8/15    "Pakistan gave Chinese peek at U.S. .copter remains: reported U.S.
        intel assessment"
        http://www.csua.org/u/u0j (news.yahoo.com)

4/5     "Lawmakers: Afghan leader threatens to join Taliban"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100405/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan
        Hmmm, first we proped up bin Laden to fight against the Soviets, and
        he joined the Al Qaida to go against us.  Next we proped up Karzai to
        fight the Al Qaida, and he's joining the Taliban to go against us.
        When will we stop propping up our own enemies?
        \_ When will we stop meddling in other countries affairs? Not too
           surprisingly, when we take sides in conflicts halfway around the
           world, we end up making enemies.

2/13    Feinstein can't keep her mouth shut. Thanks Feinstein!
        http://csua.org/u/nif
        \_ Neither can the WashPo: http://csua.org/u/nik

12/6    worst prank call ever
        http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5302549.ece
        \_ /facepalm. These guys are really on edge.
        \_ worst in that it didn't actually get them to finish the deal
           bout time we got some results for all the money with give them

9/22    "Pakistanis say suspected US drone shot down"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080923/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_drone
        One fewer friend, one more foe.
        \_ Isn't this what Obama said he'd do?
           \_ No, but why let facts get in the way.
           \_ Obama or Osama? Are we really supposed to belive that Obama said
              that he was going to start shooting at US aircraft?
              \_ i think pp was referring to Obama saying he would go into
                 Pakistan without its permission to get Osama
        \_ If you want to be depressed, this article in the NYTimes claims
           that Pakistan endlessly trolls us into giving them billions while
           they fund the Taliban.  Let me repeat.  We give Pakistan money.
           They funnel a large portion to the Taliban in return for the
           Taliban leaving Pakistan alone.  But lately the crazy portion
           \- and a large portion is funneled to the Army's "parallel
              economy" ... while not quite an african kleptocracy or
              saudi level concentration at the top, it's not a normal state.
              it's also a glarine example of "talk/ideology" is cheap in
              politics and how it is the amoral realm of calculation
              [in re: india].
              \_ Further complicating things is that nearly all Pakistanis have
                 at least one relative in the Army. The "parallel economy"
                 flows both ways.
           of the Taliban are too difficult to control and they have been
           suicide bombing inside of Pakistan.  This article is an excellent
           read, but it might drive you to drink:
           http://tinyurl.com/4npby9
           \_ http://www.fas.org/irp/world/pakistan/isi
           \_ Maybe Pakistan's military should do something other than
              stand around like pussies. The reason they don't is that
              Pakistanis are sympathetic to the Taliban. "Controlling the
              Taliban" isn't on the To Do list.
              \_ The tribal regions have never been under the control of the
                 Army or the Govt. They're pretty much autonomous, which is
                 why a) you hear plenty of horror stories about primitive
                 tribal law (e.g., rape as punishment), and b) the tribes have
                 made deals with the Taleban where beneficial to the tribes.
                 \_ Now is a good time to remedy that. People should be
                    registered, there should be checkpoints, heavy weapons
                    should be confiscated, the border should be watched
                    more closely, and documents issued/checked. This might
                    involve going house to house in each village. Build more
                    permanent bases in the region. That is how the US would
                    handle it. Once the machine guns and RPGs are off the
                    streets and the foreigners have been arrested or cleared
                    \_ wow. wow. You know it's easier to get weapons than
                       food & clean water in those regions right?
                       \_ Your point? You can't go in and build dams and
                          roads and other federally funded projects when
                          there are hostile morons roaming around with RPGs.
                          Cleaning up the mess that exists there and
                          imposing law is the first step to having food
                          and water instead of AK-47's.
                    then they can live somewhat normal lives again, but not
                    until then. Impose a curfew and take every male over 16
                    into custody (temporarily) if you have to.
                    \_ wow this is so idiotic, my god, you're an idiot.
                       \_ I agree. Lawless tribal areas are so much better for
                          US, Europe, and Pakistan than having some sort
                          of federal oversight.
                    \_ http://glumbert.com/media/gunmarket
                       \_ excellent video on The Gun Bazaar of Pakistan.
                          Thanks for sharing the video!
                       \_ good video, proves that the "round up everyone
                          evil" guy above is stupid.
                          \_ No, it's proof that the government needs to
                             regulate these weapons just like ours does.
                             \_ Yeah, that worked great in Somalia, Iraq,
                                Vietnam, etc...
                                \_ Working pretty well in Iraq and Vietnam
                                   wasn't ever really lawless. Somalia was
                                   a token effort.

9/12    Perhaps it is a War with Pakistan that is the October Surprise:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080912/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_13
        This seems kind of stupid, especially since Pakistan has nukes.
        \_ Given that we know the problem with Pakistan and nukes, can you
           think of why there might be a reason to do this anyway?
           \_ There's never a reason for war. -liberal
              \_ So civil war and ww2 were a waste of time?
           \_ The GOP is behind in the polls?
           \_ The GOP is behind the polls?
        \- war is a "continuation of policy by other means" ... i dont think
           the us has policy goals w.r.t. pakistan which require "going to
           war" at the moment. rather it is a case of the us just ignoring
           pakistan's sovereignty, cf. Melian Dialog: "the strong do what
           they can and the weak suffer what they must." of course this is
           an interesting norm for the us to push ... say while lecturing
           russian about georgia, or in the future if say india decides
           they need to attack inside pakistan based on goals relating
           to india's kashmir policy [although this may be better deterred
           by nukes]. pakistan was never the us's friend and the us not
           taking india's side for many years shows how cheap political
           rhetoic and ideology is [although to be expected in the
           rhetoric and ideology is [although to be expected in the
           anarchic international system].
           \_ Do you know what a casus belli is?
              \- yes, i do. do you know what "proechein/proschema" means?
                 (thucydides >> grotius, waltzer, augustine etc). anyway,
                 there is CB/normative, CB/propaganda and  CB/empirical.
                 anyway, the point is "casus belli/normative aka "ius ad
                 bellum" has changed over time" (as has "ius in bello") ...
                 material resources, security dilemma, religious conversion
                 etc. the US/bush doctrine partly has been controversial
                 because it suggests a change in casus belli/normative.
                 as was say the monroe doctrine introducing [sic] the idea
                 of a "sphere of influence". of course, i'm only guessing
                 about "what is your point" ...
                 \_ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_10
                 \_ http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ocw7w
                    Pakistan is going to start shooting back, which kind of
                    puts a hole in your theory that they just have to put up
                    with our shenanigans.
            \_ So what if Pakistan has nukes? I don't think they want to play
               that game with USA. USA spent a lot of time and money
               during the cold war planning engagements against an enemy
               "with nukes".
               \_ I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. The
                  government is very shakey there right now and it is
                  not out of the question that we could end up with a bunch
                  of Muslim Brotherhood types running that country. It is
                  kind of hard to tell how they would react to their territorial
                  sovereignty being violated like that.

8/18    Well, that was quick: Musharraf steps down:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7567451.stm

7/24    Why does Pakistan need a $230m boost to its air force?
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7523856.stm
        Seriously, F-16s against the Taliban? Really?
        \_ You don't know anything about CAS.
           \_ Enlighten me.
           \_ Okay, then explain to me why using an F-16 as a bomb truck is
              sensible, or why an F-16 is a more suitable choice for a CAS
              role than something like an A-10 or a Super Tucano.

7/9     Okay, maybe we should be bombing Pakistan after all
        http://storage.karachikids.com/process/trailerview.html

5/5     10000 dead from one storm:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080505/ap_on_re_as/myanmar_cyclone

3/20    Looking for a generic Pakistani gift for a Pakistani couple.
        What are some appropriate things to buy? I've heard about mithai,
        is that appropriate? What other things can you get that's
        Pakistani themed and that they'd enjoy?
        \_ anyone notice the new female pakistani premiere looks EXACTLY
           like bhutto?  what's up with that?
           \_ I'm sorry, how is this RELEVANT to the original question?
              \_ Since when was the motd about relevance?
           \_ Yousaf Raza Gilani is female?

3/13    "Indian DNA links to 6 'founding mothers' - Yahoo News!"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080313/ap_on_sc/native_american_dna
        "That finding doesn't answer the bigger questions of where those women
        lived, or of how many people left Beringia to colonize the Americas,
        she said Thursday."
        Wow, even Native Americans were colonizers.
        \_ Uh yes.  People did not spring up fully formed all over the globe.
           That meant they had to colonize.
           \_ Of course not!  They were kicked out of the Garden for their
              sins.

2/29    Economy is good in Afghanistan.
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23408353
        In other news, drug trades in Afghanistan is at record levels.
        Go USA USA USA!

2/26    Why are there so many Indian women on BBC talking about British
        and world news? Shouldn't they present Indian news instead?
        \_ Outsourcing.
        \_ Light skin coloured Indian women with Bengali last names
           speaking in Standard British accent sound more sophisticated and
           smarter than bloody dumb blondes.
           \_ Their skin color makes them sound better?
              \_ It doesn't, but most Bengali's are fair skinned and
                 very Westernized (they love Channel and Fendi and
                 Tiffany's) and have a presence more elegant than
                 bloody dumb blondes. Southern women tend to be a bit
                 more brash and ditto with Punjabs      -pp GO INDIA!
                 \- speaking as a bengali who is reasonably fair skinned,
                    has bought ChanNel [sic] but hates spending money on
                    perfume [maybe Channel 5 is the Chav version of Chanel
                    No. 5?] owns a Fendi scarf, but equates Tiffany with the
                    Devil aka DeBeers ... you dont know what you are talking
                    about.
                    \_ Hey, give him a break, he's probably a sexually
                       inexperienced nerd who is confusing being attracted to
                       exotic women with character judgement.
        \_ Why are there so many East Asian women on US new channels?
        \_ Why are there so many East Asian women on US news channels?
           I bet the answer is the same...
           \_ Is it because big robust blonds like JACKIE JOHNSON looks
              less exotic and intellectual than Asian news-anchorwomen?

10/2    More on Blackwater:
        http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/02/blackwater.afghan.crash
        \_ Blackwater USA: Giving all mercs a bad name!

9/14    Argentina museum displays Incan mummy - Yahoo! News:
        http://www.csua.org/u/jiw
        This mummy is creepy.
        \_ All mummies are creepy.
           \_ This one is more creepy than the Egyptian ones.  She looks alive.
              \_ I find the dried husk look more creepy.

