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| 11/23 |
| 2006/10/12-14 [Reference/Military] UID:44787 Activity:nil |
10/12 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/08/sports/baseball/08yankees.html Flight instructor who died with Cory Lidle: "Part of Stanger's job is to surprise students by simulating emergencies. He will pull the throttle to the idle position, essentially letting the plane coast as if the engine were failing." CNN: "No confirmation that plane issued mayday call before hitting high-rise" \_ "The whole plane has a parachute on it, ...... But if you're up in the air and something goes wrong, you pull that parachute, and the whole plane goes down slowly." What? Is that just a metaphor? \_ No, the plane has a Cirrus Aircraft Parachute System that lowers the whole plane to the ground. Questionable effectiveness, one person got crushed vertebrate, another was flying too fast and the chute ripped off, another was in a death spiral and the chute didn't operate correctly |
| 2006/10/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:44723 Activity:nil |
10/7 Navy lawyer whose defense of Osama bin Laden's driver led to the
Hamdan decision is forced into retirement by the Navy:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/15704593.htm |
| 2006/10/5-7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44686 Activity:nil |
10/5 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml "Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union" |
| 2006/9/20-22 [Reference/Military] UID:44469 Activity:nil |
9/20 Gays on a plane!
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/060925ta_talk_collins |
| 2006/9/20-22 [Reference/Military] UID:44460 Activity:nil |
9/20 Green Bay teens accused of plotting a Columbine like attack.
http://wfrv.com/topstories/local_story_257131419.html |
| 2006/9/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:44424 Activity:kinda low |
9/18 Are M16s still used in the Army? Is it still inferier to AK47s
in the real world, where it is outside of the perfect laboratory
test conditions?
\_ I dont't know much about guns. But I think M16s are too long when
you need to fight left and right from inside a Humvee. AK47s are
shorter.
\_ Then use an M4 carbine.
\_ Don't you watch SG-1? The military all use FN P90s
\_ Silly troll, the P90 is a good all-purpose weapon, but the show
routinely uses MP5s, carbines, and other weaponry.
\_ US marines firing AK-47:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LCpl_Cheema_on_the_AK-47.JPG
\_ Kalashnikov holding an M16, and Stoner an AK-47:
link:www.csua.org/u/gwy
\_ Obviously you do not own any guns. You fire the gun that
your job requires, and cost the least in the U.S. So FNC
has been making M-16A2s for the Army for the last three
rounds of purchasing. M4s are exclusively made by Colt.
(The patent on making M-16s ran out a long time ago.)
Those in know, know that AK-47 is NOT used by the forces of
fUSSR. And in many cases you actually see an AK-74 (chambered
in a similar 5.45 x 39 (as opposed to 5.56 x 45). Many
Afghanis know the terminal effects of the 5.45. Whereas your
typical terrorist might use the AK-47, it is usually less
accurate than the M-16 (almost all variants) but has better
range. 5.56 was originally a varmint hunting round. Ineffective
close-up against drugged up targets without hitting a vital
organ. Hence the move toward either 6.8 SPC / Grendel or
blended metal rounds. P90s now available in semi as PS-90
outside of CA. - proud owner of many of the above.
\_ Redneck: Noun. An English speaker who uses the word "varmint"
in any non-ironic context.
\_ Clueless about guns. Remington .223 was a varmint hunting
round until it was adopted as the 5.56x45
\_ PANCOR JACKHAMMER, BABY! -John
\_ AK-47 The Musical Version:
http://tinyurl.com/zhtwn (gizmowatch.com) |
| 2006/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:44420 Activity:nil |
9/18 Does the Right to Keep and Bear Arms [in certain states] include the
right to keep grenades, mines, bazooka, artillery, tanks, or even
chemical weapons? I'm guessing you can't own any of these in CA
but what about other states? |
| 2006/9/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:44419 Activity:nil |
9/18 When we fought a proxy war with the Russians, we supplied Bin Laden
with powerful weapons that drove the evil empire out of Afghanistan.
How is it possible the primitive Afghans now are blowing us up with
extremely powerful miniaturized bicycle bombs? Isn't it possible that
as an act of revenge the Russians are now supplying the Afghans
with weapons to fight with us?
\_ doubt it. russians have their own problems.
\_ Afghanistan has 150+ years of resisting occupation forces under its
belt. While it's true that our money helped the Mujahadeen there
quite a bit, it's just as likely that Afghanistan would have bogged
down and defeated the Russkies on its own. A similar thing is
happening to us (and our allies) there now. Although it would
perhaps be more comforting (in a bizarre way) to think that the
resistance could only continue with outside technical help, it's
much more likely that the Taliban is doing this completely in its
own.
\_ Read your history. The US didn't give squat to Bin Laden--he wanted
to kill us back then. We supported the Northern Alliance. Bin
Laden was with the non-afghani mujahideen. They were supplied by
arab countries.
\_ The Soviet Union has long gone. |
| 2006/9/16-19 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44410 Activity:nil |
9/16 Yaacov Lozowick, author of "Right To Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel's
Wars," calls second Lebanon war "stupid"
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001262.html
\_ Without billions extracted from unwitting Western
countries? Good luck. Isreal is a refuge for mobsters and
criminals fleeing justice. |
| 2006/9/15-19 [Reference/Military] UID:44384 Activity:kinda low |
9/15 Canadian Columbine:
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2006/09/14/1838305-sun.html
\_ Looks like all those gun control laws worked.
\_ Maybe the place this happened had a rocket factory nearby in
which case they all deserved it.
\_ Yes, Michael Moore is an intellectually lazy and dishonest
asshole. If you want to read an analysis of rage murders
by a brutally honest intellectually hyperactive genius
asshole instead, please read "Going Postal", by Mark Ames.
Unlike Michael Moore, he actually draws original conclusions
and supports those conclusions with painstaking scholarship.
\_ Is this the eXile.ru Mark Ames?
\_ Yes, but you see a very different side of him in this
book. He seems to be able to channel that spastic
energy that helps him get through 9 whores in one night
into actual scholarship when it suits him. And unlike
most of Hunter Thompson's work, it's clear that he was
either totaly sober when he wrote this, or so brilliant
he could fight through the drugs somehow.
\_ He was an aggressive anti-smoker, " A student told Sun Media the
man had filtered through a crowd of smokers gathered at the
school's entrance. "There must have been some 50 people," said
Cyrielle Vincent, 21. "We noticed him right away -- he stood out
with his black coat and mohawk. Then he suddenly started firing
away." If only they banned smoking in Canada this might have never
happened.
\_ He shot some smokers? Well that's all right then. They were
probably giving him second hand smoke.
\_ Dittoheads, remember:
1) Any shooting that happens in another country is proof that
gun control doesn't work
2) Any shooting that happens in the U.S. is proof that we have
too much gun control
3) All statistics about gun deaths are irrelevant
4) Remember Waco!
\_ Don't forget 5) Switzerland
\_ Don't forget 5) Switzerland \_ What about it?
\_ I love Switzerland. That's where I funnel all my dirty
money. Much better than the Cayman Islands. |
| 2006/9/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/Military] UID:44340 Activity:nil |
9/10 Screw the War on Terrah, we need the War on Bad Driving. There have
been about 208,000 road deaths in the USA since Sept 11 2001,
according to:
http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html
Or how about a big budget ABC miniseries, "The Road to Bad Driving?" |
| 2006/9/2-7 [Reference/Military] UID:44249 Activity:moderate |
9/2 Only 44 years left to cut global green house emissions in half to
avoid global warming effects.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20332352-601,00.html
\_ "The Government keeps throwing up the costs of action but totally
ignores the costs of inaction." This also applies to our govt's
attitude.
\_ I believe in Global Warming like I believe gun control works.
\_ In countries were firearms are illegal, there are few gun
deaths so obviously gun control doesn't work.
\_ Yup. The following stats deminstrates exactly how gun control
\_ demonstrates
doesn't work:
"In the UK there are about, 100 firearms deaths a year in
the recorded crime statistics, about double that number in
Canada and, under 50 in Japan. The figure in the United
States is more than 10,000. Even adjusting for population,
this is a huge difference."
http://www.polfed.org/0703firearms-and-police.pdf
Population for each country (2003 figures), and firearms
deaths a year per million people:
UK: 60,441,457 1.7
Canada: 32,805,041 6.1
Japan: 127,417,244 < 0.4
US: 295,734,134 >33.8
\_ Now post Switzerland, where gun ownership is common.
\_ For kicks I looked up the breakdown of firearms deaths in
the US. When you pull out the suicides and the gang
killings the rate drops to about 24 with more than 2/3rds
of the remaining listed as "unknown". So the death rate
for normal citizens in the US is anywhere between 8 and
24 on this scale which is still higher than other countries
in the West but our country is much safer in other ways and
you still have the right to defend yourself and others
here unlike in the UK, for example.
\_ I hope there's a riot in your neighborhood and you
find yourself needing a gun. Trusting the same government
that you want out of your bedroom with your gun rights.
Why don't we ban cars, since they "kill" more people
than guns. I'm glad there are bean counters like you
who have so much faith in police (who your cohorts
in the 4th estate often villify and crucify). There
are so many people who saved by guns every year, but
no one keeps track of those. Go ahead, be a victim.
\_ I consider myself to be a liberal. To me that means
the government needs to stay the fuck out of both
the bedroom and the gun locker. To agree with one
of these and not the other is not a liberal position;
I just wanted to point that out. -!pp
\_ Checked out the other crime stats? So you're less
likely to get shot (which was already a small chance)
and a lot more likely to get robbed, raped, beat up,
mugged, burgled(sp?) and just about every other thing.
It would be interesting to see the same stats for the
US with gang-on-gang drug related shootings removed.
\_ I don't know about other countries, but when I was in
Japan, women felt comfortable walking around alone late
night in most parts of the country except maybe in the
Sinjuku area. It's also common for druken men to fall
asleep on sidewalks, and wake up the next morning with
their suitcases intact. People left their Lexus outside
convenient stores with the engine running. And so on.
their briefcases intact. People left their Lexus
outside convenient stores with the engine running. And
so on.
\_ Try that in Europe.
\_ UK or another Eurpoean country?
\_ I was thinking UK in particular since they're
so well known for their anti-gun laws and the
most similar of all these countries to the US.
\_ I don't know about other countries, but women in Japan
feel comfortable walking around alone late night in most
parts of the country, except maybe in the Sinjuku area.
\_ Is it worse in Europe than in the US?
\_ Good comparison. The U.K's violent crime
rate is lower than the U.S.'s. -tom
\_ That wasn't the question. What has
happened to the crime rate in the UK over
time as they have enacted laws to
eliminate gun ownership? The answer, as
you know, is other violent crimes have
gone up. Let's try apples to apples
discussions instead of trying to "win"
with rhetorical games, eh?
\_ Rhetorical games? This sub-thread
started with someone claiming that
"other crime stats" showed that you
were "much more likely to get
robbed, raped...." That's simply
false. -tom
\_ Show us UK crime stats since WWII
on a per capita basis. Let's see
if they go up or down. And no,
this thread started with global
warming and got thread jacked way
at the top by some troll but I was
happy to play along.
\_ I'd rather get beaten up by a guy
armed with a wooden stick than shot
in the head with a bullet.
\_ Except crime stats for places with
concealed carry laws are lower
than places where firearms are
illegal. So you'd really rather
get beat by a guy with a bat or
possibly still be shot in the head
with gun, since firearms laws
won't keep him from having a gun
anyway, than be left alone by the
same guy because he doesn't know
if you'll shoot him dead if he
attacks you.
\_ If the idea behind carrying a
handgun is to deter violence,
doesn't it make more sense for
the weapon to *not* be
concealed? It seems to me that
the chances of a handgun
stopping a crime from happening
are *much* higher when the gun
is a ludicrously oversized
hand-cannon strapped to
someone's hip in plain sight,
rather than a more practical
smaller handgun tucked in the
jacket.
\_ Not really, because when
concealed, you never know
what you're facing. Every
person you might attack or
anyone else around *might*
shoot you for it. But when
everyone is required to
show what they're carrying
you know in advance what the
situation is, how many and
what type of weapons and who
has them before deciding
who, if anyone, and when
you'll attack. Concealed
carry doesn't mean everyone
is carrying. It means they
*can* if they want to. Not
everyone does.
\_ Uhhh...I wasn't saying
anything about not
allowing concealed carry.
I'm saying that if you
were, say, a female at
night in a dangerous area,
you're better off with a
.44 magnum in a hip
holster than with a
night in a dangerous
area, you're better off
with a .44 magnum in a
hip holster than with a
weapon that gets drawn
*during* a crime that
you actually end up
using.
\_ Do you have any idea how
hard it is to get a
concealed weapon permit??
\_ Depends on where you
are. There's a bunch
of really friendly
towns in Texas. In CA
yes it is basically
impossible. What does
that have to do with
concealed carry making
for safer streets or
not?
\_ It shows that your
whole argument is
moot since the only
people who can get
permits are FBI
or DEA agents.
\_ Entirely untrue.
CA is not the
entire nation.
\_ If everyone
is packing
then you will
have the Old
West: shoot
first and ask
questions
later. Likely
more
ambushes, too. |
| 2006/8/21-22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:44087 Activity:nil |
8/21 http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/753032.html Open letter from terrorist lovers to Israeli defense minister |
| 11/23 |
| 2006/8/11-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43978 Activity:nil |
8/11 http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp Pro-Israel organization wages propaganda war \_ The narrator's smug tone makes me want to go blow up Israel myself. \_ The narrator probably isn't even Israeli. Do you have any issue with the content, or only his tone? \_ gasp. one propaganda war to battle another. Where will it all end? \_ In my pants. Huh huh. -beavis |
| 2006/8/11-14 [Reference/Military] UID:43966 Activity:nil |
8/11 Just an FYI. Those explosive gels in the gatorade bottles: it's not
enough to take down a plane, but it would injure immediate neighbors.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=415365
Funny how a small-time media outlet gets the facts right, but two
articles in the big papers don't seem to mention it. -Your Chem 1A TA
\_ He's "doubtful" it can bring a plane down.
\_ I doubt it as well. I came to the same conclusion independently.
\_ What if the explosive was detonated under a seat that was
positioned above the central fuel tank?
\_ I heard Gatorade cause testicular cancer. -Lance Armstrong |
| 2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/Military] UID:43715 Activity:nil |
7/18 6000 Iraqis killed in sectarian fighting in May and June, approximately
100 a day. Six thousand deaths in two months, in a country of
26 million residents, is the equivalent of 9/11 every two and a half
days.
http://www.uniraq.org/documents/HR%20Report%20May%20Jun%202006%20EN.pdf
\_ But we're spreading freedom!
\_ That will all stop once we turn the corner. Just wait!
\_ Maybe they should stop fighting each other then. If you need a
totalitarian police state to prevent your citizens from butchering
each other then something is wrong with your culture.
\_ Sooo I guess that's "oopsiedoodle" on the whole Iraq thing then.
\_ Saddam used biological weapons on his own people!
... maybe we should use some on them too!
\_ ob we're fighting them there so we don't fight them here.
ob if you disagree, you're giving aid and comfort to the enemy
and not supporting the troops
ob mushroom cloud over major american city
\_ so long as the right people are dying what's the problem?
If it is truely innocent civilians very very sad. |
| 2006/7/8-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:43596 Activity:nil 80%like:43593 |
7/8 Afghidan
http://afghanidan.blogspot.com/ -jblack
\_ Wow, nice photoblog.
\_ "A young man's strange, erotic journey from Milan to Minsk."
...erotic?
\_ Good link, thank you. -John |
| 2006/6/29-7/3 [Health/Men, Reference/Military] UID:43531 Activity:nil |
6/29 How Silicon Valley men fight:
http://cbs5.com/watercooler/local_story_059005903.html
\_ Are you interested in joining? I know one of the guys in that
video.
\_ Holy stupid. "Hey look I cut my arm I'm cool!" Martial arts classes
already have sparring. So this is just play fighting on concrete for
no particular reason and vague rules. They seem to think this has
something to do with a real world fight without rules. I'd like to
see them fight this guy:
http://thatvideosite.com/view/2414.html
Or someone who doesn't abide by these rules:
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
\_ Of course it has something to do with it. Slightly more
than sparring. I don't think anyone there thinks this is
real fight where you get hurt. That's the whole point.
\_ Well one of them says something like "we want to see how
martial arts work against someone who is fighting back".
Obviously if they are not wearing pads and avoiding hurting
each other then well, it's probably less than sparring
other than that they getting more injuries.
other than that they get more injuries.
\_ Umm.. most of the sparring I've seen and done you're
wearing pads, not hurting each other, stuff ends in
points, and you're restricted to one martial art.
That sparring is less like a real fight that what they
are doing. What sparring do you do? You use real
knives or something?
\_ Protective gear at lets you do more without being
as concerned about hurting them. At least they use
that headgear but still. Is that enough to protect
head vs. concrete?
Sparring isn't really better but this doesn't
seem to add anything other than pointlessly
getting hurt. (why not have a padded floor?)
Their knife fight looks like it has little to do with
knives beyond their first stabs at each other.
Maybe ending in a point is better than just play
hitting each other with no result.
\_ This is why grappling is so much better than
striking arts. You can go full contact with no pads
using judo or jiujitsu tournament rules and no one
gets hurt, but in a no-holds-barred fight against
karate and boxing fighters you do better because
you're used to the real thing. Don't belive me?
Watch the early UFC fights when boxers and karate
people would get their asses handed to them in
seconds by grapplers many pounds lighter than them.
And the last judo tournament I went to had something
like 100 people in it, including little kids, with
zero injuries. Grappling: more fun, more effective,
more interesting, safer.
\_ can I do curbing on a nerd? |
| 2006/6/8 [Reference/Military] UID:43319 Activity:nil |
6/8 Air Force Hero To Defend Accused Marines
http://csua.org/u/g46 |
| 2006/5/30-6/3 [Reference/Military] UID:43228 Activity:nil |
5/30 Teacher uses carbine in physics experiments http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/25/BAGO0J1C5O18.DTL \_ I love how the man is condemned because of his insensitivity to the horrors of Columbine. You'd think the safety concerns would be a little more topical.... *sheesh* \_ Especially since he's been doing this since well before Columbine. |
| 2006/5/24-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43180 Activity:nil |
5/24 http://marinetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1823925.php "It's going to be extraordinarily difficult for them to find enough defense counsel", says Marine Corps attorney, regarding number of court martials which may result from investigations into alleged Haditha massacre |
| 2006/5/23-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43158 Activity:nil |
5/23 Iraq version of My Lai?
http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1174649,00.html
Consider that only few got slap on the wrist for My Lai, I sincerely
doubt anyone would end up getting punished for such behavior.
\_ Three officers have been relieved of command and given desk jobs.
Otherwise, the leadership would like this to remain as quiet as
possible until the investigation is complete, to balance news of
the alleged atrocity with publicity of jail time or dishonorable
discharges.
the alleged atrocity with publicity of court martials or
dishonorable discharges.
The spin will be that the people in those houses were aiding and
harboring insurgents, and there was some gunfire from there.
That doesn't change the rules of engagement, though, as far as
shooting people who do not have a weapon, aren't wearing a suicide
belt, and are running away from you.
\_ don't you think such behavior can only be stopped by severe
punishment such as death or extremely long sentense? otherwise,
switch to a desk job sounds more like a reward than punishment.
\_ basically, can the military lawyers prove that these guys
egregiously violated rules of engagement? If so, then they'll
get jail. If not, then they might just get discharges.
What other way is there to do it?
It's not unusual for the guilty to get away scott-free
because there was no videotape or Abu Ghraib photo CDs. |
| 2006/5/19-22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43102 Activity:nil |
5/18 http://csua.org/u/fwy (latimes.com) Marine made famous by photo develops full-blown PTSD after coming home \_ That's nice... troll. When's the last time you stood for your fellow man without personal gain? \_ Kettle, the pot would like to know if that's your natural hair color. \_ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635067/posts |
| 2006/5/18-22 [Recreation/Activities, Reference/Military] UID:43091 Activity:nil |
5/17 sameer joines the marines
http://www.creativedestruction.com/blog |
| 2006/5/10 [Reference/Military] UID:43000 Activity:nil |
5/10 Russian speakers: Can someone tell me what "Istrebitelnaja
Samokhodnaya Ustanovka" literally means? It's Russian for self-
propelled gun/artillery or something, but I'd be interested in the
word-for-word translation. -John
\_ demolishing self-propelled systems -shac
\_ demolishing self-propelled systems. im also told it has a
shorter nickname of kat'yusha -shac
\_ Katyushas, or Stalin Organs, were the big trucks with lots
of artillery rockets on the back. ISUs were self-propelled
guns (dunno if they also called rocket launchers by that
designation.) Thanks! -John |
| 2006/5/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:42903 Activity:nil |
5/2 The Republicans have a secret weapon to win the 08 Election--
the capture of OSL. This is my 06 prediction. -Lefty Swami
\_ Who the fuck is OSL? Do you mean OBL or UBL?
\_ Artifact of translating Arabic names into English.
Unless you are talking about the ODB.
\_ They don't need a secret weapon. Their not-so-secret-weapon
is "Iran will nuke you unless you vote Republican" - danh
\_ Why didn't they bring him out in '04, then?
\_ they didn't need it then.
\_ So, you think they've had OSL in custody this whole time,
and are just keeping it a secret? Whatever, conspiracy
boy. Are they also going to destroy education this year?
\_ I really thought they might pull this in '04, but I'm increasingly
convinced that these people couldn't run a conspiracy in a
kindergarten. |
| 2006/4/23-24 [Health/Eyes, Reference/Military] UID:42807 Activity:nil |
4/22 Man shoots himself 12 times in the head with a nail-gun and
lives.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002945554_webnail21.html
\_ I bet an American-made nail gun would have worked right the first
time. |
| 2006/4/6-7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:42711 Activity:low |
4/6 Lookout! The elite Venezuelan housewife army is ready to repel any
US invasion.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060403/wl_nm/venezuela_reservists_dc_1
\_ If they're anything like the S. American women I've been running
into, they'll sit around overweight in ugly dresses and sneer
a lot. Real deadly. -John
\_ Sucks to be you. Where are all the Miss Universe contestants?
I have a Colombian friend and she is gorgeous. Thin. Tall. Fair
complexion. Big eyes. Amazing cheekbones. Overall, I think
South American women are some of the most beautiful in the
world, especially if they have a lot of Spanish blood.
\_ I thought it was about a new porn site ......
\_ Is it lead by Alicia Machado? I sure would want to invade to face
her on muddy battleground. |
| 2006/4/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:42617 Activity:kinda low |
4/2 I guess Russians are exporting those babys everywhere:
\_ sic
http://tinyurl.com/o99gq
\_ I suspect American has something similar and it's been super
secret about it. Further, I don't think it's necessary to
use such weapon on an oil tanker...
\_ The target of such a weapon would be a US aircraft carrier,
battleship, cruiser, or other high value, high PR target.
The US doesn't need their own version. What little fleet the
Iranians have is no real threat without this. The US needs a
defense against such a weapon. Imagine both the military and
PR value of sinking a carrier or battleship? The British lost
a destroyer to the Argentines and it was a huge deal.
\_ There's no mention of this being a hardened weapon. Unless
they have ECCM better than our ECM, these are virtually a non-
issue.
\_ original Russian version has no guidance whatsoever. I
don't know what version does Iranian have. --OP
\_ We have no idea if it is or isn't. It could be completely
mechanical in which case ECM is useless. If you were
designing a torpedo to kill large well defended American
Navy vessels would you leave it open to easy ECM death?
\_ Of course not, but I'm not the people who built this
torpedo. It sounds like they were told to emphasize the
speed, which leads me to think that they may have
neglected other parts.
\_ Exactly. Speed without accuracy using high tech
guidance system means nothing. The early Migs
flew higher and faster than the Phantom F4s but
the F4s had much better guidance system. For
every 10 Migs down there were only 1 F4 down.
\_ They may have emphasized speed because that was
the only special thing about it. Nothing says
it can't still be accurate. In WW2 purely
mechanical, unguided torps hit often enough to
be useful. It may be shielded. It may be wire
guided. Since everything we do know comes from
Iranian PR, we really don't know anything except
what they claim. Fighting against the US with
high tech is usually a bad idea for most countries
since they really can't out tech the US
sufficiently in enough fields to matter so the
smart thing would be to go the low-tech high-
powered high-reliability route. Speculating is
still fun though. As far as the mig vs phantom
thing goes, the American pilots were *very*
experienced and in Vietnam the numbers only
turned haevily in favor of the US after we
upgraded the fighter fleet and started putting
cannons and other close combat weapons on them
in addition to the flakey missile systems.
\_ There exist missiles that home in on the wake from
a ship.
\_ This guy thinks they are dangerous: http://tinyurl.com/n4fw2
\_ Ummm.. I don't know about the torpedo, but that dude is
obviously a fruitcake.
\_ Will he fit in a torpedo tube? |
| 2006/4/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:42604 Activity:nil |
4/1 Why does Esquire claim navy is the most versatile suit color?
It seems to me that charcoal would be...
\_ Greys and blacks can appear too somber for many events. A dark
navy suit is appropriate at somber events like funerals as well as
more typical, festive events. -dans |
| 2006/3/25-27 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:42431 Activity:nil |
3/25 Lego Aircraft Carrier:
http://www.ezprezzo.com/crazypics/lego_aircraft_carrier.html |
| 2006/3/10-13 [Academia/Berkeley, Reference/Military] UID:42177 Activity:moderate |
3/10 It had to happen eventually
http://media.putfile.com/Tim-Treadwell-bear-attack - danh
\_ It happened because Timothy was reckless. Living with bears gave
him as much rush as having unprotected sex with random hookers.
He played roulette. He won most of the time. But chance caught up.
\_ It's possible this is a the real audio, but the text doesn't fit
the facts terribly well.
\_ How so? It seems to fit from what I know.
\_ They found more than just "2 skulls" and I'm pretty sure the
bear(s) wouldn't be "eating him alive"
\_ What are you talking about? That's not on that link...
\_ [whoops, nevermind]
\_ http://csua.org/u/f7d (away.com)
http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/Tim_Treadwell.html
It's probably the real audio, or two minutes out of six.
The text may not be accurate (more mauling than eating).
Basically the "Play dead" trick doesn't work if the salmon run
just ended, you've camped out on top of the bear trail to the
salmon run (so you can meet more bears), it's an old bear who
can't compete with the younger ones and is really hungry, it
weighs 1000 pounds, it's just before hibernation time, it
surprised you by putting your head in its mouth while you were
up close trying to make nice with it, and the best armament
your buddy has is a frying pan.
