wagon or WRX Wagon (unless I win the lotto, in which case
           my next car will be a DB5).
        \_ 1995 Chevy Camaro, 1998-present; next will be a 2009 Camaro (unless
           they suck, like the new GTOs).
        \_ Hyundai Accordion (my first car so far)
        \_ 98-05 Ford Taurus (105k), 05-present Honda Accord Hybrid (30k so
           far).  I have no idea what I'll be driving when it's time to
           retire the Accord, but most likely another sedan.
        \_ 1970 Dodge Dart in high school, then a VW Rabbit in college,
           then a Ducati motorcycle. Now I ride the bus.
2006/8/15-17 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44015 Activity:kinda low
8/15    So I just had an interesting discussion with my one and only
        Republican acquaintance regarding my new Prius. He is perplexed as to
        why I bought an overpriced, under-horsepowered Prius when I could have
        afford a Lexus GS300 which is quieter, has a much smoother ride, a
        much better stereo system, and a LOT more horsepower. Besides, it's
        not like I couldn't afford gasoline. I explained to him that it's
        like planting a tree, I'm reducing oil dependency by 40% relative to
        my old vehicle which is good for everyone in the long term. He
        rolled off his eyes and said "You bought the car because you really
        care about the environment? Yeah whatever." I hope most Republicans
        are as insensitive and stupid as this person, because that is just
        plain sad.
        \_ With longer ranged missiles for the next round of unprovoked
           strikes into Israel.
        \_ In a sense he's correct.  The tragedy of the commons and the
           desire for the majority to maximize consumption means that if
           enough Priuses are bought to actually lower oil prices, more
           Hummers/SUVs will be bought to offset the advantages.  Even if
           the United States consumes less other nations will just consume
           more, thanks to the desire by almost every nation to maximize
           resource consumption because of the reigning economic paradigm
           of eternal maximum growth.  To summarize, we're going to burn
           up every drop of oil, lump of coal, cord of wood, etc., until
           the Earth is a hellish wasteland incapable of supporting life.
           If I'm lucky I won't live to see that.
           \_ We are, but we need to be ready for the day that oil isn't
              feasable.  Technology has recently gotten to the point
              where other energy sources are cost effective (if just
              barely).  Early adopters exist.  Prius users are just that
              for hybrid tech.
                \_ Technology is part of the problem, more technology means
                   more energy & resource problems.
                   \_ Sex is part of the problem, more sex means more people
                      problems.  But masturbation ... the best!
              \_ Well hybrids aren't "other energy sources" they just
                 improve fuel efficiency. For many years now you could
                 buy small cars that were a lot more fuel efficient than the
                 average. And there are other things like direct injection
                 and diesels that can help (but we have high sulfur fuels
                 here in the US which makes some of these techs hard to use).
                 Basically I don't see the big deal with hybrids. They don't
                 really solve a problem. If they are cost-effective wrt to
                 fuel costs then fine, but I wouldn't pretend that buying
                 one is saving the planet.
                 \_ Then what "other engrgy sources" would solve the problem?
                    \_ Nukular
                       \_ Actually we might be close to "peak Uranium" as well
                          prices have been rising quickly in the last few
                          years, and breeders and thorium reactors are not
                          yet commercially viable.
                          \_ No they're just not politically viable; too easy
                             to make weapons grade fissionables with them.
                          \_ and oh puhleeze, uranium is so common they're
                             using it instead of lead in military ammunition.
                             \_ wikipedia: depleted uranium -- that's what
                                they use in 'military ammunition'
                                they use in 'military ammunition', ie, you
                                clearly don't know what you're talking about.
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
                       \_ Why do you hate Jimmy Carter?
                \_ Technology is part of the problem, more technology means
                   more energy & resource problems.
                   \_ Sex is part of the problem, more sex means more people
                      problems.  But masturbation ... the best!
                       \_ Nukular energy will run out also.
                          \_ Not in the lifetime of anyone who cares.
                    \_ Well yeah not fossil fuels. Nukes, wind, tides, solar,
                       geothermal, blah blah... better mpg is a start. But the
                       Prius is also designed for efficiency besides being a
                       hybrid and sacrifices some practicality. Also hybrids
                       they say cost more energy to produce. So maybe a
                       conventional tech economy car would be better. But
                       then you couldn't flaunt your eco hipness. Do you also
                       wear those colored charity bracelets?
                        \_ VW Lupo already gets 78 MPG without any fancy
                           hybrid tech but it's a subcompact death trap.
                           \_ Are all subcompacts == death traps in your book
                              or the Lupo in particular? They also have a Polo
                              TDI that seems to get 52 mpg with decent torque.
                       \_ URL for hybrids costing more energy to produce
                          please?  Thx.
                          \_ Well, they cost "more" to produce in general,
                          \_ They cost "more" to produce in general,
                             due to batteries, computer controls, and the
                             electric motor + components. The electric motor
                             has large permanent magnets: how are they
                             magnetized? I don't have a URL breaking down
                             official production resources but I doubt that
                             actually exists, I guess Toyota would have to
                             publish it or maybe a component supplier. There
                             may be extra disposal costs at EOL but I don't
                             know if that's significant.
                             Also, for driving highway distances in a hybrid
                             you also lose most of the regenerative braking
                             benefit and rely on the gas engine all the time.
                             At which point you are just carrying around
                             a dead weight electric drive. I dunno. I'm not
                             know if that's significant. I'm not
                             against hybrids but I hate the tax and carpool
                             lane incentive bullshit.
           \_ ob alien invasion claiming stewardship of earth from humans is
              more interesting
           \_ The tragedy of the commons doesn't mean that the situation is
              intractable; it just means that cooperation is needed to
              effectively use the resource (in this case, the entire planet).
               -tom
              \_ True but good luck on that one.  The ob alien invasion above
                 is more likely to happen.
                \_ Exactly and that kind of cooperation doesn't seem very
                   likely in the current climate.
                   \_ Republican SUV drivers are working their damndest to
                      change the climate as fast as they can.
                 \_ If the U.S. signs on to Kyoto and starts to put its
                    might into global issues instead of throwing it into
                    things like Operation Clusterfuck, world cooperation
                    will happen.  In fact, it's already happening, except
                    that the U.S. wants to pretend that we're still an
                      \_ but Democrat SUV drivers are wholesome goodness.
                         \ any gas-powered car drivers are contributing to
                           the problem, but the 'efficient' car owners are
                           just trying to delay the inevitable.  Embrace your
                           doom and prepare to move on. Anything else is living
                           in denial.
              \_ True but good luck on that one.  The ob alien invasion above
                 is more likely to happen.
                 \_ If the U.S. signs on to Kyoto and starts to put its
                    might into global issues instead of throwing it into
                    things like Operation Clusterfuck, world cooperation
                    will happen.  In fact, it's already happening, except
                    that the U.S. wants to pretend that we're still an
                           \_ Are all subcompacts == death traps in your book
                              or the Lupo in particular? They also have a Polo
                              TDI that seems to get 52 mpg with decent torque.
                        \_ The $1-$2 trillion we're flushing down the toilet
                           in Iraq could have really helped restructure the
                           energy grid to start using distributed
                           small scale renewable energy generation on a
                           national basis.  Oh well I guess we'll spend it on
                           starting a civil war in the country and then getting
                           the fuck out once it gets too messy.
                           \_ I thought we were there for the oil.
                           \_ Where's that $1 - $2 trillion number come from?
                              What is your source of renewable small scale
                              energy?  Do I get a tax payer provided solar
                              system for my home and a Prius?
                    island.  -tom
                    \_ Uh, Kyoto leaves China & India free to do what they
                       want.  Even if the rest of what you say is true about
                       the US some how managing to convince/coerce/bully/buy-
                       off the rest of the world without them all cheating,
                       Kyoto isn't the treaty that would help reduce energy
                       consumption world wide.  I'm not sure what you refer to
                       when you say "In fact, it's already happening".  Which
                       "it" is happening?
                       \_ Global cooperation on environmental problems.
                          Kyoto is a first step; if the U.S. signed on,
                          pressure on China and India would be immense,
                          but with the U.S. out, there's no leverage.  -tom
                          \_ They did sign on.  They don't have to do anything
                             of any note.  What leverage?
                       \_ No point in US signing on to Kyoto in its current
                          form until it actually covers everyone.  The only
                          solution to the tragedy of the commons is for
                          *everyone* to cooperate, with no exceptions.
                          \_ They did sign on.  They don't have to do anything
                             of any note.  What leverage?
           \_ food hoarding @ Berkeley co-ops == tragedy of the commons
              \_ There's no reason to hoard food at the co-ops.  There was
                 always tons of money for food.  If your house doesn't have
                 enough food then can your food manager and elect someone
                 who will buy more food.  It's amazing how much more food a
                 co-op house can have when the food manager is told to buy
                 more.  And no, you won't break the budget.
                 \_ i'm talking about hoarding of favorite foods, not food
                    in general / people starving by living in USCA co-ops
                    ... but it sounds like your house was better ...
                   \_ Republican SUV drivers are working their damndest to
                      change the climate as fast as they can.
                    \_ Exactly. I didn't want to hoard the crap. I only
                       hoarded the good stuff, of which there was never
                       enough.
                       \_ Nonsense.  I bought food for my house for a semester
                          and managed the budgets for another.  There was tons
                          of cash on a per person basis to buy all the goodies
                          everyone could possibly stuff down their throats and
                          feed their grubby friends too.  Without blowing the
                          budget.  Hoarding is caused by an artificially low
                          amount of goodies which causes the food buyer to buy
                          less goodies which, etc, etc.  I did the opposite
                          and there was plenty to go around.  I don't know if
                          hoarding stopped but there was no reason to hoard.
                          Stupid food buyers who didn't understand the most
                          basic things about human nature pissed me off.
                          \_ what is this mythical co-op at Cal with unlimited
                             goodies?
                             \_ All of them actually.  The budgets are done on
                                a per person basis.  The size of the house
                                means almost nothing in terms of how much
                                goodies per person are available.  It isn't
                                mythical.  It is/was your food buyer's
                                incompetence and stupidity.  I was there, I
                                bought, I did budgets, I saw all the numbers
                                every week for several semesters.
                                \_ Seconded--a lot of the inefficiency when
                                   I was there came from people not having
                                   much experience in buying.  At CZ, we
                                   regularly had several pots of tofu that
                                   went uneaten, and crates of tomatoes going
                                   bad that were great slingshot ammo.  Same
                                   went for other budgets--I was the first
                                   Davis maintenance guy who didn't snort his
                                   budget up his nose, and had to pretty much
                                   replace the entire tool stock, catch up on
                                   years of neglect, and still had money left
                                   over.  -John
                                \_ I'm wondering if it's a factor of the time.
                                   I was in the co-ops 93-97.  How about you?
           \_ Consider the argument "yeah I can afford the $$ for gas but
              I'd rather spend it on nice dinners.  Plus I get hot eco-bunny
              chicks."  -John
              \_ Hot eco bunny chicks?
                 \_ I'm ad-libbing.  Work with me here.  Anyway, he wouldn't
                    know that there's nouch thing.  -John
                                   \_ I was there 93-96 and I hardly think it'd
                                      have improved.  -John
        \_ Something I've been wondering about it, it's well known that
           you won't recoup the cost of the Prius over some other compact
           car in gas over 10 years. How much of that extra cost
           refelects the cost of the extra resources that went into the
           Prius?  How accurately does the cost reflect the cost of the
           resources, and therefore the amount of oil used to get the
           resources?
           \_ Consider the argument "yeah I can afford the $$ for gas but
              I'd rather spend it on nice dinners.  Plus I get hot eco-bunny
              chicks."  -John
              \_ Hot eco bunny chicks?
                 \_ I'm ad-libbing.  Work with me here.  Anyway, he wouldn't
                    know that there's nouch thing.  -John
                    know that there's no such thing.  -John
        \_ d00d, the prius is $15K cheaper than a gs300.  the prius is also
           underpriced for its technology - it's only "overpriced" compared
           to (non-hybrid) corollas/camry's
           \_ just to comment on your first sentence, Consumer Reports found
              that TCO of an '06 Prius after 5 years could be lower than the
              non-hybrid equivalent *if* you counted the federal tax credit.
              not making any comment about rest of your post.
        \_ Well duh, we all knew already that all republicans are evil and
           stupid and selfish and what are you doing talking to one anyway?
              \_ You can't count a tax credit.  That just means other people
                 are paying for your car.  If everyone bought one and got a
                 tax credit then everyone would be paying full value through
                 their taxes instead of their car dealer.
                 \_ true, but not everyone buys one ... hardly that
                 \_ "You can't count highway subsidy.  That just means other
                    people (e.g. taking BART) are paying for the highways you
                    drive on (e.g. I-880, I-580)."
                    \_ Yes, public transit is not subsidized at all.
                    \_ Car owners are paying for the highways.  The number of
                       adults who don't own a car and therefore are tax
                       victims is trivial.  This is exactly the same as if
                                  \_ Call me trivial, but it only takes
                                     one of me to tell you to go fuck yourself.
                                     \_ *laugh*  Ok.  You're trivial.  Thank
                                        you for adding your well informed and
                                        pithy commentary.  Have a nice day!
                       all everyone got the Prius tax credit: we'd all just
                       pay the rest of the burden via taxes instead of the
                       dealership.  *Someone* is paying for the Prius, the
                       fact that it isn't the Prius owner doesn't mean the
                       car is cheaper.  There's no free lunch in life.
                       \_ Car owners != people who commute by driving solo
                          every day.  I own two cars but I commute by Transbay
                          buses and my wife by BART.
                          \_ Fine, whatever, I'll amend, "The number of adults
                             who don't drive a car and therefore are tax
                             victims is trivial".  Now your turn, tell me you
                             own two cars but never drive them.  If you drive
                             them you are getting money off your purchase price
                             through tax subsidies to the highway system.  It
                             doesn't have to be a work commute.  Any driving
                             at all is subsidized.
                             \_ You mean "the number of spoiled white suburban
                                adults like me who don't drive a car is
                                trivial."  Guess what: not everyone is a
                                spoiled white suburbanite.  -tom
                                \_ 0.8 cars per capita. I am guessing most
                                   are not owned by spoiled white
                                   suburbanites and that even underprivileged,
                                   black, urbanites own cars at roughly the
                                   same rate.
                                   \_ You're right--you're just guessing.
                                      On the facts, you're wrong.  -tom
                                  \_ Call me trivial, but it only takes
                                     one of me to tell you to go fuck yourself.
                                     \_ *laugh*  Ok.  You're trivial.  Thank
                                        you for adding your well informed and
                                        pithy commentary.  Have a nice day!
                                      \_ url for who owns how many cars?
                                      \_ The facts like 0.8 cars per
                                         capita? That's a fact. If black
                                         urbanites instead own 0.5 cars
                                         per capita do you feel vindicated?
                                         How you ever been to the ghetto?
                                         Did you notice a shortage of cars
                                         compared to anywhere else? The
                                         cars are just older.
        \_ d00d, the prius is $15K cheaper than a gs300.  the prius is also
           underpriced for its technology - it's only "overpriced" compared
           to (non-hybrid) corollas/camry's
        \_ Well duh, we all knew already that all republicans are evil and
           stupid and selfish and what are you doing talking to one anyway?
        \_ I hope all tree-huggers buy into this superstition that their
           own shit don't stink. As if using a hybrid really helps - the
           batteries for one are merely pollution re-distribution. It'll
           be a nice awakening when fifty years down the line, when every
           stupid so-called pro-enviromental law pops the worlds economies
           and still nature is none the better. Keep smokin' that shit.
        \_ Yes, I think you are a minority. Most people respond to economic
           incentives (e.g. some would probably rather plant a tree and then
           continue driving SUV because they can). In Europe, midsized cars
           like Accord, Passat, and 3-series are sold with 1.6 and 2.0L
           engines, or diesels. Why? Gas tax, engine size tax, etc. People are
           responding to the incentives. I don't think car-induced pollution
           will significantly decrease unless the government steps in to create
           such incentives to make people drive smaller cars with smaller
           engine displacements, and not to mention do something about the SUVs
           most of which seem to be used a urban grocery-getters.
           \_ ob alien invasion claiming stewardship of earth from humans is
              more interesting
           \_ In Hong Kong, auto license fee is based on engine displacement,
              not the value of the car.  So someone owning a Ferrari with a
              small engine pays less than someone driving a big SUV.  (Not that
              big SUVs are popular there.)
           \_ The economics of buying a larger vehicle would have to be pushed
              so far as to make them available only to the super rich to keep
              all those sub urban shoppers out of them.  IMO they're already
              too expensive to buy and maintain yet people keep shelling out
              for them.  Even at 70-100k you still see plenty of hummers on
              the road which sure as hell can't be worth it.
        \_ I ain't no Republican, but I would never buy a stupid, overpriced
           Prius.  I'll take my Hummer and BMW anyday.  -average American male
                                   \_ You're right--you're just guessing.
                                      On the facts, you're wrong.  -tom
2006/8/15-17 [Science/Battery, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44009 Activity:nil
8/15    How ofter are you suppose to change your car battery?
        \_ Lead-acid batteries last about 5 years if well cared for.
           That means, it is never discharged more than 50% capacity,
           and is kept reasonably cool.  Depending on where you park
           (hot sunny spot?), how often you leave lights on, etc., the
           outcome will be different.  Just test it if you want to be
           sure.  Otherwise, carry a jump cable and wait until you get
           stuck somewhere.  And don't forget to recycle.
        \_ My battery's rated 60 months although I have to honestly say that
           I've never reached 60 months in the past 4 battery changes I've
           done in my life. I usually run them down, which is usually after
           3-4 years, call AAA when I need a jumpstart, and get a new one.
        \_ When it dies.  -average American male
2006/8/13-15 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43989 Activity:low
8/12    What kind of car do you have, how much does it weigh, and what
        kind of mileage are you getting? I'll start:
        98 Honda Accord, 3020lbs, 27MPG
        \_ Alright thanks guys. The reason why I asked was because I was
           curious at the "efficiency" of vehicles, where I personally
           define it as follows:
                My Efficient=(miles * weight) / gallons.
           In another word, how many miles*weight can I carry per
           polluting a unit of petroleum. Sorry bikers, your efficiency
           is 0, however, if you could define your own efficiency,
           measured say, by pollution, that may work. Anyways, the
           following is the efficiency rating of the vehicles below:
                03 Protege5:    74250
                06 Prius:       141610  <--- 1st, most efficient
                06 Accord:      97170   <--- 3rd most efficient
                99 Rav4:        66700
                87 Accord:      72900
                03 BMW:         66462
                94 Pathfinder:  60720   <--- least efficient
                04 WRX Wagon:   72795
                98 Jeep Wrangler: (if shitload==3000&MPG=20, then output=60000)
                98 Audi:        weight unknown
                99 Civic:       63414 (BTW why is your mileage so low?)
                00 E320:        105300 (assume 50% hwy and 50% local) <--- 2nd
                96 Jeep Cherokee: 77000
                \_ 03 Honda F4i: 400lbs * 35MPG = 14000. In another word
                   the motorcycle is the least efficient in terms of
                   carrying weight&distance per gallon. Motorcycle engines
                   are very inefficient and not at all aerodynamic.
                   \_ That's meaningless. Transporting car weight around isn't
                      useful; transporting people and things safely is. People
                      using motorcycles are transporting themselves much more
                      efficiently than most cars, although somewhat unsafely.
           \_ Since your "weight" is the weight of the vehicle instead of the
              weight of the passenges and cargo, you do realize that your
              "efficiency" is actually the efficiency of the engine and the
              aerodynamic shape of the vehicle instead of the efficiency of the
              vehicle as a whole, right?
              \_ First of all I agree that it's a silly measurement. Secondly
                 I already said the efficiency is whatever and however you
                 define it to be. The efficiency that I'm measuring is purely
                 "how many miles*pounds can be achieve with 1 gallon of
                 fuel", and if that is affected by external factors such as
                 the driving condition, type of fuel, aerodynamics, the
                 driver's ability, and what not, so be it. In another word,
                 the numbers I'm giving out is pretty much useless. The only
                 situation that it may be useful is if you're creating lots of
                 kinetic energy bombs that travel on the highway in which you
                 need to create as much damage as possible at the final
                 destination, then you want the vehicle that has as much
                 miles*pounds/gallon rating as possible, as to make it
                 efficient. However cost should also be factored in if
                 the final effect is to crash the vehicle. Yes I'm bored so
                 I'm creating silly non-existing problems to entertain with.
        \_ 2003 Protege5, 2750, 27, I drive <200mi/month, rest on bike.
        \_ Car free since 2000.
        \_ 2006 Prius, 2890lbs, 49MPG
        \_ 2006 Accord, 3239lbs, 30MPG
        \_ 1999 Rav4, 2668lbs, 25MPG
        \_ 1987 Accord, 2700lbs, 27MPG. I'm a poor student.
        \_ 2003 BMW, 3021lbs, 22MPG
        \_ 1994 Pathfinder, 3795lbs, 16 MPG.  Yeah, baby! I get the worst
           I win!  Fuck yah!  -T.E.A.M. America World Police
           \_ Americans are dumb, exhibit A.
              \_ YHBT.
        \_ 2004 WRX Wagon, 3165lbs, 23MPG
        \_ 1998 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L, weighs a shitload, has no power, gets
           about 3MPG but gets up dirt roads.  Back home, 1998 Audi TT 1.8,
           no clue how heavy, about 25MPG  -John
           \_ Yeah, but it's got a lot of torque.
              \_ Buttloads, and awesome fun in the mountains, but for long
                 distance touring I really miss the TT.  -John
        \_ You people are all lardasses.
           \_ Yes, I'm sure you can bench twice your body weight.
        \_ 1999 Honda Civic, 2439lbs, 26MPG
        \_ 2000 Mercedes E320, 3900lbs, 25 MPG (30 hwy)
        \_ rrr... rrii... rrRRRRIDE BIKE!!@@!
        \_ 2003 Subaru; I'm ~ 168 lbs, I don't know how much the car weighs;
           It gets ~ 22 MPG.
        \_ 1996 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L, 3500lb (the vehicle), 22MPG on average;
           2004 Toyota Sienna LE 8-passenger, 3.3L , 23MPG on average.  (I
           don't speed.)
           don't speed.)  I miss my crappy 1987 Ford Escort 1.9L which gave me
           38MPG average.
        \_ 2006 Audi A4 Avant, weight unknown, 24 MPG.  Various motos too.
        \_ 1999 Ford Contour V6. weight ~3000lbs. about 24 mpg. And apparently
           my car is now only worth about $3000. That's interesting. I'll have
           to re-evaluate my damn insurance premiums which are about 1/3 the
           cost of the car, wtf.
2006/8/13-14 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43986 Activity:nil
8/12    How often do fuel injectors need to be cleaned, if ever?
        \_ My understanding was that you don't need to clean injectors
           unless you have problems w/ stalling or engine knock, &c.
           I suppose you could clean them every 15K miles to be on the
           safe side. This faq may be of some use:
           http://www.swedishbricks.net/faq/figeneral.html
        \_ Do it when your mileage goes down. My Accord used to get 28MPG
           consistently but one day, it dropped to the sub 22MPG range.
           It happened after I gased up at this station where the fuel flow
           was really slow and it took 8 minutes just to fill 14 gallons.
           I'm guessing that I had put in fuel with impurities on the bottom
           of the tank, I don't know. Anyways, after putting in fuel injection
           cleaners it went up back up to the 26-27MPG range. I don't get
           28MPG anymore.
2006/8/3-6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43891 Activity:nil
8/3     GM did not Kill The Electric Vehicle:
        http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog_2.html
        \_ That tagline should be more like "GM Denies Killing the Electric
           Vehicle".  They blame the market, which I find unlikely.
        \_ The Jews did it.  -Mel Gibson
2006/7/27-30 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43815 Activity:low
7/26    What are some of the reasons why hybrid fans prefer to buy
        Toyota Priuses instead of Honda Civic hybrids? What's wrong
        with the Honda Civic hybrid?
        \_ One reason that I can think of is that Toyota has (or used to have,
           before the recent recalls) better reputation than Honda in terms of
           reliability.  BTW, how do the gas mileages compare?
           \_ Which hybrid has better reliability?
        \_ The Prius has better tech.  Read up on it.
           \_ Bullshit.  I believe you that it has better tech, but I'm
              not prepared to believe that large scale consumer trends have
              any bearing on such things.  The prius is a fad car right now,
              so people buy it.  It's like back in 1988 when everyone was buying
              Kevin Staab decks even though they had way too much concave.
              Kevin Staab decks for their skateboards.
              \_ Who?  Skateboards?  1988?
                 \_ I think it was 1988, it could have been 87 or 89.
           \_ which translates to real gas mileage of 46-50+ mpg, whereas
              the Civic Hybrid's real gas milesage is ~ 36-40 mpg.
              the Prius also has nearly the same interior space as a Camry.
              also, I believe all the online databases which show 46 mpg
              for the Civic Hybrid is just from driving on the freeway.
              \_ 36-40 mpg for a small hybrid sedan sucks.  Fifteen years ago
                 I had a beat-up 1987 Ford Escort that wasn't in good
                 condition (burned oil), and I was getting about 38mpg.
                 \_ My brother's old Civic did better than 40 MPG.
                    \_ Damn.  I'm still driving a '91 Civic hatchback and it's
                       always done 25 mpg.  Probably because I drive it like
                       a rice car.
                 \_ And if the modern Civic had circa 1987 levels of structural
                    reinforcement, airbags, equivalent power, etc, this would
                    be a good claim.
                    \_ Good point.  Never thought of that.  -- PP
                    \_ So two decades of internal combustion engine
                       advancement, plus going hybrid, plus the difference
                       between American make and Japanese make, is still not
                       enough to offset two decade's worth of bells and
                       whistles?
        \_ Whatever happened to the Insight, I thought it was the king of
           mileage.
           \_ It's in a different category from Civic Hybrid and Prius because
              it's a two-seater.
        \_ http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445
           (Summary: Is the new Civic Hybrid better than the old Prius?
            Nice try, but no cigar)
           http://csua.com/?entry=40048
           (Summary: 2 year old Prius technology is better than the
            brand new Civic Hybrid technology )
           http://csua.com/?entry=43191
           (Summary: old Prius=~new Civic+1, or old Prius>new Civic)
           http://csua.com/?entry=43192
           (Honda says something to the effect "Oh, we thought people wanted
            hybrids because they want to go fast so we supercharged our
            Accord Hybrid. But seeing how badly our hybrids sell, we now
            realize that people want the mileage and not the power")
           (Honda says something to the effect "Oh, I guess people buy
            hybrids because of the high mileage and not the horsepower.
            I guess we fucked up.")
           \_ I won't buy a hybrid with low horsepower.
              \_ That's because you're a dumb ass American who loves the
                 SUV and suburbia. BTW how is Southern Cal?
              \_ Then you'd be better off buying a sportscar, since the
                 typical hybrid is not as cost effective AND not as fast as
                 say, a Porsche. There's a reason why Accord Hybrids are
                 sitting on the dealer lot on an average of 6 months vs.
                 a mere 4 days for Prii. Dumb asses buy Accord Hybrids.
                 \_ "Prii" :-)
                 \_ Well, dumb asses buy hybrids in general.
                    \_ So how is Southern California? Do you have the biggest
                       suburbian home and the biggest SUV? How's 710 and
                       405 and the weather treating you?
                       \_ Love the weather. The weather in the Bay Area blows.
                          It's the main reason I left.
                    \_ There are those who buy hybrids to save money, and there
                       are those who buy hybrids to save fuel.  Don't confuse
                       are those who buy hybrids to save energy.  Don't confuse
                       the two.  (And then there are those who buy hybrids to
                       look cool, and also there are those who buy small
                       hybrids because of their big-penis syndrome.)
                       \_ I think both categories are probably dumb asses.
                          I wonder if the average hybrid owner is in favor
                          of or opposed to nuclear power.
           \_ I want a Sienna Hybrid.
2006/7/18-20 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43710 Activity:nil
7/18    http://www.commutercars.com
        Ultra narrow car that'll increase capacity by as much as 2X!
        (ob rollover and lawsuit discussions below)
        \_ 0-60 in 4sec!
        \_ what does the "(ob rollover ...)" line mean?
           \_ ob = obligatory
        \_ 0-60 in 4sec!  1000 lb-ft torque!
        \_ ...it won't roll over, it's got heavy-ass batteries on the bottom
           read the site.  they're getting a patent for the wildly novel
           concept of using batteries as ballast.
           \_ Did they take into account the upward shift of the CG when the
              vehicle is driven by the average fat-ass American?
                \_ The vehicle weighs an amazing 3000 pounds (is that a typo?)
                   even the fattest American won't affect it much.
                   \_ 3000lb with no regenerative brakes.  This vehicle is not
                      going to be very energy efficent.
                      \_ http://www.commutercars.com/features100.php
                         claims 2200lbs and regenerative brakes.  The T600 is
                         their like "race car for rich people" version.  Also,
                         electric motors are much more efficient than IC or
                         Diesel.  This is why gas + fuel cell + electric
                         motors is almost a win.
                         \_ I didn't realize there are more than one model
                            until now!  Gee, the web pages are confusing.
