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2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    

2008/10/21-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:51596 Activity:nil
10/21   ok, how Taiwan going to protrait itself as a victim and cry faul
        this time:
        http://csua.org/u/mpw
        \_ The protesters will claim that they were protecting their country
           from sell-outs like Ma; Ma will claim that they're nutjobs.
           *shrug* How is this any different than PRC's reaction to Chinese
           civilian attacks on US consulates?
2007/10/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:48282 Activity:nil
10/10   Happy Double Ten Day. Go Taiwan! Sing along our national songs
        ~Go Freedom, ~Defeat communists, ~Take back our Mainland!
        \_ Double Tenth.
        \_ ?
        \_ Taiwan?  Hello!  It is a celebration of overthrown of 4700 years
           of imperial rule and establishment of the first democratic republic
           in entire Asia.  If you can actually read Chinese, I suggest you
           do some reading on Dr. Sun's writing.
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    

2006/9/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:44461 Activity:kinda low
9/20    Here is something that puzzles me.  I think it's yesterday that
        there was a protest of roughly ten thousands of people in Hunguary
        protesting their president.  This news showd up in most of the major
        US media.
        But just about a week ago, there were about 350,000 people protesting
        in Taiwan against their president. Yet this event was not covered
        by major US media at all.
        My question of the day is, why?  protest in Taiwan is about 30 times
        larger than Hunguary.  Economically and stragetically, neither Hunguary
        nor Taiwan is more significant than another.  But why such bias in
        coverage?  Is this a racial thing?  is this an attempt to play down
        the dissatisfaction Taiwan people against their president to fit US
        interest?  what do you guys think?
        \_ Actually, I'm more surprised that a 10,000 person protest in
           Hungary got covered at all.  It's probably just a blip.  Maybe
           the Hungary protest was on a slow news day, or there happened
           to be a stringer there and not at the one in Taiwan.  This sort
           of irregularity is normal in the news, nobody's perfect.
        \_ Quite often I hear about a certain event on KCBS AM 740 radio, and
           \_ It was the circumstances that prompted the Hungarian protest
              that were newsworthy. From the BBC:
              "The latest protests were sparked by Mr Gyurcsany's remarkable
               admission that his government had lied in order to win victory
               in the general election in April, and had achieved nothing in
               its past four years in office."
              http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5363138.stm
              Also, they're burning things in Hungary. They marched loudly but
              mostly peacefully in Taiwan.
        \_ Sometimes I hear about a certain event on KCBS AM 740 radio, and
           then the same event doesn't appear on Yahoo! front page until
           three or four days later.  Sometimes it's the other way round.  The
           most recent example I remember is some announcement about the SF
           hydro-electric project.
           three or four days later.  Sometimes it's the other way round.
        \_ What else was going on a week ago?  I think this stuff only surfaces
           on 'slow news days'
        \_ Of course it is biased. I didn't even know about the
           protest until you mentioned it. You'll bet your ass that if
           there is a 100 person protest in China, it'll be covered in
           every front page of every major US media. You must realize,
           that one dissident in China who got sent to prison is more
           important for the average US citizen to know than the 350k
           people protest in the "Democratic Paradise Society of
           Taiwan".
        \_ I think one reason is that the protests in Taiwan are anti-Chen
           protests which are unlikely to spark conflicts between Mainland
           China and Taiwan.  On the other hand, if they were pro-Chen
           protests, they were more likely to spark conflicts and would get
           more US mainstream media coverage.  Protests like these, whether
           anti-Chen or pro-Chen, gets the same top-story coverage in Chinese
           media like Chinese newscast on Ch26.
           \_ I am talking about mainstream media such as CNN, etc.
2006/8/28-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:44178 Activity:high
8/28    This is not a troll. Do Taiwanese girls, that is those who actually
        grew up in Taiwan, usually tend to be self-righteous,
        incredibly stubborn, and frighteningly materialistic control
        freaks, or is it just the girl I happened to run into? It
        seems like she just keeps arguing only for the sake of it,
        however irrational she may sound at the moment (sometimes she
        regrets that, but then it's already too late).
        \_ tawei is that you?
        \_ Hello nickkral!
        \_ Yes, Taiwanese girls are fucked up.  I went to high school with
           tons of them in the San Gabriel Valley before going to school with
           tons of them again at Cal, so I know that they are flat-chested,
           dirty, bossy, stupid, lying, conniving bitches.  To be fair,
           Taiwanese guys are also dandruff-infested, dirty, bossy, stupid,
           lying, conniving scumbags.  My opinions are borne from years of
           experience watching them cheat in school, refuse to take showers in
           P.E. or wear deodorant, argue endlessly about incredibly boring
           and geeky topics like China-Taiwan politics or Final Fantasy games,
           hold stupid bigoted opinions about other people from other parts
           of the world, steal money from the government and cheat their own
           employees, and generally engage in dirtbag behavior.  None of those
           Taiwanese pussies can drink even a tiny bit of alcohol without
           turning bright scarlet red from head to toe.  They also suck at
           driving and never take personal responsibility for the messes that
           they create (especially car accidents, illegal immigration, tax
           fraud, enormous unpaid gamblings debts, and sexually transmitted
           diseases).  Taiwanese, especially the girls, have no sense of
           style, as they were these gaudly, tacky, ugly clothes that
           combine great color schemes of bright red, shit yellow, and
           black sequins.  Nothing says "class" like heinous dressing and
           zero fashion sense.  Even the Taiwanese "models" in their pitiful
           pop magazines are heinous.
           What do you expect from a country that consists of all the scumbags
           in old China who raped, destroyed, and exploited their own kind?
           So much that the Chinese majority wanted these landowning
           degenerate scum to be killed...except that they escaped with Chiang
           Kai-Shek to Taiwan.  Taiwanese in California in the last 20 years
           are just like the old Cuban undesirables of Scarface notoriety were
           in Miami in the 70s and early 80s:  the worst, most materialistic,
           most amoral segments of a Communist regime that got evicted by their
           own government.  Very clannish, insular people with idiotic
           political views.  Only difference is that Taiwanese chicks are
           overall extremely butt-ugly in comparison to smoking hot Cuban
           women.  Shout out to Jenny Wu, Amy Wan, and Cathy Cheng from high
           school.  -not a Taiwanese or Chinese
           \_ Kind of funny but needs a bit of work. I would give it a grade
              of "work in progress." Post again when you're done with the
              rough draft.
           \_ Wow, that was impressive. Articulate and impassioned.
              *polite applause*  What about the religious ones?
              \_ I just found it hateful and lengthy.
              \_ Started okay but got too bitter and hateful towards the end.
                 I also agree it's too long, try to trim it down a bit.
                 \_ Since when was "length" a bad thing?  -Dirk Diggler
        \_ You're not alone:
           http://csua.com/?entry=42532
           http://csua.com/?entry=39422 (2nd reply)
        \_ This word you keep using(troll)--I do not think it means what you
           think it means...
        \_ Girls are people.  You'll find angels and gold-diggers and the
           down-to-earth.  But it is definitely a well known phenomenon among
           young adults in Taiwan about Taiwanese girls hooking up with a
           lonely 30-something engineer who never had a girlfriend, works
           long hours, is faithful, and brings home the $$$.  It is also
           assumed that Asian guys raised in Asia are chauvinistic, and
           parachute kids in the U.S. are spoiled players.  Therefore,
           Taiwanese/Asian girls raised in Asia may have a chip on their
           shoulder when it comes to Asian guys.  This post might be a troll.
        \_ Taiwanese girls are generally racist against those from mainland
           or anything related to China.  Aside from that, they are pretty
           much the same as everyone else.
           \_ I don't think that counts as racist.  Taiwanese and Chinese
              being the same race and all.
              \_ it is racism.  Like everywhere else, "race" has less to do
                 with color of skin and DNA make up.  Just like everything
                 else, race is arbitrarily defined (go find out the definition
                 of "colored people" in America and South Africa).
                 I hope those American who supports Taiwan realize that they
                 are supporting a regime whose power is based upon
                 instutitonalized racial discrimination and flaming ethnic
                 tensions.
                        born in Taiwan, work in Taiwan, classified as
                        a Chinese Pig in Taiwan
                \_ This seems true, but I have known well only one Taiwanese
                   girl, so my sample is very small. It happened several times,
                   that as soon as I mentioned the words China or Chinese in
                   any context that had to with the mainland, however
                   unoffending the topic could be (like movies or food), she
                   would immediately interrupt me and say something negative
                   about what she thought I was about to say without even
                   letting me finish that sentence. Her attitude towards the
                   mainland could be best described as snobbish. -white guy who
                   already got burned by it. never again.
                   \_ So are you going back to blondes again?
                   \- if you cant think of a way to yank the chain of
                      an anti-mainland taiwanista, you are really lacking
                      in imagination.
                      \_ This is like doubling-up on a lost bet, until you
                         break even. Unless you're willing to make her cry or
                         and/or walk away from her, she'll make you pay.
                         break even. Unless you're willing to walk away from
                         her, she'll make you pay.
        \_ I thought Hong Kong girls are the ones that are self-righteous,
           incredibly stubborn, and frighteningly materialistic control freaks,
           not Taiwan ones.  --- guy from Hong Kong
           \_ Never dated a HK girl but I can tell you Taiwanese girls
              are really bad. I wouldn't be surprised if Taiwnese girls
              are worse than HK girls. Frankly I don't understand why
              some white men have Asian fetish.    -- guy from Taiwan
              \_ And the better alternative to Asian women is... blond
                 bimbos with big breasts?
                 \_ Uh, as opposed to flat-chested, flat-assed, stupid,
                    annoying, bossy, shallow, loud-mouthed bitches from Taiwan
                    who have poor personal hygiene?  Hell, yes, give me
                    Victoria Silvstedt, Lisa Dergan, Rachel Hunter, Molly
                    Sims, Shakira, or Stacy Keibler any day of the damn
                    week.  -not a Taiwanese or Chinese
              \_ Racist. Why do you hate Taiwanese girls?
                 \_ I only hate the ones who don't want to fuck me.
              \_ see, chauvinist!
           \_ Can't they both be?
           \_ As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again!
2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:44006 Activity:nil
8/14    Is there any racial issue within the Hispanic group?  E.g. do the
        Hispanic blacks and Hispanic whites consider themselves different, just
        like the English-speaking blacks and whites?
        \_ Yes.  Lighter people always look down upon the darker, lower class
           people.  -albino
        \_ There are many places where "Indios" are not allowed.  They will
           tell you "It's not racism", but it is.
           \_ http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=indio,+ca
        \_ Ever notice that everyone on Mexican TV is white?
           \_ I don't watch Mexican TV, sorry.
           \_ I'm on the Mexican radio...
        \_ Yes, there are. Not just skin color either.
        \_ Read Octavio Paz's collection of essays, Labyrinth of Solitude.
           Much good information here concerning Mexico's struggle with its
           own history as a former colony and the legacy of race.
        \_ I don't know of any large group of people that doesn't teach or
           encourage ethnic superiority. Just look at China, Hong Kong,
           Taiwan, Malasia, Singapore. For example certain types of Taiwanese
           people are taught or hinted to be superior over other types of
           Taiwanese. Certainly, the division is even sharper amongst the
           different Chinese ethnicities in the pacific. Heck, even left
           liberals think they're superior over the country music beer
           drinking gun toting right wing neocon nuts, and vise versa.
           I think it is just a nature of human beings to discriminate and
           hate one another.
           \_ That's why the Cylons hate us.
           \_ I don't watch Mexican TV, sorry.
           \_ I'm on the Mexican radio...
              \_ We must resolve to better understand our Cyclons brothers so
                 we can have a mutually beneficial discussion of our
                 differences and through our diversity of opinion thereby
                 grow stronger for it.  Call back the fighters and power down
                 the cannons so they understand we're not a threat so we can
                 have peaceful dialog.  We must have done something to them
                 for them to hate us so.  I feel so guilty about my ancestor's
                 cruelty to the oppressed Cylon peoples!  We must make amends!
2006/8/1-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:43858 Activity:nil
8/1     Does anyone know if foreign Mandarin accents irritate Mainland Chinese
        as much as Beijing Chinese accent irritates say, the Taiwanese? In
        another word do Mainlander discriminate as much as the non-Mainlanders
        based on non-local Mandarin accents?
        \_ The answer is "No" with almost absolute certainty for several
           reason.  While Beijing is more or less being the capital for
           past 800 years, Chinese government traditionally ran by Mandarins
           selected by sheer examination scores.  This means government
           up to cabinent members can came from anywhere.  As result, there
           is little geographical sense of superority.  The situation changed
           somewhat during Manchu Dynasty, mostly due to ethnic tensions
           between royal desent (Manchus) and Hans who made up majority of
           government body.  The funny things is, those royal family based
           their pride on proper Mandarin (specifically, "inner city" Beijing
           accent, oppose to "outter city" and "outside of city"), instead of
           Manchurian, a native Manchu tongue which almost no one speaks.
           Fastforward to today,like any other metropolitans,bulk of Beijing's
           14 million resident came from outside of the city.  Consider that
           China has several thousands of dialects, most people don't hold
           anything agaist you if you speak with an accent.
        \_ Short answer: No.  While Beijing has been the capital of China for
           more or less 800 years, majority of government officials, e.g.
           Mandarins were selected by examination, thus, no particular
           geographical ties.  Today's Bejing, just like rest of major
           Metropolitians, more people are from outside of Beijing than
           the true native.   While people do praise those who speak
           with proper accent, very few, if any, are being discriminated
           because of his/her accent, as there are at least 1.2 billion people
           speak Mandarin with some sort of accent.  -kngharv
        \_ I don't know about accents, but my wife served as a tour guide
           at the Salt Lake Temple Square, and generally the Taiwanese
           tour guides did not give tours to the mainland Chinese.  She
           wasn't quite sure why, but it seemed to have to do with
           tensions over Taiwanese independence. -jrleek
           \_ jrleek.  The root cause of this tension is because
              pro-independent Taiwanese plays racial politics.  Race, by
              their definition, is based upon where one's parents were born.
              As result, myself, born in Taiwan and currently working in
              Taiwan, is considered as "Chinese Pig" by those Taiwanese.
              (by the way, "Chinese Pig" was the exact term they use.)
              Right now, Taiwan's democracy is completely engulfed by racial
              politics that anything deemd "Native" (i.e. those people who
              came to Taiwan prior to First Sino-Japanese War in 1845) is
              justified.   Politicians are judged based upon his blood line,
              not by how well he/she has been ruled.    kngharv
              not by how well he/she has ruled.         kngharv
           \_ It is true. The Taiwanese people resent the Mainlanders
              and their government. I'm wondering if the reverse is
              also true. Do Mainlanders hate the Taiwanese?  -taiwanese
                   \- there are some pretty crazy shenannigans between
                      china and taiwan. do you know about the crazy panda
                      diplomacy trick? i understand there is some either
                      pro-chinese or pro-taiwanese radio talk show in LA
                      and people get so worked up when calling from cell
                      phones in cars, they get into accidents. china also
                      does some wealsey things like objecting to a USA visa
                      for taiwanese officials truing to come to things like
                      college reunions.
                \_ We should bomb Taiwan.  Why the hell does this
                   tiny country even exist? -proud American
                   \_ To provide us with motherboards, DUH!
                \_ You misunderstand.  The tour guides didn't have the
                   problem, the guests did.  In otherwords, from this one
                   data point it seems like mainlanders might have a
                   problem with the Taiwanese.  One third hand data point
                   ain't much though. -jrleek
                   \_ nope, jrleek, that is not correct.  People from mainland
                      tend to have problem with people from Hong Kong for one
                      reason or another, such resentment toward people from
                      Taiwan virtually non-existent.   Majority of problem
                      lies upon Taiwan side.  -kngharv
        \_ I don't know Chineese, but I do know people, so I can pretty
           confidently say, "Yes." Yankees hate southern accents.
           Swiss hate Austrian accents. Sri Lankans hate Indian Tamil
           accents. Limeys hate Gringo accents. People everywhere are
           convinced that their way of speaking a language is the one true
           way and everyone else is wrong. So it goes.
           \_ That's not always true.  Some accents get classified as "sexy"
              or "sophisticated", along with associated stereotypes(I'm talking
              about English here).
           \_ Southern accents are great.  Northern ones are ugly.  -Yankee
              \_ You guys are right. The corollary is that people
                 everywhere hate their own accent and like other accents.
           \_ I don't know man. I use to dislike Cantonese (and I am a
              Mandarin speaker), but there was this cute sexy girl who
              I swear speaks the most sexy sounding Cantonese I've
              ever heard. After that, I don't find Cantonese so
              offensive sounding. ;)
2006/6/22-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:43460 Activity:nil
6/22    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060622/cm_csm/yhsiang
        Democracy also means lots of corruption.
        \_ Hi troll.  Democracy doesn't cause corruption.  Democracy makes it
           more likely corruption will be publicly revealed and stopped.
        \_ Yes, the glorious PRC is completely free of all governmental
           corruption!... and athlete's foot.  All Hail ChiCom!
