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| 5/24 |
| 2006/7/27-30 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43815 Activity:low |
7/26 What are some of the reasons why hybrid fans prefer to buy
Toyota Priuses instead of Honda Civic hybrids? What's wrong
with the Honda Civic hybrid?
\_ One reason that I can think of is that Toyota has (or used to have,
before the recent recalls) better reputation than Honda in terms of
reliability. BTW, how do the gas mileages compare?
\_ Which hybrid has better reliability?
\_ The Prius has better tech. Read up on it.
\_ Bullshit. I believe you that it has better tech, but I'm
not prepared to believe that large scale consumer trends have
any bearing on such things. The prius is a fad car right now,
so people buy it. It's like back in 1988 when everyone was buying
Kevin Staab decks even though they had way too much concave.
Kevin Staab decks for their skateboards.
\_ Who? Skateboards? 1988?
\_ I think it was 1988, it could have been 87 or 89.
\_ which translates to real gas mileage of 46-50+ mpg, whereas
the Civic Hybrid's real gas milesage is ~ 36-40 mpg.
the Prius also has nearly the same interior space as a Camry.
also, I believe all the online databases which show 46 mpg
for the Civic Hybrid is just from driving on the freeway.
\_ 36-40 mpg for a small hybrid sedan sucks. Fifteen years ago
I had a beat-up 1987 Ford Escort that wasn't in good
condition (burned oil), and I was getting about 38mpg.
\_ My brother's old Civic did better than 40 MPG.
\_ Damn. I'm still driving a '91 Civic hatchback and it's
always done 25 mpg. Probably because I drive it like
a rice car.
\_ And if the modern Civic had circa 1987 levels of structural
reinforcement, airbags, equivalent power, etc, this would
be a good claim.
\_ Good point. Never thought of that. -- PP
\_ So two decades of internal combustion engine
advancement, plus going hybrid, plus the difference
between American make and Japanese make, is still not
enough to offset two decade's worth of bells and
whistles?
\_ Whatever happened to the Insight, I thought it was the king of
mileage.
\_ It's in a different category from Civic Hybrid and Prius because
it's a two-seater.
\_ http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445
(Summary: Is the new Civic Hybrid better than the old Prius?
Nice try, but no cigar)
http://csua.com/?entry=40048
(Summary: 2 year old Prius technology is better than the
brand new Civic Hybrid technology )
http://csua.com/?entry=43191
(Summary: old Prius=~new Civic+1, or old Prius>new Civic)
http://csua.com/?entry=43192
(Honda says something to the effect "Oh, we thought people wanted
hybrids because they want to go fast so we supercharged our
Accord Hybrid. But seeing how badly our hybrids sell, we now
realize that people want the mileage and not the power")
(Honda says something to the effect "Oh, I guess people buy
hybrids because of the high mileage and not the horsepower.
I guess we fucked up.")
\_ I won't buy a hybrid with low horsepower.
\_ That's because you're a dumb ass American who loves the
SUV and suburbia. BTW how is Southern Cal?
\_ Then you'd be better off buying a sportscar, since the
typical hybrid is not as cost effective AND not as fast as
say, a Porsche. There's a reason why Accord Hybrids are
sitting on the dealer lot on an average of 6 months vs.
a mere 4 days for Prii. Dumb asses buy Accord Hybrids.
\_ "Prii" :-)
\_ Well, dumb asses buy hybrids in general.
\_ So how is Southern California? Do you have the biggest
suburbian home and the biggest SUV? How's 710 and
405 and the weather treating you?
\_ Love the weather. The weather in the Bay Area blows.
It's the main reason I left.
\_ There are those who buy hybrids to save money, and there
are those who buy hybrids to save fuel. Don't confuse
are those who buy hybrids to save energy. Don't confuse
the two. (And then there are those who buy hybrids to
look cool, and also there are those who buy small
hybrids because of their big-penis syndrome.)
\_ I think both categories are probably dumb asses.
I wonder if the average hybrid owner is in favor
of or opposed to nuclear power.
