Reference Military - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Reference:Military:
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2013/3/15-5/10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54628 Activity:nil
3/15    It's not the NRA that's crazy, it is everyone else:
2013/1/25-2/19 [Reference/Military] UID:54589 Activity:nil
1/25    "Cupertino Middle School on Lockdown Following Report of Man With Gun" (
        Thank you NRA, again.
        \_ You're stretching on blaming the NRA for this one.  A student
           reports a phoney gun threat, and it's the NRA's fault because...
           why, exactly?  They've fought efforts to ban pretend guns?  Help
           me out, here.
           \_ Good that it turns out to be false alarm.  The fact that it was
              made up wasn't known when I initially posted the URL two hours
              ago.  -- OP
2012/2/29-3/26 [Reference/Military] UID:54320 Activity:nil
2/29    "New Navy Railgun Tests Leading to Ship Superweapon by 2020"
        - Why are there fire and smoke when the bullet is propelled by EM
        - "The railgun could hit the same distant targets that Navy missiles
          strike today, he said."  Then what's the point of inventing this new
          \_ Railgun just shoots a projectile.  A missile is a complex
             mechanism with rockets, computers, fins, etc.  Obviously,
             just a dummy projectile is much cheaper.
          \_ you can shoot metal slugs for 1/100000 the cost of
             each missile!
             \_ I see.  Thanks to both.  -- OP
        - Which morons would shoot at their own proud insignia for target
          practice?  (See video at 0:40.)
          \_ USA USA USA!!! Go morans!
        \_ It's the aluminum casing reacting to the air.
        - "The railgun could hit the same distant targets that Navy missiles
          strike today, he said."  Then what's the point of inventing this new
          \_ Railgun just shoots a projectile.  A missile is a complex
             mechanism with rockets, computers, fins, etc.  Obviously,
             just a dummy projectile is much cheaper.
          \_ you can shoot metal slugs for 1/100000 the cost of
             each missile!
             \_ I see.  Thanks to both.  -- OP
          \_ missiles are expensive, cannons much cheaper.  However the
             chemistry of explosions limits muzzle velocity and range.  With
             railgun they can achive much higher muzzle velocities with
             relatively cheap projectiles.
        - Which morons would shoot at their own proud insignia for target
          practice?  (See video at 0:40.)
          \_ USA USA USA!!! Go morans!
2012/1/8-2/6 [Reference/Military] UID:54283 Activity:nil
1/8     "Amid tensions, U.S. Navy rescues Iranians from Somali pirates" (
        "... the rescue operation was carried out by a ship belonging to the
        very U.S. Navy aircraft carrier strike group that Iranian army
        officials had earlier boasted of evicting from Gulf waters.
        \_ "U.S. ship rescues Iranian fishermen - again"
2011/10/19-11/8 [Reference/Military] UID:54198 Activity:nil
10/19  "Clerk kills would-be robber who grabbed daughter"
       She must have been a sharpshooter or in the army or something.  Who
       would shoot a crook when he's holding your kid right next to him?
       \_ This must be /.  Didn't read TFA?  The kid was in the
          stroller and the thief grabbed the stroller, not the kid.
          Either way, good for her.  I imagine it was point blank range.
          \_ Hmm, a follow-up article with different details:
             She actually shot him first before he grabbed the stroller.  Still
             good for her.  -- OP
2011/4/29-7/13 [Recreation/Food, Reference/Military] UID:54099 Activity:nil
4/29    "NY inmate separates guards fighting over food"
        You read it right, and it's not a typo.
2011/1/30-2/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Military] UID:54020 Activity:nil
1/28    "China's CCTV news report was 'Top Gun' scene"
        'BEIJING (AFP) . China's state broadcaster is facing questions after
        Internet users spotted that footage in a report on air force
        manoeuvres in a national newscast was taken from the 1980s Hollywood
        film "Top Gun".'
        \_ Is McCain going to run again in 2012?
        \_ Another article with the actual CCTV footage and the Top Gun movie
           clip side-by-side: (
        \_ You're dangerous.
2010/9/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:53967 Activity:low
        Men armed with assault weapons barely cause a stir at Mineta
        San Jose International Airport
        How the hell does this happen without someone calling
        the cops?
        \_ Ha! I'm totally asking the guards at work about this tomorrow.
           -works at LLNL
2010/8/30-9/30 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Media] UID:53944 Activity:nil
8/30    Supersonic fighter jet that still flies for sale.  Only $175k.
        But it burns $500 of fuel per minute when going supersonic.
        \_ Stop telling me how to live you PC liberal.
2010/7/26-8/25 [Reference/Military] UID:53898 Activity:low
7/25    Friend of mine's thinking about joining the armed forces.
        He was thinking either marines or army.  I was going to say that
        marines are far more dangerous, but then I stopped and thought of
        the Three Block War vs. the Navy shelling the crap out of Iraq
        before the  marine had to storm it; is the notion reversed now?
        Does the army has a tougher job/more dangerous job than the marines
        (because occupying is no longer about occupying pro-western areas)?
        \_ well discuss why he wants to do join the armed forces.  If it is
           about getting 'a job' then a 'safer' branch might be for him. If
           he wants to go out and actually see combat action and shoot people
           either of those will do.
        \_ How old is he? Is he psychologically malleable enough for
           brainwashing? Finally, does he have a college degree? -Army Vet
           \_ He's 23, got a degree from san jose state.
              \_ Does he want to be an officer? Is he planning on just doing
                 one tour, or is he thinking about making it a career? In
                 general, I agree with military brat below, the Air Force
                 treats its people the best, though I personally would
                 way rather be in the field than cooped up in a ship.
                 way rather be in the field than cooped up on a ship.
                 If you just want to do a short tour of duty as an enlisted
                 man to check it
                 man to check it out, then the shortest tour of duty is probably
                 advised, this usually means Army.
                 \_ I thought if you had a degree they put you as an officer?
                    Or is that an urban legend..
                    \_ A degree is no guarantee of commission, in fact one of
                       my seargents had a BS and was trying to get sent to OCS.
                       \_ How scary was your tour? (I told him airforce btw)
                          \_ I was in the 82nd Airborne, so it was pretty
                             tough, but I got a lot out of it.
           \_ What's your take on this:
              It sounds like a total nightmare to me. :-(
              \_ It sounds like a good recognition of what the US Army should
                 have realized a long time ago: the need to better train their
                 small unit leaders in subjects beyond just small arms and
                 \_ How about we train our mility to fight in guerilla style?
                    It seems like no national militaries do that.  Is there a
                    \_ guerilla tactics don't accomplish our military goals.
                    \_ We did. a longtime ago.  Look up "frontier fighting"
                       in any history book in the 80s and 90s.  Doubt it
                       would be in any book now but yes, the US Armed forces
                       fought guerilla style wars against the British under
                       Mr. Founding Father Geo. Washington.  It was of course
                       Highly successful against troops that were taught at
                       Blenheim or Aughrim other conv. theatre in Europe.
                       \_ Oh how the wheel turns.
                       \_ This is a U.S. myth; it was only after we got
                          better at using rank and file tactics that we
                          started winning battles.  -tom
                    \_ Read up on "inflitration tactics" though this it not
                       strictly guerilla style. You can't really take and
                       hold territory that way.
        \_ My whole family is military: Army and Air Force. Tell him to
           join the Air Force. It's almost civil. Whatever you do, stay
           out of the Army. It's the definition of grunt and they treat
           you like it. I say this as a person with a Lieutenant Colonel
           in his family and a West Point grad Colonel step-relative.
           Marines isn't much better, but at least it is a small
           fraternity of men who serve with honor. If I were to join I'd
           choose Air Force and Navy in that order.
           \_ My dad was Navy for 35 years; started out as E-1 and finished
              as O-5; got sponsored for OCS and got his Bachelors/Masters
              while in. If your buddy bears grudges, can't let things go,
              and can't get goal-oriented, no branch of the service will
              advance him. If your buddy is looking for travel, training,
              and opportunity, go Navy, or, as above, Air Force.
              \_ Why do you say "bears grudges"? Why is a forgiving nature
                 important to career success in the military?
                 \_ Military life, like civilian life, has plenty of
                    jerks, both as coworkers and bosses. Being
                    constructive with your frustration is fine and will
                    generally be rewarded; rising to bait, mouthing off,
                    and letting the minutiae get to you, however, will
                    hold you back. In theory, if you study your material,
                    pass advancement-oriented tests, and do your time,
                    you will advance; in reality, if you get written up
                    for fighting or otherwise being immature, you will
                    not advance. Buddy of mine, whip-smart, did great on
                    the tests, impressed the Captain and XO with his
                    reliability, and was headed for promotion, but he
                    couldn't keep his temper or let go of small slights,
                    and he got written up. After five years of failing
                    to advance, he gave up and bowed out. That's all I
                    \_ Yeah, I got into a lot of conflict with people when
                       I was in, I can see how that would not work if you
                       wanted to make a career out of it.
2010/4/1-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53766 Activity:nil
        Pirates attacked a guided missile warship.  What on earth were they
        \_ "If we take *puff* over that huge *puuuuff* warship with the
            *puffffff* missiles we'll be able to *cough* take on anything
            and be really *puff cough* rich!"
            \_ :-)
2009/10/22-11/3 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Sports] UID:53462 Activity:nil
10/22   Warship bigger than football field sustaining 50mph for 4 hrs in
        rough sea:
2009/8/19-9/1 [Reference/Military] UID:53289 Activity:nil
8/18   Wow.
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2009/7/4-16 [Science/Space, Reference/Military] UID:53112 Activity:nil
7/4     Oxygen is presently showing "The Professional".   Next is "Top Gun"
        I wonder what is on Spike right now, maybe "beaches"?
        \_ the professional is all about female empowerment by some guy
           who doesn't want to put his dick into her, top gun is all for
           aging chixx who haven't gotten over their blonde surfer fixation.
           Go see Sunshine, it's better than anything Spike has shown recently
           or Moon.  Although of the two Sunshine is the better comedy.  Then
           again Moon has Fulcher.
           \_ I liked Moon; I found Sunshine boring.
           \_ isnt natalie portman 11 years old in The Professional? u r gross
              \_ "who doesN'T want to put his dick into her."
                 reading comprehenshun is fun!
2009/6/29-7/15 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53084 Activity:nil
6/29    Browser war usage percentage:
        \_ Why is Firefox 2.0 going up recently when 3.0 has already been
           released for a year?
2009/6/4-5 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53078 Activity:nil
6/4     "The Turf War Behind the Monster Jellyfish Crop Circle"
        How does someone craft a pattern with mowers (presumably) over a 600ft
        area with such great accuracy?
        \_ Crop circles are usually done by flattening the grain with boards.
        \_ GPS?
2009/5/26-6/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53046 Activity:low
5/26    "Photo of US soldier in pink boxers turns iconic"
        Not a single mention about wearing a red shirt in a battlefield screams
        "Shoot me!" and endangers one's comrades.  He should have covered it up
        or taken it off at the first opportunity.
        \_ And how much war experiance do you have?  Hint, playing Red Alert
           doesn't count.
           \_ Nor does watching "Star Trek".
        \_ Dood, medics have to wear red crosses on their arms.
           \_ Supposedly enemies shouldn't shoot the medics, so the red crosses
              scream "DON'T shoot me!"
              \_ Let me tell you, if I ever actually made it into combat,
                 the first thing I would have done is strip off that stupid
                 arm band. -former medic
                 \_ I heard that non-maimed army men get laid a lot because they
                    have many manly stories to tell and ladies love their strong
                    manly presence. Is this true? Is it?
                    \_ I don't know, but I got laid a lot in the co-ops. I don't
                       think it had anything to do with being ex-army, but
                       perhaps all that PT helped give me muscles.
                       \_ No, it's just that most women in the co-ops were
                          easy. I'd be afraid to sleep with most of them.
                 \_ Bill Cosby has a great routine on being a Corpsman in
                    Korea. First lesson: the North Koreans do not
                    Vietnam. First lesson: the North Vietnamese do not
                    recognize the Geneva Convention and so will actively
                    target Corpsmen. Cue a bunch of Corpsmen furiously
                    scrubbing the red cross off their helmets with Brillo
2009/4/26-28 [Reference/Military] UID:52908 Activity:nil
4/25    Another responsible gun owner
        \_ But if everyone else had guns it could have turned into a raging
           gun battle and that would have been kewl because we all know
           the good guys win those.
2009/4/5-13 [Reference/Military] UID:52803 Activity:kinda low
4/5     "Friends have said Poplawski was concerned about his weapons being
        seized during Barack Obama's presidency, and friends said he owned
        several handguns and an AK-47 assault rifle"
        Expect to see more of this from gun nuts. (SF Gate)
        \_ Well, he was also a Neo-Nazi nut.
        \_ Isn't Poplawski a RUSSIAN/POLISH name, the race that the Nazi
           was trying to eradicate? It doesn't make any sense.
           \_ no one said he was a BRILLIANT Nazi !
        \_ I hate Vietnamese Nazis
2009/1/22-26 [Reference/Military] UID:52445 Activity:nil
1/22    Virginia Tech student saws off another student's head with a kitchen
        knife in a cafeteria.  Several bystanders witness it but don't stop it.
        Police there in less than 2 minutes.  Good thing they have a gun ban!
        \_ What's with the violent VaTech students from the gun guy to
           Michael Vick? My gf's sister went there and she and her circle
           of friends seem normal, but apparently there is evil lurking.
        \_ Damn. Killer is an Asian guy again also.
           \- You may wish to see the movie: Dark Matter
        \_ You are making assumption that lack of a gun ban would have a)
           prevented this crime b) led to less violence in general.
2008/12/16-29 [Reference/Military] UID:52260 Activity:nil
12/15   Etiquette question: Mother's boyfriend claims to have a ccw permit.
        Mother and boyfriend came over to visit family, boyfriend brought his
        9mm into the house concealed in a fanny pack without asking or informing
        anyone that he is armed.  His actual ability with the gun is completely
        unknown - he may actually even have a ccw permit.  House has a new baby
        in it and baby's mother (my gf) is strongly opposed to random guns in
        the house (though she supports 2nd amendment and comes from a gun
        owning family) due to her nearly dying as a child due to a gun
        The question is, should I have called boyfriend out for this?  I
        accidentally discovered gun while putting his stuff in the closet,
        decided not to say anything until they left, at which point gf flipped
        out.  He's a bit of a jackass in general so I mostly avoid confrontation
        with him.
        \_ You need to confront your mother, not the boyfriend. The bf
           hardly knows you, and typical gun owners treat their guns
           as babies so you're not going to get any mileage by talking
           down on his babies. I would refuse to invite your mother,
           \_ Bullshit.  Any responsible gun owner will respect someone's
              wishes not to bring a gun into their house.  If the BF can't
              handle that he can wait in the car.
              \_ Seconded.
              \_ Not all gun owners are responsible. CCW does not imply
                 you're a mature grown up.
                 \_ If you aren't a mature grown up she probably doubly
                    doesn't want a dude with a gun in her house.
        \_ As a CCW holder, I think you should have called him on it.  My
           personal rule is that I don't bring a gun into a home without
           permission.  Furthermore, I would never let it off my body.  And my
           carry weapon has a safety on the slide and an external hammer, so it
           is impossible to go off without some effort.  A CCW holder is
           required to carry his permit if he's got his weapon, so you could
           just ask to see it.
        \_ Why even tell your baby's mama about this? Seems like it would
           just rile her up for no reason. I would talk to this guy later,
           one on one and just ask him to not bring guns into my house. If
           you want to, you can wimp out and say "my baby's momma doesn't
           like them."
2008/12/8-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:52203 Activity:nil
12/8    "Military jet crashes in San Diego neighborhood"
        Gee.  Reminds me of the movie "Blast from the Past".
        \_ Turns out it's in University City, just off the 805. Lots of
           nice houses around there.
        \_ great, this didn't help the housing price any, isn't it?
2008/12/8-12 [Reference/Military] UID:52201 Activity:nil
        Plaxico tells us about gun safety.
        \_ I'm waiting for him to tell us about gingivitis.
2008/12/8-10 [Reference/Military] UID:52194 Activity:nil
12/7    The good side of a bad economy:
        "In lean times, SoCal residents trade guns for food"
        \_ This is really sad news. How are these poor people going to defend
           themselves without their guns?
2008/11/25-12/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52099 Activity:nil
11/25   war nerd on pirates:
        \_ link from there:
        \_ How long until some shipping company hires a bunch of mercenaries
           to torch these guys?
           \_ It's probably difficult to raid them and at the same time prevent
              the pirates from torching the tanker ship with a gajillion
              barrells of oil.  The South Koreans and Taiwanese should quit
              stripping all the fish from Somalia.
              \_ Too late for that. Hm, how long does it take to burn that
                 much oil? Would it really make sense to scuttle the ship?
              \_ The traditional way to deal with pirates is to burn/conquer
                 their ports. "... to the shores of Tripoli..." Where do you
                 think that line came from? Prez O will surely have to do
                 something about Somalia.
2008/11/19 [Computer/SW/Languages/JavaScript, Reference/Military] UID:52048 Activity:nil 85%like:52047
        right after
        so i guess the saudis can tell who is terror and who isn't.
2008/11/19 [Computer/SW/Languages/JavaScript, Reference/Military] UID:52047 Activity:nil 85%like:52048
        right after

so i guess the saudis can tell who is terror and who isn't huh
2008/11/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:52033 Activity:nil
11/18   "Australia temporarily shuts down navy" (
        Is Japan interested in another Pearl Harbour?
        \_ this is mess up.  Australia *DOES* have pirate issues in her water
2008/11/12-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:51955 Activity:nil 66%like:51950
11/12 [la times]
        SCOTUS hates whales.
        \_ Save the whales - collect the entire set.
           For those who are interested, here is a link to the opinion:
2008/11/12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:51950 Activity:nil 66%like:51955
        USSC hates whales.
2008/10/30-31 [Reference/Military] UID:51741 Activity:kinda low
10/30   I need to stock up on guns. Obama is going to outlaw guns
        \_ I don't think Obama is particularly pro or anti gun.
        \_ Yes, buy guns, gold and beans and move into your bomb shelter
           for the next four years.
           \_ I'd go with 40 just to be safe.
2008/10/21-26 [Reference/Military] UID:51595 Activity:low
10/20   How come aircraft like A-10 can disable a modern tank with a 30mm
        cannon while tanks need 125mm or larger guns to penetrate each other's
        \_ That's a good question.  Maybe it's the angle of the incoming
           shells compared to the armor?  The machine gun effect?  Shorter
           range on the 30mm gun?
        \_ It's about range and rate of engagement, though I can't find a
           citation.  3km+ vs. ~1.2 km. Also compare how many kills with a
           fully loaded A-10 vs. an M1A1.
        \_ Insurgents don't have tanks.
        \_ depleted uranium rounds
        \_ Maybe it's also because tanks are more havily armoured on the sides
           (against other tanks and RPGs) than on the top?
           \_ Yes, tanks generally have weaker armor on top and below, making
              them more vulnerable to vertical fire.  Also their armor is
              sloped, making it more effective against horizontal ground fire
              than vertical fire.  Their most effective armor is designed to
              protect against frontal fire.
              \_ Which is the idea behind the Javelin
                 \_ This is TOTALLY COOL. I love our military.
                    \_ Cf. its inspiration, the Roman pila (singular: pilum).
                    \_ Cf. its inspiration, the Roman Plumbata.
2008/10/14-17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Reference/Military] UID:51529 Activity:low
10/14   This is why people shouldn't own guns:          -anti-gun nut,0,7425239.story
        \_ The guy made 1.2 mil (convert paper to money), then another
           0.5 mil from the house. How could he have just run out of
           money? This is baffling. I hope he didn't blow it up on hookers.
           \_ On margin investments are how you make (and lose) 1.2 mil.
        \_ You're an idiot.  You probably think the $50M to put up a net on the
           GG bridge is a good investment?
           \_ Jumping off the bridge: jumper dies
              Shooting guns: someone may grab your gun, or you go nuts
                and shoot innocent people, or your child shoots accidentally
                \_ Jumping off the bridge: Causes a traffic jam,
                   politicians waste time and money talking about it.
                   Shoots self: No traffic jam, politicians waste time
                   and money talking about it anyway.
                   The bigger picture, of course, is that it is
                   completely acceptable loss to the gains, just like
                   allowing people to have massive weapons that are
                   \_ What is worse, causing traffic jam or accidentally
                      or intentionally killing your family members and
                      by-standers because you went balistic?
                      \_ You could probably kill a bunch of people with a car
                         if you decided to do so.
        \_ right. Exactly.  People also shouldn't have cars, or swimming pools
           Or be allowed to take their kids to mcdonalds.  Why don't all these
           fools see how right we are and how wrong they are.
2008/10/13-15 [Reference/Military] UID:51496 Activity:nil
10/13   Laserbolts are flung from Vader's TIE fighter, connecting with Red
        Leader's Rebel X-wing fighter.  Red Leader buys it, creating a
        tremendous explosion far below.  He screams and is destroyed.
2008/9/25-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:51297 Activity:low
9/25    have you called/e-mailed your congresscritter today?
        remember:  barney frank is a slimebucket
        \_ And George Bush is a War Hero: Mission Accomplished! Do you still
           call them Freedom Fries, I am kind of curious.
        \_ And George Bush is a War Hero, so of course none of this is
           his fault.
2008/9/17-19 [Science, Reference/Military] UID:51211 Activity:nil
9/17    did anyone watch Generation Kill?  The 'gay' Marine is a real Marine,
        and was in the unit Generation Kill is about.
2008/8/28-9/3 [Reference/Military] UID:50992 Activity:nil
8/28    Another example of why concealed carry is a good idea, especially
        if you are a drug dealer:
        \_ This is the second story like this I've read recently, for heaven's
           sakes people, don't try to use a fake gun in a robbery!
           \_ People do that all the time.  Guns are expensive.  Toys aren't.
2008/8/22-29 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:50943 Activity:nil
8/22    Cindy McCain - The only way to get around Arizona is a private plane!
        \_ She must have gotten that advice from Al Gore.
        \_ What is the carbon footprint of owning 7 homes? Lawn,
           heat, AC, maintenance, wash, etc etc?
        \_ Pretty impressive that she managed to spend 50-100 hours getting
           training without him noticing.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:50731 Activity:moderate
7/30    Can I CCW a gun into say, a post office?
        \_ no.
        How about other government buildings?
        \_ no.
           \_ Incorrect.  State or City gov't buildings are covered by CCW.
            \_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station
               or courthouse.  I'll be there with the camera taking pictures
               of your surprise.
              \_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station or
                 courthouse.  I'll be there with the camera taking pictures of
                 your surprise.
                 \_ A CCW covers any local or state building or meeting
                    required to be open to the public.
                 \_ I dunno, cops go into these things all the time and they
                    are all armed. They just take off their side arms when
                    they go through the metal detector. I imagine it would
                    go more or less like that, in fact most cops would probably
                    just think you were undercover or something.
                    \_ right, except they actually have real badges
                       and you have a frigging commoner's CCW permit
                       \_ Of course I've *been* in a courthouse with a CCW
                          while carrying, no problem.  (No metal detector
                          \_ Where? San Diego and most SFBA Courthouses screen
                             with metal detectors.
        What happens when you have to go through the airport and they scan
        you, can you just show them your CCW permit and carry your gun inside
        the building?
        \_ you go to jail.  actually i lied.  they take you to stupid
           person's jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
        \_ you go to jail.  actually i lied.  they take you to dumbass
           jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
        \_ Read the CA law.  The permit is for CA, not for federal property.
           Airports have specific regulations about guns.
        \_ In an airport, a CCW covers you up to the sterile area.  No
           exceptions for firearms beyond that (see CA penal code 171.5(b)(1))
           \_ If you're dumb enough to carry a gun to an airport these days,
              I think you should stay home.
              \_ But I want to be a hero like emarkp and save innocent
                 people from TERRORISTS!!!              -emarkp #1 fan
2008/7/28-8/3 [Transportation/Car, Reference/Military] UID:50710 Activity:nil
7/28    The impossibility of getting a CCW and the potential for accidents
        and great harm from handguns makes ownership very unattractive.
        I'm now thinking of getting a taser. Do people need to register
        tasers?  Can they be carried in automobiles? CCW tasers?
        \_ A taser is considered a loaded firearm. (People v. Heffner)
           \_ It can't be. It is projectile using COMPRESSED AIR and
              should not be subjected to gun-powder related weapons.
        \_ Seriously, can you carry a taser in your car? Can you
           conceal it?
           \_ HEFFNER held that a taser is a firearm for the purposes
              of Penal Code 12031, which makes it a misdemeanor to carry
              a loaded firearm on your person or in a vehicle. If you
              could find some way of unloading your taser, then you
              probably could carry it in your car or conceal it. Also
              there are several exceptions to 12031. One of these
              applies to people who have a permit to carry a concealed
2008/7/24-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Military] UID:50674 Activity:kinda low
7/24    "Killings turn focus on San Francisco sanctuary law"

        "SAN FRANCISCO - The scene repeats itself daily on city streets: a
        driver gets stuck bumper to bumper, blocking an intersection and
        preventing another car from turning left.

