Transportation PublicTransit - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Transportation:PublicTransit:
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/06/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2013/7/1-8/23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:54700 Activity:nil
7/1     BART labor union holding the transit infrastructure hostage.
        \_ Yesterday's SFGate poll showed that 11% of the readers sympathize
           with the workers, 17% with the management, and 72% with the riders.
           \_ The millions the Koch Brother's spent are paying off. Workers
              now sympathize more with their masters than.
              now sympathize more with their masters than their own
           \_ The union train operators and station agents get, on average,
              $71k/yr base salary and $11k/yr overtime, and contribute $0 to
              pension and $92/mo for health insurance.
              \_ What do you make?
                 \_ I make more than that, but my employer is not prohibited
                    from replacing me with someone who would be willing to get
                    paid less and get the same job done.
                    paid less and get the same job done. -- PP
                    \_ Perhaps you should join a Union then.
                       \_ Not all unions are as greedy as BART unions.  ATU,
                          which represents AC Transit bus operators whose jobs
                          are more demanding than BART train operators, wasn't
                          as greedy.
                          \_ What do you mean? They make about the same pay.
                             \_ Driving a bus on city streets is more demanding
                                than driving an automated train on dedicated
                                rail tracks.
                                   Doesn't really seem true to me.
2012/5/21-7/20 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:54395 Activity:nil
5/20    Suburbs sucking wind, cities recovering:
        \_ 2 hours of commute a day could mean nothing (e.g. a young blue
           collar worker who has all the time in the world) or it could
           mean everything (e.g. really busy city person who has little
           time and/or energy to spend with kids).
2011/10/10-18 [Recreation/Food, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:54191 Activity:nil
10/10   Has anyone heard the CSX Train commercial on the radio?  I wonder why
        a freight railroad company bothers to advertise to individual
        comsumers.  It's not like someone can click "By CSX Train" when
        choosing shipping method on, or someone will choose this
        brand of pasta sauce over that brand at a grocery because it was
        delivered by a CSX Train.
        \_ Maybe it's like those billboards for SAP -- most people aren't in
           the market for enterprise software, but you only need one who is
           to make your ad worthwhile.
2022/06/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2010/2/10-3/9 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:53700 Activity:nil
2/10    Does anyone have an authoritative URL that shows the % of people
        in the Bay Area who commute via foot, bike, car, BART, and Caltrains?
        In particular I'd like to look at trend as well.
        \_ has some.  -tom
        \_ Guys, guys, guys, I asked a simple question. What % of Bay Area
           traffic goes to autos, bikes, foot, BART, and Caltrain? I'm
           not asking you guys to debate the merits of BART. Can you help?
        \_ I don't have the % but this shows BART is pathetic:
           \_ that only talks about ridership per mile, which is more of a
              statement on the region's population density rather than
              some real statement of how effective a transportation mode
              the rail systems it discusses are.
              \_ What metric would you use other than dollars per
                 ridership-mile?  Unless the metric is "how often the
                 trains line up with the black squares on the platform,"
                 doors line up with the black squares on the platform,"
                 BART is going to lose badly compared to other transit
                 systems, including the others in the Bay Area.  -tom
                 \_ What is the dollars per ridership mile stat? -ausman
                 \_ I agree. Driving is far superior to BART.
           \_ Bart is pathetic indeed.
           \_ Here is one reason why BART can't increase its capacity on
              existing tracks by running trains closer together and at higher
              speed.  Blame General Electric:
              \_ No, blame BART for paying $80 million for vaporware that,
                 even if it worked, would further complicate their already
                 complicated and idiosyncratic system, instead of doing
                 something rational like "get faster trains".  (Problem is,
                 you can't get faster trains because BART's too
                 idiosyncratic.)  -tom
                 \_ The above article seems to imply the existing trains are
                    already capable of higher speed if not for the train
                    control limitations.  No?
                    \_ They're not capable of higher speeds; they just think
                       they could run them closer together if they sprinkle
                       magic fairy dust on them.  -tom
2009/10/29-11/3 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:53481 Activity:moderate
10/29   "BART customers shatter previous ridership records"
        Here's the Bay Area solution to global warming: just snap a cable on
        the Bay Bridge once a while. :-)
        \_ what about taking a chem e class and see how stupid you sound?
           \_ Not as stupid as someone who couldn't tell that OP was obviously
           \_ I don't see why you think he sounds stupid.  A full BART uses
              significantly less than the same number of people driving into
              the city.
              \_ An equivalent of 249mpg to be exact.
         -- !PP
                 \_ Do they publish numbers for how much the less-than-full
                    trains consume?   Or how it is diluted by the fact that
                    trains run the full length of their run regardless of how
                    far the passengers actually go.
                    \_ you're an idiot.
        \_ "... during the first two full days of the bridge closure on
           Wednesday and Thursday, BART estimated that riders took 163,000
           extra BART trips. If they had driven vehicles for those trips, the
           trips would have resulted in about 1.8 million pounds of CO2
2009/8/13-9/1 [Reference/BayArea, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:53269 Activity:nil
8/13    One greedy BART union going on strike next Monday:
        \_ No, not really. It is just a negotiating tactic.
        \_ You know what, BART's troubles do have a little to do with union pay,
           but its mostly BARTs expansion mission instead of dealing with
           the stations its has.  The airport extension is not as popular as
           they said it would be, and they're going forward with San Jose
           and Oakland airport connector extensions
2009/8/6-19 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:53251 Activity:nil
8/5     Bart vs. MTA NSFW
        \_ Guess MTA doesn't stop running huh.
           \_ Yup.
        \_ Looks like they art more SRS over there.
        \_ I'd give bart the win,  except that it is a photoshop job.
           \_ nah, I'd give MTA the definite win.
2009/7/12-24 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:53130 Activity:moderate
7/12    Turns out that BART management has been lying to the public and
        the press about salaries, whoops!
        \_ Why do the janitors make $28.09 per hour in California where
           there is plenty of cheap labor and at those prices why are
           the BART restrooms almost always nasty? To me that's ridiculous.
           \_ unions, sinecures, and a sense of entitlement
           \_ $28.09 with no danger of layoff!?  Gee, why am I in software
           \_ $28.09 with no danger of layoff, plus getting paid for 40hrs/wk
              while only working 37.5hrs/wk (see article)!?  Gee, why am I in
              software engineering?
              \_ If you are making anything close to $28/hr in a real
                 software engineering job you need to start looking for
                 a new career, because you are either an idiot or
                 far too easilly taken advantage of.  Especially when
                 the 28/hr includes cost of benefits (any 401k matching?
                 good health benefits?  life/disability insurance?) and the
                 costs of a (oh my!) half hour lunch break.
           \_ There is not plenty of cheap legal labor in California.
              \_ Oh yes there is. My mom used to work in management at a bank,
                 both in retail and at data/call centers. They could find
                 plenty of labor for $14/hour and those jobs have a lot more
                 responsibilities than a janitor does. My niece is assistant
                 manager of an Old Navy while she works her way through college
                 and she doesn't even make $20/hour. There is no shortage of
                 people willing to work for $15-20/hour. Go to your local
                 Taco Bell and ask if any employees want a benefitted janitor
                 job that puts $18/hours in their pockets. This is a crime.
                 job that puts $18/hour in their pockets. This is a crime.
                 \_ I'm sure your niece would make a great janitor.
                    \_ For $28/hour it would really help with school costs,
                       despite your asinine comment.
                       \_ Does she live in the Bay Area? Did she apply? It is
                          hard to get a job you don't apply for. BART is
                          probably mostly interested in people who are going
                          to stick around though, not part timers.
                          \_ <DEAD><DEAD> says it's not currently
                             hiring for "Maintenance, Vehicle & Facil"
                             positions.  Why can't she apply for a janitor
                             position asking for, say, $23/hr when the current
                             ones are costing BART $28.09/hr?  Well, thanks to
                             the union.
                             positions.  Why can't she get a BART janitor job
                             at, say, $23/hr when the current ones are costing
                             BART $28.09/hr?  Well, thanks to the union. -- !PP
                             \_ You say that like it is a bad thing.
                                \_ It is a bad thing for taxpayers, BART
                                   riders, and citizens and legal residents
                                   who are willing to do the same job for less.
                                   BTW what's the unemployment rate now?
                                   \_ Society in general benefits from the
                                      existence of stable decent paying jobs
                                      with good benefits. I am sad that I even
                                      have to point this out to you. How do
                                      "citizens and legal residents who are
                                      willing to do the job for less" benefit
                                      from having salaries in their profession
                                      decreased? What was the area unemployment
                                      rate before the Bush Depression? Unless
                                      you think we are in a permanent state of
                                      10%+ unemployment, it is a bad idea to
                                      whipsaw your employees like this. If we
                                      are still in a deflationary depression
                                      in another year or two, you might have
                                      a point.
                                      \_ Oh sorry, I didn't realize that the
                                         janitorial profession as a whole is
                                         making $28.09/hr on average!
                       \_ You know, there just might be something about
                          being a bank teller, or managing an Old Navy,
                          which means people will accept lower wages than
                          they could get as a janitor.  Gee, I can't imagine
                          what those things might be.
                          \_ I've been a janitor, and it seems much better than
                             managing an Old Navy IMO.
                             \_ yeah, it looks great on your resume, too
        \_ This article also says "It's still true - with caveats that I'll
           explain - that BART wages are at or near the top in the nation, even
           when adjusted for regional differences in cost of living. And the
           take-away message remains the same: BART workers should make salary
           concessions to help the transit district stave off future fare hikes
           and service cuts."
2009/7/2-15 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:53105 Activity:nil
7/1     Okay, here is the reply from Tom Radulovich to my email. He is on
        the BART Board of Directors and is an all around good guy.

        You are correct. The great majority of represented BART workers are
        maintenance or clerical employees, train operators, or station agents,
        but the represented ranks include some junior managers in AFSCME, and
        most of the BART police managers (sergeants, lieutenants, and
        commanders). Among the five unions, as I recall, about 1500 employees
        are in SEIU 1021 (maintenance and clerical), 800 in ATU 1555 (train
        operators and station agents), 250 in AFSCME 3993 (technical and
        junior managers), 260 in BART Police Officers Association (sworn
        police officers, community service assistants, and revenue guards)
        and 46 in BART Police Managers Association.

        The $114,000 figure is total compensation, and included wages and
        benefits; I was told today that for the average BART employee,
        approximately $70k is wages, and the remaining $44k benefits
        (medical/dental, pension, retiree medical, etc). Many BART employees
        earn overtime, but no overtime is not included in the $114 k figure.

        Hope that helps. I don't have the wages and benefits for specific
        positions handy, but the Fremont Argus ran a chart recently showing
        compensation (wages and benefits) for several typical positions at
        BART, including station agents, janitors, train operators, mechanics,
        foreworkers, etc.; you should be able to find it online if you are
        \_ What did you ask him?
        \_ the BART overtime numbers push up some of the salaries to crazy
           levels. google around for stuff like "bart overtime salary".
           and it has been this way for years ... the giant amounts of overtime
           is not a coping strategy while they train new operators ... that's
           the way they do business.
2009/6/30-7/15 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:53094 Activity:nil
        "The average (BART) union worker makes $114,000 a year in wages and
        And they're demanding a 3% raise.  Geez.
        \_ This is called negotiation by press release. What does the average
           worker who is not in management make?
           $90k/yr including benefits 4 years ago.
           "... the average train operator and station agent already make
            $66,000 a year..."
            \_ Managers are union workers?
               \_ Oddly enough, in BART they are.
            \_ Hmm, the first paragraph at the URL you're quoting reads "BART
               workers who are asking for raises in contract negotiations with
               the transit district are among the highest-paid transit workers
               in the Bay Area and the nation, according to transit officials."
               And, I can't even find your quote at your URL.  Where does your
               quote come from?
                  \_ Quoting things without citing the source is not quoting.
                  \_ Quoting things without source is not quoting, let alone
                     providing a wrong source.  Plus, you delibrately left out
                     the remaing part of the same sentence, which reads "
                     (without overtime), plus free medical, dental and full
                     \_ It is still way less than your quoted $114k/yr. Why do
                        you deliberately spread BART management PR distortions?
                        \_ Hmm, I quoted sentences in full, while you took
                           words out of context.  Anyway, as I quoted, $114K is
                           for BART union workers, while the $66k you "quoted"
                           (plus other benefits that you omitted) is for train
                           operators and station agents.  Now, is the union
                           demanding a compensation increase for all union
                           workers or only for union train operators and
                           station agents?
                           \_ Train operators, mechanics and station agents
                              comprise the overwhelming majority of BART
                              employees. Now granted $90k/yr (including
                              benefits) ain't chicken scratch. I don't know
                              the answer to your question, but I sent some
                              email to Tom Radulivich asking him.
                           \_ No, stating a fact (what someones salary is)
                              is not "quoting out of context." Putting down
                              my source for every fact I state on the motd
                              would be tedious, especially when anyone with
                              a basic ability to google would be able to verify
                              it for themselves. You still haven't answered
                              my question, btw.
                              \_ Quoting "$66k/yr" to counter "$114k/yr in
                                 wages and benefits", without mentioning that
                                 $66k/yr is not wages and benefits while your
                                 source clearly mentions it, *is* quoting out
                                 of context.
                                 \_ Quoting "$114k/yr in average wages and
                                    benefits" without mentioning that ~80%
                                    of BART employees make less than $100k
                                    is spreading deliberate misinformation.
        \_ BART management and employees both have snazzy PR websites
           about how horrible the other side is
           \_ I still don't think Evil BART Booth Lady should be making
              100k a year.  I'm not sure what she should be making, but
              it's not close to 100k.
2009/4/17-23 [Computer/Networking, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:52862 Activity:nil
4/17    "WiFi Rail Inc. to provide wifi access on BART system"
        (not exactlly new news)
2009/4/6-13 [Reference/Tax, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:52808 Activity:high
4/6     Alameda sales tax is now 9.75%. that's pretty rough. sales
        tax is regressive.  Some boneheaded Oakland city council member
        wants to raise Oakland sales tax even more, in this
        recession. - motd liberal
        \_ Yes, the sales tax, car tax, and income tax increases enacted by the
           state legislature are the largest in history, and massively
           regressive.  Add in the federal tobacco tax increase and the poor
           have been hammered.
           \_ I'm going to give the legislature a break on car taxes.  Arnold
              shouldn't have used that issue to get into office.
              \_ Irrespective of Arnold's tactics, a doubling of the VLF is
                 still a huge hit for many low-income families.
                 \_ Compared to all the other costs of car ownership
                    car taxes are pretty damn tiny, especially if you
                    own a junker.  (1.15 percent, or about 33 bucks/year on
                    a car that costs 3000 dollars)  In the mid/late 90s VLF
                    fees were about twice what they are now.
           \_ Regressive taxes are good.  Tax the poor right out of existence!
              It's their own fault for being poor!
                --  Typical conservative whackjob
                    a car that costs 3000 dollars, so an extra ~$16 a year.)
                    In the mid/late 90s VLF fees were about twice what
                    they are now.
                 \_ Car drivers are still massively subsidized by non-drivers,
                    who tend to be even poorer.
                    \_ I doubt it, since non-drivers are a small portion of
                       the population and have small incomes. I think you
                       could eliminate non-drivers from the country completely
                       and it would hardly affect drivers. What gets
                       massive subsidies is public transit.
                       \_ That's only true if you ignore most of the costs
                          of driving.
                       \_ Public transit gets less subsidy per rider than
                          automobiles do, actually. Many non-drivers are
                          old and not poor.
                          \_ Old generally means lower income. In 2000 87%
                             of the "driving age population" had a license.
                             (Driving age population basically excludes kids.
                             There is no upper age.) How much do you think
                             that other 13% is contributing? It's probably
                             much less than 13% of the tax base. There is no
                             way car drivers are subsidized by non-drivers.
                             \_ That doesn't mean driving isn't subsidized.
                                It just means that the subsidizers are often
                                also the drivers.  That both hides the true
                                cost of car ownership and makes it so it's
                                not cost effective to opt out.
                                \_ How do you subsidize yourself? You are
                                   being ridiculous now.
                                   \_ Say I have to pay a lot of taxes
                                      to build roads/clean up after cars/
                                      spend money on traffic enforcement/
                                      etc.  That's a subsidy.  Yeah I get
                                      services from it, but it hides the
                                      total costs of car ownership.  And
                                      total costs of car ownership.  And if
                                      I chose not to own a car I still have
                                      to pay thoses costs so there's much
                                      less incentive to use alternatives.
                                   \_ I think there is a strong case that those
                                      that drive less (or not at all) subsidize
                                      those who drive more. If something is
                                      subsidized so that users of it don't see
                                      the true cost, it tends to get over-
                             \_ Has a license does not mean has a car.  Has
                                a license does not mean drives regularly.
                                \_ No, but has a license = driver. Drivers
                                   sometimes walk, bike, or take public
                                   transit, too, but we're still drivers.
                                   Roads benefit everyone. Emergency
                                   services and firefighting, transport of
                                   goods, and even buses and bikes benefit
                                   by roads. However, not everyone benefits
                                   from public transit.
                                   \_ take the million-plus trips that
                                      go by public transit in the Bay Area
                                      each day and turn them into car trips,
                                      and you'll see how public transit
                                      benefits everyone.  -tom
                                      \_ No, that just benefits Bay Area
                                   \_ Everyone benefits from reduced congestion,
                                      cleaner air and fewer people injured on
                                      the highways.
                                         \_ Almost certainly my last post
                                            on this subject: Having a
                                            transportation network capable
                                            of moving lots of people from
                                            place to place in the region
                                            is a benefit to everyone.
                                            Employers, for example, are
                                            benefitted by having access
                                            to their employees.  Public
                                            transit moves more people per
                                            dollar or per unit of land use
                                            than roads do, which gives the
                                            overall infrastructure greater
                                            capacity at a lower cost.  -tom
                                            \_ It's only efficient if you
                                               happen to need to go exactly
                                               where public transit takes you.
                                               You have a point if you want
                                               to go from A to B, but not if
                                               you want to go from A to [A-Z].
                                               You can replace all roads with
                                               rail and build a thousand new
                                               train stations if you want to
                                               achieve the effect you desire
                                               but that seems horribly
                                               expensive given the roads are
                                               already in place and the
                                               logistics are nasty for cargo
                                               (which is why trucks are used
                                               more often than cheaper existing
                                               rail in many cases). We aren't
                                               talking about building some
                                               utopian society from scratch,
                                               but leveraging off of what
                                               exists and there is no way
                                               replacing roads with rail
                                               makes sense at this time in
                                               I'd say 98% of cases.
                                               \_ Have you ever been to
                                                  \_ I have. I noticed the
                                                     startling existence
                                                     of roads.
                                                     \_ Far fewer than here,
                                                        per capita. How do you
                                                        think they do that?
                                                        \_ Mash 4 million
                                                           people into a
                                                           closet? Per capita!
                                                           How about per square
                                                           kilometer?? It's
                                                           about the same as
                                               \_ Keep beating that straw
                                                  man, I'm sure you'll get
                                                  him at some point.  -tom
                                                  \_ Is that your new nickname?
                                   \_ Everyone benefits from reduced
                                      congestion, cleaner air and fewer
                                      people injured on the highways.
                                      \_ I would say that the cost/benefit
                                         ratio is high for the typical
                                         American who is not living in a
                                         crowded city. Why should they
                                         subsidize commuters in SF and NYC?
                                         \_ Who is this typical American who
                                            doesn't live in a crowded city?
                                         However, I think it's clear why
                                         those in SF and NYC should still
                                         pay for roads in middle America.
                                         Let me make this more clear: We need
                                         the roads. We cannot eliminate them.
                                         Claiming that they are subsidized
                                         (or not) misses this point. We have
                                         to pay for them. We do not need rail
                                         (distinguished from buses because
                                         buses also need the road) at this
                                         time in most of the country and
                                         even in the areas that we do we still
                                         need roads. It's a luxury that makes
                                         life better for some people. Like
                                         all luxuries, it should be paid
                                         for by those who use those services.
                                         You can argue that we should be
                                         building a rail infrastructure to
                                         handle future population increases,
                                         but you will *still* need the roads
                                         so that just means increasing total
                                         transportation costs. You will
                                         not get to a point where rail is
                                         free and all the roads are toll
                                         roads and even if you did you
                                         would just be shifting the costs
                                         around so that you'd pay for them
                                         with higher prices for goods,
                                         emergency services, and so on.
                                         You (the non-driver) will not be
                                         able to escape paying for roads
                                         unless there are no roads and
                                         that is unlikely in my lifetime.
                                         \_ No, we don't need all those
                                            roads. We could easily get by
                                            with 1/4 the road network. Why
                                            should urban commuters subsidize
                                            suburban commuters? You have no
                                            explaination, other than "we need
                                            it." We only need big interstates
                                            like I-5 and I-10, we don't need
                                            all the commuter beltways, like
                                            580 and 24. If we didn't have
                                            commuter rail, we would have to
                                            build even more freeways, which
                                            cost more per passenger than rail.
                                            \_ You needs roads almost
                                               everywhere because goods ship
                                               to/from almost everywhere
                                               and you need to be able to
                                               provide emergency access to
                                               almost everywhere (firefighters
                                               and ambulance). In fact, I
                                               would argue you need those
                                               local roads *more* than you
                                               need roads like I-5 and
                                               I-10, which could more easily be
                                               replaced by rail for transport
                                               of goods and people, too.
                                               Drive I-5 and you will see
                                               it's hardly used for local
                                               transit and transport.
                                               \_ There is no need to provide
                                                  goods and emergency access
                                                  to low density regions. I
                                                  lived in Wyoming and it would
                                                  be stupid to build paved
                                                  roads to every house. Why
                                                  should the taxpayer support
                                                  someones desire to live out
                                                  in the middle of nowhere?
                                                  \_ I agree except I suspect
                                                     you have a weird idea of
                                                     what "low density" means.
                                                     Everything not in the
                                                     largest cities is not "low
                                                     density". If you want
                                                     to argue against Alaska
                                                     highways (Bridge To
                                                     Nowhere) I am with you on
                                                     that, but not if you
                                                     are talking about
                                                     roads in places like
                                                     \_ It is fine to build a
                                                        small two lane road in
                                                        places like Stockton,
                                                        sufficient for goods
                                                        delivery (and what we
                                                        had in the 50's) but
                                                        that is not what we
                                                        have now.
                                                        \_ What was the
                                                           population in the
                                                           50's compared
                                                           to now?
                                                           \_ If the people who
                                                              want to use all
                                                              that extra
                                                              want to pay for
                                                              it, that is fine,
                                                              but if they don't
                                                              let it go back to
                                                              weeds, like
                                                              Detroit is doing
                                                              today. No use in
                                                              throwing good
                                                              money after bad.
                                            People who live in rural areas get
                                            all other kinds of subsidizes as
                                            well, which we should phase out.
                                            It is inefficient to live so widely
                                            spread out and rural people (other
                                            than farmers) don't really
                                            contribute that much to the
                                            economy. All those big yards are
                                            luxuries that you should not expect
                                            others to pay for. If we got rid
                                            of all those inefficient freeways
                                            and replaced them with more
                                            efficient transportation methods,
                                            prices would go down, not up, like
                                            you claim.
2009/3/3-11 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:52669 Activity:nil
3/3     "Stimulus bill increases transit tax benefit for commuters"
        "The law raises the amount of pretax income that workers enrolled in
        employer-sponsored commuter benefits programs can use to pay for mass
        transit -- from $120 per month to $230 per month."
        \_ pity they encumber the EZRider program such that its difficult to
           pay for BART fares via EZrider with employer-sponsored commuter
2009/1/21-26 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:52431 Activity:moderate
1/21    The area around Fruitvale Bart in oakland, is it relatively safe?
        I am buying stuff on craigslist from a guy 2 blocks from the
        station around Sat noon. Don't want to walk into the wrong
        neighborhood you know. ;)
        \_ It is safe in the daytime. -ausman
           \_ why dont you meet them at the cafe directly across the st from
              Fruitvale BART?
              \_ This is some audio equipment that I'd like to power
                 on and give it a try before buying. Inside the
                 seller's home seems to be the easiest option, unless
                 there are AC outlets near BART or the cafe?
                 \_ The cafe I am talking about, in the 'transit village',
                    has power outlets.
                 \_ There are AC outlets in BART stations.  I used to recharge
                    my cell phone when I waited for my wife in Hayward BART in
                    the evenings.  Whether you want to try out audio equipment
                    in a BART station is a different question.
        \_ Yeah, don't buy anything from anyone who asks to meet you in a
           parking lot at night.
           \_ Unless you're buying bioluminescent jellyfish.
        \_ Fruitvale is notoriously bad. I had an acquaintance who managed
           a chain of pizza places. One of the locations was in Fruitvale.
           They constantly had problems, including people ordering pizza
           and then not paying and drivers getting mugged. Fruitvale had
           more problems than any other store in the chain.
           P.S. Be very careful. I wouldn't go into some guy's house in
           Fruitvale. Sounds like a good way to lose your $$$ if he's
           dishonest. Meeting somewhere public is better. Fruitvale is
           not Orinda, where I'd have no problems doing that.
        \_ I am danh.  I often go to south/east oakland to watch sideshows.
           Do not worry unless you are extremely white or asian.  If you
           look somewhat ethic, you will be ok.
           \_ Paolo, in the wise words of Yusef Bey, "Keep my name
              outcha mouth." - danh
           \_ If you look too ethic, you'll get beat up. No one around there
              likes a goody two-shoes.
              \_ Clever!
           \_ What the heck does "extremely white" mean?
              \_ Probably "extremely caucasian". Although I don't think
                 albinos will get much love either.
2009/1/15-23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:52399 Activity:nil
        Bart icon.
        \_ i finally SAW the video.  Shot in the BACK ugh.
2009/1/7-12 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:52331 Activity:low
1/7     Ride BART, get handcuffed and shot in the back by BART police
        \_ Now now, that also includes fighting and resisting.
           \_ Oh, so you think the shooting was justified?
              \_ No, just in favor of full disclosure--and it looks like he
                 really thought he was drawing a tazer.
                 \_ Not so sure about that - it looks to me like he's using
                    a regulation draw, hold, fire, and re-holster.  Isn't
                    the taser usually kept on the other side?  And why would
                    you taser someone at point blank range?  Isn't that
                    \_ Capture error.  I don't think he intentionally shot the
                       guy, I think it was a mistake.  Involuntary
                       manslaughter, rather than 2nd degree murder.