           \_ I thought the only way you could get anything done in China,
              period, is to either grease gov't palms or have relatives
              \_ I think the period goes at the end, but YMMV.
              in positions of power.  Is this not true?
              \_ majority of the country works like that, son.  There are
                 about 110+ countries outside the G8.
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Reference/Religion] UID:42532 Activity:high
3/30    Southern Taiwanese girls are among the most self absorbed and
        money loving people I've ever met. Every time they talk, it's about
        themselves, or about money, or how they want <stick in whatever
        materialistic thing here>. The word charity is completely
        foreign to them. Anyone have similar experiences with other girls?
        \_ When you marry a S Taiwanese woman, you marry her entire family.
           You better like Oh-Ah-Jian (oyster pancake) and the food they
           eat. You better like her parents. You better like the mainland
           China bashing shows they watch and their Fox News equivalence
           (Taiwan Independence Newspaper). You'll have to live in closed
           quarters with her inlaws for an extended amount of time and cook &
           eat together. You should at minimum drive a 3 year old Lexus or
           better. The exception to this is if you're a doctor, then she'll
           do anything for you till you get married because the culture
           believes doctors are bigger than God or the President. After you
           believes doctors are bigger than Yahweh or the President. After you
           get married though, "all your bases belong to her". By that I mean
           your income, car, house, and the way you're suppose to think.
           \_ Move to some non-community property state.  Then it is just a
              personal backbone issue, not a legal issue enforced by law.
           \_ this is so funny... and has a lot of truth in it.
        \_ How is this different from libertarian geek guys whose only
           interest is consumer electronics?
           \_ Hey! Some of us give money to soda and public tv!
        \_ I am not found of Taiwanese girls in general, but your statement
                    \_ fond
           of "self absorbed and money loving people" applies to A LOT of
           people, men or women, regardless of color of skin!
        \_ There are some Taiwan girls on soda who are the exact opposite
            you describe. It is just like the other person said: stereotypes
            /generalizations are a very bad road to go down.

        \_ My gf is from Chiayi, and she ain't bad.  We are Christians
           so she gives 10% to church.  She is generous to others, but
           too thrifty herself (not as fun in terms of enjoying life).
           She says Taiwanese show their love using money, so there
           may be some truth in what you are saying.
           \_ Interesting. So what do YOU think? Or does she think for you?
              \_ She tried, but I ain't no pushover.
              \_ She tried, but I ain't no pushover.  What do I think
                 about Southern Taiwanese girls in general?  I don't
                 know enough of them to conclude.  I have quite a few
                 cousinettes spread over the island, but I haven't spent
                 much time there so I don't know them well.  I do know
                 Southern Taiwanese guys don't do much housework, the prime
                 example being my dad, but then, maybe that's because
                 he's the only boy in his family and he had 5 sisters.
           \_ i love this logic: she is a Christians and give money
              to church she attends to, which makes her a much superior
              human being.
              \_ I am just responding to "The word charity is completely
                 foreign to them".  Why is it that I can't mention
                 Christianity without being attacked?
           \_ If you were _good_ Christians you'd give everything away... but
              I guess that's a part of the Bible it's no fun to follow.
              \_ Commandments to specific people may not be applicable in the
                 general case.
                 \_ especially when it's inconvenient.  -tom
                 \_ especially when they're inconvenient.  -tom
              \_ I am not a good Christian.  Giving has little to do
              \_ Giving has little to do
                 with "fun to follow" or not, and more to do with your
                 faith in the Lord, and the Lord's calling.  Are
                 Christians required to give away everything.  No.  Do
                 some Christians give away everything?  Yes.  Giving
                 should also be joyous!
                 \_ You say that as if it's clearly stated thus in the Bible.
                    It's not.  It's _your_ clear understanding of a book that
                    can (and is) interpreted absolutely any way people want.
                    I can extol the virtues incest, slavery, rape, revenge,
                    misogyny, just about any horrid thing you like using only
                    actions that are endorsed by God at some point in the Bible.
                    You might as well use the dictionary as your holy book.
                    actions that are endorsed by God at some point in the
                    Bible. You might as well use the dictionary as your holy
                    book.
                    \_ You are right that people can interpret things in
                       different ways, but that doesn't mean some of them
                       are not wrong.  Even in the bible itself,
                       you have Satan and the Pharisees interpreting the bible
                       one way, and Jesus "interpreting" it a different way.
                       \_ But we can't know which interpretation is right.
                          It is basically useless. It's one thing to have
                          Yahweh/Yashua him/themselves clarifying stuff
                          (albeit in a cryptic, impatient, and irritated
                          fashion... what is up with that anyway, it's
                          his/their own damn fault people get it wrong)
                          or to have the literal voice of God or supposed
                          deputies (why do the old testament people blindly
                          accept that some being is an "angel of the Lord"
                          anyway? It's not like they have any kind of
                          authentication or digital signing of divine
                          communications). But no, in all of modern times
                          these fantastical communications, on which all
                          of the religion is ultimately supposed to have
                          been founded, are completely absent. Basically
                          if Yahweh gave a shit what you think he'd say
                          something. If Yahweh existed he would say something,
                          according to the character laid out in the Bible
                          itself. Reality does not bear it out.
        \_ In what context are you meeting them? What's their socio-
           economic background? Are they recent immigrants or 2nd or 3rd
           gen Americans? Also, what's your sample size? Anecdotes are
           amusing but statistically irrelevant.
           \_ in the context of being one and being with them for many
              decades, and the sample size is slightly less than 100
              \_ You're a Southern Taiwanese girl? Are you as materialistic
                 as you make them out to be?
                        \_ I wonder what his opinion of Northern ones are.

        \_ post pics please!
2006/1/30-2/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:41598 Activity:nil
1/30    Is there a standards association in Taiwan that's similar to ANSI, JSA
        and ISO?  I'm trying to look up some standards.  Thanks.
        \_ After China globalizes and dominates all the markets that Taiwan
           used to dominate (motherboard, cheap goods, etc), Taiwan the
           island will be completely irrelevant and the US government will
           no longer give a damn about Taiwan.
           \_ I agree, but right now I'm just trying to look up the official
              dimensions of the paper sizes 8K and 16K.  Supposedly these are
              Taiwan paper sizes.  I think they are also called 8-Kai and
              16-Kai, but I'm not sure.  -- OP
        \_ Taiwan mosly use US standards. For size of paper, they use
           (I think) European standard.  A3, A4, B3, B4, etc.  the old standard
           has became irrelevant due to the fact that most of the paper making
           machinaries are imported from abroad.
           \_ So are 8K and 16K really Taiwan standards?  I'm not even sure.
              Thx.  -- OP
              \_ It's a Chinese expression.  The original definition of 8-kai
                 means a piece of paper is being cutted into eight pieces,
                 hence, bigger than a paper which is being cutted into 16
                 pieces (16-kai).  Once upon a time there was a standard on
                 how big a sheet (1-kai) paper is.  I am not sure how relevant
                 it is now.
2006/1/20-23 [Reference/Languages, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:41462 Activity:kinda low
1/20    http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/taiwanese/index.php
        Really good Min-nan Taiwanese lessons. It's really sad that
        pronunciation formalization is done by a whitie instead of
        a native Min-nan speaker. Do Min-nan natives even care that
        their language is dying? Why don't they write something
        about themselves?
        \_ You could say the same thing about a lot of People today and in
           the past.  Not everyone is that stuck on the academic concept of
           "preserving culture" like a rare plant or animal.  Cultures rise,
           cultures change, cultures die.  In this case maybe they don't see
           themselves as "Min-nan" in the way you do or simply have better
           things to do.
           \_ Every time a language dies the number of people in the world who
              can talk to eachother goes up.
              \_ Ok by me.
        \_ First of all, Ming-nan != Taiwanese.  It literally means
           "South of Fujian (province)." Secondly, Fujian as a province has
           about 18 different dialects,  the one spoken in Taiwan is mostly
           dervied from dialects of Xiamen city.  Third, much of so called
           Ming-nan education was part of "Taiwanese identity" and
           "de-sinofication" political movement.  Those who are in charge,
           strangely enough, cares *MORE* about the "de-sinofication" aspect
           than "preserve Ming-nan" culture.  Much effort was wasted on things
           like "how to use Latin characters / Japanese characters to denote
           Ming-nan dialect writing."  Like all political movement, it comes
           and goes.  Since the unemployement is at 20 year high and economy
           is growing at slowest pace in 40 years, identity has become
           a less of a hot topic.
           Lastly, don't worry about the fact that Ming-nan dialect is going
           to die.  It won't.  Look and everywhere in mainland China,
           dialects will be there forever, dispite that no dialect is being
           taught in school.                    kngharv
2006/1/12-17 [Science/Biology, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:41358 Activity:nil
1/12    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060112/sc_nm/taiwan_pig_dc
        I am all in favor of genetic research, but this just seems
        wrong to me.
        \_  Mmmm... How long till I can get some green bacon?
            \_ I will not eat green eggs and ham.
            \_ Looks like sales of glowing condoms will drop in the future.
2006/1/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:41336 Activity:nil
1/10    http://tinyurl.com/ah5ns
        I can read Chinese pretty well but my Taiwanese sucks. Is there
        a place like Babelfish that can translate Chinese written in
        Taiwanese tones into standard Chinese? Secondly is there a
        place that gives you proper Taiwanese pronunciation? Thanks.
        \_ what I would like is a dictionary that can map from Chinese
           characters to the different dialects (Guowu, Ping, Yue, Min,
           Hakka, etc). It's pretty irritating reading HK news papers
           especially when they "overload" words with Cantonese sounding
           Zhongwen that makes absolutely no sense to Mandarin speakers.
           Speaking of Zhongwen, which dialect was it developed with?
        \_ for Question 1, no.  For second question, there is a romanized
           pronouciation symbols invented by early missionaries for
           the MingNan dialect.  and in Taiwan, there are dictionaries which
           you can buy.  But i don't know details.  Mind you, much of these
           "Taiwanese" characters are only invented recently as part of
           "De-Sinofication" cultual movement.  Most people in Taiwan
           doesn't know themselves.  You will be better off to find a
           dictionary which uses the MingNan romanized pronouciation symbols.
           \_ one thing that makes me really sad is that Taiwanese people
              try to promote independence and their culture yet after all
              these years they can't even get their acts together to put up
              good Taiwanese classroom materials. There are tons of stuff
              using standardized Jo1Ying1Fu2Hou4 or Romanization for people
              to learn yet almost nothing on Minnan languages. Even the
              De-Cal Taiwanese class is pretty primitive compared to
              the materials that exist for learning Mandarin.
              \_ may be this entire idea of promoting MingNan (literally means
                 South of FuJian province) dialect is a silly idea.  and no,
                 there is no such thing as "Taiwanese."
2005/12/22-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Finance/Investment] UID:41121 Activity:kinda low
12/22   Hi guys, I'm going to be visiting Taiwan next week.  What's the best
        way to exchange USD for Taiwan dollars?  My guess is to buy AmEx
        travelers checks (as an AmEx cardholder) in cash at an AmEx office, and
        exchange the checks for NT$ at an AmEx office (for free) in Taiwan.
        Is changing U.S. dollars in cash at the CKS airport for NT$ that much
        worse?  Thanks.
        \_ before you leave airport, use your ATM card and withdraw local
           currency.  I do this all the time everywhere I go.
        \_ AAA sells travellers' checks to members without fees.
           \_ Yeah, I was looking at that.  I even have a AAA-branded credit
              card I can charge it to (no cash advance fee for travellers
              checks).  I'm just wondering what the fee is to cash them at
              CKS airport I guess.  My friend from Taiwan also says, "People
              in Taiwan only know AmEx travellers checks", although the bank
              and airport booth people probably know know Visa checks.
              You buy Visa checks at AAA offices I believe.
              \_ Are you sure AAA sells Visa checks?  I remember last
                 time I bought traveler's check at AAA it was AmEx.  This
                 was about 2 years ago, so things may have changed.  As
                 changing money at CKS, I did it last time I was there.
                 However, I don't remember what rate "premium/fee" was.
                 \_ Not sure, but they only mention the Visa stuff on AAA web
                    pages now.  The AmEx web page still mentions AAA though.
        \_ This is true for Europe; that ATMs are usually your best deal in
           terms of exchange rates. I tend to stay awake from Trav Chqs or
           money changers.  See if your ATM card has a Visa/Mastercard logo on
           it, and you would only be charged the standard 1% foreign
           transaction fee. Most ATMs in Europe and Singapore (don't know
           about Taiwan) do not charge cash advance fee like in the U.S., so
           you would only pay your home bank for doing business with other
           ATMs. And if you carry certain balance with your bank (Citibank
           comes to mind), they waive all ATM fees when you use other bank's
           ATMs. If you bank with BofA, for example, they have affiliate banks
           worldwide so that you won't get charged. Ask them for a list.
           \_ If you do decide to go with the ATM route, make sure the ATMs
              at your destination will accept your PIN. The last time I
              travelled internationally, I found that a lot of ATMs,
              particularly in airports, would only work with 4-digit PINs.
              It took me a while to find a bank whose ATMs would work with
              my longer PIN. -gm
                \_ Oh, also remmeber a lot of non-US ATMs do not have alphas
                   on it, so if you're used to memorizing 4-alpha, get used
                   to memorizing the digits instead.
2005/12/18-20 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:41063 Activity:high
12/16   http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/lang/taiwanese/s1.htm
        I'm looking for full versions of the traditional Taiwanese
        songs like the ones above. Where can I find them?
        \_ There are lots of free Minan songs from mainland China here,
           so you'll see simplified characters:
           http://www.buxiao.com/10.htm
           http://www.buxiao.com/Person/2124.htm (children's songs)
           By the way why do people say Taiwanese when it didn't
           originate from Taiwan?
           \_ related question, how come some of the old Taiwanese songs
              sound just like Japanese songs?
              \_ because pro-independent minded Taiwanese for some reason
                 admires Japan and missed the day of brutal Japanese
                 occupations.
              \_ because taiwan had been a japanese colony, and many older
                 taiwanese were japanese educated.
                 \_ there is more than that.  A lot of my friends' parents
                    grand parents were Japanese educated too in Manchuria
                    but they *HATE* Japanese to a point that they don't mind
                    to start another war to settle the old score.
                    \_ Manchuria was different.  Japanese was much more
                       brutal there especially given that guerilla
                       resistance was rampant in Manchuria.  Also, Japanese
                    \_ Manchuria was different.  Japanse ruled Taiwan for
                       a much longer time under more peaceful conditions.
                    \_ Manchuria was different.  Japan ruled Taiwan for
                       a much longer time under peaceful conditions.
                       Japanese was much more brutal in Manchuria,
                       especially given that guerilla resistance was rampant
                       there.  Also, Japanese
                       especially given that guerilla resistance was
                       rampant there.  Also, Japanese
                       rule of Manchuria was never secure, even after 1931.
                       You may ask, why is there less resistance in Taiwan.
                       Well, cause Qing China gave the island away, while
                       KMT and CCP never officially gave up on Manchuria,
                       even though the initial conventional resistance
                       even though the initial conventional resistance (1931)
                       even though the initial conventional resistance in 1931
                       was rather pathetic.  Also, there were plenty of
                       people in Manchuria who collaborated with the
                       Japanese.  My mom's side is from Manchuria, so I would
                       love to believe that Dong Bei Ren (people from
                       love to believe that Dong Bei Ren (i.e. people from
                       Manchuria) were all red-blooded patriots, but that's
                       not really true, unfortunately.
                       not really true if you study history.
                       \_ First of all, Japanese killed more than 600,000
                          Taiwanese during the 50 years of occupation (out of
                          total population of less than 3 million)
                          I wouldn't consider that a "peaceful occupation."
                          Secondly, Qing didn't "give it away."  Qing only gave
                          up after *ALL* its navy vessels and half of its army
                          got annihilated.   These are two facts that
                          Taiwanese love to ignore in order to justify its
                          independent agenda.
           \_ because they need an excuse to justify their reason for
              taking lands away from the aborigines and impose discrimentory
              immigration and birth policies toward others.
              \_ so you're ready to give up your house, apartment, etc to the
                 tribe that once lived on it?
                 \_ If you don't care about compensate aborigines for land
                    grabbing and genocide, then, stop crying faul for
                    228 incident.
                    \_ Taiwan government already paid compensation for
                       families of 228 victims a few years back.  When will
                       commie PRC pay families of Tiananmen victims?
                                             - Chicom Troll
                       \_ Has American pay compensation to the Bonus Army in
                          1932?  Did French ever compensate to the Algerian
                          Revolution?  give me a fucking break
                          \_ Who's talking about Americans?  Are you so
                             devoid of self respect that you constantly
                             need to lower yourself to the level of
                             Americans?  We citizens of the Heavenly
                             Americans?  We citizens of the Middle
                             Kingdom should be more righteous, more just,
                             and more compassionate than the lowly
                             Americans.  Have some self-pride please.
                             Don't compare yourself to animals, or you
                             will forever be beneath them.