2006/7/10-11 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43624 Activity:nil
7/10    http://www.wikihow.com/Disable-Reverse-Beep-in-a-Toyota-Prius
        How to disable the annoying reverse beep in a Toyota Prius
        \_ I like how we're now creating technology for which
           superstitious-looking shamanistic actions now hold weight.
           \_ The manual for my 2004 Sienna is full of this kind of easter
              eggs.
2006/6/14-19 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43386 Activity:nil
6/14    Anyone know how long the Prius waiting list is in the Bay Area?  I
        want to try to get it before the HOV carpool sticker quota runs out.
        I realize that most of the discussions are about economy (Prius does
        NOT save you money) and that for the same price I can get a bigger
        and faster car, or for a much lower price I can get something that has
        a slightly lower fuel economy. Those are good points, but I don't
        care because I just want to get a carpool sticker. Thanks so much.
        \_ Don't have an answer to your question, but last I heard the HOV
           sticker is projected to run out by Aug/Sept timeframe.  Check
           with some of the online forums (such as http://priuschat.com) and see
           what the lastest sticker # is.
2006/6/8-13 [Transportation/Motorcycle, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43324 Activity:nil
6/8     I want to sell my 2003 Kawasaki EX500 (500R). It has 9800 miles
        on it and I take very good care of it but it has been dropped
        on the right side at 30MPH, so there are scratches present.
        Everything is original stock OEM parts except the new racing
        Z-rated tires that are rated at +150MPH, which is
        obviously more than my EX500 can handle. Where is a good place
        to post an ad for this bike, and how much can I get it for? Thanks.
        \_ Why are you selling it?
           \_ I don't need it anymore. I've had a lot of fun but it's just
              not practical to keep. It doesn't have much reliability and
              and it costs too much to maintain. I've already got stranded
              on the highway THREE times because of mechanical problems, once
              due to the side kick stand fell off and the safety switch
              disabled the engine because it thought the kick stand was in
              the down position. The second time was due to switching from
              regular tank to reserve 10 seconds within the engine sputter,
              but it wouldn't start at all for 30 min. The third time was
              from a completely dead and leaky OEM battery that was only 48
              months old (it had a 12 month warranty), and I was stranded in
              the middle of nowhere. Then there's the cost of maintenance. I
              don't want to pay $250 per set of tire every 8K miles, and $80
              for a new seal-lead acid motorcycle battery every 48 months.
              In contrast my 60K car tires give me 45K for only $400, and
              my 60-month rated car battery in fact does gives me 60 months
              for 1/2 of the cost. The bottom line is motorcycles are fun,
              but they are not reliable, nor do they make much economical
              sense. I'm sad to give it up, but motorcycles just don't fit
              in my lifestyle anymore.
              \_ You should replace your motorcycle battery more often
                 than once every 48 months. No wonder it "left you
                 stranded," you did not maintain it properly. The total
                 cost of ownership of a motorcycle is much much less
                 than a car, which you would realize if you added in
                 insurance and depreciation costs.
                 \_ Unless you have 60-year old Italian racing bikes.  -John
                    \_ Aren't they comparable to 60-year old Italian
                       racing cars?
2006/6/8-11 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43322 Activity:nil
6/8     Two Toyota dealers are selling the Prius at MSRP, and one marked
        it up by $1200. Another one refuses to give me a price unless I
        show up at their dealership. Has anyone actually gotten a Prius
        for lower than MSRP, and if so, where did you go?
        \_ Geez, is the Prius really worth obsessing over the MSRP?
           For the price I'd imagine you can get a (cheap) BMW and
           probably some hot chicks as well. You can either drive
           lonely by yourself in your small environmentally friendly
           car, or banging some hot chicks in the other car. ;)
           \_I am not sure about BMW, for the price of Prius you can get a nice
             new mid-sized sedan with a lot more powerful but still fairly fuel
             efficient 4-cylinder engine and have some change left.
        \_ You probably already know this, but word on the green car forums
           as of a month ago was that people only got MSRP or MSRP + $500 or
           more, and never below MSRP.  Consensus among friends is that you
           need to go to a Toyota dealer with large inventory, which in
           SoCal would be Longo Toyota in El Monte.  Please let me know if
           you find the equivalent in NoCal.
2006/6/8-13 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43321 Activity:nil
6/8     Dear Prius owners. Has your car changed your life and if so, how?
             \_ Pious
        \_ I drive twice as far now because I don't feel guilty for
           polluting the environment (and also I can drive on the
           carpool lane so that cuts my time to travel)
        \_ For a while, I couldn't figure out why people behind the wheel of
           a Prius drive like assholes, and then I read a San Jose Mercury
           article on the subject.  The Prius displays real time gas mileage
           stats, and the most efficient speed is pretty much always 10 to 20
           mph slower than traffic.  If you get a Prius, please keep your eyes
           on the road and not on the fscking fuel economy stats. -dans
           \_ i think only a small % of people is doing that. i am driving as
              usual (avg. 75 mph ) and am still getting ~47 miles/gallon
              \_ Agreed.  I drive it like any other cars.  I go with the
                 flow of the traffic and I also get 47-48 mpg.  Assholes
                 will be assholes, regardless of what they drive.
              \_ Admittedly, it's anecdotal evidence, but I've corroborated
                 this with others.  For the record, I have no problem with
                 folks who drive like you do.  It's specifically people who
                 adjust their speed to get the *optimum* mileage as specified
                 by the Prius' display. -dans
           \_ What is wrong with going slow, as long as you do it in the
              slow lane?
              \_ You will get a ticket for it.
                 \_ Not if you are going 50+. Are these people going under 50?
              \_ The first problem is that some people do this in the passing
                 lane.  The second problem is that some people do this in
                 ohter lanes, but are going well below the speed of
                 surrounding traffic. -dans
              \_ Because if you're going slower than traffic you're a hazard
                 no different than an aggressive speeder.
                 \_ that's what speeders would like you to think.  That's
                    like Cheney's friend being a hazard because Cheney shot
                    him in the face.
                    \_ Actually no, it isn't like that at all.
2006/6/5-9 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43277 Activity:nil
6/4     http://www.fuh2.com
        \_ Funny, but interesting how few people are actually doing it
           when a Hummer driver can see them.  -John
           \_ It's a lot harder (and less safe) to take a picture when
              driving.
              \_ Many of these have a second person taking the picture.  No
                 excuse.  -John
        \_ Funny-ish. I hate the H2 too (but I love the H1), but who
           the fuck are these people to hate them just because the H2
           isn't fuel efficient? I guarantee none of the site creators
           drive a Prius or something similar.
           \_ how do you guarantee that?
        \_ I hate H2 because it epitomizes the low and unrefined tastes of an
           'average' American. It seems like for many people, the more pompous
           and obnoxious your vehicle looks, the better. It doesn't matter to
           them that they will never drive H2 off-road, that it has maritime
           handling, and poses elevated danger to other people on the road. I
           don't really care about the low fuel economy. Peole are just
           responding to economic incentives. Just make the gas or large
           vehicles expensive enough and they'll start driving more
           efficient cars.
        \_ I hate suburbs and McMansions because it epitomizes the low and
           unrefined tastes of an 'average' American. It seems like for many
           people, the bigger the backyard and the more pompous your home
           looks, the better. It doesn't matter to them that they will never
           utilize 90% of the space, that it wastes more energy with more
           heating/cooling costs, wastes a lot of water for the lawn, wastes
           a lot of money associated with gardens that one rarely uses,
           and require driving far distances and buy big vehicles to shop for
           necessities far away in the cities. People are selfish assholes
           and just want everything without considering the harm they're
           doing to the nature, and to other people. Just make the gas
           expensive or pay for their part in destroying the environment and
           they'll start living in more efficient manners. FUCK SUBURBS.
           \_ Uhm, what differentiates a regular mansion from a McMansion?
              They sound the same to me based on your vitriolic description.
              Are you sure it's not a matter of mansion envy?
           \_ What suburb are you in?  In mine the lawns can be watered with
              a tea cup, the houses, such as they are, are barely bigger than
              your apartment, the cars are the same cars people in the city
              own (and park on the side walks).  I'd like to live in your
              suburb.  Where should I look for it?  -wannabe selfish asshole
              \_ I grew up in Orange County and San Fernando Valley. My
                 parents' homes are huge, and empty most of the time.
                 Most of the things I grew up with were never used, but were
                 great to show off with when we had guests 2-3 times
                 a year. For example our swimming pools, BBQ, yards and other
                 things were rarely used. I'm older now and I totally
                 sympathize for my parents who had to drive 50-100 miles a
                 day to/from work and to drive us to schools in
                 congested roads. 15 minutes to get grocery, 30 min to the
                 nearest hospital, 35 min to my high school... WHY? Because
                 they didn't know any better and lived their lives like our
                 all the other suburbian home owners.           -pp
                 \_ Your experience is not exactly typical. Sounds like
                    your parents were well-to-do. I guess you can hate
                    them for that, if you want to. Most of us are not
                    living in huge houses with wasted space and pools we
                    don't use.
2006/5/25-28 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43192 Activity:nil
5/25    Honda now realizes the horsepower hybrid strategy is a bust, and
        they're cutting production of the Accord hybrid. "It's about fuel
        economy, stupid," says Honda senior vice president John Mendel
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12958916/site/newsweek/page/2
        See, Honda fucked up and it doesn't take a PhD MBA to figure
        that out. Dumb asses.           -disillusioned Honda defector
        \_ It might work if it's a luxury car, like the Lexus sedan hybrid
           But Honda != Lexus, and hence Accord hybrid goes away, like you said
        \_ Disillusioned how?  Did you buy an Accord Hybrid expecting economy!?
           They made no secret that it was a hybrid for performance reasons...
        \_ I'd be more likely to buy a high performance hybrid. Like the
           above poster says, though, people like me are probably looking
           higher end than Accord. Maybe they should put the engine in an
           Acura. However, too high end and the consumer doesn't care what
           the economy is. I wouldn't buy a hybrid Porsche 911, for instance.
2006/5/25-28 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43191 Activity:nil
5/25    http://greenhybrid.com
        Awesome site with DB & actual numbers from consumers.
        \_ Does the Civic hybrid really do that well?  i thought it got
           more like 38 mpg to the Prius's 48 mpg
           \_ Yeah, it's a pretty big difference.  Consumer Reports said 37
              vs. GreenHybrid got 47 on the 2nd gen Civic.  Consumer Reports
              got 26 for the 1st gen, vs. 48 on GreenHybrid!
        \_ keywords: miles per gallon MPG prius civic hybrid
2006/5/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43014 Activity:nil
5/11    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060511/ap_on_sc/hybrid_bear
        Inter-racial bear.
        \_ Good thing that hunter travelled up there to kill it. What a hero.
        \_ Is that really hunting?  Paying someone to lead you to the bear,
           and then just shooting it once you're led there?
2006/4/24-27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42813 Activity:nil
4/23    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12438812/site/newsweek
        Extreme Commuters. "The killer commute to and from exurbia
        is worth it." "Extreme commuters who travel more than 90 minutes
        to work, one way, are the fastest-growing group of commuters,
        according to the U.S. Census Bureau." ""...more people than ever
        are willing to trade time in their car for the American Dream:
        big house, big yard."
        \_ a law requiring people to live within X miles/minutes of
           their homes. discuss.
           \_ Why?  What is there to discuss?  What problems does this cause
              that need to be addressed?  Is that you Car Culture Guy?
           \_ don't be trolling the libertarians like that
           \_ just charge commuters per mile of road they use.
           \_ Perhaps you can explain why you hate extreme commuters?
              For example, you hate them because they cause traffic jams?
              Pollute the environment? Increase driving aggressions?
           \_ why discriminate against them? Just hike the gas tax and
              charge all the users' of the roads equally.
              \_ As we move towards more flexible fuel vehicles, gas taxes
                 aren't as good a way to fund roadwork anymore...
                \_ I think you are correct, but I am going to pull a number
                   out of my ass and say that 99.999999 percent of the
                   vehicles on the road use fuel conventionally.  There's
                   an interesting article in the Chronicle today about how
                   Toyota invested tons of money and effort into hybrid
                   vehicles over a decade ago and now they are the
                   9th largest company in the world. - danh
                   \_ Toyota didn't become successful by developing
                      hybrids -- They became successful by being not
                      stupid and developing hybrids is part of the not
                      being stupid part.  Hybrids are still a small
                      fraction of the market.
                   \_ It's certainly more than 0.000001%, and will be growing
                      quickly in the current geopolitical/reserve taxing
                      conditions.
                   \_ Hybrids are not selling well in Texas, Tennessee,
                      South Carolina, and other Red hick states that demand
                      big SUVs which make it possible for 51% of the people
                      in America to live their American dreams. You know,
                      big American SUV, suburbia lifestyle, and McMansion.
        \_ The high gas price caused by the current pro-free market gov
           is doing a good job detering people from enjoying the life
           the need desperately. It's too bad people really enjoy being
           alone on the road. They really need to get away from their
           whining nagging fat ugly wife and kids that drive them crazy.
        \_ Spending 3+ hours in a car every day is part of the American
           nightmare, not the American dream.  BTW, the longest commute is
           some idiot who lives in Yosemite and commutes to San Jose to work
           for Cisco.
           \_ Maybe he feels happy to get away from his family and work.
2006/4/6-7 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42712 Activity:nil
4/6     Commerical plug-in mod for a hybrid:
        http://www.edrivesystems.com/news.html
        \_ so $1 will save you...$1
2006/4/4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42663 Activity:kinda low
4/4     New Citroen w/ instant on/off engine:
        http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/03/citron_introduc.html
        \_ Is that anything like Intel's viiv instant on?  :-)
2006/3/22-25 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42381 Activity:low
3/22    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060322/ap_on_bi_ge/fuel_economy
        Bush works hard to improve fuel economy. Here's a better idea
        for you out-of-touch politicians. Instead of building endless
        unplanned suburbs, how about encouraging developers to build
        sustainable and more efficient cities that require less driving?
        It'll drastically cut down on fuel consumption and other energy costs.
        \_ Americans value freedom.
           \_ the only reason why you have this "freedom" is because
              government is paying for the road.
           \_ So you equate sitting in a metal box for many hours a week
              with freedom.  You, sir, are a fucking moron.
              \_ You aren't forced to drive everywhere.  Change your career and
                 life style so you don't have to.  Every decision and life
                 style choice has plusses and minuses.  Pick the set that makes
                 you happiest.
                 \_ I haven chosen.  I don't own a car, and I live in one of the
                    very very few places in the U.S. where that doesn't ruin
                     \_ where is that, out of curiosity?
                        \_ Boulder, co.  Buses: amazing, bike trails:amazing
                           \_ indeed a cool place... love the scones from the
                              bakery downtown... best I ever had.
                              \_ Which bakery?  I'm new here, and I like
                                 scones.
                                 \_ I don't remember the name, but it was on
                                    Pearl street, west of the walk-only portion,
                                    on the north side of the street.  Should be
                                    pretty easay to find.  The famous tea house
                                    (in the rough vicinity) was also pretty cool.
                                    \_ looked it up, I think it was Spruce
                                       Confections (767 Pearl St)
                                       \_ Thanks! I'll check it out tonight
                                          or tomorrow.
                    my life.  I intend to vote with my feet on this issue and
                    never live in a shithole like L.A., Houston, or Phoenix.
                    My point is that a life that includes sitting in a metal
                    box for several hours by yourself and not getting paid for
                    it involves less *freedom* than one where you're not.
                    I'm pretty sure I value freedom a lot more than the average
                    SUV driving McHouse dweller on just about every possible
                    axis on which freedom can be defined.
                    \_ Can all of the service workers the city requires afford
                       to live in this efficient and eco-friendly city of yours?
                       \_  In the city I just left? Yes.  In the city I'm in
                           now, rents are still way lower than the sprawling
                           Bay Area.   I don't think your sprawl is the product
                           of the free market anyway--it's just another form
                           of socialism: corporate socialism.  You're probably
                           from LA like most of the rightwing assholes on the
                           motd, so it's difficult for you to understand that
                           people don't have to live that way, but there are
                           plenty of livable non-car cities with over a million
                           people, with a quarter million people, with 80,000
                           poeple, 25,000 people, and less than a thousand.
                           It's not some crazy utopia--it's your world that's
                           a crazy dystopia, and you're just too brainwashed
                           to see it.
                           \_ Hear hear! These car drivin suburbanites
                              refuse to admit how much urbanites subsidize
                              their wasteful and selfish lifestyle. I for
                              one am sick and tired of paying high taxes
                              and other increased costs (like higher utility
                              costs) just so they can live in their McMansions.
                              \_ Well, then we agree.  I have no problem with
                                 these morons going out in the desert and
                                 building sprawl if they want to pay for it and
                                 actually live up to their free market rhetoric.
                                 But, as with most people who carp the loudest
                                 about the "free market", the suburbanites are
                                 really statists.  The exception is when their
                                 pollution infriges on my right to breathe
                                 without getting asthma at a young age, which
                                 I consider to be a basic right.
                                 \_ Our great Lord Bush disagrees with you.
                                    He recommends you drive an SUV and live in
                                    a nice mansion in Texas.
                            \_ http://csua.org/u/fbg is funny
                               The only CA city ranked for walking is... Fremont
                               Aaaaanyway.
                                \_ I didn't have a car for most of my years in
                                   Berkeley and it wasn't a big deal.  Fremont?
                            \_ Which motd rightwingers are from LA?  None
                               of the ones I know are.
        \_ i'll up YOUR mileage
2006/3/1-4 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42057 Activity:low
3/1     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060302/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_consumer_reports
        Good bye Detroit! And good riddens
                                   \_ riddance
        \_ why arent the expensive cars like MBZ and Audi more reliable?
                \_ Consumer Reports had a sidebar on that last year.  Their
                   theory is that European luxury carmakers tend to stuff the
                   cars with unproven, gimmicky electronics that are prone to
                   failure, where Japanese luxury brands are more cautious.
                   \_ It's not that, it's that they do not have sufficient
                      control over their supply chains.  Especially Mercedes
                      was hit by a series of really bad quality component
                      parts, leading to recalls.  BMW and, to a lesser extent
                      Audi, have this reasonably well in hand.  -John
           \_ Isn't it obvious? They are built by Germans who are unhappy
              that the Italians, French and Austrians are always enjoying
              cigarettes, coffee and beautiful women in cafes while they
              are stuck in working in factories whose efficiency would make
              the SS proud.
        \_ Why are people who are generally pro-union, anti-Detroit?
                \_ If the cars were better, I'm sure they would be
                   "pro-Detroit".  When Hyundai cars first appeared here, they
                   were awful and Consumer Reports said the Excel was one of
                   the worst cars they ever had tested.  Maybe they are just
                   being objective?
2006/3/1-2 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42052 Activity:nil
3/1     Soybean fueled car!
        http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/17/eveningnews/main1329941.shtml
2006/2/27-3/1 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42020 Activity:moderate
2/27    Dutch (whoo hoo) design of bus is 50% more efficient and 90%
        quieter than a conventional diesel bus, no fuel cell needed. -eric
        http://tinyurl.com/jprn2
        \_ Dutch were the first to start massive slave trade!!! Not
                 \- i think that is sort of an  arbitrary call.
           only that, they committed mass murder and other cruelties.
           FUCK THEM! FUCK THEM ALL!!!
                \_ What, in the 17th century? Don't complain when Muslims
                   bitch about the Crusades either then.
           \_ I LOVE GOLD!!!
        \_ New... in 2003.
           \_ DOH! Didn't notice.  Hmmm wonder what happened to it? ... Ah
              http://www.etraction.com -- wow 14 MPG for a bus, vs 3.5 MPG for a
              conventional US bus.  Looks like the system increases the
              price by about $25,000 per bus, maybe that is slowing adoption.
              \_ Probably.  From what I read, buses are a loss in many US
                 cities in terms of both dollars/rider AND gas/pollution per
                 rider mile.  (Due to mostly empty buses).  In places where
                 that's the case, a more expensive, more efficient bus
                 probably isn't much of a sale.
              \_ Probably.  From what I read, buses are a loss in many US cities
                 in terms of both dollars/rider AND gas/pollution per rider
                 mile.  (Due to mostly empty buses).  In places where that's the
                 case, a more expensive, more efficient bus probably isn't much
                 of a sale.
              \_ At current prices you'd be saving more than 40 cents/mile, so
                 it wouldn't take very long to recoup a capital investment of
                 $25K for a bus that's operating full-time. Often there are
                 other costs of new technology (shorter life, higher repair
                 costs) as well, though, and that could be the case here.
                 \_ Well according to some of the information, some of the
                    costs would actually be lower, because there are fewer
                    moving parts (no transmission) and the diesel engine
                    is smaller and can always work at the optimum range.
                    However, the question mark is the battery pack.  But it
                    appears that there are a lot of advances to be made in
                    battery pack design in the next 5-10 years.
                 \_ diesel @ $2.50/gallon
                    bus averages 15 miles/hour, 10 hours a day
                    = 150 miles/day
                    150 miles/day / (1 gallon / 3.5 miles) = 43 gallons/day
                    assume the bus runs 80% of the year (maintenance, etc)
                    = 292 days
                    43 gallons/day * 292 days = 12500 gallons * $2.50/gallon
                    = $30,000/year in fuel
                    [(3.5 MPG) / (14 MPG)] * $30,000 = $7500.
                    Savings of $22,500 / year
        \_ Interesting.  It's actually quite similar to the design of a diesel
           locomotive, although it brings the extra complication of a battery.
2006/2/24-27 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41985 Activity:nil
2/24    Extra battery for a Prius:
        http://www.gizmag.com/go/5252
        \_ That's way cool.  I'd pay $5K to not have to gas up again and
           with time-of-use metering it would be cheap to charge at night.
2006/2/22-27 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41961 Activity:nil
2/22    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060222/bs_nm/autos_honda_hybrid_dc
        Honda to sell more low cost hybrids. Uh oh Toyota, you are
        fucked this time, for sure!
        \_ "The newspaper said the Fit hybrid would have fuel economy
           comparable to that of the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius, which the
           auto makers advertise in Japan as getting around 35-36 km to a liter
           (82-84 miles per gallon)."  That's a bit of a jump from the US
           numbers (which are already inflated).  Is that all just emissions
           differences?
           comparable to that of the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius, which
           the auto makers advertise in Japan as getting around 35-36 km to
           a liter (82-84 miles per gallon)."  That's a bit of a jump from
           the US numbers (which are already inflated).  Is that all just
           emissions differences?
           \_ Maybe the jdm version are lighter b/c they don't have air bags,
              electrical seats, windows, &c.?
        \_ Phear my reduced size electric motor paired with 1-Liter gas engine!
2006/1/31-2/2 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41621 Activity:nil
1/31    dave, suppose you put in a regular non-hybrid Civic engine into
        the Prius, how much mileage do you think you'll get out of it?
        \_ which dave?
2006/1/31-2/2 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41613 Activity:nil
1/31    Hack your Prius to enable electrical only operation:
        http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf
        \_ It'll be better if they make the Prius pluggable.
           \_ there might be other issues which prevents Toyota from doing so,
              things like effect on the life of its batteries, etc.  no?
              Otherwise, it would be stupid for Toyota not to do this.
              \_ This is what makes me wonder about politicians getting
                 into the act recently.
              http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_VQPGRGD
                 \_ a cached copy somehwere?  economist is very expensive!
                    \_ /csua/tmp/economist.plug.and.play
2006/1/28-31 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41586 Activity:moderate
1/28    My car needs a smog check, AGAIN! If I have a hybrid, will
        I have to go less often?
        \_ Why would you?
           \_ Possible incentive?
        \_ If a car needs to be smogged, it needs to be smogged every 2
           years.  My motorcycle, on the other hand, never needs to be
           smogged.  Niether does my bicycle.
        \_ Hybrid's are a crock.  Old (Insight, Prius, Civic) hybrids got their
           gains with aerodynamics, weight savings (in some cases) and low-
           resistance (i.e. less-safe) tires.  Newer ones get it on engine
           tweaks (and don't gain that much).  All of them win on paper because
           of an unrealistic EPA testing scenario.
           \_ Aren't gas-only cars also tested under the same unrealistic EPA
              testing scenario?
              \_ EPA numbers for cars are always a pseudo ideal that will never
                 be met in the real world but they *tend* not to be too far
                 off.  My last car was rated 26 highway, I got about 20-23
                 depending on how bad traffic was, so that's pretty close.
                 Traffic was bad enough to change jobs, so....
              \_ Yes, but it benefits hybrids more because of the
                 charge/discharge characteristics.
                http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-epa11jan11,1,7644604.story
        \_ You'll have to go "less often" because new cars don't have to be
           smogged for the first few years. And anyway, you have three months
           to get it done -- I've always been able to do it with regular
           service anyway (before this year, when I became Test Only).
2006/1/21-23 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41466 Activity:moderate
1/20    Is it true that Google gives out rebates to employees for buying
        Hybrids or is it an urban legend?
        \_ #t -dans (I've discussed this with friends who work for Google)
           \- wasnt it $5k for a prius? what prevents the employess from
              arbitraging?
              \_ How about losing trust with your employer if caught abusing
                 a nice thing to pocket a few grand?
                 \- well i mean what does the policy against it look like.
                    do they say 1 rebate per year? do they say you must keep
                    he car for x months etc.
                    he car for x months etc. it has to be illegit to get
                    "caught". see e.g. scholars workstation etc.
                    \_ I believe it's one rebate period.  Maybe one per year.
                       Also, you don't get the rebate until at least several
                       months after buying the car.  I don't know for certain,
                       but I suspect that a program like this will have a
                       human signing off on things somewhere, and it would
                       probably raise a red flag if someone applied for the
                       rebate over and over again. -dans
2006/1/19-21 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41445 Activity:low
1/19    Current US fleet average MPG is 21
        <DEAD>www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/fetrends/420s05001.htm<DEAD>
        John Claybrook issued a NHTSA directive
        requiring a CAFE fleet average of 48 MPG in 1981:
        http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0412-11.htm
        (Yes, the source is Ralph Nader but it is still accurate)
        US oil consumption is 21M BBL/day:
        http://www.eia.doe.gov/mer/pdf/pages/sec11_7.pdf
        Imports at 9.5 M BBL/day:
        http://csua.org/u/ep1 (DOE)
        Gasoline consumption at 400 M gal/day:
        http://csua.org/u/ep0 (Conoco Phillips)
        400 M gal/day = 9.5 M BBL/day
        21/48 * 9.5 M BBL/day = 4.1 M BBL/day
        (9.5-4.1)/21 = 26% of US overall oil consumption or
        5.4/9.9 = 55% of US overall oil imports
        Here is a single URL that pulls all this together, but without
        references:
        http://www.nrdc.org/air/transportation/gasprices.asp
        They claim that 40% of US oil is used by cars and trucks, so they
        get a 20% reduction instead of my 26%, but the number is similar
        either way. I don't know how you can seriously dispute all this.
        You can quibble about the exact numbers, but not the overall result.
        \_ "requiring a CAFE fleet average of 48 MPG in 1981".  You mean
           when Reagan was president?  Ronnie's da man!  Now what does this
           have to do with Carter setting Cafe standard?  Sounds like you
           should be a Reaganite.
           \_ Do you look as stupid as you are?
        \_ Be careful doing simplistic math like this.  You're talking about
           human behavior which is dynamic and not easily predicted.  If gas
           prices were to skyrocket to $15/gallon over night, you'd see the
           total miles driven drop to the baseline driving people *must* do
           to survive (work, buy food, etc).  If gas dropped to 5 cents/gal,
           people would be driving more than they do now.  Same thing with
           mpg.  If I got 500 mpg, I'd be doing a lot more driving for fun
           than if I got 5mpg.  Increasing average mpg isn't necessarily going
           to reduce overall gas consumption by that amount.  It won't and it
           can't.  People aren't like that.  Also, taking a single giant
           number like "current fleet average" is going to change as people's
           tastes change.  Since light trucks, SUVs, etc, get lower mpg, that
           has had an impact on SUV sales causing more people to buy lighter
           vehicles and push up the average over time as those vehicles are
           phased out.  Also, there is another cost to lighter vehicles no
           one has mentioned yet, which is the estimated 1300-2600 additional
           fatalities per year (I couldn't find injury stats, only death) due
  http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150 _/
  uhh, no.  Look at those numbers.  The safest cars FOR THE DRIVERS have
  little to no relation to the size of the car.
           to CAFE standards forcing more light vehicles on the road.  Nothing
           good comes free in life.  More traffic deaths is one of the trade
           offs for having CAFE.  Note that I'm not disputing any of the
           original raw data you're providing but the interpretation of that
           data which says we'll save x% of gas if we increase mpg average
           by y% is not realistic.
           \_ Okay, I will not argue with any of this. Perhaps increased
              fuel economy would encourage people to drive more, etc. The
              main point is that there was and *is* still a relatively
              effective tool we could use to massively decrease our dependence
              on foreign oil, we just refuse to use it.
           \_ Could you provide a reference which shows that people whose
              cars get better mileage drive more?  Because observationally
              that's definitely not true.  And it's certainly not true that
              vehicles which get better gas mileage have more fatalities;
              SUVs cause more fatalities than smaller cars.  -tom
              \_ The death #s are in one of the pdf links I posted earlier
                 from a government CAFE study published in 2001.  Do you have
                 a link showing SUVs cause more fatalities?  I believe the
                 same study also have a lengthy bit about driving habits, but
                 common sense should convince one that higher $/mile will
                 reduce driving by some amount X, and lower $/mile will
                 increase driving by some other amount Y.  If gas was free do
                 you honestly believe people wouldn't drive more?  If gas
                 cost $25/gallon do you honestly believe they wouldn't drive
                 less?  It's late, I'm going home.  The 2001 CAFE study link
                 is on the motd somewhere.
