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| 5/17 |
| 2013/3/15-5/10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54628 Activity:nil |
3/15 It's not the NRA that's crazy, it is everyone else:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/as2gpk2 |
| 2013/1/25-2/19 [Reference/Military] UID:54589 Activity:nil |
1/25 "Cupertino Middle School on Lockdown Following Report of Man With Gun"
http://www.csua.org/u/z26 (http://www.nbcbayarea.com
Thank you NRA, again.
\_ You're stretching on blaming the NRA for this one. A student
reports a phoney gun threat, and it's the NRA's fault because...
why, exactly? They've fought efforts to ban pretend guns? Help
me out, here.
\_ Good that it turns out to be false alarm. The fact that it was
made up wasn't known when I initially posted the URL two hours
ago. -- OP |
| 5/17 |
| 2012/2/29-3/26 [Reference/Military] UID:54320 Activity:nil |
2/29 "New Navy Railgun Tests Leading to Ship Superweapon by 2020"
http://www.csua.org/u/vmd
- Why are there fire and smoke when the bullet is propelled by EM
force?
- "The railgun could hit the same distant targets that Navy missiles
strike today, he said." Then what's the point of inventing this new
weapon?
\_ Railgun just shoots a projectile. A missile is a complex
mechanism with rockets, computers, fins, etc. Obviously,
just a dummy projectile is much cheaper.
\_ you can shoot metal slugs for 1/100000 the cost of
each missile!
\_ I see. Thanks to both. -- OP
- Which morons would shoot at their own proud insignia for target
practice? (See video at 0:40.)
\_ USA USA USA!!! Go morans!
\_ It's the aluminum casing reacting to the air.
- "The railgun could hit the same distant targets that Navy missiles
strike today, he said." Then what's the point of inventing this new
weapon?
\_ Railgun just shoots a projectile. A missile is a complex
mechanism with rockets, computers, fins, etc. Obviously,
just a dummy projectile is much cheaper.
\_ you can shoot metal slugs for 1/100000 the cost of
each missile!
\_ I see. Thanks to both. -- OP
\_ missiles are expensive, cannons much cheaper. However the
chemistry of explosions limits muzzle velocity and range. With
railgun they can achive much higher muzzle velocities with
relatively cheap projectiles.
- Which morons would shoot at their own proud insignia for target
practice? (See video at 0:40.)
\_ USA USA USA!!! Go morans! |
| 2012/1/8-2/6 [Reference/Military] UID:54283 Activity:nil |
1/8 "Amid tensions, U.S. Navy rescues Iranians from Somali pirates"
http://www.csua.org/u/v5i (news.yahoo.com)
"... the rescue operation was carried out by a ship belonging to the
very U.S. Navy aircraft carrier strike group that Iranian army
officials had earlier boasted of evicting from Gulf waters.
\_ "U.S. ship rescues Iranian fishermen - again"
http://www.csua.org/u/v65 (news.yahoo.com) |
| 2011/10/19-11/8 [Reference/Military] UID:54198 Activity:nil |
10/19 "Clerk kills would-be robber who grabbed daughter"
http://news.yahoo.com/clerk-kills-robber-grabbed-daughter-102801527.html
She must have been a sharpshooter or in the army or something. Who
would shoot a crook when he's holding your kid right next to him?
\_ This must be /. Didn't read TFA? The kid was in the
stroller and the thief grabbed the stroller, not the kid.
Either way, good for her. I imagine it was point blank range.
\_ Hmm, a follow-up article with different details:
http://www.csua.org/u/ujm
She actually shot him first before he grabbed the stroller. Still
good for her. -- OP |
| 2011/4/29-7/13 [Recreation/Food, Reference/Military] UID:54099 Activity:nil |
4/29 "NY inmate separates guards fighting over food"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_inmate_separates_guards
You read it right, and it's not a typo. |
| 2011/1/30-2/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Military] UID:54020 Activity:nil |
1/28 "China's CCTV news report was 'Top Gun' scene"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/chinamediamilitaryfilmoffbeat
'BEIJING (AFP) . China's state broadcaster is facing questions after
Internet users spotted that footage in a report on air force
manoeuvres in a national newscast was taken from the 1980s Hollywood
film "Top Gun".'
\_ Is McCain going to run again in 2012?
\_ Another article with the actual CCTV footage and the Top Gun movie
clip side-by-side: http://www.csua.org/u/sgo (news.yahoo.com)
\_ You're dangerous. |
| 2010/9/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:53967 Activity:low |
9/26 http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_16181812 Men armed with assault weapons barely cause a stir at Mineta San Jose International Airport How the hell does this happen without someone calling the cops? \_ Ha! I'm totally asking the guards at work about this tomorrow. -works at LLNL |
| 2010/8/30-9/30 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Media] UID:53944 Activity:nil |
8/30 Supersonic fighter jet that still flies for sale. Only $175k.
http://www.csua.org/u/rhm
But it burns $500 of fuel per minute when going supersonic.
\_ Stop telling me how to live you PC liberal. |
| 2010/7/26-8/25 [Reference/Military] UID:53898 Activity:low |
7/25 Friend of mine's thinking about joining the armed forces.
He was thinking either marines or army. I was going to say that
marines are far more dangerous, but then I stopped and thought of
the Three Block War vs. the Navy shelling the crap out of Iraq
before the marine had to storm it; is the notion reversed now?
Does the army has a tougher job/more dangerous job than the marines
(because occupying is no longer about occupying pro-western areas)?
\_ well discuss why he wants to do join the armed forces. If it is
about getting 'a job' then a 'safer' branch might be for him. If
he wants to go out and actually see combat action and shoot people
either of those will do.
\_ How old is he? Is he psychologically malleable enough for
brainwashing? Finally, does he have a college degree? -Army Vet
\_ He's 23, got a degree from san jose state.
\_ Does he want to be an officer? Is he planning on just doing
one tour, or is he thinking about making it a career? In
general, I agree with military brat below, the Air Force
treats its people the best, though I personally would
way rather be in the field than cooped up in a ship.
way rather be in the field than cooped up on a ship.
If you just want to do a short tour of duty as an enlisted
man to check it
man to check it out, then the shortest tour of duty is probably
advised, this usually means Army.
\_ I thought if you had a degree they put you as an officer?
Or is that an urban legend..
\_ A degree is no guarantee of commission, in fact one of
my seargents had a BS and was trying to get sent to OCS.
\_ How scary was your tour? (I told him airforce btw)
\_ I was in the 82nd Airborne, so it was pretty
tough, but I got a lot out of it.
\_ What's your take on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_block_war
It sounds like a total nightmare to me. :-(
\_ It sounds like a good recognition of what the US Army should
have realized a long time ago: the need to better train their
small unit leaders in subjects beyond just small arms and
fieldcraft.
\_ How about we train our mility to fight in guerilla style?
It seems like no national militaries do that. Is there a
reason?
\_ guerilla tactics don't accomplish our military goals.
\_ We did. a longtime ago. Look up "frontier fighting"
in any history book in the 80s and 90s. Doubt it
would be in any book now but yes, the US Armed forces
fought guerilla style wars against the British under
Mr. Founding Father Geo. Washington. It was of course
Highly successful against troops that were taught at
Blenheim or Aughrim other conv. theatre in Europe.
\_ Oh how the wheel turns.
\_ This is a U.S. myth; it was only after we got
better at using rank and file tactics that we
started winning battles. -tom
\_ Read up on "inflitration tactics" though this it not
strictly guerilla style. You can't really take and
hold territory that way.
\_ My whole family is military: Army and Air Force. Tell him to
join the Air Force. It's almost civil. Whatever you do, stay
out of the Army. It's the definition of grunt and they treat
you like it. I say this as a person with a Lieutenant Colonel
in his family and a West Point grad Colonel step-relative.
Marines isn't much better, but at least it is a small
fraternity of men who serve with honor. If I were to join I'd
choose Air Force and Navy in that order.
\_ My dad was Navy for 35 years; started out as E-1 and finished
as O-5; got sponsored for OCS and got his Bachelors/Masters
while in. If your buddy bears grudges, can't let things go,
and can't get goal-oriented, no branch of the service will
advance him. If your buddy is looking for travel, training,
and opportunity, go Navy, or, as above, Air Force.
\_ Why do you say "bears grudges"? Why is a forgiving nature
important to career success in the military?
\_ Military life, like civilian life, has plenty of
jerks, both as coworkers and bosses. Being
constructive with your frustration is fine and will
generally be rewarded; rising to bait, mouthing off,
and letting the minutiae get to you, however, will
hold you back. In theory, if you study your material,
pass advancement-oriented tests, and do your time,
you will advance; in reality, if you get written up
for fighting or otherwise being immature, you will
not advance. Buddy of mine, whip-smart, did great on
the tests, impressed the Captain and XO with his
reliability, and was headed for promotion, but he
couldn't keep his temper or let go of small slights,
and he got written up. After five years of failing
to advance, he gave up and bowed out. That's all I
mean.
\_ Yeah, I got into a lot of conflict with people when
I was in, I can see how that would not work if you
wanted to make a career out of it. |
| 2010/4/1-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53766 Activity:nil |
4/1 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100401/ap_on_re_af/af_piracy Pirates attacked a guided missile warship. What on earth were they thinking??? \_ "If we take *puff* over that huge *puuuuff* warship with the *puffffff* missiles we'll be able to *cough* take on anything and be really *puff cough* rich!" \_ :-) |
| 2009/10/22-11/3 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Sports] UID:53462 Activity:nil |
10/22 Warship bigger than football field sustaining 50mph for 4 hrs in
rough sea: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_speedy_warship |
| 2009/8/19-9/1 [Reference/Military] UID:53289 Activity:nil |
8/18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk_the_Slayer#2009_Sequel Wow. |
| 2009/7/4-16 [Science/Space, Reference/Military] UID:53112 Activity:nil |
7/4 Oxygen is presently showing "The Professional". Next is "Top Gun"
I wonder what is on Spike right now, maybe "beaches"?
\_ the professional is all about female empowerment by some guy
who doesn't want to put his dick into her, top gun is all for
aging chixx who haven't gotten over their blonde surfer fixation.
Go see Sunshine, it's better than anything Spike has shown recently
or Moon. Although of the two Sunshine is the better comedy. Then
again Moon has Fulcher.
\_ I liked Moon; I found Sunshine boring.
\_ isnt natalie portman 11 years old in The Professional? u r gross
\_ "who doesN'T want to put his dick into her."
reading comprehenshun is fun! |
| 2009/6/29-7/15 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53084 Activity:nil |
6/29 Browser war usage percentage:
http://business.swivel.com/charts/1809-Browser-version-market-share
\_ Why is Firefox 2.0 going up recently when 3.0 has already been
released for a year? |
| 2009/6/4-5 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53078 Activity:nil |
6/4 "The Turf War Behind the Monster Jellyfish Crop Circle"
http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/92634/?fp=1
How does someone craft a pattern with mowers (presumably) over a 600ft
area with such great accuracy?
\_ Crop circles are usually done by flattening the grain with boards.
-tom
\_ GPS? |
| 2009/5/26-6/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53046 Activity:low |
5/26 "Photo of US soldier in pink boxers turns iconic"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090522/ap_on_re_us/us_media_pink_boxers
Not a single mention about wearing a red shirt in a battlefield screams
"Shoot me!" and endangers one's comrades. He should have covered it up
or taken it off at the first opportunity.
\_ And how much war experiance do you have? Hint, playing Red Alert
doesn't count.
\_ Nor does watching "Star Trek".
\_ Dood, medics have to wear red crosses on their arms.
\_ Supposedly enemies shouldn't shoot the medics, so the red crosses
scream "DON'T shoot me!"
\_ Let me tell you, if I ever actually made it into combat,
the first thing I would have done is strip off that stupid
arm band. -former medic
\_ I heard that non-maimed army men get laid a lot because they
have many manly stories to tell and ladies love their strong
manly presence. Is this true? Is it?
\_ I don't know, but I got laid a lot in the co-ops. I don't
think it had anything to do with being ex-army, but
perhaps all that PT helped give me muscles.
\_ No, it's just that most women in the co-ops were
easy. I'd be afraid to sleep with most of them.
\_ Bill Cosby has a great routine on being a Corpsman in
Korea. First lesson: the North Koreans do not
Vietnam. First lesson: the North Vietnamese do not
recognize the Geneva Convention and so will actively
target Corpsmen. Cue a bunch of Corpsmen furiously
scrubbing the red cross off their helmets with Brillo
pads. |
| 2009/4/26-28 [Reference/Military] UID:52908 Activity:nil |
4/25 Another responsible gun owner
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090425/ap_on_re_us/us_georgia_professor_shooting
\_ But if everyone else had guns it could have turned into a raging
gun battle and that would have been kewl because we all know
the good guys win those. |
| 2009/4/5-13 [Reference/Military] UID:52803 Activity:kinda low |
4/5 "Friends have said Poplawski was concerned about his weapons being
seized during Barack Obama's presidency, and friends said he owned
several handguns and an AK-47 assault rifle"
Expect to see more of this from gun nuts.
http://tinyurl.com/dxul6b (SF Gate)
\_ Well, he was also a Neo-Nazi nut.
\_ Isn't Poplawski a RUSSIAN/POLISH name, the race that the Nazi
was trying to eradicate? It doesn't make any sense.
\_ no one said he was a BRILLIANT Nazi !
\_ I hate Vietnamese Nazis
\_ http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/06/obama-guns-ky |
| 2009/1/22-26 [Reference/Military] UID:52445 Activity:nil |
1/22 Virginia Tech student saws off another student's head with a kitchen
knife in a cafeteria. Several bystanders witness it but don't stop it.
Police there in less than 2 minutes. Good thing they have a gun ban!
http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/breaking/wb/192005
\_ What's with the violent VaTech students from the gun guy to
Michael Vick? My gf's sister went there and she and her circle
of friends seem normal, but apparently there is evil lurking.
\_ Damn. Killer is an Asian guy again also.
\- You may wish to see the movie: Dark Matter
\_ You are making assumption that lack of a gun ban would have a)
prevented this crime b) led to less violence in general. |
| 2008/12/16-29 [Reference/Military] UID:52260 Activity:nil |
12/15 Etiquette question: Mother's boyfriend claims to have a ccw permit.
Mother and boyfriend came over to visit family, boyfriend brought his
9mm into the house concealed in a fanny pack without asking or informing
anyone that he is armed. His actual ability with the gun is completely
unknown - he may actually even have a ccw permit. House has a new baby
in it and baby's mother (my gf) is strongly opposed to random guns in
the house (though she supports 2nd amendment and comes from a gun
owning family) due to her nearly dying as a child due to a gun
accident.
The question is, should I have called boyfriend out for this? I
accidentally discovered gun while putting his stuff in the closet,
decided not to say anything until they left, at which point gf flipped
out. He's a bit of a jackass in general so I mostly avoid confrontation
with him.
\_ You need to confront your mother, not the boyfriend. The bf
hardly knows you, and typical gun owners treat their guns
as babies so you're not going to get any mileage by talking
down on his babies. I would refuse to invite your mother,
period.
\_ Bullshit. Any responsible gun owner will respect someone's
wishes not to bring a gun into their house. If the BF can't
handle that he can wait in the car.
\_ Seconded.
\_ Not all gun owners are responsible. CCW does not imply
you're a mature grown up.
\_ If you aren't a mature grown up she probably doubly
doesn't want a dude with a gun in her house.
\_ As a CCW holder, I think you should have called him on it. My
personal rule is that I don't bring a gun into a home without
permission. Furthermore, I would never let it off my body. And my
carry weapon has a safety on the slide and an external hammer, so it
is impossible to go off without some effort. A CCW holder is
required to carry his permit if he's got his weapon, so you could
just ask to see it.
\_ Why even tell your baby's mama about this? Seems like it would
just rile her up for no reason. I would talk to this guy later,
one on one and just ask him to not bring guns into my house. If
you want to, you can wimp out and say "my baby's momma doesn't
like them." |
| 2008/12/8-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:52203 Activity:nil |
12/8 "Military jet crashes in San Diego neighborhood"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081208/ap_on_re_us/military_jet_crash
Gee. Reminds me of the movie "Blast from the Past".
\_ Turns out it's in University City, just off the 805. Lots of
nice houses around there.
\_ great, this didn't help the housing price any, isn't it? |
| 2008/12/8-12 [Reference/Military] UID:52201 Activity:nil |
12/8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA Plaxico tells us about gun safety. \_ http://www.hulu.com/watch/46943/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-jon-stewart-touches-kids---plaxico-burress \_ I'm waiting for him to tell us about gingivitis. |
| 2008/12/8-10 [Reference/Military] UID:52194 Activity:nil |
12/7 The good side of a bad economy:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081208/ap_on_re_us/gifts_for_guns
"In lean times, SoCal residents trade guns for food"
\_ This is really sad news. How are these poor people going to defend
themselves without their guns? |
| 2008/11/25-12/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52099 Activity:nil |
11/25 war nerd on pirates:
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-update-yo-ho-ho-and-a-tanker-of-crude
\_ link from there:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/nov/18/piracy-somalia-gallery?picture=339805476
\_ How long until some shipping company hires a bunch of mercenaries
to torch these guys?
\_ It's probably difficult to raid them and at the same time prevent
the pirates from torching the tanker ship with a gajillion
barrells of oil. The South Koreans and Taiwanese should quit
stripping all the fish from Somalia.
\_ Too late for that. Hm, how long does it take to burn that
much oil? Would it really make sense to scuttle the ship?
\_ The traditional way to deal with pirates is to burn/conquer
their ports. "... to the shores of Tripoli..." Where do you
think that line came from? Prez O will surely have to do
something about Somalia. |
| 2008/11/19 [Computer/SW/Languages/JavaScript, Reference/Military] UID:52048 Activity:nil 85%like:52047 |
11/19 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7737375.stm right after http://tinyurl.com/6oocct so i guess the saudis can tell who is terror and who isn't. lolz. |
| 2008/11/19 [Computer/SW/Languages/JavaScript, Reference/Military] UID:52047 Activity:nil 85%like:52048 |
11/19 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7737375.stm right after http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20081118/twl-uk-somalia-piracy-saudi-20a4dd5.html so i guess the saudis can tell who is terror and who isn't huh |
| 2008/11/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:52033 Activity:nil |
11/18 "Australia temporarily shuts down navy"
http://www.csua.org/u/myt (news.yahoo.com)
Is Japan interested in another Pearl Harbour?
\_ this is mess up. Australia *DOES* have pirate issues in her water |
| 2008/11/12-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:51955 Activity:nil 66%like:51950 |
11/12 http://preview.tinyurl.com/5ajv4e [la times] SCOTUS hates whales. \_ Save the whales - collect the entire set. For those who are interested, here is a link to the opinion: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1239.pdf |
| 2008/11/12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:51950 Activity:nil 66%like:51955 |
11/12 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-na-scotus13-2008nov13,0,4304606.story USSC hates whales. |
| 2008/10/30-31 [Reference/Military] UID:51741 Activity:kinda low |
10/30 I need to stock up on guns. Obama is going to outlaw guns
-Republican
\_ I don't think Obama is particularly pro or anti gun.
\_ Yes, buy guns, gold and beans and move into your bomb shelter
for the next four years.
\_ I'd go with 40 just to be safe. |
| 2008/10/21-26 [Reference/Military] UID:51595 Activity:low |
10/20 How come aircraft like A-10 can disable a modern tank with a 30mm
cannon while tanks need 125mm or larger guns to penetrate each other's
armor?
\_ That's a good question. Maybe it's the angle of the incoming
shells compared to the armor? The machine gun effect? Shorter
range on the 30mm gun?
\_ It's about range and rate of engagement, though I can't find a
citation. 3km+ vs. ~1.2 km. Also compare how many kills with a
fully loaded A-10 vs. an M1A1.
\_ Insurgents don't have tanks.
\_ depleted uranium rounds
\_ Maybe it's also because tanks are more havily armoured on the sides
(against other tanks and RPGs) than on the top?
\_ Yes, tanks generally have weaker armor on top and below, making
them more vulnerable to vertical fire. Also their armor is
sloped, making it more effective against horizontal ground fire
than vertical fire. Their most effective armor is designed to
protect against frontal fire.
\_ Which is the idea behind the Javelin
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/javelin
\_ This is TOTALLY COOL. I love our military.
\_ Cf. its inspiration, the Roman pila (singular: pilum).
\_ Cf. its inspiration, the Roman Plumbata. |
| 2008/10/14-17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Reference/Military] UID:51529 Activity:low |
10/14 This is why people shouldn't own guns: -anti-gun nut
http://cbs2.com/local/Porter.Ranch.Murder.2.833728.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-porterranch7-2008oct07,0,7425239.story
\_ The guy made 1.2 mil (convert paper to money), then another
0.5 mil from the house. How could he have just run out of
money? This is baffling. I hope he didn't blow it up on hookers.
\_ On margin investments are how you make (and lose) 1.2 mil.
\_ You're an idiot. You probably think the $50M to put up a net on the
GG bridge is a good investment?
\_ Jumping off the bridge: jumper dies
Shooting guns: someone may grab your gun, or you go nuts
and shoot innocent people, or your child shoots accidentally
\_ Jumping off the bridge: Causes a traffic jam,
politicians waste time and money talking about it.
Shoots self: No traffic jam, politicians waste time
and money talking about it anyway.
The bigger picture, of course, is that it is
completely acceptable loss to the gains, just like
allowing people to have massive weapons that are
cars.
\_ What is worse, causing traffic jam or accidentally
or intentionally killing your family members and
by-standers because you went balistic?
\_ You could probably kill a bunch of people with a car
if you decided to do so.
\_ right. Exactly. People also shouldn't have cars, or swimming pools
Or be allowed to take their kids to mcdonalds. Why don't all these
fools see how right we are and how wrong they are. |
| 2008/10/13-15 [Reference/Military] UID:51496 Activity:nil |
10/13 Laserbolts are flung from Vader's TIE fighter, connecting with Red
Leader's Rebel X-wing fighter. Red Leader buys it, creating a
tremendous explosion far below. He screams and is destroyed. |
| 2008/9/25-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:51297 Activity:low |
9/25 have you called/e-mailed your congresscritter today?
remember: barney frank is a slimebucket
\_ And George Bush is a War Hero: Mission Accomplished! Do you still
call them Freedom Fries, I am kind of curious.