8/14    Torture: Not only illegal and immoral, it just doesn't work:
        http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/07/torture200707
        \_ unfortunately it takes until near the bottom of the last page to
           actually get to anyone saying it doesn't work.  couldn't you have
           just quoted those 2 lines and saved us from reading 3.98 pages that
           didn't back up your statement?  [I like when my posts get deleted.
           That way I know I hit a nerve.  Keep up the censorship.]
           \_ "It was an extraordinary success story. But it was one that
               would evaporate with the arrival of the C.I.A's interrogation
               team." Paragraph four. But who's counting?
               \_ That is not the same as saying "it doesn't work".  That is
                  saying the FBI was there using a method that was apparently
                  working and then the CIA showed up and used a different
                  method.  It doesn't say the CIA method didn't work.  He may
                  have had nothing more to say.  It may be a technique that
                  was not effective on this one person.  The only place in the
                  article that makes a general claim for the failure of the
                  CIA's technique was the 2 lines 3/4s down on the last page.
                  So who is counting?  I am.  You're seeing what you want to
                  see.  I am not making the case either way for torture
                  working or not: I don't know, it isn't my field (thankfully),
                  but this article doesn't say what you say it says until the
                  2 lines on page 4.  My point?  Quote the 2 lines or change
                  your post to match what your article says.
                  \_ Almost the entire article is a case of making evidence
                     for the statement that torture does not work as an
                     intelligence gathering tool. I could quote paragraph
                     after paragraph, but that would still not change your
                     mind about what you think you read. This is a very
                     common rhetorical technique: build a case for a
                     statement and then make it at the end of the essay.
                     Simply stating it does not have the same effect (for what
                     I hope are obvious reasons).
                     \_ The entire article is about what happened re: the one
                        guy once the CIA showed up.  You could quote the whole
                        thing but you won't be quoting anything that says that
                        the CIA method does not work in the general case until
                        3/4s down page 4.  If they had presented more than one
                        case, made a general claim for dozens (or however many)
                        cases where it failed, or something then sure, I'd
                        buy it, but this article does not say what you say it
                        says except for the 2 sentences as noted.
        \_ Or it does:  http://csua.com/2006/09/21/#44481
        \_ Torture works just fine. -- ilyas
           \_ you should ask Colin Powell for that.  he paid dearly.
              \_ Your grammar sucks.  Why should you live?

8/1     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070801/ap_on_el_pr/obama_terrorism_7
        Okay, I'm glad Obama is making actual suggestions rather than the more
        common political tactic of simply criticizing others.  However, his
        plan of taking care of business in Pakistan could be a problem if that
        nuke-armed country toppled into the hands of Muslim extremists.  I hope
        he addresses that potentiality.
        \_ Depends.  If the extremists are wiped out then there is no problem
           with Pakistan falling into their hands, eh?  I think that's what
           he's getting at.  And yes, I'm also glad to see someone finally
           saying what *they would do* instead of just attacking others.
        \_ Obama is even with Hillary C. in NH.
           \_ Please do not let that woman win the primary. There's no reason
              to have family members of recent presidents also become
              president. Out of principle we should not let it happen.
              \_ You mean like Teddy Roosevelt ---> FDR and George H. W.
                 Bush --> George W. Bush?
                 \_ Yes, like that.
                    \_ Or John Adams -> John Quincy Adams
        \_ Given Pakistan's Intel org's backing of the Taliban pre-9/11, our
           current policy of coddling Musharraf is asinine and naive. Good on
           Obama for identifying the problem. Looking forward to voting for him
           in 2008.

4/25    What the Marines really think about kids in Afghanistan
        http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c4_1176720508
        \_ I don't think this is a big deal.  Grunts in the Marines
           will not be Ivy League educated investment bankers.
           As long as they don't give into institutionalizing torture
           on advice from the CIA, I'm ok with them.
        \_ That first guy is a spitting image of Pvt Pyle from Full Metal
           Jacket
        \_ I guess some of the friendly-fire accidents are meant for good.
        \_ I was expecting worse -- things involving child sex abuse.  Maybe it
           was edited out.
           \_ These guys are US Marines, they don't work for the UN.  It's
              the UN troops who are engaged in the sex trade and child abuse.
              You're looking at a bunch of jar heads doing what soldiers have
              done since the dawn of time: bitching about marching, bitching
              about the weather, bitching about the people, just plain
              bitching because they have nothing else to do.  The only thing
              in the entire video that looked like a problem at all was the
              two guys playing air guitar with what looked like live weapons.
              Seriously, what did you all expect?  They'd be planting flowers,
              waving flags, and giving speeches on how nice it is to inter-
              mingle with foreign cultures to expand their horizons?  Get real.
              Guys like them are around so guys like you can sit at home and
              bitch about them in safety.  And in case you missed the point,
              I'll repeat it: if you're looking for real scumbags you'll find
              them working for the UN.  It's documented and large scale.  The
              few cases where American soldiers have gone bad are very few and
              they got jailed for it.  At the UN they condone it.
              \_ Standard dittohead response: when threatenend, bluster loudly
                 with authority on one of your talking points.
                 \_ Personal attack?  Maybe next time you'll bring something
                    to the table.  Thanks for playing.
                    \_ that's attacking the response, not the person.
                       \_ I don't think the person who wrote "Standard
                          dittohead response" even saw the video so he was
                          unable to do anything but attack the messenger.
                          If he'd seen the video he might have had a counter
                          which actually referenced something in the video
                          showing how evil the US Marines are.  But he didn't.
                          You want real thugs and criminals?  Check out the UN.
                          \_ Once again you change the subject.  This is
                             a video made BY THE MARINES, not by Amnesty
                             International or anyone who would be looking
                             for malfeasance.
              \_ This is an awfully long way of saying WDYHA.
        \_ Pretty much this is what you always see when you're in a poor
           country.

3/28    U.S. versions of weekly news magazines have dumbed down covers
        http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/03/26/the-dumbing-down-of-america
        \_ I'm already happy to see that they didn't substitute an Afghanistan
           conflict cover with an Anna Nicole Smith cover.  Not that I'm not
           obsessed with Smith, but I don't want to see top-story coverage of
           her in magazines like Time and Newsweek.

1/11   21,500 more troops, yay!!! Let's kill all the bad people!
        \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16576547
           Pentagon wants 92,000 more. "Failure is not an option."
           \_ Where are they gonna got 92,000 more when recruitment is down?
        \_ hmm, I recall that we have roughly 20,000 casualties (3000 dead, rest
           of them wounded).  If anything, this "surge" is nothing but
           replenishment for the casualties, no?
        \_ for once, I actually *AGREE* with Bush that we need a "surge."
           however, I really think we should use this "surge" in Afghanistan
           instead of Iraq.  These 20k soldiers would probably made a big
           differences in Afghanistan.

12/26   http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/news/military.php
        "It's the French Foreign Legion for me!"

11/02   Just FYI, here's the Heritage Foundation's study about who military
        recruits are.
        http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed112905a.cfm
        \_ I like how they're "better educated than the national average"
           Given that being a member of the armed forces has standards at all
           and being a member of the country doesn't... why is this at all an
           interesting result?

10/12   'One soldier told him later: "Sir, three years ago before I joined the
        army, I never thought I'd say 'That damn marijuana'."'
        http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/10/12/canada.troops.marijuana.reut/index.html
        \_ Yet another reason I'd like to see pot legalized.  I hate pot culture
           and I think it's a stupid drug, but I think it would be great
           to be able to grow huge pot plants to conceal my bunker from
           aerial infrared photography.  *sigh*.
        \_ Yet another reason I'd like to see pot legalized.  I hate pot
           culture and I think it's a stupid drug, but I think it would
           be great to be able to grow huge pot plants to conceal my
           bunker from aerial infrared photography.  *sigh*.
        \_ FORESTS of pot plants?? And opium is the main cash export of
           Afghanistan??
           \_ Per pound/ounce, opium's a much better investment. Also, the
              home-grown MJ industry here is widespread, whereas our opium
              production is virtually non-existent.

9/21    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/21/060921191305.ugcxd7ae.html
        Pakistani President Musharraf says, shortly after 9/11, U.S. said
        Pakistan would be bombed "back to the fucking stone age" unless it cooperated
        with the fucking U.S. in Afghanistan.  I sure remember the speech when
        Musharraf expressed his unqualified support - he sounded like a freakin
        genius.
        \_ i think Musharraf said this for domestic consumption.  Pakistan
           has been playing on the both side from day one.  US know this.

9/19    Who are the fucking Prisoners at Gitmo?
        "After two months of sifting the fucking information, Hegland had her answer...
        It showed that most of the fucking detainees hadn't been caught 'on the
        battlefield' but rather mostly in Pakistan; fewer than half were
        accused of fighting against the fucking U.S., and there was scant evidence to
        confirm that they were even combatants. In other words, most of the
        detainees probably were entirely innocent."
        http://www.cjr.org/issues/2006/5/Umanskyb.asp?printerfriendly=yes

9/7     Excellent 10 page article on the US/Mexico border.  Read before jerking
        that knee, no matter what side you think that you're on.
        http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2006/09/exodus.html
        \_ That article's got more spin then the ball at a globetrotters game.
           \_ Care to cite an example?
              \_ "economic theology", "brown invasion" these terms carry
                 a great deal more than information on the condition of
                 the border and enforcement.
              \_ "We worry about nuclear weapons that are not controlled by
                 white people"

9/5     http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1696014/posts
        http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?153297
        Pakistan signs peace agreement with pro-Taliban tribes in N Waziristan,
        with prisoner release and abandonment of some Pakistani security
        posts; Osama bin Laden not to be taken into custody as long as he does
        not disturb the local peace.
        \_ err... this is not news.  It is well known that Pakistan authorities
           had a truce with pro-taliban tribes.
           \_ well known?  the freepers sure seem surprised, and I haven't
              seen it on Page 1's, especially the part about Osama.
              \_ Also, did anyone tell George? 'Cos he just put Osama at the
                 top of the list again....
                 \_ someone told the Pakistani army spokesman who first
                    mentioned letting Osama go to completely disavow his
                    earlier statement
                    earlier statement.  Actually, I take that back, Brian Ross
                    misreported, see below:
        \_ http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/pakistan_denies.html
           The ABC News Brian Ross blog yesterday distorted what the Pakistani
           general had said.  To its lame credit, the blog today posts the
           exact quote:  "One has to stay like a peaceful citizen and not
           allowed to participate in any kind of terrorist activity."
           Also, it is true that the same spokesman today said that HVTs
           like Osama will be pursued regardless of their current behavior. -op

9/1     http://tinyurl.com/l6j3a (usatoday.com)
        We're already in there, how about using Agent Orange?
        \_ Because it's toxic to humans?
        \_ Because it's toxic to Americans?
           [don't edit my posts please, add your own comment if you have
            something to say.  thanks.]
            something to say.  thanks. -white person]
        \_ Because it's toxic to harmans?

9/1     http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-03-01-afghanistan-opium_x.htm
        We're already in there, how about using Agent Orange?
        \_ Because it's toxic to humans?
           [don't edit my posts please, add your own comment if you have
            something to say.  thanks.]

7/18    Afghanistan to re-form virtues ministry
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060718/ap_on_re_as/afghan_virtues_ministry
        \_ GOD DAMN IT I hate this fucking planet.  Why must people be such
           fucking morons?  How on earth in Afghanistan is this a priority?
           Of course the US won't say "get your head out of your ass and do
           something important" because half the fucking US probably wishes we
           would move on something like this domestically.

7/13    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5175276.stm
        Yes, we're winning the war on terror like we are with the
        War on Drugs!

7/8     Afghidan
        http://afghanidan.blogspot.com/                        -jblack
        \_ Wow, nice photoblog.
        \_ "A young man's strange, erotic journey from Milan to Minsk."
           ...erotic?
        \_ Good link, thank you.  -John

3/20    religion of peace - or intolerance?
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188364,00.html
        \_ FREEDOM IS ON THE FUCKING MARCH
        \_ bad decision on the gov.'s part.  best case is they
           should just exile the poor guy.  it sucks that people
           magically pull laws out of their ass and say
           "it's Islamic law!" when it was really only in the hadith,
           not the koran.
        \_ let's kick some middle east butt then
        \_ if you dont believe in islam, you are attacking it
        and therefore you have to die.. paraphrasing the judge
        so.. everyone who is not muslim must die then..
           \_ that explains the 99% muslim rate in afghanistan.
             \_they maintain a 1% hindu population in order
                to maintain their shooting skills
        \_ They'll get what's coming to them after we've exploited
           all their countries' natural resources (e.g., oil)
           - passive aggressive man
           \_ the liberal view is to just wipe them out first
           and then take their oil freely?
        \_ Mission Accomplished!
        \_ From the BBC version:
           "The editor of a women's rights magazine was convicted of insulting
            Islam and sentenced to death last year - but was later released
            after an apology and heavy international pressure."
           Expect a similar result here. Executing apostates would
           significantly undermine Karzai.