                 \_ If gas was significantly more expensive I would drive
                    a lot less, however if it was significantly less
                    expensive I wouldn't drive any more than I do now.
                    I don't take public transportation for money, I take
                    it for quality of life.
                    \_ So your driving habits are directly changed by the
                       price of gas, which is exactly what I was saying.
                       Pricing is relative, there is only a sliding scale.
                 \_
        http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150
                Besides the object lesson, the stats there show that SUVs
                kill more non-occupants than smaller cars, and that the
                likelihood of occupant fatality is related to the quality,
                not the size of the vehicle.
                I think you can go to the 580/680 interchange and count SUVs
                headed to San Francisco in the morning if you want proof that
                people's gas mileage isn't a major factor in their decision
                to drive.  -tom
                \_ The CAFE thing was originally a minor side point about
                   Carter.  I'm satisfied that we hashed that one out
                   pretty much.  I don't see a point in discussing fatality
                   and usage statistics or anything else with anyone who
                   uses "go to the 580/680 interchange and count SUVs" as a
                   way to determine nationwide behaviour re: gas usage, SUV
                   sales numbers and pricing, yet who starts off asking for
                   links in the same post they say something like, "because
                   observationally that's definitely not true".  The CAFE
                   thing was heated but mostly civil (especially for the motd).
                   I don't see this headed that way.  You "win" if you want
                   to think of it that way.
                   \_ translation: "I have no evidence for my position."
                      OK, thanks for letting us know.   -tom
                      \_ The link is there.  You choose not to read it.
                         Talking with others has been interesting and
                         educational.  That's so rarely the case with you
                         that there's no point.  "YOU WIN! YAY! CONGRATS!"
                \_ If cars actually produced energy, there were no traffic
                   ever so I could drive at 100 miles an hour all the time,
                   and they gave orgasms to all the women one passed, I'd
                   still ride my bike.  I will never drive.  I believe slightly
                   more people of our generation feel this way than our
                   parents' generation, and that this trend will continue.
                   \_ You're a very silly person.
                      \_ You can call my silly all day long--just don't make
                      \_ You can call me silly all day long--just don't make
                         me drive to work.
                         \_ LOL, okay, fair enough.  :P
2006/1/11-13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41344 Activity:high
1/11    Wow, Ford introducing an even BIGGER SUV!
        http://csua.org/u/el8
        It reportedly also comes with a brandy rack!
        \_ Not really.  It's smaller than the Excursion that Ford killed, and
           the Chevy Suburban.
        \_ Whatever.  People should be able to guzzle as much gas as they can
           afford.  On the other hand, I think they should be taxed/charged/
           whatever based on their emissions.  (including CO2)
           \_ emissions are directly proportional to fuel consumption.  -tom
              \_ Catalytic converters, diesel filters, diesel refinement tech..
                 all of this only happens when it's legislated.  If people
                 actually paid less when they had a cleaner car, we'd have
                 even better tech.
                 \_ This unlikely in my opinion.  CARB already discourages
                    many changes to cars that would improve emissions.
                    I believe that the current bureaucracy, is based more
                    on making money and expanding the empire than anything
                    else.  I'd love to see testing based just on emissions,
                    but we are far away from that. --jwm
                    \_ Reread what I put; I phrased it badly.  I agree with you.
                       -pp
                       \_ I see what you're saying now, in the context of
                          "I think they should be taxed/charged/whatever based
                           on their emissions", I was saying that I don't think
                           the goverment is capable of doing this.  But as you
                           say if we payed for emmisions, things would probably
                           clean up fast. --jwm
           \_ No, they should be charged based on emissions, fuel use (like
              now) and weight, with discounts for whether the above actually
              go towards some use--so Fred the gardener in his big pickup
              doesn't pay anywhere near what Bob the lawyer in his Escalade
              has to shell out.  I drive a sports car, which uses a lot of gas
              compared to, say, a small hybrid, and I'm willing to pay
              accordingly.  It also burns relatively clean for a gasoline
              engine, and does not tear up the roads nearly as much as a big
              SUV.  Although to be honest, I've never seen a formula that
              does a nice, fair and unexploitable job of actually allocating
              costs for driving where they belong... -John
              \_ people should pay for whatever the cost of driving is,
                 period. Trying to implement something that penalizes
                 people for being able to afford SUVs is like trying
                 to tax the riches a lot more in Socialism. Evil.
              \_ There is already a gas guzzler fee slapped on a car's purchase
                 price at the dealership by the state of CA.  The amount and
                 the type of vehicle's they target aren't rationally chosen,
                 but such a thing is already going on.  I paid $1400 extra for
                 my car even though the SUV next to it got worse gas mileage
                 because my car has a bigger engine.  Why would we give Fred
                 the gardener a freebie to drive his black smoke spewing truck
                 to tend your grass while Bob's cleaner burning higher gas
                 mileage Escalade gets tagged with a fee on his way to court
                 carrying several boxes of papers and his staff in an attempt
                 to save a dozen old ladies from yet another unfair ED case?
                 \_ Like I said, I've never seen a system that fairly deals
                    with this.  Wasn't there some massive tax loophole for
                    SUVs in the US, as well as a CAFE exemption, or have I
                    been living under a rock?  -John
                    \_ There was something about a tax break for buying a
                       "work" vehicle over a certain price or size or something
                       which happened to include Hummers.
        \_ gas price is going down again, of course they're gonna sell like
           hot cakes again.
           \_ I don't know about that.  Crude is still hovering around $64
              per barrel.  Granted, at these prices, Canadian oil sands
              and Brazilian style sugar cane ethanol are cost effective.
              China and India will still be trying to gobble up the next
              Unocal.
           \_ I still think slap $1 per gallon of Federal taxes to fund
              hybrid/fuel cell technology is a good idea.  It will discourage
              people from driving cars that is excess in size, and it will
              actually cut down on our dependency on Foreign oil so we don't
              have to invade another country to control it.
              \_ Who is to decide what "excess in size" means?  Anyway, new
                 water sources and arable land are harder to find than new
                 oil and are running out faster.  Worry more about what you'll
                 eat and drink tomorrow than what car someone else drives.
                 \_ Stop watering your lawn.  If you want to enjoy green grass,
                    go to a park.
                    \_ Go look up how much water is spent by people in CA and
                       how much goes into farming silly things like alfalfa.
                       You're very flip for someone who might not have anything
                       to drink in 30 years but at least you'll get some nice
                       fluff on your burger today.
                       \_ Erm, alfalfa is a feed crop.  If you want that burger,
                          you shouldn't think alfalfa is silly.
                          \_ Farming in CA is mostly silly.  Farming what they
                             farm here where they farm it is ridiculous.  Yes,
                             alfalfa is mostly a feed crop but it isn't
                             efficient and if the central valley farmers had to
                             pay anything close to the real cost of water,
                             alfalfa wouldn't be grown by many, if any, of
                             them in CA.
2006/1/6-9 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41279 Activity:nil
1/6     http://www.laautoshow.com/2006/designla/popGmc.html
        It's a car! It's a home! It's what GMC calls the hybrid
        car/home. Wait, isn't it just a glorified trailer home?
        \_ um, yes but it looks like its from the year 6000! so it must
           be cool. ps, what the fuck is a "teraflop of onboard memory"??
           \_ Who cares?  You're watching "The Island" on 2 screens at once!
        \_ An RV for the Burning Man crowd.
2005/12/12-14 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40971 Activity:nil
12/12   Hybrid Camry pictures:
        http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12/more_photos_of.php
2005/11/25-28 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40733 Activity:moderate
11/25   Toyota to introduce better hybrid system in 2008:
        http://tinyurl.com/b32un (reuters.com)
        \_ what happened to GM's fuel cell plan?
           \_ It's going as well as American cars!
        \_ This was known already for some time. This news is specially
           irritating to GM and many other companies that are still trying
           to get their first-generation hybrid vehicles right.
           \_ just watch.  US Congress will eventually threaten Toyota to
              release the patent right in order to protect GM/Ford.
              \_ Ford already licensed Toyota's hybrid technology
        \_ Still waiting for a hybrid minivan.
2005/11/22-24 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40699 Activity:nil 70%like:40697
11/22   Prius vs. Civic Hybrid. Winner-- Civic Hybrid. GO HONDA!!!
        http://tinyurl.com/68tbu (car-data.com)
        \_ What's the point of doing a comparison with a Prius that's at least
           three model years old?
        \_ The correct title is "why I like the Civic better than the Prius"
2005/11/22 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40697 Activity:nil 70%like:40699
11/22   http://www.car-data.com/xpage.compare/cmp.template.asp?mfg=compare&model=toyotaprius-hondacivichybrid
        Prius vs. Civic Hybrid. Winner-- Civic Hybrid. GO HONDA!!!
        \_ What's the point of doing a comparison with a Prius that's at least
           three model years old?
2005/11/4-5 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40445 Activity:high
11/4    My father is going to give me his 1999 Ford Taurus. I'll be using
        it for grocery shopping and making occassional short trips aroud and
        outside of the Bay Area on weekends. Can someone recommended a good and
        affordable roadside assistance service? Also, can someone recommend an
        auto repair shop that I could use for routine maintenance and any
        problems that pop up?
        \_ For roadside repair, AAA is The Standard. I think it's about $45/yr.
           They also have a list of "AAA Approved" mechanics, which is how I
           found mine (in Mountain View). If you don't get a personal
           recommendation, I suggest you look there. -gm
           \_ $45 includes free towing up to 3mi.  They can even tow from your
              home garage which is not exactly "roadside" and "emergency".
              The next level of membership includes up to 100mi.
              -- member since '92
              home garage which is not exactly "roadside emergency".  The next
              level of membership includes up to 100mi.  -- member since '92
              \_ 7 miles, not 3 miles.
                 \_ Oops, both you and I are wrong.  It's actually 5 miles:
                    http://csua.org/u/dxc (http://www.csaa.com  -- member since '92
                    \_ well, it's 7 miles in SoCal (for my zip code anyway).
                       It's probably 5 miles where you are.
              \_ yah, I agree AAA is great.  My car died close to home, I
                 pushed it to the curb, the next day I called my mechanic to
                 let him know my car was coming, then called AAA and they
                 towed it to the auto shop without my needing to go.
              \_ free maps too, and their monthly magazine(so-so) and
                 other discounts to AAA members, like at Fresh Choice
        \_ The downside to AAA is that they lobby strongly for more
           car-friendly pork, often at the expense of, say, public
           transportation and light rail.  See:
           http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2003/02/11/warriors
           for an alternative organization that will also provide roadside
           bike assistance, albeit with a shorter towing radius.
2005/10/25-27 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40266 Activity:nil
10/25   How long does an average car battery usually last?  I replaced my car
        battery 3.5yrs ago with an $85 one at a mechanic, and now that battery
        seems to be dying.  I drive the car every weekday.  Thx.
        \_ Anywhere from 3-5 years seems normal.  Mine was just replaced after
           5 years of services after I left my lights on.
           5 years of service after I left my lights on.
        \_ Not all batteries are created equal.  The piece of shit factory
           battery that came with my Mitsubishi died in the first year.  The
           Interstate that I replaced it with lasted 7 years.
           \_ Heh, the crappy factory battery in my Ford Taurus almost made it
              to 7.5 years after 105k.                -mice
2005/10/24-25 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40249 Activity:kinda low
10/24   Environmental group going after Toyota:
        http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/attackads24e_20051024.htm
        \_ "The hybrid version of the Highlander got only 20.6 miles per
           gallon in a week-long test drive this year on a range of
           driving conditions by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan. The
           EPA rating shows the vehicle gets 33 m.p.g. city/28 m.p.g.
           highway in federal tests. The non-hybrid Highlander, meanwhile,
           was rated 19 m.p.g. city/25 m.p.g. highway by the EPA -- much
           closer to the actual results in the hybrid." Ummm... so what
           about the actual "test-drive" results for the non-hybrid...?
2005/10/19-21 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40185 Activity:high
10/19   Let's reinstate the 55mph limit.  "For every mile per hour faster
        than 55 mph, fuel economy drops by about 1 percent, said Jason Mark,
        clean vehicles program director for the Union of Concerned Scientists.
        The drop-off increases at a greater rate after 65 mph. The faster you
        go, the faster the fuel goes."  http://csua.org/u/dro
        \_ my suggestion is impose $1.5 per gallon of federal tax on gasoline
           and people will go green as result.  We can use the money to
           really fix the road and provide research funds for things like
           automated highway, fuel cell research, etc.
        \_ better yet, lets go back to walking, bicycles, and horse and buggy.
           Gasoline usage drops 100%.  Fatalities due to dangerous speeds
           drop drastically too.  No more dependence on foreign oil!
        \_ Fuck speed limits.  The average travel speed has been going down for
           years, because on average people just keep spending more and more
           time sitting in traffic.  Throw in the extra time spent working to
           pay for the stupid ass car habit, and you actually aren't going
           any slower by biking to work.  -anticartroll
        \_ Since this seems to be "right vs. good" week, how about making it
           voluntary?  Educate people about how much they'll save, and they
           can decide for themselves whether driving slow is worth it to them
           on any given occasion.  If you're worried that it's hard to drive
           55 when everyone else is going 80, you could reserve some freeway
           lanes for slow drivers, without mandating it for everyone all the
           time.  If your goal is to reduce dependence on oil rather than just
           to save people money, then you can also impose extra taxes on oil
           to encourage conservation -- not only will this make people drive
           slower on average (while still allowing them to drive fast when
           they need to), it'll also give them an incentive to save oil in
           other ways (buying more efficient cars, closing the windows, etc.).
           \_ Well, how fast will you be driving on the freeways?
           \_ So how fast do you plan to drive on the freeway?
              \_ I vote for 60mph.  --- !PP
        \_ Wouldn't this depend on which car?  Maybe some cars get
           optimal fuel efficiency at 55, and others at 70.  Might
           also depend if you are going uphill, have the windows open,
           etc.
           \_ Wind resistance roughly doubles between 55 mph and 70 mph.
              At 55 mph, "tire resistance" and wind resistance for a typical
              car are about equal. -!op
           \_ I spent one week in truck doing 55 and the next week doing 70
              to see how much I would save and my gas usage was about the same.
              One week is most of a tank for me so it was enough data.
        \_ I call bullshit on this. I've driven 101 from SF to LA plenty of
           times in a BMW with a trip computer monitoring my fuel efficiency
           and found that it was optimal (about 30mpg) at around 70mph.
           \_ BMWs are fairly aerodynamic so they're impacted by wind
              resistance at higher speeds. Their torque band also lies in
              the 3000-5000 range which corresponds to about 70MPH. Not
              all cars are like this.
           \_ You're saying Jason Mark, clean vehicles program director for
              the Union of Concerned Scientists, author of "Greener SUVs: A
              Blueprint for Cleaner, More Efficient Light Trucks" and
              "Zeroing Out Pollution: The Promise of Fuel Cell Vehicles",
              doesn't know what he's talking about?
              \_ I find all statistics suscpicious which don't allow for
                 different kinds of cars.  If you really wanted to cut down
                 on gas consumption, think "trains".  Anyway, regardles of
                 whether he's right or not (he's got a point about the wind
                 resistance, but it affects different cars differently), your
                 post reeks a bit of Mr. Science ("I have a master's degree..
                 in science!")  -John
                 on gas consumption, think "trains".  -John
                 \_ The problem is that it's impractical and dangerous to
                    have a different speed limit for each car model.
                    You need to find a composite speed limit that works
                    \_ Just tell cops to not give tickets to those of us who
                       are RICH WHITE MEN with GOOD CARS and everyone will
                       be happy.  -John
                    best in the aggregate for the distribution of cars out
                    on the road.  BTW, I should have made the sarcasm more
                    obvious when I tried to defer the the UCS guy's
                    authority. -pp
           \_ Yup I hit 31 MPG, the highest I've ever seen, driving on HWY 5
              @ 75 MPH in my Mercedes for a long stretch.  No breaking, flat,
              etc.
           \_ I tried driving the long stretch on the San Mateo Bridge,
              excluding the incline section, with my '04 Toyota Sienna 2WD van,
              which is more aerodynamic than older minivans.  I drove the whole
              stretch at 55mph, then the whole stretch at 60mph, and again at
              65mph.  I reset the "average MPG meter" (whatever it's called) at
              the beginning of each run, right after I passed the toll booth
              and accelerated to the desired mph.  For the 55mph and the 60mph
              runs, the meter readings were roughly the same.  But for the
              65mph run, the reading was 2-3mph lower.  I didn't use the
              "instant MPG meter" because it fluctuates too much.  -- yuen
        \_ The 55 mph speed limit was based in part on the facts that
           most cars at the time had poor areodynamic design and had
           large engines (v6/v8) that were not particularly efficient.
           In comparison most cars these days have better aerodynamic
           design at all speeds and esp. at high speed (65+ mph). Also
           most cars these days have smaller engines that are far more
           efficient (there are far more c1v1cs on the road than hummers).
           \- conserving to keep stuff cheep just lets other people
              face lower prices. if you want to be active about something
              then lobby for more research in alt energy. or maybe higher
              taxes on gas if you want to punish people with big cars.
              this drive 55 is like turn your thermostat down or do your
              laundry at night. it's better to change the price structure.

           \- should we have say quotas on home energy use? should
              we have legal max thermostat settings?
                 \_ I don't believe in quotas, however I see no prob.
                    w/ imposing higher prices on ppl who use more than
                    the ave. (an luxury tax if you will - pg&e does
                    this already).
                    The legal max thermostat setting is an interesting
                    prob. If the purpose is to limit consumption, then
                    I think no, but if the purpose is to promote health
                    and safety (fire hazard, &c.), then I would say yes
                    b/c regualtion of health and safety is a traditional
                    concern of the state.
              \- i have seen a number of these stats about the marked drop off
                 of efficiency at highers speeds in say AAA literature. i am
                 wondering if they forget or deliberately do not factor in
                 the greater distance travelled in unit time. e.g. there is a
                 difference between volume of fuel burned per minute at
                 55 vs 75 and then there is volume of fuel burned per *mile*
                 at 55 vs 75. ok tnx. --ANONYMOUS DRIVER
                 \_ Don't they usually report gas mileage to begin with?
                    \- i'm talking about stats like the one in the first
                       \P of this thread. you're not sure what they mean.
                       P[ost] of this thread. you're not sure what they mean.
                       \_ It's simple physics; power to overcome wind
                          resistance increases with the cube of velocity.  -tom
        \_ See the mpg vs. mph graph in
           http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml
           "As a rule of thumb, you can assume that each 5 mph you drive over
           60 mph is like paying an additional $0.21 per gallon for gas."
           BTW, there are other useful gas-saving tips at
           http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/drive.shtml

         _________________________________________
2005/10/14 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40093 Activity:nil
10/14   Prius recall:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051014/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_toyota_recall_3
2005/10/12-13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40048 Activity:moderate
10/11   http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
        http://tinyurl.com/cgtar (honda.com, click on View and print the Fact)
        Quick comparison between the two auto transmissions:
                        Honda           Toyota
        Compression:    10.8:1          13.0:1  <--- big difference
        Gas HP          85-87HP         76HP
        Elec HP         13.4HP          67HP  <--- big difference
        MPG             47-48MPG        55-60MPG  <--- big difference
        Cost            $20,900         $21,275  <--- little difference
        Sorry, but Honda is clearly a big loser. Their engines suck, their
        electric moter is weak, their mileage is lower, and it's only $300
        cheaper. I don't understand why they even bother to compete.
        \_ looks, my friend.  people go for the looks of it.
        \_ With only 13.4HP, can the Civic run on electricity alone at all?
           \- people buy crappy regular cars. why does it surprise you
              they may buy crappy hybrids.
              \_ But with horsepower as low as 13.4, the engine might need to
                 stay on all the time, which defeats the purpose of having
                 hybrid.
                 \_ The electric motor's for low speeds, where torque is much
                    more important than peak HP.  Picture a team of 13 horses
                    attached to the front of your car.  They could get it going
                    from a standstill just fine... they just couldn't go 70.
           \_ On the Prius, the electric is used to replace the gas engine in
              low power situations.  On the Civic, its used to augment the
              power of the gas engine so they can use a smaller more efficient
              gas engine than on a conventional Civic.
        \_ can hybrids pass other cars?  Is it safe to pass on a mt. road
           with a hybrid?
           \_ No, it's better to pass with a big SUV like the Ford
              Excursion. It's really cool too.  Even the Hummer looks
              small beside it.
              \_ That guy on the bicycle with the RPG will be me.
        \_ speaking of honda hybrids:
           http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/12/Autos/most_efficient_cars/index.htm
        \_ what is the difference between 2006 Insight and previous version?
           they looked the same.
2005/10/7-9 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40008 Activity:nil
10/7    My 2 year old motorcycle that I bought new has about 8000 miles and
        I already need to change my rear tire. In addition, my lead-acid
        battery is crapping out. I've been having to add distilled water and
        the negative contact keeps getting corroded. Today while checking
        the cable the contact just broke off! I went to the shop today and
        got a new maintenance-free SLA Yuasa battery for $71. In addition
        a new rear tire costs about $175. In comparison, my car battery costs
        about the same and lasts twice as long, and each car tire costs about
        1/2 of the motorcycle tire and lasts 5-6X as long. As for mileage?
        I get only 45MPG, which is still less than a Prius. This totally
        debunks the myth that motorcycles are much more economical to operate
        than cars. What a dissapointment.
        \_ Never seen the battery issue, but yes motorcycle tires don't
           last as long.  They are made to be super sticky because you
           need that traction a lot more than you do on a car.  Also,
           especially if you are a new rider, you are a lot more likely
           to skid the rear tire.  That being said there are tires out there
           that will last 10-15k, but they are going to add a tiny bit of
           risk to your ride, is that worth it to you? 2 tires/8k miles is
           about 2-3 cents a mile.
           As to 45MPG what bike do you have and how do you ride it?
           If all you want is a commuter bike you don't need a super sporty
           bike.  Even a dinky motorcycle has an obscene power/weight ratio
           when compared to any car, esepcially a prius.
                \_ How about the Bugatti Veyron?
        \_ A coworker rides a motorcycle to work every day.  He said he has
           to change tires every 7500 or so and gas mileage varies a lot
           based on how you ride.  He also gets to lane split his way to
           work which I'm pretty sure a Prius can't ;-) and can park almost
           anywhere, sometimes for free.  How much research did you do before
           buying a bike?  And what's up with 4k miles/year?  That isn't a
           commute vehicle.
        \_ Who makes your crappy bike?
           \_ Kawasaki
        \_ My bikes are 55 and 60 years old, have ca. 30k miles, and I don't
           have this problem 8)  -John
           \_ You have a bike from 1945 and 1950? Are you serious? What
              brand are they and do you have problem getting a mechanic
              servicing them?
              \_ 1951 Condor A580 (Swiss army bike) and 1946 Moto Guzzi
                 Airone 250.  The Condor's no prob, since as with all army
                 stuff everywhere there's loads of spare parts and it never
                 breaks (had some major repairs on replacement of worn out
                 cylinders and valves though).  As for the Airone, I'm about to
                 find out how much pain it'll be to get it street legal and
                 store it (it's more of an investment).  There are garages
                 specializing in both here though, and I made friends with the
                 old guy who bought all the surplus stocks of spares for
                 Condors a while ago.  Not for the faint of heart.  Pics are
                 in ~john/Bikes if you're interested.  -John
                 Condors a while ago.  Not for the faint of heart.  -John
        \_ How much is your insurance?
        \_ Yes, repairing a motorcycle is more expensive than fixing a
           car.  No surprise there, the demand is low, and to most, it is
           a toy.  However, you win on gas, insurance, parking, and
           registration.
           \_ And depreciation.
              \_ But lose big on safety.
                 \_ And you can't get laid in the back seat.
                    \_ And you lack imagination.  And flexibility.  -John
2005/10/4-6 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39978 Activity:nil
10/4    Hybrid Trucks use 40-60%  less fuel:
        http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/initial_testing.html
2005/10/2-4 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39947 Activity:nil
10/2    Do hybrids really save any money?
        http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000233061415
        \_ err... this is well known fact.  Even Toyota is admiting that.
           *BUT* I think there is a big psychological factor which you
           need to taken into account.  While Hybrid's price premium is a
           one-time deal, you do get Gas every week or two.  Save a bit of
           money on weekly basis does mount to this 'feel good' factor.
           Toyota know this won't last long that is why it is pushing
           hybrid to every model they got out there, hoping that economy of
           scale will eventually drive the price down.
        \_ Is it fair to compare a Prius and a low-end non-hybrid Civic?
           Buying the crappy Civic will definitely save you money, duh.
           Anyway, someone posted a comparison between a Civic and a 50 MPG
           hybrid Civic and you break even at 45K miles.
        \_ Some people also care about conserving oil besides saving money, be
           it enviromental or political reason.
        \_ Is the purchase price difference between a Prius and the comparable
           non-hybrid $8K?
           \_ it is easier to blame China for it.
           \_ Why do you care about this? Do you think some people buying
              hybrids will make a significant impact on the global oil market?
              Please justify. (Plus, hybrids don't always get the advertised
              mpg, especially for sustained highway driving, and probably cost
              more energy to produce.) I think clean diesel technology makes
              more sense right now as it has virtually no extra cost or
              practicality sacrifices.
              \_ Gasoline-only vehicles don't always get the advertised mpg
                 either.  Same thing.
              \_ It's clear that hybrids are making an impact. Toyota
                 alone is spending billions on this and other technologies
                 as a result of consumer demand. The effect now is small,
                 but it is growing.
              \_ It does cost more energy to produce the batteries, motor, and
                 the regenerative brakes, but it costs less energy to produce
                 the smaller engine, smaller frictional brakes, and maybe
                 smaller fuel tank which somewhat offsets the difference.
                 Anyway, I'm guessing that the extra energy needed to produce
                 hybrids are far less than the energy it saves during
                 operation.
              \_ Gasoline vehicles don't always get the advertised mpg either.
                 either.
        \_ Especially not if you consider that the batteries wear out and
           need to be replaced at a cost around $20k. The price per mile
           is higher than a conventional car.
           \_ Where did you get your figure?  Toyota's warranty for the
              Prius battery (for California) is 150K/10years.  Some guy
              used the Prius as a Taxi and got over 250K on it.  The cost
              to replace the battery is more like $4-$5K.  Heck, at
              150K mileage, I would just junk the car.  When is the last
              time you kept your car over 150K/10year?
                \_ Every car I've ever owned, although the first 2 were already
                   pretty far along by the time I got them.  I hope my current
                   lasts 20 years.
                   \_ No kidding. I keep my cars that long, too. When do
                      you finally give up on them? I pretty much drive
                      them until they need a major repair (e.g. head
                      gasket blows).
                      \_ First car: 1973 Datsun 510, can't remember the mileage
                         Got rid of it around 1991 when I was a starving
                         student and couldn't afford to replace the clutch.
                         Car #2: 1989 Honda Civic.  Got rid of it in 2000 at
                         235,000 miles thx to the stock market boom.  Current
                         car: 2000 Mercedes E320 @ 60,000 miles.  I like the
                         car, it gets 30 MPG and I hope it will run until 2020.
                         \_ You're getting 30 MPG on a 2000 E320?  According to
                            http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm it's
                            rated 21/30 city/hwy, and EPA numbers are usually
                            higher than reality.
                                \_ I get 26-27 MPG overall, I was
                                   talking just highway.  I got 31 MPG for a
                                   while on a recent highway trip during
                                   favorable conditions (Interstate 5).  I
                                   don't have a lead foot, that helps.
        \_ Is it fair to compare a Prius and a non-hybrid Civic?
        \_ Some people also care about conserving oil besides saving money.
              used the Prius as a Taxi and got over 250K on it.
                                   \_ How come a E320 gets better mpg than a
                                      C320?
                                      C320, even though a C320 has the same
                                      engine and is smaller?
2005/9/23-26 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39839 Activity:low
9/23    A Texan said "They're giving $10 worth of gas if you're on empty and
        $5 if you have some. That's not going to get you very far."
        I guess they're not driving Hybrids.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050923/ap_on_re_us/rita_texas_exodus_hk1
        \_ I think I see a rear door of a Prius behind those four SUVs.
        \_ I think it makes sesne for people to drive their gas-guzzling SUVs
           when they're escaping hurricanes, because those can ford water and
           go over debris.  For daily commute it's a different story.
           go over debris.  For daily commute it's a different story.  On the
           other hand, I realize that hybrids work very well in traffic jams
           because it burns zero "gas" when idling.
           because it burns zero "gas" when idling.  -- foo
           \_ It makes sense for the individual participants, yes. It's basic
              psychology. But look at it this way. When a society faces
              famine, hording happens everywhere. However, hording
              exacerbates food shortage for everyone else, so on and so forth.
              \_ Agreed.  The fed/state should provide more buses for
                 evacuation, and reserve the contraflow lanes for those buses
                 only.  This way they can move a lot more people much faster.