\_ I wish they hadn't shot the bear, or the younger one that
was in the area. The bear was just being a bear. No reason
to shoot it. They could have tranq'd it or scared it.
\_ No, once a bear has identified humans as prey, it
will tend to attack again. That's why nimrods like
this guy are really hurting the animals. -tom
this guy are really hurting the animals. -tom, bear expert
\_ http://www.udap.com
Bear (pepper) spray, with video re-enactment and Bear Safety Tips!
\_ Sounds fake to me. |
| 2006/3/7-9 [Reference/Military] UID:42122 Activity:kinda low |
3/7 Saw Lord of War last night and thought that while the subject matter
is disturbing (and the movie was a bit preachy about it), the acting,
the writing, and the direction really carried it off. And yes, I was
the guy who disliked Weather Man. --erikred
\_ it's disturbing because it has a bit of truth in it?
\_ Truth? What truth? The movie had more errors and generalizations
than a Michael Moore film. Legal arms shipments by the perm.
members of the security does not equal what the five composited
gun runners Yuri was based did.
\_ shrug. i'm getting here:
http://csua.org/u/f5v (script-o-rama.com)
"While private gunrunners continue to thrive, the world's
biggest arms suppliers are the U.S., UK, Russia, France and
China." I assume that means dollar amounts, not number of
firearms. I assume things like F-16's, Mirages, missiles,
tanks, destroyers, air defense systems, etc. tip the scale
in favor of the countries over the independents.
In terms of number of firearms, shrug, I bet the "used" AK-47,
RPG, etc. market is a bigger or comparable share to
brand-spanking new + refurb rifles sold by the 5 govts.
Generalizations, yes. Errors, please point out a serious one:
I want to learn.
\_ it was gr8, just like I wrote on motd -someone else
\_ I was disappointed. I expected a darkly humorous, edgier, more
Nicholas Cage film. In the end it almost played more like a
documentary to me. --dbushong
\_ Gold plated guns! What more do you want?
\_ I enjoyed the film, but I couldn't take it seriously. Also, I felt
like Cage wasn't convincing... I always see him acting roughly the
same, and he's too recognizable. I would have preferred an unknown |
| 2006/2/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:41844 Activity:high |
2/14 Poll: Do you wish that Harry Whittington would die so that Dick Cheney
can get arrested and charged for involuntary manslaughter?
Yes: .
No:
You're insane: ..
No, and it's time for a change in your meds: ..
You're way fucking stupidly ridiculously madly beyond belief insane: ..
\_ No, because Whittington will suddently became a "terrorist suspect"
and die of "natural causes" in one of those secret detention center
somewhere in Egypt. Cheney will get out of jail.. free.
\_ What if he did die in the next few days?
\_ So what's gonna happen to Dick Cheney? Basically nothing right?
It's nice to be the vice president.
\_ It's good to be the king.
\_ What would happen if you accidentally shot an old friend while
hunting? If the victim or family refuses to press charges,
the worst that would happen is you'd lose your hunting license.
\_ Involuntary manslaughter, maybe reckless endagerment type
charges if you were a dumbass.
\_ Only if he dies. And reckless endangerment requires
witnesses and cooperation from the victim.
\_ Probably not if the victim contributed to his own death
by failing to use normal rules of hunting.
\_ Ah, the Swift Boating begins...
\_ Huh? All I'm saying is that if the victim didn't
use ordinary care and follow the common rules of
safety in hunting then the VP is not at fault.
If however, as the post below suggests, the victim
was using ordinary care, then the VP is at fault
and should be punished accordingly.
Personally I think hunting is leem and that one
assumes the risk that people will die whenever
one walks around w/ a loaded gun. But it is
entirely possible that I don't understand the
importance of hunting b/c of thousands of years
of cultural bias towards strict vegetarianism.
importance of hunting due to a strong historical
bias towards non-violence and vegetarianism.
\_ If someone is hit by a hunter, it is ALWAYS
the hunter's fault.
You are responsible for where and what you
shoot. Period.
\_ "Ultimately, I'm the guy who pulled the
trigger that fired the round that hit Harry,"\
"You can talk about all the other conditions
trigger that fired the round that hit Harry,"
"You can talk about all the other conditions
that existed at the time, but that's the
bottom line" "It was not Harry's fault,"
"You can't blame anybody else. I'm the guy
who pulled the trigger and shot my friend.
It's a day I'll never forget."
-Dick Cheney, at a press conference today
Now close your eyes and try to imagine
George Bush ever taking responsibility for
his actions like this.
\_ I disagree. If you are hunting and some
guy jumps into the line of fire, that is
not your fault. The only thing you could
to was to NOT hunt. Even I think that
asking people to give up hunting is too
much.
Also think of the self defense case, if
the person is being attacked by a large
bear or bison or some such and fires his
gun at the animal but hits someone else
b/c he was flustered, it is not reasonable
to think that a person should not have
taken means to protect themselves on the
chance that someone might be hurt.
\_ The rules exist for a reason. If you don't follow
them and get shot... shrug.
\_ gee, I could have sworn that one of the rules
is "don't shoot people." -tom
\_ I don't know anything about quail hunting, and
I'm not ready to take a side here, but what
if they had been target shooting, and the
shooting victim had been hanging out behind the
target area? Wouldn't it be his fault then?
I think the claim the defenders are making
is that this is roughly equivalent. Personally,
it seems to me that their "safety rules" are
bunk and that quail hunting with shotguns
is simply a retarded activity.
shooting victim had been hanging out behind
the target area? Wouldn't it be his fault
then? I think the claim the defenders are
making is that this is roughly equivalent.
Personally, it seems to me that their
"safety rules" are bunk and that quail
hunting with shotguns is simply a retarded
activity.
\_ From CNN: Whittington shot a bird and went
to retrieve it in the tall grass, while
Cheney and the third hunter walked to
another spot and discovered a second covey.
Whittington "came up from behind the vice
president and the other hunter and didn't
signal them or indicate to them or announce
himself," Armstrong said. "The vice
president didn't see him," she continued.
"The covey flushed and the vice president
picked out a bird and was following it and
shot. And by God, Harry was in the line of
fire and got peppered pretty good."
--So it sounds like the VP turned around to
shoot the bird. That suggests that the
victim wasn't putting himself in the way of
fire.
\_ I think this supports my claim that
quail hunting with shotguns in this
manner is just retarded. The idea that
you're going out with a group of people
and shooting an animal that's going to
move a significant distance between the
time that you sight it in and the time
you pull the trigger, using a weapon
that sprays shot around seems destined
for accidents. This is supported by
the various other quail hunters who've
said that they've also gotten "peppered".
What the fuck? How many responsible deer
hunters do you think would talk casually
about getting "winged" by a riffle bullet
from one of their hunting buddies? None.
It seems to me that the VP is really just
guilty of participating in an assanine,
intrinsically dangerous sport.
\_ If you don't shoot quail with a
shotgun then what would you do
instead?
\_ What a strange question. Read
a book? Go for a bike ride?
Go shooting at a gun range?
Shooting quail is pretty near the
bottom of my list of things I'd
like to try. Particularly since
I hate the taste of bird meat.
\_ Not strange. I think you
misunderstood the question.
I suspect PP was asking "if you
don't use a shotgun, then what
*would* you use?".
\_ You miss the part about wandering around
in an area where his buddies are known
to be shooting and not announcing
himself? Weird how you can quote that
whole thing, cherry pick a line and then
flip the entire thing around to mean
something entirely different from what
you quoted. Do you wish he'd killed the
guy so Cheney could be up on charges?
\_ First: if the guy came up behind the
VP, that means the VP had to turn
180 to face and shoot him; also, it
is customary NOT to make noise when
approaching fellow hunters from behind
because you might spook the birds.
Second: your line about wondering
if I wanted Whittington to die reveals
that you're really not interested in
a serious, non-political discussion.
\_ I'm not a quaill hunter and suspect
you're not either, but from your
quote, it appears that making
noise in order to not get shot is
considered more important than your
buddies missing a kill. Since this
thread was started a poll asking
if we wanted the guy to die so
Cheney could face charges, it was
completely in context and
appropriate for me to ask if you
wanted him to die.
\_ I apologize for misunderstanding
I thought we'd moved passed that
silliness and were now on to
whether the VP or Whit were to
blame. From the way the story
has been reported, Whit acted
within reason for the activity.
The VP did not. The ultimate
responsibility for ANY hunting
accident rests with the person
who was holding the gun.
\_ np. Yes, pulling the trigger
is serious business but so is
going anywhere you know
triggers are being pulled. I
wouldn't walk out in a live
fire army shooting range and
expect to live or blame the
poor private who killed me.
\_ Which is why, if Whit
doesn't die, there will
likely be no charges filed
against the VP. If he
dies, however, this
could become negligent
homocide or even involun-
tary manslaughter.
\_ This is complete crap. The VP
fucked up. The number two rule
of firing a gun is to know
what you are shooting at and
what is behind it. This is a
clear cut case of bad judgement.
The fact that he had to turn
to shoot and did not know the
location of all members of the
hunting party is HIS fault.
This is especially important
when hunting game and birds like
quail which are low flyers.
blame. From the way the story
has been reported, Whit acted
within reason for the activity.
The VP did not. The ultimate
responsibility for ANY hunting
accident rests with the person
who was holding the gun.
\_ Put your shit in the right
place. You interrupted my
response to the more
reasonable person above.
So tell us how many times
you've been quail hunting?
\_ That might be a question
worth asking as a new
thread. Has anyone here
ever hunted quail? I know
a lot of hunters, but I
don't think I even know
anyone who's hunted quail.
Maybe it's just a southern
thing?
\_ Fixed.
\_ Why all the fuss? If Whittington was really pissed off, he would
have shot back. That's why everyone has guns.
\_ GUN DUEL!
\_ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060215/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_legal_4
Cheney could face charges. |
| 2006/2/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/Military] UID:41835 Activity:moderate |
2/14 Laser guns to be deployed in Iraq:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002170.html
\_ "But 10 months later . and after a prototype destroyed about 90% of
the IEDs laid in its path during a battery of tests . not a single
JIN has been shipped to Iraq," the Times notes.
So, uh, I assume it doesn't magically find IEDs on its own (which
seems like the actual problem). Couldn't an M-16 barrage destroy
90% of known IEDs in one's path?
\_ We don't like to litter M-16 shells
\_ It would drive in front of convoys and detonate any IEDs
in the way, rather like a minesweeper of sorts. It "finds"
them by blowing them up if they exist.
\_ ? How does that work? Is it just shooting lightning all
over the place?
\_ "JIN would sweep dangerous areas clear of bombs before
U.S. troops entered."
\_ Reading more about it (in other articles) I think my
characterization is wrong. I wonder if they have
multiple products?
\_ Kind of. The idea is to saturate a volume of space with
very short bursts of lightning. That should be sufficient to
detonate or render useless any IEDs in the area.
\_ Watch this video: http://www.ionatron.net/default.aspx?id=105
Essentially, it has an extended arm that sweeps over an area.
The arm is shooting, straight down, the aforementioned
femto-second laser pulses. The end result is an explosion or
a shorting out of the IED. Yes, this could damage the unit.
a shorting out of the IED. Yes, this could damage the g-unit.
\_ In WW2, they had tanks with large horizontal rollers/bars
that had numerous heavy chains attached that spun around
the roller setting off mines. How is this any different
except that it requires hi-tek, a lot of cleaning and will
break more easily?
\_ Some IEDs are cell-phone operated. Beating the ground
with chains might set off mines, but it wouldn't
necessarily set off an IED or disable it. |
| 2006/2/13-15 [Science/Electric, Reference/Military] UID:41814 Activity:nil |
2/13 How long until they build them 80 feet tall, with laser guns and
a hot green-haired chick pilot with huge eyes?
http://tinyurl.com/dhnbn -John
\_ Same company's working on that, too:
http://www.hsworks.co.jp/CB.html
\_ Can't wait for their partnership with <DEAD>www.realdoll.com!<DEAD>
\_ Well, that wins the creepy award. |
| 2006/2/7-9 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41746 Activity:nil 90%like:41744 |
2/7 http://csua.org/u/ex5 (http://www.editorandpublisher.com Them libruls just hates the troops... mmmhmm.... |
| 2006/2/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41745 Activity:nil |
2/7 http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm "She extended Martin's message against poverty, racism and war. She deplored the terror inflicted by our smart bombs on missions way afar. We know now that there were no weapons of mass destruction over there," Lowery said. The mostly black crowd applauded, then rose to its feet and cheered in a two-minute-long standing ovation. A closed-circuit television in the mega-church outside Atlanta showed the president smiling uncomfortably. ... \_ fyi, for posterity, according to the CNN video, the applause lasted for ~ 15 seconds, and the reverend didn't appear to expect it. also, it appears the applause was much greater for Bill Clinton. -op \_ This is precisely why Drudge is useless. Did he "nod his head toward the row of presidents..." on the "misdirection" line in your viewing? |
| 2006/2/7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41744 Activity:nil 90%like:41746 |
2/7 http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001958360 Them libruls just hates the troops... mmmhmm.... |
| 2006/2/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:41681 Activity:nil |
2/2 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1573959&page=2 $1.3 BILLION dollars to buy FIVE Joint Strike Fighters. You've got to be shitting me right? \_ The Generals are always fighting the last war. \_ That's not that much for a new plane. It's probably 3000 engineers working for 5 years or more to design and build that. If you want to be shocked look at the submarine - $2.5 billion and its not a new design, AFAIK. BTW, I just checked and the JSFs will cost about $50 million each when built in quantity. \_ Plus the fact that they will be sold to "allies" once production gets up to full speed. \_ Cheap. If they're even half as good as the hype they're worth it. The best war is the one you don't have to fight because the other guy doesn't bother showing up. A sub for $2.5B isn't so bad either. That's what? 2 days in Iraq? What's a carrier cost these days? Add that to the cost of the air craft on board, the support fleet of subs, DDs, CAs, etc, and see how much a fleet costs. Policing the world isn't cheap. Buying top notch planes is dirt cheap for what they do. is dirt cheap for what they do. |
| 2006/1/31-2/1 [Reference/Military] UID:41611 Activity:kinda low |
1/31 Never bring a rifle to a tank fight -John
http://www.youtube.com/w/rifle-tank-battle?v=VV41UM7oh_4&search=tanks
\_ in bed.
\_ Also, never try setting up a tank battle at home:
http://caricatura.ru/parad/saveliev/pic/6537.jpg
\_ RIDE BIKE!
\_ Unless you happen to have a M67 Recoilless Rifle.
\_ Eh, not really. You probably mean something more like an
FGM-148...though that's not really a reckless, and would ruin
the 'joke'. The '67 is *really* outdated and mostly useless
against modern armor.
\_ I agree that these days you would use a Javelin, but
that damn thing is a missle launcher. The M67 is the
last infantry weapon classified as "recoilless rifle"
so its the only one that would work as part of the joke.
\_ I agree that these days you would use a Javelin against
a tank, but that isn't a recoilless rifle. The M67 was
the last weapon I knew about that was called a recoilless
rifle, so I used that to make the joke work. |
| 2006/1/25-26 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41512 Activity:nil |
1/24 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060124/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/army_breaking_point Something the Iranian president would be happy to hear. \_ didn't our Great Leader say something about not giving comfort to the enemy? Go Dubya! |
| 2006/1/4-6 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:41216 Activity:low |
12/4 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060103/od_nm/germany_airport_dc German passengers filed "false imprisonment" after plane delay. \_ 7+ hours stuck in a cramped airplane. I'd call that bullshit. At least let the passengers back into the airport lounge. \_ I'm convinced that this is the *only* reason they have that "no cell phone use" rule on planes. It keeps people from calling lawyers and cops in these situations. \_ Yeah, except that the FAA counts an "on time" departure if the plane is away from the terminal even if you sit on the tarmac for hours. Which is probably why the pilot didn't want to return to the terminal. \_ or more specifically, when the aircraft door closes - this timestamps the departure. When aircraft door reopens at destination, this is the official arrival time. Going back to the subject, why can't they just cancel the damn flight? \_ My wife and I got stuck on a plane in London for 6 hours after they found the wingflaps faulty. They said they couldn't allow the passengers back in the terminal because we had cleared customs. On the plus side, they said we were clear to enjoy any duty free goods because we had technically "left the country" (the plane actually took off, flew for 30 minutes, and then returned to London when the faulty equipment was discovered.) when the faulty equipment was discovered.) -bz \_ We were stuck in a plane on the runway for 6 hours (once we got off the ground it was a 6 hour flight) I'm never flying through Newark again. --dbushong \_ There was a case sometime in the last 5 years of a plane being stuck on the runway for more than 10 hours, maybe as much as 20 (I forget the exact incident.) -John |
| 2005/12/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:41009 Activity:moderate |
12/13 Haha. McCain no-torture amendment says "Follow the Army Field Manual."
Pentagon changes field manual. Go Dubya!
\_ So do we have to have a three screen long flame war about the
definition of the word "lie" to say Rice was lying now? Or can
we just agree that she was lying right through her teeth by
any definition?
\_ ObThatDependsOnWhatTheDefinitionOfIsIs.
\_ It's a lie whatever we say is a lie.
\_ url?
\_ http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/14/politics/14detain.html |
| 2005/12/7 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:40893 Activity:nil |
12/7 Rat brain cells learn to fly a F-22:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Rats-Make-Good-F-22-Pilots-14299.shtml |
| 2005/12/6-7 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:40880 Activity:moderate |
12/6 Pesky journalists!
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/06/D8EAVS3O3.html
"A plane loaded with Iranian journalists ... At least 128 people were
killed -- 34 on the ground ... the plane appeared to be circling the
airport when its tail suddenly burst into flames, leaving a smoke trail
as it plummeted ... The C-130 is built by Lockheed ..."
\_ Hmm, that seems odd. It was having engine trouble, then the
tail burst into flames? The C-130 doesn't have any engines in
the tail.
\_ Any gas tanks near the tail?
\_ Suicide bombers always travel in economy. -John
\_ That's because they get free upgrades. "Madam, either you
give me that empty seat in the First Class or I'll press
the trigger."
\_ And demand free upgrades mid-flight. "Madam, either you
give me that empty seat in the First Class now, or I'll
press the trigger."
\_ You mean "I demand a seat in heaven!" <boom>
\_ gas tanks are usually in the wings. Tails usually have the
power generation unit, which looks a lot like an engine.
\_ No idea. I only know of the ones in the wings, here's some
info though. http://csua.org/u/e77
\_ Another 9/11.
\_ I think it's CIA's work. I mean, we are quite experienced at
taking down Iranian planes, no?
\_ The Iranians are quite good at crashing planes all on their own.
\_ I'll tell you why we know the CIA wasn't behind the crash: the
planes crashed, didn't they? |
| 2005/12/5-6 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40849 Activity:nil |
12/5 Excellent segment from CSPAN.
Disinformation: 22 Media Myths that Undermine the War
on Terror
You can listen here:
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev110105b.cfm
\_ This isn't "from CSPAN", it's from a Heritage Foundation
neocon, author of "Losing bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's
Failures Unleashed Global Terror". Other upcoming events:
"The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred
Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought." Get a clue. -tom |
| 2005/11/30-12/3 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:40787 Activity:kinda low |
11/30 TSA to announce Friday that some scissors less than 4 inches long will
now be permitted in carry-on baggage, since 25% of bags with an illegal
item have ... small scissors! Flight attendants still prefer they get
screened, but who cares about them.
\- that kinda funny ... my father just got busted for this on tue.
\_ TSA has always allowed EMT shears (blunt scissors)
\_ As long as they aren't useful to someone with their jaw wired
shut. YMWTGF 'TSA "wired jaw"'
\_ I took a can of almonds with me on my flight which had a very
sharp aluminum lid on them. I even cut myself opening them. I
think the whole security thing is stupid beyond belief.
\_ Speaking of which.. what happened to all those kids in green
uniforms with F-16 rifles? Were the poor sobs all sent to
Iraq?
\_ F-16 rifles? Those sound pretty unwieldy.
\_ They come with shoulder straps, but they sometimes get
tangled in the landing gear.
\- those don't exist! unlike the GU-11 veritech gun pod,
although it's best in battloid or guardian modes
\_ That's battloid and _gerwalk_ to all you souls
uncorrupted by Robotech.
\_ Definitely the most maneuverable rifle on the market.
\_ You mean M-16?
\_ I'll care when I don't have to take my shoes off when going through
security.
\_ From now on your nickname is plutonium shoes.
\_ 5/7 times I flew (SJC<->LAX) I didn't have to take off my shoes.
And I'm middle-eastern. I've also stopped getting "randomly"
screened every single time I fly. --swarthy male
\_ I used to get searched *every time* I flew. I think it was
beacause I tended to buy my tickets at the last minute and
because I tended to buy my tickets at the last minute and
online. I look about as white as you possibly can, so I
don't think it's just racial profiling.
\_ Swarthy male... do you feel you are being targeted for
randomn searches?
\_ Can't speak for swarthy male, but my hot blonde friend
claims she is being targeted.
claims she is being targeted, especially when she is
travelling abroad.
\_ They're just trying to find excuses to conduct body
search on her.
\_ how did the hijackers during 9/11 get control of the planes?
was it just through the use of box cutters? didnt read the
report or anything. |
| 2005/11/24-28 [Reference/Military] UID:40726 Activity:nil |
11/23 "Lockpicking" with guns:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5.htm
\- i shot the lock, and the lock won
\_ I wonder if you get the same effect with 12 gague #2 or smaller.
The trouble is if you're busting locks in a closed space you could
easily get some back at you.
\_ Shoot it and then hammer it with the body of the handgun. |
| 2005/11/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:40656 Activity:nil |
11/19 \_ Iraq Gun Porn: Which Guns Suck, Which Guns Rock
Which commonly used weapons in Iraq do our brave soldiers give
the thumbs up to and which do they thumb their nose at? Here is
a review. http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/133585.php
\_ Yeah, this was posted a few days ago.
\_ What is the point of saying this?
\_ Cool. But why is this called Porn? |
| 2005/11/15-17 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40598 Activity:nil |
11/15 Amusing reviews of the weapons used in Iraq. (Later it turns into
go-america type stuff. You can skip that if you like)
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/133585.php
\_ Interesting stuff, mostly new information for me.
But scroll to near the bottom for a post that challenges it. |
| 2005/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:40490 Activity:moderate |
11/8 Cruise Ship Escapes Pirate Hijack Attempt
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051105/ap_on_re_af/pirate_attack
Ship's Passengers Recall Pirate Attack
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051107/ap_on_re_af/seychelles_pirate_cruise
What kind of cruise ship is it that can outrun speedboat? Or, what
kind of lame speedboat is it that can't even catch up with a cruise
ship!!?? And what kind of lame pirates would use such a speedboat?
\_ "two 25-foot inflatable boats" I suspect that heavily loaded
inflatable boats are not that fast. Probably better
acceleration, but lower top speed.
\_ Still, they can't outrun a 440-foot-long, 10,000-ton cruise ship?
That's still lame.
\_ They probably didn't outrun, per se. With no way to board or
stop the ship, when the cruise ship set out to open sea, the
pirates probably just gave up.
\_ Modern luxury liners can hit almost 30 knots. Some lame
Somali rustbucket may not make that much. -John
\_ The rigid inflatable boats the US Navy uses have
a top speed of 45 knots, but a cruise speed of
only 30 knots - and that's a boat the US military
uses. I'm gonna guess the speedboats were faster,
but not much faster and have a shorter range.
\_ Once again, khat-addled Somali thugs. Have a look
at link:tinyurl.com/9mynz -- "speedboat" is an
optimistic description. -John
\_ They went 100 miles offshore in that?
\_ Look up Thor Heyerdahl. Where there's a will
there's a way. Some of the slow freighters,
private yachts or tankers modern pirates
take are well worth it. Anda cruise ship
will not deviate course because some random
blip is near it--it will probably just try
to avoid ramming. -John
\_ The more I think about it, the more surprised I
am that the thugs got that close. A radar blip
from something on an intercept course within 10
miles of me? If I can't talk to it, I run from it.
A possible terrorist strike would be my primary
worry, especially 100 miles out on a ship full of
American/European tourists.
\_ Even more lame is that, why did the pirates fire their guns when
they approach the cruise ship if their speedboats aren't that fast?
They should have quietly approached and climbed up the ship before
waking up everybody with gunfire.
\_ The problem is that there is no easy way to "climb" up the ship.
The ships are built for easy access to docks not to those at
sea level. The shooting was probably out of frustration.
\_ The article says they were trying to disable the ship
with their shooting.
\_ It's like shooting BBs at a elephant. You need to know
where to hit and then get lucky hitting it.
\_ Eh, not so much with RPG's.
\_ I thought climbing up ships from sea level are pirates'
specialty. Isn't it their main way of hijacking ships?
\_ Most piracy deals with much smaller, slower ships. Small
frieghters, fishing boats, that sort of thing. Built much
lower and substatially easier to access.
\_ These guys are primitive thugs. Like op, they probably thought
"speed boat _must_ be faster than cruise ship." -John
\_ Per /., it looks like the cruise ship used a sonic weapon to
deter their pursuers:
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/breaking_news/13106303.htm
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_range_acoustic_device
very cool. |
| 2005/11/5-6 [Reference/Military] UID:40460 Activity:nil |
11/5 WMD: US Navy style: http://tinyurl.com/b9qfc |
| 2005/11/4-8 [Consumer/PDA, Reference/Military] UID:40436 Activity:nil |
11/4 Handheld laser gun:
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000253066406 |
| 2005/11/3-8 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:40429 Activity:moderate |
11/3 In the good old days, we count 'casuaties,' not 'death' in a conflict.
I am just wondering do we even keep track of 'casuaties' in Golf War 2?
Where can we get them?
\_ http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
19,219
\_ http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf -- ~15k casualties
\_ Disappointed that the American death toll is too low?
\_ Just want to make sure I am comparing apple to apple when I
am making comprison... I am just wondering what is the
'casualty rate' of our little Iraqi Advanture here. My guess
is that the 'casualty rate' is bit more than 1/20, which is
pretty high.
\_ About 14000 casualties. I don't know how you calculate
the rate.
\_ 14k out of 250k forces in Iraq?
\_ But how many have cycled through?
\_ What were the casualties rates in other wars like WWII or
Vietnam War?