\_ I want a Sienna Hybrid. |
| 5/24 |
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| www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445 You know, the employee who has seemingly done no wrong since coming onboard. Every decision he makes turns into profits and every review comes with a healthy raise or promotion attached. But after a few years, the mountains of praise start to annoy coworkers. His nicer attributes fade into the past while his flaws start to irritate you. So when a worthy challenger emerges from the ranks, it's no surprise people are pulling for the new guy. And so it is with our latest matchup between front-wheel-drive four-door sedan hybrids. It's the reigning champ, the 2005 Toyota Prius, versus the all-new 2006 Honda Civic. History repeats itself Among hybrids, the second-generation Toyota Prius has had an inspired run since its introduction in 2004. It's not an overstatement to say that the eras of hybrid cars in North America could be described as "Before Prius" and "After Prius": BP and AP BP hybrid buyers faced huge compromises in driving performance and comfort for better mileage. They got smirks from others on the highway for the strange look of their car. AP hybrid buyers could top 50 miles per gallon in comfort, accelerate to highway speeds without causing a backup, see their car make appearances on HBO's Curb Your Enthusiasm and pull limo duty at the Academy Awards. The Inside Line staff logged thousands of miles in its long-term Prius since 2004. And dependable Toyota performance, incredible mileage and surprising high-end features became just another part of daily life. The Prius had lapped its predecessor, which suffered from a lack of acceleration and a conventional design. With the new era upon us, Honda had its work cut out for it with the new 2006 Civic hybrid. With gas prices well over $2 per gallon, the company now had the immediate interest of a large pool of curious consumers who expected nothing less than perfection from their hybrid. After the conventional 2006 Civic passed through our garage, we had high hopes that this new Civic hybrid would leapfrog its first generation just as the Prius had done to its predecessor. Close, but no (eco-friendly) cigar At first blush, it appeared the 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid would not only jump past the 2005 model, it would win our hearts away from the champ Prius -- keyless entry and all. From the moment we climbed in and turned the key, the Civic helped us forget about how great a leap the Prius was only two years ago. And it reminded us of all you didn't get with the Toyota: world-class handling from a tighter overall suspension and, more than anything, a design that left people knowing you were driving a new car -- not an escape pod. Scuttlebutt around the office was that the Prius was about to get its walking papers. But just as any office rumor, this one was eventually proven false. After "upper management" got its hands on the facts -- the Prius was 2 seconds quicker from zero to 60, got better overall fuel economy, and offered a plethora of cool features not available on the Civic -- the gossip mill was shut down and the Civic was passed over for promotion while the Prius kept its corner office and parking space. Still surprisingly torquey though - davhan May 19, 2006 Correct. Nevertheless thanks to the electric motor assistance it has a surprising amount of low end torque. On looking at some other car manufacturer sites the average 18 - 20l engine... |
| csua.com/?entry=40048 Their engines suck, their electric moter is weak, their mileage is lower, and it's only $300 cheaper. Picture a team of 13 horses attached to the front of your car. On the Civic, its used to augment the power of the gas engine so they can use a smaller more efficient gas engine than on a conventional Civic. com/s/ap/20060506/ap_on_bi_ge/gas_prices_ap_poll I really don't understand this. On average gas price is 5-10% of a person's income whereas housing is about 50% (and in coastal cities, 75%). com/s/ap/20060322/ap_on_bi_ge/fuel_economy Bush works hard to improve fuel economy. Instead of building endless unplanned suburbs, how about encouraging developers to build sustainable and more efficient cities that require less driving? com/Disable-Reverse-Beep-in-a-Toyota-Prius How to disable the annoying reverse beep in a Toyota Prius \_ I like how we're now creating technology for which superstitious-looking shamanistic actions now hold weight. I want to try to get it before the HOV carpool sticker quota runs out. I realize that most of the discussions are about economy (Prius does NOT save you money) and that for the same price I can get a bigger and faster car, or for a much lower price I can get something that has ... Another one refuses to give me a price unless I show up at their dealership. Has anyone actually gotten a Prius for lower than MSRP, and if so, where did you go? com Awesome site with DB & actual numbers from consumers. i thought it got more like 38 mpg to the Prius's 48 mpg \_ Yeah, it's a pretty big difference. html Not all options are available separately and some options and accessor ies may not be available in all regions of the country. So please contac t your Toyota dealer, who can help locate the vehicle that's right for y ou. For details on vehicle specifications, standard features and available equipment in your area, contact your Toyota dealer. A veh icle with particular equipment may not be available at the dealership. A sk your Toyota dealer to help locate a specifically equipped vehicle. All information presented herein is based on data available at the time o f posting, is subject to change without notice and pertains specifically to mainland USA vehicles only (may differ in the state of Hawaii, Pu erto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and in other regions). Not all options are available separately and some options and accessor ies may not be available in all regions of the country. So please contac t your Toyota dealer, who can help locate the vehicle that's right for y ou. For details on vehicle specifications, standard features and available equipment in your area, contact your Toyota dealer. A veh icle with particular equipment may not be available at the dealership. A sk your Toyota dealer to help locate a specifically equipped vehicle. All information presented herein is based on data available at the time o f posting, is subject to change without notice and pertains specifically to mainland USA vehicles only (may differ in the state of Hawaii, Pu erto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and in other regions). Not all options are available separately and some options and accessor ies may not be available in all regions of the country. So please contac t your Toyota dealer, who can help locate the vehicle that's right for y ou. For details on vehicle specifications, standard features and available equipment in your area, contact your Toyota dealer. A veh icle with particular equipment may not be available at the dealership. A sk your Toyota dealer to help locate a specifically equipped vehicle. All information presented herein is based on data available at the time o f posting, is subject to change without notice and pertains specifically to mainland USA vehicles only (may differ in the state of Hawaii, Pu erto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and in other regions). Standard P185/65R15 Spare Temporary Please remember, some vehicles are built with popular option combinations . Not all options are available separately and some options and accessor ies may not be available in all regions of the country. So please contac t your Toyota dealer, who can help locate the vehicle that's right for y ou. For details on vehicle specifications, standard features and available equipment in your area, contact your Toyota dealer. A veh icle with particular equipment may not be available at the dealership. A sk your Toyota dealer to help locate a specifically equipped vehicle. All information presented herein is based on data available at the time o f posting, is subject to change without notice and pertains specifically to mainland USA vehicles only (may differ in the state of Hawaii, Pu erto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and in other regions). Not all options are available separately and some options and accessor ies may not be available in all regions of the country. So please contac t your Toyota dealer, who can help locate the vehicle that's right for y ou. For details on vehicle specifications, standard features and available equipment in your area, contact your Toyota dealer. A veh icle with particular equipment may not be available at the dealership. A sk your Toyota dealer to help locate a specifically equipped vehicle. All information presented herein is based on data available at the time o f posting, is subject to change without notice and pertains specifically to mainland USA vehicles only (may differ in the state of Hawaii, Pu erto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and in other regions). htm Research used cars NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The Honda Insight, a gas-electric hybrid car, edge d out the Toyota Prius as the most fuel-efficient vehicle in the US, a ccording to new mileage ratings from the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Energy. Both get an estimated 60 miles per gallon in city driving. The Insight, a two-seat car, gets an estimated 66 miles an gallon on the highway, though, while the Prius gets 55 miles per gallon. The Prius, a four-seat car that's classified as mid-sized, uses a differe nt hybrid system that delivers better mileage in stop-and-go driving tha n in steady highway cruising. The EPA's fuel economy figures are based on laboratory tests. Drivers in real-world conditions generally report lower actual mileage. Mileage estimates for the redesigned 2006 Honda Civic hybrid are not yet available. The 2005 version ranked fourth overall last year, behind two versions of the Insight and the Prius. The Prius is the most efficient "mid-sized" sedan by a wide margin. The H yundai Elantra is listed as the most efficient non-hybrid mid-sized seda n It gets an estimated 34 miles per gallon on the highway and 27 in the city. Diesel-powered cars from Volkswagen took the top spots in the "compact" a nd "sub-compact" car categories. The diesel VW Beetle with manual transm ission is the most efficient sub-compact and the VW Golf diesel, which i s built on the same vehicle structure as the Beetle, is the most efficie nt compact. Both get an estimated 44 mpg on the highway and 37 in the ci ty. The Beetle and Golf tied for third in overall mileage rankings. Among SUVs, the Ford Escape hybrid is the most efficient. The Mercury Mariner hybrid and Mazda Tribute hybrid are very similar and get the same mileage. |
| csua.com/?entry=43191 com/Disable-Reverse-Beep-in-a-Toyota-Prius How to disable the annoying reverse beep in a Toyota Prius \_ I like how we're now creating technology for which superstitious-looking shamanistic actions now hold weight. I want to try to get it before the HOV carpool sticker quota runs out. I realize that most of the discussions are about economy (Prius does NOT save you money) and that for the same price I can get a bigger and faster car, or for a much lower price I can get something that has ... Another one refuses to give me a price unless I show up at their dealership. Has anyone actually gotten a Prius for lower than MSRP, and if so, where did you go? com/id/12958916/site/newsweek/page/2 See, Honda fucked up and it doesn't take a PhD MBA to figure ... com Mad market for used fuel-sippers In an atmosphere of high fuel prices, the market for used cars with high fuel mileage has gotten red hot For example, a 2005 Toyota Prius that, when new, had a sticker price of $21,515 could now sell for $25,970, even with 20,000 miles on the odometer, according to data from Kelley Blue Book. Since Toyota dealers usually charge a few thousand dollars over sticker for new Priuses, the buyer in this example probably wouldn't have made a profit, but nearly so. Honda Civic Hybrids are also sporting near-immovable resale values. The 2007 model will be available early next year in California, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Rhode Island, Maine and New Jersey, Nissan said in a statement. Sales are being limited to states that have adopted versions of California's so-called zero-emissions vehicle mandate, which requires the largest automakers to offer hybrids, spokesman Kurt Von Zumwalt said. Oil smashes $75 barrier Oil smashed through record highs Friday, cruising past $75 a barrel on continued fears of a supply disruptions in Iran and Nigeria and reports of spot gas shortages on the US East Coast. Toyota plans to sell ethanol cars in US by 2008 Toyota Motor Corp. plans to sell ethanol-powered vehicles in the United States by 2008, following the lead of domestics General Motors Corp. Toyota is still keen to spread the use of hybrid vehicles, which save fuel by twinning a conventional engine with an electric motor, the spokeswoman said. |
| csua.com/?entry=43192 com/id/12958916/site/newsweek/page/2 See, Honda fucked up and it doesn't take a PhD MBA to figure that out. They made no secret that it was a hybrid for performance reasons... Like the above poster says, though, people like me are probably looking higher end than Accord. However, too high end and the consumer doesn't care what the economy is. com/Disable-Reverse-Beep-in-a-Toyota-Prius How to disable the annoying reverse beep in a Toyota Prius \_ I like how we're now creating technology for which superstitious-looking shamanistic actions now hold weight. I want to try to get it before the HOV carpool sticker quota runs out. I realize that most of the discussions are about economy (Prius does NOT save you money) and that for the same price I can get a bigger and faster car, or for a much lower price I can get something that has ... Another one refuses to give me a price unless I show up at their dealership. Has anyone actually gotten a Prius for lower than MSRP, and if so, where did you go? com Awesome site with DB & actual numbers from consumers. i thought it got more like 38 mpg to the Prius's 48 mpg \_ Yeah, it's a pretty big difference. com/id/12958916/site/newsweek/page/2 This week, Honda revealed that it is developing a new hybrid coming in 2009 that will be cheaper than a $22,000 Prius and smaller than a Honda Civic (though it is still expected to seat five). What has Honda learned from the sputtering Accord hybrid? "It's about fuel economy, stupid," says Honda senior vice president John Mendel. If I'm going to pay the hybrid up-charge, I want better fuel economy." Toyota officials insist there's nothing wrong with its hybrid strategy, even though they've also slapped a cut-rate financing deal on the Highlander hybrid to get it moving. But they do acknowledge they're considering tinkering with the Highlander's styling to make it stand out more as a hybrid. Other than the Prius, most hybrids are nearly indistinguishable from other cars on the road, with nothing more than a small badge on the back or perhaps a special spoiler to denote it's a green car. Well, it turns out that hybrid drivers would like everyone else on the road to know that they are saving the planet (even if they're not saving that much at the pump). So future hybrids will be customized to look different than their nonhybrid counterparts. "The Prius makes a statement that gives people a feeling of pride in owning a hybrid vehicle," says Toyota spokesman John Hanson. "We've learned the Highlander hybrid owner wants to make that statement, too." Besides the cosmetics and economics, there's another complicating factor for calculating whether a hybrid is worth it: the Environmental Protection Agency's mileage mythology. As many drivers have discovered, the EPA mileage on the window sticker of a new car is miles from reality. For example, the Prius promises 60mpg, but Consumer Reports found it only gets 44 mpg. The EPA is now rejiggering its outdated methods for estimating mileage-which, among other things, don't factor in using the air conditioner or driving above 40mph. But until those come out next year, the stickers on the windows of hybrids will continue to be off by 30 percent or more. Consumer Reports this week released a new poll showing that one third of car buyers say that high gas prices are driving them into more fuel-efficient cars, primarily hybrids. The problem, say dealers, is that once consumers get to the showroom, they realize hybrids aren't such a good way to save on gas after all. "Hybrids have gone soft because people are doing the math," says Toyota dealer Gordon Stewart. When the price premium falls below $2,000, analysts say the payoff will come quicker (if you factor in the hybrid tax credit you receive which ranges from $650 to $3,150, depending on the model). For now, the new Toyota Camry hybrid has the lowest premium of about $2,600, and dealers say buyers are lining up for it. Honda says it is working to radically shrink the size of its batteries and other hybrid components, which will vastly improve gas mileage. And as more hybrid models hit the market, prices are bound to drop as the competition heats up. That's why analysts project that hybrid sales will nearly quadruple to 750,000 units by 2010. Still, even at those lofty sales, hybrids will only account for 4 percent of US auto sales. SUVs, by then, will still represent about one fifth of the market. If you're really interested in saving money at the pump this summer, there is a far cheaper way. Go out and buy one of the new little gas-sippers hitting the market now. The Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris and Nissan Versa get up to 40mpg and start at less than $15,000-at least five grand cheaper than the least expensive hybrid. If you want to buy American (sort of), consider the Chevy Aveo (built in Korea), which gets 35mpg on the highway and starts at under $10,000. These cars might not dazzle your friends with their sci-fi technology. But the payoff at the pump comes right away, not a long way down the road. |