2/15    New Torture images from Abu Ghirab released
        http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=55&p=20656&s2=15
        (warning, not for the faint of heart)
        \_ Yet not one picture of these 'cartoons'?
           \_ Um, heard of google?
              \_ In how many major publications are the cartoons?
        \_ curious about the timing, though.  why they release it now?
           \_ Some Aussie publishers were probably getting jealous that
              the US image in the middle east wasn't being tarnished as
              much by the European caricature fallout, so they decided to
              "correct" this situation.
           \_ The ACLU just won a FOIA challange.
                \_ The liberal media can't stand Muslims looking like
                barbarians, so they want to remind everyone the US is
                worse.
                \_ both muslims and US are barbarians.
                   \_ Only great han nation not barbarian.
                      \_ Everyone is a barbarian, only great GERMAN HANS
                         JOHN not barbarian. HEIL JOHN!
                      \_ indians are not barbarians either.  very
                         civilized country.
                         \_ Unless you are in the wrong caste.
                            \_ caste is slowly disappearing in india,
                               whereas social mobility has been getting
                               worse in the US the last 2 decades.
                               \_ Are you talking out of your ass or do you
                                  have reputable research that support
                                  your statement?
                                  \_ I read.  try to do the same, or if
                                     that's beyond your mental capacity,
                                     you can always use google as your
                                     brain.
                                  \_ I read.  you can always use google.
                               \_ If you don't like it then get the fuck
                                  out of my country             !williamc
                                  \_ i am just stating facts reported
                                     by the wsj.  no need to get all
                                     flustered.
                               \_ Repeat this five times to yourself,
                                  perhaps in front of a mirror, and
                                  you'll realize how stupid this sounds.
                                  \_ this whole thread is stupid,
                                     especially starting from the "liberal
                                     media" part.  yea, and the knee jerk
                                     "caste!" reaction whenever india is
                                     mentioned sure is intelligent.  you
                                     should look in the mirror yourself.
                                     \_ Civilized nations don't have castes
                                        in the 21st century, slowly
                                        disappearing or not. It's disingenuous
                                        to ignore that hideous aspect of
                                        Hindu culture. "Look in the
                                        mirror" indeed.
                                        \_ Civilized nations also don't
                                           torture people.
                                           \_ I disagree. Besides, the
                                              treatment of one's enemy
                                              is quite different from
                                              treatment of one's own people.
                                              \_ yea sure, the Hutus didn't
                                                 kill their own either.
                                                 They only butchered the
                                                 Tutsis.  So very
                                                 civilized.
                                                 \_ Do you have a point with
                                                    that comment? I'm sure
                                                    Pakistanis are treated
                                                    well in Kashmir, right?
                                                    \_ Do you have a point
                                                       with that comment?
                                                       Regardless of what
                                                       happens in Kashmir,
                                                       you are still as
                                                       civilized as a
                                                       baboon.
                                              \_ The treatment of ones
                                                 enemy is the clearest
                                                 indication of ones
                                                 worth.
                                                 I also fail to see how
                                                 you can compare the
                                                 caste system to torture.
                                                 What do you even know
                                                 about the caste system?
                                                 Did you know that most
                                                 brahmins were/are dirt
                                                 poor and depended on
                                                 poor and depend on
                                                 begging and handouts to
                                                 support themselves?
                                                 \- um this isnt true in any
                                                    meaningful way.
                                                    \_ My experience
                                                       indicates that
                                                       it is. We can
                                                       disagree, but
                                                       the domination
                                                       of the brahmins
                                                       is in my exp.
                                                       a grotesque
                                                       exaggeration of
                                                       the so-called
                                                       backwards com-
                                                       munities.
                                                 When one sees the plight
                                                 of the majority of the
                                                 "high born" one wonders
                                                 whether it is not a
                                                 curse, rather than a
                                                 blessing.
                                                 \_ Tell em to get jobs like
                                                    everyone else.
                                        \_ Why not? What exactly is the
                                           problem your perceive w/ the
                                           caste system? That your birth
                                           problem you have w/ the caste
                                           system? That your birth
                                           precludes you from becoming a
                                           hindu priest? For, in reality,
                                           that is the ONLY restriction
                                           which caste places on a man.
                                           hindu priest? In reality that
                                           is the ONLY restriction that
                                           caste places on a man.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040113/asp/nation/story_2780541.asp _/
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1
        \_ What does this have to do w/ the caste system?
           Those who act in this way do so w/ a completely
           incorrect understanding of the caste system.
           The caste system classifies men into certain
           stations based primarily on their conduct, not
           on their birth. Those who committed these crimes
           have no claim to any caste.
           To point to such people as the true and proper
           illustration of the caste system would be akin
           to pointing to hamas terrorists as the true and
           proper illustration of Islam or cross-buring KKK
           members as true and proper Christians.
           \_ The stuff in those links reflects on India and this is a thread
              where somebody claimed India is extra civilized.
              \_ wait.  what does this has to do with whether US and muslims
                 are barbarians?
           \_ I think someone here is in denial.

12/28   Come on guys, murdering women and children?  NOT Honorable.
        http://csua.org/u/eg8
        \_ You're being culturally insensitive.
           \_ Go away, troll.
        \_ they need to teach muslims the power of forgiving.  not every-
           thing has to be eye for an eye.  hopefully this gives fuel
           to us Westerners as to how ruthless these people are.
           \_ I think this has more to do with "third world" than Islam.

12/6    I read that the PAKI in Pakistan stands for: Pashtun, Afgan,
        Kashmiris and Iranians.  Is that true?
        \_ Yes, because all acronyms around the world are from English
           transliterations, so as to make it easy for the U.S. media market.
        \- no
        \_ Short for Pakistani.  Don't call an Indian a Paki unless you
           want to insult them.
           \_ I thought "Paki" was insulting for Pakistanis as well.
              \- i assume the quetion was about "where does the name
                 "pakistan" come from, not about the usage of the
                 epithet "paki". some people say "wog" stands for
                 western oriential gentleman but that is probably not
                 true and it is just a nasty term that ex post had
                 various faux meanings attached to it. punjab on the
                 other hand certainly is from "5+waters". "paki"
                 i think is urdu for pure or sacred or something like that.
                 i dont know the origin. but it certainly isnt like say
                 "benelux" etc. anybody claiming "kashmir is an essential
                 part of pakistan and is the k in the name" is either confused
                 or bullshitting. the P if anything would be for punjab which
                 is much more important than pashtoon. and sind is left out.
                 YMWTS: http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Humor/Peccavi.txt
                 i note in passing, the indian national anthem does have a
                 sanskritized list of parts of india.
        \_ easy to assess the veracity of the claims made in this web site:
           http://geography.about.com/library/misc/blpakname.htm

9/27    http://csua.org/u/dj4 (sfgate.com)
        "... graduated summa cum laude in 3 1/2 years with a 3.84 GPA ...
        ... worked on a master's degree in history while playing professional
        football ...
        Pat [Tillman] said, 'You know, this war is so fucking illegal.' ...
        Another soldier in the platoon ... said Pat urged him to vote for ...
        Sen. John Kerry.
        ... Tillman subscribed to the Economist magazine ..."
        \_ It's not true, I tellz ya. It's just not true:
           http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hannity-Colmes-Coulter-Tillman.wmv
        \_ "Tillman created a makeshift base library of classic novels so his
            platoon mates would have literature to read in their down time.
            He even brought gourmet coffee to brew for his platoon in the
            field in Afghanistan."
           Dude, that is so... GAY!
               \_ Army coffee rations are horrible. Most coffee drinkers
                  brought their own, though, couldn't afford gourmet coffee.
            \_ He married the coach's daughter in 2002 after dating for ~ 4
               years, and he says he wore his hair long and dirty before that
               to keep the other women off him.
        \_ sad story.  Lack of will of diciplining soldiers is catching up
           to US military.  I am not bothered by this friendly fire incident,
           but deeply disturbed by the fact that Pentagon is not being
           straight forward about this whole thing.  Why is that?

9/21    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050921/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan
        Karzai actually demands an end to US-led operations. How dare he
        talk to us like that! Looks like we need to put in a new puppet ruler
        \_ just promise Karzai that we will not 1. interfere opium production
           and 2. demand to share profit derive from opium sales should be
           suffice.

7/22    "Indian Muslims wear scarves printed with the national flags of Britain
        and the U.S. during Friday prayers in a mosque in the northern Indian
        city of Lucknow ..."
        http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050722/ids_photos_wl/r2882339481.jpg
        That's weird.
        \_ Weird?

5/30    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/30/cheney.amnestyintl/index.html
        Who has more credibility, Amnesty International or Cheney? Also do
        you believe in Cheney's prediction that fighting would be over
        before the next administration?
        \_ Yeah A.I. is totally right. Comparing abuses of prisoners
           in Cuba to the Soviet Gulags where 16 million died.
           \_ False argumentation.  Cheney:  "our abuses aren't so bad, and
              we've done a bunch of good things, and human rights violators
              are entirely bad, so because we're not quite that bad, we're
              not human rights violators."  Righteous indignation, indeed.  As
              for gulags, it's a poorly chosen figure of speech.  Just like
              "concentration camps"--invented by the British, remember?  -John
              \_ but  we just have queer makeover camps
        \_ AI has it right -- the bar is much higher for the U.S. (a little
           abuse goes a long way), so the comparison is fair.
           Cheney may be viewed as being more arrogant than combative,
           Cheney may be viewed as being more arrogant more than combative,
           and is also practicing defining reality.
           \_ I wish you could grow up in a 3rd world country to see
              what a little goes a long way really means.
              \_ This is awesome. That the US is not as bad as a 3rd country
                 is hardly a defence. Are there any other 1st world
              \_ This is awesome. That the US is not as bad as a 3rd world
                 country is hardly a defence. Are there any other 1st world
                 countries that hold people indefinitely without a trial
                 and torture them for information?
              \_ There is a hell of a lot of torture that goes on in
                 American prisions, too, mostly in the form of prisoner
                 on prisoner rape. This oftens leads to HIV, too. The
                 authorities could stop this, but choose not to.
                 authorities could stop this, but choose not too.
           \_ "That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an
               empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."
        \_ "our abuses aren't so bad" -- what kind of talk is that from
           the "leader of the free world".  Sounds kinda like this guy:
        General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't
        get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million
        killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.

5/15    17 dead in Afghanistan, and now Newsweek apologizes.
        http://csua.org/u/c2q
        \_ Woohoo! Go newsweek!
        \_ uh oh, they're gonna lose subscribers, just like CBS. GO FOX NEWS!
        \_ They are owned by the Washington Post. They are responsible
           for Admiral Boorda's death.