\_ The problem with casualties is that they run the gamut from
a bump on the head received during combat to blinding and
maiming. The number of amputees, as compared to the number
of deaths, is far higher for this war than for any other.
\_ Bump on the head? I thought casualty only counts wounds serious
enough to take a person out of action.
\_ I am pretty sure "casualty" is a guy (or gal) that you have
to evacuate. A RTD (return to duty) kind of scratch or bump
does not count. -ausman (former Army medic)
does not count. -ausman (former Army colonel)
\_ this is what concerns me. I have been told repeately that
many of these 'wounded' would of died even 10 years ago.
this translates that these guys are not dead, which is good
politically. But what kind of disabilities would they
suffer as result? That is the big cost of our little
Iraq war that most people don't think about. |
| 2005/11/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:40380 Activity:low |
11/1 How would one go about buying a fully-auto AK-47 in the U.S. and finding
a range where you can get away with firing it?
\_ You'll need be in a state that allows personal ownership of a
machine gun or have a FFL 3 license. Finding the range is secondary.
http://www.vectorarms.com/instructions/how_to_own.html
\_ Thanks! I actually had assumed these weapons were flat-out
illegal, but in my state this does not look so hard.
\_ If I was going through the trouble of getting an FFL 3 license
I would rather get an M16. Much more accurate =)
\_ My coworkers own several. I live in Nevada. |
| 2005/10/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:40097 Activity:moderate |
10/14 Fist, your newest weapon of terror:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/14/plane.punch.ap
\_ Hulk Smash!
\- some how the subhead of the article,
'Perhaps it was some sort of psychotic episode'
reminds me of csua current events. |
| 2005/10/11-13 [Reference/Military] UID:40043 Activity:nil |
10/11 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011/ap_on_bi_ge/spitzer_stun_guns Taser/stun guns illegal in NYC? So much for the duel. |
| 2005/10/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:39943 Activity:nil |
10/1 Can someone explain what exactly the term "thirty ought six" means?
Google does not help me since I don't know how to write that
numerically.
\_ I've found forcing wikipedia on google helps a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield
\_ Thanks!
\_ Next time just call a gun store and admit you are interested in
this non-PC (at least in CA) sport. BTW This will go thru
most police body armor like hot knife thru butter.
\_ just about any ammo from a rifle will go through
any sort of body armor. |
| 2005/9/21-23 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:39801 Activity:nil |
9/21 Gentle humming gives aircrafts a better lift:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1574553,00.html
\_ So I should hum the Koran loudly to make the plane fly better
\_ "Hello honey. ...... Hey, what's that moaning in the background?"
"Oh, the stewardess and I are just trying to help the plane fly."
"Oh, the stewardess and I are humming to help the plane fly." |
| 2005/9/20-22 [Reference/Military] UID:39776 Activity:nil |
9/20 Gun people: this is a pretty interesting site to browse:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm |
| 2005/9/15 [Reference/Military] UID:39695 Activity:nil |
9/15 Come on all of you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs your help again
he's got himself in a terrible jam
way down yonder in Viet Nam so
put down your books and pick up a gun we're
gonna have a whole lotta fun
(CHORUS)
And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam
And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die
Come on generals, let's move fast
your big chance has come at last
now you can go out and get those reds
cos the only good commie is the one that's dead and
you know that peace can only be won when we've
blown 'em all to kingdom come
Come on wall street don't be slow
why man this war is a go-go
there's plenty good money to be made by
supplying the army with the tools of its trade
let's hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
they drop it on the Viet Cong
Come on mothers throughout the land
pack your boys off to Viet Nam
come on fathers don't hesitate
send your sons off before it's too late
and you can be the first ones on your block
to have your boy come home in a box |
| 2005/9/9-11 [Reference/Military] UID:39604 Activity:nil |
9/9 Remember that cop you said would take a bullet for me? More
likely he would put a bullet in my back:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1481151/posts?q=1&&page=51
\_ This is my favorite part: "Police officers in Gretna also went
into the city's lone sporting goods store and pawn shop and removed
more than 1,400 weapons from the shelves to ensure the public
safety."
\_ If I were a (non-crooked) cop, I'd do the same
\_ Ob please note "to ensure the *public* safety [emphasis
added]". Hilarity ensues. |
| 2005/9/9-13 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Reference/Military] UID:39594 Activity:kinda low Cat_by:auto |
9/9 http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-sailor9sep09,0,3280311.story COMPTON--... Hipolito, his wife and his 16-year-old brother had been looking at CDs, passing the hour it would take for their car stereo to be repaired. ... two assailants had asked the brothers: Where are you from, what gang? The Hipolitos said they were from nowhere, no gang. Osiel Hipolito ... told the men: I'm in the U.S. Navy. ... Sheriff's officials said the Hipolitos had no connection to any gang activity ... Then the gunman starts shooting with a semiautomatic weapon, first at Hipolito, who falls to the ground, and then into the abdomen of his wife ... -jblack \_ Please don't ascribe posts to me I have nothing to do with. This seems to be happening on a daily basis. As if I even read the LA Times. -jblack \_ Congratulations! You finally signed your name for the first time ever! Tell us how it feels. Come on, don't be shy... \_ To paraphrase John Kerry on his life-changing secret mission into Cambodia on Christmas Eve, it is a life changing experience. \_ And you're one to talk... why? -jrleek \_ Justin, I find it interesting that while you signed your name to clarify that you're not the original poster, you make no attempt to reject the accusation below that you're a racist. Now that we're clear on your stance on race, and you seem darn open about it, is there anything else you'd want us to know about you? Do you also hate Jews and fags? How about these damn foreigners taking our jobs? Please respond to this thread, otherwise I'll take your silence as yes and yes about these damn foreigners taking our jobs? \_ I've always been told that if you get into a fight with a swine, you both get dirty, but the swine likes it dirty. That may or may not have anything to do about jblack's reluctance to engage his attacker. - !jblack \_ So it makes no difference what you say, really. They just need to shoot someone. I'm sure you'll get shot at no matter what. \_ No. This is what you say: "It is against the law for you to attack me, and I am calling the police." Remember, the police is there to protect you. \_ Yes, Justin Black (jblack@eecs.berkeley.edu and jblack@csua.berkeley.edu), we know that you hate nigers, beaners, I hate bad spellers _/ -!jblack chinks, and what not. Is there anything else you want to add? \_ I love how you treat this like some kind of contest between you and jblack to see who can be the bigger butt-hole. Even more amazing is that you seem to be winning. \_ As long as you classify him as a butthole, I don't care what you call me. Thank you. I'll worker harder from now on. \_ You do realize that all you're doing it to cause some of feel sympathy for jblack. \_ Yes, it's called the Rove tactic. jblack knows what he is doing when he insults himself. Go Bush!!! |
| 2005/9/8-10 [Reference/Military] UID:39573 Activity:nil |
9/8 The Circle is complete: Mexican army convoy rolls into storm-affected
states with supplies:
http://tinyurl.com/7ud2z (Reuters) |
| 2005/9/6-7 [Reference/Military] UID:39524 Activity:low |
9/6 Dear John and ilyas, please proceed with the duel. I'm willing to
lend you guys my taser guns. Why taser guns? Because it is safer
than guns yet equally effective. Also I just want to see my new
taser guns work in action. I'll setup a place where you guys
can duel. How does Foster City sound? I know a perfect place for
this kind of stuff, at this long, beautiful bridge in near where
I live. Ilyas, since you have no friends you're more than welcome
to stay at my apartment.
\_ Tell you what, I was trolled while in a foul mood and responded a
lot more aggressively than I should have. I also duly apologized
to ilyas. I do, however, invite ilyas to join me in challenging
you to a GUN DUEL. Are you scared? -John
\_ In all seriuosness, a quake death match tournament between
the various motd trolls would be fun.
\_ I think you've been trolled, man.
\- they have decided to resolve it by DUELING BANJOS. --zell@soda
\_ SQUEAL LIKE A PIG BOY!
\_ He shore does have a purdy mouth.
\_ I have a couple of 1911s you can choose from.
\_ I'd love to see a wimpy nerd zapping a big German coward, or
the other way around. The thought of them electricuting each
other, with the shaking and the sparks... it'll be quite a show.
They should open up a Hate Duel Shop where two opponents settle
their score by each depositing money in an account (the shop takes
X% of the deposit), and let the two duel using sticks, tasers,
or some other non-legal but effective weapons. The winner takes
the entire pot. This is much more entertaining and much more
profitable than say, Small Claims.
\_ Cool, heil cherman john guy got a little helper! It's an
especially nice touch how you throw out seemingly relevant
insults, including "coward", anonymously. -John
\_ this is awesome. what would be even cooler is if one of you guys
shot the other one fatally while holding the office of vp of the
unites states, and later became involved in several attempts to
bring down the us government. --aaron burr #1 fan
\_ Without milk. -John |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Health/Men, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39439 Activity:kinda low |
9/2 "Chaos and gunfire hampered efforts to evacuate the Superdome,
and, Superintendent P. Edward Compass III of the New Orleans
Police Department said, armed thugs have taken control of the
secondary makeshift shelter at the convention center.
Superintendent Compass said that the thugs repelled eight squads
of 11 officers each he had sent to secure the place and that
rapes and assaults were occurring unimpeded in the neighboring
streets as criminals "preyed upon" passers-by, including
stranded tourists."
\_ i.e. white people
link:tinyurl.com/92fwx
Huh .. what's going on?
\_ If there was ever proof that men descended from apes...
\_ Dumb question: Why don't the cops/natl guard/etc. just shoot
anyone who's not a cop/natl guard/etc. and armed on sight?
Ordinarily I wouldn't advocate that, but since every extra day
that people can't get rescued means more people dying, getting
killed & raped it seems like the quickest solution.
\- because they quickly duck underwater and escape to their secret
underwater base.
undersea base.
\_ So you're advocating the murder of citizens who are legitimately
brandishing firearms in an attempt to protect themselves from
the armed thugs? Troll harder.
\_ Now, were you a gun control advocate before this?
\_ Certainly not the only reason, but one reason is this: people
shoot back. How many dead cops would you like to add to the
body count and how is a war on the citizens of NO going to help?
There are so many other reasons why this is bad I'm at a loss
to begin ennumerating them. You're just trolling, right?
\_ Okay, let's just let everyone die then.
\_ Your response is non-responsive. Now I know you're
trolling. Thanks for joining us today.
\_ Same reason why you avoid shooting into any possible area,
civilians. Take the gun safety class. If you are not sure of
your target, don't shoot. Too many video games for you...
\_ Uh, you see a mob of armed thugs ... You shoot them
\_ Is he a thug or a man protecing his family? Did he not
hear you? Does he not recognize your authority? Is there
a child standing behind the wall behind the thug? Where
will your stray shots go? Is my objective to kill or
disarm? If disarm, why am I shooting from a distance?
\_ The media are talking about roving bands of armed men.
Somehow cops all over the country, not to mention all
over the world are capable of making this distinction
on a daily basis yet in NO right now, where it should
be REALLY obvious this suddenly becomes 10X harder?
\_ Nothing says photo op better than cops/troops in
helicopters shooting into the city. And being a cop
is different from being a soldier. Unless there are
lives in immediate danger, cops make sure the shots
they take are 'safe' shots. |
| 2005/8/30-9/2 [Reference/Military] UID:39368 Activity:nil |
8/30 US Army auditor who blew whistle on Halliburton contract is fired:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article309072.ece
\_ In another news Halliburton is hired to rebuild Louisiana. |
| 2005/8/26-29 [Reference/Military] UID:39294 Activity:moderate |
8/26 Okay, I want to buy a gun. I don't need it, but just wanna get
one cause it's fun and cool, and it's one thing I can't do in
most other countries. I lean towards not allowing guns, but
on a personal basis, if it's legal, I feel like exercising my
right and freedom, and also it feels good to annoy mot.
what gun should I get? where can I get a basic gun safety
training? and where can I go shoot?
beretta? glock? s&w revolver? where do I buy them?
\_ Get 2 Desert Eagles in silver and don't look back
\_ If you're in the SF/BA, Target Master's in milpitas is an
excellent indoor shooting range with a great selection of
weapons that you can rent. Their staff is good and willing to
answer questions from novices. My suggestion is to go to a
range where you're comfortable, get your HSC, try out a
selection of weapons in different calibers, then make a
decision. I'd suggest Beretta (92/96), Smith Wesson 490*, HK
USP, or maybe Sig 22*. For a beginner, you might want to start
decision. I'd suggest Beretta (92/96), Smith Wesson 40[03|06|13],
HK USP, or maybe Sig 22*. For a beginner, you might want to start
with a revolver in .22 to get used to handling a firearm, then
granduate to a 9mm semi. Email me if you have questions. -mice
\_ If you're in the SF/BA, Target Master's in milpitas is an excellent
indoor shooting range with a great selection of weapons that you
can rent. Their staff is good and willing to answer questions from
novices. My suggestion is to go to a range where you're
comfortable, try out a selection of weapons in different calibers,
get your HSC, then make a decision. I'd suggest Beretta (92/96),
Smith Wesson 490*, HK USP, or maybe Sig 22*. For a beginner, you
might want to start with a revolver in .22 to get used to handling
a firearm, then granduate to a 9mm semi. Email me if you have
questions. -mice
\_ How about Sig Pro vs. Sig 22*?
\_ Target Masters seconded. http://www.thegunplace.com/range.htm
--erikred
\_ What is a S&W 490*?
\_ Smith and Wesson 4003 TSW, 4006 TSW, 4013 TSW -- typo on my
part. Corrected -- thanks! -mice
\_ Don't get a glock. -- ilyas
\_ So are you guys against all polymer frames or just Glocks? What
about a Sig Pro?
\_ Another thing about glocks I forgot to mention. They, uh ..
they tend to explode. See 'the glock ka-boom faq':
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html -- ilyas
\_ Seconded. -John
\_ Thirded. Damn thing was too small for my hand. --erikred
\_ Fourthed, I guess. I loathed the pull - felt uneven. -mice
\_ Fifthed. Feels like a blocky piece of crap in my
hands. -geordan
\_ I've heard the "don't buy a glock" advice now from
quite a few people who know guns. So if people in the
know all hate them so much, why are they so successful?
Brilliant marketing? What?
\_ They are successful because Glocks have one advantage
-- they are _extremely_ reliable and resistant to
shocks, dirt, sand, water, etc. However, there are
plenty of guns that have comparable durability to
Glocks without all the, well, suck. -- ilyas
\_ The marketing helps too. I just hate the balance on
them--it doesn't feel like a gun. -John
\_ I thought a lot of the law enforcement use was
because of the safety. -geordan
\_ Glocks have a safety? -- ilyas
\_ They have a "trigger safety" and internal
safeties against non-triggered fire.
\_ Not a safety safety. I meant the "dropping
it on the ground" safety. Safeness. Fine,
I'll find a /. article to torture you with.
-geordan
\_ Glocks have almost no safety features. This
makes them very mechanically simple, much
less likely to misbehave in the hands of a
panicky or freaked out cop/soldier, and
very, VERY cheap. It is seen as a true
professional's gun in its stripped down
simplicity. This makes it somewhat less
safe for anyone other than really hardcore
gun people or professionals. That's the
theory, anyhow. *shrug* I still don't like
them very much. As a side note, no
modern semi-auto will (should) fire if
dropped, whether it's in the cocked state,
safetied, decocked, etc. IIRC, James
Bond's Walther PPK was actually notoriously
bad in this respect. -mice
\_ I am not sure I believe this. Lots of
cops shoot themselves in the foot
(literally!) with glocks every year.
It _is_ an excellent gun if you plan
to roam the jungles and fieldstrip it
often enough to appreciate how few parts
there are. -- ilyas
\_ Well, yeah. I know CCCSO considers
the glock an out-of-policy weapon for
exactly that reason. That's partly
why, I believe, it's viewed as a true
professional's weapon -- that if you
don't know what you're doing, you'll
shoot yourself in the foot, etc -- but
that's counterbalanced by the gun's
simplicity/reliability and its ease
of use right out of the holster, etc.
Personally, I think that reputation
speaks of a mentality which has more
to do with machismo and less to do
with pragmatism. I mean, as you
pointed out above, there's no reason
why you can't carry your Smith cocked
and hot...but I think that's a great
way to make an ass of yourself by
shooting your toe off with your own
service weapon. -mice
\_ So if I have small hands it's good?
\_ Maybe. Beretta also makes a 92/96 model with slimmer
grips (the Vertec). -mice
\_ Shooting on a regular basis can get pricy. Owning a gun just to
\_ Highly dependant on caliber, dude. .22 is cheap.
\_ People who shoot regularly often invest in reloading equipment.
This makes shooting significantly less expensive as a hobby.
As a bonus, you can become a powder/ballistics geek. -- ilyas
have a gun is kinda stupid. There are a few places to go for a
handgun safety class. Train and learn first before you start
popping off about gun makers and calibers. Where do you live?
\_ This post added nothing to the thread at all, aside from you
taking the opportunity to declare your semi-informed opinions.
\_ http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Guns/Education
My brother in law (a collector more into rifles than pistols)
says that the Chabot Gun Club is pretty decent. As the
previous poster reiterates, definitely get your HSC before
handling a gun -- it's the absolute minimum in terms of
safety the state of CA requires in order to own. More
advanced casses are highly recommended, though. You could
probably also call Target Master's for better pointers to
other gun clubs that offer classes. This all assumes that
you're in the BA, of course. If not, then you could probably
just call the local gun store (google/yahoo can help find one).
They usually somewhat connected as a community. -mice
says that the Chabot Gun Club is pretty decent. As was said
before, definitely get your HSC before handling a gun -- it's
the absolute minimum in terms of safety the state of CA
requires in order to own. More advanced casses are highly
My brother-in-law (a collector more into rifles than pistols)
says that the Chabot Gun Club is pretty decent. Yeah,
definitely get your HSC before handling a gun -- it's the
absolute minimum in terms of safety the state of CA requires
in order to own. More advanced casses are highly
in order to own. More advanced classes are highly
recommended, though. You could probably also call Target
Master's for better pointers to other gun clubs that offer
classes. This all assumes that you're in the BA, of course.
classes. This all assumes that you're in the SF/BA, of course.
If not, then you could probably just call the local gun store
(google/yahoo can help find one). They usually somewhat
connected as a community. -mice
(google/yahoo/YP can help find one). They're usually somewhat
connected as a community, and are likely to be knowledgable
and willing to help. -mice
\_ Depends on your ergonomics, and if you want a safety. Never
depend on a safety, but many jurisdictions like LA are getting
draconian about "safety features." Some guns have loaded chamber
indicators as well. Like with cars, the imports usually cost
more. But going to any indoor range in CA will never prepare
you for when you really have to use your gun. Get a shotgun
for that. Drop me a line for more. -jlee
\_ I really like my WWII vintage Remington/Colt .45 M1911. It feels
more like an heirloom than a soulless tool, and is a pleasure
to shoot. There was a _lot_ of discussion of "how-to" gun safety
and mechanics type of stuff on the motd about a year ago, look at
KAIS archive; a lot of people mentioned good tips about what to
look out for, where to go, etc. -John
\_ For most things I stick to dual berettas, but I usually
carry a desert eagle or dual ingrams to deal with tricky
situations. -mpayne
\_ I dunno, man. My glock has always served me well -- even in the
most extreme situations. -gfreeman
\_ Word on the street is that you do your best work with your
crowbar.
\_ Guns are for pussies -- I like SWORD! That's a personal
weapon. -lwang
\_ Do any motd people have Class III/Title II or whatever weapons?
Silencers, machineguns?
\_ I hear John has a tank.
\_ I didn't get the tank because I had myself declared psycho
in lieu of having to spend 15 weeks being told by farm boys
to do pushups. I did, however, acquire an arsenal from a
colleague under some weird circumstances recently, and a
friend in Germany has a bunch of machine guns and sniper
rifles and other scary shit. -John
\_ Don't have them, but just two weeks ago I was out visiting
relatives in Atlanta who are in the gun business, and got
to try a whole host of stuff that you can't get in the
good ol' People's Republic of California.
\_ That's the People's Democratic Republic of Kalifornia, fool
\_ Should be Democratic People's Republic of Kalifornia
(DPRK).
\_ I hate the smell of motd humor in the evening.
\_ All hail Kimnold Jongilnegger!
\-Hasta La Vista, PSB
http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/LBL/Gubernator+Chu.jpg
\_ Don't forget to visit http://www.nra.org and sign up
\_ You might want to consider this gun:
http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/1734 |
| 2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:39278 Activity:high |
8/25 Hah, San Francisco is voting to ban handguns in November. -- ilyas
\_ why is that amusing? -tom
\_ Because ilyas is not exactly what you called, a stable person
\_ I suppose I am amused stupidity is alive and well in San
Francisco. -- ilyas
\_ That would never happen in LA.
\_ LA has already banned 50 BMG weapons. Because you know,
they are used in crimes ALL THE TIME. It's a veritable
CRISIS. -- ilyas
\_ cuz this is America biatch!
\- wasnt this tried in a chicago suburb a few yrs ago?
was that case materially different or are they trying to
get inconsistenecies on the books so cert. will be more
likely.
Why is the Deliverator so equipped? Because
people rely on him. He is a roll model. This is
America. People do whatever the fuck they feel
like doing, you got a problem with that?
Becuase they have a right to. And because they
have guns and no one can fucking stop them.
ok tnx.
\_ Because it's almost-but-not-quite as stupid as the Berkeley
"nuclear free zone". I object to them not trying to ban knives
and clubs and ice picks and fruit bats and orang-utangs. -John
\- i dont know what is going on in SF, but the morton grove
law had teeth. it wasnt an essentially symbolic move like
berkeley "nuclear free policy" [or berkeley's various foreign
policy pronouncements]. note that after the law passed the
police didnt "round up" all the guns but were empowed to
keep what they came across. also this law had enough teeth
to be challenged in court. in "reponse" another community
in GA or alabama i believe passed a law requiring the head
of household to have a gun, or something like that.
\- BTW, the morton grove case applied to "handguns" not all
guns.
\_ Yes, like in the UK where you can still have rifles if
you are a member of a gun club. Incidentally, the UK
also has the world's highest rate of video surveillance
and, IMHO, really-fucking-scary big brother-type laws,
such as ASBOs, RIP and PTA. None of which stopped a
sharp rise in knife crimes, burglaries and beatings
since they banned private handgun ownership. Not that
the ban was the direct cause of the rise in non-gun
violent crime, but it certainly didn't help curtail it
in any form. I object to people who have problems with
mandatory waiting periods, background checks or safety
training as prerequisites for gun ownership, but a ban
is the sort of badly thought through populist gut-
reaction you get from "concerned citizens" and
politicians who want to be seen as "doing something".
It's as stupid and irrational as the NRA. -John
\- well fighting it may cost the NRA $ and resources.
\_ Come on, John, the "argument" that they'll just
kill people with knives instead is ridiculous.
England's rate of death by stabbing is at least an
order of magnitude lower than the US's rate of
death by handgun. -tom
\_ Somebody overwrote my reply to this. Tom, re-read
my statement; I did not claim causality. The
problem in the US is NOT GUN CRIME. It is crime,
plain and simple. Americans have this weird
psychotic "ban them" or "pry them from my cold
dead fingers" relationship with guns, neither of
which is a solution. Anyway, about a year after
the handgun ban in the UK, a study found that
non-gun violent crime there was much higher than
in the US. Once again, not causality, but I
stand by my assertion that banning guns simply
does not help; the UK did not have a tremendous
amount of gun homicides before the ban; in the US,
I would assume that other forms of crime would
rise after a ban, yes. -John
\- the gary becker school has claimed if guns
become difficult to find, it will shift the
victim profile toward old people and women
in face to face confrontations, since a hood
will be less inclined to hold up a young
male with "only" a knife.
\_ Another dose of true-but-irrelevant statistics
from Tom. What you should be comparing is, for
instance, murder rates pre and post ban. Or,
more interestingly, crime rates in general pre and
post ban. Or, even more interestingly, the pre
ban gun crime rates (we are talking about three
(3) gun homicides a year). What societal crisis
ban gun crime rates. What societal crisis
was this ban supposed to have solved exactly?
-- ilyas
\_ high murder rate isn't a societal crisis,
right. -tom
\_ Are you claiming England had a high gun
murder rate, pre-ban? Compared to
other countries, and other kinds of murders?
-- ilyas
\_ A handgun ban in San Francisco is particularly
offensive since the SFPD is notorious for simply
ignoring the pleas of citizens to patrol and
protect certain areas. I have a cute female
friend who's rather short of stature that has
recently been forced to take an apartment in
the Tenderloin (long story). She has seen some
incredibly scary shit in her neighborhood in
just the 3 weeks that she's lived there, and
fears for her life. When she saw a gang of
approximately 30 people beating a single man
to death, she called the cops - no response.
Her complaints and calls to various departments
and government offices around the city have all
been met with the same response - basically,
"We don't give a fuck." Not everyone who lives
in the TL is a crackhead or a prostitute, and
it's just insane that the SFPD basically thinks
you're expendable if you have to live there.
Take away the guns, and you probably take away
one of their few options for self-protection.
\_ knock on the nearest manhole and borrow some
weapons from the ninja turtles.
\_ Call them and tell them you and 3 friends are
about to open fire on the guys. -John
\_ Will DiFi be allowed to keep her concealed carry? |
| 2005/8/19-20 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:39182 Activity:low |
8/18 Really, I probably wouldn't admit to this attack
http://csua.org/u/d3a (Yahoo)
\_ Why not? Terrorism and guerilla warfare rely only in part on
intimidating your military opponents into thinking they can be
attacked from anywhere; a large part of the point is to gain
credibility with the kind of gullible young thugs who're easily
impressed with this sort of thing--and what's more daring and
impressive than hitting a US navy warship? -John
\_ Except they didn't. They just killed some random innocent
Jordan soldier. I would file that under "screw up." I see
what you're saying though.
\_ terrorism is weak , nothing more absolute than dropping
a nuke on mecca
\_ That would just incite more retributive attacks. How about
nuking (or really just conventially blowing up) one of those
extremist Islamic schools for every terror attack.
\_ Yeah, cuz killing children doesn't piss anyone off. |
| 2005/8/16-17 [Reference/Military] UID:39142 Activity:kinda low |
8/16 Two plane crashes and one earthquake together. The sky is falling.
\_ they should make the cockpitsbullet proof, chemical proof, and
have a separate safety feature for decompression.
\_ many airliners (737s included) keep cabin emergency O2 and
cockpit emergency O2 separate.