                 (Plus they can take credit like "we evacuated X number of
                 people" instead of "we told X number of people to evacuate".)
                 --- foo
                 \_ Republicans hate big governments. Maybe they should
                    privatize evacuation and emergency facilities as well.
                    They'll definitely run more efficiently and a lot more
                    cost effective than the weak government we have now.
2005/9/17-20 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39738 Activity:kinda low
9/17    Toyota to go 100% hybrid:
        http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/15/C07-315611.htm
        Related Update, Toyota to reduce the price of hybrids:
        http://tinyurl.com/a2lmv (usatoday)
        (this was mentioned in the first article as well)
        \_ They're going hybrid with the Highlanders, and competitors to
           follow. GREAT! I can't wait to get my Chevy Suburban or Hummer
           hybrids so that I can drive in style for the mere gasoline cost
           of a traditional Honda Accord.
           \_ Sport Utility Vehicles have gotten a lot of bad press lately,
              but they're manufactured for one reason: to transport today's
              modern genetic super breed of wives, kids, and dogs which can
              weigh in excess of 250lbs each.
              \_ Holy shit.  When did everyone upgrade to Marmaduke?
        \_ Toyota has a habit of doing what they say they will.  GM is sooo
           screwed.
           \_ Toyota is like, Microsoft. They can do whatever they want
              and force competitors to catch up. GM/Ford is like Sun Micro,
              they play stupid immature marketing games and come out with
              lamewares like StarOffice or something, and they play the
              number games very well but in the long run it's just fruitless
                \_ in Sun's defense, StarOffice was never meant to be a "real"
                   product.  it was acquired along with a Czech company and
                   for a long time had no support.  Also, one of those stupid
                   immature marketing games was called "Java."
                   \_ Has Sun made any money off of Java yet?
                      \_ Last I heard, IBM made more money of Java than Sun
                         did. This drives the Sun people I know up the wall,
                         more because they dislike IBM than because they like
                         Java. -gm
                      \_ < 200 million last year, FYI.  If soffice
                         product marketing team let me play, I can get
                         a lot further than they got right now.  -sun guy
                         \_ soffice is a pos, I can't believe they make
                            us use it - also a sun guy
                            \_ Nweaver taught me to write in Postscript during
                               our lazy afternoons together.
                               the afternoon times. -sun tranny
                      \_ Java may be not making them money as much as letting
                         them survive, since if everyone used proprietary
                         Windows stuff to run web servers Sun would have been
                         toast a long time ago.
                      \_ They've monetized J2ME on cell phones. i.e. games
2005/9/17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39723 Activity:high
9/17    Toyota to go 100% hybrid:
        http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/15/C07-315611.htm
        \_ They're going hybrid with the Highlanders, and competitors to
           follow. GREAT! I can't wait to get my Chevy Suburban or Hummer
           hybrids so that I can drive in style for the mere gasoline cost
           of a traditional Honda Accord.
           \_ Sport Utility Vehicles have gotten a lot of bad press lately,
              but they're manufactured for one reason: to transport today's
              modern genetic super breed of wives, kids, and dogs which can
              weigh in excess of 250lbs each.
              \_ Holy shit.  When did everyone upgrade to Marmaduke?
        \_ Toyota has a habit of doing what they say they will.  GM is sooo
           screwed.
           \_ Toyota is like, Microsoft. They can do whatever they want
              and force competitors to catch up. GM/Ford is like Sun Micro,
              they play stupid immature marketing games and come out with
              lamewares like StarOffice or something, and they play the
              number games very well but in the long run it's just fruitless
                \_ in Sun's defense, StarOffice was never meant to be a "real"
                   product.  it was acquired along with a Czech company and
                   for a long time had no support.  Also, one of those stupid
                   immature marketing games was called "Java."
                   \_ Has Sun made any money off of Java yet?
2005/9/12-13 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39631 Activity:low
9/11    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050910/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_showcase
        After slow sales and losing money and getting its ass kicked by Prius
        for 3 years, Honda finally unveiled its newest Honda Civic Hybrid,
        which is a lot more efficient than the old Honda Civic Hybrid. It's
        a whopping 50mpg/50mpg on both freeway/surface, a big improvement
        from 3 years ago. By the way, an old Prius is still 61mpg/51mpg on
        freeway/surface. Great job, Honda. They smoking weed there?
        \_ I'd own a civic b4 i'd own that wind-up car Prius anyday.
        \_ What's the actual gas mileage, since the EPA numbers are total
           fantasy ... (see latest consumer reports for more info)
           \- You should mail a machanical engineering professor a UofM
              and ask what car to buy.
        \_ Damn!  I didn't know about this car show.  Too late.
        \_ What's the MSRP?
        \_ Give me a hybrid Odyssey please!  -- minivan owner
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39218 Activity:very high
8/22    SUV owners: Are you still happy with your oil guzzlling SUVs, or
        is the gasoline price getting painful?
        \_ I don't drive an SUV but I did just put $52+ in my tank.  Does it
           hurt?  Only in the "gee, that was the most expensive tank of gas
           I've ever bought in my entire life... oh well" kind of way.  The
           price has *zero* effect on my driving.  Why?  I still need to drive
           to work, to the store, to visit family, etc.  I'm really happy for
           the anti-car folks who live in a tiny village making pottery out
           of their backyard to sell to their pottery buying neighbors down
           the street who live next to their parents, but the rest of us have
           lives to live.  When someone donates a $1M+ home I'll be able to
           live closer to work but that will put me further from my family.
           \_ Your little rant was cute and all, tough guy, but why don't
              you tell us one reason why you need a SUV? What does it do
              that a minivan or a regular old sedan can't do?
              \_ Some people need to haul their entire living room up K2.
           \_  Great.  You just keep on thinking that the California car
               driving lifestyle is the only way to have a decent life,
               and stay the fuck out of the decent places so the rest of
               us can live in peace.
               \_ Yep, you've convinced me with your deep and pithy style
                  that my lifestyle is just wrong.  Please provide a list of
                  "decent places" so I know how to avoid hyper aggressive
                  ninnies like you.  Thanks.
               \_ It's not just California, it's the entire country.  The
                  modern American way of life is built on cheap gas.  We need
                  to start thinking seriously about how we're going to live in
                  a world where gas is not cheap, instead of just getting into
                  unproductive left/right pissing matches.  The "sky is
                  falling" crowd and the "I don't care, something will fix it
                  all for us" crowd are both blinkered.
           \_ How about telecommuting, even as little as once a week?
              \_ *laugh* Yeah, uhm, sure.  Talk to my boss.  Thanks.  As if I
                 _choose_ to not telecommute.
           \_ My SUV's mileage is 20mpg, which is not that much worse than our
              other car's 26mpg.  On the other hand I find it far more
              versatile.  However, I also don't drive it that much.  Why focus
              on car style and MPG when you should be focusing on overall GAS
              usage i.e. in gallons/day?
              \_ Exactly.  I own an SUV, but I only drive it a short distance
                 to transfer to public transit to commute to work, even though
                 it's faster to drive straight to work all the way.
                 in order to transfer to public transit to commute to work,
                 even though it's faster to drive all the way to work.  So my
                 gas-guzzling SUV guzzles much less gas than some people's
                 sedans.
              \_ Your other car is 30% more fuel efficient. "Not that much
                 worse"? What would be "that" much, 15mpg? 10mpg? Not that
                 I'm advocating either way. My car ~= 25mpg. I also live
                 close to work though.
                 Also note that even for the same MPG, emissions levels can
                 still vary quite a bit between cars.
           \_ I live and work in San Francisco. Not selling pottery either.
              I usually ride my bicycle to work, but take Muni/BART on
              days when I don't feel like riding. I use CityShare about
              twice a month when I need to shop. I don't own a car. It
              isn't really that hard to do. -ausman
              \_ City CarShare is pretty rad, but I'm not sure how it would
                 work in lower density areas.
              \_ You never drive anywhere for recreation?
                 \_ I rent or borrow a car to do that. Honestly, this is
                    the only real change I have noticed: I rarely leave
                    The City and when I do it is usually to get on an
                    airplane. Oh, I go to Berkeley alot for Cal games,
                    but I use BART for that.
                    \- I live in SF. I drive to the gym 4 blocks away.
                        \_ You don't really live in SF, do you? South of
                           Cesar Chavez and West of Divis don't count. Where
                           in "SF" do you live?
                           \_ Who told you they don't count? Not an SF native,
                              that is for sure. Most of the native San
                              Franciscans grew up South of Cesar Chavez
                              or West of Divis.
                        \_ Don't want to get too bulked up on your way there!
              \_ How do you get your kids around?  How do you shop for a
                 family of 4 + pets?  How do you move anything bigger than
                 a backpack to/from your apartment?  How happy is your wife
                 living in an apartment with a few kids + pets?  How can you
                 afford to pay a mortgage in the city so close to work?
                 \_ There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than
                    are dreamt of in your philosophy.  -tom
                    are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.  -tom
                    \_ So you suggest ausman not have kids, pets, a spouse,
                       large objects, a wife, or buy a house?  That's really
                       deep.  Maybe he can live near a lake and write poetry
                       and contemplate his Oneness with the universe while
                       RIDE BIKE! through the forest?
                       \_ Regardless of what Tom or anyone thinks, you need a
                          car for a lot of things.  However, you do _not_ need
                          a fucking SUV for wives/childrens/dogs/cellos or
                          whatever.  You need a truck for hauling sacks of
                          turf and wheelbarrows and lumber, which is what those
                          things were originally for, not picking up lattes
                          for the office.  I smile every time I see some
                          idiot in a monster like that with a $90 gas tank
                          (or whatever it translates to.)  All the farmers and
                          handyman types here drive cars like Subaru estates
                          or small minivans.  -John
                          \_ Sure you do. Because modern American wives/
                             children/dogs/cellos are three times bigger
                             than they were when you were growing up or
                             in other countries.
                          \_ I "need" a car about twice a month. It is silly
                             to pay $400-500 a month for something I use twice.
                             \_ $400-500/mo? Why would you get such an
                                expensive car? If you get a decent cheap small
                                car, maybe a couple years old, it could last
                                a very long time especially considering low
                                usage.
                       \_ RIDE BIKE! is for people who do things like
                          not live in LA or not play cello. -- ilyas
                          \_ My brother plays drums and lives without a car.
                             But we don't need any more proof that you're
                             incapable of thinking creatively.  -tom
                             \_ i bet the bum lives in your parents
                                garage and will keep bumming rides
                                to move his shit around when he is
                                asked to leave.
                             \_ Yeah, I am sure exposure to temperature
                                extremes won't be bad for the cello.  Or God
                                forbid you go professional, and have to tow
                                a 50,000 dollar box of wood as fragile as an
                                eggshell, and sensitive to everything.  I mean
                                that can only end well. -- ilyas
                       \_ I'm not suggesting ausman do anything; it sounds
                          like he's already done a pretty good job making
                          life decisions.  I think it's pretty sad that some
                          people can't imagine living any way other than
                          what they're accustomed to.  I know plenty of
                          people living car-free, and it is entirely possible
                          to have a rich, fulfilling life, including kids and
                          pets, without owning a car.  In fact I would go
                          further to say that the car-free people I know
                          tend to have lives richer and more fulfilling than
                          the average.  -tom
                 \_ Pets are luxury items.
                      \_ So are kids, grocery, etc.
                         \_ If only the 3rd world knew they were living in
                            such luxury!
                            \_ So are pets.
                            \_ Here in US, you need $$$ to raise a kid.  A kid costs
                               $1M in your lifetime.
                               \_ That's only an ideal. Look at all the poor
                                  people having kids. Your tax dollars at
                                  work.
                                  \_ Or, rather, lack of tax dollars for decent
                                     sex ed/condom programs.
                                     \_ I don't think so. I think a lot of them
                                        choose to have kids regardless.
                               \_ Pure BS.  I guess that it's possible
                                  that some people spend that much on
                                  kids, but my parents raised 5 kids on
                                  $40,000 a year, in CA.  All that with
                                  no particular government help to speak
                                  of. (Usual stuff I suppose, we went to
                                  CA public colleges, so tution was fairly
                                  cheap, etc.)
                                  \_ Yeah, me too, but my mom telling me the
                                     Alpo from the discount warehouse was
                                     really "extra chunky corn flakes" got a
                                     bit old.  :-)  -John
                 \_ I don't have any kids yet, maybe I will have to buy a
                    car when I get one, but I hope not. I see lots of Noe
                    Valley parents loading their kids onto the J every
                    morning in their strollers, so I know it can be done.
                    It might not be possible with two working parents. I
                    already told you how I shop. City CarShare has trucks
                    and SUVs for larger loads. Since I live in a walkable
                    city, there is a butcher and produce store less than
                    two blocks away for day to day things. I live in half a
                    2500 sq ft duplex we bought three years ago. 1250 sq ft is
                    plenty of space for three people, but if my family gets too
                    big I might have to move. I am not going to post details
                    of my financial situation on the motd but if you are
                    really curious, you are welcome to write me and ask.
                    Our total cost of mortgage minus rents from the bottom
                    unit is less than our rents apart were. -ausman
                    \_ Thank you for a serious and thoughtful reply, unlike
                       some others here.
        \_ As I've said over and over again, the problem is not that gas
           gas costs $4, $5, $6, etc. per gallon for personal driving.  The
           problem is that it inflates the price of everything.  I can handle
           even $20/gallon gasoline.  However, if you raise my food, water,
           electric, etc., bills by 6x that's a totally different story.
           \_ Gas is $6/gallon in Europe and somehow people there survive.
              I guess you could argue their standard of living is lower,
              but they don't think so. Our standard of living is going
              to go down, too.
              \_ Being a tall/long-legged person; I am pretty much
                 stuck with driving an SUV due to headroom  issues. It sucks
                 paying >$50 a week in gas; but I have got no other
                 alternative w/o adding another hour a day to the commute.
                 I hear that they are coming out with hybrid SUVs..
              \_ European commuters pay $6/gallon (or $9/gallon in Holland),
                 but many other industrial consumers do not due to tax rebates.
                 They can always lower their taxes, we have nothing to lower.
                 Like I said, driving is a luxury, eating is not.  Europe also
                 has had decades to design all their cities and infrastructure
                 around expensive gas.  Almost everything in America is setup
                 to require cheap energy to function.
                 \_ Right. It's a good thing the folks who laid out London after
                    the fire of 1666 took high gas prices into account in
                    their planning.
                        \_ Oh, they had a oil based economy before 1666? I
                           learn something new every day on the motd.  Cheap
                           energy is a modern, temporary phenomenon.
        \_ A friend of mine was 6'5" and borrowed my Honda Civic and said he
           had no problem with headroom ... He drives a Subaru Forrester now.
           \_ Speaking as a 6'4" person, a Honda Civic is perfectly fine -
              I drove one in comfort for 4 years.  The Mini Cooper was also
              pretty comfortable.  The only car that I've seen that I doubt
              I could drive under most circumstances was the Lotus Elise,
              but that's a $40,000 toy.  --lye
              \- I think people who can afford [as opposed to those who buy
                 but cannot afford] +$40k cars are not significantly affected
                 but cannot afford] +$40k cars are really not at all affected
                 by the gasoline price increase. To arbitrarily pick a number,
                 if you make $100k/yr, does gas being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
                 if you make $100k/yr, does gast being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
                 you at all? This delta is less than their latte/imported beer/
                 fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, higher
                 fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, increase
                 oil prices affect the cost of living in otherways, but I
                 still dont think this affects the even moderately well off.
                 Now obviously there could be other effect [like say if you
                 work for an airlines] but the main effect is not from incr
                 cost of living/out of pocket costs. ok tnx.
                 fancy vodka budget/premium.
                 \_ Of course it will hit the poor more, like any price
                    increases in staples. However, there are lot of places
                    it can affect the rich, too. Even if you don't, say,
                    own a trucking company you might own a yacht. Are
                    those people going to be on food stamps? No, but like
                    anyone else they are on a budget. If they take the
                    boat out less often (say) then the marina loses money,
                    the yacht club loses money (no mai tais), the tackle
                    shop loses money and so on. A lot of wealthy people
                    are wealthy because they pay attention to the bottom
                    line, not because they ignore rising expenses.
                    \- my point is not "it hits the poor more", it is
                       "the marginal increase in living costs going to
                       higher auto gas costs is trivial for medium income
                       people among bay area high tech people" i.e. the sloda
                       demographic. the increase price of gas increased the
                       per capita cost of a gas for a camping trip by $5/person
                       [500mi of driving].
                       \_ Might not be trivial if, say, you own a boat,
                          which was my example. It directly depends on
                          how much gasoline you use (or need for your
                          business) and indirectly depends on how much
                          gasoline others use (and need for their
                          businesses). Price at the pump to fill up the
                          SUV isn't really the issue.
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39212 Activity:moderate
8/22    Camry Hybrid will be an I4:
        http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/toyota_camry_hy.php
        \_ A V4 would be one of the dumbest engine configuration you
           could think of. It would take the worst of an inline-4 and
           a V6 and put it into one engine.
        \_ A Camry with a 4 cylinder is a slow Camry.
           \_ They should offer it with CVT at least. That'd be cool.
           \_ Not necessarily.  Toyota 0wns hybrid tech.  I bet they can make
              a 4 cyl hybrid that performs as well as the V6 in some aspects.
              (You'll always be able to say "but the V6 does 65 mph -> 85 mph
               better!  Or some such.  In practice, V6 Camrys have great low-end
               torque and only modest high-end, which a hybrid would do a good
               job matching).
        \_ Camry is right. Accord V6 hybrid is a muscle car, which really
           defeats the purpose of hybrids. People who want power, buy
           power cars, and people who want gas saving cars, buy the Prius.
           The Accord Hybrid is a total failure from the marketing
           perspective.
           \_ Hmm. I disagree. I would've never considered a hybrid with
              a hamster motor, but when someone throws a 400 HP V-8 hybrid
              in a sports car or truck I'll be interested. Everyone likes
              to save money on gas if performance is not compromised.
              \_ The gas savings gets eaten by the car cost. And possibly
                 maintenance.
                 \_ Some people get hybrids because of environmental savings,
                    not money savings.
        \_ enlighten me please.  Is there any V-4 engine out there?  I
           thought most of 4-cylinder engine are inline.
           \_ You're right. There isn't and for good reason. A V-4 would
              be like combining two inline-2 engines which, by themselves,
              are unbalanced. Combine two unbalanced engines together
              orthoganally and you'll have quite a bit of vibration.
              It's an extremely inefficient configuration.
              \_Umm...your mistaken, I have a V4 motorcycle engine that works
                just fine.
              \_ maybe they're gonna use a balance shaft to reduce vibration?
                 \_ That's going to be one giant ass balancer shaft. Generally,
                    car makers aim for the engine config with the minimum
                    vibration without the use of a balancer shaft because
                    that degrades the performance of the engine. Inline-4s
                    are the worst (among production car engines) and V-6s
                    aren't that great either. Inline-6 and boxers are self-
                    balanced which is one of the reasons why BMW and Subaru
                    use these engines.
                    \_ My '96 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L has I-6.
        \_ I can't find where the article says the engine is a V instead of an
           I.
           \_ I am a car IDIOT. I know almost NOTHING about cars other than
              the fact that you need to put gas in the gas tank and air in
              the tires. I thought 4 cylinder == v4 b/c the shorthand for #
              of cylinders is was 'v'. Sorry for any confusion. -op
        \_ Yeah, but it has the power of a V1!
           \_ That's Vergeltungswaffe 1 Fi 103 to YOU!
              \_ Fi 103 was the manned version.  I'm not joking--the dude was
                 supposed to bail out.  -John the Nitpicker
                 \_ Fickt nicht mit dem Raketenmensch!
2005/8/20-22 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39197 Activity:nil
8/19    Prius GT:
        http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/toyota_prius_gt.php
        \_ "fuel economy remains essentially unchanged... with normal driving!"
           Cool!
2005/8/18-20 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39162 Activity:low
8/18    Forget about Prius.  Does the VW TDI diesel engine Jetta and
        Passat help save fuel costs?  are there drawbacks?  diesel
        seems to be about the same price as the lowest grade gasoline,
        but does it really run 30% further per gallon?
        \_ you can convert diesel engines to run on vegetable oil.  You
           need to start and end the day on diesel to clean out the engine,
           but once it heats up you switch over to a second gas tank, which
           you could possibly fill for free if you know anyone in the
           restaurant business.  ...I have no idea what level of emissions
           this produces, though.  -sax
        \_ yes, and you get almost no power as a bargin!
           \_ The Prius seems to have even less.  76 vs. 100 BHP.
           \_ HP ratings don't tell the whole story. You get lots
              of torque at low RPM.
              \_ Yup.  Typical for diesel engines.
        \_ Where are you located? Everywhere I've looked Diesel is more
           expensive than Premium these days.
           \_ chicago.  maybe california has more environment tax?
              \_ Yep.  Diesel #2 (auto diesel) is more than premium unleaded
                 in CA and has been for about a year or two.
              \_ Close.  It is more tax, but road tax, not environment tax.
        \_ Diesel has more energy per gram. I don't think it is 30% but
           it is quite a bit. Also, the combustion process for diesel is
           more efficient, extracting more of the energy and wasting less
           as exhaust and heat. -ausman
2005/8/17-22 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39156 Activity:nil
8/17    Don't buy a Prius! It costs over $5000 to replace the battery,
        which you'll have to do when you reach 100,000 miles or 10 years.
        Because the efficiency depends on the battery, your mileage WILL
        decrease in time, and when you take in account of the extra $5000
        you'll have to spend, this makes Prius a pretty awful investment.
        Buy it if you want to reduce gasoline consumption. Don't buy it
        if you think it'll save you money in the long run. It won't.
        \_ Does this mean there will be a lot of used Prius's for sale in
           ~ 5 years?
        \_ What about battery consumption?
        \_ overall, which is cheaper to maintain till 150k miles?
           Corolla or Prius?
           \_ I don't own a Prius, but considering that it is a much more
              complex machinery, I'd say Corolla.  Corolla's gas milage is
              really not bad at all.  In the 5 years I've owned my Corolla,
              I've not had a single mechanical problem.
        \_ A CAR IS NOT AN INVESTMENT!
        \_ When it's $10/gallon, $5k replacement battery is considered spare change.
        \_ When it's $10/gallon, $5k replacement battery is considered spare
           change.
           \_ I thought this was about environmental cost, not money cost. if
              it's about money cost fuck the Prius. How environmentally
              friendly is all this battery production and disposal?
2005/8/17-22 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39146 Activity:nil
8/17    Solar powered Prius Project:
        http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.php
        \_ Why not put one more panel on the hood?
2005/8/16-17 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39133 Activity:high
8/15    So I am suddenly in the market for a new car.  Looking at the insight
        and prius. pros, cons? urls with facts to backup opinions? The insight
        is listed at 55+ mpg, whereas the prius is 45.
        \_ Looks like you can't wait.  If you could wait until Jan 1st,
           2006, you can benefit from ~$2500 tax credit (not deduction)
           for the Prius (thanks for the new Energy Bill).  This should
           for the Prius (thanks to the new Energy Bill).  This should
           offset some of the price premium.
        \_ The Prius is often cited as excellently engineered in all respects.
        \_ The Prius is more expensive (~ $5K) than other similarly sized
           cars. Even if gas goes to $5 per gallon, you will have to buy
           1000 gallons to make up the difference. You might want to consider
           that when making your choice (its not like a Corolla/Civic are
           bad cars on their own, they get ~ 30 MPG).
           \_ You also have to include tax and feel-good benefits.
              \_ There is a tax benefit to driving a prius? I didn't know
                 that. Do you know how much it is? (Other than the Jan 1
                 benefit mentioned above).
                 One thing I read about in the paper today is that w/ a
                 Prius you can drive in the carpool lane, which makes the
                 Prius look a bit more appealing financially.
           \_ What about the Civic Hybrid?  -- !OP
              \_ The Civic Hybrid is ~ $4K more than a regular civic so
                 you probably want to take that into acct. Also the Civic
                 Hybrid isn't as efficient as the Prius so it will take
                 you longer to recover your investment.
                 I guess my main concern re Prius/Civic Hybrid is that
                 I'd have to keep the car well past 70K miles to make
                 back the money and I've never kept a car w/ that many
                 miles on it b/c I've always started to run into probs
                 around 65K miles.
        \_ I'm not knowledgeable enough about the details to informatively
           comment, but, philosophically, I think the Insight is the
           more appealing car. The Prius seems to be trying to be all
           things to all people -- it's more or less a normal Corolla size
           automobile with a hybrid engine; the Insight, OTOH, seems willing
           to give up some of the "conveniences" of normal automobiles for
           better fuel effeciency (Insight is quite small, has 3-cylinder
           engine, etc), and I appreciate the gutsyness. There was a good
           review of the Insight in ArsTechnica a few years back:
                http://arstechnica.com/reviews/3q00/honda/insight-1.html
           \_ Yeah, except the Insight is hella gay, duuuuude.
              \_ Just paint some bimbo pics on the sides.
                 \_ Even better - bimbo mudflaps.
                    \_ Talk about mudflaps, my girl's got 'em.
                       \_ Tell her to go get a buttlift.
                          \_ Or an anal bleach!
2005/8/15-17 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39132 Activity:nil
8/15    300 HP Hybrid:
        http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000263054348
        "Mad props to these [high school] kids for giving a new meaning to
         pimpin' my ride' WORD."
        \_ 0-60 under 4 sec, 50mpg!
2005/8/9-11 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39073 Activity:moderate
8/9     110 MPG in a Prius:
        <DEAD>www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm<DEAD>
        \_ Doing this sort of thing with a fully charged battery is meaningless.
           You should start with a flat battery.
           \_ Uh... why?  It's about pushing a limit, not about practical use
              \_ Because MPG is a measurement of how much gas you use
                 traditionally.  The battery is only full because you used gas
                 before the measurement started in order to charge it.  Thus
                 you're not getting an accurate measurement.  What if they only
                 drove 5 miles and did it all on battery.  They got INFINITY
                 mpg!  A new and unbeatable record!
                 \_ Er, the person below is right.  They never talked about
                    initial battery state.  And for a prius is flat battery
                    a reasonable initial state?
                    \_ I think the only fair test of MPG is to start and end
                       with the battery in the exact same state.  Flat -> flat
                       or Full -> Full; it doesn't matter which.
                       \_ Then we'll have to find another report that gives
                          their start and end battery states.
                 \_ I think they should start at the top of a steep hill
                    to boot and just coast to the bottom.
           \_ Proof positive that motd assholes will complain, nitpick, and
              bitch about absolutely anything and everything.
              \_ The claim is "110 MPG" and a link to the method this was
                 determined.  Your "nitpicker" called bullshit on that claim.
           \_ Where does it say the battery is fully charged?
           \_ Whatever, it is still k3wl.
        \_ whatever, its still a *GAS* car.  Incremental improvements in gas
           mileage are going to get overwhelmed by increasing numbers of
           drivers.  Further work on gas mileage is just bandaghing the
           infected wound, not dealing with the real probelm.
           \_ Yeah, see, generally (though I'll concede 'not always')
              technology has this tendency to move forward in incremental
              steps.  I mean, seriously, do you honestly think it's better to
              wait 20 years for a revolutionary step up while we get
              "overwhelmed by increasing numbers of drivers" and still use
              the same inefficient technologies?  I guess I'm just not seeing
              what alternatives there are that can be implemented _now_....
           \_ It's a stopgap.  When you perfect your high yield, cheap, easily
              produced solar cell, call us.
           \_ RIDE BIKE!
              \_ What about drive hybrid diesel?
           \_ Yes, it's an efficient gas car.  As opposed to what?  An
              electric car?  Fuel cell car?  Both of those ultimately use
              fossil fuels too.  Or are you expecting a solar car or a
              car powered by Mr. Fusion?
              \_ A fuel cell car gets its energy from wherever you get the
                 energy to make the hydrogen, so it could be nuclear, oil,
                 solar, coal, gas, wind, hydro or a mixtures of all.
                 Before you start flaming me, please note that I am not the
                 OP, and I think hybrids are cool, I was just pointing out
                 the innacuracy in your statement about fuel cells.
                 \_ It might be a technical inaccuracy, but in practice, the
                    above poster is right.
                    \_ No.  Depending on where you live, a majority of your
                       power could very well be from something other than
                       oil.  Also, by switching to fuel cells, you are setting
                       up a system where any new energy that comes online
                       such as clean coal or some crazy fusion scheme or
                       whatever is instantly the power source for cars,
                       without the painfuly slow R&D process currently underway
                       to make fuel cells compete gas engines.
                       \_ Do you know what "in practice" means?
                          You're talking about splitting hydrogen from water.
                          This is much more inefficient still than splitting
                          from NG.
2005/7/22-25 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:38769 Activity:nil
7/22    Eco Friendly Bling-Bling Rides:
        http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/35/a-lewis.php
2005/7/13-15 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:38599 Activity:low
7/13    Info about the 2006 Civic Hybrid:
        http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/07/information_abo.php
        Verdict - Not as k3w1 as a Prius but not bad
        \_ Crap!  You know why? because it's still a fucking car.  Make a
           car that comsumes only trash, emits a sweet smelling mixture of
           oxygen and pure gold, and I'll still say it's crap because cars
           will always suck ass.  Making them pollute less is just a distraction
           from their infinite suckage.