5/14    http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8345
        While the Christians kick ass, millions more Muslims around the
        world are getting pissed off. I don't know about you but I think
        this is beginning to look more and more like the Fifth Crusade.
        \_ that's not exactly "massive" protests
           \_ No, but demagoguery + uneducated masses + aggressive ideology +
              media coverage can certainly lead to these.  -John

1/6     http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/AC130_GunshipMed_a.wmv
        Want to see our awsome military capabilities? Look at this video
        with precision guided weapons destroying the bad Afghan
        warlords. Video like this makes me proud of being an American.
        \_ ob group masturbation of hooded prisoners at abu ghraib video; also:
        "I went down to Tier 1 (the cellblock where much of the abuse is said
        to have occurred) and when I looked down the corridor, I saw two
        naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth
        open," he is quoted as saying. "I thought I should just get out of
        there. I didn't think it was right, as it seemed like the wrong thing
        to do. I saw Staff Sergeant Frederick walking towards me, and he
        said, `Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two
        seconds.'"

12/13   is there a website that keeps track of where all
        the blogs of soldiers in afghanistan/iraq are?
        \_ obGWB censored blogs

11/4    Why aren't we more worried about Vladimir Putin?  He's essentially
        made himself a dictator, Russia has the economy and the stability
        of a 3rd world country, and he controls 10,000 ICBMs, most of which
        are armed with MIRVs.  This scares me.  Someone convince me that
        I shouldn't be scared.
        \_ Why would he attack us?  No motive, no crime.
           \_ The instability and economic wretchedness, combined with
              authoritarianism and tons of nuclear weapons, doesn't seem
              dangerous to you?  Do you find Pakistan warm and cuddly too?
              \_ I never said I found Russia "warm and cuddly," but if you
                 can't see a difference between Russia and Pakistan, you
                 need to get out of CA for a bit.
        \_ I think many people are worried about him... its just that the
           powers that be have their hands tied in terms of criticism
           since he is using the same theatrics to justify his power grab
           that they are.
        \_ About Russian economy. I have lived there as well as in a real
           third-world country and I can tell you that people in Russia are far
           far better off than in a third world conutry, even the pension age
           people who depend on govt pensions. Their current per-capita GDP is
           about $9000/year in real terms. While this might not sound much,
           remember that most Russians own their housing. But you're right
           to be worried about Putin. I am worried about his authoritarian
           tendencies too, though I can sort of understand why he is so popular
           even right now. Russia has tried to liberalized its economy
           and politics too fast and chaos ensued in the early 90s, probably
           thanks to the incompetent policy of this drunkard Yeltsin and
           his cronies who were running the country behind his back. So when
           the Russians were choosing between Putin and the liberal democrats
           the last time, for them, it was like choosing between an
           authoritarian Putin who credibly promisses to return stability
           and the greatness to Russia or Yeltsin era chaos. They picked
           the former and he's obviously taking advantage of their goowill..
        \_ http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/11/01/011.html
           It's only an excerpt, but if this doesn't get your bloodpressure
           up, I don't know what will.

10/13   GITMO: Terrorist U?
        link:csua.org/u/9g4 (SJ Mercury News)
        \_ "It was not clear why U.S. authorities released Mehsud.
           After he returned to his tribal homeland in South Waziristan,
           he became a rebel leader and has opposed Pakistani forces that
           are hunting Al-Qaida fighters in the semiautonomous area."
           Now why is this a surprise? If I've been detained by some
           country for 2 years, you'll bet your ass when I am freed, I will
           do all I can do get even.
           \_ Thank you for spelling it out. -op

9/9     Why is Pakistan so nice to the US? What are we giving them? Funding?
        Weapons? Intelligence?
        \_ they tried to kill the general
           \_ only after he said he was the Dubya's best friend
        \_ the promise of destruction
        \_ money.  without our money, their economy would collapse
           \_ I thought the deal was money for "counter-terror" which goes to
              buying toys for their army.
        \_ the only way to travel that remote countryside is with
           a thousand troops
           \_ Don't squish other people's posts!
              \_ The only way to post on the motd is with a thousand
                 troops.
        \_ Because they are a bunch of cowards and doesn't have true
           democracy. Isn't it great that what we do are only supported
           by our puppet government or countries that doesn't have true
           democracy?
        \_ Money and legitamacy.
        \_ El Presidente de Pakistan sided with the U.S. post-9/11.  The threat
           then was you were with us or against us.  He did the right thing.
           That was when the U.S. had credibility.
           That was when the U.S. had credibility and also wasn't overextended.
           \_ You never hear about the white house complaining that Pakistan
              needs to be more democratic and that it was run by a dictator.
              So the US supports dictator, as long as they are with you.
              \_ We could have just told Stalin to go fuck himself during WW2.
        \_ Geopolitics. They need allies vs. India.

8/19    Pakistan does it right:  Torture is all these killers deserve!
        http://csua.org/u/8o6

8/6     We do it to ours, we do it to theirs:
        http://csua.org/u/8hx
        \_ They are highly expendable.

7/29    The July 7 New Republic article on pressure on Pakistan to announce
        squishage of high-value targets during the Democratic convention
        http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040719&s=aaj071904
        \_ Only the left expresses compunction over the
           capture of Eastasian operatives.
           \_ Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
              \_ Spaceballs rule!

7/29    You gotta be impressed with Karl Rove's timing:
        http://csua.org/u/8dr
        \_ Your lack of enthusiasm suggests to me that you hate America.
        \_ Wonder who it is, and why the Pakistani government is being
           cagey about it.
        \_ Those Pakistanis should have waited till after the convention to
           arrest the guy.
           \_ Yeah, they totally jumped the shark on the October Surprise!
              Invade Pakistan!
              \_ I don't think you know what jumping the shark means.

7/1     http://www.awitness.org/news/december_2001/osama_nose_job.html

6/26    Why do we have sanctions on Cuba?
        \_ Because when Castro ousted Batista, he made ouvertures to the
           Kennedy government, who didn't like his leftist leanings.  There
           followed a spiral of tit-for-tat, at some point the Cubans
           nationalized most corporate possessions, which the Americans didn't
           like, we organized and fucked-up an invasion, the Cubans got cozy
           with the Soviets, who put missiles there, which we risked a
           nuclear war to (successfully) get out.  The sanctions came
           about in the early '60s to try and force Castro out of office, and
           have been propagated for a number of reasons, including not liking
           commies in our back yard, Cuban human rights violations, and
           obstinate right-wing Cuban expats in Florida.  Look up the Helms-
           Burton act and the history of the United Fruit Company for
           starters.  -John
           \_ I wouldn't call the Florida Cubans right wing.  I would call
              them ardently anti-Castro.  They're a one-platform political
              group.
        \_ To drive up the cost of Cuban cigars.
        \_ because we got pissed off by Cuba's decision to become an
           independent country than a colony of United States.
           \_Wow, time to get your head out of your ass and read up on
             basic 20th Century American history. How's the smell down there?
           \_ w00t!
             \_ how about next time you actually try to respond intelligently
        \_ hard to say,.  I think we're just waiting for castro to die now.
           the cuba sanctions are pretty pointless
           \_ Again, it amazes one how clueless supposedly intelligent people
              are. We have sanctions against cuba because of the expatriot
              cuban vote in Florida. C'mon, guys, you can't be that behind
              politics in America, can you?
              \_ so the entire country has sanctions against cuba because
                 of how a subset of floridians feel? i don't follow...
                 \_ Cuba has been the Soviets client state throughout
                    Castro's reign.  On behalf of the Soviets Cubans trained
                    many of the Arab terrorists we fight today and sent
                        \_ judging by how much money we sent to pakistan
                           and afghanistan, i bet we trained way more
                           arab terrorists than the cubans.  plus
                           the soviets aren't a threat anymore, they all
                           move to UCLA to be armchair historians.
                           \_ That's what we want you to think. -- ilyas
                           \_  You don't know what you are talking about.
                    troops to Nicaraugua, Zaire, Angola, and Algeria, among
                    others.  The axis today between Castro, De Silva, and
                    Chavez is destroying South America.
                    \_ Chavez is in a lot of trouble.  There's no doubt in
                       my mind the US has a lot to do with it.  US foreign
                       policy successes (by their very nature) never get
                       publicized until much much later. -- ilyas
                       \_ you make laugh
                          \_ He has something to say.  You're a low grade
                             troll.
        \_ Because we can, the best of all reasons.
           \- The US mania over cuba has consequences beyond bilateral
              relations and domestic politics. It's gone beyond "mere"
              mutual neglect. e.g. Helms-Burton. --psb
           \_ stupid.  we *can* destroy the whole fucking world.  but we
              don't.  we *can* invade and take over all the annoying
              EU countries that needle us constantly.  but we don't.  we
              can do a lot of things that would be emotionally satisfying,
              but we don't.  you're an idiot.

6/16    Russert on Meet the Press, reading from GAO report:
        "As a result of the increased poppy production and in-country heroin
        production, greater resources were available to Afghan criminal
        networks and others at odds with the central government. The
        International Monetary Fund and Afghanistan's minister of Finance
        have stated that the potential exists for Afghanistan to become
        a 'narcostate' in which all legitimate institutions are infiltrated
        by the power and wealth of drug traffickers."
        Karzai agreed with him.  Can we start calling this a failure yet?
        http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5202007
        \_ Oh no!  There is *potential* for bad things to happen!  It is a
           quagmire!  It is Viet Nam all over again!  Yikes!  There are drugs
           being grown in a place where drugs have historically always been
           grown!  What is the world coming to!  The sky!  The sky!  It is
           faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllliiiiiiiiiiinnnnnng!!
           \_ We fucked up in Afghanistan.  Poppy production is up.  We had
              an opportunity to make a real difference there, and instead we
              left the country to rot so that we could prosecute a useless
              invasion in Iraq.  You need to wake up.
              \_ I'm not the same poster as above, but, Do I think we
                 could have done a better job in Afganistan? Yes.  If the
                 could have done a better job in Afganistan? Yes.  Is the
                 sky falling? No. Geez, it would really help your
                 arguments if they didn't all sound like they came from
                 the Book of Revelation.
                 \_ Nice straw man, but I said nothing about Armageddon or the
                    sky falling.  I was simply pointing out that we've fucked
                    up in Afghanistan.  Nobody is paying attention to this.
                    \_ The point is, calling it a failure is a tad
                       premature.  I apologize for using Hyperbole.
                 \_ There is no Book of "Revelations"
                    \_ My bible sure has one. You know, the chapter at the end.
                       \_ Ah, he's being picky.  At least in the King
                          James version it's called "Revelation" or "The
                          Revelation of St. John the Divine"  Leave it to
                          someone on the motd to get picky about a stray
                          's'.
              \_ Yes, we should have razed the poppy fields.  Instead we paid
                 for the harvest instead of letting it get out into illegal
                 drug production.  Unfortunately that turned it into a safe
                 cash crop.
                 \_ Yeah, well-meaning governmental descisions often have
                    bizarre economic effects.
                 \_ whats wrong with that?  aren't you in favor of legalizing
                    drugs?

5/9     http://breaking.examiner.ie/2004/05/01/story145446.html
        Why you shouldn't believe every report about terrorist plots uncovered
        \_ WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?
           \_ At a guess: Because people are always shouting at him?