        \_ did anyone else notice that the last line from SFO is now at 11:40pm?
                    \_ I read on the Mercury News that the taser is kept right
                       next to the firearm. I finally saw the video last night
                       and the officer looked pretty surprised right after
                       the shooting.
                    \_ When cops use lethal force, they're not trained to
                       "draw, fire, reholster".  It's draw, fire MULTIPLE
                       times, then assess before reholstering.  The sequence he
                       goes through is closer to taser.
                       \_ Why the hell was he tasering him?  When did tasering
                          a dude become something you do because you are grumpy
                          and want to cause someone serious pain?
        \_ did anyone else notice that the last line from SFO is now at
        \_ welcome to the post auto bailout america.  Do you really think
           they'll reward rail riders now that detoit got free monies?
        \_ Now you see why we need civil rights groups like Copwatch.
        \_ now we scream 187 on a motherfucking cop.
2008/10/22-27 [Reference/BayArea, Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:51640 Activity:nil
10/22   RIDE BIKES! Meet Thursday 6:30pm in SF, between Embarcadero BART and
        the Ferry building.
        Last night's ride was teh hott. Thursday's ride will be hottest. -ali
2008/9/25-10/1 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:51309 Activity:nil
        LA mean travel time is 29.2min, which is only slightly more
        than SF at 29.0. See, Los Angeles isn't such a bad place to live!
        \_ "figures shown for central city only, not metropolitan area"
2008/9/25-30 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:51294 Activity:kinda low
9/25    What % of BA commuters commute via BART, Caltrain, and road?
        \_ Not exactly the numbers you're looking for, but the 2006 numbers
           for % of workers using public transit are:
           San Francisco:       30.29%
           San Jose:             3.92%
           \_ 30% is not bad! NYC is 54%. How in the world did
              Los Angeles get 10%? No way!
              \_ A lot of poor people ride the bus in South Central.
        \_ You forgot Yahoo/eBay/Paypal/Google/Apple shuttles.
           \_ And the long-disance AC Transit transbay buses with free Wi-Fi.
              A few lines go as far as Fremont <--> SF.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:50739 Activity:nil
7/30    SF is about to build a 2 mile subway from Chinatown to
        the ballpark, going UNDER Powell BART.  Powell BART leaks
        like a sieve and BART needs to pump thousands of gallons of water
        out of the station daily.  They actually have trash cans out
        in key parts of the station to collect water.  Somehow I don't think
        the might SF corp of civil engineers have taken into consideration
        all of this crap they are going to have to build their gajillion
        dollar tunnel of shit under.
        \_ I hadn't heard about this.  I assume there will be some easy
           transfer from BART to the new line?  By gondola perhaps?
           \_ Ever use muni?
           \_ they will use HOMOSEXUAL FAIRY MAGIC
           \_ There will be an underground walkway from Union Square Station to
              Montgomery BART.
        \_ All subways leak water.  The NYC subway system would flood within
           hours if electricity went out and the generators failed.  It's
           part of that whole "being 100 feet underground" thing.  But you
           should stay convinced that only you understand that water exists
           and that civil engineers don't know anything about their jobs.
           \_ you know I wouldn't put it past the city of sf to plan
              this 1.7 subway going under some of the densest most expensive
              real estate in the United States Of America, and totally
              fucking it all up and it ends up costing something stupid
              like 11 billion dollars.  also the subway is part of a
              gentrify the toxic waste dump that is Hunters Point and fill
              it with pleasant white relaxed Google engineers who haven't
              done their own laundry in years + gain political points with
              the 40 percent population of sf Chinese people you never hear
              \_ *cough* Big Dig *cough*
              \_ You know I wouldn't put it past you being an idiot.
                 \_ The gajillion dollar subway is part of a plan to gentrify
                    Hunters Point, it is hard to dispute that.  The gajillion
                    dollar subway was planned to butter up the chinese sf
                    \_ If you think civil engineers who work on subway
                       systems don't know tunnels leak water you are dumb.
                       \_ Apparently BATMAN is running SF's computer systems
                          these days.  THE MOLE MAN might run city public works
                    \_ What is wrong with gentrifying Hunter's Point? You would
                       rather see a Superfund site there? And I can't see
                       what is wrong with actually serving your constituency.
                       The Chinatown buses are the most crowded in The City.
                       \_ Don't you know that the chinese aren't real people?
        \_ I wouldn't trust the City of SF to plan the drainage in a desert.
           \- maybe you can align the incentives by having Bechtel design a
              tunnel which goes under the Bechtel Building. BTW, isn't the
              rationale for this to connect 3rd street rail/caltrain to
              downtown without going through surface traffic rather than
              bringing chinese people to the ball park?
              \_ No, when this is all done, there will actually be two
                 tunnels, two blocks apart: one for Muni and one for CalTrain.
                 This seems kind of stupid to me, but I see why they are
                 doing it.
2008/6/23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:50337 Activity:kinda low
6/22    Public transit blows part deux:
        \_ If you hated part one, why did you torture yourself with
           part 2? Oh well, I guess you love being tortured.
        So I am in Boston for the week. My hotel is near downtown. I decided
        that since there is a 'T' line right outside my hotel I would take
        \_ T has a lot of problems. You can't take an example of a bad
           mass transit and say "shit I hate all mass transits." It's
           like having a bad experience with a black man and say
           "all black men are bad." Racist.
        the train. Strike One: It takes 47 minutes to get to Beacon Hill if you
        \_ After strike one, you should STOP and evaluate yourself...
           maybe you should step back and say, wait, let me THINK about
           this shitty situation for a while BEFORE I rely on it further.
           What a dumb ass! HAHAHHA you deserved what you got.
        plan your trip so that you don't wait for trains. It can't be more
        than a few miles away, but you have to take a train to hell and
        back to transfer to another train. So I took a cab. Strike Two:
                                        \_ cab is the best thing. Cab,
                                           is always >>> mass transit
                                           except for cost. That's true
                                           anywhere in the world, provided
                                           that you can pay for it.
                                           \_ This is untrue.  I got where
                                              I was going much faster in
                                              Wash. DC using the train:
                                              cabs are in *traffic*.
                                              The Metro is *not*.  My
                                              destination/source were
                                              Metro-friendly.  I concede
                                              that generally cabs could be
                                              superior, but your claim of
                                              "always" is false.
                                           \_ The best thing is to have a
                                              private car with driver,
                                              catering to your every whim.
                                              This is what I do in poor
                                              countries, but can't afford here.
        \_ Try taking a cab in LA. Har har har.
           \_ I don't get it. LA has plenty of cabs.
              \_ So how come I've never seen a cab in Woodland Hills,
                 where I grew up? And South Pasadena? Dumb ass.
        I took the 'T' to Cambridge. It's *supposed* to be a 30 minute
        \_ Again, you need to hang out with a local to understand why
           things don't go the way it's *supposed* to, because in the
           real world, in practice, it is different than theory. DUH!!!
        train ride to go 2.5 miles. Again, that's if you plan your trip to
        coincide exactly with the arrival of a train. You have to transfer
        once. Well, what I got was the line I needed to transfer to being
        closed and everyone herded onto a bus with a belligerent drunk who
        \_ Yeah if you don't like people, don't take mass transit. No
           one is forcing you to take it. Dumb ass.
        the bus driver eventually threw off the bus for being a nuisance
        \_ bus != real mass transit. It is a bandaid to a more serious problem
           \_ Yes, ignore the mass transit you don't like.
        (he was cussing in front of kids, grabbing people, and eventually
        threatened to strangle someone). Then we got on another train line.
        My total cost was $10 per person round trip. Oh, yes, I can't wait to
        \_ Good, you deserve it. Now stay in LA and drive in your smoggy
           city for heaven's sake.
        take public transit again. It is so much cheaper, more convenient,
        and pleasant than driving. My drive out to Cape Cod went well,
                                \_ Cape Cod has a lot of nice people.
                                   And they're gay, and want your ass.
        \_ you're more than welcome to drive in Boston or NYC. Good luck.
           If you're skilled enough to drive, then drive. Obviously, you're
           not skilled enough to take the mass transit. I mean, if you take
           a New Yorker (who normally doesn't drive) and stick him in
           Los Angeles, what would he have to say about driving? Probably
           as much praise as you give to mass transits. You're as dumb
           as your trolls.
        though. $20 in gas to drive by myself 200 miles in air conditioned
        comfort and incontrol of my own itinerary. Imagine that. Next chance
                \_ Oh, yeah, THE 110 and THE 405 are very comfortable. Good one
        for public transit will be to go to the Museum of Fine Art. I am
        anxiously awaiting to see what Strike Three is because I won't
        count being passed by in Berkeley seeing as a bus is not public
        transit. Only high-speed Euro-style rail from LA to Las Vegas
        counts as public transit.
        \_ Obviously, you're a mass transit newbie. You'll get the
           hang of it, but not in 1-2 days. It's a good time to hang out
           with the locals to get to know the nuances of scheduling and
           getting around. You'll get it, trust me. It's an acquired
           taste. Not for newbies, but in time, you'll get used to it.
           Trust me! Automobile is like candies and mass transit is like
           cigarettes, you'll get a taste for it in time. Good luck!
        \_ Why not take your car to the Museum of Fine Art and tell us how
           it goes?
           \_ I've driven in Boston twice now. It's a pain. I prefer it to
              mass transit and I will drive a lot more than I planned
              based on my experiences so far. If I ever go back to
              Cambridge I will definitely drive there. Also, there's a
              rstaurant in Beacon Hill I want to try. I will drive there,
              too. Apparently the best way to get around is by cab. Is a
              cab considered mass transit? I will be in Manhattan in a
              week and I plan on taking cabs there and never touching the
              mass transit.
        \- i have never taken muni in the ~5yrs i have lived in SF and even
           *i* took the T in Boston [even when on expense account so no
           cost to parking, rental etc]. although i walked to the MFA.
           if you go to the MFA see the excellent Dante and Vergil "buddy
           movie' bronze. there is also some total fraud there like this:
  and the stuff like the RRAUSCHENBERG
           cardboard boxes.
           \_ I took it, too, but my experiences have sucked. Having the
              police come to cart a crazy guy off of a bus that you
              weren't supposed to take except that the line you needed
              closed unexpectedly tends to ruin the experience.
              \_ Yeah, I can see how that might tend to ruin it for you.
                 I have riding transit in the Bay Area for 15 years and have
                 only seen anything like that a few times. Do you imagine that
                 you are safer on the bus or in your car?
        \_ Misanthropes should probably not ride transit, if they can avoid it.
           \_ Well, that's the problem with mass transit. Anyone can and
              does ride it.
        \_  (
           "In the face of rising gasoline prices, AC Transit is experiencing
           a boom in ridership. Particularly impressive has been the Transbay
           service where passenger levels have shown tremendous increases
           since December-- including by more than 50 percent on one line."
2008/6/22-23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:50332 Activity:high
6/22    Public transit blows part deux:
        So I am in Boston for the week. My hotel is near downtown. I decided
        that since there is a 'T' line right outside my hotel I would take
        the train. Strike One: It takes 47 minutes to get to Beacon Hill if you
        plan your trip so that you don't wait for trains. It can't be more
        than a few miles away, but you have to take a train to hell and
        back to transfer to another train. So I took a cab. Strike Two:
        \_ Try taking a cab in LA. Har har har.
           \_ I don't get it. LA has plenty of cabs.
        I took the 'T' to Cambridge. It's *supposed* to be a 30 minute
        train ride to go 2.5 miles. Again, that's if you plan your trip to
        coincide exactly with the arrival of a train. You have to transfer
        once. Well, what I got was the line I needed to transfer to being
        closed and everyone herded onto a bus with a belligerent drunk who
        the bus driver eventually threw off the bus for being a nuisance
        \_ bus != real mass transit. It is a bandaid to a more serious problem
           \_ Yes, ignore the mass transit you don't like.
        (he was cussing in front of kids, grabbing people, and eventually
        threatened to strangle someone). Then we got on another train line.
        My total cost was $10 per person round trip. Oh, yes, I can't wait to
        take public transit again. It is so much cheaper, more convenient,
        and pleasant than driving. My drive out to Cape Cod went well,
        \_ you're more than welcome to drive in Boston or NYC. Good luck.
           If you're skilled enough to drive, then drive. Obviously, you're
           not skilled enough to take the mass transit. I mean, if you take
           a New Yorker (who normally doesn't drive) and stick him in
           Los Angeles, what would he have to say about driving? Probably
           as much praise as you give to mass transits. You're as dumb
           as your trolls.
        though. $20 in gas to drive by myself 200 miles in air conditioned
        comfort and incontrol of my own itinerary. Imagine that. Next chance
        for public transit will be to go to the Museum of Fine Art. I am
        anxiously awaiting to see what Strike Three is because I won't
        count being passed by in Berkeley seeing as a bus is not public
        transit. Only high-speed Euro-style rail from LA to Las Vegas
        counts as public transit.
        \_ Why not take your car to the Museum of Fine Art and tell us how
           it goes?
           \_ I've driven in Boston twice now. It's a pain. I prefer it to
              mass transit and I will drive a lot more than I planned
              based on my experiences so far. If I ever go back to
              Cambridge I will definitely drive there. Also, there's a
              rstaurant in Beacon Hill I want to try. I will drive there,
              too. Apparently the best way to get around is by cab. Is a
              cab considered mass transit? I will be in Manhattan in a
              week and I plan on taking cabs there and never touching the
              mass transit.
        \- i have never taken muni in the ~5yrs i have lived in SF and even
           *i* took the T in Boston [even when on expense account so no
           cost to parking, rental etc]. although i walked to the MFA.
           if you go to the MFA see the excellent Dante and Vergil "buddy
           movie' bronze. there is also some total fraud there like this:
  and the stuff like the RRAUSCHENBERG
           cardboard boxes.
           \_ I took it, too, but my experiences have sucked. Having the
              police come to cart a crazy guy off of a bus that you
              weren't supposed to take except that the line you needed
              closed unexpectedly tends to ruin the experience.
        \_ Misanthropes should probably not ride transit, if they can avoid it.
           \_ Well, that's the problem with mass transit. Anyone can and
              does ride it.
2008/6/19-23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:50307 Activity:moderate
6/19    Heard this on KNX LA radio: Overall CA automobile usage has gone
        down about 1.5% from 2007 to 2008. Los Angeles and S Cal in
        general did not notice any change.
        \_ Uh, what has LA's population done in that time?
        \_ LA values personal freedom. I devote a very high % of my income
           to not have to take public transit. I'm glad it works for you.
           I hate it. Last time I was in the Bay Area I waited 30 minutes
           for a bus on San Pablo in El Cerrito and when it showed up the
           driver blew right by me without stopping even as I waved and
           ran to the curb (I was sitting in the kiosk) and the bus wasn't
           even 10% full. I guess you think this is acceptable. I don't.
           \_ I totally agree with you. Riding with people and waiting
              together is COMMUNISM. People in N Cal are closet COMMUNISTS.
              \_ Thank you for adding zero content to this thread.
           \_ I think you were passed by one of those Rapid Line buses.
              They only stop at certain intersections, about every .5 i think.
           \_ I think you were passed by one of those Rapid Line buses.  They\
             only stop at certain intersections, about every .5 i think.
              only have stops
              \_ Maybe, although the number of the bus was the one I needed.
                 This is another problem with public transit as it exists
                 in the US: the schedules are not posted at most of the
                 stops and when they are they are often out of date. Maybe
                 wireless devices will make this less of an issue soon. I
                 took public transit (BART, AC Transit and other buses, MUNI,
                 etc.) and while it worked fine it usually (with some
                 exceptions like to Oakland Coliseum) took much longer to
                 get where I needed to go. This is true in LA, too. I can
                 take Gold Line and get there in 2 hours or I can drive
                 and be there in 20 minutes - 30 with parking.
                 \_ The answer is stunningly simple: don't live so far from
                    where you "need to go" and you won't have this problem.
           \_ I used to live near San Pablo and worked in Emeryville, getting
              on the 72 RAPID was pretty sweet.  better than a rollercoaster
              at Great America with AC Transit's new Dutch buses that throw
              old ladies everywhere, but that's another story.
           \_ Last time I was in LA, I drove a rental car from LAX to my
              aunt's house in Riverside. It took me over 3 hours to go
              70 miles. I guess you think this is acceptable. I don't.
              \_ How long would it have taken you on a bus? What about
                 Metrolink? It's not much less. Overall I can get to
                 \_ His whole point was that LA really blows because it
                    lacks *REAL* mass transit systems, defined as systems
                    that work INDEPENDENTLY of the freeway infrastructures.
                    When the bridge collapsed, people could take BART.
                    But when 101/405 collapse in the future, what redundant
                    system do you have? LA totally blows. PS. Buses are
                    not real mass transit systems, mkay?
                    \_ You do remember the BART strike back in 1997, right?
                       And the 10 freeway did collapse in LA. It was back up
                       in less than a month.
                 Riverside in less than an hour unless I am unfortunate enough
                 to go during rush hour(s). Driving is much, much faster than
                 other methods 80% of the time and probably equivalent 10%
                 of the time leaving only about 10% of the time where I'd
                 even bother with transit. And then once at your aunt's
                 what happens when you need to go somewhere? Wait another
                 45 minutes for a bus and then transfer to another one and
                 then walk 5 blocks with your bags. Are you kidding me?
                 That stuff works in Tokyo or NYC where it's really dense.
                 Doing that in Riverside would be stupid. You made the
                 right move even if it cost you 2 hours up front.
                 \_ You are right, in LA I have no choice. Apparently you
                    think that is acceptable. I don't.
2008/6/18-22 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:50291 Activity:nil
6/18    "June 19 is a Free Transit Day!"
2008/5/7-9 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:49899 Activity:high 76%like:49910
5/7     Ride Bike question
        Is it worth it to put Slime in my inner tubes?  I just had a big
        blowout and it blasted Slime everywhere.  Good thing I still had my
        winter fenders on.
        \_ I'm not a big fan of any of the flat-reduction techniques.  -tom
        \_ I'm not a big fan of any of the breast-reduction techniques.  -tom
           \_ What about armadillo or other strenghtened tires? -op
              \_ "...any of the flat-rediction techniques."  Tires with
              \_ "...any of the flat-reduction techniques."  Tires with
                 more rubber can be OK for commuting, but don't believe
                 anything anyone tells you about "kevlar belts" or
                 whatever.  You'll still get flats.   -tom
                 \_ Of course you'll still get flats. The question is if you
                    will get fewer flats, and if these extra work/expense
                    is worth the reduction.  Personally, I have never found
                    slime to be worth anything. I didn't even notice a
                    reduction in flats when I tried it. -jrleek
                    \_ Do I need to spell out "I have tried a whole lot of
                       different flat-reduction products, and have not found
                       the reduction in flats to be worth the extra weight,
                       expense, and wonky handling"?  I thought that was
                       implicit.  -tom
                       \_ Well, I was looking for more info than in your first
                          response, so I was hoping you'd elaborate (which is
                          why I asked about armadillo).  I guess I shouldn't
                          have been surprised at your hostile response.  Do you
                          actually interact with people in real life? -op
                          \_ I rarely interact with anonymous cowards in real
                             life.  -tom
                             \_ So?  You were a jerk to me too. -jrleek
                                \_ Reciprocating.  -tom
                                   \_ In tom's world, all people have wronged
                                      him, so he's always justified in smacking
                                      any random person in the face. -op
        \_ What the hell is wrong with you people?  Do you weep uncontrollably
           on BART when people give you mean looks?  Tom just gave his opinion
           on shoving goo in your bike tires after you asked.  Grow thicker
           skin please.
           \_ No, most of them are too misanthropic to ever ride BART. That
              is why they live in the suburbs, so they don't have to interact
              with potentially unpredictable strangers.
           \_ No, most of them are too misanthropic to ever ride BART.
        \_ The most effective thing you can do to prevent flats is to inspect
           your tires frequently.  Look closely at the surface for things that
           are embedded in the rubber, or little cracks that have picked up
           debris from the road.  Most flats don't happen suddenly; they
           happen slowly as road debris gets pressed through your tire, then
           gets pressed into your inner tube.  Before you go for a ride,
           check your tires.  Every square inch.  Look closely.  Pull out
           that staple, dig the grain of sand out, remove the chip of glass.
           If you're doing this, then tires made of slightly thicker rubber
           will make a difference (I ride on Vredestein Fortezzas, but my tire
           selection is somewhat limited by my wheel size -- 650C).
           \_ Do you ride a triathlone bicycle?
              \_ No, I ride a recumbent.  --alawrenc
2008/4/3-9 [Finance/Shopping, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:49656 Activity:nil
4/3     What is cheapest parking near Embarcadero / Montgomery BART?
        Yes I know this is a weird question.
        \_ The St. Mary's Square garage was last I checked (2006).
           Anything at about $20 is good.
           Anything at about $20 is good (north of Market).
        \_ No, it is not weird at all. You can park in SOMA, at 2nd and
           Folsom, for $12/day. The address is 303 2nd St. You can park
           one block further away at 600 Harrison St, for $10/day. The
           area is mildly seedy after dark, but mostly safe these days. -ausman
2008/2/25-29 [Politics/Domestic/California, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:49241 Activity:high
2/24    so who here is up for giving FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS to
        AC Transit so they can completely foul up east bay city traffic by
        making bus only lanes up and down shattuck all the way down
        International, closely mirroring BART (why?  no clue), and
        to give San Francisco 1.5 billion to 6 billion dollars to
        build a 3 stop subway from Chinatown to the ballpark (they
        claim it'll cost 1.5 billion, this thing is going to go under
        the most densely populated spot on the entire west coast, yay
        sure it'll only cost 1.5 billion.
        \_ Roads are fucking expensive.  Traffic costs a shitload of money
           to deal with.  That's why the "trains aren't efficient" idiots
           don't have a leg to stand on.
           \_ Trains can be efficient, but you keep trying to cram that
              square peg into round holes. In *most* instances, trains are
              poor solutions to transit problems. There are *some*
              instances where they work, but they are few and far between.
              \_ yes, those few and far between places are called "cities"
                 \_ Cities of a certain size and density that are also
                    built around a central core of which there aren't many.
                    \_ yeah, cities with downtowns are so rare.  uh, not.
                       \_ How many factors did I cite? Cities that possess
                          all 3 are rare. For instance, LA and San Jose have
                          only 1 of the 3 (size). Many have downtowns but
                          not size or density. The concept of a downtown
                          is a turn of the century idea and the concept of
                          people commuting from suburbs to a downtown for
                          work is from maybe the 1930s and 1940s. It
                          hasn't been that way for a long time. How many
                          people out of the Bay Area population commute to
                          downtown SF for work? Not that many. Not even Tom.
                          Isn't it like 5%? (350K out of 7M) And that's
                          for a dense city with lots of high-paying jobs.
                          (Note: LA and SJ obviously have downtowns, but
                          these exist mostly in name only.)
                          \_ Seriously, I bet I could name hundreds. Do you
                             really want me to start? Anytime you have enough
                             density of population trains are the way to go.
                             \_ Just name 5 in CA.
                                \_ SF, LA, SD, Sacramento all could benefit
                                   from significant rail infrastructure.  Oh
                                   no, that's only four in CA!  You must be
                                   right!  -tom
                                   \_ All of your cities are too big and lack
                                      a real city center for a real train
                                      system.  Trains can supplement an auto
                                      system but never replace one.  The idea
                                      is simply ridiculous.
                                   \_ Oakland. There, that's five.
                                      \_ Yay!  What do we win?  -tom
                                   \_ Are you kidding? I didn't say to
                                      just list names of cities in CA.
                                      \_ Those are all cities in CA which
                                         were built on rail transit.  It's
                                         absurd to suggest that rail transit
                                         can't work in them.  -tom
                                         \_ Sacramento's farebox recovery
                                            ratio is 20%. You call that
                                            \_ Better than the 0% that the
                                               roads bring in.  Farebox
                                               recovery is a red herring. -tom
                                               \_ Roads are not 0%. Every
                                                  car on the road is
                                                  contributing through
                                                  fuel taxes and through
                                                  the purchase of the car
                                                  \_ If you count taxes,
                                                     the train system is
                                                     doing just fine, right?
                                                     Enough with the
                                                     irrelevanices.  -tom
                                                     \_ That's a disingenuous
                                                        response. You know
                                                        damn well that fuel
                                                        taxes are equivalent to
                                                        train fares as a
                                                        'use tax'.
                                                        \_ And what percentage
                                                           of the total cost of
                                                           auto usage is
                                                           recovered by fuel
                                                           \_ I dunno. Feel
                                                              free to calculate
                                                              and share.
                                \_ Oh, so *now* you come up with a new
                                   requirement. Any city built before 1950
                                   is probably going to be dense enough to
                                   support rail. That does exclude most of
                                   California's flash-in-the-plan unsustainable
                                   California's flash-in-the-pan unsustainable
        \_ $400M just for marking the lanes or paving new lanes?  URL please?
        \_ I'm not a big fan of the BRT proposal.  I'm not sure about the
           Chinatown proposal; it would be better if it went a little further
           into North Beach.  $1.5 billion is not that much money for a major
           infrastructure project; the Bay Bridge east span is costing
           four times that much (before they calculate the overruns).  -tom
           \_ $400M is also the ballpark for the Caldecott fourth bore and
              the Devil's Slide tunnel.  -tom
              \_ It was stupid to build the caldecott with 3 tunnels and it
                 was stupid how much politics has gotten in the way and
                 increased the price of the 4th bore over the last few
                 decades everyone knew it was needed.
                 \_ Obviously the free market didn't think it was needed,
                    then or now.  -tom
                    \_ Why should the free market provide what the gubmint
                       provides? You cannot compete with the government.
                       \_ The Caldecott was completed in 1937; the third
                          bore was added in 1964.  The free market had 40
                          years to put in a tunnel there.  Why didn't they?
                          The Bay Bridge could have been replaced, another
                          toll Bay crossing could be done privately.  Why
                          aren't these things done?  Because they're huge
                          \_ So if they are money-losers then why does
                             the government waste money on them? Sounds
                             like you are wising up.
                             \_ The purpose of government isn't to make money.
                                \_ Sign I saw today:
                                   "Paved roads: yet another example of
                                   government waste."