        But authorities say that was enough to cause Edwin Ramos to unload an
        AK-47 assault weapon on a man and his two sons, killing them.

        The victims' family learned that Ramos had been arrested at least
        three times before the shooting and evaded deportation, largely
        because of San Francisco's sanctuary status.

        The Bolognas' relatives say Ramos apparently benefited from the policy
        when he reportedly was convicted twice of felonies in 2003 and 2004
        but never was turned over for deportation."
        \_ Are you the same person freaking out over the police state taking
           your guns away?
           \_ No, that was me. This guy is a violent felon who shouldn't have
              been in the country to begin with.  And gun laws don't stop
              criminals from having guns.  It's nearly impossible to legally
              have an AK-47 in CA.
        \_ WHEN did this event happen? July 24th? Or earlier?
           \_ No, this happened a few weeks ago.
        \_ So I'm getting two ideas:
                1) immigrants = BAD!!!
                2) CCW = GOOD!
                \_ 1) Wrong.  ILLEGAL immigrants = BAD.  The sanctuary law in
                   SF is not about legal immigrants.
        \_ People who gridlock intersections deserve to be beaten, but this
           is carrying things a bit too far.
        \_ Fucking stupid US law. This person would be executed by the
           time you read this post in good old China. Human right my
           fucking ass. No wonder your prisons are over crowded,
           because of idiots who insist that it's cheaper to keep
           criminals in Jail than a bullet in the head. Guys like this
           should have their fingers chopped off one by one. -ray
           \_ Well, in CA it IS cheaper to keep them in jail, but that's just
              because anti-death penalty types have made it so.  30 years
              of lawyer fees >>> 60 years of prisoner room and board.
2008/7/24-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Reference/Military] UID:50673 Activity:nil
7/24    Why does Pakistan need a $230m boost to its air force?
        Seriously, F-16s against the Taliban? Really?
        \_ You don't know anything about CAS.
           \_ Enlighten me.
           \_ Okay, then explain to me why using an F-16 as a bomb truck is
              sensible, or why an F-16 is a more suitable choice for a CAS
              role than something like an A-10 or a Super Tucano.
2008/7/22-28 [Reference/Military] UID:50654 Activity:moderate
7/22    I went to a gun range last week with a bunch of co-workers as part
        of the group offsite event and I gained a lot of appreciation for
        shooting guns. I have a few questions:
        1) How hard is it to get a CCW permit?
        2) How do you find out what % and # of people in SF have a permit?
        3) Does there exist a range that lets you rent their guns without:
                i) having to own a gun
                ii) having to bring a friend with you if you don't have one?
        4) If I buy a gun for recreational purpose (not for defense but
           for weekend practice), do I need to register it, and will other
           people (e.g. your spouse, neighbor, coworkers) find out?
        5) What is a legal way to transport your gun in your car and/or
           airplane if you don't have a CCW permit? For car-- trunk? Glove
           \_ If you get an exensive gun, it is best to carry it in a dark
              velvet bag. -lewis
              \_ what is considered expensive? 500? 1000?
        \_ Carry a gun and you become a liability 99.99% of the time.
           Don't carry a gun, you'll only be robbed 0.01% of the time.
           I mean, assume you're in a safe place.
           Which one is more desirable? The latter of course.
           Don't be a dumbass like emarkp. Don't carry a gun.
           \_ And you got your 99.99% and 0.01% numbers from....? -emarkp
              \_ Obviously from his ass.  I wonder if he thinks cops with
                 guns are a liability also.  And if not if he is one the
                 morons who believes that if you take an idiot and "train"
                 him, he stops being an idiot. -crebbs
              \_ Even if it were 95% vs 5%, the argument holds.
                 You totally missed the point, dumb fuck.
                 \_ Except that your 95% number is patently absurd.  The very
                    large set of law abiding citizens with CCW permits in
                    the US are not causing problems 95% of the time when they
                    carry a concealed firearm.
                    \_ Yet it only takes 0.0001% of problem to occur to
                       mess up whatever point you're trying to make.
                    \_ "very large set"? Really? What are the actual numbers
                       involved? -!pp
        \_ Dude, seriously, Google is your friend.
        \_ Is this your first time shooting? Take a gun safety course
           first, before doing anything else. I think you should put
           at least 1000 rounds into a Ron Paul voter before you even consider
           buying one for yourself. -ex-military
        \_ 1) In CA, it depends on county--in SF, pretty much impossible
           2) Contact the county sheriff
           3) Yes
           4) All guns have to be registered
              \_wrong.. rifles and semi auto rifles do not have to be
                only assault rifles
                \_ Sorry, all handguns. -emarkp
                \_ wrong.  assault *weapons* have to be registered, and that's
                   a larger set than assault *rifles* (which would require not
                   merely registration, but a class 3 FFL).  "assault rifle"
                   has actual meaning in firearms nomenclature, while "assault
                   weapon" is a political term referring to anything that
                   politicians think looks scary (including cosmetic
                   similarities to assault rifles).
              \_ No tips on how to keep your guns hidden from your spouse?
              \_ Where can I find this information? I'd like to generate
                 a Google heat map showing where registered gun owners
                 are, similar to the Megan Law offender web site.
           5) Guns must be transported in a locked container.  The trunk
              qualifies, as well as a hard or soft case with a lock.
           6) A good automatic handgun will cost $600-$1000.
                \_ The glove compartment, however, and any other biult in box,
                    even if locked, specifically DOES NOT qualify. -phuqm
           6) A good automatic handgun will cost $600-$1000.  Revolver may be
        \_ First, go and get your CA Handgun Safety Certificate. It is required
           before buying a gun here and teaches a lot of the info you want.
           I don't think a class is needed, but I guess it might help you
           avoid hurting yourself when you fire it (don't put your hand in the
           way of the slide).
           \_ Unfortunately, the test for the cert is useless.  You can pass
              with common sense.  The best thing is to have a friend go over
              some safety tips with you, and use common sense:  never point a
              gun at anything you don't want to shoot, keep it locked up and
              out of the reach of children, etc.  -emarkp
           \_ The NRA offers a lot of great free classes:
              \_ But handgun safety, like most safety, is common sense. The
                 legal info about transporting stuff etc. is in the "study
                 guide" so it's up to you to learn it, even though the actual
                 test is kind of a joke.
                 \_ The best guide I've seen about the legal side of things is
                    "How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail"
                    It covers written and case law, in plain English, and in
                    detail. -emarkp
                    \_ Ha ha ha ha ha. Don't own a gun, rarely have to
                       worry about anything.
                       \_ Ha ha ha?
           \_ The NRA offers a lot of great classes:
        \_ In California, (1) tends to be easier in the rural counties.
           Otherwise, you basically need political connections (ie, contribute
           heavily to the sheriff's reelection capaign, or be an elected
           heavily to the sherriff's reelection capaign, or be an elected
           official yourself).
           \_ How the hell did emarkp get a CCW then?
        \_ I still want to know if emarkp carries a concealed weapon into
2008/7/22-28 [Reference/Military] UID:50652 Activity:nil
7/22    House member doesn't like resident, has his guns taken away.  See why
        we need a 2nd amendment?
        \_ Bwahaha, more like loonie visits Rep's office, makes ruckus, gets
           911 called on his ass, guns confiscated as part of investigation.
           \_ And why were his guns confiscated?
              \_ Don't know. At a guess, perhaps he said something vaguely
                 threatening? Or perhaps the cops over-reacted, and now he
                 can sue to get his guns back.
2008/7/21-23 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50645 Activity:nil
7/21    So, is it a civil war?
        \_ Is what a civil war?
2008/7/18-23 [Reference/Military] UID:50617 Activity:nil
7/18    Heller wins SCOTUS, DC still refuses to register his handgun
        \_ "A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading
            weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading
            guns are outlawed because they are grouped with machine guns."
           Apart from revolvers, chain-ammo-fed MGs/Gatling Guns, and top-
           loaded sniper rifles, what guns are _not_ bottom-loading? Muskets?
           \_ Shotguns?
              \_ Pump action shotguns load from bottom.
               \_ The one I used loaded from the side.
           \_ So, a semi-auto is OK if you hold in gangsta' style?
           \_ hunting rifles?
              \_ Most hunting rifles are semi-automatic, and use a magazine.
                 Even bolt-action rifles often load from a magazine.
                 \_ shrug, I'm going with image results from what google
                    returns for "hunting rifle"
                    \_ Yes, most of those rifles use a magazine.
           \_ ?
2008/7/18-23 [Reference/Military] UID:50615 Activity:nil
7/18    I love guns, but only old guns. I'd love to try out muskets, you
        know, those things that won us our freedom. I'd also love to try out
        Washington era canons, those that were used to scare off the bloody
        reds. Where can I go to shoot muskets and canons?
        \_ Civil war re-enactments.
        \_ There's an antique store, I think it's called Sergent's Surplus
           or something in Oakland? I have no idea what the legality is
           wrt to owning an antique ball/musket load weapon, I'm guessing
           you're not really required to register since it's so hard to
           kill someone with it. I mean, who wants to carry black powder,
           flint, loader, balls, etc etc? It's a drag!
           \_ A lot of people hunt with muzzle loaders.  Typically there are
              separate licensing requirements.
           \_ Yeah, they really make drivebys inconvenient. Thank Jesus the
              supreme court has upheld our God-given rights to have assault
              rifles instead.
2008/7/8 [Transportation/Bicycle, Reference/Military] UID:50502 Activity:high
7/8     Hey tom, what do you think of my carrying a gun on my bike?
        \_ isn't there a law wrt to gun in the vehicle?
           \_ I have a CCW permit
2008/7/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:50489 Activity:kinda low
7/7     Reiser leads police to body of Nina [sfgate]
        \_ i can't believe this is the same reiser of ReiserFS
           \_ then you never met him.
              \_ does he have Asperger's Syndrome and carry a gun like emarkp?
                 \_ At least he doesn't think God talks to him.
                 \_ emarkp is a nice enough guy in person, he just has a
                    ridiculous world view.  Reiser is insane.  -tom
                    \_ Almost all Aspies appear to be nice but have really
                       really warped perception of the world view. Also,
                       almost all Aspies deny that they are Aspies despite
                       rigorous clinical checks. Yeah, typical Aspies.
        \_ carrying your gun into church isnt aspie, it's just stupid.
           \_ Unless it saves your life and the lives of others.
              or, another
              \_ ok i'll give you that.  if you live South Africa, you probably
                 need to carry a gun in some places.  I live in AMERICA.
                 \_ carrying a gun makes the carrier feel safe and everyone
                    else unsafe. Arms race, anyone?
              \_ Cool. I wonder if taser would help in this case. Also,
                 how carrying a handgun helps in cases like the
                 North Hollywood shootout?
                 \_ emarkp's awesome CCW handgun sure would have helped
              \_ typical religious nutcase takes 1-2 examples and say
                 "yes it works!" and also cry out "statistics lie!"
                 Typical Aspies also don't change their view point once
                 they've made up their mind. Hello Aspie emarkp!
                 \_ Hi anonymous troll!  You said "it's just stupid".  I post
                    counter-example.  You go ad hominem.  Thanks for making my
                    point. -emarkp
                 Two dead after Clearfield church shooting
                 Shooting outside Cobb church leaves 1 dead
                 Pontiac teen sought for allegedly killing boy at church
                    \_ Oh, this is a good one.  What is a 16-yr old doing with
                       a handgun?
                 One dead after police-involved shooting at Rockwell Church
                 And that's just a trivial Google News search from the
                 past month.  I'll also point out that the Colorado Springs
                 incident was an *armed security guard*, which is a lot
                 different than some random dweeb with a gun.  -tom
                 \_ Incorrectly reported.  She's a *volunteer*.
                    \_ She's a volunteer security guard.
                 \_ These events are pretty random.  The first one is about a
                    guy who went and killed the janitor at a church because the
                    guy was having an affair with his wife.  The second is a
                    guy driving up to a church parking lot and shooting someone
                    there.  The third was a guy who drove into a church parking
                    lot and pointed a gun at the officer, who shot the guy
                    dead.  What do these have to do with anything?
                    \_ I thought the topic was gun deaths.
                       \_ The claim above was that "carrying your gun into
                          church" was stupid.
2008/7/7-9 [Reference/Military] UID:50487 Activity:nil 71%like:50485
7/7     I didn't know Mayor Daley had a soda account [washington post]
        \_ Wow, there are some amazing quotes in here.
           "Clearly, the bad guys can get guns...[but]... I shudder at the
           thought of everyone packing heat."  This guy is literally in favor
           of only criminals having guns?
           "Just because it's constitutional doesn't mean it should be
           allowed."  Okay....
2008/7/7 [Reference/Military] UID:50485 Activity:nil 71%like:50487
7/7     I didn't know Mayor Daley had a soda account
        \_ Wow, there are some amazing quotes in here.
           "Clearly, the bad guys can get guns...[but]... I shudder at the
           thought of everyone packing heat."  This guy is literally in favor
           of only criminals having guns?
           "Just because it's constitutional doesn't mean it should be
           allowed."  Okay....
2008/7/5-9 [Reference/Military] UID:50476 Activity:nil
        *This* is why you carry a gun.
        \_ This is really really awesome. On the other hand, this is
           the wild wild DETROIT, not the safe People's Republic of California
           \_ Ironically it is the places with highest crime that you are most
              likely to be forbidden to have or carry a gun.
              \_ Hmm, I think perhaps you don't understand irony.
                 \_ Is it ironic that there is still high gun violence in
                    where guns are forbidden?
2008/6/30-7/14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50425 Activity:nil
        Bush Administration aiming the US toward war with Iran.  McCain
        would go along.  Voting for McCain might get us into a war
        with Iran.
2008/6/30-7/14 [Reference/Military] UID:50421 Activity:nil
6/30    Nightline did a segment on open carry.  Pretty good actually.
        \_ -niloc
        \_ I'm waiting for,, and
           We should have all of these things just like the good old west.
                \_ Ha ha!  The 2nd ammendment protects the right to bear
                   arms.  It does not promote whoremongering, stupidity,
                   and perversion.
                   \_ And remember, kids, Scalia's Opinion opined as to the
                      nature of modern arms, so if we ever go to phazers set
                      to stun, your projectile weapon stops being a right.
2008/6/30-7/14 [Reference/Military] UID:50418 Activity:nil
6/30    Gun-fearing lefty changes to Armed Feminist
        \_ Dear Gun Owners Forum, I never thought it would happen to me, but...
2008/6/26-30 [Reference/Military] UID:50383 Activity:nil
6/26    Details aren't out yet, but SCOTUS has ruled:
        Guns are an individual right.
        \_ Details are out:
           In a nutshell: "you can have a reasonable loaded gun in your house
           \_ What is "reasonable loaded"? 8 rounds? 20? 100 round
              extender? How about one shell with crazy ass projectiles?
              \_ Yes, welcome to the next level of constitutional arguments.
              \_ phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range -t101
           without a trigger lock, so long as you meet reasonable licensing
           It's a remarkably restrained opinion from Scalia. More power to
               \- it was a 5-4 decision. the restraint may
                  say more about "the rule of five"
                  [BRENNAN J.: "if you get 5, you rule"]
                  than ASCALIA's "moderation". but yeah, i
                  agree there were various narrowing
                  options ... although maybe that's to keep
                  the guns away from the scary people. --psb
           \_ that's fine. i can have my handgun without a trigger lock
              and my 50 BMG with a trigger lock. kewl
           \_ Given how relatively restrained it is, I'm shocked there are 4
              dissenting justices. -emarkp
              \_ how many shells do you put in your loaded gun?
                 \_ In CA I'm only allowed a 10-round magazine. -emarkp
              \_ I will reserve judgment on this until I read the dissenting
                 opinions. Perhaps you should do the same.
                 \_ Okay, read: Breyer's arguing from a different interpreta-
                    tion of 2ndA; in the context of his reading, his arguments
                    hold. In light of the various issues at hand, it's not
                    that shocking to me that there would be 4 dissenting
                    Justices; this is a complicated issue and deserves scrutiny
                    and discussion.
        \_ Of course individuals have a Constitutional right to firearms as
           both a check against govt tyranny and for self-protection.  Legal
           disputes are about where you can carry what level of lethal
           - On one extreme you can only have a single shotgun in the home with
             child locks within a locked safe and for which you need to
             re-permit every year
           - On the other extreme any 21-year-old can openly carry one fully
             automatic weapon with matching handgun and clip extender as long
             as the safeties are always engaged.  Firearms must be secured
             in a locked gun rack in your cube when you're away, of course.
2008/6/8-12 [Reference/Military] UID:50183 Activity:moderate
        \_ I dare you to open carry in the following 3 places:
           -Disneyland or Great America
           -San Francisco
           -UC Berkeley
        \_ Awesome. We bringing back posses and lynchmobs while we're
           at it?
           \_ And you see these as equivalent how?
              \_ Wild West-style packing -> Wild West-style living
           \_ You do know that in CA open carry is legal if the gun isn't
              loaded, right? -emarkp
              \_ Would be a pretty stupid thing to do and will probably
                 get you killed.
                 \_ From what I hear, it's not dangerous, but it does give you
                    an opportunity to educate the LEOs.  It's an alternative
                    for people who really need a firearm (EMTs) but who are
                    denied concealed carry permits. -emarkp
                    \_ Walk around with a gun all day long and see how
                       long it takes before someone shoots your ass. Plus,
                       you are going to have LEOs on your ass all day long
                       as people report an idiot with a gun.
                    \_ I would like you to walk around your municipality
                       with a six gun strapped to your side and report
                       back your findings. I am genuinely curious. -ausman
                       \_ I have a CCW, and don't need to try this.  Because so
                          many counties deny all CCW's (unless you're a friend
                          of the sheriff) open carry is becoming more common.
                          \_ Do you bring gun into Temple?
                          \_ Do you open carry at church?
                             \_ Again, I have a CCW, so don't need to open
                                carry ever. -emarkp
                                \_ You carry a gun under your shirt, into
                                   temple?  Jesus Christ.
                                   \_ Guns are scary! -- ilyas
                                   \_ Your reading comprehension is weak.
                                      Plus, if I do, it might come in handy. It
                                      sure did for Jeanne Assam.  Also, the
                                      phrase "into temple" is nonsensical.
                          \_ That is an interesting article. When I was in
                             Jerusalem, I saw people openly carrying firearms
                             all the time. In Texas, most bars have a sign at
                             the door that says "no firearms." CA is not really
                             like that, though.
                             \_ That must be why Jerusalem and Texas are such
                                safe places to live.
                                \_ E_CAUSALITY
                          \_ Stupid.
                             "But there are times when the response is
                             more severe. Deveraux has been stopped
                             several times by police, most memorably in
                             December when he was walking around his