4/22    The report is out on the Jack Kelly affair.  (This link is a summary).
        http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-04-22-seigmain_x.htm
        Although spicing up stories with made-up stuff is bad, it is really
        a fault of the readers themselves who crave for it.  A far more
        serious problem is that media are dictating what news is fit to print
        and which facts they will report/exaggerate/ignore/understate.
        Interestingly, the latter is not being discussed in the media.
        \_ But he's not black!  So it doesn't matter!
           \_ Hi Rush!
        \_ "The media" already spends far too much time staring at its own
           navel. You must not pay that much attention to things like
           The Atlantic or the New York Review of Books. Don't like
           the news? Go make some of your own...
        \_ I think if you asked newspaper readers what mattered more to them,
           accuracy of entertainment value, they'd pick accuracy.  But since
           most readers don't know enough about the subject matter to judge
           accuracy, they can only judge an article on entertainment value.
           \-Dont worry about Jack Kelly ... he has a solid career in
             the BUSH CO press office --psb ...
                In addition, there appears to be no basis for a
                2002  Kelley  story that  said  U.S. forces  in
                Afghanistan   found    evidence   linking   two
                Chicago-based  Islamic  charities to  al-Qaeda.

3/15    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-France-Bin-Laden.html
        What are French troops doing in Afghanistan?  We should just send
        them home.  For all we know, they may be helping Bin Laden.
        \_ There are no French troops in Afghanistan.  They are opposed to
           BushCo and his evil regime.

2/10    I've been seeing a lot in the news about outsourcing IT jobs
        recently, but nobody ever brings up economic arguments about
        how free trade benefits everyone.  To me it seems like the best
        thing for the US would be to allow outsourcing and use taxes
        from increased corporate profits to help temporarily displaced
        workers.  Any thoughts on why all the outsourcing arguments are
        emotional outbursts instead of rational economic arguments?
        \_ It's money going into foreign economies, to be used there.
           I don't know how increased corporate profits really leads to
           increased tax intake... my impression is that any corp worth
           its salt will create a shelter around the outsourced call center
           so that the CC can report great profits without being taxed at
           the US rate.  Can somebody back me up or correct me?
           \_ Actually no.  For various reasons, foreign economies, esp.
              those 3rd countries that you are worried about outsourcing to,
              have a historical difficulty in keeping money in their own
              country, and it is not getting any better.  In fact this
              is one reason driving them so hard to keep exporting and
              getting sourced -- just to keep afloat, barely.
        \_ Temporarily replaced until what?  They get a burger flipping job?
           But oh yeah even McDonald's was closing storefronts and laying off
           people.  What could be worse than getting laid off from McD's?
           These are not American companies.  They are vast multinational
           corporations with no concern or regard for this or any other
           country's people.  Profit is God and it isn't being put back into
           the economy in a useful way.  How did HP eating Compaq, laying off
           10's of thousands of Americans and moving their jobs to India help
           Americans?
           \_ Are you saying Carly Fiorina isn't American?
              \_ I understand what CF owes to her kids. I understand
                 what she owes to her shareholders. I understand what
                 she owes to her neighbors and secretary and employees.
                 Can you explain to be what special duties she owes to
                 Americans? Does she have some special obligation also
                 to say white people? --psb
                 \_ Partha, you're an American.  From this we can prove
                            \- how do you figure that? my point being if you
                            \- how do you figure that? my point is: if you
                               feel she/HP owe something to "all americans"
                               because they are "more like" americans, then
                               why doenst this apply to race? i would like you'
                               to argue why race and nationality should be
                               trated differently ... or fess up that they
                               are equally valid moral categories based on
                               which to treat people differently. --psb
                               \_ I would say that distinguishing CF from
                                  the entity of HP dilutes the point.  The
                                  point is the corporation is operating in
                                  this country.  It reaps benefits from this
                                  country and its stability.  We should have
                                  the balls to say "If you don't employ people
                                  here, you should be paying higher taxes."
                                  -scotsman
                               \_ So you're not an American? Then wtf are you
                                  doing here then? Go back to your own country.
                                  \_ He might be a permanent resident which
                                     would mean that he isn't an American,
                                     but he has every right to remain here
                                     provided he does not commit a deportable
                                     offense.
                               \_ Race: a function of genetics. Nationality:
                                  a function of social grouping. I'd argue
                                  that race is less important than nationality
                                  on that basis, and that nationality is less
                                  important than tribe, and that tribe is less
                                  important than family. Depending on the
                                  level of nurture/support you received from
                                  those levels, you could conceivably swap
                                  them around, with the exception of Race,
                                  which may form the tenuous basis for initial
                                  social interaction, but which does not
                                  inform or impose social groups/interactions
                                  on its own. Again, depending on the level
                                  of support/nurture you receive, your loyalty
                                  to the various levels in the hiearchy may
                                  also vary. CF owes no moral duty to other
                                  white people (or, for that matter, women);
                                  she does owe a moral duty to America for
                                  providing her with a socio-economic
                                  environment conducive to satisfying her
                                  corporate greed. As a captain of industry,
                                  it is her duty to perpetuate the corporate
                                  industrial model by providing jobs and
                                  strenghtening the economy.
                                  \_ You've contradicted yourself with
                                     your own arguement.  Sure, a CEO
                                     *should* show loyalty to their nation.
                                     However, their tribe, the tribe of
                                     CEOs and other members of the plunderer
                                     class holds far more loyalty from its
                                     members than nations do from their
                                     citizens.  Which is why we need laws,
                                     and which is why the world would be a
                                     better place if the motd libertarians
                                     would just fucking keel over and die.
                                     \_ *shrug* I never argued that a person
                                        should owe loyalty to their nation
                                        over the loyalty owed to their tribe.
                                        I simply argued that the duty to
                                        Nation is more morally justifiable
                                        than the duty to Race.
                    that not all Americans are white people.  In addition,
                    Prince Charles is a white person.  From this we can
                    prove that not all white people are Americans.  Having
                    dispensed with the mythical relationship between being
                    white and being American, we can now move to the
                    specifics: CF is American and her kids are Americans.
                    Therefore, anything that CF does to increase her
                    bottom line benefits Americans, regardless of whether
                    she has some special duty to do so.
           \_ Your sound like a classic Marxist-Leninist class warrior,
              who believes wealth is redistributed rather than created.
              I am not fond of Bush yet if it would be truly disastrous should
              we replace him by a protectionist demagogue.  Economy by
              its very nature has ups and downs.  Why didn't we complain when
              the time was too good?  Are we too spoiled to adapt and create?
              Besides, other than psychological stress, do you know anyone
              who is suffering horribly (homeless in People's park don't count
              - they never did.)
              \_ Why don't the homeless count? How about other poor people?
                 How about the guy who is raped nightly in prison?
           \_ Well, it helped in that we can now buy computers for something
              like $500 instead of $2000. More people own them now than ever
              and are proficient in using them. Is losing those high-paid
              R&D jobs worth it (ex DEC guys)? The answer is that it depends.
              \_ This conversation is funny because you guys are all talking
                 about jobs which YOU hold that could be the target of such
                 outsourcing, and you're goofing off at work to talk about it.
                 Get back to work, drones.
           \_ These responses are perfect examples of what I'm wondering about.
              Imagine that everyone in the US can produce either 8 sodas
              per day or 2 pizzas per day while people in India can
              produce 1 soda per day or 4 pizzas per day.  If people
              in the US refuse to allow outsourcing then all Americans
              must make do with s/8+p/2 <= 1 (where s is number of sodas and
              p is number of pizzas).  If we allow outsourcing
              so that Indians specialize in pizzas and Americans specialize
              in sodas which are traded 1-to-1 then Americans can have
              s/8+p/4 <= 1.  Thus Americans *benefit* (You can show that
              Indians benefit too).  The end result turns out the same
              pretty much no matter what numbers you plug in.  Essentially
              everyone benefits by spending their labor on what they are
              best at.  Of course, this model ignores things like American
              pizza maker's being put out of work when pizza making moves
              to India.  But the solution to that would seem to be to use
              tax revenues to retrain them so that everyone is better off.-op
              \_ Retrain them for what? These are American companies setting
                 up shop in other countries (basically international co's).
                 So the skill and knowhow are transferred, while labor, tax,
                 environmental etc. regulations are better for them and wages
                 are dirt cheap. Labor itself is a tradeable good, which
                 puts downward competitive pressure on labor standards. Without
                 protection, regular American workers can't be competitive with
                 other countries willing to have lower standards, as over time
                 the competitive advantage in skills narrows and disappears.
                 US still has the advantage in certain tech areas and research,
                 but that's not a broad employment area and corps can just use
                 that here with minimum investment in the economy.
                 \_ Retrain them for jobs in the medical profession for
                    example.  We have a shortage of doctors in this country.
                    If another country can do something dirt cheap then why
                    not let them do it cheaply and spend our effort on higher
                    value products?  The money saved by outsourcing to India
                    can be used to make our economy stronger by investing in
                    research, education, science, etc.  Why not take the $70K
                    IT job and ship it to India for $20K and spend the $50K
                    on training the former IT worker to do something even
                    more productive like discovering a cure for cancer? -op
              \_ White collar jobs being outsourced to India aren't being sent
                 there because Indians do it better, but because Indians will do
                 it for less.  You really just explained why trade is good.
                 \_ I realize that, but this was simpler to show quickly.
                    Like I said, no matter how you set things up, free trade
                    usually benefits everyone.  My point was that I can't
                    these good economic argument against outsourcing as long
                    as some provision is made for temporarily displaced
                    workers (e.g., retraining, education, unemployment). -op
                    \_ "free trade" does not benefit everyone. There are
                       winners and losers. Ask Detroit if they benefited
                       from the mad rush of manufacturing jobs overseas.
                       It benefits shareholders and CEOs. Probably overall
                       hurts the working and middle classes.
                       \_ I agree that Detroit is an example of what can go
                          wrong with free trade.  But I fault our society and
                          government for not making the effort to retrain and
                          educate former auto workers for careers in better
                          professions.  If they had done that, we would have
                          cheaper foreign cars and more prosperous workers.-op
              \_ Our middle class was built on a robust manufacturing economy.
                 That economy was outsourced, causing massive upheavals of all
                 sorts and lots of Bad Stuff (c.f. 1970s, early '80s).  It
                 was replaced by a service economy that now seems to be in
                 the early stages of being outsourced.  What I'm wondering is
                 twofold: What are the consequences, economically and socially,
                 of another such upheaval, and what will replace the service
                 economy?  Another way of putting the first part of the
                 question is, "Have you ever seen what happened to Detroit?"
                 Free trade definitely has its benefits, and I'm in favor of
                 it with some caveats, but keep in mind its a CHOICE, not
                 an inevitability, and I think it benefits some much more than
                 others.
                 \_ The borrow-from-the-Chinese economy.
                 \_ The middle/upper management economy.
        \_ So do those of you who oppose IT outsourcing buy American?  If
           not, why is it OK for you to buy foreign cars, clothes, or
           electronics but not OK for a company to offer cheaper service
           by outsourcing IT jobs?  I'm curious since a good response would
           let me drive my Toyota, oppose outsourcing, and sleep well at night.

