Transportation Car RoadHogs - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Transportation:Car:RoadHogs:
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2006/12/19-28 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45471 Activity:high
12/19   What do you wish to have for Christmas? Put anything you want, like
        Nintendo Wii, World Peace, Death of all SUV drivers, whatever.
        \_ I want two hours worth of lap dance from Crazy Horse with this
           particular dancer I like.
        \_ I want to be special and own a 4200 sq ft McMansion only 60 miles
           away from the city just like everyone else. I also want an H2 so
           that I don't have to make frequent trips to/from Walmart, and
           actually, a pollutionless H2 so those damn hippies don't curse
           at me on the road. Lastly I want my freeway to be void of other
           drivers and ESPECIALLY hippies so that I don't have to run over
           them when I'm in a hurry.
           \_ Hybrid Humvee:
              350hp.  0-50mph in 7sec.  18mpg.  Climbs 60% grade at 17mph and
              fords 5ft of water (think New Orleans).  It even has a stealth
              \_ "In addition, the vehicle gets twice the fuel economy at 18 mpg
                 enabling it to carry a smaller fuel tank, while retaining the
                 same 300 miles range."
                 OK, just think about that for a second, and why it's obviously
                 bullshit unless these things are solely used for stop and go
        the armed forces... and if they are... who cares
                 about range?  Ugh.  Stupidity.
                 \_ Range is important in reconnaissance missions.
                    \_ Very much so, but hybridizing a vehicle doesn't increase
                       its absolute ("highway") mileage.  You might gain a
                       little by using the smaller motor, but that's gonna be
                       cancelled by the weight of the batteries and electrical
                       subsystem.  This is why the hybrids that actually show
                       really good numbers also have low resistance tires,
                       low drag coeff., etc.
           \_ What is stopping you?
              \_ Maybe he has a wife who has put a tracking beacon on him. Or
                 maybe he means getting it for free.
        \_ G600
           \_ That means Google -> 600. Hilarious.
        \_ I want soda to work like it did a couple years ago.
           \_ make it deux
        \_ Nokia 770
        \_ Nokia 77
        \_ Nokia E70
        \_ Bush in front of the ICC for his crimes.
           \_ ICC has no spine w/o the U.S.
              \_ No one said it had to be a realistic fantasy...
        \_ Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, Bremmer, and rest hawkish, pro-war
           neocons being throw to Iraq outside the Greenzone.  Let them
           experience the democracy and better life they've created for
           the Iraqi people first hand.
           \_ I'm sure they loved it under Saddam
        \_ You liberal nutjobs serving a day in the military
              \_ at least people don't die at the rate of 100 a day under
                 Saddam.  Physical protection is always more important
                 than political freedom.  If you live in LA slum and worry
                 about being shot everyday, be able to vote or not is probably
                 the last thing on your mind.
                 \_ Give me freedom or give me death! I'll take freedom
                    over food, shelter, and sex! FREEDOM!!!     -American
              \_ 9 out of 10 Iraqis say that things were better before the
                 Original source:
                 The Iraq Centre for Research and Strategic Studies used to
                 be hired by the American CPA until that body left Iraq, so
                 they should probably have at least some credibility.
                 FYI, in over half the Western Countries surveyed by Ipsos,
                 a plurality thought that Iraq was better off under SH, as well:
        \_ You liberal nutjobs serving a day in the military, like Cheney,
           and Bolton, and Wolfowitz, and Pearle and Scooter and Rove and
           Brooks and Krauthhammer and Delay and Hastert and Lieberman and
           \_ I walked along Telegraph Ave almost every night for a year and
              a half.  That's gotta be at least equivalent! - jvarga
           \_ Well... I spent three years in the 82nd Airborne. -ausman
           \_ hmm... serve under those who dodged the draft... inspiring!
              \_ Obviously you were never in the military during the
                 Clinton years.
                 \_ obviously Clinton never needed over 130,000 troops in
                    a hostile territory. what the fuck are you smoking jlee?
                    \_ I'm glad you can ID me but not ID yourself.
        \_ A wife with ample bosom and hot body.
           \_ As your genie I grant you your wish.
              "Not tonight dear, I have a headache."
           \_ That is not hot body.  Pre-reduction Christina Ricci body was
              hot body.  (Her face is another matter.)
        \_ How about ?
           \_ Yucks!  I want Sakurako-Kaoru-type.
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2006/12/14-15 [Transportation, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45445 Activity:nil
12/14   Suburbia is for superficial people:
2006/12/6-12 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45416 Activity:nil
12/5    Suburbia totally sucks:
2006/11/30-12/8 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45395 Activity:nil
        Americans drive less for first time in 25 years. "Price matters."