                             Don't compare yourself to swines, or you
                             will forever be just as dirty as them.
                             Don't use swines as yardsticks, or you
                             will forever be as dirty as them.
                             Kingdom should be more righteous,
                             more compassionate, more courageous and
                             more willing to fight against injustices
                             than the lowly Americans.  Have some
                             self-pride please.  Don't use swines as
                             yardsticks, or you will forever be as
                             dirty as them.
                                              - chicom troll
                       \_ I think the poster who asked "why do people say
                          Taiwanese ..." was referring to the dialect, not the
                          race/ethnicity.
                          \_ the dialect is called "Ming Nan."  If you want to
                             be specific, the dialect is actually coming from
                             the city of XiaMen.  Remember there is a
                             significant percentage of Hekka population who
                             is been in Taiwan as long as rest of the Ming Nan
                             fractions. To say Ming Nan is "taiwanese" implies
                             those Hekka and abroginies are not.
        \_ Try http://yesasia.com, they have a bunch of CD's from asia.  I can't
           read Chinese, but searching on "taiwan" finds a bunch of CDs
           and/or artists.  You can also search in Chinese. -oj
           http://us.yesasia.com/en/Search/SearchResult.aspx
2005/12/7-9 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:40896 Activity:kinda low
12/7    Thanks for all the replies on what gifts to bring back to
        Taiwan.  I now hasve a better idea of what to bring for my aunts
        and uncles.  But what about cousins in their 20s.  Are there any
        electronic gadgets, apparel, etc.  that would be good gift ideas?
        Do people in Taiwan use iPods?  Are they more expensive in Taiwan?
        \_ Bring back nice traditional wife from rural China since most
           Taiwanese women have Westernized and modernized, meaning they
           don't cook, they don't clean, and they bitch all day.
           \_ You mean Taiwanese women are more like Hong Kong women now?
              \_ No, more like, both HK and Taiwanese women are mostly
                 Westernized so they're as bitchy as modern American
                 women. Whatever happened to the good 'ol traditional
                 women we saw from TV shows in the 60s like Bewitched and
                 I Dream of Jennie? Are they extinct? -fuck modernization
                            \_ That's "Jeannie", you cretin.
                 \_ Yes, but all sex must be scheduled in advance and only the
                    missionary position is allowed until the second child, then
                    you will be refused sex until someone dies.
                    \_ is this in reference to the 60s women, modern
                       Western women, or Westernized Asian women?
           \_ Is it just Taipei or is that true for the whole isle?
        \_ Young people in Hong Kong love Timberland boots, because they are
           very expensive over there.  Don't know about Taiwan.
           \_ haaa?  that was N years ago i think.
              \_ Oh, my sister told me this 7yrs ago.  I'm so outdated.
        \_ clothes from Polo/nautica/Gap.
2005/12/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:40873 Activity:kinda low
12/6    I am going to Taiwan in January.  Haven't been there in a very long
        time.  I need to bring some gifts, but can't think of much that's
        either uniquely available here or significantly cheaper here.  I
        need to buy gifts for kids, cousins in their 20s, and also lots of
        aunts and uncles.  What do people bring when they go back to
        Asia?  Ideas and suggestions?  Please help!
        \_ Bring back nice traditional wife from rural China since most
           Taiwanese women have Westernized and modernized, meaning they
           don't cook, they don't clean, and they bitch all day.
           \_ You mean Taiwanese women are more like Hong Kong women now?
        \_ 2 months ago my sister had to bring back 150 bottles of Centrum
           Silver we bought from Costco. I really don't understand it.
        \_ Centrum vitamins.  At least my parents did 20 years ago... -oj
           \_ Hmm, my mom still does that.
        \_ Beef jerky or dried mangoes from Costco.
           \_ Also pistachios from Costco.  My dad buys a lot of this from
              Costco to bring back to Hong Kong when he visits me.
        \_ We've brought viatamins and beef jerky back to Korea.  Probably
           the most popular thing for us has been honey.  It's very
           expensive in Korea, and my father-in-law loves it.  They also
           liked Macadamia nuts.  I don't know about Taiwan, but Koreans
           don't like overly sweet candy, so even chocolate covered rasins
           didn't go over well. American alcohol can be good too, but
           check the customs regulations. -jrleek
        \_ American ginseng from Wisconsin.  In Chinese medicine and culinary,
           American ginseng serves different purpose than the ginseng from
           American ginseng serves different purpose from the ginseng from
           Korea and north China.  -- yuen
        \_ or some Polo / Calvin Kline shirts from Cosco.  I think it's more
           suitable for people in the 20s.      -live in TW.
2005/9/28-10/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:39912 Activity:nil
9/28    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050928/od_nm/australia_births_dc
        Be patriotic, produce more kids!
        \_ Singapore has had similar policy for over a decade.  Recently Hong
           Kong followed too.
           \_ I once met a fellow in Siena who was paid by the Singapore
              government to go on vacation so he can meet women and reproduce.
              He's a dual-PhD director of some Singaporean museum and the
              government really wants him to pass on his genes.  He's also
              flaming gay, but supposedly the Singaporean reproduction
              program doesn't recognize homosexuality officially.
        \_ Taiwan also has this policy.  But get this.  The policy of
           encouraging more kids does *NOT* apply to
           1. non-Hans, which includes:
              a. Taiwan abroigine
              b. mail-order brides that is Vietnam/Indonesia/Philipine orgin
           2. Han Chinese that came from mainland China.
           Cool, huh?
           \_ Singapore encourages good genes by giving tax incentives.
              How about Taiwan? There's a difference between what the culture/
              media promote, and what the government actually advocates.
           \_ Gee.  Then this is one thing that Commie China is better.  Just
              the opposite, the one-child policy in Commie China does not apply
              to minorities.
           \_ There are Hans that didn't come from Mainland China?
              \_ you pointed out a very interesting point.  Those Hans who
                 came to Taiwan prior to Japanese occupation considered
                 themselves the true owner of Taiwan island (while
                 performing genecide toward the abroigine).  They tend
                 to be hostile to Hans who came to Taiwan after
                 Japanese occupation.
              \_ Where did Chewie come from? Or is it Chuy?
                 \_ Kashyyyk
        \_ World pop would be something like 15 trillion in 200 years if
           today's growth rate continues -- it's going to have slow down
           today's growth rate continues -- it's going to have to slow down
           some day.  Now, are the problems with a graying population easier
           to cope with if you have a large population or a small population?
           \_ that's why we need to terraform the moon and mars.
           \_ take a trip to China and step out the city.  My conclusion from
              it is that population will be limited by available fresh water.
              and deep down, I suspect there will be a plague/pandemic that
              will make Spanish Flue of 1919 looks like a child play.
              \_ But the problem with a plague at this age is that, with
                 today's travelling, a plague will probaby spread around the
                 world easily.
                 \_ yup. the result of pandemic would mean mass reduction
                    in population world wide, not confined in given region.
2005/9/22-25 [Academia, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:39829 Activity:nil
9/22    Invited by PRC to speak at Beijing University, Li Ao quoted
        Chairman Mao saying that the CCP will one day perish, and
        gave an outspoken and daring speech attacking everyone from
        Beijing University officials, CCP leaders to Taiwan politicians.
        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/23/international/asia/23china.html
2005/8/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:39330 Activity:nil
8/29    Anyone has any experience with IPTVs?  Do they work ok?  In
        particular, I am interested in mixed China/Taiwan/HK offerings.
        Recently got a mail offering from http://kylintv.com but it seems to
        be pure PRC serials / HK movies.  I also want Taiwan variety
        and political shows.  I am in the midwest, so I don't get
        any chinese channels, and I am getting free cable, so I don't
        want to go directtv.
2005/7/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:38654 Activity:moderate
7/16    What in the FUCKING WORLD is wrong with the ppl in tw?  They report
        Harry Potter plot spoilers as news events... Headline in bold on
        news sites printing so and so was killed in book 6.  WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?
        \_ I know a little Chinese, but never read taiwanese news sites.  I
           definitely appreciate the warning.  Thanks.  BTW, I propose a 1
           week potter book 6 blackout on the motd, if not longer.
           \_ Damn, and I wanted to tell the world that Harry finds out
              that James Potter isn't really dead but is masquerading
              as the Dread Pirate Sith Lord LeChuck.
        \_ Geez, it took you this long to understand why the heroic PRC wants
           to invade the place and put paid to this outrage?  -John
           \_ believe me or not, there are plenty of denizens in TW are
              looking forward for this day. and the number is growing.
        \_ Too bad. It's a good thing I can't read Chinese.
        \_ Maybe there is no real news to report?
        \_ You're saying someone was killed in book 6!?!?  Oh no, a spoiler!!
2005/6/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:38322 Activity:high
6/27    What exactly would a PRC invasion of Taiwan look like?  Naval blockade?
        Massive landing of ground troops? Bombing? Some sort of coup by
        pro-mainland agents inside the government?  Thoughts?
        \_ http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/taiwan.htm.
           Short summary: a conventional military invasion of Taiwan will fail.
             -- ilyas
           \_ What about this:
              http://www.washtimes.com/specialreport/20050626-122138-1088r.htm
              "We left the million-man swim behind in about 1998, 1999 ... And
              in fact, what people are saying now ... is that it's a moot
              point, because in just amphibious lift alone, the Chinese are
              doubling or even quadrupling their capability on an annual
              basis. ... In the '07-'08 time frame, a capability will be there
              that a year ago we would have said was very, very unlikely. We
              now assess that as being very likely to be there."
           \_ Throwing 5 million guys at the problem often worked for the
              Soviets.  -John
              \_ China will need, using a very rough estimate, 600,000-1mil
                 amphibious troops, and a perfectly executed plan that was
                 somehow concealed from the US.  If the US gets involved at any
                 stage before most of these troops are on the island, it's
                 stage before most of these troops are on the mainland, it's
                 over.  Given the stakes and the cost of failure, I do not
                 believe China will mount a conventional invasion.  This is
                 also assuming massed troops have the same value today as
                 they did in 1944.  It's actually the case that massing troops
                 puts one at a severe strategic disadvantage in today's
                 technological environment.  Aside from the amphibious
                 capabilities needed to mount such an attack, China will also
                 need to project sufficient naval power to make American
                 Navy a moot point.  This will not happen in the next 20 years,
                 and perhaps never.  I should also repeat, going into an open
                 war with the US that the US will have the spine to fight is
                 suicide for any state, China included. -- ilyas
                 \_ The US would not be enough of a factor to stop an
                    invasion, although they could cause significant damage
                    afterwards.  Supply distances are too long, and carrier
                    task groups are too vulnerable to attack.  The US,
                    especially given its low international standing now,
                    would not use tactical nukes first, and if the PRC were
                    to annihilate a few carriers with a sub-launched nuke,
                    there's your "most of them on the island" already.  -John
                    \_ I am curious if there is any concrete information known
                       about the PRCs possible plans to zerg carrier groups
                       with missiles.  I am not aware of any concrete (i.e.
                       actual existing ships involved) criticisms of carrier
                       group vulnerabilities.  I remain sceptical about PRCs
                       missile technology's ability at this time to pose a
                       genuine threat, but it is a concern.  No known submarine
                       will survive to deliver a first strike on a carrier
                       group, unless I am missing something obvious. -- ilyas
                       \_ The PRC is not currently known to have sufficient
                          SSM capability.  That doesn't mean they don't have
                          it--remember, the Soviets spent the better part of
                          30 years perfecting the idea.  And it wouldn't have
                          to survive the first strike, just get the bloody
                          things off.  First strike, remember?  Bang.  I
                          rather think the PRC is keeping off invading Taiwan
                          because (a) it would lose most of the "goodwill"
                          it's spent the last decades bribing the third world
                          into according it, and (b) the cost of having its
                          shit fucked up by the US (which it would) would
                          exceed the gain from successfully invading Taiwan
                          (which it would.)  Given time, that equation may
                          change... -John
        \_ PRC doesn't need to invade.  If Taiwan declares independence, PRC
        will just freeze all Taiwanese assets in China, lob one or two
        missiles, and Taiwan will capitulate and come back to the
        negotiation table.  In the silly fantasy scenario of an
        actual invasion, it's not going to do any stupid massive amphibious
        landing assault.  Instead, it will attempt a lightning strike.
        PRC will strike with its missiles (and planes) to try to
        incapacitate Taiwan's airforce, then it will drop airborne
        troops to try to decapitate Taiwan's leadership, and sow
        chaos all over the island.  It will attempt to do all this
        before US carrier group arrives.  This will throw Taiwan's
        people into a massive panic even if the actual operations
        aren't too successful.  What some people don't understand
        is that the will to suffer massive losses (economic and
        in terms of human lives) for an extended period is there
        for PRC if Taiwan declares independence.  It's not that
        Taiwan's military sucks or anything, it's just that
        people in Taiwan are not willing to sacrifice what it
        takes to attain dejure independence.  As for PRC, nah, it won't
        invade Taiwan without cause anytime soon like the recent silly
        articles surmised.  It will just continue to bid its time, and
        integrate Taiwan economically.
                 and perhaps never.  -- ilyas
                    \_ I don't know if China has any concrete plans to zerg
                       the carrier groups in some way with missiles
        for PRC if Taiwan declares independence.
        integrate Taiwan economically, as long as Taiwan doesn't declare
        independence.
        \_ this is the closest to what will happen in reality.
2005/6/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:38312 Activity:kinda low
6/27    I'm a Taiwanese citizen and my password renewal is only $36 at the
        Taiwanese Cultural Center (Embassy in Los Angeles) and takes
        about 2-3 weeks. My gf is a US citizen and her passport renewal is
        $55 and takes about 6 weeks. Her expedited fee is $60. Can someone
        tell me why there's a big difference? Like government more/less
        efficient, funding issues, 9/11 background check, etc?
        \_ It isn't a big difference.
        \_ Perhaps tw population is only 23 million, and u.s. is 300 million?
        \_ Probably because they assume Americans have more money.  When
           I applied for a travel visa at the Chinese consulate in SF it
           was $100, but a lot cheaper for Chinese citizens.
        \_ Shrug, I didn't do expedited and my U.S. passport came in the
           mail in 10 days last year.
           \_ I got my US passport in about a week as well.
        \_ American government worker efficiency can be easily characterized
           as those who work as efficiently as DMV. Go Europe!!! Fuck America!
        \_ Cheap Taiwanese labor
        \_ Seriously though - when you renew your Taiwanese passport (or any
           other foreign passports) in their respective embassies/consulates,
           you seldom get the maximum renewal period. So if you go back to
           Taiwan and renew your Taiwanese passport there, you might get 6
           extra years while here in LA you only get 3 years extension. The
           idea is to give you enough time and encourage you to renew back in
           Taiwan. US passports are more expensive to renew, BUT you get
           something like 5-10 extra years, so the $$$ is a wash.
           \- this is an artificial number. the time is what the govt
              wants it to be. it's like asking why library A allows 3weeks
              + 3 renewals and another library allows 1month + 2 renewals.
              however the costs may be affected by the USD exchange rate.
2005/6/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:38039 Activity:nil
6/8     Hey Taiwanese people. How important is it nowadays to speak
        Taiwanese? Do people treat you better if you speak Taiwanese?
        Do they treat you like a Mainlander dirt if you use Mandarin?
                        -someone who understands but can't speak well
        \_ Depends where you are in Taiwan.  If you're in Taipei it
           doesn't matter.  But if you go to the South area you will find some
           people won't even be able to talk to you in Mandarin.  Also you'll
           have more friendly encounters if you speak Taiwanese there.
           \_ so how worthwhile is it to learn it fluently? I only know basics
              \_ depends on where you live, and how you plan to use
                 it of course.  When I was at Berkeley they offered a
                 student initiated and organized Taiwanese class
                 for credit.
        \_ It depends upon you.  If you have elders who don't speak
           Mandarin, then, you should learn to speak with them.  If
           you are the type who treat this "Taiwanese" (which is, strictly
           speaking, a dialect of Southern Fujian province) as an important
           identity thing, then, stop asking questions and just learn it.
           I speak Mandarin Chinese with a Beijing accent (which is
           still in many ways considered proper, eventhough not necessarily
           politically correct).  Despite decade of racial campaign against
           those who either identify with China and/or parents are born
           in China by DPP, people in Taiwan generally pretty tolerant and
           friendly.  Most people treat me as a Mainlander, and I no longer
           bother to explain it.
           and why do you care if they treat you as a Mainlander dirt? are
           you saying that you are embracing this kind of racial prejudice?
2005/5/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:37497 Activity:nil 52%like:37467
5/3     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4507681.stm
        1626 : "24 bibelots pour Manhattan"
        2005 : "2 pandas vraiment mignons pour Taiwan"le
        \_ sont eux les carottes agricoles d'offre à Taiwan parce que
           many des fermiers de Taiwan sont-ils les défenseurs de Chen ?