                                   Maybe the government should consider what
                                   makes financial sense before committing to
                                   spend money that isn't theirs.
                                \_ If it's making investments on behalf of the
                                   public, the investments should have some
                                   real value to that public. Of course the
                                   problem again is accurately quantifying the
                                   benefit of such shared resources, who
                                   receives that benefit, and who should pay.
                                   And what other things might we use those
                                   resources for?
                                   Do I, living in the South Bay, really give
                                   a shit about the Bay Bridge? I wouldn't
                                   personally pay to use it. Would it stimulate
                                   economic growth of the area? I don't know,
                                   maybe it just screws with the natural
                                   market-driven path of development in other
                                   \_ There's no such thing as a "natural
                                      market-driven path".  It's a tautology.
                                      Yes, the government should evaluate
                                      different ways to invest public money
                                      to "promote the general welfare"
                                      (remember that bit?)
                                      As I've already noted many times, the
                                      cost/benefit equation is much better
                                      for rail than for roads; the analysis
                                      has been done.  The only reason the
                                      U.S. doesn't build more rail is
                                      politics and the power of the
                                      corporations.  -tom
                          Every $1.00 spent on highway construction returns
                          11 cents in congestion reduction benefits.  -tom
                          \_ No point in drilling an extra bore. New roads
                             become filled to capacity almost immediately
                             anyway, mostly with frivolous trips. There is
                             an almost unlimited appetite for "free" ways.
                             \_ I like the way you think.  Since there's no
                                point in providing a service that will *gasp*
                                just get used(!!!) we should only provide
                                services people don't need or want.  They won't
                                get used and we'll save a lot of money.  Bravo!
                          \_ Why didn't they?  Because government regulations
                             make it impossible for non-government to do such
                             a thing.  Duh.  You can't just build your own
                             bridge anywhere you damned well feel like it.
                             You're just trolling now, right?  You can't
                             actually believe this stuff.
                             \_ Perhaps you could list all the proposals
                                private companies came up with for building
                                new tunnels and bridges in the Bay Area.
                                Surely there would be some interest in a
                                new Bay crossing, even if it required a toll.
                                And private industry is (ideologically) so
                                much more efficient than government, they
                                should be able to do it cheaper, right?
                                Why didn't they try to supply the demand?
        \_ You are right, they should spend twice as much and run it all
           the way to Fisherman's Wharf. Someday they will, I am sure. We
           spend more then $1.5B in Iraq every week.
           \_ Iraq?  Yawn.  Has nothing to do with anything.  "We've spent
              money on dumber things before!" is not a reason to spend money
              on some other dumb thing, even a somewhat less dumb thing.
              \_ Stop wasting all that money in Iraq and we will have money
                 for all kinds of useful things, like transit.
2008/2/22-26 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:49215 Activity:high
2/22    How much does rail cost per mile as compared to a road both for
        design and acquisition and also ongoing maintenance?
        \_ How many lanes of a road?  What's the price of land?  Land for one
           lane-mile of road is certainly cheaper in rural Nebraska than in
           Bay Area.  Of course the same applies to rail too, but rail
           ususally occupies much less land.
           usually occupies much less land.
           \_ key word!
           \_ Assume the land cost is not an issue. You are going to build
              on land you already own. As for how many lanes, something
              functionally equivalent. 2 lanes for a line going nowhere
              and maybe 12 lanes for a main artery. For sake of argument
              assume a 4 lane road (2 each direction) versus 2 tracks (1
              each direction).
              each direction), but if you can compare each lane of road
              with each line of track that's just as good.
              \_ Why would you assume land cost is not an issue?  A 10-lane
                 freeway takes 3-4 times as much land as a dual-track rail
                 \_ Because it's not one of my assumptions? I don't want
                    the cost of land to complicate things, because then
                    you get into tunnels versus surface and all kinds of
                    other issues. Assume that the land is not part of the
                    cost and we can add it in later if need be.
                    cost and we can add it in later.
                 \_ Until one of those tracks is blocked and the whole rail
                    line stops for most of the day leaving all passengers
                    stuck.  You really need 3 tracks to avoid that problem
                    but you'll never get 3 tracks in the real world.
                    \_ An overturned truck can also block all lanes of one
                       direction of a freeway.  It happened on 101S in Redwood
                       City on Jan 29.  What's worse is that it also
                       significantly slowed down 101N which was not blocked at
                       all because of its spectator value.  A stopped train
                       direction of a freeway.  It happened on 101 in Redwood
                       City on Jan 29.  What's worse is that a freeway accident
                       in one directory also slows down the other direction
                       because of its spectator value.  A stopped train
                       blocking a track doesn't slow down trains on the track
                       in the opposite direction.
                       \_ I'm on a train.  It stops.  I'm fucked.  I'm in my
                          car.  There's a problem on the bridge.  Unless I'm
                          already on the bridge I can turn off and go another
                          way, go home, go to Starbuck's, etc.  If the train
                          was your only means of transportation, then you and
                          everyone else are 100% stuck, even people who have
                          not left home yet.  Car mobility >>> train mobility.
                          \_ How often does this actually happen? I can imagine
                             all kinds of catastrophies that effect cars more
                             often than a grade seperated train, in fact that
                             often than a grade separated train, in fact that
                             is how it actually works in the real world. The
                             variability for driving from Antioch -> SF is
                             much higher than it is for taking BART.
                             train reliability >>>> car reliability
                             train safety >>>>> car safety
                             \_ Anecdote: I took Amtrak in December.  The
                                train was stopped for 5 hours because someone
                                decided to end his life by getting drunk and
                                sitting on the tracks.  I was told this happens
                                a fair bit around Christmas time.  Of course
                                they had to stop the train for the
                                investigation team to get there, and also to
                                change the engineers (who had a right to a
                                'vacation' since they basically ended a human
                                life and couldn't stop it). -- ilyas
                                \_ Obviously, you don't commute to/from
                                   Los Angeles and suburbs on the 405,
                                   the 101, the 10, like most of the
                                   \_ According to this Keanu Reeves movie I
                                      saw once, one is to stay off LA freeways.
                                        -- ilyas
                                \_ Anecdote: I routinely drive from SF to
                                   Sacramento to visit the in-laws. Twice out
                                   of the last five trips, a 70 minute drive
                                   took four hours, for no reason that I could
                                   figure out. I decided that henceforth, I
                                   would rather spend 2 1/2 hrs on the train
                                   than 4 hours stuck in traffic, especially
                                   since I have a toddler that would rather
                                   run around than be stuck in a car seat. Plus,
                                   my chance of getting killed by some bad
                                   driver is much, much lower. And it costs
                                   run around than be stuck in a car seat.
                                   Plus, my chance of getting killed by some
                                   bad driver is much, much lower. And it costs
                                   about the same either way.
                          \_ If you are stuck on a train it's usually a lot
                             nicer than being stuck in a car, or in stop+go.
                             Unless you are in some fancy car with a chauffeur,
                             Then again, thinking of my old BART experience and
                             the weird people that sometimes shared my train
                             car, I might rethink this position.
                       \_ I was stuck on the Bay Bridge for five hours when
                          a truck fire closed it.
                          \- me too. it took 20min to drive through the
                             tunnel. people were running out of gas, falling
                             alseep etc.
        \_ Rail is much cheaper to operate in a per passenger mile kind of way,
           but I don't know about in a mile kind of way. That question doesn't
           but I don't know about in a mile kind of way. You question doesn't
           really make sense, since an unused freeway or railway costs less
           to maintain.
           \_ If it's unused it still costs the same, at least the rail
              does, because it still needs to run regularly whether ridership
              is low or not. Maybe highways cost a lot less to maintain with
              less use. Not sure. You can assume both are used at full
              capacity if it produces some numbers. I know rail is cheaper per
              passenger mile if every train is full, but that's not my
              question. Also, there's still the whole part about the cost to
              build if you can't answer the maintenance question. I
              suspect that roads cost the government less, because a big part
              of the costs (the vehicle, fuel, and even some construction
              via fuel taxes) are paid for by private parties. How does
              this compare with the fares paid versus the rail costs? Two
              numbers fall out, which are overall cost and cost to the
              government. I suspect overall cost is higher for roads, but
              cost to the government is higher for rail.
              \_ That's a matter of the choices we make.  We could make
                 drivers pay the full cost and tax to pay for rail, instead
                 of the other way around, if we wanted to.  One could argue
                 that that is the morally defensible position.  -tom
                 \_ I think the goal should be for the government to pay
                    as little as possible and let the free market decide
                    which makes more sense. These calculations are
                    difficult, but the markets can find the efficiency.
                    End all subsidies to rail and roads and see where you
                    end up. I suspect in most places it will be roads and
                    no rail system.
                    \_ That's an ideological stance; do you have any facts
                       to support it?  It is well known that markets do
                       a poor job of pricing externalities like pollution.
                       And in places where drivers pay a larger portion of
                       the cost of driving than they do in the U.S., they
                       drive less and have better rail systems.  -tom
                       \_ Better question: Do you have any evidence that
                          command economies do a better job than the free
                          market, because there's a lot of evidence to the
                          \_ There is plenty of evidence that countries which
                             fund more infrastructure centrally have better
                             infrastructure.  This should be obvious.  -tom
                             \_ Well, duh. But is that the right choice?
                             \_ That's not what he asked.
                                \_ What he asked is a straw man; I'm not
                                   arguing for a command economy.  -tom
                                   \_ Yes, you are when you are advocating
                                      determining what the market is or
                                      should be instead of letting the
                                      free market handle the problem.
                                      \_ The free market cannot handle the
                                         problem; the free market will choose
                                         the solution with the greatest
                                         cost externality.  At the very least
                                         you need the government to
                                         internalize the costs so a market
                                         is plausible.  -tom
                                         \_ Oh, I think the free market can
                                            handle it just fine. Why do
                                            you think otherwise?
                                            \_ how about, the work of various
                                               mathematicians and economists
                                               which shows that the free
                                               market is inefficient when
                                               dealing with externalized
                                               costs?  -tom
                                               \_ Which externalized costs
                                                  do you think are relevant
                                                  \_ The cost of fuel
                                                     acquisition and the
                                                     effects of pollution,
                                                     for two.  -tom
                                            \_ Maybe you could provide one real
                                               world example of that happening.
                                               \_ Yes, the free market has
                                                  been an unmitigated disaster,
                                                  \_ Just answer the question,
                                                     if you can. We both know
                                                     there are no such examples,
                                                     and it has been a failure
                                                     when tried. Well maybe you
                                                     are so ignorant of history
                                                     you don't know the latter.
                                                     Show me a free market
                                                     example of a working
                                                     transportation system.
                                                     \_ Well, ocean and air
                                                        lines... they don't
                                                        need to build the
                                                        tracks/roads, only use
                                                        When has a free market
                                                        transportation system
                                                        been tried, in a
                                                        country that wasn't
                                                        impoverished or in
                                                        some anarchic state?
                                                        \_ An anarchic state
                                                           would be ideal for
                                                           the free market to
                                                           create solutions,
                                                           right?  -tom
                                                           \_ What a stupid
                                                              comment. -- ilyas
        \_ $1 billion dollar per mile 3-stop train in China town!  trains woot!
           \_ Big Dig: $14.6B for 7 miles of road in Boston! Carz rule!
              \_ Exactly.  Thanks for providing an excellent example of why
                 we don't want government messing with anything it doesn't
                 have to.
                 \_ yeah, because private industry was chomping at the bit to
                    run a project like the Big Dig.  Not to mention the now
                    $6 billion Bay Bridge project.  Oh wait, all those cost
                    overruns were due to private contractors; funny, that. -tom
                    \_ Point is that if private industry didn't want to
                       do it then maybe there's a reason for that and it
                       shouldn't have been done.
                       \_ The reason is that private industry does things
                          which are profitable, not things which are needed.
                          \_ If it's needed then there is profit in it.
                             Otherwise, people don't really want it. Why
                             do you insist on telling people what they want?
                             \_ I want to breathe clean air, where is the
                                market for that?
                                \_ Have you seen ozonizers? Filters?
                                   Companies are working hard to capitalize
                                   on your the demand with alternative
                                   fuel vehicles, fuels, and so on. It's
                                   not an easy problem to solve but the
                                   market will solve it.
                                   \_ Wow... amazing...
                          Private industry would never have replaced the
                          eastern span of the Bay Bridge; it's more profitable
                          to run it the way it is.  Do you think the Bay Area
                          will be better off with a bridge that will survive
                          an earthquake?  What is the value of being able to
                          travel easily from Oakland to San Francisco?  -tom
                          \_ You are talking about building codes now,
                             which is ridiculous. Sure, I agree that the
                             government should safeguard the health of its
                             citizens to some degree. (I oppose mandatory
                             cycle helmets, but applaud meat inspectors.)
                             However, the bridge was just fine for 65
                             years. It might make more sense to just
                             operate it until it eventually collapses in a
                             disaster. I haven't seen any actuarial
                             tables, but hopefully someone did that study
                             and how it made more financial sense to
                             replace it first.
                          travel easily from Oakland to San Francisco?  -tom
        \_ So no one has any numbers? What are you basing your opinions
           on then? Some numbers would be nice and much more convincing
           than this socialist bullshit about how the government knows best
           how to spend our dollars. If I want to build a transit system
           that goes from San Diego to LA over land that I own then how
           much will it cost to do rail vs. road?
           \_ I know wher to get the numbers, but I am not willing to waste my
           \_ I know where to get the numbers, but I am not willing to waste my
              time arguing with a fool. You can use Google as well as I can.
              \_ But Google has a liberal bias!
              \_ Just post them. No need to argue if you don't want. The
                 numbers should drive your point home w/o need for any
                 arguing, hence the original (and unsatisfied) request.
                 If you show me it costs 50% of the cost of a road to install
                 a rail system with similar capacity then I'm on board with it.
           \_ You may wish to see:
              that whole website is chock full of transit info
              A Conservative Critique of 12 Anti-Transit Myths
              \_ No one is disputing rail can be effective. Is it *cost*
                 effective? The "myths" article did a very poor job with
                 that particular "myth" (and some others, too). For
                 instance, can you replace all roads with rail? No? What % can
                 you replace? How does that % compare to the % spent on rail?
                 It's useless to know the total $$$ spent on roads. If everyone
                 decided to commute by rail tomorrow then how much more
                 needs to be spent on enhancing and maintaining the rail
                 system? How much would still need to be spent on roads
                 regardless? This is the kind of analysis I never see done.
                 That is why I am in favor of the free market sorting it
                 out. Every individual's decision will contribute to an
                 efficient collective decision. If you are going to dictate
                 transport then you need to do a real freaking analysis
                 and it won't be easy.
                 \_ Los Angeles is a perfect example of a free-market
                    style of creating a city. City planning is too much work,
                    so why don't we let the developers build wherever they
                    want, whenever they want, and the rest of the solutions
                    will come later. Is this Los Angeles your idea of
                    free market utopia?
                    \_ Forget it, Jake.  It's Chinatown.
                       \_ What about Chinatown?
                 \_ We get it.  You have an ideology.  Thanks for playing. -tom
2008/2/11 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:49118 Activity:high 83%like:49105
2/8     Looking to buy our first home on a tight budget. Which east bay areas
        near a BART station (within walking distance) are generally considered
        More criteria/info: limit = 400k, walking much more preferred than
        short drive, but acceptable if I don't have to worry about getting
        there early for parking space. School not high on priority. I'm mainly
        trying to see if there were any BART station areas I didn't realize
        was safe (Union City, for example.) Thanks for the info so far.
        \_ There's a ton of housing 5 minutes drive from the Dublin/Pleasanton
           BART and lots of parking.  I did tiny drive to BART->SF for years.
           Walkable in that area are all apartments built around the BART.
           \_ Isn't that area pretty expensive though?
              \_ Depends on your idea of expensive.  Is $600k for a yard, top
                 scoring schools, near zero crime rate, clean streets and
                 no gang bangers, all within a few minutes of BART expensive
                 to you?
                 \_ plus you have a beautiful view of the prison!
           \_ How soon do you have to get to the parking lot to get a space?
              Don't they fill up pretty early?
        \_ Does this have anything to do with the LOW INTEREST RATE?
        \_ Walking distance is a pretty high bar in the suburbs, but I will
           assume you can walk pretty far:
           El Cerrito - safe but kind of foggy, with not great schools
           Walnut Creek - safe, but not sure what your budget is
           Concord - safe probably a good bet
           Pittsburg - getting cheaper by the minute, you might have to drive to
           Pittsburg - getting cheaper by the minute, you might have to drive
           to [BART]
           \_ why walk when you can drive?                      -American
        \_ Union City.  I see many people (compared to other suburbs) walking
           during the day and early evening in the BART station neighborhood.
           (along Alvarado Niles Rd, Decoto Rd, etc.)  It's quiet at late
           night though.  Schools are only okay.  I don't actually take BART.
           I take the AC Transit Line M Bus that stops at the UC BART station.
           \_ What are the areas around the Hayward and Castro Valley BART
              stations like?
              \_ Hayward: many people walk during the day and evening, but the
                 type of people that you see in the evening doesn't make you
                 feel safe.
                 Castro Valley: no idea.
                 -- PP
2008/2/8-11 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:49105 Activity:moderate 83%like:49118
2/8     Looking to buy our first home on a tight budget. Which east bay areas
        near a BART station (within walking distance) are generally considered
        \_ There's a ton of housing 5 minutes drive from the Dublin/Pleasanton
           BART and lots of parking.  I did tiny drive to BART->SF for years.
           Walkable in that area are all apartments built around the BART.
           \_ Isn't that area pretty expensive though?
              \_ Depends on your idea of expensive.  Is $600k for a yard, top
                 scoring schools, near zero crime rate, clean streets and
                 no gang bangers, all within a few minutes of BART expensive
                 to you?
        \_ Does this have anything to do with the LOW INTEREST RATE?
        \_ Walking distance is a pretty high bar in the suburbs, but I will
           assume you can walk pretty far:
           El Cerrito - safe but kind of foggy, with not great schools
           Walnut Creek - safe, but not sure what your budget is
           Concord - safe probably a good bet
           Pittsburg - getting cheaper by the minute, you might have to drive to
           \_ why walk when you can drive?                      -American
        \_ Union City.  I see many people (compared to other suburbs) walking
           during the day and early evening in the BART station neighborhood.
           (along Alvarado Niles Rd, Decoto Rd, etc.)  It's quiet at late
           night though.  Schools are only okay.  I don't actually take BART.
           I take the AC Transit Line M Bus that stops at the UC BART station.
           \_ What are the areas around the Hayward and Castro Valley BART
              stations like?
              \_ Hayward: many people walk during the day and evening, but the
                 type of people that you see in the evening doesn't make you
                 feel safe.
                 Castro Valley: no idea.
                 -- PP
2008/2/4-7 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:49060 Activity:high
2/4     Hey dimwit, I'm subsidizing for your wasteful LA freeways, what
        would you have to say if LA roads were toll roads like in the
        People's Republic of New England?
        \_ Go for it. We're headed there anyway. The carpool lanes are
           well on their way to becoming toll lanes. Maybe they won't
           have potholes once someone is concerned about them. I'm
           subsidizing BART which does nothing but lose money. How about
           we make it pay for itself, too?
           \_ How about we accept that there are some social goods (the ability
              to travel without having to be rich) that outweigh our fiscal
              \_ The motd keeps telling me all these fees and taxes are for
                 the services I get from local government.  Now I'm told they
                 are just a social good.  Which is it?  I don't have kids,
                 should I pay school taxes?  I do use the freeways which you
                 say is a social good and thus should be free, but the op says
                 they are wasteful and should be usage-fee-based which is
                 contrary to your claims of free travel being a social good
                 we should pay for with everyone's taxes.  Which is it?
                 \_ School taxes: yes; an educated populace beats an uneducated
                    populace and has social side-effects that translate into
                    less expenditures down the line. I'm saying that some
                    things are worth paying for, no matter that they don't pay
                    for themselves, BART and Amtrak included. -!op
                    \_ Why is BART worth paying for if it can't pay for itself?
                       Why not buy everyone a car, or a donkey, or a bike,
                       or a helicopter?
                       \_ Are you being disingenuous?
                          Rail is the most space-efficient and
                          energy-efficient way to transport large numbers
                          of people over significant distances.  BART itself
                          is pretty fucked up, but public funding of rail
                          in urban areas is way more obviously of public
                          benefit than public funding of freeways.  -tom
                          \_ Rail is really inefficient if you have to go
                             somewhere without rails nearby.
                             \_ gee, so are roads.  That's why you build
                                infrastructure.  -tom
                                \_ Roads are cheaper infrastructure than
                                   building rail to the driveway of my house.
                                   \_ The freeway, the surface street, the
                                      residential street, and your driveway
                                      draw funds from several different
                                      sources. Mix and match and see what cost
                                      you come up with.
                                      \_ I'm sure it's cheaper than rail
                                         if only because I don't have to
                                         buy a train. If you advocate that
                                         we each buy our own train then I
                                         don't see how it's any better
                                         than what we have now.
                                         \_ Rail is much cheaper on a
                                            per-passenger basis.  And enough
                                            with the straw men.  -tom
                                            \_ These are not straw men. This is
                                               reality. I need to get from
                                               my house to my office. My
                                               neighbor needs to get from
                                               his house to his office.
                                               Rail is not a good way to
                                               solve this problem unless
                                               we are both going to offices
                                               very close to each other.
                                               Even in Europe, with great
                                               public transit, buses are vital.
                                               If you're going to use buses
                                               then you need roads, so what is
                                               the point of rail? I actually
                                               think rail is the least
                                               efficient solution. Rail is
                                               great to get large amounts of
                                               goods (or people) from point A
                                               to point B, but that's not often
                                               the problem that needs solving.
                                               \_ Are you really this stupid?
                                                  Buses feed rail arteries.
                                                  Obviously you still need
                                                  local streets; it's not at
                                                  all clear that you need
                                                  freeways.  Certainly
                                                  freeways are far less
                                                  efficient than rail.  -tom
                                                  \_ Are freeways really that
                                                     expensive compared to the
                                                     miles and miles of local
                                                     roads which we need
                                                     anyway?  Replacing all
                                                     freeways with rail sound
                                                     freeways with rail sounds
                                                     rather stupid to me. Even
                                                     the Germans have the
                                                     Autobahn. You are
                                                     projecting your love of
                                                     bike here against
                                                     common sense.
                                                     \_ The ROI on dollars
                                                        spent on high-speed
                                                        rail infrastructure
                                                        is higher than dollars
                                                        spent on freeway
                                                        More passenger-miles
                                                        per dollar, fewer
                                                        emissions per dollar.
                                                        That's common sense.
                                                        \_ Your ROI depends on
                                                           the problem you are
                                                           solving. Taking
                                                           1500 cargo
                                                           containers from a
                                                           port to a warehouse,
                                                           sure. Taking 1500
                                                           people from their
                                                           homes to 1500 places
                                                           of employment maybe
                                                           not. As I said,
                                                           even in Europe
                                                           and Japan they have
                                                           roads and freeways.
                                                           Rail is just an
                                                           additional cost to
                                                           add to that. It can
                                                           help eliminate
                                                           congestion at
                                                           certain times, but
                                                           your ROI argument
                                                           leads me to believe
                                                           that congestion is
                                                           not your main issue
                                                           and that relief
                                                           comes with a high
                                                           price you refuse to
                                                           \_ That's because
                                                              the price isn't
                                                              high, relative
                                                              to the costs of
                                                              building and
                                                              running a
                                                              freeway and all
                                                              the cars on it.
                                                              \_ But you
                                                                 we need roads,
                                                                 so why pay
                                                                 more for rail,
                                                                 \_ How the
                                                                    hell did
                                                                    your brain
                                                                    get stuck
                                                                    in binary?
                       \_ A helicopter?  That's a truly great idea!  I always
                          wanted a helicopter.  If you ran for office on the
                          "helicopter on every pad!" platform you'd have my
                          vote!  I don't need a donkey or a bike, though.
                       \_ Suppose there were 300K more cars on the road in
                          the Bay Area. One thing you're paying for is your
                          commute not to be even worse than it is.
                          \_ I don't live in the Bay Area, so I'm really
                             paying for not much of benefit to me.
                             \_ You aren't paying for it then either, since
                                BART is mostly funded by fares + the 1/2 cent
                                regional sales tax.
                                \_ "mostly"
                                   \_ Yes, 100% of the operating costs, in
                                      fact. Not sure how much of the capital
                                      costs, less than 100% though.
                          \_ Bart subtracts 300K cars? Says who? How are they
                             distributed? What else might those resources have
                             been used for?
                             \_ It's hypothetical. You can base it on the
                                average weekday ridership of >300K if you
                                like. Point is, do you remember what traffic
                                was like the last time there was a major
                                BART outage?
                                \_ "No, I was in LA and it didn't affect
                                   me at all, therefore your argument is
                                   weak."       -pretending to be dimwit
                                   \_ Another way of thinking about it is
                                      to imagine Bay Area traffic being like
                                      LA traffic.
                                      \_ Or even worse, Seattle.
2008/1/9-12 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:48918 Activity:high
1/9     How walkable is your neighborhood?
        I got a 72, but what got listed for my local bookstore is actually the
        local porn store. hmm...
        \_ 89.  Ride Bike!  The biggest distance was for movie theaters,
           which is wrong; it missed the Piedmont Theater.  Other than that,
           nothing more than half a mile away. -tom
           \_ 89 for the Grand Lake Theater neighborhood as well. It missed
              that the Albertsons was replaced by a Trader Joe's. --erikred
        \_ This site is BIASED towards people who live near the city.
           It must have been written by yuppie urbanites. Nice troll.
        \_ Better if it included CRIME DATA. I mean, Detroit is pretty
           walkable to Pawn Shops, Cigar Stores, Hip Hop Heaven, and
           Aladin Bail Bonds, but do you seriously want to walk in it?
        \_ Porn store makes it more walkable by giving you a third leg.
        \_ Woo 15/100!  Richmond Marina Bay area.
        \_ It doesn't take into account bus stops and BART stations.  My
           in-law's place in Sunset District which is right next to a Muni
           streetcar terminal only gets 54.
           \_ Woo, 8/15! -- Marco
        \_ It doesn't take into account public transit stops.  My in-law's
           place in Sunset District which is right next to a Muni streetcar
           terminal only gets 54.