\_ And George Bush is a War Hero, so of course none of this is
his fault. |
| 2008/9/17-19 [Science, Reference/Military] UID:51211 Activity:nil |
9/17 did anyone watch Generation Kill? The 'gay' Marine is a real Marine,
and was in the unit Generation Kill is about. |
| 2008/8/28-9/3 [Reference/Military] UID:50992 Activity:nil |
8/28 Another example of why concealed carry is a good idea, especially
if you are a drug dealer:
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_10104142?source=most_viewed
\_ This is the second story like this I've read recently, for heaven's
sakes people, don't try to use a fake gun in a robbery!
\_ People do that all the time. Guns are expensive. Toys aren't. |
| 2008/8/22-29 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:50943 Activity:nil |
8/22 Cindy McCain - The only way to get around Arizona is a private plane!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/14/cindy-mccain-in-arizona-t_n_112695.html
\_ She must have gotten that advice from Al Gore.
\_ What is the carbon footprint of owning 7 homes? Lawn,
heat, AC, maintenance, wash, etc etc?
\_ Pretty impressive that she managed to spend 50-100 hours getting
training without him noticing. |
| 2008/7/30-8/5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:50731 Activity:moderate |
7/30 Can I CCW a gun into say, a post office?
\_ no.
How about other government buildings?
\_ no.
\_ Incorrect. State or City gov't buildings are covered by CCW.
\_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station
or courthouse. I'll be there with the camera taking pictures
of your surprise.
\_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station or
courthouse. I'll be there with the camera taking pictures of
your surprise.
\_ A CCW covers any local or state building or meeting
required to be open to the public.
\_ I dunno, cops go into these things all the time and they
are all armed. They just take off their side arms when
they go through the metal detector. I imagine it would
go more or less like that, in fact most cops would probably
just think you were undercover or something.
\_ right, except they actually have real badges
and you have a frigging commoner's CCW permit
\_ Of course I've *been* in a courthouse with a CCW
while carrying, no problem. (No metal detector
either.)
\_ Where? San Diego and most SFBA Courthouses screen
with metal detectors.
What happens when you have to go through the airport and they scan
you, can you just show them your CCW permit and carry your gun inside
the building?
\_ you go to jail. actually i lied. they take you to stupid
person's jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
\_ you go to jail. actually i lied. they take you to dumbass
jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
\_ Read the CA law. The permit is for CA, not for federal property.
Airports have specific regulations about guns.
\_ In an airport, a CCW covers you up to the sterile area. No
exceptions for firearms beyond that (see CA penal code 171.5(b)(1))
\_ If you're dumb enough to carry a gun to an airport these days,
I think you should stay home.
\_ But I want to be a hero like emarkp and save innocent
people from TERRORISTS!!! -emarkp #1 fan |
| 2008/7/28-8/3 [Transportation/Car, Reference/Military] UID:50710 Activity:nil |
7/28 The impossibility of getting a CCW and the potential for accidents
and great harm from handguns makes ownership very unattractive.
I'm now thinking of getting a taser. Do people need to register
tasers? Can they be carried in automobiles? CCW tasers?
\_ A taser is considered a loaded firearm. (People v. Heffner)
\_ It can't be. It is projectile using COMPRESSED AIR and
should not be subjected to gun-powder related weapons.
\_ Seriously, can you carry a taser in your car? Can you
conceal it?
\_ HEFFNER held that a taser is a firearm for the purposes
of Penal Code 12031, which makes it a misdemeanor to carry
a loaded firearm on your person or in a vehicle. If you
could find some way of unloading your taser, then you
probably could carry it in your car or conceal it. Also
there are several exceptions to 12031. One of these
applies to people who have a permit to carry a concealed
weapon. |
| 2008/7/24-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Military] UID:50674 Activity:kinda low |
7/24 "Killings turn focus on San Francisco sanctuary law"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080724/ap_on_re_us/road_rage_killing
"SAN FRANCISCO - The scene repeats itself daily on city streets: a
driver gets stuck bumper to bumper, blocking an intersection and
preventing another car from turning left.
But authorities say that was enough to cause Edwin Ramos to unload an
AK-47 assault weapon on a man and his two sons, killing them.
The victims' family learned that Ramos had been arrested at least
three times before the shooting and evaded deportation, largely
because of San Francisco's sanctuary status.
The Bolognas' relatives say Ramos apparently benefited from the policy
when he reportedly was convicted twice of felonies in 2003 and 2004
but never was turned over for deportation."
\_ Are you the same person freaking out over the police state taking
your guns away?
\_ No, that was me. This guy is a violent felon who shouldn't have
been in the country to begin with. And gun laws don't stop
criminals from having guns. It's nearly impossible to legally
have an AK-47 in CA.
\_ WHEN did this event happen? July 24th? Or earlier?
\_ No, this happened a few weeks ago.
\_ So I'm getting two ideas:
1) immigrants = BAD!!!
2) CCW = GOOD!
\_ 1) Wrong. ILLEGAL immigrants = BAD. The sanctuary law in
SF is not about legal immigrants.
\_ People who gridlock intersections deserve to be beaten, but this
is carrying things a bit too far.
\_ Fucking stupid US law. This person would be executed by the
time you read this post in good old China. Human right my
fucking ass. No wonder your prisons are over crowded,
because of idiots who insist that it's cheaper to keep
criminals in Jail than a bullet in the head. Guys like this
should have their fingers chopped off one by one. -ray
\_ Well, in CA it IS cheaper to keep them in jail, but that's just
because anti-death penalty types have made it so. 30 years
of lawyer fees >>> 60 years of prisoner room and board. |
| 2008/7/24-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Reference/Military] UID:50673 Activity:nil |
7/24 Why does Pakistan need a $230m boost to its air force?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7523856.stm
Seriously, F-16s against the Taliban? Really?
\_ You don't know anything about CAS.
\_ Enlighten me.
\_ Okay, then explain to me why using an F-16 as a bomb truck is
sensible, or why an F-16 is a more suitable choice for a CAS
role than something like an A-10 or a Super Tucano. |
| 2008/7/22-28 [Reference/Military] UID:50654 Activity:moderate |
7/22 I went to a gun range last week with a bunch of co-workers as part
of the group offsite event and I gained a lot of appreciation for
shooting guns. I have a few questions:
1) How hard is it to get a CCW permit?
2) How do you find out what % and # of people in SF have a permit?
3) Does there exist a range that lets you rent their guns without:
i) having to own a gun
ii) having to bring a friend with you if you don't have one?
4) If I buy a gun for recreational purpose (not for defense but
for weekend practice), do I need to register it, and will other
people (e.g. your spouse, neighbor, coworkers) find out?
5) What is a legal way to transport your gun in your car and/or
airplane if you don't have a CCW permit? For car-- trunk? Glove
compartment?
\_ If you get an exensive gun, it is best to carry it in a dark
velvet bag. -lewis
\_ what is considered expensive? 500? 1000?
\_ http://www.calguns.net
\_ Carry a gun and you become a liability 99.99% of the time.
Don't carry a gun, you'll only be robbed 0.01% of the time.
I mean, assume you're in a safe place.
Which one is more desirable? The latter of course.
Don't be a dumbass like emarkp. Don't carry a gun.
\_ And you got your 99.99% and 0.01% numbers from....? -emarkp
\_ Obviously from his ass. I wonder if he thinks cops with
guns are a liability also. And if not if he is one the
morons who believes that if you take an idiot and "train"
him, he stops being an idiot. -crebbs
\_ Even if it were 95% vs 5%, the argument holds.
You totally missed the point, dumb fuck.
\_ Except that your 95% number is patently absurd. The very
large set of law abiding citizens with CCW permits in
the US are not causing problems 95% of the time when they
carry a concealed firearm.
\_ Yet it only takes 0.0001% of problem to occur to
mess up whatever point you're trying to make.
\_ "very large set"? Really? What are the actual numbers
involved? -!pp
\_ Dude, seriously, Google is your friend.
\_ Is this your first time shooting? Take a gun safety course
first, before doing anything else. I think you should put
at least 1000 rounds into a Ron Paul voter before you even consider
buying one for yourself. -ex-military
\_ 1) In CA, it depends on county--in SF, pretty much impossible
2) Contact the county sheriff
3) Yes
4) All guns have to be registered
\_wrong.. rifles and semi auto rifles do not have to be
only assault rifles
\_ Sorry, all handguns. -emarkp
\_ wrong. assault *weapons* have to be registered, and that's
a larger set than assault *rifles* (which would require not
merely registration, but a class 3 FFL). "assault rifle"
has actual meaning in firearms nomenclature, while "assault
weapon" is a political term referring to anything that
politicians think looks scary (including cosmetic
similarities to assault rifles).
\_ No tips on how to keep your guns hidden from your spouse?
\_ Where can I find this information? I'd like to generate
a Google heat map showing where registered gun owners
are, similar to the Megan Law offender web site.
5) Guns must be transported in a locked container. The trunk
qualifies, as well as a hard or soft case with a lock.
6) A good automatic handgun will cost $600-$1000.
\_ The glove compartment, however, and any other biult in box,
even if locked, specifically DOES NOT qualify. -phuqm
6) A good automatic handgun will cost $600-$1000. Revolver may be
less.
-emarkp
\_ First, go and get your CA Handgun Safety Certificate. It is required
before buying a gun here and teaches a lot of the info you want.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo.php
I don't think a class is needed, but I guess it might help you
avoid hurting yourself when you fire it (don't put your hand in the
way of the slide).
\_ Unfortunately, the test for the cert is useless. You can pass
with common sense. The best thing is to have a friend go over
some safety tips with you, and use common sense: never point a
gun at anything you don't want to shoot, keep it locked up and
out of the reach of children, etc. -emarkp
\_ The NRA offers a lot of great free classes:
\_ But handgun safety, like most safety, is common sense. The
legal info about transporting stuff etc. is in the "study
guide" so it's up to you to learn it, even though the actual
test is kind of a joke.
\_ The best guide I've seen about the legal side of things is
"How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail"
It covers written and case law, in plain English, and in
detail. -emarkp
\_ Ha ha ha ha ha. Don't own a gun, rarely have to
worry about anything.
\_ Ha ha ha?
\_ The NRA offers a lot of great classes:
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp
\_ In California, (1) tends to be easier in the rural counties.
Otherwise, you basically need political connections (ie, contribute
heavily to the sheriff's reelection capaign, or be an elected
heavily to the sherriff's reelection capaign, or be an elected
official yourself).
\_ How the hell did emarkp get a CCW then?
\_ I still want to know if emarkp carries a concealed weapon into
temple. |
| 2008/7/22-28 [Reference/Military] UID:50652 Activity:nil |
7/22 House member doesn't like resident, has his guns taken away. See why
we need a 2nd amendment?
http://tinyurl.com/6a83d2
\_ Bwahaha, more like loonie visits Rep's office, makes ruckus, gets
911 called on his ass, guns confiscated as part of investigation.
\_ And why were his guns confiscated?
\_ Don't know. At a guess, perhaps he said something vaguely
threatening? Or perhaps the cops over-reacted, and now he
can sue to get his guns back. |
| 2008/7/21-23 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50645 Activity:nil |
7/21 So, is it a civil war?
\_ Is what a civil war? |
| 2008/7/18-23 [Reference/Military] UID:50617 Activity:nil |
7/18 Heller wins SCOTUS, DC still refuses to register his handgun
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74036&catid=158
\_ "A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading
weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading
guns are outlawed because they are grouped with machine guns."
Apart from revolvers, chain-ammo-fed MGs/Gatling Guns, and top-
loaded sniper rifles, what guns are _not_ bottom-loading? Muskets?
\_ Shotguns?
\_ Pump action shotguns load from bottom.
\_ The one I used loaded from the side.
\_ So, a semi-auto is OK if you hold in gangsta' style?
\_ hunting rifles?
\_ Most hunting rifles are semi-automatic, and use a magazine.
Even bolt-action rifles often load from a magazine.
\_ shrug, I'm going with image results from what google
returns for "hunting rifle"
\_ Yes, most of those rifles use a magazine.
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten_gun ? |
| 2008/7/18-23 [Reference/Military] UID:50615 Activity:nil |
7/18 I love guns, but only old guns. I'd love to try out muskets, you
know, those things that won us our freedom. I'd also love to try out
Washington era canons, those that were used to scare off the bloody
reds. Where can I go to shoot muskets and canons?
\_ Civil war re-enactments.
\_ There's an antique store, I think it's called Sergent's Surplus
or something in Oakland? I have no idea what the legality is
wrt to owning an antique ball/musket load weapon, I'm guessing
you're not really required to register since it's so hard to
kill someone with it. I mean, who wants to carry black powder,
flint, loader, balls, etc etc? It's a drag!
\_ A lot of people hunt with muzzle loaders. Typically there are
separate licensing requirements.
\_ Yeah, they really make drivebys inconvenient. Thank Jesus the
supreme court has upheld our God-given rights to have assault
rifles instead. |
| 2008/7/8 [Transportation/Bicycle, Reference/Military] UID:50502 Activity:high |
7/8 Hey tom, what do you think of my carrying a gun on my bike?
\_ isn't there a law wrt to gun in the vehicle?
\_ I have a CCW permit |
| 2008/7/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:50489 Activity:kinda low |
7/7 Reiser leads police to body of Nina
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6xwgsg [sfgate]
\_ i can't believe this is the same reiser of ReiserFS
\_ then you never met him.
\_ does he have Asperger's Syndrome and carry a gun like emarkp?
\_ At least he doesn't think God talks to him.
\_ emarkp is a nice enough guy in person, he just has a
ridiculous world view. Reiser is insane. -tom
\_ Almost all Aspies appear to be nice but have really
really warped perception of the world view. Also,
almost all Aspies deny that they are Aspies despite
rigorous clinical checks. Yeah, typical Aspies.
\_ carrying your gun into church isnt aspie, it's just stupid.
\_ Unless it saves your life and the lives of others.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=3980889&page=1
or, another
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5rwuem
-emarkp
\_ ok i'll give you that. if you live South Africa, you probably
need to carry a gun in some places. I live in AMERICA.
\_ carrying a gun makes the carrier feel safe and everyone
else unsafe. Arms race, anyone?
\_ Cool. I wonder if taser would help in this case. Also,
how carrying a handgun helps in cases like the
North Hollywood shootout?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuhP2Y18CkI
\_ emarkp's awesome CCW handgun sure would have helped
\_ typical religious nutcase takes 1-2 examples and say
"yes it works!" and also cry out "statistics lie!"
Typical Aspies also don't change their view point once
they've made up their mind. Hello Aspie emarkp!
\_ Hi anonymous troll! You said "it's just stupid". I post
counter-example. You go ad hominem. Thanks for making my
point. -emarkp
\_ http://www.wjactv.com/news/16728776/detail.html
Two dead after Clearfield church shooting
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16639564/detail.html
Shooting outside Cobb church leaves 1 dead
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080625/NEWS03/80625083/1005
Pontiac teen sought for allegedly killing boy at church
\_ Oh, this is a good one. What is a 16-yr old doing with
a handgun?
<http://http://www.nbc5i.com/news/16659670/detail.html
One dead after police-involved shooting at Rockwell Church
And that's just a trivial Google News search from the
past month. I'll also point out that the Colorado Springs
incident was an *armed security guard*, which is a lot
different than some random dweeb with a gun. -tom
\_ Incorrectly reported. She's a *volunteer*.
\_ She's a volunteer security guard.
\_ These events are pretty random. The first one is about a
guy who went and killed the janitor at a church because the
guy was having an affair with his wife. The second is a
guy driving up to a church parking lot and shooting someone
there. The third was a guy who drove into a church parking
lot and pointed a gun at the officer, who shot the guy
dead. What do these have to do with anything?
\_ I thought the topic was gun deaths.
\_ The claim above was that "carrying your gun into
church" was stupid. |
| 2008/7/7-9 [Reference/Military] UID:50487 Activity:nil 71%like:50485 |
7/7 I didn't know Mayor Daley had a soda account
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5kbjqh [washington post]
\_ Wow, there are some amazing quotes in here.
"Clearly, the bad guys can get guns...[but]... I shudder at the
thought of everyone packing heat." This guy is literally in favor
of only criminals having guns?
"Just because it's constitutional doesn't mean it should be
allowed." Okay.... |
| 2008/7/7 [Reference/Military] UID:50485 Activity:nil 71%like:50487 |
7/7 I didn't know Mayor Daley had a soda account
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/05/AR2008070501736.html
\_ Wow, there are some amazing quotes in here.
"Clearly, the bad guys can get guns...[but]... I shudder at the
thought of everyone packing heat." This guy is literally in favor
of only criminals having guns?
"Just because it's constitutional doesn't mean it should be
allowed." Okay.... |
| 2008/7/5-9 [Reference/Military] UID:50476 Activity:nil |
7/5 http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/05/body-armor-developer.html *This* is why you carry a gun. \_ This is really really awesome. On the other hand, this is the wild wild DETROIT, not the safe People's Republic of California \_ Ironically it is the places with highest crime that you are most likely to be forbidden to have or carry a gun. \_ Hmm, I think perhaps you don't understand irony. \_ Is it ironic that there is still high gun violence in where guns are forbidden? |
| 2008/6/30-7/14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50425 Activity:nil |
6/30 http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh Bush Administration aiming the US toward war with Iran. McCain would go along. Voting for McCain might get us into a war with Iran. |
| 2008/6/30-7/14 [Reference/Military] UID:50421 Activity:nil |
6/30 Nightline did a segment on open carry. Pretty good actually.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmZic2VFGy
\_ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmZic2VFGyI -niloc
\_ I'm waiting for http://opensex.org, http://openweed.org, and http://openmolest.org.
We should have all of these things just like the good old west.
\_ Ha ha! The 2nd ammendment protects the right to bear
arms. It does not promote whoremongering, stupidity,
and perversion.
\_ And remember, kids, Scalia's Opinion opined as to the
nature of modern arms, so if we ever go to phazers set
to stun, your projectile weapon stops being a right. |
| 2008/6/30-7/14 [Reference/Military] UID:50418 Activity:nil |
6/30 Gun-fearing lefty changes to Armed Feminist
http://www.gunowners.org/sk0101.htm
\_ Dear Gun Owners Forum, I never thought it would happen to me, but... |
| 2008/6/26-30 [Reference/Military] UID:50383 Activity:nil |
6/26 Details aren't out yet, but SCOTUS has ruled:
Guns are an individual right.
\_ Details are out: http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/heller-opinion
In a nutshell: "you can have a reasonable loaded gun in your house
\_ What is "reasonable loaded"? 8 rounds? 20? 100 round
extender? How about one shell with crazy ass projectiles?
\_ Yes, welcome to the next level of constitutional arguments.
\_ phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range -t101
without a trigger lock, so long as you meet reasonable licensing
requirements."
It's a remarkably restrained opinion from Scalia. More power to
him.
\- it was a 5-4 decision. the restraint may
say more about "the rule of five"
[BRENNAN J.: "if you get 5, you rule"]
than ASCALIA's "moderation". but yeah, i
agree there were various narrowing
options ... although maybe that's to keep
the guns away from the scary people. --psb
\_ that's fine. i can have my handgun without a trigger lock
and my 50 BMG with a trigger lock. kewl
\_ Given how relatively restrained it is, I'm shocked there are 4
dissenting justices. -emarkp
\_ how many shells do you put in your loaded gun?
\_ In CA I'm only allowed a 10-round magazine. -emarkp
\_ I will reserve judgment on this until I read the dissenting
opinions. Perhaps you should do the same.
\_ Okay, read: Breyer's arguing from a different interpreta-
tion of 2ndA; in the context of his reading, his arguments
hold. In light of the various issues at hand, it's not
that shocking to me that there would be 4 dissenting
Justices; this is a complicated issue and deserves scrutiny
and discussion.
\_ Of course individuals have a Constitutional right to firearms as
both a check against govt tyranny and for self-protection. Legal
disputes are about where you can carry what level of lethal
firepower.
- On one extreme you can only have a single shotgun in the home with
child locks within a locked safe and for which you need to
re-permit every year
- On the other extreme any 21-year-old can openly carry one fully
automatic weapon with matching handgun and clip extender as long
as the safeties are always engaged. Firearms must be secured
in a locked gun rack in your cube when you're away, of course. |
| 2008/6/8-12 [Reference/Military] UID:50183 Activity:moderate |
6/8 http://opencarry.org \_ I dare you to open carry in the following 3 places: -Disneyland or Great America -San Francisco -UC Berkeley \_ Awesome. We bringing back posses and lynchmobs while we're at it? \_ And you see these as equivalent how? \_ Wild West-style packing -> Wild West-style living \_ You do know that in CA open carry is legal if the gun isn't loaded, right? -emarkp \_ Would be a pretty stupid thing to do and will probably get you killed. \_ From what I hear, it's not dangerous, but it does give you an opportunity to educate the LEOs. It's an alternative for people who really need a firearm (EMTs) but who are denied concealed carry permits. -emarkp \_ Walk around with a gun all day long and see how long it takes before someone shoots your ass. Plus, you are going to have LEOs on your ass all day long as people report an idiot with a gun. \_ I would like you to walk around your municipality with a six gun strapped to your side and report back your findings. I am genuinely curious. -ausman \_ I have a CCW, and don't need to try this. Because so many counties deny all CCW's (unless you're a friend of the sheriff) open carry is becoming more common. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=104906 -emarkp \_ Do you bring gun into Temple? \_ Do you open carry at church? \_ Again, I have a CCW, so don't need to open carry ever. -emarkp \_ You carry a gun under your shirt, into temple? Jesus Christ. \_ Guns are scary! -- ilyas \_ Your reading comprehension is weak. Plus, if I do, it might come in handy. It sure did for Jeanne Assam. Also, the phrase "into temple" is nonsensical. -emarkp \_ That is an interesting article. When I was in Jerusalem, I saw people openly carrying firearms all the time. In Texas, most bars have a sign at the door that says "no firearms." CA is not really like that, though. \_ That must be why Jerusalem and Texas are such safe places to live. \_ E_CAUSALITY \_ Stupid. "But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood. An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him." What a waste of officers' time and taxpayers' dollars and possibly getting yourself killed by a jumpy cop to boot. The article had yahoos talking about feeling brave when being confronted by LEOs. Maybe they should stop wasting LEO time and keep the gun at home where it might be more good than trouble. \_ How soon will this citizen own the police department? \_ Let me guess, you are a big fan of tort reform? \_ Yep, and controlling abuse of the gov't. \_ About as likely as a bullet in his brain. |
| 2008/6/3-5 [Reference/Military] UID:50133 Activity:low |
6/2 Just a heads-up on what passed in the CA Assembly the other day:
AB 2062
"The bill would establish a database maintained by the department
to serve as a registry of handgun ammunition vendors.
