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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2018/12/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2006/10/12-14 [Reference/Military] UID:44787 Activity:nil
        Flight instructor who died with Cory Lidle:
        "Part of Stanger's job is to surprise students by simulating
        emergencies. He will pull the throttle to the idle position,
        essentially letting the plane coast as if the engine were failing."
        CNN:  "No confirmation that plane issued mayday call before hitting
        \_ "The whole plane has a parachute on it, ...... But if you're up in
           the air and something goes wrong, you pull that parachute, and the
           whole plane goes down slowly."  What?  Is that just a metaphor?
           \_ No, the plane has a Cirrus Aircraft Parachute System that lowers
              the whole plane to the ground.  Questionable effectiveness,
              one person got crushed vertebrate, another was flying too fast
              and the chute ripped off, another was in a death spiral and
              the chute didn't operate correctly
2006/10/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:44723 Activity:nil
10/7    Navy lawyer whose defense of Osama bin Laden's driver led to the
        Hamdan decision is forced into retirement by the Navy:
2006/10/5-7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44686 Activity:nil
        "Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union"
2006/9/20-22 [Reference/Military] UID:44469 Activity:nil
9/20    Gays on a plane!
2006/9/20-22 [Reference/Military] UID:44460 Activity:nil
9/20    Green Bay teens accused of plotting a Columbine like attack.
2006/9/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:44424 Activity:kinda low
9/18    Are M16s still used in the Army? Is it still inferier to AK47s
        in the real world, where it is outside of the perfect laboratory
        test conditions?
        \_ I dont't know much about guns.  But I think M16s are too long when
           you need to fight left and right from inside a Humvee.  AK47s are
           \_ Then use an M4 carbine.
        \_ Don't you watch SG-1?  The military all use FN P90s
           \_ Silly troll, the P90 is a good all-purpose weapon, but the show
              routinely uses MP5s, carbines, and other weaponry.
        \_ US marines firing AK-47:
        \_ Kalashnikov holding an M16, and Stoner an AK-47:
        \_ Obviously you  do not own any guns. You fire the gun that
           your job requires, and cost the least in the U.S. So FNC
           has been making M-16A2s for the Army for the last three
           rounds of purchasing. M4s are exclusively made by Colt.
           (The patent on making M-16s ran out a long time ago.)
           Those in know, know that AK-47 is NOT used by the forces of
           fUSSR. And in many cases you actually see an AK-74 (chambered
           in a similar 5.45 x 39 (as opposed to 5.56 x 45). Many
           Afghanis know the terminal effects of the 5.45. Whereas your
           typical terrorist might use the AK-47, it is usually less
           accurate than the M-16 (almost all variants) but has better
           range. 5.56 was originally a varmint hunting round. Ineffective
           close-up against drugged up targets without hitting a vital
           organ. Hence the move toward either 6.8 SPC / Grendel or
           blended metal rounds.  P90s now available in semi as PS-90
           outside of CA. - proud owner of many of the above.
           \_ Redneck:  Noun. An English speaker who uses the word "varmint"
              in any non-ironic context.
              \_ Clueless about guns. Remington .223 was a varmint hunting
                 round until it was adopted as the 5.56x45
           \_ PANCOR JACKHAMMER, BABY!  -John
        \_ AK-47 The Musical Version:
2006/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:44420 Activity:nil
9/18    Does the Right to Keep and Bear Arms [in certain states] include the
        right to keep grenades, mines, bazooka, artillery, tanks, or even
        chemical weapons? I'm guessing you can't own any of these in CA
        but what about other states?
2006/9/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:44419 Activity:nil
9/18    When we fought a proxy war with the Russians, we supplied Bin Laden
        with powerful weapons that drove the evil empire out of Afghanistan.
        How is it possible the primitive Afghans now are blowing us up with
        extremely powerful miniaturized bicycle bombs? Isn't it possible that
        as an act of revenge the Russians are now supplying the Afghans
        with weapons to fight with us?
        \_ doubt it.  russians have their own problems.
        \_ Afghanistan has 150+ years of resisting occupation forces under its
           belt. While it's true that our money helped the Mujahadeen there
           quite a bit, it's just as likely that Afghanistan would have bogged
           down and defeated the Russkies on its own. A similar thing is
           happening to us (and our allies) there now. Although it would
           perhaps be more comforting (in a bizarre way) to think that the
           resistance could only continue with outside technical help, it's
           much more likely that the Taliban is doing this completely in its
        \_ Read your history.  The US didn't give squat to Bin Laden--he wanted
           to kill us back then.  We supported the Northern Alliance.  Bin
           Laden was with the non-afghani mujahideen.  They were supplied by
           arab countries.
        \_ The Soviet Union has long gone.
2006/9/16-19 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44410 Activity:nil
9/16    Yaacov Lozowick, author of "Right To Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel's
        Wars," calls second Lebanon war "stupid"
        \_ Without billions extracted from unwitting Western
           countries?  Good luck.  Isreal is a refuge for mobsters and
           criminals fleeing justice.
2006/9/15-19 [Reference/Military] UID:44384 Activity:kinda low
9/15    Canadian Columbine:
        \_ Looks like all those gun control laws worked.
           \_ Maybe the place this happened had a rocket factory nearby in
              which case they all deserved it.
              \_ Yes, Michael Moore is an intellectually lazy and dishonest
                 asshole.  If you want to read an analysis of rage murders
                 by a brutally honest intellectually hyperactive genius
                 asshole instead, please read "Going Postal", by Mark Ames.
                 Unlike Michael Moore, he actually draws original conclusions
                 and supports those conclusions with painstaking scholarship.
                 \_ Is this the Mark Ames?
                    \_ Yes, but you see a very different side of him in this
                       book.  He seems to be able to channel that spastic
                       energy that helps him get through 9 whores in one night
                       into actual scholarship when it suits him. And unlike
                       most of Hunter Thompson's work, it's clear that he was
                       either totaly sober when he wrote this, or so brilliant
                       he could fight through the drugs somehow.
        \_ He was an aggressive anti-smoker, " A student told Sun Media the
           man had filtered through a crowd of smokers gathered at the
           school's entrance.  "There must have been some 50 people," said
           Cyrielle Vincent, 21. "We noticed him right away -- he stood out
           with his black coat and mohawk. Then he suddenly started firing
           away."  If only they banned smoking in Canada this might have never
           \_ He shot some smokers? Well that's all right then. They were
              probably giving him second hand smoke.
        \_ Dittoheads, remember:
           1) Any shooting that happens in another country is proof that
              gun control doesn't work
           2) Any shooting that happens in the U.S. is proof that we have
              too much gun control
           3) All statistics about gun deaths are irrelevant
           4) Remember Waco!
           \_ Don't forget 5) Switzerland
           \_ Don't forget 5) Switzerland             \_ What about it?
              \_ I love Switzerland.  That's where I funnel all my dirty
                 money.  Much better than the Cayman Islands.
2006/9/10-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44340 Activity:nil
9/10    Screw the War on Terrah, we need the War on Bad Driving.  There have
        been about 208,000 road deaths in the USA since Sept 11 2001,
        according to:
        Or how about a big budget ABC miniseries, "The Road to Bad Driving?"
2006/9/2-7 [Reference/Military] UID:44249 Activity:moderate
9/2     Only 44 years left to cut global green house emissions in half to
        avoid global warming effects.,20867,20332352-601,00.html
        \_ "The Government keeps throwing up the costs of action but totally
           ignores the costs of inaction."  This also applies to our govt's
        \_ I believe in Global Warming like I believe gun control works.
           \_ In countries were firearms are illegal, there are few gun
              deaths so obviously gun control doesn't work.
              \_ Yup.  The following stats deminstrates exactly how gun control
                                            \_ demonstrates
                 doesn't work:
                 "In the UK there are about, 100 firearms deaths a year in
                 the recorded crime statistics, about double that number in
                 Canada and, under 50 in Japan.  The figure in the United
                 States is more than 10,000. Even adjusting for population,
                 this is a huge difference."
                 Population for each country (2003 figures), and firearms
                 deaths a year per million people:
                 UK:             60,441,457       1.7
                 Canada:         32,805,041       6.1
                 Japan:         127,417,244     < 0.4
                 US:            295,734,134     >33.8
                 \_ Now post Switzerland, where gun ownership is common.
                 \_ For kicks I looked up the breakdown of firearms deaths in
                    the US.  When you pull out the suicides and the gang
                    killings the rate drops to about 24 with more than 2/3rds
                    of the remaining listed as "unknown".  So the death rate
                    for normal citizens in the US is anywhere between 8 and
                    24 on this scale which is still higher than other countries
                    in the West but our country is much safer in other ways and
                    you still have the right to defend yourself and others
                    here unlike in the UK, for example.
                 \_ I hope there's a riot in your neighborhood and you
                    find yourself needing a gun. Trusting the same government
                    that you want out of your bedroom with your gun rights.
                    Why don't we ban cars, since they "kill" more people
                    than guns. I'm glad there are bean counters like you
                    who have so much faith in police (who your cohorts
                    in the 4th estate often villify and crucify). There
                    are so many people who saved by guns every year, but
                    no one keeps track of those. Go ahead, be a victim.
                    \_ I consider myself to be a liberal.  To me that means
                       the government needs to stay the fuck out of both
                       the bedroom and the gun locker.  To agree with one
                       of these and not the other is not a liberal position;
                       I just wanted to point that out.  -!pp
                 \_ Checked out the other crime stats?  So you're less
                    likely to get shot (which was already a small chance)
                    and a lot more likely to get robbed, raped, beat up,
                    mugged, burgled(sp?) and just about every other thing.
                    It would be interesting to see the same stats for the
                    US with gang-on-gang drug related shootings removed.
                    \_ I don't know about other countries, but when I was in
                       Japan, women felt comfortable walking around alone late
                       night in most parts of the country except maybe in the
                       Sinjuku area.  It's also common for druken men to fall
                       asleep on sidewalks, and wake up the next morning with
                       their suitcases intact.  People left their Lexus outside
                       convenient stores with the engine running.  And so on.
                       their briefcases intact.  People left their Lexus
                       outside convenient stores with the engine running.  And
                       so on.
                       \_ Try that in Europe.
                          \_ UK or another Eurpoean country?
                             \_ I was thinking UK in particular since they're
                                so well known for their anti-gun laws and the
                                most similar of all these countries to the US.
                    \_ I don't know about other countries, but women in Japan
                       feel comfortable walking around alone late night in most
                       parts of the country, except maybe in the Sinjuku area.
                          \_ Is it worse in Europe than in the US?
                                \_ Good comparison.  The U.K's violent crime
                                   rate is lower than the U.S.'s.  -tom
                                   \_ That wasn't the question.  What has
                                      happened to the crime rate in the UK over
                                      time as they have enacted laws to
                                      eliminate gun ownership?  The answer, as
                                      you know, is other violent crimes have
                                      gone up.  Let's try apples to apples
                                      discussions instead of trying to "win"
                                      with rhetorical games, eh?
                                      \_ Rhetorical games?  This sub-thread
                                         started with someone claiming that
                                         "other crime stats" showed that you
                                         were "much more likely to get
                                         robbed, raped...."  That's simply
                                         false.  -tom
                                         \_ Show us UK crime stats since WWII
                                            on a per capita basis.  Let's see
                                            if they go up or down.  And no,
                                            this thread started with global
                                            warming and got thread jacked way
                                            at the top by some troll but I was
                                            happy to play along.
                                      \_ I'd rather get beaten up by a guy
                                         armed with a wooden stick than shot
                                         in the head with a bullet.
                                         \_ Except crime stats for places with
                                            concealed carry laws are lower
                                            than places where firearms are
                                            illegal.  So you'd really rather
                                            get beat by a guy with a bat or
                                            possibly still be shot in the head
                                            with gun, since firearms laws
                                            won't keep him from having a gun
                                            anyway, than be left alone by the
                                            same guy because he doesn't know
                                            if you'll shoot him dead if he
                                            attacks you.
                                            \_  If the idea behind carrying a
                                                handgun is to deter violence,
                                                doesn't it make more sense for
                                                the weapon to *not* be
                                                concealed?  It seems to me that
                                                the chances of a handgun
                                                stopping a crime from happening
                                                are *much* higher when the gun
                                                is a ludicrously oversized
                                                hand-cannon strapped to
                                                someone's hip in plain sight,
                                                rather than a more practical
                                                smaller handgun tucked in the
                                                \_ Not really, because when
                                                   concealed, you never know
                                                   what you're facing.  Every
                                                   person you might attack or
                                                   anyone else around *might*
                                                   shoot you for it.  But when
                                                   everyone is required to
                                                   show what they're carrying
                                                   you know in advance what the
                                                   situation is, how many and
                                                   what type of weapons and who
                                                   has them before deciding
                                                   who, if anyone, and when
                                                   you'll attack.  Concealed
                                                   carry doesn't mean everyone
                                                   is carrying.  It means they
                                                   *can* if they want to.  Not
                                                   everyone does.
                                                   \_ Uhhh...I wasn't saying
                                                      anything about not
                                                      allowing concealed carry.
                                                      I'm saying that if you
                                                      were, say, a female at
                                                      night in a dangerous area,
                                                      you're better off with a
                                                      .44 magnum in a hip
                                                      holster than with a
                                                      night in a dangerous
                                                      area, you're better off
                                                      with a .44 magnum in a
                                                      hip holster than with a
                                                      weapon that gets drawn
                                                      *during* a crime that
                                                      you actually end up
                                                   \_ Do you have any idea how
                                                      hard it is to get a
                                                      concealed weapon permit??
                                                      \_ Depends on where you
                                                         are.  There's a bunch
                                                         of really friendly
                                                         towns in Texas.  In CA
                                                         yes it is basically
                                                         impossible.  What does
                                                         that have to do with
                                                         concealed carry making
                                                         for safer streets or
                                                         \_ It shows that your
                                                            whole argument is
                                                            moot since the only
                                                            people who can get
                                                            permits are FBI
                                                            or DEA agents.
                                                            \_ Entirely untrue.
                                                               CA is not the
                                                               entire nation.
                                                               \_ If everyone
                                                                  is packing
                                                                  then you will
                                                                  have the Old
                                                                  West: shoot
                                                                  first and ask
                                                                  later. Likely
                                                                  ambushes, too.
2006/8/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:44087 Activity:nil
        Open letter from terrorist lovers to Israeli defense minister
2006/8/11-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43978 Activity:nil
        Pro-Israel organization wages propaganda war
        \_ The narrator's smug tone makes me want to go blow up Israel myself.
           \_ The narrator probably isn't even Israeli.  Do you have any
              issue with the content, or only his tone?
        \_ gasp. one propaganda war to battle another.  Where will it all end?
           \_ In my pants.  Huh huh.  -beavis
2018/12/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2006/8/11-14 [Reference/Military] UID:43966 Activity:nil
8/11    Just an FYI.  Those explosive gels in the gatorade bottles:  it's not
        enough to take down a plane, but it would injure immediate neighbors.
        Funny how a small-time media outlet gets the facts right, but two
        articles in the big papers don't seem to mention it. -Your Chem 1A TA
        \_ He's "doubtful" it can bring a plane down.
           \_ I doubt it as well.  I came to the same conclusion independently.
              \_ What if the explosive was detonated under a seat that was
                 positioned above the central fuel tank?
        \_ I heard Gatorade cause testicular cancer. -Lance Armstrong
2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/Military] UID:43715 Activity:nil
7/18    6000 Iraqis killed in sectarian fighting in May and June, approximately
        100 a day.  Six thousand deaths in two months, in a country of
        26 million residents, is the equivalent of 9/11 every two and a half
        \_ But we're spreading freedom!
        \_ That will all stop once we turn the corner.  Just wait!
        \_ Maybe they should stop fighting each other then. If you need a
           totalitarian police state to prevent your citizens from butchering
           each other then something is wrong with your culture.
           \_ Sooo I guess that's "oopsiedoodle" on the whole Iraq thing then.
              \_ Saddam used biological weapons on his own people!
                 ... maybe we should use some on them too!
        \_ ob we're fighting them there so we don't fight them here.
           ob if you disagree, you're giving aid and comfort to the enemy
           and not supporting the troops
           ob mushroom cloud over major american city
        \_ so long as the right people are dying what's the problem?
           If it is truely innocent civilians very very sad.
2006/7/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Reference/Military] UID:43596 Activity:nil 80%like:43593
7/8     Afghidan                        -jblack
        \_ Wow, nice photoblog.
        \_ "A young man's strange, erotic journey from Milan to Minsk."
        \_ Good link, thank you.  -John
2006/6/29-7/3 [Health/Men, Reference/Military] UID:43531 Activity:nil
6/29    How Silicon Valley men fight:
        \_ Are you interested in joining? I know one of the guys in that
        \_ Holy stupid. "Hey look I cut my arm I'm cool!" Martial arts classes
           already have sparring. So this is just play fighting on concrete for
           no particular reason and vague rules. They seem to think this has
           something to do with a real world fight without rules. I'd like to
           see them fight this guy:
           Or someone who doesn't abide by these rules:
           \_ Of course it has something to do with it.  Slightly more
              than sparring.  I don't think anyone there thinks this is
              real fight where you get hurt.  That's the whole point.
              \_ Well one of them says something like "we want to see how
                 martial arts work against someone who is fighting back".
                 Obviously if they are not wearing pads and avoiding hurting
                 each other then well, it's probably less than sparring
                 other than that they getting more injuries.
                 other than that they get more injuries.
                 \_ Umm.. most of the sparring I've seen and done you're
                    wearing pads, not hurting each other, stuff ends in
                    points, and you're restricted to one martial art.
                    That sparring is less like a real fight that what they
                    are doing.  What sparring do you do?  You use real
                    knives or something?
                    \_ Protective gear at lets you do more without being
                       as concerned about hurting them. At least they use
                       that headgear but still. Is that enough to protect
                       head vs. concrete?
                       Sparring isn't really better but this doesn't
                       seem to add anything other than pointlessly
                       getting hurt. (why not have a padded floor?)
                       Their knife fight looks like it has little to do with
                       knives beyond their first stabs at each other.
                       Maybe ending in a point is better than just play
                       hitting each other with no result.
                       \_  This is why grappling is so much better than
                           striking arts.  You can go full contact with no pads
                           using judo or jiujitsu tournament rules and no one
                           gets hurt, but in a no-holds-barred fight against
                           karate and boxing fighters you do better because
                           you're used to the real thing.  Don't belive me?
                           Watch the early UFC fights when boxers and karate
                           people would get their asses handed to them in
                           seconds by grapplers many pounds lighter than them.
                           And the last judo tournament I went to had something
                           like 100 people in it, including little kids, with
                           zero injuries.  Grappling: more fun, more effective,
                           more interesting, safer.
        \_ can I do curbing on a nerd?
2006/6/8 [Reference/Military] UID:43319 Activity:nil
6/8     Air Force Hero To Defend Accused Marines
2006/5/30-6/3 [Reference/Military] UID:43228 Activity:nil
5/30    Teacher uses carbine in physics experiments
        \_ I love how the man is condemned because of his insensitivity
           to the horrors of Columbine.  You'd think the safety concerns
           would be a little more topical....   *sheesh*
           \_ Especially since he's been doing this since well before
2006/5/24-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43180 Activity:nil
        "It's going to be extraordinarily difficult for them to find enough
        defense counsel", says Marine Corps attorney, regarding number of
        court martials which may result from investigations into alleged
        Haditha massacre
2006/5/23-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43158 Activity:nil
5/23    Iraq version of My Lai?,8816,1174649,00.html
        Consider that only few got slap on the wrist for My Lai, I sincerely
        doubt anyone would end up getting punished for such behavior.
        \_ Three officers have been relieved of command and given desk jobs.
           Otherwise, the leadership would like this to remain as quiet as
           possible until the investigation is complete, to balance news of
           the alleged atrocity with publicity of jail time or dishonorable
           the alleged atrocity with publicity of court martials or
           dishonorable discharges.
           The spin will be that the people in those houses were aiding and
           harboring insurgents, and there was some gunfire from there.
           That doesn't change the rules of engagement, though, as far as
           shooting people who do not have a weapon, aren't wearing a suicide
           belt, and are running away from you.
           \_ don't you think such behavior can only be stopped by severe
              punishment such as death or extremely long sentense? otherwise,
              switch to a desk job sounds more like a reward than punishment.
              \_ basically, can the military lawyers prove that these guys
                 egregiously violated rules of engagement?  If so, then they'll
                 get jail.  If not, then they might just get discharges.
                 What other way is there to do it?
                 It's not unusual for the guilty to get away scott-free
                 because there was no videotape or Abu Ghraib photo CDs.
2006/5/19-22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43102 Activity:nil
5/18 (
        Marine made famous by photo develops full-blown PTSD after coming home
        \_ That's nice... troll. When's the last time you stood for your
           fellow man without personal gain?
           \_ Kettle, the pot would like to know if that's your natural hair
2006/5/18-22 [Recreation/Activities, Reference/Military] UID:43091 Activity:nil
5/17    sameer joines the marines
2006/5/10 [Reference/Military] UID:43000 Activity:nil
5/10    Russian speakers:  Can someone tell me what "Istrebitelnaja
        Samokhodnaya Ustanovka" literally means?  It's Russian for self-
        propelled gun/artillery or something, but I'd be interested in the
        word-for-word translation.  -John
        \_ demolishing self-propelled systems -shac
        \_ demolishing self-propelled systems. im also told it has a
           shorter nickname of kat'yusha -shac
           \_ Katyushas, or Stalin Organs, were the big trucks with lots
              of artillery rockets on the back.  ISUs were self-propelled
              guns (dunno if they also called rocket launchers by that
              designation.)  Thanks!  -John
2006/5/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:42903 Activity:nil
5/2     The Republicans have a secret weapon to win the 08 Election--
        the capture of OSL. This is my 06 prediction.   -Lefty Swami
        \_ Who the fuck is OSL?  Do you mean OBL or UBL?
           \_ Artifact of translating Arabic names into English.
              Unless you are talking about the ODB.
        \_ They don't need a secret weapon.  Their not-so-secret-weapon
           is "Iran will nuke you unless you vote Republican" - danh
        \_ Why didn't they bring him out in '04, then?
          \_ they didn't need it then.
             \_ So, you think they've had OSL in custody this whole time,
                and are just keeping it a secret?  Whatever, conspiracy
                boy.  Are they also going to destroy education this year?
        \_ I really thought they might pull this in '04, but I'm increasingly
           convinced that these people couldn't run a conspiracy in a
2006/4/23-24 [Reference/Military, Health/Eyes] UID:42807 Activity:nil
4/22    Man shoots himself 12 times in the head with a nail-gun and
        \_ I bet an American-made nail gun would have worked right the first
2006/4/6-7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:42711 Activity:low
4/6     Lookout! The elite Venezuelan housewife army is ready to repel any
        US invasion.
        \_ If they're anything like the S. American women I've been running
           into, they'll sit around overweight in ugly dresses and sneer
           a lot.  Real deadly.  -John
           \_ Sucks to be you. Where are all the Miss Universe contestants?
              I have a Colombian friend and she is gorgeous. Thin. Tall. Fair
              complexion. Big eyes. Amazing cheekbones. Overall, I think
              South American women are some of the most beautiful in the
              world, especially if they have a lot of Spanish blood.
        \_ I thought it was about a new porn site ......
        \_ Is it lead by Alicia Machado?  I sure would want to invade to face
           her on muddy battleground.
2006/4/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:42617 Activity:kinda low
4/2     I guess Russians are exporting those babys everywhere:
                                             \_ sic
        \_ I suspect American has something similar and it's been super
           secret about it.  Further, I don't think it's necessary to
           use such weapon on an oil tanker...
           \_ The target of such a weapon would be a US aircraft carrier,
              battleship, cruiser, or other high value, high PR target.
              The US doesn't need their own version.  What little fleet the
              Iranians have is no real threat without this.  The US needs a
              defense against such a weapon.  Imagine both the military and
              PR value of sinking a carrier or battleship?  The British lost
              a destroyer to the Argentines and it was a huge deal.
              \_ There's no mention of this being a hardened weapon. Unless
                 they have ECCM better than our ECM, these are virtually a non-
                 \_ original Russian version has no guidance whatsoever.  I
                    don't know what version does Iranian have.   --OP
                 \_ We have no idea if it is or isn't.  It could be completely
                    mechanical in which case ECM is useless.  If you were
                    designing a torpedo to kill large well defended American
                    Navy vessels would you leave it open to easy ECM death?
                    \_ Of course not, but I'm not the people who built this
                       torpedo. It sounds like they were told to emphasize the
                       speed, which leads me to think that they may have
                       neglected other parts.
                       \_ Exactly. Speed without accuracy using high tech
                          guidance system means nothing. The early Migs
                          flew higher and faster than the Phantom F4s but
                          the F4s had much better guidance system. For
                          every 10 Migs down there were only 1 F4 down.
                          \_ They may have emphasized speed because that was
                             the only special thing about it.  Nothing says
                             it can't still be accurate.  In WW2 purely
                             mechanical, unguided torps hit often enough to
                             be useful.  It may be shielded.  It may be wire
                             guided.  Since everything we do know comes from
                             Iranian PR, we really don't know anything except
                             what they claim.  Fighting against the US with
                             high tech is usually a bad idea for most countries
                             since they really can't out tech the US
                             sufficiently in enough fields to matter so the
                             smart thing would be to go the low-tech high-
                             powered high-reliability route.  Speculating is
                             still fun though.  As far as the mig vs phantom
                             thing goes, the American pilots were *very*
                             experienced and in Vietnam the numbers only
                             turned haevily in favor of the US after we
                             upgraded the fighter fleet and started putting
                             cannons and other close combat weapons on them
                             in addition to the flakey missile systems.
                 \_ There exist missiles that home in on the wake from
                    a ship.
        \_ This guy thinks they are dangerous:
           \_ Ummm.. I don't know about the torpedo, but that dude is
              obviously a fruitcake.
              \_ Will he fit in a torpedo tube?
2006/4/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:42604 Activity:nil
4/1     Why does Esquire claim navy is the most versatile suit color?
        It seems to me that charcoal would be...
        \_ Greys and blacks can appear too somber for many events.  A dark
           navy suit is appropriate at somber events like funerals as well as
           more typical, festive events. -dans
2006/3/25-27 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:42431 Activity:nil
3/25    Lego Aircraft Carrier:
2006/3/10-13 [Academia/Berkeley, Reference/Military] UID:42177 Activity:moderate
3/10    It had to happen eventually - danh
        \_ It happened because Timothy was reckless. Living with bears gave
           him as much rush as having unprotected sex with random hookers.
           He played roulette. He won most of the time. But chance caught up.
        \_ It's possible this is a the real audio, but the text doesn't fit
           the facts terribly well.
           \_ How so? It seems to fit from what I know.
              \_ They found more than just "2 skulls" and I'm pretty sure the
                 bear(s) wouldn't be "eating him alive"
                  \_ What are you talking about? That's not on that link...
           \_ [whoops, nevermind]
           \_ (
              It's probably the real audio, or two minutes out of six.
              The text may not be accurate (more mauling than eating).
              Basically the "Play dead" trick doesn't work if the salmon run
              just ended, you've camped out on top of the bear trail to the
              salmon run (so you can meet more bears), it's an old bear who
              can't compete with the younger ones and is really hungry, it
              weighs 1000 pounds, it's just before hibernation time, it
              surprised you by putting your head in its mouth while you were
              up close trying to make nice with it, and the best armament
              your buddy has is a frying pan.
              \_ I wish they hadn't shot the bear, or the younger one that
                 was in the area. The bear was just being a bear. No reason
                 to shoot it. They could have tranq'd it or scared it.
                 \_ No, once a bear has identified humans as prey, it
                    will tend to attack again.  That's why nimrods like
                    this guy are really hurting the animals.  -tom
                    this guy are really hurting the animals.  -tom, bear expert
           Bear (pepper) spray, with video re-enactment and Bear Safety Tips!