\_ Why is the Greek authority so sure at this early stage that
it's not a terror act? I remember there was a movie where
someone injected something into the AC system, making everyone
else unconscious.
\_ They're not sure it's not a terror act.
\_ I saw article yesterday saying they had ruled it out.
\_ Didn't this particular plane have a number of emergency
decompressions in the past?
\_ My theories:
(1) Either the pilot and co-pilot were taken by surprise
(perhaps by another crewmember), or one of them off'd the
other one.
(2) AC system really fucked up and pumped nasty gases much
faster into the cockpit than the cabin. Unfortunately,
the cabin was locked at the time.
\_ planes should also have an emergency over-ride. If necessary,
ground control can remotely control the plane.
\_ If terrorists on the ground take over the control room ......
\_ have a safety feature where there has to be agreement
between two or more locations in very different locations.
this would be a secret. This system would also help
prevent hijackers from taking over planes and crashing
them into buildings.
\_ "Each ship has it's own combination code..."
"...to prevent an enemy to do what we're attempting; using
our console to order Reliant to lower her shields..."
"Assuming he hasn't change the combination. He's quite
intelligent."
\_ ST:TNG? Which episode?
\_ Are you just trying to bait Star Trek movie guy,
or do you seriously not recognize the ship name
Reliant?
\_ Sounds like a good idea. It probably can't prevent
hijackets from crashing the plane onto ground (he can smash
everything in the cockpit with a suitcase), but it can
prevent crashing into specific targets. |
| 2005/8/14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Reference/Military] UID:39121 Activity:nil |
8/14 Compare and contrast Cindy Sheehan with James Smith
Media Bias: The Press, the Prez and the Parent
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1462436/posts |
| 2005/8/10-13 [Reference/Military] UID:39087 Activity:low |
8/10 "A 7-day waiting period for a gun? That's stupid! No one can
stay mad that long."
http://csua.org/u/d06
Emo Philips performing in SF Thursday through Saturday
\_ Think about this next time there is a riot.
\_ Should have bought a gun way before a riot breaks out. I'm
serious. Otherwise, it's like trying to fix a barn after....
What's more annoying to me is the fact that even if I own a
gun (or many guns), it still takes 7 days (or 30 days for
handguns) to get another one.
\_ you both officially have no sense of humor. Good job.
\_ "I dream of a world in which I can buy alcohol, tobacco,
and firearms at the same drive-in window, and use them
all before I get home from work." - Dogbert
\_ "I dream in a world where the government tells me what
I can and cannot do to myself." Oh wait.. it's reality |
| 2005/8/3-4 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38969 Activity:nil |
8/3 "Brig. Gen. Carter Ham ... acknowledged that U.S. and multinational
forces have faced a number of direct attacks from rebels. The reason,
he said, is that U.S. and multinational forces have swarmed the
western Iraq area, limiting rebels from fleeing towns and perhaps
causing more direct confrontations. When asked whether U.S. forces
have been able to diminish rebels from inside Iraq or Syria from
operating, Ham said, 'Absolutely not.' Marines acknowledge many more
troops would be needed to have a permanent presence in every guerrilla
enclave along the river, stretching for hundreds of miles to the
Syrian border. But Ham said today he was uncertain whether the spate
\_ Probably these horrible "flush-less" urinals they've been
putting in highway rest stops over here--they have a valve
at the bottom which drains the things when they fill past
a certain degree, and don't let any smell out of the pipe.
Needless to say, the bits you pee on above the pipe also
smell. A lot. -John
of deaths would lead to more troops being deployed in the area.
... Army Gen. George W. Casey, America's top commander in Iraq, set
November as a goal for U.S. troops to wrest away control of Iraq's
western borders." |
| 2005/7/29 [Reference/Military, Reference/History/WW2] UID:38876 Activity:low |
7/28 John, this is for you... on the reference of ww2
"Nippon's true aim in the prosecution of the Greater East
Asia War is the maintenance of self-existence and self-defense
for the Empire and the emancipation of the peoples in Greater
East Asia from the yoke of the United States and Britain.
This sacred war aim is recognized by all human beings on
earth. There is a world of difference between our war aim
and that of the United States and Britain.
\_ Yeah, and it was war necessity to kill and rape 300k civilians in
the city of Nanjing in order to achieve this.
\_ Sometimes you must choke a dog in order to give it medicine. |
| 2005/7/18-19 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38694 Activity:nil |
7/18 http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm Good stuff on that website. -- ilyas \_ Hmm, that's an interesting site. I'll have to read it through when I have more time. Thanks for posting it, ilya. -mice |
| 2005/7/15-18 [Reference/Military, Reference/Religion] UID:38634 Activity:nil |
7/15 Okay, this is old, but good:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/dawkins.html
Dawkins on suicide bombers.
\_ This article contains religion-bashing. Where o where are the
flames?
\_ Note the date on the article.
\_ gee, such dry wit: "How about using humans as on-board guidance
systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as
pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon
brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior."
\_ Good essay. -- ilyas |
| 2005/7/12-13 [Consumer/Camera, Reference/Military, Computer/Theory] UID:38548 Activity:nil |
7/11 Just wanted to thank the person who posted about the PBS special
Guns, Germs and Steel. Tonight's eps. (the 1st?) was pretty good.
I'm not sure I completely agree w/ the premise that geography
dictated "success", but I'm pretty sure I can go along w/ the
fact that it predisposed certain people to create civilization
and culture.
\_ I can't believe I missed this book when I came out in
1999. I'm going to have to get it from the library after
finals. BTW, he seems to have written another book last
year called Collapse. Have you read that one?
\_ I forgot to watch. The newest hardback edition of the book
out now has a new chapter on the author's theory of the
origin of the Japanese language and people. - danh
\_ I can't believe I missed this book when I came out in
1999. I'm going to have to get it from the library after
finals. BTW, he seems to have written another book last
year called Collapse. Have you read that one?
\_ I read the stuff at http://pbs.com, which seemed to contain the entire
show content, and you can read it all in 5 minutes or whatever.
I guess seeing the landscapes and people on camera would be fun.
Oh well.
\_ I watched it in HD and it looked great.
\_ http://www.pbs.org not http://pbs.com. |
| 2005/6/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:38349 Activity:moderate |
6/29 Bush criticism deleted. It's unlikely you'll convince Bush supporters
and anti-war people in any direction any how.
\_ Not true. You can't convince Bush supporter to go for peace in the
face of threats, but I'm pretty sure a pacifists will be pissing in
the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at him.
the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at
him.
\_ If you don't support Bush, you're a hippie weirdo peacenik
raghead-loving vegan nutjob, whose only good trait is a
reasonable command of the English language. -John
\_ GWB may not have the the powerful command of the English
language, but he sure has the most powerful military
command in the world.
\_ I was indirectly referring to the hope that pp is a
poor troll attempt, because if he/she/it isn't, a
swift and merciless beating is in order. -John
\_ A bona fide redneck would not have misused the
phrase "pissing in the wind".
\_ Not true. Bush's support falls every month. |
| 2005/6/21-22 [Reference/Military] UID:38222 Activity:low |
6/21 Draft these people http://tinyurl.com/b3bpe \_ HAH AH A this is HILARIOUS thanks for the joke (fyi it's about Confederates fighting Star Trek guys) \_ Highly amusing, thank you. Check the date on it as well. |
| 2005/6/17 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38179 Activity:high 63%like:38170 |
6/17 [Hey, I was challenged to read this. I did and here are my comments.
Please don't delete it for at least a day or so.]
I've read the Lancet study (Oct 2004) and it does seem to have some
problems. In particular:
- the "100,000 dead" number comes from a 95% conficence interval
spanning 8,000 to 194,000. Pretty big range there.
- "Interviewers were initially reluctant to ask to see death
certificates because this might have implied they did not believe the
respondents, perhaps triggering violence. Thus, a compromise was
reached for which interviewers would attempt to confirm at least two
deaths per cluster."
- "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded.
Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely
for respondents to fabricate deaths.
"It is possible that deaths were not reported, because families might
wish to conceal the death or because neonatal deaths might go without
mention."
- "When violent deaths were attributed to a faction in the conflict or
to criminal forces, no further investigation into the death was made
to respect the privacy of the family and for the safety of the
interviewers.
- "Of these, two were attributed to anti-coalition forces, two were of
unknown origin, seven were criminal murders, and one was from the
previous regime during the invasion."
This suggests that violent crime was mixed in with war-related deaths.
- The slate article (http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887 that criticizes
the study points right to the biggest problem: the cluster
reassignments:
"During September, 2004, many roads were not under the control of the
Government of Iraq or coalition forces. Local police checkpoints
were perceived by team members as target identification screens for
rebel groups. To lessen risks to investigators, we sought to minimise
travel distances and the number of Governorates to visit, while still
sampling from all regions of the country. We did this by clumping
pairs of Governorates."
So their random sample is reduced dramatically.
Like all statistial analyses, the results can be hugely varied
depending on methodology. I see the Lancet study as seriously flawed
and the claim of 100,000 extra dead invalid. See the slate article
for a link to the .pdf of the study and read it yourself. -emarkp
\- for a long comment like this, why dont you put a link to
~ping/lancet.blurb. people can put short followups here.
I've read the Lancet study (Oct 2004) and it does seem to have some
problems. In particular:
\- Why dont you move long comments like to an external file?
- the "100,000 dead" number comes from a 95% conficence interval
spanning 8,000 to 194,000. Pretty big range there.
- "Interviewers were initially reluctant to ask to see death
certificates because this might have implied they did not believe the
respondents, perhaps triggering violence. Thus, a compromise was
reached for which interviewers would attempt to confirm at least two
deaths per cluster."
- "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded.
Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely
for respondents to fabricate deaths.
"It is possible that deaths were not reported, because families might
wish to conceal the death or because neonatal deaths might go without
mention."
- "When violent deaths were attributed to a faction in the conflict or
to criminal forces, no further investigation into the death was made
to respect the privacy of the family and for the safety of the
interviewers.
- "Of these, two were attributed to anti-coalition forces, two were of
unknown origin, seven were criminal murders, and one was from the
previous regime during the invasion."
This suggests that violent crime was mixed in with war-related deaths.
- The slate article (http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887 that criticizes
the study points right to the biggest problem: the cluster
reassignments:
"During September, 2004, many roads were not under the control of the
Government of Iraq or coalition forces. Local police checkpoints
were perceived by team members as target identification screens for
rebel groups. To lessen risks to investigators, we sought to minimise
travel distances and the number of Governorates to visit, while still
sampling from all regions of the country. We did this by clumping
pairs of Governorates."
So their random sample is reduced dramatically.
Like all statistial analyses, the results can be hugely varied
depending on methodology. I see the Lancet study as seriously flawed
and the claim of 100,000 extra dead invalid. See the slate article
for a link to the .pdf of the study and read it yourself. -emarkp
\_ emarkp, i think you need to be a little less verbose.
\_ So does the Lancet when they're making up numbers. etc. -emarkp
\_ the death amount is 40k to 150k at a 85% confidence interval
and 60k to 120k at a 75% confidence interval. The report did
not claim that all ~100k were killed by American action, on the
contrary, many were known to have died due to the unstable
security situation. If the study is so flawed, why doesn't anyone
else do one to debunk it. We know the Pentagon has its own
numbers, why don't they release them?
\_ I think these numbers: http://www.iraqbodycount.net
are more reliable. -emarkp
\_"Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths - which
can only be a sample of true deaths unless one assumes that
every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that
many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by
the media. That is the sad nature of war." -FAQ from that
site. So they are a very reliable count of what they are
counting, which is known to be an underestimate of the
total number of people killed.
\_ Unless deaths are over reported. -emarkp |
| 2005/6/16-18 [Reference/Military] UID:38155 Activity:nil |
6/16 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8155830 The Army misses the recruitment target, lowers its target in May, and still misses it. One of the solutions is to retain GIs it usually kicks out, including the guys "on weight control, school no-shows, drug users, etc." Here is a proposal for you PRESIDENT BUSH. Why don't you stage another terrorist attack on our soil to get us all hyped up for the war? \_ Yeah, 9/11 was staged. And Danny Lewin, ex-Sayaret Matkal, didn't really die. I hope California gets returned Mexico so you dumbasses can see what you really missing when you don't understand the concepts of honor and duty. \_ OP never said 9/11 was staged. And, really, is lying a nation into war honorable? \_ OP please explain which prior terrorist attack on our soil was staged? \_ Your reading comprehension is poor. We've been attacked before. To say "stage another attack" does not require that one was staged before. \_ I wonder if the number of homos being kicked out has dropped as in previous wars? \_ Here is a proposal to you, poster. Why don't you grow up? |
| 2005/5/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:37768 Activity:kinda low |
5/19 Why do we send US Marines to Afghanistan which is a landlocked country?
\_ Why do we park in a DRIVEway and drive on a PARKway?
\_ Why do we call goods on ships "cargo", and goods on cars
"shipment"?
\_ why we invade another country when we don't have Department of
"Offence?"
\_ I mean land relates to Army while water relates to Marines.
\_ Because you have no idea what the Marines do or are capable of.
\_ I guess I don't. So why is that military branch called "Marines"
instead of something like "Army-Lite" or "Agile Land Force".
\_ I'm going to make shit up here and say that the US Marines
probably derive their original name from the british
Royal Marines, the royal marine's first name was
"Maritime Regiment Of Foot". - danh
\_ Maybe, but the reality is that the Marines are part
of the Navy trained in amphibious assault. They
often get non-Naval assignments because they are
well-trained and mobile infantry. The SEALS get
called to do extra (non-naval) stuff, too.
\_ already discussed last year:
http://csua.com/?entry=34877
\_ Right, because once it's in the archives there'll NEVER be
anything new to add. Nope nope nope, nossir!
\_ The first things I do is search the MOTD! If the nitwit
was going to search MOTD archives then we may as well
have searched Google and spared everyone the trouble.
\_ "It is only by studying our past that we can understand
ourselves."
\_ Thanks! |
| 2005/5/11-12 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:37621 Activity:nil |
5/11 About the 15-mile-radius restricted air space in DC. How fast can
planes fly in low atmosphere? If it's around 300mph, it'd only take
three minutes to reach the center. How is that enough time to scramble
a fighter jet from ground to reach the plane and then try to
communicate to the offending pilot, before deciding to shoot it down?
\_ Wait for a redacted pdf outlining the military's plans, and then
copy all of the text into a plain text file. The answers will be
there. --eriikred
\_ SAM
\_ Oooo scary, Single Asian Man
\_ when it gets to the SAM stage, the only choice is to shoot down
or not, and when a plans is shot down, the wreckage has to land
*somewhere*.
\_ It's better if the poor tourists gets the falling debris
than plane crashing into something important.
\_ yes, like our beloved George Bush.
\_ believe me, they'll have jets ready by the time someone actually
breaches the 15 mile circle.
\_ Why would you want to fly into their airspace when you can easily
do a Lee Boyd Malvo? |
| 2005/5/6-8 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:37558 Activity:low |
5/6 Does any part of a hollow point bullet liquify during its flight?
\_ No.
\_ so how does it end up looking like this?
http://www.landro.no/images/Ref_nr64.jpg
I just got this off of images.google, and there are lots like it.
That sure looks to me like it's melted. Are you saying the
solid just deforms in flight?
\_ Lead is very, very soft. The reason for using a hollow
point bullet is because it expands when it hits flesh, making
a much larger wound cavity than the initial caliber of the
bullet.
\_ it didnt' take that shape in flight, but rather upon impact. |
| 2005/4/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:37192 Activity:moderate |
4/14 So the media have all but ignored the Minuteman Project. There are
claims now that the Mexican Army are escorting mexicans to other
parts of the border to cross, but there's pretty much zero coverage of
this. Why isn't this being investigated?
\_ Almost as importantly is the lack of coverage that these
illegals costs in range bombing time.
\_ It's 24 miles worth of border and they have caught about 200
people so far. Of course the Border Patrol is pissed off because
the Minutemen, the activists watching the Minutemen, and the
reporters following everyone are setting off alarms and messing
with their own tracking. The Minutemen succeeded the first day
when they got their 15 minutes of free press.
\_ You obviously don't understand the project. The number of
illegals crossing the border in that section has dropped
dramatically. That's a success.
\_ Errr...You aren't really *that* dumb are you? Umm...maybe
you are...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_line
\_ Because it doesn't extrapolate out nicely. 500 volunteers
over 24 miles compared to paying X professionals over the
1950-odd mile Mexican border? Toss in Canada and you've
got a bit of a budget problem. |
| 2005/3/24 [Reference/Military, Politics] UID:36855 Activity:low |
3/24 Before that day, [10th-grader shot in the hip Cody] Thunder said he
had talked to Weise several times, even attempting to befriend him.
"He seemed like a loner, and I just felt like it would be good to go
talk to him ... [but Weise] talked about nothing but guns and shooting
people," ... the attempt to reach out didn't result in friendship.
Weise covered his notebook with military insignia and would change his
hair, once shaping it into a style "like devil horns or something, "
... "I never thought he would come up and try to shoot up the school.
... He looked right at me ... I thought he was messing around. I
thought it was a paint gun or something."
\_ I heard the statements. The shooter was trying to be evil. He
found power in acting out his "evil" with the psuedo-goth getup
and in his statements. It might have started out as an act, but
eventually led to tragedy. I've wondered why the politicians
haven't jumped on this given the newfound "Culture of Life" unless
it has something with the shooter and most of the victims being poor
and Native Americans. |
| 2005/3/23-24 [Reference/Military] UID:36832 Activity:moderate |
3/23 "I've challenged our human resource people to get as innovative as
they can. ... " One of those is designed to persuade more parents to
steer their children to the Army. "We're going to appeal to
patriotism," [Secretary of the Army Francis J. Harvey] said.
\_ What is wrong w/ wanting people to serve in the armed
forces?
\_ Nothing is wrong with wanting people to serve in the armed
forces. Nonetheless, the decision to serve must remain a
choice that is not subject to undue duress applied by third
parties. Thus, it gives me pause to see efforts designed to
encourage *parents* to push their children toward the military.
-dans (!OP)
\_ When I asked about (college) ROTC before graduating HS, I
got an unsolicited note in the mail from a marines recruiter
saying something like "Dear Mr. & Mrs. Salomon (not my mom's
last name, and she is/was single) I am visiting you on xyz
date to discuss your son's joining hte Marine Corps." -John
date to discuss your son's joining the Marine Corps." -John |
| 2005/3/22-24 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36818 Activity:low |
3/22 "We've found Jewish Nazis, gay Nazis, blacks who wanted to be white
supremacists. The reason it isn't so unusual -- these are powerless
people to whom images of powerful people are appealing."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/22/school.shooting
\_ The boy killed his 60 year old grandpa and his **30** year old gf.
\_ Native Americans have big equipment.
\_ Wears bullet proof vest during the killing spree before shooting
himself to death. I mean, what's the point of wearing bullet proof
vest?
\_ Presumably to increase the odds that all but one bullet gets
used on victims.
\_ you know, we spend billions on the Iraq war to protect ourselves
from terrorists, yet our own people terrorize ourselves. 86
billion dollars spent on war is a lot of money that could have
been spent on civic and social programs that might have prevented
this tragedy. FUCK YOU GEORGE BUSH AND BUSH SUPPORTERS. I hope
you guys go to hell and experience eternal sodomization by satan
\_ Yeah, and had we spent that money on places like Afghanistan
Syria and Iraq BEFORE 9/11 we could've prevented around 3000
deaths. C'mon, people, are you forgetting the people who lost
their lives because of terrorism?
\_ uh, yeah williamc, war in Iraq and Homeland Security
have made US much safer than before, I can just feel it
\_ To Canada with you!
\_ To Iraq with you, and you fight with the Army you
have, not with the Army you want!
\_ But...what if they like it?
\_ From http://www.nazi.org/nazi/national_socialism/judaism
"thus we are supporters of the Zionist state, Israel, insofar as it
confines its influence to its own activities." |
| 2005/3/18-19 [Reference/Military] UID:36746 Activity:low |
3/15 Yahoo News: http://tinyurl.com/6kpv9 More gun control = increase in cross bow sales \_ and 10% drop in murder rates \_ Well, it IS a bit harder than handguns to aim and reload. |
| 2005/3/15-16 [Consumer/PDA, Reference/Military] UID:36701 Activity:moderate |
3/15 Anyone know what the big plot is next week for 24? who's the army
dude?
\_ I can't believe I actually watch this horrible show, but...
I don't think he's an army dude. He's a terrorist who's going
to disguise himself as an airforce pilot and they're going to
rub out/kidnap an actual airforce pilot and take the real pilot's
place. My guess is that this pilot is supposed to be the pilot for
Air Force One who's going to relieve the current pilot of AF1.
All of the plots are related. Plot to kidnap senator was so they
could insert the trojan to enable the override. Using the override
to cause nuclear meltdown was to keep AF1 in the air so that they
can eventually do the pilot switcheroo.
\_ How is it horrible?
\_ every female character is either a total bee-yotch or a
pathetic weakling for starters
\_ I think you should watch Alias instead. ;)
\_ I think you should watch Desperate Housewives.
\_ I'm watching Quantum Leap!
\_ Who knows? Who cares? Just wait a week instead of spoiling it.
\_ I can't, I can't!!!!
\_ All you need to know to appreciate 24, which is horrible but
amusiing nonetheless, is this: Kiefer Sutherland does something
crazy each episode, and usually crazier than last season/week.
-dans |
| 2005/3/4-5 [Reference/Military] UID:36519 Activity:kinda low |
3/3 Proof that ilyas has a sense of humor (or humour as he put it):
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~ilyas/humour/swift_sword_of_death
\_ The sword cost is inaccurate. There is also the wage to the
sword wielder to consider. And I doubt one swordsman would
be adequate.
\_ not to mention the mess cleanup afterward.
\_ Just get a bunch of sausage makers and sell the removal and
cleanup right to the highest bidder. The money from the
sausage makers should cover whatever cost you might incur.
\_ I prefer the Springer show thing he's got there, though it's a
bit dated. The Dworkin stuff is so very 1993. My spouse is just
about the only self-proclaimed feminist who hasn't moved on yet.
\_ The entry about dictators is also incorrect; Repubs enjoy moving
their former allies just as much as Dems do.
\_ replies above prove that pps take everything too
seriously and have no sense of humour. Jesus Christ lighten up!
\_ Dude, we're cs geeks; we'll argue semantics and degrees of
precision all damn night without any real purpose or goal.
It's got very little to do with taking things seriously.
So, seriously, lighten up!
\_ how dare you instruct our benevolent martyr to lighten up!
he died on the cross at the hands of man for YOUR SINS! |
| 2005/2/9 [Reference/Military] UID:36121 Activity:nil |
2/9 Stop the suicides! Close the Golden Gate Bridge!
http://www.saf.org/viewpr.asp?id=139 |
| 2005/2/8-9 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36106 Activity:kinda low |
2/8 Is there any conspiracy theory which is most likely true?
\_ There really was a conspiracy to hide information about UFO's from
the public. The nonexistence of aliens did not stop the mindless
wheels of government.
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/97unclass/ufo.html
\_ um yes, gov't consipiracy to cover up UFOs are true.
\_ What do you mean? They're all true!
\_ The Warren Commission report on the JFK assassination was almost
certainly a coverup. I personally think they were covering up the
fact that they really had no idea what happened, not that nutjob
theory of your choice did it, but who really knows? |
| 2005/2/5 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Reference/Military] UID:36069 Activity:kinda low |
2/4 Gays w/ Guns in SF:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/02/03/BAGMTB4NTL1.DTL
\_ 'Edward, a self-described "libertarian, anarchist, socialist" with
a "small arsenal" of guns at home, didn't want to give his last
name.' Uh... libertarian, anarchist sure... then add socialist?
How does that work?
\_ Wow, sounds like most of our motd posters! |
| 2005/1/31 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35992 Activity:very high |
1/31 Can anyone recommend a good book on the Vietnam war? I'm realizing
I don't actually know much about it.
\_ "On Strategy", by Harry G. Summers Jr. for a purely military
analysis of why we "lost". -John
\_ "In Retrospect : The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam"
by the architect of it all, former Ford exec, Cal grad,w/zero combat
exp. , and so-called "Whiz Kid" Robert Strange (REAL MN)McNamara
\_ <deleted> - chicom troll pretender
\_ deleted by real chicom troll
\_ WTF? -the REAL chicom troll
\_ Will the real chicom troll please stand up....
\_ You are ALL lying! -ilyas
\_ [ sign my name for me at your peril, bitch. -- ilyas ]
\_ Or what? You're going to nuke the motd....*again*?
\_ Well I can learn John's baseball bat method, if
you prefer. -- ilyas
\_ Smith and Wesson beats baseball bat more often
than not.
\_ I have a 1945 issue Remington-Rand M1911
too. -John
\_ Yeah, and I've got a baseball bat also.
So what?
\_ 1942 issue Remington-Rand M1911 beats
baseball bat more often than not.
\_ No, goddamnit, no! No recursion
is allowed! Eat my exit-condition,
beyotch!
\_ I d never buy Smith and Wesson, those
wusses bowed down to the anti-gun lobby
pressure.
P.S. My fans are starting to scare me.
-- ilyas
\_ Uhm, I don't think Smith and Wesson
makes baseball bats, so that might be
moot.
\_ Speaking of baseball bats and BULLDOZERS,
is browning any good when it comes to
pistols? Hipower?
\_ Don't make my hero bust out with the
BULLDOZER!!! Yeah, that's right. You're
all quiet now. -- ilyas #1 fan
\_ RPG beats BULLDOZER!!! more often than
not.
\_ Assault rifle beats RPG.
http://www.christophor.com/vids/iraqi.mpeg
\_ OMGLOL
\_ Simple, the US got more than what it bargained for. Got
its ass kicked by the PRC army in Vietnam. Nixon had to
\_ PRC army in Vietnam? -John
\_ Yes, one of my uncle actually fought in Vietnam.
It wasn't like the Korean war where the PRC dumped
millions of soldiers in it, but it's also more than
just weapon supplies. -someone from mainland
\_ are you sure your uncle wasn't fighting in
the sino-vietnamese war which happened after
the americans got kicked out of vietnam?
\_ Oh, come on. Read a fucking history book.
Yes, there were PRC soldiers fighting
Americans in Vietnam.