2005/5/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:37467 Activity:nil 52%like:37497
5/2     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4507681.stm
        1626: "24 trinkets for Manhattan"
        2005: "2 really cute pandas for Taiwan"
        \_ Are they offering agricultural carrots to Taiwan because
           many of Taiwan's farmers are Chen's supporters?
        \_ sind sie anbietende landwirtschaftliche Karotten zu Taiwan
           many?
2005/4/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:37015 Activity:nil
4/1     And this is supposed to be the #1 English language paper for Taiwan
        http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2005/04/01/2003248585
        \_ Huh?  What's wrong with the article itself?
2005/3/24-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:36866 Activity:nil
3/24    Ah, the eloquence of Taiwanese English media
        http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2005/03/25/2003247763
2005/1/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:35686 Activity:moderate
1/12    I have a friend who has to go to Taiwan for work occasionaly and he
        says all he can find is wierd bland seafood dishes.  What are some
        things he should order to satisfy an American palate?  And how do you
        pronounce them?
        \_ Tell him to try the durian.
        \_ "Mahk Doh nalds" -- You might have to order a royale with cheese.
          \_ you mean MAI DONG LAW!!! Every old Chinese immigrant I've met
             say that. And GO BO-KO-LAI! Go Beahs!
2004/10/11 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:34024 Activity:very high
10/8    I have a greencard but don't have a US citizenship. Can I get
        in/out of Canada using just my greencard+driver's license?
        Do I need my passport? Is there anything I have to do at the
        Taiwanese embassy?                              -Taiwanese
        \_ I was under the impression that US citizens were now expected
           to present a passport at the border.  The last time I crossed
           the border I was stopped several miles *inside* the U.S. in
           upstate new york and asked by a soldier to present a passport(
           I'm a U.S. citizen).  Paranoia is the word of the day right now.
           And with Bush slipping in the polls, I would expect Tom Ridge
           to be announcing lots of vague terror threats in the next few
           weeks.  If I were you, i'd bring whatever documentation I could
           possible think of, and find a place ahead of time to stay in
           possibly think of, and find a place ahead of time to stay in
           canada after you get stuck there.
        \-for mexico and canda greencard will get you back into the
          country ... when i have gone to mexico, they have sometimes
          stamped my passport. if you were a brown person, i would
          probably take a passport to mexico. i think it's generally
          not a bad idea to take the passport along.
        \_ 1. I wouldn't do it.  I would suggest you get visa anyway.
           2. just a kindly reminder.  There is no such thing as Taiwanese
              embassy.
                \_ I know, it's called the Taiwanese Cultural Center.
                   I said embassy because most people here don't know
                   about it.
        \_ ditto above.  I think that technically as a citizen, you can just
           present your driver's license, so you might be able to get away
           with just your greencard and license.  I've known a couple people
           who went away for holidays in the last two years and were unable
           to get back in for several weeks.  Granted, these were people with
           student visas who went home to India.  Canada might not be a
           problem... but I'd do a little online research just in case.
        \_ You need your Taiwan passport to get in/out of country and a
           green card to enter the US.
        \_ I read about this on the CIS website - since Mexico & Canada are
           NAFTA countries, as a permanent resident you are allowed up to
           30-day per stay without Mexican/Canadian visa. It's a good idea
           to bring your passport along though - the U.S. Border Patrol would
           want to see it.
           \-hello i posted the original followup but another fellow makes
             a good point about the new chimpy world order ... now i would
             take my passport for sure.
2004/8/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:33186 Activity:very high
8/27    Last night on NBC the president of IOC mentioned that, as an example
        that IOC doesn't do everyting to please Americans, baseball will be
        removed from the Olympics in the future.  Anyone knows what the reason
        is to remove baseball?  It was just added recently.
        \_ have you eve been to a baseball game involving teams
           you don't care about?  5 hours of pain in the sun!
           \_ it's quite pleasant if you're a fan of the sport.  i try to
              take in a night game when i have the time, especially in the
              middle of longer business trips.
              \_ I bet 5 hours in the grecian sun would suck.  are there
                 any other events with games that long?
                 \_ i believe the average major league game is just under
                    3 hours.  are olympic games longer than that?
        \_ Probably softball too. Too few countries participating. Host
           countries are left with a stadium they can't use for any other
           purpose.
        \_ Because we invaded Iraq.
        \_ Because it's stupid and they can't dress the women in skimpy outfits
           like basketball and *cough* beach vollyball?!?!?
        \_ The Olympics is a bunch of assholes out to make money.
        \_ This is fine. Not even Americans give a shit about baseball, and
           especially not softball which is just bastardized baseball anyway.
           Cricket has a lot more of a world following, and would include
           those highly-populated southeast asian countries. But cricket takes
           literally days to play a match and so a condensed version would be
           needed for the Olympics.
        \_ Sounds more like an anti-Japan ruling...
           \_ Anti-Cuban.  Japan probably does its fair share of greasing
              palms at the IOC.
              \_ And anti-Taiwan?  I think baseball is the #1 sport there.
                 \_ The Taiwanese will give money to any organization that
                    recognizes them.
                    \_ Taiwan is like a big prostitute.  At least it
                       won some cool medals this time around.
                                                - tainan taiwanese
                       \_ Hey, is there some scheme where we can get the
                          Taiwanese government to fund the CSUA?  Maybe
                          we can name a machine after the country or rename
                          ourselves CSUA for Taiwan Independence?
                          \_ It has been a dream of mine to register
                             csua.int for some time. Maybe we can get
                             the US and Taiwan to form a Computer
                             Science Undergraduate Association Friendship
                             committee or something.
2004/6/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:30873 Activity:high
6/17    What do Taiwanese people have against Jackie Chan?
        \_ he's a male chauvinist pig
           \_ thanks for the fact filled url on that topic!
              \_ if you were a h07 42n ch1c u would already know!
        \_ because earlier he made a comment in Shanghai, saying that Taiwan's
           election in 2004 is "stupid."  Taiwan government felt insulted,
           refused to issue license for this charity performance.
           \_ I have a Taiwanese friend who's hated him for more than a year.
              Is this 2004 election the only reason?
              \_ He married a famous Taiwanese actress, and she stopped
                 making movies.  Some people were annoyed about that.
        \_ I hate him because his movies promote Asian stereotypes, that
           they're short and ugly and that their accent & moves are hilarious
           hence should not be taken seriously          -serious asian
           \_ Anyone who actually believes this is an idiot.  For
              examples, see the "Hardboiled" newspaper around Berkeley.
                                 \_ white on the outside, yellow on the inside?
           \_ you care too much about what white people think, and thus
              allowed them to define you.  you will never jump out of it
              that way.  you will always be a wannabe.
              \_ no one is 'defining' him or anyone else.  no one thinks
                 Jackie Chan = Standard Asian Male.  he's a comedy actor who
                 does physical comedy and stunts.  nothing more.
                 \_ so what's your problem?
                 \_ I think it's worth pointing out that Jackie Chan
                    thinks of himself as a modern day Buster Keaton.  He's
                    studied Keaton's work, and apparently is a big fan.
        \_ urlP?
           \_ #t
2004/6/4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:30595 Activity:nil
6/4     Question for the anti-Taiwan independence crowd.  Didn't China
        cede Taiwan to Japan in the treaty of Shimonoseki?  -- ilyas
              \_ China tried ceding Taiwan, but Taiwan declared indepen-
                 dence before the Japanese invaded Taiwan, then Japan
                 ceded Taiwan back to China after WWII.  Weird.  That's
                 why Taiwan should declare independence.  We have
                 superior US made weapons that will kick China arse.
                 Some association of US companies in Taiwan put out
                 an advertisement in some Taiwan newspaper last weekend
                 warning Taiwan government to negotiate direct
                 shipping, flight, etc. to PRC, or US companies will all
                 be dumping Taiwan soon.  Those traitors!
                 Taiwan will soon be spending another US$18 billion to
                 buy weapons.  Greedy Americans overcharges Taiwan by
                 an arm and a leg for the weapons since no one else
                 sells to Taiwan.  Those bastards!  But hey, those
                 are some cool toys to play with.  I was personally
                 aboard one of the Knox class destroyers when it was down
                 in Long Beach during handover training after it was
                 bought by Taiwan.  That was one outdated warship.
                 We need a few Aegis boats instead.  Please sell us
                 a few.  PRC commies recently been unofficially
                 publishing list of Taiwan actresses and singers and
                 stars who are pro-independence.  Heard that president
                 Ah Bian recently had trouble inviting any of these
                 money grubbing actresses and singers and stars to
                 his functions.  Those PRC commie bastard bullies!
              \_ yea but article 4 of the Treaty of Peace between China
                 and Japan states that:
                        It is recognised that all treaties, conventions,
                        and agreements concluded before 9 December 1941
                        between Japan and China have become null and
                        void as a consequence of the war.
2004/4/26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:13389 Activity:nil
4/26    US warns Taiwan not to perceive pledge of defense as blank check
        http://csua.org/u/72p (NYTimes: csuamotd/csuamotd)
        \_ thank you for the csuamotd!! now i can read NY times!!
           \_ and numerous other pseudo-free registration sites.
        \_ Yeah, that and all the other news I've been reading still suggests
           that the U.S. doesn't think Taiwanese independence is worth it;
           if Taiwan wants to break the status quo by pushing for formal
           independence, we might break away from the Taiwan Relations Act --
           there is only one China
           \_ If it comes down to it, I don't think it's worth it either.
              The status quo works.  I don't want to get into a war with
              China over a semantic pissing match.
           \_ The current status quo only works up to now because it is based
              on the assumption of a static model that the 2 sides are on
              equal military footing.  However, the situation across the TW
              Strait is dynamic one. With recent missiles build up in CN,
              CN is estimated to have the capability to invade and take TW
              by 2006-2008.  TW's current administration is under time
              pressure to take some form of action by then.  One scenario is
              an outright formal independence.  Another one is unification
              under CN's one-china terms.  The current status quo is
              unlikely to be able to last for another 10 years.
              \_ "With recent missiles build up in CN, CN is estimated to
                 have the capability to invade and take TW by 2006-2008" --
                 this is the first time I've seen this, and I read a lot
                 of stuff.  "TW's current administration is under time
                 pressure to take some form of action by then".  Have you
                 considered that a vastly more important factor could be that
                 Chen's term will be up by then so he's trying to get the
                 change in while he can, since Ma, KMT's probable candidate,
                 will probably win in 2008 and follow this with dropping any
                 pro-independence measures in progress?
                 \_ Actually this quote suddenly appeared on some newspaper
                    from Taiwan today, ostensibly quoting Jane's, which, as
                    I recall, has always been giving fuzzy statements like that
                    not just on China but just about any contentious subject,
                    but the dates keep changing.
2004/4/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12991 Activity:high
4/2     Taiwan forming its own identity, apart from China -SJ Mercury News
        http://csua.org/u/6qg
        \_ how powerful is Taiwan's military?  Who'll come to Taiwan
           support if China invades Taiwan?
           \_ currently strong enough that China can't risk a failed invasion.
              the US will.
              \_ Is Taiwan recognized by the U.N.?  But how did this happen
                 when China is in the security council?
                 \_ Taiwan Relations Act
                 \_ Who cares what the UN recognizes?
                    \_ it's not the UN, it's every single darn country in
                       in the world including the USA, with the exception
                       of a few banana republics in the 3rd world part of
                       of the americas.
                       \_ which "it" are you refering to?  As long as the US,
                          Japan, and the EU are willing to trade with you, it
                          doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
           \_ Didn't we cover all of this, yesterday?
        \_ I read somewhere that Taiwan's military is strong enough to
           defend itself for a few weeks. At any rate, if China seriously
           wants to take over Taiwan, it can do so easily. It's just a
           question of how they want to be perceived by others. The Chinese
           question of how they want to be perceived by others. The CHinese
           government feels insulted by the Taiwanese government so they
           gotta act tough. By they also won't attack Taiwan just because
           they don't want other people to perceive them as an aggressive
           nation.
           \_ Okay, mano a mano, China can most likely beat Taiwan.  I don't
              think anyone ever said the opposite.  They won't attack Taiwan
              because of U.S. power; China would like its own citizens to
              believe that it's not attacking Taiwan because of its great
              benevolence, which is not a real problem given its propaganda,
              censorship, and punishment machine.
              \_ I am fucking tired of this worn topic, so here is for you
                 to know.  1) China does NOT have the capability to invade
                 Taiwan in the near future.  2) China does HAVE the ability
                 make the life in Taiwan miserable for the foreseeable future
                 and beyond without actually using much of a military force.
                 \_ My post counters all the assertions of the previous post.
                    \_ No, it doesn't.  Your post makes unfounded assertions
                       no different than the one you respond to above.
                    Your post ... just seems to be angry.
        \_ Can some anti-Taiwan-independence person explain to me why wanting
           independence for its own sake is a bad thing?  Surely we have
           some people on the motd who don't want an independent Taiwan,
           otherwise this topic wouldn't keep coming up. -- ilyas
           \_ ha, that'll get a predictable response. haven't you heard all the
              "inseparable part of china" stuff? expect a civil war reference.
           |_ We were proud being Chinese till the damn Westerners
              humiliated us in the past 200 years. We're sick and tired of
              seeing your corrupt big white penises^H^H^H^H^H^H^H military
              power in our ass and we just want to show you that we're not
              the stupid, unsophisticated savages you portray us to be. At
              any rate, we want unification so that we will eventually kick
              you ass like we did centries ago.
              \_ You are showing us already...
              \_ unification won't help.  your entire culture is pointed in
                 the wrong direction to overtake the US or even the EU.  if
                 China had the same military as the US they'd have already
                 taken over the world so you can put away the America bashing.
                 \_ Nah, when China's mighty fleet sailed the seven seas under
                    admiral Cheng Ho, it didn't invade or occupy any country
                    even though it could easily do so.  Chinese is just not
                    interested in barbarian lands cause they smell bad.  Only
                    barbarians invade other people's lands.  Chinese prefer to
                    allow the barbarians to voluntarily join the Great Chinese
                    Civilization but only after they learned to civilize
                    \_ *hahahahhahahahhahahahahahaa*!!! too funny!  Let's go
                       share some boiled pigs knuckles and watch a few
                       hundred drug dealers get executed in public right after
                       we perform a few forced abortions on the outlying farms.
              \_ You are showing us already...
                 taken over the world so you can put away the America bashing.
                    themselves.
           \_ I already answered the question yesterday.  let's put it this
              way.  taiwan already has de facto independence under the
              current status quo.  why risk economic war or military war
              with prc for "official independence".  taiwan is already paying
              a huge economic price in terms of lack of direct links with
              prc and the military arms race with prc, and the various self-
              imposed limits place on its companies in terms of investing /
              setting up shop in the prc.  taiwan shares the same language as
              prc, and taiwan businessmen are thriving in prc.  the tv
              shows, movies, music, food all have huge overlap.  why risk
              all that just to gain the independence "name", which still
              will not be recognized by all the major countries in the
              world?  there is nothing necessarily wrong with taiwan
              independence per se, just like there is nothing necessarily
              wrong with say Hawaii independence, but in practice it is
              not worth it.  Now, most people from the prc would disagree
              with this view.  they believe taiwan is part of an
              unfinished civil war.  they also believe that taiwan is in
              many ways a pawn of US and Japan, even though they would admit
              that the flow of investment, technology, management expertise
              from taiwan to prc has benefitted the prc tremendously over the
              past 20 years.  add to that the long history of japan and western
              bullying of china (as the "big white penis"-guy above
              pointed out), and taiwan independence becomes unacceptable
              at any cost.  on the other hand, many prc people, or at
              least those in the us, recognized that taiwan is in most
              ways more advanced than the prc, and that war is the last
              resort, and status quo is the best, and prc should learn
              from taiwan in many ways.  why don't you tell us what is the
              criteria one should use in weighing the merits on whether
              a territory should become independent?
              \_ You are talking about the international games of chess.  China
                 doesn't want US influence to expand, etc.  Do you have a moral
                 argument against the independence of Taiwan (assuming a
                 majority of Taiwanese want it)?  I don't care about the rest,
                 because the rest is soulless bullshit. -- ilyas
                 \_ soulless bullshit?  you don't know what the fuck you
                    are talking about.  We are talking about real lives
                    in the real world, not one of your silly little
                    pseudo intellectual head games.
                    \_ Just like the founders of this nation.  They spilled
                       blood and most ended poor or dead from our war of indep.
                       from England.  Just some silly little head game over
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       \_ yea, they spilled blood just like the southerners
                          spilled blood during the civil war.  if you want
                          independence, blood will be spilled.  Also, unlike
                          US vs far away England, taiwan will still have to
                          live with a hostile neighbour 100 times its size.
                          \_ With real acknowledged independence they will be
                             out from the ever present shadow of the evil PRC.
                             The constant threat of invasion and the
                             uncertainty of their future status is a big long
                             term drag on the economy which hinders foreign
                             investment and growth.  If their status were
                             finally resolved the newly free Taiwan would make
                             the current Taiwan look like the 3rd world.
                    pseudo intellectual head games.
                       from England.  Just some silly little head game over
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       \_ yea, they spilled blood just like the southerners
                          spilled blood during the civil war.  if you want
                          independence, blood will be spilled.