        \_ Sounds fake to me.
2006/3/7-9 [Reference/Military] UID:42122 Activity:kinda low
3/7     Saw Lord of War last night and thought that while the subject matter
        is disturbing (and the movie was a bit preachy about it), the acting,
        the writing, and the direction really carried it off. And yes, I was
        the guy who disliked Weather Man. --erikred
        \_ it's disturbing because it has a bit of truth in it?
           \_ Truth? What truth? The movie had more errors and generalizations
              than a Michael Moore film. Legal arms shipments by the perm.
              members of the security does not equal what the five composited
              gun runners Yuri was based did.
              \_ shrug.  i'm getting here:
                 "While private gunrunners continue to thrive, the world's
                 biggest arms suppliers are the U.S., UK, Russia, France and
                 China."  I assume that means dollar amounts, not number of
                 firearms.  I assume things like F-16's, Mirages, missiles,
                 tanks, destroyers, air defense systems, etc. tip the scale
                 in favor of the countries over the independents.
                 In terms of number of firearms, shrug, I bet the "used" AK-47,
                 RPG, etc. market is a bigger or comparable share to
                 brand-spanking new + refurb rifles sold by the 5 govts.
                 Generalizations, yes.  Errors, please point out a serious one:
                 I want to learn.
        \_ it was gr8, just like I wrote on motd -someone else
        \_ I was disappointed.  I expected a darkly humorous, edgier, more
           Nicholas Cage film.  In the end it almost played more like a
           documentary to me.  --dbushong
           \_ Gold plated guns!  What more do you want?
        \_ I enjoyed the film, but I couldn't take it seriously. Also, I felt
           like Cage wasn't convincing... I always see him acting roughly the
           same, and he's too recognizable. I would have preferred an unknown
2006/2/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:41844 Activity:high
2/14    Poll:  Do you wish that Harry Whittington would die so that Dick Cheney
        can get arrested and charged for involuntary manslaughter?
        Yes: .
        You're insane: ..
        No, and it's time for a change in your meds: ..
        You're way fucking stupidly ridiculously madly beyond belief insane: ..
        \_ No, because Whittington will suddently became a "terrorist suspect"
           and die of "natural causes" in one of those secret detention center
           somewhere in Egypt.  Cheney will get out of jail.. free.
        \_ What if he did die in the next few days?
        \_ So what's gonna happen to Dick Cheney? Basically nothing right?
           It's nice to be the vice president.
           \_ It's good to be the king.
           \_ What would happen if you accidentally shot an old friend while
              hunting? If the victim or family refuses to press charges,
              the worst that would happen is you'd lose your hunting license.
              \_ Involuntary manslaughter, maybe reckless endagerment type
                 charges if you were a dumbass.
                 \_ Only if he dies. And reckless endangerment requires
                    witnesses and cooperation from the victim.
                 \_ Probably not if the victim contributed to his own death
                    by failing to use normal rules of hunting.
                    \_ Ah, the Swift Boating begins...
                          \_ Huh? All I'm saying is that if the victim didn't
                             use ordinary care and follow the common rules of
                             safety in hunting then the VP is not at fault.
                             If however, as the post below suggests, the victim
                             was using ordinary care, then the VP is at fault
                             and should be punished accordingly.
                             Personally I think hunting is leem and that one
                             assumes the risk that people will die whenever
                             one walks around w/ a loaded gun. But it is
                             entirely possible that I don't understand the
                             importance of hunting b/c of thousands of years
                             of cultural bias towards strict vegetarianism.
                             importance of hunting due to a strong historical
                             bias towards non-violence and vegetarianism.
                             \_ If someone is hit by a hunter, it is ALWAYS
                                the hunter's fault.
                                You are responsible for where and what you
                                shoot.  Period.
                                \_ "Ultimately, I'm the guy who pulled the
                                   trigger that fired the round that hit Harry,"\
                                   "You can talk about all the other conditions
                                   trigger that fired the round that hit Harry,"
                                   "You can talk about all the other conditions
                                   that existed at the time, but that's the
                                   bottom line"  "It was not Harry's fault,"
                                   "You can't blame anybody else. I'm the guy
                                   who pulled the trigger and shot my friend.
                                   It's a day I'll never forget."
                                   -Dick Cheney, at a press conference today
                                   Now close your eyes and try to imagine
                                   George Bush ever taking responsibility for
                                   his actions like this.
                                \_ I disagree. If you are hunting and some
                                   guy jumps into the line of fire, that is
                                   not your fault. The only thing you could
                                   to was to NOT hunt. Even I think that
                                   asking people to give up hunting is too
                                   Also think of the self defense case, if
                                   the person is being attacked by a large
                                   bear or bison or some such and fires his
                                   gun at the animal but hits someone else
                                   b/c he was flustered, it is not reasonable
                                   to think that a person should not have
                                   taken means to protect themselves on the
                                   chance that someone might be hurt.
                       \_ The rules exist for a reason.  If you don't follow
                          them and get shot... shrug.
                          \_ gee, I could have sworn that one of the rules
                             is "don't shoot people."  -tom
                             \_ I don't know anything about quail hunting, and
                                I'm not ready to take a side here, but what
                                if they had been target shooting, and the
                                shooting victim had been hanging out behind the
                                target area?  Wouldn't it be his fault then?
                                I think the claim the defenders are making
                                is that this is roughly equivalent.  Personally,
                                it seems to me that their "safety rules" are
                                bunk and that quail hunting with shotguns
                                is simply a retarded activity.
                                shooting victim had been hanging out behind
                                the target area?  Wouldn't it be his fault
                                then? I think the claim the defenders are
                                making is that this is roughly equivalent.
                                Personally, it seems to me that their
                                "safety rules" are bunk and that quail
                                hunting with shotguns is simply a retarded
                                \_ From CNN: Whittington shot a bird and went
                                   to retrieve it in the tall grass, while
                                   Cheney and the third hunter walked to
                                   another spot and discovered a second covey.
                                   Whittington "came up from behind the vice
                                   president and the other hunter and didn't
                                   signal them or indicate to them or announce
                                   himself," Armstrong said. "The vice
                                   president didn't see him," she continued.
                                   "The covey flushed and the vice president
                                   picked out a bird and was following it and
                                   shot. And by God, Harry was in the line of
                                   fire and got peppered pretty good."
                                   --So it sounds like the VP turned around to
                                   shoot the bird. That suggests that the
                                   victim wasn't putting himself in the way of
                                   \_ I think this supports my claim that
                                      quail hunting with shotguns in this
                                      manner is just retarded.  The idea that
                                      you're going out with a group of people
                                      and shooting an animal that's going to
                                      move a significant distance between the
                                      time that you sight it in and the time
                                      you pull the trigger, using a weapon
                                      that sprays shot around seems destined
                                      for accidents.  This is supported by
                                      the various other quail hunters who've
                                      said that they've also gotten "peppered".
                                      What the fuck?  How many responsible deer
                                      hunters do you think would talk casually
                                      about getting "winged" by a riffle bullet
                                      from one of their hunting buddies?  None.
                                      It seems to me that the VP is really just
                                      guilty of participating in an assanine,
                                      intrinsically dangerous sport.
                                      \_ If you don't shoot quail with a
                                         shotgun then what would you do
                                         \_ What a strange question.  Read
                                            a book?  Go for a bike ride?
                                            Go shooting at a gun range?
                                            Shooting quail is pretty near the
                                            bottom of my list of things I'd
                                            like to try.  Particularly since
                                            I hate the taste of bird meat.
                                            \_ Not strange.  I think you
                                               misunderstood the question.
                                               I suspect PP was asking "if you
                                               don't use a shotgun, then what
                                               *would* you use?".
                                   \_ You miss the part about wandering around
                                      in an area where his buddies are known
                                      to be shooting and not announcing
                                      himself?  Weird how you can quote that
                                      whole thing, cherry pick a line and then
                                      flip the entire thing around to mean
                                      something entirely different from what
                                      you quoted.  Do you wish he'd killed the
                                      guy so Cheney could be up on charges?
                                      \_ First: if the guy came up behind the
                                         VP, that means the VP had to turn
                                         180 to face and shoot him; also, it
                                         is customary NOT to make noise when
                                         approaching fellow hunters from behind
                                         because you might spook the birds.
                                         Second: your line about wondering
                                         if I wanted Whittington to die reveals
                                         that you're really not interested in
                                         a serious, non-political discussion.
                                         \_ I'm not a quaill hunter and suspect
                                            you're not either, but from your
                                            quote, it appears that making
                                            noise in order to not get shot is
                                            considered more important than your
                                            buddies missing a kill.  Since this
                                            thread was started a poll asking
                                            if we wanted the guy to die so
                                            Cheney could face charges, it was
                                            completely in context and
                                            appropriate for me to ask if you
                                            wanted him to die.
                                            \_ I apologize for misunderstanding
                                               I thought we'd moved passed that
                                               silliness and were now on to
                                               whether the VP or Whit were to
                                               blame. From the way the story
                                               has been reported, Whit acted
                                               within reason for the activity.
                                               The VP did not. The ultimate
                                               responsibility for ANY hunting
                                               accident rests with the person
                                               who was holding the gun.
                                               \_ np.  Yes, pulling the trigger
                                                  is serious business but so is
                                                  going anywhere you know
                                                  triggers are being pulled.  I
                                                  wouldn't walk out in a live
                                                  fire army shooting range and
                                                  expect to live or blame the
                                                  poor private who killed me.
                                                  \_ Which is why, if Whit
                                                     doesn't die, there will
                                                     likely be no charges filed
                                                     against the VP. If he
                                                     dies, however, this
                                                     could become negligent
                                                     homocide or even involun-
                                                     tary manslaughter.
                                            \_ This is complete crap. The VP
                                               fucked up. The number two rule
                                               of firing a gun is to know
                                               what you are shooting at and
                                               what is behind it. This is a
                                               clear cut case of bad judgement.
                                               The fact that he had to turn
                                               to shoot and did not know the
                                               location of all members of the
                                               hunting party is HIS fault.
                                               This is especially important
                                               when hunting game and birds like
                                               quail which are low flyers.
                                               blame. From the way the story
                                               has been reported, Whit acted
                                               within reason for the activity.
                                               The VP did not. The ultimate
                                               responsibility for ANY hunting
                                               accident rests with the person
                                               who was holding the gun.
                                               \_ Put your shit in the right
                                                  place.  You interrupted my
                                                  response to the more
                                                  reasonable person above.
                                                  So tell us how many times
                                                  you've been quail hunting?
                                                  \_ That might be a question
                                                     worth asking as a new
                                                     thread. Has anyone here
                                                     ever hunted quail?  I know
                                                     a lot of hunters, but I
                                                     don't think I even know
                                                     anyone who's hunted quail.
                                                     Maybe it's just a southern
                                                  \_ Fixed.
        \_ Why all the fuss? If Whittington was really pissed off, he would
           have shot back. That's why everyone has guns.
           \_ GUN DUEL!
           Cheney could face charges.
2006/2/14-15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41835 Activity:moderate
2/14    Laser guns to be deployed in Iraq:
        \_ "But 10 months later . and after a prototype destroyed about 90% of
           the IEDs laid in its path during a battery of tests . not a single
           JIN has been shipped to Iraq," the Times notes.
           So, uh, I assume it doesn't magically find IEDs on its own (which
           seems like the actual problem).  Couldn't an M-16 barrage destroy
           90% of known IEDs in one's path?
           \_ We don't like to litter M-16 shells
           \_ It would drive in front of convoys and detonate any IEDs
              in the way, rather like a minesweeper of sorts. It "finds"
              them by blowing them up if they exist.
              \_ ?  How does that work?  Is it just shooting lightning all
                 over the place?
                 \_ "JIN would sweep dangerous areas clear of bombs before
                    U.S. troops entered."
                 \_ Reading more about it (in other articles) I think my
                    characterization is wrong. I wonder if they have
                    multiple products?
              \_ Kind of. The idea is to saturate a volume of space with
                 very short bursts of lightning. That should be sufficient to
                 detonate or render useless any IEDs in the area.
              \_ Watch this video:
                 Essentially, it has an extended arm that sweeps over an area.
                 The arm is shooting, straight down, the aforementioned
                 femto-second laser pulses. The end result is an explosion or
                 a shorting out of the IED. Yes, this could damage the unit.
                 a shorting out of the IED. Yes, this could damage the g-unit.
                 \_ In WW2, they had tanks with large horizontal rollers/bars
                    that had numerous heavy chains attached that spun around
                    the roller setting off mines.  How is this any different
                    except that it requires hi-tek, a lot of cleaning and will
                    break more easily?
                    \_ Some IEDs are cell-phone operated. Beating the ground
                       with chains might set off mines, but it wouldn't
                       necessarily set off an IED or disable it.
2006/2/13-15 [Science/Electric, Reference/Military] UID:41814 Activity:nil
2/13    How long until they build them 80 feet tall, with laser guns and
        a hot green-haired chick pilot with huge eyes?  -John
        \_ Same company's working on that, too:
           \_ Can't wait for their partnership with <DEAD>!<DEAD>
           \_ Well, that wins the creepy award.
2006/2/7-9 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41746 Activity:nil 90%like:41744
2/7 (
        Them libruls just hates the troops... mmmhmm....
2006/2/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41745 Activity:nil
        "She extended Martin's message against poverty, racism and war. She
        deplored the terror inflicted by our smart bombs on missions way afar.
        We know now that there were no weapons of mass destruction over there,"
        Lowery said.
        The mostly black crowd applauded, then rose to its feet and cheered in
        a two-minute-long standing ovation.
        A closed-circuit television in the mega-church outside Atlanta showed
        the president smiling uncomfortably. ...
        \_ fyi, for posterity, according to the CNN video, the applause lasted
           for ~ 15 seconds, and the reverend didn't appear to expect it.
           also, it appears the applause was much greater for Bill Clinton. -op
           \_ This is precisely why Drudge is useless.  Did he "nod his head
              toward the row of presidents..." on the "misdirection" line in
              your viewing?
2006/2/7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41744 Activity:nil 90%like:41746
        Them libruls just hates the troops... mmmhmm....
2006/2/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:41681 Activity:nil
        $1.3 BILLION dollars to buy FIVE Joint Strike Fighters.
        You've got to be shitting me right?
        \_ The Generals are always fighting the last war.
        \_ That's not that much for a new plane. It's probably 3000
           engineers working for 5 years or more to design and build that.
           If you want to be shocked look at the submarine - $2.5 billion and
           its not a new design, AFAIK. BTW, I just checked and the JSFs
           will cost about $50 million each when built in quantity.
           \_ Plus the fact that they will be sold to "allies" once
              production gets up to full speed.
        \_ Cheap.  If they're even half as good as the hype they're worth
           it.  The best war is the one you don't have to fight because the
           other guy doesn't bother showing up.  A sub for $2.5B isn't so
           bad either.  That's what?  2 days in Iraq?  What's a carrier cost
           these days?  Add that to the cost of the air craft on board, the
           support fleet of subs, DDs, CAs, etc, and see how much a fleet
           costs.  Policing the world isn't cheap.  Buying top notch planes
           is dirt cheap for what they do.
           is dirt cheap for what they do.
2006/1/31-2/1 [Reference/Military] UID:41611 Activity:kinda low
1/31    Never bring a rifle to a tank fight  -John
        \_ in bed.
        \_ Also, never try setting up a tank battle at home:
        \_ RIDE BIKE!
        \_ Unless you happen to have a M67 Recoilless Rifle.
           \_ Eh, not really.  You probably mean something more like an
              FGM-148...though that's not really a reckless, and would ruin
              the 'joke'.  The '67 is *really* outdated and mostly useless
              against modern armor.
              \_ I agree that these days you would use a Javelin, but
                 that damn thing is a missle launcher. The M67 is the
                 last infantry weapon classified as  "recoilless rifle"
                 so its the only one that would work as part of the joke.
              \_ I agree that these days you would use a Javelin against
                 a tank, but that isn't a recoilless rifle. The M67 was
                 the last weapon I knew about that was called a recoilless
                 rifle, so I used that to make the joke work.
2006/1/25-26 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41512 Activity:nil
        Something the Iranian president would be happy to hear.
        \_ didn't our Great Leader say something about not giving comfort
           to the enemy?  Go Dubya!
2006/1/4-6 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:41216 Activity:low
        German passengers filed "false imprisonment" after plane delay.
        \_ 7+ hours stuck in a cramped airplane.  I'd call that bullshit.
           At least let the passengers back into the airport lounge.
           \_ I'm convinced that this is the *only* reason they have that
              "no cell phone use" rule on planes.  It keeps people from calling
              lawyers and cops in these situations.
           \_ Yeah, except that the FAA counts an "on time" departure if the
              plane is away from the terminal even if you sit on the tarmac for
              hours.  Which is probably why the pilot didn't want to return to
              the terminal.
                \_ or more specifically, when the aircraft door closes - this
                   timestamps the departure. When aircraft door reopens at
                   destination, this is the official arrival time. Going back
                   to the subject, why can't they just cancel the damn flight?
              \_ My wife and I got stuck on a plane in London for 6 hours
                 after they found the wingflaps faulty. They said they
                 couldn't allow the passengers back in the terminal because
                 we had cleared customs. On the plus side, they said we
                 were clear to enjoy any duty free goods because we had
                 technically "left the country" (the plane actually took
                 off, flew for 30 minutes, and then returned to London
                 when the faulty equipment was discovered.)
                 when the faulty equipment was discovered.) -bz
        \_ We were stuck in a plane on the runway for 6 hours (once we got off
           the ground it was a 6 hour flight)  I'm never flying through Newark
           again.  --dbushong
        \_ There was a case sometime in the last 5 years of a plane being
           stuck on the runway for more than 10 hours, maybe as much as
           20 (I forget the exact incident.)  -John
2005/12/14-15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:41009 Activity:moderate
12/13   Haha.  McCain no-torture amendment says "Follow the Army Field Manual."
        Pentagon changes field manual.  Go Dubya!
        \_ So do we have to have a three screen long flame war about the
           definition of the word "lie" to say Rice was lying now?  Or can
           we just agree that she was lying right through her teeth by
           any definition?
           \_ ObThatDependsOnWhatTheDefinitionOfIsIs.
           \_ It's a lie whatever we say is a lie.
        \_ url?
2005/12/7 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:40893 Activity:nil
12/7    Rat brain cells learn to fly a F-22:
2005/12/6-7 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:40880 Activity:moderate
12/6    Pesky journalists!
        "A plane loaded with Iranian journalists ... At least 128 people were
        killed -- 34 on the ground ... the plane appeared to be circling the
        airport when its tail suddenly burst into flames, leaving a smoke trail
        as it plummeted ... The C-130 is built by Lockheed ..."
        \_ Hmm,  that seems odd.  It was having engine trouble, then the
           tail burst into flames?  The C-130 doesn't have any engines in
           the tail.
           \_ Any gas tanks near the tail?
              \_ Suicide bombers always travel in economy.  -John
                 \_ That's because they get free upgrades.  "Madam, either you
                    give me that empty seat in the First Class or I'll press
                    the trigger."
                 \_ And demand free upgrades mid-flight.  "Madam, either you
                    give me that empty seat in the First Class now, or I'll
                    press the trigger."
                    \_ You mean "I demand a seat in heaven!"  <boom>
           \_ gas tanks are usually in the wings.  Tails usually have the
              power generation unit, which looks a lot like an engine.
           \_ No idea.  I only know of the ones in the wings, here's some
              info though.
        \_ Another 9/11.
        \_ I think it's CIA's work.  I mean, we are quite experienced at
           taking down Iranian planes, no?
           \_ The Iranians are quite good at crashing planes all on their own.
           \_ I'll tell you why we know the CIA wasn't behind the crash: the
              planes crashed, didn't they?
2005/12/5-6 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40849 Activity:nil
12/5    Excellent segment from CSPAN.
        Disinformation: 22 Media Myths that Undermine the War
        on Terror
        You can listen here:
        \_ This isn't "from CSPAN", it's from a Heritage Foundation
           neocon, author of "Losing bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's
           Failures Unleashed Global Terror".  Other upcoming events:
           "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred
            Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought."  Get a clue.  -tom
2005/11/30-12/3 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:40787 Activity:kinda low
11/30   TSA to announce Friday that some scissors less than 4 inches long will
        now be permitted in carry-on baggage, since 25% of bags with an illegal
        item have ... small scissors!  Flight attendants still prefer they get
        screened, but who cares about them.
        \- that kinda funny ... my father just got busted for this on tue.
        \_ TSA has always allowed EMT shears (blunt scissors)
           \_ As long as they aren't useful to someone with their jaw wired
              shut.  YMWTGF 'TSA "wired jaw"'
        \_ I took a can of almonds with me on my flight which had a very
           sharp aluminum lid on them. I even cut myself opening them. I
           think the whole security thing is stupid beyond belief.
           \_ Speaking of which.. what happened to all those kids in green
              uniforms with F-16 rifles? Were the poor sobs all sent to
              \_ F-16 rifles?  Those sound pretty unwieldy.
                 \_ They come with shoulder straps, but they sometimes get
                    tangled in the landing gear.
                    \- those don't exist!  unlike the GU-11 veritech gun pod,
                       although it's best in battloid or guardian modes
                       \_ That's battloid and _gerwalk_ to all you souls
                          uncorrupted by Robotech.
                 \_ Definitely the most maneuverable rifle on the market.
              \_ You mean M-16?
        \_ I'll care when I don't have to take my shoes off when going through
           \_ From now on your nickname is plutonium shoes.
           \_ 5/7 times I flew (SJC<->LAX) I didn't have to take off my shoes.
              And I'm middle-eastern. I've also stopped getting "randomly"
              screened every single time I fly. --swarthy male
              \_ I used to get searched *every time* I flew.  I think it was
                 beacause I tended to buy my tickets at the last minute and
                 because I tended to buy my tickets at the last minute and
                 online.  I look about as white as you possibly can, so I
                 don't think it's just racial profiling.
              \_ Swarthy male... do you feel you are being targeted for
                 randomn searches?
                 \_ Can't speak for swarthy male, but my hot blonde friend
                    claims she is being targeted.
                    claims she is being targeted, especially when she  is
                    travelling abroad.
                    \_ They're just trying to find excuses to conduct body
                       search on her.
        \_ how did the hijackers during 9/11 get control of the planes?
           was it just through the use of box cutters?  didnt read the
           report or anything.
2005/11/24-28 [Reference/Military] UID:40726 Activity:nil
11/23   "Lockpicking" with guns:
        \- i shot the lock, and the lock won
        \_ I wonder if you get the same effect with 12 gague #2 or smaller.
           The trouble is if you're busting locks in a closed space you could
           easily get some back at you.
        \_ Shoot it and then hammer it with the body of the handgun.
2005/11/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:40656 Activity:nil
11/19   \_ Iraq Gun Porn: Which Guns Suck, Which Guns Rock
           Which commonly used weapons in Iraq do our brave soldiers give
           the thumbs up to and which do they thumb their nose at? Here is
           a review.
        \_ Yeah, this was posted a few days ago.
           \_ What is the point of saying this?
        \_ Cool.  But why is this called Porn?
2005/11/15-17 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40598 Activity:nil
11/15   Amusing reviews of the weapons used in Iraq.  (Later it turns into
        go-america type stuff.  You can skip that if you like)
        \_ Interesting stuff, mostly new information for me.
           But scroll to near the bottom for a post that challenges it.
2005/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:40490 Activity:moderate
11/8    Cruise Ship Escapes Pirate Hijack Attempt
        Ship's Passengers Recall Pirate Attack
        What kind of cruise ship is it that can outrun speedboat?  Or, what
        kind of lame speedboat is it that can't even catch up with a cruise
        ship!!??  And what kind of lame pirates would use such a speedboat?
        \_ "two 25-foot inflatable boats"  I suspect that heavily loaded
           inflatable boats are not that fast.  Probably better
           acceleration, but lower top speed.
           \_ Still, they can't outrun a 440-foot-long, 10,000-ton cruise ship?
              That's still lame.
              \_ They probably didn't outrun, per se. With no way to board or
                 stop the ship, when the cruise ship set out to open sea, the
                 pirates probably just gave up.
                 \_ Modern luxury liners can hit almost 30 knots.  Some lame
                    Somali rustbucket may not make that much.  -John
                    \_ The rigid inflatable boats the US Navy uses have
                       a top speed of 45 knots, but a cruise speed of
                       only 30 knots - and that's a boat the US military
                       uses. I'm gonna guess the speedboats were faster,
                       but not much faster and have a shorter range.
                       \_ Once again, khat-addled Somali thugs.  Have a look
                          at -- "speedboat" is an
                          optimistic description.  -John
                          \_ They went 100 miles offshore in that?
                             \_ Look up Thor Heyerdahl.  Where there's a will
                                there's a way.  Some of the slow freighters,
                                private yachts or tankers modern pirates
                                take are well worth it.  Anda cruise ship
                                will not deviate course because some random
                                blip is near it--it will probably just try
                                to avoid ramming.  -John
                       \_ The more I think about it, the more surprised I
                          am that the thugs got that close. A radar blip
                          from something on an intercept course within 10
                          miles of me? If I can't talk to it, I run from it.
                          A possible terrorist strike would be my primary
                          worry, especially 100 miles out on a ship full of
                          American/European tourists.
        \_ Even more lame is that, why did the pirates fire their guns when
           they approach the cruise ship if their speedboats aren't that fast?
           They should have quietly approached and climbed up the ship before
           waking up everybody with gunfire.
           \_ The problem is that there is no easy way to "climb" up the ship.
              The ships are built for easy access to docks not to those at
              sea level. The shooting was probably out of frustration.
              \_ The article says they were trying to disable the ship
                 with their shooting.
                 \_ It's like shooting BBs at a elephant. You need to know
                    where to hit and then get lucky hitting it.
                    \_ Eh, not so much with RPG's.
              \_ I thought climbing up ships from sea level are pirates'
                 specialty.  Isn't it their main way of hijacking ships?
                 \_ Most piracy deals with much smaller, slower ships. Small
                    frieghters, fishing boats, that sort of thing. Built much
                    lower and substatially easier to access.
           \_ These guys are primitive thugs.  Like op, they probably thought
              "speed boat _must_ be faster than cruise ship."  -John
        \_ Per /., it looks like the cruise ship used a sonic weapon to
           deter their pursuers:
           very cool.
2005/11/5-6 [Reference/Military] UID:40460 Activity:nil
11/5    WMD:  US Navy style:
2005/11/4-8 [Consumer/PDA, Reference/Military] UID:40436 Activity:nil
11/4    Handheld laser gun:
2005/11/3-8 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40429 Activity:moderate
11/3    In the good old days, we count 'casuaties,' not 'death' in a conflict.
        I am just wondering do we even keep track of 'casuaties' in Golf War 2?
        Where can we get them?
        \_  -- ~15k casualties
        \_ Disappointed that the American death toll is too low?
           \_ Just want to make sure I am comparing apple to apple when I
              am making comprison... I am just wondering what is the
              'casualty rate' of our little Iraqi Advanture here.  My guess
              is that the 'casualty rate' is bit more than 1/20, which is
              pretty high.
              \_ About 14000 casualties. I don't know how you calculate
                 the rate.
                 \_ 14k out of 250k forces in Iraq?
                    \_ But how many have cycled through?
              \_ What were the casualties rates in other wars like WWII or
                 Vietnam War?
        \_ The problem with casualties is that they run the gamut from
           a bump on the head received during combat to blinding and
           maiming.  The number of amputees, as compared to the number
           of deaths, is far higher for this war than for any other.
           \_ Bump on the head?  I thought casualty only counts wounds serious
              enough to take a person out of action.