"This bill would require that commencing July 1, 2009, unless
specifically excluded, no person shall sell or transfer more than 50
rounds of handgun ammunition in any month unless they are he or she is
registered as a handgun ammunition vendor, as defined. The bill would
also require these vendors to obtain a background clearance for those
employees who would handle ammunition in the course and scope of their
employment. The bill would require the Department of Justice to
maintain a registry of registered handgun ammunition vendors, as
specified. Violation of these provisions, as specified, would be a
misdemeanor.
"This bill would, subject to exceptions, commencing July 1, 2009,
require certain ammunition vendors to obtain a thumbprint and other
information from ammunition purchasers, and would require submission of
that information to the Department of Justice, as specified. A
violation of these provisions would be a misdemeanor."
\_ Do they use mysql or postgres?
\_ But you can still buy ammunition without without being tracked,
right? I don't really see how this new regulation can help with
gun violence. I think a more effective (but more controversial)
method would be to track or go as far as running a background
check on the buyers, not the sellers.
\_ You missed the whole thumbprint thing? |
| 2008/5/30-6/2 [Reference/Military] UID:50099 Activity:moderate |
5/30 Mass Shooting Stopped by CCW Permit Holder
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880526010
\_ See, here's the way I see CCW holders--it's like vaccinations. It's
individual protection, plus herd protection. -emarkp
\_ except there is one minor problem. The vaccine is still
not perfected, and the number of people it saves is still
less than the number of people it kills. It addition, there's
a huge possibility of someone going crazy after receiving the
vaccination. There's a better vaccine out there. TASER.
\_ is gun ownership pride a Mormon thing, or an emarkp thing?
\_ Until one of these CCW holders goes berserk and shoots up a
mall or, worse, shoots an innocent bystander when trying to
play hero.
\_ Exactly my point earier. Saved by B <<< Saved by A,
where A = CCW holder saving lives and
B = CCW holder going bezerk
I understand gun holders are passionate about saving
and defending lives but statistics say otherwise.
\_ what statistics? the one's out your ass?
chances are another CCW will blow the shit out of the
very rare berkeker CCW
very rare berserker CCW
\_ http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ccw
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/?page=conctruth&menu=gvr
Now feel free to debunk or defend your 2nd, but
you'll still sound like a major fucking idiot.
\_ brady campaign? that commie group? gimme a break
\_ I can't find the shooting rampage by CCW holder stats
you promised.
\_ I'm going to believe the stats from a rabidly anti-gun
group? So, I guess you're going to believe the Bush
administration on WMDs, right?
Much of this is wrong. The Texas CCW stuff has been
discredited--most arrests of CCW holders were for
non-violent crimes, and only 100/215K felony
convictions of CCW holders occurred (in 2000).
\_ Why are crime rates higher in areas which have banned
guns? (In DC for instance, rates of violence went up
after the handgun ban.)
\_ maybe it's a US only thing. countries with strict
gun laws have almost no gun crimes for some reason
\_ Scotland has recently said that since they
banned handguns 10 years ago, attempted
homicides with guns have *tripled*. Where are
your stats?
\_ they just have higher violent crime. they use
knives and bats.. and rape is easier.. look at
Austrialia.. they used to have guns. now their
have high violent crime
\_ GUNS BAD! PEACE GOOD! HEY HO! HEY HO WE DON'T
NEED NO GUNS NO MO'!
\_ Does it say that the shooter was CCW? I didn't see that
\_ "Investigators say a feud between two local families is behind the
early-morning shooting inside the bar."
http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378732&nav=menu549_2
Good on armed Samaritan for capping this clown. Mind you, if they
didn't hand out guns along with liquor in Nevada, this might have
just been a knife fight anyway. |
| 2008/5/30-31 [Reference/Military] UID:50095 Activity:nil |
5/29 I don't want to own a gun but I'd like to go to the range to shoot
for fun. However, all the range I've been to requires that you
bring your own gun, or bring someone with you. Is there any way
I can get around this problem?
\_ I've been to many ranges that would rent you a gun.
\_ I think the OP is talking about the rule that some(?) ranges
enforce to reduce suicide liability. Bring your own, and
you're on your own. Bring a friend, and you're much less
likely to commit suicide. Come alone and rent, not good.
\_ pp has a reading comprehension problem.
\_ yes, perhaps. I made the inference that 'bring someone
with you' meant 'bring someone [with a gun] with you.'
Which was wrong, as another poster kindly clarified.
\_ Where do you live? I'm in the same boat. We should go together
and be BFF.
\_ *Every* range I've been to has guns for rent, typically you leave
your drivers license.
\_ This one has a severe form of reading comprehension problem. |
| 2008/5/29-6/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50084 Activity:nil |
5/29 http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9609.html \_ Nice to see the Swiftboat Brigade knocked back into the festering swamp they belong in. http://www.89infdivww2.org |
| 2008/5/28-30 [Reference/Military] UID:50067 Activity:moderate |
5/27 How is Heckler & Koch P2000 compared to say, Beretta PX4 Storm?
How about the ultra configurable Sig Sauer P250?
\_ The only time I really wished I had a gun was when we were
hiking in the middle of nowhere and there were a bunch of
gangster looking people who kept looking at us and pointing
as if they wanted to rape the girls and kill the guys or
something. They could have easily done so if they wanted to.
Other than that, there's never been a time where
I wished I had a gun.
\_ The P250 is a sub compact frame, the PX4 storm is compact. I've
found I just don't like the grips of the subcompacts, and am going
to stick with the PX4. -emarkp
\_ Also P250 is double action (DA) only. I hate DA-only mode.
Imagine needing accuracy for the second shot. Always get
DA->SA with de-cocker option.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg119-e.htm Good site
\_ Agreed, DA/SA is better at least for me. It's one reason I've
rejected a revolver for concealed carry. -emarkp
\_ Huh? Many modern revolvers are DA/SA. -- ilyas
\_ Also a revolver is hard to reload and the chamber is
so friggin bulky. We're not in the wild wild west anymore
\_ I'm a gun newbie and I'm wondering if DA/SA is better
for me? I'd like to be able to "cock" the first shot
with a single trigger pull, then pull lighter with
subsequent pulls. Is that what you call a "DA/SA"
gun? What are some autoloading guns that are DA/SA?
\_ Yes. DA = Double Action = hammer not cocked
SA = Single Action = hammer is cocked
On an automatic handgun, the slide kicks back and ejects
a round, then cocks the hammer and loads the new round.
Most automatics are DA/SA. Some are SA only which
require manually cocking the hammer before the first
round can be fired.
\_ HK P2000 has many modes, are they switcheable
between the modes? Like DA only, LEM, DA/SA...
\_ I honestly don't know.
\_ Are your guns switcheable?
\_ no, but my penis is
\_ ??
\_ I've always wanted to hide spare guns and clips in houseplants,
\_ I've always wanted to hide spare guns and magazines in houseplants,
like Chow Yun Fat.
\_ Magazines. Not clips. |
| 2008/5/27-6/1 [Reference/Military] UID:50063 Activity:nil |
5/27 Hey ilyas, tell us about your guns
\_ Cracks me up how clueless you people are about guns. -not ilyas
Read up on "shall-issue" states.
<DEAD>en.wikipedia.orssue"<DEAD> states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_issue#Shall-issue
http://www.kc3.com/CCW_progress.htm
http://www.gun-nuttery.com/maps/2006.gif
\_ California is a "may issue" state.
\_ Guns are scary! Anyone who owns a gun must be a nutcase! |
| 2008/5/26-30 [Reference/Military] UID:50057 Activity:high |
5/26 "Energy fears looming, new survivalists prepare" (AP) : Yahoo! Green:
http://www.csua.org/u/lnp
\_ Speaking of protection, I'm thinking of getting a 9mm handgun.
What is a good brand to buy? Is HK worth the extra $500 over
American brand 9mm guns? I really like German guns but wonder
why they cost a lot more.
\_ If you are getting it for protection it doesn't matter. If
you are getting it as a fetishtic totem to ward off the
boogey man and make up for your pathetic sex life, then by
all means get the best money can buy.
\_ Oh and here's a hint: you aren't getting it for protection.
\_ The only time I really wished I had a gun was when we were
hiking in the middle of nowhere and there were a bunch of
gangster looking people who kept looking at us and pointing
as if they wanted to rape the girls and kill the guys or
something. They could have easily done so if they wanted to.
Other than that, there's never been a time where
I wished I had a gun.
\_ What were gangsters doing hiking? Some sort of training
exercise?
\_ The hell I know, the were burning stinky plant things
and shouting and screaming
\_ I only dream about having a gun when people double park
their giant automobile in the middle of Gough.
\_ Is it for home defence or sport shooting? If it is for home
defence, consider a shotgun instead.
\_ There's a pistol which can chamber .410 shotgun shells.
What do you think of that as a home defense weapon?
\_ That's the Taurus Judge. It looks ideal, but on that
platform the recoil must be horrendous.
\_ I think having the shotgun look is also useful for
stopping intruders.
\_ Yes, and the sound of a pump action is instantly
recognizable. You can also load it with birdshot,
which won't go through 2 layers of drywall. The only
drawback is that the long barrel can be difficult to
manage in hallways. Hence the above-mentioned Judge.
\_ Oh boy! Sleep! That's when I'm a Viking!
\_ Oh boy! Sleep! That's where I'm a Viking!
\_ ???
\_ The insinuation appears to be that someone
here is delusional.
\_ Living a rich fantasy life, please.
\_ You have to try holding them to see if they fit your hand, etc.
My first handgun is a Beretta 92FS. I'm going to get the Beretta
PX4 Storm for regular carry (it's about half a pound lighter, and
the barrel is 1" shorter). I hate the feel of Glock, though a
lot of people swear by them. Springfield XD is a good choice as
well. S&W has put out their M&P line, but they're new enough
that they have some of the annoying CA features (mag disconnect).
\_ http://www.gun-review.com/reviews/ratingDisplay.php?reviewId=379&cat=1
\_ What do you mean by "regular carry"? I thought California's
ban on concealed weapon (handgun under your coat) makes
legalized handgun ownership less appealing than say,
other gun loving states.
\_ Not only that, but why would you want to wear a coat? It's
hot out.
\_ I have a concealed carry permit. I carry under an
untucked shirt. I can carry legally nearly anywhere in
CA.
\_ so are you like, waiting for the 0.0001% chance
that some nutso starts shooting people randomly
and you come into the picture and save everyone
and become the hero of the day?
\_ No, I think the nutjobs need to be outnumbered by
non-nutjobs with guns. -pp
\_ My wife wears a lot of jewelry and we have
to go to some bad neighborhoods to collect rent.
You do not know me. Do NOT anger me!
\_ Ah this makes a lot of sense. I'd probably
do the same in your shoes. I guess my life
is a bit overly sheltered. -pp
\_ I have not shot anyone (yet) but I have
had to draw on several delinquent renters
and a neighbor to whom I foolishly lent
money. By the way, I am ambidextrous,
so I can shoot with either or both hands.
Does andybody know if a concealed carry
Does andbody know if a concealed carry
Does anybody know if a concealed carry
permit allows me to carry two guns?
\_ Unit III is a lot more dangerous than I remember.
\_ Unit III is a lot more dangerous than I
remember.
\_ You obviously don't have a CCW. CA
allows up to 4 weapons on a permit.
\_ Your wife should not be wearing jewelry
in rough neighborhoods (duh). Are you
brandishing a firearm in an attempt to
collect a debt? If so, you are breaking
multiple laws, not just one.
\_ She has a right to wear jewelry
any where she wants. Why should
she abridge her jewelry wearing
right just because of violent
poor people? Are you even American?
Should I change out of my Rolex
before going to collect the rent?
\_ well since I am American, and
the dude with the wife and jewelry
and multiple pieces of property
motd poster doesn't exist,
I WIN.
\_ Are you Kip Macy?
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php
Law's pretty complicated in California. It varies from
county to county, so even if you can carry it in one
city, you cannot carry it in another city. This pretty
much renders gun ownership useless unless you're willing
to break CA laws from one county to another. Better to
get a taser. Safer, easier.
\_ Completely false. A CCW permit is issued on a county
basis, but allows you to carry *anywhere* in the state.
\_ I think BART or AC Transit gets mad if you carry,
no matter what your permit says.
- ccw holder
\_ The trick is getting a CCW permit in a city
that is anti-gun.
\_ http://www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/1109-top-11-counties-issue-2006-a.html
Looks like S Cal residents are more gun-ho about CCW
\_ Hey, how do you like it (92FS)? I've found that it has a
tendency to jam and I find its lack of rails annoying 'cause
I can't mount a laser sight.
\_ I love the 92. I've never had a jam, and I've put about
4-5k rounds through it. I always clean it after a shooting
session. It's a bit heavy for daily carry.
\_ What sort of ammo do you use? I always clean mine,
too. Did you have any problems with the first few
hundred rounds? To be fair, it was outdoors and
blowing sandy grit when I was getting the jams.
\_ I use all FMJ or JHP.
\_ I bought a Ruger today! -op
\_ I bought a Ruger and a Glock today! -op
\_ Now I would like to get another gun for my car.
Any recommendations? I am considering the Remington870P.
Any recommendations? I was considering a tactical
Any recommendations? I am considering a tactical
shotgun. |
| 2008/5/23-31 [Recreation/Food, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:50045 Activity:nil |
5/23 http://www.christiangunowner.com/handgun_shooting_stance.html URL says it all. \_ Ok? Who cares? What's your point? \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24818417 S Koreans hate US beef \_ Dude, there are protests in Korea all the time. There's always a protest going on somewhere over something. Farmers against lowering food tariffs is a pretty normal one. -jrleek \_ Is US beef shipped to S Korea cheaper than local Korean beef? \_ Yes. S. Korea has little aritable land and mostly small family farms. |
| 2008/5/6-9 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49891 Activity:nil |
5/6 So much for the $1M-per-piece "mine-resistant" vehicle.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080505/wl_mcclatchy/2930304
\_ Armor piercing shells from Iran can do that ya know.
\_ AP from Syria works fine, too, and those AP shells smuggled
out of Afghanistan are da BOMB.
\_ Out of Afghanistan? No. They're going _into_ Afghanistan
from Iran. How do you figure they're going from Afghanistan
into Iraq? *boggle* Here's the key parts of the article the
OP didn't read (from their own link):
The military has praised the vehicles for saving hundreds of
lives, saying they could withstand the IEDs, or improvised
explosive devices, which have been the biggest killers of
Americans in Iraq . The Pentagon has set aside $5.4 billion
to acquire 4,000 MRAPs at more than $1 million each, making
the MRAP the Defense Department's third largest acquisition
program, behind missile defense and the Joint Strike Fighter.
But last Wednesday's attack has shown that the MRAPs are
vulnerable to an especially potent form of IED known as an
EFP, for explosively formed penetrator, which fires a
superheated cone of metal through the vehicle's armor.
Military officials are still trying to determine whether last
week's attack is a sign of "new vulnerabilities (in the
vehicle) or new (weapons) capabilities" on the part of
insurgents, said Navy Capt. John Kirby , a spokesman for Adm.
Michael Mullen , chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
U.S. officials don't know if the EFP that pierced the MRAP
was larger, redesigned or a lucky shot from an old one. But
explosive experts in Iraq are investigating, said Col. Jerry
O'Hare , a military spokesman in Iraq .
So maybe the vehicle is flawed. Maybe the Iranians have
developed a new weapon. Maybe it was a lucky shot. OP is
pretty flip about it and fortunately not in a position to
make decisions in the military.
\_ Yeah I read the whole article before posting. I was just
disappointed that some $1M-per-piece hyped hardware
deployed only a year ago is already showing its
shortcomings at the theatre that it's designed to operate.
deployed merely a year ago is already showing its
shortcomings at the theatre that it's meant to operate.
-- OP
\_ Shaped metal projectiles penetrate tanks that cost much
more than $1M. Our tanks now have explosive armor that
detonates projectiles like this. The response is that
newer projectiles are two-stage shells--the first stage
takes the blast from the explosive armor, the second
stage penetrates. Welcome to the arms race.
\_ Tank = $1 million
IED = $1 thousand
\_ You're confused. The armor was never about
protecting the tank. It is there to protect the
guys inside. If they didn't put armor on anything
they could put more/bigger weapons/go faster on
the vehicles but the soldiers would die from
stray bullets. With armor it takes special
weapons to kill them which are not readily
available.
\_ HEAT technology was invented in WWII.
\_ Yeah, who could have possibly imagined that Iran might try to
intervene into a US led occupation of Iraq?
\_ Where's your 2001 post saying this?
\_ http://csua.com/2003/01/31/#27260 (Jan 2003) |
| 2008/4/28-5/4 [Reference/Military] UID:49849 Activity:nil |
4/28 Shot a .22 caliber gun before and it was very boring... no
recoil whatsoever. Going to the range again, what's a good
1-size up gun to try this time?
\_ .38?
\_ I thought 357 is one below 38?
\_ No. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special
38 special and 9mm are often compared against each
other, whereas 357 is a different monster.
\_ http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm
Looks like .25 ACP has 1/5 the recoil of 0.30 Carbine. I guess
caliber isn't a good indication of "easy to use"
\_ Rifle or pistol? "This is my weapon, this is my gun. This
is for shooting and this is for fun."
\_ A 12 gague shotgun is very entertaining if you like recoil.
Try with 3" shells too! |
| 2008/4/1-6 [Reference/Military] UID:49628 Activity:nil |
4/1 Hello Kitty as AR-15!
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/02/19/resnik.painted.guns.kpnx
http://www.kittyhell.com/2008/01/18/hello-kitty-assault-rifle-update
http://blog.riflegear.com/archive/2007/12/26/hello-kitty-ar-15---evil-black-rifle-meets-cute-and.aspx |
| 2008/3/28 [Reference/Military] UID:49587 Activity:moderate |
3/28 "Dude! I've totally just had this kick ass idea dude! <bong rip>
After college, let's you and me be DEFENSE CONTRACTORS! DUDE!
THAT WILL RULE DUDE!"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/world/asia/27ammo.html
\_ Only if you also have a 22-yr-old licensed male masseur as the VP,
unless you're willing to perform all the dick massages to the
Pentagon officials yourself in order to get your company into the
market. |
| 2008/3/16-17 [Reference/Military] UID:49470 Activity:moderate |
3/16 new Air Force slogan is 'above all'. old Germany slogan
was 'above all'.
\_ How about the "Air | Space | Cyberspace" stuff? Is the Air
Force responsible for cyber defence now? |
| 2008/3/12-13 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49438 Activity:nil |
3/12 hey emarkp, if pre-emptive strike works so well, how come the
israelis are still fighting? what's your stance on the iraq war now?
\_ Hey anonymous troll, what's your stance on signing your
posts? -ausman
\_ Wow, talk about out of left field. I have an email address. Feel
free to use it. -emarkp |
| 2008/3/12-17 [Reference/Military] UID:49435 Activity:high |
3/12 "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are
neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make
things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they
serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
-Thomas Jefferson
\_ Yawn. And misattributed.
\_ Right, Jefferson was quoting Cesare Beccaria
\_ "The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize
Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights
of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who
are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
-Samuel Adams
\_ Thomas Jefferson also owned hundreds of slaves, fathered several
children with one of them, and then owned his own children as
slaves. So? Times change, thankfully. -tom
\_ And maybe fathered several grandchildren with one of them?
\_ revisionist liberal!!!
\_ What ramifications does Wagner's anti-semitism have for his
music, or Gogol's anti-semitism for his books? Stupidest
red herring ever. -- ilyas
\_ The Declaration of Independence is a statement of moral
principles; I think the moral principles of the man who
wrote it are entirely relevant. If Thomas Aquinas was
\_ Thomas Aquinas loved animals, not little boys,
isn't that right?
found to have been buggering altar boys, it would have an
impact on the value of his work.
Also, the underlying assumption is that because Thomas
Jefferson believed in individual gun ownership, that it's
a good idea today. Thomas Jefferson also believed in
individual slave ownership; that doesn't make it a good
idea today. -tom
\_ Thomas did some bad things, therefore all he did or said
was bad. Is that your point? Can we apply that
universally to all political figures or just ones who
wrote things you don't like?
\_ Nice straw man. Please try reading my post next time.
\_ They weren't considered bad things at the time, that
is the whole point. Moral standards and society
change over time. The rules for gun ownership for
a frontier society are probably not going to make
sense in an urban society. This is why I support
local gun control laws only, btw.
\_ This is all tapdancing around the real issue, which
is that "we" don't want to give guns to hoods and
gangbangers, but do want to give them to hobbyists,
and normal law-abiding folks. However, the
distinction is apparently very hard to legislate.
Plus I guess even pointing this out can get one
accused of racism since hoods and gangbangers are
predominantly ethnic. -- ilyas
\_ No, it is more subtle than that. It is not always
clear what a "normal law-abiding folk" is. What
about a guy with a DUI? Busted for smoking pot
20 years ago? And we already have laws on the
books to keep guns out of the hands of felons,
they are just really hard to enforce, when
everyone else can get a gun so easily.
\_ That doesn't make it a bad idea today either.