\_ Maybe a couple, but considering that the PRVN
was primarily Soviet-aligned, and the USSR and
ChiComs weren't getting along to well (not to
mention long-festering border incidents which
ended up as a full-on war in the late 1970s)
the whole thing about "PRC KICK YANKEE GI OUT
VIETNAM!" is pretty silly, especially given
that the US didn't lose a single decently
sized conventional engagement. -John
abandon Taiwan and go to China to establish diplomatic
relationship with the PRC precisely because of the
Vietnam War, because they come to realize during later
stages of the war that one of their main base has been
completely surrounded by the PRC army, despite their day
and night of non stop bombing in the surrounding area
(which you can find references to in the history channel
but they stop short of telling you what happens
afterwards), they've come to realize they cannot prevent
the inevitable and will be overrun. The loss of life
will be unacceptable to the US public. So Nixon sends
you know who secretly to the PRC to negotiate. In the
end the PRC withdraw its forces and the US pulled out,
leaving everything behind including their beloved K9
dogs. To those who think the US pulled out because of
public pressure, its all bullshit, but surely sounds
better than telling the public, look, if we sacrifice
Taiwan, we will have XXX less body bags to bring home.
\_ Your history is hilarious. You should write a book. -John
\_ you got your history all backwards and confused.
we chicom didn't fight in vietnam. if we did, you
wouldn't have lasted that long. it's only our little
sister the vietcong fighting there. stop imagining
things. - real chicom troll
\_ e.g. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/vietnam.htm
In short: both trollers and John are wrong. China did
send a sizable number of soldiers (>~ one army division)
and though it wasn't convered extensively by the media, it
was never even a secret. It didn't kicked US ass nor was
it ever intended to. It's role is somewhat similar to US'
role in SK today: to convincine US not to attack with
ground force as it did in Korea. Also worth noting: US
built SV into the world's 4th largest AF and army, and 5th
largest navy. It is rather moot to say you never lost a
single conventional engagement. That Austrian dude had the
world finest killing machines and still lost in the end.
\_ Thank you, good reading.
\_ Watch "Fog of War" on DVD. It's a very interesting one-on-one
interview with the guy who was SecDef at the time.
\- you might want to specify what you are looking for ... there
are books by military people, journalists, photographers,
political scientists/historians, intelligence people, and
famous fictional works like The Ugly American or The Quiet
American. --psb
\_ Is _The Quiet American_ as good as _The Ugly American_ ?
\_ The book is nice, the movie's pretty but sort of
Graham Green Lite.
\_ We Were Soldiers Once...And Young |
| 2005/1/20 [Reference/Military] UID:35816 Activity:high |
1/20 So it turns out Michael Moore doesn't want you to have a gun, but his
bodyguard can have one. And it doesn't even have to be licensed.
http://csua.org/u/as0
\_ Who said he doesn't want you to have a gun? You're a fucking idiot.
\_ Hahahaha, are you watching the same documentaries with your
eyes open? Did you see Bowling for Columbine? Did you see the
part where he got K-Mart to stop selling bullets? What kind of
chimpee are you? Next time, actually WATCH the documentary
and keep your eyes OPEN and use that stuff between your eyes
to RECORD in your MEMORY on what happened. I don't know what
other type of action would qualify you more to be a pro-gun
regulation person. Also, it's somewhat ironic that he's afraid
now and requires a bodygaurd when the whole message behind
now and requires a bodyguard when the whole message behind
Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 was that fearmongering was
generated by the Repubs and WASP America. The mere fact that
he has a bodyguard pretty much undermines his message.
\_ Dude, did we watch the same documentary? He's not anti-gun,
he's anti-gun lobby and anti-gun-stupidity. It's not a binary
world out there.
\_ Dude, talk about splitting hairs. That's like saying "
well, I'm not anti-gay, I just don't support gay marriage."
Dude, you're ANTI-GAY. So he's ANTI-GUN. Okay?
Okay. (Who the hell are these fucking morons who post
on the motd anyway?)
\_ I am not anti-gay but I don't support gay marriage.
(I support government recognized unions between
arbitrary sets of people, for bureaucratic purposes,
and private religious institutions of marriage between
whoever -- as long as you can find a priest to marry you).
I do not support gay marriage under the current use of
the term marriage in our society.
... Having said that. Does anyone here actually believe
Moore believes in the interpretation of the 2nd amend.
which states private citizens can own guns? If so,
can I get a quote of his to this effect, rather than
idle speculation, or post hoc reasoning to justify
the fact that he has an armed bodyguard? -- ilyas
\_ I think not, but I'm pretty sure you couldn't find
one where he explicitly advocates banning guns
either. I think the reason that Bowling for
Columbine was an interesting movie, while F911
was total horseshit was that it asked more questions
than it answered. Ignoring the bloviating dickhead
above, Bowling for Columbine never really advocated
any particular position on gun control. In fact
his whole point in talking about canada in the movie
was that they all have guns, but have a lot less
gun violence, in contradiction to the guns=violence
theory.
\_ I don't know, I think he asked fairly leading
questions (why not do things the Gandhi way?).
Of course, he may just have been trolling...
in which case he was using rhetoric (in the
dirty word sense found in Plato). -- ilyas
\_ I think "trolling" is actually a perfect
description of what Micheal Moore does, and
I think creative trolling really works in
certain circumstances. This whole thread
is the response to a troll. In F911 he
crossed the line from troll to one of those
long, disconnected rants that get moved
to /csua/tmp/looneytoon or whatever.
\_ Your position is pretty dumb. There's these thingies
called 'rights' which are granted by this other thingy
called 'The Bill of Rights'. It is possible to dislike
one person or group's implementation of those rights, or
the nature of a group's constituency while still fully
believing in the rights granted. This isn't splitting
hairs, it's one of the benefits of education (well,
theoretically anyhow) -- it's called 'critical thinking'
\_ So if you don't believe that everyone has the right to
carry M16s in public, you are "anti-gun"? I thought
Mr. Moore was a big-time gun rights supporter!
\_ "Mr. Moore"?
\_ "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than
to speak and remove all doubt." -Abe Lincoln
\_ Let's see: I don't like you, so I must be a
misanthropist.
\_ He got K-Mart to stop selling bullets? Then he's just anti-
bullet, not anti-gun! :-)
\_ After all the death threat's against him posted to Free Republic,
he needs an armed bodyguard.
\_ That's what the police are for.
\_ All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
\_ add Feinstein, Boxer and Schumer...
\_ And State Senate Pro Tempore Don Peralta. They all have
\_ Perata
personal concealed carry licenses but don't you to have it.
\_ Dude, RTFA: Moore has nothing to do with this nut having or not
having a gun. The guy's a contract bodyguard, not part of Moore's
retinue. "Burk has been assigned to protect Moore at times in the
past, but is not his personal bodyguard, Gavin de Becker [Burk's
boss] said." Nice troll, though, lots of cookies. |
| 2004/12/17-19 [Reference/Military] UID:35347 Activity:low 71%like:35344 |
12/17 Does Jen on The Apprentice have maple booms? I can't find any pics of
her below the neck.
\_ yes, they talked about her using her guns to her advantage.
\_ What guns?
\- The Guns of August
\_ maple?
\_ It's an edit. It probably read 'ample boobs' or something before
some twit edited it.
\_ ha. thanks. -pp |
| 2004/12/17 [Reference/Military] UID:35338 Activity:nil |
12/17 The army is spending $4B to armor 38000 vehicles. That's $105k per
vehicle. Why on earth does it cost so much? They're not armoring it
as tough as a tank.
\_ Buy armor at rush-production prices, airlift if halfway around the
world, and pay pork-barrel contractors too much money to install it. |
| 2004/12/14 [Reference/Military] UID:35281 Activity:very high |
12/13 Can you still get MP-40/44s? Or are they expensive antiques now?
\_ Yes to both. http://tinyurl.com/5qaf6 . A friend of mine is
into collecting machine guns--I can ask him if you want. You
may have just the teensiest of issues with shipping, though. Also
check http://www.machinegun.com -- they have some in the classified
section from time to time. The one MP40 I found is $15k. -John
\_ Whoa. You can buy 10 M16s or 15 AK47s with that. Why would you
want an old outdated gun that doesn't even shoot as well?
\_ You are clearly trolling, but in fact old WWII german guns
are very good. The AK47 (and similar designs like the Galil)
are basically copies of the Stwg44 that fell into russian
hands at the end of the war. Many good modern bolt actions are
based on the mauser action found in the kar98k. Finally,
the belt fed machine gun the germans used (the one responsible
for about 90% of german-inflicted casualties) was basically
copied by NATO countries. Did you know that gun uses sand
as lubricant? Don't dis german guns. -- ilyas
\_ Second that. Them guys knew what they were doing.
\_ He's been playing call of duty too much. he wants to hold
the gun in his hands and feel like those old soldiers of
the Wehrmacht. Get a Luger to go with it and go on a rampage
at his local Safeway.
\_ All because of republican fuckheads in congress
refuse to ban assault weapon. Yeah sure, the
average John Doe needs a machine gun to protect
themselves. You know what, I think I need a
nuclear bomb to protect myself too. You want to
mess with me, we die together. I absolutely
positively must need that. Just think about all
the profits this could bring, building all these
portable nuclear weapons, lots of money for
republican fuckheads who have vested interest in
those companies. They'll have you believe even a
teenager needs a M16. Dickwads.
\_ I was watching some TV show and it says the
original constitution gives people right to
form armed militia. Does this still apply? Can
you actually form an armed militia without
being nuked by the government? I don't think
so, so why do we still allow weapons on the
streets? It's like the default fall through for
case statement in C, it's causing more trouble
than its worth. But who gives a fuck if you get
killed by a drive by shooting, I feel safe in
my rich neighborhood.
\_ You guys keep masturbating each other. -- ilyas
\_ Are you jealous that no one is masturbating you?
\_ "Yes, I am gonna marry a carrot." -- ilyas
\_ Aaron? Is that you man? |
| 2004/12/12-13 [Reference/Military] UID:35254 Activity:low |
12/12 I've been playing Call of Duty and I could pick up limited
number of weapons. What is better, MP-40 or MP-44? I noticed
that MP-40s have faster rate and are quiter while MP-44s
are slower and have fewer rounds. Also, what about the Russian
guns (with 76 bullets) that shoot really fast? Which weapons
are the best to use?
\_ MP40 has crap range. Use a carbine if you can. There are
writeups on MoH/CoD weapons comparing them. -John
writeups on MoH/CoD weapons comparing them. You would
probably also really enjoy Pacific Assault. -John
\_ Shop and compare at http://GameFAQs.com's CoD Weapons Guide:
http://csua.org/u/aar |
| 2004/12/7-8 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35206 Activity:high |
12/7 Whatever happened to all the artists that are suppose to sing anti-war
songs like the 70s?
\_ Anti war songs question Our President's authority, and who would
want to do that?
\_ Last March, Joan Baez played at the march in the city. We have a
generation gap where music has fallen to something you listen to
in the background. If you troll for non-marketplace music, you
will find PLENTY of anti-war songs.
\_ Wait till we have been fighting in Iraq for five years. They
are coming.
\_ http://www.lacarte.org/songs/anti-war/updates.html#summary
\_ Eminem's Mosh
\_ http://protest-records.com/mp3
\_ http://www.countryjoe.com/warsongs.htm |
| 2004/12/4 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35172 Activity:nil |
12/4 The War Effort, a new kind of comedy about a new kind of war:
http://www.campchaos.com/thewareffort
\_ Say, Hank. You got any more pudding? |
| 2004/12/1 [Reference/Military] UID:35148 Activity:very high |
12/1 Yay! http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,65885,00.html As early as March or April, 18 units of the Talon -- a model armed with automatic weapons -- are scheduled to report for duty in Iraq. ... Four cameras and a pair of night-vision binoculars allow the robot to operate at all times of the day. It has a range of about a half-mile in urban areas, more in the open desert. And with the ability to carry four 66-mm rockets or six 40-mm grenades, as well as an M240 or M249 machine gun, the robots can take on additional duties fast, said http://GlobalSecurity.org director John Pike. \_ The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots. Thank you. \_ it has begun. The robots are going to take over the world. \_ Don't be silly. The dolphins will do that first. \_ Dolphins have been secretly stealing our H07 CH1X in beach waters with their long hard beaks. \_ ob: I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords. \_ future wars will be robot vs. robot. Smart bullets will try to reduce collateral damage. Smart gun systems will try to reduce collateral damage. Hackers will be the warriors of the future. Video Games are a conspiracy to create the new breed of warriors. The internet will be used to help fight wars. \_ The Internet was *DESIGNED* to help fight wars \_ No silly, Al Gore invented it to start the dot-com economy. \_ eat shit \_ Sorry, I don't live in the dorms anymore. \_ OOOOHHHHH AAAAUHHHHhhhhhhhhhh...*geek splooge* \_ Monkey hate robot |
| 2004/11/23 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:35047 Activity:insanely high |
11/23 Ok, right-wingers. Vang claims he was shot at first, and returned
fire as if his life were in danger. Given the repeated statements
of how eager you are to take the law into your own hands, how is
Vang's reaction any different than what you would have done?
\_ he is justified if true, he also assumed they had more
than one gun if they are hunters
\_ Actually in order to claim self-defense, he needs
to meet several requirements:
1. Did he create the situation?
2. Did he have an honest and actual belief that
there was a danger to his life?
3. Was his belief reasonable? [This test is tougher
than it looks]
4. Was the threat imminent?
5. Was his response appropriate?
If any of these questions are answered in the negative
then he doesn't get self defense. He may get imperfect
self defense, if he didn't create the situation, had
and honest and actual belief, but his belief was not
reasonable.
\_ Everyone agrees it is unreasonable and not totally
self-defense, but many people secretly wish they could
do what he did.
\_ And for that we have federal pound-me-in-the-ass
penitentiary.
\_ Quoth investigator report (via Reuters): "He fired back, hitting
the man who shot at him and then pursued the others, shooting them
and another couple who showed up later riding an all-terrain
vehicle..." It seems that whether or not the hunters fired the
first shot, Vang's claim to self-defense ended at some point
through the killings.
\_ Yeah, you think the rest of them wouldn't have "defended"
their dead friend if Vang just walked off?
\_ "...and then pursued the others, shooting them..."
\_ Let's try this again. A group of thugs shoots at you.
You decide to return fire and kill the one that shot
at you. What makes you think the others would not have
continued shooting at you?
\_ Uhh.. they were running away?
\_ Uhh.. they weren't all armed?
\_ Yes. The rest were hunting with their fists.
\_ Why don't you read the article?
\_ What article? Do I need to go to The Free
Republic and track it down?
\_ I'm just suggesting that maybe you should
read some articles about the subject we're
discussing, rather than just shooting your
mouth off.
\_ "shooting" my mouth off, eh? You are
a funny guy.
\_ Wow. According to the sheriff's report, there
was only one firearm amongst those that were shot.
Those lying sheriff bastards! Obviously it was
all a conspiracy! Well, that or you're a
blithering idiot.
\_ By the time the sheriff got there, the other
hunters had hidden the rest of their guns,
some of which might not have been legal to
own. It would make for a nicer story too,
if that damn gook shot and killed a bunch
of unarmed white christian males.
\_ The sheriff in a white southern county
is just going to lie to cover up for
high school drinking buddies. Especially
over some dink.
\_ I think my theory about you being a
blithering idiot is far more likely.
\_ Well, WI is south of Canada. - !pp
\_ OK, let's take this real slow now. The rest of the
hunters were running away, and Vang pursued them and
then shot them (as in it's kind of difficult to pursue
someone who's standing and fighting). Bye bye self-
defense.
\_ Depends on what happened. If they attacked
Vang and he fought back, then pursued them
b/c he was afraid they would come back and
kill him, he has a valid self defense argument.
Most juries in this country don't really care
if you over-react (see Gotez from NY in 86).
\_ maybe they just want to spread out into the woods
and then hunt Vang down. Also who knows
what firearms they carry in their ATV.
\_ Do you get your tin foil hats cheaper when you
join the tin foil hat of the month club?
\_ they fired the first shot. once that
happened you cannot assume those people
are sane.
\_ In this country, for a crime to be committed
you have to be able to prove intent (in
this case, only provable in the case of the
first guy since he's the only one that
shot). Ability (which is clearly lacking
since only one was armed when Vang started
shooting), and an attempt to commit a crime
(which is really fucking hard to prove if
they're all running away being chased by a
gun-toting maniac).
\_ Err ... we are arguing whether he is
acting in the belief that he needs
to defend himself, not whether a
crime has been committed. Remember
the Halloween case where a Japanese
exchange student was killed because
the shooter thought he was a threat?
\_ Yes and no. The case can be argued
for the first (alleged) shooter. But
in the absence of wrongdoing on the
part of the others, proving that he
had self-defense as a motivator is not
very likely to carry much water.
\_ Actually, the question is not whether
Vang believes he needs to defend
himself, but rather whether Vang can
*reasonably* believe he needs to
defend himself.
\_ White person shoots unarmed Asian:
reasonable.
Asian guy shoots armed White guy:
not reasonable.
Any questions?
\_ Yes. How does it feel
having your head up your
butt 24/7?
\_ Do you really think it will
be any other way? Even if
Vang really was justified
and if it was totally
self-defense, it won't
matter. The jury of his
peers will be white, and
they're just going to see
him as some slant-eyed
murderer.
\_ Yeah, ok. Does your hat use the heavy
foil or the light foil? I assume the
heavy foil offers better protection but the
light is more comfortable.
\_ but he was called names...
\_ Nice troll.
\_ Don't ilyas my thread.
\_ It should be easy to verify that the hunter fired a shot. Has
that been verified?
\_ How would that be easy to verify? Ask the dead witnesses?
\_ First, there is a live witness. Second, it's easy to tell
if a gun was fired. There should be a round or pellets or
something evident.
\_ I'm still trying to figure out how the presence of
a round or pellets will determine who shot first.
\_ I want to know if he fired *AT ALL*. Has this been
verified?
\_ The US Army trained its soldier well.
\_ California National Guard. Man, theyshould send this guy to
Iraq, instead of hunting deer and white folks, hunt Al Qaidans.
\_ Can't we just ignore facts and assume what probably happened:
Vang was ticked, the white people didn't shoot first but shot
off their mouths, then Vang killed all the white people.
\_ It was private property. So really the correct rendition
is he was trespassing, the may have impolitely asked him
to leave, he lost it and murdered them.
\_ How do you "politely" ask someone to leave after you've
shot at them? Vang was already on his way out. The
property was also adjacent to public property, and the
property line wasn't marked.
\_ Someone might have shot into the air. Like the old
"git off my property" hillbilly stereotype.
\_ So someone tells you to leave their private property,
and as you're calmly walking away trying to ignore
their racial slurs, one of them shoots their gun.
Vang, realistically, acted to defend himself.
\_ Let's say someone shot at Vang, Vang blew him away, other guys
started coming, Vang thought they were coming to nail him, Vang
nailed them first, all their guns were hidden, Vang didn't chase
anyone down. Anyways, I still believe the Vang got ticked and
anyone down. Anyways, I still believe that Vang got ticked and
shot everyone theory more.
\_ Hello armchair judges. Here's the fact. The outcome of the
Vang trial has nothing to do with evidence and facts. It has
everything to do with the jury and how the cops conducted
their search. The OJ trial proved just that.
\_ So is the jury all going to be Hmong and they'll find that the
sheriff made racist remarks about Hmong on tape and Vang will
go free and say he's looking for the real killer with every
deer he shewts?
\_ They were running away to get their guns, so Vang has to cut
them down before they got more guns and more people. Shit,
he killed one, but then they called for help and he sees a
another vehicles with a bunch of reinforcements, what is he
supposed to do? He's outnumbered at least 10 to 1, like
Rambo, the man.
\_ "Shot for vagrancy in Jerkwater, USA..."
\_ "But the man kept pushing Sir...They drew first blood,not me."
\_ Those other hunters should have joined a server with
Friendly Fire off!
\_ link:www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/10255877.htm?1c
for a MUCH MORE detailed police report
\_ Wow, this IS detailed. Thanks!
\_ How stupid can you get?
(1) 15 people in the hunting party but they only brought one
gun...are they going to share it or something?
They are either very stupid or lying.
(2) Though unarmed, they start name-calling
"chink,gook,fucking asian" to this guy holding
a semi-automatic rifle. Uh. That's really smart. Duh.
(3) Call more of your idiotic, unarmed ATV-riding friends
on the radio, so they can come by to escalate the situation
and make Vang even more scared and reactionary
Conclusion: white "hunters" deserved to die for being stupid
but Vang is the idiot who will have to go to jail for falling
into their stupid trap.
This is what happened: they see Vang on the platform, they call
up to him: "hey you fucking chink, get out of our tree. You
damn gooks are always trespassing". Then they radio their white
friends, tell them to come over immediately because "we caught
a chinaman on our property." Then the rest of the mob arrives,
surrounds Vang, starts screaming, yelling, cursing at
him saying: "fucking kick your ass, gook", "you fucking chink",
"get the fuck off our property before we fuck you up, chinaman"
Now Vang, being a Man, who has Pride, doesn't get off the
property "fast enough", so white-hunter fires a warning shot
at him. Vang, who is already pissed because (1) he didn't get to
hunt (2) they call him racial slurs (3) they have him outnumbered
(4) his pride is hurt (5) he's been wronged so many times in the
past and just swallowed his pride, and now (6) his life is in
real danger, lashes out and fires like a real soldier and hunter.
Then a 2nd wave of even more shitheads show up on ATVs which
just escalate the danger, he's outnumbered 15-to-1 by
racist whites, who are hunters who would reasonably have
guns, who have threatened him, so he defends himself
(defend in military/moral/emotional, but not legal-sense)
And he at least got some hunting done for the day.
\_ What the fuck?
\_ right.. the poor minority victim was called bad names. Too
bad there is no death penalty in Wi, the taxpayers will have
pay for housing this asshole. All of the facts - deer stand,
scope, number of shots, position of victims, ammunition,
etc. - indicate this guy flipped.
\_ Read the http://twincities.com link. Use http://bugmenot.com for password.
\_ We should let Ilya torture him to death. That'd teach him!
\_ Lucky this guy have a gun. Otherwise he would probably be
beaten to death like Vincent Chin.
\_ This guy lives the pro-gun dream, defending himself against
the odds with his rifle, and the motd right-wing turns on him.
It's shameful. |
| 2004/11/22-23 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35025 Activity:low |
11/22 The Hmong People in the U.S.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/Hmong_tragedy.html
\_ Hmong people Among people.
\_ So, um, I'm curious. Does the rice man wear glasses? Did he
wear glasses when he threw the ilyas-like tantrum?
\_ He ruined hunting for everybody!
\_ He has ruined the reputation of the Hmong people
for generations to come.
\_ Maybe he just descided to hunt the most dangerous game...
\_ I guess McVeigh was the U.S. people in teh U.S. |
| 2004/11/15-16 [Reference/Military] UID:34910 Activity:high 75%like:34945 |
11/15 What's better, Platoon or Full Metal Jacket.
\_ "lean forward and choke yourself"
\_ from FMJ: "This is my rifle, this is my gun (gestures at dick),
this is for fighting, this is for fun (gestures at dick again)."
\_ "Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy from 2,000 meters. And that
guy at the University of Texas shot(those students) from
a thousand feet away. What did they have in common? THey're
both Marines!"
\_ "Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and
fuck my sister."
\_ "We are here to help the Vietnamese because inside every
Gook is an American trying to get out."
\_ Neither. Watch BAT21.
\_ Who said that? Who the fuck said that?! Who's the slimy
little communist shit twinkle toed cock sucker who just
signed his own death warrant?!
\_ http://www.rleeermey.com |
| 2004/11/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:34884 Activity:nil |
11/13 Apparently it's illegal for convicted felons to own body armor
(Title 18 U.S.C. 931(a)), but how about non-felons?
\_ It is legal. But if you commit a crime it will double the
penalty. This is in response to a San Francisco officer
killed in the line of duty in a shoot-out against a body armor
wearing criminal. Try to avoid stuff made of Zylon, and remember
they are warranteed for 5 years. Look up NIJ Level protection. |
| 2004/11/13-14 [Reference/Military] UID:34877 Activity:very high |
11/13 I thought the purpose of the Marines is to get on the boat and
land on the coast to secure a place for barge, equipments and
for more reinforcements, like exactly what they did in D-Day.
Why are there so many Marines inside Iraq, fighting non-water
related battles?
\_ marines do the initial battle to clear up for the
army to maintain and hold ground.
\_ Marines are the toughest of the regular services. Their
physical standards are held to a higher standard and their
boot camps is longer than the typical Army GI. BTW, D-Day
had more Army units doing amphibious assaults.
\_ That still doesn't answer the question, though. !op
\_ if you need it spelled out... marines > army
\_ Except for the airborne. -ausman
\_ Ah. People who get paid to run up beaches at
machine guns vs. people who get paid to jump out
of planes on top of machine guns. Great. -John
\_ marine(adj)-- 1 a : of or relating to the sea <marine life>
b : of or relating to the navigation of the sea : NAUTICAL
<a marine chart> c : of or relating to the commerce of the
sea : MARITIME <marine law> d : depicting the sea,
seashore, or ships <a marine painter>
\_ On perhaps a related note, does each branch of the military
(navy, army, airforce, etc) have a documented responsibilities?
I mean, what's the difference between them, and where is it
actually written out and defined?
\_ Yes you guessed it, they have turf wars all the time. -- ilyas
\_ The Marine Corp and Navy have their own air forces as
does the Army to a lesser degree. Every force except
for the marines has their own ground troops: the Marines
are supposed to be the Navy's ground troops, but don't
tell a squid that. I don't think the Air Force has too
many ships, but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that
the Army does. -ausman
\_ Army's only ships are contract prepositioning ships.
\_ Not quite -- http://tinyurl.com/3zzo7 . You can see
an ACoE ship in SF Bay sometimes. -John
\_ As someone pointed out above, the Marines are simply better
and more comprehensively trained and better equipped for
rapid deployment than most Army units. One can view the name
as largely historical and the fact that they remain a separate
branch as a testament to their effectiveness and perhaps
more importantly the PR and political skills of their leadership
over the years. The classical amphibious assault itself is
arguably an obsolete tactic - the last significant US amphibious
assault I can think of is McArthur's landing in Inchon in
late 1950, during the Korean War. In addition, the Marines
are generally less specialized than the more elite Army units
such as Airborne and the Rangers - unlike the Army, they have
their own fixed-wing ground-support aircraft, their own UAVs,
their own armour (including M1 tanks) and can more easily execute
a "combined arms" operation (up to a certain scale, of course)
on their own. This makes them an attractive option for military
planners in difficult but constrained engagements such as in
Fallujah. This of course, has its price - Marines are often
disporpotionately represented in the casualty figures when
serious fighting takes place. -pvg
\_ As I recall, the Marines were originally for boat-to-boat
combat. I could be wrong though.