        \_ Where is my Odessey Hybrid or Sienna Hybrid???
        \_ Look, they can use whatever fancy shmacy engine all they want
           but the fact of the matter is if their bottom line sucks then
           no one is going to buy their shit. When I say bottom line, I
           mean mileage, cost, and usefulness. If they can't get better
           mileage [than a Prius], lower price, and at lease same
           capacity then people will not buy their crap. Until Honda
           understands this, their Hybrid Civic will just sit in
           the dealer lot like they are doing now. -Honda Owner, Disillusioned
           \_ And the fact that they waited so long after Prius came out
              to produce their new Civic shows that they're way behind
              Toyota in hybrid technology. The new and improved Prius is
              coming out soon, which means whatever minor incremental gain
              Civic has over Prius will be only be short lived.  -pp
              \_ What's different about this "new" hybrid Civic from the
                 "old" hybrid Civic?
                 \_ The article OP posted describes the differences.
        \_ "Biggest novelty probably is that during light crusing the engine
           shuts down and the car can be powered by the electric motor alone.
           This is not quite like the Prius, which can use electricity only
           from a complete stop and travel relatively long distances at
           moderate speed on battery alone, but it's a step forward."  I don't
           get it.  Is it saying that the Prius way (being able to use
           electricity only from a complete stop) is better then Civic way?
           Why?
           \_ Maybe they mean "which can use 'electricity only'", meaning
              the Prius is still more advanced.
              \_ Oops!  Pardon my reading comprehension.
              \_ Notice Honda keeps talking about how good their engine while
                 Toyota talks about a COMPLETE redesign, from new frames to
                 extremely good aerodynamic fairings to the integrated
                 electro/gas system. If you compare the HP output between the
                 Prius and the current Civic, you'll see that the Civic is
                 still primarily a gasoline powered car (over 85%) while the
                 Prius balances power between the engine and the motor. This
                 is the same with Honda Accord, where they get their
                 efficiency primarily through their efficient engine. In
                 another word, the Prius is a truly hybrid car, whereas the
                 Honda hybrid is still primarily a gasoline powered car. And
                 with Toyota's employee and R&D size that is easily 3-4X size
                 of Honda, it is understandable why Toyota is kicking ass.
                 Toyota to Honda is like Intel to Cyrix.
                 \_ well, they're both "primarily a gas powered car"
                 \_ but toyota will never be an elite rice car
2005/7/8-12 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Motorcycle] UID:38495 Activity:moderate
7/8     Check this out, eco-mobile going 200MPH and 55MPG. It's a motorcycle
        with sleek fairings. Make sure to check out the videos!
        http://www.peraves.ch
        \_ I've seen these around Zurich; they're street legal here.  They
           look tremendously cool--the little training wheels retract into
           the fairings at low speeds.  They cost between $50k-$70k.  But for
           some fun, read http://www.peraves.ch/monot.htm and ask yourself if
           you belong to the group of "buyers in circumstances found suitable
           by personal contact".  It sounds more arrogant in German.  -John
           \_ I think this probably means they only want famous or
              influential people buying their products (no sale to engineers)
           \_ Driven by people who look like would-be-Porsche-[old]-owners?
              \_ Now that you mention it, the guys I've seen driving this all
                 did look like distinguished 50-ish executive types.  Or it
                 could just mean they want to make sure you have the cash to
                 pay for it.  -John
                 \_ Interesting. I once saw an ad on I-60 that says
                    "Porsche owners are not old. They're just successful."
                    Since you're close by, John, can you do a survey for
                    all of us? Give them a call, imply that you're young and
                    not an executive type but you're really interested in
                    buying the vehicle. See how well they treat you, and
                    report back on motd. Thanks!
                    \_ I already did once.  My uptake of Porsche owners here is
                       that they're generally mid-50s, confident, and don't
                       speed.  When I tried to buy an older 911 once (ended up
                       not being able to find a satisfactory one) I was treated
                       like shit by 2-3 third rate garages, and received very
                       enthusiastically by both private sellers and shops--
                       especially the older dudes seemed to be really happy
                       that someone younger appeared interested in a Porsche--
                       for several owners I've talked to, their car is like a
                       baby, sort of like with Saturn owners but far less
                       spooky and cultish.  -John
                       \_ So what did you end up getting?
                          \_ A TT.  I really like it.  I am still thinking of
                             buying an old 911 someday, or a TVR Chimaera if
                             I ever have the cash and space for a second, more
                             reliable car.  -John
                             \_ I also like the TT. It's a very cute, adorable
                                non-threatening sporty car. I've seen a lot of
                                pretty blonde bombshells driving one.
                                \_ http://www.myaudittsucks.com
                                   \_ The models for US export are from a
                                      satellite factory in Kyrgizstan.  -John
                                   \_ Wow!  A breathtaking number of spelling
                                      mistakes and grammatical errors just
                                      on the front page.
                                      \_ I guess that makes him a liar?
                                         \_ It certainly makes him an idiot.
                                            I'm not talking about the finer
                                            points of subjunctive clauses here,
                                            I'm talking about someone that
                                            spells "today" "to day."  Also,
                                            why should I believe some random
                                            crank on the web?  On first viewing
                                            this looks like the "don't buy a
                                            BMW" guy, who was just trying to
                                            extort BMW into giving him money
                                            to shut up.
                                            \_ I am not sure spelling and
                                               grammatical ability translate
                                               to intelligence. UCB is a
                                               good example of that. But, hey,
                                               I don't have a TT. What do I
                                               care?
                                            \_ Early model TTs had an annoying
                                               propensity towards flinging
                                               themselves off the road, and
                                               their rear axles would randomly
                                               break, but that's fixed.  -John
                             \_ How about an Ecomobile
                                \_ I don't need threatening.  I need fast,
                                   reliable, spacious, doesn't use tons of gas,
                                   looks good.  Fits the bill.  And I can't fit
                                   a shitload of {PCs, luggage, dead bodies}
                                   in an Ecomobile's trunk.  -John
                             \_ This car is too cool: http://csua.org/u/co3
                                \_ Porsche being cool is not news.
                    \_ Apparently, Porsche owners do not get laid:
                       http://csua.org/u/co0 (sfgate.com)
        \_ That's awesome!  I wonder if this thing is 'allowed' to
        \_ That's awesome!  I wonder if this thing is legally allowed to
           maneuver around cars between lanes, like a regular motorcycle.
             -- ilyas
           \_ These things are on the track, so they're probably still going
              through street certifications. I for one would love to see
              these vehicles on the street as they're not as annoying to
              ride as motorcycles. I'm a rider and I HATE wind noise when
              going above 65MPH. The wind noise at 80MPH feels like 2-3 times
              louder than engines, and the turbulence inside the helmet at
              100MPH is just ANNOYING. My other complaint with motorcycles is
              that there's no enclosure, so you have to wear thick leather
              gear to protect yourself and it either gets really cold or
              really hot when you ride. Also I hate it when bugs or dust get
              onto my neck. I hope they make these things street legal ASAP.
              \_ Yeah, I would buy one.  The one thing that prevents me from
                 getting a motorcycle is the safety issue.  This thing is
                 probably a lot safer than a bike, but also less safe than a
                 car.  -- ilyas
                 \_ I don't see how tiny little plastic fairings will make
                    that vehicle a lot safer than motorcycles, although I
                    do have to admit that when the eco-mobile low sided it
                    was a lot less spectacular than when I low-sided my
                    motorcycle.
                    \_ Yeah, saying something is 'a lot safer than a motorcycle'
                       truly does not say much.  Those things are wheeled
                       coffins, imo. -- ilyas
                       \_ You are very smart!
                       \_ Yeah pretty much. But I think they probably are safer
                          in most crashes; you don't get thrown into the path
                          of vehicles and you have a seatbelt. But no crumple
                          zones or the like; I would like to see a video of
                          one getting broadsided in an intersection by a cell-
                          phone using SUV driver. Maybe it bounces away like
                          a ping-pong ball.
                          \_ They say it's kevlar/glass-weave composite
                             monocoque with a bunch of protection bars.  When I
                             took a look at one at an intersection, it looked a
                             lot like a glider cockpit.  Since this thing is
                             pretty light, wouldn't it not have to crumple?
                             The Smart doesn't have any crumple zones either-it
                             appears to rely on being very rigid.  -John
                             \_ I think the idea of crumple zone is that you
                                don't want the vehicle to be too rigid such
                                that the vehicle decelerates the driver's body
                                too hard.  With a crumple zone, the driver's
                                deceleration is lower.  Whether the vehicle is
                                light or not doesn't change this.
              \_ It's called an AUTOMOBILE. Stupid.
           \_ Actually, in CA, "lane splitting" is just defined as a
              passing manuver.  Anything small enough to do it is allowed
              to.  It just happens that pretty much the only thing small
              and fast enough is a motorcycle.  This thing looks a bit
              wide though.
        \_ what's the mileage of typical motorcycles?
           \_ My EX500 (top 120MPH) gets 45MPG.
              A typical race ready bikes like Honda 600RR (top ~160MPH)
              gets about 34MPG. Hiyabusa (top ~200MPH) gets even less.
              The biggest problem with motorcycles is DRAG.
           \_ I used to get 75-85MPG on my Honda 250. Top speed was only 75
           \_ I used to get 75MPG on my Honda 250. Top speed was only 75
              though. I get 30MPG on my Ducati around town, 45 on the
              highway. -ausman
              \_ A Prius almost gets 60MPG, which puts most motocycles to
                 shame. And while I'm at it, I really hate Ducati's dry
                 clutch, it rattles a lot when you're slow and it is
                 annoying as hell.
        \_ http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/30/autos-73731.htm
           "A third Eco is scheduled to be delivered within weeks to a Denver
           businessman whose wife, so the story goes, was so incensed with
           her husband spending so much on the new contraption that she left
           him."
2005/5/28-31 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37877 Activity:nil
5/27    Nissan to make hybrid Altima:
        http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/05/hybrid_version.php
2005/5/16-17 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37706 Activity:moderate
5/16    Make sure you get the firmware updated on your Prius:
        http://tinyurl.com/cfd5r (cnn.com)
        \_ Wow.  Didn't expect this kind of things to happen on a Toyota.
        \_ Pretty scary if it happens when you're trying to cut in front of a
           semi while entering a freeway.
           \_ I personally think the increased use of software in cars is
              a bad trend.  Most software is nowhere near as reliable as
              mechanical controls or electronic controls and the potential
              for unintended or undetectable failures is high.
              I'm thinking by next car should be a willy's jeep :-)
              \_ Maybe you should stop flying then, because new Boeings and
                 ALL Airbuses are controlled by electronics, without the
                 possibility of manual over-ride.
                 \_ I pretty much avoid airbus flights whenever possible.
                    Computer control on the new Boeings does have me
                    worried, but the way I look at it a failure of the
                    computer control on a plane means I'm dead, while
                    the failure of the computer control in a car means,
                    I will probably live but will lose a leg an arm or
                    be bound to a wheelchair. I prefer dead to cripple.
              \_ Yeah, I heard the Jeep Willy could run even with a punctured
                 radiator.  My Cherokee has only okay reliability, though.
        \_ Yermom likes to download the firmware in my Penis.
2005/5/14-16 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37684 Activity:nil
5/14    Fuel cell that runs on vitamin k3:
        http://tinyurl.com/d6oef
        \_ ketamine?
2005/5/13-15 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37664 Activity:high
5/13    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/12/tech/main694925.shtml
        Toyota to produce Hybrid Camry. Honda is FUCKED. First of all
        the Civic Hybrid (a quickly designed crap) pales in comparison
        to the most technological advanced Prius, and their Accord Hybrid
        sucks in terms of mileage (it doesn't even qualify for the 45MPG
        requirement for carpool lane). Honda is FUCKED. How depressing.
                                        -Honda supporter, 1988-2005.
        \_ So what?  I knew that two years ago.
        \_ Qualifying for carpool lane?  I thought qualification is based on
           emission level, not MPG.  A ZEV gas-guzzler qualifies while a high-
           mileage hybrid car with not-so-low emission won't.
           \_ California passed legislation allowing hybrids into carpool
              lane if the mpg is >= 45.  It's not in effect yet waiting
              for federal approval.  --paulwang
              \_ What a retarded law. Why would they specify hybrids?
                 Why not just >=45mpg, or based on emissions? Typical stupid
                 government. Just like when they mandated EV's and then had
                 to backpedal out of that idiocy. And carpool lanes should
                 be used for encouraging carpooling, not environmental shit.
                 How much more gas is wasted by having two lanes of slow
                 traffic sitting there that would go faster with the carpool
                 lane open? They also could incentivize it by tweaking the
                 gas guzzler tax to be more stringent.
                 \_ carpool lanes are a scam to get people to vote for
                    highway construction bonds who otherwise wouldn't.
                    As soon as they go in, the hours and requirements start
                    getting reduced.  -tom
                 \_ any vehicle. Motorcycles get on carpool lane.
                 \_ No gas is wasted. Carpool lanes routinely carry
                    more passengers per hour than the other lanes,
                    especially at rush hour.
                    \_ I don't know about the freeways, but at least this is
                       true for the Bay Bridge, where during commute hours more
                       people pass through the carpool lanes on the left and
                       right ends of the toll plaza than all the other lanes
                       combined.
        \_ I wish Toyota had a Hybrid model when I bought my 2005 Sienna.
        \_ I've said it many times before, a hybrid is just a more efficient
           gas engine.  Why should they get any special treatment?
           \_ incentive for auto makers to build more efficient cars.
           \_ incentive for auto makers to build more efficient cars. Since
              tree huggers have a difficult time getting legislation to
              punish polluters, the next best thing they can do is getting
              legislation to reward those who pollute less. If your point was
              "What does higher efficiency/less pollution have anything to do
              with carpool lane/reducing traffic", you're right.
           \_ Motorcycles also get to use the carpool lane.  We also don't
              have to get smog checks.
              \_ You don't survive crashes. Use of the carpool lane is
                 a small reward in exchange for your life.  My dad rides
                 and w/ the number of near misses he's had in bay area
                 traffic, I keep telling him he's crazy to keep riding.
                 \_ maybe he's an adrenaline junky. Adrenaline Dad.
                    \_ "The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it
                       because the only people who really know where it is
                       are the ones who have gone over.  The others - the
                       living - are those who pushed their control as far
                       as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled
                       back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to
                       when it came time to choose between Now and Later."
                         --Hunter S. Thompson, from "Hell's Angels"
                  \_ I have been riding for 15 years, crashed only once
                     and walked away from it. But I probably don't ride
                     like Hunter S. Thompson either. -ausman
                     \_ You are very lucky. I've seen several less
                        fortunate people on 85 in the last 10 yrs.
        \_ The Honda Accord isn't designed to be fuel efficient, it's
           designed to have better performance, right?
        \_ I still don't understand what the big deal about the current
           set of hybrids is.  It seems like a gimmick rather an a real
           long term soln to the problem of foreign oil dependancy. Oil
           is a non-renewable resource (abiotic theories aside) and all
           the hybrids will do is to stretch out our supply. It seems
           that all the effort would be better spent on making more cng
           or bio-diesel cars or hybrids w/ cng and b-d.
           \_ Is natural gas reserve in the world larger than oil reserve?
              \_ Not all cng is taken from the reserves; it can be made
                 from corn, &c.
        \_ when you got the chance, you should hear some of the story
           of Toyota's earlier hybrids... they stall in traffic light,
           they stall on a raining day,etc.  very fun to hear that.
           then again, I don't understand why Toyota is pouring money
           onto this technology.. they are not making money on those
           hybrid car yet, eventhough they are opting to offer hybrid
           option on every single model in the USA line up.
2005/4/21-22 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37296 Activity:high
4/20    Why doesn't someone stick solar cells on hybrid cars?
        \_ I don't think hybrids have such big batteries...  Why add
           an expensive array of solar cells when the gas engine
           charges the batteries just fine?
           \_ Plus it adds weight, and maybe distorts the car's aerodynamic
              shape which increases drag.
        \_ Photovoltaic cells don't generate very much. The surface area of a
           hybrid might provide enough to run the CD player on a sunny day.
        \_ A house-sized system can generate a few kW on a good day.  A single
           horsepower is about 0.75kW.
           \_ You mean a few kWH on a good day? I was producing over 10 KWH
              a day with just a 3.3KW system, and my dad has a 6KW system on
              his house that produces I think approx 20 KwH per day ... He
              pays zero per year for his electricity, only a small bit for
              being connected to the grid.  But for a car it wou'dn't work,
              ordinary gasoline cars need almost an order of magnitude more
              power than a house.  This is why oil is so nice and why
              substitutes are hard without drastically cutting down the power
              requirements.
              \_ How much do the 3.3kW and the 6kW systems cost?
                 \_ I'm putting in a 3.3kW system; after rebates, it
                    comes out to about $18K.  -tom
              \_ No, I mean a few kW will be generated on a good day.  If you
                 generated 10kWH in say 8 hours of usable sun that means you
                 only averaged 1.25kW.  If you were generating the full 3.3kW
                 for 8 hours you would have generated 26.4kWH.  I talked about
                 kW, not kWH because kW, like hp is a unit of power, and is
                 applicable to the way people think about cars.
        \_ because the drag and weight of the solar sells wouldn't make up for
           the energy the generate?  Not to mention the weight.
           Besides, hybrid cars aren't about electric power, they're about
           'more efficient' gas power.   It's silly to think of them as some
           some panacea for energy savings and the environment, because
           ultimately they're still just burning gasoline.
2005/4/20-22 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37290 Activity:high
4/20    Hey MOTD -- Awhile ago, I wrote asking for advice about a new car (I
        was the guy with the Ford Taurus that might have a blown head gasket).
        As it turns out, I did not have a blown head gasket; but several
        people came forward with suggestions for a new car.  In the end, after
        much research, I ended up buying a Honda Accord Hybrid.  It was a
        little bit out of the base price range I had set forward, but you
        know?  It's turning out to be a *fantastic* car.  Whoever suggested
        it -- thank you so much!!!
        \_ Ford's new ad should say: "Ford Taurus. We'll make you love your
           your next new car."
        \_ so what do you like about it?
           \_ For a car of its class, it's got good power, very roomy, very
              comfortable, very quiet (even at speed), decent sound, doesn't
              suck to look at, great gas mileage for a 255hp v6, and with
              luck, will have good reliability.  It's got a number of neat
              comfort/cool/convenience features that just make it easy to
              commute in.  The one complaint I have is that the trunk is a
              little small, and the rear seats don't fold down (that's where
              the batteries are).    -OP
              \_ What gas mileage are you getting?  Can you charge it with AC
                 power supply?
                 \_ I'm getting about 30-32 MPG (I do a pretty even mix of
                    freeway and city street driving...heh...and I've been told
                    I have a lead foot).  I'm taking a long roadtrip to socal
                    this weekend -- I'll get back to you on the sustained
                    freeway MPG.  You don't need to charge it, the car's
                    charger connects automatically when you brake or when you
                    take your foot off the gas.  FWIW, manufacturer's spec
                    claims 29/37.  I suspect that's not too far off from
                    reality (maybe 1-2 MPG on each).    -OP
                    \_ Treadmill dyno tests are never accurate in that
                       respect. They can't simulate wind resistance.
                       \_ Yup...which is why I'm not claiming that it's the
                           same.
                       \_ The tests don't even actually measure the amount of
                          gasoline that's burnt.  They only measure the amount
                          of exhaust and guestimate the amount of gas burnt,
                          which makes low-emission vehicles get higher numbers.
                    \_ For comparison, the non-hybrid Accord has only 240hp and
                       claims only 21/30 MPG.  The hybrid wins.
                       \_ Dang, my fat 1994 Saturn gets 27 on average.
        \_ How much did it cost? what State?
           Although I don't doubt it is a nice car, realize you are
           comparing to an old Taurus.
           \_ Man, I *loved* my old Taurus.  It was a great car that met my
              needs excellently.  It just wasn't making the transition to
              old age very gracefully once it hit 100k.  I'd have bought
              another Taurus were it not for two things: the Taurus as a model
              is being retired, and the exceptional degree of shady
              underhanded business practice at almost every Ford dealership
              I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with.  I mean,
              one expects a dealership to be a den of thieves, but goddamn,
              it was just grotesque.  -OP
           \_ Agreed. Pretty much anything compared to American consumer tech
              is good. The automobile industry now is like what electronic
              industry was 20-30 years ago. While American companies were
              providing superior services, Japanese companies were providing
              goods that required no service. There used to be a time when
              everyone bought from Philco, Westinghouse, Admiral, Emerson,
              General Electric / GE, Sparton, Stromberg-Carlson, Airline,
              Crosley, etc. How many of those companies survived these days?
              Just 2, RCA and Zenith. Nowadays, everyone buys from Sony, Aiwa,
              Panasonic, Fujitsu, Hitachi, etc. I predict the same thing will
              happen to American car companies. They'll fold, one by one,
              because they just can't make shit.
              \_ Except for Chrysler, which is now a German company.  I was
                 highly amused to see the Chrysler 300 being named "car of
                 the year" everywhere.  The general gist of the articles was
                 "Hey, and it's from America!" except that the car is
                 essentially an old Mercedes E series with a softer ride and
                 an American V8.
              \_ Zenith is no longer an American company.
                 \_ Neither is RCA, owned by Thompson, a french (?)
                    conglomerate, with pretty much the worst reliability when
                    it comes to electronics.
                    \_ WOW, ok. So Americans don't make nice foreign quality
                       electronics anymore, and the auto industry is becoming
                       the same. What's next, software and processors? Hmmm...
                       \_ 1) Music
                          2) Movies
                          3) Microcode (software)
                          4) High-speed pizza delivery
                          \_ Nice Snowcrash reference, but...
                             1) Music industry is dying.  CD sales are off
                                25% in the last few years, and already 8% this
                                year.
                             2) More and more movies are being made offshore
                                and out of the country in places like Toronto
                                and New Zealand.  The reason?  Avoiding the
                                moviemaker unions.
                             3) Bangalore is nipping at our heels.
                             4) Well, you got me there.  Soon we will all be
                                delivering pizza.
                       \_ heh, apparently pizza hut had their asses handed
                          to them in Thailand last decade.  they franchised
                          and the franchisee dumped them and formed their
                          own chain.  pizza hut eventually got back into
                          the market but doesn't sell like the local.
                          nothing is sacred.
                       \_ James Kunstler always goes on about how you can't
                          have a nation of tanning hut managers as the basis
                          for your economy.
                \_ These American companies died because bozos like you keep
                   buying foreign goods. YOU killed American economy! Damn
                   you unpatriotic foreign goods lovers.     -Patriot
                   \_ If a company makes crappy goods and I'm not a major
                      shareholder or on the board, I have only one way to
                      express my discontent....with my dollars.  I'd rather
                      buy American, but more importantly, I'd rather spend
                      my hard earned cash on shit that actually, you know,
                      WORKS.  I'm not all that sympathetic to a business
                      that refuses to get with the times and do what it has
                      to do to make superior product -- and dies as a
                      result.              -Realistic Patriot
                   \_ My amplifier is USA made, going 9 years now without
                      a problem, a total tank.  Did cost $800 though.  I always
                      buy USA made if the quality is the same or better, and
                      the price isn't too much higher.
                      \_ American Apparel! New store will open on Telegraph
                         on the 7th of May. Could so many skinny jailbait
                         models in softcore poses be wrong?
                         http://www.americanapparel.net
        \_ Yeah, Honda ergonomics and design is just kind of amazing to me.
           Everything just works *right* and is where you expect it
           to be, even if you have never driven a Honda before.
           \_ Unlike Fords..  They seem to make everything backwards just
              to piss me off.
2005/3/31-4/1 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37000 Activity:nil
3/31    How to get the best MPG out of a Toyota Prius:
        http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=448
        Look under "Speed, braking, acceleration, and anticipatory driving".
        \_ Reading about the EPA requiring the battery charge to be the
           same at beg. and end of mileage test made me wonder:  Has anyone
           ever investigated any way to charge the battery using solar or
           heat energy?  We all know that cars get baked in the sun during
           the day.  If there were some way to simply charge the battery
           with this energy, you'd have a remarkably low fuel-consumption
           automobile.  Perhaps some process similar to what idealab did
           with the Stirling engine.
           \_ You could charge using solar, but you;d have to install solar
              cells on the car (of course).  Using heat only works if there's
              a heat difference and some sort of Carnot cycle to exploit it,
              such as a Stirling engine.  That's even more of a pain to
              build into a car than solar panels.
              \_ Plus each square meter of solar panel only captures about
                 120-150 wattHour of energy at full sun.  That is not
                 a lot of energy.  I think the Prius has about 70-80
                 kWh of stored energy in the battery.  That'll take a
                 long while to get any meaningful charge into the battery.
                 Probably cost way too much to do it feasibly.
           \_ There is no good way to do what you say, or we'd build power
              plants that way as well as recharge car batteries.
           \_ Put solar cells on the car roof.  But that adds weight, so how
              efficient it is depends on the driving time vs. parking time
              under the sun.  Another way is to put solar cells at the parking
              location.  But then it's no different from ordinary solar cell
              applications, which is not specific to charging vehicles.
2005/3/30-31 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36966 Activity:nil
3/30    Go hybrid for cheap:
        http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=440
2005/3/23-24 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Computer/SW/Security, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36839 Activity:nil 50%like:36690
3/23    Now you can RIDE ELECTRIC BIKE!
        http://tinyurl.com/59b77 (gizmodo)
        \_ Electric bikes are not new.  -tom
2005/3/7-8 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36552 Activity:low
3/7     Why American car companies are gonna die in a decade or two (but we
        all knew that long time ago right?)
        http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/04/pf/autos/bc.autos.survey.reut
        \_ by that logic, european car companies will die first.
           \_ Yes.
2005/3/2-3 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36491 Activity:nil
3/2     Today's http://www.howstuffworks.com features a "How Firefox Works" page!
2005/2/21-22 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36352 Activity:moderate
2/21    I read an article on FC cars in this months SciAm and I was wondering
        why FC is so hyped in comparison to CNG. AFAIK, CNG is easier to make,
        cheaper to transport and most conventional cars can be converted to
        use it at reasonable price. Are the emissions from CNG cars too high,
        that we have to switch to FC cars or is there another reason? Just
        curious.
        \_ FC=fuel cell, and CNG=compressed natural gas?
           \_ yes.
        \_ I'm all for CNG because it's a readily available technology. BTW
           US doesn't have a lot of natural gas. Iran does. Iran contains the
           world's most abundant natural gas. Go figure...
           \_ You can convert natural gas into diesel.  The world's biggest
              natural gas conversion plant is currently being built on the
              world's biggest natural gas field in Qatar.
           \_ I thought you could make CNG using corn.
        \_ Because we can't pour Billions into CNG research and convince the
           sheeple we are moving towards "energy independence" and
           renewables, but everyone is convinced Hydrogen==unlimited magic
           free energy.
        \_ CNG is cool man. I own NG stock. So this would be a dream come true.
        \_ why are you comparing a fuel to a combustion method?
           \_ An FC is a way of storing energy to drive a motor right?
              CNG is another way of storing energy to drive a motor.
              That is why I'm comparing them. Maybe I'm missing something
              though (definitely possible given that I barely passed 7A/B).
              \_ omgwtfbbq. FC outputs electricity. I don't see a strong
                 correlation between FC technology and motor technology as
                 FC could very well be used for other purposes, and the only
                 reason the two seem to be tied to each other is because of
                 R&D efforts from automotive industry. It's really sad that
                 private sectors instead of government aided R&D is leading
                 this. As for CNG, it's like engine but uses gas instead of
                 petro. You still go through the 4 strokes (intake, compress,
                 combust, exhaust). Again without government installing basic
                 infrastructures to handle either source, neither two will
                 be popular in masses to make the technology more affordable.
                 Fuck George W. Bush, SUV loving conservatives, and oil rich
                 friends. Also fuck John Fuckedup Kerry for not making it
                 clear that he'd support alternative fuel sources and fuck
                 DNC for being so incompetent. Go Ross Perot!!!
                 \_ I was specifically talking about FC as a power src for
                    cars. I've read about FCs for laptops and cellphones
                    where the technology seems like it will work well. For
                    cars it seems like switching to CNG might be better.
                    BTW, there are several places around the bay area where
                    you can get CNG. Also when I was in India I noticed
                    that lots of taxis ran on CNG there. So it seems like
                    there isn't as big a infrastructure issue for CNG as
                    for FCs.
                    \_ FC isn't a "power src". FC can run off hydrogen but
                       could also run off gas/CNG etc. It's a way to get
                       energy out of these fuels. You can also run a combustion
                       engine on hydrogen.
2005/2/15 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36172 Activity:moderate
2/14    A friend of mine is having a problem w/ her 2001 civic. She says
        that it occasionally refuses to accelerate past 30 and just makes
        a whizzing sound. She has taken it to the dealer twice and they
        don't think that there is anything wrong w/ it.
        I'm not really a car guy so the only think I can think of is that
        it is the transmission and I was going to check the transmission
        fluid for her tomorrow to make sure it doesn't smell burnt, &c.
        Anyone else have any idea about what else I can check (or know
        of a reliable dealer in SJ or Santa Clara?). tia.
        \_ What dealership has she been using (the one that's claimed nothing
           is wrong two times running now)?