           \_ Maybe you need to go to instead of
              this biased site.
           \_ They should include transit stops, I agree and give points
              for being close to transit, just like they give points for
              being close to a coffee shop.
        \_ Site is lame.  They included junk like 'curves' and jamba juice as
           a plus for my area.  At least they included the nearby park but
           they totally missed the walking trails.  What is more walkable
           than a trail designed for it?
        \_ 86 for my little casa on the edge of Upper Noe. -ausman
        \_ 94 for living a few blocks from downtown SF in SOMA doosh doosh
        \_ 95 for my old apartment in downtown berkeley. gosh I shouldn't have
           moved -ERic
        \_ My SoCal suburb netted me a 58 and it missed a *lot* of
           businesses and totally neglected the mountain trails.
2007/9/13-14 [Science/Space, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:48055 Activity:nil
        You poor bastards trying to get home from SF... I weep for you.
        \_ Good news for those that usually don't use the affected on-ramp.
        \_ My wife and her co-workers take BART, and they live in Fremont and
        \_ Time for another tax cut!
2007/8/29-31 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:47812 Activity:low
8/29    Wed 8/29 and Thu 8/30 are Spare the Air days.  Ride public transit
        \_ Spare the Airbag days.
           \_ That too.  Less driving, fewer accidents.
        \_ Uh, last I heard public transit is only free until 1 or 2 in the
           afternoon, not all day.
           \_ Well, don't give yourself too much credit or sell yourself short.
              Libido can be affected by you not doing the dishes or stress at
              her work, or just about anything. Try communicating, but be
              prepared to be patient; odds are good you're not going to get the
              whole story the first time around, and no good will come of a
              conversation that begins with "Why don't you want to have sex
              anymore?" Last, if it's hormonal, she ought to see a doctor.
              1) It's often treatable, and 2) it can be a precursor to other
              medical conditions. Good look.
           \_ Only BART, Caltrain, ACE and the ferries are not free after 1pm.
              About 30 other transit agencies provide free rides all day.
2007/6/25-28 [Transportation, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:47054 Activity:high
6/25    dim, what is it about LA you like and SF you don't like?
        \_ kchang, why do you insist on calling people out without
           leaving your name?
           \_ Huh? I live in LA and I love LA           -kchang
           \_ why do people using various motd trackers call people out even
              though these tools are provably unable to accurately identity
        \_ Mostly the weather.
           \_ If so, you may prefer San Diego.
              \_ I like San Diego, but it's a little bit too provincial for me.
                 Maybe when I get a lot older. San Diego is basically a
                 suburb of LA anyway.
                 \_ Not as long as we have Camp Pendleton between us and them
                    it's not. As for provincial, well, sure, but I thought the
                    only reason you liked LA was the weather; SD beats LA.
                    \_ A main (not the only) reason I like LA > SF is the
                       weather. The weather is obviously not the reason I
                       prefer LA to San Diego, since the weather is pretty
                       similar (although San Diego's is *slightly* better).
                       As for SD being a suburb of LA, it pretty much is. I
                       even know people who live in SD and work in LA and
                       vice-versa. Maybe people in SD don't like to think it
                       is, but it is.
                       \_ And people can think that SD is a 'burb of LA, but
                          it isn't. Irvine is a 'burb of LA, as is Riverside.
                          \_ What's the difference between Riverside and SD?
                             They are both about equally far. In fact, a
                             lot of North County SD people commute to
                             Riverside and OC for work and there is commuter
                             rail service between SD and greater LA. Why
                             would you argue SD is not a suburb of LA? If
                             SD was the bigger city I'd call LA a suburb of SD.
                             \_ I don't live down there but I'd say it has more
                                to do with the size of SD and the cultural
                                identity of SD being distinct. Is Berkeley a
                                suburb of SF? Whereas Irvine and Riverside,
                                are pretty anonymous.
                                \_ Yes, Berkeley is a suburb of SF. I'd
                                   even say San Jose is, even though SJ
                                   is bigger. What about Long Beach? Is it
                                   a suburb of LA? I'd say it is.
                                   \_ Merriam-Webster: "suburb: 1 a : an
                                      outlying part of a city or town b : a
                                      smaller community adjacent to or within
                                      commuting distance of a city"
                                      A city is, by definition, not a suburb.
                                      However, Irvine is most certainly a
                                      suburb of LA, so I concede that this may
                                      be a matter of opinion.
                             \_ I graduated HS in '88 from San Marcos and my
                                parents still live there. Although some NC
                                folks may commute to LA, many, many more
                                commute to San Diego. The Pendleton divide is
                                both geographic and cultural.
                                \_ Pendleton Divide? 15, dude. Do you
                                   really feel the culture in SD is any
                                   different from LA? How so? (My sister
                                   lives in Escondido and has for 20 years.)
                                   The culture is all "Southern California"
                                   \_ If by Southern California Culture you
                                      mean strip malls and pre-packaged
                                      Jamba Juice-Starbucks-Panda Express-Gap
                                      pods, sure, North County's SCC. Downtown
                                      SD is not so.
                                      \_ How is downtown any different
                                         from Santa Monica or downtown LA
                                         or other large parts of LA area?
                                         \_ Baseball team and stadium, among
                                            other things.
                                            \_ Huh? So downtown LA has
                                               Staples and Dodger Stadium
                                               is nearby. These are
                                               amenities, not cultural
           \_ Isn't the weather better in Redwood City than in LA?
2007/6/18-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:46995 Activity:high
6/18    TLC (The Learning Channel) featured "Building the Future" where
        other countries are building big ass dams, longest manmade rivers,
        planned cities, fast mass transits, levys, etc. None of projects
        on the show is in the US. What have we built lately to secure
        our future?
        \_ We're building DEMOCRACY in the MIDDLE EAST!
           \_ as long as Hamas or Islamic Brotherhood or anyone else we don't
              like didn't win the election.
        \_ i wish we built more fast mass transits.  I don't think we need
           more big ass dams.  What would we dam?  we really should work
           on improving CA levies before CA gets turned into a vast desert
           wasteland by the next earthquake.
           \_ where exactly do you want to put these transits?
        \_We've built universities where all of the engineers come from that
          build these dams.  We also own all of the banks that finance these
          \_ We've also learned from studies that show that damming and
             concreting everything is neither as ecologically or economically
             productive as it first appears. A lot of countries that subsidize
             non-stop construction have hugely corrupt construction ministries.
        \_ We've built the strongest military force to secure whatever natural
           resources we want that are located in other countries.
           \_ This was a lot more successful in Civ1, not so much in Civ4.
            \_ I think you mean Civ2, Civ1 didn't have the same drive for
               natural resources.
        \_ We don't do 'projects' in the US anymore.  EIRs and NIMBYism
           will delay or kill almost any project.  What projects would you
           like to see in the US?
           \_ High speed rail. Maybe a big bridge somewhere. Personally, I would
              like to see something like another big water project, but I know
              this would be hard to build in today's environment. The sad truth
              is that the US is falling behind technologically.
           \_ High speed rail. Maybe a big bridge somewhere. Personally, I
              would like to see something like another big water project,
              but I know this would be hard to build in today's environment.
              The sad truth is that the US is falling behind technologically.
              \_ Where does your HSR go to/from?  Where did we need a bridge
                 where don't already have one?  Maybe an island off the
                 Alaskan coast?  ;-)   These are reasonably 'solved'
                 technologies.  The US is moving forward in materials sciences
                 with nano-everything and a lot of really solid bio work in
                 genetics and more traditional medicines/chemicals.
                 \_ There are literally dozens of obvious corridors in
                    the US for high-speed rail that would be cheaper,
                    faster, better for the environment, and far more
                    popular than flying or driving.  SF to LA is the
                    trivially simple example.  -tom
                 \_ There are literally dozens of obvious corridors in the US
                    for high-speed rail that would be cheaper, faster,
                    and far more popular than flying or driving.  SF to LA
                    is the trivially simple example.  -tom
                    \_ I wasn't saying there weren't.  I was just asking for
                       examples.  More on this in a bit.  Busy now.
                 \_ As someone who has to fly a lot for his job, I say 'fuck
                    flying.'  I would vastly prefer high speed rail to flying.
                    High speed rail stretching from San Diego to Seattle, say,
                    would be awesome.  -- ilyas
        \_ We fixed the MacArthur Maze?
        \_ the new bay bridge, should it ever get completed...
        \_ We still have the best space program. It doesn't secure our future
           but it's cool. We do get knowledge out of that although we don't
           hoard that all to ourselves. It adds to our civilization score.
           \_ We can barely get the shuttle into orbit anymore and the
              replacement is years away.  The current program outside of the
              JPL robotics work is an embarassment.
           \_ This is an excellent example of the best not being good enough.
              We could be much, much more.
2007/6/14-19 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:46953 Activity:low
6/14    Look Mr. Urbanite. Many people don't want your urban lifestyle.
        I prefer to trade an hour of traffic for 12 hours of country
        living serenity. I grew up in Plano TX with strip malls and
        office parks and I LIKE IT ok? Stop imposing your beliefs on
        others. Fucking communist.
        \_ there may have been a time where Plano TX was a sustainable
           lifestyle, with its gas guzzling a beautiful mini-malls-
           however that time has passed.  The rest of us live in the
           present and in reality.  Won't you join us?
        \_ ??? s/Many people/I/g
        \_ I realize this is a troll, but wouldn't you rather have
          a nice quiet train speedily take you to your country castle?
          Or is sitting in a mass of motionless cars filled with toxic
          fumes part of your fantasy?  Also, you could always go get
          a job in Tracy or wherever it is you are thinking.
          \_ nice quiet train?  like BART? with all the rifraff and homeless
             folks making noise and stinking up the place?
             \_ You must be riding a very different bart then am I.  Oh
                wait... you DON'T ride bart.
                \_ I've ridden BART on/off to work for about 10 years.  Some
                   days are good days.  Other days are far worse than mere
                   "rifraff and homeless folks making noise" the above person
                   is complaining about.  Maybe you got the special executive
                   bart car the public isn't allowed to ride?
                   \_ Maybe I've lived in cities and don't fear the other.
                      \_ You're a superior form of life.  Yawn.  Come back to
                         reality for a bit and you'll see how things really
                         are.  And oh hey, here's a shocker for you: you are
                         not the only person to have ever lived in a city.
                         \_ Bart is not a problem.  No really, I've had
                            very few problems with people on Bart being
                            obnoxious to a point where it bothered me.
                            Much less so than, say, obnoxious drivers on
                            the roads I drive.  Now the bus systems around
                            here on the other hand, they can get pretty bad.
                            There's some bus lines I just refuse to take
                            because the psycho percentage is just too damn
                            \_ Maybe I've lived in cities and don't fear the
                               other.  I've never had a problem on the bus.
             \_ right... so we need a better transit system... which was the
                point.  Your prisons are in your mind.
             Sitting?  crowded trains have most of the folks standing.
             Speedily?  When theres no traffic, the train is 1/2 to 1/3 as
             fast as driving.
             The biggest problem with public transit is ... the public ride it.
             - Regular Bart Commuter
             \_ I ride BART everyday and I usually get a seat. I wish
                they were a bit cleaner, but I like sharing the car with
                my fellow citizens, many of whom are cute girls. Maybe
                I am just not the misanthrope you are.
                \_ So you're one of those guys that harasses the girls so
                   much other people have to intervene?
             \_ One time a guy near me spent the entire trip masturbating
                through his sweatpants. Maybe it was motd boob guy. There was
                a 10yo city kid who found this quite amusing. See, that kid
                would never experience that if it weren't for public transit.
                \_ I have seen people masturbating and even getting a blowjob
                   in their cars. At least on the train, you might be able
                   to complain to someone and get them to stop.
                   \_ Complain to someone? I'm from Plano TX. I shot his
                      balls off!
        \_ it is quite sad that there many who grow up in urban
           areas living like rats in cage.  Most of the US's pathologies
           can be attributed to the fact that a segment of the
           population who are a byproduct of that culture
           now has control of the media and government and financial
           now has control of the media, government and financial
           \_ No, people living in urban environments GET OUT and
              talk to people who aren't exactly like them.  The cage is
              outer suburbia.  Yeah it's a big cage, but it is still
              a cage.
           \_ You are right, those suburban Texans have gotten control
              of the government and made a huge mess of things. What is
              it about suburban lifestyle that causes people to end up
              so violent and selfish??
        \_ Live however you like, just stop asking the rest of us to
           subsidize your wasteful lifestyle.
           \_ But people like him subsidize your precious BART.
              \_ they don't, actually
                 \_ they do, actually. BART cost billions to build and
                    is subsidized hundreds of millions a year.
                    \_ And so are freeways.  -tom
                       \_ Plus freeways take up more land than BART tracks.
                          \_ And they are much more useful. Anyway I never
                             claimed they weren't subsidized, I responded
                             to the "wasteful lifestyle" hypocrite.
                             \_ I am a hypocrite because I use less
                                resources than you? What??? How is
                                a freeway "much more useful" than
                                BART. You know that BART carries
                                many more passengers per lane than
                                a freeway does, right?
                                \_ I don't know that you use less than me.
                                   Your life is wasteful, shouldn't you
                                   kill yourself? Stop having children
                                   if you're so worried about this.
                                   Anyway the hypocrisy was about the
                                   Freeways carry many more people than
                                   BART per day and the roads go
                                   \_ Freeways carry less people per acre
                                   \_ Freeways carry fewer people per acre
                                      of land and per dollar spent and the
                                      roads only "go everywhere" because
                                      ridiculous amounts of money have been
                                      spent on them. It is probably not
                                      possible to live in America without
                                      using something that is subsidized,
                                      so by your logic, we should all just
                                      either kill ourselves, or shut up and
                                      accept the fate determined for us by
                                      our politicians.
              \_ Automobile drivers recieve a much larger subsidy than
                 rapid transit drivers.
                 rapid transit riders.
                 \_ So stop subsidizing both and let's see what happens.
                    BART will collapse and driving will be more expensive.
                    \_ BART collapsing would be a good thing; then we could
                       get a decent rail system in the Bay Area.  -tom
                    \_ I doubt it. Since driving a car to work would end
                       up costing quite a bit more than BART, I doubt
                       BART would collapse. Home prices in the suburbs
                       might collapse though.
                       \_ But see, BART doesn't go to most people's
                          destinations or start from most people's locations.
                          People generally drive to and from it in some form.
                          Sure I'll use BART if it happens to make sense in
                          instance foo but in general it doesn't. People
                          could drive much cheaper cars if it came to that.
                          \_ I walk to BART and then walk to work from BART.
                             More people could do that. But yeah, cheaper
                             cars are a start. If everyone drove little
                             carts that got 100 mpg, that would help, but
                             those carts don't go so fast, so people would
                             have to live closer together. Then it wouldn't
                             be the glorious suburbs anymore, would it?
                             \_ You can go really fast on little motorbikes
                                or trikes. I guess the issue is mainly
                                safety when you have to share the road with
                                huge trucks. So limiting vehicle weights
                                in urban areas could help. Commercial
                                vehicles could be limited also... giant
                                trucks are often used when smaller ones
                                would suffice. Smaller ones would have
                                better performance and efficiency and at
                                worst you need to hire another driver.
                                Long haul should use rail a lot more.
                                Those big trucks damage the roads more
                                than anyone else anyway. Or maybe they
                                should use... blimps!
                                \_ Now you are talking! This is a sci-fi
                                   future I would want to live in...
                                   \_ And they should force all the little
                                      vehicles to be bright safety orange or
                                      yellow. I'm sure it would save a life
                                      now and then, and accidents slow down
                                      everyone else on the road. So allowing
                                      dull colors and blinding chrome bits etc
                                      is pretty pointless for the sake of
                                      vanity. And let's see, since the cars
                                      are so small they could have rail cars
                                      for them pretty easy, for long trips,
                                      just stack them up. And parking could
                                      be designed for them and be much more
                                      dense. You could stack them with
                                      machines, with standardized sizing
                                      and use that on those rail cars too.
                                      And the blimps could carry the same
                                      rail cars. And houses could be built
                                      with much more efficient garages and
                                      such. Oh man.
                                      \_ Did you ever see The Fifth Element?
                                         \_ Didn't it have flying cars?
                                            \_ They promised us flying cars
                                               decades ago and I'm still
                \_ I have nice quiet trains... -Smug John
2007/6/4-10 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:46845 Activity:high
6/3     Ahh, that good 'ole suburban lifestyle: (Washington Post)
        \_ I spend 20 minutes commuting each way.  That's pretty short.
           Having a short commute is the only way I have time to exercise
           1+ hours/day, which is in turn the only reason I'm not
           completely fat.  (I'm only a little bit fat.)  I don't know
           how anyone can live the way this guy did.
           \_ Plenty of people are fat, stressed and ulcerated.
        \_ haven't we seen this before?  motd necromancy!
           \_ I think the last one was a NYT article.
        \_ I live so far from the city my city friends never heard of the
           place.  I also commute < 15 minutes each way, have lunch with
           my wife at least once a week and work no more than 40 hours a
           week over time.  Just because some people choose to live their
           lives poorly doesn't mean everyone has.
           \_ You must work in the same small town where you live.
           \_ Wait, so you're saying you work between 40 and 80 hrs/wk?
              What's your average, 60hrs/wk?
              \_ I mean I have an odd schedule where I work 44 hours one week
                 then 36 hours the next, so 40 hours/week averaged out.  It is
                 9 hours a day M-Th + 8 F, then 9 per day M-Th and Friday off.
                 I haven't done one of those 60-80 hour weeks in a few years.
                 I make a few $K less than I used to but not by much and have
                 a life now.
                 \_ Which company is this? We just started doing this
                    9/80 schedule as well.
           \_ To be fair, not everyone has the skills that can give them that
              kind of job.  Tech work is really nice that way.
              \_ When I used to BART into the city I'd see the same folks
                 every day and chat with a few of them.  Mostly they were non-
                 tech people who would have been better off not coming in to
                 the city for work.  One guy was a counter guy at a deli shop
                 who drove 30 minutes to BART and then another hour to the
                 city.  I don't know what he made but c'mon... counter guy at
                 the deli with a 90 minute commute.
                 \_ Bart time, while still suck, is much less suck when
                    compared to driving.
                    \_ Depends on how many hours/week you get stuck standing
                       the whole way bodily pressed against smelly people.
                 \_ At one job I worked at, I used to always come in late
                    and work late, so I got to know the janitor. Turns out
                    he drove in from Stockton (!) every day and had three
                    kids. He made $17/hr as a janitor in SF and could only
                    make $6.15 in Stockton. I guess 3X your salary is worth
                    a 2+ hr/day commute.
                    \_ Or better would be to move to another state where he
                       could live on $5.25 and not waste 2+ hr/day commuting
                       which he could spend going to school, starting a
                       business or just enjoying time with his family.
                       \_ The cost of living is less in other states, but it
                          is not 1/3 the cost of living in Stockton. This
                          guy was buying his own house, which you can't do
                          on minimum wage anywhere.
                          \_ It isn't just pure cost of living but the value
                             of his time as well.  If he spends it commuting
                             it is lost.  If he spends it in school or doing
                             something useful he can move up in society and
                             stop working as a janitor or sandwich maker.
                             \_ I think that way and you think that way,
                                but not everyone does. Once you have three
                                kids, your options narrow considerably.
                                \_ Once you have three kids, the *last* thing
                                   you should be doing is spending 3 hours a
                                   day commuting.  -tom
                                   \_ Once you have +1 kid you're whipped
                                      and your wife will forbid you to
                                      make any drastic changes to their
                                      lives. I presume you never had kids.
                                   \_ Someone deleted my response, but the
                                      best thing for the kids is if this
                                      guy triples his salary and gives his
                                      kids a better lifestyle. Do you
                                      think the kids who have parents on
                                      welfare (and who are home 100% of
                                      the time) are better off? Studies
                                      show that education and income
                                      correlate to success, not "quality
                                      time with the kids", even if that
                                      seems illogical. I presume it's
                                      because beyond a certain age kids
                                      are influenced more by teachers and
                                      peers than parents. Getting your
                                      kids away from gangsters is worth 3
                                      hours per day commuting.
                                      \_ Correlation is not causation.
                                         Kids need food, shelter, and
                                         good relationships with their parents
                                         far more than they need a huge
                                         house in Dixon or the latest
                                         Transformers toy.  -tom
                                         \_ You think this janitor is
                                            working for a huge house in
                                            Dixon and a Transformers toy?
                                            What kids need are parents who
                                            are able to care for them.
                                            That doesn't mean being with
                                            them 24/7. Do you think a 3
                                            hour commute is hurting the
                                            kids? Maybe a little, but it's
                                            a net positive considering the
                                            alternative is the dad at home
                                            and the kids in the slums. Kids
                                            need parents who care, not
                                            necessarily parents who are
                                            \_ reference please.  -tom
                                              \_ I cannot find the study
                                                 right now, but it stated
                                                 that parents' income and
                                                 education are the TWO
                                                 most important factors
                                                 for having successful
                                                 children with everything
                                                 else having just a slight
                                                 effect. Here is one paper
                                                 that states that the effect
                                                 of employment of the father
                                                 is negative, but small.
                                                 \_ uh, yeah, and how is
                                                    commuting 3 hours for
                                                    a minimum-wage job
                                                    improving parental
                                                    income or education?
                                                    You're also reading
                                                    the study wrong; it
                                                    says that the effect
                                                    of father's employment
                                                    is small--that is, if
                                                    the father is *unemployed*,
                                                    there is a small negative
                                                    effect.  It doesn't say
                                                    anything about an employed
                                                    father who is spending
                                                    12 hours a day working and
                                                    commuting.  The same study
                                                    also notes that children
                                                    who experience single
                                                    parenthood have
                                                    significantly lower
                                                    educational attainments.
                                            \_ Why is it a choice of 3 hours
                                               of commuting to a janitor job
                                               vs. welfare and slums?  He
                                               can work for lower pay in a
                                               cheaper place and spend that
                                               wasted 3 hours bettering his
                                               life so he won't be a friggin
                                               janitor forever.
                                               \_ As someone else said,
                                                  nowhere is cheap enough
                                                  to survive on minimum
                                                  wage and a lot of the
                                                  cheapest places are full
                                                  of redneck hicks, which
                                                  makes minorities
                                                  uncomfortable. (I am
                                                  assuming he is a
                                                  minority. Please correct
                                                  me if he is not.)
                                                  \_ Minimum wage and a family
                                                     of 4 puts you well below
                                                     the poverty line which
                                                     means you're getting
                                                     piles of government
                                                     assistance for food and
                                                     housing, as well as a
                                                     free education with those
                                                     2-3 saved hours a day so
                                                     you don't have to die as
                                                     a janitor or sandwich
                                                     \_ "Piles of government
                                \_ If I had 3 kids I'd definitely move far
                                   far away from the city.  My options would
                                   narrow in favor of raising my kids away
                                   from such an incredibly negative influence.
                                   \_ Even plenty of us who think that The City
                                      is an incredibly positive influence would
                                      move away, because we wouldn't be able
                                      to afford to live here. I am kind of
                                      curious, have you ever talked to anyone
                                      who was actually born and raised in
                                      San Francisco? Most of them seemed to
                                      have come out just fine.
                                      \_ Yes, I have.  What about it?
                                      \_ If fine == gay.
                                         \- you go  past 19th ave, or on top
                                         \- you know past 19th ave, or on top
                                            of twin peaks, or beyond glen park
                                            SF is a very different place from
                                            the downtown, marina, pacheights,
                                            mission, assland, western add,
                                            inner sunset, noe areas. and
                                            bayview type areas are in turn
                                            different in a different way.
                                            like someone i know who grew
                                            up in st. francis wood and then
                                            was ucb/tridelt, might as well
                                            have grown up in menlo park or
                                            mill valley. although i think
                                            people form danville or saratoga
                                            are a little different.
                                      \_ While it may not be true of all
                                         large cities, I've met
                                         disproportionately larger number of
                                         SF born/raised people who didn't
                                         know how to swim or ride a bike.
                                         While this doesn't make them "not
                                         fine," it does give them slightly
                                         different background with which to
                                         view the world.
2007/5/9-14 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:46571 Activity:nil
5/9     BART set ridership record last week: up 10% while meeting or beating
        on-time performance standard.
        \_ Well they also ran more trains...
        \_ And something about a detour for a large number of people in cars.
2007/4/30-5/1 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:46483 Activity:low
4/30    Free public transit in the Bay Area today!
        \_ I'm surprised that there was no surge in BART ridership on Monday.
           Usually there's a surge during Spare-The-Air free-transit days.
2007/2/5-6 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:45660 Activity:low
2/5     how did that guy from years ago forget BART cards?  I think he went
        to jail?
        \_ hOw did subject parse article.  OP does not make sense.  Stupid
           I think he is. -dans
           \_ Check that, he may be a cross or self-referential post-modern
              genius jumping between soda's motd and's motd. -dans
2007/1/31-2/3 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:45634 Activity:nil
1/31    looking for a house to rent in the concord area near bart?
        if so, search for 1519 allegro ave and mention
        to agent you saw posting here.
        \_ 4.2 miles to concord bart station is 'near bart' ?
           \_ Why not?  It's only a few minutes by car.  A friend of mine
              drives over an hour to get to the Pitsburgh(sp?) Bart to get
              to SF and then walks another 20 minutes to work.
              \_ Ride Bike!
                 \_ My friend uses Linux.  Does that count?
2006/10/18-21 [Consumer/PDA, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:44854 Activity:nil
10/18   Has anyone tried that BART pilot smart card program?  Thoughts?
2006/7/19-20 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:43731 Activity:nil
7/19    What is the cheapest shuttle service to OAK ?
        \_ Used the SuperShuttle a while ago and it was pretty cheap (less
           than $20). Don't know about now.
           \_yeah, a number of years ago that was the price from Berk.
              But they quoted me $100 from El Cerrito.
        \_ BART to Coliseum/Oakland Airport BART Station, then AirBART shuttle
           for $2.
2006/6/7-9 [Transportation/Airplane, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:43309 Activity:nil
6/7     Private companies are more efficient at generating revenues, period.
        If BART is willing to cut 1/2 of its unprofitable stops/destinations,
        it would get a lot more profit as well. Ditto with toll roads and
        bridges and the production of milk, wheat, and other things. All of
        these services would get much more revenue if they're allowed to be
        privatized and cut its abundance of supply to maximize return.