\_ They were just a warship's military contingent. They guarded
ships and watched prisoners, so the whole ship-to-ship thing
kind of naturally evolved. And instead of having to carry
a bunch of seasick army guys around to go beat up on some S.
Pacific natives, it was easier to just have your on-board
security detail do it. That's where the beach invasion force
bit comes from; because warships were also the first on the
scene in faraway places, marines were usually the guys you
had guard colonists and embassies, just because they were
easiest and quickest to get there; that's also the reason why
they're the most mobile bunch, and it's historically why you'll
be more likely to find them blowing up stuff in faraway places
than the regular army. -John
\_ To get mildly pedantic, historically, marines were not
so much a security unit but what the name
implies - a ship-borne group of soldiers. Their 17th
century Royal Navy name - "Maritime Regiment of Foot"
pretty much tells the story as does the "Gibraltar"
on Royal Marines insignia, a reference to a 1704 battle
where their role was neither primarily that of ship-to-ship
combat nor protective detail. -pvg
\_ "security" includes preventing guys with swords from
climbing on your boat :-) -John
\_ so based on the above they should change the name Marines -/
since it has nothing to do with water nowadays
\_ Absolutely! And while at it, one might decimate all instances
of such wildly inappropriate naming! Sure, Airborne jumps from
planes but when's the last time there was a significant airborne
operation? Rename the 10th Mountain, all units designated
"cavalry" and british fusiliers, grenadiers, etc. Wait, and
the word "decimate" doesn't really mean "reduce to a 10th of"
so excise that from dictionaries as well. And stop calling
computers and other equipment "digital" since it has nothing
to do with fingers nowadays. -pvg
the |
| 2004/11/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34839 Activity:moderate |
11/11 As far as I know, a sniper's bullet is bigger than 1 cm, so it should
be visible with, say, 40 GHz radar. So it should be possible to have
a radar scanner that tracks the bullet back and tells the exact location
of the sniper, at least in theory. This doesn't sound all that hard
to me. Why the hell don't we have such technology deployed in Iraq?
is there a technical problem I'm missing here?
\_ An interesting discussion about this:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/archive/index.php/t-196.html
\_ Sniper/Bullet Track radar has been around for awhile. I'd guess
it's not deployed in Fallujah for several reasons, but mainly the
sensitivity/complexity of the equipment isn't very compatible with
the conditions of a mobile assualt (too time consuming to set up,
to much likelihood of rough handling). Also, the urban environment
is pretty claustrophobic and my not be conducive to effective radar
system deployment.
\_ Odd. I'd assume that it is precisely in urban areas where
snipers are the most dangerous. It's probably relatively
easy to hunt down a sniper in a wide open space.
\_ Easy? That really depends on teh terrain. There are many
accounts of snipers doing terrible damage in open terrian
where there's no cover, etc. Note: USEFUL != USABLE.
\_ I saw something similar on Tactical to Practical on the
History Channel two years ago. They already have a working
implementation that uses the high speed camera to capture
bullet traces, in real time. Why it's not deployed in
Iraq, my guess is probably due to mass production/
copy-right/law issues than the technical reason.
\_ There are a number of systems, at least one of which uses
multiple units to triangulate the shot's origin. The problem
with every single one of these is that they're (a) unwieldy,
(b) fragile, and (c) require you to be looking at least in the
general direction of where the bullet is coming from--not always
practical in a combat situation. -John
\_ tell us about zhe Elite Churman Sniperscutze, John
\_ Difficult, yermom's playing with it. |
| 2004/11/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34827 Activity:high |
11/11 link:tinyurl.com/58wlo Sniper in Falluja stopped 150 marines, surviving two 500 pound bombs, 35 155mm shells, 10 shots from Abrams tanks and 30000 rounds of automatic rifle. Reminds me of Full Metal Jacket and Enemies at the Gate. \_ Damn! They missed their chance to kill Kim Jung Il's panther! \_ I think the Marines have more ammo than they have sniper guys. \_ Snipers don't exactly burn through ammo, you know. Anyway, the point is that 1 guy can tie up 150 guys in unfriendly territory \_ Sorry, badly phrased. Related to the "not keeping anything secret from the enemy" thread earlier, the US military approach has always been "drop enormous amount of stuff on it and if it still moves, drop more stuff on it." Doesn't look like they got the guy, but each good sniper whacked is less replaceable than 30,000 rounds of ammo. -John \_ That reminds me of a scene from "Platton", where one young woman \_ That reminds me of a scene from "Platoon", where one young woman hiding in a building with a rifle killed several marines before she was found and killed. \_ You mean Full Metal Jacket. \_ No I've never seen that. \_ ya, I agree w/ pp. I've never seen Platoon, but know theres a scene like that in FMJ. \_ Ok, has anyone SEEN Platoon? \_ Yeah there's one at yermom's house right now. \_ You mean FMJ. \_ all it takes for the terrorist to win is to snipe one marine a day in all major cities. Snipe one, blend into population, repeat the next day. Such is urban warfare. \_ If you won't have sex with me, it will mean that the terrorists have won. \_ I don't think that would produce a 'win' although it will kill some Marines. May as well snipe one citizen a day in Washington, D.C. Oh, that's been done. \_ I was watching documentary the other day, and it says that during the war of 1814, the British commander was killed by a US sniper, which saved the day for the US. \_ The War of 1814? Oooh... \_ I think it's 1812. \_ I think the same thing happened in the Canadian-American War. \_ no, it was a brit. by the time he was shot and killed he already led his british army to burn US capital down. madison, who was kind of a nerd, was forced to run away. \_ Chicom troll has taken history lesson! \_ I thought bad brits only burned china capital down. didn't know they burnt US capital down too. hahaha! US made Britain its maid today while dxp kicked brits out of HK and made Iron Lady cry "He's so cold hearted!" Is that good revenge? - chicom toad \_ Are you Hong-Kongese? Do you understand the effect ...... oh never mind. |
| 2004/11/7-8 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34735 Activity:kinda low |
11/7 Man commits suicide at ground zero:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/07/ground.zero.suicide.ap/index.html
\- Does anybody find it odd these people dont er "take some people
with them" ... or i guess the peopel inclined to do this kind of
thing dont have that kind of personality.
\_ They're an Army Of One
\_ What about that Japanese guy who cut a bunch of people with
a samurai sword in a supermarket in Irvine before he was shot?
\_ liberals are crazy -patriotic conservative troll
\_ This was a patriotic conservative crazy Japanese samurai
sword Irvine supermarket suicide warrior. -John
\_ How many more to go? |
| 2004/11/5 [Reference/Military] UID:34694 Activity:very high |
11/4 Can anyone give me some tips on how to, where at, and how much it costs
to train with guns in the state of California? I want to try the most
common pistols, rifles, shotguns, and semi-automatic assault rifles --
probably one lesson a month in some new set of weapons.
I feel this should not be strictly a hobby of the right. Also, does
anyone have a recommendation for an all-around, reliable semi-automatic
assault rifle and pistol? Thanks! -liberal (Yes, I'm totally serious.)
\_ Best place to train http://www.internationaltactical.com (in LA)
active LAPD SWAT officers are the instructor, cheap courses,
most available to civilians as well. Most of the rest are all
overpriced (4 figures+) with instructors who have never been in
gunfight. Scott Reitz has been in 15 (he's a certified court
consultant on use of force as well as consultant to many movies)
\_ Y'all shuh ya safe shootun wit uz dum raid naik hiks? Wez not two
braight butt wez kin smail ah liberul fer milez! Scuuze meh butt
ah gotta gow fuck da pig!
\_ For pistols, Beretta 92(9mm), USP9 (9mm), Smith and Wesson 5903
(9mm) are all pretty decent weapons that are pretty simple to
operate and comfortable to shoot. When you've gotten comfortable
with a 9mm, you may want to try more aggressive calibers like
.40, 10mm, .45, etc. As a side note, I believe that most
competition weapons are either .22 (a very small bullet) or .45.
Many of the .45's that I've shot have a _hair trigger_ so
definitely be careful -- always ask the rangemaster about a new
weapon that you've never used before. -mice
\_ .45 hair trigger? Try Sigs in single action mode next time.
Find a friend - most ranges don't rent out Sigs. -jlee
\_ Jackson Arms in South SF did at one point, give them a call.
\_ My 1945 Remington-Rand most definitely does not have a hair
trigger. -John
\_ My brother-in-law had an Argentinian 1911 which fired
with only a very light touch once it was cocked. I've
never had a tighter group than I had with that. -mice
\_ Well mine kicks like a mule and is all over the place,
but that's probably because I can't hit the side of
a barn. -John
\_ John, I think your 1911 is broken. I am almost
certain you have stronger hands than me, and I can
handle a 1911 just fine. -- ilyas
\_ Ilya, re-read. I am a miserable shot. Period.
\_ No I meant about kicking. I don't blame you
for shooting badly, that depends wildly on
the tolerances of the 1911. The milspec ones
are so loose they rattle. -- ilyas
\_ Heh -- the kick wasn't so bad on that weapon. I
played around with shooting it one handed, and the
kick was manageable. As for barn hitting, well,
my claims about a tight group are rather relative
to my own (unimpressive) skill level. -mice
\_ Actually, I rather like the hair trigger -- I'm just pointing
out that it's best to ask the rangermaster for information
out that it's best to ask the rangemaster for information
about a weapon if it's the first time you've used a weapon
and you're still relatively new the hobby. -mice
and you're still relatively new to the hobby. -mice
\_ cf "*Many* of the .45's" != "*All* of the .45's", etc.
\_ In my personal experience, hair-triggers were the
exception, not the rule, among .45's. I remember
being rather surprised at how sensitive the trigger
was on that Argentinian when I shot it. Revolvers, on
the other hand, when set to single action? Hair.
Trigger. -geordan
\_ No, it's not the rule, and it wasn't my intention to
imply that. Thanks for clarifying. -mice
\_ I actually started out with revolvers. Less to worry about,
just shove the bullets in and pull the trigger.
\_ I'd report you to Ashcroft, but it looks like he's retiring.
\_ To try out "stuff", there are loads of pistol ranges (STFW). Many
have different kinds of pistols for rent, so try out various
calibers and see what fits the bill. Concerning rifles, I
remember going to a "federally designated shooting area" (basically
a big open field full of hayseeds popping off ammo from picnic
tables) near Chico; they were very friendly and informative about
various guns. To get the feel of a rifle, you can pick up a
Russian SKS for about 50 bucks. Go to a gun shop, preferably a
well-lit, reputable looking one, and chat with the people there,
you may be surprised at how helpful they are. -John
\- make sure you wear your united states of canada/jesusland
tshirt. --psb
\_ You'd be surprised. A lot of the guys running shooting
ranges only care about one thing, do you support their
idea of the 2nd amednment. Being at a gun range asking
for gun advice makes them like you, cause you probably do.
\_ Thanks! Two more questions: About how much should I expect to
spend at a gun range as a first-timer, and how long is it?
\_ If you live in the Bay Area, there are a number of good ranges
or clubs that you can check out. I've found that, for an
indoor pistol range, Target Masters West is very, very good.
The staff is knowledgeable and friendly, and selection of
rentable firearms is decent. You'll need to bring a friend
if you don't bring your own firearm. Cost? Well, $8 per
hour for most weapons, $10 for a lane for an hour, plus ammo:
for a nine millimeter, figure about $8/50 rounds, for a
.40 or .45 closer to $12/50 rounds. So, perhaps around $50
or so. -mice
\_ And 50 rounds goes a lot faster than you'd think. Ammo
is where the big costs. Think about buying some beforehand
if you know what caliber you want to shoot. -aspo
\_ Found this: http://www.dragunov.net/bay_area_ranges.htm
I recommend taking someone along to show you the basics
and safety-type stuff if it's your first time. If you're
serious, I think it's a good idea to take a gun safety
course (contact your local cops). -John
\_ I agree. Get someone who knows how to shoot to show
you the ropes. You probably do know someone, ask
around and you may be surprised. -aspo
\_ I don't know anyone who already own guns, so can I learn
the basics from a safety class? - not op
\_ "basics" = rtfm to find out how the safety works,
never ever point it at someone you don't intend to
shoot, including yourself, always assume a gun is
loaded, never keep a round in the chamber, buy a
trigger lock (ca. 25 bucks), use it, keep ammo and
guns locked up from children, know how much ammo
fits in a magazine, load it, point it, slowly
in/exhale (whatever works for you), squeeze your
hand like you would an orange, and occasionally it
will go bang and a piece of lead will fly out the
front real fast. There is nothing to be scared of.
Just think of it like a big power tool. Range
staff will usually show you what to do, don't be
afraid to tell them that you're completely new at
this. -John
\_ I'm not scared of the guns so much as the ammo. I'm scared
that if I drop a bullet it might go off (is that possible?)
Or a "bad load" might explode (down the road, y'know). -!pp
\_ In order for a dropped bullet to go off, it would need to
fall, primer first, on something sturdy and sharp, in just
the right way. Don't worry about it. I don't think you
have to worry about modern ammo exploding on you either.
The biggest problem with ammo is some bullets simply not
firing (something wrong with the powder, etc), at which
point you have to clear out the resulting jam. Honestly,
the biggest possibility of injury at a gun range, if you
are non-insane is firing a calibre that's a little too
big for you to handle, so the firearm injures you during
recoil (some people I know hurt their hands shooting
.44 mag revolvers, or their shoulders by not bracing
properly when shooting shotguns). And by injury here I
mean 'ow, that smarts,' not 'ow, my bone is broken.'
-- ilyas
\_ common injuries w/ weapons that have slides, e.g.
most semi-automatics, is careless placement of non
trigger hand. the slide moves back and can slice
\_ also watch the trigger hand, depending on the size
of the grip and placement of your hand...
of a nice chunk. keep hand away or in a proper
supporting grip as they teach.
if you want to learn to shoot, practice patience
rather than seeing how many rounds you can squeeze
off in a session. a good shooter i knew would go
to the range for a half hour to shoot 10 rounds
and then go home, as training.
you won't get a "bad load" unless you take
a hand-loaded round from some nutcase. |
| 2004/10/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:34381 Activity:high |
10/27 I have a S&W .38 long nose. It's fairly accurate to 20, 25 yrds. I
would like to purchase an underbarrel laser light for it. Does any
of the motd gun users have a good suggestion? Ok thx.
\_ KEYCHAIN LASER + DUCT TAPE IS THE STANDARD!!!
\_ May I ask why you want one? I mean it's alright to want one,
I am just curious if you have any actual need for one. Like
do you think it will help you shoot better? -- ilyas
\_ I probably don't have any real need for one, being that "real"
is supposedly combat situations only. However, at the local
unofficial range there is a contest for draw-and-fire shooting
which the sight supposedly would help with.
\_ I don't think the laser would help me shoot better. My
bottleneck is my hands not my eyes. -- ilyas
\_ surefire. surefire. surefire.
\_ Why a flashlight over a laser sight?
\_ Whoa, I just went and tried out my .45 (first handgun in about 12
years) and let's just say that if I ever get mugged, I hope there's
about 30 of them, in a very widely spread and randomly distributed
crowd. How do you actually _hit_ anything shooting directly
from the draw? -John
\_ That's why we practice from the draw. You probably can't do it
at an official range.
\_ get a shutgun, and saw off the barrel a bit.
\_ Weaver-stance
\_ so, like, why didn't you get a 9mm
\_ Because 9mm is not THE STANDARD. -- 45 ACP #1 fan
\_ Because I'm already getting my dad's army SIG P210, because
I like the look & feel of the .45, because it makes a BIG
BANG, and because 9mm is not THE STANDARD. And I may get
_ a .50 Desert Eagle sometime down the road. -John
\_ why the fascination iwith a gun that costs $1/bullet to
practice. I've shot DE .44 and ruger .44 (revolver) and
found it sufficient "machoness". If i really wanted to
push it, ther'es the 30.06 handgun, the .44 derringer and
a whole bunch of black powder snaplock alternatives.
\_ .50 DE Mark XIX are not CA Legal. But you can get a .44 DE
and swap out the barrel.
\_ Good thing I'm not in CA then. All non-full auto
weapons are legal here; tradeoff is that places to
shoot them are very limited. -John
\_ huh? don't you live in Switzerland? I thought
all adult male citizens were required by law to
have a fully automatic rifle for the militia.
\_ Well all the ones that couldn't get a section 8
to avoid spending 18 weeks doing pushups in the
mud while some farm boy career failure yells at
you. And there are plenty of shooting ranges,
but you only get to use "ordnance" weapons,
i.e. models that are, or were at some point,
standard army issue. -John
\_ Oh yeah? I got a friend who is a contractor in
Iraq,He has fully auto matic pistols and a big penis!
\_ Phul auto matic pistol is teh gay.
\_ DAMN YOU! I WANT A P210! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!! -- ilyas
/
\_ How about the .50?
\_ seriously, why the flashlight? What advantage does a flash light
give you to hit the target. Anyone there recommend a laser sight
brand? Thanks |
| 2004/10/26-27 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34366 Activity:high |
10/26 Awesome. Children's puppet show encourages massacre.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41091
\_ I love You, You love me
We'll murder the Zionist Enemy...
\_ that's hilarious, sad it's true.. sheesh..
\_ If your livelihood was an olive grove, maybe you'd want to shoot
the people ripping it out.
\_ Oh please. Did you catch the palestinians were using the
trees to hide rocket launchers?
\_ I knew that, but the people firing rockets from olive
groves are not the same people who live/work there. The
Israeli Army's distinct lack of sympathy for innocent
farmers is not exactly winning them friends.
\_ And how would you suggest an army deal with this
situation? Ask them to stop?
\_ Look, if they feel the need to destroy an olive grove
for security reasons, that's OK, but you need to pay
them a fair-market price if you're going to take away
their means of earning a living. From what I've
heard they just send in the buldozers and say
'tough shit'.
\_ Did you know that if the police destroy your
property while pursuing a suspect, etc. they are
not liable for damages? Sounds like you don't
know much about established law.
\_ From what you've heard? Still reading dailykos?
Or is that the PLO website?
\_ Wow, the governments on your planet must be
really fucking cool. Could you kindly cite an
actual example of any existing government
compensating individuals (in this case
non-citizens!) for property destroyed/seized
for security reasons within a reasonable
timeframe following the destruction/seizure?
\_ The US Army routinely reimburses non-citizens
for property damage incurred during training.
I know this for a fact, since I saw it happen
in Panama. -Vet
\_ I am unaware of any police department deciding
they are in the business of punishing people,
that is a matter for our correctional system.
\_ If the army flattened your house while persuing
terrorists in this country, you would probably
be reimbursed but it isn't guaranteed. If your
property was being used to hide weapons and you
didn't report it and the military destroyed your
house, tough shit.
\_ Actually, you probably wouldn't be reimbursed,
even in the case where you were just an
innocent bystander.
\_ There's no need to speak hypothetically
here. One word: Waco.
\_ But they were religious nutters so they
don't have any rights. Just because
Reno could have had Koresh picked up
in town when he made shopping trips,
usually alone, twice a week.
\_ yea, easy for you to say. report it, and
the next day, you will be killed by those
bastards for "collaborating with the
enemy". |
| 2004/10/23-24 [Reference/Military] UID:34308 Activity:moderate |
10/23 How do fighter jets "escort" a civilian plane exactly?
\_ They get real close to it, keep a lock on it, and let the
pilot know any funny bussiness means kablowie.
\_ I was under the impression they fly up to them and say
"w3 pwn j00!!"
\_ or, if doing a protective escort, make it clear that others
are not to fuck with the civilian plane. there's also the
guidance escort where the civilian plane is shown where to go
When foreign acrobatic squadrons come into the US, they may
be unfamiliar with how things work in US airspace or not
the avionics required by the FAA. |
| 2004/10/21 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:34275 Activity:kinda low |
10/21 Does someone have a link to the Daily Show clip with the "weapons of
mass destruction program related activities" and Dubya using words to
save the day? I accidentally deleted my copy. I notice there are no
more clips in /csua/tmp/dailyshow.
\_ if you email me the date i can help you out - danh |
| 2004/10/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34035 Activity:very high |
10/11 Regarding the Sadr City cash-for-arms 5-day program that began today
(for which Iraqis will receive $150 US for each AK-47), do you think
they'll be turning in rusted weapons for cash and it will be played up
politically; will it be a real disarmament; or where in between these
extremes?
\- This is sort of fun to review: ~psb/MOTD/GunBuyBack
\- This is sort of fun to review: ~psb/MOTD/IraqGunBuyBack
\_ I'm not sure I understand your reference to Year of Living
Dangerously, though it tickles me pink to think of you and mkb
cooking up a guns-for-ca$h scheme. --erikred
\-YLD shows that people are motivated by more than
pecuniary factors. you may wish to read:
http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i39/39b01001.htm
--psb
\- they're going to get $150 and buy 3 AK-47s at $50 each from Iran,
Libya, etc. It's gonna get popular!
\-the possibility of arbitrage and the fact that exposes to light
the arms smuggle path is dicussed in the thread.
\_ I wouldn't want to be the guy driving the truck with the 4000
AK47s in it over the border from Iran or Syria. It's not worth
the risk some trigger happy pilot will blow up me and my truck
from 5 miles away and I'll be dead before the sound wave of
the missile reaches me.
\_ truck? just use a donkey cart, with a kid or two on top. |
| 2004/10/4-6 [Reference/Military, Science/Physics] UID:33922 Activity:high |
10/4 Photon Torpedos anyone?
http://tinyurl.com/62nk9 (sfgate.com)
\_ A photon is not matter. However, they *have* used antimatter
weapons in trek.
\_ m = E / c^2 :-)
\_ No, a photon has no mass. You just gave the mass-equivalence
of a photon.
\_ Photon Torpedos are based on antimater:
http://www.ccdump.org/photontorps.html
http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/photontorpedo.htm
\_ Nothing will come from this for many decades, if ever. They should
be spending that money on something useful like the homeless or
universal health care.
\_ You can use the homeless as weapons? Cool!
\_ The article mentions positronium, but makes no mention of trying to
use antihydrogen. Is there some reason positronium is preferable?
\_ We have to catch up to the terrorists who are already building
anti-matter weapons out of unobtanium.
\_ Why do you hate America?
\_ Why is this conducted by the Air Force? Shouldn't it be the Dept of
Dept of Energy? Air Force should be working on better planes,
Energy in a Lawrence lab? Air Force should be working on better planes,
better missles, and maybe better space-based weapons, not working on
something that involves so much fundamental physics.
\_ The Air Force typically has always held sway over the "cutting
edge/whiz bang/star trek side" of military tech.
\_ no. I know of quite a bit of far-out physics research
that gets funded by both the Navy and the Army. The army
spends a lot of money on quantum computing, and you can't
get much more star trek than that.
\_ My computer told me otherwise this morning. It was built
by the USMC with Marine-Tech(tm). |
| 2004/9/27 [Reference/Military] UID:33788 Activity:nil |
9/27 MOTD gun nuts: Considering buying an M1 Garand. What's better,
30-06 or NATO 7.62? I haven't used 30-06, but if there's no diff,
that caliber costs about 3 times as much here. -John
\_ There is a difference, of course. 30-06 has longer effective
range, 7.62 can be made a little more accurate, if you are into
that sort of thing. In practice, try shooting both, and use
the largest calibre you can comfortably shoot. 30-06 will kick
more. On a slightly unrelated note, isn't an M1 Garand a
_military_ rifle? Tsk, tsk, there ought to be a law, deadly
military-style weapons on our streets, etc. etc. -- ilyas
\_ "our" streets? DOesn't John live in Switzerland?
\_ Amazing that their streets aren't flowing with the blood
of non-believers, no? The M1 is legal in most of the US,
btw. -- ilyas
\_ get a Remington 700 PSS
\_ I used that in Medal of Honor, it's pretty lousy. I'd prefer
M16 as it is more accurate and less recoil.
\_ banned in California
\_ Hey gun nuts, do your activities damage your hearing?
\_ muffled ear protection
\_ Well, I've seen a lot of videos and things where people aren't
wearing any ear protection. And somehow I doubt hunters wear
any. And I never heard of infantry having ear protection on
duty. Too bad silencers are illegal.
\_ Don't silencers mess up accuracy? -!gun nut
\_ most do. but they don't have to. Surefire (makers
of high performance flashlights and laser sighting
products) now makes a very well designed sound
suppressor for the M4 carbine (5.56/.223) which
has good acoustic performance, slight improvement
on muzzle velocity, and minimal (less than 1 minute
of angle) impact on accuracy. http://www.surefire.com
\_ I'm reading their marketing articles and they claim
that accuracy is improved (tighter groups). The l.t.
1 minute of angle referred to point of impact shift.
\_ the surefire sound suppressor does both. --Jon
\_ pedantic sidenote: accuracy is the proper term
for 1MOA impact on point of aim. precision would
be the proper term for the fact that the shots
all end up in a tighter group. --Jon
\_ They also describe cases of police officers getting
damaged hearing so I guess the answer to my original
question was "yes".
\_ they may be wearing ear plugs. also, outdoors shooting
is easier on the ears than indoors. |
| 2004/9/23 [Reference/Military] UID:33712 Activity:high |
9/23 Dear MOTD gun nuts: My dad bought an "estate" in the middle of
bumfuck nowhere. There are wolves, wildcats and inbred Frenchmen
roaming the hills. I'm shopping around for a shotgun for him.
Looking for something sturdy, not too expensive, with reasonable
range. It's not so much for hunting as for "git-the-hayl-off-mah-
property-ya-varmint". Not tremendously loud would be a plus. -John
\_ Big 5 has Mossberg 500, go to http://ammoman.com for Tactical 00 buckshot
in 12 guage
\_ Benellis are nice. I like the M3. -- ilyas
\_ Shotguns can be fairly generic. If you want range, look at a long
barrel. Figure you're loading either birdshot or rock salt, but
that's not going to help you out past a fairly short range.
\_ This is my BOOMSTICK!
\_ Thanks--what's "short"? He's a crack shot, and the idea
is to be able to nail something the size of a razorback at
about 80 feet. Any particular brands I should be looking at?
\_ mossberg. remington. hell, any reason not to get a bolt action
rifle in .223 remington and 20inch barrel (varmint size)?