        \_ It's not unusual to replace or rebuilt the transmission after
           120-150K. I had my Accord transmission rebult at 155K, similar
           symptoms. Your engine will be revving high but it will not engage
           at certain speed. I don't have a recommendation except to NOT
           GO TO AAMCO!!! They are a bunch of liars and will rip you off.
        \_ VTEC?
        \_ mechanic recommendations here:
           http://csua.com/?entry=27965
           http://csua.com/?entry=28282
        \_ I have a 91 Civic DX hatchback and it had two occasions of having
           problems accelerating past 40 and past 60 (no whirring noise,
           though, just the sound of the RPM dying even as I floored it).
           Once was a year ago.  I fixed it by starting my car and letting
           it idle for 10 seconds versus the instant drive mode I had sunken
           into.  Now it happened again after I got back from a 10-day trip
           out of the country.  I'm waiting for it to fix itself again by
           letting it warm up.  Methinks there's some air in the fuel line
           somewhere, and by letting the car warm up, the air is being bubbled
           out.  I'm going to add the $10 fuel injection cleaner into my
           tank later this week.  If none of this resolves in a couple weeks,
           I'm taking it to Kondo Motors in Santa Monica for them to diagnose.
           Japanese-owned and operated, and fair prices. -car dufus
        \_ whizzing sound?  from what part of car?  one kind of acceleration
           failure I have seen is bad ignition cables  allowing leakage and
           poor ignition.  can be very intermittent and annoying.
           \_ ucla cs/ee student, is that you?
        \_ I would recommend AAMCO!!!
        \_ whizzing sound?  from what part of car?  one kind of acceleration
           failure I have seen is bad ignition cables  allowing leakage and
           poor ignition.  can be very intermittent and annoying.
2005/2/6-7 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36080 Activity:high
2/6     Hey MOTD -- My car is going to die soon, and I was wondering if anyone
        has any suggestions for replacements.  My car is a 1998 ford taurus,
        24v Duratec engine.  It has good power, is very roomy, and was very
        reliable until it hit 100k miles.  I'm not married to another ford
        (or even to an american), but I can't really afford more than $30k
        (and 30 is really the upper end).  Ideally, I'd like something similar.
        TIA.
        \_ The Toyota Avalon is pretty nice.  280hp, roomy comparable to the
           ford, decent features, hovering right at the $30k mark.
        \_ Easy, get a Honda Accord or a Toyota Corolla. Relatively cheap,
           dependable, and if you get the better models it'll hold up its
           value. It should give you at least 10 years if not more.
           \_ If you don't want to buy a bland Accord or Camry perhaps
              you should consider a Subaru Legacy or Outback. Both would
              fit w/in your budget (the basic Legacy/Outback is btwn $21K
              and $25K, while the Legacy Turbo GT is btwn $26K and $30K).
              I currently own a 2003 Outback Wagon (basic, $22K in 2003)
              and I think that it is the best car I have ever owned.
              Some drawbacks of a Subaru are (1) the AWD decreases your
              gas mileage by 1 or 2 MPG over a non-AWD car such as a
              Camry, (2) the tires are more expensive to replace than
              on a Camry/Accord, (3) there aren't as many Subaru dealers
              as Honda/Toyota, and (4) there isn't a good way to listen
              to music from an iPod (no cassette player/line in).
              The Mazda 6 (as mentioned below) is another alternative,
              but I mainly chose the Outback over the 6 b/c the Outback
              had more interior room so I could carry more mtbs.
              --ranga
                \_ specs please. MPG, 0-60, HP.
                   \_ Readily available on the subaru website.   -OP
                   \_ the Accord beats Subaru on all 3 (MPG, speed, HP)
                      \_ This is true, but you should consider the
                         fact that the Subaru has AWD and can be
                         driven off road.
              \_ mtbs = mountain bikes? doesn't that muddy up the car?
                 what's wrong a rack? and why did you choose the outback
                 over the legacy? the outback has significantly worse brakes.
                 \_ I haven't had a big problem w/ mud. The car came w/
                    a big rubber mat that can be washed out. I considered
                    a roof rack but I decided that most of the time I
                    could just get by w/o it by sticking my bike inside.
                    a big rubber mat that can be washed out.
                    I don't normally need to carry more than one bike,
                    so I didn't want to invest in a rack. When I need
                    to take more than 1 bike, I try to borrow a rack
                    from a friend.
                    The main reason I chose the outback over the legacy
                    was that the outback had 0% financing (legacy was
                    2.9%) and there was a dealer incentive of $600 so
                    over 2 yrs the outback worked out cheaper.  The
                    outback also has slightly better ground clearance
                    and the dealer threw in the rdg for free which
                    helps if you want to drive it off road (which I
                    don't really do a lot of these days).
                    I didn't really know about the brakes when I
                    bought the car, so far I haven't noticed any
                    problems.
                    If I was buying today, I might still choose the
                    Outback b/c of the ground clearance but in all
                    other aspects the Legacy is preferable.
                    \_ Yeah I doubt the brake thing is that big a deal but
                       it was something my Dad considered when buying. The
                       Outback looks a lot flashier with the macho flared
                       fenders. I don't think most people really need
                       better ground clearance. I'm considering getting one
                       of the two myself. I like to be able to throw a bike
                       in the back of a car but I think I'd hesitate with
                       a nice carpeted trunk. I've used a truck a lot and
                       it always builds up dirt and mud back there. Maybe
                       if I got a tarp to cover everything back there... the
                       rubber mat thing I think only covers the very back.
        \_ Prius.
        \_ What about the Ford Five Hundred? It's supposed to be decent but
           boring, and the dealers will probably have to add incentives.
        \_ Does it have to be a brand new car? What's wrong with the
           current one? It will definitely cost less to fix the one you
           have and/or wait until it really dies. Camry, Altima, and Accord
           compete with the Taurus along with Mazda 6 and similar. All are
           under $30K. Personally, I'd think about buying a Lexus, even if
           it is a year old. If not that then how about an Avalon? I have
           firsthand experience with 2 Avalons and they are Lexus-lite.
           \_ Nah, it doesn't have to be brand new.  My current car might have
              a busted head gasket.  Cost to repair would exceed or equal the
              kelly bluebook value.
              \_ Yes, but still less than a new car. About $2K.
                 \_ Or, even better, seel the current jalopy to a junkyard
                    and buy another used card.  http://acauction.com!
                    \_ Yah, that's pretty much my plan;  I'm just polling
                    \_ Yah, that's pretty much my plan;  I'm just trolling
                       to see what motd people are interested in, or have
                       experience with.
        \_ Look buddy, $30K is a lot, do you really want to spend that
           much money on something that will depreciate 1/4-1/3 of its
           value the first year you buy it? Here is my recommendation.
           Buy a decent USED Japanese car from someone (Civic, Accord),
           and don't buy from dealers. You'll spend 1/2 of what you
           originally planned and can save the other 1/2 for something
           else nice, like kitchen/bathroom remodeling or save it for
           your kids' college tuition.
           Here is my second recommendation. If you MUST spend $30K,
           you can get a car that has enough room for fat asses like
           me (+200 pounds), has 255HP, ***37MPG***, and goes 0-60 in
           6 seconds. It is called the Honda Accord Hybrid.
           \_ "Nah, it doesn't have to be brand new."  and
              "Yah, that's pretty much my plan;".  Did you even read the
              thread, or are you just naturally this jerky?
           \_ Basically, the last sentence is the only relevant piece of
              information in your post for the OP's question.
           \_ there's something really really really wrong with putting 255HP
              in an oh-so-boring family sedan. It makes a lot of sense for a
              sportscar, but Honda Accord? 0-60 in 6 sec? It is just wrong.
         \_ What about Saturn? Any good? They have a neat little roadster
            coming out for $25K. Another option: Mini-Cooper.
            \_ Eh, neither is terribly roomy.  Check out the original post.
2005/2/3 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36045 Activity:high
2/3     Can someone explain to me why no car mfgrs. produce a sports car
        with a turbodiesel?  I rode in a friend's A6 TDI, not a small auto,
        which went like shit off a shovel.  Just curious.  -John
        \_ Probably because not a lot of people like diesel, it's not even
           economical anymore. Plus a sports coup with a turbo diesel would
           probably not meet emmission standards, after all, diesel is
           dirtier than regular unleaded.
           \_ I think we've had this discussion before, about diesel vs. gas.
              We're not talking about a diesel tractor engine, but something
              like a CRD or TDI with particle burner, which runs very clean.
              As far as I can tell, the main differences between a sports car
              and small high-end coupes are the chassis, suspension, gearbox
              and maybe performance tweaks to the engine, but not the
              fundamental engine (i.e. where in between BMW 316 and M3 CSL
              does it become a "sports car"?)  Anyway, after some research I
              found the C30 AMG.  -John
              \_ I _have_ heard that acceleration is one of the disadvantages
                 of diesel engines, but I am not an engine expert by any means.
                   -- ilyas
              \_ Sure you can probably get diesel to be as clean as regular
                 unleaded. That's not really the point. The point is, why
                 bother when diesel is as expensive as gas for the end-user.
                 Plus, it would cost more to maintain since you'd have to
                 get special parts for it, etc. Diesel tanks also corrode
                 over time with mold/bacteria/etc. There are reasons why
                 diesel never became popular in the U.S. for consumer level
                 vehicles, and why it's still not necessarily as popular as
                 it could have been in Europe.
           \_ Provincial fool! You're talking to Eurojohn. Euros love diesel.
              Diesels tend to generate tons of torque but not too much HP.
              But gas engines still get better performance for a sports car.
              They can build the engine lighter and run higher rpms without
              blowing up. And they sound cooler. Sports cars don't need to
              pull stumps. A turbo gas engine of the same displacement would
              probably go like even faster shit off a faster shovel.
        \_ Related, are there any manufacturers besides VW selling TDIs in
           California?  I was very interested in one but I've nixed those plans
           on account of VW's quality problems.  TIA.
        \_ Heil Eurotrash John!
        \_ For one thing, diesel engines usually require more space to
           generate the same HP as regular engines. Secondly, new
           technologies such as the Accord Hybrid prove that motors
           in fact generate a lot of torque which really helps you
           get to red-line quickly even if your engine is starting
           from near-idle speed. The new Accord Hybrid engine is small,
           goes 0-60 in 6 seconds, is less than $30,000, and has 37MPG.
           I doubt conventional diesel technology has all the
           combinations of form size, torque, mileage, and price range
           offered by hybrid technologies.
2005/1/26 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:35899 Activity:high
1/26    Dear hybrid car experts, can you please tell me what is wrong
        with the design of Honda Accord hybrid? I expected it to have
        great mileage. I mean, that's what people expect right?
        At 255HP and 37MPG, it is roughly 100 more HP and 3MPG more
        than the other Accords. However, I suspect that most Accord
        owners buy Accords not because of HP/speed, but because
        it's economical and has great mileage. At $12,000 over
        the standard Accord price, it's hardly economical (heck I can
        buy other nice cars for $35,000), and at only 3MPG more than
        the old Accords, I have to say, Honda sucks. Why couldn't
        they have come up with something that has EQUAL HP (160HP)
        but much better mileage? Idiots.        -Disapponted Honda Fan
        \_ 255hp?  wow, that will beat the pants off my buddies lancer!
           -r1c3 b0y
        \_ hybrids are good for city driving and would show great
           benefits for high power "get up and go" drivers as compared
           to their regular high output engine.  this makes a lot of
           sense to use it for cushy cars and SUVs that are driven
           poorly from a fuel-efficiency perspective.  hybrids do not
           help w/ long distance cruising where regular engines yield
           reasonable highway MPG ratings.
           \_ To further illustrate this point, the Toyota Prius has better
              city gas mileage than highway.
        \_ prius has 110 hp
        \_ Hybrid engines are new. The current breed only gives about 10%
           milage boost, the new ones coming out in a year or two will give
           around a 25% boost compared to gas only engines.
        \_ I'm thinking of buying the Accord Hybrid exactly because it has
           slightly better gas mileage AND better HP.  Remember, this is the
           top of the line Accord, and is marketed as such.  If you want fuel
           efficiency, get the hybrid Civic.
                \_ Uh, you realize that for $35000, you can get a much
                   nicer car with better name recognition than say, HONDA.
                   I mean, Hondas are reliable and all, but styling is oh
                   so boring (not exactly a chick getting car).
                   \_ Where did you come up with $35k?  MSRP is only $30k.
                      And thats only $3k more than the non-hybrid V6.
                      What other car are you comparing this to?
                        \_ the dealer has a $2K mark up, plus shipping, tax
                           and goodies
                           \_ You have those other fees regardless of what
                              car you look at.  Even +$2k, thats only $5k more.
                   \_ YOU NEED INTEGRA HAAA
                   \_ My penis is large enough, so that I don't need to
                      overcompensate by buying an oversized SUV or sports
                      car "for the chicks".
                   \_ People buy Honda for reliability, and relatively better
                      styling and performance than Toyota.  I'm still waiting
                      to hear what car you'd prefer at $32k.
                      \_ Nissan 350z w/ Performance package -- !pp
2005/1/23-24 [Consumer/Audio, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:35865 Activity:nil
1/23    My car is about 10 years old and has a cassette tape desk.  I have
        an adaptor that I can plug an iPod or portable CD player into
        the tape desk to play music.  Sometimes it works fine, but all too
        often, it spontaneously ejects the "tape" and won't play it even
        after re-inserting.  I've had the same problem with more than 1
        tape adaptor, so I think it's something about my car's casette
        player.  What can I do to fix this?  Would a tape head cleaner do
        the trick, or is that only for fixing poor sound quality?
        \_ get a hybrid car
          \_ I may consider that when I get a new car, but since my car
             works just fine now, I don't think I'll be spending $10000+
             for a new one.  But thanks for the suggestion.  -op
        \_ get a new player.  $100-$200.
2005/1/21-22 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:35854 Activity:high
1/21    Which would you choose for a low-price car (new or used):
        Honda Civic, Nissan Altima, or Toyota Corolla? My priorities
        are low price, reliability, and low maintenance costs.
        \_ I have a 1990 Civic Si.  I bought a Mazda Protege5 about a year
           ago.  Civic is definitely better architected, but Mazda is
           better built.  It's much easier to get "deals" from Mazda
           dealer than from Honda dealer, and rebates are much better, too,
           for non-Honda.  It's a close call.  Try different cars and NEVER
           be hasty.
        \_ Honda Civic. For about the same price maybe even Acura RSX
           (souped up Civic).
           \_ RSX is considerably more.  But I'd second the Civic notion,
              although I'd probably check out the Mazda 3:  It's got a
              fair bit more Zoom Zoom.
              \_ RSX is $20-23K. Civic is $13-21K. Can be the same price
                 (or close) unless you want a stripped down Civic. Mazda 3
                 seems good. My brother's gf had one for a few months
                 before getting a truck instead. OP didn't ask about it.
        \_ I have a Civic Hybrid and a 50cc scooter. I love the environment.
        \_ I've owned to Corollas ('96, '02) and they are great. I've
           never had any problems with either one. The '02 is actually
           quite large and still gets very good gas mileage. The routine
           maintenance recommended by Toyota is quite cheap. My State
           Farm insurance dude told me that the rates for the Corolla
           are lower than for a Civic by $20-$50/six months.
           If your are looking for something a bit sportier than a
           Corolla and you don't want to go the C1V1C TYP3 R1C3R
           route, you could take a look at the Mazda 3 or a Impreza
           2.5RS (non-WRX version, still get a very nice AWD system
           for just a bit more money).

i/21    Another related article, especially for the "Useful Idiot" lefty
        on the MOTD who regurgitates everything that Mike Moore says:
        http://paulgraham.com/say.html
        \_ "Let's start with a test: Do you have any opinions that you
           would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your
           peers?  If the answer is no, you might want to stop and
           think about that. If everything you believe is something
           you're supposed to believe, could that possibly be a
           coincidence? Odds are it isn't. Odds are you just think whatever
           you're told."
           He definitely has the Limbaugh trick of starting with a ridiculous
           assertion down.  -tom
           \_ So, why would this be a ridiculous assertion? Do you actually
              believe whatever you are taught to believe? If so, then you
              really do have a small mind, which many on the MOTD have already
              suspected of you. Of course, your failure to understand and
              participate in real discourse is legend. Anyway, the article is
              a-political. It merely points out the fact that people like you
              are merely monkeys trained to think the way you do and have
              never had a real independent assertion in your life.
              \_ bad troll, no cookie.  -tom
           \_ I don't know if Limbaugh has the monopoly on that.  But it's the
              false dichotomy that amuses me.  Another reason you might not
              have a problem stating what you believe is that you're
              self-confident (that is, you know people will disagree, but you
              don't care).
              \_ or you're so immersed in a culture of people who hold unusual
                 opinions, that everyone dissagrees all the time and thinks
                 this is normal.  Everyone I work with has several outlandish
                 opinions that everyone else thinks are crazy, and no one
                 cares.  Of course, in the article, he does  mention scientists,
                 but for some reason assumes that none of his readers are
                 scientists.
              \_ So in other words you are a coward.
           \_ What is an example of such an opinion? That he likes little boys?
2005/1/20 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Computer/SW/Security] UID:35824 Activity:high
1/20    If I go through the bridge toll plaza on a "FastTrak/cash" lane, is the
        transponder supposed to beep?  I did it twice on the San Mateo bridge
        and it didn't beep.  I got worried and now I only use the FastTrak-only
        lanes.
        \_ there is a sign which says Valid
        \_ This is STFW day today, isn't it:
           http://511.org/fastrak/faq.asp
        \_ do you have the regular transponder or the Continuum Transponster?
2005/1/19-20 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:35800 Activity:moderate
1.19    Anybody ever used one of those auto auctions in the bay area?
        Good experience?  What sort of admission fee did you pay to get in?
        Thanks.
        \_ I've been to the alameda county auction in Dublin.  I didn't
           buy anything, I just went to see what it was like.  Admission
           was free.  You could buy a print out of the schedule (something
           like 300 cars), or print one out yourself for free online.
           There were a lot of people taking detailed notes.  It looked to
           me like a very good deal.  Some nice cars went VERY cheap.
           http://www.acauction.com                   --jrleek
           Addendum: I think if you actually wanted to bid on a car you
           had to register, and there was a fee for that. ($15?)  That
           page also describes the extra fees you have to pay when you
           buy.
           \_ How can you tell what kind of condition the cars are in
              without taking it to a shop?  You can tell the condition of
              the chasis but how would you know about the transmission or
              if there is a hole in the catalytic converter etc.  Are the
              prices things went for available anywhere?
              \_ You can go ahead of time (thursday?) and check the cars
                 out yourself.  I didn't, so I don't know how through an
                 inspection you're allowed.  I don't think the prices are
                 posted anywhere, people were there writing them down for
                 their own reference.  I can tell you 2002 BMWs went for
                 about $15,000, and a Kia with 60,000 miles left on the
                 warranty (transferable) went for < 3000. -jrleek
              \_ I never went to one myself, but a coworker did. His
                 friend bought a car there which turned out to be a great
                 buy BUT it was out of gasoline and the battery was dead.
                 Getting it home was a lot of fun, since the gas cap had
                 a key which was missing, too. People who go often know to
                 bring a charger, gas, and some tools. They let you start
                 the cars, but you cannot drive them. Caveat emptor.
2004/12/3-6 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:35166 Activity:high
12/3    My car has problem starting. It would start but after 1 second
        it would drop down below 1RPM and die. However, after revving
        and warming up the engine, the idle speed is fine (slightly
        below 1RPM) and it would start and run smoothly. So this
        rules out the possibility of having to adjust the idle speed.
        What's going on and what can be done to it? ok thx
        \_ What year, make, and model is it?
        \_ Do you have a ~ 1996 Camry?  This is a common problem with the Idle
           Air Control Valve (or something else with a similar name).
 http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.toyota.camry/messages/36004.html
           http://tinyurl.com/485ys
           My gf had it fixed twice (second time for free because they felt
           guilty I guess), and it still happens occasionally.  The workaround
           is to have the AC on when starting to get the RPMs up.
           \_ This'll happen with any mid-90's toyota.  Good guess.
        \_ I have an idea. GO TO A DAMN MECHANIC!
                \_ is this the first time you're reading the motd?
                   \_ Must be the same person who didn't like the yermom joke.
                        \_ yer dumb.
                        \_ Not at all.
           \_ Or try one of those fuel injector degunker solutions next time
              you fill your tank.
        \_ It's likely the battery. The same thing happened to my car
           several weeks back. Go to a local mechanic, and they'll
           test it quickly for you; then you buy a battery.
           \_ Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a replacement battery
              at costco instead of go to the mechanic?
                \_ Not if you battery isn't dead. I doubt the mechanic
                   would charge you for the battery test; it only takes
                   <5 minutes. Also, go check your battery -- it should
                   have a sticker on it saying when it was installed.
            \_ I doubt it's the battery. Once the engine is on, the amount
               of electricity it takes to keep the engine going would be
               pretty low. Given that the op could restart the engine
               and warm the engine up. It could be a loose vacuum hose,
               a bad engine thermometer, or quite a number of things.
               BTW when my battery was close to death and couldn't turn
               the engine over, I got a push start and drove across town
               to a mechanic. Actually, turned out to be the alternator
               regulator.
                \_ I'd agree, but since I encountered the same situation
                   just a few weeks ago, I just thought I'd bring it up.
                   \_ So the engine would actually engage before dying?
        \_ Thanks guys for the input. After browsing the web and
           calling a few dealers who recommended cleaning the carb
           for $100-$150, I decided to DIY. I looked at the site
           http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/30_V6/throttle_body
           and bought a carb/throttle cleaner ($3.75). I spent about
           30 min to/from Pep Boys and another 30 min cleaning the
           carb, and voila! Everything's fine again! Thanks for all the
           advice, I've learned *a lot* by DIY and saved time (dealers
           said I'd have to leave the car for 1/2 day) and saved
           over $100.
           \_ You're an idiot. You saved $100 and you still aren't sure
              what was wrong. Penny wise and pound foolish.
              \_ The carbs were dirty, which probably restricted gasflow.
                 \_ Maybe. Even you don't know. "Probably". Stupid when
                    your car stalls on you in a week.
                    \_ Don't be annoying.  It's not like he's putting his
                       health on the line--learning how your car works and
                       how to fix common problems is a good thing.  Are you
                       one of the people who religiously avoids "warranty void
                       if removed" stickers too?
                       \_ Also, I would argue that learning stuff has monetary
                          value, so that a more expensive solution where
                          you learn something would still be break-even.
                       \_ No, I learned by watching others that you can
                          screw up more than you fix if you don't know
                          what you are doing. If this is a hobby car then
                          great, but if the guy needs the car working then
                          he's a tool. Our current society makes us all
                          think we are capable of DIYing everything. It's
                          what keeps places like Home Depot going. It's
                          better to learn when to call a pro, like when
                          your car might stall on the freeway and kill you.
                          \_  I hate to tell you this, but for the most
                              part, professionals use this same method to
                              fix things.  There's a set of possible
                              problems, try fixing things until one works.
                              Usually, that was the problem.  BTW, I
                              really wonder what kind of car you have that
                              it kills you if you stall on the freeway.
                              Does it explode in anger or something?
                              \_ If you can't see how you might get killed
                                 when your car stalls at 80mph then you
                                 are an idiot - but I already knew that.
                                 \_ What's the problem?  Put in neutral
                                    and pull over.  Stall != instant
                                    screeching halt.  Unless you're a
                                    moron... oh.  I think I see your
                                    problem.
                                    \_ Pull over where? Most freeways don't
                                       have shoulders these days.
                                       \_ "Most freeways don't
                                          have shoulders?" What kinda
                                          bizarro world do you live in?
                                          580, 80, 680, 5, all have
                                          perfectly serviceable shoulders
                                          for > 95% of the freeway.
                                          \_ On the left side.
                                             \_ Pulling over to the left
                                                is illegal in most cases.
                                       \_ You have too much fear and
                                          not enough trust for yourself.
                                          I think it's best if you let
                                          the mechanics do everything.
                                          \_ ignorance is safety!
                          \_ There are a lot of advantages of DIY
                             besides saving money. How do you know you
                             can really trust that shop/mechanics?
                             Granted there are certain things you
                             cannot do yourself because it's too
                             complicated or requires specialized
                             equipment. In general, I find
                             contractors, any kind of contractors,
                             will never be careful about your stuff as
                             your would yourself, unless in rare
                             situations you encounter one that's very
                             responsible. It's interesting human
                             psychology that "not knowing" makes you
                             feel more comfortable. Just like in some
                             restaurants, if you see how they cook,
                             you'll never eat their stuff. But not
                             seeing how they cook, and given that they
                             charge a lot of money, makes you assume
                             that they are professionals. Next time
                             you get your tires replaced at ANY SHOP,
                             check the cold tire pressure afterwards
                             with a few gauges. There will be at least
                             one that's WAY OUT OF SPEC. I've seen
                             this on quite a few cars, with (oh, I
                             just had the tire checked last week,
                             yeah!) In general one should achieve a
                             good balance about what can be done with
                             DIY and what to leave to the
                             professional. Sometimes learning a bit
                             about a field can help a lot, even if
                             only for the sole purpose of verifying
                             what the mechanics is saying. I once had
                             a mechanics claiming he didn't tie the
                             engine oil cap tightly because
                             'a wire is in the way', give me a fucking
                             break, it's leaking oil because he forgot
                             to tighten it. Blindly trusting the
                             mechanics is worst than DIY. Most people
                             who have the skill to post on the motd
                             can probably build a computer by
                             themselves and therefore can fix simple car
                             problems like replacing a battery or
                             check tire pressures. -!ap
                             \_ I think you missed the point here. It's
                                obviously good to try to learn and
                                definitely true that you may be able to do
                                a better job yourself. The catch is the
                                word 'may'. Like I said, I have seen a lot
                                of people very knowledgable about cars
                                mess them up in the learning process. Yes,
                                now they know what not to do but their car
                                is messed up! If you want to make a hobby
                                of it then great, but you can find
                                examples of lawyers, doctors, accountants,
                                and such all making mistakes or doing a
                                bad job. That doesn't mean you should do
                                it yourself. Learn about how an engine
                                works and then TAKE THE CAR TO A MECHANIC.
                                \_ If you spend any time to read any of
                                   the auto newsgroups, most people there
                                   don't seem to trust a minimum wage
                                   mechanic. But then again most people
                                   there are pretty knowledgable.
                                \_ Wow.  I didn't realize Carb Cleaner is
                                   so dangerous!
           \_ It's great that you found the problem, or at least it's
              better. Sometime you might want to try Car Talk on NPR.
              That would be a hoot.
2004/10/12 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:34061 Activity:moderate
10/12   http://tinyurl.com/5tt2y
        Bush/Kerry car with illustrations (humor link)
2004/10/10 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:34016 Activity:nil
10/8    Dear physics/EE experts. If I put electricity in motors, they
        turn. But if I turn motors, will they generate electricity?
        How efficient could they do that? The other question is,
        the Toyota Prius has a regenerative brake. How much more
        components did they add to make that happen (how many more
        motors, circuitry, coils, etc), and how efficient is the
        regenerative brake? In another word, suppose you put in
        100X 'energy' into the car to make it go ye fast, then you
        utilize the regenerative brake, what percentage of 100X do
        you get back?
        \_ http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/08/pf/autos/mileage/index.htm?cnn=yes
2004/10/5-6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:33930 Activity:very high
10/5    Republican Car vs Democrat Car:
        Hummer: Republican
        Prius:  Democrat
        M1 Abrams Tank: Libertarian
        Bulldozer: Likud
        Lowered VW bus with Porsche Engine and big stereo: non-voter
                   \_ Bug?
        Public transportation: America hating libuhral
        Bike: Green
        Others?
        \_ This is stupid. --aaron
           \_ BWM 525i
              \_With an "I'd rather be smashing imperialism" bumpersticker.
              \_ Huh?
                 \_ Don't you drive a BMW 525i aaron?
                 \_ Don't you drive a BMW 525i?
          \_ no sense of humour
             \_ this is your idea of wit? i've got some archives of 1993
                internet humor that could keep you in stitches. --aaron
                \_ please forgive aaron. He's one of those people who like
                   to say things like "when I was your age the computer
                   lab was in W.E.B. (workstations in Evan's basement)
                   and a bit was ye big and I programmed in registers
                   but then I got into politics and stopped being funny."
                   \_ Back in my day, we didn't have no electricity, we
                      used gas, and dagnabit, we liked it! Back then we used
                      to clack numbers together. We didn't have none of these
                      digital computers.
                      \_ You had numbers?  We could only dream that someone
                         would invent the zero in my day....
        Nazi: Mercedes
           \_ VW.
           \_ Porsche.
           \_ Dodge (but really, VW bug. Ein Volk! Ein Wagen!)
2004/9/27-28 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:33785 Activity:moderate
9/26    Any BMW drivers?  Where do you go for oil change?  $$?
        \_ Mine's still under the 4Yr/50KMi warranty but my coworkers
           recommend the Japanese Beetle.
        \_ Dealer. <=$200 for "Inspection I" which includes oil change.
           If it is under warranty don't go anywhere but the dealer.
           \_ The warranty had expired and dealer told me it's $400.
              \_ Wait a minute.  If you're paying more than $40 for an oil
                 change you're getting ripped-off.