\_ I agree; what Thomas Jefferson had to say about
gun owernship 200+ years ago has pretty much no
relevance to whether it's a good idea today. -tom
\_ Thomas Jefferson 200 years ago or tom today... hmmm,
this is a tough call... who to side with? People
are still people, guns are still guns, etc. I think
I'll go with Jefferson, thanks. Simply saying time
has passed is not a reason to dismiss what he had
to say.
\_ Well, he gave an argument. He didn't just say,
"Gun ownership is good and I'm Jefferson." The only
real difference is that gun technology has advanced.
\_ Plus the small matter of the invention of the
tank. Guns are significantly easier for
lawbreakers to use and significantly less
easy to use in defense against the government,
relative to Jefferson's time. Orders of magnitude
different in each direction. -tom
\_ The insurgents have shown that small arms
can be effective against an opposing force
with tanks, planes, &c.
\_ Only if you fight them with kid gloves on.
\_ The operations in Iraq may not be "nuke
& pave" but clearly kid gloves is not
an accurate characterization. It is
likely that any domestic operation by
the government would be similarly
restrained (there are still red voters
in blue states).
Even if the operations in Iraq are being
fought with "kid gloves," this was not
the case in Vietnam.
\_ You are a complete fucking idiot if you think
you can use tanks against insurgency. Tanks are
for breaking frontlines, holding territory
you can use tanks against insurgency. Tanks
are for breaking frontlines, holding territory
against conventional armies, and defense a la
artillery. You cannot use tanks to suppress
a civilian population. Germans certainly didn't
artillery. You cannot use tanks to suppress a
civilian population. Germans certainly didn't
in World War 2 (and they pioneered appropriate
tank use in war). You should probably stop
talking about things you don't have a clue
about. A good modern example of a successful
uprising with guns vs tanks is israel vs
palestinians, btw. -- ilyas
palestinians, btw. -- ilyas [formatd]
\_ "successful"?
\_ The palestinians keep gaining land and
somehow the sympathy of the world. The
Israelis are under constant siege and
living in a permanent state of fear. I'd
say the palestinians are winning with the
world's help.
\_ what does that have to do with guns?
\_ The point is asymmetric warfare
against a government works, and the
second point is that the
palestinians would be toothless if
they didn't have portable rockets,
and bombs, and yes guns. If you
don't like this example, read up
on the successful partisan movement
in USSR during the second war.
-- ilyas
\_ Asymmetric warfare doesn't
require individual gun
ownership.
\_ Asymmetric warfare is greatly
aided by individual gun
ownership, as the ff's
pointed out. If you have an
"ideological" stance against
it, as tom likes to say, you
will need a better reason
than TANKS! though. -- ilyas
\_ The Israelis are living in a constant state
of fear? How do you think the Gazans feel?
What has been the Gaza vs. Israel casualty
rate?
\_ I'm not sure if this is more funny or
sad that we have palestinian
sympathizers on the motd. I figured the
motd would attract a smarter crowd in
general who wouldn't fall for that sort
of propaganda. Anyway, I'll answer your
question an old quote,
"When Arab Mothers love their children
more than they hate the Jews there
will be peace".
Ponder and gain wisdom.
\_ That quote is racist.
\_ Are you new here? On the motd
you're supposed to only say,
"\_ RACIST!" as a form of
anti-PC mockery. It isn't a
serious statement. It is one of
the lower forms of intellectual
laziness. Care to try again or
are you happy thinking the only
democracy in the middle east, the
only country in the ME that has
women voting, holding office, etc,
the only country that has minority
population voting and holding
offfice, etc, etc, etc, is somehow
the enemy while the people who
wrap their kids in bomb jackets
and send them into pizza parlors
are somehow freedom fighters and
heroic? Again, it is sad that
people who are supposed to be so
smart have sucked up the propaganda
like such useful idiots always do.
\_ Your quote wasn't serious
either and not worth addressing
seriously. Of course it's
racist, it's a blanket
denigration of Arabs, and it
implies that Palestinians commit
commit acts of violence merely
because they hate Jews and that
is all there is to consider.
If you are able to frame your
argument in a meaningful way
then I could respond more
meaningfully. You're now
ascribing beliefs to me that I
didn't say. It's probably not
worth having serious discussions
with people who do that: set up
straw men and employ vague
emotional "reasoning".
\_ There is nothing emotional
about it. How about you
respond to what I said
about women, minorities and
the rest? Those are cold
\_ What about them?
have facts yet in your reply
you toss around empty
accusations of emotionalism
because the truth is too
strong to deny so you go
personal. Reply to what I
said. You've said nothing
more than scream "RACIST!"
so far. That isn't the
most intellectually rigorous
response from someone who
claims to want intellectual
rigor. I can get better on
Kos.
\_ In this particular quote, Jefferson did not
mention the anti-government aspect but only the
anti-criminal. I'd guess the main criminal aid
today is concealability. This factor would
argue towards a ban on handguns, not guns
altogether. (I'm not advocating that though.)
\_ It is unclear that Jefferson actually fathered Sally Hemmings'
children:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings#DNA_testing
\_ As an aside, I find the 'America was a frontier society in the old
days but not today' argument amusing in a wishful thinking kind of
way. There is huge political resistance in America to outright
handgun bans. Clearly our society is 'frontier enough,' even today.
-- ilyas |
| 2008/3/3-6 [Reference/Military] UID:49323 Activity:nil |
3/3 The Ray Gun
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/145/the_ray_gun
Takes ~5sec to stop only one rioter. How efficient for such an
costly piece of machinery. And why can't a rioter wear aluminum
foil underneath the clothes?
\_ When the Red Sox won the world series a few years ago,
a woman was killed by being hit in the eye with a rubber
bullet as police tried to control the "celebration" in
Boston. The ray gun won't kill people.
\_ It also is a big bulky expensive humvee that is designed
apparently for precision aiming from long distances. Not
likely to be helpful in most situations.
\_ Yes, the present prototypes are big, bulky, and
expensive.
\_ And, like tasers, they will gradually be seen as reasonable
force and police will use them on people for giving them the
respect they think they are due.
\_ What if the rioters wrap themselves in cheap o' aluminum
foil?
\_ I'm not talking about rioters. I'm talking about shit
like "Don't tase me bro" dude.
\_ If the ray gun is pointed at the eye by chance like the rubber
bullet gun was, will the person go half-blind and sue?
\_ Only if you somehow manage to face into it and not blink
for an extended period of time.
\_ Water cannon on firetrucks won't kill people either, and you
don't need all that money to develop and manufacture it just for
this purpose.
\_ They have been known to cause permanent harm to people.
Being hit with a water cannon can be fatal, too, if you
get hit wrong. |
| 2008/2/22-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:49220 Activity:nil |
2/22 Bush Pentagon Office Of Public Affairs inserting itself into election
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/179784.php
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/179742.php
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301273
http://www.intel-dump.com/posts/1203696668.shtml
\_ I'm shocked, shocked
\_ libural URL alert! Don't believe it unless it's on FoxNews. |
| 2008/1/20-23 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Reference/Military] UID:48976 Activity:nil |
1/18 War on Terror: The Board Game
http://www.cocktail.uk.com/shop/products/product.asp?ID=4288 |
| 2008/1/7-11 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48898 Activity:nil |
1/7 Whoops. War with Iran is getting closer.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8U17HM80&show_article=1
\_ Someone set us up the bomb!
\_ Yawn. We shot down a friggin civilian airliner and didn't end up
in a war. Our guys and their guys are shooting each other on both
sides of the land border. We didn't get in a war. |
| 2007/12/31-2008/1/7 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Sports] UID:48876 Activity:nil 70%like:48875 |
12/31 Soda comes up. Cal football going down vs. Air Force. Yay!
Okay, the way the AF QB's knee bent was really fucked up.
\_ We dominated. Put Riley in there next year and we might
have a shot at something. It was seriously refreshing to see
a quarterback who wasn't immobile with a terrible arm. |
| 2007/12/31 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Sports] UID:48875 Activity:nil 70%like:48876 |
12/31 Soda comes up. Cal football going down vs. Air Force. Yay! |
| 2007/12/21-29 [Reference/Military] UID:48852 Activity:nil |
12/21 Is there a shooting range in N Cal where I could try out different
machine guns like M16x, AK47 variants, and most importantly the
super duper G36? |
| 2007/11/21-27 [Recreation/Travel/LasVegas, Reference/Military] UID:48673 Activity:low |
11/21 General Custard at the Last Stand were defeated by Indians
who had ~200 rifles. How the hell did the injuns get their hands
on the rifles?
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn
"...some of the Indians were armed with repeating Spencer,
Winchester rifles and Henry rifles, while the 7th Cavalry
carried single-shot Springfield Model 1873 carbines, caliber
.45-70.[21] These rifles had a slower rate of fire than the
aforementioned repeating rifles and tended to jam when
overheated... rendering them useless in combat
except as a club."
Well, there ya go. Cheap rifles, probably made in CHINA, could
have contributed to Custer's demise.
\_ time traveling America hating liberals
\_ nice.
\_ I thought it was pretty good too. Thanks.
\_ Is this a troll? They bought and traded for them, duh.
\_ how many trinkets do they need to trade for a rifle?
\_ Now THAT's a troll.
\_ No it is NOT a troll. I'm watching the History Channel now.
I'm not getting laid. -no laid guy #3
\_ Don't you have a day job? Or maybe you have the day
off.
\_ I took the day off. I'm too depressed from not getting
laid. Please have some pity for me. BTW I find it
\_ Why are you not getting laid again? I've forgot.
And what're you doing about it?
hilarious that they dug up all the remains of the
soldiers and had forensic artists mold the facial
bones so that we'd remember them, as well as putting
up nice tombstones at the hill... and they made
NO efforts to do the same for the Indians.
\_ Why are you not getting laid again? I've forgot.
And what're you doing about it?
\_ I watch the History of Sex on the History Channel
\_ In 1878 the army awarded 24 Medals of Honor for
the Last Stand. Good job.
\_ Which "they" did the digging and facial molds?
\_ The state of Montana employees. Go figure.
\_ Maybe they didn't want to be disrespectful of the indian
remains?
\_ The battle of Little Bighorn was in 1876! Of course they
had rifles!
\_ The op indicates that the Indians somehow got their
hands on rifles
\_ why does it even matter? Many of the rifles of the time were less
effective weapons than the indians skilled use of bows&arrows.
\_ Nah, really?
\_ I hear those Injuns have indoor plumbing these days.
\_ Ever been on a reservation?
\_ Yes, I swam in the pool at the hotel/casino and
my room had a jacuzzi tub with an LCD TV
mounted above it.
\_ Then the answer is no. You haven't. You
think the average NA lives like that? How
about the ones who don't have casinos, which
is most of them? Next you'll be telling us
how you met Bill Cosby so you think blacks
in this country are all multi millionaires.
\_ No, the answer is yes. I have. Simple
question: "Have you been?". Simple
answer: "Yes!" You cannot say "Oh,
but you chose the wrong one! Pick again!"
\_ Idiot. The casino is not the
reservation. The answer is "no". You
have never been in a res house or met
someone who does. The casino part is
no different than going to Vegas.
That you would try to say you've been
to a res when you've only been to the
casino which is all dolled up for
dumb white folks makes it really clear
you have no clue.
\_ Um, yes. The casino is on the
reservation and you don't know
anything about me. I have a
friend who taught for many
years on a reservation in
Arizona and still lives on the
reservation. Oh, but they
don't have indoor plumbing. I
forgot. You're the dumb one
for thinking all tribes live
in squalor and don't have
indoor plumbing. Nice stereotype.
\_ I see a few days off hasn't
improved the motd average IQ.
What will it take for you to
figure out the average NA, even
those with successful casinos,
is not living the same life as
the white folks staying at the
casino hotel? I love when
racists use the "I have a xyz
friend" line.
\_ Ha ha. You're an idiot.
Equivelent conversation:
Q. Have you ever been to Nevada?
A. Yeah, I stayed at a hotel on the
strip once.
Q. Idiot! The answer is no then,
isn't it? You think all of
Nevada is like Las Vegas?
\_ Look, the peanut gallery
has put in 2 cents. Stupid,
ignorant, and wrong, but at
least you made it! |
| 2007/11/12-14 [Reference/Military] UID:48620 Activity:kinda low |
11/12 How many deaths were attributed by Wernher von Braun? Hero for our
Saturn V, or villain for his creation that killed civilians?
\_ "Vonce ze rockets go up, who cares vhere zey come down? That's not
\_ "Vonce ze rockets go up, who cares vhere zey come down? Zat's not
my department," says Wernher von Braun.
\_ How accountable should we hold the maker of a weapon for how
it's used? |
| 2007/11/9-14 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:48598 Activity:nil |
11/9 AP IMPACT: New Army chopper overheats
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071109/ap_on_re_us/overheating_helicopters
"The cost of an air conditioning unit per aircraft is about $98,000,"
Gee, since these choppers are for disaster relief instead of combat,
why don't they just paint it white or leave it unpainted as silver to
reflect the heat away?
\_ because you won't get that jack booted thug look |
| 2007/11/9-15 [Reference/Military, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/TJB] UID:48597 Activity:nil |
11/9 sameer should join the army. aaron should join the army.
tjb should join the army.
\_ sameer already joined THE MARINES. aaron is off visiting places
that poorer people can't afford to. dunno what happened to tjb.
\_ I challenge you the concept of "expensive." Silicon Valley
is already pretty expensive.
\_ SV doesn't cost $2000/night.
\_ Is Aaron doing an Asian Sex Tour, or something?
\_ Aaron Smith does not want to fight. Aaron Smith wants Asian pussy.
\_ Does anyone know where to find the tjb archives online? I was
looking for them recently, to no avail. -niloc
\_ Maybe someone felt bad about archiving the ranting of a guy
who was actually insane. |
| 2007/11/9-12 [Reference/Military] UID:48596 Activity:kinda low |
11/9 HUMAN WEAPONS tonight. Russian army. -not getting laid #3 guy
\_ russians were weaky weecs
\_ The History of Sex on the History Channel is really really
pissing me off -not getting laid
\- you may wish to take a class from TLACQUER
\_ I didn't watch this episode, but I heard a few years ago that part
of their training is to have someone continuously kick your stomach
to train your muscles there.
to train your muscles there. Such training was uncovered because
someone died from it.
\_ Why did they think kicking your stomach going to help? Wouldn't
that just damage the muscle tissues and put other organs at
risk? |
| 2007/11/1-3 [Reference/Military] UID:48518 Activity:high |
11/1 Human Weapons, Kung Fu, this Friday night. Don't miss it!!!
\_ If the show is treating Kung Fu as a single discipline like Karate
or Thai boxing, it's not worth watching.
or Jujitsu, it's not worth watching.
\_ What do you mean by discipline here? It's not like there's only
only style of Karate of Jujitsu either.
only style of Karate or Jujitsu either. Although, of course,
Kung Fu is much more diverse than either of those.
\_ Human Weapon has lost me ever since I was watching a few minutes
and the wrestler in the pancreation ep. was saying he had to be
careful or he might smash his opponent's nose, sending bone fragments
into his brain, killing him. that just doesn't happen.
careful or he might smash his opponent's nose, sending bone
fragments into his brain, killing him. that just doesn't happen.
\_ A wrestler said something stupid? Say it ain't so! |
| 2007/10/29-11/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48471 Activity:nil |
10/29 http://nadshot.com |
| 2007/10/29-11/1 [Reference/Military] UID:48470 Activity:nil |
10/29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_%281899_and_1907%29 Look at all the sections and declarations. I guess atomic bomb is totally legal because they're not covered in the chemical and biological warfare sections. As for launching explosives from the air, I guess that is perfectly legal too since they're not launched from balloons. \_ If you're really interested in the Hague and the circumstances surrounding it, I recommend "The Proud Tower" by Barbara Tuchman which has a large chapter on both conferences. Basically, none of the participants were truly interested in the outcome, and the conference was originally called as a ploy by the Russian foreign minister. |
| 2007/10/18-20 [Reference/Military] UID:48372 Activity:kinda low |
10/18 Air Force to blame Cheney's attempt to execute Wing Attack Plan R
on underlings
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071018/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/nuclear_mistake
\_ german shepherd don't fly. |
| 2007/10/10-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48283 Activity:nil |
10/10 Pelosi vs. the anti-war activists
http://csua.org/u/jp0 |
| 2007/9/24-27 [Reference/Military] UID:48176 Activity:kinda low |
9/24 Does there exist a thing as missile-to-missile intercepter?
\_ What, do you mean like the Patriot? Or do you mean a missile
carried on a missile to take out a Patriot?
\_ Sorry I didn't make it clear. I mean an air-to-air anti-
missile missle. You know, like what they do in Robotech
where they shoot out 32 missiles at a time and they counter
with 32 other missiles in space.
\_ Uh, that does not exist. ICBM's deploy flak, multiple reentry
vehicles, and decoys, but not active countermeasures. Not very effective
to try and hit a bullet with a bullet launched from a bullet,
when they're already trying to hit a bullet with a bullet.
\_ No, it's much more effective to confuse and outmaneuvre when you can.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_defense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Missile_countermeasures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_defense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS |
| 2007/9/18-22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48105 Activity:nil |
9/18 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html Iraq: 3783 deaths, 27,848 wounded. Question: How much does it cost for each death (payment for burial, family, ceremoney, etc) vs. treat for the wounded (doctor's bills, shrinks, compensation packages, etc)? \_ Are you trying to make the case that we should let the wounded die because it is cheaper? |
| 2007/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:48059 Activity:nil |
9/12 CLEANSE.
\_ Sure, you can counteract the effects if you actually have
the time and discipline to do so, but how many have that?
Are you familiar with the studies correlating miles
driven with heart disease and obesity?
http://www.rand.org/news/press.04/09.27.html
\_ Where do you live? In some counties you can get a CCW without too
much trouble.
\_ What is CCW?
\_ Carry Concealed Weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry |
| 2007/9/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley, Reference/Military] UID:48045 Activity:moderate |
9/13 I don't know if any students still read this, but I know some
staff does. Be careful out there:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/localnews/ci_6880995
(Crime wave targeting Cal students) -ausman
\_ Thanks ausmas, this is one of the reasons that I want to get
a taser. -taser below
\_ The reasons so many muggings involve people getting beat up
first is if a group of people run up to you and hit you hard
99% of the people's reaction is to be stunned for a bit.
Stunned and on the ground most likely. Which gives someone
plenty of time to grab your stuff and run off. Muggings aren't
fights, if done right you don't have any warning.
\_ Yeah and if there are >1 muggers, your taser isn't really
going to help you. Just avoid black people.
\_ yes. train in handling a gun and it'll be second nature to not
be stunned and gun down 2 or more muggers
\_ And the you'll wake up.
\_ Wow, that celaya is a bit of a dolt. Can we get a brighter Asst.
chief please? "one off the street, and another one fills his shoes."
It's not like there are limited spots. |
| 2007/9/11-12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48015 Activity:kinda low |
9/11 The War On Terror is like herpes. Not going away ever.
Deal.
\_ Ridiculous. The WoT is a fiction, like the War on Drugs. Once
people wake up to the idea that you can be alert and not paranoid,
this "War" will implode.
\_ Nah, too many GOP donors are sucking on the public teat to
ever let a moneymaker like WoT ever go away entirely. Just
like the idiotic "war on drugs" the people raking in public
dough will drag it out indefinitely.
\_ Heh, a troll op followed by a trollicious reply which hooked
another troll. You earned the Triple Troll Whammy Award!
\_ And you of course, are not a troll, so no T4 award...
\_ No, I'm commenting on the trolliciousness of the whole thing
which makes you and me meta-trolls. If I were commenting on
a baseball game that does not make me a baseball player. |
| 2007/8/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:47764 Activity:low |
8/26 HUMAN WEAPON is totally awesome
\_ I like the slow-mo CGI models so you can really see what's going
on. Nice touch.
\_ I am totally going to go past the guard and rotate his
shoulder throw down and punch him in the throat the next
barfight i get into.
\_ Worked for me, hope it works out for you, too. I also watch
Dogfights and Ice Road Truckers which means I can now fly a
fighter from any era and drive an over loaded 18 wheeler over
32" of ice at 40 below. Ok, no, wait, I can't. It is just
TV and fun to watch, just like HW.
\_ Seconded. The eskrima episode broke my brane. |
| 2007/8/11-15 [Reference/Military] UID:47586 Activity:nil |
8/11 Maybe the gun nuts are right?
http://urltea.com/175y (journalinquirer.com)
\_ [pointless off topic rude stupid troll purged]
\_ I actually agree with the gun nuts, but that article is poor.
\_ You just wasted 30 seconds of my time. "What if... what if..."
This article is almost as informative and entertaining as
Ayn Rand's crap.
\_ The article is poorly written but it is not "What if...". It
attempts (poorly) to argue that since criminals already have
guns maybe non-criminal citizens should carry them (and use
them), too, since the government is doing a crap job of
protecting citizens from violent repeat offenders. |
| 2007/7/27 [Reference/Military] UID:47444 Activity:moderate |
7/27 Sikhs are actually pretty bad ass radicals
http://www.exile.ru/2007-July-27/war_nerd.html
\_ Of course. Don't you see them wearing turbans? |
| 2007/7/12-16 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:47272 Activity:moderate |
7/12 Southern Hopitality-toddler booted from plane for saying "bye bye plane" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070712/ap_on_re_us/toddler_booted \_ some people just can't control their their fucking kids anymore. \_ yes but in this case the kid had repeated the phrase only a few times and the flight attendant was a rude unprofessional bitch. \_ Okay, I re-read the article. When did flight attendants become total bitches? Since when does a stewardess have the authority to order a plane back to kick off a couple of passengers? Isn't it pretty expensive to turn a plane around land, taxi, and take off again? Why did the pilot agree to do this? The story sounds fishy. \_ They were still taxiing, that said, it's still odd enough to be fishy. \_ She falsely claimed that the woman had threatened her and the pilot turned around based on that. \_ You don't think there's any chance the woman became super upset mom and threatened that flight attendant? \_ No. There were witnesses. \_ Okay, I finally watched the WSBTV video. The story is a lot less fishy now. All I can say is, somebody's ass is grass. |
| 2007/6/30-7/4 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Media] UID:47139 Activity:low |
6/29 MMC - Live Free, Die Hard, is it really as good as the original?
http://daveslongbox.blogspot.com
"That was some loco shit
gruesome deaths, helicopters strafing, outrunning fireballs,
hanging over great heights, jumping on moving objects, jumping
off moving objects, shooting things to make them explode, head
butting, speaking ill of the dead, helicopters flying in formation,
PG-13 profanity, machine guns, a command center where people
explain the plot, a Joint Strike Fighter piloted by the most
bloodthirsty maniac in the Air Force, collapsing freeways,
parkour, annoying meta references to the first three films,
lots of broken glass, elevator shaft fu, and car crashes.