                          Like I said, taiwan already has democracy and
                          freedom.  what additional benefits will independence
                          bring?  what are the risks and costs?
                    \_ Ok, let's try this again.  Say there is this
                       hypothetical island in the pacific, where the majority
                       of the population wants to secede from the big
                       continental Paterland.  The big continental Paterland
                       doesn't want this, for a variety of realpolitik reasons
                       which I understand.  Aside from those reasons, the moral
                       argument against the independence of the island is...?
                         -- ilyas
                       \_ I don't know about a "moral" argument, but how
                          about the fact that Taiwanese people suck just
                          as bad at government as Mainlanders?  In fact,
                          historically Chinese stink at government.
                          \_ What are you trying to say here, that the
                             Taiwanese (and Chinese) are incapable of governing
                             themselves well, and need strong foreign
                             leadership?  -- ilyas
                             \_ No, just that it doesn't really matter
                                if they're independent or not, things
                                are going to suck.  What they need isn't
                                foreigners, they need a truly great
                                   \_ Welcome to World History.  Enjoy your
                                      stay. -- ilyas
                                leader to emerge, the likes of which
                                they've seldom had in their thousands of
                                years of history.
                                      \_ I'm just asking for clarification.
                                years of history.
                                   Their world spanning empire collapses into
                                   anarchy until the next superman emerges a
                                   \_ These "great" leaders are mostly known
                                      for wars and conquests. I don't think I
                                      want one of them drafting me into his
                                      glorious army.
                                   few hundred years later?
                                \_ So you're saying the entire Chinese culture
                                   is simply broken and they need a superman to
                                   save their pathetic useless asses?  And what
                                   happens after this mythical superman dies?
                                   Their world spanning empire collapses into
                                   anarchy until the next superman emerges a
                                   few hundred years later?
                                   \_ Welcome to World History.  Enjoy your
                                      stay. -- ilyas
                                   \_ you didn't know the Chinese culture was
                                      broken?  people realized it back in the
                                      last century.
                                \_ If a truly great leader emerges, I want him
                                   here where I live.  Those are rare!
                                     -- ilyas
                        \_ let's say 49% of the population do not wish to
                           secede.  Also, say, the population of Paterland
                           have fought many wars and sacrificed many lives
                           in defense of the island (whose population was
                           originally happy to be part of Paterland since
                           they are from Paterland) against invaders who
                           after taking the island, also invaded other
                           parts of Paterland, exploiting the island for
                           supplies, etc. for its war effort, killing millions
                           of Paterland people.  Let's say big amounts of
                           wealth from Paterland has been used to help
                           develop the island over many years  ...  by the
                           way, if I live in wisconsin, does that mean I
                           have no stake in say florida, or do I have a
                           stake there too since it is also part of my
                           country?
                           \_ Only about 20% of Taiwan population came from
                              China during the 20th century.  Immigration
                              patterns don't prove very much.  At one point,
                              the vast majority of Americans were of British
                              descent.  That Paterland provided for
                              the island's security at one point is irrelevant.
                              That's like saying if a girl dates a guy, and he
                              gets a bloody nose protecting her, she has to
                              marry him and stay with him forever.  What if
                              she no longer likes him?
                              If you live in Wisconsin, it's frankly none of
                              your business if Florida wants to secede.
                                -- ilyas
                              \_ really?  so even though americans fought
                                 to protect hawaii from the japanese during
                                 ww2, it doesn't count for anything, and hawaii
                                 can just dump the US if it chose to do so?
                                 Also, say, as an american, I like the freedom
                                 and choice to be able to move around the
                                 country.  for example, say, I want to work in
                                 illinois, and retire in florida.  you are saying
                                 this freedom of mine can be taken away?  Also,
                                 I like to visit the national parks of this
                                 country, but some random territory can just
                                 declare these parks to off limits to all
                                 other americans besides the locals?  do you
                                 even know what it means to be a nation?
                                 \_ As far as I am concerned, nations are
                                    voluntary things.  If people can't leave
                                    it's a gulag, not a nation.  If Floridians
                                    decide they want to strike it on their own,
                                    and close their borders to tourists, that's
                                    their right.  You don't have a right to
                                    wander through other people's backyards,
                                    if they don't want you there. -- ilyas
                                    \_ so north taiwan can declare indepen-
                                       dence and become a separate nation
                                       from south taiwan, or maybe remain
                                       in status quo, or even rejoin china?
                                       \_ If they want, yes. -- ilyas
                                          \_ so if I declare my ranch to be
                                             a one person nation and then
                                             let russia place an icbm here,
                                             there is no problem right?
                                             \_ no, you can't.  you're not a
                                                large enough entity to survive
              since you'll be landlocked, have no access to seed, water,  _/
              fuel, fertiliser, trade partners, medical care or anything else
              without passing through US territory you exist at the whim of
              the US which makes your 'nation' no different than being a
              citizen-slob like the rest of us.  pay your taxes and shut up.
                                                   \_ As far as I am concerned
                                                      you have a right to
                                                      secede by default, and
                                                      the burden of proof is
                                                      on the other party (in
                                                      this case the US).  Of
                                                      course, per the link I
                                                      posted below, US will not
                                                      allow secession, since
                                                      democracies are destroyed
                                                      by secessions. -- ilyas
                                             there is no problem right?
                                                independently.  you can declare
                                                anything you want but even if
                                                the US let you secede you'd
                                                just starve to death.  since
                                                of the US you *are* a part of
                                       if you don't like it, you can always
                                       leave the country.  and no, nobody's
                                                the US (in effect) thus your
                                                secession is meaningless.  pay
                                                your taxes and stop wanking.
                                                you'd only survive at the will
                                                of the US you *are* a part of
                                                the US (in effect) thus your
                                                secession is meaningless.  pay
                                                your taxes and stop wanking.
                                                \_ why will I starve to death?
                                                   I can just grow food on
                                                   my plot of land and
                                                   live well.  hundreds of
                                                   millions of subsistence
                                                   farmers all over the world
                                                   do that.
                                    \_ no a nation is not a voluntary thing.
                                       it is a shared thing owned by all
                                             \_ I don't know.  I think we need
                                                a few hundred years and better
                                                tech for the kind of government
                                                I would be happy with.  Your
                                                argument can also read: "What
                                                makes you say US will be
                                                successful with so many hostile
                                                non-democracies stomping
                                                around?"  -- ilyas
                                                \_ The answer  to your question
                                                   is already answered by you.
                                                   The US federal government
                                                   forces everyone to work
                                                   together for the greater
                                                   good whether you want to or
                                                   not.  In a libertarian
                                                   system what is your method
                                                   of common defense?  Intern'l
                                                   trade?  Transport?  Border
                                                   protection?  It's here and
                                                   now without needing Star
                                                   Trek tech to make it work.
                                          \_ They don't necessarily rely on it.
                                             Usually they want to be part of
                                             a larger group so as to have more
                                             power and benefits. If they were
                                             too fragmented they'd also be
                                             vulnerable to aggressive non-
                                             democracies as you say. I think
                                             that if the South had successfully
                                             seceded, it would have altered
                                             world history but not necessarily
                                             anything so terrible. The key is
                                             the "states' rights" issue which
                                             e.g. in Europe will always be
                                             important. I believe USA founders
                                             intended a lot more state power
                                             and less federal. It's also pretty
                                             clear that Californians would be
                                             better served by being split into
                                             at least 2 states.
                                             \_ It depends on where you draw
                                                that line.  Some splittists
                                                want to draw that line north
                                                of the SF Bay Area.
                                       backyard is florida.  backyard is the
                                       citizens.  no it is not a gulag because

                                       small patch of lawn behind your house.
                                       if you don't like it, you can always
                                       leave the country, or work to change it
                                       for the better.  and no, nobody's
                                       backyard is florida.  backyard is the
                                       small patch of lawn behind your house.
                                       \_ Here is a good read on ethics of
                                          secession:
              \_ of course it's the US navy.  once the Korean War started,
                 the US 7th fleet is ready to defend taiwan, and prc indefi-
                 nitely postponed all plans for invading taiwan.  Lots
                 of Taiwanese communists then were ready to help the prc from
                 the inside if prc invaded.
                 \_ Why did the PRC not chase the KMT to Taiwan immediately?
                    Because they couldn't.  The USN came much later and now
                    it's too late.  Without fighting it, no one can say if
                    the PRC can take Taiwan or not without US helping Taiwan.
                    Even if the US backed out now, I don't see the PRC going
                    in for at least 10-15 more years.  They don't have the
                    air force, the navy, the troop transports, and most
                    importantly, the logistical capacity to launch a large
                    scale amphibious invasion.  DDay wasn't just luck.
              "inseparable part of china" stuff? expect a civil war reference.
                         -- ilyas
           you can't defend yerself for just to prove a point
           that's no longer a point.
           It's fun to watch people who follow too. -- ivy
                  http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/secession.html
                                          Interesting point: democracies rely
                                          on suppression of secession.  This
                                          is one of the reasons I dislike
                                          democracies (and why there is tension
                                          between libertarian ideas and
                                          democratic ideas).  There are some
                                          other goodies on that site worth
                                          reading. -- ilyas
                                          \_ uhm, what is your governmental
                                             preference if not democracy?  you
                                             think a purely libertarian form
                                             of government is viable in a world
                                             with so many hostile non-libert.
                                             governments stomping around?
                                             \_ I don't know.  I think we need
                                                a few hundred years and better
                                                tech for the kind of government
                                                I would be happy with.  Your
                                                argument can also read: "What
                                                makes you say US will be
                                                successful with so many hostile
                                                non-democracies stomping
                                                around?"  -- ilyas
        \_ It gotta be the funniest thing if you say Taiwan can defend itself.
           It's the dumbest thing to do to pick a fight
           you can't defend yerself for just to prove a point
           that's no longer a point.
           It's fun to watch people who follow too. -- ivy
           \_ This is historically and factually incorrect.  If Taiwan was
              unable to defend itself or more correctly if the PRC was capable
              of taking over Taiwan at any point in the last 50 years they
              would have.  What stopped them from following when the KMT losers
              fled the mainland and continuing their winning civil war on the
              island and being done with it?  It wasn't the US Navy....
              \_ of course it's the US navy.  once the Korean War started,
                 the US 7th fleet is ready to defend taiwan, and prc indefi-
                 nitely postponed all plans for invading taiwan.  Lots
                 of Taiwanese communists then were ready to help the prc from
                 the inside if prc invaded.
2004/4/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12965 Activity:very high
4/1     The reason why PRC is keeping quiet about Taiwan election -
        http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_14/b3877006.htm
        http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_14/b3877002.htm
        \_ because PRC learned its lesson.  Last thing they want is TW
           nationals rallying against them.  If you know anything about
           Chinese Communist Party, you should know that when they are being
           people rally against them.  If you know anything about Chinese
           quiet, that is when you should be REALLY worry about them.
        \_ This article is filled with "I'm a moron" spin.  Another
           way you could spin it is that Chen's share of the vote increased
           from ~ 35-40% from the 2000 election to ~ 50% for 2004, China
           would find its own stability problematic if it decided to attack
           Taiwan and disrupt business, everyone in Taiwan already knew
           the referendums were totally political anyway, and whatever China
           has or hasn't done, Chen has been re-elected.  In fact, I would
           say that China has realized its previously asinine diplomatic
           approaches have been replaced with something more reasonable.
           \_ why the range of 35-40% ?  he got 39% in 2000 in a 3-way race.
              \_ maybe because I couldn't remember what the exact percentage
                 was?
           \_ let's say if taiwan declares independence, and prc takes
              over all taiwan linked assets and factories in china, and
              cuts off all trade with taiwan (prc being taiwan's biggest
              export market).  is this a cost taiwan is willing to bear
              to move from status quo to independence?  for how long?
              \_ What if then the US freezes all trade to China?  Is this a
                 cost China is willing to bear by being aggressive to Taiwan?
                 For how long?
                 \_ Fat chance.  That would wreck our economy.  If China
                    attacked Taiwan, we'd make a lot of noise and let them
                    burn.
                    \_ In order for China to attack Taiwan, it will need to
                       mass forces.  The U.S. will deploy a couple aircraft
                       carriers, deterring the amphibious assault.  China will
                       need a credible anti-carrier capability, which is why
                       it's developing GPS-guided cruise missiles.  If the U.S.
                       can somehow manage to maintain combat superiority,
                       China won't even try to mass forces.  In the
                       mean time, the U.S. is hoping China and Taiwan will
                       develop business links to an extent that neither will
                       want to disrupt the trade relationship.
                       \_ I doubt China will try to invade Taiwan.  Instead,
                          it may shoot a few missiles, send it's submarine
                          fleet around Taiwan and warn other countries to
                          refrain from sailing their ships there.  This
                          would bring the US fleet near Taiwan, and then
                          who knows what will happen.  US will likely be
                          pressuring Taiwan to backtrack on independence
                 \_ Fat chance.  That would wreck our economy.  If China
                    attacked Taiwan, we'd make a lot of noise and let them
                    burn.
                       mean time, the U.S. is hoping China and Taiwan will
                       develop business links to an extent that neither will
                       want to disrupt the trade relationship.
                          at that point.  Die hard Taiwan independence
                          advocates will wish the posturing will escalate
                          into a war between US and prc.
                          \_ The PRC is a loooong way from even thinking about
                             being able to take on the US Navy.  They might
                             sink a few ships but they'll lose *everything*
                             they've spent 20+ years building up in a few hours
                             and they know it.  If it was otherwise they would
                             have attacked already.
                             \_ clueless one. the prc doesn't need to take
                                on the US Navy.  All they need is to cut
                                off all trade with Taiwan and Taiwan is
                                economically dead.
                                \_ So is China.  China wouldn't cut off it's
                                   nose to spite their face.  Don't call me
                                   clueless until you've demonstrated superior
                                   knowledge or ability.  You've failed on both
                                   counts thus far.  China has only 2 options
                                   to retake Taiwan.  The Taiwanese vote to go
                                   back which is less likely each day or they
                                   invade.
                          \_ Can't you just accept that people like political
           Communist Party, you should know that when they are being
           quiet, that is when you should be REALLY worry about them.
                    be forced to do.
                        \_ nobody mentioned anything about "attack".
                 \_ It isn't even a choice.  It's the minimal PRC would
                    be forced to do.
                    \_ "forced to do", hmmm.
                       \_ exactly.  which part of it do you not understand?
              \_ That's a lot of "if's".  Taiwan will not declare independence;
                 rather, Chen will say it was always independent, so there was
                 nothing to declare anyway.  The question you should be asking
                 is, what if Chen passes a new constitution, and that's a big
                 if, too.
                 \_ Chen will push and push, but PRC will finally draw a line,
                    and that's what I am referring to above.  stop nitpicking,
                    and wasting words.
                 if, too.  And if a new constitution were passed, I have a hard
                 time believing that China would follow up with what you said.
                 I would say this path would lead to war with the U.S., and
                 China wouldn't want to take that chance, since they know
                 they would be beat by the U.S., and they wouldn't want to
                 lose face in any withdrawal.
                             freedoms, people like personal freedoms,
                             they don't want the half-assed Hong Kong "Basic
                             Law" situation -- and they want anyone who would
                             take away those freedoms to go to hell?
                             Just ask all the KMT protesters (even though
                             they're all wrong).
                             \_ Taiwan already has political and personal
                                freedoms.  Taiwan independence is a
                                possible option in theory.  In reality
                                the cost is too high, especially
                                when Taiwan already has all the freedoms
                                under the current status quo.
                                \_ Except for the constant threat of Chinese
                                   invasion, yeah, sort of.
                                   \_ the problem has always been how to
                                      deal with the threat.  burying your
                                      skull in the sand doesn't help.
                 \_ It isn't even a choice.  It's the minimal PRC would
                    be forced to do.
              \_ That's a lot of "if's".  Taiwan will not declare independence;
                 rather, Chen will say it was always independent, so there was
                 nothing to declare anyway.  The question you should be asking
                 is, what if Chen passes a new constitution, and that's a big
                 if, too.  And if a new constitution were passed, I have a hard
                 time believing that China would follow up with what you said.
                 I would say this path would lead to war with the U.S., and
                 China wouldn't want to take that chance, since they know
                 they would be beat by the U.S., and they wouldn't want to
                 lose face in any withdrawal.
                 \_ chen can push and push, but prc will draw a line somewhere,
                    and then the above actions is the minimal that the prc
                    will do.  It may be all at once or one step at a time
                    but it will go on until taiwan backs down.  it doesn't
                    need to fire a shot, and taiwan's economy would be in
                    ruins.  Is that a cost taiwan is willing to pay to go
                    from status quo (note: nobody is talking about being
                    subject to prc rule here) to independence?  United
                    States has been protecting Taiwan for the past half
                    a century.  Instead of being grateful, should Taiwan
                    insist on demanding that Americans spill blood for
                    them, moving in a direction that would be economically
                    devastating to Taiwan, China, US and all east asian
                    nations?  President Bush has repeatedly pleaded with
                    Chen to tone down because Chen's actions are not in the
                    interest of the United States.