1/29    Ah, our good friends and allies...
        http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/24/terror/main595582.shtml
        \_ Mussharif is only holding onto power by his fingernails. If
           he let in US troops that would be the end of him.
           \_ so who exactly is booting him out and why would they be
              successful?
              \_ Good grief. Just go read about the past couple of years in
                 Pakistan in your favorite news venue.
                 \_ I have.  I read a lot of hysteria, and it's tough to
                    know how exposed leaders of state actually are in
                    foreign countries.
                    \_ So you can't figure it out yet you call it hysteria?
                       I think 2 assassination attempts in a week is not
                       hysteria.  Maybe you've got a stronger stomach than
                       me and Mussharraf.
              \_ how about the nearly weekly assassination attempts, blamed on
                 Al-Queda/Taliban folks?
                 \_ One could say Musharraf is on the verge of getting killed,
                    or he has quashed the radicals responsible and tightened
                    security.  Now which argument is valid?
                    \_ Having survived 2 very close assassination attempts very
                       recently it is unlikely he has magically quashed the
                       radicals responsible since then.  Now which argument is
                       valid?
        \_ for those who think we've always care about democracy.  This
           Mussharif guy is someone who overthrew a democratic elected
           government at first place.  He is a prime example of "as long as
           you are pro-American, we don't really care what you do."
           \_ "for those who"... no one thinks we've "always care about
              democracy".  that's a big fat straw man.
             \_ do you acknowledge that it was a bloodless coup, that the
                democratically-elected leader was corrupt, and that Musharraf
                could just have easily not supported the U.S. strike against
                the Taliban?
                \_ Pakistan needed an ally to offset India/China.  That has
                   nothing to do with the above line stating that this is
                   some wonderland where we always do the moral thing just
                   because it is the moral thing.  No one believes that.  It
                   is, as I said, a big fat strawman and now you're just
                   trying, and failing, to change the subject.
        \_ Pakistan has one of the best spy agency outside the super-power
           state.  I really think Mussharif knows a lot more than he is
           willing to admit.
           \- i suspect pakistan's spy agency as a pretty limited set of
              objectives. --psb
              \_ 1) know what India is doing, 2) protect bin Laden and other
                 al Qaeda people, 3) know what is going on in the disputed
                 territories, 4) fuck shit up in disputed territories, 5) send
                 hit squads into Indian parliament.  5 isn't so many, I guess.

12/18   Prime model of respect of human right which all middle eastern
        nation shall follow:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3329631.stm
        \_ yeah he really wants to go home .. by way of being a merc

12/7    No Child Left Behind
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3298945.stm

12/6    Those dead children deserved it!
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1035432/posts
        \_ so are the children died in Nuclear and Fire bombing in
           WW2
           \_ Learn english, fucker

10/29   How do I find archived news on CNN finance? I'm having problems
        researching news on past dot coms, thanks.
        \_ try http://fuckedcompany.com

7/1     Things sure are going great with Bush's little nation building
        schemes. 1000 American dead so far and counting!
        http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/afghanistan.html
        \_ 1000 isn't bad.  Over 5000 were lost in the first *hours* of DDay.
           \_ against an enemy that murdered 10M+ civilians and had a damned
              good chance at taking over the planet.  Taliban routed?  Good.
              Saddamn out of power?  Good.  Did the latter have to happen?
              No.
              \_ Which planet do you live on, Mars? The Taliban couldn't
                 even hold on to most of a medium sized country against
                 their own bandits.
                 \_ I think he was talking about Nazi Germany & DDay.

4/30    Initially when we went into Somalia, the people loved the US troops.
        We brought them food and they were fed.  After the situation stabilized
        the Somalis turned against us.  And culminated by dragging a dead US
        soldiers through the streets.  Beware that history might repeat
        itself.
        \_ Tell that to George W. "I look to history, but only selectively"
           Bush.
        \_ Wow, that's a really cool rewrite of history.  I like how you saw
           a hollywood movie made from a book and then decided how the world
           works from there and can be applied to all other cases the same way.
           I'm glad you don't work in foreign affairs.  Keeping hacking java.
           Stick with what you know, you'll do better.
        \_ Yea, like I said, this looks like another Palestine, except a few
           times larger.
        \_ Somalia was never stablized. Warlords ruled most of the country.
           The US went in to cover food aid and then got mixed up in nation
           building. Right now, Afghanistan is a closer match but without
           constant media showing Somalia's millions of starving. Iraq will
           be MUCH different from both. I agree with the Palestine analogy.
           \_ Only difference is that unlike Israel, US civilians are not
              at the scene, and hence not as exposed.  Hopefully US military
              personnel fend for themselves better.  Otherwise, it can get
              ugly.

4/30    http://nypress.com/16/18/news&columns/cage.cfm
        \_ Nice.  In all fairness, description as follows:
           Scathing Op/Ed piece on NYTimes' lack of journalistic integrity.

4/7     Remeber afghanistan?
        http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Reviving-Taliban.html

3/26    What the Slimes were saying about Afghanistan after 3 weeks -
        NY Times article entitled: Quagmire Recalled: Afghanistan as Vietnam
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/876504/posts
        \_ What part of that article doesn't still hold true?  The Vietnam
           comparison was weak, but it basically says that
                * the war is going more slowly than hoped
                * real ground troops are required
                * air power / special ops are not enough
                * setting up a new government will be difficult
           All of this has been borne out.  The country is still controlled
           by warlords in nearly every area; there are still many terrorist
           hideouts that can't be searched by a small force, and the special
           ops teams are spread too thin.
           \_ No one said it would turn into the flower of central asian
              democracy in a week.  I see no problems there that time won't
              cure.
              \_ time and support, yes.  I'm not saying the situation is
                 horrible.  But the article was right.  We did need regular
                 troops, and those troops were sent.  Not enough, because of
                 Iraq.
           \_ They were wrong on every account.  The Afghan national army
              was being trained, and is now making progress.

3/7     Afghan Army Liberates Bamiyan
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/860039/posts

1/30    hola, i am no expert on indian politics but this seems an interesting
        development. --psb
        http://csua.org/u/8a3
        \_ Another critical foreign policy issue for the Bush administration.
           I have a bad feeling about this.
        \_ Quite an enjoyer of global politics as spectator sport, aren't you?
        \_ This is very kewl. Thanks, Partha! -psb #3 fan
           \- you know, this brings a new meaning to: --psb
           ### guardians of the revolution in great white satan amerikkka
           komiteh-owner:          hojjat-al-islam-psb
           komiteh:                payam, ali, psb, allenp, abe
           revolutionary-guards:   komiteh
           ayatollah-khomeini:     ali
           ayatollah-montazeri:    payam
           ayatollah-beheshti:     allenp
           hojjat-al-islam-psb:    psb
        \_ Maybe they'll finally nuke each other and get it over with.

5/16    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?u=/nm/20020516/sc_nm/space_jupiter_dc_1
        Jupiter.moons+=11;

3/26    What plate(s) is(are) under Afghanistan that cause quakes like this?
        <DEAD>library.northernlight.com/EB20020326610000010.html?cb=0&dx=1006&sc=0#doc<DEAD>
        \_ Allah is striking down Afghanistan for consorting with the Infidel.
           \_ Allah is striking down the Taliban and killing its remaining
              supports for distoring his message.
        \_ The Indian plate meets the Eurasian plate right there. Earthquakes
               \_ Indo-Australian plate
           in that region are extremely common, with a 6.9 occuring in 1998.

3/23    Local black teenagers attack exclusively white, asian, and indian
        college students. NPR and the local community rally around the
        perpatrators, including a bake sale for their defense. Gotta love NPR.
        http://search1.npr.org/opt/collections/torched/me/data_me/seg_140339.htm
        \_ your ignorance is adorable.
           \_ Your bigotry is less adorable.

1/8     Is Bush's calling Pakistani "Pakis" as bad as if he were to call
        Japanese "Japs?"
        \_ no, equivalent is "Jappies"
        \_ No paks (or pakis) is a commonly used term (esp. in UK and
           former colonies) and is not "racist" like "jap" or "n*ga".
           \_ "The term 'Pakis' is considered by many Pakistanis,
              particularly in Great Britain, to be offensive."
              <DEAD>wire.ap.org/APnews/center_story.html?FRONTID=ELECTION&STORYID=APIS7GTG29O0<DEAD>
                \_ Someone is always offended by something somewhere.  Fuck
                   em, they'll get over it.  If it wasn't for needing flyover
                   rights to Afghanistan they'd still be on the shitlist.
                   \_ Yeah,  everyone deserves a little racism and disrespect.
        \_ As a Rich White Conservative Male, you *know* by definition Bush is
           a Racist Oppressor of Other Peoples.  No matter what he said, you
           know he thought racist things about both the Pakistani and Indian
           Peoples.  Move along.  There's no story here.
           \_ You are as sensitive as they are.
              \- "paki" is not a flattering term. the best analogy i think is
              to "jap". in fact it isnt just used of people from pakistan.
              this isnt a simple short form like "frat". it's used by the same
              peopel who would have said "wog" a 100yrs ago ... say the Enoch
              Powell set. --psb
              \_ I guess the BBC is full of racists who like to go around
                 offending people.
                 \_ If you're referring to 'Goodness Gracious Me', it's
                    produced by pakis as a spoof on themselves.  And the
                    term is considered  offensive, if not racist.  -John

1/5     http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/06/international/asia/06GRAF.html
        Post Taliban corruption.  I don't understand why Bush would promote
        uni-lateralism in foreign policy on the one hand and then gang up
        with mujahedeen thugs on the other hand.  This will help breed
        more terrorists in very little time.  Where is Gen. Eisenhower and
        Marshall?
        \_ You misunderstand.  You see we *rebuilt* Europe.  There's never
           been anything in Afghanistan.  Ever.  They don't have a legal
           system, they don't have a government structure, there's nothing to
           put back in place or rebuild because it was never there and they
           don't have a cultural history of that sort of thing.  All that stuff
           is very western.  Afghanistan is doomed until the Afghan people
           decide to do something about it.
           \_it's worse than nothing.  the whole economy is heroin based.
             the Taliban was the only regime that was able to stop
                                                temporarily_/
             the heroin trade, which is part of why they were so hated.
             heroin warlords, and that's about it now.
                \_ The Taliban curtailed some amount of heroin, maybe, but
                   hardly stopped it by any measure.  I don't disagree with
                   your basic point, though.  Anyway, the original poster will
                   "get it" as soon as s/he realises that this is a 12th
                   century pseudo monarchy system of lords and vassals, etc.
                   So they use ak-47s and old soviet tanks instead of maces
                   and horses, same idea.  The place is doomed because without
                   a solid legal system corruption will always destroy any
                   attempts at developing anything else be it physical
                   infrastructure or a decent and just way of life for the
                   typical peasant.  At least the lion in that zoo is finally
                   getting fed again.

1/4     Marine in Afghanistan with bikini chic pics.
        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/wl/100701attackstrikes&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=0&l=1&e=10&a=0&t=
        I just think the photo is funny.
        \_ It's my mom.