                             An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at
                             Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In
                             the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed
                             Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux
                             convinced them they had no legal reason to
                             detain him."
                             What a waste of officers' time and taxpayers'
                             dollars and possibly getting yourself killed
                             by a jumpy cop to boot. The article had
                             yahoos talking about feeling brave when being
                             confronted by LEOs. Maybe they should stop
                             wasting LEO time and keep the gun at home
                             where it might be more good than trouble.
                             \_ How soon will this citizen own the police
                                \_ Let me guess, you are a big fan of tort
                                   \_ Yep, and controlling abuse of the gov't.
                                \_ About as likely as a bullet in his brain.
2008/6/3-5 [Reference/Military] UID:50133 Activity:low
6/2     Just a heads-up on what passed in the CA Assembly the other day:
        AB 2062
          "The bill would establish a database maintained by the department
        to serve as a registry of handgun ammunition vendors.
          "This bill would require that commencing July 1, 2009, unless
        specifically excluded, no person shall sell or transfer more than 50
        rounds of handgun ammunition in any month unless  they are he or she is
        registered as a handgun ammunition vendor, as defined. The bill would
        also require these vendors to obtain a background clearance for those
        employees who would handle ammunition in the course and scope of their
        employment. The bill would require the Department of Justice to
        maintain a registry of registered handgun ammunition vendors, as
        specified. Violation of these provisions, as specified, would be a
          "This bill would, subject to exceptions, commencing July 1, 2009,
        require certain ammunition vendors to obtain a thumbprint and other
        information from ammunition purchasers, and would require submission of
        that information to the Department of Justice, as specified. A
        violation of these provisions would be a misdemeanor."
        \_ Do they use mysql or postgres?
        \_ But you can still buy ammunition without without being tracked,
           right? I don't really see how this new regulation can help with
           gun violence. I think a more effective (but more controversial)
           method would be to track or go as far as running a background
           check on the buyers, not the sellers.
           \_ You missed the whole thumbprint thing?
2008/5/30-6/2 [Reference/Military] UID:50099 Activity:moderate
5/30    Mass Shooting Stopped by CCW Permit Holder
        \_ See, here's the way I see CCW holders--it's like vaccinations.  It's
           individual protection, plus herd protection. -emarkp
           \_ except there is one minor problem. The vaccine is still
              not perfected, and the number of people it saves is still
              less than the number of people it kills. It addition, there's
              a huge possibility of someone going crazy after receiving the
              vaccination. There's a better vaccine out there. TASER.
           \_ is gun ownership pride a Mormon thing, or an emarkp thing?
           \_ Until one of these CCW holders goes berserk and shoots up a
              mall or, worse, shoots an innocent bystander when trying to
              play hero.
              \_ Exactly my point earier. Saved by B <<< Saved by A,
                 where A = CCW holder saving lives and
                       B = CCW holder going bezerk
                 I understand gun holders are passionate about saving
                 and defending lives but statistics say otherwise.
                \_ what statistics? the one's out your ass?
                 chances are another CCW will blow the shit out of the
                 very rare berkeker CCW
                 very rare berserker CCW
                      Now feel free to debunk or defend your 2nd, but
                      you'll still sound like a major fucking idiot.
                      \_ brady campaign? that commie group? gimme a break
                      \_ I can't find the shooting rampage by CCW holder stats
                         you promised.
                      \_ I'm going to believe the stats from a rabidly anti-gun
                         group?  So, I guess you're going to believe the Bush
                         administration on WMDs, right?
                         Much of this is wrong.  The Texas CCW stuff has been
                         discredited--most arrests of CCW holders were for
                         non-violent crimes, and only 100/215K felony
                         convictions of CCW holders occurred (in 2000).
                      \_ Why are crime rates higher in areas which have banned
                         guns? (In DC for instance, rates of violence went up
                         after the handgun ban.)
                         \_ maybe it's a US only thing.  countries with strict
                            gun laws have almost no gun crimes for some reason
                            \_ Scotland has recently said that since they
                               banned handguns 10 years ago, attempted
                               homicides with guns have *tripled*.  Where are
                               your stats?
                            \_ they just have higher violent crime. they use
                               knives and bats.. and rape is easier.. look at
                               Austrialia.. they used to have guns. now their
                               have high violent crime
                         \_ GUNS BAD!  PEACE GOOD!  HEY HO! HEY HO WE DON'T
                            NEED NO GUNS NO MO'!
                   \_ Does it say that the shooter was CCW?  I didn't see that
        \_ "Investigators say a feud between two local families is behind the
            early-morning shooting inside the bar."
           Good on armed Samaritan for capping this clown. Mind you, if they
           didn't hand out guns along with liquor in Nevada, this might have
           just been a knife fight anyway.
2008/5/30-31 [Reference/Military] UID:50095 Activity:nil
5/29    I don't want to own a gun but I'd like to go to the range to shoot
        for fun. However, all the range I've been to requires that you
        bring your own gun, or bring someone with you. Is there any way
        I can get around this problem?
        \_ I've been to many ranges that would rent you a gun.
           \_ I think the OP is talking about the rule that some(?) ranges
              enforce to reduce suicide liability.  Bring your own, and
              you're on your own.  Bring a friend, and you're much less
              likely to commit suicide.  Come alone and rent, not good.
              \_ pp has a reading comprehension problem.
                 \_ yes, perhaps.  I made the inference that 'bring someone
                    with you' meant 'bring someone [with a gun] with you.'
                    Which was wrong, as another poster kindly clarified.
        \_ Where do you live? I'm in the same boat. We should go together
           and be BFF.
        \_ *Every* range I've been to has guns for rent, typically you leave
           your drivers license.
           \_ This one has a severe form of reading comprehension problem.
2008/5/29-6/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50084 Activity:nil
        \_ Nice to see the Swiftboat Brigade knocked back into the festering
           swamp they belong in.
2008/5/28-30 [Reference/Military] UID:50067 Activity:moderate
5/27    How is Heckler & Koch P2000 compared to say, Beretta PX4 Storm?
        How about the ultra configurable Sig Sauer P250?
        \_ The only time I really wished I had a gun was when we were
           hiking in the middle of nowhere and there were a bunch of
           gangster looking people who kept looking at us and pointing
           as if they wanted to rape the girls and kill the guys or
           something. They could have easily done so if they wanted to.
           Other than that, there's never been a time where
           I wished I had a gun.
        \_ The P250 is a sub compact frame, the PX4 storm is compact. I've
           found I just don't like the grips of the subcompacts, and am going
           to stick with the PX4. -emarkp
           \_ Also P250 is double action (DA) only. I hate DA-only mode.
              Imagine needing accuracy for the second shot. Always get
              DA->SA with de-cocker option.
      Good site
              \_ Agreed, DA/SA is better at least for me.  It's one reason I've
                 rejected a revolver for concealed carry. -emarkp
                 \_ Huh?  Many modern revolvers are DA/SA. -- ilyas
                 \_ Also a revolver is hard to reload and the chamber is
                    so friggin bulky. We're not in the wild wild west anymore
                 \_ I'm a gun newbie and I'm wondering if DA/SA is better
                    for me? I'd like to be able to "cock" the first shot
                    with a single trigger pull, then pull lighter with
                    subsequent pulls. Is that what you call a "DA/SA"
                    gun? What are some autoloading guns that are DA/SA?
                    \_ Yes.  DA = Double Action = hammer not cocked
                             SA = Single Action = hammer is cocked
                       On an automatic handgun, the slide kicks back and ejects
                       a round, then cocks the hammer and loads the new round.
                       Most automatics are DA/SA.  Some are SA only which
                       require manually cocking the hammer before the first
                       round can be fired.
                       \_ HK P2000 has many modes, are they switcheable
                          between the modes? Like DA only, LEM, DA/SA...
                          \_ I honestly don't know.
                             \_ Are your guns switcheable?
                                \_ no, but my penis is
                                \_ ??
        \_ I've always wanted to hide spare guns and clips in houseplants,
        \_ I've always wanted to hide spare guns and magazines in houseplants,
           like Chow Yun Fat.
           \_ Magazines. Not clips.
2008/5/27-6/1 [Reference/Military] UID:50063 Activity:nil
5/27    Hey ilyas, tell us about your guns
        \_ Cracks me up how clueless you people are about guns. -not ilyas
           Read up on "shall-issue" states.
           <DEAD>en.wikipedia.orssue"<DEAD> states.
           \_ California is a "may issue" state.
           \_ Guns are scary!  Anyone who owns a gun must be a nutcase!
2008/5/26-30 [Reference/Military] UID:50057 Activity:high
5/26    "Energy fears looming, new survivalists prepare" (AP) : Yahoo! Green:
        \_ Speaking of protection, I'm thinking of getting a 9mm handgun.
           What is a good brand to buy? Is HK worth the extra $500 over
           American brand 9mm guns? I really like German guns but wonder
           why they cost a lot more.
           \_ If you are getting it for protection it doesn't matter.  If
              you are getting it as a fetishtic totem to ward off the
              boogey man and make up for your pathetic sex life, then by
              all means get the best money can buy.
              \_ Oh and here's a hint:  you aren't getting it for protection.
        \_ The only time I really wished I had a gun was when we were
           hiking in the middle of nowhere and there were a bunch of
           gangster looking people who kept looking at us and pointing
           as if they wanted to rape the girls and kill the guys or
           something. They could have easily done so if they wanted to.
           Other than that, there's never been a time where
           I wished I had a gun.
           \_ What were gangsters doing hiking?  Some sort of training
              \_ The hell I know, the were burning stinky plant things
                 and shouting and screaming
           \_ I only dream about having a gun when people double park
              their giant automobile in the middle of Gough.
           \_ Is it for home defence or sport shooting? If it is for home
              defence, consider a shotgun instead.
                \_ There's a pistol which can chamber .410 shotgun shells.
                   What do you think of that as a home defense weapon?
                   \_ That's the Taurus Judge.  It looks ideal, but on that
                      platform the recoil must be horrendous.
                   \_ I think having the shotgun look is also useful for
                      stopping intruders.
                      \_ Yes, and the sound of a pump action is instantly
                         recognizable.  You can also load it with birdshot,
                         which won't go through 2 layers of drywall.  The only
                         drawback is that the long barrel can be difficult to
                         manage in hallways.  Hence the above-mentioned Judge.
                         \_ Oh boy! Sleep! That's when I'm a Viking!
                         \_ Oh boy! Sleep! That's where I'm a Viking!
                            \_ ???
                               \_ The insinuation appears to be that someone
                                  here is delusional.
                                  \_ Living a rich fantasy life, please.
           \_ You have to try holding them to see if they fit your hand, etc.
              My first handgun is a Beretta 92FS.  I'm going to get the Beretta
              PX4 Storm for regular carry (it's about half a pound lighter, and
              the barrel is 1" shorter).  I hate the feel of Glock, though a
              lot of people swear by them.  Springfield XD is a good choice as
              well.  S&W has put out their M&P line, but they're new enough
              that they have some of the annoying CA features (mag disconnect).
              \_ What do you mean by "regular carry"? I thought California's
                 ban on concealed weapon (handgun under your coat) makes
                 legalized handgun ownership less appealing than say,
                 other gun loving states.
                 \_ Not only that, but why would you want to wear a coat? It's
                    hot out.
                    \_ I have a concealed carry permit.  I carry under an
                       untucked shirt. I can carry legally nearly anywhere in
                       \_ so are you like, waiting for the 0.0001% chance
                          that some nutso starts shooting people randomly
                          and you come into the picture and save everyone
                          and become the hero of the day?
                          \_ No, I think the nutjobs need to be outnumbered by
                             non-nutjobs with guns. -pp
                          \_ My wife wears a lot of jewelry and we have
                             to go to some bad neighborhoods to collect rent.
                             You do not know me.  Do NOT anger me!
                             \_ Ah this makes a lot of sense. I'd probably
                                do the same in your shoes. I guess my life
                                is a bit overly sheltered.              -pp
                                \_ I have not shot anyone (yet) but I have
                                   had to draw on several delinquent renters
                                   and a neighbor to whom I foolishly lent
                                   money.  By the way, I am ambidextrous,
                                   so I can shoot with either or both hands.
                                   Does andybody know if a concealed carry
                                   Does andbody know if a concealed carry
                                   Does anybody know if a concealed carry
                                   permit allows me to carry two guns?
                                   \_ Unit III is a lot more dangerous than I remember.
                                   \_ Unit III is a lot more dangerous than I
                                   \_ You obviously don't have a CCW.  CA
                                      allows up to 4 weapons on a permit.
                                   \_ Your wife should not be wearing jewelry
                                      in rough neighborhoods (duh). Are you
                                      brandishing a firearm in an attempt to
                                      collect a debt? If so, you are breaking
                                      multiple laws, not just one.
                                      \_ She has a right to wear jewelry
                                         any where she wants.  Why should
                                         she abridge her jewelry wearing
                                         right just because of violent
                                         poor people?  Are you even American?
                                         Should I change out of my Rolex
                                         before going to collect the rent?
                                         \_ well since I am American, and
                                            the dude with the wife and jewelry
                                            and multiple pieces of property
                                            motd poster doesn't exist,
                                            I WIN.
                                   \_ Are you Kip Macy?
                    Law's pretty complicated in California. It varies from
                    county to county, so even if you can carry it in one
                    city, you cannot carry it in another city. This pretty
                    much renders gun ownership useless unless you're willing
                    to break CA laws from one county to another. Better to
                    get a taser. Safer, easier.
                    \_ Completely false.  A CCW permit is issued on a county
                       basis, but allows you to carry *anywhere* in the state.
                       \_ I think BART or AC Transit gets mad if you carry,
                          no matter what your permit says.
                       - ccw holder
                       \_ The trick is getting a CCW permit in a city
                          that is anti-gun.
                    Looks like S Cal residents are more gun-ho about CCW
              \_ Hey, how do you like it (92FS)?  I've found that it has a
                 tendency to jam and I find its lack of rails annoying 'cause
                 I can't mount a laser sight.
                 \_ I love the 92. I've never had a jam, and I've put about
                    4-5k rounds through it.  I always clean it after a shooting
                    session.  It's a bit heavy for daily carry.
                    \_  What sort of ammo do you use?  I always clean mine,
                        too. Did you have any problems with the first few
                        hundred rounds?  To be fair, it was outdoors and
                        blowing sandy grit when I was getting the jams.
                        \_ I use all FMJ or JHP.
                \_ I bought a Ruger today! -op
                \_ I bought a Ruger and a Glock today! -op
                   \_ Now I would like to get another gun for my car.
                      Any recommendations?  I am considering the Remington870P.
                      Any recommendations?  I was considering a tactical
                      Any recommendations?  I am considering a tactical
2008/5/23-31 [Recreation/Food, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:50045 Activity:nil
        URL says it all.
        \_ Ok?  Who cares?  What's your point?
           \_  S Koreans hate US beef
              \_ Dude, there are protests in Korea all the time.  There's
                 always a protest going on somewhere over something. Farmers
                 against lowering food tariffs is a pretty normal one. -jrleek
                 \_ Is US beef shipped to S Korea cheaper than local Korean
                    \_ Yes.  S. Korea has little aritable land and mostly
                       small family farms.
2008/5/6-9 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49891 Activity:nil
5/6     So much for the $1M-per-piece "mine-resistant" vehicle.
        \_ Armor piercing shells from Iran can do that ya know.
           \_ AP from Syria works fine, too, and those AP shells smuggled
              out of Afghanistan are da BOMB.
              \_ Out of Afghanistan?  No.  They're going _into_ Afghanistan
                 from Iran.  How do you figure they're going from Afghanistan
                 into Iraq?  *boggle*  Here's the key parts of the article the
                 OP didn't read (from their own link):

                 The military has praised the vehicles for saving hundreds of
                 lives, saying they could withstand the IEDs, or improvised
                 explosive devices, which have been the biggest killers of
                 Americans in Iraq . The Pentagon has set aside $5.4 billion
                 to acquire 4,000 MRAPs at more than $1 million each, making
                 the MRAP the Defense Department's third largest acquisition
                 program, behind missile defense and the Joint Strike Fighter.

                 But last Wednesday's attack has shown that the MRAPs are
                 vulnerable to an especially potent form of IED known as an
                 EFP, for explosively formed penetrator, which fires a
                 superheated cone of metal through the vehicle's armor.

                 Military officials are still trying to determine whether last
                 week's attack is a sign of "new vulnerabilities (in the
                 vehicle) or new (weapons) capabilities" on the part of
                 insurgents, said Navy Capt. John Kirby , a spokesman for Adm.
                 Michael Mullen , chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

                 U.S. officials don't know if the EFP that pierced the MRAP
                 was larger, redesigned or a lucky shot from an old one. But
                 explosive experts in Iraq are investigating, said Col. Jerry
                 O'Hare , a military spokesman in Iraq .