                    \_ It's just a matter of time.  One day China will be
                       strong enough to go for it.  Taiwan can't do a thing to
                       stop that.  When that day comes the US can defend or not
                       defend Taiwan.  If the US chooses to defend Taiwan then
                       pray the Chinese have underestimated US navy power.  If
                       the US backs down it is the end of US super power status
                       and the start of another 50 year cold war the whole
                       world will suffer through.
                       \_ Last two posters, will you please speak in specifics?
                          "One day China will be strong enough to go for it".
                          I could just as easily say:  One day China will
                          have a democratic revolution, and Taiwan will join
                          China's democracy once everything has settled down.
                          Both seem equally believable to me, especially since
                          China is *vastly* outclassed by U.S. naval and
                          air power, and the U.S. will make a good effort
                          to keep up its military superiority if China
                          advances far enough.
                          \_ Specifically, "go for it" = "invade".  You could
                             just as easily say your butt is made of green
                             cheese (just like the moon), but it is not equally
                             likely.  If you find the cheese theory and the
                             China invasion theory equally believable then I've
                             got a bridge in Florida to sell you.  China doesnt
                             have to have a better navy/af.  They only have to
                             be superior in the local region.  If they can
                             pull a fast one and cripple local US navy forces
                             and put a few 10s of thousands of men on Taiwan
                             before US reinforcements can show up they've won.
                             There will be some bogus peace treaty signed and
                             Taiwan will vanish into the history books as a
                             minor blurb in some grey side panel box.
                          \_ Die hard Taiwan independence supporters doesn't
                             care whether China becomes democratic or not.
                             They want independence at all cost.  They are
                             driven in a large part by past hatred rather
                             than a vision for the future.
                             \_ Quick question, what's wrong with wanting
                                independence for its own sake?  -- ilyas
                                \_ Exactly.  I'm with you on that one.
                                \_ look, if you can magically turn china
                                   into a brunei, then go ahead with
                                   independence with my full support.
                                   Unlike freedoms or democracy, which
                                   is by nature good, political
                                   independence is neutral in itself.
                                   Its merits is dependent on how well it
                                   will work for the people in practice.
                       \_ China will never be militarily stronger than the
                          US.  The problem is, it doesn't need to be.  It
                          can totally screw up Taiwan's economic livelihood
                          without firing a shot.  Stop trolling.
                          \_ Never?  Ever?  History is full of dead and
                             defeated super powers that would rule the world
                             *forever* or so they thought.  No one on this
                             thread is trolling.  Some of us simply disagree
                             with you.  That is *not* trolling.  You want
                             trolls?  There are plenty of trolls on the other
                             motd threads right now, but not here.
                             \_ Except that the world is now just a big
                                village.  And in a small contained
                                world, once one party attains the upper
                                hand, it will only get stronger and
                                stronger.
2004/3/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12914 Activity:kinda low
3/29    So I just got back from Taiwan.  You know nearly all TV news stations
        are controlled by the opposition party (the same coverage being beamed
        into the Bay Area)?  It's no wonder you have all these people
        frothing at the mouth.  I'm ashamed to think that most Taiwanese
        people are stupid enough to believe the faked assassination theory.
        They just can't believe that their party lost, and they're annoyed
        at their stock holdings taking hits during Chen's presidency.  Lien
        beat his wife in grad school, his wife lies about it on TV, the
        opposition party has suggested that Chen's wife's accident in 1985
        was staged as well, and the opposition party is synonymous with
        corruption, vote buying, and organized crime.
        \_ huh? Lien is bad so Chen must be good?  What is your superior
           source of information?  I'm an American, trying to follow this
           in the English-speaking international press and I'm curious why
           you're so sure that the conspiracy theories about Chen are
           false, even if Lien is totally evil.
           \_ Dude, where do I say "Lien is bad so Chen must be good"?
              Re the assassination attempt, obGoogle for details, and think
              about how it could have been staged, and everything necessary
              for that.   Anyway, obGoogle for these keywords in various
              combinations:  KMT controlled television stations vote-buying
              organized crime 2/28.  You will find links to books too.
              Also, if you go to http://news.yahoo.com and search for
              Taiwan, you will see a story on a U.S. investigation into the
              shooting and the preliminary opinion.
        \_ So I just got back from America.  You know nearly all TV news
           stations are controlled by the Democratic Party?  It's no wonder
           you have all these people frothing at the mouth.  I'm ashamed to
           think that most American people are stupid enough to believe the
           Florida vote fixing theory.  They just can't believe that their
           party lost, and they're annoyed at their stock holdings taking
           hits during the Dot Boom.
           \_ People love a conspiracy.  The most ridiculous the better and
              more frothy the better.
           \_ The KMT has controlled Taiwan ever since it was transferred
              from Japanese control in 1945, until in 2000 when Chen won.
              The KMT has > 50% ownership in the three major TV news stations.
              As for Florida vote-fixing, it was decided by the Supreme Court,
              which was a first for a Presidential election.
        \_ I'm sure there'd be just as much outrage if the "opposition" party
           (isn't that a nice name) won, given the number of pro-independent
           Taiwan people around.  People just hate any sense of impropriety
           in important things like presidential elections
           \_ If the KMT had won, the DPP would be complaining about KMT vote-
              buying, which would be a respectable position.  Now that the
              DPP has won, the pro-KMT are complaining about a faked
              assassination, which is pretty damned dumb position to take.
              Like I said, it's the effect of KMT control of TV news, and
              people being upset about their stock holdings and their candidate
              suddenly losing when they thought they would win.
              \_ it's not *only* the faked assassination, from what I've been
                 reading.  I could care less about that part.
                 \_ So what do you care about?
              \_ The KMT is now (inexplicably) for reunification with the PRC.
                 How is this strange reversal in their position being viewed,
                 and are they getting any help/support from the PRC?
                 \_ The KMT has *not* been for reunification with the PRC
                    as of the 2004 election year.  This equals political
                    suicide.
                    \_ Okay, so the KMT has just been Independence-neutral?
                       Is that why the PRC has been favoring them?
                       \_ The KMT is for direct trade links / better business
                          with China, and has indicated more flexibility
                          on the independence issue than the DPP.
        \_ Taiwan President Chen is like Chavez of Venezuela.  He is a
           demagogue.  Very dangerous person.  He likes to play divisive
           politics pitching taiwanese against people who came from mainland
           China in 1949 with the KMT.              - tainan taiwanese
           \_ The KMT is just plain bad.  Refresh your memory on the 2/28
              incident, and more recent stuff on vote-buying and organized
              crime links.  You may be watching too much KMT-controlled TV.
              As for China, China is bad too, in case you need reminding.
        \_ If Lien can't even out smart and out maneuver Chen in this election,
           how can the public trust him in representing taiwan in negotiations
           with PRC?  Lien is responsible for the downfall of KMT.
           A bian, A bian, Go Go Go.
2004/3/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:12784 Activity:high
3/21    the motd stuff about Taiwan was pretty interesting,
        which csua-Chinese-nationalist deleted it?
        \_ No, some asshole deleted a part of the thread, so the entire thing
           was nuked in retaliation.  Nothing to do with Taiwan, it was
           motd pettiness all the way.
        \_ You named the wrong nationalist.
        \_ [ chicom troll will be deleted on sight from now on. ]
           \_ [ that and the broken english ]
           \_ good. you've illustrated my point.  DPP rigged the election
              and anyone who doesn't agree is labeled as "chicom"
           \_ Congratulations, junior, you have the power to label anyone
              chicom and obliterate their posts.  Power to you.
        \_ I was the last one posting on that thread before it got killed by
           someone who couldn't take criticism of DPP.  I thought of restoring
           it but then  remembered it's just the motd.  You can look it up in
           the archive.
2004/3/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12649 Activity:nil
3/12    So Taiwan seems to be a pretty developed country, why is it still
        considered a third world country?
        \_ state your source.
        \_ because they are not yet white and the quota for nonwhite is 1.
           \_ idiot, why do you even bother wasting bits with your racist
              hateful shit?
           \_ did you really go to cal?
        \_ because they don't have the political, economic, military, or
           diplomatic power to be considered a major power.
           \_ don't forget the congressional brawls.
              \_ hey, we've got them too now! - random Korean guy
        \_ Taiwan is *NOT* a developed region,  not even close.  For one thing
           Taiwan is lack of rule of law.  This is a major issue which most
           American has overlooked because it is not as cachy as "democracy"
           and "human right" etc et.  Mind you that rule of law is the
           fundamental building block of democratic government, and a democracy
           without rule of law is actually in many ways more chaotic than
           dictatorial form of government.  Things you have taken for granted,
           such as (relatively) independent judicial branch does not exist
           here.  Law enforcement is selective, tend to be charged with either
           political motive or influenced by bribe.

           Infrasture wise, when you step out of Taipei, you will find that
           Taiwan is still pretty damn underdeveloped.

           Even in Taipei City... give you an example, the waste water
           treatment plant just went online recently.  Can you imagine a city
           of 1.7 million live on local septic tanks?

           Lastly, Taiwan is not a country.  The Constitution of Republic
           of China state that Taiwan is part of China and the constitution
           is designed for entire China in mind.  Read them if you can actually
           read Chinese.
           \_ I like that argument for the annexation of Taiwan.  "Our
              Constitution says so!"  If only the Germans had amended
              their Constitution to say Austria, Poland, the Low Lands,
              France, etc. were a part of the Reich, there wouldn't have been
              a problem!  And before you bring this up, most of those
              territories (along with Spain) were in fact Hapsburg possessions,
              and part of the Holy Roman Empire at one point or another.
                -- ilyas
              \_ Haha, there may be problems in his argument, but not the one
                 you are dwelling on.  He was referrring the consistituion of
                 ROC (i.e. taiwan), which claims it to be part of China.  You
                 made fun of yourself, again.
                 \_ Ok.  Show me where:
                    http://www.taiwandocuments.org/constitution01.htm
                      -- ilyas
                   \_ I don't have to.  I don't care about taiwan or china or
                      roman empire.  I just saw you misread another post in
                      such an obvious way and went ahead pouring your vast
                      "intelligence."  You should ask the guy to whom you
                      original replied to show that and thank me for helping
                      with your reading comprehension.
                      \_ I don't know.  Are you sure you schooled me?
                         Taiwanese constitution doesn't say (or at least
                         I couldn't find anything about this) "Taiwan" is a
                         part of "China".  It was merely a non-communist
                         constitution which was meant to apply to all of
                         china once the nationalists won.  They never did,
                         and it applies to a small island instead.  If you
                         really want your 10 motd points, you can have them,
                         however. -- ilyas
                         \_ The constitution specifically said that no one
                            allowed to alter the soverign territory of
                            the Republic of China, and at the time, the
                            constitution covers entire chinese mainland.
                            and this claus of contitution still exists.
                                - someone who actually can read chinese
                                  and read the damn constitution, unlike ilyas
                         \_ It has nothing to do with what any constitution
                            says, but has everything to do with the carrier
                            we want to buy from ebay for you.  I donate the
                            10 points toward its purchase.
                            \_ Tell you what.  How about I spare you the
                               trouble of replying to me in the future.  I am
                               nothing but a stuck-up, stupid, rabidly
                               libertarian, selfish, blind, easily offended,
                               unattractive, smelly, kooky, ridiculous,
                               no life loser with the attention span and
                               reading comprehension abilities of a 10
                               year old.  I should fuck off and die like my
                               libertarian ilk, and keep my rabid
                               politico-sexual fantasies to myself.  Can we
                               just agree on that?  I default on all the motd
                               points.  Any future argument between us you win
                               automatically.  I accept any remotely clever
                               jokes you make at my expense in advance.  I
                               surrender unconditionally.  -- ilyas
                               \_ You're not allowed to.  Sorry, but you lose
                                  on losing, too.  That's impressive!
           \_ Yes, outside of the big cities, there are people living
              at shocking levels of poverty.  It's really quite
              frightening, and the gov. seems uninterested in changing
              anything.
              \_ When I swang by the mainland China, I was shocked by the
                 difference in standard of living between the city and
                 the country side (and I didn't even wonder off to any
                 really poor country side neither).   For a moment, I thought
                 Taiwan is much better in this regard.  Then, I realize
                 that I *RARELY* step outside the Taipei city.
                 \_ just because you rarely see outside of taipei doesn't mean
                    taiwan is full of countrysides with poor rural bumpkins.
                    taiwan is much better in this regard.
                    \_ I don't dispute that.  However, Taiwan is much smaller
                       and at least in my view should of done a better job
                       closing the gap between the country side and the city
                       than what is on the table right now.
           \_ I am not very familiar with Taiwan's government system,
              but are you sure about your claim that Taiwan does not
              have an independent judiciary branch?  Can you back it
              up?  I read a book or two by Li3 Ao2, and even under
              KMT rule (under CCG, I presume?), which he sharply criticized,
              he was able to win case after case in the courts.  That
              would be unthinkable in say, commie China.
              \_ I am sure, because I live in TW right now and I have heard
                 enough share of horror stories, to a point that I had to
                 constantly remind myself that this is not the way things
                 suppose to work.  The supreme court, for example, is extremely
                 weak and they are subject to president's political pressue.
                 This is one of the reason why nobody ever bother to ask the
                 supreme court to interpret the legality of laws and the
                 referendum conducted solely by the president right now.
                 The prosecutor general is essentially a servant of the
                 president.  Those who doesn't cooperate, including judges
                 and people on the prosecution team, gets rotated out of the
                 trial while the trial is in progress.
        \_ When I was in Singapore, I remember once where some international
           organization reclassified Singapore as a developed nation.
           The local government controlled media started trumpeting the
           achievement all over the place.  Then PM Lee Kuan Yew spoke up
           and says Singapore is still a third world country.  Lee Kuan
           Yew is smart because one still gets some advantages (trade,
           loan, etc.) by being a third world country in name.  The
           government controlled media then did a full reverse course
           and started pumping out articles on why Singapore is not yet
           a developed nation.  It was kind of funny.
           \_ Funny in the way that government controlled media is funny.
                \_ pray tell us how else could it have been funny?
                   \_ exactly my point.
        \_ Guys, you shouldn't compare everything with US.  America is an
           exceptional country, one which is founded on a sound principle
           and evolve along a sound trajectory, has always had an unbiased
           judiciary and a functining democracy.  If you have to measure
           against the US, then no other country is developed.
           \_ blah blah america is bad, the worlds problems are all our fault
              and if it wasnt for america the world would be utopia, so lets
              just raise taxes, slash the military to ribbons and pay off the
              rest of the world to like us because their liking is us is so
              important as if international politics was a playground game
2004/3/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12582 Activity:nil
3/9     Read businessweek online issue on 'china.net'.  Lots of stories on
        internet activities in china.  Anybody thinking of moving back to
        china or taiwan to start companies?  I've been thinking about going
        back to TW to start an online gaming company.  DSL penetration is
        pretty high.
        \_ let me know if you do please!        -brain
        \_ in the same vein (is there a latin term for that expression?),
           does anyone have any Indian tech connections? I have an idea for
           outsourcing (not HiTech related) to India but don't have the
           connections.
           \_ mail me.  - rory
        \_ "Online gaming company", you mean developing online games, or what?
           \_ I think he means online sex chat
              \_ No wonder DSL penetration is so important!
                 \_ I would think penetration not important for online sex.
           \_ He said "gaming" which is gambling, not "game".
        \_ An ex-boss went there 2 years ago.  He has a company, website, etc,
           but I don't think he has final product or beta customer 1.
        \_ I wanna make the China version of Yahoo Maps / Mapquest.
           Anyone here has any experience?  eg. Worked at Navtech?
           We can start with like Beijing and move on from there.
           \_ Do people there really have a need for a service like that?
              \_ I am sure there is.  Hwy system and car ownership are
                 exploding.  Biggest problem is probably that the road
                 system is changing and expanding too fast.
           \_ Instead of driving direction from pt A to pt B, you can provide
              transit directions from pt A to pt B.  --- yuen
           \_ In Taiwan right now, and talked to friends from the mainland
              regards to LBS service.  The main issue is that, unlike USA,
              which essentially gave out GIS map of entire country for free
              (TIGER db), in both mainland China and Taiwan, GIS Maps has to be
              purchased.  I am less familiar with what is going on in the
              mainland, but in Taiwan, first, the government actually holds
              copyright on these maps, secondly, the government impose a very
              restrictive license on how the map can be used, and charge a
              very handsome sum for "value-added redistribution."
              Second issue is less difficult.  There is simply no good Chinese
              parser out there to tokenize addresses.

              In taiwan, life get even more complicated because maps are
              controlled by several different government agencies.

              The main obsticle is that Chinese people on both strait treat
              map as some sort of military secret, and very reluctant to
              release them to civilian use.

              If you are interested in this kind of things, email me, as I
              am in the process of getting street maps of Taipei to play
              with (which going to cost me $150 USD just for personal use).