           \_ I am pretty sure "casualty" is a guy (or gal) that you have
              to evacuate. A RTD (return to duty) kind of scratch or bump
              does not count. -ausman (former Army medic)
              does not count. -ausman (former Army colonel)
              \_ this is what concerns me.  I have been told repeately that
                 many of these 'wounded' would of died even 10 years ago.
                 this translates that these guys are not dead, which is good
                 politically.  But what kind of disabilities would they
                 suffer as result? That is the big cost of our little
                 Iraq war that most people don't think about.
2005/11/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:40380 Activity:low
11/1    How would one go about buying a fully-auto AK-47 in the U.S. and finding
        a range where you can get away with firing it?
        \_ You'll need be in a state that allows personal ownership of a
           machine gun or have a FFL 3 license. Finding the range is secondary.
           \_ Thanks!  I actually had assumed these weapons were flat-out
              illegal, but in my state this does not look so hard.
        \_ If I was going through the trouble of getting an FFL 3 license
           I would rather get an M16.  Much more accurate =)
        \_ My coworkers own several.  I live in Nevada.
2005/10/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:40097 Activity:moderate
10/14   Fist, your newest weapon of terror:
        \_ Hulk Smash!
           \- some how the subhead of the article,
              'Perhaps it was some sort of psychotic episode'
              reminds me of csua current events.
2005/10/11-13 [Reference/Military] UID:40043 Activity:nil
        Taser/stun guns illegal in NYC? So much for the duel.
2005/10/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:39943 Activity:nil
10/1    Can someone explain what exactly the term "thirty ought six" means?
        Google does not help me since I don't know how to write that
        \_ I've found forcing wikipedia on google helps a lot.
           \_ Thanks!
        \_ Next time just call a gun store and admit you are interested in
           this non-PC (at least in CA) sport. BTW This will go thru
           most police body armor like hot knife thru butter.
           \_ just about any ammo from a rifle will go through
              any sort of body armor.
2005/9/21-23 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:39801 Activity:nil
9/21    Gentle humming gives aircrafts a better lift:,3604,1574553,00.html
        \_ So I should hum the Koran loudly to make the plane fly better
        \_ "Hello honey. ...... Hey, what's that moaning in the background?"
           "Oh, the stewardess and I are just trying to help the plane fly."
           "Oh, the stewardess and I are humming to help the plane fly."
2005/9/20-22 [Reference/Military] UID:39776 Activity:nil
9/20    Gun people: this is a pretty interesting site to browse:
2005/9/15 [Reference/Military] UID:39695 Activity:nil
9/15    Come on all of you big strong men
        Uncle Sam needs your help again
        he's got himself in a terrible jam
        way down yonder in Viet Nam so
        put down your books and pick up a gun we're
        gonna have a whole lotta fun

      And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
      don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam
      And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
      ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die

        Come on generals, let's move fast
        your big chance has come at last
        now you can go out and get those reds
        cos the only good commie is the one that's dead and
        you know that peace can only be won when we've
        blown 'em all to kingdom come

        Come on wall street don't be slow
        why man this war is a go-go
        there's plenty good money to be made by
        supplying the army with the tools of its trade
        let's hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
        they drop it on the Viet Cong

        Come on mothers throughout the land
        pack your boys off to Viet Nam
        come on fathers don't hesitate
        send your sons off before it's too late
        and you can be the first ones on your block
        to have your boy come home in a box
2005/9/9-11 [Reference/Military] UID:39604 Activity:nil
9/9     Remember that cop you said would take a bullet for me? More
        likely he would put a bullet in my back:
        \_ This is my favorite part:  "Police officers in Gretna also went
           into the city's lone sporting goods store and pawn shop and removed
           more than 1,400 weapons from the shelves to ensure the public
           \_ If I were a (non-crooked) cop, I'd do the same
              \_ Ob please note "to ensure the *public* safety [emphasis
                 added]".  Hilarity ensues.
2005/9/9-13 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Reference/Military] UID:39594 Activity:kinda low Cat_by:auto
        COMPTON--... Hipolito, his wife and his 16-year-old brother had been
        looking at CDs, passing the hour it would take for their car stereo to
        be repaired. ... two assailants had asked the brothers: Where are you
        from, what gang? The Hipolitos said they were from nowhere, no gang.
        Osiel Hipolito ... told the men: I'm in the U.S. Navy. ... Sheriff's
        officials said the Hipolitos had no connection to any gang activity ...
        Then the gunman starts shooting with a semiautomatic weapon, first at
        Hipolito, who falls to the ground, and then into the abdomen of his
        wife ...                                                -jblack
        \_ Please don't ascribe posts to me I have nothing to do with.
           This seems to be happening on a daily basis.  As if I
           even read the LA Times. -jblack
           \_ Congratulations! You finally signed your name for the first
              time ever! Tell us how it feels. Come on, don't be shy...
              \_ To paraphrase John Kerry on his life-changing secret
                 mission into Cambodia on Christmas Eve, it is a life
                 changing experience.
              \_ And you're one to talk... why? -jrleek
           \_ Justin, I find it interesting that while you signed your
              name to clarify that you're not the original poster, you make
              no attempt to reject the accusation below that you're a racist.
              Now that we're clear on your stance on race, and you seem
              darn open about it, is there anything else you'd want us
              to know about you? Do you also hate Jews and fags? How
              about these damn foreigners taking our jobs? Please respond
              to this thread, otherwise I'll take your silence as yes and yes
              about these damn foreigners taking our jobs?
              \_ I've always been told that if you get into a fight with a
                 swine, you both get dirty, but the swine likes it dirty.
                 That may or may not have anything to do about jblack's
                 reluctance to engage his attacker.  - !jblack
        \_ So it makes no difference what you say, really. They just need
           to shoot someone. I'm sure you'll get shot at no matter what.
           \_ No.  This is what you say: "It is against the law for you to
              attack me, and I am calling the police."  Remember, the police
              is there to protect you.
        \_ Yes, Justin Black ( and
 , we know that you hate nigers, beaners,
                                        I hate bad spellers _/  -!jblack
           chinks, and what not. Is there anything else you want to add?
           \_ I love how you treat this like some kind of contest between
              you and jblack to see who can be the bigger butt-hole.  Even
              more amazing is that you seem to be winning.
              \_ As long as you classify him as a butthole, I don't care
                 what you call me. Thank you. I'll worker harder from now on.
                 \_ You do realize that all you're doing it to cause some of
                    feel sympathy for jblack.
                    \_ Yes, it's called the Rove tactic. jblack knows what
                       he is doing when he insults himself. Go Bush!!!
2005/9/8-10 [Reference/Military] UID:39573 Activity:nil
9/8     The Circle is complete: Mexican army convoy rolls into storm-affected
        states with supplies: (Reuters)
2005/9/6-7 [Reference/Military] UID:39524 Activity:low
9/6     Dear John and ilyas, please proceed with the duel. I'm willing to
        lend you guys my taser guns. Why taser guns? Because it is safer
        than guns yet equally effective. Also I just want to see my new
        taser guns work in action. I'll setup a place where you guys
        can duel. How does Foster City sound? I know a perfect place for
        this kind of stuff, at this long, beautiful bridge in near where
        I live. Ilyas, since you have no friends you're more than welcome
        to stay at my apartment.
        \_ Tell you what, I was trolled while in a foul mood and responded a
           lot more aggressively than I should have.  I also duly apologized
           to ilyas.  I do, however, invite ilyas to join me in challenging
           you to a GUN DUEL.  Are you scared?  -John
        \_ In all seriuosness, a quake death match tournament between
           the various motd trolls would be fun.
        \_ I think you've been trolled, man.
           \- they have decided to resolve it by DUELING BANJOS. --zell@soda
              \_ SQUEAL LIKE A PIG BOY!
                 \_ He shore does have a purdy mouth.
        \_ I have a couple of 1911s you can choose from.
        \_ I'd love to see a wimpy nerd zapping a big German coward, or
           the other way around. The thought of them electricuting each
           other, with the shaking and the sparks... it'll be quite a show.
           They should open up a Hate Duel Shop where two opponents settle
           their score by each depositing money in an account (the shop takes
           X% of the deposit), and let the two duel using sticks, tasers,
           or some other non-legal but effective weapons. The winner takes
           the entire pot. This is much more entertaining and much more
           profitable than say, Small Claims.
           \_ Cool, heil cherman john guy got a little helper!  It's an
              especially nice touch how you throw out seemingly relevant
              insults, including "coward", anonymously.  -John
        \_ this is awesome. what would be even cooler is if one of you guys
           shot the other one fatally while holding the office of vp of the
           unites states, and later became involved in several attempts to
           bring down the us government.        --aaron burr #1 fan
           \_ Without milk.  -John
2005/9/2-3 [Health/Men, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39439 Activity:kinda low
9/2     "Chaos and gunfire hampered efforts to evacuate the Superdome,
        and, Superintendent P. Edward Compass III of the New Orleans
        Police Department said, armed thugs have taken control of the
        secondary makeshift shelter at the convention center.
        Superintendent Compass said that the thugs repelled eight squads
        of 11 officers each he had sent to secure the place and that
        rapes and assaults were occurring unimpeded in the neighboring
        streets as criminals "preyed upon" passers-by, including
        stranded tourists."
                 \_ i.e. white people
        Huh .. what's going on?
        \_ If there was ever proof that men descended from apes...
        \_ Dumb question: Why don't the cops/natl guard/etc. just shoot
           anyone who's not a cop/natl guard/etc. and armed on sight?
           Ordinarily I wouldn't advocate that, but since every extra day
           that people can't get rescued means more people dying, getting
           killed & raped it seems like the quickest solution.
           \- because they quickly duck underwater and escape to their secret
              underwater base.
              undersea base.
           \_ So you're advocating the murder of citizens who are legitimately
              brandishing firearms in an attempt to protect themselves from
              the armed thugs?  Troll harder.
              \_ Now, were you a gun control advocate before this?
           \_ Certainly not the only reason, but one reason is this: people
              shoot back.  How many dead cops would you like to add to the
              body count and how is a war on the citizens of NO going to help?
              There are so many other reasons why this is bad I'm at a loss
              to begin ennumerating them.  You're just trolling, right?
                \_ Okay, let's just let everyone die then.
                  \_ Your response is non-responsive.  Now I know you're
                      trolling.  Thanks for joining us today.
           \_ Same reason why you avoid shooting into any possible area,
              civilians. Take the gun safety class. If you are not sure of
              your target, don't shoot. Too many video games for you...
              \_ Uh, you see a mob of armed thugs ... You shoot them
                 \_ Is he a thug or a man protecing his family? Did he not
                    hear you? Does he not recognize your authority? Is there
                    a child standing behind the wall behind the thug? Where
                    will your stray shots go? Is my objective to kill or
                    disarm? If disarm, why am I shooting from a distance?
                    \_ The media are talking about roving bands of armed men.
                       Somehow cops all over the country, not to mention all
                       over the world are capable of making this distinction
                       on a daily basis yet in NO right now, where it should
                       be REALLY obvious this suddenly becomes 10X harder?
                       \_ Nothing says photo op better than cops/troops in
                          helicopters shooting into the city. And being a cop
                          is different from being a soldier. Unless there are
                          lives in immediate danger, cops make sure the shots
                          they take are 'safe' shots.
2005/8/30-9/2 [Reference/Military] UID:39368 Activity:nil
8/30    US Army auditor who blew whistle on Halliburton contract is fired:
        \_ In another news Halliburton is hired to rebuild Louisiana.
2005/8/26-29 [Reference/Military] UID:39294 Activity:moderate
8/26    Okay, I want to buy a gun.  I don't need it, but just wanna get
        one cause it's fun and cool, and it's one thing I can't do in
        most other countries.  I lean towards not allowing guns, but
        on a personal basis, if it's legal, I feel like exercising my
        right and freedom, and also it feels good to annoy mot.
        what gun should I get?  where can I get a basic gun safety
        training?  and where can I go shoot?
        beretta? glock? s&w revolver?  where do I buy them?
        \_ Get 2 Desert Eagles in silver and don't look back
        \_ If you're in the SF/BA, Target Master's in milpitas is an
           excellent indoor shooting range with a great selection of
           weapons that you can rent.  Their staff is good and willing to
           answer questions from novices.  My suggestion is to go to a
           range where you're comfortable, get your HSC, try out a
           selection of weapons in different calibers, then make a
           decision.  I'd suggest Beretta (92/96), Smith Wesson 490*, HK
           USP, or maybe Sig 22*.  For a beginner, you might want to start
           decision.  I'd suggest Beretta (92/96), Smith Wesson 40[03|06|13],
           HK USP, or maybe Sig 22*.  For a beginner, you might want to start
           with a revolver in .22 to get used to handling a firearm, then
           granduate to a 9mm semi.  Email me if you have questions.  -mice
        \_ If you're in the SF/BA, Target Master's in milpitas is an excellent
           indoor shooting range with a great selection of weapons that you
           can rent.  Their staff is good and willing to answer questions from
           novices.  My suggestion is to go to a range where you're
           comfortable, try out a selection of weapons in different calibers,
           get your HSC, then make a decision.  I'd suggest Beretta (92/96),
           Smith Wesson 490*, HK USP, or maybe Sig 22*.  For a beginner, you
           might want to start with a revolver in .22 to get used to handling
           a firearm, then granduate to a 9mm semi.  Email me if you have
           questions.             -mice
           \_ How about Sig Pro vs. Sig 22*?
           \_ Target Masters seconded.
           \_ What is a S&W 490*?
              \_ Smith and Wesson 4003 TSW, 4006 TSW, 4013 TSW -- typo on my
                 part.    Corrected -- thanks!     -mice
        \_ Don't get a glock. -- ilyas
           \_ So are you guys against all polymer frames or just Glocks? What
              about a Sig Pro?
           \_ Another thing about glocks I forgot to mention.  They, uh ..
              they tend to explode.  See 'the glock ka-boom faq':
     -- ilyas
           \_ Seconded.  -John
              \_ Thirded. Damn thing was too small for my hand. --erikred
                 \_ Fourthed, I guess.  I loathed the pull - felt uneven. -mice
                    \_ Fifthed.  Feels like a blocky piece of crap in my
                       hands. -geordan
                    \_ I've heard the "don't buy a glock" advice now from
                       quite a few people who know guns.  So if people in the
                       know all hate them so much, why are they so successful?
                       Brilliant marketing?  What?
                       \_ They are successful because Glocks have one advantage
                          -- they are _extremely_ reliable and resistant to
                          shocks, dirt, sand, water, etc.  However, there are
                          plenty of guns that have comparable durability to
                          Glocks without all the, well, suck. -- ilyas
                       \_ The marketing helps too.  I just hate the balance on
                          them--it doesn't feel like a gun.  -John
                       \_ I thought a lot of the law enforcement use was
                          because of the safety. -geordan
                          \_ Glocks have a safety? -- ilyas
                             \_ They have a "trigger safety" and internal
                                safeties against non-triggered fire.
                             \_ Not a safety safety.  I meant the "dropping
                                it on the ground" safety.  Safeness.  Fine,
                                I'll find a /. article to torture you with.
                                \_ Glocks have almost no safety features.  This
                                   makes them very mechanically simple, much
                                   less likely to misbehave in the hands of a
                                   panicky or freaked out cop/soldier, and
                                   very, VERY cheap.  It is seen as a true
                                   professional's gun in its stripped down
                                   simplicity.  This makes it somewhat less
                                   safe for anyone other than really hardcore
                                   gun people or professionals.  That's the
                                   theory, anyhow.  *shrug*  I still don't like
                                   them very much.  As a side note, no
                                   modern semi-auto will (should) fire if
                                   dropped, whether it's in the cocked state,
                                   safetied, decocked, etc.  IIRC, James
                                   Bond's Walther PPK was actually notoriously
                                   bad in this respect.        -mice
                                   \_ I am not sure I believe this.  Lots of
                                      cops shoot themselves in the foot
                                      (literally!) with glocks every year.
                                      It _is_ an excellent gun if you plan
                                      to roam the jungles and fieldstrip it
                                      often enough to appreciate how few parts
                                      there are. -- ilyas
                                      \_ Well, yeah.  I know CCCSO considers
                                         the glock an out-of-policy weapon for
                                         exactly that reason.  That's partly
                                         why, I believe, it's viewed as a true
                                         professional's weapon -- that if you
                                         don't know what you're doing, you'll
                                         shoot yourself in the foot, etc -- but
                                         that's counterbalanced by the gun's
                                         simplicity/reliability and its ease
                                         of use right out of the holster, etc.
                                         Personally, I think that reputation
                                         speaks of a mentality which has more
                                         to do with machismo and less to do
                                         with pragmatism.  I mean, as you
                                         pointed out above, there's no reason
                                         why you can't carry your Smith cocked
                                         and hot...but I think that's a great
                                         way to make an ass of yourself by
                                         shooting your toe off with your own
                                         service weapon.        -mice
                 \_ So if I have small hands it's good?
                    \_ Maybe.  Beretta also makes a 92/96 model with slimmer
                       grips (the Vertec).         -mice
        \_ Shooting on a regular basis can get pricy. Owning a gun just to
           \_ Highly dependant on caliber, dude.  .22 is cheap.
           \_ People who shoot regularly often invest in reloading equipment.
              This makes shooting significantly less expensive as a hobby.
              As a bonus, you can become a powder/ballistics geek. -- ilyas
           have a gun is kinda stupid. There are a few places to go for a
           handgun safety class. Train and learn first before you start
           popping off about gun makers and calibers. Where do you live?
           \_ This post added nothing to the thread at all, aside from you
              taking the opportunity to declare your semi-informed opinions.
              My brother in law (a collector more into rifles than pistols)
              says that the Chabot Gun Club is pretty decent.  As the
              previous poster reiterates, definitely get your HSC before
              handling a gun -- it's the absolute minimum in terms of
              safety the state of CA requires in order to own.  More
              advanced casses are highly recommended, though.  You could
              probably also call Target Master's for better pointers to
              other gun clubs that offer classes.  This all assumes that
              you're in the BA, of course.  If not, then you could probably
              just call the local gun store (google/yahoo can help find one).
              They usually somewhat connected as a community.   -mice
              says that the Chabot Gun Club is pretty decent.  As was said
              before, definitely get your HSC before handling a gun -- it's
              the absolute minimum in terms of safety the state of CA
              requires in order to own.  More advanced casses are highly
              My brother-in-law (a collector more into rifles than pistols)
              says that the Chabot Gun Club is pretty decent.  Yeah,
              definitely get your HSC before handling a gun -- it's the
              absolute minimum in terms of safety the state of CA requires
              in order to own.  More advanced casses are highly
              in order to own.  More advanced classes are highly
              recommended, though.  You could probably also call Target
              Master's for better pointers to other gun clubs that offer
              classes.  This all assumes that you're in the BA, of course.
              classes.  This all assumes that you're in the SF/BA, of course.
              If not, then you could probably just call the local gun store
              (google/yahoo can help find one).  They usually somewhat
              connected as a community.   -mice
              (google/yahoo/YP can help find one).  They're usually somewhat
              connected as a community, and are likely to be knowledgable
              and willing to help.      -mice
        \_ Depends on your ergonomics, and if you want a safety. Never
           depend on a safety, but many jurisdictions like LA are getting
           draconian about "safety features." Some guns have loaded chamber
           indicators as well. Like with cars, the imports usually cost
           more. But going to any indoor range in CA will never prepare
           you for when you really have to use your gun. Get a shotgun
           for that. Drop me a line for more. -jlee
        \_ I really like my WWII vintage Remington/Colt .45 M1911.  It feels
           more like an heirloom than a soulless tool, and is a pleasure
           to shoot.  There was a _lot_ of discussion of "how-to" gun safety
           and mechanics type of stuff on the motd about a year ago, look at
           KAIS archive; a lot of people mentioned good tips about what to
           look out for, where to go, etc.  -John
        \_ For most things I stick to dual berettas, but I usually
           carry a desert eagle or dual ingrams to deal with tricky
           situations. -mpayne
           \_ I dunno, man.  My glock has always served me well -- even in the
              most extreme situations.       -gfreeman
              \_ Word on the street is that you do your best work with your
                 \_ Guns are for pussies -- I like SWORD!  That's a personal
                    weapon.                 -lwang
        \_ Do any motd people have Class III/Title II or whatever weapons?
           Silencers, machineguns?
           \_ I hear John has a tank.
              \_ I didn't get the tank because I had myself declared psycho
                 in lieu of having to spend 15 weeks being told by farm boys
                 to do pushups.  I did, however, acquire an arsenal from a
                 colleague under some weird circumstances recently, and a
                 friend in Germany has a bunch of machine guns and sniper
                 rifles and other scary shit.  -John
           \_ Don't have them, but just two weeks ago I was out visiting
              relatives in Atlanta who are in the gun business, and got
              to try a whole host of stuff that you can't get in the
              good ol' People's Republic of California.
                \_ That's the People's Democratic Republic of Kalifornia, fool
                   \_ Should be Democratic People's Republic of Kalifornia
                      \_ I hate the smell of motd humor in the evening.
                      \_ All hail Kimnold Jongilnegger!
                         \-Hasta La Vista, PSB
       \_ Don't forget to visit and sign up
        \_ You might want to consider this gun:
2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:39278 Activity:high
8/25    Hah, San Francisco is voting to ban handguns in November. -- ilyas
        \_ why is that amusing?  -tom
           \_ Because ilyas is not exactly what you called, a stable person
           \_ I suppose I am amused stupidity is alive and well in San
              Francisco. -- ilyas
              \_ That would never happen in LA.
                 \_ LA has already banned 50 BMG weapons.  Because you know,
                    they are used in crimes ALL THE TIME.  It's a veritable
                    CRISIS. -- ilyas
           \_ cuz this is America biatch!
              \- wasnt this tried in a chicago suburb a few yrs ago?
                 was that case materially different or are they trying to
                 get inconsistenecies on the books so cert. will be more
                      Why is the Deliverator so equipped? Because
                      people rely on him.  He is a roll model. This is
                      America. People do whatever the fuck they feel
                      like doing, you got a problem with that?
                      Becuase they have a right to. And because they
                      have guns and no one can fucking stop them.
                  ok tnx.
           \_ Because it's almost-but-not-quite as stupid as the Berkeley
              "nuclear free zone".  I object to them not trying to ban knives
              and clubs and ice picks and fruit bats and orang-utangs.  -John
              \- i dont know what is going on in SF, but the morton grove
                 law had teeth. it wasnt an essentially symbolic move like
                 berkeley "nuclear free policy" [or berkeley's various foreign
                 policy pronouncements]. note that after the law passed the
                 police didnt "round up" all the guns but were empowed to
                 keep what they came across. also this law had enough teeth
                 to be challenged in court. in "reponse" another community
                 in GA or alabama i believe passed a law requiring the head
                 of household to have a gun, or something like that.
                 \- BTW, the morton grove case applied to "handguns" not all
                    \_ Yes, like in the UK where you can still have rifles if
                       you are a member of a gun club.  Incidentally, the UK
                       also has the world's highest rate of video surveillance
                       and, IMHO, really-fucking-scary big brother-type laws,
                       such as ASBOs, RIP and PTA.  None of which stopped a
                       sharp rise in knife crimes, burglaries and beatings
                       since they banned private handgun ownership.  Not that
                       the ban was the direct cause of the rise in non-gun
                       violent crime, but it certainly didn't help curtail it
                       in any form.  I object to people who have problems with
                       mandatory waiting periods, background checks or safety
                       training as prerequisites for gun ownership, but a ban
                       is the sort of badly thought through populist gut-
                       reaction you get from "concerned citizens" and
                       politicians who want to be seen as "doing something".
                       It's as stupid and irrational as the NRA.  -John
                            \- well fighting it may cost the NRA $ and resources.
                       \_ Come on, John, the "argument" that they'll just
                          kill people with knives instead is ridiculous.
                          England's rate of death by stabbing is at least an
                          order of magnitude lower than the US's rate of
                          death by handgun.  -tom
                          \_ Somebody overwrote my reply to this.  Tom, re-read
                             my statement; I did not claim causality.  The
                             problem in the US is NOT GUN CRIME.  It is crime,
                             plain and simple.  Americans have this weird
                             psychotic "ban them" or "pry them from my cold
                             dead fingers" relationship with guns, neither of
                             which is a solution.  Anyway, about a year after
                             the handgun ban in the UK, a study found that
                             non-gun violent crime there was much higher than
                             in the US.  Once again, not causality, but I
                             stand by my assertion that banning guns simply
                             does not help; the UK did not have a tremendous
                             amount of gun homicides before the ban; in the US,
                             I would assume that other forms of crime would
                             rise after a ban, yes.  -John
                             \- the gary becker school has claimed if guns
                                become difficult to find, it will shift the
                                victim profile toward old people and women
                                in face to face confrontations, since a hood
                                will be less inclined to hold up a young
                                male with "only" a knife.
                          \_ Another dose of true-but-irrelevant statistics
                             from Tom.  What you should be comparing is, for
                             instance, murder rates pre and post ban.  Or,
                             more interestingly, crime rates in general pre and
                             post ban.  Or, even more interestingly, the pre
                             ban gun crime rates (we are talking about three
                             (3) gun homicides a year).  What societal crisis
                             ban gun crime rates.  What societal crisis
                             was this ban supposed to have solved exactly?
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ high murder rate isn't a societal crisis,
                                right. -tom
                                \_ Are you claiming England had a high gun
                                   murder rate, pre-ban?  Compared to
                                   other countries, and other kinds of murders?
                                     -- ilyas
                          \_ A handgun ban in San Francisco is particularly
                             offensive since the SFPD is notorious for simply
                             ignoring the pleas of citizens to patrol and
                             protect certain areas.  I have a cute female
                             friend who's rather short of stature that has
                             recently been forced to take an apartment in
                             the Tenderloin (long story).  She has seen some
                             incredibly scary shit in her neighborhood in
                             just the 3 weeks that she's lived there, and
                             fears for her life.  When she saw a gang of
                             approximately 30 people beating a single man
                             to death, she called the cops - no response.
                             Her complaints and calls to various departments
                             and government offices around the city have all
                             been met with the same response - basically,
                             "We don't give a fuck."  Not everyone who lives
                             in the TL is a crackhead or a prostitute, and
                             it's just insane that the SFPD basically thinks
                             you're expendable if you have to live there.
                             Take away the guns, and you probably take away
                             one of their few options for self-protection.
                             \_ knock on the nearest manhole and borrow some
                                weapons from the ninja turtles.
                             \_ Call them and tell them you and 3 friends are
                                about to open fire on the guys.  -John
        \_ Will DiFi be allowed to keep her concealed carry?
2005/8/19-20 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:39182 Activity:low
8/18    Really, I probably wouldn't admit to this attack (Yahoo)
        \_ Why not?  Terrorism and guerilla warfare rely only in part on
           intimidating your military opponents into thinking they can be
           attacked from anywhere; a large part of the point is to gain
           credibility with the kind of gullible young thugs who're easily
           impressed with this sort of thing--and what's more daring and
           impressive than hitting a US navy warship?  -John
           \_ Except they didn't.  They just killed some random innocent
              Jordan soldier.  I would file that under "screw up."  I see
              what you're saying though.
           \_ terrorism is weak , nothing more absolute than dropping
              a nuke on mecca
              \_ That would just incite more retributive attacks.  How about
                 nuking (or really just conventially blowing up) one of those
                 extremist Islamic schools for every terror attack.
                 \_ Yeah, cuz killing children doesn't piss anyone off.
2005/8/16-17 [Reference/Military] UID:39142 Activity:kinda low
8/16    Two plane crashes and one earthquake together.  The sky is falling.
        \_ they should make the cockpitsbullet proof, chemical proof, and
           have a separate safety feature for decompression.
           \_ many airliners (737s included) keep cabin emergency O2 and
              cockpit emergency O2 separate.
              \_ Why is the Greek authority so sure at this early stage that
                 it's not a terror act?  I remember there was a movie where
                 someone injected something into the AC system, making everyone
                 else unconscious.