                 So maybe the vehicle is flawed.  Maybe the Iranians have
                 developed a new weapon.  Maybe it was a lucky shot.  OP is
                 pretty flip about it and fortunately not in a position to
                 make decisions in the military.
                 \_ Yeah I read the whole article before posting.  I was just
                    disappointed that some $1M-per-piece hyped hardware
                    deployed only a year ago is already showing its
                    shortcomings at the theatre that it's designed to operate.
                    deployed merely a year ago is already showing its
                    shortcomings at the theatre that it's meant to operate.
                    -- OP
                    \_ Shaped metal projectiles penetrate tanks that cost much
                       more than $1M.  Our tanks now have explosive armor that
                       detonates projectiles like this.  The response is that
                       newer projectiles are two-stage shells--the first stage
                       takes the blast from the explosive armor, the second
                       stage penetrates.  Welcome to the arms race.
                       \_ Tank = $1 million
                          IED = $1 thousand
                          \_ You're confused.  The armor was never about
                             protecting the tank.  It is there to protect the
                             guys inside.  If they didn't put armor on anything
                             they could put more/bigger weapons/go faster on
                             the vehicles but the soldiers would die from
                             stray bullets.  With armor it takes special
                             weapons to kill them which are not readily
                       \_ HEAT technology was invented in WWII.
           \_ Yeah, who could have possibly imagined that Iran might try to
              intervene into a US led occupation of Iraq?
              \_ Where's your 2001 post saying this?
                 \_ (Jan 2003)
2008/4/28-5/4 [Reference/Military] UID:49849 Activity:nil
4/28    Shot a .22 caliber gun before and it was very boring... no
        recoil whatsoever. Going to the range again, what's a good
        1-size up gun to try this time?
        \_ .38?
           \_ I thought 357 is one below 38?
              \_ No.
                 38 special and 9mm are often compared against each
                 other, whereas 357 is a different monster.
           Looks like .25 ACP has 1/5 the recoil of 0.30 Carbine. I guess
           caliber isn't a good indication of "easy to use"
        \_ Rifle or pistol? "This is my weapon, this is my gun. This
           is for shooting and this is for fun."
        \_ A 12 gague shotgun is very entertaining if you like recoil.
           Try with 3" shells too!
2008/4/1-6 [Reference/Military] UID:49628 Activity:nil
4/1     Hello Kitty as AR-15!
2008/3/28 [Reference/Military] UID:49587 Activity:moderate
3/28    "Dude!  I've totally just had this kick ass idea dude! <bong rip>
        After college, let's you and me be DEFENSE CONTRACTORS!  DUDE!
        \_ Only if you also have a 22-yr-old licensed male masseur as the VP,
           unless you're willing to perform all the dick massages to the
           Pentagon officials yourself in order to get your company into the
2008/3/16-17 [Reference/Military] UID:49470 Activity:moderate
3/16    new Air Force slogan is 'above all'.  old Germany slogan
        was 'above all'.
        \_ How about the "Air | Space | Cyberspace" stuff? Is the Air
           Force responsible for cyber defence now?
2008/3/12-13 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49438 Activity:nil
3/12    hey emarkp, if pre-emptive strike works so well, how come the
        israelis are still fighting? what's your stance on the iraq war now?
        \_ Hey anonymous troll, what's your stance on signing your
           posts? -ausman
        \_ Wow, talk about out of left field.  I have an email address.  Feel
           free to use it. -emarkp
2008/3/12-17 [Reference/Military] UID:49435 Activity:high
3/12    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are
        neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make
        things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they
        serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
        may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
        -Thomas Jefferson
        \_ Yawn.  And misattributed.
           \_ Right, Jefferson was quoting Cesare Beccaria
           \_ "The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize
              Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights
              of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who
              are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
              -Samuel Adams
        \_ Thomas Jefferson also owned hundreds of slaves, fathered several
           children with one of them, and then owned his own children as
           slaves.  So?  Times change, thankfully.  -tom
           \_ And maybe fathered several grandchildren with one of them?
           \_ revisionist liberal!!!
           \_ What ramifications does Wagner's anti-semitism have for his
              music, or Gogol's anti-semitism for his books?  Stupidest
              red herring ever. -- ilyas
              \_ The Declaration of Independence is a statement of moral
                 principles; I think the moral principles of the man who
                 wrote it are entirely relevant.  If Thomas Aquinas was
                        \_ Thomas Aquinas loved animals, not little boys,
                           isn't that right?
                 found to have been buggering altar boys, it would have an
                 impact on the value of his work.
                 Also, the underlying assumption is that because Thomas
                 Jefferson believed in individual gun ownership, that it's
                 a good idea today.  Thomas Jefferson also believed in
                 individual slave ownership; that doesn't make it a good
                 idea today.  -tom
                 \_ Thomas did some bad things, therefore all he did or said
                    was bad.  Is that your point?  Can we apply that
                    universally to all political figures or just ones who
                    wrote things you don't like?
                    \_ Nice straw man.  Please try reading my post next time.
                    \_ They weren't considered bad things at the time, that
                       is the whole point. Moral standards and society
                       change over time. The rules for gun ownership for
                       a frontier society are probably not going to make
                       sense in an urban society. This is why I support
                       local gun control laws only, btw.
                       \_ This is all tapdancing around the real issue, which
                          is that "we" don't want to give guns to hoods and
                          gangbangers, but do want to give them to hobbyists,
                          and normal law-abiding folks.  However, the
                          distinction is apparently very hard to legislate.
                          Plus I guess even pointing this out can get one
                          accused of racism since hoods and gangbangers are
                          predominantly ethnic. -- ilyas
                          \_ No, it is more subtle than that. It is not always
                             clear what a "normal law-abiding folk" is. What
                             about a guy with a DUI? Busted for smoking pot
                             20 years ago? And we already have laws on the
                             books to keep guns out of the hands of felons,
                             they are just really hard to enforce, when
                             everyone else can get a gun so easily.
                 \_ That doesn't make it a bad idea today either.
                    \_ I agree; what Thomas Jefferson had to say about
                       gun owernship 200+ years ago has pretty much no
                       relevance to whether it's a good idea today.  -tom
                       \_ Thomas Jefferson 200 years ago or tom today... hmmm,
                          this is a tough call... who to side with?  People
                          are still people, guns are still guns, etc.  I think
                          I'll go with Jefferson, thanks.  Simply saying time
                          has passed is not a reason to dismiss what he had
                          to say.
                       \_ Well, he gave an argument. He didn't just say,
                          "Gun ownership is good and I'm Jefferson." The only
                          real difference is that gun technology has advanced.
                          \_ Plus the small matter of the invention of the
                             tank.  Guns are significantly easier for
                             lawbreakers to use and significantly less
                             easy to use in defense against the government,
                             relative to Jefferson's time.  Orders of magnitude
                             different in each direction.   -tom
                             \_ The insurgents have shown that small arms
                                can be effective against an opposing force
                                with tanks, planes, &c.
                                \_ Only if you fight them with kid gloves on.
                                   \_ The operations in Iraq may not be "nuke
                                      & pave" but clearly kid gloves is not
                                      an accurate characterization.  It is
                                      likely that any domestic operation by
                                      the government would be similarly
                                      restrained (there are still red voters
                                      in blue states).
                                      Even if the operations in Iraq are being
                                      fought with "kid gloves," this was not
                                      the case in Vietnam.
                             \_ You are a complete fucking idiot if you think
                                you can use tanks against insurgency.  Tanks are
                                for breaking frontlines, holding territory
                                you can use tanks against insurgency.  Tanks
                                are for breaking frontlines, holding territory
                                against conventional armies, and defense a la
                                artillery.  You cannot use tanks to suppress
                                a civilian population.  Germans certainly didn't
                                artillery.  You cannot use tanks to suppress a
                                civilian population.  Germans certainly didn't
                                in World War 2 (and they pioneered appropriate
                                tank use in war).  You should probably stop
                                talking about things you don't have a clue
                                about.  A good modern example of a successful
                                uprising with guns vs tanks is israel vs
                                palestinians, btw. -- ilyas
                                palestinians, btw. -- ilyas  [formatd]
                                \_ "successful"?
                                   \_ The palestinians keep gaining land and
                                      somehow the sympathy of the world.  The
                                      Israelis are under constant siege and
                                      living in a permanent state of fear.  I'd
                                      say the palestinians are winning with the
                                      world's help.
                                      \_ what does that have to do with guns?
                                         \_ The point is asymmetric warfare
                                            against a government works, and the
                                            second point is that the
                                            palestinians would be toothless if
                                            they didn't have portable rockets,
                                            and bombs, and yes guns.  If you
                                            don't like this example, read up
                                            on the successful partisan movement
                                            in USSR during the second war.
                                                -- ilyas
                                            \_ Asymmetric warfare doesn't
                                               require individual gun
                                               \_ Asymmetric warfare is greatly
                                                  aided by individual gun
                                                  ownership, as the ff's
                                                  pointed out.  If you have an
                                                  "ideological" stance against
                                                  it, as tom likes to say, you
                                                  will need a better reason
                                                  than TANKS! though.  -- ilyas
                                \_ The Israelis are living in a constant state
                                   of fear? How do you think the Gazans feel?
                                   What has been the Gaza vs. Israel casualty
                                   \_ I'm not sure if this is more funny or
                                      sad that we have palestinian
                                      sympathizers on the motd.  I figured the
                                      motd would attract a smarter crowd in
                                      general who wouldn't fall for that sort
                                      of propaganda.  Anyway, I'll answer your
                                      question an old quote,
                                        "When Arab Mothers love their children
                                         more than they hate the Jews there
                                         will be peace".
                                      Ponder and gain wisdom.
                                      \_ That quote is racist.
                                         \_ Are you new here?  On the motd
                                            you're supposed to only say,
                                            "\_ RACIST!" as a form of
                                            anti-PC mockery.  It isn't a
                                            serious statement.  It is one of
                                            the lower forms of intellectual
                                            laziness.  Care to try again or
                                            are you happy thinking the only
                                            democracy in the middle east, the
                                            only country in the ME that has
                                            women voting, holding office, etc,
                                            the only country that has minority
                                            population voting and holding
                                            offfice, etc, etc, etc, is somehow
                                            the enemy while the people who
                                            wrap their kids in bomb jackets
                                            and send them into pizza parlors
                                            are somehow freedom fighters and
                                            heroic?  Again, it is sad that
                                            people who are supposed to be so
                                            smart have sucked up the propaganda
                                            like such useful idiots always do.
                                            \_ Your quote wasn't serious
                                               either and not worth addressing
                                               seriously. Of course it's
                                               racist, it's a blanket
                                               denigration of Arabs, and it
                                               implies that Palestinians commit
                                               commit acts of violence merely
                                               because they hate Jews and that
                                               is all there is to consider.
                                               If you are able to frame your
                                               argument in a meaningful way
                                               then I could respond more
                                               meaningfully. You're now
                                               ascribing beliefs to me that I
                                               didn't say. It's probably not
                                               worth having serious discussions
                                               with people who do that: set up
                                               straw men and employ vague
                                               emotional "reasoning".
                                               \_ There is nothing emotional
                                                  about it.  How about you
                                                  respond to what I said
                                                  about women, minorities and
                                                  the rest?  Those are cold
                                                  \_ What about them?
                                                  have facts yet in your reply
                                                  you toss around empty
                                                  accusations of emotionalism
                                                  because the truth is too
                                                  strong to deny so you go
                                                  personal.  Reply to what I
                                                  said.  You've said nothing
                                                  more than scream "RACIST!"
                                                  so far.  That isn't the
                                                  most intellectually rigorous
                                                  response from someone who
                                                  claims to want intellectual
                                                  rigor.  I can get better on
                            \_ In this particular quote, Jefferson did not
                               mention the anti-government aspect but only the
                               anti-criminal. I'd guess the main criminal aid
                               today is concealability. This factor would
                               argue towards a ban on handguns, not guns
                               altogether. (I'm not advocating that though.)
           \_ It is unclear that Jefferson actually fathered Sally Hemmings'
        \_ As an aside, I find the 'America was a frontier society in the old
           days but not today' argument amusing in a wishful thinking kind of
           way.  There is huge political resistance in America to outright
           handgun bans.  Clearly our society is 'frontier enough,' even today.
             -- ilyas
2008/3/3-6 [Reference/Military] UID:49323 Activity:nil
3/3     The Ray Gun
        Takes ~5sec to stop only one rioter.  How efficient for such an
        costly piece of machinery.  And why can't a rioter wear aluminum
        foil underneath the clothes?
        \_ When the Red Sox won the world series a few years ago,
           a woman was killed by being hit in the eye with a rubber
           bullet as police tried to control the "celebration" in
           Boston.  The ray gun won't kill people.
           \_ It also is a big bulky expensive humvee that is designed
              apparently for precision aiming from long distances. Not
              likely to be helpful in most situations.
              \_ Yes, the present prototypes are big, bulky, and
           \_ And, like tasers, they will gradually be seen as reasonable
              force and police will use them on people for giving them the
              respect they think they are due.
              \_ What if the rioters wrap themselves in cheap o' aluminum
                 \_ I'm not talking about rioters.  I'm talking about shit
                    like "Don't tase me bro" dude.
           \_ If the ray gun is pointed at the eye by chance like the rubber
              bullet gun was, will the person go half-blind and sue?
              \_ Only if you somehow manage to face into it and not blink
                 for an extended period of time.
           \_ Water cannon on firetrucks won't kill people either, and you
              don't need all that money to develop and manufacture it just for
              this purpose.
              \_ They have been known to cause permanent harm to people.
                 Being hit with a water cannon can be fatal, too, if you
                 get hit wrong.
2008/2/22-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:49220 Activity:nil
2/22    Bush Pentagon Office Of Public Affairs inserting itself into election
        \_ I'm shocked, shocked
        \_ libural URL alert! Don't believe it unless it's on FoxNews.
2008/1/20-23 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Reference/Military] UID:48976 Activity:nil
1/18    War on Terror: The Board Game
2008/1/7-11 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48898 Activity:nil
1/7     Whoops.  War with Iran is getting closer.
        \_ Someone set us up the bomb!
        \_ Yawn.  We shot down a friggin civilian airliner and didn't end up
           in a war.  Our guys and their guys are shooting each other on both
           sides of the land border.  We didn't get in a war.
2007/12/31-2008/1/7 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Sports] UID:48876 Activity:nil 70%like:48875
12/31   Soda comes up.  Cal football going down vs. Air Force.  Yay!
        Okay, the way the AF QB's knee bent was really fucked up.
        \_ We dominated.  Put Riley in there next year and we might
           have a shot at something.  It was seriously refreshing to see
           a quarterback who wasn't immobile with a terrible arm.
2007/12/31 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Sports] UID:48875 Activity:nil 70%like:48876
12/31   Soda comes up.  Cal football going down vs. Air Force.  Yay!
2007/12/21-29 [Reference/Military] UID:48852 Activity:nil
12/21   Is there a shooting range in N Cal where I could try out different
        machine guns like M16x, AK47 variants, and most importantly the
        super duper G36?
2007/11/21-27 [Recreation/Travel/LasVegas, Reference/Military] UID:48673 Activity:low
11/21   General Custard at the Last Stand were defeated by Indians
        who had ~200 rifles. How the hell did the injuns get their hands
        on the rifles?
           "...some of the Indians were armed with repeating Spencer,
            Winchester rifles and Henry rifles, while the 7th Cavalry
            carried single-shot Springfield Model 1873 carbines, caliber
            .45-70.[21] These rifles had a slower rate of fire than the
            aforementioned repeating rifles and tended to jam when
            overheated... rendering them useless in combat
            except as a club."
           Well, there ya go. Cheap rifles, probably made in CHINA, could
           have contributed to Custer's demise.
        \_ time traveling America hating liberals
           \_ nice.
              \_ I thought it was pretty good too.  Thanks.
        \_ Is this a troll?  They bought and traded for them, duh.
           \_ how many trinkets do they need to trade for a rifle?
              \_ Now THAT's a troll.
           \_ No it is NOT a troll. I'm watching the History Channel now.
              I'm not getting laid.                     -no laid guy #3
              \_ Don't you have a day job?  Or maybe you have the day
                 \_ I took the day off. I'm too depressed from not getting
                    laid. Please have some pity for me. BTW I find it
                    \_ Why are you not getting laid again?  I've forgot.
                       And what're you doing about it?
                    hilarious that they dug up all the remains of the
                    soldiers and had forensic artists mold the facial
                    bones so that we'd remember them, as well as putting
                    up nice tombstones at the hill... and they made
                    NO efforts to do the same for the Indians.
                    \_ Why are you not getting laid again?  I've forgot.
                       And what're you doing about it?
                       \_ I watch the History of Sex on the History Channel
                    \_ In 1878 the army awarded 24 Medals of Honor for
                       the Last Stand. Good job.
                    \_ Which "they" did the digging and facial molds?
                       \_ The state of Montana employees. Go figure.
                    \_ Maybe they didn't want to be disrespectful of the indian
              \_ The battle of Little Bighorn was in 1876!  Of course they
                 had rifles!
                 \_ The op indicates that the Indians somehow got their
                    hands on rifles
        \_ why does it even matter?  Many of the rifles of the time were less
            effective weapons than the indians skilled use of bows&arrows.
                    \_ Nah, really?
                       \_ I hear those Injuns have indoor plumbing these days.
                          \_ Ever been on a reservation?
                             \_ Yes, I swam in the pool at the hotel/casino and
                                my room had a jacuzzi tub with an LCD TV
                                mounted above it.
                                \_ Then the answer is no.  You haven't.  You
                                   think the average NA lives like that?  How
                                   about the ones who don't have casinos, which
                                   is most of them?  Next you'll be telling us
                                   how you met Bill Cosby so you think blacks
                                   in this country are all multi millionaires.
                                   \_ No, the answer is yes. I have. Simple
                                      question: "Have you been?". Simple
                                      answer: "Yes!" You cannot say "Oh,
                                      but you chose the wrong one! Pick again!"
                                      \_ Idiot.  The casino is not the
                                         reservation.  The answer is "no".  You
                                         have never been in a res house or met
                                         someone who does.  The casino part is
                                         no different than going to Vegas.
                                         That you would try to say you've been
                                         to a res when you've only been to the
                                         casino which is all dolled up for
                                         dumb white folks makes it really clear
                                         you have no clue.
                                         \_ Um, yes. The casino is on the
                                            reservation and you don't know
                                            anything about me. I have a
                                            friend who taught for many
                                            years on a reservation in
                                            Arizona and still lives on the
                                            reservation. Oh, but they
                                            don't have indoor plumbing. I
                                            forgot. You're the dumb one
                                            for thinking all tribes live
                                            in squalor and don't have
                                            indoor plumbing. Nice stereotype.
                                            \_ I see a few days off hasn't
                                               improved the motd average IQ.
                                               What will it take for you to
                                               figure out the average NA, even
                                               those with successful casinos,
                                               is not living the same life as
                                               the white folks staying at the
                                               casino hotel?  I love when
                                               racists use the "I have a xyz
                                               friend" line.
                                         \_ Ha ha.  You're an idiot.
                                            Equivelent conversation:
                                            Q. Have you ever been to Nevada?
                                            A. Yeah, I stayed at a hotel on the
                                               strip once.
                                            Q. Idiot! The answer is no then,
                                               isn't it?  You think all of
                                               Nevada is like Las Vegas?
                                               \_ Look, the peanut gallery
                                                  has put in 2 cents.  Stupid,
                                                  ignorant, and wrong, but at
                                                  least you made it!
2007/11/12-14 [Reference/Military] UID:48620 Activity:kinda low
11/12   How many deaths were attributed by Wernher von Braun? Hero for our
        Saturn V, or villain for his creation that killed civilians?
        \_ "Vonce ze rockets go up, who cares vhere zey come down? That's not
        \_ "Vonce ze rockets go up, who cares vhere zey come down? Zat's not
           my department," says Wernher von Braun.
        \_ How accountable should we hold the maker of a weapon for how
           it's used?
2007/11/9-14 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:48598 Activity:nil
11/9    AP IMPACT: New Army chopper overheats
        "The cost of an air conditioning unit per aircraft is about $98,000,"
        Gee, since these choppers are for disaster relief instead of combat,
        why don't they just paint it white or leave it unpainted as silver to
        reflect the heat away?
        \_ because you won't get that jack booted thug  look
2007/11/9-15 [Reference/Military, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/TJB] UID:48597 Activity:nil
11/9    sameer should join the army. aaron should join the army.
        tjb should join the army.
        \_ sameer already joined THE MARINES.  aaron is off visiting places
           that poorer people can't afford to.  dunno what happened to tjb.
           \_ I challenge you the concept of "expensive." Silicon Valley
              is already pretty expensive.
              \_ SV doesn't cost $2000/night.
           \_ Is Aaron doing an Asian Sex Tour, or something?
        \_ Aaron Smith does not want to fight. Aaron Smith wants Asian pussy.
        \_ Does anyone know where to find the tjb archives online?  I was
           looking for them recently, to no avail.  -niloc
           \_ Maybe someone felt bad about archiving the ranting of a guy
              who was actually insane.
2007/11/9-12 [Reference/Military] UID:48596 Activity:kinda low
11/9    HUMAN WEAPONS tonight. Russian army.    -not getting laid #3 guy
        \_ russians were weaky weecs
           \_ The History of Sex on the History Channel is really really
              pissing me off                    -not getting laid
              \- you may wish to take a class from TLACQUER
        \_ I didn't watch this episode, but I heard a few years ago that part
           of their training is to have someone continuously kick your stomach
           to train your muscles there.
           to train your muscles there.  Such training was uncovered because
           someone died from it.
           \_ Why did they think kicking your stomach going to help?  Wouldn't
              that just damage the muscle tissues and put other organs at
2007/11/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:48518 Activity:high
11/1    Human Weapons, Kung Fu, this Friday night. Don't miss it!!!
        \_ If the show is treating Kung Fu as a single discipline like Karate
           or Thai boxing, it's not worth watching.
           or Jujitsu, it's not worth watching.
           \_ What do you mean by discipline here?  It's not like there's only
              only style of Karate of Jujitsu either.
              only style of Karate or Jujitsu either.  Although, of course,
              Kung Fu is much more diverse than either of those.
        \_ Human Weapon has lost me ever since I was watching a few minutes
           and the wrestler in the pancreation ep. was saying he had to be
           careful or he might smash his opponent's nose, sending bone fragments
           into his brain, killing him.  that just doesn't happen.
           careful or he might smash his opponent's nose, sending bone
           fragments into his brain, killing him.  that just doesn't happen.
           \_ A wrestler said something stupid?  Say it ain't so!
2007/10/29-11/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48471 Activity:nil
2007/10/29-11/1 [Reference/Military] UID:48470 Activity:nil
        Look at all the sections and declarations. I guess atomic bomb
        is totally legal because they're not covered in the chemical and
        biological warfare sections. As for launching explosives from the
        air, I guess that is perfectly legal too since they're not launched
        from balloons.
        \_ If you're really interested in the Hague and the circumstances
           surrounding it, I recommend "The Proud Tower" by Barbara Tuchman
           which has a large chapter on both conferences.  Basically, none
           of the participants were truly interested in the outcome, and
           the conference was originally called as a ploy by the Russian
           foreign minister.
2007/10/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:48372 Activity:kinda low
10/18   Air Force to blame Cheney's attempt to execute Wing Attack Plan R
        on underlings
        \_ german shepherd don't fly.
2007/10/10-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48283 Activity:nil
10/10   Pelosi vs. the anti-war activists
2007/9/24-27 [Reference/Military] UID:48176 Activity:kinda low
9/24    Does there exist a thing as missile-to-missile intercepter?
        \_ What, do you mean like the Patriot?  Or do you mean a missile
           carried on a missile to take out a Patriot?
           \_ Sorry I didn't make it clear. I mean an air-to-air anti-
              missile missle. You know, like what they do in Robotech
              where they shoot out 32 missiles at a time and they counter
              with 32 other missiles in space.
           \_ Uh, that does not exist. ICBM's deploy flak, multiple reentry
              vehicles, and decoys, but not active countermeasures. Not very effective
              to try and hit a bullet with a bullet launched from a bullet,
              when they're already trying to hit a bullet with a bullet.
              \_ No, it's much more effective to confuse and outmaneuvre when you can.
2007/9/18-22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48105 Activity:nil
        Iraq: 3783 deaths, 27,848 wounded.
        Question: How much does it cost for each death (payment for burial,
        family, ceremoney, etc) vs. treat for the wounded (doctor's
        bills, shrinks, compensation packages, etc)?
        \_ Are you trying to make the case that we should let the wounded
           die because it is cheaper?
2007/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:48059 Activity:nil
9/12    CLEANSE.
                 \_ Sure, you can counteract the effects if you actually have
                    the time and discipline to do so, but how many have that?
                    Are you familiar with the studies correlating miles
                    driven with heart disease and obesity?
        \_ Where do you live?  In some counties you can get a CCW without too
           much trouble.
           \_ What is CCW?
              \_ Carry Concealed Weapon.
2007/9/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley, Reference/Military] UID:48045 Activity:moderate
9/13    I don't know if any students still read this, but I know some
        staff does. Be careful out there:
        (Crime wave targeting Cal students) -ausman
        \_ Thanks ausmas, this is one of the reasons that I want to get
           a taser.                                     -taser below
           \_ The reasons so many muggings involve people getting beat up
              first is if a group of people run up to you and hit you hard
              99% of the people's reaction is to be stunned for a bit.
              Stunned and on the ground most likely.  Which gives someone
              plenty of time to grab your stuff and run off.  Muggings aren't
              fights, if done right you don't have any warning.
              \_ Yeah and if there are >1 muggers, your taser isn't really
                 going to help you. Just avoid black people.
              \_ yes. train in handling a gun and it'll be second nature to not
                 be stunned and gun down 2 or more muggers
                 \_ And the you'll wake up.
        \_ Wow, that celaya is a bit of a dolt.  Can we get a brighter Asst.
           chief please?  "one off the street, and another one fills his shoes."
           It's not like there are limited spots.
2007/9/11-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48015 Activity:kinda low
9/11    The War On Terror is like herpes.  Not going away ever.
        \_ Ridiculous. The WoT is a fiction, like the War on Drugs. Once
           people wake up to the idea that you can be alert and not paranoid,
           this "War" will implode.
           \_ Nah, too many GOP donors are sucking on the public teat to
              ever let a moneymaker like WoT ever go away entirely. Just
              like the idiotic "war on drugs" the people raking in public
              dough will drag it out indefinitely.
        \_ Heh, a troll op followed by a trollicious reply which hooked
           another troll.  You earned the Triple Troll Whammy Award!
           \_ And you of course, are not a troll, so no T4 award...
              \_ No, I'm commenting on the trolliciousness of the whole thing
                 which makes you and me meta-trolls.  If I were commenting on
                 a baseball game that does not make me a baseball player.
2007/8/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:47764 Activity:low
8/26    HUMAN WEAPON is totally awesome
        \_ I like the slow-mo CGI models so you can really see what's going
           on.  Nice touch.
           \_ I am totally going to go past the guard and rotate his
              shoulder throw down and punch him in the throat the next
              barfight i get into.
              \_ Worked for me, hope it works out for you, too.  I also watch
                 Dogfights and Ice Road Truckers which means I can now fly a
                 fighter from any era and drive an over loaded 18 wheeler over
                 32" of ice at 40 below.  Ok, no, wait, I can't.  It is just
                 TV and fun to watch, just like HW.
        \_ Seconded. The eskrima episode broke my brane.
2007/8/11-15 [Reference/Military] UID:47586 Activity:nil
8/11    Maybe the gun nuts are right? (
        \_ [pointless off topic rude stupid troll purged]
        \_ I actually agree with the gun nuts, but that article is poor.
        \_ You just wasted 30 seconds of my time. "What if... what if..."
           This article is almost as informative and entertaining as
           Ayn Rand's crap.
           \_ The article is poorly written but it is not "What if...".  It
              attempts (poorly) to argue that since criminals already have
              guns maybe non-criminal citizens should carry them (and use
              them), too, since the government is doing a crap job of
              protecting citizens from violent repeat offenders.
2007/7/27 [Reference/Military] UID:47444 Activity:moderate
7/27    Sikhs are actually pretty bad ass radicals
        \_ Of course.  Don't you see them wearing turbans?
2007/7/12-16 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:47272 Activity:moderate
7/12    Southern Hopitality-toddler booted from plane for saying "bye bye plane"
        \_ some people just can't control their their fucking kids anymore.
           \_ yes but in this case the kid had repeated the phrase only a few
              times and the flight attendant was a rude unprofessional bitch.
              \_ Okay, I re-read the article. When did flight attendants
                 become total bitches? Since when does a stewardess have the
                 authority to order a plane back to kick off a couple of
                 passengers? Isn't it pretty expensive to turn a plane around
                 land, taxi, and take off again? Why did the pilot agree to do
                 this? The story sounds fishy.
                 \_ They were still taxiing, that said, it's still odd enough
                    to be fishy.
                 \_ She falsely claimed that the woman had threatened her and
                    the pilot turned around based on that.
                    \_ You don't think there's any chance the woman
                       became super upset mom and threatened that flight
                       \_ No.  There were witnesses.
                    \_ Okay, I finally watched the WSBTV video. The story is
                       a lot less fishy now. All I can say is, somebody's ass
                       is grass.
2007/6/30-7/4 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Media] UID:47139 Activity:low
6/29    MMC - Live Free, Die Hard, is it really as good as the original?
        "That was some loco shit

        gruesome deaths, helicopters strafing, outrunning fireballs,
        hanging over great heights, jumping on moving objects, jumping
        off moving objects, shooting things to make them explode, head
        butting, speaking ill of the dead, helicopters flying in formation,
        PG-13 profanity, machine guns, a command center where people
        explain the plot, a Joint Strike Fighter piloted by the most
        bloodthirsty maniac in the Air Force, collapsing freeways,
        parkour, annoying meta references to the first three films,
        lots of broken glass, elevator shaft fu, and car crashes.
        Oh, the crashes. There are enough car crashes in Live Free or
        Die Hard to fill ten normal movies.