                                        -kngharv
              \_ You mean in Taiwan tourists can't buy somthing like "Map of
                 Taipei" at a bookstore for a few bucks?
              \_ I don't get the tokenize address part.  Just let the
                 user enter the address as seperate fields.  Take my
                 aunt's address (using commie romanization):
                 tai2 bei3 (taipei city), xin1 dian4 (subdivision), zhong1
                 zheng4 lu4 (road), wu3 hao4 (number)
                 If they write it all together, sure, but if it's entered
                 in seperate fields or with a delimiter, I don't see
                 what's the difficulty.
2004/2/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12344 Activity:nil
2/21    For any of you folks following the Taiwan elections:
        http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=7895
        \_ time for mr chen to go.
           \_ you one of those mainland freaks who thinks taiwan is part of
              the mainland?
              \_ no, I am a tainan taiwanese, what are you?
2004/1/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12009 Activity:high
1/29    Boom! Whale explodes in Taiwan!
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4096586
        \_ "What a stinking mess" :) funny..
           \_ "Once moved to a nearby nature preserve, the male specimen...
               drew the attention of locals because of its large penis,
               measured at some five feet...." Those wacky Taiwanese.
               \_ "More than 100 Tainan city residents, mostly men, have
                   reportedly gone to see the corpse to 'experience' the
                   size of its penis," the newspaper reported.
        \_ http://csua.org/u/5rs
        \_ This is bizarre.   - tainan taiwanese
2003/12/9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:11368 Activity:low
12/9    I can understand why china doesn't want taiwan to be independent.
        But what i don't understand is why they're so worked up about
        the proposed reffurendum in taiwan, given that for all practical
        purposes taiwan *is* independent.  is it just a pride thing?
        if taiwan already has an independently elected government, an
        independent armed forces and pays no taxes to the mainland
        what the hell difference does it make to beijing what they
        claim in some vote?
        \_ http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&e=3&u=/ap/20031209/ap_on_re_as/us_china
           Bush publicly opposes independence. So much for independence.
           \_ Support for an Independent Taiwan was the only positive thing I
              saw in the Bush Administration.  And now that's gone, too.
              Jayzus H. Keerist, can no one see what a whore this man is?
        \_ one China one Nation.
           \_ I read in "Guns Germs and Steel" that one factor that held up
              China from developing into a world power pre-1492 was that it
              was a single political entity at the whims of the emperor.  i.e.
              They had a world class fleet they could have used to dominate
              with but they just decided to do away with it, as the result
              of a political struggle between factions in the imperial court.
        \_ I'm a little curious too.  I think it's about saving face.  Right
           now they can say "We're China, and there is one rebellious province"
           If there's too much talk of independance, it rubs their nose in the
           fact that the civil war was really fought to an impasse, and the
           communist revolutionaries didn't totally win.
        \_ one word: communism. "Taiwan has all the goodies, and we want
           them too."
        \_ China is all about stability.  They rule by the atmosphere of
           "if you stick out, we'll stomp you".  They'll roll over college
           students with a tank, and have no problem shooting live rounds.
           Do you have a problem?  Then you belong in a Chinese prison for
           20 years as a political prisoner.
           If China lets Taiwan become independent, it fears that its own
           citizens will get ideas.
           \_ what do you think the US will do if our civil war didn't end
              the way it did? Do you think if California decides to become
              independent (I don't see why not since we are not getting any
              fucking shit from the federal government), everything will
              go smoothly? It's not about saving face. It's about national
              unity, a concept you obviously don't understand. They wouldn't
              have cared less if Taiwan is rich or poor.
              \_ China *had* national unity before Mao.
                 \_ read a fucking history book.
                    \_ United Front
              \_ What you're saying falls under what I wrote.
        \_ Who's the douchey douchebag that keeps deleting this thread?
           \_ Heh, I've only deleted it once.  - troll-recognizer whose
                                                 comment got deleted
              \_ it was not intended as a troll, it was intended to generate
                 interesting discussion, which it did(along with the usual
                 flames).  go fuck yourself. -op
                 \_ Whatever.  Delete me, I'll delete you.

        \_ It's easy. There must be one great Communist Nation to combat the
           evil greedy infidels of the Capitalistic BushReich!
2003/11/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29643 Activity:nil
11/19   China to attack Taiwan:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031119/ap_on_re_as/china_taiwan_5
2003/11/16 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Recreation/Shopping] UID:11098 Activity:nil
11/16   http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/11/14/2003075781
        Gigolo school raided by police.
2003/10/21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29583 Activity:insanely high
10/20   Informal troll:
        1) Taiwan is a renegade of China and should be integrated into
           the great China ASAP
        2) Taiwan should be independent
        3) Taiwan should restore the old Republic and reestablish
           democracy in the mainland.
        Vote now:
        1: ..
          \_ Which of you idiots is advocating the enslavement of
             a country lucky enough to be free of a corrupt communist
             regime, which gave the world such nice things as
             Tienenmin (sp) Square?
        2: .
        3: ...
        \_ Is this poll about what I want to happen, or what I think is
           feasible without going to war, or what I think is most likely to
           happen?
        1: ..
          \_ Which of you idiots is advocating the enslavement of
             a country lucky enough to be free of a corrupt communist
             regime, which gave the world such nice things as
             Tienenmin (sp) Square?
             \_ Tian An Men = Gate of Heavenly Peace.
        2: .
        3: ...
        4: ..
        \_ to OP:  I presume you are a student from Taiwan who left
           Taiwan long time ago.  You might want to take a closer look
           at Taiwan today and see how economically dependent it is
           to the motherland.  The high political charge/emotions lead
           by President Lee no longer strike a chord to the majority of
           people, as they are now plagued by unemployments.  If you are
           looking for stragetic independence, then, I can tell you that
           it is impossible simply because Taiwan is 100 miles off the
           coast of the mainland.  If you are looking for economic
           independence, well, President Lee tried to persuate business
           communities invest in Indonisia and Cambodia instead in the past,
           and I don't know if you realize how diseasterous it was.
           If you are looking for political independence, well, Taiwan
           has never being ruled by the CCP.  What more do you want when
           you are already extracting  all the economic benefit of the
           mainland while not
           being rule by its draconian government?  The smartest thing
           Taiwan can do is simply keep it mouth shut and wait and see.
           If the mainland turned out to be ok economically and politically,
           then, what is wrong with return to the motherland?  If mainland
           imploded, then, you don't need even to do much to be independent.
                \_ When I grew up in 1980 I was taught to fight the
                   communist and take back China. I even remember the
                   anti-communist songs we sang back elementary school
                   (starting in 3rd grade). It's pretty funny now that I
                   think about it. How could tiny little Taiwan fight the
                   communists and take back its motherland? Har har. Oh well.
                                -Taiwanese who grew up there in the 80s
                   \_ Yea, but at least Taiwan outlasted communism in
                      PRC, and is instrumental in prodding PRC towards
                      greedy capitalism.  Unfortunately, Taiwan isn't
                      setting a very good example as a democracy, with
                      Lee and Chen playing divisive politics.
                   \_ It becomes a problem if there is a pro-Democracy
                      revolution in China.  But the higher ups really will
                      try their best to prevent that from happening ...
           \_ Improve English first lah.  I presume you are from PRC?
        \_ Taiwan will never become a part of China until China becomes a
           democracy.  This is very, very likely.  No one wants a shooting
           war.  It's all posturing.  What do I mean by posturing?  Look
           at all the votes for 3.  This is a game mostly about China being
           able to say it's boss -- stability is China's number one priority.
        \_ About 4:  I think it's possible, and you might see it in your
           lifetime.  Wait 20 years.
           \_ 4 sounds good to me.  I consider that a victory for
              Taiwan    - tainan taiwanese.
              \_ and a victory for the united states, south korea, japan,
                 russia, one billion chinese, and basically everyone
                 else in the world except North Korea.
                 \_ don't forget those who want TI at all cost, and
                    perhaps some US right wingers.
2003/9/29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10358 Activity:moderate
9/29    When we send something through the mail to another country, what
        incentive do the other countries have to deliver it? In other
        words, when we send domestic mail, we pay postage to the USPS,
        but what happens with international mail? Do the countries
        have some sort of agreement set up to pay each other?
        \_ http://www.upu.int/index.html  -John
           \_ it took a little digging, but that site turned out to be
              immensely useful.  thanks.  -!op
              \_ URLp?
              \_ yeah, could you please specify where you found the info?
                 At the top level, it's mostly fluff, and doesn't give
                 much insight...
                 \_ Ever hear of a faq? -nivra
                    http://www.upu.int/faq/en/index.html#19
           \_ http://www.upu.int/members/en/members.html  Funny. Taiwan
              isn't listed as a member.  How does mail get delivered there?
              -nivra
              \_ Magic fairy doves!
                 \_ Evil capitalist fairy doves
                    \_ Mail delivery has little to do with capitalism.
                \_ Falun Gong couriers!
2003/8/13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29328 Activity:insanely high
8/12    New Red Missile Armed With U.S. Technology
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/962996/posts
        \_ So are you really a Right Wing Kook or are you a liberal
           who is trying to make the Right look bad by posting these
           nutty Right Wing conspiracy posts?
                \_ So its nutty to post excerpts from DOD papers?
                   Interesting.
                   \_ It is *seriously* nutty to think that that diatribe
                      was a DoD paper. Do you know what "snip" means?
        \_ Stop selling us poor Taiwanese outdated Kidd class
           destroyers at exorbitant prices.  Tell president
           Bush to sell us some Aegis destroyers, so we can
           help US fight PRC to the last Taiwanese.
                \_ I wish the administration would.
           \_ You don't live in Taiwan, I am.  I can tell you straight
              out that people 1/4 of people in Taiwan probably will
              welcome the PLA with open arm.  1/2 of them won't care.
              Most, and I mean *MOST*  of established Taiwan company
              will move their headquarter to Shanghai or Beijing.
              The rest of so called pro-Taiwan-Independent fanatic will
              run for their lives.  Only HANDFUL of people will be
              fight until the bitter end.
              If you TRUELY care about Taiwan's self termination, then,
              You should first cut the dependence on all foreign power,
              including USA, including Japan.  Then, You should move your
              sorry ass to this island and *YOU* should fight to the last
              blood.   Don't ask *OTHER* people to sacrafise their lives
              for *YOUR* political ideology.
              \_ You must be commie idiot.  No Taiwanese, blue green or
                 red, would welcome PLA, and the only reason Taiwan is dependent
                 on foreign power is because PRC is threatening Taiwan.
                 Besides what you call "dependence" is in fact a symbiotic
                 relationship.
                 \_ The 3rd color is Yellow, get your politic straight.
                    Taiwan can never achieve self termination if it depends
                    upon foreign power.  Further, situation in Taiwan is
                    complicated.  The biggest threat from PRC is *NOT*
                    its 2 million strong army nor its ballistic missles.
                    Rather, it's their massive cheap labors *AND* fast
                    rising companies which compete in the same turf as
                    Taiwan's traditional stronghold.  Further, rather you
                    like it or not, Taiwan's economy is depend upon the
                    mainland.  That is why with exception of few fanatic
                    like you, most of people in Taiwan see mainland more
                    of an opportunity than threat.
2003/8/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29260 Activity:nil
8/6     > ping http://journalism.berkeley.edu
        ping: cannot resolve http://journalism.berkeley.edu: Unknown host
        Some people should not be allowed near the DNS zone files.
        \_ Journalism is practiced at Cal??
           \_ Only the yellow kind.
              \_ Isn't that why everything is named after Hearst?
                 \_ No.  Everything is named after Heart because their family
                    donated a shitload of money without which Berkeley wouldn't
                    exist as it does today if at all.
                    \_ William and Phoebe are nice people, but who the heck
                       is Tan Kah Kee?
2003/7/31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29189 Activity:very high
7/30    Pentagon: China Aiming Missiles at Taiwan
        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20030730/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_china_military_2
        \_ China has been aiming missiles at Taiwan since they got their first
           missile.  This isn't news.  It also isn't news that they're going
           to invade as soon as they think they can pull it off.
           \_ China won't invade.  They'll consider it if Taiwan has a
              sovereignty referendum.  The U.S. will prevent Taiwan from doing
              that.  The U.S. and China both prefer the status quo.
              \_ Put another democrat in office and they will if they feel they
                 have the military might to do it.  China sure as hell does not
                 prefer the status quo.  It's a humiliation and international
                 embarassment.
                 \_ Laughably untrue.  PRC gets a lot of money in transfers
                    from Taiwan.  It's not worth their while to kill the
                    goose that lays the golden egg.  If the Brits hadn't
                    made their silly 99-year lease deal, PRC would not have
                    annexed Hong Kong either, for the same reasons.  Let's
                    face it:  PRC puts on a good show of pushing a state-run
                    economy, but they prefer the riches that capitalist
                    throat-cutting brings in.
                    \_ you have no clue don't you?
                    \_ contrary to what you may think, the Brits had no
                       choice. Just like how they lost most of their
                          \_ evil is what evil speaks.
                       colonies.
                       \_ those f***ing brits have yet to paid for their
                          crime for colonizing half of the globe. fuck them!
                 \_ IMO, Taiwan is the rebellious child that China can
                    smack around when it gets tired of anti-U.S. propaganda.
                    I don't see the Taiwan issue as very humiliating for China,
                    especially when so many companies continue to move
                    operations from Taiwan to China.
                    \_ agree, and I am from Taiwan.
                    \_ For the cheap labor, not their technical expertise or
                       management ability.  The mainland is being used as the
                       third world country that it is.
                       \_ how do you breathe with your head in the sand?
                          don't you get sand in your snorkel?
                       \_ I'm just waiting for their brand spanking new dam
                          to break, killing millions (they've already been
                          reports of shoddy worksmanship on the project)
                          \_ evil is what evil speaks. -dubya
                          \_ you know, you really should shut up or you really
                             expose your ignorance on this subject.  The
                             mainland has techno-superiority over Taiwan
                             in many ways.
                             \_ In exactly what way did I imply any techno
                                comparison of China with Taiwan? Maybe you
                                should try rereading my post before arguing
                                with a point that is nonexistent.
                  \_ insufficient heavy lift/transport to hold the island b4
                     forces from the 7th fleet repel the invasion
                  \_ I heard even Australian navy can beat PRC navy.
                     \_ you've heard many things my child.
                        \_ Actually the guy is right.  PRC navy is inferior
                           to Australia's.  They only have a chance if it
                           is close to China's coast such that China's
                           air force and land-based missiles can play
                           a role.
                           \_ so how exactly is B*** admin going to hype
                              up the China threat thing again??
2003/5/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:28483 Activity:high 75%like:28476
5/18    Fighting Censorship:  Thread Restored
        Taiwan has been accepted into WHO as an "Health Entity."
        Congrats Taiwan!
        \_ That's like the WHO accepting Alabama.  Taiwan is an illegal
           entity that is an indivisible part of the PRC.
           \_ ignore those Taiwan's child play.  People in Taiwan are dying,
              Ministry of Health is stockpiling tens of million of N95
              masks and refused to distributed to hospitals.  Infection is
              out of control as one hospital after another show cases of
              cross-infection.  Instead of trying to fix the disease,
              Taiwan is playing politics...  The really funny part is,
              Taiwan is ALREADY in WHO (as Province of China).  I really
              don't know what is the big fuss is all about.
                                -- reporting from Taiwan
              \_ If you really don't know what the fuss is about, then
                 you need to brush up on your history.  Cf. Chiang-Kai
                 Sheck, Kuomintang, the airlift from the mainland after
                 WW2, and recent election of a pro-independence President.
           \_ I didn't know there were any mainlanders here.  I thought most
              of the ethnic chinese here were from Taiwan, HK, or SG.
              Identify yourself!
                \_ What is SG?
                   \_ Singapore, also known as Singapura.  Singa is from
                      Singh, an Indian / Sikh word meaning "lion".
                      Thus Singaore is also known as "lion city".
           \_ The US is an illegal entity that is an indivisible part of
              the British Crown.
                \_ British Crown recognized US's independence long ago.
                   Pull your head out of your ass.
           \_ if it was indivisible it couldn't have been divided.
              \_ Your family will be sent a bill for the bullet.
           \_ Nah, Taiwan declared independence and the establishment of
                    declaration of independence
              the Taiwan Democratic Republic in 1895.
              \_ which is as legitimate as the Manchuguo in North East China
                 \_ People of Taiwan were betrayed and disowned by
                    China to the Japanese in 1895.  Of course the
                    declaration of independence is legitimate, or
                    are you saying Taiwan should belong to Japan?
                    \_ the independence was out of desperation as China
                       signed the shameful treaty, which 1. no one ever
                       recognized, and 2. if you ever read history, people
                       fought bravely resist Japanese's rule.  It caused
                       so much casuaty that Japan resort using naval
                       bombardment to whipe out the resistance; a
                       Sharp contrast of what people in Taiwan is doing
                       today, which trying hard kissing USA's butt-hole
                       hoping US will do something for your cause.  And
                       if you look at USA's track record, you would know
                       that Taiwan is just a bargain chip which USA will
                       give up if China is willing to pay the price.