Oh, the crashes. There are enough car crashes in Live Free or
Die Hard to fill ten normal movies.
Understand: I am not saying it is a good movie, but darn it,
I kinda liked it."
\_ I saw it. It was ok, nothing special. I won't remember it in
6 months. The earlier ones were better, especially the one at
the 'Nakatomi Tower'. Running over glass in bare feet? Hard to
top that.
\_ I saw it and hated it. The antagonist is a computer hacker who
manages to hack into everything from tunnel lighting systems to
closed circuit dormitory elevator surveilance cameras. Maggie Q
is hot, though. But the annoying I'm-a-Mac guy cancels her out.
is hot, but the annoying I'm-a-Mac guy cancels her out.
\_ It's called "suspension of disbelief". Are you a star trek fan?
You're ok with warp speed but not a computer hacker? The movie
still sucked but not because it was a computer terrorist. |
| 2007/6/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:47083 Activity:low |
6/27 German artillery!!! German artillery is the best!
\_ Actually South Africa has the best artillery, if you restrict
it to cannon-type artillery and don't extend the definition
to include rockets.
\_ South African has the world's largest arsenal of HIV.
\_ South Africa has the world's largest arsenal of HIV.
\_ RACIST!
\_ "HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate: 21.5% (2003 est.)"
link:www.csua.org/u/j1a (<DEAD>www.cia.gov<DEAD>
Maybe not the largest, but certainly the largest per
capita. |
| 2007/6/25-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:47059 Activity:high |
6/25 Why do we keep hearing about how we're fighting "Al Qaeda" in Iraq?
My understanding is that there are at least three competing groups of
Sunni guerillas: "Al Qaeda in Iraq," Salafi Jihadists, and ex-Baathists.
At any given time, it seems that these three different groups are
referred to as "Al Qaeda."
\_ You want to read my man Juan Cole: http://juancole.com
\_ We are fighting Al-Queda probably 2 percent of the time. The\
rest of them are virulent american hating <IRAQI FACTION
\_ We are fighting Al-Queda probably 2 percent of the time. The
rest of them are virulent american hating <IRAQI FACTION
THAT HAS HATED THE OTHER GUY FOR LAST FIFTY YEARS>.
\_ This is what the Sunnis and Shiites should do
http://img.7chan.org/jb/src/118195646798.jpg
\_ What, get breast implants?
\_ Hot!
\_ Two reasons: 1) The American public is lazy and bored with the war
and wants it made simple for them. 2) The Bush Administration has
deliberately spread falsehoods about the operation from the start.
Why would they stop now?
\_ We're fighting them there so that we don't have to fight them
here! God bless.
\_ This reminds of the Vietnam-era helicopter gunner who was asked
how he could shoot women and children. He replied, "It's easy,
you just don't lead them as much."
\_ That was a line from a fucking movie dude.
\_ Based on an actual line as quoted by a correspondent.
See "Dispatches" by Michael Herr.
\- I thought In Pharaoh's Army was a better VN book.
\- I thought IN PHARAOH'S ARMY was a better VN book.
\_ A different experience written for different
reasons. I thought that IPA's description of life on
a boat was scarier than the description of VN.
\_ Sidenote: Does a gunner actually need to lead when shooting a
human being? Bullets from mounted guns travel much much
faster than human can run. It's not like when a figher plane
shoots at another figher plane.
\_ I guess it would depend on how close the gunner was to
the target. |
| 2007/6/7-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46874 Activity:nil |
6/6 Wait, how is Bush so dumb that he's managing to help bring the
BLOODY COLD WAR BACK! Like we need this now...
\- this has been going on for a long time. YMWTFG "bush, stephen
cohen, russia, cold war). also bush is probably stupid enough he
actually may thing ABM might work ... it's just a matter of
ironing out some engineering problems, as opposed to cynically
supporting it for pork-type reasons.
\_ Cold War was a good war.
\_ Russia is in no position to "bring the BLOODY COLD WAR BACK!". You
know YELLING IN ALL CAPS! doesn't make your point stronger, right?
Russia's economy is slightly smaller than Mexico's at last count.
Their military is a wreck, most of their brighter scientists moved
to Western countries. Putin is making the mandatory noises to keep
his generals and ultra-right nationalists happy, nothing more.
\_ Ohh, believe me, Russia can REALLY screw up the world if it
choose to... buy simpley selling their weapon to people in Iraq,
for example.
\_ My question of the day is... where do we get all these money
from? Aren't we suppose to allocate resources to fight a war? |
| 2007/6/4 [Reference/Military, Recreation/Dating] UID:46849 Activity:insanely high |
6/4 NWSW Chick with a big gun
link:tinyurl.com/yosafk
\_ Who wants to see a chick with lopsided guns? |
| 2007/5/15-17 [Reference/Military, Reference/History/WW2] UID:46651 Activity:nil |
5/15 300 means more tourist business in Sparta:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/15/europe/letter.php
\- i thought that article was hilarious. i especially liked the
"i suspect a band of gypsies". |
| 2007/5/15-17 [Reference/Military] UID:46648 Activity:moderate |
5/15 What's the difference between US Marines and US Army?
\_ http://csua.com/?entry=30559
\_ http://csua.com/?entry=34877
\_ US Marines: We are elite peacekeepers.
US Army: Suckers!!!
\_ Marines are a division of the Navy. You send in your
small Marines strike force to pacify the locals and make
a beachhead for your larger occupying force, US Army,
to take over eventually. Of course since all we do now
is fight guerilla wars (poorly) now all of this goes out
the window.
\_ So why isn't the US Army involved in Iraq? Everytime I
turn on the TV I see Marines getting injured.
\- it's very hard for me not to say something more
cutting but ...
us army has more deaths in iraq than all other
service branches put together. possibly about 2x
all other services combined. although marines
have been killed in higher proportion.
it's kinda of disturbing how many people like you
blithly believe things so far off the mark and
ostensibly can vote, opine about matters of
public policy etc. why dont you watch the NEWS HOUR
WITH LEHERER. at the end of every show they have an
"honor roll" they show a name/rank/picture/hometown/
service of people killed in iraq. this kind of ignorance
is why these kind of "gestures", or showing photographs
of the coffins coming back arent just PR stunts.
\- see also: http://icasualties.org/oif
[i dont remember if we talked about this before
but there is some interesting stuff when you look
at say the geographic distribution of deaths,
the racial composition of death in vietnam etc.
sometimes reenforces what you think, other times
not what you expect.]
\_ Now you have a little more insight into why we are totally
screwed in Iraq. Marines are trained to attack quickly,
secure the area, then get the hell out. We're using
Marine units long term in areas where no one knows the
difference between friend and foe, if there is a difference.
We should have highly trained units familiar with the
last 50 years of pain in the area, plus Arabic. We also
need magical fucking fairy dust. We're asking our young
Marines to... I dunno. Pacify the area? Shoot everyone?
Keep it safe? Every time they kick ass, the left
screams bloody murder, and the right screams look they
are fighting terrorists, when they're completely full of shit.
Marines need a set goal, like 'take that building' or
'shoot that bad guy', they are not miracle workers who can
bring democracy to Iraq. I read the paper and I see
men and women from the Air Force, Army, Marines, Navy
and national guard in the death rolls. Must suck to be
in the Navy and you're sent to land to guard cargo
and you get shot.
\_ The big lie of our all-volunteer force is that there
is any circumstance under which being in the military
doesn't "suck." Americans don't like the concept of
national service, so we've sold our military as a
"career choice" like any other. But it's not. You
may die, you more than likely may be maimed beyond
comprehension, you may be psychologically scarred for
life, and you will likely be ordered to do things that
are against your moral code or your better judgement.
That's war. The glamor that surrounds the military is a
big load of crap, and I speak as someone who is a general
supporter of the military (although not what our current
administration has chosen to do with it in Iraq). It
really is a shame what is happening to our boys (and girls)
out there, but remember that they chose to put themselves
there.
\_ See
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200706/mockenhaupt-army
While the article focuses on turning the Y-generation
into soldiers, the point I take away is that some have
the physical and mental stamina to be warriors, and some
don't. We want those who are willing and able, to fight
for us. There still is and will always be great honor in
defending America, and those who feel the truth of that
will step up to the plate. When the stain on our
national honor known as the Bush Administration is gone,
the faith in our civilian leadership to use the military
effectively and with integrity will be restored, and the
those who have been staying away because of the
stupidity of this admin will volunteer. Standards will
rise again and we will have the best military in the
world once again, with an all volunteer force that is
willing and able to fight for our freedom
\_ Ah, but what about when the next gang of idiots
takes over? c.f. the current crop of candidates.
\_ We seem to bungle a war every 20-30 years, so look
for the next SNAFU around 2030.
\_ I agree military service sucks. I stil don't think our
Marines or Army are able to fight a guerilla war. What do
you think? Your 'sucking' point does not deal with anything
I wrote above. I know it's going to suck. They know it's
going to suck. I want my military in situations where there
is a definite goal or as they say "VICTORY OVER TERRORISTS
IN IRAQ". I don't see it.
\_ Marines aren't a division of Navy. They are two separate
branches of the military. And there are plenty of army units
in Iraq.
\_ The United States Marine Corps is part of the Department
of the Navy. Don't take my word for it:
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/organization/org-over.asp
--alawrenc
\_ Hence "Marine" (also see: "dict usmc")
\_ I thought after Vietnam War, C.Powell and others transformed US
military to a "FIGHTING" force (instead of an "occupying" force).
The reality is that US commander-in-chief think we can fight
cheaply (~50 billion USD) and quickly. The bigger question is,
1. should we try our Commander-in-chief for treason? 2. after
6 years of blank check, should we just cut our losses and get the
hell out and spend next 30 years trying to repaire our reputation
abroad? or 3. should we continue this shit, without input from
Iraq's neighbors, and continue pour resources in it?
\_ From what I remember a friend whose dad and brother were in the
Navy told me, the original job of the Marines was to secure beaches.
To do so, they would usually get transported by the Navy (a joke was
that MARINE stands for My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment). Once a beach
head was secured, the Army would then take over. It doesn't seem
like this is the case anymore.
\_ I still think we should let the Iraqis put to vote on whether
the foreign troups should stay or go. If they genuinely want us
to leave, they can vote us out, and we go and declare a victory for
democracy. |
| 2007/5/15-17 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46638 Activity:nil |
5/15 Iraqi army shows you how to hold an assault rifle
http://tinyurl.com/2arlu2 (news.yahoo.com)
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070512/481/bag11705121526
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070512/481/bag11305121525
\_ Almost as good as Zarqawi using the machine gun.
\_ Our marines hold assault rifles that way as well in some
situations. Like close quarter combat, I believe.
\_ Since when are assault rifles belt fed? 2/3 of those
pictures show 'machine guns' |
| 2007/4/25-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Reference/Military] UID:46452 Activity:kinda low |
4/25 What the Marines really think about kids in Afghanistan
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c4_1176720508
\_ I don't think this is a big deal. Grunts in the Marines
will not be Ivy League educated investment bankers.
As long as they don't give into institutionalizing torture
on advice from the CIA, I'm ok with them.
\_ That first guy is a spitting image of Pvt Pyle from Full Metal
Jacket
\_ I guess some of the friendly-fire accidents are meant for good.
\_ I was expecting worse -- things involving child sex abuse. Maybe it
was edited out.
\_ These guys are US Marines, they don't work for the UN. It's
the UN troops who are engaged in the sex trade and child abuse.
You're looking at a bunch of jar heads doing what soldiers have
done since the dawn of time: bitching about marching, bitching
about the weather, bitching about the people, just plain
bitching because they have nothing else to do. The only thing
in the entire video that looked like a problem at all was the
two guys playing air guitar with what looked like live weapons.
Seriously, what did you all expect? They'd be planting flowers,
waving flags, and giving speeches on how nice it is to inter-
mingle with foreign cultures to expand their horizons? Get real.
Guys like them are around so guys like you can sit at home and
bitch about them in safety. And in case you missed the point,
I'll repeat it: if you're looking for real scumbags you'll find
them working for the UN. It's documented and large scale. The
few cases where American soldiers have gone bad are very few and
they got jailed for it. At the UN they condone it.
\_ Standard dittohead response: when threatenend, bluster loudly
with authority on one of your talking points.
\_ Personal attack? Maybe next time you'll bring something
to the table. Thanks for playing.
\_ that's attacking the response, not the person.
\_ I don't think the person who wrote "Standard
dittohead response" even saw the video so he was
unable to do anything but attack the messenger.
If he'd seen the video he might have had a counter
which actually referenced something in the video
showing how evil the US Marines are. But he didn't.
You want real thugs and criminals? Check out the UN.
\_ Once again you change the subject. This is
a video made BY THE MARINES, not by Amnesty
International or anyone who would be looking
for malfeasance.
\_ This is an awfully long way of saying WDYHA.
\_ Pretty much this is what you always see when you're in a poor
country. |
| 2007/4/24-25 [Reference/Military] UID:46426 Activity:moderate |
4/23 For you guys who think we need guns to check government power, where
do you draw the line? Is there a line for you, or should all small arms
be legal for private ownership?
\_ Define "small arms"
\_ Yeah, I think recoiless rifles should be legit.
\_ 50 caliber or smaller
\_ Well, it seems to me that stuff like an MP5 with integral
suppressor would be quite useful for the covert ops needed
when trying to fight against superior federal forces. Same
with full-auto guns and stuff with "assault" features.
\_ Phased-plasma rifle in the forty watt range
\_ So is a 39 watt plasma rifle ok? you bastard!
\_ only way to check on government power is to allow average citizens
to own nuclear bombs. And no, I still don't see the relationship
between 2nd Amenment and *HAND GUNS*. Why can't we ban all
hand guns, but keep rifles and shutguns? Why hand gun advocates
never complain about our ban on grunade, rocket launchers, and
artillery is beyond me. |
| 2007/4/23-25 [Reference/Military] UID:46419 Activity:low |
4/23 http://www.csua.org/u/ijj (nytimes.com) An Accounting of Daily Gun Deaths. \_ I'm sure this would have been avoided if banned all guns. It worked in the Soviet Union, it works in China, North Korea, Cuba, and Vietnam \_ interesting that more than half (45 out of 81) are suicides \_ There are a heck of a lot of suicides by jumping in South Korea. All those 25 story apartment buildings... \_ It worked in Japan. \_ Yes, along with stripping and restructing their entire country and culture from the ground up after nuking them into submission. Is that what you suggest? \_ Actually, gun control was in place long before WW2. \_ why you are not complaining about ban on automatic rifles? anti-aircraft gun that can be use to take out escaping vehicles? how about cheap cruise missle made by the Chinese? Why there is a ban on these weapons? I mean, if we want a free society, we should have the right to buy anything we can afford, right? |
| 2007/4/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:46410 Activity:moderate |
4/22 Blue Angle crashed, setting homes and vehicles on fire.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_on_re_us/blue_angel_crash
Glad that it didn't crash in SF. What's the point of maintaining an
expensive team and performing these stunts in populated areas
endangering people on the ground?
\_ http://csua.com/?entry=45491
Recruitment, pride, morale, feeling of security, and tradition.
Similar to why the Red army of 1 million marching down
Red Square.
\_ Jingoism.
\_ As opposed to the full military? I'm glad you think so.
With citizens like these, who needs enemies?
\_ The mission of the Blue Angels is to serve as a recruiting tool.
Every time they put on a show, there are some people in the crowd
who think "wow, I want to be a fighter pilot". That's the point.
\_ And here I thought that the mission of the Blue Angels was a
yearly "show of force" to any punk that might be getting ideas.
\_ Is it cost-effective? How many actually join the air-force
successfully because of Blue Angel? Thanks.
\_ I don't know and am not going to hazard a guess. This is
their mission, which they're quite open about (it's right
there on their web site). I was merely answering the question,
not the implied criticism. By the way, the Blue Angels are
part of the Navy, not the Air Force.
\_ You all forgot the part where you say, "RIP" for the dead Blue
Angel and a moment of thought for the 8 people injured on the
ground before you dove in to attacking the wasteful recruiting
policies of the BUSHCO military/industrial complex/HALLIBURTON!
\_ Blue Angels started under a Democrat admin, and continued
with the full support of many Demo admins. The last Navy man
in office was Carter.
\_ We all knew that. If the Republicans started it, it would
have been called the Red Angels.
\_ Don't tell *me* that. Tell it to the we-hate-the-blue-angels
they're-such-a-waste types above. -RIP guy |
| 2007/4/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:46409 Activity:nil |
4/21 the Gun debate will be settled in the SCOTUS
http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110009971
\_ The Supreme Court will only decide on what they think the
comma means; they won't decide on whether it's a good idea or
not. -tom
\_ ^will^may^ - Review by the USSC is discretionary. The above
is also somewhat inaccurate b/c a split existed before the
D.C. Cir. weighed in - the 9th and 5th have had opposing
views for several years. Also the D.C. Cir.'s opinion only
address Congressional regulation not State regulation. It
is conceivable that different rights/rules apply (e.g. 7th
amend.) |
| 2007/4/21-25 [Reference/Military] UID:46406 Activity:nil |
4/21 I'm in the middle of reading Max Brooks' World War Z, and while I am,
in this real world that we live in, a believer in gun control (and
even, given the right circumstances, gun elimination), this book makes
me want to purchase and secure a reasonable firearm and ammo. Just
saying.
\_ ob "I was just in the middle of reading mein kampf, and ..."
\_ "...and this book makes me want to purchase a firearm and
shoot a bunch of nazis"? 'Cos that's what I'm getting here. |
| 2007/4/20-24 [Reference/Military] UID:46399 Activity:moderate |
4/21 from all these postings on gun control.
I agree that only 1 group of psychos who can't control
themselves should not be allowed to own guns .. that group is..
Critical Mass ... they are psychos..
I think that's why some bicyclist on here are for gun control
because they are psychos in themselves and can't control
themselves, yet at the same time are elitist ... - duck
\_ Lot of vested interest in keeping the gun lobby .both pro
and cons say i have a middle instead of licensing/regulating
why t we license bullets on a very strict basis, guns without
bullets are a piece of metal, if we can regulate bullets, say
one bullet only per gun only, wont that be a good control, gun
makers , NRA will be happy, while killing will come down as
bullets will be in short ..just a thought
\_ ARMS = GUN + AMMO (BULLETS)
\_ I am yet to hear a pro-gun argument that makes sense
except its fun (for deer hunters & man-child navy
seal worshippers) and its allowed by the
constitution. Anybody who thinks that an army
that breaches US defenses can be held back by the
militia must be watching too much of Military Raj and
Independence Day sort of movies.In the book
Freakonomics, the author argues that swimming pools
are more fatal than guns, drowning accidents being
more common statistically. Fair enough, but the key
difference I think is that it is difficult to drown
39 other people along with yourself.I am sure
mountaineering would be even more fatal but that is
hardly the issue, for the same reason of zero impact
on those who do not take the plunge. On the issue of
the sting of others having it better, unfortunately
it is part of the mental makeup of most people. We do
know of certain doctrines whose mass appeal kind of
rests on this instinct to pull down others rather
than uplift oneself. Mobs are built out of negative
energies and not positive intent. No one can be as
blind and devastating as a self righteous man as he
sees no wrong in his actions, has a unipolar
worldview and has taken uncertainty out of his life.
At least in the US this s views are treated as an
absurdity. In certain other countries, if this guy
reigns himself back a little bit, he can go
mainstream with his views if not his actions.
(Who????????????) that breaches US defenses can be
held back by the militia must be watching too much of
Military Raj and Independence Day sort of movies.In
the book Freakonomics, the author argues that
swimming pools are more fatal than guns ,drowning
accidents being more common statistically. Fair
enough, but the key difference I think is that it is
difficult to drown 39 other people along with
yourself.I am sure mountaineering would be even more
fatal but that is hardly the issue, for the same
reason of zero impact on those who do not take the
plunge. On the issue of the sting of others having it
better, unfortunately it is part of the mental makeup
of most people. We do know of certain doctrines whose
mass appeal kind of rests on this instinct to pull
down others rather than uplift oneself. Mobs are
built out of negative energies and not positive
intent. No one can be as blind and devastating as a
self righteous man as he sees no wrong in his
actions, has a unipolar worldview and has taken
uncertainty out of his life.
At least in the US this s views are treated as an absurdity. In
certain other countries, if this guy reigns himself back a little bit,
he can go mainstream with his views if not his actions.man
\_ No wonder people think that Stanford is better
\_ gungrabbers should look in the mirror
\_ "You talkin' to ME?"
\_ Militias are very powerful. Look at Iraq and Vietnam.
One not only has to conquer a country, but occupy it.
However, the primary entity you are protecting
yourself from is the US government. It is a powerful
deterrent to, say, a military coup when a substantial
portion of law abiding citizens own a weapon. I am
in favor of controls on handguns, but not rifles.
It is much harder to conceal a rifle.
\- are you referring to the NVA as a "militia"?
what does that make say al queda? a club?
\_ The Viet Cong. Al Qaeda is a terrorist
organization, but the Iraqi insurgency is
very much made up of former military organized
militia-style. Same with Afghanistan for that
matter.
\_ Militias are most powerful in the face of an absence
of a militarily strong, unified, and at least apparently
legitimate central government. When the central gov.
has a strong military and local/national support,
militias are usually either dispersed or marginalized to
the point of non-effectiveness. (Cf. Ruby Ridge, Waco.)
In Iraq, a lot of the same groups that get lumped in
with the insurgency spend a lot of time maintaining
order within their own local areas or repelling attacks
from other militias; there are a lot of folks more
divided by tribal affiliations than religious factions.
Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency |
| 2007/4/20-24 [Reference/Military] UID:46388 Activity:nil |
4/20 Bad numbers on both sides of the gun debate. -emarkp
http://csua.org/u/iio
\_ Hey, great, we have a lower gun death rate than El Salvador and
Albania! Good thing we have all those guns for self-defense! -tom
\_ I think a more informative way to look at gun deaths in the US
is to treat suburbs, for instance, differently from gang-infested
inner cities. Generally if you leave the inner cities, gun rates
in the US are comparable to Europe. It is true that gangs and
inner cities are a big problem in the states, but I don't think
the cultural issues involve are mainly (or at all) caused by guns.
\_ If only we could live in a soft-gloved police state like the UK
all would be well!
\_ Woo Hoo! USA! USA! USA! New national slogan: "It's better
than civil war" -tom |
| 2007/4/20-24 [Reference/Military] UID:46385 Activity:moderate |
4/20 Penn & Teller on 2nd Amendment
http://www.washingtonceasefire.com/content/view/47/45
\_ Glenn Beck will be talking about gun control tonight on HNN, and
Penn will be on.
\_ Its a cute argument and fairly well presented, but every gun
control advocate would argue that taking guns away from everyone
will decrease gun posession percentage all around. They say that
criminals will get guns regardless, while that may be true, making
supply illegal would severely limit the availibility. One could see
parallels between this and drug laws. Making supply (of any sort)
illegal makes prosecution and enforcement much easier. Not that
I support all drug policy, just using its effects as an example.
-mrauser
\_ I'm sorry but the right to bear arms was not penned to
wage war against furry creatures, it was to defend the
person against militia men and any standing army (foreign
and domestic)
\_ And you feel that having a handgun will protect you against
a tank, cruise missles, and f14 planes? You have no ability
to protect yourself against a military. If thats really
what you want you should be lobbying for the ability for
citizens to purchase tanks (should they have the money). A
citizen militia is never going to face a modern army.-mrauser
\_ no. but those soldiers wont be coming back home to loved
ones. it's not like the army would be fighting a war
in a foriegn country.. they have to come back and live
with the people they killed..
... so the best resistance is destroy the homes and
business of those in the military trying to destroy our
freedom. If they use F15s , tanks they run the risk
of killing their own family members..
\_ it's much more likely that you'd have more localized
conflict (more like the Civil War) where this would
not be much of an issue for the fed military. A bunch
of yahoos with civilian guns is pretty much going to
get "pwned", even by just normal infantry. A terrorist
campaign is also not going to have much effect; by
nature it would be limited in scope and lose the
propaganda war. Either the gov't wins or you get some
form of anarchy. In any case it's unclear that handguns
are needed for this.
\_ the gov't loses and the US Constitution will be
restored (i guess libs call that anarchy)
There is no propaganda war to win.. it would be
a fight for freedom...
\_ Hahahahahahaha. Everyone loved that guy who
bombed the OK building right?
\_ Tell the Iraqis this.
\_ Why?
\_ how many Millions died in the civil war?
Besides , this time the south will be on the side
of the Pro gunners because they love their guns
\_ What?
\_ THat's what the redcoats thought. Of course, no one in a
tank would ever sympathize with a revolutionary.
\_ And there again is a fine argument for not bothering to
let the citizenry own guns.
\_ perhaps u prefer to stand next to a ditch and
get gunned down? Wait a minute!! you want to be
the one that guns down pro gunners and conservatives!
that's what this is all really about...
only way liberals can win is to take away all the
guns.. get control of the army and then kill off
all the conservatives... that's your plan.. we know..
\_ the 2nd amendment describes the state govt fighting against
the federal government. i concede the federal government
probably has control of launch codes and can nuke a state,
but i feel stupid for participating in this discussion.
\_ I think everyone should be allowed to have a gun as long
as they regularily fire it against representatives of
the goverment. |
| 2007/4/20-21 [Reference/Military] UID:46380 Activity:low |
4/19 Kind of nice to see the level of detail in the second amendment
discussion. Thanks to all who contributed. Makes me feel
hopeful for democracy and the better angels of our nature.
\_ In US the there can never be a gun control because that is
the way the society has developed. You and me and many
others understands the invalidity of the second amendment
but to make it through the head of these lunatics will take
ages or may be many such tragedies. What irks me most where
is the PROPER BACK GROUND CHECK. If they had a process of
checking the back ground thoroughly then any person with
little sense would have known that this guy does not deserve
to have even a spoon in his hand, forget a gun. There is no
shortage of resources to dig out every bit of information of
a gun holder and YES if a person wants to have a gun they
cannot argue for the right to privacy. Nobody should be able
to go to a store and buy a gun, the people who are
interested to possess a gun should enroll themselves and a
thorough check should be done and even then I am sure
incidents will happen but may reduce a lot. The general
apathy to everything which is not your own among the people
of this country has to change. This guy was crying out loud
that he needed help and yet not enough was done to really
help him. His parents were ignorant so they could not fathom
the extend of his cruel mind but what about the rest of the
society? This general lack of compassion among the people
of this country often makes us (I mean my family) wonder
whether we should continue to live in this country or go
back to our own land. This rush, always to do something or
get something done all the time where nobody has time to
look around and reach out for others is really missing. You
know we have a guy from certain country in our research
lab. Believe me nobody talks to him, nobody asks him for
lunch out, he comes and goes at his own time mostly avoiding
the vibrant time in the lab. Last Christmas I remember him
telling me that he is feeling very lonely because the only
thing he would be doing during the holidays is work. I felt
bad for him then but I did not really call him to my place
even though I had several get togethers. This tendency of us
to be always with the Best and seen around with the Best has
made us forget that we should not leave anybody behind. I
am sorry for this long note but someway I was unburdening my self.
\_ In US the there can never be a abolition because that is the
way society has developed...
But, really, OP, you were really asking for it by congratulating
the motd crowd on civility and sense.
\_ It is kind of tough to respond to you, especially with
this kind of a format. But as I could understand from
your response, you are of the opinion that we are in
need of sophisticated weapons to defend
ourselves. When you carry that argument too far, ther
only way we can be safe is if we barricade our homes,
lay mines outside, arm ourselves with rocket launchers
and machine guns, because we can be invaded anytime.
And I agree, that notion would not be too absurd, but
that is exactly why we humans organized as a society
and founded cities and eventually countries, so that
they could get on with life and hand off their
security to a professional military and police force
funded by part of what they earn (as tax). If you feel
that the government you elected cannot fulfil the duty
assigned to them of protecting your life and property,
it is then probably time for you to think about
changing the government.
If you do not empower that regulating force to control
the possession of items which are beyond the reason of
self-defence, then I guess it is kind of tough to
entrust anyone with any job. I am not going to take
the argument much further, seeing that you have a view
that is completely orthogonal to mine and one that is
kind of tough for me to comprehend.
I see securing people as a job that we let someone
else do. I pay people to write software for me, I pay
people to protect me. Yes, I could do it all myself,
but then I would not be able to do things that I am
good at. I say this in the context of your argument
that students should and would be well trained in the
responsible use of these weapons. Contrary to what you
might believe, military school might not be the best
place to be.
I refuse to fire a gun, and in your world, I would not
survive too many days, maybe mothers are a breed that
is undesirable in that scheme of things. |
| 2007/4/19 [Reference/Military] UID:46374 Activity:nil |
4/19 Tom does believe in Self defense and the right to bear arms
(see evidence)
Tom. so what happens when your ship if fueless?
you get scummed (killed).. what happens if you have
fuel? Tom runs away.. Ergo.. possession of firearms
(fuel) leads to peaceful situations - duck
\_ Fuel is not a firearm; torps and phasers are. If you
try your to SC-ogg when I have fuel, I'll just kill
you and take the planet. Ergo, possession of
firearms leads to genocide. -tom
\_ NO!.. SOunds like Self-Defense to me!
So you do have it in you!! u just dont know it.. - Duck
(see.. Tom needs fuel for self defense and will use it)
\_ SMACK! -tom
\_ DOOSH!! - duck
\_ Just let the clue CCW , don't allow the clueless twinks to CCW
and hope for the best.. - duck |
| 2007/4/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:46373 Activity:high |
4/19 Just last month, two private citizens stopped a potential shooting
spree because they had guns: http://csua.org/u/ii6
\_ And?
\_ I know this is going to spur another thread on whether sources
matter, but I'm not finding this in the mainstream news. Help?
\_ Scripps isn't mainstream?
\_ Scripps is a news-service; the story is being quoted from
The Commercial Appeal out of Memphis. This appears to be the
_only_ source of this story out there in the Internet.
\_ Here's the local news story:
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=43109
\_ Believe me, I want to believe this story is true, but now
I've got a Commercial Appeal story and an AP story that
doesn't actually appear in a search of the AP archives.
Please help!
\_ Ah, so the local stories are also in on the conspiracy.
Got it.
\_ What conspiracy? If you see a news story from only
one source, it's hard to tell if it's news or
anecdote. Are you not familiar with urban legends?
\_ Found the Commercial Appeal story, and it's worthy
of Paul Harvey: http://csua.org/u/iib (Commercial
Appeal). Roberson's side of the story:
'Roberson, 56, said Wednesday evening that he'd been
rear-ended by a black car carrying six men.
Roberson said he called police, then when the men
got out of their car, he reached down, got his gun
and tucked it into his back pocket.
At some point, Roberson said most of the men
dispersed, leaving just the driver and a "heavyset"
man. Roberson said the large man then pulled a gun.
"I didn't know what his intentions were, so I came
out with mine. I started shooting," said Roberson,
who is licensed to carry a gun.
Roberson, who was charged with reckless
endangerment, admits to some regrets about the
affair.
"I probably could've handled it a little better,"
added Roberson, who said he'd put his gun away
before the brothers arrived. "Just leave it ...
alone."
So now we know the rest of the story, and it's not
that a well-armed citizenry leads to less shootings.
\_ Great example of how the easy availability of guns leads to
shootings. -tom
\_ So what is your plan to eliminate guns? Passing anti-gun laws
won't eliminate them from criminal hands (that's why we call
them criminals, they don't follow laws). Are you advocating
shutting down the gun makers so guns simply cease to become
available and rounding up all the fire arms currently out there?
\_ The shooter at VA Tech and the shooter in this story both
had legal permits; they weren't criminals until they
started shooting. It doesn't take a whole lot of
imagination to figure out ways to reduce gun ownership. -tom
\_ The VAT guy had been sent to the loony ward for help and
was a known problem. He should not have been given a gun
permit. We don't know much about this other guy so I can't
comment. Anyway, I'm not very imaginative, so what is
your plan to reduce/eliminate gun violence?
\_ Medical records are private, and I'm sure the NRA
wouldn't be a big fan of legislation that barred
anyone who's been treated for depression from owning
a gun. Ya think?
My plan is to enact legislation like England's,
develop gun turn-in programs, and confiscate them
from criminals. -tom
\_ Medical records aren't private when someone is
determined to be a threat. And *anyone* can be
hauled in for a 3 day evalution with little more
than a social worker's say so. And what the NRA
thinks of anything is meaningless. That's red
herring material.
So your plan is to do what a number of cities already
do with turnin programs and to confiscate guns from
criminals which already happens. Ok. Your plan is
in place and has failed. Now what?
\_ Uh, I'm saying that a gun shop can't look at
someone's medical records to determine if
they can sell him a gun.
And you left out a rather important part of the
plan, which is to enact gun control laws which,
you know, keep people from buying more guns.
And yes, my plan is in place, and has succeeded.
-tom
\_ No one said a gun shop can look at medical
records. What do you think the waiting period
is for? They're sending your name off to get
checked for things like having a criminal
record or being a lunatic. And your idea of
gun control laws will do exactly nothing to
keep guns from the hands of real criminals
while disarming their potential victims, the
rest of us. Your plan has failed to get guns
from the hands of real criminals while making
it very hard for responsible citizens to
protect themselves. Good work!
\_ Your medical record is not checked during
the waiting period, so not only is your
conjecture ridiculous, your facts are
wrong. -tom
\_ The NICS system does include records of
whether people have been committed. So
if a court concludes that you're a threat
to yourself and others, has you committed
to a mental hospital, and you later try
to buy a gun, the NICS system will flag
that and reject you when the firearms
dealer runs you through NICS at the time
of purchase. Incidentally, a NICS check
only takes a few minutes in most cases.
A waiting period is only required at a
federal level when it doesn't go that
quickly (for whatever reason -- confusion
in their records, or just from NICS
being down). A waiting period is usually
imposed at the state level (such as the
ten day wait in California). NICS did
involve a waiting period in the early
days, but that went away by design as
the system matured. From what I've seen
in the news, it sounds like the judge
stopped short of something that would
have shown up in NICS.
--alawrenc
\_ VT nutjob was not committed. (It's
very difficult to commit anyone
these days.) -tom
\_ Being adjudicated as a mental
defective will also disqualify you
and show up in NICS. The point I
was trying to make is that things
can show up in a NICS check to
disqualify you based on your mental
health without the gun shop having
access to medical records. If you
get rejected by NICS, the FFL who
made the NICS request doesn't know
why.
--alawrenc
\_ So lets say that we ban all gun factories except those
that sell to law enforcement and the military, what is
to stop criminals from either (1) importing their guns
from elsewhere (a la the drug trade) or (2) making guns
illegally? I mean do you really want the gun trade to
go underground and turn that into another debacle like
the whole drug thing?
\_ The VA Tech shooting was not done by "a criminal".
Neither was the shooting in this article. It will
still be possible to obtain guns, just like any other
contraband; should we legalize heroin, since it's
still possible to get it on the street? (Actually
if you're a libertarian nutjob, don't answer that.)
-tom
\_ Of course he's a criminal, he decided to murder
a whole bunch of people. He's probably not that
stupid and could very possibly have acquired
an illegal gun had there been a handgun ban.
Or modified a legal gun to make it concealable.
\_ He wasn't a criminal when he bought the gun,
over the counter. Surely you aren't suggesting
that it's just as easy to obtain heroin as
alcohol now. -tom
\_ You make a HUGE assumption - if guns were
not available OTC then the nutjob wouldn't
have been able to get any guns. If one is
determined to use a gun in connection w/ a
crime, then one will find a way to obtain
a gun. Furthermore, let's say we ban all
the guns, and criminals switch to using
knives, swords, crossbows, &c. What then
ban anything that could be used as a weapon?
Ban all classes that might teach you how to
make a weapon? Well at least the next gen
of ugs wouldn't have to suffer the 7 series.
\_ How about this: Let's just ban guns,
because unlike knives, swords, and
crossbows, they are known to be commonly
used in fatal attacks in the U.S., and
there is plenty of precedent for
ways to control their distribution. -tom
\_ Swords, knives, &c. have been killing
people for MUCH longer than guns have.
What effective precedents are there
for controlling gun distribution that
would ACTUALLLY keep guns out of the
hands of criminals?
The whole failure of your argument
is the assumption that w/o OTC access
to guns, those who commit crimes would
be deprived of access to them. That
is not a realistic assumption. Do you
really think this nutjob wouldn't have
found some other way to get his guns?
\_ Yes, I think there's a big difference
between being able to walk into a
store and buy a gun, and having to
find some black-market way to
obtain one. It's the same difference
that keeps more people drinking
alcohol than smoking pot. And
there exist other countries which
manage to keep guns out of the
hands of nutjobs. It's obviously not
impossible--it's being done. -tom
\_ Yeah, banning guns has completely
stopped violent crime in Australia
and the UK. Oops, not really.
\_ Strawman. Both the U.K. and
Australia have murder rates
less than half of ours. -tom
\_ More to the point, the number
of mass fatalities due to
violent crime is lower in places
where guns are banned.
\_ I guess we just disagree. I think
that you might stop the occasional
spur of the moment crime by making
it harder to purchase guns, but I
don't think that a ban will affect
people like the nutcase in VT.
Such people will manage to find
guns just like ugs at Cal manage
to find pot on a regular basis.
I just think the marginal upside
of safety from gun violence is
not enough to outweigh the loss
of overall freedom that we as a
people will have from our gov.
I think my freedom is worth the
risk that I will be a victim of
gun violence. You don't. I can
accept that.
\_ Could you explain, then, why
our murder rate is double
that of comparable countries?
-tom
\_ I do not think there are
any comparable countries.
Every where else on earth
is less free than the US.
Perhaps the price for my
freedom is that some nut
will kill me using a gun
he bought at Walmart, but
I'm willing to pay that
price.
\_ Uh, how is the U.S. any
more "free" than the
U.K. or Australia? Other
than gun ownership. -tom
\_ We do have a more open
legislative process than
at least the UK.
-scotsman
\_ Can you walk down the
street without being
watched by the gvt?
You can't and no.
They are on track to
1984. Only lack of
funds for cameras in
every home is holding
them back, they have
them every- where
else. The people are
certainly suffici-
ently brow beaten for
it. You can't even
legally defend
yourself or another in
the UK. If the UK is
your idea of a free
place, I'd rather risk
getting shot, thanks.
\_ You didn't mention
Australia. And
there are plenty
of government
cameras in the US.
-tom
\_ I don't know
\_ Drawing on this argument, are
there any studies/documentaries
showing how hard/easy it is to
obtain a gun on the so-called
black market? Are there studies
comparing black market sales of
of firearms in countries that
ban guns and those that, like
the US, regulate irregularly?
anything about Australia so I didn't comment. Unlike a number
of people here I restrict myself to things I know something
about. And no, the number of cameras in the US which are
mostly in gas stations and banks is trivial next to what the
UK has done and plans to expand to. There's no way you can
make any serious claim that the US == UK on watching their
citizens. It's even worse there because the intent of the
cameras is to exert social control, not improve security such
as here with banks. Do you really not know what is going on
in the UK with their 1984 style camera plans?
\_ Do you really not know what's going on in the U.S.?
There are cameras at almost every intersection in
San Francisco now. They're starting to show up on
speed limit signs, too. Also, you stated that
"there are no comparable countries," and
"everywhere else is less free than the U.S." That
implies knowledge of why Australia is not
comparable to the U.S. Certainly, not including
Australia in your response is a dodge. -tom
\_ We need a War on Guns.
\_ not everyone sprays and prays like the runner buttorper u r
\_ "I was addicted to Netrek. The fame, the success, the
glory." Good to see you back, Duck. -tom
\_ 2 INL rings baby! CMU and GB! hehe
\_ Tom. so what happens when your ship if fueless?
you get scummed (killed).. what happens if you have
fuel? Tom runs away.. Ergo.. possession of firearms
(fuel) leads to peaceful situations - duck
\_ Fuel is not a firearm; torps and phasers are. If you
try your to SC-ogg when I have fuel, I'll just kill
you and take the planet. Ergo, possession of
firearms leads to genocide. -tom
\_ NO!.. SOunds like Self-Defense to me!
So you do have it in you!! u just dont know it-duck
\_ The funny thing about this story is that it basically goes like
this:
1) Minor traffic accident
2) Minor argument
3) Unknown person allegedly pulls out a gun
4) Robinson pulls out a legal gun and starts shooting
5) Robinson puts gun away
6) Yahoo in pickup truck pulls out a legal gun, threatens Robinson
The funny part is that this is being posted as an example of why
we need *more* guns! Like this interaction went better because
people had guns. If anything, it points out the stupid things
people do when they have guns, and that one doesn't need to be
a "criminal" to do something stupid with a gun that could get
someone killed. -tom
\_ That's one version. How about this version: not knowing Robinson
had a gun, they figured they push him around and maybe beat him
up. But they were wrong. Then another armed citizen comes up
and is fortunately armed and defuses the whole thing. Without
guns involved, this could have easily turned into, "Man in minor
fender bender beaten to death, police seek possible witnesses".
\_ Unlike yours, my version is supported by the actual story
as reported. -tom
\_ Duh. My version is the hypothetical if guns weren't
involved. Try again with reading comprehension > 0.
\_ According to the article, there was only one guy
left *before* any guns were involved. Try again
with clue > 0. -tom
\_ Yeah, a big thug who was looking to beat him up,
like I said. He didn't pull the gun for nothing.
Back to reading class.
\_ ??? R says he was tailed by 6 dudes in car. He
gets out of his truck. They get out of their car
five of them split. The remaining guy pulls gun.
R pulls gun and starts shooting. Bros. arrive and
draw gun on R. Large dude disappears. Bros. place
R under citizen arrest. By any reading of the
article, the five dudes split before R pulled his
gun. -!tom
\_ here is a related question. The whole second amendment thing is
wrt a "well-regulated militia". So how does that allow someone
to own a gun unless they are part of such a militia. And , last
I checked, state militias went out with the civil war and laws
against treason/overthrow of the government. So, shouldn't
the whole second amendment thing be moot as a justification for
personal handgun use /ownership? --not a troll
\_ Because the "militia" at that time was all adult males capable of
using a firearm, not something like the National Guard we see
today. Remember that at that time most people were farmers or
tradesmen and the government was trivially small. There was little
"well regulated" government anything at the time.
\_ I understand the past relevance; but not the current one.
Gov't is very different now than it was back then. As I
understand, it was supposed to also act as a stopgap to
an overreaching Federal gov't (or a king). I just don't
understand the contemporary relevance. Unless of course
you beleive in the right/need for the violent overthrow of
the government. No sane person would think that way.
(At least I hope not).
\_ one could say the contemporary purpose is the same as
the past one: as a deterrent. no sane person would
want to start a global thermonuclear war.
\_ Every NRA member should be issued a thermonuclear
device to be used in self-defense only. Because
who can you trust, if not NRA members? -tom
\_ This is actually a good question for which there is no
clear answer (depending on your politics).
I am not a 2d expert, but what I know from my Con Law
class, and related, is that there are two views re the
rights in the 2d. To inform our discussion, the amend.
is quoted below:
[i] A well regulated militia, [ii] being
necessary to the security of a free state,
[iii] the right of the people to keep and
bear arms, [iv] shall not be infringed.
(I have numbered the phrases for reference purposes.)
Phrase iii seems to recongize that that "the people"
have a right to "keep and bear arms." This is what
many people call the "personal right" to arms.