        Understand: I am not saying it is a good movie, but darn it,
        I kinda liked it."
        \_ I saw it.  It was ok, nothing special.  I won't remember it in
           6 months.  The earlier ones were better, especially the one at
           the 'Nakatomi Tower'.  Running over glass in bare feet?  Hard to
           top that.
        \_ I saw it and hated it. The antagonist is a computer hacker who
           manages to hack into everything from tunnel lighting systems to
           closed circuit dormitory elevator surveilance cameras. Maggie Q
           is hot, though. But the annoying I'm-a-Mac guy cancels her out.
           is hot, but the annoying I'm-a-Mac guy cancels her out.
           \_ It's called "suspension of disbelief".  Are you a star trek fan?
              You're ok with warp speed but not a computer hacker?  The movie
              still sucked but not because it was a computer terrorist.
2007/6/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:47083 Activity:low
6/27    German artillery!!! German artillery is the best!
        \_ Actually South Africa has the best artillery, if you restrict
           it to cannon-type artillery and don't extend the definition
           to include rockets.
           \_ South African has the world's largest arsenal of HIV.
           \_ South Africa has the world's largest arsenal of HIV.
              \_ RACIST!
                 \_ "HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate: 21.5% (2003 est.)"
                    Maybe not the largest, but certainly the largest per
2007/6/25-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47059 Activity:high
6/25    Why do we keep hearing about how we're fighting "Al Qaeda" in Iraq?
        My understanding is that there are at least three competing groups of
        Sunni guerillas: "Al Qaeda in Iraq," Salafi Jihadists, and ex-Baathists.
        At any given time, it seems that these three different groups are
        referred to as "Al Qaeda."
        \_ You want to read my man Juan Cole:
        \_ We are fighting Al-Queda probably 2 percent of the time.  The\
           rest of them are virulent american hating <IRAQI FACTION
        \_ We are fighting Al-Queda probably 2 percent of the time.  The
           rest of them are virulent american hating <IRAQI FACTION
        \_ This is what the Sunnis and Shiites should do
           \_ What, get breast implants?
           \_ Hot!
        \_ Two reasons: 1) The American public is lazy and bored with the war
           and wants it made simple for them. 2) The Bush Administration has
           deliberately spread falsehoods about the operation from the start.
           Why would they stop now?
        \_ We're fighting them there so that we don't have to fight them
           here! God bless.
           \_ This reminds of the Vietnam-era helicopter gunner who was asked
              how he could shoot women and children. He replied, "It's easy,
              you just don't lead them as much."
              \_ That was a line from a fucking movie dude.
                 \_ Based on an actual line as quoted by a correspondent.
                    See "Dispatches" by Michael Herr.
                    \- I thought In Pharaoh's Army was a better VN book.
                    \- I thought IN PHARAOH'S ARMY was a better VN book.
                       \_ A different experience written for different
                          reasons. I thought that IPA's description of life on
                          a boat was scarier than the description of VN.
              \_ Sidenote: Does a gunner actually need to lead when shooting a
                 human being?  Bullets from mounted guns travel much much
                 faster than human can run.  It's not like when a figher plane
                 shoots at another figher plane.
                 \_ I guess it would depend on how close the gunner was to
                    the target.
2007/6/7-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46874 Activity:nil
6/6     Wait, how is Bush so dumb that he's managing to help bring the
        BLOODY COLD WAR BACK!  Like we need this now...
        \- this has been going on for a long time. YMWTFG "bush, stephen
           cohen, russia, cold war). also bush is probably stupid enough he
           actually may thing ABM might work ... it's just a matter of
           ironing out some engineering problems, as opposed to cynically
           supporting it for pork-type reasons.
        \_ Cold War was a good war.
        \_ Russia is in no position to "bring the BLOODY COLD WAR BACK!".  You
           know YELLING IN ALL CAPS! doesn't make your point stronger, right?
           Russia's economy is slightly smaller than Mexico's at last count.
           Their military is a wreck, most of their brighter scientists moved
           to Western countries.  Putin is making the mandatory noises to keep
           his generals and ultra-right nationalists happy, nothing more.
           \_ Ohh, believe me, Russia can REALLY screw up the world if it
              choose to... buy simpley selling their weapon to people in Iraq,
              for example.
           \_ My question of the day is... where do we get all these money
              from?   Aren't we suppose to allocate resources to fight a war?
2007/6/4 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Dating] UID:46849 Activity:insanely high
6/4     NWSW Chick with a big gun
        \_ Who wants to see a chick with lopsided guns?
2007/5/15-17 [Reference/Military, Reference/History/WW2] UID:46651 Activity:nil
5/15    300 means more tourist business in Sparta:
        \- i thought that article was hilarious. i especially liked the
           "i suspect a band of gypsies".
2007/5/15-17 [Reference/Military] UID:46648 Activity:moderate
5/15    What's the difference between US Marines and US Army?
        \_ US Marines: We are elite peacekeepers.
           US Army: Suckers!!!
        \_ Marines are a division of the Navy.  You send in your
           small Marines strike force to pacify the locals and make
           a beachhead for your larger occupying force, US Army,
           to take over eventually.  Of course since all we do now
           is fight guerilla wars (poorly) now all of this goes out
           the window.
           \_ So why isn't the US Army involved in Iraq? Everytime I
              turn on the TV I see Marines getting injured.
                   \- it's very hard for me not to say something more
                      cutting but ...
                      us army has more deaths in iraq than all other
                      service branches put together. possibly about 2x
                      all other services combined. although marines
                      have been killed in higher proportion.
                      it's kinda of disturbing how many people like you
                      blithly believe things so far off the mark and
                      ostensibly can vote, opine about matters of
                      public policy etc. why dont you watch the NEWS HOUR
                      WITH LEHERER. at the end of every show they have an
                      "honor roll" they show a name/rank/picture/hometown/
                      service of people killed in iraq. this kind of ignorance
                      is why these kind of "gestures", or showing photographs
                      of the coffins coming back arent just PR stunts.
                      \- see also:
                         [i dont remember if we talked about this before
                         but there is some interesting stuff when you look
                         at say the geographic distribution of deaths,
                         the racial composition of death in vietnam etc.
                         sometimes reenforces what you think, other times
                         not what you expect.]
              \_ Now you have a little more insight into why we are totally
                 screwed in Iraq.  Marines are trained to attack quickly,
                 secure the area, then get the hell out.  We're using
                 Marine units long term in areas where no one knows the
                 difference between friend and foe, if there is a difference.
                 We should have highly trained units familiar with the
                 last 50 years of pain in the area, plus Arabic.  We also
                 need magical fucking fairy dust.  We're asking our young
                 Marines to... I dunno.  Pacify the area?  Shoot everyone?
                 Keep it safe?  Every time they kick ass, the left
                 screams bloody murder, and the right screams look they
                 are fighting terrorists, when they're completely full of shit.
                 Marines need a set goal, like 'take that building' or
                 'shoot that bad guy', they are not miracle workers who can
                 bring democracy to Iraq.  I read the paper and I see
                 men and women from the Air Force, Army, Marines, Navy
                 and national guard in the death rolls.  Must suck to be
                 in the Navy and you're sent to land to guard cargo
                 and you get shot.
                 \_ The big lie of our all-volunteer force is that there
                    is any circumstance under which being in the military
                    doesn't "suck."  Americans don't like the concept of
                    national service, so we've sold our military as a
                    "career choice" like any other.  But it's not.  You
                    may die, you more than likely may be maimed beyond
                    comprehension, you may be psychologically scarred for
                    life, and you will likely be ordered to do things that
                    are against your moral code or your better judgement.
                    That's war.  The glamor that surrounds the military is a
                    big load of crap, and I speak as someone who is a general
                    supporter of the military (although not what our current
                    administration has chosen to do with it in Iraq).  It
                    really is a shame what is happening to our boys (and girls)
                    out there, but remember that they chose to put themselves
                    \_ See
                       While the article focuses on turning the Y-generation
                       into soldiers, the point I take away is that some have
                       the physical and mental stamina to be warriors, and some
                       don't. We want those who are willing and able, to fight
                       for us. There still is and will always be great honor in
                       defending America, and those who feel the truth of that
                       will step up to the plate. When the stain on our
                       national honor known as the Bush Administration is gone,
                       the faith in our civilian leadership to use the military
                       effectively and with integrity will be restored, and the
                       those who have been staying away because of the
                       stupidity of this admin will volunteer. Standards will
                       rise again and we will have the best military in the
                       world once again, with an all volunteer force that is
                       willing and able to fight for our freedom
                       \_ Ah, but what about when the next gang of idiots
                          takes over?  c.f. the current crop of candidates.
                          \_ We seem to bungle a war every 20-30 years, so look
                             for the next SNAFU around 2030.
                \_ I agree military service sucks.  I stil don't think our
                   Marines or Army are able to fight a guerilla war.  What do
                   you think?  Your 'sucking' point does not deal with anything
                   I wrote above.  I know it's going to suck.  They know it's
                   going to suck.  I want my military in situations where there
                   is a definite goal or as they say "VICTORY OVER TERRORISTS
                   IN IRAQ".  I don't see it.
           \_ Marines aren't a division of Navy.  They are two separate
              branches of the military.  And there are plenty of army units
              in Iraq.
              \_ The United States Marine Corps is part of the Department
                 of the Navy.  Don't take my word for it:
                 \_ Hence "Marine" (also see: "dict usmc")
        \_ I thought after Vietnam War, C.Powell and others transformed US
           military to a "FIGHTING" force (instead of an "occupying" force).
           The reality is that US commander-in-chief think we can fight
           cheaply (~50 billion USD) and quickly.  The bigger question is,
           1. should we try our Commander-in-chief for treason?  2. after
           6 years of blank check, should we just cut our losses and get the
           hell out and spend next 30 years trying to repaire our reputation
           abroad?  or 3. should we continue this shit, without input from
           Iraq's neighbors, and continue pour resources in it?
        \_ From what I remember a friend whose dad and brother were in the
           Navy told me, the original job of the Marines was to secure beaches.
           To do so, they would usually get transported by the Navy (a joke was
           that MARINE stands for My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment). Once a beach
           head was secured, the Army would then take over. It doesn't seem
           like this is the case anymore.
        \_ I still think we should let the Iraqis put to vote on whether
           the foreign troups should stay or go.   If they genuinely want us
           to leave, they can vote us out, and we go and declare a victory for
2007/5/15-17 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46638 Activity:nil
5/15    Iraqi army shows you how to hold an assault rifle (
        \_ Almost as good as Zarqawi using the machine gun.
        \_ Our marines hold assault rifles that way as well in some
           situations.  Like close quarter combat, I believe.
        \_ Since when are assault rifles belt fed?  2/3 of those
            pictures show 'machine guns'
2007/4/25-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Reference/Military] UID:46452 Activity:kinda low
4/25    What the Marines really think about kids in Afghanistan
        \_ I don't think this is a big deal.  Grunts in the Marines
           will not be Ivy League educated investment bankers.
           As long as they don't give into institutionalizing torture
           on advice from the CIA, I'm ok with them.
        \_ That first guy is a spitting image of Pvt Pyle from Full Metal
        \_ I guess some of the friendly-fire accidents are meant for good.
        \_ I was expecting worse -- things involving child sex abuse.  Maybe it
           was edited out.
           \_ These guys are US Marines, they don't work for the UN.  It's
              the UN troops who are engaged in the sex trade and child abuse.
              You're looking at a bunch of jar heads doing what soldiers have
              done since the dawn of time: bitching about marching, bitching
              about the weather, bitching about the people, just plain
              bitching because they have nothing else to do.  The only thing
              in the entire video that looked like a problem at all was the
              two guys playing air guitar with what looked like live weapons.
              Seriously, what did you all expect?  They'd be planting flowers,
              waving flags, and giving speeches on how nice it is to inter-
              mingle with foreign cultures to expand their horizons?  Get real.
              Guys like them are around so guys like you can sit at home and
              bitch about them in safety.  And in case you missed the point,
              I'll repeat it: if you're looking for real scumbags you'll find
              them working for the UN.  It's documented and large scale.  The
              few cases where American soldiers have gone bad are very few and
              they got jailed for it.  At the UN they condone it.
              \_ Standard dittohead response: when threatenend, bluster loudly
                 with authority on one of your talking points.
                 \_ Personal attack?  Maybe next time you'll bring something
                    to the table.  Thanks for playing.
                    \_ that's attacking the response, not the person.
                       \_ I don't think the person who wrote "Standard
                          dittohead response" even saw the video so he was
                          unable to do anything but attack the messenger.
                          If he'd seen the video he might have had a counter
                          which actually referenced something in the video
                          showing how evil the US Marines are.  But he didn't.
                          You want real thugs and criminals?  Check out the UN.
                          \_ Once again you change the subject.  This is
                             a video made BY THE MARINES, not by Amnesty
                             International or anyone who would be looking
                             for malfeasance.
              \_ This is an awfully long way of saying WDYHA.
        \_ Pretty much this is what you always see when you're in a poor
2007/4/24-25 [Reference/Military] UID:46426 Activity:moderate
4/23    For you guys who think we need guns to check government power, where
        do you draw the line? Is there a line for you, or should all small arms
        be legal for private ownership?
        \_ Define "small arms"
           \_ Yeah, I think recoiless rifles should be legit.
           \_ 50 caliber or smaller
           \_ Well, it seems to me that stuff like an MP5 with integral
              suppressor would be quite useful for the covert ops needed
              when trying to fight against superior federal forces. Same
              with full-auto guns and stuff with "assault" features.
        \_ Phased-plasma rifle in the forty watt range
           \_ So is a 39 watt plasma rifle ok?  you bastard!
        \_ only way to check on government power is to allow average citizens
           to own nuclear bombs.  And no, I still don't see the relationship
           between 2nd Amenment and *HAND GUNS*.  Why can't we ban all
           hand guns, but keep rifles and shutguns?  Why hand gun advocates
           never complain about our ban on grunade, rocket launchers, and
           artillery is beyond me.
2007/4/23-25 [Reference/Military] UID:46419 Activity:low
4/23 (
        An Accounting of Daily Gun Deaths.
        \_ I'm sure this would have been avoided if banned all guns.
           It worked in the Soviet Union, it works in China, North Korea,
           Cuba, and Vietnam
           \_ interesting that more than half (45 out of 81) are suicides
             \_ There are a heck of a lot of suicides by jumping in South
                 Korea.  All those 25 story apartment buildings...
           \_ It worked in Japan.
              \_ Yes, along with stripping and restructing their entire country
                 and culture from the ground up after nuking them into
                 submission.  Is that what you suggest?
                 \_ Actually, gun control was in place long before WW2.
        \_ why you are not complaining about ban on automatic rifles?
           anti-aircraft gun that can be use to take out escaping vehicles?
           how about cheap cruise missle made by the Chinese?  Why there is
           a ban on these weapons?  I mean, if we want a free society, we
           should have the right to buy anything we can afford, right?
2007/4/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:46410 Activity:moderate
4/22    Blue Angle crashed, setting homes and vehicles on fire.
        Glad that it didn't crash in SF.  What's the point of maintaining an
        expensive team and performing these stunts in populated areas
        endangering people on the ground?
           Recruitment, pride, morale, feeling of security, and tradition.
           Similar to why the Red army of 1 million marching down
           Red Square.
        \_ Jingoism.
           \_ As opposed to the full military? I'm glad you think so.
              With citizens like these, who needs enemies?
        \_ The mission of the Blue Angels is to serve as a recruiting tool.
           Every time they put on a show, there are some people in the crowd
           who think "wow, I want to be a fighter pilot".  That's the point.
           \_ And here I thought that the mission of the Blue Angels was a
              yearly "show of force" to any punk that might be getting ideas.
           \_ Is it cost-effective?  How many actually join the air-force
              successfully because of Blue Angel?  Thanks.
              \_ I don't know and am not going to hazard a guess.  This is
                 their mission, which they're quite open about (it's right
                 there on their web site).  I was merely answering the question,
                 not the implied criticism.  By the way, the Blue Angels are
                 part of the Navy, not the Air Force.
        \_ You all forgot the part where you say, "RIP" for the dead Blue
           Angel and a moment of thought for the 8 people injured on the
           ground before you dove in to attacking the wasteful recruiting
           policies of the BUSHCO military/industrial complex/HALLIBURTON!
           \_ Blue Angels started under a Democrat admin, and continued
              with the full support of many Demo admins. The last Navy man
              in office was Carter.
              \_ We all knew that. If the Republicans started it, it would
                 have been called the Red Angels.
              \_ Don't tell *me* that.  Tell it to the we-hate-the-blue-angels
                 they're-such-a-waste types above.  -RIP guy
2007/4/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:46409 Activity:nil
4/21    the Gun debate will be settled in the SCOTUS
        \_ The Supreme Court will only decide on what they think the
           comma means; they won't decide on whether it's a good idea or
           not.  -tom
        \_ ^will^may^ - Review by the USSC is discretionary. The above
           is also somewhat inaccurate b/c a split existed before the
           D.C. Cir. weighed in - the 9th and 5th have had opposing
           views for several years. Also the D.C. Cir.'s opinion only
           address Congressional regulation not State regulation. It
           is conceivable that different rights/rules apply (e.g. 7th
2007/4/21-25 [Reference/Military] UID:46406 Activity:nil
4/21    I'm in the middle of reading Max Brooks' World War Z, and while I am,
        in this real world that we live in, a believer in gun control (and
        even, given the right circumstances, gun elimination), this book makes
        me want to purchase and secure a reasonable firearm and ammo. Just
        \_ ob "I was just in the middle of reading mein kampf, and ..."
           \_ "...and this book makes me want to purchase a firearm and
               shoot a bunch of nazis"? 'Cos that's what I'm getting here.
2007/4/20-24 [Reference/Military] UID:46399 Activity:moderate
4/21    from all these postings on gun control.
        I agree that only 1 group of psychos who can't control
        themselves should not be allowed to own guns .. that group is..
        Critical Mass ... they are psychos..
        I think that's why some bicyclist on here are for gun control
        because they are psychos in themselves and can't control
        themselves, yet at the same time are elitist ... - duck
        \_ Lot of vested interest in keeping the gun lobby .both pro
           and cons say i have a middle instead of licensing/regulating
           why t we license bullets on a very strict basis, guns without
           bullets are a piece of metal, if we can regulate bullets, say
           one bullet only per gun only, wont that be a good control, gun
           makers , NRA will be happy, while killing will come down as
           bullets will be in short ..just a thought
           \_ ARMS = GUN + AMMO (BULLETS)
              \_ I am yet to hear a pro-gun argument that makes sense
                 except its fun (for deer hunters & man-child navy
                 seal worshippers) and its allowed by the
                 constitution. Anybody who thinks that an army
                 that breaches US defenses can be held back by the
                 militia must be watching too much of Military Raj and
                 Independence Day sort of movies.In the book
                 Freakonomics, the author argues that swimming pools
                 are more fatal than guns, drowning accidents being
                 more common statistically. Fair enough, but the key
                 difference I think is that it is difficult to drown
                 39 other people along with yourself.I am sure
                 mountaineering would be even more fatal but that is
                 hardly the issue, for the same reason of zero impact
                 on those who do not take the plunge. On the issue of
                 the sting of others having it better, unfortunately
                 it is part of the mental makeup of most people. We do
                 know of certain doctrines whose mass appeal kind of
                 rests on this instinct to pull down others rather
                 than uplift oneself. Mobs are built out of negative
                 energies and not positive intent. No one can be as
                 blind and devastating as a self righteous man as he
                 sees no wrong in his actions, has a unipolar
                 worldview and has taken uncertainty out of his life.
                 At least in the US this s views are treated as an
                 absurdity. In certain other countries, if this guy
                 reigns himself back a little bit, he can go
                 mainstream with his views if not his actions.
                 (Who????????????) that breaches US defenses can be
                 held back by the militia must be watching too much of
                 Military Raj and Independence Day sort of movies.In
                 the book Freakonomics, the author argues that
                 swimming pools are more fatal than guns ,drowning
                 accidents being more common statistically. Fair
                 enough, but the key difference I think is that it is
                 difficult to drown 39 other people along with
                 yourself.I am sure mountaineering would be even more
                 fatal but that is hardly the issue, for the same
                 reason of zero impact on those who do not take the
                 plunge. On the issue of the sting of others having it
                 better, unfortunately it is part of the mental makeup
                 of most people. We do know of certain doctrines whose
                 mass appeal kind of rests on this instinct to pull
                 down others rather than uplift oneself. Mobs are
                 built out of negative energies and not positive
                 intent. No one can be as blind and devastating as a
                 self righteous man as he sees no wrong in his
                 actions, has a unipolar worldview and has taken
                 uncertainty out of his life.

At least in the US this s views are treated as an absurdity. In
certain other countries, if this guy reigns himself back a little bit,
he can go mainstream with his views if not his
                 \_ No wonder people think that Stanford is better
                 \_ gungrabbers should look in the mirror
                    \_ "You talkin' to ME?"
                 \_ Militias are very powerful. Look at Iraq and Vietnam.
                    One not only has to conquer a country, but occupy it.
                    However, the primary entity you are protecting
                    yourself from is the US government. It is a powerful
                    deterrent to, say, a military coup when a substantial
                    portion of law abiding citizens own a weapon. I am
                    in favor of controls on handguns, but not rifles.
                    It is much harder to conceal a rifle.
                    \- are you referring to the NVA as a "militia"?
                       what does that make say al queda? a club?
                       \_ The Viet Cong. Al Qaeda is a terrorist
                          organization, but the Iraqi insurgency is
                          very much made up of former military organized
                          militia-style. Same with Afghanistan for that
                    \_ Militias are most powerful in the face of an absence
                       of a militarily strong, unified, and at least apparently
                       legitimate central government. When the central gov.
                       has a strong military and local/national support,
                       militias are usually either dispersed or marginalized to
                       the point of non-effectiveness. (Cf. Ruby Ridge, Waco.)
                       In Iraq, a lot of the same groups that get lumped in
                       with the insurgency spend a lot of time maintaining
                       order within their own local areas or repelling attacks
                       from other militias; there are a lot of folks more
                       divided by tribal affiliations than religious factions.
                       Also see:
2007/4/20-24 [Reference/Military] UID:46388 Activity:nil
4/20    Bad numbers on both sides of the gun debate. -emarkp
        \_ Hey, great, we have a lower gun death rate than El Salvador and
           Albania!  Good thing we have all those guns for self-defense! -tom
           \_ I think a more informative way to look at gun deaths in the US
              is to treat suburbs, for instance, differently from gang-infested
              inner cities.  Generally if you leave the inner cities, gun rates
              in the US are comparable to Europe.  It is true that gangs and
              inner cities are a big problem in the states, but I don't think
              the cultural issues involve are mainly (or at all) caused by guns.
           \_ If only we could live in a soft-gloved police state like the UK
              all would be well!
              \_ Woo Hoo!  USA!  USA!  USA!  New national slogan: "It's better
                 than civil war"  -tom
2007/4/20-24 [Reference/Military] UID:46385 Activity:moderate
4/20    Penn & Teller on 2nd Amendment
        \_ Glenn Beck will be talking about gun control tonight on HNN, and
           Penn will be on.
        \_ Its a cute argument and fairly well presented, but every gun
           control advocate would argue that taking guns away from everyone
           will decrease gun posession percentage all around.  They say that
           criminals will get guns regardless, while that may be true, making
           supply illegal would severely limit the availibility. One could see
           parallels between this and drug laws.  Making supply (of any sort)
           illegal makes prosecution and enforcement much easier.  Not that
           I support all drug policy, just using its effects as an example.
           \_ I'm sorry but the right to bear arms was not penned to
              wage war against furry creatures, it was to defend the
              person against militia men and any standing army (foreign
              and domestic)
              \_ And you feel that having a handgun will protect you against
                 a tank, cruise missles, and f14 planes?  You have no ability
                 to protect yourself against a military.  If thats really
                 what you want you should be lobbying for the ability for
                 citizens to purchase tanks (should they have the money).  A
                 citizen militia is never going to face a modern army.-mrauser
                 \_ no. but those soldiers wont be coming back home to loved
                    ones. it's not like the army would be fighting a war
                    in a foriegn country.. they have to come back and live
                    with the people they killed..
                    ... so the best resistance is destroy the homes and
                    business of those in the military trying to destroy our
                    freedom. If they use F15s , tanks they run the risk
                    of killing their own family members..
                    \_ it's much more likely that you'd have more localized
                       conflict (more like the Civil War) where this would
                       not be much of an issue for the fed military. A bunch
                       of yahoos with civilian guns is pretty much going to
                       get "pwned", even by just normal infantry. A terrorist
                       campaign is also not going to have much effect; by
                       nature it would be limited in scope and lose the
                       propaganda war. Either the gov't wins or you get some
                       form of anarchy. In any case it's unclear that handguns
                       are needed for this.
                       \_ the gov't loses and the US Constitution will be
                        restored (i guess libs call that anarchy)
                        There is no propaganda war to win.. it would be
                        a fight for freedom...
                        \_ Hahahahahahaha. Everyone loved that guy who
                           bombed the OK building right?
                       \_ Tell the Iraqis this.
                          \_ Why?
                       \_ how many Millions died in the civil war?
                        Besides , this time the south will be on the side
                        of the Pro gunners because they love their guns
                          \_ What?
                 \_ THat's what the redcoats thought.  Of course, no one in a
                    tank would ever sympathize with a revolutionary.
                    \_ And there again is a fine argument for not bothering to
                       let the citizenry own guns.
                        \_ perhaps u prefer to stand next to a ditch and
                         get gunned down? Wait a minute!! you want to be
                         the one that guns down pro gunners and conservatives!
                         that's what this is all really about...
                         only way liberals can win is to take away all the
                         guns.. get control of the army and then kill off
                         all the conservatives... that's your plan.. we know..
                 \_ the 2nd amendment describes the state govt fighting against
                    the federal government.  i concede the federal government
                    probably has control of launch codes and can nuke a state,
                    but i feel stupid for participating in this discussion.
              \_ I think everyone should be allowed to have a gun as long
                 as they regularily fire it against representatives of
                 the goverment.
2007/4/20-21 [Reference/Military] UID:46380 Activity:low
4/19    Kind of nice to see the level of detail in the second amendment
        discussion. Thanks to all who contributed. Makes me feel
        hopeful for democracy and the better angels of our nature.
        \_ In US the there can never be a gun control because that is
           the way the society has developed. You and me and many
           others understands the invalidity of the second amendment
           but to make it through the head of these lunatics will take
           ages or may be many such tragedies. What irks me most where
           is the PROPER BACK GROUND CHECK. If they had a process of
           checking the back ground thoroughly then any person with
           little sense would have known that this guy does not deserve
           to have even a spoon in his hand, forget a gun. There is no
           shortage of resources to dig out every bit of information of
           a gun holder and YES if a person wants to have a gun they
           cannot argue for the right to privacy. Nobody should be able
           to go to a store and buy a gun, the people who are
           interested to possess a gun should enroll themselves and a
           thorough check should be done and even then I am sure
           incidents will happen but may reduce a lot.  The general
           apathy to everything which is not your own among the people
           of this country has to change. This guy was crying out loud
           that he needed help and yet not enough was done to really
           help him. His parents were ignorant so they could not fathom
           the extend of his cruel mind but what about the rest of the
           society?  This general lack of compassion among the people
           of this country often makes us (I mean my family) wonder
           whether we should continue to live in this country or go
           back to our own land. This rush, always to do something or
           get something done all the time where nobody has time to
           look around and reach out for others is really missing.  You
           know we have a guy from certain country in our research
           lab. Believe me nobody talks to him, nobody asks him for
           lunch out, he comes and goes at his own time mostly avoiding
           the vibrant time in the lab. Last Christmas I remember him
           telling me that he is feeling very lonely because the only
           thing he would be doing during the holidays is work. I felt
           bad for him then but I did not really call him to my place
           even though I had several get togethers. This tendency of us
           to be always with the Best and seen around with the Best has
           made us forget that we should not leave anybody behind.  I
           am sorry for this long note but someway I was unburdening my self.
          \_ In US the there can never be a abolition because that is the
             way society has developed...
             But, really, OP, you were really asking for it by congratulating
             the motd crowd on civility and sense.
             \_ It is kind of tough to respond to you, especially with
                this kind of a format. But as I could understand from
                your response, you are of the opinion that we are in
                need of sophisticated weapons to defend
                ourselves. When you carry that argument too far, ther
                only way we can be safe is if we barricade our homes,
                lay mines outside, arm ourselves with rocket launchers
                and machine guns, because we can be invaded anytime.
                And I agree, that notion would not be too absurd, but
                that is exactly why we humans organized as a society
                and founded cities and eventually countries, so that
                they could get on with life and hand off their
                security to a professional military and police force
                funded by part of what they earn (as tax). If you feel
                that the government you elected cannot fulfil the duty
                assigned to them of protecting your life and property,
                it is then probably time for you to think about
                changing the government.
                If you do not empower that regulating force to control
                the possession of items which are beyond the reason of
                self-defence, then I guess it is kind of tough to
                entrust anyone with any job. I am not going to take
                the argument much further, seeing that you have a view
                that is completely orthogonal to mine and one that is
                kind of tough for me to comprehend.
                I see securing people as a job that we let someone
                else do. I pay people to write software for me, I pay
                people to protect me. Yes, I could do it all myself,
                but then I would not be able to do things that I am
                good at. I say this in the context of your argument
                that students should and would be well trained in the
                responsible use of these weapons. Contrary to what you
                might believe, military school might not be the best
                place to be.
                I refuse to fire a gun, and in your world, I would not
                survive too many days, maybe mothers are a breed that
                is undesirable in that scheme of things.
2007/4/19 [Reference/Military] UID:46374 Activity:nil
4/19    Tom does believe in Self defense and the right to bear arms
        (see evidence)
        Tom. so what happens when your ship if fueless?
        you get scummed (killed).. what happens if you have
        fuel? Tom runs away.. Ergo.. possession of firearms
        (fuel) leads to peaceful situations - duck
        \_ Fuel is not a firearm; torps and phasers are.  If you
           try your to SC-ogg when I have fuel, I'll just kill
           you and take the planet.  Ergo, possession of
           firearms leads to genocide.  -tom
           \_ NO!.. SOunds like Self-Defense to me!
           So you do have it in you!! u just dont know it.. - Duck
        (see.. Tom needs fuel for self defense and will use it)
        \_ SMACK!  -tom
        \_ DOOSH!! - duck
        \_ Just let the clue CCW , don't allow the clueless twinks to CCW
           and hope for the best.. - duck
2007/4/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:46373 Activity:high
4/19    Just last month, two private citizens stopped a potential shooting
        spree because they had guns:
        \_ And?
        \_ I know this is going to spur another thread on whether sources
           matter, but I'm not finding this in the mainstream news. Help?
           \_ Scripps isn't mainstream?
              \_ Scripps is a news-service; the story is being quoted from
                 The Commercial Appeal out of Memphis. This appears to be the
                 _only_ source of this story out there in the Internet.
           \_ Here's the local news story:
              \_ Believe me, I want to believe this story is true, but now
                 I've got a Commercial Appeal story and an AP story that
                 doesn't actually appear in a search of the AP archives.
                 Please help!
                 \_ Ah, so the local stories are also in on the conspiracy.
                    Got it.
                    \_ What conspiracy? If you see a news story from only
                       one source, it's hard to tell if it's news or
                       anecdote. Are you not familiar with urban legends?
                       \_ Found the Commercial Appeal story, and it's worthy
                          of Paul Harvey: (Commercial
                          Appeal). Roberson's side of the story:
                          'Roberson, 56, said Wednesday evening that he'd been
                           rear-ended by a black car carrying six men.
                           Roberson said he called police, then when the men
                           got out of their car, he reached down, got his gun
                           and tucked it into his back pocket.