        Wait, why don't we privatize FBI, CIA, and outsource our Marines to
        the Indians and the Chinese as well? It'll be a lot cheaper and
        efficient to run, and we'll all profit at the same time! Yeah!
        \_ FBI, CIA, the military and such, provide public goods, which
           means they're non-rival and non-excludable. The market can't provide
           such services efficiently. What about public tranportation?  It
           doesn't necessarily have to be public. I heard the private urban
           rail systems in Japan are generating healthy profits.
                \- hello, a public good isnt necessarily non-excludable.
                   so a lighthouse isnt like medical knowledge
                   ["excluding" by IP law]. also the govt could contract
                   a private agency to provide a public good ... of course
                   you can get into a debate about who is doing the "providing"
                   in that case [vaccine stockpiling], but this does take you
                   into the area of efficient regulation, which is an issue
                   when the govt desires to regulate a (natural) monopoly. i
                   think it is better to say the govt has a role not in the
                   when the govt desires to regulate a (natural) monopoly.
                   [see e.g. (UCB Dept of Econ) Ken Train: Optimal Regulation]
                   i think it is better to say the govt has a role not in the
                   case of public good but in the broader case of 1. market
                   failures 2. when "public policy" considerations trump
                   "efficiency considerations" [like the post office
                   delivering to each and every address for the same
                   price]. [n.b. i am admittedly somewhat broadening this to
                   "when should the govt intervene or regulate, rather than
                   "provide". it's a somewhat slippery distinction when you
                   consder something like say the SEC]. and now we return you
                   to tom's ramblings ...
                   failures (mkt fail not just public goods, but also address
                   hold out problem, externalized costs, IO structural factors
                   like natural monopoly perhaps in cases of high barriers to
                   entry depending on your view of "contestability theory,
                   and asymmetric information) 2. when "public policy"
                   considerations trump "efficiency considerations" [like
                   the post office delivering to each and every address for
                   the same price or profitable bus routes to subsidize
                   unprofitable ones or not letting rich people easily
                   buy their way out of traffic congestion by making HoV lanes
                   "for pay" lanes]. [n.b. i am admittedly somewhat broadening
                   this to "when should the govt intervene or regulate, rather
                   than "provide". it's a somewhat slippery distinction when
                   you consder something like say the SEC].
        \_ "Maximizing profit" is not equivalent to "efficient," or even
           particularly close.  -tom
        \_ BART is not efficient. Why have a proprietary train system
           instead of something more common? Why have such an expensive
           system for such limited usefulness due to sprawl? Companies
           make more money by being more useful to their customers. Governments
           get their taxes either way. Military and police have different
           considerations so there's no point lumping that together.
        \_ I'm not exactly aware of BART's charter, and though I agree with the
           above poster about stupidity of their lack of standardization, a
           lot of private suppliers of exclusive goods (i.e. only 1 radio
           station can occupy a certain frequency in a given area, only one
           highway can be in a certain space) have a mandate/charter/whatnot
           to provide certain services (such as a train system stopping in a
           given locality, even if only 1 person gets on.)  So they won't
           necessarily be able to either operate at top efficiency or maximize
           their profit by their very nature.  -John
        \_ Amtrak. Nuff said.
           \_ what about it?  They have the government undermining their
              business by building roads at taxpayer expense, and powerful
              airline lobbies keeping them from providing better service
              (bullet trains) which would make them more attractive.  -tom
           \_ Amtrak should be allowed to go out of business instead of
              keeping it alive. Businesses can't manufacture demand for
              their products, but the government can continue to produce
              products no one wants.
              \_ Hello, is it not possible to also have products that people
                 want and need which are simply not profitable to provide but
                 which are convenient and contribute to better standard-of-
                 \_ No. If they want them then they will pay for them. We
                    aren't talking about a bridge which needs government
                    subsidies. We're talking about a mode of transport
                    that very few people use and which has been obsoleted.
                    \_ you mean, auto traffic?  Because there's nothing
                       more obsolete and subsidized than auto traffic.  -tom
                    \_ Excellent. We should allow all airlines to go out of
                       business as well, then.
                       \_ Sure, if they cannot fund themselves. However,
                          you would not see that happen if all subsidies
                          were eliminated. You'd just see higher airfares
                          and fewer carriers.
                          \_ This is where the public good becomes impacted.
                             It's in the interest of a vibrant economy to
                             provide a means by which more people can travel
                             to other parts of the country to spend their
                             money, just as it's in the interest of the
                             economy to keep the transportation costs of
                             goods low. When these costs go up, the overall
                             harm is greater than then amount saved by not
                             subsidizing. But I have no figures to back this
                             up, so I will admit to such now.
                             \_ If it makes sense economically then it
                                will happen on its own. You don't make,
                                for example, transportation costs go away
                                by subsidizing them. You just shift the
                                cost onto the taxpayers.
                    \_ I would agree but trains are not obsolete. They
                       can be pretty efficient, especially long haul
                       freight. We don't invest in them though. Investing
                       in a good rail system is in the government's
                       interest. The gov't basically subsidizes trucks
                       versus trains which is kind of silly. Trucks take
                       more drivers, more energy and pollution, impact
                       traffic, and damage roads which are expensive.
                       Perhaps passenger trains should go dodo though,
                       except in denser areas.
                       \_ Trains are obsolete as mechanisms for transporting
                          people across moderate-to-long distances. The
                          freight companies are doing just fine.
                          \_ Passenger trains do just fine in every
                             industrialized country which doesn't put
                             impossible barriers in the way.  Specifically,
                             in Europe, high-speed rail's market share is
                             at least 75% of traffic for trips 3 hours
                             or shorter by train, and is still 25% for trips
                             of 5 hours by train.  Not many would take the
                             train to NYC from SF, but a high-speed line
                             between SF and LA would be enormously
                             successful (again, if the state and the country
                             don't let politics and corporatism get in the
                             way of providing useful services to citizens).
                             \_ Passenger trains are heavily subsidized in
                                Europe, population density is much
                                higher, and distances are much shorter. What
                                is a train going to get me that a $150 plane
                                ticket (LA<->SF) won't except for a longer
                                commute time? I used to dream about a
                                bullet train between LA<-> Las Vegas, but
                                after taking the plane I don't see the
                                point to such a train, which is probably
                                why the plans never get off the ground.
                                \_ Airlines and roads are heavily
                                   subsidized, too.  Trains are much less
                                   stressful, more flexible about luggage,
                                   and more enjoyable than planes.  They
                                   also stop downtown instead of, you know,
                                   way the heck out at the airport.  If
                                   there were a three-hour train ride between
                                   SF and LA, at least half of the people who
                                   currently fly would take the train.  -tom
                                   \_ Not if it costs the same as flying. Last
                                      time I checked, it actually cost more.
                                      \_ EuroStar carries 71% of the
                                         London-Paris traffic and 64% of
                                         London-Brussels.  How is that
                                         different than SF-LA?  Do you have
                                         any facts at all?  -tom
2006/5/5-9 [Consumer/Audio, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:42946 Activity:nil
5/4     earphone recommendation:
        I am debating between Etymotic ER-6 and Shure E2/E2C.  Does anyone
        has experience with both?  recommendation?  I've lost my Sennheiser
        and I decided that I am going to try passive sound isolation.
        \_ I'm no audiophile, but I have both, and I prefer the ER6s.  They
           fit better and seem to block out more ambient noise.
           \_ I am not an audiophile neither and I mostly listen to NPR.
              I actually prefer not having 100% sound isolation for safety
              reasons.  Is E2/E2C uncomfortable?   --OP
              \_ I like the foam tips on the E2Cs better than the silicone
                 ones which take more effort to put in your ear.  The foam
                 tips don't last as long, though.  The ER6s rubber tips feel
                 more comfortable to me.
        \_ I have just the Shure E2c's and they're great.  I wear them all
           the time on the plane too.  You may want to check out Amazon,
           newegg, and epinion reviews of both.  I had to make a decision
           between the 6i and E2c as well, and I went with the latter,
           probably because of the number and feeling of the Amazon reviews.
        \_ I have only the ER-6i but I've had it for long enough to get a
           pretty good sense of it.  Sound quality is very nice but I'm sure
           audiophiles could find fault.  They are close to the best sounding
           headphones I've tried.  They do have 'consumables', filters and
           plugs.  I go through about 1 fliter in 4 months and a new set of
           flange plugs in 8-12mos.  Operational cost is probably ~$10/yr.
           Sound isolation is very frequency-neutral, and about 20-30db.  I
           can hear people talking fine with the music off or shouting if the
           music is on.  You can reduce the sound isolation by just not
           inserting them as far.  Lastly, if you bump the cord or there is a
           big wind they will channel that noise up the cord.  I can get rid
           of this problem if I wrap the cords over and behind my ears.
        \_ I've been trying to listen to movies and/or music while commuting
           on BART, and bart is DAMN LOUD, especially in the bay tube.  I need
           new/beatter headphones.  Are either of these up to such a
           challenge?  Has anyone actually tried?  -ERic
           \_ I use the ER-6i on BART every day and while I can still hear some
              BART, they work quite well for almost everything except classical
              music with a huge dynamic range (unless you're willing to blow
              out your ears for the loud parts). -Above poster.
        \_ it's interesting too that on, user opinions give the E2c's
           the edge over the 6i
2006/4/4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:42660 Activity:high
4/4     For the folks who keep suggesting that building well-designed cities
        won't work, consider that the rush to suburbanization was artificially
        created by real estate developers and car manufacturers who
        aggressively destroyed public transportation and bribed public
        officials to pass no-mixed-use zoning laws to force out downtown
        businesses. This is not conspiracy theory. See "Home from Nowhere"
        for more details.
        \_ Great.  Name one well-designed city.  I am genuinely curious
           as to what it is you want your cities to be like (don't get me
           wrong, I love living in cities, and I rent, but I feel from your
           posts that you may be seeing things a bit simplistically.)  -John
           \_ New York especially Manhatten, SF, Paris.  Seattle,
              although less so than the others. Boston and Chicago but I
              haven't spent more than a few weeks in those.
              \_ You do understand that there are more jobs in cities than
                 living space for people, right?  It takes a *lot* more space
                 per person for living than for working.  So it is necessary
                 for people to come from elsewhere to fill those jobs since
                 the city lacks living space for everyone.  We call the place
                 where all those workers live "the suburbs".  Now then, I do
                 understand than in Utopiaville, the jobs/living space balance
                 is in perfect harmony becaus our Beloved City Planners were
                 able to magically predict population growth, demographic
                 shifts, and drastic changes in the economy but outside of
                 LaLa Fairy Land most of the rest of us live in the burbs and
                 work in the city.  Not because we like commuting 2-3 hours a
                 day but because we can't afford to live in the city near our
                 jobs.  I think it's funny you'd choose SF as an ideal city
                 since the public transit sucks and by plane, train, or auto-
                 mobile it can easily take an hour or more to get anywhere.
                 Manhatten is a shithole.  Paris is hardly any better.  I
                 haven't been to the other cities you mention but I suspect
                 they have suburbs and an inner city just like everywhere
                 else.  I suspect you've been reading too much utopian fantasy
                 academic literature without taking a step back and looking at
                 how real people live and why.  People aren't little cogs or
                 resource units for you to push around from one square to the
                 \_ Singapore doesn't have any suburbs.  Everyone (>4 million)
                    lives and works in the city.
                    \_ Ok great let's add 'caning' to the books, too.  I
                       can't wait to join your Utopiaville.
                       \_ american cities were built when blacks still have
                          to sit at the back of the bus.  what's your point?
                       \_ nah, the suburbs of chicago is utopia.  very low
                          crime, living is easy but rather boring.
                    \_ or drives in on a motorbike from Malayasia --oj
                       \_ are you from catholic high or hcjc?
                    \_ Same with Hong Kong.
                 \_ I have lots of colleagues who lives in the city and works
                    in the suburbs here in Chicago.
                    \_ As I said, I've never been to Chicago.  Do you think
                       your friends are typical of the Chicago area?
                       \_ I don't know.  I guess they like the city.  I like
                          to live near my work.  I don't see why it should
                          be difficult to have the jobs move to the suburbs.
                          It's happening here in Chicago.  I rarely need to
                          go to the city.  I don't have a problem with your
                          conclusion, but the argument you are using - jobs
                          are in the city, no living space there - may not
                          be a valid assumption.  Chicago suburb cities like
                          Naperville or Schaumburg have lots of jobs, but
                          you still need a car.
                 \_ You have been brainwashed. It used to be that all workers
                    lived and worked in cities.
                    \_ This worked when you had servants willing to live in
                       tiny closets.  -John
                       \_ Do most people living in the cities have servants
                          \_ Do you think many of the gardeners, shop
                             assistants, cleaners, maids, dishwashers,
                             cab drivers and other fairly low paid but
                             important blue collar workers live in
                             Manhattan?  Hint: no.  Upshot:  Yes, you can
                             create much better public transportation to
                             the suburbs than what most American cities have,
                             but you'll never have some magical fairyland
                             self-contained urban ideal.  Nor do the Euro
                             cities so many urban planning advocates cite
                             as examples have it right.  -John
                 \_ You can afford to live in the city you work in. You cannot
                    afford a 4000 sq ft house in the city you work in. My
                    commute from one side of San Francisco to the other is
                    35 minutes on a bad day, using rapid transit.
                    \_ I can't afford a 4000 sqft house in the suburbs either
                       which means I could afford about 700-900 sqft in the
                       city if I was lucky.  I've lived in that before.  No
                       thanks.  I'd rather commute 60-90 minutes.  People
                       are not rats or sardines.  By the time most people hit
                       their mid 20s, have spouses, a few kids, etc, there's
                       no way 900 sqft is cutting it.  Also, we've already
                       done the school debate and your odds of getting your
                       kids into a decent school near your home are tiny in SF.
                       \_ Wow, you tihnk 900 is small?  I grew up with a
                          family of 4 and 1200 sq ft.  900 is plenty for
                          a family of 3.  For one or two people it is close
                          to perfect.
           \_ Read "Home from Nowhere."
        \_ Even with downtown businesses, people seem to be willing to make
           the tradeoff of driving relatively far to commute there from
           \_ Only because their living situation is massively subsidized.
              \_ If you actually had to pay the real costs of everything you
                 use in life you couldn't afford to be alive.  *Everything* is
                 getting subsidized in one way or another.  Let's end all those
                 evil and nasty subsidies for everything, eh?  My taxes will
                 drop to near zero and I'll happily pay directly for any of
                 the few services I still need.  You think public transit has
                 ever even come close to paying for itself?
2006/3/30-31 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:42543 Activity:low
3/30    Does anyone have technical details of why BART's computer system is
        fucked up?  They installed a 'software upgrade'  what software?
        They 'switched to a backup system' but that failed.  Who is their
        primary IT consultant?
        \_ I bet BART is running a crazy ass minicomputer or mainframe
           from the early 80s.
           \_ Over the weekend, I saw a BART ticket machine reboot into Win2k.
              It was running on a Celeron 300A, I think 256MB RAM.
                \_ I doubt BART runs their system from the ticket machines.
                   \_ I doubt the navy runs nuclear subs on windows. oh wait...
                        \_ Faith-based IT (subs)! No, I didn't mean to imply
                           that BART uses anything sane to run their back-end,
                           just that whatever the ticketing machines are
                           running is unlikely to reflect what they are running
        \_ General Railway Signal
           \_ Thanks, that's pretty interesting.
2006/3/22-23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:42376 Activity:moderate
3/21    This was fucking irritating:
        \_ Gosh, that's too bad. Here in Texas we don't have that problem.
           \_ What, no fake bomb threats in Texas?
              \_ No meaningful public transportation.
                 \_ The buses in the downtown Austin area didn't seem that
                    bad to me when I was there.
           \_ Yes, but in Texas you can be arrested for being drunk in a bar.
        \_ Things like this make me understand why Singapore allows caning.
        \_ i'll irritate YOUR fucking
2006/1/16-18 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:41387 Activity:low
1/16    What do you need to do to set up a table at BART and
        start trying to prostelyze the masses?  The Scientology
        people have moved their table inside of the Powell
        BART station that is shared by the Nordstrom mall and
        Powell SF MUNI stop with their stupid FREE STRESS TEST
        signs.  Can I set up my own table behind them and
        offer FREE ANAL RAPINGS?  Do I have to get a license
        \_ It is a public area. You can get away with a good amount, but
           setting up a table is something you'd need to get a license for
           (possible obstruction of a public walkway problems). You can
           carry a sign or something similar, but you need to watch your
           language (disturbing the peace, public nuisance). I think there
           are also provisions against for-profit advertising not approved
           for BART.
                    \_ LOWER GI MASSAGE ...
        \_ People might not make the connection as well as if you just stood
           there with a sign saying "Free Brain Washing" or "Free Cult
           \_ When I see those bastards I usually jump around and shout
              "It's a cult!!!"  "Don't talk to them, they're a fucking cult
              and they'll brainwash you!!" at the top of my lungs and wave
              my arms around.
              \_ That should convince any sensible person.
                 \_ Well, it entertains me, and irritates the Scientologists,
                    and that'e enough for me.  Sensible people already know
                    to avoid them and don't need to be convinced.
                    \- the hari krishna activities have led to a lot of
                       free speech in public but functionally dedicated
                       spaces lawsuits. at one point there were inconsistent
                       standars between airports, bus terminals ferry terminals
                       railway stations etc. to the best of my knowledge these
                       distinctions were some what arbitrary and as far as i
                       know a higher court hasnt imposed a uniform standards.
                       note also, it's not as simple as "is it a public space"
                       because there is adoctrine about quasi-public. for the
                       nTH time in the motd, see pruneyard [yes from the
                       south bay] v. robins.
                       \_ Please stop bastardizing the language, while there's
                          still time.
2005/11/11-13 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:40548 Activity:moderate
11/11   "Caltrain Ridership Up 29 Percent Since Baby Bullet Debut"
        \_ Public transit really works if it's done right.
           \_ I was in Holland and wanted to do some shopping in the small
              town where my grandmother lives ... I left at 3:30 and she
              warned me that the shops were already closed in town.  So I
              took the train to Utrecht, a major city, which took just 25
              minutes.  When I got to the train station, I noticed there was
              a mall connected to the train station.  I bought some candy &
              clothes, and then noticed a street market, where I bought
              marijuana, and then noticed a street market, where I bought
              stroopwafels (one of my favs) and other things.  I got back on
              the train and managed to get back even before the time I said
              I would (within 3 hours).  I've only driven a car once in
              Holland and I preferred the train.
              \_ one time, I was driving a car, and then I hit a train
                 and I was sad and then I saw a flower and picked it up
                 and when I stood up I saw that the engineer of the
                 train was beautiful woman and we fell in love and thats
                 why I know cars are better than trains.
        \_ also helps that the economy's picked up too.  The streets seem
           a bit busier too                                -caltrain rider
              \_ Holland is smaller than my backyard and you took 3 hours to
                 go shopping?  You think an hour of travel time just to buy
                 some candy at a train station mall is a good use of time?
                 I can walk to the store and back in less time than that in
                 my SUV ridden suburb.  If you had an hour of travel time and
                 it took 10 minutes to get a box of candy, where'd the other
                 2 hours ago?  Smoking that pot?
                 \_ Slightly less than twice the size of New Jersey, according
                    to the CIA world factbook.  New Jersey also has good
                    public transit, by the way.
           \_ Gas prices over $2 / gallon probably helps too.
2005/10/12-13 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:40052 Activity:kinda low
10/12   BART to SF running 24/7 just this weekend - danh
        \_ Finish the thought: "Because the bridge is closed."
           \_ isn't this all just some kind of homosexual code?
                \_ "the subway is open 24/7?"
2005/9/12-14 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:39644 Activity:nil
9/12    Use public transit, win an iPod and a Bose SoundDock:
        "Great Race for Clean Air -- 4 Modes in 4 Weeks" (
        \_ Dang, 4 modes is a lot.  I use 3 pretty regularly (bike,
           carpool, telecommute) but taking the bus from my house to work
           would pretty much blow, and it's too long for walking.-jrleek
           \_ I work in SF and live in Oakland; I use three modes every day
              (walking, carpooling, public transport), and I use a fourth
              (telecommuting) on weekends). Now where did I leave my digital
              camera? --erikred
              \_ When I lived in Albany for a week I used BART and bus,
                 but it doesn't fit in the timeframe. :( Now I live too
                 close to bother with public transit. -jrleek
                 \_ You should send in a copy of your mortgage payment/
                    rent payment with an explanation of how your move saved
                    the air much more than three people carpooling in an SUV.
                    \_ Good point.  -- OP
           \_ I live in Fremont and work in Foster City.  I only use three
              (carpool -> bus; telecommute).  My wife works in SF and she uses
              four (carpool -> BART -> company shuttle; telecommute), but I
              don't think she'd want her pictures taken.  -- OP
2005/9/6-7 [Health/Sleeping, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:39537 Activity:nil
        Russian train goes over a man sleeping on the track. Apparently
        the man didn't wake up, and that was what saved his life.
2005/8/26-27 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:39293 Activity:moderate
8/26    What happened at San Leandro BART?
        \_ 08-26) 09:15 PDT San Leandro (SF Chronicle) -- BART is experiencing major
           delays this morning and the San Leandro station has been shut down after
           a man was struck and killed by a train there.  Today is the 26th... -ax
           \_ A badly formated motd post caused some BART trains to run late
              which resulted in stations that were more crowded than usual
              with a few dozen people being pushed at the tracks by the
              growing pressure of body mass.
        \_ 08-26) 09:15 PDT San Leandro (SF Chronicle) -- BART is
           experiencing major delays this morning and the San Leandro station
           has been shut down after a man was struck and killed by a train
           there.  Today is the 26th... -ax
           \_ Suicide or homicide?
              \_ Two witnesses have said suicide.
                 \_ He deserves to die man!  Doing this in rush hour and
                    tying up thousands of other people.  He should have jumped
                    tying up thousands of other people.  He could have jumped
                    the GG Bridge with much less impact instead.
                    \_ Deserves to die because he died?  That's like saying
                       a lollipop ought to be sweet because it's, uhm, sweet.
                       Or that badgers deserve a fearsome reputation because
                       they are fearsome!!!1!
                       \_ No, he deserves to die because he needlessly tied up
                          thousands of people's lives by choice.
                          \_ Right -- ie, 'he deserves to die because he
                             needlessly tied up dying'  He wouldn't
                             have held up traffic if he hadn't died.
                             \_ He doesnt deserve to die, but we should
                                at least throw these type of people in jail.
                    \_ or the 11:30pm train
              \_ If you ever decide to commit suicide, please do not do it
                 this way. It is not painless way to die,not just because it
                 ties up the commute.
2005/8/26 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:39290 Activity:nil
8/25    What happened at San Leandro BART?
        08-26) 09:15 PDT San Leandro (SF Chronicle) -- BART is experiencing major
        delays this morning and the San Leandro station has been shut down after
        a man was struck and killed by a train there.  Today is the 26th... -ax
2005/7/26 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38827 Activity:kinda low
7/26    Spare the Air Day.
        \_ So claimed the crazy Microsoft bicycle guy standing on the caltrain
           platform.  Fuck you crazy MS bicycle guy, maybe if you stopped
           yelling about how people bungee their bikes you'd have some
           credibility.  -- bought a ticket, proud to support caltrain
           \_ Caltrain rules, BART drools.
2005/7/25-27 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38812 Activity:nil
7/25    Commute with public transit for free tomorrow (7/26) morning (4-9am)!
        \_ not entirely free, as it is a one-way free ride, and you still
           have to pay to get back!
           \_ I said morning.
2005/7/7 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38455 Activity:high
7/7     You think BA public transit is bad?  -John
        \_ I can't tell exactly which tube lines were bombed and where.  I have
           several friends in London and I'm wondering if they were affected.
           \_ Goddammit.  None of the American media seem to care WHERE the
              bombs were, just that they happened.  --lye
2005/7/5-7 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38416 Activity:nil
7/5     BART Strike?
        Union sucks: ...
        Managment sucks:
        They both suck: .
        Huh?: .
        Heard of it, but don't care enough to work out the he said/she
        said: .
        RIDE BIKE!: .
        LA Traffic beats them all: .
        Less time for morning masturbation: .
        \_ Anyone has any insider news on what the final agreement is like?
           \_ 7% raise over 4 years + $300 single lump payment. Monthly
              health contrib goes from $25 -> $75 + 3% annual increase
              starting next year. Some job descriptions will be rewriten.
              Front cab masturbation privileges after five years service.
              \_ Sounds like managment got the better end.
2005/6/22-23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38245 Activity:kinda low
6/22    What is 'THE STANDARD' way to transfer between BART and Caltrain in
        downtown SF?  I've tried walking and it takes 21 minutes and is not so
        pedestrian friendly.  I don't know how much I should trust MUNI having
        almost no experience with it...
        \_ The problem with the Metro is that the Caltrain bound trains don't
           come very often, so it will likely take you just as long to get
           there via the Metro as it would walking.  It will be more
           pedestrian friendly than trying to walk, though.  I will note that
           the Muni Metro is probably the only form of mass transit in the
           Bay Area that makes BART seem great.
           \_ And yet Muni carries more passengers per day than all the other
              transit systems in the Bay Area put together.
              \_ Wow.  Where can I see the numbers for various systems?
              \_ Is "Metro" the light-rail thingie in SF? The Muni buses seemed
                 fine when I used them a long time ago. The drivers seemed to
                 drive pretty fast.
        \_ i think there's a regular bus between montgomery BART and
           townshend caltrain station
        \_ Which BART and Caltrain stations are your origin and destination?
           Would it make more sense to transfer at the Milbrae Intermodal?
        \_ Wait for the new train/bus superstation to get built.
           \_ 5 years >>> 21 minutes.
        \_ Take the N Judah. It takes 12 minutes and runs every 6 or 7. It
           is also on the nextbus network, so you can either go look at the
           sign and see when the next one will be running or check the
           schedule on your cell phone.
           schedule on your cell phone. If it looks like the wait is too
           long, you can always catch the 15 or 30 or 45. -ausman
2005/6/17-18 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38169 Activity:moderate
6/17    In response to this:
                      "Speaking as someone who gets around without a car,
                       you're wrong.  The combined Bay Area transit miasma
                       is one of the most expensive and least effective
                       systems in the country, and it shows no signs of
                       abating as the biggest, most expensive, and least
                       effective part of it (BART) keeps sucking up
                       all the mind share and funding.  Woo hoo, a billion
                       dollars for an extension to Warm Springs, that'll
                       help!  -tom"
        See "BART named #1 Transit System in U.S."