The difficulty comes when one tries to determine the
import of phrases i and ii.
One view is that these phrases qualify the personal
right. Thus the right recongized is a right of the
states to maintain an armed militia. The modern view
on this is that the term militia means something like
the national guard, which can be deployed by a state's
governor. Basically, Congress couldn't pass a law that
prevented the states from arming thier national guard
units.
A different view is that phrase i and ii recognize a
separate right (the right of the states) or merely
explain the personal right; the personal right exists
separate and apart from the other language. This view
comes from the fact that many of the other amendments
recognize multiple rights in condensed language. It is
also supported by fact that at the time the amendment
was adopted, the term militia was widely understood to
mean all adult males. (Some dispute whether this is
strictly true, b/c why would the framers use the term
"people" and "militia" if the terms were basically the
same).
If you are really interested, you should read the
following cases:
[1] PARKER v. D.C., No. 04-7041 (D.C. Cir. Mar. 9, 2007),
http://urltea.com/ec4 (cadc.uscourts.cov - pdf)
(holding that the 2d amend. recognizes a personal
right).
[2] US v. EMERSON, 270 F.3d 203 (5th Cir. 2001),
http://urltea.com/ec6 (findlaw.com)
(holding that the 2d amend. recongizes a personal
right).
[3] SILVEIRA v. LOCKYER, 312 F.2d 1052 (9th Cir. 2002)
http://urltea.com/ec8 (ca9.uscourts.gov - pdf)
(holding that the 2d amend. does not recognize a
personal right).
[4] US v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 175 (1939)
http://urltea.com/ec9 (findlaw.com)
(questioning whether the 2d amend. provided any
personal right, absent evidence tending to show
that possession of a particular weapon had some
reasonable relationship to the preservation or
efficiency of a militia).
\_ the "well regulated" modifier I believe was meant to address
a real fear of mob rule and other acts of the unwashed
citizenry. thus, we see the correct interpretation of the
second amendment - a balance between gun ownership as a
fundamental right and guarantee against government tyranny,
and regulation to prevent going loco with your Glock.
the core issue is in where you strike this balance. |
| 2007/4/18-20 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:46364 Activity:moderate |
4/18 I can't hit shit with my dominant hand with a .22
How the hell did Korean Shooter manage to shoot 50 people?
Did Chow Yun Fat train him?
\_ Some people are naturals...I personally took a pistol course
offered through my martial arts class taught by the same people who
train FBI agents. AT the end we were tested, I got an expert level
marksmanship (highest). I hit the target every single time (50
rounds)...only two rounds were not within the first circle of the
target. This was all while moving, at varying distances. Note, I've
never owned a gun before or since. I do have better than 20-20
eyesight. -scottyg
\_ the sheeple just sat there waiting for their turn
\- he did a lot of "hand exercises"
\_ lots of CS. many victims were shot 3+ times, some in the head,
which is what you do in CS -- shoot for the body while they jump
around, and then for the head when they slow down.
besides, most dead people were found in two classrooms, with him
blocking the only exit (no backdoor).
he shot a girl in the mouth.
\_ What does CS stand for?
\_ Counter-Strike
\_ Unless he was playing CS on a Wii or with a Light Gun, I don't
see how this translates. Your mouse is not a pistol.
\_ ob CS + hands-on practice + some dexterity
a friend who is a trained shooter pulls single shots
between multi-second pauses playing a stand-up arcade game.
I agree just CS is not sufficient.
\_ Glock 19 comes with 3 15round mags. From the picture of the
hollow points, and the statement of the gun store, he bought
Remington HPs - the cheapest HP - because they come in qty 50
Most HPs are sold in qty 20. |
| 2007/4/18-21 [Reference/Military] UID:46353 Activity:moderate |
4/18 "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be
reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (The Dali Lama -
May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times), "Among the many misdeeds of
the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act
depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest" (Mohandas K.
Gandhi - The Story of My Experiments with Truth, Page 403,
Dover paperback edition, 1983), "That rifle on the wall of
the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of
democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
(George Orwell), "The world is filled with violence.
Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens
should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent
people will lose." (James Earl Jones).
\_ 1) I doubt anyone would disagree with the Dali Lama's statement,
but it's irrelevant to the discussion.
2) Do you really think people in India view a prohibition on guns
as the blackest misdeed of British rule?
3) The other two quotes are just silly.
-tom
\_ 1) It is relevant because you can't shoot back if you don't have
a gun.
2) If they had guns would there have been an armed revolt much
earlier which kicked the British out sooner with less loss
of Indian life and abuse at British hands? We can't know.
\_ Actually Netaji's armed revolt failed. One is almost
greatful that the inane socialism of Gandhi and Nehru
prevailed b/c Netaji was allied with the Axis powers.
\_ Well, remember he did go to the russians first.
it is kind of interesting that his loose canonness
freked out the british enough, they wanted to
assisinate him [so in that sense, he was a bit
beyond the "merely" imprisoned gandhi and neheru].
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4152320.stm
if you want a better candidate for the darkest
aspect of east india company and british [govt]
rule in india, it is the many famines that
ocurred because of the nature of their governance.
[remember the EIC increased the profits extracted
from india over the 1770 famine].
might one not see cooperation with the japanese
army in a slightly different light in the context
of the bengal famine of 1943. if you buy the widely
believed analysis of amarty sen, that puts +4m
deaths partly on churchill's head. and remember
stalin was "our" ally.
Jodi tor dak shune keu na ashe
Tobe akla cholo re ...
http://networks.ecse.rpi.edu/~kartikc/jodi.htm
\_ I am an indian citizen and have shot a gun in india
so i suspect i am better informed on this matter than
you are. the statement above refers to the Arms Act
issued a couple of decades after the indian mutiny of
1857 and proper analogy of that Act would be if congress
passed a statue in the 1850s "clarifying" the 2nd amd
to read "black people south of the mason dixon line
cannot own guns or be employed in gun factories,
unless their masters will vouch for them." this is not
a statement of gun rights but the double standards that
were de rigeur in colonial legislation, and it's
impinging on self determination and soverignty. you
know there is a reason the A in Act is capitalized.
india today, like most of the rest of the world, sees
guns as mostly something owned by cops and the military
and low lifes [the eqivalent of gangbangers ... when
there is a fight, most bring cricket bats, chains and
field hockey sticks and these things that are a cross
between a machete and a hatchet called a "da", but a
few more "professional"/accomplished goondas have
illegal "shoni-night specials"] and some decadent rich
people [i went shooting with this dood on at his country
estate. this guy literally owned a village, his wife was
referred to mostly only partly jokingly as "the queen"...
referred to only partly jokingly as "the queen"...
it was basically a feudal set up]. there is no common
gun culture there, almost nobody has senitmental memories
of shooting cans off a fence post with granddad on the
back40, going hunting with their dogs and buddies etc.
3) Why are they silly? Because you disagree?
\_ 1) You can't get shot at if the screwed-up
college kid can't get a gun in the first place.
Whether guns should be easily available is a
completely orthogonal to whether self-defense
is permissible.
\_ Screwball is going to get a gun. We've had a War on
Drugs for decades and drug use has only climbed and
spawned entirely new levels of violence unheard of
before the WoD.
\_ Uh, drug use is down 50% from 1979. -tom
2) We can and do know that no one sane views gun
control as "the blackest misdeed of British
rule."
\_ I'm glad we all automatically agree with you simply
because to not to do is insane.
3) They're ideological assertions with no meaning. -tom
\_ Funny coming from the one most likely to post
ideological assertions on the motd with no backing.
Did you post #3 as some sort of inside joke?
\_ Still not clear on how the possession of firearms in the current
day and age somehow prevents the gov. from depriving us of our
civil liberties. It certainly didn't help Jose Padilla or the folks
at Ruby Ridge or Waco. In Pakistan, mind you, yes, I can see it.
But here in the States?
\_ Look at Britain. They're headed straight to 1984 and no one
blinks. No guns and looking at knives next. No right to
self defense. No right to assist another in need. Doomed.
\_ Did you take V for Vendetta as a history lesson?
\_ Where is this mythical Britain you are speaking of?
\_ Actually someone yesterday had a very good point. In Iraq
several hundred thousand (million?) lightly armed people
are making a mess of things for the "feds," if you will.
If things every get sufficiently out of hand, maybe you
won't be able to stop the feds, but you and your closest
1 million neighbors might be able to.
\_ What do you see as the odds of the US being invaded/occupied
a la Red Dawn or Iraq? 'Cos I'm betting they're even lower
now than they were in the 80s when we actually had an army
arrayed against us.
\_ I think the odds of the US being invaded are irrelevant
wrt the right to keep and bear arms. The purpose is not
protect the people from invasion (external). The purpose
is to protect the people from our own government acting
against us. The idea is that if the populace is armed,
then the government hesitates to act recklessly b/c the
people could rise up against it.
\_ This undoubtedly made sense in the 18th century when
arms and technology were such that a populace with
access to firearms could effect a revolution against a
tyrannical government (i.e., King George III or his
potential succesor at the time, Kinge George Washington)
but given the military might of the US Armed Forces,
possession of non-military-grade gear translates
quickly into ineffectual resistance; at best, a pop.
with access to light arms and explosives can mount a
guerilla terrorist campaign, esp. if properly motivated
(say against an invading force), but against domestic
authorities? That sounds very much like a pipe dream.
\_ Although I generally agree, that post about the
situation in Iraq made me want to rethink my
position. The Insurgents have given the "feds,"
if you will, a sufficiently hard time. If the
government decides to nuke and pave Baghdad,
then all the AK-47s in the world won't do any
good, but short of something like that, small
arms have allowed generally non-military types
to resist military occupation.
\_ They've certainly made it uncomfortable and
dangerous, but the US Army still has the run of
the entire country and can arrest and detain at
will. The occupation of Iraq is being harried, not
resisted.
\_ I didn't see yesterday's motd, but this is a very very good
point, which occured to me about a year ago, and caused me
to change my mind about the second amendment. I'd always
been against gun control on general principle, but thought
that the idea that random citizens with guns prevented tyrrany
was silly. Now that the Red Dawn scenario is actually playing
out in Iraq, with untrained teenage hooligans bringing the
U.S. armed forces to its knees, I've become a much stronger
supporter of the 2nd amendment, and plan to buy a gun this
year.
\- have you noticed 10x the number of iraqis get killed
as us forces. are you the same person suggesting
your pollution credits should be proprotional to
your production/consumption? and what is bringing
the us army to a halt are explosives and suicide
attacks, and a desire to limit civilian casualties ...
not firefights against people with civilian class weapons.
finally these armed groups in iraq arent doing much
that is productive but just denying stability.
if things became anarchic the neighbors are probably
going to be the problems and the us govt the solution.
the lesson in iraq may be: tyranny is better than
anarchy. the people in the ancien regime were probably
better off than people during the 30yrs war.
\_ yeah, because we really want to emulate what's happening
in Iraq right now.
The idea that the U.S. government is Coming For You is
simply ridiculous. -tom
\_ You trust our government?
\_ if you dont, your choice is to move to canada
or spain, not to buy a gun. besides trust them
to/not to do what? imminent domain your house?
reneg on social welfare safety net? take your
gun away? inject you with syphilis? listen
to your phone calls? watch you search for assp0rn?
\_ The reason I remain a US citizen is b/c I
trust our government more than any other
on this earth. But, that doesn't mean that
I trust our government very much at all.
I, of course, am severely biased b/c I
believe that all government, if unchecked,
slowly expands to take away the rights of
the people who created it. The only check
I see is to instill fear in those who run
the machinery of the government that a
sufficiently enraged populace has the
ability to retake their rights by force.
Is my belief at all realistic? Hell No.
But then again I am a bit of romantic
and may have read too much Thomas Paine,
&c. during my illspent youth.
\_ I trust our government a hell of a lot more than
I trust Charlton Heston. -tom
\_ Didn't answer the question. You're ducking.
\_ The question is meaningless. I think the
likelihood that our government will ever
do anything that I will personally need to
take up arms against is absurdly remote;
far more remote than the real societal
problems caused by easy gun ownership. -tom
\_ "Everybody got a pistol, everybody got a 45 / And the philosophy
seem to be / At least as near as I can see / When other folks
give up theirs, I'll give up mine." (Gil Scott-Heron)
\_ my question of the day is, what does 2nd Amentment has anything to
do with the ban on hand gun? I mean, I don't care about 2nd
Amentment, but I don't see ban on hand gun has anything to do with
it. Our right to bear arm was never limitless, civilians is not
allow to own most of the weapons anyway, i don't see add hand gun
to the banned list alters anything.
\_ Well, to the http://packing.org people handguns are the only practical
guns that can be carried around for self defense. Go argue with
them.
\_ Consider the meaing of the words "shall not be infringed."
While many would agree that the right is not limitless, the
issue is where and how can a limit be drawn. Many fear that
it starts by adding one type of gun to the banned list, and
then another, and still another, and eventually the people
have no guns, the government (and criminals) have all the
guns and the people are screwed.
To think of it another way, first you add one book to the
banned list, then another, and another, finally the whole
library is empty. Would you support that?
\_ That's pretty much a slippery slope argument. It's not
a reasonable argument to tie handguns to rifles. They
are different beasts. Of course some rifles can be
modified fairly easily into a pistol-like size. But
that would also be illegal.
\_ As a non-gun owner and a pacifist I don't really
know what the difference between a handgun and
a rifle really is (other than size). If one seeks
the deterrent effect, it seems that rifles cannot
be regulated b/c handguns are not an effective
deterrent. The logic, therefore, is why regulate
the small potato, when one ought not regulate the
big potato.
I really do not know what the sol'n is to this
problem b/c I see that regulating firearms and not
regulating firearms both make us less safe in
different ways.
\_ There is a saying: "a handgun is what you use to
fight your way to your real gun."
\_ Well handguns are a lot more easily and commonly
used for crime. They are also less useful as
"deter government from fucking with you" weapons.
Silencers are banned because of their criminal
usefulness. It would only be logical to extend the ban
to handguns altogether. A shotgun is probably better for
"home defense" anyway. Someone with a rifle can still
kill a bunch of people, but generally not do the sorts
of massacres that have been getting headlines. Someone
can still snipe people one at a time, or run into some
place with his AK47 but this type of thing is easier
to see, contain and guard against. |
| 2007/4/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Reference/Military] UID:46342 Activity:nil 71%like:46337 |
4/17 http://tinyurl.com/3973ly (latimes.com) Killer, a 23-year-old senior English major, virtually never spoke to roommate or suitemates. Wrote a play for class where a kid suffocates his father-in-law with a rice krispy treat. http://tinyurl.com/34dewa (washingtonpost.com) Simultaneously wielded handguns in both hands during the attack. High school friends say he was a big fan of Counter-Strike. \_ Mr. Robinson? \_ Chau Yun-Fat style. |
| 2007/4/17 [Reference/Military] UID:46337 Activity:insanely high 71%like:46342 |
4/17 http://tinyurl.com/3973ly (latimes.com) http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech9.html Killer, a 23-year-old senior English major, virtually never spoke to roommate or suitemates. Wrote a play for class where a kid suffocates his father-in-law with a rice krispy treat. \_ Mr. Robinson? |
| 2007/4/17-18 [Reference/Military] UID:46330 Activity:nil |
4/17 http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.wounded/index.html for gun nuts wondering how a 9mm Glock could be so lethal, ER doc says every patient had at least three bullet wounds (not necessarily excluding defensive wounds from one round) \_ Everyone knows the South Koreans are the world's best computer game players. If you can blow away 30 enemies in seconds on the screen, I guess it translates over. |
| 2007/4/16-19 [Reference/Military] UID:46325 Activity:moderate |
4/16 http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007319.htm go down to "A student e-mails" If the students had a gun, they might have been able to stop it. -emarkp \_ And everyone who talks tough when safely at home is to be taken seriously now? \_ If the shooter didn't have a gun, it would have been stopped to begin with. -tom \_ unfortunately laws are there to discourage someone from doing harm to others at the cost of severe punishment but if the person such as this doesn't care about punishment because he doesn't plan to survive (suicide) then laws become meaningless. The deterrent is gone unless there is the fear of being shot by law-abiding armed citizens which there were on that campus not to long ago. The fact that guns are in the 2nd amendment prevents our government from lining up its citizens along the edge of a ditch and machine gunning them down for not following what the facist govermnment wants them to do.. but I take it you didn't believe in the holocaust either.. I believe anyone who listens to tom will one day end up in a line in from a ditch and get gunned down and buried easily. \_ if the Critical mass people obeyed the law then that incident would not have happened last week. you have unreasonable fears about people who CCW that they would shoot each other. Concealed carry people do not pull out their weapons because that is illegal (CONCEALment is required) If someone pulls out their gun and starts shooting people it becomes obvious who the immediate threat is. Just like in critical mass, do you have a major fear of a bicycle crash with lots of bikes together? it should happen more so since they break the law and pass red lights and they break and attack cars... \_ As much as I agree w/ you, the 2d is not an effective deterrent against federal abuse in this day and age. What use is a handgun against a tank or a ucav? \_ Have you seen Iraq lately? A few tens of million lightly armed citizens can really make a mess of things. lightly armed citizens can really make a mess of things. \_ I had not considered this. I guess if the gov. is reluctant to deploy its full destructive might against the opposing force, then small arms mights be an effective means of resistance. \_ Well, even in Vietnam, where the US did try to deploy full destructive force. \_ No we didn't. Today we bomb, sort of, then we ask them to talk with us a bit, then it doesn't go well so we bomb a bit more in some other unimportant place and whatever you do don't ever bomb too far north. Can't go around actually killing the enemy unfairly. \_ No H-Bombs were used in Vietnam, afaik. \_ if the Critical mass people obeyed the law then that incident would not have happened last week. you have unreasonable fears about people who CCW that they would shoot each other. Concealed carry people do not pull out their weapons because that is illegal (CONCEALment is required) If someone pulls out their gun and starts shooting people it becomes obvious who the immediate threat is. Just like in critical mass, do you have a major fear of a bicycle crash with lots of bikes together? it should happen more so since they break the law and pass red lights and they break and attack cars... \_ Damned pesky 2nd amendment. -emarkp \_ Actually no. It is entirely unclear that the 2d creates a personal right. Even if it does, the 2d has never been incorporated against the states, therefore the states remain free to regulate arms, provided that there is no state constitutional limit. In this case, Art I Sec. 13 Virginia's State Constitution imposes substantially the same limit as the 2d. If anyone is to "blame," it is the people of Virgina, who adopted this limitation in 1776 and have not seen fit to repeal it since then. I disagree w/ the assertion below that the 2d would not have been placed in the Constitution if the information known today was known to the framers. As the Constitution is derived from Common Law, and this right was recognized at Common Law since the late 1100s, it is likely that the framers would have included it. The life of the law is experience. \_ England is a common law country, yet they've essentially banned gun ownership. -tom \_ Thank god we parted company w/ them. \_ And they're also the most nanny-statish on-camera people on the planet, ever. The less we follow their example the better. \_ yeah, it's much worse to be shot with a camera than with a gun \_ Yes, it is. Shockingly, the founding fathers weren't able to anticipate 100% of the effects the pieces of paper they signed might have 200+ years later. It's farcial to assume that they would write the constitution the same way if they had the information available to us now. -tom \_ of course they would,, having a gun+ammo back then was the only way you could survive, indians, bears, murderers, rapist.. it's the great equalizer... but if only the murderer has the gun then it's a total massacre like yesterday.. somehow.. criminals (those who do not follow the law) will always find weapons and kill off law abiding folks.. It's not about gun laws, not about guns... it's about the stupid way laws are applied to the citizenry.. they are always applied against law abiding citizens.. if some people CCW on that campus then it would have ended sooner but the laws forced those who obey the law to not bring their guns to campus. \_ The shooter was not a criminal until he started shooting. It is almost certain that if he lived in someplace like the U.K., he would not have had the guns and ammo necessary to carry out his rampage. -tom \_ The framers included the 2d for precisely this reasons - they felt less free when the crown could take away their only ultimately effective means of resistance. In their minds the costs imposed on society by the free access to arms - violent crime - was outweighed by the cost imposed by restricting that right - government oppression. I undestand that you feel that this balance is no longer appropriate (or was never appropriate). If you suggest that we should rebalance today, why? Mere change in technology? If so, do you think that we should rebalance the 4th to give the police more or less ability to use things like thermal imagers to look into your house? Do you think that we should rebalance the 1st for things like hate speech, child pr0n on the Internet? The framers seemed to get so many things correct, that, to me, it is foolish to think they got this one wrong. \_ The other amendments are all much more fluid than the second, which has a large, well-funded group \_ The others are not at all fluid. \_ I disagree, the scope of the 1st, 4th, 6th, 14th, &c. have tended to expand and contract over the years. For example, the 4th exclusionary rule is currently on the wane. As is the emphasis on a warrant. The 6th right to assistance of counsel has also been significantly reduced in the last decade. Since the 40s the 14th has almost never been used for economic laws, but its coverage of other rights continues to expand. \- not a challenge but an inquiry: what are the sig changes to 6th amd right to counsel recently? for 4th, assume you mean US v LEON etc. ok tnx \_ Re 6th - I am off on dates but look at KUHLMANN v. WILSON, 477 US 436, holding that 6th requires cops to deliberately elicit stmt from suspect. It was long assumed that the test for interrogation under the 6th was much less or at least equal to interrogation under 5th (MIRANDA) b/c the 6th confers an affirmative right to assistance of counsel whereas 5th merely gets you a warning. Also, TEXAS v. COBB, 532 US 162, holding that 6th doesn't even apply to related offenses - the 5th again is better b/c it is not offense specific. The trend is toward weaker 6th. (and weaker 5th, e.g. DICKERSON v US, 530 US 428 holding only that stmt in violation of MIRANDA can't be used in the DA's case in chief - but DA remains free to use for impeachment, sentencing, &c.) Re 4th - Consider HUDSON v MICHIGAN, 126 S. Ct. 2159, holding that MAPP exclusion not required for a knock notice violation AND holding (in dicta) that as long as the cops could have acted legally (ie got a warrant) the doctrine of inevitable discovery can sanitize a bad actions. Implication of the extension of inevitable discovery is that once cops have probable cause they can always search and arrest w/o a warrant b/c once they have probable they could have got a warrant. \- re: invetiable discovery, i think the BREWER v WILLIAMS cases are pretty interesting. once of those cases where one of those cases where you couldnt write a better screenplay than the real facts. of ideologues defending against any attempt to change it or make it relevant to today's world. The *first* reaction of the President of the Frickin' United States to a gruesome gun massacre was to reassert the right to bear arms. Somehow I don't think that his first reaction to the most egregious violations related to the first or fourth amendments would be to talk about how important free speech is. (And as for the fourth, we already have plenty of evidence that he doesn't care about it at all). -tom \_ To many, the very fact that the courts have treated the other amendments as fluid is itself a problem that, if necessary, may need to be rectified via the rights protected by the 2d. Some would also suggest that the 1st and 4th both have a large, well-funded group of ide- ologues defending them against any attempt to change them or make them relevant to today's world - namely the ACLU. My concern is merely this - if the 2d can be reevaluated b/c of a changed factual predicate what is to stop similar reevaluation of the other amendments. Even under this administra- tion, the 4th continues to limit executive power. But, the executive continues to insist that these limits are outdated and prevent it from acting in ways that are necessary to protect the people. If we accept the arms controller's arguments, then perhaps we should accept the executive's argument as well. This will leave us subject argument as well. This may leave us subject to invasive government conduct w/ no means of of resistance (however ineffective those means may actually be). \_ There's a process to change the constitution put in place by those same founders. If the 2nd amendment right to bear arms is no longer beneficial to our society then let's drop it from the constitution. Other amendments have come and gone, there is nothing so special about this one it can't be changed through the process provided without resorting to bizarre and unjustifiable misinterpretations of the wording. (No, I'm not saying you're doing that but it is common to say the 2nd doesn't say what it says). \_ Unfortunately, attempts to undo the 2nd amendment would be met with much resistance, and those opposed happen to be the same people who are heavily-armed. \_ You're right, that is a problem. It would be much easier to take away people's civil liberties if they didn't have those pesky guns! \_ Didn't you see the recently released e-mail exchange between Bush and Abu Gonzales? BUSHG: Let's spy on people and read their e-mails so we can win the war on terra! GONZALESA: But the people have guns! BUSHG: Shit, never mind, I forgot! \_ Yes! This is it! What we need is a War on Guns! That'll be right up there with the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, the War on Terrorism, the War on Crime, the War on Smoking, the War on Bad Eating Habits, the War on Drunk Driving, the War on The Growing Digital Divide Between the Rich and the Poor, the and war to end all wars: The War On War Itself! What we need is another War! Woot! \_ Hey, drunk driving is WAY down these days. Yes it is still bad, but it's miles better then it was a generation ago. \_ How are the other 8 or 9 Wars On XYZ going? I suspect Darwin has more to do with any slim decrease in drunk driving deaths than anything else. \_ Drunk driving fatalities have dropped a significant amount, by several thousand deaths a year in the U.S. Smoking is also way down, as are pot and cocaine use among teens. Some of the things you list, such as the War on Terrorism, are foils for political efforts that have nothing to do with their stated goals. And what's your point, anyway...that we shouldn't try to change anything? -tom \_ Since you can't stop him from having a gun, you should let other people have guns. \_ I have this magic wand that will make all guns disappear. Then the same government you trust with your guns will surely stay out of your bedroom, your lifestyle and your wallet. \_ Out of curiosity, how does your right to own a gun prevent the government from intruding into your bedroom, lifestyle, and wallet now? \_ Or to take this thought further: when in the history of the U.S. has private ownership of guns been an effective check on government power? -tom \_ Every day. Look at the British. It could be like that here. \_ Like what? -tom \_ Spying on you everywhere you go for starters. \_ So you think the only thing keeping the U.S. from spying on you everywhere you go is private gun ownership? I'd say the two are completely unrelated. In fact, I think a lot of the gun yahoos are the same guys who want to give the government more power to spy on us. -tom \_ Until the 40s I would say that private ownership of guns had been an effective check on government power. The government hesitates to act against the people, if it believes the people may take to the streets to correct its misdeeds. Since the 40s I would say that if the government decides to truly move against the people, private gun ownership is of no consequence. \_ The government would never move completely against the people anyway. They can usually manipulate and propagandize to get 30-40% of the people to support whatever it is, which is enough to maintain the notion of representative gov't and forestall direct confrontation. At least since the Civil War. (Private ownership of guns didn't stop the feds from pwning the South.) |
| 2007/4/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:46320 Activity:nil |
4/16 For emarkp: Extensive debunking of John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime"
http://timlambert.org/guns/lott
\_ Hi troll! Sign your name. Oh, and just by chance, have you looked
for any response to Lambert, and weighed it against the paper? Or
did you just pick the first reference that fit your agenda? -emarkp
\_ Maybe we should do what Lott did, which was to create multiple
accounts in online forums to invent people to support his
ridiculous position. -tom
\_ More on Lott:
"In his published research analysis, John Lott has
claimed that a 1997 survey he conducted found that
concealed handguns deterred crime without being fired
an astoundingly high 98% of the time. That claim
allowed Lott to explain away the fact that extremely
few self-defense uses of handguns are ever
reported. But when scholars began questioning his
survey results, Lott began a series of evasions that
culminated in the claim that his computer had crashed
and he had "lost" all the data. The University of
Chicago, where Lott claims he conducted the study,
has no record of it being conducted so Lott began
claiming that he funded it himself (and kept no
records) and that he used students to make the survey
calls (though no students have been identified who
participated). Indeed, no records of the survey exist
at all. Lott is now facing serious questions about
whether he fabricated the entire survey - raising
serious questions about his ethics and credibility."