                           At some point, Roberson said most of the men
                           dispersed, leaving just the driver and a "heavyset"
                           man. Roberson said the large man then pulled a gun.

                           "I didn't know what his intentions were, so I came
                            out with mine. I started shooting," said Roberson,
                            who is licensed to carry a gun.

                           Roberson, who was charged with reckless
                           endangerment, admits to some regrets about the

                           "I probably could've handled it a little better,"
                           added Roberson, who said he'd put his gun away
                           before the brothers arrived. "Just leave it ...
                          So now we know the rest of the story, and it's not
                          that a well-armed citizenry leads to less shootings.
        \_ Great example of how the easy availability of guns leads to
           shootings.   -tom
           \_ So what is your plan to eliminate guns?  Passing anti-gun laws
              won't eliminate them from criminal hands (that's why we call
              them criminals, they don't follow laws).  Are you advocating
              shutting down the gun makers so guns simply cease to become
              available and rounding up all the fire arms currently out there?
              \_ The shooter at VA Tech and the shooter in this story both
                 had legal permits; they weren't criminals until they
                 started shooting.  It doesn't take a whole lot of
                 imagination to figure out ways to reduce gun ownership.  -tom
                 \_ The VAT guy had been sent to the loony ward for help and
                    was a known problem.  He should not have been given a gun
                    permit.  We don't know much about this other guy so I can't
                    comment.  Anyway, I'm not very imaginative, so what is
                    your plan to reduce/eliminate gun violence?
                    \_ Medical records are private, and I'm sure the NRA
                       wouldn't be a big fan of legislation that barred
                       anyone who's been treated for depression from owning
                       a gun.  Ya think?
                       My plan is to enact legislation like England's,
                       develop gun turn-in programs, and confiscate them
                       from criminals.   -tom
                       \_ Medical records aren't private when someone is
                          determined to be a threat.  And *anyone* can be
                          hauled in for a 3 day evalution with little more
                          than a social worker's say so.  And what the NRA
                          thinks of anything is meaningless.  That's red
                          herring material.
                          So your plan is to do what a number of cities already
                          do with turnin programs and to confiscate guns from
                          criminals which already happens.  Ok.  Your plan is
                          in place and has failed.  Now what?
                          \_ Uh, I'm saying that a gun shop can't look at
                             someone's medical records to determine if
                             they can sell him a gun.
                             And you left out a rather important part of the
                             plan, which is to enact gun control laws which,
                             you know, keep people from buying more guns.
                             And yes, my plan is in place, and has succeeded.
                             \_ No one said a gun shop can look at medical
                                records.  What do you think the waiting period
                                is for?  They're sending your name off to get
                                checked for things like having a criminal
                                record or being a lunatic.  And your idea of
                                gun control laws will do exactly nothing to
                                keep guns from the hands of real criminals
                                while disarming their potential victims, the
                                rest of us.  Your plan has failed to get guns
                                from the hands of real criminals while making
                                it very hard for responsible citizens to
                                protect themselves.  Good work!
                                \_ Your medical record is not checked during
                                   the waiting period, so not only is your
                                   conjecture ridiculous, your facts are
                                   wrong.  -tom
                                   \_ The NICS system does include records of
                                      whether people have been committed.  So
                                      if a court concludes that you're a threat
                                      to yourself and others, has you committed
                                      to a mental hospital, and you later try
                                      to buy a gun, the NICS system will flag
                                      that and reject you when the firearms
                                      dealer runs you through NICS at the time
                                      of purchase.  Incidentally, a NICS check
                                      only takes a few minutes in most cases.
                                      A waiting period is only required at a
                                      federal level when it doesn't go that
                                      quickly (for whatever reason -- confusion
                                      in their records, or just from NICS
                                      being down).  A waiting period is usually
                                      imposed at the state level (such as the
                                      ten day wait in California).  NICS did
                                      involve a waiting period in the early
                                      days, but that went away by design as
                                      the system matured.  From what I've seen
                                      in the news, it sounds like the judge
                                      stopped short of something that would
                                      have shown up in NICS.
                                      \_ VT nutjob was not committed.  (It's
                                         very difficult to commit anyone
                                         these days.)  -tom
                                         \_ Being adjudicated as a mental
                                            defective will also disqualify you
                                            and show up in NICS.  The point I
                                            was trying to make is that things
                                            can show up in a NICS check to
                                            disqualify you based on your mental
                                            health without the gun shop having
                                            access to medical records.  If you
                                            get rejected by NICS, the FFL who
                                            made the NICS request doesn't know
                 \_ So lets say that we ban all gun factories except those
                    that sell to law enforcement and the military, what is
                    to stop criminals from either (1) importing their guns
                    from elsewhere (a la the drug trade) or (2) making guns
                    illegally? I mean do you really want the gun trade to
                    go underground and turn that into another debacle like
                    the whole drug thing?
                    \_ The VA Tech shooting was not done by "a criminal".
                       Neither was the shooting in this article.  It will
                       still be possible to obtain guns, just like any other
                       contraband; should we legalize heroin, since it's
                       still possible to get it on the street?  (Actually
                       if you're a libertarian nutjob, don't answer that.)
                       \_ Of course he's a criminal, he decided to murder
                          a whole bunch of people. He's probably not that
                          stupid and could very possibly have acquired
                          an illegal gun had there been a handgun ban.
                          Or modified a legal gun to make it concealable.
                          \_ He wasn't a criminal when he bought the gun,
                             over the counter.  Surely you aren't suggesting
                             that it's just as easy to obtain heroin as
                             alcohol now.  -tom
                             \_ You make a HUGE assumption - if guns were
                                not available OTC then the nutjob wouldn't
                                have been able to get any guns. If one is
                                determined to use a gun in connection w/ a
                                crime, then one will find a way to obtain
                                a gun. Furthermore, let's say we ban all
                                the guns, and criminals switch to using
                                knives, swords, crossbows, &c. What then
                                ban anything that could be used as a weapon?
                                Ban all classes that might teach you how to
                                make a weapon? Well at least the next gen
                                of ugs wouldn't have to suffer the 7 series.
                                \_ How about this: Let's just ban guns,
                                   because unlike knives, swords, and
                                   crossbows, they are known to be commonly
                                   used in fatal attacks in the U.S., and
                                   there is plenty of precedent for
                                   ways to control their distribution.  -tom
                                   \_ Swords, knives, &c. have been killing
                                      people for MUCH longer than guns have.
                                      What effective precedents are there
                                      for controlling gun distribution that
                                      would ACTUALLLY keep guns out of the
                                      hands of criminals?
                                      The whole failure of your argument
                                      is the assumption that w/o OTC access
                                      to guns, those who commit crimes would
                                      be deprived of access to them. That
                                      is not a realistic assumption. Do you
                                      really think this nutjob wouldn't have
                                      found some other way to get his guns?
                                      \_ Yes, I think there's a big difference
                                         between being able to walk into a
                                         store and buy a gun, and having to
                                         find some black-market way to
                                         obtain one.  It's the same difference
                                         that keeps more people drinking
                                         alcohol than smoking pot.  And
                                         there exist other countries which
                                         manage to keep guns out of the
                                         hands of nutjobs. It's obviously not
                                         impossible--it's being done.  -tom
                                         \_ Yeah, banning guns has completely
                                            stopped violent crime in Australia
                                            and the UK.  Oops, not really.
                                            \_ Strawman.  Both the U.K. and
                                               Australia have murder rates
                                               less than half of ours.  -tom
                                            \_ More to the point, the number
                                               of mass fatalities due to
                                               violent crime is lower in places
                                               where guns are banned.
                                         \_ I guess we just disagree. I think
                                            that you might stop the occasional
                                            spur of the moment crime by making
                                            it harder to purchase guns, but I
                                            don't think that a ban will affect
                                            people like the nutcase in VT.
                                            Such people will manage to find
                                            guns just like ugs at Cal manage
                                            to find pot on a regular basis.
                                            I just think the marginal upside
                                            of safety from gun violence is
                                            not enough to outweigh the loss
                                            of overall freedom that we as a
                                            people will have from our gov.
                                            I think my freedom is worth the
                                            risk that I will be a victim of
                                            gun violence. You don't. I can
                                            accept that.
                                            \_ Could you explain, then, why
                                               our murder rate is double
                                               that of comparable countries?
                                               \_ I do not think there are
                                                  any comparable countries.
                                                  Every where else on earth
                                                  is less free than the US.
                                                  Perhaps the price for my
                                                  freedom is that some nut
                                                  will kill me using a gun
                                                  he bought at Walmart, but
                                                  I'm willing to pay that
                                                  \_ Uh, how is the U.S. any
                                                     more "free" than the
                                                     U.K. or Australia?  Other
                                                     than gun ownership.  -tom
                                                     \_ We do have a more open
                                                        legislative process than
                                                        at least the UK.
                                                     \_ Can you walk down the
                                                        street without being
                                                        watched by the gvt?
                                                        You can't and no.
                                                        They are on track to
                                                        1984.  Only lack of
                                                        funds for cameras in
                                                        every home is holding
                                                        them back, they have
                                                        them every- where
                                                        else.  The people are
                                                        certainly suffici-
                                                        ently brow beaten for
                                                        it.  You can't even
                                                        legally defend
                                                        yourself or another in
                                                        the UK.  If the UK is
                                                        your idea of a free
                                                        place, I'd rather risk
                                                        getting shot, thanks.
                                                        \_ You didn't mention
                                                           Australia.  And
                                                           there are plenty
                                                           of government
                                                           cameras in the US.
                                                           \_ I don't know
                                            \_ Drawing on this argument, are
                                               there any studies/documentaries
                                               showing how hard/easy it is to
                                               obtain a gun on the so-called
                                               black market? Are there studies
                                               comparing black market sales of
                                               of firearms in countries that
                                               ban guns and those that, like
                                               the US, regulate irregularly?
                anything about Australia so I didn't comment.  Unlike a number
                of people here I restrict myself to things I know something
                about.  And no, the number of cameras in the US which are
                mostly in gas stations and banks is trivial next to what the
                UK has done and plans to expand to.  There's no way you can
                make any serious claim that the US == UK on watching their
                citizens.  It's even worse there because the intent of the
                cameras is to exert social control, not improve security such
                as here with banks.  Do you really not know what is going on
                in the UK with their 1984 style camera plans?
                \_ Do you really not know what's going on in the U.S.?
                   There are cameras at almost every intersection in
                   San Francisco now.  They're starting to show up on
                   speed limit signs, too.  Also, you stated that
                   "there are no comparable countries," and
                   "everywhere else is less free than the U.S."  That
                   implies knowledge of why Australia is not
                   comparable to the U.S.  Certainly, not including
                   Australia in your response is a dodge.  -tom
                     \_ We need a War on Guns.
           \_ not everyone sprays and prays like the runner buttorper u r
              \_ "I was addicted to Netrek.  The fame, the success, the
                 glory."  Good to see you back, Duck.  -tom
                 \_ 2 INL rings baby! CMU and GB! hehe
                 \_ Tom. so what happens when your ship if fueless?
                   you get scummed (killed).. what happens if you have
                   fuel? Tom runs away.. Ergo.. possession of firearms
                   (fuel) leads to peaceful situations - duck
                   \_ Fuel is not a firearm; torps and phasers are.  If you
                      try your to SC-ogg when I have fuel, I'll just kill
                      you and take the planet.  Ergo, possession of
                      firearms leads to genocide.  -tom
                      \_ NO!.. SOunds like Self-Defense to me!
                       So you do have it in you!! u just dont know it-duck
        \_ The funny thing about this story is that it basically goes like
           1) Minor traffic accident
           2) Minor argument
           3) Unknown person allegedly pulls out a gun
           4) Robinson pulls out a legal gun and starts shooting
           5) Robinson puts gun away
           6) Yahoo in pickup truck pulls out a legal gun, threatens Robinson