        \_ The APTA awards are self-nominated and self-congratulatory; they
           mean nothing.  -tom
           \_ Reference please?
                 And your above URL, which lauds BART's airport extension
                 that came in 2 years late, more than a billion dollars
                 over budget, and has less than half the ridership BART
                 was projecting.  -tom
                 \_ $1 billion over budget?  WHat was the budget?
                    Although, since it's basically the only part of BART I
                    ride regularly, I like it anyway.
                    \_ The budget was originally $1.2 billion.  Actually,
                       if I recall correctly the budget was $700 million for
                       a multi-modal station west of 101, where you'd get
                       the monorail, but BART insisted on going directly
                       to the airport, which had an estimated cost of $500
                       million more, and made the trip slower.  And it
                       wound up costing over $2 billion.  -tom
                 \_ Hmm, people think BART sucks because they don't ride it,
                    and people don't ride BART because they think it sucks.
                    \_ People ride BART when it's an easy hop from it to their
                       destination, and when their destination has high parking
                       or toll costs.  Other than that, its integration with
                       the rest of public transport, and the imbalance in funds
                       making for lower quality in the rest of public transport
                       makes BART suck.
                 \_ Hmm, people think BART sucks because people don't ride it,
                    and people don't ride BAR because they think BART sucks.
                    and people don't ride BART because they think it sucks.
                       \_ I see many bus lines stopping at every BART station.
                          SF MUNI's light rail also stops at BART stations.
                          And there are free BART shuttles to employers.  (I
                          used to take the one going from Hayward to Foster
                          City.)  How is it not integrated with the rest of
                          public transport?  Suggestions for improvement?
                          \_ Take a trip to Singapore and experience the
                             MRT system. They use a single RFID card to
                             deduct money each time you enter and leave
                             a train station or bus anywhere in Singapore.
                             That doesn't work with BART,MUNI, AC Transit
                             Cal Train, etc.
                             \- SINGAPORE IS THE STANDARD:
                                Of course there is also this aspect of SIN:
                          \_ There is no "transit pass"; if you want to take
                             AC Transit to BART to MUNI you need to pay three
                             different times.  BART, when partnering with
                             other transit agencies, insists on BART service
                             being offered at something like 90% of full price,
                             which makes monthly passes pointless.   -tom
                        \_ That is not the way politics works. BART is nice
                           so more middle class people ride transit, so more
                           money is allocated to transit overall. The money
                           would go to freeways instead.
                           \_ Obviously, this hasn't worked, as nearly
                              all the money which goes to "transit" goes
                              straight down BART's money pit.  Been to
                              Warm Springs lately?  -tom
           \_ NYC's MTA won the same award in 2001.
              \_ I was there in 2000 and I didn't like MTA at all.
                 Trains are slow, mainly because they stop every two
                 blocks all the way from Coney Island until
                 Manhattan. Seats are not very comfortable. Stations
                 are dirty and ugly, water leaking from the ceilings
                 in some underground stations. I thought BART was so much
                 better than that.
                 \_ Exactly.  The award means nothing.
                 \_ BART was designed by people who think public transit
                    should be like Disneyland.  -tom
                    \_ OOC, if you were designing public transit, how would you
                       do it?  --dbushong
                       \_ UBAHN! The TUBE!  There are successful models the
                          whole world over.  We'd rather subsidize the auto
                          industry than have good public transit.
                          \_ The Tube?  The Londoners I know bitch about the
                             Underground every goddamn day.  It's really just
                             grass-is-greener syndrome, they have no idea
                             how good they have it.
                       \_ I would be a lot more careful about things like
                          survey results and customer satisfaction.  Cushy
                          chairs may increase customer satisfaction, but if
                          they don't increase ridership, the money spent on
                          cushy chairs should be spent somewhere else.
                          I would build in incentives to use the system
                          a lot (monthly passes at significant discounts).
                          I would build it so transit users are prioritized
                          over auto drivers (instead of transit users
                          subsidizing thousands of free parking spaces as
                          they do on BART).  I would notice that the most
                          successful stations are the ones that are located
                          in neighberhoods, not the ones that are located
                          in the middle of acres of parking lots.  I would
                          use standard rail (unlike BART) to allow for
                          flexibility in use of the right-of-way, and lower
                          build and replacement costs.  For long-haul runs,
                          I would use trains which are fast.  I would
                          make runs like Dublin to Bay Fair short shuttles,
                          rather than redesign the entire schedule (poorly)
                          just because two stations were added.
                          For example.  -tom
              \_ I was there in 1999 and thought it worked pretty well, but I
                 was only in Manhattan/Staten Island.  I rode VTA (mostly bus)
                 and CalTrain in the south bay in 1997-2000 and it was
                \_ that's nice.  tom is still right.
2005/6/15-17 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38132 Activity:high
6/14    If money is not a concern, where would you settle down for retirement?
        And why? I'll start:
        \_ Florida: .
           \_ Because it's old people friendly. And people speak English. And
              there are lots of places built for ACTIVE and healthy old people.
              Weather is nice. And you won't get lonely because there are
              lots of other old people just like you.
           \_ *shudder* everything I know about Florida says that it is hell
              on earth.  There's a *little* bit of hyperbole there.  A little.
              \_ Not sure about all parts of FL, but Orlando seems to be okay.
                 \_ No, all of Florida sucks. Weather is bad. People are
                    conservative. If I had to choose, the keys or Gulf
                    Coast are the best. Orlando is a swamp, man!
                    \_ Isn't the keys in the state of FL?
                       \_ if he had to choose somewhere in FL
        \_ Bay Area: ...
           \_ Uh, how about Bay Area minus Berkeley?
           \_ Great weather, good transit system, reasonable culture,
              amazing restaurants, can walk everywhere I want to go,
              tolerant social climate, diverse mix of people, safe,
              beautiful, top notch research hospitals.
              \_ the transit system sucks, but other than that the Bay Area
                 is hard to beat.  -tom
                 \_ It certainly has one of the best mass transit systems in
                    the nation. There are far better ones in Europe, granted,
                    but for the US, it is above average. You cannot even get
                    around without a car in most of the US.
                    \_ Speaking as someone who gets around without a car,
                       you're wrong.  The combined Bay Area transit miasma
                       is one of the most expensive and least effective
                       systems in the country, and it shows no signs of
                       abating as the biggest, most expensive, and least
                       effective part of it (BART) keeps sucking up
                       all the mind share and funding.  Woo hoo, a billion
                       dollars for an extension to Warm Springs, that'll
                       help!  -tom
                       \_ Uh, compared to Los Angeles, BA transportation is
                          like, totally and utterly superior. Have you ever
                          been to Los Angeles?
                          \_ Yes, Los Angeles transit sucks.  There is a world
                             outside California, you know.  NYC, Chicago,
                             Boston, DC, and Atlanta spring to mind as US
                             cities with better transit than SF.  -tom
                       \_ Hi Tom, just curious, where do you live?
                          \_ near Piedmont Ave in Oakland.
                       \_ sheesh, buy a car already
                          \_ yeah, there's a great solution to a shitty
                             transit system.  -tom
                       \_ I don't have a car, I get around just fine without
                          one and I think BART is great. Have you ever tried
                          to get around LA or Las Vegas or Phoenix without a
                          car? The Bay Area is much better. In fact, outside
                          of NYC, no place that I have ever visited in the US
                          has a better mass transit system. BART won an award
                          as the best transit system in the country, so your
                          opinion is obviously in the minority.
                          car? In the Bay Area it is much easier. In fact,
                          outside of NYC, no place that I have ever visited
                          has a better mass transit system. And BART won an
                          award as the best transit system in the country, so
                          your opinion is obviously in the minority.
                          \_ so why is BART great, eh?  Is it because it's
                             expensive, loud, and slow?  Is it because they
                             offer no monthly passes, and they don't have
                             any agreement to share tickets with any of the
                             other transit agencies?  Is it because the
                             elevators never work?  -tom
                             \_ During rush hour, the BART goes from Glen
                                Park BART to downtown every two or three
                                minutes. And the ride is 12 minutes, much
                                faster than even taking my motorcycle. It
                                is also faster than taking a car to Berkeley.
                                And my Fas Pass works on both Muni and BART
                                And my Fast Pass works on both Muni and BART
                                in The City. It is too bad that AC Transit
                                and BART don't have such an agreement.
                                \- i think BART is ok if by coincidence
                                   your route coincides with the end points.
                                   but to have to bus/fight to park at one
                                   end and then take another bus at the other
                                   end is nuts. If you live off T'graph
                                   and are trying to get to the Ho Theater
                                   in the 'Loin, BART works. If you live
                                   near the Moron Temple in OAK and want to
                                   visit your associate in the Richmond (SF)
                                   BART is insane.
                                   \_ BART doesn't pretend to go everywhere.
                                      Isn't a Oakland -> Richmond trip the
                                      job of AC Transit?
                       \_ BART named #1 Transit System in U.S. by APTA
        \_ Australia: .
        \_ New Zealand: .
                        \_ The fact that there are so few people in NZ is
                           very attractive to me, but if I had to restrict
                           myself to the US, I'd go w/ the Bay Area or
                           \_ I hope you're not Oriental.  I've been told that
                              NZ is terribly biased against them.  My
                              information might be skewed since a (former)
                              relative is currently married to a NZ nationalist
        \_ Surprised no one chose the Central Coast. It would be my
           choice and is the choice of many super-wealthy (like Oprah).
           Large tracts of land, beaches, nice weather, close to LA when
           you have to be but far enough away to make you forget about it.
           There's a reason the area from Santa Barbara to Monterey is
           laden with multi-million dollar homes.
           \_ Why didn't you choose it?
              \_ "It would be my choice"
                 \_ The go like this: California Central Coast: .
        \_ Oh, it would have to be somewhere that is relatively inexpensive,
           has favorable weather, safe, and (recently added) politically
           stable.  Morocco: Bay Area-like weather, inexpensive, politically
           stable (until recent terrorist attacks).  Bali: ditto, plus
           unpleasant rainy season.  Perhaps Phuket or somewhere else Thai-ish,
           except the rainy season is also unpleasant.  Shanghai, but the air
           quality is awful.  Buenos Aires: considered it quite seriously a
           few years ago, still a contender if I decide to cash it in.  Since
           I am Chinese, that opens up some options and removes others.
           \_ When you're all old and wrinkled up, it's hard to tell what
              your ethnicity is, assuming you have a perfect English accent.
              \_ Alas, I expect to retire years (decades) before I become old
                 and wrinkled up.  And while it may not be obvious from
                 physical inspection, I assume my racial information would
                 still be in a local government data base somewhere.  This
                 would be suboptimal in places where discrimination is
                 sponsored by the government.
           \_ Oh, and I forgot the requirement for world-class medical care.
              That removes all my options except Shanghai (the American-run
              clinics are very good, if expensive) and possibly Buenos Aires.
              Perhaps Vancouver, so long as I can winter somewhere favorable.
              In fact, picking 2 or 3 places that, in aggregate, provide a
              good year-round retirement experience might be much easier, and
              certainly much less expensive, than picking 1 overall winner.
           \_ Northern and central Thailand are gorgeous, with good
              infrastructure, a stable economy, nice people and you can live
              like a king.  The highlands aren't as hot as Bangkok.  -John
        \_ I'd definitely go to Hawaii. Island girls are exotic and the
           legal age is only 14. What more could you ask for?
                \_ Try 16, they changed the law.  Pervert.
        \_ The Playboy Mansion.  I might die of heart attack but I'd die very
           \_ Speaking as someone who has met Hef and some of his
              bunnies... yuck.
              \_ Really?  Care to elaborate?  Thx.
2005/5/4-6 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:37512 Activity:kinda low
5/4     I ride BART daily and listen to music.  I currently have Sennheiser
        MX500 earbuds but am considering the Etymotic ER-6.  I like that my
        MX500 are fairly comfortable (for earbuds) and have good 'articulation'
        or whatever you call it.  What's people's opinion on the ER-6, and does
        its noise-canceling help a lot or a little on BART?
        \_ 5-6 ppl I work with (music related company) really like the ER-6.
           At least two also got an amp that goes with it. I think the amp
           is USB powered and basically acts as a sound card detached from the
        \_ Again, as before deletion:  Shure earbuds are kind of nice,
           albeit awkward the first few times.  -John
        \_ noise cancelling is only going to save a few dB and only in
           certain lower frequencies.  the isolation of the in-ear plugs
           helps too.  but BART is horribly noisy across a wide frequency
           range.  the electronic cancellation will reduce the rumbles
           a bit and the plug will cut some of the howl, so you lower the
           noise floor a bit.  but it won't go away nor stun you with a
           huge drop unless your current ones are not isolating at all
           and you have never used ear plugs or ear muffs of any kind.
           \_ ER-6 are passive noise canceling by virtue of being in-ear and
              as such are more or less earplugs.
        \_ I actually just switched from MX400(MX500 w/o volume control) to
           ER-6i, primarily for the BART ride in fact.  I don't go cross-bay,
           but I can barely hear any of the train noise.  Even less so when I
           turn the music on.  When it's in right, it's clearer than MX400.
           But when it's not completely sealed, sounds kinda muddy.  ER-6i
           is supposed to be better than ER-6 for portable devices if you're
           not planning on using amps.  It only comes in white, though, which
           I hate.  Can the above poster tell me which amp is usb powered?
        \_ I have a Senheisser.  My biggest complain is too many wires.
           \_ HeadRoom Total BitHead
        \_ I have a Sennheiser PX300.  I actually prefer active noise
           reduction, as I would be more aware of my environment (e.g.
           streets + scooters that doesn't follow traffic rules) than
           a passive NR headphone.  My biggest complain for PX300 is too
           many wires(it has a seperate switch/battery compartment) and
           my hands/body movement tend to get tangled with it.
           if you walk alot, take number of wires into consideration.
2005/3/11 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:36643 Activity:moderate
3/11    Let me now sing praise to the woman on the BART wearing a denim
        bikini top on her way to work. Praise spring time! I'm headed to
        El Rio tonight to celebrate the weather. Who's with me? -- ulysses
        \_ Score!  We still have m4d snow, but I give it 2 months before the
           high-rise stringy thongs start showing up again!  -John
        \_ Those of us who don't live in California anymore are not as
           enthusiastic about this month's weather.  I'll get excited about
           spring in another month and a half when it comes.
        \_ Those of us who don't have 40" chest muscles are not as enthusiastic
           about this month's weather.  I'll get excited when it gets cold
           again and I can cover up my skinny body with designer jackets.
        \_ Those of us who don't have 42" chest and 20" bicepts are not
           as enthusiastic about this month's weather.  I'll get excited when
           it gets cold again and I can cover up my skinny body with designer
           jackets.  (It's not a joke.)
           \_ for every girl you can find who likes '42" chest muscles' I'll
              show you 10 who'd prefer a skinny guy
              \_ Has anybody here dated extremely thin women?  Like size 0
                 whose limbs you could encircle with your fingers?  Did you
                 ever worry you might "break" them in bed?
                 \_ Yes.  Yes.  No. -dans
              \_ That's very nice of you to say.  I hope it's true.
               \_ it is
               \_ It's true. My spouse would basically only date scrawny guys
                  up until a year before she met me and she's a total babe.
                  Her sister, on the other hand, prefers 'em bald and meaty. Go
                  \_ obviously written by a guy who has'n been married too long
                \_ is this backed up by a reputable scientific study, or
                   is it backed up by The Bible? I'll take either one.
        \- Do they have food at El Rio? Are you familar with El Stew?
           \_ Uh, no. What's that?
        \_ What's the significance of bikini in the Bay Area? -don't live there
           \_ BART is the subway train here in the Bay Aray.
           \_ The weather here has been really nice for that last week.
        \_ A 42" chest is not that big.  20" arms are probably one in a
           million.  -ax
2004/12/22-23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:35398 Activity:insanely high
12/22   I'm considering a job in the south bay that would mean ~2:15 commute by
        BART + Caltrain with minimal layovers.  I'm thinking I can get a new
        laptop and unlimited cellular-internet and make the commute time a
        reasonable facsimilie of how I spend many evenings.  The big downside
        is I'll have *much* less time to spend with my (live-in) girlfriend and
        my non-computer-based hobbies.  Am I completely insane for considering
        this arrangement?
        \_ I did this for almost a year.  The most important thing is to work
           from home one day a week; I can't describe how much this helps.
           (And you need to negotiate for it before you accept the job.  It'll
           be way harder otherwise.)  It's also nice if there are people you
           can carpool with occasionally instead of taking BART.  Anyway, it's
           tolerable for at least six months, but don't plan to do it long-
        \_ I did this for almost a year.  It really, really helps if you can
           work from home one day a week.  (And you need to negotiate for it
           before you accept the job -- it'll be way harder otherwise.)  It's
           also nice if there are people you can carpool with occasionally
           instead of taking BART.  Anyway, it's tolerable for at least six
           months, but don't plan to do it long-term.
        \_ Where are you commutting from and where are you commutting to?
           If you tell us someone may be able to offer a quicker route
           by car.
           \_ It should be about 1:30 by car but I don't like driving and can't
              use a laptop while driving.
        \_ you could become crazy aerobic workout on train guy!
           \_ The key is to get a co-worker to take the same commute and become
              the crazy kung fu battle workout on train guys.
        \_ Why not just move?
           \_ GF just bought a house right next to BART (good commute for her)
        \_ I commute ~1 hr each way on daily basis.  I really hate it when I
           get the urge and have to use the bathroom during my commute.
        \_ Bragging on soda the fact that you have a (live-in) gf?
           \_ That's bragging?
                \_ This is soda.
                   \_ he lives at his gf's house, no less. what a man.
                      \_ Pff. I pay rent.
                         \_ What a man! I bet she can't wait until you
                            stop being a sponge.
                            \_ What's that?  Oh, that must be the sound of
                               somebody talking out of their own ass.
                               \_ I'm not the pathetic loser with the
                                  2 hour commute paying rent to live in
                                  his gf's house.
                         \_ It would be more impressive if she let you
                            live there for free.
                         \_ Oh.
        \_ I did this once for six months to go work for Taos. I gave it
           up and took a 15% pay cut to get a reasonable commute and my
           life back. I guess it depends on what you think your time is
           worth, but for me, spending 8 hrs (work) + 5 hrs (commute)
           really was not worth it. I got up at 7AM, didn't get to work
           until 9:30, left at 5:30 and got home at 8PM. I was too
           tired and hungry to do anything but order out and then
           crash. When I switched to a job at HotWired, my life
           improved immeasurably. Taos even offered me a 30% raise
           if I would stick around, but I decided against it. -ausman
           \_ Wait a minute, you gave up a 45% raise so you wouldn't have
              to waste time commutting? Couldn't you have just rented a
              nicer place closer to Taos for a 45% raise? Did momma raise a
              fool here?
           \_ Right on! I used to commute and life is so much better now
              that I do not. I recommend the OP find a job closer to home.
              \_ This was before wireless internet though, so that changes
                 the equation quite a bit. I spent most of my free time
                 surfing the net and it sounds like this guy does, too. -ausman
        \_ extra hour of free time on daily basis is extremely valuable to me.
           it will hit you after a while.  so, don't do it.
        \_ Don't be a fool. The commute will ruin your relationship. Even
           with the laptop, you're burning time better spent doing something
           you really like.
                \_ the point is that you can do that on the train commute.
2004/11/19 [Recreation/Food, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:34975 Activity:very high
11/19   So, in roughly five years time, when food and travel costs are
        >2x current costs with little increase in salaries due to fuel
        cost increases, how will the motd readers continue to live in the
        Bay Area and pay mortgages? Google "peak oil" if you don't know what
        I'm talking about.
        \_ ride bike and tuna over rice
        \_ some won't.  market forces will prevail.
        \_ perhaps a better question would be how will all  folks who've moved
           to the suburbs get by, where they don't even have a shred of a
           public transit system, and the people there live even further away
           from work than those in the bay area.  I can ride-bike+BART to work.
           Someone with a 'cheap house' in say Tracy doesn't ahve that option.
           \_ Never heard of the train, huh?  (ACE train runs from Tracy into
              the bay area.)
        \_ If that happens life will change.  People will work closer to home
           and will find ways to make that happen.  If food prices double
           people will stop eating out so damn much and learn how to cook
           again.  People adapt.  Life goes on.
2004/9/15 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:33549 Activity:high
9/15    To whomever wanted to beat up on sca ppl.  Thursday evenings,
        Rockridge bart.  Both rapier and medieval combat.  You don't have to
        bring anything but your soon-to-be-bruised body.  Any more details
        mail me. -pst
        \_ What the hell are sca ppl and why would anybody want to beat
           them up other than beating up people can be a good thing?
        \_ Can I bring my .50 cal desert eagle?  someone on motd said it was
           teh suk.
           \_ Then go subscribe to dharry@csua and lets all go to jackson arms.
           \_ that's Aquila Deserae (help, mr latin?) 1/2
        \_ Uh, sir!  You acknowledge that you are talking to a chaotic-neutral
           8th level half-elf ranger-illusionist, and you treat me with that

           I did not sew these leather breeches myself so that I can't get a
           goblet of non-alcoholic mead when I ask for it!

           Oh mighty Odin, where is thy cleansing thunder bolt?
2004/7/12-13 [Science/Space, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:32232 Activity:very high
7/12    Question about the BART ticket encoding system. Do they attach a
        unique id to each card, and have all the stations connect to a
        central computer that keeps track of the states (which is more secure
        but less reliable because in the 70s the network communication was
        not as reliable as now), or do they encode the actual amount of
        money onto each card (which is more fault tolerant to network
        noise, etc)? ok thx.
        \_ I can't speak for BART but Singapore's MRT system uses RFID
           cards for both bus and train services. AFIK, it would be
           really expensive to have RFID cards self modifying (especially
           when they have no batteries). It would be easier to use a
           centralized server and that's probably what they do.
           \_ Are you sure it's RFID and not some sort of induction mechanism?
              I think that's what RATP (Paris metro) use.  About contactless
              smart cards:   -John
        \_ The latter. I have fantasized about getting a card reader
           and writer and making my own BART cards. It uses some
           simple encoding, if I remember correctly. I can dig up
           my research no this, if you like.
           \_ You know this is how one of the hosts of Off the Hook got
              a felony conviction, right?  It's not worth it.  If they catch
              you, expect the whole paranoid Mitnick style treatment by the
              \_ He got a felony conviction for making a fake BART card?
                 I find this hard to believe. URL please.
                 \_ it was MTA in new york, and not BART.  I don't have a
                    url, and he doesn't discuss the details of his case
                    on the radio, but he's definitely on probation from
                     felony charges, and whatever he did was
                    definitely involving MTA cards in some way.
              \_ "Your honor, he was 'hacking' BART, a vital public resource.
                  If his plan had been allowed to spread, it would have had
                  serious impacts upon BART's ability to evacuate people in
                  the event of a disaster.  We ask that the court consider
                  the defendant to be an enemy combatant."
                  \_ Dude, you don't have to be declared an enemy combatant
                     for the government to make your life into a living hell.
                     I think the PP is pointing out that a felony crime
                     coupled with any electronic fu is likely to make a prime
                     target for investigation by the Dept of Homeland Sec.
                     Welcome to the New America.
                     \_ it's not the New America, and has nothing to do
                        with DHS.  The paranoid idiocy about computer
                        related crime goes back to at least when I was
                        in highschool in the early 90s.  My highschool physics
                        teacher atually testified that some idiot who was caught
                        with bomb related stuff on his bbs and some stolen shit
                        in his home (which the cops raided swat style) was
                        "neither evil nor a genius."  They really wanted
                        to throw the book at him becuase prosecuters get all
                        excited about the "evil genius" thing for some reason.
                        also, google "ed cummings"  to learn just how far law
                        enforcement will go to brutalize a small time hacker,
                        even before 9/11.
                        \_ And soon I will have understanding of videocassette
                           recorders and car telephones. And when I have
                           understanding of them, I shall have understanding
                           of computers. And when I have understanding of
                           computers, I shall be the Supreme Being!
           \_ could you please? My point is to not hack the system, but to
              research how engineering decisions are made, why, in what time
              frame, etc. I'm conducting a technology literary survey,
              thanks,                                           -op
                \_ Does it have to be bart or can it be any other eng.
                   system? Applied Crypto and Practical Crypto have
                   several examples of eng. design decisions. Also
                   look for books about Gemini and Apollo (the story
                   of why LOR was chosen is good example of eng. in
                   the real world)
                   \_ What's LOR?
                        \_ Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. There were three
                           different proposals to get to the moon:
                           1. Direct
                           2. Earth Orbit Rendezvous (EOR) - Launch
                              the bits into space separately, link
                              up in Earth orbit, go to the moon, land
                              and come back
                           3. Lunar Orbit Rendezvous (LOR) - Launch
                              this bits into space separately, link
                              up, go to the moon, land only part of
                              the craft on the moon, link back up
                              in orbit around the moon and come back.
                           LOR was the most/least complex depending
                           on your point of view. Most complex because
                           it has so many places where it could go
                           wrong. Least complex because it required
                           smaller rockets and smaller simpler lander.
                           Gemini is also of interest, because that
                           was the platform that proved that rendevous
                           and other systems could work.
                           For more info see:
        \_ I've thought about this before.  I decided it's very unlikely that
           they have unique tickets that are tracked by a central server.  If
           they did that, the server would have to be able to store hundreds
           of millions of unique tickets (dating back 30 years) and there would
           have to be a way to instantly process transactions from about 1,000
           terminals spread over a 50-mile range.  Nowadays it's more-or-less
           doable, but in the 1970's it would have been a huge PITA.
           \_ ah yes, but they could have easily done it with well known
              techniques like database duplication, local caching, database
              merging, backup modems, etc.
              \_ BART can't even get the machines working well enough to
                 print the fucking ticket values.  -tom
              \_ Each ticket record would probably need to store 6-8 bytes in
                 a unique-tickets situation.  Then you need to be able to store
                 several hundred records at every station in the 1970's.  How
                 did a meg of disk cost in 1975?  Like I said, it would have
                 been possible, but huge pain for marginal benefit.