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=lott
\_ Wow, so a political group which opposes gun ownership
disagrees? Stunning. -emarkp
\_ So essentially, any document or study which doesn't
support your position, or comes from a group which
doesn't support your position, is inherently
fraudulent? Your job as a scientist in the Bush
Administration is secure!
\_ Sigh. No, I'm not arguing that. My point is that
rather than simply quoting mindlessly from the
proponent and critics is to read them both or search
for a third party. For instance, the National
Acadamy of Science looked into the issue, and while
they say they can't support the conlusion that "more
guns = less crime" they *can* conclude that "more
guns != more crime". Since I've never read the book,
nor was I claiming it was correct, I really don't
care much, except the "debunking" cited above is from
a "lecturer" of CS (particular graphics--and his Java
applet has bugs) whereas Lott has more experience
with statistics. Michelle Malkin has criticized Lott
as well, even though she agrees with him
ideologically. -emarkp
\_ Does that equal sign mean 'logical implication,'
'algebraic equality' or is it the equal sign they
use in structural equation models? -- ilyas |
| 2007/4/16-18 [Reference/Military] UID:46308 Activity:high |
4/16 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818224/posts freepers unhappy GOP-backed bill defeated - would have allowed those already with a concealed carry permit to bring a firearm to Virginia public universities \_ Which of course might have allowed law-abiding students to kill the shooter before he did so much damage. -emarkp \_ Or shoot someone else trying to shoot the shooter. Or shoot some random person by accident. Or shoot someone 2 weeks from now cause they thought he might be about to shoot someone. Hypotheticals are never as clear cut as you want them to be. \_ That last one is just stupid. \_ I guess. Maybe if law abiding citizens had watched more Steven Siegal movies. \_ What do you mean? Someone who owns a gun and knows how to use it doesn't have to have an action movie choreographer in order to threaten or use force. -emarkp \_ I think he's saying that if they had watched Steven Segal they wouldn't need a gun. \_ I doubt watching SS movies turns people into action heros. \_ Yes, if only everyone on campus were packing, nothing bad would have happened! Because, of course, everyone is well-trained in how to handle firearms, especially when their classroom is unexpectedly turned into a shooting gallery. The idea of concealed-carry permits preventing incidents like this is complete fantasy. -tom \_ So you're a prophet and I'm simply wrong? The shooter was wildly outnumbered by non-shooters, yet there was nothing they could do because no one had a gun to level the playing field. -emarkp \_ I used to hang out with some guys were total gun afficanados. At first it seemed kinda harmless but then I began to realize that most of them dreamed of being in a situation (guy breaking into their home, stopping a rape, whatever) where they could legally blow someone away. Not "I have this for protection" but "I have this cause it would be so cool if I actually got to use it on someone." You know who is the last person I want "defending" me? Some psychopath who just wants to kill someone but has enough sense to wait till it is legal. \_ I bet they didn't say that and you're projecting your own psychoses onto them. \_ No, really there was a significant number of that kept bringing up how they would use x gun in y situation to stop z crime. After hearing that a few times it became really obvious that they had spent way too much time dreaming of exactly when they would get to kill someone in the name of justice. \_ Well, what's wrong with wanting to stop crimes? Were they talking about shooting people who break traffic laws? I bet cops think about these things. Are cops psychos who became cops so they could kill people? \_ The (to be fair few) cops I've known didn't spend hours at a time talking about just how they would go about gunning down someone if x happened. \_ Well the few gun "enthusiasts" or whatever I've known don't do that either. This argument has nowhere to go "I know people who like X and do Y therefore X is bad." \_ You know, I'll bet the 30+ dead people in Virginia wouldn't have minded having a few of these people around. -emarkp \_ You mean at the time he chained the class room doors closed and lined people up to execute them? Nope, no sirree! It would have only added to the chaos and innocent people might have been hurt if they all had guns. \_ As opposed to all of them being shot without defense? How can you claim "it would have only"? One possible outcome is that the execution would have been stopped and fewer people died. -emarkp \_ Assuming that an armed populace would have made things better (an assumption I personally don't believe) do you really think this once every 10-20 years event would make up for the daily statistics as every freak out there goes vigilante? \_ There are already plenty of people who have guns. Why aren't we seeing "every freak out there going viglante" now? -emarkp \_ uh, we are. Look at U.S. murder rates. -tom \_ How many of those are gang related? How many murders are by otherwise law-abiding people suddenly going vigilante versus criminals who can get guns anyway? \_ How does some number of these murders being "gang related" ameliorate the impact on society? \_ Well, at least 33. (For comparison, England and Wales combined had a total of 50 gun homicides last year). -tom \_ Lying with statistics: you're leaving out the murderous Scots. \_ ...who still have half of the murder rate of the U.S. -tom \_ How do you know no one had a gun? -tom \_ Actually, that's a good point. I don't know that. However, guns are explicitly prohibited on campus. I think assuming that no one had a gun is a reasonable assumption under the circumstances. -emarkp \_ OK, I'll also assume that the shooters didn't have guns, then. -tom \_ Oh tom, you're so witty! -tom #1 fan \_ Some assumptions: 1) if it was legal to carry a concealed weapon enough of the students would be carrying at the right place at the right time. 2) If people were armed, instead of a 33 person massacre there wouldn't be 33 more murders spread out over a few years because now everyone is armed when they get angry. \_ If it was legal to carry, still not everyone would carry. People don't kill others just because they get angry. Using a gun on someone is like stabbing them to death with a knife. If you carried a knife around would you use it on people who made you angry? If you are that type of person you will probably wind up dead or in jail regardless of gun laws. \_ I'm pretty sure if the guy at VA Tech had a knife instead of a gun, he wouldn't have killed 31 people. -tom |
| 2007/4/3-6 [Reference/Military] UID:46186 Activity:moderate |
4/3 http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=67166 Security screeners at Denver Int'l miss 90 PERECENT of simulated weapons that undercover agents brought into the airport. \_ They should just have taser guns next to every seat on the plane. The crowd could then overpower any likely number of terrorists. A well armed society is a safe society. \_ My heart tells me you're sarcastic, or trolling, but sadly my head tells me that there are many that really think this way. \_ Why are you sad about people thinking this way? -emarkp \_ The idea that a "tazer on every seat" would promote the general welfare is a sad one. \_ You're repeating yourself. Why is it a sad idea? -emarkp \_ It makes me sad. I don't have to explain myself. Do you think it's a GOOD idea? I wasn't trying to reason about weather arming every passenger to reason about whether arming every passenger on an airplane is a good idea. \_ Of course you don't /have/ to repeat yourself, I was simply asking you to. Just because you feel sad about something doesn't mean the sadness is justified or should have any impact on public discourse. I was just trying to figure out why you're sad. -emarkp \_ That we live in a society where people are sufficiently frightened and alienated from one another that they consider being armed and (likely) a danger to themselves and others a better outcome than the vanishingly small chance that their plane might be highjacked. You don't have to agree with this, of course. Mmmkay? \_ Why do you believe that people who are armed are a danger to themselves and others? -emarkp \_ Jesus fucking christ. Why are either of you taking this "arguement" seriously? A taser next to every seat? Yeah, why not guns on every lamppost, attached to a chain to prevent theft while we're at it? This isn't a debate about an armed society, this is a debate about a cartoon scenario. Allowing individual passengers to carry weapons would be a different thing entireley. \_ Well, see, the tasers next to every seat is well targetted towards a particular situation: overpowering terrorists or other maniacs on a plane. Anyone using the tasers without sufficient reason would be easily identified and tasered themselves. Having guns on every lamppost would not work because a) lampposts are too far apart b) they are deadly c) they would be stolen d) their use could not be easily monitored. A plane flight is a contained environment with identified people. Honestly I did post the idea in jest, but I'm also interested in a serious treatment of it for argument's sake. In an environment where weapons are already introduced I do believe that the "armed society" principle is true. (And every society has weapons, even if it's martial artists or knife users or just large scary men with clubs. \_ So we're, as a nation, up at the top of violent crime rates etc because there... aren't enough weapons. We just haven't reached the critical mass (no pun intended, seriously)? Also, tasers aren't deadly? \_ They are "non lethal". As for crime, I think violent people are violent for reasons mostly unrelated to firearm availability. You can't depend on the police to protect you. Is this sad? Yeah but it's the way of the world. Guns are the most civilized form of combat.) \_ Alright, I'll play along and just attack the most obvious and least potentially controversial aspect. I fly very frequently, and I'd say that about 10% of the time the tray table is somehow broken. This consists of a piece of plastic and a hinge, and it's still not robust enough for the beating stuff takes on an airplane. What exciting failure modes will we find in the hundreds of poorly maintained tasers sitting on a typical plane? How many dumbass passengers will think they're electric shavers and taser themselves in the face? Or get drunk and taser themselves in the ass? Look, I support the right of weapons-owners to own weapons, but I think it's equally important to support the right of non-weapons owners to not own weapons. Me? I train hard in hand to hand combat six days a week and have a knife fighting background, so if I see a terrorist on the plane, I'll leap into the aisle and try to kill him immediately with his own boxcutter. \_ It's the motd. Kick back, laugh, enjoy. This is just a proxy for the standard gun rights non-debate. \_ Statistics. \_ Freedom typically comes with a price. But tell your argument to victims of shootings who could have prevented the shootings with a gun. Look at the statistics that show that when criminals believe the people around them are armed, they're less likely to commit violent crime. -emarkp \_ yeah, if those Critical Mass bicyclists had been armed, the driver would have been less likely to ram into them. They were forced to use their bikes to defend themselves! Guns for all! -tom \_ Actually, it was the cyclists attacking the vehicle. The lesson is, when you go to SF, be sure to be armed. -emarkp \_ Right, I'm sure the cyclists just spontaneously decided to attack. They're like pit bulls that way. -tom \_ From what I read, yes they are. -emarkp \_ from what you read, you mean, the article above where it says the driver ran into a cyclist and then kept trying to drive through the pack? -tom \_ You mean the poor out of town woman surrounded by bikes trying to get away and out of the flow of bikers madly dashing through the city violating every safety and traffic law on the books? Yeah, that one. \_ Poor out of town woman who ran deliberately ran into someone. You forgot the part where she committed assault with a deadly weapon first. \_ not first. surrounded hit her car she moved two get out of their way \_ Horseshit. Critical Mass doesn't hit cars just for existing. -tom \_ Are you gonna pay for the taser training for every "air trafficker" out of your very own pocket? That would be awesome. My sister's been a real bitch lately, and I don't want to accidentally kill her. \_ please. don't bring facts into this.. let the sheeple liberals bend over and take it up the u know what.. they enjoy it anyway \_ What an insightful comment. |
| 2007/3/27-29 [Reference/Law/Court, Reference/Military] UID:46107 Activity:kinda low |
3/26 "I support the First Amendment right to carry and bear arms," - Rudy
Giuliani, on Sean Hannity's radio show.
\_ Are there any other ultra-dense cities in the world
where it is legal to carry guns?
\_ Maybe he's trying to make the point that the pen is mightier than
the sword!
\_ only if said pen is stuck into the neck
\- how would you like a pencil in your neck?
get off bob dole's lawn.
--bdole
\_ ???
\_ Thus far, the D.C. Cir. has little company in its holding that
the 2d enumerates two rights, one for the states re militias,
and one for the people. But no court has held that this this
personal right is incorporated against the states.
Maybe "Rudy" thinks the personal right would get more mileage
in the courts if one were to claim that it was based on
associational freedoms, "free exercise" rights (particularly
if one was a sikh) or "expressive" political speech rights,
all of which receive strict scrutiny and are incorporated
against the states via the 14th.
Or he just misspoke 1st for 2d.
\_ "Rudy" misspoke? Anyway.... If the USSC rules that the 2nd
does mean 'personal right' to carry a weapon, will you accept
that or come back and complain that BUSH's court has destroyed
the USC?
\_ If my comments conveyed the message that I believe the D.C.
Cir. incorrectly decided that the 2d enumerates a personal
right and a state right, I apologize. I think that the D.C.
Cir. correctly decided that the 2d enumerates a personal
right.
I would completely support a USSC decision finding that
(1) the 2d enumerates a personal right; and
(2) this right was incorporated against the states via
the 14th.
Finding a personal right w/o incorporation is, in my view,
insufficient b/c the states would remain free to regulate
arms. Since the 7th's jury trial in civil cases hasn't been
incorporated, conceivably the 2d's personal right may not be
either.
\_ Thanks for clarifying. |
| 2007/3/5-7 [Reference/Military] UID:45882 Activity:nil 66%like:45878 |
3/5 UK's Jedi's oppose sword ban:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/05/jedi_speak_out_on_uk_sword_law
\_ Maybe we can get them an exemption for religious purposes.
\_ let the brits beat each other up with their fists like
civilized folks
\_ "We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike.
No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone." |
| 2007/3/5 [Reference/Military] UID:45878 Activity:nil 66%like:45882 |
3/5 UK's Jedi's oppose ban on carrying imitation samurai swords:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/05/jedi_speak_out_on_uk_sword_law |
| 2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45588 Activity:nil 100%like:45581 100%like:45586 100%like:45587 |
1/16 Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycjs7h (tv3.co.nz)
[ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ] |
| 2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45587 Activity:nil 100%like:45588 |
1/16 Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycjs7h (tv3.co.nz)
[ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ] |
| 2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45586 Activity:nil 100%like:45588 |
1/16 Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycjs7h (tv3.co.nz)
[ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ] |
| 2007/1/25 [Reference/Military] UID:45581 Activity:nil 100%like:45552 100%like:45588 |
1/16 Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycjs7h (tv3.co.nz)
[ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ] |
| 2007/1/16-25 [Reference/Military] UID:45552 Activity:nil 100%like:45581 |
1/16 Man w/ samurai sword comes to aid of cops in UK:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycjs7h (tv3.co.nz)
[ May it be Duncan MacLeod, The Highlander. ] |
| 2006/12/18-21 [Reference/Military] UID:45462 Activity:low |
12/17 Hey, no problem with registering your guns. Unless of course a paper
happens to publish the list.
http://csua.org/u/hqs
\_ A newspaper gathered and printed public info and you're upset? |
| 2006/11/4-5 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45162 Activity:kinda low |
11/03 I overheard this quote from NPR which I thought is amusing:
"'Terror' is a tactic. To say today's war is a war on 'Terror'
is just like saying World War 2 is a war on 'Blitzkrieg.'"
\_ Sounds pretty logical to me.
\_ The US should stick with wars that have a definite
win condition. You can't win a war against a non proper noun. |
| 2006/11/3-4 [Reference/Military] UID:45124 Activity:moderate |
11/2 Do modern fighter jets still have machine guns, or are they
mounted with missiles exclusively?
\_ true dogfighting requires canons
\_ true dogfighting requires cannons
\_ Why don't jet fighers have rear-facing machine guns? I think
it's useful for deterring the other guy from trying to shoot you
with their machine gun from your back. The apparent range of a
rear-facing gun should be longer than a forward-facing one,
because the air speed, hence air resistance, for the bullets is
lower.
\_ Guessing: targetting would be too difficult because the odds
of your enemy coming in straight behind you are very low
compared to your odds of lining him up in front. For that
tiny chance of a rear-facing kill you'd have to carry extra
weight, extra targeting equipment for rear-firing, etc, etc.
The big WWII bombers had room for all that but fighters, both
old and new, both jet and props are a different animal.
\_ On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the Russians played
around with rear-firing missiles.
\_ I think ever since Vietnam, when our F4's would run out
of missiles and then have no armament for shooting down
even more MIGs, all US jets have had cannons.
\_ M61A1/A2 Vulcan machine gun. NOT a cannon. Russians use cannons.
While a high-rate of fire, there is limited number of rounds
that can be carried before dry.
\_ What's the difference between machine gun and cannon? It's just
bigger bullets and smaller bullets, right?
\_ MG: Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat! Or in a modern super high rate of
fire MG: brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Cannon: thump! thump! thump!
\_ This may be the single best post on today's motd.
\_ Yup. Much more descriptive than rounds-per-second
numbers. :-) -- !PP
\_ I see. |
| 2006/10/20-23 [Reference/Military] UID:44885 Activity:nil |
10/20 http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday Army Ranger Kevin Tillman (discharged '05), brother of Pat Tillman, both of whom signed up because of 9/11, writes about Pat's b-day. \_ another Democratic conspiracy ! \_ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1723098/posts \_ This thread has been pulled. Anyone archived it? \_ there wasn't much anyway. threads like this don't generate many freeper posts. \_ It has been censored. |
| 5/17 |