           The funny part is that this is being posted as an example of why
           we need *more* guns!  Like this interaction went better because
           people had guns.  If anything, it points out the stupid things
           people do when they have guns, and that one doesn't need to be
           a "criminal" to do something stupid with a gun that could get
           someone killed.  -tom
           \_ That's one version.  How about this version: not knowing Robinson
              had a gun, they figured they push him around and maybe beat him
              up.  But they were wrong.  Then another armed citizen comes up
              and is fortunately armed and defuses the whole thing.  Without
              guns involved, this could have easily turned into, "Man in minor
              fender bender beaten to death, police seek possible witnesses".
              \_ Unlike yours, my version is supported by the actual story
                 as reported.  -tom
                 \_ Duh.  My version is the hypothetical if guns weren't
                    involved.  Try again with reading comprehension > 0.
                    \_ According to the article, there was only one guy
                       left *before* any guns were involved.  Try again
                       with clue > 0.  -tom
                       \_ Yeah, a big thug who was looking to beat him up,
                          like I said.  He didn't pull the gun for nothing.
                          Back to reading class.
                          \_ ??? R says he was tailed by 6 dudes in car. He
                             gets out of his truck. They get out of their car
                             five of them split. The remaining guy pulls gun.
                             R pulls gun and starts shooting. Bros. arrive and
                             draw gun on R. Large dude disappears. Bros. place
                             R under citizen arrest. By any reading of the
                             article, the five dudes split before R pulled his
                             gun. -!tom
        \_ here is a related question. The whole second amendment thing is
           wrt a "well-regulated militia".  So how does that allow someone
           to own a gun unless they are part of such a militia. And , last
           I checked, state militias went out with the civil war and laws
           against treason/overthrow of the government. So, shouldn't
           the whole second amendment thing be moot as a justification for
           personal handgun use /ownership? --not a troll
           \_ Because the "militia" at that time was all adult males capable of
              using a firearm, not something like the National Guard we see
              today.  Remember that at that time most people were farmers or
              tradesmen and the government was trivially small.  There was little
              "well regulated" government anything at the time.
                \_ I understand the past relevance; but not the current one.
                   Gov't is very different now than it was back then. As I
                   understand, it was supposed to also act as a stopgap to
                   an overreaching Federal gov't (or a king). I just don't
                   understand the contemporary relevance. Unless of course
                   you beleive in the right/need for the violent overthrow of
                   the government. No sane person would think that way.
                   (At least I hope not).
                   \_ one could say the contemporary purpose is the same as
                      the past one:  as a deterrent.  no sane person would
                      want to start a global thermonuclear war.
                      \_ Every NRA member should be issued a thermonuclear
                         device to be used in self-defense only.  Because
                         who can you trust, if not NRA members?  -tom
           \_ This is actually a good question for which there is no
              clear answer (depending on your politics).
              I am not a 2d expert, but what I know from my Con Law
              class, and related, is that there are two views re the
              rights in the 2d. To inform our discussion, the amend.
              is quoted below:
                  [i] A well regulated militia, [ii] being
                  necessary to the security of a free state,
                  [iii] the right of the people to keep and
                  bear arms, [iv] shall not be infringed.
              (I have numbered the phrases for reference purposes.)
              Phrase iii seems to recongize that that "the people"
              have a right to "keep and bear arms." This is what
              many people call the "personal right" to arms.
              The difficulty comes when one tries to determine the
              import of phrases i and ii.
              One view is that these phrases qualify the personal
              right. Thus the right recongized is a right of the
              states to maintain an armed militia. The modern view
              on this is that the term militia means something like
              the national guard, which can be deployed by a state's
              governor. Basically, Congress couldn't pass a law that
              prevented the states from arming thier national guard
              A different view is that phrase i and ii recognize a
              separate right (the right of the states) or merely
              explain the personal right; the personal right exists
              separate and apart from the other language. This view
              comes from the fact that many of the other amendments
              recognize multiple rights in condensed language. It is
              also supported by fact that at the time the amendment
              was adopted, the term militia was widely understood to
              mean all adult males. (Some dispute whether this is
              strictly true, b/c why would the framers use the term
              "people" and "militia" if the terms were basically the
              If you are really interested, you should read the
              following cases:
              [1] PARKER v. D.C., No. 04-7041 (D.C. Cir. Mar. 9, 2007),
         (cadc.uscourts.cov - pdf)
                  (holding that the 2d amend. recognizes a personal
              [2] US v. EMERSON, 270 F.3d 203 (5th Cir. 2001),
                  (holding that the 2d amend. recongizes a personal
              [3] SILVEIRA v. LOCKYER, 312 F.2d 1052 (9th Cir. 2002)
         ( - pdf)
                  (holding that the 2d amend. does not recognize a
                  personal right).
              [4] US v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 175 (1939)
                  (questioning whether the 2d amend. provided any
                  personal right, absent evidence tending to show
                  that possession of a particular weapon had some
                  reasonable relationship to the preservation or
                  efficiency of a militia).
           \_ the "well regulated" modifier I believe was meant to address
              a real fear of mob rule and other acts of the unwashed
              citizenry.  thus, we see the correct interpretation of the
              second amendment - a balance between gun ownership as a
              fundamental right and guarantee against government tyranny,
              and regulation to prevent going loco with your Glock.
              the core issue is in where you strike this balance.
2007/4/18-20 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:46364 Activity:moderate
4/18    I can't hit shit with my dominant hand with a .22
        How the hell did Korean Shooter manage to shoot 50 people?
        Did Chow Yun Fat train him?
        \_ Some people are naturals...I personally took a pistol course
           offered through my martial arts class taught by the same people who
           train FBI agents.  AT the end we were tested, I got an expert  level
           marksmanship (highest).  I hit the target every single time (50
           rounds)...only two rounds were not within the first circle of the
           target.  This was all while moving, at varying distances.  Note, I've
           never owned a gun before or since.  I do have better than 20-20
           eyesight. -scottyg
        \_ the sheeple just sat there waiting for their turn
        \- he did a lot of "hand exercises"
        \_ lots of CS.  many victims were shot 3+ times, some in the head,
           which is what you do in CS -- shoot for the body while they jump
           around, and then for the head when they slow down.
           besides, most dead people were found in two classrooms, with him
           blocking the only exit (no backdoor).
           he shot a girl in the mouth.
           \_ What does CS stand for?
              \_ Counter-Strike
           \_ Unless he was playing CS on a Wii or with a Light Gun, I don't
              see how this translates. Your mouse is not a pistol.
              \_ ob CS + hands-on practice + some dexterity
                 a friend who is a trained shooter pulls single shots
                 between multi-second pauses playing a stand-up arcade game.
                 I agree just CS is not sufficient.
        \_ Glock 19 comes with 3 15round mags. From the picture of the
           hollow points, and the statement of the gun store, he bought
           Remington HPs - the cheapest HP - because they come in qty 50
           Most HPs are sold in qty 20.
2007/4/18-21 [Reference/Military] UID:46353 Activity:moderate
4/18    "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be
        reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (The Dali Lama -
        May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times), "Among the many misdeeds of
        the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act
        depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest" (Mohandas K.
        Gandhi - The Story of My Experiments with Truth, Page 403,
        Dover paperback edition, 1983), "That rifle on the wall of
        the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of
        democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
        (George Orwell), "The world is filled with violence.
         Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens
        should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent
        people will lose." (James Earl Jones).
        \_ 1) I doubt anyone would disagree with the Dali Lama's statement,
              but it's irrelevant to the discussion.
           2) Do you really think people in India view a prohibition on guns
              as the blackest misdeed of British rule?
           3) The other two quotes are just silly.
           \_ 1) It is relevant because you can't shoot back if you don't have
                 a gun.
              2) If they had guns would there have been an armed revolt much
                 earlier which kicked the British out sooner with less loss
                 of Indian life and abuse at British hands?  We can't know.
                    \_ Actually Netaji's armed revolt failed. One is almost
                       greatful that the inane socialism of Gandhi and Nehru
                       prevailed b/c Netaji was allied with the Axis powers.
                       \_ Well, remember he did go to the russians first.
                          it is kind of interesting that his loose canonness
                          freked out the british enough, they wanted to
                          assisinate him [so in that sense, he was a bit
                          beyond the "merely" imprisoned gandhi and neheru].
                          if you want a better candidate for the darkest
                          aspect of east india company and british [govt]
                          rule in india, it is the many famines that
                          ocurred because of the nature of their governance.
                          [remember the EIC increased the profits extracted
                          from india over the 1770 famine].
                          might one not see cooperation with the japanese
                          army in a slightly different light in the context
                          of the bengal famine of 1943. if you buy the widely
                          believed analysis of amarty sen, that puts +4m
                          deaths partly on churchill's head. and remember
                          stalin was "our" ally.
                            Jodi tor dak shune keu na ashe
                            Tobe akla cholo re ...
                 \_ I am an indian citizen and have shot a gun in india
                    so i suspect i am better informed on this matter than
                    you are. the statement above refers to the Arms Act
                    issued a couple of decades after the indian mutiny of
                    1857 and proper analogy of that Act would be if congress
                    passed a statue in the 1850s "clarifying" the 2nd amd
                    to read "black people south of the mason dixon line
                    cannot own guns or be employed in gun factories,
                    unless their masters will vouch for them." this is not
                    a statement of gun rights but the double standards that
                    were de rigeur in colonial legislation, and it's
                    impinging on self determination and soverignty. you
                    know there is a reason the A in Act is capitalized.
                    india today, like most of the rest of the world, sees
                    guns as mostly something owned by cops and the military
                    and low lifes [the eqivalent of gangbangers ... when
                    there is a fight, most bring cricket bats, chains and
                    field hockey sticks and these things that are a cross
                    between a machete and a hatchet called a "da", but a
                    few more "professional"/accomplished goondas have
                    illegal "shoni-night specials"] and some decadent rich
                    people [i went shooting with this dood on at his country
                    estate. this guy literally owned a village, his wife was
                    referred to mostly only partly jokingly as "the queen"...
                    referred to only partly jokingly as "the queen"...
                    it was basically a feudal set up]. there is no common
                    gun culture there, almost nobody has senitmental memories
                    of shooting cans off a fence post with granddad on the
                    back40, going hunting with their dogs and buddies etc.
              3) Why are they silly?  Because you disagree?
                 \_ 1) You can't get shot at if the screwed-up
                       college kid can't get a gun in the first place.
                       Whether guns should be easily available is a
                       completely orthogonal to whether self-defense
                       is permissible.
                       \_ Screwball is going to get a gun.  We've had a War on
                          Drugs for decades and drug use has only climbed and
                          spawned entirely new levels of violence unheard of
                          before the WoD.
                          \_ Uh, drug use is down 50% from 1979.  -tom
                    2) We can and do know that no one sane views gun
                       control as "the blackest misdeed of British
                       \_ I'm glad we all automatically agree with you simply
                          because to not to do is insane.
                    3) They're ideological assertions with no meaning.  -tom
                       \_ Funny coming from the one most likely to post
                          ideological assertions on the motd with no backing.
                          Did you post #3 as some sort of inside joke?
        \_ Still not clear on how the possession of firearms in the current
           day and age somehow prevents the gov. from depriving us of our
           civil liberties. It certainly didn't help Jose Padilla or the folks
           at Ruby Ridge or Waco. In Pakistan, mind you, yes, I can see it.
           But here in the States?
           \_ Look at Britain.  They're headed straight to 1984 and no one
              blinks.  No guns and looking at knives next.  No right to
              self defense.  No right to assist another in need.  Doomed.
              \_ Did you take V for Vendetta as a history lesson?
              \_ Where is this mythical Britain you are speaking of?
           \_ Actually someone yesterday had a very good point. In Iraq
              several hundred thousand (million?) lightly armed people
              are making a mess of things for the "feds," if you will.
              If things every get sufficiently out of hand, maybe you
              won't be able to stop the feds, but you and your closest
              1 million neighbors might be able to.
              \_ What do you see as the odds of the US being invaded/occupied
                 a la Red Dawn or Iraq? 'Cos I'm betting they're even lower
                 now than they were in the 80s when we actually had an army
                 arrayed against us.
                 \_ I think the odds of the US being invaded are irrelevant
                    wrt the right to keep and bear arms. The purpose is not
                    protect the people from invasion (external). The purpose
                    is to protect the people from our own government acting
                    against us. The idea is that if the populace is armed,
                    then the government hesitates to act recklessly b/c the
                    people could rise up against it.
                    \_ This undoubtedly made sense in the 18th century when
                       arms and technology were such that a populace with
                       access to firearms could effect a revolution against a
                       tyrannical government (i.e., King George III or his
                       potential succesor at the time, Kinge George Washington)
                       but given the military might of the US Armed Forces,
                       possession of non-military-grade gear translates
                       quickly into ineffectual resistance; at best, a pop.
                       with access to light arms and explosives can mount a
                       guerilla terrorist campaign, esp. if properly motivated
                       (say against an invading force), but against domestic
                       authorities? That sounds very much like a pipe dream.
                       \_ Although I generally agree, that post about the
                          situation in Iraq made me want to rethink my
                          position. The Insurgents have given the "feds,"
                          if you will, a sufficiently hard time. If the
                          government decides to nuke and pave Baghdad,
                          then all the AK-47s in the world won't do any
                          good, but short of something like that, small
                          arms have allowed generally non-military types
                          to resist military occupation.
                          \_ They've certainly made it uncomfortable and
                             dangerous, but the US Army still has the run of
                             the entire country and can arrest and detain at
                             will. The occupation of Iraq is being harried, not
              \_ I didn't see yesterday's motd, but this is a very very good
                 point, which occured to me about a year ago, and caused me
                 to change my mind about the second amendment.  I'd always
                 been against gun control on general principle, but thought
                 that the idea that random citizens with guns prevented tyrrany
                 was silly.  Now that the Red Dawn scenario is actually playing
                 out in Iraq, with untrained teenage hooligans bringing the
                 U.S. armed forces to its knees, I've become a much stronger
                 supporter of the 2nd amendment, and plan to buy a gun this
                 \- have you noticed 10x the number of iraqis get killed
                    as us forces. are you the same person suggesting
                    your pollution credits should be proprotional to
                    your production/consumption? and what is bringing
                    the us army to a halt are explosives and suicide
                    attacks, and a desire to limit civilian casualties ...
                    not firefights against people with civilian class weapons.
                    finally these armed groups in iraq arent doing much
                    that is productive but just denying stability.
                    if things became anarchic the neighbors are probably
                    going to be the problems and the us govt the solution.
                    the lesson in iraq may be: tyranny is better than
                    anarchy. the people in the ancien regime were probably
                    better off than people during the 30yrs war.
                 \_ yeah, because we really want to emulate what's happening
                    in Iraq right now.
                    The idea that the U.S. government is Coming For You is
                    simply ridiculous.  -tom
                    \_ You trust our government?
                       \_ if you dont, your choice is to move to canada
                          or spain, not to buy a gun. besides trust them
                          to/not to do what? imminent domain your house?
                          reneg on social welfare safety net? take your
                          gun away? inject you with syphilis? listen
                          to your phone calls? watch you search for assp0rn?
                          \_ The reason I remain a US citizen is b/c I
                             trust our government more than any other
                             on this earth. But, that doesn't mean that
                             I trust our government very much at all.
                             I, of course, am severely biased b/c I
                             believe that all government, if unchecked,
                             slowly expands to take away the rights of
                             the people who created it. The only check
                             I see is to instill fear in those who run
                             the machinery of the government that a
                             sufficiently enraged populace has the
                             ability to retake their rights by force.
                             Is my belief at all realistic? Hell No.
                             But then again I am a bit of romantic
                             and may have read too much Thomas Paine,
                             &c. during my illspent youth.
                       \_ I trust our government a hell of a lot more than
                          I trust Charlton Heston.  -tom
                          \_ Didn't answer the question.  You're ducking.
                             \_ The question is meaningless.  I think the
                                likelihood that our government will ever
                                do anything that I will personally need to
                                take up arms against is absurdly remote;
                                far more remote than the real societal
                                problems caused by easy gun ownership.  -tom
        \_ "Everybody got a pistol, everybody got a 45 / And the philosophy
            seem to be / At least as near as I can see / When other folks
            give up theirs, I'll give up mine." (Gil Scott-Heron)
        \_ my question of the day is, what does 2nd Amentment has anything to
           do with the ban on hand gun?  I mean, I don't care about 2nd
           Amentment, but I don't see ban on hand gun has anything to do with
           it.  Our right to bear arm was never limitless, civilians is not
           allow to own most of the weapons anyway, i don't see add hand gun
           to the banned list alters anything.
           \_ Well, to the people handguns are the only practical
              guns that can be carried around for self defense. Go argue with
           \_ Consider the meaing of the words "shall not be infringed."
              While many would agree that the right is not limitless, the
              issue is where and how can a limit be drawn. Many fear that
              it starts by adding one type of gun to the banned list, and
              then another, and still another, and eventually the people
              have no guns, the government (and criminals) have all the
              guns and the people are screwed.
              To think of it another way, first you add one book to the
              banned list, then another, and another, finally the whole
              library is empty. Would you support that?
              \_ That's pretty much a slippery slope argument. It's not
                 a reasonable argument to tie handguns to rifles. They
                 are different beasts. Of course some rifles can be
                 modified fairly easily into a pistol-like size. But
                 that would also be illegal.
                 \_ As a non-gun owner and a pacifist I don't really
                    know what the difference between a handgun and
                    a rifle really is (other than size). If one seeks
                    the deterrent effect, it seems that rifles cannot
                    be regulated b/c handguns are not an effective
                    deterrent. The logic, therefore, is why regulate
                    the small potato, when one ought not regulate the
                    big potato.
                    I really do not know what the sol'n is to this
                    problem b/c I see that regulating firearms and not
                    regulating firearms both make us less safe in
                    different ways.
                    \_ There is a saying: "a handgun is what you use to
                       fight your way to your real gun."
                    \_ Well handguns are a lot more easily and commonly
                       used for crime. They are also less useful as
                       "deter government from fucking with you" weapons.
                       Silencers are banned because of their criminal
                       usefulness. It would only be logical to extend the ban
                       to handguns altogether. A shotgun is probably better for
                       "home defense" anyway. Someone with a rifle can still
                       kill a bunch of people, but generally not do the sorts
                       of massacres that have been getting headlines. Someone
                       can still snipe people one at a time, or run into some
                       place with his AK47 but this type of thing is easier
                       to see, contain and guard against.
2007/4/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Reference/Military] UID:46342 Activity:nil 71%like:46337
4/17 (
        Killer, a 23-year-old senior English major, virtually never spoke to
        roommate or suitemates.  Wrote a play for class where a kid suffocates
        his father-in-law with a rice krispy treat. (
        Simultaneously wielded handguns in both hands during the attack.  High
        school friends say he was a big fan of Counter-Strike.
        \_ Mr. Robinson?
        \_ Chau Yun-Fat style.
2007/4/17 [Reference/Military] UID:46337 Activity:insanely high 71%like:46342
4/17 (
        Killer, a 23-year-old senior English major, virtually never spoke to
        roommate or suitemates.  Wrote a play for class where a kid suffocates
        his father-in-law with a rice krispy treat.
        \_ Mr. Robinson?
2007/4/17-18 [Reference/Military] UID:46330 Activity:nil
        for gun nuts wondering how a 9mm Glock could be so lethal, ER doc says
        every patient had at least three bullet wounds (not necessarily
        excluding defensive wounds from one round)
        \_ Everyone knows the South Koreans are the world's best computer
           game players.  If you can blow away 30 enemies in seconds on the
           screen, I guess it translates over.
2007/4/16-19 [Reference/Military] UID:46325 Activity:moderate
        go down to "A student e-mails"
        If the students had a gun, they might have been able to stop it.
        \_ And everyone who talks tough when safely at home is to be taken
           seriously now?
        \_ If the shooter didn't have a gun, it would have been stopped to
           begin with.  -tom
           \_ unfortunately laws are there to discourage someone from
              doing harm to others at the cost of severe punishment
              but if the person such as this doesn't care about punishment
              because he doesn't plan to survive (suicide) then laws
              become meaningless. The deterrent is gone unless there
              is the fear of being shot by law-abiding armed citizens
              which there were on that campus not to long ago.
              The fact that guns are in the 2nd amendment prevents our
              government from lining up its citizens along the edge of
              a ditch and machine gunning them down for not following
              what the facist govermnment wants them to do..
              but I take it you didn't believe in the holocaust either..
              I believe anyone who listens to tom will one day end
              up in a line in from a ditch and get gunned down and buried
           \_   if the Critical mass people obeyed the law then
                that incident would not have happened last week.
                you have unreasonable fears about people who CCW that
                they would shoot each other. Concealed carry people
                do not pull out their weapons because that is illegal
                (CONCEALment is required) If someone pulls out their
                gun and starts shooting people it becomes obvious
                who the immediate threat is. Just like in critical mass,
                do you have a major fear of a bicycle crash with lots
                of bikes together? it should happen more so since they
                break the law and pass red lights and they break and
                attack cars...
              \_ As much as I agree w/ you, the 2d is not an effective
                 deterrent against federal abuse in this day and age.
                 What use is a handgun against a tank or a ucav?
                 \_ Have you seen Iraq lately? A few tens of million
                    lightly armed citizens can really make a mess of things.
                    lightly armed citizens can really make a mess of
                    \_ I had not considered this. I guess if the gov.
                       is reluctant to deploy its full destructive
                       might against the opposing force, then small
                       arms mights be an effective means of resistance.
                       \_ Well, even in Vietnam, where the US did try to
                          deploy full destructive force.
                          \_ No we didn't.  Today we bomb, sort of, then
                             we ask them to talk with us a bit, then it
                             doesn't go well so we bomb a bit more in some
                             other unimportant place and whatever you do
                             don't ever bomb too far north.  Can't go
                             around actually killing the enemy unfairly.
                          \_ No H-Bombs were used in Vietnam, afaik.
           \_ if the Critical mass people obeyed the law then that incident
              would not have happened last week. you have unreasonable fears
              about people who CCW that they would shoot each other.
              Concealed carry people do not pull out their weapons because
              that is illegal (CONCEALment is required) If someone pulls out
              their gun and starts shooting people it becomes obvious who the
              immediate threat is. Just like in critical mass, do you have a
              major fear of a bicycle crash with lots of bikes together? it
              should happen more so since they break the law and pass red
              lights and they break and attack cars...
           \_ Damned pesky 2nd amendment. -emarkp
                 \_ Actually no. It is entirely unclear that the 2d creates
                    a personal right. Even if it does, the 2d has never been
                    incorporated against the states, therefore the states
                    remain free to regulate arms, provided that there is no
                    state constitutional limit. In this case, Art I Sec. 13
                    Virginia's State Constitution imposes substantially the
                    same limit as the 2d. If anyone is to "blame," it is the
                    people of Virgina, who adopted this limitation in 1776
                    and have not seen fit to repeal it since then.
                    I disagree w/ the assertion below that the 2d would not
                    have been placed in the Constitution if the information
                    known today was known to the framers. As the Constitution
                    is derived from Common Law, and this right was recognized
                    at Common Law since the late 1100s, it is likely that the
                    framers would have included it. The life of the law is
                    \_ England is a common law country, yet they've essentially
                       banned gun ownership.  -tom
                       \_ Thank god we parted company w/ them.
                       \_ And they're also the most nanny-statish on-camera
                          people on the planet, ever.  The less we follow
                          their example the better.
                          \_ yeah, it's much worse to be shot with a camera
                             than with a gun
              \_ Yes, it is.  Shockingly, the founding fathers weren't able
                 to anticipate 100% of the effects the pieces of paper they
                 signed might have 200+ years later.  It's farcial to assume
                 that they would write the constitution the same way if
                 they had the information available to us now.  -tom
                 \_ of course they would,, having a gun+ammo back then
                    was the only way you could survive, indians, bears,
                    murderers, rapist.. it's the great equalizer...
                    but if only the murderer has the gun then it's
                    a total massacre like yesterday.. somehow.. criminals
                    (those who do not follow the law) will always find
                    weapons and kill off law abiding folks..
                    It's not about gun laws, not about guns... it's about
                    the stupid way laws are applied to the citizenry..
                    they are always applied against law abiding citizens..
                    if some people CCW on that campus then it would have
                    ended sooner but the laws forced those who obey the
                    law to not bring their guns to campus.
                    \_ The shooter was not a criminal until he started
                       shooting.  It is almost certain that if he lived
                       in someplace like the U.K., he would not have had
                       the guns and ammo necessary to carry out his
                       rampage.  -tom
                       \_ The framers included the 2d for precisely this
                          reasons - they felt less free when the crown
                          could take away their only ultimately effective
                          means of resistance.
                          In their minds the costs imposed on society by
                          the free access to arms - violent crime - was
                          outweighed by the cost imposed by restricting
                          that right - government oppression.
                          I undestand that you feel that this balance is
                          no longer appropriate (or was never appropriate).
                          If you suggest that we should rebalance today,
                          why? Mere change in technology?
                          If so, do you think that we should rebalance the
                          4th to give the police more or less ability to
                          use things like thermal imagers to look into your
                          house? Do you think that we should rebalance the
                          1st for things like hate speech, child pr0n on
                          the Internet?
                          The framers seemed to get so many things correct,
                          that, to me, it is foolish to think they got this
                          one wrong.
                          \_ The other amendments are all much more fluid than
                             the second, which has a large, well-funded group
                                \_ The others are not at all fluid.
                                   \_ I disagree, the scope of the
                                      1st, 4th, 6th, 14th, &c. have
                                      tended to expand and contract
                                      over the years. For example,
                                      the 4th exclusionary rule is
                                      currently on the wane. As is
                                      the emphasis on a warrant.
                                      The 6th right to assistance
                                      of counsel has also been
                                      significantly reduced in the
                                      last decade. Since the 40s
                                      the 14th has almost never
                                      been used for economic laws,
                                      but its coverage of other
                                      rights continues to expand.
                                      \- not a challenge but an inquiry:
                                         what are the sig changes to 6th amd
                                         right to counsel recently? for 4th,
                                         assume you mean US v LEON etc. ok tnx
                                         \_ Re 6th - I am off on dates
                                            but look at KUHLMANN v.
                                            WILSON, 477 US 436, holding
                                            that 6th requires cops to
                                            deliberately elicit stmt
                                            from suspect. It was long
                                            assumed that the test for
                                            interrogation under the
                                            6th was much less or at
                                            least equal to interrogation
                                            under 5th (MIRANDA) b/c the
                                            6th confers an affirmative
                                            right to assistance of counsel
                                            whereas 5th merely gets you a
                                            warning.  Also, TEXAS v. COBB,
                                            532 US 162, holding that 6th
                                            doesn't even apply to related
                                            offenses - the 5th again is
                                            better b/c it is not offense
                                            specific. The trend is toward
                                            weaker 6th. (and weaker 5th,
                                            e.g. DICKERSON v US, 530 US
                                            428 holding only that stmt
                                            in violation of MIRANDA can't
                                            be used in the DA's case in
                                            chief - but DA remains free
                                            to use for impeachment,
                                            sentencing, &c.)
                                            Re 4th - Consider HUDSON
                                            v MICHIGAN, 126 S. Ct. 2159,
                                            holding that MAPP exclusion
                                            not required for a knock
                                            notice violation AND holding
                                            (in dicta) that as long as
                                            the cops could have acted
                                            legally (ie got a warrant)
                                            the doctrine of inevitable
                                            discovery can sanitize a
                                            bad actions. Implication
                                            of the extension of
                                            inevitable discovery is
                                            that once cops have probable
                                            cause they can always search
                                            and arrest w/o a warrant b/c
                                            once they have probable they
                                            could have got a warrant.
                                            \- re: invetiable discovery,
                                               i think the BREWER v WILLIAMS
                                               cases are pretty interesting.
                                               once of those cases where