                 \_ They're not sure it's not a terror act.
                    \_ I saw article yesterday saying they had ruled it out.
                 \_ Didn't this particular plane have a number of emergency
                    decompressions in the past?
           \_ My theories:
              (1) Either the pilot and co-pilot were taken by surprise
                  (perhaps by another crewmember), or one of them off'd the
                  other one.
              (2) AC system really fucked up and pumped nasty gases much
                  faster into the cockpit than the cabin.  Unfortunately,
                  the cabin was locked at the time.
        \_ planes should also have an emergency over-ride.  If necessary,
           ground control can remotely control the plane.
           \_ If terrorists on the ground take over the control room ......
              \_ have a safety feature where there has to be agreement
                 between two or more locations in very different locations.
                 this would be a secret.  This system would also help
                 prevent hijackers from taking over planes and crashing
                 them into buildings.
                 \_ "Each ship has it's own combination code..."
                    " prevent an enemy to do what we're attempting; using
                     our console to order Reliant to lower her shields..."
                    "Assuming he hasn't change the combination. He's quite
                    \_ ST:TNG?  Which episode?
                       \_ Are you just trying to bait Star Trek movie guy,
                          or do you seriously not recognize the ship name
                 \_ Sounds like a good idea.  It probably can't prevent
                    hijackets from crashing the plane onto ground (he can smash
                    everything in the cockpit with a suitcase), but it can
                    prevent crashing into specific targets.
2005/8/14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Reference/Military] UID:39121 Activity:nil
8/14    Compare and contrast Cindy Sheehan with James Smith
        Media Bias: The Press, the Prez and the Parent
2005/8/10-13 [Reference/Military] UID:39087 Activity:low
8/10    "A 7-day waiting period for a gun?  That's stupid!  No one can
        stay mad that long."
        Emo Philips performing in SF Thursday through Saturday
        \_ Think about this next time there is a riot.
           \_ Should have bought a gun way before a riot breaks out.  I'm
              serious.  Otherwise, it's like trying to fix a barn after....
              What's more annoying to me is the fact that even if I own a
              gun (or many guns), it still takes 7 days (or 30 days for
              handguns) to get another one.
              \_ you both officially have no sense of humor.  Good job.
              \_ "I dream of a world in which I can buy alcohol, tobacco,
                  and firearms at the same drive-in window, and use them
                  all before I get home from work." - Dogbert
                  \_ "I dream in a world where the government tells me what
                      I can and cannot do to myself." Oh wait.. it's reality
2005/8/3-4 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38969 Activity:nil
8/3     "Brig. Gen. Carter Ham ... acknowledged that U.S. and multinational
        forces have faced a number of direct attacks from rebels. The reason,
        he said, is that U.S. and multinational forces have swarmed the
        western Iraq area, limiting rebels from fleeing towns and perhaps
        causing more direct confrontations. When asked whether U.S. forces
        have been able to diminish rebels from inside Iraq or Syria from
        operating, Ham said, 'Absolutely not.' Marines acknowledge many more
        troops would be needed to have a permanent presence in every guerrilla
        enclave along the river, stretching for hundreds of miles to the
        Syrian border. But Ham said today he was uncertain whether the spate
                 \_ Probably these horrible "flush-less" urinals they've been
                    putting in highway rest stops over here--they have a valve
                    at the bottom which drains the things when they fill past
                    a certain degree, and don't let any smell out of the pipe.
                    Needless to say, the bits you pee on above the pipe also
                    smell.  A lot.  -John
        of deaths would lead to more troops being deployed in the area.
        ... Army Gen. George W. Casey, America's top commander in Iraq, set
        November as a goal for U.S. troops to wrest away control of Iraq's
        western borders."
2005/7/29 [Reference/Military, Reference/History/WW2] UID:38876 Activity:low
7/28    John, this is for you... on the reference of ww2
        "Nippon's true aim in the prosecution of the Greater East
        Asia War is the maintenance of self-existence and self-defense
        for the Empire and the emancipation of the peoples in Greater
        East Asia from the yoke of the United States and Britain.
        This sacred war aim is recognized by all human beings on
        earth. There is a world of difference between our war aim
        and that of the United States and Britain.
        \_ Yeah, and it was war necessity to kill and rape 300k civilians in
           the city of Nanjing in order to achieve this.
           \_ Sometimes you must choke a dog in order to give it medicine.
2005/7/18-19 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38694 Activity:nil
        Good stuff on that website. -- ilyas
        \_ Hmm, that's an interesting site.  I'll have to read it through
           when I have more time.  Thanks for posting it, ilya.     -mice
2005/7/15-18 [Reference/Military, Reference/Religion] UID:38634 Activity:nil
7/15    Okay, this is old, but good:
        Dawkins on suicide bombers.
        \_ This article contains religion-bashing.  Where o where are the
           \_ Note the date on the article.
        \_ gee, such dry wit: "How about using humans as on-board guidance
           systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as
           pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon
           brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior."
        \_ Good essay. -- ilyas
2005/7/12-13 [Consumer/Camera, Reference/Military, Computer/Theory] UID:38548 Activity:nil
7/11    Just wanted to thank the person who posted about the PBS special
        Guns, Germs and Steel. Tonight's eps. (the 1st?) was pretty good.
        I'm not sure I completely agree w/ the premise that geography
        dictated "success", but I'm pretty sure I can go along w/ the
        fact that it predisposed certain people to create civilization
        and culture.
           \_ I can't believe I missed this book when I came out in
              1999. I'm going to have to get it from the library after
              finals. BTW, he seems to have written another book last
              year called Collapse. Have you read that one?
        \_ I forgot to watch.  The newest hardback edition of the book
           out now has a new chapter on the author's theory of the
           origin of the Japanese language and people. - danh
           \_ I can't believe I missed this book when I came out in
              1999. I'm going to have to get it from the library after
              finals. BTW, he seems to have written another book last
              year called Collapse. Have you read that one?
        \_ I read the stuff at, which seemed to contain the entire
           show content, and you can read it all in 5 minutes or whatever.
           I guess seeing the landscapes and people on camera would be fun.
           Oh well.
           \_ I watched it in HD and it looked great.
           \_ not
2005/6/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:38349 Activity:moderate
6/29    Bush criticism deleted. It's unlikely you'll convince Bush supporters
        and anti-war people in any direction any how.
        \_ Not true. You can't convince Bush supporter to go for peace in the
           face of threats, but I'm pretty sure a pacifists will be pissing in
           the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at him.
           the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at
           \_ If you don't support Bush, you're a hippie weirdo peacenik
              raghead-loving vegan nutjob, whose only good trait is a
              reasonable command of the English language.  -John
                 \_ GWB may not have the the powerful command of the English
                    language, but he sure has the most powerful military
                    command in the world.
                    \_ I was indirectly referring to the hope that pp is a
                       poor troll attempt, because if he/she/it isn't, a
                       swift and merciless beating is in order.  -John
                       \_ A bona fide redneck would not have misused the
                          phrase "pissing in the wind".
        \_ Not true. Bush's support falls every month.
2005/6/21-22 [Reference/Military] UID:38222 Activity:low
6/21    Draft these people
        \_ HAH AH A this is HILARIOUS thanks for the joke
           (fyi it's about Confederates fighting Star Trek guys)
           \_ Highly amusing, thank you. Check the date on it as well.
2005/6/17 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38179 Activity:high 63%like:38170
6/17    [Hey, I was challenged to read this.  I did and here are my comments.
        Please don't delete it for at least a day or so.]
        I've read the Lancet study (Oct 2004) and it does seem to have some
        problems.  In particular:
        - the "100,000 dead" number comes from a 95% conficence interval
          spanning 8,000 to 194,000.  Pretty big range there.
        - "Interviewers were initially reluctant to ask to see death
          certificates because this might have implied they did not believe the
          respondents, perhaps triggering violence. Thus, a compromise was
          reached for which interviewers would attempt to confirm at least two
          deaths per cluster."
        - "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded.
          Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely
          for respondents to fabricate deaths.
          "It is possible that deaths were not reported, because families might
          wish to conceal the death or because neonatal deaths might go without
        - "When violent deaths were attributed to a faction in the conflict or
          to criminal forces, no further investigation into the death was made
          to respect the privacy of the family and for the safety of the
        - "Of these, two were attributed to anti-coalition forces, two were of
          unknown origin, seven were criminal murders, and one was from the
          previous regime during the invasion."
          This suggests that violent crime was mixed in with war-related deaths.
        - The slate article ( that criticizes
          the study points right to the biggest problem: the cluster
          "During September, 2004, many roads were not under the control of the
          Government of Iraq or coalition forces.  Local police checkpoints
          were perceived by team members as target identification screens for
          rebel groups. To lessen risks to investigators, we sought to minimise
          travel distances and the number of Governorates to visit, while still
          sampling from all regions of the country. We did this by clumping
          pairs of Governorates."
          So their random sample is reduced dramatically.

          Like all statistial analyses, the results can be hugely varied
          depending on methodology.  I see the Lancet study as seriously flawed
          and the claim of 100,000 extra dead invalid.  See the slate article
          for a link to the .pdf of the study and read it yourself. -emarkp
        \- for a long comment like this, why dont you put a link to
           ~ping/lancet.blurb. people can put short followups here.
        I've read the Lancet study (Oct 2004) and it does seem to have some
        problems.  In particular:
        \- Why dont you move long comments like to an external file?
        - the "100,000 dead" number comes from a 95% conficence interval
          spanning 8,000 to 194,000.  Pretty big range there.
        - "Interviewers were initially reluctant to ask to see death
          certificates because this might have implied they did not believe the
          respondents, perhaps triggering violence. Thus, a compromise was
          reached for which interviewers would attempt to confirm at least two
          deaths per cluster."
        - "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded.
          Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely
          for respondents to fabricate deaths.
          "It is possible that deaths were not reported, because families might
          wish to conceal the death or because neonatal deaths might go without
        - "When violent deaths were attributed to a faction in the conflict or
          to criminal forces, no further investigation into the death was made
          to respect the privacy of the family and for the safety of the
        - "Of these, two were attributed to anti-coalition forces, two were of
          unknown origin, seven were criminal murders, and one was from the
          previous regime during the invasion."
          This suggests that violent crime was mixed in with war-related deaths.
        - The slate article ( that criticizes
          the study points right to the biggest problem: the cluster
          "During September, 2004, many roads were not under the control of the
          Government of Iraq or coalition forces.  Local police checkpoints
          were perceived by team members as target identification screens for
          rebel groups. To lessen risks to investigators, we sought to minimise
          travel distances and the number of Governorates to visit, while still
          sampling from all regions of the country. We did this by clumping
          pairs of Governorates."
          So their random sample is reduced dramatically.

          Like all statistial analyses, the results can be hugely varied
          depending on methodology.  I see the Lancet study as seriously flawed
          and the claim of 100,000 extra dead invalid.  See the slate article
          for a link to the .pdf of the study and read it yourself. -emarkp
        \_ emarkp, i think you need to be a little less verbose.
           \_ So does the Lancet when they're making up numbers.  etc.  -emarkp
          \_ the death amount is 40k to 150k at a 85% confidence interval
             and 60k to 120k at a 75% confidence interval. The report did
             not claim that all ~100k were killed by American action, on the
             contrary, many were known to have died due to the unstable
             security situation. If the study is so flawed, why doesn't anyone
             else do one to debunk it. We know the Pentagon has its own
             numbers, why don't they release them?
             \_ I think these numbers:
                are more reliable. -emarkp
                \_"Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths - which
                   can only be a sample of true deaths unless one assumes that
                   every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that
                   many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by
                   the media. That is the sad nature of war." -FAQ from that
                   site. So they are a very reliable count of what they are
                   counting, which is known to be an underestimate of the
                   total number of people killed.
                   \_ Unless deaths are over reported. -emarkp
2005/6/16-18 [Reference/Military] UID:38155 Activity:nil
        The Army misses the recruitment target, lowers its target in May,
        and still misses it. One of the solutions is to retain GIs it
        usually kicks out, including the guys "on weight control, school
        no-shows, drug users, etc." Here is a proposal for you PRESIDENT
        BUSH. Why don't you stage another terrorist attack on our soil
        to get us all hyped up for the war?
        \_ Yeah, 9/11 was staged. And Danny Lewin, ex-Sayaret Matkal,
           didn't really die. I hope California gets returned Mexico
           so you dumbasses can see what you really missing when
           you don't understand the concepts of honor and duty.
           \_ OP never said 9/11 was staged.  And, really, is lying a
              nation into war honorable?
              \_ OP please explain which prior terrorist attack on our soil was
                 \_ Your reading comprehension is poor.  We've been attacked
                    before.  To say "stage another attack" does not require
                    that one was staged before.
        \_ I wonder if the number of homos being kicked out has dropped as
           in previous wars?
        \_ Here is a proposal to you, poster. Why don't you grow up?
2005/5/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:37768 Activity:kinda low
5/19    Why do we send US Marines to Afghanistan which is a landlocked country?
        \_ Why do we park in a DRIVEway and drive on a PARKway?
           \_ Why do we call goods on ships "cargo", and goods on cars
        \_ why we invade another country when we don't have Department of
           \_ I mean land relates to Army while water relates to Marines.
        \_ Because you have no idea what the Marines do or are capable of.
           \_ I guess I don't.  So why is that military branch called "Marines"
              instead of something like "Army-Lite" or "Agile Land Force".
                \_ I'm going to make shit up here and say that the US Marines
                   probably derive their original name from the british
                   Royal Marines, the royal marine's first name was
                   "Maritime Regiment Of Foot".  - danh
                   \_ Maybe, but the reality is that the Marines are part
                      of the Navy trained in amphibious assault. They
                      often get non-Naval assignments because they are
                      well-trained and mobile infantry. The SEALS get
                      called to do extra (non-naval) stuff, too.
        \_ already discussed last year:
           \_ Right, because once it's in the archives there'll NEVER be
              anything new to add.  Nope nope nope, nossir!
              \_ The first things I do is search the MOTD! If the nitwit
                 was going to search MOTD archives then we may as well
                 have searched Google and spared everyone the trouble.
                 \_ "It is only by studying our past that we can understand
           \_ Thanks!
2005/5/11-12 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:37621 Activity:nil
5/11    About the 15-mile-radius restricted air space in DC.  How fast can
        planes fly in low atmosphere?  If it's around 300mph, it'd only take
        three minutes to reach the center.  How is that enough time to scramble
        a fighter jet from ground to reach the plane and then try to
        communicate to the offending pilot, before deciding to shoot it down?
        \_ Wait for a redacted pdf outlining the military's plans, and then
           copy all of the text into a plain text file. The answers will be
           there. --eriikred
        \_ SAM
           \_ Oooo scary, Single Asian Man
           \_ when it gets to the SAM stage, the only choice is to shoot down
              or not, and when a plans is shot down, the wreckage has to land
              \_ It's better if the poor tourists gets the falling debris
                 than plane crashing into something important.
                 \_ yes, like our beloved George Bush.
        \_ believe me, they'll have jets ready by the time someone actually
           breaches the 15 mile circle.
        \_ Why would you want to fly into their airspace when you can easily
           do a Lee Boyd Malvo?
2005/5/6-8 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:37558 Activity:low
5/6     Does any part of a hollow point bullet liquify during its flight?
        \_ No.
           \_ so how does it end up looking like this?
              I just got this off of, and there are lots like it.
              That sure looks to me like it's melted.  Are you saying the
              solid just deforms in flight?
              \_ Lead is very, very soft.  The reason for using a hollow
                 point bullet is because it expands when it hits flesh, making
                 a much larger wound cavity than the initial caliber of the
              \_ it didnt' take that shape in flight, but rather upon impact.
2005/4/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:37192 Activity:moderate
4/14    So the media have all but ignored the Minuteman Project.  There are
        claims now that the Mexican Army are escorting mexicans to other
        parts of the border to cross, but there's pretty much zero coverage of
        this.  Why isn't this being investigated?
        \_ Almost as importantly is the lack of coverage that these
           illegals costs in range bombing time.
        \_ It's 24 miles worth of border and they have caught about 200
           people so far. Of course the Border Patrol is pissed off because
           the Minutemen, the activists watching the Minutemen, and the
           reporters following everyone are setting off alarms and messing
           with their own tracking. The Minutemen succeeded the first day
           when they got their 15 minutes of free press.
           \_ You obviously don't understand the project.  The number of
              illegals crossing the border in that section has dropped
              dramatically.  That's a success.
              \_ Errr...You aren't really *that* dumb are you?  Umm...maybe
                 you are...
              \_ Because it doesn't extrapolate out nicely. 500 volunteers
                 over 24 miles compared to paying X professionals over the
                 1950-odd mile Mexican border? Toss in Canada and you've
                 got a bit of a budget problem.
2005/3/24 [Reference/Military, Politics] UID:36855 Activity:low
3/24    Before that day, [10th-grader shot in the hip Cody] Thunder said he
        had talked to Weise several times, even attempting to befriend him.
        "He seemed like a loner, and I just felt like it would be good to go
        talk to him ... [but Weise] talked about nothing but guns and shooting
        people," ... the attempt to reach out didn't result in friendship.
        Weise covered his notebook with military insignia and would change his
        hair, once shaping it into a style "like devil horns or something, "
        ... "I never thought he would come up and try to shoot up the school.
        ... He looked right at me ... I thought he was messing around. I
        thought it was a paint gun or something."
        \_ I heard the statements. The shooter was trying to be evil. He
           found power in acting out his "evil" with the psuedo-goth getup
           and in his statements. It might have started out as an act, but
           eventually led to tragedy. I've wondered why the politicians
           haven't jumped on this given the newfound "Culture of Life" unless
           it has something with the shooter and most of the victims being poor
           and Native Americans.
2005/3/23-24 [Reference/Military] UID:36832 Activity:moderate
3/23    "I've challenged our human resource people to get as innovative as
        they can. ... " One of those is designed to persuade more parents to
        steer their children to the Army. "We're going to appeal to
        patriotism," [Secretary of the Army Francis J. Harvey] said.
        \_ What is wrong w/ wanting people to serve in the armed
           \_ Nothing is wrong with wanting people to serve in the armed
              forces.  Nonetheless, the decision to serve must remain a
              choice that is not subject to undue duress applied by third
              parties.  Thus, it gives me pause to see efforts designed to
              encourage *parents* to push their children toward the military.
              -dans (!OP)
              \_ When I asked about (college) ROTC before graduating HS, I
                 got an unsolicited note in the mail from a marines recruiter
                 saying something like "Dear Mr. & Mrs. Salomon (not my mom's
                 last name, and she is/was single) I am visiting you on xyz
                 date to discuss your son's joining hte Marine Corps."  -John
                 date to discuss your son's joining the Marine Corps."  -John
2005/3/22-24 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36818 Activity:low
3/22    "We've found Jewish Nazis, gay Nazis, blacks who wanted to be white
        supremacists. The reason it isn't so unusual -- these are powerless
        people to whom images of powerful people are appealing."
        \_ The boy killed his 60 year old grandpa and his **30** year old gf.
           \_ Native Americans have big equipment.
        \_ Wears bullet proof vest during the killing spree before shooting
           himself to death. I mean, what's the point of wearing bullet proof
           \_ Presumably to increase the odds that all but one bullet gets
              used on victims.
        \_ you know, we spend billions on the Iraq war to protect ourselves
           from terrorists, yet our own people terrorize ourselves. 86
           billion dollars spent on war is a lot of money that could have
           been spent on civic and social programs that might have prevented
           this tragedy. FUCK YOU GEORGE BUSH AND BUSH SUPPORTERS. I hope
           you guys go to hell and experience eternal sodomization by satan
           \_ Yeah, and had we spent that money on places like Afghanistan
              Syria and Iraq BEFORE 9/11 we could've prevented around 3000
              deaths. C'mon, people, are you forgetting the people who lost
              their lives because of terrorism?
                 \_ uh, yeah williamc, war in Iraq and Homeland Security
                    have made US much safer than before, I can just feel it
                    \_ To Canada with you!
                       \_ To Iraq with you, and you fight with the Army you
                          have, not with the Army you want!
           \_ But...what if they like it?
        \_ From
           "thus we are supporters of the Zionist state, Israel, insofar as it
           confines its influence to its own activities."
2005/3/18-19 [Reference/Military] UID:36746 Activity:low
3/15    Yahoo News:
        More gun control = increase in cross bow sales
        \_ and 10% drop in murder rates
           \_ Well, it IS a bit harder than handguns to aim and reload.
2005/3/15-16 [Reference/Military, Consumer/PDA] UID:36701 Activity:moderate
3/15    Anyone know what the big plot is next week for 24? who's the army
        \_ I can't believe I actually watch this horrible show, but...
           I don't think he's an army dude. He's a terrorist who's going
           to disguise himself as an airforce pilot and they're going to
           rub out/kidnap an actual airforce pilot and take the real pilot's
           place. My guess is that this pilot is supposed to be the pilot for
           Air Force One who's going to relieve the current pilot of AF1.
           All of the plots are related. Plot to kidnap senator was so they
           could insert the trojan to enable the override. Using the override
           to cause nuclear meltdown was to keep AF1 in the air so that they
           can eventually do the pilot switcheroo.
           \_ How is it horrible?
              \_ every female character is either a total bee-yotch or a
                 pathetic weakling for starters
                 \_ I think you should watch Alias instead. ;)
                 \_ I think you should watch Desperate Housewives.
                 \_ I'm watching Quantum Leap!
        \_ Who knows?  Who cares?  Just wait a week instead of spoiling it.
           \_ I can't, I can't!!!!
        \_ All you need to know to appreciate 24, which is horrible but
           amusiing nonetheless, is this: Kiefer Sutherland does something
           crazy each episode, and usually crazier than last season/week.
2005/3/4-5 [Reference/Military] UID:36519 Activity:kinda low
3/3     Proof that ilyas has a sense of humor (or humour as he put it):
        \_ The sword cost is inaccurate. There is also the wage to the
           sword wielder to consider. And I doubt one swordsman would
           be adequate.
           \_ not to mention the mess cleanup afterward.
              \_ Just get a bunch of sausage makers and sell the removal and
                 cleanup right to the highest bidder.  The money from the
                 sausage makers should cover whatever cost you might incur.
        \_ I prefer the Springer show thing he's got there, though it's a
           bit dated. The Dworkin stuff is so very 1993. My spouse is just
           about the only self-proclaimed feminist who hasn't moved on yet.
        \_ The entry about dictators is also incorrect; Repubs enjoy moving
           their former allies just as much as Dems do.
           \_ replies above prove that pps take everything too
              seriously and have no sense of humour. Jesus Christ lighten up!
              \_ Dude, we're cs geeks; we'll argue semantics and degrees of
                 precision all damn night without any real purpose or goal.
                 It's got very little to do with taking things seriously.
                 So, seriously, lighten up!
               \_ how dare you instruct our benevolent martyr to lighten up!
                  he died on the cross at the hands of man for YOUR SINS!
2005/2/9 [Reference/Military] UID:36121 Activity:nil
2/9     Stop the suicides!  Close the Golden Gate Bridge!
2005/2/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:36106 Activity:kinda low
2/8     Is there any conspiracy theory which is most likely true?
        \_ There really was a conspiracy to hide information about UFO's from
           the public.  The nonexistence of aliens did not stop the mindless
           wheels of government.
           \_ um yes, gov't consipiracy to cover up UFOs are true.
        \_ What do you mean? They're all true!
        \_ The Warren Commission report on the JFK assassination was almost
           certainly a coverup. I personally think they were covering up the
           fact that they really had no idea what happened, not that nutjob
           theory of your choice did it, but who really knows?
2005/2/5 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Reference/Military] UID:36069 Activity:kinda low
2/4     Gays w/ Guns in SF:
        \_ 'Edward, a self-described "libertarian, anarchist, socialist" with
            a "small arsenal" of guns at home, didn't want to give his last
            name.'  Uh... libertarian, anarchist sure... then add socialist?
            How does that work?
            \_ Wow, sounds like most of our motd posters!
2005/1/31 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35992 Activity:very high
1/31    Can anyone recommend a good book on the Vietnam war?  I'm realizing
        I don't actually know much about it.
        \_ "On Strategy", by Harry G. Summers Jr. for a purely military
           analysis of why we "lost".  -John
        \_ "In Retrospect : The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam"
           by the architect of it all, former Ford exec, Cal grad,w/zero combat
           exp. , and so-called "Whiz Kid" Robert Strange (REAL MN)McNamara
        \_ <deleted> - chicom troll pretender
           \_ deleted by real chicom troll
              \_ WTF? -the REAL chicom troll
                 \_ Will the real chicom troll please stand up....
                 \_ You are ALL lying! -ilyas
                    \_ [ sign my name for me at your peril, bitch. -- ilyas ]
                       \_ Or what?  You're going to nuke the motd....*again*?
                          \_ Well I can learn John's baseball bat method, if
                             you prefer. -- ilyas
                             \_ Smith and Wesson beats baseball bat more often
                                than not.
                                \_ I have a 1945 issue Remington-Rand M1911
                                   too.  -John
                                   \_ Yeah, and I've got a baseball bat also.
                                      So what?
                                      \_ 1942 issue Remington-Rand M1911 beats
                                         baseball bat more often than not.
                                         \_ No, goddamnit, no!  No recursion
                                            is allowed!  Eat my exit-condition,
                                \_ I d never buy Smith and Wesson, those
                                   wusses bowed down to the anti-gun lobby
                                   P.S.  My fans are starting to scare me.
                                     -- ilyas
                                   \_ Uhm, I don't think Smith and Wesson
                                      makes baseball bats, so that might be
                                   \_ Speaking of baseball bats and BULLDOZERS,
                                      is browning any good when it comes to
                                      pistols?  Hipower?
                                \_ Don't make my hero bust out with the
                                   BULLDOZER!!!  Yeah, that's right.  You're
                                   all quiet now.  -- ilyas #1 fan
                                   \_ RPG beats BULLDOZER!!! more often than
                                \_ Assault rifle beats RPG.
                 \_ OMGLOL
           \_ Simple, the US got more than what it bargained for. Got
              its ass kicked by the PRC army in Vietnam. Nixon had to
                \_ PRC army in Vietnam?  -John
                   \_ Yes, one of my uncle actually fought in Vietnam.
                      It wasn't like the Korean war where the PRC dumped
                      millions of soldiers in it, but it's also more than
                      just weapon supplies. -someone from mainland
                      \_ are you sure your uncle wasn't fighting in
                         the sino-vietnamese war which happened after
                         the americans got kicked out of vietnam?
                         \_ Oh, come on.  Read a fucking history book.
                            Yes, there were PRC soldiers fighting
                            Americans in Vietnam.
                            \_ Maybe a couple, but considering that the PRVN
                               was primarily Soviet-aligned, and the USSR and
                               ChiComs weren't getting along to well (not to
                               mention long-festering border incidents which
                               ended up as a full-on war in the late 1970s)
                               the whole thing about "PRC KICK YANKEE GI OUT
                               VIETNAM!" is pretty silly, especially given
                               that the US didn't lose a single decently
                               sized conventional engagement.  -John
              abandon Taiwan and go to China to establish diplomatic
              relationship with the PRC precisely because of the
              Vietnam War, because they come to realize during later
              stages of the war that one of their main base has been
              completely surrounded by the PRC army, despite their day
              and night of non stop bombing in the surrounding area
              (which you can find references to in the history channel
              but they stop short of telling you what happens
              afterwards), they've come to realize they cannot prevent
              the inevitable and will be overrun. The loss of life
              will be unacceptable to the US public. So Nixon sends
              you know who secretly to the PRC to negotiate. In the
              end the PRC withdraw its forces and the US pulled out,
              leaving everything behind including their beloved K9
              dogs. To those who think the US pulled out because of
              public pressure, its all bullshit, but surely sounds
              better than telling the public, look, if we sacrifice
              Taiwan, we will have XXX less body bags to bring home.