        \_ The amount of money is encoded in each card. It used to be printed
           in human readble form on the card every time it was used as well
           (not sure if this is still the case). The start point of your
           journey is also encoded so that when you exit it knows how much
           to deduct.
           \_ It still is printed, BART is just really bad about changing the
              toner ribbons in the turnstiles.
              \_ 1) This is true, they do need to replace the toner cartridges
                 more frequently, and 2) your ticket is supposed to have the
                 amount remaining printed on it _when you exit BART_. Many ppl
                 think the amount is written when you buy your ticket or enter
                 BART, but that's not the case.
                 \_ It IS printed (fairly reliably) when you buy your ticket.
                    It gets printed sideways next to the mag-strip.
        \_ I remember my dad (who worked at BART as a techie since 1972)
           telling me of a fraudulent cards they came across in the 80s.
           they were made out of index card stock w/ VHS tape glued down
           for the magnetic strip.  but if you're interested in tech politics
           ignore the ticketing system and try to find out about hte train control
           system and the wayside communications.  what a mess!
2004/7/7 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:31202 Activity:moderate
7/7     How come some BART trains have announcers to the destinations and
        some are silent?
        \_ the Train operator on the silent train is mute.
        \_ I prefer they remain silent.  Except the guy with the southern
           accent who told jokes.  The rest are just annoying.
2004/7/6-7 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:31178 Activity:high
7/6     Does any app exist that maintains a window onscreen with, say, the next
        three train departure times for, say, BART? -- ulysses
        \_ Probably an RSS feed somewhere?
        \_ nextbus for muni, don't think it exists for BART
           \_ Yeah. I was specifically thinking of NextBus and I was wondering
              whether there was something for BART. Bummer. -- ulysses
2004/2/27-28 [Reference/BayArea, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:12435 Activity:nil
2/27    What is the BART stop that is right under Union Square?
        It's one of those cluster of 4 San Francisco BART stops.
        \_ I haven't taken BART in years, but I think it is Powell.
        \_ The only thing beneath Union Square is a parking garage. Powell
           St station, however, is two blocks downhill.
        \_ Powell is indeed the one. Drops you off right at SF Shopping Center
           or BofA / Gap, depending on where you exit up the stairs
           \_ I think he's asking about the Civic Center stop -- though
              Powell and Civic Center are only a short walk apart.
              \_ Civic Center BART is further away by a couple of blocks.
                 \_ Duh, yeah you're right.  I ought to remember that, but,
                    uhm, last time I was at Union Square the evening ended...
                    well, actually I don't remember how it ended.  Oh but the
        \_ I usually avoid the gauntlet of people by getting off at montgomery
           and then walking up post.  It's a short walk and there is more
           window shopping on the way.  --gabriel
        \_ Powell was perfect. Thanks. -op.
2003/2/21 [Computer/SW/Security, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:27485 Activity:nil
        Crowd counting article restored, you censoring bastard.
2003/2/21-22 [Politics/Domestic, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:27482 Activity:very high
2/21    The Mythical Crowd Count:
   When told of The Chronicle's survey, Alex S. Jones, the director of
   Harvard University's Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics
   and Public Policy, said, "The number of people (in a crowd) is a
   mythical number, and now you're going to turn it into a fact, and that
   won't be welcomed."
        God fucking forbid we should really know how many people showed up
        at a protest anywhere.  It's much better to feel good about a made up
        number.  Facts aren't welcomed.
        \_ none of this will ever make both sides very happy, it's all
           a guessing game.  There wasn't a single hour period where
           everybody who went was there at the same time, it was over
           several hours.  Some people arrived late, some early,
           some (like me) bailed on the actual rally.  Even if you
           put up turnstiles to count people you're not going to
           get an accurate count.  I do think it's interesting
           that the chronicle devoted a few column inches to sunday's
           events, but published over 2 and a half pages on
           their big "overcounting" story.  Maybe the ChronWatch
           guy has their children hostage?  - danh
           \_ Oh man, please don't tell me you're a column inches counter
              like Mr. "Manufacturing Consent"?
        \_ gee, a counting method that apparently has never been used before,
           and is based on eyeball estimates of the number of people in
           photos taken at one specific point in a 4-hour event.  Great
           "facts," for sure.  -tom
           \_ Read the article.  Your description of the method is simply
              wrong.  Is that intentional?
              \_ they divide the photo into boxes, estimate (eyeball) how
                 "full" the box is, and estimate how many people would fit
                 in the box if it was full.  This will not give you a
                 "factual" count.  It's just another method of estimation. -tom
                 \_ No.  They count how many are in a box.  The Chronicle did
                    their own count using the same photos and came up with
                    similar numbers.  They also reported BART, bridge and ferry
                    traffic as compared to the week before.  It sounds a hell
                    of a lot more accurate than "200k makes us feel good so
                    don't mess with us!"
                    \_ what was that about "Read the article"?
                        "Overlaying the photographs with a grid,
                        surveyors from Air Flight Service estimated
                        crowd density in the plaza and along the
                        route. Each grid was evaluated and assigned a
                        density of people, from 10 percent to 100
                        percent full.  Most were judged at 25 percent
                        or 50 percent full. This is the first time the
                        firm has used its equipment for crowd estimation."
                        \_ Nice way to extract just what you wanted out of
                           context.  Those who read it will get it.  Those who
                           don't aren't reading this thread anyway.
                    \_ no, you're wrong.  it's inconceivable that 200k people
                       did not attend the demonstration.
                       \_ no, you're wrong.  it's inconceivable that 200k
                          people attended the demonstration.  (see how your
                          grade school quality 'logic' works?)
                          \_ see, i'm a well-meaning idealistic lover of
                             peace who gets lots of high-quality liberal
                             pussy, and you're a fascist pig.  of course
                             i am right and you're wrong.
                             \_ I get fascist pussy.  Fascists shower.
                                \_ It's so cute when two conservatives pretend
                                   to argue with each other. Get a room you two!
           \_ So tom, you've never heard of polls?  Statistical sampling?  This
              has never been tried before?
        \_ Jebus.  It's the Chron, and what interest do they have in
           publishing an article which repeatedly asserts an accurate
           low count?  What, they want to cash in on the new Republican
           wave overtaking the country?
           \_ Dude, repeat after me.  The press is an unbiased reporter
              of events.  It has no political agenda, and it does not
              bias its reporting to favor one political ideology over
2002/4/11 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:24420 Activity:nil
4/11    Q: Has BART ever had a fatal train crash ?

        A: No. The original 23 million mile BART cars which hurtle 90 mph down
        original tracks, over stressed concrete all-elevated structures,
        rusted steel support beams and narrow tunnel 300 feet below mean high
        water in a major earthquake zone has, so far, remained crash-free. Why
        do you ask ?
        \_ If the train derails in a narrow tunnel, how is it going to rescued?
2002/3/31 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:24272 Activity:high
3/30    What's up with SFO BART station? Wasn't it supposed to be open back
        in December?
        \_ it was actually supposed to open in 1998, I think.
          \_ What's up is it's a 1.5 billion-dollar boondoggle--a torturous
             solution to a non-problem.  If they'd just done the wise thing
             with an inter-modal station west of 101 hooked up to the
             monorail and CalTrain, it would have been half the cost and
             been done by now.  Thank Quentin Kopp.  -tom
                \_ Can you run more than the current 40 train schedule
                   (about every half hour) without grade separation?  If you
                   can't expand the schedule, and have to build overpasses
                   and underpasses, wouldn't you also run into the same issue?
                   \_ You mean CalTrain?  The CalTrain issue is orthogonal,
                      but you could electrify it and do grade separation for
                      the entire system for less than BART-to-SFO cost.  -tom
                \_ I'm unfamiliar with this plan.  Is this something that was
                   considered and rejected?  Is there a report somewhere that
                   says why?
                  \_ They wouldn't have had that tax revenue for the city
                     for all the hotels that they expected to be built next to
                     the BART station.  I think it was Millbrae.  --oj
                \_ Nobody wants to transfer 10 bazillion times to different
                   buses/cars/trains just to go between SF and SFO.
                   If *you* still want to do it go ahead, then *you* carry
                   your luggage in the rain before going to your meeting
                   with some COO who you hope buys your product.
                   Oh yeah, that's right you have a job that gives you
                   no sense of reality.
                   \_ You'll still have to transfer to the monorail unless
                      you're going to the international terminal.  There
                      wouldn't be any "luggage carrying in the rain" with
                      an intermodal station--have you ever been to an
                      airport with a monorail?  And BART-to-SFO means that
                      people coming from the south on CalTrain will have to
                      transfer to BART at Millbrae, and then to the monorail.
                      It's a planning disaster.  -tom
                   \_ if you have the kind of job where you're meeting with
                      COO's, take a fucking cab and expense it. tom is not the
                      one with no sense of reality - public transportation
                      should designed for the common man/woman.
                   \_ Oh my God!  And THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
                      \_ Do you believe in babies?
                         \_ Do they vote or donate to political campaigns?
2002/2/17-19 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:23894 Activity:high
2/16    How does taking a bus across the bay compare to BART?
        \_ Since you don't tell us how close you are at either end to a bus
           or BART station it's almost impossible to answer this question.
           If you were equally close to both at each end I'd take BART.
        \_ I have a friend who loves taking the bus.  no dealing
           with parking at bart, picks him up in alameda (where he lives),
           faster across as long as there isn't horrid traffic.
           \_ Also cheaper and faster than walking to BART if the line stops
        \_ traffic vs time it takes to reach BART is the constraint problem
        \_ Having done both, I'd take BART. The only advantage the bus has
           is that it runs 24/7. --dim
           \_ when did it start running past 1 or 2am?
              \_ The bus that crosses the bay runs all night. I got to see
                 all the fun parts of Oakland by bus in the middle of the
                 night. Here are the "night owl" routes:
                 \_ Cool, good to know. I was only thinking about the F line.
                    I wonder how it compares to current taxi rates because
                       other useful bus lines (like the 51 and the 43).
                    the A line doesn't exactly drop me off where I want to be.
                    \_ Look at the rest of the AC transit night service --
                       the A line gives you free, timed transfers to several
                       other useful bus lines (like the 51 and the 40).
2002/1/24-25 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:23650 Activity:high
1/24    Just got back from visiting Japan. They have anti-groping notices
        on the BART. What a fucked up country.
        \_ Damn, if I only knew groping was okay when I worked there 5 years
           ago ...
        \_ "on BART" not "on the BART"
           \_ "on the transit (system)" or "on transit (system)"?
               \_ "on Bay Area Rapid Transit" or "on the Bay Area Rapid Transit"?
               \_ Go to and see their usage of "taking BART"
               \_ Does it really fucking matter?
           \_ Oh just get on the 880 and shut up about it, stupid nocal ho.
              \_ You mean "on 880" and "NorCal." LA-isms suck.
        \_ BART goes to Japan?
           \_ The Trans-Pacific tube is boring as shit.  Bring a book.
              \_ and damn those popping ears.
                 \_ the ear problem is nothing. don't want to relive the
                    popping rectum phenomenon again though....
2001/11/3 [Reference/BayArea, Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:22919 Activity:high
11/2    Anyone crossed the San Mateo Bridge or the Dumbarton Bridge today?
        How's the situation there?
        \_ Seemed normal. A couple of CHP cars on either side. Traffic was
           about average for a Friday.
        \_ I was so paranoid this morning that I took 880S -> 237W -> 101N to
           go from Hayward to Foster City.
           go from Hayward to Foster City to avoid any bridges.
           \_ THAT must've sucked. it must have added 1-2 hours to your
              morning commute. 880S from Union City to 237 is horrid, tho
              101N should've been ok.
              \_ It took me a whole 1.5 hours, but that was because there were
                 one construction site running a jack-hammer and one accident
                 on 880S, and two accidents on 101N, all of which caused
                 moron drivers to slow down and look even though no lanes were
        \_ stayed home altogether and will do bart next week. Better safe
                than dead..
                \_ you're a moron.
        \_ got laid off this week. No bridges for me. Can't afford the toll.
2001/9/16 [Transportation/PublicTransit, Academia/Berkeley, Reference/BayArea] UID:22480 Activity:nil
9/15    I have a room to rent near North Berkeley BART for
        $400/mo. It's a bit of an improvised affair but fully
        furnished and good for a temporary situation. Email
        me if you're interested. --ulysses
2001/8/30-31 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:22300 Activity:insanely high
8/30    Average salary for a BART stattion agent is $41k.  How much does an
        average college grad made these days??  And they still want ~9% raise
        every year?  What's the average salary raise (or, better, decline) in
        this economic downturn??

        And they still want to go on strike?

        This morning I saw a BART employee at Hayward station who's suppose to
        be vacuuming the carpet but was actually standing still and talking to
        his buddy.  I was so tempted to yell at him "With that kind of pay, go
        to work, fucker!"
        \_ At 41k, you have a take-home pay of 2500 or so a month.  Rent or
           moetgage payments in this area can easily be half of that or more.
           Ever here of cost- of-living?  Just because yer mom is paying your
           tuition doesn't mean everyone lives the upper-middle class lifestyle
                \_ I have no dispute with the pay, I have dispute with
                   the +9% a year.
           \_ Oh fuck off. "Can be" is not the same as "is". You can easily
              live well on 41k. Get a roommate if the rent's too high. Vacuuming
              carpets isn't exactly hard.
              \_ moron, these are head of households, they have to take care of
                a family twink
                \_ Thank you.  My point exactly.
                   \_ So what if they're head of households? Why do they deserve
                      more if they are? It's their choice to have a family. If
                      they were responsible they wouldn't have 4 kids if they
                      can't support them. Dumbshits. They deserve no more than
                      people are willing to pay them.
                      \_ moron again, i am talking about bringing in a stranger
                      to rent a room in a family's house. get a roomate? that\
                      your resolution is dimwitted
                         \_ did you read what I said? if they can't support
                            living in that house they shouldn't have bought the
                            fucking thing. it's all quite simple really.
           \_ My mom isn't paying my tuition.  I put my sis through Cal paying
              out-of-state tuition when I was making $40k and now I support my
              parents.  And according to your logic, a high-school dropout
              flipping burgers at McDonald's or filling gas at a station also
              deserves $41k and 9% annual raise, because he also deserves
              owning a home and living the upper-middle class lifestyle just
              like some other who works hard to graduate from a prestigiuous
              college and gets a high-pay job, right?
              \_ Wow, the food service industry has to accomodate philosophy
                 majors, history majors, AND high school dropouts? This must
                 be some competitive industry.
              \_ I don't see how people who work hard and went to a good school
                 "deserve" better lifestyles than people who didn't.
                 I say we should have minimum living standards and let the
                 market decide the rest.  College grad or not.  What
                 are you, some kind of commie?  I bet you're a FOB.
                 \_ This has nothing to do with communism.  This has everything
                    to do with moderately skilled and/or unskilled labor
                    being able to live in this area.  You drive all the
                    janitors, bus drivers, and bart attendents out, and
                    what do you have?
                    \_ If they are driven out, the wages will increase and many
                       more will come to take their place. There's also the
                       large pool of high school and college kids.
                       \_ and this is different from raising current wages how?
                          Are you trying to retort, or just stating the wildly
                          \_ i'm saying we don't need raises unless they can't
                             find anyone to do the job which isn't the case.
                             \_ So, create a mass exodus of lower-skilled
                                workers, then deal with the massive wage spikes
                                necessary to lure employees to take those
                                \_ where's the shortage? we have a higher
                                   unemployment rate than the nat'l average.
                                   schoolteachers and nurses don't make much
                                   more than these bart broompushers.
                                   \_ actually they make less, but that's a
                                      different problem.
                                      \_ nurses make more than that here
                 \_ If the market of BART labor is free, then yes, I agree
                    with you in that we should let the market decide BART
                    employees' salaries.  But the BART market is not free,
                    because there is the union which disallows BART to let-go
                    of the employees.  In other words the union forces BART's
                    demand curve to go up with the supply curve when the union
                    decides to move up the supply curve.  And the union is
                    indeed moving up the supply curve because it also disallows
                    BART to hire non-union workers.  If it's a free market like
                    the CS engineering labor market, we should allow them to
                    set their prices freely.  But since it is not, we (maybe
                    the govt. or some regulating body) shouldn't allow that.
        \_ BART is a horrible attemt to make a subway. Only slightly better
           than the LA subway system.
           \_ the only problem with BART is that it was state of the art
              when it opened in 1976.
              \_ 1972.
              \_ And the fact that it doesn't go to the South Bay
                 \_ The "South Bay" governments didnt want BART.  they opted
                    to spend their money on TA instead.
                    \_ So what? BART still suffers from not reaching the
                       South Bay.
              \_ The subway in Hong Kong also opened in 1976.  They now carry
                 2.2M passengers a day in the city of 6M population.  Their
                 ticket machines and turnstiles jam much less frequently, and
                 their train runs at 1.5 minute intervals during rush hours.
                 \_ I think the key thing you are missing is a city with
                    6M people needs a very differnt subway system than
                    a large spread out area with much less population.
                    Of fucking COURSE HK has a better subway system.
                    \_ HK is cool. Isn't Maggie Cheung hot?
2001/8/16-19 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:22140 Activity:nil 61%like:21405
8/15    Quasi-Geek bike ride this Saturday; meet at 9:00 AM at Rockridge
        BART.  Mail ride-bike-request for details.
2001/6/15-16 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:21539 Activity:kinda low
06/15   Studio sublet avaialbe now through Aug. 20. One block from Bart,
        across street from campus, located on Oxford St, btw. Center and
        Allston Way.  All utilites are paid. And it is furnished.  If
        interested, please call 510-540-4834.
        \_ Price?
           \_ "Free" to the right person.
2001/6/6-7 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:21442 Activity:high
5/6     Good news everybody!
        AC Transit line 217 goes from Fremont BART to Tasman/McCarthy
        Rd. Now you can take public transit to get from the East
        Bay/Fremont to Cisco land!                       --jeffwong
        \_ Are the lines 2xx and 3xx new?  The Fremont BART web page doesn't
           list any of these lines.
           \_ AC Transit revamped the routes and didn't want to use teh same
                numbers. Check out
        \_ why is a bus line that would take more than 1.5 hours for ten
           miles good news?  "Oh boy, I can go from an hour drive to 3 hours
           public transit!  Take my car, please!"
           \_ good news, everyone!  you don't have to eat meat!  I've got enough
              gazpacho for everyone!
           \_ It actually only seems to be 58 minutes.
2001/6/1-3 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:21405 Activity:high 61%like:22140
6/01    Low-key bike ride on Saturday, 6/2, meeting at 10:00 AM at Rockridge
        BART.  Route at
        Mail ride-bike-request for details.
        \_ "4 legs is better than 2."
           \_ Four legs good, two leggers BETTER.
        \_ car train.  Meet on Sat, drive around bikers and laugh at them.
           Hand out training wheels and diapers.
           \_ I'm in. My wife and I will bring our matching Suburbans.
        \_ is it true bikers are gay?
           \_ the gay ones are.
           \_ Yes.
           \_ No.
              \_ It's okay.  Those strange feelings you have are completely
                 natural.  Come out and let your inner beauty shine!
2000/6/28-29 [Transportation/PublicTransit, Reference/Tax] UID:18558 Activity:very high
6/28    Anybody opposed to extending the sales tax to fund Bart to San Jose?
        Sales tax is a very regressive tax.  The poor are paying for this
        BART extension.
        \_ Taxes are evil.  BART should be fully private.  The whole
           institution of public [transportation|housing|schools|utilities]
           is an evil remnant of the pro-communist New Deal.
                   \_ The New Deal, New Society, blah blah blah, the
                      luser COMMIES (I mean democrats) FDR, JFK, LBJ forced
                      on America are the worst thing that has ever happened
                      to this great nation. We would be 10 times the nation
                      we are today if not for the liberal communist junkies
                      holding us back.
                        \_ It's all the fault of the Illuminati.  Fortunately
                           the Majestic 12 have splintered off and are ready
                           to kick some ass.
                           \_ Majestic ... MAJESTIC!
                \_ It's not that taxes are evil, per se.  Some amount of tax
                   is necessary for services such as the police, fire, and
   cal from Fremont for 3 1/2 years (93-97) and in that
                      time the ticket price went from ~ 2.50 to ~ 5.50. They
                      more than doubled the ticket price, with the promise
                      of better service, but they never got around to fixing
                      the ticket machines, elevators or even increasing the
                      train frequency.

                   emergency medical folks.  The military can't be privately
                   funded either.  Sales tax for BART is ridiculous.  There
                   are cities such as Livermore that have been paying the BART
                   taxes for decades which have yet to receive their promised
                   BART station.  BART is corrupt.  I hate seeing public money
                   go to corrupt public institutions.  The water board is the
                   same.  And no, this is not a troll just because I disagree
                   with tom.  There's more to be said about BART but it makes
                                \_ then go find a machine at stanfurd to
                   me ill.  I'm going to stop now.  It's only the motd.
                   \_ Well said.  What is your name?
                        \_ Can't say.  I'd ruin my rep as an anonymous coward
                           and worthless troll.  :-)
                        \_ who said I disagree with you?  I'm the one saying
                           BART's a disaster below.  -tom
                           \_ tom, you are not allowed to agree with people
                              who talk sense.
                                         and Stanfurd?  -tom
                      got around to fixing the ticket machines, elevators or even
                           \_ We disagree about taxes in general.  Not BART.
                   \_ BART is exteremely corrupt. I rode BART every day to cal
                      from Fremont for 4 years (93-97) and in that time the
                      ticket price went from ~ 2.50 to ~ 5.50. This increase was
                      made under the promise of better service, but they never
                      got around to fixing the ticket machines, elevators or
                      increasing the train frequency. Near the end I started
                      driving to cal since it cost less.
                      The Light Rail in SJ is almost as bad. It is fairly
                      expensive per day and it doesn't stop anywhere remotely
                      useful. I only rode it with my ECO pass from Cisco to
                      get between the old bldgs (A-P) and the new ones (1-12)
                      while I was at Cisco.
                      \_ The assertion that SJ light rail "doesn't stop
                         anywhere remotely useful" depends on where it is you
                         want to go.  I found it particularly useful for going
                         from downtown to the airport.  Now that it goes all
                         the way up to downtown Mountain View, I'd say that it
                         goes to many more "useful" places.  I think the *real*
                         handicap of SJ light rail is that it travels at
                         *30 MILES AN HOUR* for much of its route (and there's
                         no signal preemption, so it stops at traffic signals).
                         It'd seem a lot easier to pry carheads out of their
                         cars if they could see rail moving faster than their
                         auto traffic.  For now, it's worse than the bus.
                           -- kahogan
                         \_ The day public transit is cheaper and faster than
                            driving and runs on my schedule, I'll think about
                            it.  In the meantime, keep pumping the oil.
                \_ get a life, troll.  -tom
                   \_ Stay out of my wallet you fucking liberal.
                        \_ Liberal means open minded.  I think you were looking
                           for the word 'leftist'.
                        \_ Stay away from public places and services, ASSHOLE!
                           \_ I learned to stay away from anything 'public'
                              when a private alternative exists (it's always
                              a better choice anyways).
                                \_ then go find a machine at stanford to
                                   troll on, weenie.  -tom
                                   \_ Does your little liberal mind understand
                                      the difference between something paid
                                      by coerced money (i.e. taxes) and
                                      something paid for, and maintained by
                                      \_ does your trolling ass understand
                                         the difference between UC Berkeley
                                         and Stanford?  -tom
                                        \_ note to nweaver: spelling it
                                           "stanfurd" isn't funny.  -tom
                                         \_ no, my ass doesn't understand
                                            anything except farting and pooping.
        \_ Anything that gets BART to san jose is a good thing.
           Even if "the poor" pay for most of it, they will be the ones
           to benefit from it, too.
                \_ The MTC did a study on south bay rail transit.  According
                   to the study, extending the existing light rail system to
                   Fremont would be *one-seventh* the cost of a BART extension
                   and would have *more* riders than the BART extension.
                   BART is a disaster.  -tom
                   \_ Tom, is this study online somewhere?  I'd love to see
                   \_ BART is a disaster?  Now look who is a troll?
                        \_ What would you call a system that costs 7 times
                           as much for fewer riders?   -tom
                           \_ I don't trust that study.  BART is immensely
                              useful in practice, though regretably too
                                \_ BART is useful to a small segment of people.
                                   It is just barely sufficient for many others.
                                   In general, BART is a corrupt waste for most
                                   everyone.  BART wasn't done right in the
                                   first place and politics have ruined what
                                   little was good.
        \_ It would be better to use some of the money they're cutting from
           vehicle license fees instead of sales taxes, but that will never
           fly politically, so we're stuck with the sales tax.
                \_ Gotta give those lexus owners their tax break. -nweaver
                   \_ I bet you ll change your tune when you get out of
                      school and get an actual job, instead of leeching off
                      your parents like you do now.
                           \_ He won't get a job if the Lexus owners don't
                              get a tax break. If the richest have money
                              to spend, the invest it in things that can
                              make them more money, which creates jobs that
                              employ people like nweaver. If you threaten
                              the wealthy, you threaten all of society.
                              \_ Voodoo economics, whee!  Go, Reagan!
                                \_ Ya, so?  It worked.
                        \_ I can tell you unequivocally that Nick is not
                           leaching, but instead being exploited.  He
                           gets "paid" for doing research, and doesn't cost
                           his parents any money by being in school.  However,
                           the "pay" is about 1/2 to 1/3 industry rate for
                           the same work, though it is sufficient for a
                           meagre living.   --PeterM
                           \_ It's a choice he's decided to make.  He'll get
                              out of school eventually and pay more in taxes
                              every year then he took in in total every 3+
                              years as a student.  We'll see how he feels about
                              it then.
                      \_ tis true. For, once on your own, you lose all sense
                         of civic responsibility. Shit, and a lexus is $$$,
                         doncha know!!!!
                        \_ Duh, poor people have cars too.  Don't be stupid.
                           Cutting the fees helps all car owners.  Where'd you
                           get the idea the poor don't own cars?  Get out of
                           your little ivory tower and go visit East Palo Alto,
                           Oakland, Richmond, etc.  Cars are everywhere and
                           plenty of nice ones.
                                \_ Truly poor people own older, less valuable
                                   cars that have a much lower VLF than a new
                                   car.  The current proposal to implement the
                     \_ Actually, most of the SUV drivers are women. I'm
                          not sure that they want to get a penile implant.