\- Why is it that you are not getting the Remington 870? --psb |
| 2004/9/14 [Reference/Military] UID:33527 Activity:insanely high |
9/14 Is America becoming more like Texas since Bush came to power?
Except Californians should have stylish, never-fired full-auto
weapons in a hidden pop-up mount above the driver's side door of
their Lexus SUVs -- not rusty hunting rifles and pump shotguns on a
gauche gun rack of a 20-year-old pickup truck. The Bay Area
syadmins can have .50 cal desert eagles with laser sight and scope
on a holster in their cube. What do you think?
\_ Desert eagle = teh suk.
\_ I don't know that I'd got that far, but there are certainly
better guns out there.
\_ They do indeed suck. - *owned* one. Only liked Golden Sabre
not it's own IMI JHP.
\_ I like it in Max Payne
\_ If my sysadmin brought a gun to work, I'd have him escorted
out by the police.
\_ Why do you hate the 2nd amendment?
\_ I'm not the pp, but I've worked with armed people who
were *really* into guns, and have no problem with it;
none of them were sysadmins. If a *sysadmin* showed up
with a gun I'd call the police or get my own gun.
\_ unless you own the business or are charged with such duties
by your employer, you should really stfu.
\_ why should he? what glorious place to do you work
at where it is acceptable to show up armed? - danh
\_ Don't quote me on this, but I believe anyone with
a CCW (CA grants them) can take a gun to work,
unless there are explicit building prohibitions
(or its a federal building). So the answer is:
almost any place where people work, probably
including where you work. -- ilyas
\_ While technically this may be true, most companies
have strict policy against this. They may not be
able to prosecute you criminally, but they can still
fire your ass and have you escorted from the premises.
\_ you "work" at UCLA don't you? so you lose.
\_ And, unlike Diane Feinstein, I don't have
a CCW. -- ilyas
\_ if my coworker or boss had been armed at my last job,
someone definitely would have died. - danh
\_ http://www.packing.org
\_ An armed employee without license to carry said arms
is in violation of the law in most states. As such,
it would be obstruction of justice not to report the
psycho and have him removed.
\_ where did "without license" come into play here?
\_ Sorry, so you're suggesting a scenario based on
the heretofore nonexistent premise that anyone can
carry/display a gun outside of one's own home?
\_ Pansy liberal. Once you own a gun, you'll
understand. You'll want to carry it everywhere
to maximize your investment, and feel its cool,
reassuring metal against your skin. Make sure
everyone knows you have the gun, otherwise they
won't give you the respect you deserve.
\_ I love this comment. Thank you MOTD! --aaron
\_ Cue SLEDGE HAMMER! theme.
\_ You already get the respect you deserve, you
pathetic worm. A gun's not going to make a
man out of you. Your mother should have
drowned you at birth. Your father was right
to say you'll never amount to anything. Prove
me wrong, pussy! I'll be waiting for you on
lawn of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., Washington, DC.
I'll be the one getting out of the helicopter.
\_ Boy, you're almost as eloquent as the
genius who said he'd get me "kicked out of
the city" if I lived in his neighborhood,
because I stood by the fact that I tend
to speed. By the way, I'm going shooting
tomorrow afternoon. -John
\_ Absolutely capital, John. Try not to
shoot your sense of humor off-- oh,
wait, you don't _have_ a sense of
humor.
\_ that's nice. do you bring your gun to work? no you
do not. now fuck off.
\_ I think you've been trolled.
\_ And it was worth every penny -John
\_ ahem.. jkh.. ahem..
\_ I'm not sure where to inject some sense into this
mess, but I think the point being made is that carrying
of firearms (except on school campuses) in a business
(or a private home for that matter) is up to the owner
of said home of business. But far be it from me to
know the minds of others -Jon
\_ In a few jobs, it is reasonable to carry a gun to
work: Dude ranch guide, wildcatter, back country
guide, even 7-11 clerk. But if you carry a gun to
your white collar office job, you are going to be
seen as a dangerous maniac by your co-workers.
\_ again, a matter for your employer to decide.
granted, you shouldn't make the decision for
your employer by bringing it without discussion.
where is your brain? |
| 2004/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:33523 Activity:nil |
9/14 I like this quote from the dailycal (About the assualt weapon ban:
"The 10-year-old law, a major achievement of Sen. Dianne
Feinstein, D-Calif., outlawed the types of weapons used in the
2000 Columbine High School shooting." 2000 < 10 years ago...
http://dailycal.org/article.php?id=16091
\_ were the weapons used in the columbine high school
shootings legally obtained or not?
\_ Or... maybe they were >10 years old.
\_ Next on CNN: Sen. Feinstein (D) proposes to prevent another
9/11-style terrorist attack by outlawing airplanes.
\_ When airplanes are outlawed, only outlaws will have airplanes.
\_ We should get right to the heart of the matter and outlaw all
criminal behavior. Then only criminals will commit crimes.
\_ Are you trying to suggest the ban is a bad idea because it did not
prevent all of the banned weapons from being used? People are still
being murdered, maybe we should repeal murder laws.
\_ It's kind of like stopping terrorism. You don't really notice how
many terrorist acts have been preempted from happening. Similarly,
you don't notice how many Columbine like incidents have been
prevented by the "assault" weapon ban.
\_ it's like sysadm. You don't know how good the sysadms are
until your machines crash. -underappreciated sysadm
\_ The pubbies are letting the assault weapons ban lapse so that
AMERICANS CAN LOAD UP ON ASSAULT WEAPONS TO DEFEND AMERIKKKA!!!
"If America shows uncertainty and weakness in this decade, the
world will drift toward tragedy." -GW Bush
(nevermind you will need to go out of CA state to get some ...) |
| 2004/9/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:33471 Activity:very high |
9/10 is it true that police deaths from assault weapons have
gone down significantly since the assault weapons ban
10 years ago? thanks. - danh
\_ This is a statistic listed on feinstein.senate.gov, which I have
no reason to doubt. My problem is that they don't report other
interesting statistics like:
(a) how many police were actually killed by assault weapons
(b) In what percentage of crimes were assault weapons used
(c) how many police deaths involving non-assault weapons were
caused by the ban (by making the criminals choose some other
weapon), and so on.
In short, what I feel is missing from this ban, and a lot of
legislation in general, is a comprehensive study of actual effects
of the legislation. Bans are a restriction of liberty and merit
much more serious deliberation than I feel they are being given.
-- ilyas
\_ based on the number of posts you have made in the last 24 hours,
i command you to read this:
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/comics.php
\_ I d do some work, but I ve been sick. -- ilyas
\_ did police deaths by assault weapon go down dramatically
after the sort of assault weapons ban or not? i guess
we'll know more about the direct correlation in a year!
\_ Did you read the url? Did you read the reply? Do you know
how to read?
\_ is it just banning fully automatic? If so, it is useless because
you can't aim a fully automatic anyways due to recoils
\_ but you can go nuts with it in a crowded school playground!
\_ Full-auto/3-rd burst are class III weapons anyways. Need
to be SOT to get one. This ban was NOT a ban on assault
weapons. But on semi-auto rifles that looked "evil."
\_ or anything where you fire more than one shot for
each trigger pull.
\_ whoah, good point! You better alert all the militaries in the
world about that.
\_ In the marine sniper school there hangs a plaque listing
bullets-spent/kill for normal soldiers (a few hundred
thousand) vs snipers (1.3).
\_ I'm glad you pointed that out. Now what is a MOA?
Better yet, tell me your exp. in the armed forces?
\_ http://www.google.com/search?q=Minute+of+angle
Now tell me your exp. being a know-nothing sysadmin
who likes to pontificate about politics. |
| 2004/9/10 [Reference/Military] UID:33454 Activity:nil |
9/10 The NY Times has a fair and balanced summary (really) of various
studies of the effect of the assault weapons ban and its loopholes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/10/national/10guns.html |
| 2004/9/8 [Reference/Military] UID:33420 Activity:nil |
9/8 The thread got nuked, but I am still hoping for a defense of current
gun control (banning scary looking guns) from someone. Surely among
the faithful liberals here on soda _someone_ actually believes this,
rather than just closing one's eyes to another unsavory thing the
Democrats push through? -- ilyas
\_ Ilya, it's not a question of banning guns, or of democrats vs.
republicans. Restricting who gets guns (criminals, the insane),
making people wait a bit of time between application and permission
to buy, ensuring that people understand gun safety and handling,
and possibly, although I'm not prepared to argue either side of
this, heavily restricting fully automatic weapons ownership, are
all generally good things. -John
\_ Sure, but that's not what I was asking about. I was asking
about the bans on 'scary looking guns,' like the Dragunov for
example. Crazy people and criminals shouldn't have guns, of
course, etc. -- ilyas
\_ so why do you?
\_ Because a criminal gives up his rights by commiting a crime.
A 'crazy person' has legal restrictions on their rights,
which I think is as reasonable as restricting rights of
children (i.e. a good thing). I fall into neither category.
-- ilyas
\_ Hmmm, so someone like Marth Stewart should be banned
from carrying a gun because she's been convicted.
Interesting line of thought. -williamc
\_ I think it goes without saying that it depends on
the crime committed. It would be boring to argue
exactly where the line is, but it surely exists.
\_ This isn't an answer to your question, because I don't believe in
that sort of law and don't have a defense. I just wanted to say
that both parties have boatloads of unsavory things that they
try to push through in order to please this or that constiuency
or to raise x dollars for campaigns.
\_ I am not sure. I think DiFi isn't pleasing anyone. I think
she really believes in this stuff. -- ilyas
\_ ilyas, you may possibly be the biggest dipshit in the universe
\_ but the stars might be bigger dipshits
\_ The scary looking assault-rifle guns are easier to use and
are designed to have a higher rate of fire with magazines etc.,
making them more deadly. They may be equipped or modified to
have things like silencers, folding stocks, large mags, etc.
Barrel grips allow rapid fire without burning your hand, and
facilitate shooting from the hip. The stocks make it easier
to conceal. The idea is that they want to ban "assault weapons"
and full vs. semi auto is not the only factor there.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=awb
\_ Yes, banned weapons tend to be easier to use. My question is,
why ban weapons that are easy to use? What favorable effect are
we looking for here? The criminals will not have easy to use
guns anymore? Do you really think ergonomics have any
effect on crime rates? Also, as I pointed out before, a
higher rate of fire does not imply deadliness, in fact it's
usually the reverse. -- ilyas
\_ The poster above gave you a URL. I suggest reading it.
\_ I am very familiar with http://bradycampaign.org. Favorite line:
"So there is a good reason why these features on
high-powered weapons should frighten the public."
Go get that soccer mommy vote! Btw, what does
'high-powered' even means? Most assault rifles fire a
smaller calibre than most hunting rifles.
\_ A high ROF entails a higher rate of stray-bullet casualties.
\_ Do you realize that the net effect of a high ROF on
fatalities is negative?
People want to ban the weapons that are seen as favored by
criminals. This included sawed-off shotguns, fully-automatic
rifles as well as very cheap pistols. Whether these weapons
are better suited for criminal vs. legitimate use is subject
to debate of course, The fact remains that they are seen by
the public as primarily having criminal uses, which makes
people want to ban them.
\_ It makes _some people_ want to ban them, but not others.
I didn't realize laws in this country were subject to
majority rule directly. Shouldn't bans be based on
principle and sound data rather than opinion polls?
-- ilyas
\_ You made precisely the opposite argument with regard
to the death penalty.
\_ We live in a democracy, not a technocracy. Deal.
\_ One-shot deadliness isn't what concerns people so much.
It's the spectre of a skilled nut shooting at many people,
or people engaging in combat with law enforcement or gang
warfare. Sure there is also some psychological comfort
going on here. I'm not what you're looking for to defend
this though, I just looked this stuff up this morning.
I don't think it's right to say this is a clear republican
vs. democrat issue.
\_ I am not a republican, but I can't think of any republican
sponsored gun control measure I didn't agree with. The
democrats, on the other hand... -- ilyas
\_ A sensible argument might be to outlaw any gun that can penetrate
a typical Type IIIA police vest. But that would really drive the
pro-gun lobby insane, since they would argue, and it is a reasonable
point, that it gives too much control to a government police force
and is overly restrictive. Then again, you don't want to make
all such weapons legal, since this would put too much power in
civilian hands. So, liberals work the periphery, making
"obvious" assault weapons illegal. Taken in this context, the
current gun-control laws make sense as to how they arose, even
if the laws themselves don't make sense (why ban "scary looking"
guns when you get can a legal one that kills people better?
Obviously liberals would like to ban those too!) in a vacuum.
Also, keep in mind that a gun being semi-automatic or automatic
makes it kill people better, in that you can kill more people
faster, but you already knew that. -liberal
\_ A full auto gun can kill faster in some situations (crowded rooms
while in others a single shot is more effective (less recoil
drift). At any rate, are you in the business of reducing net
deaths per year? Why not legislate more dangerous things like
cars instead? -- ilyas
\_ wow I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for
a while but you are truly an idiot. cars may be dangerous
but they provide tangible economic benefit, guns
just rip large holes in people and increase our health
care costs.
\_ Economic benefits don't stop things like drug legislation
(legalized drugs would be a tax windfall). It's not about
that at all. Incidentally it shouldn't be 'our' healthcare
costs, it should be 'mine,' 'yours,' etc. If I pay for
my own doctor who are you to tell me whether I want a gun
or not. -- ilyas
\_ Are you kidding me? Liberals legislate on cars all the time.
\_ BAN SUV! RIDE BIKE! LEAVE GUNS ALONE! |
| 2004/9/7 [Reference/Military] UID:33398 Activity:very high |
9/7 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1256-2004Sep6.html "... more than 20 elite Russian commandos were killed in the day-long battle that began Friday, many of them accidentally shot in the back by civilian vigilantes who rushed to the school to fight for their children. The previously undisclosed death toll ... surpasses any in the history of the famed Alpha and Vympel special forces units." \_ i read that. i guess they weren't so elite. \_ I don't think it reflects on their elite-ness or the quality of their training when they take casualties from 'friendly forces' that weren't part of the unit (ie angry gun-toting civilians). \_ They probably weren't trained to exepect angry villagers to come in behind them. Imagine a siege of police around a hostage situation, do you think *they* expect civilians to start shooting into the whole mess? Now whoever was in charge of maintaining a perimeter is un-leet. \_ Or possibly they are making excuses for the unleetness of the troops and making shit up. These are the same people who lied about the terrorist demands and about how many hostages there were. Russian media makes ours look downright responsible. \_ The leet CTs blamed the police for not keeping the civilians back \_ I read one article saying that the elite force wasn't prepared for action when the explosion broke out, and they didn't even get to put on standard gear like bullet-proof vests when they were forced to join the fight. However, I read another article saying that the initial fighting only involved police and regular troops, and the elite force didn't join in until half an hour later which should have given them enough time. I don't know which one to believe. \_ Bulletproof vests need ceramic plates to stop AK-47 bullets. It's possible they didn't bother putting any in the back, if there were space there. Anyways, civilians shouldn't be shooting at any point. \_ Um.. by who's standard? NIJ ? .4 or .3? \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest \_ This is dated. Do more research, grasshopper. \_ What is your point, exactly? That there are bulletproof vests without plates that stop AK-47 bullets? |
| 2004/9/3 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33339 Activity:nil |
9/3 Man walks in Denver with Rocket Launcher:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3703268/detail.html
\_ Right to bear arms!
\_ Right to arm bears!
\_ The police TOOK them? Why didn't they just ask him to wrap
them up or something?
\_ This really winds me up. I mean, I'm all about banning assault
weapons, etc. but to take these relics is just plain abuse of
power. I hope he sues.
\_ Well, strictly speaking, they're probably still property of
the army, not that they'd miss them.
\_ While I can support the right to own fake/uselss versions of
extremely powerful weapons, do you honestly think they should
have let him walk around in public with them in plain sight?
\_ Of course not. He should be made to cover them up. Taking
them is an overreaction.
\_ Well, transporting them as he did may constitute a
crime. Taking them from him, may be an overreaction,
but it's hardly a travesty of justice. If he comes to
the police station with a proper means to transport them
and they don't want to charge him with recieving stolen
property, then I see no reason not to give them back.
\_ If they think he's guilty of a crime, they should
say so. They said they took them so as not to panic
the other citizens. Call it like it is, or don't do
it.
\_ Man walks in Denver with used, useless rocket launcher.
\_ disposable rocket launchers? Is it really better/cheaper?
\_ I doubt it's cheaper, but you do avoid the issue of cleaning
servicing and reloading in the field. Plus you are no longer
required to make different warheads conform to a standardized
launcher.
\_ I don't know, but it would probably really suck to have your
rocket launcher jam. |
| 2004/9/1 [Reference/Military] UID:33269 Activity:insanely high |
9/1 So the answer to the question that started all this is "yes, there are
gun nuts on the motd."
\_ what?! doesnt everyone have at least 3 pieces : one on you, one
for your car, and one for your home?
\_ All you need is one in your hands at all times. Then you won't
have to fumble around in your car or house when you really need
that gun to shoot somebody.
\_ one? one? liberal pinko fag.
\_ that wouldn't make you a gun nut. there was a nice little
discussion about it earlier this morning, but it was nuked
by a petulant gun nut.
\_ How about if you can tell every gun error made in the movies
and ID the pieces in a sec and you DO NOT play CS because
killing someone for fun isnt is as fun as if it were real.
\_ I can ID the pieces in movies pretty fast most of the time.
*looks down*. Of course half the time they aren't even
real production models, like they would glue something on
top of something else because it 'looks cool.'
I don't play CS because I think FPS games are boring and
lame and all the same really (except graphics get better
with time). The CS crowd is ... not a point in favor of
CS either. Also, comparing FPS games to shooting an
actual firearm is like comparing leisure suit larry to
sex. You are all sex nuts. -- ilyas
\_ ilyas got pwn3d! w00t!
\_ I'm not petulant. YOU'RE petulant!!!
\_ Just b/c someone wants the *RIGHT* to do something doesn't
mean that they necessarily want to exercise that *RIGHT*.
\_ No way. All pro-second amendment people are raging assholes
and psychotic and evil republicans who want to wield tripod
mounted machine guns on their hummers to clear traffic. None
would be someone like me who has never owned a gun but can
read the second amendment without putting a unique and wacky
interpretation on it. The anti-second amendment people should
try to legally change it through the constitutional processes
created for that purpose, not through activist courts. The
same goes for either party trying to invent other new rights
not in the constitution or remove ones that are clearly there.
\_ You just say that because you aren't forward
thinking enough. Everything that supports my glorious
vision is good, anything that impedes it is bad.
\_ Is it really that difficult for people to hold differing thoughts
in their brains? I respect the right of the average American to
own a gun, AND I think trigger locks, lengthy background checks,
and a ban on assault weapons is reasonable. Why does it have to be
either-or?
\_ We need to ban thoughts of mass destruction.
\_ Have to present a false dichotomy or they'll take my presciousss.
\_ Speaking of guns, kinda, what kind of guns do they use in the
Olympics? link:csua.org/u/8vi (Mainichi Daily News photo)
\_ They use 'racing guns' i.e. guns unreasonably optimized for
accuracy at the expense of everything else (aesthetics,
reliability, etc.) On a slightly unrelated note, I think it's
really lame that some sports (skiing, shooting, polevaulting)
don't standardize on equipment, which means richer country teams
come with a bigger advantage simply because they can afford state
of the art equipment. -- ilyas
\_ c.f. NASCAR which is essentially a race to see who has the
richest family to support a team.
\_ no, you're thinking of science fair.
\_ Communist!
\_ Why are you advocating an authority-based system of equipment
selection? Is it not best to let the free market decide the
best equipment?
\_ He wants athletes to be forced *at gunpoint* to use
Official Halliburton equipment! -meyers
\_ Is that one-handed thing part of the rules? Stuff for normal
guns I've seen always recommend a two-hand grip.
\_ yermom prefers the two-hand grip
\_ The level of dumbassery in this thread is truly astounding. |
| 2004/9/1 [Reference/Military] UID:33266 Activity:high |
8/31 What's a gun nut? Someone who believes owning a handgun is
a good idea? -- ilyas
\_ you can own 20 guns and not be a gun nut. you can hunt
and target shoot and not be a gun nut. You can have a
gun you carry at all times for protection and not be a
gun nut. A gun nut is someone who *believes* in
gun ownership as some sort of philosophical position,
not just because they want to kill deer, protect
themselves or practice their eye-hand coordination.
That's a gun nut.
\_ Oh man, I disagree with that. You can *believe*,
as a philosophical position, that gun ownership is a
right. It represents a freedom in this country
-- one right amongst many. The notion that believing
in something as a philosophical position makes you a
'nut' is absurd and belittling to anyone with an
education. While there clearly *is* a line that
differentiates a person exercising a constitutionally
given right and someone that needs clinical help, your
vague definition clearly falls short of the mark. -POC
\_ I think the PP was perhaps a bit harsh in his
definition, but I'd define a gun nut as someone who
values owning a gun in a way that goes beyond any
practical or legal uses for them. People who believe
owning a gun makes them superior in some vague
Hobbesian or machismo sense would also fall into
this category.
\_ What about people who collect guns for aesthetic
or historical reasons, like people might collect
swords or paintings? -- ilyas
\_ What does POC stand for?
\_ Police Officer Candidate
\_ Wow, nicely summed up.
\_ As long as you don't think about it, yeah.
\_ I don't understand this summary. Are the asterisks
somehow significant? I believe in life, liberty, etc.
Does that make me a life nut or a liberty nut? Of course
I believe in all the rights I think I have. What you
are saying is coming across as 'anyone who tries to
defend a position I don't agree with is a nut.' Well,
that's great, we found the nut in the conversation, and
it ain't me. Or maybe you just object to people trying
to come up with principled justifications for what
they believe in, and rather the world was just a giant
meaningless compromise between competing interest
groups. That's not nutty, that's sad and depressing.
-- ilyas
\_ alan keyes is a "gun nut"
\_ It's alarming that to some, adopting the founder's
beliefs on the possession of guns justifies
categorization as a 'nut'. Tyranny is on the horizon, and
inside every leftist is a tyrant. |
| 2004/8/31 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Reference/Military] UID:33260 Activity:very high |
8/31 http://planetmayhem.org/glossary#91 Aimbot, autoshoot, wallhack, all here. Useful if you play games. \_ A non-trivial intersection between motd posters and the CS crowd would make all too much sense... with all of them 'w00t' and 'omg you got pwned' crap I keep seeing here. -- ilyas 'w00t' and 'omg you got pwned' things I keep seeing here. -- ilyas \_ Translation: ilyas is talking down 2 all u l00z3rS!!1! \_ n00b \_ Yeah, I hear there are a few gun nuts on motd. \_ What's a gun nut? Someone who believes owning a handgun is a good idea? -- ilyas \_ you can own 20 guns and not be a gun nut. you can hunt and target shoot and not be a gun nut. You can have a gun you carry at all times for protection and not be a gun nut. A gun nut is someone who *believes* in gun ownership as some sort of philosophical position, not just because they want to kill deer, protect themselves or practice their eye-hand coordination. That's a gun nut. \_ Wow, nicely summed up. \_ I don't understand this summary. Are the asterisks somehow significant? I believe in life, liberty, etc. Does that make me a life nut or a liberty nut? Of course I believe in all the rights I think I have. What you are saying is coming across as 'anyone who tries to defend a position I don't agree with is a nut.' Well, that's great, we found the nut in the conversation, and it ain't me. Or maybe you just object to people trying to come up with principled justifications for what they believe in, and rather the world was just a giant meaningless compromise between competing interest groups. That's not nutty, that's sad and depressing. -- ilyas \_ alan keyes is a "gun nut" \_ Anyone who uses cheats for an online game doesn't deserve to live. \_ "CAMELOT!" "It's only a model..." "Shh!" |
| 2004/8/30 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33222 Activity:very high |
8/30 Bush on terror war: "I don't think you can win it."
Perpetual war! Yay!
http://csua.org/u/8tl (AP via New York Daily News)
\_ Much like the War on Drugs and the currently unfashionable War on
Poverty.
\_ Ah yes, the War on Drugs. And what a successful war it has been,
too!
\_ Unfortunately Bush is doing as well on the war on terror as I am
doing on the war on stupidity...
\_ How about The War on Phonics?
\_ They've misunderestimated me. |
| 2004/8/25-26 [Reference/Military, ERROR, uid:33141, category id '18005#1.49174' has no name! , ] UID:33141 Activity:low |
8/25 This just struck me as hilarious. Of Max Cleland: "I tried to
accept that letter and he [Cleland] would not give it to me. He
would not face me. He kept rolling away from me. He's quite
mobile."
\_ URL?
\_ So is it true the Cleland blew himself up with his own grenade and
didn't take any enemy fire when he got the injuries that led to his
triple-amputation?
\_ Not a clue, though that would be hilarious too.
\_ Triple amputees sure are hilarious, yessirree.
\_ Yep, a scene out of your best B-comedy. I can see the
hand of the Farrelly brothers.
\_ Ah, apparently it was another soldier who dropped it, though
Cleland thought it was his own grenade for many years:
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/local/7218941.htm
\_ Wasn't Bobdole also injured by his own weapon?
\_ Bobdole doesn't like your tone of voice.
\_ According to http://bobdole.org, his upper right back and right
arm wounds were caused by enemy machine gun fire.
\_ Bobdole cannot believe that Bobdole will only be
remembered for schilling Viagra.
\- get off Bob Dole's motd. |
| 2004/8/24 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Reference/Military] UID:33092 Activity:high |
8/24 Not to start another Swiftboat Troll, but did Kerry Volunteer for
the Navy, or the Naval Reserves?
\_ For the navy, as an enlisted.
\_ Actually, his dad used his influence to get him into the
Massachusets naval reserves, where he failed the exam to be a
naval aviator, but was allowed to fly jets over Andover
Mass during the war instead of fight because of his dad's
influence. This isn't *so* bad, but swiftboat troll is right
to point out that it's pretty wrong that he then used his
dad's influence once again to leave early to go to stanford
Business school.
\_ No, actually he wrote himself up for a few purple hearts so he
\_ Wrong.
\_ /sbin/modprobe sarcasm_detector
could leave early and then go back and tell the world he and
his Band of Brothers(c) committed rapes, civilian murders, cut
off civilian body parts and were generally evil/bad/republican
people/war criminals so the war should end.
\_ Actually, in his testimony he said this was what 100+ other
veterans disclosed at the Winter Soldier investigation.
\_ Keep your filthy stinking facts away from the swift boat
troll, please.