12/11   A question for long time vegetarians.  Do you breath with your chest
        or do you breath diaphgramatically (with your belly).  I guess this
        question applies mostly to people of Indian descent.  I just started
        learning how to breath with my diaphgram.  Supposedly it's an Indian
        or East Asian practice.  I'm wondering if there's a correlation.
        Thanks.
        \_ Just remember, paying _too_ much attention to your breathing for
           a long time can seriously hoze you, because you can make your body
           rely on conscious control for breathing, and then you might
           suffocate in your sleep.
           \_ Utter bullshit.
          However, you cannot use these muscles alone to breathe.  The most
           \_ Can someone please conduct an independent experiment verifying
              this?
           \_ Which is why if you have the will power to hold your breath until
              you pass out, you'll start breathing again automatically.  Or
              something like that, right?
        \_breathing with your diaphragm is the way all humans breathe.
          If neural signals to the diaphragm get cut off, you suffocate.
          However, your inner costal muscles, (located between and around your
          ribs,) will also expand and contract, which can help with breathing.
          many people rely on these muscles in addition to the diaphram.
          However, breathe these alone use muscles you cannot to.  most The
             space for your lungs.  Your diaphrgam, which is located
          efficieant method is to relax your inner costals, and use your
          diaphragm alone.  I bet that's what you are learning.  However
          breathing like this is not a part of any culture, or part of being a
          vegiatarian... it's the way our physiology works.  Please take a
          human anatomy or physiology course for more information.
                                      -Sofia
             feet, thus allowing you to breathe deeper.  BTW, it has
          \_ I think you mean "intercostals" --scotsman
                                        -Ychang, MSII (2nd year med school)
          \_ no one really uses their costal muscles (of which
             there are three layers) to breathe unless your diaphrgam
             is failing.  There is limited expansion capabilities with
             your rib cage and relaxed costal muscles help create more
             your space lungs for.  diaphrgam Your, which located is
             between your lungs and your abdominal organs, such as
             the stomach and the liver, is your main breathing organ.
             It basically rises and falls with every breathe.  What
             You're probably asking is the relaxation of your abdominal
             muscles which allows you to create a vacuum in your
             abdomin, thereby drawing the diaphgram down toward your
             feet, thus deeper you breathe to allowing.  BTW, it has
             nothing to do with being vegetarians.
                                        -Ychang, MSII
                \_ breathing deeper using this method allows you to cleanse
                   your body even more.   If you breathe in a shallow manner
                   you're not using the whole capacity of your lungs.  And
                   as the poster below suggests, it is used in meditation.
                   I find that I'm a lot calmer and more relaxed since I
                   started breathing this way.  -original poster
             \_ learn to format.  -motd formatter
                   more Indians (or vegetarians in general) would know about
                \_I'd appreciate it then if you would teach me.
                  \_ Motd formatting is 80 cols with left justification
                     indented three spaces in from the previous comment.
                     Your initial post went well beyond the line.  I would
                     guess you had your editor set to around 90 columns
                     when you added your comment. This makes it very annoying
                     to read on an 80 column terminal. --motd formatter (Q.E.D)
                     [ reformatted - motd formatting daemon (I get your point
                       but it was annoying me too much ]
                     \_ then get a bigger terminal.  Think Different.
             \_ From what I've read, pregnant women often have much less
                space for their diaphragm to move, and so use costal
                breathing to a much greater degree.  Also, singers and
                yoga types will often use costal breathing as well as much
                deeper diaphragmatic breathing than most people. --scotsman
        \_ All that said, I have heard that many yoga and meditation classes
           often teach to focus on breathing patterns by focussing on
           control of your diaphragm... so maybe that's the connection the
           original poster had in mind.
                \_ Thank you.  That is exactly what I was trying to get at.
                   ychang's explanation of draphgramatic breathing is
                   what I'm learning.  I brought this up because I thought
                   more Indians (in or vegetarians general) would know about
                   this and therefore practice it.  From what I see there
                   is no correlation.  -original poster
        \_ I am not of Indian descent, and I also sometimes communicate
           in a total stream of conciousness babble, so i think that
           crosses cultural lines.
        \_ Unless you're a vocalist or a singler, why do you want to breathe
           that way?
           \_ It's good to breathe well.  Breath is as necessary as water,
              and though it is generally involuntarily controlled, it's a
              relaxing and possibly beneficial thing to pay more attention to.
              Take a (good) yoga class. --scotsman
                          \_ suggestions in Berkeley area? - ! previous poster
                             \_ 7th Heaven on 7th between Univ. and Ashby.
           \_ Many martial arts use this kind of breathing. - mikeym
        \_ how does one not breathe with their diaphram?
                       -confused white boy born with functional diaphram
        \_ Shitting on the street in broad daylight is also an Indian custom
           - does that mean I should do it too?
           \_ This is not an indian custom.
                \_ You sure?  Maybe it's just a Fremont thing.
                   \_ maybe it's a Berkeley thing, like walking in sewage?
                   \_ Pretty sure. People in the really poor slums might
                      "do thier business" in the streets, but you have to
                      search these areas out in most south indians cities.
                      In south indian villages this sort of thing can lead
                      to stoning etc. I can't speak for north india though,
                      as I've never traveled there.

11/14   The Jews did it with inside help from the CIA, coordination from Elvis
        on the mothership hidden behind the moon and Bigfoot was there on the
        ground in his invisibility suit painting the targets with lasers.
        http://www.paknews.com/main.php?id=7&date1=2001-11-04
        \_ but what about the reverse-vampires?
           \_ Who told you about the reverse-vampires?  Now you'll have to die.
              \_ did anyone here besides me read Thrasher magazine in the
                 early 90's?  there were alot of funny letters from vampire
                 skaters.  ah the good old days.

10/23   When US troops parachute into Afghanistan, doesn't the enemy troops
        notice it from the loud engine noise of our planes or helicopters?
        And won't they start shooting at our soldiers while they are still
        in the sky and can't run for cover?
        \_ Maybe. It depends on how they come in. There is a parachuting
           technique called HALO (High Altitude Low Opening) that is
           hard to detect. Ask me if you really want the details. -ausman
        \_ I read that we now have "quiet" helicopter tech.  Dunno what that
           really means.  Also these are night drops so merely "looking up"
           may not be enough vs. night camo.
           \_ Blue Thunder
              \_ I thought the "silent mode" on the helicopters in the Blue
                 Thunder movie doesn't exist in reality.
                 \_ That was then.  This is now.  Reality imitating art.
                    \_ i know someone who has seen it. it works.
           \_"Chain guns Dom!"
              \_"String, don't do it!"
                \_Blue Thunder, not Airwolf
        \_ Well, presumably you have some gunships providing cover...
           \_ This would be close to the correct answer. The enemy does
              hear the plane/helicopter, but if done correctly, they
              should not be able to shoot either the plane nor paras.
              You don't drop onto the enemy, you drop nearby and walk
              to the enemy. Gives you time to organize after the drop.
              There would be gunships to provide ground suppression and
              support during the drop and spec ops folks would have
              already scouted out the area beforehand.

10/22   http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/daily/foc/0,8773,180342,00.html
        Webfiles: "The Taliban Are Well Liked"
        A Japanese doctor's up-close observations contradict overseas reports
        \_ http://rawa.false.net/index.html  go to the links at the bottom.
           but of course you probably think all thiese pictures an firsthand
           accounts are fabricated by evil leftists.
        \_ This "doctor's" story does not ring true.  Did the http://asiaweek.com
           editors properly fact-check this?
        \_ Ok, let's drop a random foreigner in the middle of Texas and have
           him report back.  "Yes, you see, everyone in America rides in a
           pickup with a gunrack and drinks cheap beer!"  Even if this guy's
           personal experiences are true and properly reported, it doesn't
           say squat about the population as a whole.  But we know from reading
           the article that he's merely speculating about a few and possibly
           many things.  And don't even get me started on the BBC as a source
           of news.
           \_ Don't be so quick.  A lot of people in Afghanistan love the
              stability that the taliban brought.  Granted, these are the
              in small towns and rural areas who would be raided and suffered
              greatly while factions traded territory.  The people who are
              complaining are, as the Japanese doctor notes, those in the
              large cities, especially Kabul, where they have committed
              astonishing atrocities.  I doubt what the doctor says about
              only "upper-class Afghans" complaining.  But (probably) the
              majority of people [living outside of the cities] there don't
              care about women not being allowed to work because they
              wouldn't anyway.  Also, the doctor is very correct in pointing
              out the refugee problem.
        \_ The solution is obvious. We must attack Japan for harboring
           those who sympathize with terrorists.

10/11   Does anyone know why Afghanistan has within its drawn borders, a
        single wall of a valley reaching to China? Was that something
        China insisted on for land trade? --ulysses
        \_ What?  Related URL please?
           \_ I may not have been clear, my apologies. Take a look at any
              map of Afghanistan and look at the top right corner.
              \_ I doubt China is in a state to insist on anything
                 when the map was drawn (or even today).  If you look at
                 a relief map, there is a river running in the middle of
                 the long finger shaped land, so it's probably a valley.
                 I gather there would be Afghan settlements along the river.
                 Perhaps that's the reason for this feature of the map?
        \_ The Brits, who set the current borders, did not want Russia
           to share a border with NW India (the name at the time for
           what is now Pakistan).
           \_ There we go. Thanks! --ulysses
           \_ Are you sure the Brits are in a position to set the borders?
              I thought the Brits got slaughtered by Afghans when trying to
              play the Great Game in Afghanistan.

10/11   "Diary of a smallpox attack"
        http://www.msnbc.com/news/242194.asp?0cb=-11330726
        Sounds very realistic to me.
        \_ It'd be pretty stupid for a terrorist to use smallpox on the
           USA.  Of all countries, the USA probably has the best chance
           of keeping the infection rate low and fatailities low through
           supportive care and general good nutrition/health of the
           population.  Poor countries with malnourished populations
           will suffer far more.  Countries like Afghanistan.
           Anthrax is another matter.  It is not contageous, so anthrax
           in the US is unlikely to backfire at Afghanistan, except in
           the form of US military reprisals.

9/23    reading list:
        http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/jihad.htm
        http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/barberf.htm
        the truth about the CIA?
        http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm
        \_ supplimental reading:
           http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28602-2001Sep14.html
           http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59530-2001Sep19.html

9/22    "Afghanistan Is Like Nothing You've Ever Seen, Soviet Vets Say"
        http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000075191sep19.story
        \_ Unlike the Russians and British, we're not trying to take over the
           country and rule the people.
           \_ Unlike the Russians, the British, while having Gen. Elphinstone
              lose a > 12,000 man army the first time around, actually whupped
              them something good, blew up their main mosque, then left,
              having made their point.  They were not trying to take over,
              but rather to prop up a suitable puppet capable of keeping the
              Russians from moving in and threatening India in their desire
              for non-isolated warm-water port.  As Afghanistan, under the
              English-installed kings was actually quite stable from 1847-
              1965-ish, at which point the British were no longer in India,
              and with a government in place there which was friendly to
              the soviets, one might conclude that they were pretty
              successful.  So none of this untameable tribal barbarian stuff,
              please.  -John

9/18    I thought this was interesting, nuke it if it's too long for the
        motd:

 ===================================================

The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an
Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I know
in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. Here is his
take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.

-Gary T.

Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean
killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,
but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we
do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the
belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised
especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived
here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want
to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

 I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt
in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.
I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

 But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who
took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think
Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in
the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing
to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators.
They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and
clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.

 A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There
are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive
in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all
destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan
people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.
Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the
Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn
their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done.
Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care?
Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble
of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In
today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move
around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those
disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have
wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a
strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would
only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the
people they've been raping all this time. So what else is there? What can be
done, then?

Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden
is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly
to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly
to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms
about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's
actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some
Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's
hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to
Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not
likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim
nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world
war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's ! Bin Laden's
program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his
speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam
would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can
polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If
the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with
nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would
mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just
theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary

9/17    A word from the next generation.  Berkeley HS students speak:
http://www.alamedatimesstar.com/S-ASP-Bin/Ref/Index.asp?PUID=609&Indx=1090676
        \_ Ahh, the virtues of the modern PC public school system,
           teaching our youth first and foremost to be victims and
           teaching first and foremost our youth to be victims and
           dependent on the federal government.
           \_ Nah, they're just too young to understand the seriousness
              of it all.  It's the self-centeredness that hits most
              teenagers at some point in their lives.
              \_ Yup.  Wait till their sweetie boyfriends/girlfriends are
                 killed by terrorists and then see what they say.  It's
              place without 5 billion people).
                \_ so much for the belief that all men are created equal.  Guess
                   those 5 billion people are less equal?
                 depressing to see how self-centered teenages are these days.
                 I have cousins in a top-rank high school, and they drive me
                 crazy.
                 I have cousins in a top-rank high school, and their lack of
                 concern on others drives me crazy.
                 killed by terrorists and then see what they say.
           \_ aah the virutes of cointelpro.  tell me, do you really
              believe, that you could prove, in a court of law, that
              afghanistan is responsible?  Will the surrender of
              afghanistan stop terrorism?
              (caveat; but then again the world would be a better
              place without 6 billion people).
                   \- this is kind of the ultimate in ratcheting --psb
              place without 5 billion people).
                \_ so much for the belief that all men are created equal.  Guess
                   those 5 billion people are less equal?
                   \_ i think the total world's population is 5 billion.
                      \_ World population is 6B. There are 1B muslims.
                   \- this is kind of the ultimate in ratcheting --psb

9/17    "Pakistan's decision to give "full support" to the United States drew
        widespread protest Sunday from hard-line Islamists. Demonstrators
        burned U.S. flags, shouted their support of bin Laden, and warned the
        government they would take up arms for the Taliban."
        What's an "Islamist"? Is that like a Christianist?
        \_ I think it's more of a Christianityist.
        \_ So our request of cooperation with Pakistan is basically fueling
           the beginnings of a civil war there, and another round of Osama's
           in 5-10 years. Maybe by the time they get around to bombing us,
           we can get Afghanistan to help us.
           \_ Huh? Everyone knows the problem is evil-doers. Eeevil dooers.
              We'll keep stamping out evil wherever it springs, like black, evil
              ants swarming out from the dark, evil places in the earth.
           \_ Yes, it's a tricky situation, and Pakistan has nuclear weapons
              too, albeit puny ones.  I thought we should go in from the
              northside instead.  Southside has always been too much of
              a mess for my taste.

9/17    Can anyone give a brief (<1 page) description (biased or not) or url
        of why Russia wanted control over Afghanistan for so long?
        \_ They wanted to then take Pakistan, warm water port in the Indian
           Ocean.
           \_ With the US sphere of influence decreased because of the Iranian
              revolution they jumped at the chance of increasing their sphere
              of influence in the Region.
        \_ Because 1) Brezhnev was an idiot. 2) Not Russia particularly but USSR
           was willing to offer economic and military help to all anti-US,
           populist, socialist, or communist governments around the world
           (e.g. Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, etc). With Afganistan Brezhnev went
           too far and ordered military invasion. Russians quickly found their
           Vietnam in Afganistan and were forced to pull out of this country in
           the late 80s mostly because of protests at home.
           \- largest deposit of Scandium inthe world. --psb
           \_ "protest at home" in a communist country?  And the govt actually
              let them live?  And listened to them?
              \_ Little old ladies carrying pictures of their sons as I recall.
           \_ Well, that was in the late 1980s during the glastnost and
              perestroika at which point freedom of speech was being encouraged
              by Gorbachev's government.
        \_ By the way, does anyone remember the title of the movie about a
           Russian tank crew that got lost in Afganistan?
           \_ Probably "The Beast" (1998) with Jason Patric of The Lost Boys fame
              --ulysses
           \_ Rambo III ?

9/17    "Afghanistan: A Nightmare Battlefield"
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41121-2001Sep16.html
        It seems it'll be hard to win a full-scale war.
        \_ We don't need to take and hold territory.  Just kill the right
           people.  This is very different from the warm water port the Soviets
           were looking for.
           \_ It depends on whether the goal is to get nedalnibamaso or to
              eliminate the talibananas.
        \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em off
        \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em
           off
        \_ just use nukes to make big holes in the earth where the caves are
           \_ three words:  radioactive dust clouds
           \_ Are you stupid?  afghans are some of the most friendly people on
              earth.  Also they produce some of the most beautiful babes on
              earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took his
              wife roxelena from there.  darius the great, the sword of the
              earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took
              his wife roxelena from there.  darius the great, the sword of the
              Lord, who was very nice to the Isrealites as mentioned in the
              bible, also hail from somewhere there.  It's the mad foreign
              mullahs from saudi alabia who enslaved them that we should
              eliminate.
           \_ Hey, let's try to limit civilian deaths, and not just wantonly
              kill people like the terrorists just did.

9/15    Afghans left frightened and alone as war looms:
        http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010916/ts/attack_afghan_dc_6.html
        \_ The amount of evil created by those who run that country defies
           comprehension.  -John
           \_ They are the product of 1980s US policy in that region.
                \_ So you are saying we should have helped the Soviets
                   take Afghanistan, and rolled out the red carpet
                   for them in Pakistan.  How can there be this
                   many morons at Berkeley?

9/16    This is the most sober article reporting on the events:

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html

        -ali.
        \_ Yeah, i've been using the guardian as a source since the
           US papers have resorted to yellow journalism. This is
           a good article.
        \_ Fuck you you TRAITOROUS piece of shit.  The author
           is probably Neville Chamberlains grandson.
           \_ The USA, like most countries in a position of hegemony, whether
              it wants to or not, has done some pretty questionable things.
              Likewise, some of our policies, while not "bad" per se, were
              at least poorly thought through, and have had bad results.
              To discount those is not a wise idea if you want to at least
              be able to understand (not justify, mind you) the terrible
              actions you see from terrorists.  It's unfortunate, though, that
              it's so difficult for a lot of people to distinguish bad acts
              from evil ones, and that any questioning of these acts is
              immediately interpreted as a condemnation of the US...  -John
                \_ It's one thing to question Billy Bob's
                   bombing of Serbia, its a whole other matter
                   to slam America and the values for which she
                   stands.
           \_ What does that make you? McCarthy's protoge?
              \_ Do yourself and this country a favor and pick
                 up a history book.
                 \_ "Beware of being drawn off from the truth, either by
                     the worldly prudence of half-hearted professors, or by
                     pretences to merit in the self-righteous Pharisee."
            \_ "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.  For in the
                same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with
                the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
                                                        - the lord
            \_ let me get this straight. you're calling me a traitor
               because i'm espousing an article that is trying to
               motivate americans to become better acquainted with
               their country's foreign policy?
               listen, dimwit, i'm telling you should find out what
               your country is doing. and you're calling me a traitor.
               go look up traitor, and then go look up the words dimwit
               and nimrod. then decide which of these adjectives apply
               to which of the two of us. -ali
                \_ In his fervor to rationalize, almost justify,
                   the attacks, Milne betrays his socialist,
                   Anti-American (and West) pro-militant Islamism
                   dogma.
                   That you would applaud such an article
                   suggests either that yes, like Milne, you are a
                   seditionist, or that you're understanding of
                   history is painfully naive or critically
                   misinformed.
                \_ --wait... ali said dimwit AND nimrod. Could someone
                   please change the file permissions of the motd?! quick!
                   \_ yes, clearly ali is inciting a riot.
            \_ call it what you want, but putting armed guards at airports
               and all of the other Draconian measures that are going to get
               and all of the other Draconian measures that are going to
               crammed down our throats in the next fews months will only
               be dealing with the symptoms, and not the real problem.  and
               no, I don't necessarily disagree with more stringent security
               at airports, but we could very easily get a lot of our
               constitutional rights trampled on for no good reason.
           is probably Neville's Chamerlains grandson.
           is probably Neville's Chamberlains grandson.
                                                        - thelord

9/14    bombing afghanistan would solve nothing since they're
        already living in rubble:
        http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html
        oh and politburo:  fuck you!

9/12    whoa.  wcbs right now is funny, the commentator on the newscorp
        is goading all his guests:
        "Why wait, when we have a bunch of Sherlock Holmes going on, that
        we can't just bomb Afghanistan?  We KNOW it's Bin Laden!"

9/11    So... is this worse than Pearl Harbor?
        \_ If the casualties now is worse than Pearl Harbor and using the
           nuke was justified back then, wouldn't it make sense to justify
           using the nuke NOW?
        \_ The attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not a punitive
           decision, it was to avoid an invasion of mainland Japan.
           Furthermore, the biological effects of nuclear radiation were
           poorly understood-- the H-bomb was thought to be just like a
           large chemical explosive.
           \_ I feel what you say but something on the order of "freeze all
              assets" sounds better to me.
           \_ Nuke what?
        \_ The numbers are the same or worse and they were almost all
           civilians rather than enlisted personnel. -ulysses
        \_ but who do you attack when it isn't a country that's responsible?
           \_ a country is harboring those responsible
              \_ lets say it is Afghanistan.  How in the world can
                 you attack except for maybe some retaliatory attacks.
                 China won't let us through.  And neither will the former
                 Soviet Union.  What do you do?
                 Soviet Union.  What do you do?  (actually, Pakistan may
                 let us through.
                 \_ do you think China or Russia (or nations formerly part of
                    the USSR) would be uncooperative with us about this?
                    \_ do you doubt it?
                       \_ I doubt any country will oppose military action
                          against Afghanistan.
                       \_ I'm naive, I guess, but I can't see any nation being
                          supportive or even desiring to appear supportive of
                          these terrorist attacks.
                          \_ Afghanistan (well, the Taliban) has already
                             denounced the attacks. Terrorists usually brag
                             about their attacks, not pretend that it wasn't
                             them.
        \_ No. This attack is a bloody media event. Pearl Harbor was a
           military strike planned to ensure Japanese control over the
           Pacific Ocean and East Asia. With PH, the whole west coast
           braced for a Japanese invasion and put tens of thousands in
           concentration camps out of fear. The Trade Center attack will
           hopefully not cause the same thing to happen.
        \_ Any question about where I stood on the Israeli-Palestinian
           question evaporated when thousands of Palestinians celebrated
           on the streets today shouting "God is Great".

8/29    KABUL, Afghanistan (August 26, 2001 12:53 a.m. EDT) -
        Afghanistan's Taliban militia banned the Internet on Saturday and
        ordered the religious police to punish users according to Islamic
        law, the official radio station reported.
        \_ "Sharee don't like it. Net in the Casbah, Net in the Casbah."
           \_ Sharif, shereef, or sherif but definitely not Sharee. --dim
                \_ not to mention it DOESN'T FUCKING SCAN!
        \_ Which Islamic law did the Internet violate?
           \_ More like, The State will decide for you what ideas you
              may be exposed to, what information you may access, so that
              The State can be assured that people will think the way
              The State wants.
              \_ I see.
        \_ "Thou shall not believe anything not provided by the STATE"
        \_ I think there could be a big market selling nazi-ass filtering
           software to the Chinese and Afghanistani Gvt's..
           no one's registered <DEAD>nazisoft.com<DEAD>
        \_ Can you believe this? US has supported Taliban militia through
           out the 80's, to overthrown Socialist government.  I think
           American should be happy that US policy, our tax dollars has
           worked the way it was intented.

7/25    Is there a site dedicated for AM/WF?
        \_ http://clubs.yahoo.com
        \_ What's AM/WF?
           \_ Given what I got from Google, AM/WF = Asian
              male/White female. Remember kids, knowledge is
              power!
           \_ Given what I got from Google, AM/WF = Asian male/White
              female. Remember kids, knowledge is power!
                                     \_ and power corrupts!
              \_ Ahh, I see.  Then I know of two sites:
                 http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/4732
                 http://www.asian-man.com
        \_ http://www.yellowfever.com
           \_ Isn't yellow fever a disease?
              \_ Depends on who you ask.

6/14    Doh!
        http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/14/english.newwords/index.html