                       \_ After betraying and disowning Taiwan for
                          50 years, Chinese came to Taiwan and promptly
                          butchered tens of thousands of Taiwanese
                          in 1947.  Furthermore, in the following
                          decades, China butchered tens of millions of
                          its own people.  Sorry, but the people of
                          Taiwan has every right to declare independence.
                          We don't owe China anything.  US is a friend
                          and trading partner of Taiwan.  No US
                          administration would survive the loss of
                          Taiwan to a PRC invasion.  I am personally
                          not an advocate for Taiwan independence
                          because I still have some affinity for
                          China, and hope that it would continue to
                          change for the better, but please don't
                          give me bullshit like "Taiwan ... is an
                          indivisible part of the PRC".
        \_ Taiwan is as valuable to the US imperialism as Israel. Just as
           Israel distablizes the middle-east, Taiwan distablizes the
           Far East.
           \_ Hegemon!  The DNC fax said "Hegemon!"  We don't use "Imperialism"
              anymore, idiot!  That was last year!  Fucking aye!  Get it
              together!
           \_ destabilize .. learn engrish first lah. without taiwan and
              US investments, prc still in stone age.
           \_ Stability?  Yes, nothing should change.  Bad things such as the
              nightmare that is the Arab controlled middle east should always
              be that way because... well.. uhm... it's stable!  Yeah, stable!
              That's the ticket!  I'm glad you're here on the motd and not
              the State Department where you might be doing real harm to the
              country and maybe the world.
        \_ I claim legal dictatorship over the entire planet.  You are
           all my property.  Start obeying my commands at once or I will
           demand that the WHO eject you. --SupremeDictatorForLife
           \_ Infidel!  There is one true ruler.  All Hail Joe!!  Hail Joe!!!
              http://members.tripod.com/mightyjoe/news.html
              be sure to watch the "call to action" video.
           \_ I think Belgium has a pre-existing claim of planetary wide
              control over the world's legal system.
2003/5/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:28476 Activity:insanely high 75%like:28483
5/18    Taiwan has been accepted into WHO as an "Health Entity."
        Congrats Taiwan!
        \_ That's like the WHO accepting Alabama.  Taiwan is an illegal
           entity that is an indivisible part of the PRC.
           \_ ignore those Taiwan's child play.  People in Taiwan are dying,
              Ministry of Health is stockpiling tens of million of N95
              masks and refused to distributed to hospitals.  Infection is
              out of control as one hospital after another show cases of
              cross-infection.  Instead of trying to fix the disease,
                      Singh, an Indian / Sikh last name meaning "lion".
              Taiwan is playing politics...  The really funny part is,
              Taiwan is ALREADY in WHO (as Province of China).  I really
              don't know what is the big fuss is all about.
                                -- reporting from Taiwan
           \_ I didn't know there were any mainlanders here.  I thought most
              of the ethnic chinese here were from Taiwan, HK, or SG.
              Identify yourself!
                \_ What is SG?
                   \_ Singapore, also known as Singapura.  Singa is from
                      Singh, an Indian / Sikh word meaning "lion".
                      Thus Singaore is also known as "lion city".
              \_ from Taiwan.  Don't like Communist government as much as
                 many of those from the mainland, but strongly believe
                 Taiwan is as inseperatable as California part of USA.
           \_ The US is an illegal entity that is an indivisible part of
              the British Crown.
                \_ British Crown recognized US's independence long ago.
                   Pull your head out of your ass.
           \_ if it was indivisible it couldn't have been divided.
           \_ Nah, Taiwan declared independence and the establishment of
              the Taiwan Democratic Republic in 1895.
              \_ which is as legitimate as the Manchuguo in North East China
        \_ Taiwan is as valuable to the US imperialism as Israel. Just as
           Israel distablizes the middle-east, Taiwan distablizes the
           Far East.
           \_ destabilize .. learn engrish first lah. without taiwan and
              US investments, prc still in stone age.
        \_ I claim legal dictatorship over the entire planet.  You are
           all my property.  Start obeying my commands at once or I will
           demand that the WHO eject you. --SupremeDictatorForLife
           \_ Infidel!  There is one true ruler.  All Hail Joe!!  Hail Joe!!!
              http://members.tripod.com/mightyjoe/news.html
              be sure to watch the "call to action" video.
2003/5/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Health/Disease/General] UID:28404 Activity:high
5/11    Please support Taiwan's bid to enter WHO.
        \_ Idoit.  Taiwan is already in th WHO... as province of China.
           People are dying here, health infrascture is over-burdened
           to the point of near collapsing.  Instead of trying to advance
           your political agenda, why don't you try to do something useful,
           such as mail medical supplies (masks, thermometers) to the island,
           and /or write a letter to  the central government tto pressure them
           to take some effective measures  to contain the spread of disease,
           however draconian it might be.  While you at it, why don't you
           pressure the government to allow journalist to visit the
           infected areas of the city.  The government is supressing the
           actual severity of the disease right now.
           \_ Given the stand-up job the PRC's done with SARS so far, it's
              in Taiwan's best interest to deal directly with the WHO-- AND
              get donations of medical supplies.  Don't pretend this is an
              either-or situation.
              \_ If you looked carefuly, Taiwan has been dealing with
                 WHO directly. And I am in Taiwan right now, I can tell you
                 not WHO, not GOD, but only Taiwan itself can contain the
                 disease.  All WHO can do is give out actuate information
                 and suggestion on what they should of done.  And if you
                 looked at how other country / region have successfully
                 dealing with disease:  Singapore, Beijing, Vietnam, Hong
                 Kong, all of them have taken draconian measures to limit
                 the movement of people.  That is what Taiwan need
                 right now.  Enter WHO as a soverign nation is a political
                 issue, and I can tell you right now because the
                 Administration in Taiwan is doing the samething you are
                 trying to do, i.e. advance Taiwan's political agenda
                 instead of dealing with the disease directly, people here
                 are suffering.
                 \_ Nothing you have said invalidates the induction of
                    Taiwan into the WHO.  I agree with you that the powers
                    that be in Taiwan need to focus more on helping their
                    people, but surely they have the resources to address
                    both agendae.
              \_ given its size, its population, and how backward their
                 medical infrastructure, China is doing a relatively good
                 job compare with Taiwan.
           \_ Doesn't Taiwan not recognize itself as a province of China?
            \_ this would be a wonderful time for the long lost
               province and the mother country to MERGE and form
               a superpowered new SARS hybrid and kill each other.
              \_ based upon its constitution, yes.

        \_ Is there really a hope that a bunch of anti-social Berkeley CS
           geeks could make a difference though?
           \_ Do what geeks always do: bitch and moan and maybe fire off an
              email, pat yourself on the back for thinking globablly, acting
              locally and forget about it until next time a fix of self-
              righteousness is needed.
2002/8/7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:25512 Activity:nil
8/7     Poll:
        Independent Taiwan: .
        One China, one nation:
        How about One China Under Taiwan:  .
        Asian chicks are hot: ..
2001/8/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Industry/Jobs] UID:22001 Activity:insanely high
8/4     In general, do people find a difference working for
        managers with different racial background?  Does the
        cultural/racial background of your supervisor affect
        how the team is run?
        \_ yes.  When i'm managed by a team of monkeys, they seem to just
           confuse techonolical facts by screaming loudly at meetings and
           throwing around feces.  Oh wait.. I guess there's not much diff.
        \_ fuck you, dude. you need to get a clue.
           \_ Relax the head.  It is a legitimate question, even if it's
              gotten your PC engine revving.  Different ethnicities often
           as fast as the blacks, are generally very quite, polite and
              translate into different cultural backgrounds, and thus, varying
              ways of dealing with other people, or with work, with hierarchy,
              etc.  -John
        \_ yes, I find that generally my black managers are very loud
           and crass... and my asian managers, though not able to run
           as fast as the blacks, are generally very quiet, polite and
           intelligent.
           \_ how true it is.
           \_ They're also astonishingly good at math.
           \_ They also frown upon people who arrive after 8 AM and
              leave before 8 PM and take an hour for lunch.
        \_ I find differences in all managers, regardless of race. I've
           had six managers, all caucasian, and they ranged from senile
           to intelligent, from hands-on to "I dunno what a function is",
           from socialable to introverted.
        \_ I think culture plays such a big role here. I've had Caucasian
           mgrs who are just absolutely great; maybe because they have such
           a cheerful personality that you can get along with them like
           buddies and they understand young people. Then I've also had a
           Taiwanese manager who's old-school who grunt when you leave work
           before 7 PM, who keep on raising the bar on you and so demanding
           that they really don't give a shit about your life outside work.
           No stereotype here, but old school hard working managers often
           expect their subordinates to do the same, regardless of race -jthoms
              \_ I've worked for asian, indian and caucasian managers and
                 I have to say that the caucasian managers were the best
                 of the bunch. They knew where their technical limits were
                 and they knew how to deal with personality problems and
                 how to defend thier team in meetings with higher ups.
                 I recieved larger option grants, bigger bonuses and better
                 equipment as rewards for a job well done under caucasian
                 managers than under the others. Asian and Indian managers
                 never wanted to reward or promote anyone, they were just
                 interested in covering thier own ass and getting as much
                 out of you for as little pay as possible.
                 The asian and indian managers never realized that if
                 you like the company and the work you don't have to be
                 forced to show up and work.
           \_ it's the horrid "Thou shalt suffer as I have suffered."
              philosophy. Very stupid. Very "lets reinvent the wheel".
           \_ They may influence how the team itself is built.
              I watch a manager in a "neighbouring" department hire
              programmers.... and strangely enough, 3 out of the 4 new
              hires all spoke cantonese. Pure coincidence that she was
              a cantonese-speaking chinese woman, eh?
                \_ not to stereotype or anything, but I hate Cantonese
                   workers. They have a high tendency to talk loudly and have
                   a high tendency to talk about stock market, BMW, dim-sum,
        \_ Best manager I ever had was a tall slender blonde woman --asian guy
                   so on and so forth. And they rarely mix well (read-- no
                   assimilation) with other Asian race. Say no to Cantonese,
           Once had a Taiwanese manager and he was cool, confident and
           good jokes, never grunted, probably atypical.  --asian guy
                   the bane and the embarrasement of the Chinese race.
                   \_ Where is cantonese spoken? Mainland? Taiwan? HK?
                      \_ guang dong provence, which is where guang zhou is.
                                guang zhou == canton
                        \_ the ones you see here are usually from Hong Kong.
                   \_ wtf are you talking about?  embarrassment of the Chinese
                      race?  I find southerners (cantonese) to be more friendly
                      and easy-going than stuck-up northerners.  northern food
                      sucks too. (and before you accuse me of being biased, one
                      of my parents is from the the north, and the other is
                      from the south.)
                   \_ I don't know what you mean about rarely mixing well.
                      Since most Cantonese had British education, their
                      English is usually pretty damn good.  I don't know what
                      the hell you mean about not mixxing well with other Asian
                      races.  Who DOES mix well, in Asia?
                      Yes, they tend to be on the materialistic side, but
                      seriously, how many in the bay area are not?  I can not
                      see how they would be any worse than say the Taiwanese.
                \_ This is common among all races.  Indians hire indians,
                   Vietnamese hire vietnamese.  This behavior is especially
                   promoted by referal bonuses.  If anything, my impression
                   was that the Cantonese seem the most equal opportunity
                   among the Asians.
                   \_ There are two type of indians, one who will hire only
                      other indians and the other who will hire anyone other
                      that indian. I have not found this phenomenon in other
                      cultures (except perhaps caucasian).
                      Anyway, as an Indian I tend to be reluctant to hire
                      other indians because I don't trust them to do a good
                      job.
        \_ Best manager I ever had was a tall slender blonde woman -- best
           support, best pay and bonuses and review and had sense of humor.
           Once had a Taiwanese manager and he was cool, confident, told
           good jokes, never grunted, probably atypical.  Had 3 male
           white bosses, all fine. Differences may be due to culture
           or background or the fact that white folks are used to being
           the rulers in command of their subordinates in American society
           whereas others are just struggling with no role models.
           Certainly, being a manager involves people-skills and being with
           people of like mind and background helps smooth things, but that
           does not mean it's anything more than a minor issues. You may even
           differences will help the project. And to be a good, valuable worker
           or manager nowadays, esp. with global corporations and customers,
           you need to learn to work w/ others. --asian guy
                \_ I'd love a tall, slender blonde woman too, but for
                   reasons other than you said...
                \_ is that you, my little lollipop.
2001/4/13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:20970 Activity:high
4/13    I've been reading some articles and papers about foreign
        policy and I ran across the assertion that Taiwan and HK
        have both invested heavily in the Mainland despite political
        rehtoric that denounces Communism etc. It seems that by
        purchasing HK and Taiwan goods we are indirectly helping
        the Mainland.
        I've been a long time supporter of arming Taiwan and HK,
        but given that they seem to care more for $s than freedom
        I'm revaluating that policy. Continuing to arm Taiwan without
        having them sever ties with communist china seems to be
        a bad policy. Perhaps we should deny them arms and support
        until they cut of thier economic ties with the Mainland.
        \_ You haven't been reading the right articles if you think arming
           HK is American policy.  As someone who *is* in favor of arming
           Taiwan, I'd prefer this sort of ignorant ranting troll didn't
           post.  OTOH, you may be well meaning and just ignorant, in which
           case I suggest you check out HK's current status vis-a-vis the
           mainland and come back to talk about arming HK.
        \_ what's this about arming HK? isn't HK owned by China?
           you wanted to arm China? or is this a joke i don't get?
           \_ Merely a rant by someone ignorant and stupid.
              Pay no mind.
              \_ Mind unpaid. Wonder when it will be deleted.
                 \_ It's anti-communist/left but clearly confused and stupid.
                    At best this is a strawman from the left.  I think this
                    will stay posted all day long.  A strong pro-Taiwan post
                    would be gone in minutes.  Standard motd censorship policy.
                    \_ Get the fuck over yourself.  If you're that concerned
                       about being heard, don't use the fucking motd as your
                       stump.
2001/1/29-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:20463 Activity:high
1/29    How come whenever a big earthquake happens in a country, it always
        takes several days before other countries start to send rescue teams
        to help out?  (Turkey, Taiwan, India, ...)  Don't they realize most of
        the trapped would be dead by then?
        \_ Because they don't have rescue teams sitting around doing nothing
           but waiting to leave the instant a quake hits.  Because it takes
           12-24 hours to fly to the other side of the world.  Because going
           \_ Uh.  Nations cannot be affluent.  Citizens can be affluent.
                \_ Uh. Both can.
                   \_ Uh, no bitch.
                      \_ Win a lot of arguments?
                      \_ The wester dictionary uses it in the example:
                         <our affluent society>
           in before the local government asks for help is an act of war.
           Because you just don't have the brain cells to comprehend.
           \_ But somehow those rescue teams have time to talk to the press
              and post for pictures.
              and pose for pictures.
        \_ Strangely, the United States and Japan (two of the more
           affluent nations in the world) sent a whopping $1 million
           to help out in the disaster.
           \_ ah yes, and Bill Gates who is worth over 60 billion dollars
              donates a WHOPPING 1 million dollar to the AIDs research,
              paid over a period of 3 years. What a philanthropist he is.
                   \- maybe he thinks there are bigger priorities than
                   AIDS research ... which is after all quite heavily funded
                   by the US govt. --psb
                   \_ Bill donates quite a bit more to other causes and has
                        said he is leaving most of his fortune to charity when
                        he dies, not his kids.
              \_ Bill Gates owes you nothing.
              \_ I thought it was 100 million and I agree he owes you
                 nothing.
                 \_ he owes me the $300 he grifted on the POS products
                    he sold me in the last 2 decades (plus tax and
                    compounding interest in the Nasdaq). In total,
                    he owes me several thousand dollars.
                        \_ I wasn't aware that the Nasdaq paid compounding
                                interest. Maybe you would have bought high
                                and sold low....
        \_ No, those are RELIEF planes not a military invasion!  Really!
        \_ "We'd like you to help, but the runways are sorta broken to
            pieces right now....  Please don't try to land, our hospital
            space is overcommitted already."
            \_ "...so maybe you could just sorta' crash your planes in some
               open space somewhere near the epicenter, and we can, you know,
               salvage what we need from the wreckage..."
2001/1/1-3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:20209 Activity:nil
1/1     Does anyone know where the Mandarin version of south park would be
        available(given that I don't live in Taiwan)?
        \_ in taiwan
1999/5/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Computer/SW/Virus] UID:15728 Activity:high
4/30    CIH author In-Hao Chen (initial CIH if last initial first) arrested
        in Taiwan.
        http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/technology/zdnet/story.html?s=n/zdnet/technology/19990429/19990429303
        What's funny is that he had already warned fellow students not to
        spread the virus last year, and the university already knew what he
        did and gave him a demerit.  -- yuen
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Politics:Foreign:Asia:Taiwan:
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