\_ Navy |
| 2004/8/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:32758 Activity:insanely high |
8/7 Anyone know this guy?
http://csua.org/u/8i4
\_ Hopefully no one will know this loser.
\_Loser or not, I think it's rather instructive on how
terrorism works. Terrorism would've never worked before
there was a popular press and technology has made
terrorism that much more effective as a propoganda tool.
Now anybody with a webcam can become a jihadist.
\_ it worked in spain quite recently.
\_ terrorism never worked? Terrorism has been around
for centries. check out the word "assassin" and find out
where is that word from.
\_ Using terror as a weapon works quite well. Genghis Khan and
his ilk noticed this a long time ago. Back in the old days
a lot of battle armor designs were meant to intimidate the
opponents. The Picts fought naked as an intimidation
measure, the Mongols made piles of human heads, etc. etc.
Modern 'terrorism' is a nasty and irrationally collectivist
version of the old warriorship idea that attacking the mind
is more effective than attacking the body. ('Irrationally
collectivist' because modern terrorists attack societies as
a whole, and that is counterproductive in settings other than
total war). -- ilyas
\_ it worked in spain quite recently.
\- well ignorning the first law of internet warfare,
"never get into an argument with someone in grad
school; they have more free time than you" ...
i dont see the relevance of most of your historical
examples. terrorism isnt just using psychological
intimidation techniques. i'd suggest it is a
combination of attacking civilian morale and
avoiding direct military confrontation. when the
roman army in 146 bc "salted the earth" at carthage
and sold off much of the population of corinth into
slavery, these flowed from direct military conflicts.
when a group avoid *direct* military conflict but
engages in indirect fighting, that is better
described as guerilla warfare than terrorism.
spain bombing: terrorism, clearly. i dont think
it's productive to call the viking raiders or
g. khan terrorists. they were more looters
and thugs. if an IRA "terrorist" assassinated a
british military person, that is probably guerilla
warfare. if he put a bomb in the london underground,
that is terrorism. if he shoots a bar owner in
belfast for serving british troops, that's murder.
--psb
\_ My thesis is 'terrorism is an old phenomenon.' It
still holds if we take your definition. It's as
old as fighting empires, where direct military
confrontation is infeasible. -- ilyas
confrontation is infeasible. Also, I think there
is a definite connection between 'terrorism' and
'looters and thugs.' Also, I am having a hard time
'looters and thugs.' Also, I am having a hard time
seeing the line you see between guerilla warfare
and terrorism, especially if the former targets
civilians (and it often does). Is terrorism just
'guerilla warfare with bombs?' -- ilyas
\- no, it has to do with target selection.
shoot/snipe and run [vietcong, american
revolutionaries etc] is guerella tactics
when aiming at military-related targets.
random/civilian targetting for a political
goal is closer to terrorism. i suppose there
has to be some element or organization and
some threashold goal ... i wouldnt call the
unabomber or the washington sniper pair
terrorists. maybe the weather underground,
but they were pretty stupid and incompetent.
\_ The Czars and their cossacks were very capable terrorists.
\_ As an aside, I heard a great story about one of Genghis Khan's
battle tactics. His army surrounded a city and said that if
the citizens delivered 10,000 cats to the army along with some
gold and other treasure, they would move on and not attack. The
citizens complied. Genghis Khan then had his army tie rags to
the tails of the cats, light them on fire and release the cats.
The cats fled back to their homes in the city and the entire
city started to burn. In the ensuing chaos, Khan's army easily
conquered the city.
\- there are lots of stories like this. see e.g.
~psb/MOTD/SultanTughlak. However if you think this
or the tzarist repression is terrorism, you misuse/
misunderstand the word. tyranny != terrorism. --psb
\_ KAAAAAAAAAAHN!!!
\_ Now that's psych-warfare. |
| 2004/8/2 [Reference/Military] UID:32627 Activity:very high |
8/2 Trying to find a MPG of the North Hollywood Shootout. Google doesn't
help. Thanks.
\_ http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html ? |
| 2004/8/2 [Science/Electric, Reference/Military] UID:32626 Activity:insanely high |
8/3 Five finger discount in the 21st century:
http://tinyurl.com/5vjaf
\_ When the government puts the RFID chip in the back of *your*
neck, you'll be glad some punk kid shoplifters figured out how
to nuke the bastard.
\_ How is the gov. going to get a RFID chip in my neck?
\_ MEN WITH GUNS!
\_ against citizens w/ bigger and better guns
\_ http://saf.org
\_ This is why ordinary folk need guns (preferably
a couple of desert eagles, some mp-5's, one
or two p90's, and some rpgs) |
| 2004/7/26 [Reference/Military] UID:32480 Activity:kinda low |
7/26 This is a followup to http://csua.org/u/8bm thanks to everyone who replied. Anyways, we had a really good time in Marin Headlands. It was surprisingly not crowded at all like some other places and the weather was perfect (not too hot & the humidity perfect). In addition it was really close to Sausalito where we hung out. I'd say the best part was going up to Battery 129 overlooking Golden Gate Bridge and the city, where it looked like it was sitting on the cloud. The scenery was breathtaking and unforgettable. The next best thing was going into the old artillery/battery/bunker/defensive buildings. They looked *exactly* like the ones I saw in Battlefield 1942/Medal of Honor, except without the guns. I never realized how massize those naval artillery guns were and how heavy the shells were (2100 pounds each!!!) until I went into one of those places. It was an awsome experience. Again thanks motd hikers! \_ Is this the battery the one where to reach it, you go under the freeway and up the hill after crossing GGB? |
| 2004/7/22 [Reference/Military] UID:32420 Activity:insanely high |
7/22 Only in California. (Man who shot burglar with burglar's own gun
arrested in SF)
http://csua.org/u/8aa
\_ Yeah, see, there's this idea that killing or assaulting someone
that isn't a threat to you is a crime in this country. It's not
a very complicated idea, kiddo.
\_ Someone trying to rob you with a loaded gun isn't a thread to
you?
\_ Reed the article again. The robber dropped their gun and was
running away. The 'victim' picked up the guy's gun and shot
him in the back. It's not self-defence at that point because
an unarmed robber running away is a threat only to your
honor, not your safety.
\_ Shot him in the back as he was fleeing.
\_ only cuz it's against the law, i wouldn't shoot him.
but it would be good prevention for further attacks if
he did get shot outside, less blood on floor in house
\_ and the burglar will probably be able to sue the man.
\_ that would ironic. The burglar may legally get the shooter's
\_ that would be ironic. The burglar may legally get the shooter's
house.
\_ So if a burglar attempts to break into my house but notices I'm
home, should I be allowed to gun him down with my highpowered
rifle as he runs down the street? If you try to kill someone
who's no longer a threat to you and is unarmed, it seems pretty
cowardly. The burglar got what he deserved but this kind of thing
shouldn't be legal.
\_ You should be allowed to shoot him. Repeatedly.
\_ Remember, if you shoot him in the nuts it's not attempted
murder.
\_ No, it's Mayhem or Aggravated Mayhem which has penalties
comparable to that of murder.
\_ The guy was a dumbass. As my friends from the South say, if someone
breaks into your house and you are forced to shoot (meaning, he
won't leave), you keep shooting until he stops moving, THEN call
the police.
\_ If he's not actually a threat (he's just sitting on your couch,
or standing in your living room), it would be homicide if you
killed him, or possibly battery. Simple idea: no threat, no
right to lethal force.
\_ Stops moving = immobilized or dead?
\_ all foreign troops in Iraq are illegally there, and should
be considered burglars, and hence shot on sight.
\_ They are not being shot, but they're being killed (like car
bombs, beheaded, etc) slowly. |
| 2004/7/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:32366 Activity:insanely high |
7/19 IAF (Indian Air Force)'s SU30 kicked USAF's F15C's arse in combat
exercise in India:
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-iaf-usaf-su30-f15-article01.html
\_ I thought the point with an F-15 is you point the missiles from
well out of visual range and run away at high speed while the
tracking computer takes care of the rest.
\_ time to offshore the air force. W00t!
\_ dude, India has an airforce? I mean, most of the Indians I know
are so myopic that they can barely drive a car and all...
\_ Cope India '04 is old news.
\_ This is not surprising. The F-15 took to the air in 1972, the C
variant in 1979. The Su-27, on which the Su-30 is based, took to
air along with the MiG-29 in the mid-80's, while the Su-30 itself
first flew in 1989. The F-15 in all variants is widely held to be
at best equal if not inferior to the Su-30, MiG-29 and other more
modern fighters. The F-15 is less maneuverable for engagement
inside visual range and also loses BVR where the Su-30 can track
a target and launch a missle well before the F-15. --Jon
\_ did the USAF outsource their pilots? Seriously, there were
reports on the unpatriotic public tv stations about russian pilot
superiority as well. US pilots don't train that much fighting the
old-fashioned "dog fights". It costs too much. USAF depends on
firing missiles from far away to kill planes. the russian planes
were very good as well. they don't need to be pampered like
US planes.
\_ I thought I saw a statistic somewhere that BVR kills only
account for a tiny fraction of total US air-to-air victories.
In most cases, you still need to come head-to-head and
visually identify your adversary.
\_ During Vietnam, the Sparrow radar guided missle had less
than a 10% kill rate. As the Grumman F-4 II did not have
a cannon until very late in Vietnam, well, do the math.
Pilots in the F-4 were getting 2 MiG shot down for every
F-4 lost to enemy fire.
\_ I thought F-4s were getting their butts kicked by the
MiGs until the Navy instituted Top Gun school. Also,
they had short-range missles at their disposal, not
just Sparrows.
\_ ...Most of which was ground fire. -John
\_ The usual rule has been that US planes have better avionics,
such as radio/radar/location/mapping/etc compared to Soviet
and other fighters of similar range, but lose to the same
fighters inside visual range due to lack of maneuverability
and lack of pilot training on ACM. Example, the Soviet
air force had vectored thrust in 1990 -- USAF is just getting
around to using it now.
\_ The F-15C is the Air Force's "Best Fighter?" By what metric?
Sheesh.
\_ By the metric of "planes actually in service". F-22 is not
scheduled to have an operational squadron till 2005. F-35 is
even farther away. F-16 vs F-15 could be interesting. ditto
for F-14 and F-18. But, given improvements in avionics, and
its single task focus, the -C (and the two seater -D) are
the USAF's primary assets for air superiority.
\_ Yeah, F-15C is the designated air-superiority plane. If you
look at the history of the F-16 versus F-15 it's interesting.
The F-16 does seem to be basically superior except that it
can't match the speed or ceiling of F-15 for interceptions.
It seems like in theory the F-16 could be better if it had the
air-to-air focus of USAF. It's also a lot cheaper.
\_ some other numbers:
thrust/wt at max takeoff weight: F-15: .73, F-16: .77
Wingloading (lb/ft^2): F-15: 112, F-16: 85
The F-15 and F-16 are at their base excellent platforms
for air superiority, just under different conditions.
The F-15 was designed as an all-weather day/night fighter.
The F-16 as a day fighter which, to appease certain groups
within the USAF, also got pushed into air-ground strike
roles. The F-16 wins over the F-15 in maneuverability,
smaller RCS, price, and acceleration. The F-15 wins in
top speed, max altitude, range/combat persistence, rate
of climb, and combat payload. The F-16 also pioneered
fly-by-wire, HOTAS, radar/HUD integration, and negative
stability. It was in many ways a guinea pig for new
technologies, whereas the F-15 was more traditional.
F-15 pilots with the one exception of F-15E pilots
spend all of their time doing air-air scenario training
whereas F-16 pilots all split their flight training
between air-air, air-ground. The F-15 is an interceptor,
the big gun. The F-16 is the inclose knife fighter.
\_ I'm not an expert on airplanes. What exactly does the
Wingloading number mean? Is it plane weight divided by
wing area? I'm guessing the plane with the lower number
would have greater ability to climb at a given airspeed
but singe a larger wing means more drag, which plane has
better climbing ability when they don't have excess
speed to bleed off?
\_ I thought there were several models of F15 after the -C?
\_ The F-15D is the two seater version of the -C.
The F-15E Strike Eagle is the ground attack/fighter
multi-role compromise. It does well, but due to the -15's
optimization as a highly maneuverable air surperiority
fighter, it's somewhat hard to control at low altitude
highspeed due to turbulence in those conditions.
There are also export version of the -15 to countries
like Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia.
highspeed due to turbulence in those conditions. This
is also a problem with the F-16 in certain a-g strike
roles, again at low-altitude. There are also export
version of the F-15 to countries like Japan, Israel and
Saudi Arabia.
\_ The article says that the USAF faced numerical disadvantage in
the exercises. I don't think there's a single nation that can
pose that problem in real combat. As always, numerical
superiority helps a lot. There won't be much dogfighting
against F117s supported by AWACs.
\_ Various people on former Soviet miliary:
Quantity has a certain quality all its own.
\_ Dean Ing, "Systemic Shock", Ace books, 1981. Look up
"Wall of Lenin". -John
\_ BTW Indians just signed a contract to buy Isreali AWACS systems
mounted on russian transport planes. China is also close to
signing a deal for buying Russian AWACS systems (which are
supposedly inferior to Israeli ones but US objected to the
Phacon sale to China).
\_ The Israeli should name it Phalcon instead of Phacon.
Sounds nicer.
\_ Its common knowledge that USAF sandbags these demos. It
really means very little.
\_ What do you mean by "sandbags?" I've never heard that term
before.
\_ next guy who fires on our planes gets shelled with something larger
\_ Intentionally appearing weaker than you really are. I
think the term comes from poker:
http://www.fact-index.com/s/sa/sandbagging__poker_.html
\_ I think it comes from horse racing, where you would
tie bags of sand to your horse in trials to make
it appear slower. \_ corrected typo
\_ Holy nerdfest Batman! Where did all the armchair generals come from?
\_ do you live in Little India, errr, I mean, Sunnyvale?
\_ I love how this troll was brought back sans verbal diarrea that
originally followed it.
\_ the wonders of the magic motd archive.
\_ What is a wonder is that someone is deeply disturbed enough
to invest that much energy in the motd. This means you,
kchang.
\_ You shouldn't be so hard on kchang. His thing, with
some development, could have more useful applications
than the motd. Web-based version control, for example.
-- ilyas
\_ why dont you tell us about the stars you
frigging kchang sympathizer?
\_ Uh, w00t?
\_ Do you know each other?
\_ We never met. We exchanged a few emails. -- ilyas
\_ I am surprised that their saying that an upgraded Mig-21 could be
a formidable adversary for F-15c. Can an upgrade program really
improve that much the old vintage piece of junk that Mig-21 is?
If yes, the engineers at Mig had done a pretty darn good job.
\_ first of all, Mig 21 was not a junk at first place. Secondly,
I think when they talk about "upgrade," they are really talking
about builing a new plane based upon an old design, no? |
| 2004/7/16-18 [Reference/Military] UID:32328 Activity:very high |
7/16 I have a question for the motd gun enthusiasts. Do you find the
account of Lee Harvey Oswald's shooting skills with that rifle
from the Warren Report to be plausible?
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p39
scroll down to "Oswald's rifle capability."
\_ According to Full Metal Jacket, he learned it in the Marines.
\_ I don't think anyone debates that he learned to shoot in the
Marines. The question is whether or not that particular
shot is possible with that particular rifle, even for a
good marksman. In the Warren report, several experts testify
that it is, but some people claim that is not true. I want to
hear what the motd shooters think.
\_ Of course it's possible. Any shot is possible. It's
possible to purposely hit someone at 10,000 yards in a
crosswind, repeatedly. The odds are against it, but why
not? A gun just makes a bullet go real fast in a wide
arc, and maybe someone in the world has a form of
autism that lets him figure out exactly what all the
wind, amount of propellant, solar rays, whatever, will make
the bullet do. The "he couldn't have made those shots,
it's impossible" argument is stupid. -John
\_ As a hunter and military vet, I think it would be easy for me
to hit a slowly moving target in the neck at 100 yds. I don't
know what the effect of being elevated like that would be, but
on a level surface, I am sure I could make that shot.
\_ that's the sort of answer i was looking for. thanks.s
\_ You are welcome. The balllistics on that bullet after
hitting the target are kind of screwy though. It supposedly
hit Kennedy in the neck, came out his shoulder, hit that
Texas Governor in the head and then came back and hit
Kennedy again, right? I am not saying that is not
possible, but it seems pretty unlikely to me.
\_ My grandfather was shot in the neck by a crazy man during
a court case in the 1950s. The bullet went in through his
carotid artery (interesting side note, he was one of the
first recipients of an artificial artery) and zig-zagged,
missing his spine, and came out at some goofy spot. Once
a bullet hits stuff, it can do weird things. -John
\_ yeah, I don't know much about the magic bullet thing,
but I'm curious. Obviously if the Oliver Stone version
is based on accurate ballistics, there's a seroius problem
in the warren report, but I would want to know exactly
what the state of the art for ballistics was in 1963 to
make that judgement.
\_ I remembered the details wrong. These guys seem to
think it is possible:
http://www.fact-index.com/m/ma/magic_bullet_theory.html
\_ The Republicans killed JFK!!!
\_ http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/MossadAndTheAssassination.htm
\_ I read a Marine Sniper training manual a few years ago, and
the author (a decorated sniper) made a pretty convincing
argument that it was quite possible for one man to pull off.
And in fact, offered some pretty good explanations for things
like why people heard shots from another direction.
\_ A guy modeled the JFK assassination to scale on a 3D physics
modelling program and was able to reproduce the shot. It was
on The Discovery channel or similar. Very convincing. -ax
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/WorldNewsTonight/jfk_beyond_conspiracy-1.html
http://tinyurl.com/6lokp (abcnews.go.com)
\_ What does any of this have to do with the mafia shooting him over
Marilyn Monroe?
\_ obItWasTheCIAInRetaliationForBayOfPigs
\_ Oswald was a fag. -Michael McManus |
| 2004/7/15-16 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Law/Court, Reference/Military] UID:32304 Activity:low |
7/15 Help, I just bought an 8 year old Cherokee Archer and now AOPA
wouldn't stop spamming me (snail mail and email) unless I joined their
organization. I called them up to get it stopped but it's not
working. What should I do?
\_ Autoforward all their email back to one of their own addresses
with a rewritten header telling them to stop sending this stuff to
you. Whether or not they stop won't matter since you won't see the
email. Snail mail you burn. It's free firewood.
\_ Send a certified letter demanding they cease all postal and email
contact or you will sue for harassment.
\_ Does that work? Under what conditions can you sue for harassment
based on annoying letter and email spam? How hard is it to
actually win something like this?
\_ While it would be a PITA to sue them, thet'd probably take the
hint.
\_ That's a $140K airplane. How often do you use it to justify the
cost?
\_ And that's any of your business because...? Maybe one flight
was enough to justify it to him. There IS a wider world outside
your own head, you know.
\_ I am just curious. Maybe *I* want to buy a plane, too.
It's none of your business to ask why I want to know.
\_ *shrug* fair enough.
\_ And do you have a Middle Eastern last name? Get the DHS on this
one stat!
\_ EIGHT year old plane costs $140K? How about a new one?
\_ $205K + options, which can reach $235K+
\_ Options? Can you get dubs on an airplane? Preferably with
spinners? How about custom exhaust?
\_ Don't forget random Azn characters. Each one
adds hp +5.
\_ How much for an NO2 sticker?
\_ And a clear case with neon lights?! I want
plane m0dz! |
| 2004/7/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:32290 Activity:very high |
7/14 F-16 Footage over fallujah
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1171674/posts
\_ How do we know it's terrorists rather than innocent people who
got blown into tiny bits of carbon?
\_ fallujah is a city of terrorists and people sheltering
terrorists. Who's innocent there?
\_ Sheltering terrorists? If you knew a bunch of very violent
people, can you honestly tell me you'd be brave (or foolhardy)
enough to turn them in to the cops, knowing that their friends
could come slit your throat in the night? It must be nice
living in your bubble where moral superiority does not pose
a danger to your personal safety.
\_ I think it's also kind of Darwinian, if you're still
in Fallujah after it's full of terrorists, and the
Marines are itching to raze it to the ground....
\_ Couldn't you say the same thing about the whole Iraq?
Are we offering a place to go?
\_ As if you'd post a list on your front door of all the
people you turned in? Arabs already learned with Arafat's
PLO to do these things quietly or they'll get labelled as
traitors and shot in the street.
\_ Because we only use smart bombs
\_ You could apply to be sent there as neutral observer of the UN.
\_ Right, and killing people is normal in war. But are we
supposed to applaud and cheer the vaporization of 20-40
people just like those who cheered the killing of just
a few westerners? I know you haven't talked about
cheering, but since the op is linking it through the
Freepubic rather than the original url, I suppose he wants
us to applaud and cheer like those freepers. Where is
our moral superiority? Are you a moral relativist?
\_ That's weird. Can they not hear the jets/missiles approaching?
It looks like these guys are just calmly wandering around.
\_ When you drop your precision-guided munition from 30,000 feet,
maybe they didn't hear you.
\_ No. They can't. That's what flying faster than the speed of
sound is all about.
\_ So if you fly faster than the speed of sound you make less
noise? Or your bomb got there faster than the sound of
your plane reached them?
\_ If you fly faster than the speed of sound, nobody will hear
your plane until after you've passed. If a bomb falls
faster than the speed of sound, nobody will hear it coming
until after it lands. In WWII, the V2 rockets could not
be heard approaching, which made them such a good
psychological weapon; in the middle of the night your house
could just explode. Also, with rifle bullets, the bullet
you won't hear coming is the one that hits you.
\_ If you're orbiting the target, it's more likely for
your sound to get there, than if you bomb straight in,
right?
\_ It's not that hard. If you're flying supersonic,
people can't hear you until after you've passed.
If you're flying circles over the target, then they
can probably hear you, but that might not provide any
good warning if they're always hearing planes flying
overhead. |
| 2004/7/14-15 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Computer] UID:32279 Activity:kinda low |
7/14 A farewell to the Marine Corps, Colonel Wayne Shaw, USMC, Quantico,
Virginia
http://www.usna63.org/tradition/history/Farewell_Shaw.html
\_ Great find. I love his 10 questions. |
| 2004/7/14 [Reference/Military] UID:32273 Activity:nil |
7/14 http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10134001%5E13762,00.html I cast magic missle at the overweight security guard! |
| 2004/6/18 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30887 Activity:moderate 72%like:30797 |
6/18 New army combat uniform:
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=6042 |
| 2004/6/17 [Reference/Military] UID:30860 Activity:very high |
6/17 Attn: Geordan. Your laser gun is almost ready.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996014
\_ You know what scares the hell out of me? Hand-gun sized stunners
in the hands of serial killers, rapists, and the generally violent.
\_ You know what scares the hell out of me? Hand-gun sized hand guns,
knives, clubs, 2x4s with nails in them, and other sharp or blunt
heavy objects in the hands of serial killers, rapists, and the
generally violent.
\_ You know what scares the hell out of me? Serial killers, rapists,
and the generally violent. Outlaw violence!
\_ When violence is outlawed, only outlaws will be violent.
\_ We have nothing to fear but fear itself. And the generally
violent. |
| 2004/6/5 [Reference/Military] UID:30630 Activity:nil 55%like:30640 |
6/5 Live Free Or Die: How Many More Carl Dregas?
and more on the bull dozer guy in Co.
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1147993/posts?page=66#66 |
| 2004/6/3-4 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Reference/Military] UID:30586 Activity:very high |
6/3 How many Panzers can the M1 Abram take out? How many ME109s can the
F22 raptor take out? Just want to see how much we have advanced in
the past 60 years...
\_ F22 will take out as many as it is possible to take out
with the amount of missiles it can carry, then go back to
its home base unharmed, refuel, rearm, repeat.. For that
matter, an F16 would probably do the same, and any older
generation fighter armed with missiles and radars.
\_ Actually, I've only heard one story of a prop plane
successfully taking out at jet after WWII. Something about
a patrol plane in 'nam where he strapped a missle to his
landing gear, and used it to shoot down a MiG that had been
harrassing him.
\_ M1a3 vs panzers: all of them until it runs out of shells. The
panzer can't penetrate the M1's hull at any reasonable range.
F22 vs ME109: all of them until the F22 runs out of ammo. The
ME109 can't see it, can't catch it, can't target it, and will go
down in flames while the F22 is still miles away.
\_ Furthermore, on the tank front, a lot of people don't
realize that WWII tanks couldn't shoot with any accuracy
while moving, and would have a pretty hard time hitting a
moving target. An M1a3, on the other hand, can hit a rat
from a mile away while going 60mph. So even if the pazers
got close enough, they'd still be toast.
\_ This poster is just right. Recall the two wars in Iraq.
They conclusively demonstrated that the side with the
better weapons, not the side with more, will win in open
warfare. Sadly, our gov't is buying more weapons rather
than investing in next-generation better weapons. Consider
a nation with effective battlefield lasers. Aircraft will
suddenly have to fly below the horizon or they'll be shot
down at the speed of light. Same with missiles. Shells.
Would you rather it be us with the lasers first, or China?
Write your congressperson.
\_ The US Navy is investing heavily in laser platforms for ships.
China has a long way to go to catch up to the US, I would say
20 years would be enough if the US stood still. America
learned the "R&D >>> production" lesson in WWII, when the
Tigers were pulling the "kill all Shermans until out of ammo"
trick on the Americans. The flip side of the coin is the
Russians, who lost 3 tanks for every 2 german tanks, but
were outproducing the Germans 10 to 1. -- ilyas
\_ The U.S. wants anti-cruise-missile tech. Whether it's laser
or not, we don't care, as long as it works. Heck, if we
could zap Osama from a Predator, I'm sure the military
guys would love that too.
\_ Training and professionalism also played a critical role.
T-72s and Mig-29s that Iraq possessed were considered to
be quiet formidable tanks and fighter planes respectively
when operated by well-trained crews (granted, most of Iraqi
weapons were much older than that). I read somewhere that
during the Iran-Iraq war the troops on both sides did no make
an effective use of the technology that they posessed. For
example, the Iraqis didn't use the advanced sights/targeting
on their Soviet-made tanks, reducing their effectiveness to
WWII era. Also, both sides tended to hole up their tanks and
use them as individual artilery pieces.
\_ Why do I feel like the Command & Conquer / Rise of Nations /
Empire Earth forum has suddenly moved here?
\_ Paradox forums >> all. Those guys know their history. -- ilyas
\_ Tank vs tank is measure of RHA. |
| 11/23 |