        \_ Change your own oil. It's not all that hard.
              \_ It's not $400 at any dealer. To see what is included in
                 Inspection I & II (including cost) see here:
                 http://www.bimmerzone.com/inspection.htm
                \_ may be it was inspection 2.  i heard different things
                   from different people.  how often do you do the oil
                   change?  as indicated by the indicator or every 5000mi?
                   \_ I do it according to the indicator, but whatever
                      works for you. Some people are nuts about it, just
                      like some people spend $150/month detailing their
                      cars. I find that every 15,000 miles is 1x per year
                      and that's what BMW recommends. It's what I do.
2004/9/15-16 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:33551 Activity:high
9/15    How do sites like http://sigalert.com work- do they have cameras along the
        freeway, or are there sensors in the road?  Also, how do they have access
        to that data- is it public or does the DoT provide it on some sort
        of contract?
        \_ I think CalTrans provides the data; they must have some sort of sensors
           and cameras scattered throughout the freeways. However it works, itsure
           is useful.
        \_ I think CalTrans provides the data; they must have some sort of
           sensors and cameras scattered throughout the freeways. However it
           works, it sure is useful.
        \_ see latest issue of EE times.
           \_ looked for it online, but didn't find anything - what was the
              title of the article?
              \_ i looked at the hard copy version.  anyways, basically
                 it's inductors at different locations.  each car running
                 over the inductors will induce a current.  by monitoring
                 the current (each car is unique), one can approximate
                 how fast a car travels from point a to b.
        \_ Fastrak transponders.  Read the paragraph "How is my FasTrak
           transponder used for traffic information purposes?" at
           http://www.511.org/fastrak/faq.asp
2004/9/9 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:33441 Activity:very high
9/9     Is it a particularly bad time to buy a new car right now? I need one
        soon, and my budget is around 35K. What makes/models would I get a
        decent deal on right now? 2004/2005 models are both ok with me.
        Thanks for any advice.
        \_ if you are in the luxury car market, I would recommend checking
           the used auctions.  A lot of luxury car owners keep their car
           for a year until the next shiny thing comes along, and sell it.
           There is one in Fremont.             -brain
        \_ It's always a bad time to buy a new car, asshole.  for an
           extra 35K you could buy a house that much closer to where
           you work, and probably have money left over to actually
           *invest* in something instead of pissing your hard-earned
           money away on a killing machine that instantly goes down in
           value after purchase.
           \_ Thanks, asshole. Wave me over the next time you're on your
              bike so I can run you down.
              \_ please call me from the hospital after your first heart
                 attack so i can laugh at you. fucker.
                 \_ You do realize that in all likelihood, you're a sociopath,
                    yes?  It's okay, man, there's nothing wrong with being an
                    impotent socipathic nerd.  Have a nice, day.  Poor guy.
                    \_ right, because I operate a machine responsible for
                       the deaths of 50,000 Americans, yes?  Oh, wait!
                       That's you!  fuck off and die.
                       \_ And delusional too!  Nice combo ya got there, kid.
                          Maybe you should up your meds.
           \_ $35K won't even make a dent in a house let alone move you
              to another neighborhood. Not in urban CA.
        \_ BMW 325/330. There should be rebates on http://edmunds.com
        \_ Care to tell us something about what kind of car you're looking for?
           \_ Sorry about that. 35K implies like entry-level luxuryish.
              I've got a sedan in mind. Something fairly nice, but practical.
              No need to be real sporty or anything, not trying to pick up
              chicks.
              \_ Infiniti G35 coupe, Cadillac CTS, Chrysler 300C is
                 particularly a good deal. You may also want to wait for the
                 Accord Hybrid
        \_ I'm of the opinion that new cars are always a waste.  You can
           get pretty good deals on repo'd cars at the Alameda County
           Auction.  You could get a 2002 BMW for $16,000 or so easily.
           check out http://www.acauction.com
        \_ I just bought a BMW X5 at $600 over invoice.  There are supposed
           to be serious deals on the X3 if you are willing to swing that way.
        \_ Read The_Millionaire_Next_Door and put your $35k into stocks
           instead. Unless you are a sales guy, or are trying to pick
           up chicks, you don't need a $35k car.
           \_ Okay, I sort of lied. I'm not too much into cars myself, but
              my dad is getting old and wants to have a nice car for once.
              So this is for him, okay? Thanks. -op
              \_ Wow, you are a nice person. What are you doing on the motd?
              \_ $35k is as much as what I gave my mother over three years.
           \_ You know, he just asked for some product advice, not financial
              planning or ethics advice.  It's not like he asked which casino
              has the best slots to spend $35K at.
        \_ An entry level Audi A6 fits nicely within your budget and it is
           a lot bigger than BMW 3 series.
           \_ Is bigger supposed to be a selling point?
              \_ It's a well-known fact that old people prefer land yachts.
        \_ if you loved your dad you'd buy him a motorcycle that your anal
           nagging annoying mother didn't let him have for the past 30 years.
           \_ The other advantage here is that you get your inheritence
              faster!
2004/6/28-29 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:31038 Activity:high
6/28    Need a friendly auto mechanic or someone knowledgeable about cars
        in Silicon Valley. I have a crashed car and they unhooked the battery
        in the impound lot. I need to get the mileage for insurance and a
        couple of CDs out of the car. Can anyone recommend a person at
        reasonable cost(insurance co. will reimburst me for cost)?
        \_ I went to Fred's Wrench in Alameda a couple years ago after Midas
           told me I needed a new transmission.  Fred drove around with me
           while I showed him all the weird noises, and told me the
           transmission was fine for the age of the car, and that the motor
           mounts needed replacement (which he did for 1/3 the price Midas
           quoted).
        \_ Can't you just go there and connect a battery to it?  If you can't
           do it, I'll do it for $100...
        \_ get one of those cigarette-lighter attachment car starter things,
           hook that up and it should give the car enough power to give you
           an ODO reading and let you retrieve CD's.
2004/5/12 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:30191 Activity:high
5/12    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1
        Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon
        in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of
        mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg. "I feel like a
        complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that
        says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles
        his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip.
        (Also, if you check the Prius msg boards linked from the article,
        it appears those drivers get 45+ mpg.  2004 Prius >> Civic Hybrid.
        But I still think it's easy to hit some poor pedestrian who didn't
        hear you coming.)
        \_ There's very little difference in road noise at speed between a
           hybrid and a standard car.
           \_ "at speed" is definitely not the situation I'm imagining.
              I am now assuming I don't need to give examples of the situations
              I'm actually afraid of.
        \_ Toyota is ahead on the hybrid tech, they've done it longer.
        \_ That's really sad,  I get 33-37 in my regular Honda Civic.
        \_ I used to get 38-42 combined in my crappy '87 Ford Escort.  Maybe
           it's the way he drives.  Does electric motor have the same problem
           as gas engine where rapid acceleration consumes more energy than
           gentle acceleration in order to reach the same final speed?
           \_ It's probably something like that.  The VW diesels say they
              can get over 40 mpg, but you have to shift at like 2000 rpm
              to get that kind of mileage.  Many people get only around 30
              some when driving like they would with a normal car.
        \_ Is it correct that they'll use the gas engine to augment the
           electric engine during hard acceleration?
           \_ The gas engine is the primary means of power.  The batteries are
              charged *solely* by the brakes storing energy in them.  *If* the
              batteries have power, the electric will try to take over for the
              gas engine, but in a high-horsepower situation both will operate
              together.
              \_ Just from the brakes?  So that means that living in a hilly
                 place makes a huge difference, right?
              \_ Is that true for all hybrids?  I thought it was supposed
                 to be that that gas engine generated electricity, which
                 moved the car.  If it's just based on brakes, unless you
                 were very careful you'd just be driving a regular car
                 with too many batteries.
                 \_ OK, hybrid cars shouldn't be thought of as some
                    revolutionary new propulsion technology.  All they are is
                    small gasoline-powered cars with an added system that
                    recaptures energy normally wasted when you hit the brakes.
                    If you live in a hilly area or have to use the brakes a
                    lot, a hybrid will save over a conventional car.  If you
                    drive a lot at constant speed or accelerate hard, you
                    won't save much.
                    Simply having the gasoline engine generate electricity for
                    the electric motor will waste power, because every time you
                    convert forms of energy, you lose.  A normal car converts
                    chemical, to pressure to motion.  If you then convert
                    motion to electricity and then back into motion, you've
                    wasted energy and had to cary around an electric motor too.
                    -dgies ( majored in Physics)
                    \_ dewd, if you checked the Prius web site, you would see
                       that it said the gas engine would recharge the battery
                       if the batteries were low.  Also, further refinements
                       include shutting off the gas engine entirely while
                       the car is stationary.  Note that this is linked to
                       the first statement.
                       \_ Directly charging the batteries with the gas engine
                          *is* wasteful of energy.  However, since the hybrids
                          have small engines, it makes sense to keep some
                          juice in the batteries for when you need some extra
                          horsepower. -dgies
                          \_ okay, as long as we know the gas engine does
                             charge the battery at appropriate times -- it's
                             not all braking action as asked by a previous
                             poster -- and one acknowledges the benefit of
                             having the gas engine turn off completely while
                             the vehicle is stationary.  Finally, the
                             battery is also charged when going downhill by
                             applying automatic braking, and the gas engine
                             may also turn off completely.
                          \_ You are just wrong dgies. Do you understand
                             how a diesel electric train engine works? The
                             hybrids work the same way.
                             \_ Those dang SCIENTISTS and ENGINEERS!
                             \_ Actually, this is not quite true.  There
                                is no physical connection (via transm.)
                                between the diesel engine and to the
                                locomotives wheel.  Prius has CVT as
                                mentioned below.  Prius uses the electric
                                motor to either supplement energy (from
                                the batteries) or used as a generator
                                to capture excess engery (either from
                                the engine or from the wheels "braking").
                                Diesel-Electric uses the engine soley
                                as a power-plant for the electric motor
                                (which connects to the wheels).  The
                                reason behind this is that the narrow
                                powerband of the diesel engine would
                                require a transmission with about 25
                                gears.  BTW, you can use the elec. motor
                                also to brake a locomotive.  Think of
                                it as a giant hair blow dryer.  Instead
                                of storing the energy in a battery, it
                                is used to generate heat.
                                \_ Why doesn't the locomotive also store the
                                   electric energy from braking (or at least
                                   some of it) instead of wasting it?
                                   \_ I guess because freight locomotives
                                      tend to do long haul and not do
                                      quick stop-n-go runs.  It probably
                                      doesn't make economical sense (and
                                      much like hybrid doesn't "shine" in
                                      high speed highways).
                     \_ With CV transmission, you can get "infinite" gear
                        ratio (versus the traditional 1st gear, 2nd, etc).
                        This way, the computer can operate the gas engine
                        at the most efficient RPM without directly
                        affected by the speed of the car.  Any "excess"
                        energy generated by the engine can be used
                        to recharge the battery.
                        \_ Yeah but then you don't get something to mash
                           about while bombing around the hills.  -John
                        \_ CVT isn't specific to hybrids. MINI's and Audi
                           A4's have them.
                           \_ are they something that we should expect to see
                              on all cars in the near future, or are they too
                              expensive? (or is there some other reason that
                              this would be undesirable?)
                              \_ I imagine they're probably more expensive and
                                 less proven reliability.
                           \_ Civic HX (a gas-only car) has CVT also.
                \_ it's my understanding that the Honda hybrids are primarily
                   gas and use the electric motor to supplement it whereas the
                   Toyota Prius is the other way around.
2004/4/25-26 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:13372 Activity:nil
4/24    Ok, in market for new car.  Prius or Insight?
        \_ Two words: "peak oil"
        \_ There were some Edmunds advisors I saw a while back on TV who
           said that that the demand for hybrids is still too high and
           that if you're worried about fuel economy, you should invest
           in a high mileage non-hybrid vehicle instead. To my surprise,
           he suggested a BMW 3-series. But I agree. The money you save
                          \_ M3 CSL!!!111  Only decent BMW... -John
           from a hybrid over some other high-mileage vehicle as a result
           of a lower gas bill probably won't offset the premium you will
           pay on a hybrid. I'd wait for hybrid supply/demand to go up.
           \_ Hybrid is not worth it in terms of gas savings, but as a BMW
              owner I think the mileage is atrocious. I got better mileage
              on the 8 cylinder Jaguar I rented. BMW is not high mileage.
              \_ I just got back from Germany and after some city driving
                 and Autobahn driving (I was going 90-135MPH most of the
                 time) I was averaging 25MPG and this was with the 5-speed.
                 The 6-speed transmission offers a taller overdrive gear
                 which probably would have pushed the fuel economy up
                 (particularly at the speeds I was traveling at).
                 \_ Is 25 mpg considered high? I probably get something
                    like 22 mpg, but there's a lot of stop-and-go. It sure
                    ain't my Honda or my Nissan in terms of mileage.
                    \_ When you're going 90MPH+, yes 25MPG is high. Wind
                       resistance goes up drastically when you travel at
                       those speeds.
                    \_ 25mpg is average at best for a normal-sized car.  It's
                       good mileage for a SUV, though.
        \_ Mostly irrelevant I'm sure, but my friend's 2002 Prius was hit in
           a parking lot.  It's a $3000 repair, and she's out of a car for 3
           weeks waiting for the parts to ship from Japan.
        \_ Used.
        \_ Honda Civic Hybrid is a better choice.
        \_ RIDE BIKE!
           \_ Oh just go and die will you.
        \_ 2004 Prius is a better choice.
           \_ Toyota gives "false" estimates for its MPG.  Nowhere close to
              what is advertised.
              \_ Why do you believe this?
                 \_ I know someone with a Prius, he only gets 40-45 MPG, not
                    60.  -tom
                    \_ does he have any twink points?
                    \_ 2003 or 2004 Prius?  The 2004 improved on fuel economy,
                       and the web site says "55 mpg".
                       \_ http://www.kanai.net/weblog/archives/001506.html
                          Old one advertised 48 overall.
        \_ Forget hybrids.  Get Civic HX (35/40 mpg), no need to replace
           batteries after ~10 years.  Seriously, the fuel savings you get
           on hybrids don't really safe the environment more than driving
           something like the HX.  Good maintenance, responsible long-term
           ownership is far more important.
        \_ Consider buying a VW Jetta with a diesel engine (which, beside the
           related VW Golf TDI, is the only diesel car on the US marker I think)
        \_ Does anyone really get the rated MPG?  I doubt it since no one drives
           exactly the same way the EPA drives.
2004/3/12 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:12637 Activity:very high
3/12    I know this is a liberal pipe-dream, but imagine that, instead of
        spending $87B on Iraq every year, hundreds of billions on tax cuts,
        and the prescription drug [company] benefit, we spent $300B a year
        on a simple program: Hand in any car that gets less than 30 MPG and
        you can go out and buy a 50+ MPG hybrid car for FREE.  We could replace
        15 million cars a year on this program, and oil imports would soon
        drop like a rock ... This seems a lot simpler than invading country
        after country, plus domestic car manufacturers would quickly start
        cranking out competing models so it would help the car industry too.
        People want to drive big SUVs, not hybrids but I'll bet plenty of
        people would switch if you get a new car for FREE.
        \_ Ok, great, and where does the power come from for these cars?
           Hybrid cars dont make power from thin air.  It's a hybrid of a gas
           engine and a battery.  The power for the battery comes from either
           energy drained off the gas engine and thus reduces MPG and/or from
           an electric socket.  The power for that socket comes from...? Yep,
           you guessed it, burning oil, coal, or nuclear.  I won't even go
           into the abuse your program will cause when we suddenly see the
           price of broken ancient $150 gas guzzlers go up just so people can
           turn them in, nor will I mention that oil is not the source of
           Islamic terrorism.  It isn't a liberal pipe-dream.  It is just a
           pipe-dream.
           \_ I don't think the point of an electric or electric-hybrid car
              is to get energy for free. It's to improve efficiency. Electric
              cars (that plug into a socket) use energy generated from a
              gas turbine power plant (or nuclear, solar, hydroelectric,etc.).
              Gas turbine engines are far more fuel efficient than piston
              engines. Hybrid cars work under the principle of using a low
              power engine (which tend to be more efficient than a high
              powered one) and using that to recharge a battery.
              \_ plus the battery allows regenerative braking, and shutting off
                 the engine quickly when idle.
           \_ Pretty much no hybrids on the market are built to recharge from
              an outside electricity source -- you are thinking or pure EVs,
              which are pretty much on hold. OP is referring to the reduction
              in required petro due to increased fuel efficiency alone and he
              is correct that the change would be dramatic. Hybrids can get
              double the mileage of standard vehicles.
              \_ Most of the milegage gain is from making the cars lighter.
                 \_ Must research before talking out of ass. Apples vs.
                    apples, hybrids are heavier.
                    http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid
                    http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civic+Sedan
              \_ Let's assume we replace around 20% of all cars (because not
                 everyone can or wants to trade-in).  We'd cut automotive
                 petroleum use around 10%, and total petroleum use ~5%.  We'd
                 probably replace ~30 million cars at a cost of ~$60 billion.
                 $60 billion seems a bit high for a 5% drop in oil use.
                 \_ To my mind that depends how much of a petro decrease would
                    be sufficient to no longer require massive military
                    operations every few years. The cost of the current Gulf
                    adventure is at about $105B.
                    \_ We're not there for the sweet,sweet oil.  We're there to
                       battle Islamic terrorists who were operating freely
                       under a secular Stalinist dictatorship.
                       \_ Whoah. Somebody believes this?
                          \_ It's probably just sarcasm, but yes, some
                             people actually believe this.
                    \_ The 105 includes Afghanistan but anyway....
                       \_ No. Total appropriations in the two wars so far
                          have been about $150b.
                          \_ Oh, I thought you meant the current war plus
                             afghanistan, not gw1+gw2 and not afghanistan.
                             The numbers are similar.
                       \_ The 105B is for Iraq alone, but anyway...
                          http://costofwar.com/numbers.html
                          \_ It's always fun to play with numbers.  You do
                             understand that a lot of that money would have
                             been spent on people, weapon's maintenance and
                             training anyway, right?  Probably not, but it's
                             cool to think you know what you're talking about.
                             Gives you that "I'm smarter than you" feeling of
                             superiority even if it's false.
        \_ I like that idea, but I think there is a better way to spend the
           money.  How about instead of buying efficient cars for everyone, we
           give everyone a lobotomy so they won't _like_ gas-guzzlers (and
           while we are at it, we can make sure they won't discriminate based
           on race, or want a handgun in their home).  In fact, we might as
           well make sure they will all agree abortions are ok.  Sure, it will
           be expensive, and there is a slight loss of free will, but think of
           how much better off our society will be! -- ilyas
           \_ that was an awesome ilyas style rant.  it's quite easy
              to poke fun at people truly concerned with how global
              energy resources are being rapidly depleted without offering
              anything remotely like a viable solution by somehow linking
              this all to gun ownership, abortion, and paranoid extreme
              libertarian sexual fantasies.
              \_ (a) The op was a troll, not a concerned citizen.  Buying
                     everyone a hybrid is a stupid idea for practical reasons
                     (as others pointed out), as well as moral reasons.
                 (b) I do have an alternative.  Do nothing (at the government
                     level).  Let's check back in 20 years to see who is right.
                     If I am wrong, I ll eat my words, like Mr. O'Reilly did.
                     Will you?  You didn't even sign your name. -- ilyas
           \_ [ non-sequitur deleted ]
              \_ Did that deletion make you feel better, though?
                 \_ The non-sequitur wasn't really insulting, but it was
                    random.  Patriot Act?  wtf?
                     \_ Ah. So ilyas jumps from hybrids to lobotomies to
                        abortion, but my extending his statement about "loss
                        of free will" to the most recent source of govt
                        infringement of civil liberties is a non sequitur.
                        Just making sure I follow.
                        \_ You are barking up the wrong tree.  I don't like
                           the Patriot Act.  I also don't like grand schemes
                           for 'societal betterment' at taxpayer expense, which
                           was the point I was trying to make in that clumsy
                           way of mine.  Also, I was under the impression the
                           main danger of the Patriot Act was the increase
                           in spying powers of the government, rather than
                           explicit prohibitions.  The only possible relevance
                           explicit prohibitions. -- ilyas
                           of PA to op's post is that it is "a bad thing the
                           conservatives did" rather than "a bad thing a
                           liberal is proposing we do."  You can always make
                           another thread to laugh at conservative stupidity,
                           there is plenty to go around. -- ilyas
                           \_ Invading Iraq is a pretty grand scheme and it
                              has cost a fortune.  So far the big results are:
                              Saddam Hussein in jail so he can no longer
           \_ Your reaction is very interesting, ilyas, especially all the
              extensions you make. Did somebody maybe press a button?
              which use Li, not Pb.
                              threaten us with non-existant WMD, Iraq going
                              from oil exporter to oil importer, everyone in
                              the world even MORE pissed off at us, and 500+
                              soldiers dead.  My point was, if we are going
                              to spend billions and billions of dollars, why
                              not just spend directly on stuff that we know
                              will actually make a difference as opposed to
                              stuff that might fix problems.
                              \_ I thought I was the only conservative
                                 isolationist on the motd.  Did you vote for
                                 Pat, too?
        \_ Hybrids are a ruse.  They make people feel better about wasting
           resources--it's like residential recycling programs, which make
           practically no impact on resource usage.  If we really wanted
           50 MPG cars, we could do that with or without making them hybrid,
           and hybrids have additional toxic waste problems.  -tom
           \_ By toxic waste, surely you're not refering to the batteries,
              which use Li, not Pb.
           \_ Yes, some smaller cars are already close to 50mpg but it would
              mean making them even smaller and lighter which seems unsafe.
              \_ bigger, heavier cars are more dangerous than smaller, lighter
                 cars.
                 \_ no.
                    \_ do you not understand the concept of kinetic energy?
2004/3/3-5 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:12497 Activity:nil
3/3     Is there an alternative to AAA for roadside assistance coverage that
        doesn't lobby the state to build more freeways?  I want the towing,
        I don't like AAA's political agenda.  Thanks.
        \_ 21st Century includes towing with their insurance.  Others might.
           \_ I have towing with Amica but the service sucks hard compared to
              AAA. Waits typically three times as long and sulry second rate
              service from whoever eventually shows up. -- ulysses
        \_ I have never heard of this, do they want more highway
           maintenance, or more freeways?  Where can you build more freeways
           in california?  are you talking about private toll roads?
           \_ My aunt works for them, and she's mentioned some stuff like this.
              http://betterworldclub.com/memberbenefits/AAA/AAA_record.htm
              http://betterworldclub.com/newsroom/articles/Harpers_May2002.htm
              It's not terrible stuff they do, they're not Enron-- more like
              AARP, selling out but trying to maintain a good rep.
              \_ How does the roadside (car) asssistance plan compare to AAA
                 in terms of service quality?
        \_ The RAC but you have to wear a coat and tie to get into the
           clubhouse.  -John
        \_ Most car dealerships offer roadside assistance programs with their
           cars.  Also, many insurance companies offer it with their coverage.
           \_ 9 out of 10 times it's subcontracted through AAA
        \_ http://www.betterworldclub.com
           Endorsed by Car Talk.
        \_ I thought AAA is better than other insurance provider because it's
           non-profit.
           \_ Actually, I've heard from a couple of folks that AAA insurance
              sucked, especially given how expensive it is. Low quality service
              following an actual accident was the complaint in both cases.
              BTW, Amica being a "mutual insurance company" is also not-for-
              profit.
           \_ the part of AAA doing roadside assistance  is different than the
              insurance part.
2004/2/9 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:12168 Activity:kinda low
2/8     Any Prius drivers out here?  Your feedback?  I hear bad things
        about the high cost of frequent battery replacements, but would
        like some first-hand accounts.  Thanks.
        \_ The brake lights are set too high so it blinds the driver behind
           the Prius.  Whiplash, anyone?
          \_ did you get the Prius at MSRP?  It appears the Civic Hybrid is
           \_ Also, military, law and politics, the usual careers for
              ambitious men, were closed to Jews in Europe, due to
              anti-Semitism. So moneylending and trading were the
              only professions available.
             not as near as the Prius Price/Value wise.
        \_ Battery warranty on the 2004 Prius is 8 years / 100,000 miles.
           I read that the cost of a 2003 battery is $5,200, but no one
           has needed to replace it in the ~ 3 years the 2003 Prius has been
           out.  obGoogle, 2004 prius battery cost.
        \_ I really want to buy a hybrid vehicle, but why must they always
           \_ Check out the Hybrid Humvee.
           \_ Are you talking about the 2004 Prius?  It looks much better
              than the 2003.  I've already seen a few of the 2004 on the road,
              and you get used to it fast.  There are worse looking Toyotas
              that are non-hybrid (Matrix?).
           \_ the new Prius styling is really sleak. however, someone mentioned\
              during raining days, you'll get a splash of water from the car
              right into your seat. It appears everyone is getting the Prius
              at least MSRP.
        \_ Battery warranty on the 2004 Prius is 8 years / 100,000 miles.
           I read that the cost of a 2003 battery is $5,200, but no one
           has needed to replace it in the ~ 3 years the 2003 Prius has been
           out.  obGoogle, 2004 prius battery cost.
           have such lame styling?  The Prius is a nice car but it looks like
           those cars from Back To The Future Pt. 2.  The Civic Hybrid just
           looks like a Civic, which of course Honda has been gradually
           uglifying for the last 10 years.
2004/1/9 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:11727 Activity:nil
1/8     Are there any mass-production hybrid vehicles that also let you
        recharge it by plugging in to an electric outlet?
        \_ whatever happened to Honda's hybrid vehicles? I gotta say, when
           Insight came out, I was impressed, but its technology is getting
           outdated and obsolete by Toyota. What's up with Honda's research
           team?
           \_ They have had a hybrid Civic out for a year or two. I see a
              lot of them on the roads around here.
           \_ I wish Toyota dadded hybrid to the 2004 Sienna, since they were
              re-designing it anyway.
        \_ It would require an extra component in the car, and wouldn't really
           save fossil fuels or money (unless you had solar cells on your house
           or something like that)
           \_ If you have solar cells on your house and it generates more than
              you consume, PG&E doesn't let you sell the surplus power to
              them.  So recharging a hybrid (or electric) vehical with the
              surplus power will be a good way to save fossil fuel and your
              money.  Or, if you get your power from a green source like
              Commonwealth Energy instead of PG&E, that'd save fossil fuel too.
2004/1/7-8 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:11700 Activity:high
1/6     http://www.lexus.com/models/hybrid  The world's first hybrid luxury SUV.
        I'm going to buy one!  I've avoided buying a prius because it's too
        small.  But this announcement from toyota changes everything.
        \_ it's not out yet
        \_ Is that thing really much bigger than a Prius? They said the
           new Prius is supposed to be as roomy as a Camry inside. You
           probably can't tow stuff with that SUV. Just admit you're
           in it for the yuppie trendiness.
           \_ The Prius is not as roomy as a Camry.  Much closer to an Echo.
              \_ "new Prius" too?
              \_ Saw the "new Prius" over the weekend.  I say it is
                 between Corolla and Camry.  The exterior styling is
                 still kinda out there.
                 \_ Someone overwrote my post, but Edmunds stats would say
                    the same thing. I'm testdriving one today. Too bad the
                    Prius is only a $1500 tax break whereas the Hummer is a
                    $50000 tax break.
                    \_ Isn't the prius a $1500 tax _refund_?  Also, the Hummer
                       is only a tax break if you file a schedule C, i think.
                       \_ Prius has a $1500 credit for your AGI.  So it is
                          a credit for your taxable income, not a refund
                          to the actual tax.
                    \_ Check out the Hybrid Humvee: 10mph higher top speed,
                       twice as fast in 0-50mph, 2.5 times faster climbing 60%
                       grade, twice fuel economy.  And for the military or if
                       you're spying on your SO, it can run stealth (no sound,
                       no IR).  1/5/98
                       http://evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html
           \_ Lexus claims the hybrid will have _more_ power than the
              gasoline engine.
              \_ That's easy.  Just use the same engine and add in an electric
                 too.
                 \_ Yeah, but you have to fit everything under the hood.
2003/11/19 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:11135 Activity:nil
11/18   Anyone know what happened to the Toyota RAV4 EV?  There's no longer the
        EV in 2004.  Was it design flaw?  High maintenance?
        \_ no buyers?
        \_ Think they committed to hybrid stuff like the Priapism instead.
                                                hehe LOL! _/
           \_ hey don't joke about priapisms.  the sufferers are some of the
              least happy men around.  it might be you one day.  (hehehe)
2003/11/15-16 [Industry/Jobs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:11097 Activity:nil
11/15   When IT jobs disappear
        http://news.com.com/2010-1022-5106494.html
        \_ All this lumping of IT together is inane.  Just because few car
           manufacturing jobs are left in the US doesn't mean all car jobs are
           gone.  If you're not the brains behind your company, or you're not
           doing a job that requires you to be on-site, you might as well be
           manufacturing buggy-whips.  Otherwise, your job is likely safe...for
           now.
           \_ la la la!  I'm a sysadmin, not a java monkey, la la la, gotta
              be on site, got job security, la la la!  One day I'll also be
              fat *and* a libertarian! --skinny employed onsite sysadmin
                \_ But how much money do you make?
                   \_ $120k/year with a raise coming by Xmas.  You?  -seos
2003/7/17 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:29068 Activity:moderate
7/16    ilyas, can you point out URLs that will scientifically prove
        (via chemistry or what not) that sugar kills the engine? And
        how much sugar per gallon is required?
        \_ http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Archive/2001/February/02.html
           Unfortunately it doesn't RUIN the engine. I need an alternative
           additive that'll do just that.
        \_ think: solidified grains of crystal going thru and fucking up
           fuel lines, clogging up injectors, etc.  scratching up previously
           clean surfaces.
           \_ think: fuel filter
        \_ why not set the car on fire
        \_ If you're trying to get back at someone, try stuffing prawn heads
           or limburger in his airco.  Battery acid/brake fluid on the paint
           lets you write nice things that eat into the body.  -John
2003/7/3-4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:28910 Activity:high
7/3     http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e21/forum.php?postid=3378984&page=1
        \_ followup (shortened): http://csua.org/u/3gy
                \_ Vaguely related--in Germany there is a large problem with
                   "car forgery".  Eastern Europeans (mainly Poles) build
                   copies of luxury cars in their garages and sell them at
                   cut (but still high) prices on German car flea markets.
                   It's the ignorant and greedy who get caught by it, but some
                   of the wheels are amazingly well done (while some have
                   ridealong lawnmower engines.)  This is pretty amusing:
                   http://www.unf-unf.de/show.php?did=316       -John
        \_ (very very) long story short: some poor sap flys all the way from
           Spokane to West Palm Beach to buy a BMW that he thinks is a good
           deal based on a phone conversation with the seller. He forks over
           $10K CASH, and when the car breaks down as he's driving it home he
           finds out its been stolen. what a loser.
           \_ he doesn't seem that greedy, he just belongs to that
              weird world of BMW fetishization.  the guys starts
              cleaning the damn thing before he even gets it back
              to his home state (which I guess was good since it
              allowed him to see more flaws in the car's story)
        \_ fuck you. i just wasted an hour at work reading that entertaining
           story.
           \_ ditto that.
        \_ When you at your greediest, you are most vulnerable.  Divest
           yourself of greed and people won't be able to screw you like this.
           Con artists can also prey on your loneliness, your stupidity,
           and to a lesser extent, your pity.  But greed is definitely the
           worst.  Greed is the most common lever used to pry an idiot away
           from his money.
           \_ The buyer didn't strike me as particularly greedy.  But I
              wouldn't fly cross country for a 'good deal,' not when so
              many would be in California.
        \_ Some lessons to learn:
           1. A fool and his money are soon parted.
           2. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
           \_ 3. BMW enthusiasts are idiots even when they're not driving. -tom
                \_ Most enthusiasts are idiots even when they're not doing
                   something they're enthusiastic about.  -John
              \_ damn it! i agree with tom about something.
                        \_ A stopped clock is right twice a day.
                           \_ Or every few months in this case.
                 \_ Old jungle saying:
                    Its spelled B-M-W but its pronounced IDIOT!
                    \_ Ever own one? If you did you'd see why. I've started
                       doing idiot things like double-parking and cutting
                       people off. It started slowly, but BMWs are FUN TO
                       DRIVE and that leads to a little recklessness.
                        \_ My dad has three. He drives like a world
                           class jerk. The best was when someone in
                           a 3 series tried to pass him in the shoulder
                           and he rolled down his window and shouted
                           "7 is bigger than 3!" (he was driving his
                           7 series that day) and then proceeded to
                           hog the left lane and the shoulder for
                           the next several miles.
                           I've driven his BMWs and I just don't see
                           it, they drive like almost every other
                           luxury car out there. Personally I think
                           that a STi is much more fun to drive and
                           you can coax it to do lots more things
                           (on and off road) than any BWM.
                 \_ so what "enthusiasts" are not idiots, opinion master?
                    you name it, i can crap on it. whee!
2003/4/3-4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:27965 Activity:moderate
4/3     My car's engine light just went on last it.  It's a 1997 Chevrolet
        Caviler.  Got any reliable and reasonable priced mechanic anywhere on
        the East Bay?  Doesn't matter if it's North or South East Bay.  Best if
        it's open on the weekends.
        \_ Marty's Motors.  Mostly imports, but if he's not up to the work
           he will say so and help you find someone who is.
        \_ 5th Street Garage in Oakland. I think the owner is a berkeley alum.
           they are open saturdays.
        \_ Campus Auto on Shattuck.
        \_ I had a very good experience with Fred's Wrench in Alameda.
           Aamco told me my transmission fluid smelled burnt and that I'd
           probably have to replace the whole thing ($1100).  Fred took me out
           for a spin so I could show him the problem, recommended a fuel
           additive to get rid of the knocks, and replaced my motor mounts for
           1/3 the price I'd been quoted elsewhere.  He told me the
           transmission was going downhill but given the age of the car it was
           better just to slowly change the fluid about a quart at a time.
           It's been 1.5 years now and it's still chugging along.
           \_ My experience and the experience of people I know is that
              while some independent places are good and some are bad, the
              big chain places will *always* rip you off.  Same with dentists.
              \_ Agreed.  Never get your brakes changed at PepBoys.  Somehow
                 they "forgot" a lugnut when putting my tire back on.
                 \_ at 5th st garage they accidentally broke a lug nut, but
                    fixed it for free. supposedly my type of car this happens
                    a lot and most places will usually charge you regardless.
              \_ I have gotten good cheap service from Midas shops outside
                 the Bay Area, but the one on Van Ness is a ripoff -ausman
                 \_ I had some break damage, went to the Midas in Fremont.
                    They quoted me $950 lowball.  I went to a mom/pop around
                    the corner.  Did the job for $600.  Midas sucks for
                    anything outside of a pad swap on special.  --scotsman
           \_ Check out recommendations at the following url
              http://parents.berkeley.edu/recommend/services/mechanic.html
              --chris
2003/3/21 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:27779 Activity:insanely high
3/21    Food for thought.  Each Abrahams Tank holds 500 gallons of fuel
                                \_ heehee
        and eats 1 and 3/4 gallons per mile (gpm).  There're tens of
        thousands of them traveling from Kuwait to Baghdad (300 miles?)
        \_ I have the feeling that scarcity of gas is the last thing
           anybody's worried about in that part of the world.  -John
        \_ There's 441 M1a1 tanks there right now.  Come back when you
           have some idea what you're talking about.  And I don't think
           a few hundred gallons of gas per tank is a serious issue, trollboy.
           \_ http://www.mstp.quantico.usmc.mil/publications/pamphlets/Pamphlet5_0_3/MSTPP%205-0.3%20Part%20II.pdf
              505 gallon capacity, 289 mile maximum effective range.
              And, yes, I was wrong about tens of thousands of them, but
              what I meant was that there are tens of thousands of vehicles,
              planes, ships, etc. that eat obscene amount of fuel.
              \_ Yes, they eat obscene amounts of fuel.  They're built for war,
                 not getting a consumer to the supermarket.  You think they
                 should go in Hondas?  That'd be fuel efficient because war is
                 all about fuel efficiency.  Now that you've learned something
                 and restated your original point, what exactly was the reason
                 you tried to make it in the first place?
              \_ Someone is already designing hybrid HMMWVs which doubles both
                 the acceleration and the MPG over the standard ones, plus
                 1/4 emission, higher top speed, and longer range:
                 http://www.evworld.com/archives/reports/humvee99.html
                 Also see other hybrid army vehicles:
                 http://www.tacom.army.mil/tardec/electric_drive/motors/sld007.htm
2002/10/27-28 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:26336 Activity:very high
10/28   So why is it that gas prices in the bay area (any city, any station)
        are higher and sometimes *much* higher than the isolated, zero
        competition stations on the I-5?  What's the excuse for that BS?
        \_ gas/food/utility is a small fraction of your housing expense.
           Why don't anyone bitch about that?
        \_ They've admitted all along that gas prices are based in part
           on income levels of the zip code.  Then throw in the cost of
           doing business in the bay area, and there you are.
        \_ Buy a hybrid
        \_ My first thought would be land expense.  Also, how about taxes?
           There might be far higher taxes in urban areas.  --PeterM
           \_ When I drove the I5 in '89, gas was about 50% higher on the I5
              than here.  I'm not aware of any changes in the tax rates that
              would account for 10% lower on the I5 now.
              would account for 10% lower on I-5 now.
        \_ supply and demand. No matter how expensive the gas is your wealthy
           next-door-retired-HP/IBM/Intel-guy-who-worked-here-for-30-years
           when-a-3000-sq-ft-house-in-SJ-was-only-$80,000 will still pay for
           the gas, lowering competition. That's why BA sucks. Let's all
           leave! I did and I'm happy.
           \_ amen on that, man.  fuck the bay area.  i pay 25% less in gas
              or so, *and* i walk to work every day from a decent home.
           \_ When the next gas is 30 to 60 miles and your typical driver has
              another 200+ miles to go, I'd say supply is low and demand is
              high on the I5.  I think you might have something with the "Bay
              Area people are just stupid" concent, though.
              \_ More people live here than travel along I5.  Why is demand
                 necessarily high?  Besides, people are more inclined to be
                 picky if they know they are going to spend a large sum on
                 gas in the next few hours.
           \_ bullshit.  it's collusion.
        \_ a Hydrogen/Solar economy is inevitable.
              \- There are two major variables you can collpase this to
                 per occam to get good quality explanation: 1. REGULATION
                 2. COMPETITION. The regulations explain why production
                 costs in califnornia are higher and (surprise) explain why
                 costs of gas are high all over CA. 2. As for why gas prices
                 are higher in Bay Area than Los Angles, that is largely
                 competition [LA has more gas stations per unit area].
                 A third factor, production costs [I am including shipping
                 from production site, to refining site, refining costs,
                 jobber costs,and finally shipping to pump], probably
                 contributes some ... large diameter pipelines are the cheapest
                 way to move oil ... and there is no lg diameter pipeline to
                 CA ... however supertankers are actually pretty cheep, and
                 if this were the largest contributing factor, you would think
                 Hawaii would have the most expensive gas, but SF started to
                 pass Hawaii a little while back. You can discover this and
                 more via emacs M-x analyze-local-petrolium-mkt. You may
                 need to do a (setq calendar-latitude +38.9)
                              (setq calendar-longitude -122.25)
                     guess what, the Bay and the I5 are both in CA and suffer
                 first, however. ok tnx, --psb
                 \_ all of which fails to address the question, which is
                    "why are gas prices higher in the Bay Area than on I-5",
                     guess what, the Bay and I-5 are both in CA and suffer
                     from the same regulation.  And as for competition,
                     it always seems to me that gas stations on I-5 are
                     crowded all the time, while gas stations in the Bay
                     are not so busy.  If anything, it argues for economies
                     of scale on I-5 vs local stations in the Bay.
                     What about land expense, taxation, and lower labor costs,
                     also?
                     \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?  Try looking into the
                        regulations before presuming they're statewide.
                        \_ I was criticizing psb, who only mentioned CA
                           regulations.  He made no claims about regional
                           regulation.
                           \_ criticizing on what he _didn't_ say... train
                           be diff in the i-5 case. what you need to look at
                              harder.
                     \_ Land is cheap along I-5, but expensive in the BA.
                        \- "crowded" is not the measure of competition.
                           the franchise terms and jobber set ups may also
                           isnt a matter of competition. if the i5 gas station
                           be diff in I-5 case. what you need to look at
                           are profit margins. a higher price can reflect
                           either higher costs, perceived product differen-
                           tiation or rents/mkt/power/less competition.
                           if the price is higher due to higher costs, that
                           isnt a matter of competition. if an I-5 gas station
                           has a larger profit margin, that may be an
                           interesting phenomenon looking for an explanation.
                           the mcdonalds outside the grand canyon has really
                           high prices. is it because they have a monopoly
                           from the park? no. it is outside the park in BF
                           nowhere ... where rents cannot possibly be high.
                           while they are the only fast food place there, that
                           is still not a monopoly because of the idea of
                           contestability [if they were making undue profits
                           then someone else would open up a restuarant].
                           so the real explanation is costs. it turns out you
                           basically have to run a dorm for your crew to have
                           them live in BF nowhere. --psb
                           \- BTW, there is an interesting discussion in
                              Kwoka & White: The antitrust revolution:
                              economics, competition, and policy
                                         ok tnx, --psb
        \_ This is a troll... I was on the I-5 over the weekend and it was
           almost always more expensive on the 5 than in Berkeley.
           Berkeley ~ $1.45; I saw up to $1.89 on the 5.
           \_ Maybe not: http://csua.org/u/476
        \_ Collusion. Why does everyone ignore the obvious?
2002/9/30-10/1 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:26061 Activity:moderate
9/30    On a Toyota Prius or Honda Insight, is there a neutral gear on the
        transmission?  What happens if you put it in neutral and then step on
        the "gas" pedal?
        \_ My coworker has a Honda Civic hybrid (not Insight) and the
           transmission is continuously variable. There are no "gears".
           Perhaps Insight and Prius are, too? --dim
           \_ It has a neutral. All cars do.
        \_ Prius?  Insight?  Might as well RIDE BIKE! and USE LINUX!  Get a
           hummer!  Go anywhere!  Park anywhere!
        \_ gas is by default. Electric kicks in when you don't have enuf
           powa. So my guess is that it'll be just like revving up yer gin.
2002/9/26-27 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:26015 Activity:high
9/26    My 1995 Nissan Altima has about 112,000 miles.  In December 2000,
        the "Brake" and "battery" lights came on.  Within a couple days,
        the car died and I had to replace the alternator.  The same thing
        happened again in June 2001.  Now, the "Brake" and "Battery" lights
        are on again.  If history repeats itself, the car will die again
        within a few days.  And the mechanic will say I need to replace the
        alternator.  But I suspect that the problem may not ultimately be
        with the alternator.  Has anyone had this experience with their
        car?  What was the ultimate problem?  Is it be better to take the
        car to a dealer (I guess my warrantee is over), a private mechanic,
        or somewhere like Sears?  What is the problem likely to be, and how
        much should I expect to pay?  -asb
        \_ I had the same thing happen on my toyota.  Though with mine,
           replacing the alternator solved it.  Was the first replacement
           a new component?  Was there any warranty on it?  You may want
           to do a whole inspection of the electrical systems.  Check the
           distributor for a short or something.  Also there may be a timing
           problem that's stressing the alternator. --scotsman
           \_ good advice. alternators should last a lot longer that this.
              might want to check out your voltage regulator as it might
              be making your alternator work harder than it has to.
        \_You didn't mention it, but I hope that you're replacing the
          battery each time.  If not, your alternator will burn itself
          out trying to charge a dead cell.

vi user was here
2002/9/20-21 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:25959 Activity:nil
9/19    Ultimate Race Mod for a Sentra:
        http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0208_scared
        \_ That was really funny. Thanks.
           \_ It was?
2002/4/25 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:24573 Activity:high
4/24    Segway's first customer is Atlanta:
        http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/04/24/segway.testing/index.html
        \_ Charge it for 6 hours, and only 15 miles per charge? _NOW_ I'm
           convinced nothing too major will come of it. Multi-billion-dollar
           niche my ass.
           \_ D00D U R 50 WR0NG! S3GW4Y 15 50 '1337! 17 R0X! S3GW4Y H45 1075
              0F R00M T0 GR0W! JU57 L1K3 P4 & 174N1C!
           \_ I heard it runs Linux.  Now I want one!  /.
              \_ debian/gnoo linux or 3V1L R3D H47?
                 \_ k3wl-d00de l1nux!!1  1tz k3l3rZ d@n d3b1@n/\/\/\gn00!!!11
                    t0eT2ll33 318!!!!
2002/4/15-16 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Science/Battery] UID:24444 Activity:very high
4/15    How often do people usually replace their car batteries?  My car
        battery died this morning even though I didn't leave any lights on.
        It's the original battery since I bought the car new in 1996.  Thx.
        \_ that's reasonable.  2-4 years perhaps, and if you drive short
           distances more than long distance, battery life can be shorter.
           Its time to get a new battery, though seeing if the battery
           can hold a charge can be a good idea if the battery is newer
           than, let's say, 3 years.
        \_ My car battery lasted for 7 years, and it died because my
           starter went all wonky.  I'm probably an anomaly. -geordan
        \_ It could be your alternator, too.  Never hurts to check.
        \_ Or distributor cap and rotor.
        \_ about every 7-10 years.
        \_ The deal should replace it for you ever three years or so.
        \_ The dealer should replace it for you ever three years or so.
        \_ 5 Years, typically... if you don't abuse it.  Then again,
           depend upon where you are.  I heard that battery last a bit
           longer in a colder climate.     someone flunked ChE176
                                           \_ not to mention E190.
        \_ i had a battery last 10 years in an old toyota truck. current
           audi will probably only make 5.  i blame the alarm etc. for
           sucking juice while the engine is off.
2002/2/20-21 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:23923 Activity:insanely high
2/20    Is it really true that BMWs are theft proof because of that chip in
        the key?
        \_ NOTHING is theft proof. Theft-resistant, but not theft-proof.
           \_ Not even the one James Bond drove.
        \_ related note:  how many of you actually shell out $700 for the
           GPS tracker security system or $900 for the alarm system?
           \_ I outfitted my car with "Lethal Deterrent".  And it doesn't
           even drain the battery!
        \_ Of course not.  What if the thief has a tow truck?  What if the
           thief plans ahead and bribes someone at BMW to get him the key
           for your car?  Difficult and unlikely, yes.  Impossible, no.
        \_ Follow up question : Is there concrete data on this stuff anywhere?
           \_ You're on the motd.  There is no concrete data here.
        \_ No.  However, it takes a little more skill, a few more tools, and
           a little more time to steal a BMW because of those chips (VWs and
           Audis too).  All of those will cut down on theft.
        \_ anything you do that requires the thief to physically have the
           proper key (i.e. GM's VATs, the lasercut lexus keys, the bmw chip
           etc - is just goin gto increase the carjacking incidents)
           - ex AAA Automobile Locksmith.
           \_ hi paolo, er, prole... er, pst
           \_ Only if they want the car that badly.
        \_ Basically, it comes down to: is the car worth the time to steal?
           If you can steal an unarmed car in 15 seconds vs. one with an
           alarm, a Club, etc in 60 seconds, most likely the unarmed one
           will be taken first.
           \_ not if the unarmed one isn't worth taking.
              \_ well, goes w/o saying, don't park your 535i next to a Pinto.
                 \_ 535i ?  What do you think this is, 1999?  I can't afford
                    that shit.  I only have a 325Ci.
           \_ Practically any car can be stolen if a thief wants it. Thieves
              don't use a lot of the same logic we do, either. I've seen
              older cars stolen that were parked right next to much nicer
              and newer cars. My neighbor had a Saturn (!) stolen that was
              parked next to Hondas, Cadillacs, a BMW, an Acura, and a Porsche
              (none of which had alarms that were armed). My dad was
              carjacked for his beaten-up 1982 Toyota pickup! All you can
              do is your best. Things like Lojack will help you get your
              car back, if you think you want it back after it's been
              stripped. --dim
              \_ I guess that what car they want to steal depends on the
                 current demand in the used parts market.
           \_ This is not related to cars, but I've heard stories where someone
              on campus had a crappy bike and locked it with at Kryptonite
              bike lock that costed more than the bike, yet the bike was still
              stolen.
              \_ I've had a friend who got his *junky* bike stolen off a
                 balcony of a 3rd floor apartment.  The bike theifs in
                 Berkeley will go any distance to steal even a piece of crap.
2002/1/9-10 [Science/GlobalWarming, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:23512 Activity:very high
1/9     About fuel-cell automobiles, since it runs on hydrogen, where does
        the hydrogen come from?  Thx.
        \_ fuel-cells don't run on hydrogen.
           \_ some do, some don't.
           \_ Yes, they do.  And it is either re-refined from gasoline
              or natural gas, or by a number of other processes external
              to the system.
              http://www.fuelcells.org/whatis.htm
              \_ So since producing hydrogen requires energy from other
                 sources, fuel cells don't really solve the energy problem,
                 right?
                 \_ Well, they are up to 3 times more efficient than ICE
                    on the same fuels, so they help.  and efficiency is
                    a high priority in the research, rather than maximization
                    of oil profits, so the attitude alone helps.  Also,
                    emissions are much lower on the same fuel, which also
                    helps.  No, it doesn't "solve" the "energy problem", but
                    ... it helps.
        \_ The sun.
        \_ honda is coming out with hybrid civics for $20k in march.
           \_ How many MPG does it get?
                \_ Make any car small enough to carry on your bike and it'll
                   get great gas mileage.  Earlier electrics and some hybrids
                   were rejected because they were too small to drive safely
                   on the highways.  They couldn't be any bigger without
                   losing most of their efficiency.  When I can get a hybrid
                   or eletric or whatever car that doesn't weigh less than I
                   do I'd consider one.
                   \_ I was just wondering how it'll compare to the Insight
                      and the 5-seat Prius.
        \_ Isn't hydrogen flammable? Hindenberg car?
           \_ Isn't gasoline flammable?
           \_ The Hindenberg caught fire because of flammable paint, not
              hydrogen.
              \_ This doesn't negate the fact that hydrogen is indeed
                 cumbusts with air.
                 \_ "cumbusts"... too much porn on the brain.
                 flammable.  You get a nice little explosion when it
                 combusts with air.  [spellingd was here]
                 \_ pr0n aside, one of the big challenges w/ using H directly
                    is finding a stable enough matrix to make it safe and
                    cheap to store (no crazy supercooling, etc).  I've seen
                    several avenues of exploration using a variety of
                    stable chemical compounds (using, boron I think) that are
                    subsequently mixed with something to release the 'stored'
                    H which is then 'burned' 'on demand' for energy.  -mice
                    \_ Can we store hydrogen on vehicles same way as propane
                       (or is it butane) vehicles?  Propane is also gas and it
                       explodes, but people seem to think propane vehicles are
                       safe.
              \_ More specifically, with what we now call solid rocket fuel.
           \_ don't most metals absorb hydrogen readily, making them brittle?
2001/11/27-28 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:23114 Activity:high
11/27   Does over-inflating the tires improve gas mileage?  I tried
        over-inflating the tires on my truck by 5 PSI and I hardly notice any
        improvement.  (It's a Jeep Cherokee.)
        \_ They have a PSI rating for a reason.  You're going to improve your
           mileage by some meaningless amount while decreasing the life of your
           tires a *lot* which means new tires sooner and increased chances of
           a blowout which could get you and others killed.  Stop trying to be
           a genius and just do what the maniufacturer says.  They know better
           than you do.  Put your tires back.
           \_ The rating is used for average driving. If you're going on a long
              driving trip, it's ok to go a few PSI over what you would use for
              street driving. The PSI rating is merely an average.
           \_ But the rated PSI for a vehicle takes comfort among other things
              into consideration while I'm willing to sacrifice comfort.  So
              \_ I thought yermom was a ho only at night, not during the day.
              I'm willing to put up with a bumpy ride for better gas mileage.
                \_ The PSI rating sets your tires at a rate where they wear
                   out as safely as possible and last as long as possible.  You
                   have shocks to ease the ride.  Over inflating your tires
                   makes a bad blowout more likely as opposed to a regular
                   flat.  At highway speeds you can drive your flat to the
                   shoulder.  You might not be able to drive your blowout
                   safely to the shoulder.  Please set your tires properly or
                   get off the roads you share with the rest of us.
        \_ Overinflated tired on a hot day on asphault going fast = bad idea.
           \_ I thought under-inflation heats up tires, not over-inflation.
              \_ http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mauto849.htm
        \_ you'll get a much bigger effect on gas mileage by slowing down
           a little, especially on such an aerodynamically inefficent vehicle
           as the cherokee.  Other driving habits will have a huge effect on
           mileage too, such as drafting big vans/trucks as well as cutting
           back on rapid acceleration and unnecessary braking.  tire inflation
           only helps if they were underinflated (underinflation is sometimes
           helpful when off-roading, as it improves traction).  YMMV
        \_ I have a Jeep Wangler TJ - I run 40psi on the street and 20psi
           off-road.  My tires are rated to 44psi, so I am still under the
           limit.  Also Jeep recommends 32psi, that is because they do use
           the tires to help cushion your ride (everyone else here doesn't
           realize what a true off-road vehicle is set up for).
           Only caveat, make sure you have quality tires if you want to
           play with the pressure, BFG, GY, Michelin, etc.
           And yes, I do see a couple of miles/gallon difference!
           And yes again, the ride is much more bumpy.
        \_ Have you actually done the math on what slight gas-milage
           improvements actually saves you?  If you really want to save on
           gas, don't drive a fucking Cherokee.
           \_ Well, I'm getting 25+ mpg on freeway which is not terrible,
              probably because I don't speed.  Besides, I take public transit
              to go to work everyday even though it takes longer than driving.
              That saves more gas than driving an Insight.  I'm just looking
              for more ways to save gas other than getting a new car when I
              need to drive to go on a trip.
                \_ Wow, how do you get 25+ mpg with your Wrangler? What
                   year is it? I only get 12-14 mpg on mine. Also, good
                   advice to the guy above. If you want to get better mpg,
                   don't drive a cherokee. A sedan will be better for you.
                   \_ It's 25+ mpg freeway on the Cherokee.  It's a '96
                      Cherokee Classic 4dr 4.0L 6cyl 5sp manual Command Trac
                      4WD.  I think if I got the 2.5L 2WD that year it'd do
                      even better mpg.
2000/12/12-14 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:20084 Activity:high
12/12   Does anyone know of a good website where I can get reasonably
        complete and objective evaluation of a variety of cars from a
        consumer's perspective (comfort, reliability, etc)?  I was
        thining of buying a new car, possibly a sports car...
        \_ Test drive them. Your needs are probably unique to you. I know
           people who hate sports cars, because the ride is rough. Sports
           car enthusiasts look at those wanting a smooth, quiet ride in
           disdain. If you drive them you'll find out really quickly which
           cars are for you. --dim
        \_ http://www.edmunds.com is a very good way to narrow your choices. -- Marco
           \_ I second that.
        \_ http://www.Oldsmobile.com Last chance!
        \_ epinions, carreview
        \_ The words of the prophets were written on the studio walls.
        \_ As much as I hate M$, http://carpoint.msn.com is a very good site for
           this sort of comparison.
        \_ Buy me your top 20 or 30 cars.  I'll drive them around for a few
           weeks each and report back to you.
        \_ http://www.carfree.com
        \_ Get the great new book, _Divorce_Your_Car_
           \_ this is written by "Hippie Press", following their great
              hit, "I want to live at home and be spoonfed like a baby by
              my parents - pass the bong please"
                \_ Cool.  Can I find that on Amazong?  They got anything on
                   how to hypnotise my parents into going for this?
        \_ http://www.honda.com solves all of your problems.
        \_ RIDE BIKE!
2000/2/24-26 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:17612 Activity:kinda low
2/24    Honda Insight: sliced bread or "dough!"? -nick
        \_ Everything in here is wrong except the bits about
           "dough", "sliced", and "insight:".
1998/12/30-31 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:15148 Activity:high
12/28   How often should I change the air filter on my car?  Thanks.
        \_ This should be in your manual.  Call the dealer if you don't have
           one.
        \_ Every 30k miles or so, but it varies a lot with driving conditions
           such as dusty roads, SoCal smog, and the like.
           \_ 30k miles a about a quarter of the average life of a car.
              Eveery 3k seems more reasonable.
        \_ There's only one way to filter the air with your car: DON'T DRIVE!
           \_ Kinda ironic that the same filthy air that your car creates
              needs to be filtered for your car to run smoothly.
            \_ It isn't ironic.  You can't survive breathing the same air you
               exhale any better than a car can.  Stop trying to be deep and
               Politically Correct.  Go wear a black turtle neck and down a
               few triple mocha espresso lattes south side if you're feeling
               clever or superior.  Come back when you're done.
           \_ Uh oh, the anti-auto "My only tool is a hammer" geniuses got
              out of their cages again.  While you're ragging on cars, let's
              talk about the amount of perfectly good water the chip industry
              spoils in their chip fabs.  Let's all stop using computers.  Do
              you read the newspaper?  Any clue how many trees that kills?
              Eat meat?  Slash'n'burn in S.America plus insane over crowding
              in chicken boxes in the US.  Are you veggie/vegan?  Where do you
              think all the funky veggie foods come from?  They get shipped in
              by some oil burning ocean going tranport.  What went into the
              production of that transport and the trucks that carried the
              food from there to the store?  Clue time people: ALL human
              activity is destructive to the environment.  Stop fooling
              yourselves.  The _only_ way to stop breaking the planet is to
              leave it (or just kill everyone off quietly).
              \_ Your argument is short of idiotic, sorry to say. The goal
                 of public policy is to limit things that are enivronmentally
                 distructive.  Chip fabs spoil about 0.0000...001% of all
                 the water in this world which is a miniscule amount whereas
                 automobiles emits millions of pounds of waste and toxins
                 every year.  No one ever said we should wipe cars off the
                 face of this earth but to limit the amount of emissions by
                 mass transportation, car pools, ev's, bicycle, hybrid cars,
                 cleaner burning cars, etc...
        \_ I check it periodically (often when I change oil) and if it
           looks overly dirty then I change it. Works better than some
           arbitrary number of miles. --dim
2017/12/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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