                \_ Your history is hilarious.  You should write a book.  -John
              \_ you got your history all backwards and confused.
                 we chicom didn't fight in vietnam.  if we did, you
                 wouldn't have lasted that long.  it's only our little
                 sister the vietcong fighting there.  stop imagining
                 things.                - real chicom troll
                 \_ e.g.
                    In short: both trollers and John are wrong.  China did
                    send a sizable number of soldiers (>~ one army division)
                    and though it wasn't convered extensively by the media, it
                    was never even a secret.  It didn't kicked US ass nor was
                    it ever intended to.  It's role is somewhat similar to US'
                    role in SK today: to convincine US not to attack with
                    ground force as it did in Korea.  Also worth noting: US
                    built SV into the world's 4th largest AF and army, and 5th
                    largest navy.  It is rather moot to say you never lost a
                    single conventional engagement.  That Austrian dude had the
                    world finest killing machines and still lost in the end.
                    \_ Thank you, good reading.
        \_ Watch "Fog of War" on DVD.  It's a very interesting one-on-one
           interview with the guy who was SecDef at the time.
           \- you might want to specify what you are looking for ... there
              are books by military people, journalists, photographers,
              political scientists/historians, intelligence people, and
              famous fictional works like The Ugly American or The Quiet
              American. --psb
                \_ Is _The Quiet American_ as good as _The Ugly American_ ?
                   \_ The book is nice, the movie's pretty but sort of
                      Graham Green Lite.
        \_ We Were Soldiers Once...And Young
2005/1/20 [Reference/Military] UID:35816 Activity:high
1/20    So it turns out Michael Moore doesn't want you to have a gun, but his
        bodyguard can have one.  And it doesn't even have to be licensed.
        \_ Who said he doesn't want you to have a gun?  You're a fucking idiot.
           \_ Hahahaha, are you watching the same documentaries with your
              eyes open? Did you see Bowling for Columbine? Did you see the
              part where he got K-Mart to stop selling bullets? What kind of
              chimpee are you? Next time, actually WATCH the documentary
              and keep your eyes OPEN and use that stuff between your eyes
              to RECORD in your MEMORY on what happened. I don't know what
              other type of action would qualify you more to be a pro-gun
              regulation person. Also, it's somewhat ironic that he's afraid
              now and requires a bodygaurd when the whole message behind
              now and requires a bodyguard when the whole message behind
              Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 was that fearmongering was
              generated by the Repubs and WASP America. The mere fact that
              he has a bodyguard pretty much undermines his message.
              \_ Dude, did we watch the same documentary? He's not anti-gun,
                 he's anti-gun lobby and anti-gun-stupidity. It's not a binary
                 world out there.
                 \_ Dude, talk about splitting hairs. That's like saying "
                    well, I'm not anti-gay, I just don't support gay marriage."
                    Dude, you're ANTI-GAY. So he's ANTI-GUN. Okay?
                    Okay. (Who the hell are these fucking morons who post
                    on the motd anyway?)
                    \_ I am not anti-gay but I don't support gay marriage.
                       (I support government recognized unions between
                       arbitrary sets of people, for bureaucratic purposes,
                       and private religious institutions of marriage between
                       whoever -- as long as you can find a priest to marry you).
                       I do not support gay marriage under the current use of
                       the term marriage in our society.
                       ... Having said that.  Does anyone here actually believe
                       Moore believes in the interpretation of the 2nd amend.
                       which states private citizens can own guns?  If so,
                       can I get a quote of his to this effect, rather than
                       idle speculation, or post hoc reasoning to justify
                       the fact that he has an armed bodyguard? -- ilyas
                       \_ I think not, but I'm pretty sure you couldn't find
                          one where he explicitly advocates banning guns
                          either.  I think the reason that Bowling for
                          Columbine was an interesting movie, while F911
                          was total horseshit was that it asked more questions
                          than it answered.  Ignoring the bloviating dickhead
                          above, Bowling for Columbine never really advocated
                          any particular position on gun control.  In fact
                          his whole point in talking about canada in the movie
                          was that they all have guns, but have a lot less
                          gun violence, in contradiction to the guns=violence
                          \_ I don't know, I think he asked fairly leading
                             questions (why not do things the Gandhi way?).
                             Of course, he may just have been trolling...
                             in which case he was using rhetoric (in the
                             dirty word sense found in Plato). -- ilyas
                             \_ I think "trolling" is actually a perfect
                                description of what Micheal Moore does, and
                                I think creative trolling really works in
                                certain circumstances.  This whole thread
                                is the response to a troll.  In F911 he
                                crossed the line from troll to one of those
                                long, disconnected rants that get moved
                                to /csua/tmp/looneytoon or whatever.
                    \_ Your position is pretty dumb.  There's these thingies
                       called 'rights' which are granted by this other thingy
                       called 'The Bill of Rights'.  It is possible to dislike
                       one person or group's implementation of those rights, or
                       the nature of a group's constituency while still fully
                       believing in the rights granted.  This isn't splitting
                       hairs, it's one of the benefits of education (well,
                       theoretically anyhow) -- it's called 'critical thinking'
                    \_ So if you don't believe that everyone has the right to
                       carry M16s in public, you are "anti-gun"? I thought
                       Mr. Moore was a big-time gun rights supporter!
                       \_ "Mr. Moore"?
                    \_ "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than
                       to speak and remove all doubt."  -Abe Lincoln
                    \_ Let's see: I don't like you, so I must be a
              \_ He got K-Mart to stop selling bullets?  Then he's just anti-
                 bullet, not anti-gun! :-)
        \_ After all the death threat's against him posted to Free Republic,
           he needs an armed bodyguard.
           \_ That's what the police are for.
        \_ All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
        \_ add Feinstein, Boxer and Schumer...
           \_ And State Senate Pro Tempore Don Peralta. They all have
                                               \_ Perata
              personal concealed carry licenses but don't you to have it.
        \_ Dude, RTFA: Moore has nothing to do with this nut having or not
           having a gun. The guy's a contract bodyguard, not part of Moore's
           retinue. "Burk has been assigned to protect Moore at times in the
           past, but is not his personal bodyguard, Gavin de Becker [Burk's
           boss] said." Nice troll, though, lots of cookies.
2004/12/17-19 [Reference/Military] UID:35347 Activity:low 71%like:35344
12/17   Does Jen on The Apprentice have maple booms?  I can't find any pics of
        her below the neck.
        \_ yes, they talked about her using her guns to her advantage.
           \_ What guns?
              \- The Guns of August
        \_ maple?
           \_ It's an edit.  It probably read 'ample boobs' or something before
              some twit edited it.
                \_ ha. thanks. -pp
2004/12/17 [Reference/Military] UID:35338 Activity:nil
12/17   The army is spending $4B to armor 38000 vehicles.  That's $105k per
        vehicle.  Why on earth does it cost so much?  They're not armoring it
        as tough as a tank.
        \_ Buy armor at rush-production prices, airlift if halfway around the
           world, and pay pork-barrel contractors too much money to install it.
2004/12/14 [Reference/Military] UID:35281 Activity:very high
12/13   Can you still get MP-40/44s? Or are they expensive antiques now?
        \_ Yes to both. .  A friend of mine is
           into collecting machine guns--I can ask him if you want.  You
           may have just the teensiest of issues with shipping, though.  Also
           check -- they have some in the classified
           section from time to time.  The one MP40 I found is $15k.  -John
           \_ Whoa. You can buy 10 M16s or 15 AK47s with that. Why would you
              want an old outdated gun that doesn't even shoot as well?
              \_ You are clearly trolling, but in fact old WWII german guns
                 are very good.  The AK47 (and similar designs like the Galil)
                 are basically copies of the Stwg44 that fell into russian
                 hands at the end of the war.  Many good modern bolt actions are
                 based on the mauser action found in the kar98k.  Finally,
                 the belt fed machine gun the germans used (the one responsible
                 for about 90% of german-inflicted casualties) was basically
                 copied by NATO countries.  Did you know that gun uses sand
                 as lubricant?  Don't dis german guns. -- ilyas
                 \_ Second that. Them guys knew what they were doing.
              \_ He's been playing call of duty too much. he wants to hold
                 the gun in his hands and feel like those old soldiers of
                 the Wehrmacht. Get a Luger to go with it and go on a rampage
                 at his local Safeway.
                 \_ All because of republican fuckheads in congress
                    refuse to ban assault weapon. Yeah sure, the
                    average John Doe needs a machine gun to protect
                    themselves. You know what, I think I need a
                    nuclear bomb to protect myself too. You want to
                    mess with me, we die together. I absolutely
                    positively must need that. Just think about all
                    the profits this could bring, building all these
                    portable nuclear weapons, lots of money for
                    republican fuckheads who have vested interest in
                    those companies. They'll have you believe even a
                    teenager needs a M16. Dickwads.
                    \_ I was watching some TV show and it says the
                       original constitution gives people right to
                       form armed militia. Does this still apply? Can
                       you actually form an armed militia without
                       being nuked by the government? I don't think
                       so, so why do we still allow weapons on the
                       streets? It's like the default fall through for
                       case statement in C, it's causing more trouble
                       than its worth. But who gives a fuck if you get
                       killed by a drive by shooting, I feel safe in
                       my rich neighborhood.
                       \_ You guys keep masturbating each other. -- ilyas
                          \_ Are you jealous that no one is masturbating you?
                             \_ "Yes, I am gonna marry a carrot." -- ilyas
                     \_ Aaron? Is that you man?
2004/12/12-13 [Reference/Military] UID:35254 Activity:low
12/12   I've been playing Call of Duty and I could pick up limited
        number of weapons. What is better, MP-40 or MP-44? I noticed
        that MP-40s have faster rate and are quiter while MP-44s
        are slower and have fewer rounds. Also, what about the Russian
        guns (with 76 bullets) that shoot really fast? Which weapons
        are the best to use?
        \_ MP40 has crap range.  Use a carbine if you can.  There are
           writeups on MoH/CoD weapons comparing them.  -John
           writeups on MoH/CoD weapons comparing them.  You would
           probably also really enjoy Pacific Assault.  -John
        \_ Shop and compare at's CoD Weapons Guide:
2004/12/7-8 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35206 Activity:high
12/7   Whatever happened to all the artists that are suppose to sing anti-war
       songs like the 70s?
       \_ Anti war songs question Our President's authority, and who would
          want to do that?
       \_ Last March, Joan Baez played at the march in the city.  We have a
          generation gap where music has fallen to something you listen to
          in the background.  If you troll for non-marketplace music, you
          will find PLENTY of anti-war songs.
       \_ Wait till we have been fighting in Iraq for five years. They
          are coming.
       \_ Eminem's Mosh
2004/12/4 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35172 Activity:nil
12/4    The War Effort, a new kind of comedy about a new kind of war:
        \_  Say, Hank.  You got any more pudding?
2004/12/1 [Reference/Military] UID:35148 Activity:very high
12/1    Yay!,1282,65885,00.html
        As early as March or April, 18 units of the Talon -- a model armed
        with automatic weapons -- are scheduled to report for duty in Iraq.
        ... Four cameras and a pair of night-vision binoculars allow the robot
        to operate at all times of the day. It has a range of about a
        half-mile in urban areas, more in the open desert. And with the
        ability to carry four 66-mm rockets or six 40-mm grenades, as well as
        an M240 or M249 machine gun, the robots can take on additional duties
        fast, said director John Pike.
        \_ The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield
           or at sea.  They will be fought in space, or possibly on top
           of a very tall mountain.  In either case, most of the actual
           fighting will be done by small robots.  And as you go forth
           today remember always your duty is clear:  To build and maintain
           those robots.  Thank you.
        \_ it has begun.  The robots are going to take over the world.
           \_ Don't be silly. The dolphins will do that first.
              \_ Dolphins have been secretly stealing our H07 CH1X in beach
                 waters with their long hard beaks.
           \_ ob: I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
        \_ future wars will be robot vs. robot.
           Smart bullets will try to reduce collateral damage.
           Smart gun systems will try to reduce collateral damage.
           Hackers will be the warriors of the future.
           Video Games are a conspiracy to create the new breed of warriors.
           The internet will be used to help fight wars.
           \_ The Internet was *DESIGNED* to help fight wars
              \_ No silly, Al Gore invented it to start the dot-com economy.
                \_ eat shit
                   \_ Sorry, I don't live in the dorms anymore.
           \_ OOOOHHHHH AAAAUHHHHhhhhhhhhhh...*geek splooge*
        \_ Monkey hate robot
2004/11/23 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:35047 Activity:insanely high
11/23   Ok, right-wingers.  Vang claims he was shot at first, and returned
        fire as if his life were in danger.  Given the repeated statements
        of how eager you are to take the law into your own hands, how is
        Vang's reaction any different than what you would have done?
        \_ he is justified if true, he also assumed they had more
           than one gun if they are hunters
                \_ Actually in order to claim self-defense, he needs
                   to meet several requirements:
                   1. Did he create the situation?
                   2. Did he have an honest and actual belief that
                      there was a danger to his life?
                   3. Was his belief reasonable? [This test is tougher
                      than it looks]
                   4. Was the threat imminent?
                   5. Was his response appropriate?
                   If any of these questions are answered in the negative
                   then he doesn't get self defense. He may get imperfect
                   self defense, if he didn't create the situation, had
                   and honest and actual belief, but his belief was not
                   \_ Everyone agrees it is unreasonable and not totally
                      self-defense, but many people secretly wish they could
                      do what he did.
                      \_ And for that we have federal pound-me-in-the-ass
        \_ Quoth investigator report (via Reuters): "He fired back, hitting
           the man who shot at him and then pursued the others, shooting them
           and another couple who showed up later riding an all-terrain
           vehicle..."  It seems that whether or not the hunters fired the
           first shot, Vang's claim to self-defense ended at some point
           through the killings.
           \_ Yeah, you think the rest of them wouldn't have "defended"
              their dead friend if Vang just walked off?
              \_ "...and then pursued the others, shooting them..."
                 \_ Let's try this again.  A group of thugs shoots at you.
                    You decide to return fire and kill the one that shot
                    at you.  What makes you think the others would not have
                    continued shooting at you?
                    \_ Uhh.. they were running away?
                    \_ Uhh.. they weren't all armed?
                       \_ Yes.  The rest were hunting with their fists.
                          \_ Why don't you read the article?
                             \_ What article? Do I need to go to The Free
                                Republic and track it down?
                                \_ I'm just suggesting that maybe you should
                                   read some articles about the subject we're
                                   discussing, rather than just shooting your
                                   mouth off.
                                   \_ "shooting" my mouth off, eh? You are
                                      a funny guy.
                          \_ Wow.  According to the sheriff's report, there
                             was only one firearm amongst those that were shot.
                             Those lying sheriff bastards!  Obviously it was
                             all a conspiracy!  Well, that or you're a
                             blithering idiot.
                             \_ By the time the sheriff got there, the other
                                hunters had hidden the rest of their guns,
                                some of which might not have been legal to
                                own.  It would make for a nicer story too,
                                if that damn gook shot and killed a bunch
                                of unarmed white christian males.
                             \_ The sheriff in a white southern county
                                is just going to lie to cover up for
                                high school drinking buddies. Especially
                                over some dink.
                                \_ I think my theory about you being a
                                   blithering idiot is far more likely.
                                   \_ Well, WI is south of Canada. - !pp
                    \_ OK, let's take this real slow now.  The rest of the
                       hunters were running away, and Vang pursued them and
                       then shot them (as in it's kind of difficult to pursue
                       someone who's standing and fighting).  Bye bye self-
                          \_ Depends on what happened. If they attacked
                             Vang and he fought back, then pursued them
                             b/c he was afraid they would come back and
                             kill him, he has a valid self defense argument.
                             Most juries in this country don't really care
                             if you over-react (see Gotez from NY in 86).
                       \_ maybe they just want to spread out into the woods
                          and then hunt Vang down.  Also who knows
                          what firearms they carry in their ATV.
                          \_ Do you get your tin foil hats cheaper when you
                             join the tin foil hat of the month club?
                             \_ they fired the first shot.  once that
                                happened you cannot assume those people
                                are sane.
                                \_ In this country, for a crime to be committed
                                   you have to be able to prove intent (in
                                   this case, only provable in the case of the
                                   first guy since he's the only one that
                                   shot).  Ability (which is clearly lacking
                                   since only one was armed when Vang started
                                   shooting), and an attempt to commit a crime
                                   (which is really fucking hard to prove if
                                   they're all running away being chased by a
                                   gun-toting maniac).
                                   \_ Err ... we are arguing whether he is
                                      acting in the belief that he needs
                                      to defend himself, not whether a
                                      crime has been committed.  Remember
                                      the Halloween case where a Japanese
                                      exchange student was killed because
                                      the shooter thought he was a threat?
                                      \_ Yes and no.  The case can be argued
                                         for the first (alleged) shooter.  But
                                         in the absence of wrongdoing on the
                                         part of the others, proving that he
                                         had self-defense as a motivator is not
                                         very likely to carry much water.
                                      \_ Actually, the question is not whether
                                         Vang believes he needs to defend
                                         himself, but rather whether Vang can
                                         *reasonably* believe he needs to
                                         defend himself.
                                         \_ White person shoots unarmed Asian:
                                            Asian guy shoots armed White guy:
                                            not reasonable.
                                            Any questions?
                                            \_ Yes.  How does it feel
                                               having your head up your
                                               butt 24/7?
                                               \_ Do you really think it will
                                                  be any other way?  Even if
                                                  Vang really was justified
                                                  and if it was totally
                                                  self-defense, it won't
                                                  matter.  The jury of his
                                                  peers will be white, and
                                                  they're just going to see
                                                  him as some slant-eyed
                                 \_ Yeah, ok.  Does your hat use the heavy
                                   foil or the light foil?  I assume the
                                   heavy foil offers better protection but the
                                   light is more comfortable.
        \_ but he was called names...
        \_ Nice troll.
           \_ Don't ilyas my thread.
        \_ It should be easy to verify that the hunter fired a shot. Has
           that been verified?
           \_ How would that be easy to verify?  Ask the dead witnesses?
              \_ First, there is a live witness. Second, it's easy to tell
                 if a gun was fired. There should be a round or pellets or
                 something evident.
                 \_ I'm still trying to figure out how the presence of
                    a round or pellets will determine who shot first.
                    \_ I want to know if he fired *AT ALL*. Has this been
        \_ The US Army trained its soldier well.
           \_ California National Guard. Man, theyshould send this guy to
              Iraq, instead of hunting deer and white folks, hunt Al Qaidans.
        \_ Can't we just ignore facts and assume what probably happened:
           Vang was ticked, the white people didn't shoot first but shot
           off their mouths, then Vang killed all the white people.
           \_ It was private property.  So really the correct rendition
              is he was trespassing, the may have impolitely asked him
              to leave, he lost it and murdered them.
              \_ How do you "politely" ask someone to leave after you've
                 shot at them?  Vang was already on his way out.  The
                 property was also adjacent to public property, and the
                 property line wasn't marked.
                 \_ Someone might have shot into the air. Like the old
                    "git off my property" hillbilly stereotype.
                    \_ So someone tells you to leave their private property,
                       and as you're calmly walking away trying to ignore
                       their racial slurs, one of them shoots their gun.
                       Vang, realistically, acted to defend himself.
        \_ Let's say someone shot at Vang, Vang blew him away, other guys
           started coming, Vang thought they were coming to nail him, Vang
           nailed them first, all their guns were hidden, Vang didn't chase
           anyone down.  Anyways, I still believe the Vang got ticked and
           anyone down.  Anyways, I still believe that Vang got ticked and
           shot everyone theory more.
        \_ Hello armchair judges. Here's the fact. The outcome of the
           Vang trial has nothing to do with evidence and facts. It has
           everything to do with the jury and how the cops conducted
           their search. The OJ trial proved just that.
           \_ So is the jury all going to be Hmong and they'll find that the
              sheriff made racist remarks about Hmong on tape and Vang will
              go free and say he's looking for the real killer with every
              deer he shewts?
        \_ They were running away to get their guns, so Vang has to cut
           them down before they got more guns and more people. Shit,
           he killed one, but then they called for help and he sees a
           another vehicles with a bunch of reinforcements, what is he
           supposed to do? He's outnumbered at least 10 to 1, like
           Rambo, the man.
           \_ "Shot for vagrancy in Jerkwater, USA..."
              \_ "But the man kept pushing Sir...They drew first blood,not me."
           \_ Those other hunters should have joined a server with
              Friendly Fire off!
           for a MUCH MORE detailed police report
           \_ Wow, this IS detailed.  Thanks!
        \_ How stupid can you get?
           (1) 15 people in the hunting party but they only brought one
               gun...are they going to share it or something?
               They are either very stupid or lying.
           (2) Though unarmed, they start name-calling
               "chink,gook,fucking asian" to this guy holding
               a semi-automatic rifle. Uh. That's really smart. Duh.
           (3) Call more of your idiotic, unarmed ATV-riding friends
               on the radio, so they can come by to escalate the situation
               and make Vang even more scared and reactionary
           Conclusion: white "hunters" deserved to die for being stupid
           but Vang is the idiot who will have to go to jail for falling
           into their stupid trap.
           This is what happened: they see Vang on the platform, they call
           up to him: "hey you fucking chink, get out of our tree. You
           damn gooks are always trespassing". Then they radio their white
           friends, tell them to come over immediately because "we caught
           a chinaman on our property." Then the rest of the mob arrives,
           surrounds Vang, starts screaming, yelling, cursing at
           him saying: "fucking kick your ass, gook", "you fucking chink",
           "get the fuck off our property before we fuck you up, chinaman"
           Now Vang, being a Man, who has Pride, doesn't get off the
           property "fast enough", so white-hunter fires a warning shot
           at him. Vang, who is already pissed because (1) he didn't get to
           hunt (2) they call him racial slurs (3) they have him outnumbered
           (4) his pride is hurt (5) he's been wronged so many times in the
           past and just swallowed his pride, and now (6) his life is in
           real danger, lashes out and fires like a real soldier and hunter.
           Then a 2nd wave of even more shitheads show up on ATVs which
           just escalate the danger, he's outnumbered 15-to-1 by
           racist whites, who are hunters who would reasonably have
           guns, who have threatened him, so he defends himself
           (defend in military/moral/emotional, but not legal-sense)
           And he at least got some hunting done for the day.
           \_ What the fuck?
        \_ right.. the poor minority victim was called bad names.  Too
           bad there is no death penalty in Wi, the taxpayers will have
           pay for housing this asshole.  All of the facts - deer stand,
           scope, number of shots, position of victims, ammunition,
           etc. - indicate this guy flipped.
           \_ Read the link.  Use for password.
           \_ We should let Ilya torture him to death.  That'd teach him!
        \_ Lucky this guy have a gun.  Otherwise he would probably be
           beaten to death like Vincent Chin.
        \_ This guy lives the pro-gun dream, defending himself against
           the odds with his rifle, and the motd right-wing turns on him.
           It's shameful.
2004/11/22-23 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35025 Activity:low
11/22   The Hmong People in the U.S.
        \_ Hmong people Among people.
        \_ So, um, I'm curious. Does the rice man wear glasses? Did he
           wear glasses when he threw the ilyas-like tantrum?
           \_ He ruined hunting for everybody!
              \_ He has ruined the reputation of the Hmong people
                 for generations to come.
              \_ Maybe he just descided to hunt the most dangerous game...
        \_ I guess McVeigh was the U.S. people in teh U.S.
2004/11/15-16 [Reference/Military] UID:34910 Activity:high 75%like:34945
11/15   What's better, Platoon or Full Metal Jacket.
        \_ "lean forward and choke yourself"
        \_ from FMJ: "This is my rifle, this is my gun (gestures at dick),
           this is for fighting, this is for fun (gestures at dick again)."
           \_ "Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy from 2,000 meters. And that
               guy at the University of Texas shot(those students) from
               a thousand feet away. What did they have in common? THey're
               both Marines!"
               \_ "Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and
                   fuck my sister."
            \_ "We are here to help the Vietnamese because inside every
                Gook is an American trying to get out."
        \_ Neither. Watch BAT21.
           \_ Who said that?  Who the fuck said that?!  Who's the slimy
              little communist shit twinkle toed cock sucker who just
              signed his own death warrant?!
2004/11/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:34884 Activity:nil
11/13   Apparently it's illegal for convicted felons to own body armor
        (Title 18 U.S.C. 931(a)), but how about non-felons?
        \_ It is legal. But if you commit a crime it will double the
           penalty. This is in response to a San Francisco officer
           killed in the line of duty in a shoot-out against a body armor
           wearing criminal. Try to avoid stuff made of Zylon, and remember
           they are warranteed for 5 years.  Look up NIJ Level protection.
2004/11/13-14 [Reference/Military] UID:34877 Activity:very high
11/13   I thought the purpose of the Marines is to get on the boat and
        land on the coast to secure a place for barge, equipments and
        for more reinforcements, like exactly what they did in D-Day.
        Why are there so many Marines inside Iraq, fighting non-water
        related battles?
        \_ marines do the initial battle to clear up for the
           army to maintain and hold ground.
        \_ Marines are the toughest of the regular services. Their
           physical standards are held to a higher standard and their
           boot camps is longer than the typical Army GI. BTW, D-Day
           had more Army units doing amphibious assaults.
                \_ That still doesn't answer the question, though. !op
                   \_ if you need it spelled out... marines > army
                      \_ Except for the airborne. -ausman
                         \_ Ah.  People who get paid to run up beaches at
                            machine guns vs. people who get paid to jump out
                            of planes on top of machine guns.  Great.  -John
           \_ marine(adj)-- 1 a : of or relating to the sea <marine life>
              b : of or relating to the navigation of the sea : NAUTICAL
              <a marine chart> c : of or relating to the commerce of the
              sea : MARITIME <marine law> d : depicting the sea,
              seashore, or ships <a marine painter>
        \_ On perhaps a related note, does each branch of the military
           (navy, army, airforce, etc) have a documented responsibilities?
           I mean, what's the difference between them, and where is it
           actually written out and defined?
           \_ Yes you guessed it, they have turf wars all the time. -- ilyas
           \_ The Marine Corp and Navy have their own air forces as
              does the Army to a lesser degree. Every force except
              for the marines has their own ground troops: the Marines
              are supposed to be the Navy's ground troops, but don't
              tell a squid that. I don't think the Air Force has too
              many ships, but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that
              the Army does. -ausman
              \_ Army's only ships are contract prepositioning ships.
                 \_ Not quite -- .  You can see
                    an ACoE ship in SF Bay sometimes.  -John
        \_ As someone pointed out above, the Marines are simply better
           and more comprehensively trained and better equipped for
           rapid deployment than most Army units. One can view the name
           as largely historical and the fact that they remain a separate
           branch as a testament to their effectiveness and perhaps
           more importantly the PR and political skills of their leadership
           over the years. The classical amphibious assault itself is
           arguably an obsolete tactic - the last significant US amphibious
           assault I can think of is McArthur's landing in Inchon in
           late 1950, during the Korean War. In addition, the Marines
           are generally less specialized than the more elite Army units
           such as Airborne and the Rangers - unlike the Army, they have
           their own fixed-wing ground-support aircraft, their own UAVs,
           their own armour (including M1 tanks) and can more easily execute
           a "combined arms" operation (up to a certain scale, of course)
           on their own. This makes them an attractive option for military
           planners in difficult but constrained engagements such as in
           Fallujah. This of course, has its price - Marines are often
           disporpotionately represented in the casualty figures when
           serious fighting takes place. -pvg
        \_ As I recall, the Marines were originally for boat-to-boat
           combat.  I could be wrong though.
           \_ They were just a warship's military contingent.  They guarded
              ships and watched prisoners, so the whole ship-to-ship thing
              kind of naturally evolved.  And instead of having to carry
              a bunch of seasick army guys around to go beat up on some S.