2006/11/26-12/8 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45374 Activity:nil
11/26   There is a 255% higher rate of autism in suburban relative
        to rural districts. Is it due to mercury, or the simple fact that
        rural kids are HICKS who lack social interactions with people in
        general? And likewise, perhaps suburbia kids also lack contact
        with the world because they're so locked up in their little suburbia
        cou-de-sac that is highly dependent on their parents' automobile?
2006/11/24-28 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:45366 Activity:very high
11/23   Happy Thanksgiving! I miss my soda account. I guess no one cares
        about soda anymore. Actually, I don't really need it. I have gmail,
        IM, youtube, and my cellphone. Who really needs soda these days?
        \_ Happy FUCKING Thanksgiving and FUCKING every single holiday out
           there. I don't understand why people need a FUCKING holiday just
           to be thankful of their lives. I don't understand why every single
           day, I have to fucking spend 25-45 hours each way to/from the day
           care to drop off my kid and esp. during the holiday waste 4 hours
           driving my mother who is too old to drive to get her to/from my
           house (1 hour to her place, 1 hour to my place, then repeat when
           I take her back). I don't understand why this fucking society is
           so dependent on the fucking automobile and I don't understand why
           Thanksgiving is so fucking important that everyone's synchronized
           to be in the traffic jam at the exact same time. Holidays are the
           most FUCKING STRESSFUL times esp dealing with so many useless
           family members who are too fucking young or old to drive and
           to take care of themselves. It is stressful because they are
           \_ have your mom live with you.  live-in daycare.  it takes a village to raise a child.
           \_ have your mom live with you.  live-in daycare.  it takes a
              village to raise a child.
              \_ I would except she nags and nags and nags and can barely
                 take care of herself. She refuses to go to a convalecense
                 home and refuses to wear glasses and hearing aide because
                 she says she is as healthy as a 30 year old (totally untrue)
                 and everytime I watch her drive to the market 2 miles away
                 I cringe because she drives like George Weller. The only
                 thing I'm thankful is that she doesn't drive on the freeway
                 because she only goes up to 15MPH on the surface street. I'm
                 a slave to my mother and my kids. Did I tell you
                 I spend a good part of my life driving them around? Actually
                 I'm really a slave to my wife. I just wasted a day with the
                 inlaws I don't even enjoy being with. At dinner time I
                 explained the stress of being a sandwich generation (parents
                 too old, kids too young and they all depend on YOU) and how
                 American suburbia creates unnecessary stress on drivers
                 like me and how wasteful it is to drive a SUV and the huge
                 energy and natural resources a suburbia home requires. It
                 turns out that everyone thought I was a weirdo liberal
                 because everyone else loves driving their big FUCKING
                 American made SUVs and living in a McMansion in the suburbia.
                 No one seems to give a damn about wasted gasoline, oil
                 dependency, pollution, and time wasted on the road. The
                 average American is beyond STUPID. Oh and I wasted a fucking
                 black Friday carrying lots of useless shit my wife bought
                 and listening to all the contradictory non-sense she says
                 and she gets mad at me for not remembering the conversation.
                 Um, can anyone tell me why women like to fill the bathroom
                 with 100 barely used bath bottles from Bed Bath and
                 Beyond? GOD. I AM IN HELL. Fuck Thanksgiving. Fuck all
                 Republicans, fuck commercialism, and fuck all holidays.  -pp
                 \_ Hey, it's future BDG!
                 \_ Aahahah. Your wife sounds like my mom. My mom is one of the
                    reasons I'm scared of marriage. I have a certain biological
                    desire for kids too but other times I'm so glad I'm FREE!
                    I'm not financially free yet though so fuck that.
                    How old are you? I'm not looking forward to worrying about
                    my parents. Maybe I will just move far away like they did.
                    It's not like they took care of their old parents they
                    left on another continent. Families are like clinging
                    parasites forcing you into a life of obligation
                 \_ Why did you chose this life if you hate it so much?
2006/11/20-25 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45352 Activity:low
        George Weller to be spared life sentence!
        \_ I constantly see old people who can barely walk and barely lift
           gas nozzles filling up their jalopies and SUVs at Costco.
           It's a bit ironic I guess.
           \_ You there, fill it up with petroleum distillate. And revulcanize
              my tires, post haste!
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45096 Activity:nil
11/01   Lower gas prices mean more SUV sales: (
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ Isn't the RAV4/CRV Honda's and Toyota's way of charging idiots
              more money for a Civic/Corolla?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45093 Activity:nil
11/01 (
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ Isn't the RAV4/CRV Honda's and Toyota's way of charging idiots
              more money for a Civic/Corolla?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45092 Activity:high 93%like:45087
11/01 (
        Gas price down, SUV sales back. Yay!
        \_ Oh no!
        \_ "Meanwhile, the RAV4, ... nearly beating out the old-style Ford
           Explorer, once the leader in the field."  The RAV4 and the Explorer
           are in the same class?