                                               one of those cases where
                                               you couldnt write a better
                                               screenplay than the real facts.
                             of ideologues defending against any attempt to
                             change it or make it relevant to today's world.
                             The *first* reaction of the President of the
                             Frickin' United States to a gruesome gun massacre
                             was to reassert the right to bear arms.  Somehow
                             I don't think that his first reaction to the
                             most egregious violations related to the first or
                             fourth amendments would be to talk about how
                             important free speech is.  (And as for the
                             fourth, we already have plenty of evidence that
                             he doesn't care about it at all).  -tom
                             \_ To many, the very fact that the courts have
                                treated the other amendments as fluid is
                                itself a problem that, if necessary, may need
                                to be rectified via the rights protected by
                                the 2d.
                                Some would also suggest that the 1st and 4th
                                both have a large, well-funded group of ide-
                                ologues defending them against any attempt
                                to change them or make them relevant to
                                today's world - namely the ACLU.
                                My concern is merely this - if the 2d can be
                                reevaluated b/c of a changed factual predicate
                                what is to stop similar reevaluation of the
                                other amendments. Even under this administra-
                                tion, the 4th continues to limit executive
                                power. But, the executive continues to insist
                                that these limits are outdated and prevent it
                                from acting in ways that are necessary to
                                protect the people.
                                If we accept the arms controller's arguments,
                                then perhaps we should accept the executive's
                                argument as well. This will leave us subject
                                argument as well. This may leave us subject
                                to invasive government conduct w/ no means of
                                of resistance (however ineffective those means
                                may actually be).
                 \_ There's a process to change the constitution put in place
                    by those same founders.  If the 2nd amendment right to bear
                    arms is no longer beneficial to our society then let's drop
                    it from the constitution.  Other amendments have come and
                    gone, there is nothing so special about this one it can't
                    be changed through the process provided without resorting
                    to bizarre and unjustifiable misinterpretations of the
                    wording.  (No, I'm not saying you're doing that but it is
                    common to say the 2nd doesn't say what it says).
                    \_ Unfortunately, attempts to undo the 2nd amendment would
                       be met with much resistance, and those opposed happen
                       to be the same people who are heavily-armed.
                       \_ You're right, that is a problem.  It would be much
                          easier to take away people's civil liberties if they
                          didn't have those pesky guns!
                          \_ Didn't you see the recently released e-mail
                             exchange between Bush and Abu Gonzales?
                             BUSHG: Let's spy on people and read their
                                    e-mails so we can win the war on terra!
                             GONZALESA: But the people have guns!
                             BUSHG: Shit, never mind, I forgot!
           \_ Yes!  This is it!  What we need is a War on Guns!  That'll be
              right up there with the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, the War
              on Terrorism, the War on Crime, the War on Smoking, the War on
              Bad Eating Habits, the War on Drunk Driving, the War on The
              Growing Digital Divide Between the Rich and the Poor, the and war
              to end all wars: The War On War Itself!  What we need is another
              War!  Woot!
              \_ Hey, drunk driving is WAY down these days.  Yes it is still
                 bad, but it's miles better then it was a generation ago.
                 \_ How are the other 8 or 9 Wars On XYZ going?  I suspect
                    Darwin has more to do with any slim decrease in drunk
                    driving deaths than anything else.
                    \_ Drunk driving fatalities have dropped a significant
                       amount, by several thousand deaths a year in the U.S.
                       Smoking is also way down, as are pot and cocaine use
                       among teens.  Some of the things you list, such as the
                       War on Terrorism, are foils for political efforts that
                       have nothing to do with their stated goals.  And what's
                       your point, anyway...that we shouldn't try to change
                       anything?  -tom
           \_ Since you can't stop him from having a gun, you should let
              other people have guns.
        \_ I have this magic wand that will make all guns disappear. Then
           the same government you trust with your guns will surely stay
           out of your bedroom, your lifestyle and your wallet.
           \_ Out of curiosity, how does your right to own a gun prevent the
              government from intruding into your bedroom, lifestyle, and
              wallet now?
              \_ Or to take this thought further: when in the history of the
                 U.S. has private ownership of guns been an effective check
                 on government power?  -tom
                 \_ Every day.  Look at the British.  It could be like that
                    \_ Like what?  -tom
                       \_ Spying on you everywhere you go for starters.
                          \_ So you think the only thing keeping the U.S.
                             from spying on you everywhere you go is
                             private gun ownership?  I'd say the two
                             are completely unrelated.  In fact, I think
                             a lot of the gun yahoos are the same guys
                             who want to give the government more power
                             to spy on us.  -tom
                 \_ Until the 40s I would say that private ownership of
                    guns had been an effective check on government power.
                    The government hesitates to act against the people,
                    if it believes the people may take to the streets to
                    correct its misdeeds. Since the 40s I would say that
                    if the government decides to truly move against the
                    people, private gun ownership is of no consequence.
                    \_ The government would never move completely against
                       the people anyway. They can usually manipulate and
                       propagandize to get 30-40% of the people to support
                       whatever it is, which is enough to maintain the
                       notion of representative gov't and forestall direct
                       confrontation. At least since the Civil War. (Private
                       ownership of guns didn't stop the feds from pwning
                       the South.)
2007/4/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:46320 Activity:nil
4/16    For emarkp: Extensive debunking of John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime"
        \_ Hi troll!  Sign your name.  Oh, and just by chance, have you looked
           for any response to Lambert, and weighed it against the paper?  Or
           did you just pick the first reference that fit your agenda? -emarkp
           \_ Maybe we should do what Lott did, which was to create multiple
              accounts in online forums to invent people to support his
              ridiculous position.  -tom
              \_ More on Lott:
                 "In his published research analysis, John Lott has
                 claimed that a 1997 survey he conducted found that
                 concealed handguns deterred crime without being fired
                 an astoundingly high 98% of the time. That claim
                 allowed Lott to explain away the fact that extremely
                 few self-defense uses of handguns are ever
                 reported. But when scholars began questioning his
                 survey results, Lott began a series of evasions that
                 culminated in the claim that his computer had crashed
                 and he had "lost" all the data. The University of
                 Chicago, where Lott claims he conducted the study,
                 has no record of it being conducted so Lott began
                 claiming that he funded it himself (and kept no
                 records) and that he used students to make the survey
                 calls (though no students have been identified who
                 participated). Indeed, no records of the survey exist
                 at all. Lott is now facing serious questions about
                 whether he fabricated the entire survey - raising
                 serious questions about his ethics and credibility."
                 \_ Wow, so a political group which opposes gun ownership
                    disagrees?  Stunning. -emarkp
                    \_ So essentially, any document or study which doesn't
                       support your position, or comes from a group which
                       doesn't support your position, is inherently
                       fraudulent?  Your job as a scientist in the Bush
                       Administration is secure!
                       \_ Sigh. No, I'm not arguing that. My point is that
                          rather than simply quoting mindlessly from the
                          proponent and critics is to read them both or search
                          for a third party.  For instance, the National
                          Acadamy of Science looked into the issue, and while
                          they say they can't support the conlusion that "more
                          guns = less crime" they *can* conclude that "more
                          guns != more crime". Since I've never read the book,
                          nor was I claiming it was correct, I really don't
                          care much, except the "debunking" cited above is from
                          a "lecturer" of CS (particular graphics--and his Java
                          applet has bugs) whereas Lott has more experience
                          with statistics.  Michelle Malkin has criticized Lott
                          as well, even though she agrees with him
                          ideologically. -emarkp
                          \_ Does that equal sign mean 'logical implication,'
                             'algebraic equality' or is it the equal sign they
                             use in structural equation models? -- ilyas
2007/4/16-18 [Reference/Military] UID:46308 Activity:high
        freepers unhappy GOP-backed bill defeated - would have allowed those
        already with a concealed carry permit to bring a firearm to Virginia
        public universities
        \_ Which of course might have allowed law-abiding students to kill the
           shooter before he did so much damage. -emarkp
           \_ Or shoot someone else trying to shoot the shooter.  Or shoot
              some random person by accident.  Or shoot someone 2 weeks from
              now cause they thought he might be about to shoot someone.
              Hypotheticals are never as clear cut as you want them to be.
              \_ That last one is just stupid.
           \_ I guess.  Maybe if law abiding citizens had watched more
              Steven Siegal movies.
              \_ What do you mean? Someone who owns a gun and knows how to use
                 it doesn't have to have an action movie choreographer in order
                 to threaten or use force. -emarkp
                 \_ I think he's saying that if they had watched Steven Segal
                    they wouldn't need a gun.
                    \_ I doubt watching SS movies turns people into action
                 \_ Yes, if only everyone on campus were packing, nothing bad
                    would have happened!  Because, of course, everyone is
                    well-trained in how to handle firearms, especially
                    when their classroom is unexpectedly turned into a shooting
                    gallery.  The idea of concealed-carry permits preventing
                    incidents like this is complete fantasy.  -tom
                    \_ So you're a prophet and I'm simply wrong?  The shooter
                       was wildly outnumbered by non-shooters, yet there was
                       nothing they could do because no one had a gun to level
                       the playing field. -emarkp
                       \_ I used to hang out with some guys were total
                          gun afficanados.  At first it seemed kinda harmless
                          but then I began to realize that most of them
                          dreamed of being in a situation (guy breaking into
                          their home, stopping a rape, whatever) where they
                          could legally blow someone away.  Not "I have this
                          for protection" but "I have this cause it would be
                          so cool if I actually got to use it on someone."
                          You know who is the last person I want "defending"
                          me?  Some psychopath who just wants to kill someone
                          but has enough sense to wait till it is legal.
                          \_ I bet they didn't say that and you're projecting
                             your own psychoses onto them.
                             \_ No, really there was a significant number of
                                that kept bringing up how they would use
                                x gun in y situation to stop z crime.  After
                                hearing that a few times it became really
                                obvious that they had spent way too much time
                                dreaming of exactly when they would get to
                                kill someone in the name of justice.
                                \_ Well, what's wrong with wanting to stop
                                   crimes? Were they talking about shooting
                                   people who break traffic laws? I bet cops
                                   think about these things. Are cops psychos
                                   who became cops so they could kill people?
                                   \_ The (to be fair few) cops I've known
                                      didn't spend hours at a time talking
                                      about just how they would go about
                                      gunning down someone if x happened.
                                      \_ Well the few gun "enthusiasts" or
                                         whatever I've known don't do that
                                         either. This argument has nowhere to
                                         go "I know people who like X and do Y
                                         therefore X is bad."
                          \_ You know, I'll bet the 30+ dead people in Virginia
                             wouldn't have minded having a few of these people
                             around. -emarkp
                             \_ You mean at the time he chained the class room
                                doors closed and lined people up to execute
                                them?  Nope, no sirree!  It would have only
                                added to the chaos and innocent people might
                                have been hurt if they all had guns.
                                \_ As opposed to all of them being shot without
                                   defense?  How can you claim "it would have
                                   only"?  One possible outcome is that the
                                   execution would have been stopped and fewer
                                   people died. -emarkp
                                   \_ Assuming that an armed populace would
                                      have made things better (an assumption
                                      I personally don't believe) do you
                                      really think this once every 10-20
                                      years event would make up for the daily
                                      statistics as every freak out there
                                      goes vigilante?
                                      \_ There are already plenty of people who
                                         have guns.  Why aren't we seeing
                                         "every freak out there going viglante"
                                         now? -emarkp
                                         \_ uh, we are.  Look at U.S. murder
                                            rates.  -tom
                                            \_ How many of those are gang
                                               related? How many murders are
                                               by otherwise law-abiding people
                                               suddenly going vigilante versus
                                               criminals who can get guns
                                               \_ How does some number of
                                                  these murders being "gang
                                                  related" ameliorate the
                                                  impact on society?
                                               \_ Well, at least 33.  (For
                                                  comparison, England and
                                                  Wales combined had a total of
                                                  50 gun homicides last year).
                                                  \_ Lying with statistics:
                                                     you're leaving out the
                                                     murderous Scots.
                                                     \_ ...who still have half
                                                        of the murder rate
                                                        of the U.S.  -tom
                       \_ How do you know no one had a gun?  -tom
                          \_ Actually, that's a good point.  I don't know that.
                             However, guns are explicitly prohibited on campus.
                             I think assuming that no one had a gun is a
                             reasonable assumption under the circumstances.
                             \_ OK, I'll also assume that the shooters didn't
                                have guns, then.  -tom
                                \_ Oh tom, you're so witty! -tom #1 fan
        \_ Some assumptions: 1) if it was legal to carry a concealed weapon
           enough of the students would be carrying at the right place at the
           right time. 2) If people were armed, instead of a 33 person
           massacre there wouldn't be 33 more murders spread out over a few
           years because now everyone is armed when they get angry.
           \_ If it was legal to carry, still not everyone would carry.
              People don't kill others just because they get angry. Using a gun
              on someone is like stabbing them to death with a knife. If you
              carried a knife around would you use it on people who made you
              angry? If you are that type of person you will probably wind up
              dead or in jail regardless of gun laws.
              \_ I'm pretty sure if the guy at VA Tech had a knife instead of
                 a gun, he wouldn't have killed 31 people.  -tom
2007/4/3-6 [Reference/Military] UID:46186 Activity:moderate
        Security screeners at Denver Int'l miss 90 PERECENT of simulated
        weapons that undercover agents brought into the airport.
        \_ They should just have taser guns next to every seat on the plane.
           The crowd could then overpower any likely number of terrorists.
           A well armed society is a safe society.
           \_ My heart tells me you're sarcastic, or trolling, but sadly
              my head tells me that there are many that really think this
              \_ Why are you sad about people thinking this way? -emarkp
                 \_ The idea that a "tazer on every seat" would promote the
                    general welfare is a sad one.
                    \_ You're repeating yourself. Why is it a sad idea?
                       \_ It makes me sad.  I don't have to explain myself.
                          Do you think it's a GOOD idea?  I wasn't trying
                          to reason about weather arming every passenger
                          to reason about whether arming every passenger
                          on an airplane is a good idea.
                          \_ Of course you don't /have/ to repeat yourself, I
                             was simply asking you to. Just because you feel
                             sad about something doesn't mean the sadness is
                             justified or should have any impact on public
                             discourse. I was just trying to figure out why
                             you're sad. -emarkp
                             \_ That we live in a society where people are
                                sufficiently frightened and alienated from
                                one another that they consider being armed
                                and (likely) a danger to themselves and
                                others a better outcome than the vanishingly
                                small chance that their plane might be
                                highjacked.  You don't have to agree with
                                this, of course.  Mmmkay?
                                \_ Why do you believe that people who are armed
                                   are a danger to themselves and others?
                                   \_ Jesus fucking christ.  Why are either of
                                      you taking this "arguement" seriously?
                                      A taser next to every seat?  Yeah, why
                                      not guns on every lamppost, attached to
                                      a chain to prevent theft while we're at
                                      it?  This isn't a debate about an armed
                                      society, this is a debate about a
                                      cartoon scenario.  Allowing individual
                                      passengers to carry weapons would be
                                      a different thing entireley.
                                      \_ Well, see, the tasers next to every
                                         seat is well targetted towards a
                                         particular situation: overpowering
                                         terrorists or other maniacs on a
                                         plane. Anyone using the tasers without
                                         sufficient reason would be easily
                                         identified and tasered themselves.
                                         Having guns on every lamppost would
                                         not work because a) lampposts are
                                         too far apart b) they are deadly
                                         c) they would be stolen d) their
                                         use could not be easily monitored.
                                         A plane flight is a contained
                                         environment with identified people.
                                         Honestly I did post the idea in jest,
                                         but I'm also interested in a serious
                                         treatment of it for argument's sake.
                                         In an environment where weapons are
                                         already introduced I do believe that
                                         the "armed society" principle is true.
                                         (And every society has weapons, even
                                         if it's martial artists or knife users
                                         or just large scary men with clubs.
                                         \_ So we're, as a nation, up at the
                                            top of violent crime rates etc
                                            because there... aren't enough
                                            weapons.  We just haven't reached
                                            the critical mass (no pun intended,
                                            seriously)?  Also, tasers aren't
                                            \_ They are "non lethal". As for
                                               crime, I think violent people
                                               are violent for reasons mostly
                                               unrelated to firearm
                                         You can't depend on the police to
                                         protect you. Is this sad? Yeah but
                                         it's the way of the world. Guns are
                                         the most civilized form of combat.)
                                         \_ Alright, I'll play along and just
                                            attack the most obvious and least
                                            potentially controversial aspect.
                                            I fly very frequently, and I'd say
                                            that about 10% of the time the
                                            tray table is somehow broken.  This
                                            consists of a piece of plastic and
                                            a hinge, and it's still not robust
                                            enough for the beating stuff takes
                                            on an airplane.  What exciting
                                            failure modes will we find in the
                                            hundreds of poorly maintained tasers
                                            sitting on a typical plane?  How
                                            many dumbass passengers will think
                                            they're electric shavers and taser
                                            themselves in the face?  Or get
                                            drunk and taser themselves in the
                                            ass?  Look, I support the right
                                            of weapons-owners to own weapons,
                                            but I think it's equally important
                                            to support the right of non-weapons
                                            owners to not own weapons. Me?  I
                                            train hard in hand to hand combat
                                            six days a week and have a knife
                                            fighting background, so if I see
                                            a terrorist on the plane, I'll leap
                                            into the aisle and try to kill him
                                            immediately with his own boxcutter.
                                      \_ It's the motd.  Kick back, laugh,
                                         enjoy.  This is just a proxy for
                                         the standard gun rights non-debate.
                                   \_ Statistics.
                                      \_ Freedom typically comes with a price.
                                         But tell your argument to victims of
                                         shootings who could have prevented the
                                         shootings with a gun.  Look at the
                                         statistics that show that when
                                         criminals believe the people around
                                         them are armed, they're less likely to
                                         commit violent crime. -emarkp
                                         \_ yeah, if those Critical Mass
                                            bicyclists had been armed, the
                                            driver would have been less
                                            likely to ram into them.  They
                                            were forced to use their bikes
                                            to defend themselves!  Guns for
                                            all!  -tom
                                            \_ Actually, it was the cyclists
                                               attacking the vehicle.  The
                                               lesson is, when you go to SF, be
                                               sure to be armed. -emarkp
                                               \_ Right, I'm sure the cyclists
                                                  just spontaneously decided
                                                  to attack.  They're like
                                                  pit bulls that way.  -tom
                                                  \_ From what I read, yes they
                                                     are. -emarkp
                                                     \_ from what you read,
                                                        you mean, the article
                                                        above where it says
                                                        the driver ran into
                                                        a cyclist and then
                                                        kept trying to drive
                                                        through the pack? -tom
                                                        \_ You mean the poor
                                                           out of town woman
                                                           surrounded by bikes
                                                           trying to get away
                                                           and out of the flow
                                                           of bikers madly
                                                           dashing through the
                                                           city violating
                                                           every safety and
                                                           traffic law on
                                                           the books?  Yeah,
                                                           that one.
                                                           \_ Poor out of town
                                                              woman who ran
                                                              ran into someone.
                                                              You forgot the
                                                              part where she
                                                              committed assault
                                                              with a deadly
                                                              weapon first.
                                                              \_ not first.
                                                                hit her car
                                                                she moved
                                                                two get
                                                                out of
                                                                their way
                                                                \_ Horseshit.
                                                                   Mass doesn't
                                                                   hit cars
                                                                   just for
                                         \_ Are you gonna pay for the taser
                                            training for every "air trafficker"
                                            out of your very own pocket?  That
                                            would be awesome.  My sister's been
                                            a real bitch lately, and I don't
                                            want to accidentally kill her.
                                         \_ please. don't bring facts into
                                            this.. let the sheeple liberals
                                            bend over and take it up the
                                            u know what.. they enjoy it
                                            \_ What an insightful comment.
2007/3/27-29 [Reference/Law/Court, Reference/Military] UID:46107 Activity:kinda low
3/26    "I support the First Amendment right to carry and bear arms," - Rudy
        Giuliani, on Sean Hannity's radio show.
        \_ Are there any other ultra-dense cities in the world
           where it is legal to carry guns?
        \_ Maybe he's trying to make the point that the pen is mightier than
           the sword!
           \_ only if said pen is stuck into the neck
              \- how would you like a pencil in your neck?
                 get off bob dole's lawn.
                 \_ ???
        \_ Thus far, the D.C. Cir. has little company in its holding that
           the 2d enumerates two rights, one for the states re militias,
           and one for the people. But no court has held that this this
           personal right is incorporated against the states.
           Maybe "Rudy" thinks the personal right would get more mileage
           in the courts if one were to claim that it was based on
           associational freedoms, "free exercise" rights (particularly
           if one was a sikh) or "expressive" political speech rights,
           all of which receive strict scrutiny and are incorporated
           against the states via the 14th.
           Or he just misspoke 1st for 2d.
           \_ "Rudy" misspoke?  Anyway....  If the USSC rules that the 2nd
              does mean 'personal right' to carry a weapon, will you accept
              that or come back and complain that BUSH's court has destroyed
              the USC?
              \_ If my comments conveyed the message that I believe the D.C.
                 Cir. incorrectly decided that the 2d enumerates a personal
                 right and a state right, I apologize. I think that the D.C.
                 Cir. correctly decided that the 2d enumerates a personal
                 I would completely support a USSC decision finding that
                 (1) the 2d enumerates a personal right; and
                 (2) this right was incorporated against the states via
                     the 14th.
                 Finding  a personal right w/o incorporation is, in my view,
                 insufficient b/c the states would remain free to regulate
                 arms. Since the 7th's jury trial in civil cases hasn't been
                 incorporated, conceivably the 2d's personal right may not be
                 \_ Thanks for clarifying.
2007/3/5-7 [Reference/Military] UID:45882 Activity:nil 66%like:45878
3/5     UK's Jedi's oppose sword ban:
        \_ Maybe we can get them an exemption for religious purposes.
        \_ let the brits beat each other up with their fists like
           civilized folks
           \_ "We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike.
               No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone."
2007/3/5 [Reference/Military] UID:45878 Activity:nil 66%like:45882
3/5     UK's Jedi's oppose ban on carrying imitation samurai swords:
2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45588 Activity:nil 100%like:45581 100%like:45586 100%like:45587
1/16    Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK: (
        [ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ]
2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45587 Activity:nil 100%like:45588
1/16    Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK: (
        [ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ]
2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45586 Activity:nil 100%like:45588
1/16    Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK: (
        [ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ]
2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45581 Activity:nil 100%like:45552 100%like:45588
1/16    Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK: (
        [ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ]
2007/1/16-25 [Reference/Military] UID:45552 Activity:nil 100%like:45581
1/16    Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK: (
        [ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ]
2006/12/18-21 [Reference/Military] UID:45462 Activity:low
12/17   Hey, no problem with registering your guns.  Unless of course a paper
        happens to publish the list.
        \_ A newspaper gathered and printed public info and you're upset?
2006/11/4-5 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45162 Activity:kinda low
11/03   I overheard this quote from NPR which I thought is amusing:
        "'Terror' is a tactic.  To say today's war is a war on 'Terror'
        is just like saying World War 2 is a war on 'Blitzkrieg.'"
        \_ Sounds pretty logical to me.
        \_ The US should stick with wars that have a definite
           win condition.  You can't win a war against a non proper noun.
2006/11/3-4 [Reference/Military] UID:45124 Activity:moderate
11/2    Do modern fighter jets still have machine guns, or are they
        mounted with missiles exclusively?
        \_ true dogfighting requires canons
        \_ true dogfighting requires cannons
           \_ Why don't jet fighers have rear-facing machine guns?  I think
              it's useful for deterring the other guy from trying to shoot you
              with their machine gun from your back.  The apparent range of a
              rear-facing gun should be longer than a forward-facing one,
              because the air speed, hence air resistance, for the bullets is
              \_ Guessing: targetting would be too difficult because the odds
                 of your enemy coming in straight behind you are very low
                 compared to your odds of lining him up in front.  For that
                 tiny chance of a rear-facing kill you'd have to carry extra
                 weight, extra targeting equipment for rear-firing, etc, etc.
                 The big WWII bombers had room for all that but fighters, both
                 old and new, both jet and props are a different animal.
                 \_ On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the Russians played
                    around with rear-firing missiles.
        \_ I think ever since Vietnam, when our F4's would run out
           of missiles and then have no armament for shooting down
           even more MIGs, all US jets have had cannons.
        \_ M61A1/A2 Vulcan machine gun. NOT a cannon. Russians use cannons.
           While a high-rate of fire, there is  limited number of rounds
           that can be carried before dry.
           \_ What's the difference between machine gun and cannon?  It's just
              bigger bullets and smaller bullets, right?
              \_ MG: Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat!  Or in a modern super high rate of
                 fire MG: brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!   Cannon: thump! thump! thump!
                 \_ This may be the single best post on today's motd.
                    \_ Yup.  Much more descriptive than rounds-per-second
                       numbers. :-)  -- !PP
                 \_ I see.
2006/10/20-23 [Reference/Military] UID:44885 Activity:nil
        Army Ranger Kevin Tillman (discharged '05), brother of Pat Tillman,
        both of whom signed up because of 9/11, writes about Pat's b-day.
        \_ another Democratic conspiracy !
           \_ This thread has been pulled. Anyone archived it?
              \_ there wasn't much anyway.  threads like this don't generate
                 many freeper posts.
           \_ It has been censored.
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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