              Pacific natives, it was easier to just have your on-board
              security detail do it.  That's where the beach invasion force
              bit comes from; because warships were also the first on the
              scene in faraway places, marines were usually the guys you
              had guard colonists and embassies, just because they were
              easiest and quickest to get there; that's also the reason why
              they're the most mobile bunch, and it's historically why you'll
              be more likely to find them blowing up stuff in faraway places
              than the regular army.  -John
              \_ To get mildly pedantic, historically, marines were not
                 so much a security unit but  what the name
                 implies - a ship-borne group of soldiers. Their 17th
                 century Royal Navy name - "Maritime Regiment of Foot"
                 pretty much tells the story as does the "Gibraltar"
                 on Royal Marines insignia, a reference to a 1704 battle
                 where their role was neither primarily that of ship-to-ship
                 combat nor protective detail. -pvg
                 \_ "security" includes preventing guys with swords from
                    climbing on your boat :-)  -John
        \_ so based on the above they should change the name Marines -/
           since it has nothing to do with water nowadays
           \_ Absolutely! And while at it, one might decimate all instances
              of such wildly inappropriate naming! Sure, Airborne jumps from
              planes but when's the last time there was a significant airborne
              operation? Rename the 10th Mountain, all units designated
              "cavalry" and british fusiliers, grenadiers, etc. Wait, and
              the word "decimate" doesn't really mean "reduce to a 10th of"
              so excise that from dictionaries as well. And stop calling
              computers and other equipment "digital" since it has nothing
              to do with fingers nowadays. -pvg
2004/11/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34839 Activity:moderate
11/11   As far as I know, a sniper's bullet is bigger than 1 cm, so it should
        be visible with, say, 40 GHz radar.  So it should be possible to have
        a radar scanner that tracks the bullet back and tells the exact location
        of the sniper, at least in theory.  This doesn't sound all that hard
        to me.  Why the hell don't we have such technology deployed in Iraq?
        is there a technical problem I'm missing here?
        \_ An interesting discussion about this:
        \_ Sniper/Bullet Track radar has been around for awhile.  I'd guess
           it's not deployed in Fallujah for several reasons, but mainly the
           sensitivity/complexity of the equipment isn't very compatible with
           the conditions of a mobile assualt (too time consuming to set up,
           to much likelihood of rough handling).  Also, the urban environment
           is pretty claustrophobic and my not be conducive to effective radar
           system deployment.
           \_ Odd.  I'd assume that it is precisely in urban areas where
              snipers are the most dangerous.  It's probably relatively
              easy to hunt down a sniper in a wide open space.
              \_ Easy?  That really depends on teh terrain.  There are many
                 accounts of snipers doing terrible damage in open terrian
                 where there's no cover, etc.  Note: USEFUL != USABLE.
        \_ I saw something similar on Tactical to Practical on the
           History Channel two years ago. They already have a working
           implementation that uses the high speed camera to capture
           bullet traces, in real time. Why it's not deployed in
           Iraq, my guess is probably due to mass production/
           copy-right/law issues than the technical reason.
           \_ There are a number of systems, at least one of which uses
              multiple units to triangulate the shot's origin.  The problem
              with every single one of these is that they're (a) unwieldy,
              (b) fragile, and (c) require you to be looking at least in the
              general direction of where the bullet is coming from--not always
              practical in a combat situation.  -John
              \_ tell us about zhe Elite Churman Sniperscutze, John
                 \_ Difficult, yermom's playing with it.
2004/11/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34827 Activity:high
        Sniper in Falluja stopped 150 marines, surviving two 500 pound bombs,
        35 155mm shells, 10 shots from Abrams tanks and 30000 rounds of
        automatic rifle.  Reminds me of Full Metal Jacket and Enemies
        at the Gate.
        \_ Damn! They missed their chance to kill Kim Jung Il's panther!
        \_ I think the Marines have more ammo than they have sniper guys.
           \_ Snipers don't exactly burn through ammo, you know.  Anyway, the
              point is that 1 guy can tie up 150 guys in unfriendly territory
              \_ Sorry, badly phrased.  Related to the "not keeping anything
                 secret from the enemy" thread earlier, the US military
                 approach has always been "drop enormous amount of stuff on it
                 and if it still moves, drop more stuff on it."  Doesn't look
                 like they got the guy, but each good sniper whacked is less
                 replaceable than 30,000 rounds of ammo.  -John
        \_ That reminds me of a scene from "Platton", where one young woman
        \_ That reminds me of a scene from "Platoon", where one young woman
           hiding in a building with a rifle killed several marines before she
           was found and killed.
           \_ You mean Full Metal Jacket.
              \_ No I've never seen that.
                 \_ ya, I agree w/ pp. I've never seen Platoon, but know
                    theres a scene like that in FMJ.
                    \_ Ok, has anyone SEEN Platoon?
                        \_ Yeah there's one at yermom's house right now.
                 \_ You mean FMJ.
        \_ all it takes for the terrorist to win is to snipe one marine
           a day in all major cities. Snipe one, blend into population,
           repeat the next day. Such is urban warfare.
           \_ If you won't have sex with me, it will mean that the
              terrorists have won.
           \_ I don't think that would produce a 'win' although it will
              kill some Marines. May as well snipe one citizen a day
              in Washington, D.C. Oh, that's been done.
        \_ I was watching documentary the other day, and it says
           that during the war of 1814, the British commander
           was killed by a US sniper, which saved the day for the
           \_ The War of 1814?  Oooh...
              \_ I think it's 1812.
           \_ I think the same thing happened in the Canadian-American War.
              \_ no, it was a brit.  by the time he was shot and killed
                 he already led his british army to burn US capital down.
                 madison, who was kind of a nerd, was forced to run away.
                 \_ Chicom troll has taken history lesson!
                    \_ I thought bad brits only burned china capital
                       down.  didn't know they burnt US capital down
                       too. hahaha!   US made Britain its maid today
                       while dxp kicked brits out of HK and made Iron
                       Lady cry "He's so cold hearted!"  Is that
                       good revenge?   - chicom toad
                       \_ Are you Hong-Kongese?  Do you understand the effect
                          ...... oh never mind.
2004/11/7-8 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34735 Activity:kinda low
11/7    Man commits suicide at ground zero:
        \- Does anybody find it odd these people dont er "take some people
           with them" ... or i guess the peopel inclined to do this kind of
           thing dont have that kind of personality.
           \_ They're an Army Of One
           \_ What about that Japanese guy who cut a bunch of people with
              a samurai sword in a supermarket in Irvine before he was shot?
              \_ liberals are crazy           -patriotic conservative troll
                \_ This was a patriotic conservative crazy Japanese samurai
                   sword Irvine supermarket suicide warrior.  -John
        \_ How many more to go?
2004/11/5 [Reference/Military] UID:34694 Activity:very high
11/4    Can anyone give me some tips on how to, where at, and how much it costs
        to train with guns in the state of California?  I want to try the most
        common pistols, rifles, shotguns, and semi-automatic assault rifles --
        probably one lesson a month in some new set of weapons.
        I feel this should not be strictly a hobby of the right.  Also, does
        anyone have a recommendation for an all-around, reliable semi-automatic
        assault rifle and pistol?  Thanks! -liberal (Yes, I'm totally serious.)
        \_ Best place to train (in LA)
           active LAPD SWAT officers are the instructor, cheap courses,
           most available to civilians as well. Most of the rest are all
           overpriced (4 figures+) with instructors who have never been in
           gunfight. Scott Reitz has been in 15 (he's a certified court
           consultant on use of force as well as consultant to many movies)
        \_ Y'all shuh ya safe shootun wit uz dum raid naik hiks?  Wez not two
           braight butt wez kin smail ah liberul fer milez!  Scuuze meh butt
           ah gotta gow fuck da pig!
        \_ For pistols, Beretta 92(9mm), USP9 (9mm), Smith and Wesson 5903
           (9mm) are all pretty decent weapons that are pretty simple to
           operate and comfortable to shoot.  When you've gotten comfortable
           with a 9mm, you may want to try more aggressive calibers like
           .40, 10mm, .45, etc.  As a side note, I believe that most
           competition weapons are either .22 (a very small bullet) or .45.
           Many of the .45's that I've shot have a _hair trigger_ so
           definitely be careful -- always ask the rangemaster about a new
           weapon that you've never used before.            -mice
           \_ .45 hair trigger? Try Sigs in single action mode next time.
              Find a friend - most ranges don't rent out Sigs. -jlee
              \_ Jackson Arms in South SF did at one point, give them a call.
              \_ My 1945 Remington-Rand most definitely does not have a hair
                 trigger.  -John
                 \_ My brother-in-law had an Argentinian 1911 which fired
                    with only a very light touch once it was cocked.  I've
                    never had a tighter group than I had with that.    -mice
                    \_ Well mine kicks like a mule and is all over the place,
                       but that's probably because I can't hit the side of
                       a barn.  -John
                       \_ John, I think your 1911 is broken.  I am almost
                          certain you have stronger hands than me, and I can
                          handle a 1911 just fine.  -- ilyas
                          \_ Ilya, re-read.  I am a miserable shot.  Period.
                             \_ No I meant about kicking.  I don't blame you
                                for shooting badly, that depends wildly on
                                the tolerances of the 1911.  The milspec ones
                                are so loose they rattle. -- ilyas
                       \_ Heh -- the kick wasn't so bad on that weapon.  I
                          played around with shooting it one handed, and the
                          kick was manageable.  As for barn hitting, well,
                          my claims about a tight group are rather relative
                          to my own (unimpressive) skill level.     -mice
              \_ Actually, I rather like the hair trigger -- I'm just pointing
                 out that it's best to ask the rangermaster for information
                 out that it's best to ask the rangemaster for information
                 about a weapon if it's the first time you've used a weapon
                 and you're still relatively new the hobby.    -mice
                 and you're still relatively new to the hobby.    -mice
              \_ cf "*Many* of the .45's" !=  "*All* of the .45's", etc.
                 \_ In my personal experience, hair-triggers were the
                    exception, not the rule, among .45's.  I remember
                    being rather surprised at how sensitive the trigger
                    was on that Argentinian when I shot it.  Revolvers, on
                    the other hand, when set to single action?  Hair.
                    Trigger. -geordan
                    \_ No, it's not the rule, and it wasn't my intention to
                       imply that.  Thanks for clarifying.        -mice
           \_ I actually started out with revolvers.  Less to worry about,
              just shove the bullets in and pull the trigger.
        \_ I'd report you to Ashcroft, but it looks like he's retiring.
        \_ To try out "stuff", there are loads of pistol ranges (STFW).  Many
           have different kinds of pistols for rent, so try out various
           calibers and see what fits the bill.  Concerning rifles, I
           remember going to a "federally designated shooting area" (basically
           a big open field full of hayseeds popping off ammo from picnic
           tables) near Chico; they were very friendly and informative about
           various guns.  To get the feel of a rifle, you can pick up a
           Russian SKS for about 50 bucks.  Go to a gun shop, preferably a
           well-lit, reputable looking one, and chat with the people there,
           you may be surprised at how helpful they are.  -John
           \- make sure you wear your united states of canada/jesusland
              tshirt. --psb
                \_ You'd be surprised.  A lot of the guys running shooting
                   ranges only care about one thing, do you support their
                   idea of the 2nd amednment.  Being at a gun range asking
                   for gun advice makes them like you, cause you probably do.
           \_ Thanks!  Two more questions:  About how much should I expect to
              spend at a gun range as a first-timer, and how long is it?
              \_ If you live in the Bay Area, there are a number of good ranges
                 or clubs that you can check out.  I've found that, for an
                 indoor pistol range, Target Masters West is very, very good.
                 The staff is knowledgeable and friendly, and selection of
                 rentable firearms is decent.  You'll need to bring a friend
                 if you don't bring your own firearm.  Cost?  Well, $8 per
                 hour for most weapons, $10 for a lane for an hour, plus ammo:
                 for a nine millimeter, figure about $8/50 rounds, for a
                 .40 or .45 closer to $12/50 rounds.  So, perhaps around $50
                 or so.                -mice
                 \_ And 50 rounds goes a lot faster than you'd think.  Ammo
                    is where the big costs.  Think about buying some beforehand
                    if you know what caliber you want to shoot. -aspo
              \_ Found this:
                   I recommend taking someone along to show you the basics
                   and safety-type stuff if it's your first time.  If you're
                   serious, I think it's a good idea to take a gun safety
                   course (contact your local cops).  -John
                   \_ I agree.  Get someone who knows how to shoot to show
                      you the ropes.  You probably do know someone, ask
                      around and you may be surprised. -aspo
                   \_ I don't know anyone who already own guns, so can I learn
                      the basics from a safety class?  - not op
                        \_ "basics" = rtfm to find out how the safety works,
                           never ever point it at someone you don't intend to
                           shoot, including yourself, always assume a gun is
                           loaded, never keep a round in the chamber, buy a
                           trigger lock (ca. 25 bucks), use it, keep ammo and
                           guns locked up from children, know how much ammo
                           fits in a magazine, load it, point it, slowly
                           in/exhale (whatever works for you), squeeze your
                           hand like you would an orange, and occasionally it
                           will go bang and a piece of lead will fly out the
                           front real fast.  There is nothing to be scared of.
                           Just think of it like a big power tool.  Range
                           staff will usually show you what to do, don't be
                           afraid to tell them that you're completely new at
                           this.  -John
                 \_ I'm not scared of the guns so much as the ammo. I'm scared
                    that if I drop a bullet it might go off (is that possible?)
                    Or a "bad load" might explode (down the road, y'know). -!pp
                    \_ In order for a dropped bullet to go off, it would need to
                       fall, primer first, on something sturdy and sharp, in just
                       the right way.  Don't worry about it.  I don't think you
                       have to worry about modern ammo exploding on you either.
                       The biggest problem with ammo is some bullets simply not
                       firing (something wrong with the powder, etc), at which
                       point you have to clear out the resulting jam.  Honestly,
                       the biggest possibility of injury at a gun range, if you
                       are non-insane is firing a calibre that's a little too
                       big for you to handle, so the firearm injures you during
                       recoil (some people I know hurt their hands shooting
                       .44 mag revolvers, or their shoulders by not bracing
                       properly when shooting shotguns).  And by injury here I
                       mean 'ow, that smarts,' not 'ow, my bone is broken.'
                         -- ilyas
                    \_ common injuries w/ weapons that have slides, e.g.
                       most semi-automatics, is careless placement of non
                       trigger hand.  the slide moves back and can slice
                        \_ also watch the trigger hand, depending on the size
                           of the grip and placement of your hand...
                       of a nice chunk.  keep hand away or in a proper
                       supporting grip as they teach.
                           if you want to learn to shoot, practice patience
                       rather than seeing how many rounds you can squeeze
                       off in a session.  a good shooter i knew would go
                       to the range for a half hour to shoot 10 rounds
                       and then go home, as training.
                           you won't get a "bad load" unless you take
                       a hand-loaded round from some nutcase.
2004/10/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:34381 Activity:high
10/27   I have a S&W .38 long nose.  It's fairly accurate to 20, 25 yrds.  I
        would like to purchase an underbarrel laser light for it.  Does any
        of the motd gun users have a good suggestion?  Ok thx.
        \_ May I ask why you want one?  I mean it's alright to want one,
           I am just curious if you have any actual need for one.  Like
           do you think it will help you shoot better? -- ilyas
           \_ I probably don't have any real need for one, being that "real"
              is supposedly combat situations only.  However, at the local
              unofficial range there is a contest for draw-and-fire shooting
              which the sight supposedly would help with.
              \_ I don't think the laser would help me shoot better.  My
                 bottleneck is my hands not my eyes. -- ilyas
        \_ surefire.  surefire.  surefire.
           \_ Why a flashlight over a laser sight?
        \_ Whoa, I just went and tried out my .45 (first handgun in about 12
           years) and let's just say that if I ever get mugged, I hope there's
           about 30 of them, in a very widely spread and randomly distributed
           crowd.  How do you actually _hit_ anything shooting directly
           from the draw?  -John
           \_ That's why we practice from the draw.  You probably can't do it
              at an official range.
           \_ get a shutgun, and saw off the barrel a bit.
           \_ Weaver-stance
           \_ so, like, why didn't you get a 9mm
              \_ Because 9mm is not THE STANDARD. -- 45 ACP #1 fan
             \_ Because I'm already getting my dad's army SIG P210, because
                I like the look & feel of the .45, because it makes a BIG
                BANG, and because 9mm is not THE STANDARD.  And I may get
              _ a .50 Desert Eagle sometime down the road.  -John
                \_ why the fascination iwith a gun that costs $1/bullet to
                   practice.  I've shot DE .44 and ruger .44 (revolver) and
                   found it sufficient "machoness".  If i really wanted to
                   push it, ther'es the 30.06 handgun, the .44 derringer and
                   a whole bunch of black powder snaplock alternatives.
                \_ .50 DE Mark XIX are not CA Legal. But you can get a .44 DE
                    and swap out the barrel.
                    \_ Good thing I'm not in CA then.  All non-full auto
                       weapons are legal here; tradeoff is that places to
                       shoot them are very limited.  -John
                       \_ huh? don't you live in Switzerland?  I thought
                          all adult male citizens were required by law to
                          have a fully automatic rifle for the militia.
                          \_ Well all the ones that couldn't get a section 8
                             to avoid spending 18 weeks doing pushups in the
                             mud while some farm boy career failure yells at
                             you.  And there are plenty of shooting ranges,
                             but you only get to use "ordnance" weapons,
                             i.e. models that are, or were at some point,
                             standard army issue.  -John
                       \_ Oh yeah?  I got a friend who is a contractor in
                          Iraq,He has fully auto matic pistols and a big penis!
                          \_ Phul auto matic pistol is teh gay.
                \_ DAMN YOU!  I WANT A P210!  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!! -- ilyas
           \_ How about the .50?
        \_ seriously, why the flashlight?  What advantage does a flash light
           give you to hit the target.  Anyone there recommend a laser sight
           brand?  Thanks
2004/10/26-27 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34366 Activity:high
10/26   Awesome.  Children's puppet show encourages massacre.
        \_ I love You, You love me
           We'll murder the Zionist Enemy...
        \_ that's hilarious, sad it's true.. sheesh..
           \_ If your livelihood was an olive grove, maybe you'd want to shoot
              the people ripping it out.
              \_ Oh please.  Did you catch the palestinians were using the
                 trees to hide rocket launchers?
                 \_ I knew that, but the people firing rockets from olive
                    groves are not the same people who live/work there.  The
                    Israeli Army's distinct lack of sympathy for innocent
                    farmers is not exactly winning them friends.
                    \_ And how would you suggest an army deal with this
                       situation?  Ask them to stop?
                       \_ Look, if they feel the need to destroy an olive grove
                          for security reasons, that's OK, but you need to pay
                          them a fair-market price if you're going to take away
                          their means of earning a living.  From what I've
                          heard they just send in the buldozers and say
                          'tough shit'.
                          \_ Did you know that if the police destroy your
                             property while pursuing a suspect, etc. they are
                             not liable for damages?  Sounds like you don't
                             know much about established law.
                          \_ From what you've heard?  Still reading dailykos?
                             Or is that the PLO website?
                          \_ Wow, the governments on your planet must be
                             really fucking cool.  Could you kindly cite an
                             actual example of any existing government
                             compensating individuals (in this case
                             non-citizens!) for property destroyed/seized
                             for security reasons within a reasonable
                             timeframe following the destruction/seizure?
                             \_ The US Army routinely reimburses non-citizens
                                for property damage incurred during training.
                                I know this for a fact, since I saw it happen
                                in Panama. -Vet
                        \_ I am unaware of any police department deciding
                           they are in the business of punishing people,
                           that is a matter for our correctional system.
                           \_ If the army flattened your house while persuing
                              terrorists in this country, you would probably
                              be reimbursed but it isn't guaranteed.  If your
                              property was being used to hide weapons and you
                              didn't report it and the military destroyed your
                              house, tough shit.
                              \_ Actually, you probably wouldn't be reimbursed,
                                 even in the case where you were just an
                                 innocent bystander.
                                 \_ There's no need to speak hypothetically
                                    here.  One word: Waco.
                                    \_ But they were religious nutters so they
                                       don't have any rights.  Just because
                                       Reno could have had Koresh picked up
                                       in town when he made shopping trips,
                                       usually alone, twice a week.
                              \_ yea, easy for you to say.  report it, and
                                 the next day, you will be killed by those
                                 bastards for "collaborating with the
2004/10/23-24 [Reference/Military] UID:34308 Activity:moderate
10/23   How do fighter jets "escort" a civilian plane exactly?
        \_ They get real close to it, keep a lock on it, and let the
           pilot know any funny bussiness means kablowie.
           \_ I was under the impression they fly up to them and say
              "w3 pwn j00!!"
        \_ or, if doing a protective escort, make it clear that others
           are not to fuck with the civilian plane.  there's also the
           guidance escort where the civilian plane is shown where to go
           When foreign acrobatic squadrons come into the US, they may
           be unfamiliar with how things work in US airspace or not
           the avionics required by the FAA.
2004/10/21 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:34275 Activity:kinda low
10/21   Does someone have a link to the Daily Show clip with the "weapons of
        mass destruction program related activities" and Dubya using words to
        save the day?  I accidentally deleted my copy.  I notice there are no
        more clips in /csua/tmp/dailyshow.
        \_ if you email me the date i can help you out - danh
2004/10/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34035 Activity:very high
10/11   Regarding the Sadr City cash-for-arms 5-day program that began today
        (for which Iraqis will receive $150 US for each AK-47), do you think
        they'll be turning in rusted weapons for cash and it will be played up
        politically; will it be a real disarmament; or where in between these
        \- This is sort of fun to review: ~psb/MOTD/GunBuyBack
        \- This is sort of fun to review: ~psb/MOTD/IraqGunBuyBack
           \_ I'm not sure I understand your reference to Year of Living
              Dangerously, though it tickles me pink to think of you and mkb
              cooking up a guns-for-ca$h scheme. --erikred
              \-YLD shows that people are motivated by more than
                pecuniary factors. you may wish to read:
        \- they're going to get $150 and buy 3 AK-47s at $50 each from Iran,
           Libya, etc. It's gonna get popular!
           \-the possibility of arbitrage and the fact that exposes to light
             the arms smuggle path is dicussed in the thread.
           \_ I wouldn't want to be the guy driving the truck with the 4000
              AK47s in it over the border from Iran or Syria.  It's not worth
              the risk some trigger happy pilot will blow up me and my truck
              from 5 miles away and I'll be dead before the sound wave of
              the missile reaches me.
              \_ truck?  just use a donkey cart, with a kid or two on top.
2004/10/4-6 [Science/Physics, Reference/Military] UID:33922 Activity:high
10/4    Photon Torpedos anyone? (
        \_ A photon is not matter.  However, they *have* used antimatter
           weapons in trek.
           \_ m = E / c^2 :-)
              \_ No, a photon has no mass.  You just gave the mass-equivalence
                 of a photon.
           \_ Photon Torpedos are based on antimater:
        \_ Nothing will come from this for many decades, if ever.  They should
           be spending that money on something useful like the homeless or
           universal health care.
           \_ You can use the homeless as weapons?  Cool!
        \_ The article mentions positronium, but makes no mention of trying to
           use antihydrogen.  Is there some reason positronium is preferable?
           \_ We have to catch up to the terrorists who are already building
              anti-matter weapons out of unobtanium.
              \_ Why do you hate America?
        \_ Why is this conducted by the Air Force?  Shouldn't it be the Dept of
           Dept of Energy?  Air Force should be working on better planes,
           Energy in a Lawrence lab?  Air Force should be working on better planes,
           better missles, and maybe better space-based weapons, not working on
           something that involves so much fundamental physics.
           \_ The Air Force typically has always held sway over the "cutting
              edge/whiz bang/star trek side" of military tech.
              \_ no.  I know of quite a bit of far-out physics research
                 that gets funded by both the Navy and the Army.  The army
                 spends a lot of money on quantum computing, and you can't
                 get much more star trek than that.
                 \_ My computer told me otherwise this morning.  It was built
                    by the USMC with Marine-Tech(tm).
2004/9/27 [Reference/Military] UID:33788 Activity:nil
9/27    MOTD gun nuts:  Considering buying an M1 Garand.  What's better,
        30-06 or NATO 7.62?  I haven't used 30-06, but if there's no diff,
        that caliber costs about 3 times as much here.  -John
        \_ There is a difference, of course.  30-06 has longer effective
           range, 7.62 can be made a little more accurate, if you are into
           that sort of thing.  In practice, try shooting both, and use
           the largest calibre you can comfortably shoot.  30-06 will kick
           more.  On a slightly unrelated note, isn't an M1 Garand a
           _military_ rifle?  Tsk, tsk, there ought to be a law, deadly
           military-style weapons on our streets, etc. etc.  -- ilyas
           \_ "our" streets? DOesn't John live in Switzerland?
              \_ Amazing that their streets aren't flowing with the blood
                 of non-believers, no?  The M1 is legal in most of the US,
                 btw. -- ilyas
        \_ get a Remington 700 PSS
        \_ I used that in Medal of Honor, it's pretty lousy. I'd prefer
           M16 as it is more accurate and less recoil.
           \_ banned in California
        \_ Hey gun nuts, do your activities damage your hearing?
           \_ muffled ear protection
              \_ Well, I've seen a lot of videos and things where people aren't
                 wearing any ear protection. And somehow I doubt hunters wear
                 any. And I never heard of infantry having ear protection on
                 duty. Too bad silencers are illegal.
                 \_ Don't silencers mess up accuracy? -!gun nut
                    \_ most do.  but they don't have to.  Surefire (makers
                       of high performance flashlights and laser sighting
                       products) now makes a very well designed sound
                       suppressor for the M4 carbine (5.56/.223) which
                       has good acoustic performance, slight improvement
                       on muzzle velocity, and minimal (less than 1 minute
                       of angle) impact on accuracy.
                       \_ I'm reading their marketing articles and they claim
                          that accuracy is improved (tighter groups). The l.t.
                          1 minute of angle referred to point of impact shift.
                          \_ the surefire sound suppressor does both.  --Jon
                          \_ pedantic sidenote: accuracy is the proper term
                             for 1MOA impact on point of aim.  precision would
                             be the proper term for the fact that the shots
                             all end up in a tighter group. --Jon
                       \_ They also describe cases of police officers getting
                          damaged hearing so I guess the answer to my original
                          question was "yes".
                 \_ they may be wearing ear plugs.  also, outdoors shooting
                    is easier on the ears than indoors.
2004/9/23 [Reference/Military] UID:33712 Activity:high
9/23    Dear MOTD gun nuts:  My dad bought an "estate" in the middle of
        bumfuck nowhere.  There are wolves, wildcats and inbred Frenchmen
        roaming the hills.  I'm shopping around for a shotgun for him.
        Looking for something sturdy, not too expensive, with reasonable
        range.  It's not so much for hunting as for "git-the-hayl-off-mah-
        property-ya-varmint".  Not tremendously loud would be a plus. -John
        \_ Big 5 has Mossberg 500, go to for Tactical 00 buckshot
          in 12 guage
        \_ Benellis are nice.  I like the M3. -- ilyas
        \_ Shotguns can be fairly generic. If you want range, look at a long
           barrel. Figure you're loading either birdshot or rock salt, but
           that's not going to help you out past a fairly short range.
           \_ This is my BOOMSTICK!
           \_ Thanks--what's "short"?  He's a crack shot, and the idea
              is to be able to nail something the size of a razorback at
              about 80 feet.  Any particular brands I should be looking at?
        \_ mossberg.  remington.  hell, any reason not to get a bolt action
           rifle in .223 remington and 20inch barrel (varmint size)?
           \- Why is it that you are not getting the Remington 870? --psb
2004/9/14 [Reference/Military] UID:33527 Activity:insanely high
9/14    Is America becoming more like Texas since Bush came to power?