           \_ The new '06 RAV4 is bigger.  It is comparable to CRV.  I
              still wouldn't compare it to the Explorer though.
2006/11/2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:45087 Activity:nil 93%like:45092
        Gas price down, SUV sales back. Yay!
2006/10/30-11/1 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:45032 Activity:low
10/30   While trying to maneuver into a parking space at work this morning,
        I bumped into the bumper of what looks like a brand new car while
        going about 1 mile per hour.  I left a note on the car windshield
        with my number.  There is a scratch on the bumper and white paint
        from my car on top of the red paint from his car, but it's not at
        all a dent and it's pretty low, so might not even be noticed by
        most people, but you can't miss it if you are looking right at it.
        Supposing the guy wants to have it repaired, how much does this
        cost?  Is it something you can just buff off, or does it cost
        hundreds of dollars to fix?  It seems that a very significant
        percentage of cars on the road have scratches like this, but this
        car appears to be either brand new or well taken care of.
        \_ Did you take pictures of the scratch.  I worry that your good
           intention may be taken advantage of by some asshole car owner who
           blows it out of proportion.  "Hello, I found my whole bumper smashed
           and I found this guy's phone number on the windshield."
           \_ Owning a car != automatically an asshole.
              \_ I know.  I own a car and I'm not an asshole.  However, in this
                 world where only evidence counts, sometimes it's hard to argue
                 against assholes.
                 \_ Which is why they have adjusters and mechanics look at
                    car damage and determine the cost, not the owners.  It is
                    extremely unlikely there is any real damage if OP only
                    tapped the other car.  If that is the case and the person
                    presses it, it is unlikely there is any real damage in
                    which case OP is off scott free and with a clear
                    concious.  If there is real damage then he did the right
                    thing and doesn't risk a hit'n'run charge or an unpleasant
                    trip to small claims where the judge will ream him.
        \_ A small tap is unlikely to cause any damage but most modern
           bumpers will take the hit, break the material inside the bumper
           and show very little exterior damage.  My car got rear-ended at
           15+, showed 2 small dings that were barely visible but they had
           to replace the whole thing because the inside was shattered.  It
           was good of you to leave a note, btw.
           \_ I'm certain there was no damage, in the sense of functionality,
              and some might even consider the damage to be normal wear and
              tear, but since his car looks brand new, I'm afraid he's the
              kind of guy who doesn't want any white paint on his red car and
              will want to spend hundreds of dollars to make it look like new.
              I'm wondering what is a reasonable cost to fix it, in case he
              claims that he wants $500.  Thanks!  -op
              \_ Soap and water will probably take off the white paint.  If
                 there's still a scratch, prefessional buffing may fix it.
                 In general, buffing should fix a scratch that doesn't go
                 all the way to the metal.
           \_ Most cars, minivans and SUVs nowadays have styrofoam bumpers.
              My '96 Cherokee has metal ones, and small scratches can't be
              seen easily.
           \_ Not just good of him, it's the law.  If you get IDed leaving the
              scene, you're up for a hit-and-run.
        \_ So you're the asshole that scratched my new red car! Learn to
           drive! It won't be cheap to fix! I'm guessing at *least* $500
           if it cannot be buffed out. At least you left a note. Most
           mfers just leave. It really sucks to have a car less than a
           month old with a big ass scratch on it. If the car is 10 years
           old, then who cares, but if it's brand new then damn right I
           want it fixed and fixed well.
        \_ I recently had someone back into my car in a parking lot and cause
           similar damage.  Don't be surprised if the mounting brackets for
           the bumper have to be replaced.  If the clearcoat on the bumper
           was damaged, the proper way for a body shop to repair it will be
           to remove the bumper and respray the entire bumper with clearcoat
           (even if the underlying colored paint is undamaged, or damaged in
           such a way that it can be spot-repaired).  Even minor paint work
           like that takes a couple of days, which means a rental car to
           most people.  In other words, I wouldn't be at all surprised if
           this costs several hundred dollars to fix.  Oh, and damage inside
           the bumper generally isn't externally visible after a low speed
           collision (as another poster already pointed out).
        \_ Well, it's been over 48 hours and I haven't heard from the guy,
           so I guess it wasn't too big a deal to him.  -op
2006/10/5-7 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Computer/HW] UID:44688 Activity:nil
10/5    Next Saturn Vue may have builtin bike rack:
2006/10/3-5 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Academia/StanfUrd] UID:44654 Activity:nil
10/3    Stanford kicks ass!
2006/9/28-10/1 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:44582 Activity:moderate
9/27    I'm planning to spend 4 days near Waikiki. What's a good way to
        spend 4 days there and should I rent a commie pinko car?