                                   VLF cut by taking half off the bill and then
                                   refunding the other half is nothing but pure
                                   political stupidity.
                                   \_ Let's punish people for having greater
                                      success in life than others.
                                      \_ Let's say we were to implement this
                          that kind of a position in life.

                                         for grades instead of cars:
                                         Anyone one or more SD's above the Mean
                                         ought to be punished for greater
                                         Is that equitable? No one would agree
                                         with this, but when it comes to income
                                         re-adjustment, liberals are all for it.
                                         \_ "Incomng readjustment" is also known
                                            as tax the successful to feed the
                                            lazy, stupid, and inept.
           \_ I'd vote for a special car registration tax for gas guzzlers.
              Say increase the registration fee for SUVs and Minivans or
              anything that gets under 20 miles a gallon.  And for those
              people that drive monsters like Suburbans that get 8 miles a
              gallon, we'll hit them even harder.
                \_ Let's punish people for driving a vehicle I don't like.
                   \_ Let's punish people just because it's fun!
              \_ Actually, this sounds more like "let's punish people for
                 driving a vehicle that I can't afford". Get over your
                 jealousy. Some people are successful others aren't. Stop
                 whining and figure out how to make it into the top 1% of
                 wage earners so that you don't have to worry about stupid
                 shit like what the BART costs in taxes. I paid AMT this
                 year in excess of Bill Clinton's salary. It hurt and I
                 think that it was unfair, but I made enough money that
                 I can just say screw it and get on with my life.
                 \_ typical small penis male driving a big SUV assuming that
                    everybody else makes less money than you.  Punishing
                    SUV owners has nothing to do with money and everything
                    to do with the environment.  I suggest that you spend your
                    money getting a penile implant rather than buying a big
                       \_ Actually, most of the SUV drivers are women. They
                          like SUV's because they are "safer" for themselves
                          and thier kids. And I'm not sure that these women
                          want to get a penile implant.
                          \_ Obviously, they need a BRAIN implant, because
                             they aren't safer for them, and they're a
                             hazard to OTHER people, too.
                          I don't drive a SUV, but I do drive a larger luxury
                          car (that I bought used so it cost less than a
                          camry) whose MPG (~ 15) puts it into your punishment
                          category. It is unfair to punish those of us who
                          chose to live life well and have the resources to
                          do so, just because you are incapable of reaching
                          that kind of a position in life. And like I've said
                          before, if my car contributes to global warming,
                          so much the better. We could do with warmer weather
                          and more beaches.
                          I just don't get the Liberal attachment to the
                          "environment". People are part of nature too.
                          Technology is created by people and thus it is
                          part of nature to. Stop getting in the way of
                          mankind's destiny. And while you're at it stop
                          preventing the access of ordinary people driving
                          cars and mountain bikes to the national parks.
                          \_ My wife wants an SUV. she does NOT want it
                             because it's "safer for the kids". She wants
                             it because it puts her above everyone else.
                             \_ Because so many other idiots bought oversized
                                vehicles.  Get them all off the road and then
                                no one will need one.
                    \_ Your sense of scale is sadly lacking my brainwashed
                       friend.  Even the wishes of a penis-waving male have
                       higher precedence than 'native rocks' and wild beasts.
                       Man is, and should be, the master of his environment.
                       Our days of worshipping nature are thankfully over.
                       \_ Hi, Ilya.
                          \_ Hi!
                                \_ ssssssssstarsssssssssss
                 \_ I stand corrected.  I was groping around for "can't afford"
                    but missed.  Well put.
                    \_ Grope harder.
                       \_ My AMT tax $'s are probably being used in this
                          manner by Bill Clinton.
                       \_ I groped sufficiently, thank you.
        \_ Is a person earning $60 an hour actually contributes 5 times
           what I am contributing to the society with my $12 an hour job?
           My job would have been worth much more if they hadn't let all
           these cheap foreign labor, and cheap foreign software coolies
           into the country!  Why don't they let in some foreign lawyers
           and doctors too!  Why do they allow foreigners to study
           computer science and not let them enter medical school !
           Does some arsehole lawyer earing $100 an hour contribute
           more to society than a dedicated elementary school teacher,
           or a pastor, or a research scientist?!  The market for labor
           is neither free nor fair!  Why do you assume it is so?!
           \_ When I drive on the bay bridge, stuck behind
              the toll plaza, and I look in the next lane and
              see a giant 11 miles to gallon tanker monstrosity
              SUV, WITH ONLY ONE PASSENGER, I want to kill you all
              and join Jason Meggs in his glorious revolution.
              On BART yesterday I saw someone reading "The Complete
              Ayn Rand", hopefully she drove to the BART parking log
              in something large and obnoxious.
           \_ In terms of his/her ability to give back to society, Yes.
              \_ That's why you get huge tax breaks when you donate to
                 charities, but pay lots of taxes when you just wanna
                 spend it all on luxury goods.
              In terms of his/her ability to pay taxes, Yes.
           \_ Yes, what about your dedicated firemen, policemen, and
              members of the USAF!  Their pay are relatively low too!
           \_ Yes, like those filthy rich CEOs just buying up the
              congressmen to allow in more foreign workers, so that
              instead of earning 1 billion, they can now earn 2
              billions while American workers suffer!
                \_Yeah!  Just like that Survivor show!  I can't believe
                  they haven't kicked Richard off yet.
                  \_ i'd just like to say that this thread sucks ass.
                     hahaha, i had thae last word!
                     \_ No, I have the last word! -your hot gay pal Richard
                        \_ Actually.  No.  You don't.  -anonymous troll coward
2000/5/29-31 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:18361 Activity:very high
5/27    I have a job in Santa Clara and trying to find housing.  Is
        Fremont a pretty bad place to live (in terms of commute time)?
        \_ Assuming you drive it between 0700 and 1000 like most
           commuters, 880 from Auto Mall to Dixon Landing will take
           way too long.  Past that, it should be mostly okay.
           If your company doesn't already do some sort of carpool
           or vanpool thing to/from BART, raise a stink.  Commuting
           via car sucks.  Public transit takes longer, but at least
           you can stay far less surly.
           \_ Get motorcycle.
                \_ We need more organ donors.
                \_ hey, if you ever donate a kidney, a lung, and a cornea,
                  you can be a millionaire for that sacrifice..just to
                  be off topic.
          \_ Where's a good place to start looking for apartments?
              \_ Montana.
                \_ The commute is a bit hard.  Maybe you can telecommute a
                   few times a week.
                   \_ It worked for Mod Flanders until she died.
           \_ it's going to hurt
           \_ any good side street shortcuts?  Is it better on 880
              south of 237 junction?
              \_ the 880 cooridor is prob the worst traffic in the bay that
                 isn't caused by a bridge. the only way around it is to get
                 over to 680. it clears up ALOT right after the stretch
                 from Dixon to 237. -shac
                 \_ Bad as it is, 880/237 is now only like 3rd or 4th on
                    the list of non-bridge-induced traffic spots.
              \_ 880 is damn clean right after 237 and down until it hits 280
                 or so (haven't been much south of there); but job in Santa
                 Clara involves 237 which is also awful for the first couple
                 of miles after the 880. If you're heading south from Fremont,
                 use Mission or Driscoll, and then Warm Springs to take city
                 streets down to Dixon Landing. Dixon Landing itself is packed,
                 but it's still better then rotting on the 880. On average,
                 expect 60-80 minutes (ie from center of Fremont to center
                 of Santa Clara). Definitely not under 40. -alexf [commuting
                 from Fremont for 2nd summer now]
                 \_ Though you must take into account that in terms of any
                    sort of entertainment, you have to drive at least 30
                    minutes just to get OUT of fremont in either direction.
                    All commuting and no play makes Jack a dumkopf
                 \_ What? It took me 90 minutes average to get down from Cal
                    to Nvidia and ATI Research.  I doubt the drive from Cal
                    to Fremont takes only 10-20 minutes.
                 \_ You should also note summer traffic is easier.
              \_ Isnt there still the 101 bottleneck south of 880/237?
                 something like 5 lanes becoming 2?
           \_ My girlfriend takes 50-60 minutes from Palo Alto to Freemont.
              \_ That's against the popular direction; Fremont -> Palo Alto is
                 ~80 minutes (via Dumbarton, at least). -alexf
                        \_ 15 minutes for me (Fremont to Menlo Park) at 8:30am
                           Gotta love the carpool lane.
              \_ Turns tricks in Fremont to afford Palo Alto?  I'd think the
                 PA tricks would pay better.
              \_ Your girlfriend drives slow. More like 50-60 minutes from
                 PA to Berkeley.
           \_ Sure, Fremont is nice, but why do you need to live there too?
              Why not live in Mt View/Santa Clara/S'vale and avoid the
              traffic? You get a consistent 15-minute commute.
              If you're working at Exodus or the new Sun campus
              I can give you some commuting tips/tricks on where to live.
              \_ Fremont is nice?
                \_ Fremont is a pit.  Dunno where s/he came up with the idea
                   that Fremont is nice.  Dirty slum wouldn't be too far off.
                   \_ Bits of it suck... so what?  Bits of every town suck.
                      Much of it is drab suburbia, some of it is nice.
                        \_ Uhm, no.  I'll be kind and say you have a different
                           understanding of 'nice' from me and leave it at
                           \_ Mission San Jose is a dirty slum?  You have
                              high standards indeed.
                   \_ it's a shithole, not much better off than union city.
                      the only thing from there was christy yamaguchi, if
                      you consider that anything good.  and the original
                      home of a certain big-eared freak that has plagued
                      the lives of certain berkeley alumni to this very day.
2000/4/12 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:17977 Activity:low
4/11    I need web site that lets you enter address A and address B in a
        particular city and tells you how to get there via public
        transportation.  That displays bus/bart/muni/whatever schedules
        and displays a map of the trip.  The works.  Does such a
        thing exists?  If not, can somebody at Yahoo get working on it?
              \_ use the infinitive.
        \_ for the schedules and maps, but
           no point to point info that i know of --oj
        \_ It's called a telephone.  Call the transity authority and they can
           help you plan it all out.
2000/3/23 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:17827 Activity:high
3/22    Why do people advocate BART + bike-ride? I can never find a friggin'
        place to park @ the BART station, and during peak hour (working hour)
        I can't even take my bike to BART. Fuck BART, bike-ride, and the
        environmentalist hippies. I'm taking my SUV.
        \_ I'm moving out of the bay area, buying a house, and biking 1 mile to
        \_ Then during non-peak hours, you can do it, right?
        \_ I'm living in an apt. within walking distance from Rockridge staton.
           And I'm moving to a new home in Fremont where there's a bus stop
           right across the street from my door that goes to the BART station.
2000/2/25-26 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:17620 Activity:moderate
2/24    What's the easiest way to get to San Francisco Airport from
        Berkeley without a car?  Doesn't have to be the cheapest, but
        needs to be reliable (on time).                 - brendal
        \_ don't you have a car?  why not use the long term parking lot?
           -jeff (cs 152 proj partner)
        \_  I've never had trouble with Bayporter.  door-to-door shuttle.
            $16 from Berkeley to SFO.  -PeterM
            \_ Prices recently went up. It's $19 to OAK, I think SFO
               is also $19.
        \_ take bart to colma. there's a bus that takes you to sfo.
           bayporter requires reserving and shit like that.
        \_ Take BART to Embarcadero.  There's a SamTrans bus outside the
           Grayhound terminal going to SFO.
           \_ that SUCKS! i've done it a dozen or so times becuase i didn't
              have much money to blow on fancy van services, but if you
              do have money, don't do this. samtrans fucking sucks.
              they are unreliable, slow, crowded, infrequent, and have rude
              asshole drivers.
                \- unless it is at an inconvenient time [really late or rush
                hr], find a friend with a car and buy him or her dinner.--psb
1999/12/30 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:17123 Activity:very high
12/29   Bike or take public transport.
        \_ I used to bike to work ... but then the co. was very small and
           now I share the room with several other employees -- how do you
           deal with showers/sweatiness/stench?
                \_ It's not a problem for reasonably short rides.  For
                   longer ones, bring a change of clothes.  -tom
                   \_ Glad I don't share space with you.
        \_ Public transit and/or bike just isn't feasible for certain commutes.
           I.e. berkeley<->palo alto.  45 minutes drive (outside of traffic
           hours), 2.5 hours+  via caltrain+bart
           \_ 46 72 69 6E 6B 20 72 75 6C 65 73 21
           \_ 1782^12 + 1841^12 = 1922^12
           \_ e^(pi*i) = -1
              \_ I've always preferred e^(pi*i) + 1 = 0
              \_ But that's just because someone _defined_ e(i*x) to be
                 cos(x) + i * sin(x), right?
           \_ P = NP
1999/11/4-5 [Academia/Berkeley/Classes, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:16825 Activity:high
11/3    Job opening for students on University Ave. Can start now or in
        January. See /csua/pub/jobs/ACT for more details.
        \_ You are dreaming/smoking if you think you can get what you
           are looking for at the $ you are offering.
           \_ Is $20/hr for students not having to commute not considered
              decent? I'm making less than $12/hr on campus. Also, most
              students who have taken 61B probably have the requirements
              for that job. Java, HTML, knowledge of network protocols...
              that's all stuff that people should know by the end of their
              freshman year and they can pick up the other details as they
                ^^^^^^^^^\_ BWAHAHAHAHAHAH -- an ex-TA
                            \_ Most dumbasses in industry know less than
                               us elite Cal students right after 61B.
              go along. Fine, the neural network stuff was a little too much
              to ask of most undergraduates, but other than that? Can you
              site other companies close to campus that are willing to pay
              part-time students that much?
              \_ for "experienced"?  how much did you know at the end of
                 your freshman year?  if you're willing to make a 15 hr/week
                 commitment i'm sure there are better opportunities out there.
                 \_ Can you name _one_ in Berkeley?
                        \_ BART isn't that far away.
                           \_ BART + waiting for the BART + time on BART +
                              walk from BART to work doesn't compare with
                              being in Berkeley.
                              \_ ah, but if you *work* for BART,
                              you make over 50k plus benifits, you
                              only  have to know how to press two keys,
                              and you dont even need 61a!
                                \_ Depends on the pay.  A jobless hungry
                                   student's time has zero value so hungry
                                   student is better off BARTing to a better
                                   paying job then walking to a shitty job
                                   nearby, assuming the BARTable job pays well
                                   enough to cover the BART fees plus some.
                                   \_ Sure, but a jobless, not hungry student
                                      who wants good work experience (so that
                                      he can make more later) and some extra
                                      cash on the side that is easy to earn
                                      would probably take the local job.
                                      \_ I disagree.  When I was in the
                                         situation of jobless but not hungry
                                         student I rode BART to a job.--oj
                                        \_ For a shitty job? Why would you
                                           BART to a shitty job when you can
                                           walk to a better one?
1999/10/26-27 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:16774 Activity:nil
10/25   I just spent $500 on a nasty car scratch I got in Oakland and
        realized that I could've spent that money on many years of BART
        or bike-ride. FUCK CARS!!!
        \_ Go away, troll.  If BART was a useful form of transport for you,
           you'd have been using it for years already.  Go away.  You're full
           of shit.  This never happened.  Sign your name.
        \_ Troll or not, $500 would only get you 100 days on BART.  You'd
           get a pretty kick-ass bike for it though.  --PeterM
           \_ Yeah but if you're riding a $500 bike in oakland, its likely
              it would get stolen.
        \_ Hell you could be walking for FREE!!!!!!!!!111
        \_ You could just not fix the scratch.  Go see Fight Club.  It's
           inspired me to live in a slum and forsake all my worldly possessions
           and become a terrorist Siddharta.
           \_ wow, you lived with arvin too?
                \_ And then you could RIDE BIKE! up to a federal building with
                   a few tons of explosives on the back.
1999/9/27-28 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:16608 Activity:very high
9/27    San Francisco software localization company needs engineers.
        Many openings, entry level to high end.
        Good things to know: Oracle, jsp, SGML/XML.
        Wanna sunbathe in South Park with startup geeks?
        Contact mgp@soda
        \_ How much do you guys generally offer to a 2-3 year software
           Engineer?  If the money is right, who cares if I have ride bart or
           bus. =)
        \_ which company? do they have a website?
        \_ No thanks.  Only if I already lived in SF.  Parking already sucks
           and thanks to Da Maya! building a stadium down the street and
           destroying hundreds of parking spots to do so, it's going to be
           completely impossible soon.  Your company picked a trendy, but
           stupid place to setup.  I was incedibly happy when I stopped
           working in that area.  Oh yeah, "RIDE LINUX BIKE!" for the
           drones and clones that spew that stuff.
           \_My company picked a cheap place to setup, five years before
             the "trendy" companies moved in, thank you very much.  As
             for parking, if you can't handle a six-block walk from BART,
             you probably need to work from home anyway.  Oh, yeah, I ride
             bike.  15 minutes to work.
             \_ You implied it was a startup, but I guess not.  I can easily
                handle a walk from BART.  You ever tried parking at a BART
                station so you could take BART?  I worked up the street and
                it was faster *and* cheaper to drive and that includes wear
                and tear on my car.  Fuck BART.  It's easy to spout off about
                how easy it is to use BART when you've never done it.
                \_ I guess the 200,000 people who do it every day don't
                   do it either.
                   \_ They do it because they *have* to.  I don't *have* to.
                      No one with half a brain is doing so.  Just because a lot
                      \_ its called poverty you fucking idiot. not everyone
                         in the bay area is a programmer.
                      of other people are stupid and slavish doesn't mean
                      stupidity and slavishness are good.  If they all jumped
                      off the bridge would you use that as a reason to jump
                      off the bridge, too?  I can't believe you're trying to
                      use such cheap high school boy logic.  Fuck BART and fuck
                      stupid people and fuck high school boy logic.  BART is
                      expensive and takes too damned long.  It'll be even
                      worse when they kill more parking and even more people
                      take BART.  And if you're a woman, you'll get harassed
                      on BART.  Yes, it happens.  It happens a lot.  This may
                      not be an issue for the women you know, however.  Come
                      to think of it, SOMA isn't a neighborhood a woman can
                      walk through safely, either.
                \_  Of couse, you can bike to/from a BART station, but that
                    pretty much makes your work hours either late (get
                    to work at around 9:30) or early (before 7am).   IT sure
                    does beat driving to the south bay though.
                        -- been there done that
                \_ you can bike to BART any time, park your bike there and
                   walk to SOMA.
           \_ can you post some job descriptions in /csua/pub/jobs?
                \_ And make sure it's world readable.
                   \_ Done.  /csua/pub/jobs/
1999/8/10-11 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:16283 Activity:high
8/10    Does anyone know when CalTran is going to expand/fix/speed up the
        80 to 580/880 junction? Or if it happening right now, and when it
        will get done? It is horrible.
        \_ CalTran is the worst excuse of a D.O.T I have ever seen in my
        \_ Ride a bike.
            \_ Infinity and beyond the millenium.
        \_ Yeah right, good luck.  Even if they started yesterday, it would
           still takes several years to fix anything and by then there'd be
           so many more cars it would remain about the same as now and it
           would suck in the mean time because of construction delays.  You
           should try to arrange your job/home so that you don't have to go
           through there or go through at off hours when it's not quite
           so bad.  Or you could RIDE BIKE! as the trolls would suggest, even
           though that doesn't answer your question and won't help you out in
           any way at all.
           \_ Or worse yet, you could RIDE BART!!!!
                \_ Not much different from RIDE BIKE! since neither can get
                   you anywhere useful or get you there when you need to be
                   there, but sure, as long as the BIKE! trolls are out, we
                   can add the BART!!! and other public transport trolls to
                   the mix.  What the hell, they're all stupid answers anyway.
                   \_ Huh?
                   \_ I take BART to SF to work everyday; it beats the hell
                      out of waiting over an hour to get across the bridge
                      during the morning commute, and then paying $7+ to
                      park for the day.
           \_ sure it sucks, but what state are you from?  as far as i can
              tell, they're all abou the sam: spend 90% of money on highways,
              and overspend on highway projects due to mismanagement.
              name one american state excluding washington D.C. that
              consistently deals with transportation issues inteligently. this
              is an american problem, not a california problem.
1999/6/10-11 [Transportation/Bicycle, Science/Space, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:15938 Activity:nil
6/10    SQUIRT RIDE TOMORROW!!!!  100 water pistols, a couch, and you and
        your bike!  Gatehr 5:30 pm to leave around 6 pm, downtown BART
1999/3/12-13 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:15585 Activity:nil
3/12    THE COUCH RIDES TONIGHT!  Join the bike parade 5:30 PM downtown
        Berkeley BART to ride at 6 PM.!!!!!
           (it's our SIXTH birthday and there's a party afterwards)
1999/2/1-3 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:15337 Activity:very high
2/1     I'm looking for a terrorist organization to join so that I can become
        a rabid protransit freak and blow up BART so that it can be replaced
        by something decent.  Any suggestions?                  -lila
        \_ BAMN, CalPIRG, CSUA...
           \_ SAS, ASUC...
              \_ AUA, CSA, AAA...
                            \_ a-a-a-a!  -militant kirby
                                \_ urg nig!  rugga grf  -militant furby
        \_ BART needs a dozen RAF-style assaults. I am starting a cell.
           Muni is beyond salvation.
                \_ I'll join.  I have the whole unshaven militant eurotrash
                   terrorist thing going...  -John
        \_ You think BART's not decent?  Wait till you try Muni.  They *often*
           stop their trains 28 blocks away (20th Ave.) from the destination
           (48th Ave.) without any advance notice, and tell you to wait for
           the next train in an unlit neighborhood.
           \_ i was comparing BART to decent rail transit, not MUNI.  neither
              system is really decent, despite being a whole hell of a lot
              better than public transit in most places in this country.
        \_ It's better than anything they have down in L.A.
           \_ exactly...if you're from the west coast of the U.S., you
              probably wouldn't know a working transit system if it bit
              you in the ass.  that someone would even bother comparing
              one shitty pathetic california transit system to another
              illustrates this.
        \_ komiteh@csua is recruiting. please mail resume and references.
           admission is competitive, so please only apply if komiteh if you
           feel you will meet our rigorous selection criteria. -ali.
         \_ Where do I list giving oral sex in my resume;
                skills or objective? --monica l.
                \_ Interests.
                        \-Hobbies --psb
                                \_ Extracurricular activities.
                                   \_ Political activities.
                                      \_ profession
                                        \_ She didn't get paid.
                                           \_ She didn't get laid either.  "No
                                              pay, no lay."
        \_ Ha ha, ours works.  -John
1998/11/13-16 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:14949 Activity:nil
11/12   Couch:  the couch rides again tomorrow night -- lotsa bikes in a
        big fun group, some hauling furniture/friends/doggies..PARTY after
        5:30 PM downtown Berkeley BART, leaves 6PM, party 2295 Shattuck
1998/9/11 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:14575 Activity:very high
9/11    Why do we need a rail line on the new bay bridge "to reduce car flows"?
        Doesn't BART already cross the bay?
        \_Maybe to accommodate Amtrak, freight and other commuter line
        trains? Such a solution would help divert some car and truck flow.
        \_BART's resources are already somewhat maxed out, as any BART
        commuter can tell you.  We're packed like sardines in there during
        peak commute hours.
        \_ They're trying to pack more trains in, but I don't think it
        will work that well.  People still need to enter/exit at stops and
        the trains stop in the tube often already.
        \_ BART is non-standard rail, for one thing.  It's also run
           incompetently and, as noted above, is near maximum train
           capacity already.  A train line over the bridge could, for example,
           hook up with CalTrain's tracks and provide a way to get directly
           to the Peninsula or San Jose from Oakland, for example.  -tom
        \_ BART's train spacing could be much shorter, tho.  And, you would
           have to replace 20%! of the bay bridge traffic, shifting them
           to mass transit, to even break even, which I find highly doubtful.
           \_ if you put a new rail line in, you double the person-capacity
              of the bridge.  If car traffic gets worse, there is impetus
              to use more responsible means of transporation.  -tom
                \_ No, they should provide cars, since that is the most
                 responsible way to get around.  Remember, consumption
                 keeps our economy strong.  Buy stuff.  Work your ass off.
                  eat stuff.
        \_ I wish the new bay bridge had double the lanes as well.  Car's
           rule!  I don't like waiting in line to go to the northern
                \_ Umm, the new bay bridge only goes from oakland to
                   treasure island - what would the point of double the
                   lanes be?  Get to treasure island fast, then wait there
           \_ No, they should have a conveyor belt instead that runs at
                50mph.  That way cars could cross much faster.  And for
                pedestrians they should have a giant catapolt and a net on
                the other side.  Those damn civil engineers don't know
                what they're talking about.
              \_ Me too, but without the net.
           \_ On the side of ludicrousy, there should some mass relocation
              of where EVERYONE lives so 90% of all people are within 5 miles
              of where they work. But I really do want to see the catapult
              idea implemented.
                \_ Better yet, we should build really tall sky scrappers
                   so that way the entire bay area lives within a few
                   blocks of each other.
\        \_ It's for the psycological impact. To get people sitting incars to
            be forced to watch the people in the trains grinning at them as
            they whiz by.
1998/5/26-28 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:14132 Activity:nil
5/25    Intermediate/advanced cyclists; we'll be doing a metric century (100km)
        with a 70km bailout point this Saturday, 5/30, leaving Rockridge BART
                        \_ Wimp!
        at 10:00 AM.  There will be no beginner's ride on this one, but we'll
        have a beginner's route on the Solstice Century ride on 6/20.  Mail
        ride-bike-request for info.
1998/5/19 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:14103 Activity:nil
        THIRD RAIL
1998/4/1-2 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:13885 Activity:nil
3/31    Ride Bike!  There will be another ride this Saturday, 4/4, meeting
        at Rockridge BART at 11:00 AM.  Mail ride-bike-request for more
        information or to be put on the mailing list; you can see the
        planned routes at
        The beginner's route is the easiest we do all year; no cyclist
        is too wimpy!
1998/3/20 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:13845 Activity:nil
3/20    The El Nino Memorial Bike Ride will be tomorrow, Saturday 3/21,
        meeting at Rockridge BART at 11:00 AM.  The first draft of the
        route is at;
        the draft is accurate except for the last paragraph, which will
        change tonight.  Cyclists of all skill levels are welcome.
2022/06/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Transportation:PublicTransit: