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| 5/23 |
| 2006/1/6-9 [Reference/Religion] UID:41261 Activity:moderate 76%like:41260 |
1/6 Since several threads touched upon this, for a Christian perspective
on loss and suffering, I suggest starting with the Book of Job.
Also, for those who've heard the beautiful hymn "It is Well With My
Soul", written in the 1870s by a Chicago businessman after
he lost all five of his children, here's a link to the story:
http://www.geocities.com/cott1388/spafford.html
Here's the lyrics for the song:
http://my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis2/soul.html
http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh377.sht
Another related hymn is "God Hath Not Promised":
http://members.warpnet.net/karin/images/zgodprom.html
http://my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis/godhathnotpromised.mid
A Chinese hymn:
http://christianstudy.com/data/hymns/text/c1423.html
\_ The story of Job is a somewhat ironic starting place. Job's loss
and suffering were brought about by God in an act of what can only
be termed vanity.
\_ The moral I got is that while being Job sucks at least you're
alive. Being #2 to Job from the POV of g-d meant you're just
so much fodder.
\_ When a person suffers from inconsolable suffering and loss,
he may believe in one of the following:
(1) It is all blind chance and he just had bad luck.
(2) God is punishing him (even if he was righteous?), or the
person brought it upon himself.
(3) God allowed this to happen, and God sees his suffering.
The suffering is temporary (either in this life, or
in heaven). It is for a purpose, even if we may not
see it now.
Another related chapter is John 9.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209;&version=31;
\_ I go with the former director of the National Mine Academy:
(4) The Dubya administration's relaxed enforcement of mine
safety led to the mine not being closed (which had many
citations), and those miners' deaths were unnecessary.
\_ And, pending further investigation, I would agree with
you on this specific case. Mine safety is also a big
issue in China, where the safety records of the coal
mines are just appalling. Being irresponsible with
regard to the safety of others is a direct violation of
what Jesus teaches: "To love others as one loves thyself."
\_ So you'll masturbate me, too? -tom
\_ "Do not grant the evil their desires" Psalm 140:8
\_ What logical people should see is that if the end result is
the same, it doesn't matter if there's a God. It doesn't
matter if He's capricious, apathetic, you're part of His
inconceivable master plan, or He doesn't exist. If in every
possible tangible way the outcome is the same, then His
existence is irrelevant. And since reality behaves in a manner
which does not correspond to an unfiltered reading of the
Bible, there is no reason to use the Bible as an accurate
description of God. Therefore if we've got no reliable
description and no evidence of action, there's really no reason
to believe in an ancient, politically motivated fabrication
like God.
\_ This is not what the Bible says or teaches, nor should
it be the experience of someone who walks with God.
\_ The Bible doesn't teach that it's irrelevant and so is
God? Surprise?
\_ You don't read the bible nor follow what the
bible teaches, and you claim that you cannot see
any "evidence".
\_ I have read the Bible cover to cover probably
four times. It is full of bad advice,
inconsistencies, and paints God as a very "do as
I say, don't do as I do" sort of fellow. Modern
moderate Christians only come up with a bearable
moral code by ignoring an awful lot of badness
littered all throughout the Bible. This is what
moral code by cherry-picking what they like from
the whole of the Bible. This is what
I meant about an "unfiltered reading".
\_ Tell me an instance of what Jesus did or said
that you disagreed with. Or where he did not
do what he said.
\_ Jesus' views on slavery: Luke 12:47
off the top of my head. And why are we
limiting ourselves to the NT? Christians
quote morality from the OT all the time.
Hell, this whole thing started with Job.
\_ The verse is about a servant who beats
other servants (see 12:45) and hence
deserves to be punished. Are you
saying it's okay for him to beat other
servants? Let's talk about Jesus
first.
\_ English translations of the Bible
dishonestly use the term "servant".
They were slaves. This is a parable
context (and 12:48 calls for "just
a little beating" for the others), the
point is that something that is a
clear moral evil is not commented on by
the omniscient son of God.
\_ Clearly it's not a moral evil! The
South was right.
\_ I disagree. The parable is
about watchfulness, and the point
is that we should not be
complacent with God's teachings
and commit evil thinking that
judgement and punishment will not
come. The servant who knows "the
master's will" (i.e. the word of
God) and yet commits evil will be
punished with "many blows". The
servant who does not know the
master's will (presumably not following
his own conscience?) will be
punished with "few blows". As for
slavery, the Bible says we are all
under the slavery of sin, and God
wants to free us from its power
through Christ.
As for servant vs slave. I don't
think it's as clearly defined
historically as you imply.
master's will (presumably not
following his own conscience?) will
be punished with "few blows". As
for slavery, the Bible says we are
all under the slavery of sin, and
God wants to free us from its power
through Christ. As for servant vs
slave. I don't think it's as
clearly defined historically as you
imply. I mentioned before that I
don't believe Jesus is omniscient,
not when he is on this world. One
I mentioned before that I don't
believe Jesus is omniscient, not
when he is on this world. One
does not have to be omniscient to
lead a life without sin.
\_ Does it bother you that the
Bible not only condones but
seems to support slavery?
\_ Wasn't Exodus about how
God led the Israelites
out of slavery in Egypt?
Have you heard of the
Quaker movement to abolish
slavery, or the Society for
the Abolition of the Slave
Trade?
\_ But Quakers do it in spite
of the Bible, not because
of.
\_ I think you got it
reversed. |
| 5/23 |
|
| www.geocities.com/cott1388/spafford.html so costly a sacrifice midi on this page PEACE LIKE A RIVER When peace like a river, attendeth my way; Whatever my lot, thou hast taught me to say, It is well, it is well with my soul. Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come, Let this blest assurance control, That Christ hath regarded my helpless estate, And hath shed His own blood for my soul. My sin, not in part, but the whole, Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more. And, Lord, haste the day when our faith shall be sight The clouds be rolled back as a scroll, The trumpet shall sound, and the Lord shall descend; When Peace, like a River A Grief So Overwhelming The Heart Would Almost Break In 1871, tragedy struck Chicago as fire ravaged the city. When it was all over, 300 people were dead and 100,000 were homeless. Horatio Gates Spafford was one of those who tried to help the people of the city get back on their feet. A lawyer who had invested much of his money into the downtown Chicago real estate, he'd lost a great deal to the fire. And his one son (he had four daughters) had died about the same time. Still, for two years Spafford--who was a friend of evangelist Dwight Moody--assisted the homeless, impoverished, and grief-stricken ruined by the fire. After about two years of such work, Spafford and his family decided to take a vacation. They were to go to England to join Moody and Ira Sankey on one of their evangelistic crusades, then travel in Europe. Horatio Spafford was delayed by some business, but sent his family on ahead. He would catch up to them on the other side of the Atlantic. Off Newfoundland, it collided with an English sailing ship, the Loch Earn, and sank within 20 minutes. Though Horatio's wife, Anna, was able to cling to a piece of floating wreckage (one of only 47 survivors among hundreds), their four daughters--Maggie, Tanetta, Annie, and Bessie--were killed. Horatio received a horrible telegram from his wife, only two words long: "saved alone." Spafford boarded the next available ship to be near his grieving wife, and the two finally met up with Dwight Moody. Though reports vary as to when he did so, Spafford was led during those days of surely overwhelming grief to pen the words to one of the most beautiful hymns we know, beloved by Christians lowly and great. Though not yet (to my knowledge) in Catholic hymnals, it has long been a favorite of Baptists (and other evangelicals) including Martin Luther King. Who can say what it is about life that leads us to such a peace ... Who can say what ingredients it takes, for this person or that, that transforms such overwhelming sadness into personal peace, or brings healing, or ... Langston spoke of his people, whose souls had grown .... And for each one, whatever the answer is, it comes in a kind of poignant solitude unapproachable in any other way. we love you Debbie The Rose Still Grows Beyond the Wall "I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts, that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any words of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering to you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save. I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours, to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of Freedom." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P Basler, Volume VIII, "Letter to Mrs Lydia Bixby" (November 21, 1864), pp. |
| my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis2/soul.html When peace, like a river, attendeth my way, When sorrows like sea billows roll; Whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say, It is well, it is well, with my soul. Refrain It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well, it is well, with my soul. Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come, Let this blest assurance control, That Christ has regarded my helpless estate, And hath shed His own blood for my soul. Refrain It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well, it is well, with my soul. My sin, not in part but the whole, Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul! Refrain It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well, it is well, with my soul. And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight, The clouds be rolled back as a scroll; The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend, Even so, it is well with my soul. Refrain It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well (it is well), with my soul (with my soul), It is well, it is well, with my soul. |
| www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh377.sht It Is Well with My Soul Text: Horatio G Spafford Music: Philip P Bliss Tune: VILLE DU HAVRE, Meter: 11 811 9 with Refrain 1 When peace, like a river, attendeth my way, when sorrows like sea billows roll; whatever my lot, thou hast taught me to say, It is well, it is well with my soul. Refrain: It is well with my soul, it is well, it is well with my soul. My sin, not in part but the whole, is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul! |
| members.warpnet.net/karin/images/zgodprom.html God Hath Not Promised God hath not promised skies always blue Flower strewn pathways, all our lives through; God hath not promised sun without rain, Joy without sorrow, peace without pain. Chorus: But God hath promised strength for the day, Rest for the labour, light for the way, Grace for the trials, help from above, Unfailing kindness, undying love. God hath not promised we shall not know Toil and temptations, trouble and woe; He hath not told us we shall not bear Many a burden, many a care. |
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| www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209;&version=31; Zondervan John 9 Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind ^1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. The Pharisees Investigate the Healing ^13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. Spiritual Blindness ^35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" |