        Except Californians should have stylish, never-fired full-auto
        weapons in a hidden pop-up mount above the driver's side door of
        their Lexus SUVs -- not rusty hunting rifles and pump shotguns on a
        gauche gun rack of a 20-year-old pickup truck.  The Bay Area
        syadmins can have .50 cal desert eagles with laser sight and scope
        on a holster in their cube.  What do you think?
        \_ Desert eagle = teh suk.
           \_ I don't know that I'd got that far, but there are certainly
              better guns out there.
           \_ They do indeed suck. - *owned* one. Only liked Golden Sabre
              not it's own IMI JHP.
           \_ I like it in Max Payne
        \_ If my sysadmin brought a gun to work, I'd have him escorted
           out by the police.
           \_ Why do you hate the 2nd amendment?
              \_ I'm not the pp, but I've worked with armed people who
                 were *really* into guns, and have no problem with it;
                 none of them were sysadmins.  If a *sysadmin* showed up
                 with a gun I'd call the police or get my own gun.
           \_ unless you own the business or are charged with such duties
              by your employer, you should really stfu.
                \_ why should he?  what glorious place to do you work
                   at where it is acceptable to show up armed? - danh
                   \_ Don't quote me on this, but I believe anyone with
                      a CCW (CA grants them) can take a gun to work,
                      unless there are explicit building prohibitions
                      (or its a federal building).  So the answer is:
                      almost any place where people work, probably
                      including where you work. -- ilyas
                      \_ While technically this may be true, most companies
                         have strict policy against this.  They may not be
                         able to prosecute you criminally, but they can still
                         fire your ass and have you escorted from the premises.
                      \_ you "work" at UCLA don't you?  so you lose.
                         \_ And, unlike Diane Feinstein, I don't have
                            a CCW. -- ilyas
                \_ if my coworker or boss had been armed at my last job,
                   someone definitely would have died. - danh
                \_ An armed employee without license to carry said arms
                   is in violation of the law in most states.  As such,
                   it would be obstruction of justice not to report the
                   psycho and have him removed.
                   \_ where did "without license" come into play here?
                      \_ Sorry, so you're suggesting a scenario based on
                         the heretofore nonexistent premise that anyone can
                         carry/display a gun outside of one's own home?
                         \_ Pansy liberal. Once you own a gun, you'll
                            understand. You'll want to carry it everywhere
                            to maximize your investment, and feel its cool,
                            reassuring metal against your skin. Make sure
                            everyone knows you have the gun, otherwise they
                            won't give you the respect you deserve.
                            \_ I love this comment. Thank you MOTD! --aaron
                            \_ Cue SLEDGE HAMMER! theme.
                            \_ You already get the respect you deserve, you
                               pathetic worm.  A gun's not going to make a
                               man out of you.  Your mother should have
                               drowned you at birth.  Your father was right
                               to say you'll never amount to anything. Prove
                               me wrong, pussy! I'll be waiting for you on
                               lawn of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., Washington, DC.
                               I'll be the one getting out of the helicopter.
                                \_ Boy, you're almost as eloquent as the
                                   genius who said he'd get me "kicked out of
                                   the city" if I lived in his neighborhood,
                                   because I stood by the fact that I tend
                                   to speed.  By the way, I'm going shooting
                                   tomorrow afternoon.  -John
                                   \_ Absolutely capital, John.  Try not to
                                      shoot your sense of humor off-- oh,
                                      wait, you don't _have_ a sense of
                \_ that's nice.  do you bring your gun to work?  no you
                   do not.  now fuck off.
                                   \_ I think you've been trolled.
                                        \_ And it was worth every penny -John
                   \_ ahem.. jkh.. ahem..
                \_ I'm not sure where to inject some sense into this
                   mess, but I think the point being made is that carrying
                   of firearms (except on school campuses) in a business
                   (or a private home for that matter) is up to the owner
                   of said home of business.  But far be it from me to
                   know the minds of others -Jon
                   \_ In a few jobs, it is reasonable to carry a gun to
                      work: Dude ranch guide, wildcatter, back country
                      guide, even 7-11 clerk. But if you carry a gun to
                      your white collar office job, you are going to be
                      seen as a dangerous maniac by your co-workers.
                      \_ again, a matter for your employer to decide.
                         granted, you shouldn't make the decision for
                         your employer by bringing it without discussion.
                         where is your brain?
2004/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:33523 Activity:nil
9/14    I like this quote from the dailycal (About the assualt weapon ban:
        "The 10-year-old law, a major achievement of Sen. Dianne
         Feinstein, D-Calif., outlawed the types of weapons used in the
         2000 Columbine High School shooting." 2000 < 10 years ago...
        \_ were the weapons used in the columbine high school
           shootings legally obtained or not?
           \_ Or... maybe they were >10 years old.
        \_ Next on CNN: Sen. Feinstein (D) proposes to prevent another
           9/11-style terrorist attack by outlawing airplanes.
           \_ When airplanes are outlawed, only outlaws will have airplanes.
        \_ We should get right to the heart of the matter and outlaw all
           criminal behavior.  Then only criminals will commit crimes.
        \_ Are you trying to suggest the ban is a bad idea because it did not
           prevent all of the banned weapons from being used?  People are still
           being murdered, maybe we should repeal murder laws.
        \_ It's kind of like stopping terrorism.  You don't really notice how
           many terrorist acts have been preempted from happening.  Similarly,
           you don't notice how many Columbine like incidents have been
           prevented by the "assault" weapon ban.
                \_ it's like sysadm. You don't know how good the sysadms are
                   until your machines crash.   -underappreciated sysadm
        \_ The pubbies are letting the assault weapons ban lapse so that
           "If America shows uncertainty and weakness in this decade, the
           world will drift toward tragedy." -GW Bush
           (nevermind you will need to go out of CA state to get some ...)
2004/9/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:33471 Activity:very high
9/10    is it true that police deaths from assault weapons have
        gone down significantly since the assault weapons ban
        10 years ago?  thanks. - danh
        \_ This is a statistic listed on, which I have
           no reason to doubt.  My problem is that they don't report other
           interesting statistics like:
           (a) how many police were actually killed by assault weapons
           (b) In what percentage of crimes were assault weapons used
           (c) how many police deaths involving non-assault weapons were
               caused by the ban (by making the criminals choose some other
               weapon), and so on.
           In short, what I feel is missing from this ban, and a lot of
           legislation in general, is a comprehensive study of actual effects
           of the legislation.  Bans are a restriction of liberty and merit
           much more serious deliberation than I feel they are being given.
             -- ilyas
             \_ based on the number of posts you have made in the last 24 hours,
                i command you to read this:
                \_ I d do some work, but I ve been sick. -- ilyas
           \_ did police deaths by assault weapon go down dramatically
              after the sort of assault weapons ban or not?  i guess
              we'll know more about the direct correlation in a year!
              \_ Did you read the url?  Did you read the reply?  Do you know
                 how to read?
        \_ is it just banning fully automatic? If so, it is useless because
           you can't aim a fully automatic anyways due to recoils
           \_ but you can go nuts with it in a crowded school playground!
           \_ Full-auto/3-rd burst are class III weapons anyways. Need
              to be SOT to get one. This ban was NOT a ban on assault
              weapons. But on semi-auto rifles that looked "evil."
              \_ or anything where you fire more than one shot for
                 each trigger pull.
           \_ whoah, good point!  You better alert all the militaries in the
              world about that.
              \_ In the marine sniper school there hangs a plaque listing
                 bullets-spent/kill for normal soldiers (a few hundred
                 thousand) vs snipers (1.3).
                 \_ I'm glad you pointed that out. Now what is a MOA?
                    Better yet, tell me your exp. in the armed forces?
                       Now tell me your exp. being a know-nothing sysadmin
                       who likes to pontificate about politics.
2004/9/10 [Reference/Military] UID:33454 Activity:nil
9/10    The NY Times has a fair and balanced summary (really) of various
        studies of the effect of the assault weapons ban and its loopholes.
2004/9/8 [Reference/Military] UID:33420 Activity:nil
9/8     The thread got nuked, but I am still hoping for a defense of current
        gun control (banning scary looking guns) from someone.  Surely among
        the faithful liberals here on soda _someone_ actually believes this,
        rather than just closing one's eyes to another unsavory thing the
        Democrats push through? -- ilyas
        \_ Ilya, it's not a question of banning guns, or of democrats vs.
           republicans.  Restricting who gets guns (criminals, the insane),
           making people wait a bit of time between application and permission
           to buy, ensuring that people understand gun safety and handling,
           and possibly, although I'm not prepared to argue either side of
           this, heavily restricting fully automatic weapons ownership, are
           all generally good things.  -John
           \_ Sure, but that's not what I was asking about.  I was asking
              about the bans on 'scary looking guns,' like the Dragunov for
              example.  Crazy people and criminals shouldn't have guns, of
              course, etc. -- ilyas
              \_ so why do you?
                 \_ Because a criminal gives up his rights by commiting a crime.
                    A 'crazy person' has legal restrictions on their rights,
                    which I think is as reasonable as restricting rights of
                    children (i.e. a good thing).  I fall into neither category.
                      -- ilyas
                      \_ Hmmm, so someone like Marth Stewart should be banned
                         from carrying a gun because she's been convicted.
                         Interesting line of thought. -williamc
                         \_ I think it goes without saying that it depends on
                            the crime committed.  It would be boring to argue
                            exactly where the line is, but it surely exists.
        \_ This isn't an answer to your question, because I don't believe in
           that sort of law and don't have a defense.  I just wanted to say
           that both parties have boatloads of unsavory things that they
           try to push through in order to please this or that constiuency
           or to raise x dollars for campaigns.
           \_ I am not sure.  I think DiFi isn't pleasing anyone.  I think
              she really believes in this stuff. -- ilyas
        \_ ilyas, you may possibly be the biggest dipshit in the universe
           \_ but the stars might be bigger dipshits
        \_ The scary looking assault-rifle guns are easier to use and
           are designed to have a higher rate of fire with magazines etc.,
           making them more deadly. They may be equipped or modified to
           have things like silencers, folding stocks, large mags, etc.
           Barrel grips allow rapid fire without burning your hand, and
           facilitate shooting from the hip. The stocks make it easier
           to conceal. The idea is that they want to ban "assault weapons"
           and full vs. semi auto is not the only factor there.
           \_ Yes, banned weapons tend to be easier to use.  My question is,
              why ban weapons that are easy to use?  What favorable effect are
              we looking for here?  The criminals will not have easy to use
              guns anymore?  Do you really think ergonomics have any
              effect on crime rates?  Also, as I pointed out before, a
              higher rate of fire does not imply deadliness, in fact it's
              usually the reverse. -- ilyas
              \_ The poster above gave you a URL. I suggest reading it.
                 \_ I am very familiar with  Favorite line:
                    "So there is a good reason why these features on
                    high-powered weapons should frighten the public."
                    Go get that soccer mommy vote!  Btw, what does
                    'high-powered' even means?  Most assault rifles fire a
                    smaller calibre than most hunting rifles.
              \_ A high ROF entails a higher rate of stray-bullet casualties.
                 \_ Do you realize that the net effect of a high ROF on
                    fatalities is negative?
                 People want to ban the weapons that are seen as favored by
                 criminals.  This included sawed-off shotguns, fully-automatic
                 rifles as well as very cheap pistols.  Whether these weapons
                 are better suited for criminal vs. legitimate use is subject
                 to debate of course,  The fact remains that they are seen by
                 the public as primarily having criminal uses, which makes
                 people want to ban them.
                 \_ It makes _some people_ want to ban them, but not others.
                    I didn't realize laws in this country were subject to
                    majority rule directly.  Shouldn't bans be based on
                    principle and sound data rather than opinion polls?
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ You made precisely the opposite argument with regard
                       to the death penalty.
                    \_ We live in a democracy, not a technocracy.  Deal.
              \_ One-shot deadliness isn't what concerns people so much.
                 It's the spectre of a skilled nut shooting at many people,
                 or people engaging in combat with law enforcement or gang
                 warfare. Sure there is also some psychological comfort
                 going on here. I'm not what you're looking for to defend
                 this though, I just looked this stuff up this morning.
                 I don't think it's right to say this is a clear republican
                 vs. democrat issue.
                 \_ I am not a republican, but I can't think of any republican
                    sponsored gun control measure I didn't agree with.  The
                    democrats, on the other hand... -- ilyas
        \_ A sensible argument might be to outlaw any gun that can penetrate
           a typical Type IIIA police vest.  But that would really drive the
           pro-gun lobby insane, since they would argue, and it is a reasonable
           point, that it gives too much control to a government police force
           and is overly restrictive.  Then again, you don't want to make
           all such weapons legal, since this would put too much power in
           civilian hands.  So, liberals work the periphery, making
           "obvious" assault weapons illegal.  Taken in this context, the
           current gun-control laws make sense as to how they arose, even
           if the laws themselves don't make sense (why ban "scary looking"
           guns when you get can a legal one that kills people better?
           Obviously liberals would like to ban those too!) in a vacuum.
           Also, keep in mind that a gun being semi-automatic or automatic
           makes it kill people better, in that you can kill more people
           faster, but you already knew that. -liberal
           \_ A full auto gun can kill faster in some situations (crowded rooms
              while in others a single shot is more effective (less recoil
              drift).  At any rate, are you in the business of reducing net
              deaths per year?  Why not legislate more dangerous things like
              cars instead? -- ilyas
              \_ wow I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for
                 a while but you are truly an idiot.  cars may be dangerous
                 but they provide tangible economic benefit, guns
                 just rip large holes in people and increase our health
                 care costs.
                 \_ Economic benefits don't stop things like drug legislation
                    (legalized drugs would be a tax windfall).  It's not about
                    that at all.  Incidentally it shouldn't be 'our' healthcare
                    costs, it should be 'mine,' 'yours,' etc.  If I pay for
                    my own doctor who are you to tell me whether I want a gun
                    or not. -- ilyas
              \_ Are you kidding me?  Liberals legislate on cars all the time.
                 \_ BAN SUV!  RIDE BIKE!  LEAVE GUNS ALONE!
2004/9/7 [Reference/Military] UID:33398 Activity:very high
        "... more than 20 elite Russian commandos were killed in the day-long
        battle that began Friday, many of them accidentally shot in the back by
        civilian vigilantes who rushed to the school to fight for their
        children. The previously undisclosed death toll ... surpasses any
        in the history of the famed Alpha and Vympel special forces units."
        \_ i read that.  i guess they weren't so elite.
           \_ I don't think it reflects on their elite-ness or the quality of
              their training when they take casualties from 'friendly forces'
              that weren't part of the unit (ie angry gun-toting civilians).
              \_ They probably weren't trained to exepect angry villagers to
                 come in behind them.  Imagine a siege of police around a
                 hostage situation, do you think *they* expect civilians to
                 start shooting into the whole mess?  Now whoever was in charge
                 of maintaining a perimeter is un-leet.
        \_ Or possibly they are making excuses for the unleetness of the
           troops and making shit up.  These are the same people who lied
           about the terrorist demands and about how many hostages there were.
           Russian media makes ours look downright responsible.
           \_ The leet CTs blamed the police for not keeping the civilians back
        \_ I read one article saying that the elite force wasn't prepared for
           action when the explosion broke out, and they didn't even get to put
           on standard gear like bullet-proof vests when they were forced to
           join the fight.  However, I read another article saying that the
           initial fighting only involved police and regular troops, and the
           elite force didn't join in until half an hour later which should
           have given them enough time.  I don't know which one to believe.
           \_ Bulletproof vests need ceramic plates to stop AK-47 bullets.
              It's possible they didn't bother putting any in the back, if
              there were space there.  Anyways, civilians shouldn't be shooting
              at any point.
              \_ Um.. by who's standard? NIJ ? .4 or .3?
                    \_ This is dated.  Do more research, grasshopper.
                       \_ What is your point, exactly?  That there are
                          bulletproof vests without plates that stop AK-47
2004/9/3 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:33339 Activity:nil
9/3     Man walks in Denver with Rocket Launcher:
        \_ Right to bear arms!
           \_ Right to arm bears!
        \_ The police TOOK them?  Why didn't they just ask him to wrap
           them up or something?
           \_ This really winds me up.  I mean, I'm all about banning assault
              weapons, etc. but to take these relics is just plain abuse of
              power.  I hope he sues.
              \_ Well, strictly speaking, they're probably still property of
                 the army, not that they'd miss them.
              \_ While I can support the right to own fake/uselss versions of
                 extremely powerful weapons, do you honestly think they should
                 have let him walk around in public with them in plain sight?
                 \_ Of course not.  He should be made to cover them up. Taking
                    them is an overreaction.
                    \_ Well, transporting them as he did may constitute a
                       crime.  Taking them from him, may be an overreaction,
                       but it's hardly a travesty of justice.  If he comes to
                       the police station with a proper means to transport them
                       and they don't want to charge him with recieving stolen
                       property, then I see no reason not to give them back.
                       \_ If they think he's guilty of a crime, they should
                          say so. They said they took them so as not to panic
                          the other citizens.  Call it like it is, or don't do
        \_ Man walks in Denver with used, useless rocket launcher.
           \_ disposable rocket launchers?  Is it really better/cheaper?
              \_ I doubt it's cheaper, but you do avoid the issue of cleaning
                 servicing and reloading in the field.  Plus you are no longer
                 required to make different warheads conform to a standardized
              \_ I don't know, but it would probably really suck to have your
                 rocket launcher jam.
2004/9/1 [Reference/Military] UID:33269 Activity:insanely high
9/1     So the answer to the question that started all this is "yes, there are
        gun nuts on the motd."
        \_ what?! doesnt everyone have at least 3 pieces : one on you, one
           for your car, and one for your home?
           \_ All you need is one in your hands at all times.  Then you won't
              have to fumble around in your car or house when you really need
              that gun to shoot somebody.
              \_ one? one? liberal pinko fag.
           \_ that wouldn't make you a gun nut.  there was a nice little
              discussion about it earlier this morning,  but it was nuked
              by a petulant gun nut.
              \_ How about if you can tell every gun error made in the movies
                 and ID the pieces in a sec and you DO NOT play CS because
                 killing someone for fun isnt is as fun as if it were real.
                 \_ I can ID the pieces in movies pretty fast most of the time.
                    *looks down*.  Of course half the time they aren't even
                    real production models, like they would glue something on
                    top of something else because it 'looks cool.'
                    I don't play CS because I think FPS games are boring and
                    lame and all the same really (except graphics get better
                    with time).  The CS crowd is ... not a point in favor of
                    CS either.  Also, comparing FPS games to shooting an
                    actual firearm is like comparing leisure suit larry to
                    sex.  You are all sex nuts. -- ilyas
                    \_ ilyas got pwn3d! w00t!
              \_ I'm not petulant.  YOU'RE petulant!!!
           \_ Just b/c someone wants the *RIGHT* to do something doesn't
              mean that they necessarily want to exercise that *RIGHT*.
              \_ No way.  All pro-second amendment people are raging assholes
                 and psychotic and evil republicans who want to wield tripod
                 mounted machine guns on their hummers to clear traffic.  None
                 would be someone like me who has never owned a gun but can
                 read the second amendment without putting a unique and wacky
                 interpretation on it.  The anti-second amendment people should
                 try to legally change it through the constitutional processes
                 created for that purpose, not through activist courts.  The
                 same goes for either party trying to invent other new rights
                 not in the constitution or remove ones that are clearly there.
                 \_ You just say that because you aren't forward
                    thinking enough.  Everything that supports my glorious
                    vision is good, anything that impedes it is bad.
        \_ Is it really that difficult for people to hold differing thoughts
           in their brains?  I respect the right of the average American to
           own a gun, AND I think trigger locks, lengthy background checks,
           and a ban on assault weapons is reasonable.  Why does it have to be
           \_ We need to ban thoughts of mass destruction.
           \_ Have to present a false dichotomy or they'll take my presciousss.
        \_ Speaking of guns, kinda, what kind of guns do they use in the
           Olympics? (Mainichi Daily News photo)
           \_ They use 'racing guns' i.e. guns unreasonably optimized for
              accuracy at the expense of everything else (aesthetics,
              reliability, etc.)  On a slightly unrelated note, I think it's
              really lame that some sports (skiing, shooting, polevaulting)
              don't standardize on equipment, which means richer country teams
              come with a bigger advantage simply because they can afford state
              of the art equipment. -- ilyas
              \_ c.f. NASCAR which is essentially a race to see who has the
                 richest family to support a team.
                 \_ no, you're thinking of science fair.
              \_ Communist!
              \_ Why are you advocating an authority-based system of equipment
                 selection?  Is it not best to let the free market decide the
                 best equipment?
                 \_ He wants athletes to be forced *at gunpoint* to use
                    Official Halliburton equipment!  -meyers
              \_ Is that one-handed thing part of the rules? Stuff for normal
                 guns I've seen always recommend a two-hand grip.
                 \_ yermom prefers the two-hand grip
        \_ The level of dumbassery in this thread is truly astounding.
2004/9/1 [Reference/Military] UID:33266 Activity:high
8/31             What's a gun nut?  Someone who believes owning a handgun is
                 a good idea?  -- ilyas
                 \_ you can own 20 guns and not be a gun nut.  you can hunt
                    and target shoot and not be a gun nut.  You can have a
                    gun you carry at all times for protection and not be a
                    gun nut.  A gun nut is someone who *believes* in
                    gun ownership as some sort of philosophical position,
                    not just because they want to kill deer, protect
                    themselves or practice their eye-hand coordination.
                    That's a gun nut.
                    \_ Oh man, I disagree with that.  You can *believe*,
                       as a philosophical position, that gun ownership is a
                       right.  It represents a freedom in this country
                       -- one right amongst many. The notion that believing
                       in something as a philosophical position makes you a
                       'nut' is absurd and belittling to anyone with an
                       education.  While there clearly *is* a line that
                       differentiates a person exercising a constitutionally
                       given right and someone that needs clinical help, your
                       vague definition clearly falls short of the mark.  -POC
                       \_ I think the PP was perhaps a bit harsh in his
                          definition, but I'd define a gun nut as someone who
                          values owning a gun in a way that goes beyond any
                          practical or legal uses for them.  People who believe
                          owning a gun makes them superior in some vague
                          Hobbesian or machismo sense would also fall into
                          this category.
                          \_ What about people who collect guns for aesthetic
                             or historical reasons, like people might collect
                             swords or paintings?  -- ilyas
                       \_ What does POC stand for?
                          \_ Police Officer Candidate
                    \_ Wow, nicely summed up.
                       \_ As long as you don't think about it, yeah.
                    \_ I don't understand this summary.  Are the asterisks
                       somehow significant?  I believe in life, liberty, etc.
                       Does that make me a life nut or a liberty nut?  Of course
                       I believe in all the rights I think I have.  What you
                       are saying is coming across as 'anyone who tries to
                       defend a position I don't agree with is a nut.'  Well,
                       that's great, we found the nut in the conversation, and
                       it ain't me.  Or maybe you just object to people trying
                       to come up with principled justifications for what
                       they believe in, and rather the world was just a giant
                       meaningless compromise between competing interest
                       groups.  That's not nutty, that's sad and depressing.
                         -- ilyas
                \_ alan keyes is a "gun nut"
        \_ It's alarming that to some, adopting the founder's
           beliefs on the possession of guns justifies
           categorization as a 'nut'.  Tyranny is on the horizon, and
           inside every leftist is a tyrant.
2004/8/31 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Reference/Military] UID:33260 Activity:very high
        Aimbot, autoshoot, wallhack, all here. Useful if you play games.
        \_ A non-trivial intersection between motd posters and the CS
           crowd would make all too much sense...  with all of them
           'w00t' and 'omg you got pwned' crap I keep seeing here. -- ilyas
           'w00t' and 'omg you got pwned' things I keep seeing here. -- ilyas
           \_ Translation:  ilyas is talking down 2 all u l00z3rS!!1!
           \_ n00b
           \_ Yeah, I hear there are a few gun nuts on motd.
              \_ What's a gun nut?  Someone who believes owning a handgun is
                 a good idea?  -- ilyas
                 \_ you can own 20 guns and not be a gun nut.  you can hunt
                    and target shoot and not be a gun nut.  You can have a
                    gun you carry at all times for protection and not be a
                    gun nut.  A gun nut is someone who *believes* in
                    gun ownership as some sort of philosophical position,
                    not just because they want to kill deer, protect
                    themselves or practice their eye-hand coordination.
                    That's a gun nut.
                    \_ Wow, nicely summed up.
                    \_ I don't understand this summary.  Are the asterisks
                       somehow significant?  I believe in life, liberty, etc.
                       Does that make me a life nut or a liberty nut?  Of course
                       I believe in all the rights I think I have.  What you
                       are saying is coming across as 'anyone who tries to
                       defend a position I don't agree with is a nut.'  Well,
                       that's great, we found the nut in the conversation, and
                       it ain't me.  Or maybe you just object to people trying
                       to come up with principled justifications for what
                       they believe in, and rather the world was just a giant
                       meaningless compromise between competing interest
                       groups.  That's not nutty, that's sad and depressing.
                         -- ilyas
                \_ alan keyes is a "gun nut"
        \_ Anyone who uses cheats for an online game doesn't deserve to live.
           \_ "CAMELOT!" "It's only a model..." "Shh!"
2004/8/30 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33222 Activity:very high
8/30    Bush on terror war: "I don't think you can win it."
        Perpetual war!  Yay! (AP via New York Daily News)
        \_ Much like the War on Drugs and the currently unfashionable War on
           \_ Ah yes, the War on Drugs.  And what a successful war it has been,
        \_ Unfortunately Bush is doing as well on the war on terror as I am
           doing on the war on stupidity...
        \_ How about The War on Phonics?
           \_ They've misunderestimated me.
2004/8/25-26 [Reference/Military, ERROR, uid:33141, category id '18005#1.49174' has no name! , ] UID:33141 Activity:low
8/25    This just struck me as hilarious.  Of Max Cleland: "I tried to
        accept that letter and he [Cleland] would not give it to me.  He
        would not face me.  He kept rolling away from me.  He's quite
        \_ URL?
        \_ So is it true the Cleland blew himself up with his own grenade and
           didn't take any enemy fire when he got the injuries that led to his
           \_ Not a clue, though that would be hilarious too.
              \_ Triple amputees sure are hilarious, yessirree.
                 \_ Yep, a scene out of your best B-comedy.  I can see the
                    hand of the Farrelly brothers.
           \_ Ah, apparently it was another soldier who dropped it, though
              Cleland thought it was his own grenade for many years:
              \_ Wasn't Bobdole also injured by his own weapon?
                 \_ Bobdole doesn't like your tone of voice.
                 \_ According to, his upper right back and right
                    arm wounds were caused by enemy machine gun fire.
                 \_ Bobdole cannot believe that Bobdole will only be
                    remembered for schilling Viagra.
                    \- get off Bob Dole's motd.
2004/8/24 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Reference/Military] UID:33092 Activity:high
8/24    Not to start another Swiftboat Troll, but did Kerry Volunteer for
        the Navy, or the Naval Reserves?
        \_ For the navy, as an enlisted.
        \_ Actually, his dad used his influence to get him into the
           Massachusets naval reserves, where he failed the exam to be a
           naval aviator, but was allowed to fly jets over Andover
           Mass during the war instead of fight because of his dad's
           influence.  This isn't *so* bad, but swiftboat troll is right
           to point out that it's pretty wrong that he then used his
           dad's influence once again to leave early to go to stanford
           Business school.
           \_ No, actually he wrote himself up for a few purple hearts so he
                  \_ Wrong.
                     \_ /sbin/modprobe sarcasm_detector
              could leave early and then go back and tell the world he and
              his Band of Brothers(c) committed rapes, civilian murders, cut
              off civilian body parts and were generally evil/bad/republican
              people/war criminals so the war should end.
              \_ Actually, in his testimony he said this was what 100+ other
                 veterans disclosed at the Winter Soldier investigation.
                 \_ Keep your filthy stinking facts away from the swift boat
                    troll, please.
        \_ Navy
2004/8/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:32758 Activity:insanely high
8/7     Anyone know this guy?
        \_ Hopefully no one will know this loser.
            \_Loser or not, I think it's rather instructive on how
              terrorism works. Terrorism would've never worked before
              there was a popular press and technology has made
              terrorism that much more effective as a propoganda tool.
              Now anybody with a webcam can become a jihadist.
              \_ it worked in spain quite recently.
              \_ terrorism never worked?  Terrorism has been around
                 for centries.  check out the word "assassin" and find out
                 where is that word from.
              \_ Using terror as a weapon works quite well.  Genghis Khan and
                 his ilk noticed this a long time ago.  Back in the old days
                 a lot of battle armor designs were meant to intimidate the
                 opponents.  The Picts fought naked as an intimidation
                 measure, the Mongols made piles of human heads, etc. etc.
                 Modern 'terrorism' is a nasty and irrationally collectivist
                 version of the old warriorship idea that attacking the mind
                 is more effective than attacking the body.  ('Irrationally
                 collectivist' because modern terrorists attack societies as
                 a whole, and that is counterproductive in settings other than
                 total war).  -- ilyas
              \_ it worked in spain quite recently.
                       \- well ignorning the first law of internet warfare,
                          "never get into an argument with someone in grad
                          school; they have more free time than you" ...
                          i dont see the relevance of most of your historical
                          examples. terrorism isnt just using psychological
                          intimidation techniques. i'd suggest it is a
                          combination of attacking civilian morale and
                          avoiding direct military confrontation. when the
                          roman army in 146 bc "salted the earth" at carthage
                          and sold off much of the population of corinth into
                          slavery, these flowed from direct military conflicts.
                          when a group avoid *direct* military conflict but
                          engages in indirect fighting, that is better
                          described as guerilla warfare than terrorism.
                          spain bombing: terrorism, clearly. i dont think
                          it's productive to call the viking raiders or
                          g. khan terrorists. they were more looters
                          and thugs. if an IRA "terrorist" assassinated a
                          british military person, that is probably guerilla
                          warfare. if he put a bomb in the london underground,
                          that is terrorism. if he shoots a bar owner in
                          belfast for serving british troops, that's murder.
                          \_ My thesis is 'terrorism is an old phenomenon.'  It
                             still holds if we take your definition.  It's as
                             old as fighting empires, where direct military
                             confrontation is infeasible. -- ilyas
                             confrontation is infeasible.  Also, I think there
                             is a definite connection between 'terrorism' and
                             'looters and thugs.'  Also, I am having a hard time
                     'looters and thugs.'  Also, I am having a hard time
                             seeing the line you see between guerilla warfare
                             and terrorism, especially if the former targets
                             civilians (and it often does).  Is terrorism just
                             'guerilla warfare with bombs?' -- ilyas
                             \- no, it has to do with target selection.
                                shoot/snipe and run [vietcong, american
                                revolutionaries etc] is guerella tactics
                                when aiming at military-related targets.
                                random/civilian targetting for a political
                                goal is closer to terrorism. i suppose there
                                has to be some element or organization and
                                some threashold goal ... i wouldnt call the
                                unabomber or the washington sniper pair
                                terrorists. maybe the weather underground,
                                but they were pretty stupid and incompetent.
                \_ The Czars and their cossacks were very capable terrorists.
      \_ As an aside, I heard a great story about one of Genghis Khan's
         battle tactics.  His army surrounded a city and said that if
         the citizens delivered 10,000 cats to the army along with some
         gold and other treasure, they would move on and not attack.  The
         citizens complied.  Genghis Khan then had his army tie rags to
         the tails of the cats, light them on fire and release the cats.
         The cats fled back to their homes in the city and the entire
         city started to burn.  In the ensuing chaos, Khan's army easily
         conquered the city.
                   \- there are lots of stories like this. see e.g.
                      ~psb/MOTD/SultanTughlak. However if you think this
                      or the tzarist repression is terrorism, you misuse/
                      misunderstand the word. tyranny != terrorism. --psb
         \_ KAAAAAAAAAAHN!!!
         \_ Now that's psych-warfare.
2004/8/2 [Reference/Military] UID:32627 Activity:very high
8/2     Trying to find a MPG of the North Hollywood Shootout. Google doesn't
        help. Thanks.
        \_ ?
2004/8/2 [Science/Electric, Reference/Military] UID:32626 Activity:insanely high
8/3     Five finger discount in the 21st century:
        \_ When the government puts the RFID chip in the back of *your*
           neck, you'll be glad some punk kid shoplifters figured out how
           to nuke the bastard.
           \_ How is the gov. going to get a RFID chip in my neck?
              \_ MEN WITH GUNS!
                 \_ against citizens w/ bigger and better guns
                 \_ This is why ordinary folk need guns (preferably
                    a couple of desert eagles, some mp-5's, one
                    or two p90's, and some rpgs)
2004/7/26 [Reference/Military] UID:32480 Activity:kinda low
7/26    This is a followup to thanks to everyone
        who replied. Anyways, we had a really good time in Marin
        Headlands. It was surprisingly not crowded at all like some
        other places and the weather was perfect (not too hot & the
        humidity perfect). In addition it was really close to Sausalito
        where we hung out. I'd say the best part was going up to Battery
        129 overlooking Golden Gate Bridge and the city, where it looked
        like it was sitting on the cloud. The scenery was breathtaking
        and unforgettable. The next best thing was going into the
        old artillery/battery/bunker/defensive buildings. They looked
        *exactly* like the ones I saw in Battlefield 1942/Medal of
        Honor, except without the guns. I never realized how massize
        those naval artillery guns were and how heavy the shells were
        (2100 pounds each!!!) until I went into one of those places.
        It was an awsome experience. Again thanks motd hikers!
        \_ Is this the battery the one where to reach it, you go under
           the freeway and up the hill after crossing GGB?
2004/7/22 [Reference/Military] UID:32420 Activity:insanely high
7/22    Only in California.  (Man who shot burglar with burglar's own gun
        arrested in SF)
        \_ Yeah, see, there's this idea that killing or assaulting someone
           that isn't a threat to you is a crime in this country.  It's not
           a very complicated idea, kiddo.
           \_ Someone trying to rob you with a loaded gun isn't a thread to
              \_ Reed the article again.  The robber dropped their gun and was
                 running away.  The 'victim' picked up the guy's gun and shot
                 him in the back.  It's not self-defence at that point because
                 an unarmed robber running away is a threat only to your
                 honor, not your safety.
        \_ Shot him in the back as he was fleeing.
        \_ only cuz it's against the law, i wouldn't shoot him.
           but it would be good prevention for further attacks if
           he did get shot outside, less blood on floor in house
        \_ and the burglar will probably be able to sue the man.
           \_ that would ironic.  The burglar may legally get the shooter's
           \_ that would be ironic.  The burglar may legally get the shooter's
        \_ So if a burglar attempts to break into my house but notices I'm
           home, should I be allowed to gun him down with my highpowered
           rifle as he runs down the street?  If you try to kill someone
           who's no longer a threat to you and is unarmed, it seems pretty
           cowardly.  The burglar got what he deserved but this kind of thing
           shouldn't be legal.
           \_ You should be allowed to shoot him.  Repeatedly.
              \_ Remember, if you shoot him in the nuts it's not attempted
                 \_ No, it's Mayhem or Aggravated Mayhem which has penalties
                    comparable to that of murder.
        \_ The guy was a dumbass. As my friends from the South say, if someone
           breaks into your house and you are forced to shoot (meaning, he
           won't leave), you keep shooting until he stops moving, THEN call
           the police.
           \_ If he's not actually a threat (he's just sitting on your couch,
              or standing in your living room), it would be homicide if you
              killed him, or possibly battery.  Simple idea: no threat, no
              right to lethal force.
           \_ Stops moving = immobilized or dead?
        \_ all foreign troops in Iraq are illegally there, and should
           be considered burglars, and hence shot on sight.
           \_ They are not being shot, but they're being killed (like car
              bombs, beheaded, etc) slowly.
2004/7/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:32366 Activity:insanely high
7/19    IAF (Indian Air Force)'s SU30 kicked USAF's F15C's arse in combat
        exercise in India:
        \_ I thought the point with an F-15 is you point the missiles from
           well out of visual range and run away at high speed while the
           tracking computer takes care of the rest.
        \_ time to offshore the air force. W00t!
        \_ dude, India has an airforce? I mean, most of the Indians I know
           are so myopic that they can barely drive a car and all...
        \_ Cope India '04 is old news.
        \_ This is not surprising.  The F-15 took to the air in 1972, the C
           variant in 1979.  The Su-27, on which the Su-30 is based, took to
           air along with the MiG-29 in the mid-80's, while the Su-30 itself
           first flew in 1989.  The F-15 in all variants is widely held to be
           at best equal if not inferior to the Su-30, MiG-29 and other more
           modern fighters.  The F-15 is less maneuverable for engagement
           inside visual range and also loses BVR where the Su-30 can track
           a target and launch a missle well before the F-15.  --Jon
        \_ did the USAF outsource their pilots? Seriously, there were
           reports on the unpatriotic public tv stations about russian pilot
           superiority as well. US pilots don't train that much fighting the
           old-fashioned "dog fights". It costs too much. USAF depends on
           firing missiles from far away to kill planes. the russian planes
           were very good as well. they don't need to be pampered like
           US planes.
           \_ I thought I saw a statistic somewhere that BVR kills only
              account for a tiny fraction of total US air-to-air victories.
              In most cases, you still need to come head-to-head and
              visually identify your adversary.
              \_ During Vietnam, the Sparrow radar guided missle had less
                 than a 10% kill rate.  As the Grumman F-4 II did not have
                 a cannon until very late in Vietnam, well, do the math.
                 Pilots in the F-4 were getting 2 MiG shot down for every
                 F-4 lost to enemy fire.
                 \_ I thought F-4s were getting their butts kicked by the
                    MiGs until the Navy instituted Top Gun school. Also,
                    they had short-range missles at their disposal, not
                    just Sparrows.
                 \_ ...Most of which was ground fire.  -John
           \_ The usual rule has been that US planes have better avionics,
              such as radio/radar/location/mapping/etc compared to Soviet
              and other fighters of similar range, but lose to the same
              fighters inside visual range due to lack of maneuverability
              and lack of pilot training on ACM.  Example, the Soviet
              air force had vectored thrust in 1990 -- USAF is just getting
              around to using it now.
        \_ The F-15C is the Air Force's "Best Fighter?"  By what metric?
           \_ By the metric of "planes actually in service".  F-22 is not
              scheduled to have an operational squadron till 2005.  F-35 is
              even farther away.  F-16 vs F-15 could be interesting. ditto
              for F-14 and F-18.  But, given improvements in avionics, and
              its single task focus, the -C (and the two seater -D) are
              the USAF's primary assets for air superiority.
              \_ Yeah, F-15C is the designated air-superiority plane. If you
                 look at the history of the F-16 versus F-15 it's interesting.
                 The F-16 does seem to be basically superior except that it
                 can't match the speed or ceiling of F-15 for interceptions.
                 It seems like in theory the F-16 could be better if it had the
                 air-to-air focus of USAF. It's also a lot cheaper.
                 \_ some other numbers:
                    thrust/wt at max takeoff weight: F-15: .73, F-16: .77
                    Wingloading (lb/ft^2): F-15: 112, F-16: 85
                    The F-15 and F-16 are at their base excellent platforms
                    for air superiority, just under different conditions.
                    The F-15 was designed as an all-weather day/night fighter.
                    The F-16 as a day fighter which, to appease certain groups
                    within the USAF, also got pushed into air-ground strike
                    roles.  The F-16 wins over the F-15 in maneuverability,
                    smaller RCS, price, and acceleration.  The F-15 wins in
                    top speed, max altitude, range/combat persistence, rate
                    of climb, and combat payload.  The F-16 also pioneered
                    fly-by-wire, HOTAS, radar/HUD integration, and negative
                    stability.  It was in many ways a guinea pig for new
                    technologies, whereas the F-15 was more traditional.
                    F-15 pilots with the one exception of F-15E pilots
                    spend all of their time doing air-air scenario training
                    whereas F-16 pilots all split their flight training
                    between air-air, air-ground.  The F-15 is an interceptor,
                    the big gun.  The F-16 is the inclose knife fighter.
                    \_ I'm not an expert on airplanes.  What exactly does the
                       Wingloading number mean?  Is it plane weight divided by
                       wing area?  I'm guessing the plane with the lower number
                       would have greater ability to climb at a given airspeed
                       but singe a larger wing means more drag, which plane has
                       better climbing ability when they don't have excess
                       speed to bleed off?
              \_ I thought there were several models of F15 after the -C?
                 \_ The F-15D is the two seater version of the -C.
                    The F-15E Strike Eagle is the ground attack/fighter
                    multi-role compromise.  It does well, but due to the -15's
                    optimization as a highly maneuverable air surperiority
                    fighter, it's somewhat hard to control at low altitude
                    highspeed due to turbulence in those conditions.
                    There are also export version of the -15 to countries
                    like Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia.
                    highspeed due to turbulence in those conditions.  This
                    is also a problem with the F-16 in certain a-g strike
                    roles, again at low-altitude.  There are also export
                    version of the F-15 to countries like Japan, Israel and
                    Saudi Arabia.
        \_ The article says that the USAF faced numerical disadvantage in
           the exercises. I don't think there's a single nation that can
           pose that problem in real combat. As always, numerical
           superiority helps a lot. There won't be much dogfighting
           against F117s supported by AWACs.
           \_ Various people on former Soviet miliary:
              Quantity has a certain quality all its own.
              \_ Dean Ing, "Systemic Shock", Ace books, 1981.  Look up
                 "Wall of Lenin".  -John
           \_ BTW Indians just signed a contract to buy Isreali AWACS systems
              mounted on russian transport planes. China is also close to
              signing a deal for buying Russian AWACS systems (which are
              supposedly inferior to Israeli ones but US objected to the
              Phacon sale to China).
              \_ The Israeli should name it Phalcon instead of Phacon.
                 Sounds nicer.
        \_ Its common knowledge that USAF sandbags these demos.  It
           really means very little.
           \_ What do you mean by "sandbags?"  I've never heard that term
        \_ next guy who fires on our planes gets shelled with something larger
                \_ Intentionally appearing weaker than you really are. I
                   think the term comes from poker:
                   \_ I think it comes from horse racing, where you would
                      tie bags of sand to your horse in trials to make
                      it appear slower.                  \_ corrected typo
        \_ Holy nerdfest Batman!  Where did all the armchair generals come from?
                \_ do you live in Little India, errr, I mean, Sunnyvale?
        \_ I love how this troll was brought back sans verbal diarrea that
           originally followed it.
           \_ the wonders of the magic motd archive.
              \_ What is a wonder is that someone is deeply disturbed enough
                 to invest that much energy in the motd.  This means you,
                 \_ You shouldn't be so hard on kchang.  His thing, with
                    some development, could have more useful applications
                    than the motd.  Web-based version control, for example.
                      -- ilyas
                        \_ why dont you tell us about the stars you
                           frigging kchang sympathizer?
                           \_ Uh, w00t?
                    \_ Do you know each other?
                       \_ We never met.  We exchanged a few emails. -- ilyas
        \_ I am surprised that their saying that an upgraded Mig-21 could be
           a formidable adversary for F-15c. Can an upgrade program really
           improve that much the old vintage piece of junk that Mig-21 is?
           If yes, the engineers at Mig had done a pretty darn good job.
           \_ first of all, Mig 21 was not a junk at first place. Secondly,
              I think when they talk about "upgrade," they are really talking
              about builing a new plane based upon an old design, no?
2004/7/16-18 [Reference/Military] UID:32328 Activity:very high
7/16    I have a question for the motd gun enthusiasts.  Do you find the
        account of Lee Harvey Oswald's shooting skills with that rifle
        from the Warren Report to be plausible?
        scroll down to "Oswald's rifle capability."
        \_ According to Full Metal Jacket, he learned it in the Marines.
           \_ I don't think anyone debates that he learned to shoot in the
              Marines.  The question is whether or not that particular
              shot is possible with that particular rifle, even for a
              good marksman.  In the Warren report, several experts testify
              that it is, but some people claim that is not true.  I want to
              hear what the motd shooters think.
                \_ Of course it's possible.  Any shot is possible.  It's
                   possible to purposely hit someone at 10,000 yards in a
                   crosswind, repeatedly.  The odds are against it, but why
                   not?  A gun just makes a bullet go real fast in a wide
                   arc, and maybe someone in the world has a form of
                   autism that lets him figure out exactly what all the
                   wind, amount of propellant, solar rays, whatever, will make
                   the bullet do.  The "he couldn't have made those shots,
                   it's impossible" argument is stupid.  -John
        \_ As a hunter and military vet, I think it would be easy for me
           to hit a slowly moving target in the neck at 100 yds. I don't
           know what the effect of being elevated like that would be, but
           on a level surface, I am sure I could make that shot.
           \_ that's the sort of answer i was looking for. thanks.s
              \_ You are welcome. The balllistics on that bullet after
                 hitting the target are kind of screwy though. It supposedly
                 hit Kennedy in the neck, came out his shoulder, hit that
                 Texas Governor in the head and then came back and hit
                 Kennedy again, right? I am not saying that is not
                 possible, but it seems pretty unlikely to me.
                 \_ My grandfather was shot in the neck by a crazy man during
                    a court case in the 1950s.  The bullet went in through his
                    carotid artery (interesting side note, he was one of the
                    first recipients of an artificial artery) and zig-zagged,
                    missing his spine, and came out at some goofy spot.  Once
                    a bullet hits stuff, it can do weird things.  -John
                 \_ yeah, I don't know much about the magic bullet thing,
                    but I'm curious.  Obviously if the Oliver Stone version
                    is based on accurate ballistics, there's a seroius problem
                    in the warren report, but I would want to know exactly
                    what the state of the art for ballistics was in 1963 to
                    make that judgement.
                    \_ I remembered the details wrong. These guys seem to
                       think it is possible:
        \_ The Republicans killed JFK!!!
        \_ I read a Marine Sniper training manual a few years ago, and
           the author (a decorated sniper) made a pretty convincing
           argument that it was quite possible for one man to pull off.
           And in fact, offered some pretty good explanations for things
           like why people heard shots from another direction.
        \_ A guy modeled the JFK assassination to scale on a 3D physics
           modelling program and was able to reproduce the shot.  It was
           on The Discovery channel or similar.  Very convincing.  -ax
        \_ What does any of this have to do with the mafia shooting him over
           Marilyn Monroe?
           \_ obItWasTheCIAInRetaliationForBayOfPigs
        \_ Oswald was a fag. -Michael McManus
2004/7/15-16 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Law/Court, Reference/Military] UID:32304 Activity:low
7/15    Help, I just bought an 8 year old Cherokee Archer and now AOPA
        wouldn't stop spamming me (snail mail and email) unless I joined their
        organization. I called them up to get it stopped but it's not
        working. What should I do?
        \_ Autoforward all their email back to one of their own addresses
           with a rewritten header telling them to stop sending this stuff to
           you.  Whether or not they stop won't matter since you won't see the
           email.  Snail mail you burn.  It's free firewood.
        \_ Send a certified letter demanding they cease all postal and email
           contact or you will sue for harassment.
           \_ Does that work? Under what conditions can you sue for harassment
              based on annoying letter and email spam?  How hard is it to
              actually win something like this?
              \_ While it would be a PITA to sue them, thet'd probably take the
        \_ That's a $140K airplane. How often do you use it to justify the
           \_ And that's any of your business because...?  Maybe one flight
              was enough to justify it to him.  There IS a wider world outside
              your own head, you know.
              \_ I am just curious. Maybe *I* want to buy a plane, too.
                 It's none of your business to ask why I want to know.
                 \_ *shrug*  fair enough.
           \_ And do you have a Middle Eastern last name?  Get the DHS on this
              one stat!
           \_ EIGHT year old plane costs $140K? How about a new one?
              \_ $205K + options, which can reach $235K+
                 \_ Options?  Can you get dubs on an airplane?  Preferably with
                    spinners?  How about custom exhaust?
                        \_ Don't forget random Azn characters. Each one
                           adds hp +5.
                           \_ How much for an NO2 sticker?
                              \_ And a clear case with neon lights?!  I want
                                 plane m0dz!
2004/7/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:32290 Activity:very high
7/14    F-16 Footage over fallujah
        \_ How do we know it's terrorists rather than innocent people who
           got blown into tiny bits of carbon?
           \_ fallujah is a city of terrorists and people sheltering
                terrorists.  Who's innocent there?
              \_ Sheltering terrorists?   If you knew a bunch of very violent
                 people, can you honestly tell me you'd be brave (or foolhardy)
                 enough to turn them in to the cops, knowing that their friends
                 could come slit your throat in the night?  It must be nice
                 living in your bubble where moral superiority does not pose
                 a danger to your personal safety.
                 \_ I think it's also kind of Darwinian, if you're still
                    in Fallujah after it's full of terrorists, and the
                    Marines are itching to raze it to the ground....
                    \_ Couldn't you say the same thing about the whole Iraq?
                       Are we offering a place to go?
                 \_ As if you'd post a list on your front door of all the
                    people you turned in?  Arabs already learned with Arafat's
                    PLO to do these things quietly or they'll get labelled as
                    traitors and shot in the street.
           \_ Because we only use smart bombs
           \_ You could apply to be sent there as neutral observer of the UN.
              \_ Right, and killing people is normal in war.  But are we
                 supposed to applaud and cheer the vaporization of 20-40
                 people just like those who cheered the killing of just
                 a few westerners?  I know you haven't talked about
                 cheering, but since the op is linking it through the
                 Freepubic rather than the original url, I suppose he wants
                 us to applaud and cheer like those freepers.  Where is
                 our moral superiority?  Are you a moral relativist?
        \_ That's weird. Can they not hear the jets/missiles approaching?
           It looks like these guys are just calmly wandering around.
           \_ When you drop your precision-guided munition from 30,000 feet,
              maybe they didn't hear you.
           \_ No.  They can't.  That's what flying faster than the speed of
              sound is all about.
              \_ So if you fly faster than the speed of sound you make less
                 noise?  Or your bomb got there faster than the sound of
                 your plane reached them?
                 \_ If you fly faster than the speed of sound, nobody will hear
                    your plane until after you've passed.  If a bomb falls
                    faster than the speed of sound, nobody will hear it coming
                    until after it lands.  In WWII, the V2 rockets could not
                    be heard approaching, which made them such a good
                    psychological weapon; in the middle of the night your house
                    could just explode.  Also, with rifle bullets, the bullet
                    you won't hear coming is the one that hits you.
                    \_ If you're orbiting the target, it's more likely for
                       your sound to get there, than if you bomb straight in,
                       \_ It's not that hard.  If you're flying supersonic,
                          people can't hear you until after you've passed.
                          If you're flying circles over the target, then they
                          can probably hear you, but that might not provide any
                          good warning if they're always hearing planes flying
2004/7/14-15 [Recreation/Computer, Reference/Military] UID:32279 Activity:kinda low
7/14    A farewell to the Marine Corps, Colonel Wayne Shaw, USMC, Quantico,
        \_ Great find.  I love his 10 questions.
2004/7/14 [Reference/Military] UID:32273 Activity:nil
        I cast magic missle at the overweight security guard!
2004/6/18 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30887 Activity:moderate 72%like:30797
6/18    New army combat uniform:
2004/6/17 [Reference/Military] UID:30860 Activity:very high
6/17    Attn: Geordan.  Your laser gun is almost ready.
        \_ You know what scares the hell out of me?  Hand-gun sized stunners
           in the hands of serial killers, rapists, and the generally violent.
        \_ You know what scares the hell out of me?  Hand-gun sized hand guns,
           knives, clubs, 2x4s with nails in them, and other sharp or blunt
           heavy objects in the hands of serial killers, rapists, and the
           generally violent.
        \_ You know what scares the hell out of me?  Serial killers, rapists,
           and the generally violent.  Outlaw violence!
           \_ When violence is outlawed, only outlaws will be violent.
           \_ We have nothing to fear but fear itself.  And the generally
2004/6/5 [Reference/Military] UID:30630 Activity:nil 55%like:30640
6/5     Live Free Or Die: How Many More Carl Dregas?
        and more on the bull dozer guy in Co.
2004/6/3-4 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Reference/Military] UID:30586 Activity:very high
6/3     How many Panzers can the M1 Abram take out? How many ME109s can the
        F22 raptor take out? Just want to see how much we have advanced in
        the past 60 years...
        \_ F22 will take out as many as it is possible to take out
           with the amount of missiles it can carry, then go back to
           its home base unharmed, refuel, rearm, repeat.. For that
           matter, an F16 would probably do the same, and any older
           generation fighter armed with missiles and radars.
           \_ Actually, I've only heard one story of a prop plane
              successfully taking out at jet after WWII.  Something about
              a patrol plane in 'nam where he strapped a missle to his
              landing gear, and used it to shoot down a MiG that had been
              harrassing him.
        \_ M1a3 vs panzers: all of them until it runs out of shells.  The
           panzer can't penetrate the M1's hull at any reasonable range.
           F22 vs ME109: all of them until the F22 runs out of ammo.  The
           ME109 can't see it, can't catch it, can't target it, and will go
           down in flames while the F22 is still miles away.
           \_ Furthermore, on the tank front, a lot of people don't
              realize that WWII tanks couldn't shoot with any accuracy
              while moving, and would have a pretty hard time hitting a
              moving target.  An M1a3, on the other hand, can hit a rat
              from a mile away while going 60mph.  So even if the pazers
              got close enough, they'd still be toast.
           \_ This poster is just right.  Recall the two wars in Iraq.
              They conclusively demonstrated that the side with the
              better weapons, not the side with more, will win in open
              warfare.  Sadly, our gov't is buying more weapons rather
              than investing in next-generation better weapons.  Consider
              a nation with effective battlefield lasers.  Aircraft will
              suddenly have to fly below the horizon or they'll be shot
              down at the speed of light.  Same with missiles.  Shells.
              Would you rather it be us with the lasers first, or China?
              Write your congressperson.
              \_ The US Navy is investing heavily in laser platforms for ships.
                 China has a long way to go to catch up to the US, I would say
                 20 years would be enough if the US stood still.  America
                 learned the "R&D >>> production" lesson in WWII, when the
                 Tigers were pulling the "kill all Shermans until out of ammo"
                 trick on the Americans.  The flip side of the coin is the
                 Russians, who lost 3 tanks for every 2 german tanks, but
                 were outproducing the Germans 10 to 1. -- ilyas
              \_ The U.S. wants anti-cruise-missile tech.  Whether it's laser
                 or not, we don't care, as long as it works.  Heck, if we
                 could zap Osama from a Predator, I'm sure the military
                 guys would love that too.
              \_ Training and professionalism also played a critical role.
                 T-72s and Mig-29s that Iraq possessed were considered to
                 be quiet formidable tanks and fighter planes respectively
                 when operated by well-trained crews (granted, most of Iraqi
                 weapons were much older than that). I read somewhere that
                 during the Iran-Iraq war the troops on both sides did no make
                 an effective use of the technology that they posessed. For
                 example, the Iraqis didn't use the advanced sights/targeting
                 on their Soviet-made tanks, reducing their effectiveness to
                 WWII era.  Also, both sides tended to hole up their tanks and
                 use them as individual artilery pieces.
        \_ Why do I feel like the Command & Conquer / Rise of Nations /
           Empire Earth forum has suddenly moved here?
           \_ Paradox forums >> all.  Those guys know their history. -- ilyas
        \_ Tank vs tank is measure of RHA.
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