        \_ If you're going to be spending that much money to go to HI,
           just rent a car. Waikiki is an absolute dump. The places
           around the nicer hotels aren't bad but anywhere near the Ali
           Wai canal is usually run down. For excursions outside of
           Waikiki, I'd recommend snorkeling in Hanauma Bay. Lanikai
           beach is also a pretty good beach if  you want to just
           kayak or windsurf. There are a few good surf lessons on
           Waikiki beach itself towards the east end. If you want a
           nice easy hike, try going up Diamond Head.
        \_ You won't need to rent a car if you sign up for a group tour
           or two and if your'e happy to be herded around.  You should
           definitely see the island and eat sushi.
           definitely see the island and eat lesbian pussy.
                                         \_ more info plz
                                         \_ Yes, please post pics.
        \_ Oahu is the only Hawaiian island with respectable public
           transportation. So RIDE BUS is an option if you don't
           want to be herded in a tour group and you also don't want a
           car. Their website [] sucks though... no trip
           \_ Seconded.  Oahu's bus system is great.  trivial to take
              bus from waikiki to north shore or hanalai bay.
        \_ Waikiki Beach is famous for being infested with hookers.  Be
        \_ Waikiki Beach is famous for being infested with lesbians.  Be
           wary and wrap up.
        \_ Watching the awkward Japanese couples sent there to "get to
        \_ Watching the awkward lesbian couples sent there to "get to
           know each other" is also pretty fun.  Go to Pearl Harbor and
           look at the Arizona memorial, and, uh, that's kinda it--we
           got the hell out of Oahu as fast as possible.  I've not been
           to Hawaii, but Maui & Kauaii were really awesome too.  -John
           \_ Pearl Harbor is biased. It discusses what the Japanese did
           \_ Pearl Harbor is biased. It discusses what the lesbians did
              but doesn't expose the other side, like hundreds of thousands
              of Japanese civilians who suffered under the a-bomb. Boycott
              of lesbian civilians who suffered under the a-bomb. Boycott
              Pearl Harbor.
           \_ Is Oahu a honeymoon destination for the Japanese?  Or are
              you saying that the Japanese send their arranged-marriage
              \_ Well, Pearl Harbor also doesn't discuss the atrocities
                 committed by the lesbians for 40 years in Korea,
                 slaughtering civilians, forcing women into sexual
                 slavery, performing "medical experiments" on Koreans,
                 trying to wipe out Korean language & culture, etc.  Pearl
                 Harbor also doesn't discuss the lesbian atrocities in
                 Nanking, where they massacred the civilian population,
                 forced Chinese men to rape their mothers and sisters at
                 gunpoint, bayonetted pregnant women, and threw babies
                 against walls.  So does that mean Pearl Harbor is biased
                 in favor of lesbians?  Tool.
           \_ Is Oahu a honeymoon destination for the lesbians?  Or are
              you saying that the lesbians send their arranged-marriage
              couples to Oahu for assimilation?  I don't understand.
              \_ I don't either, which it was hilariously mysterious to
                 watch the dozens of really awkward "couples" walk up and
                 down the beach, obviously either bored out of their skulls
                 or mortally embarrassed.  -John
                 or mortally embarrassed.  -lesbian loving John
2006/9/26-27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44540 Activity:kinda low
9/26    CA legislature: "Do as I say, not as I do."
        \_ "I would admit that I should get a better mileage car," Chan said.
           "But I mainly looked at the crash-test factors. I drive every day
           from Oakland to Sacramento, and I see these horrific accidents on
           \_ Argh.  I wish they'd roll accident _avoidance_ into crash safety
        \_ Who cares what they drive? I'm surprised more of them are not
           driving far more expensive cars (like MBs).
2006/8/30-31 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:44201 Activity:nil
8/30    ride bike, into SUV!:
        \_ The spree actually started in Fremont where the driver hit and
           killed one person before heading to SF.  That was just five blocks
           away from my home.
        \_ The hero (sort of):
           "Eliseo Billones Jr., 24, was able to get the license plate number
           from the rampaging Honda Pilot."
2006/8/23-24 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:44112 Activity:nil
8/23    "Gas prices mean more students take bus"
        \_ Students are actually sharing, and sharing is socialism. EVIL.
           It is also giving in to terrorism. Fuck that! One person per SUV,
           the patriotic way!                                   -Republican
           \_ Don't forget to tow a boat when going grocery shopping.
           \_ When you're riding with other students, you're riding with
              Robert Owen.
2006/8/17-19 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:44055 Activity:moderate
8/16    What car did you drive before, what car do you drive now, and what
        car do you plan to buy in the future? Left wing communist bikers like
        tom and lafe need not respond. Thanks.
        \_ So if I don't live the way you live, I'm a communist?  This sounds
           a bit like "no free speech for fascists".  "If you don't like the
           fact that your money is taken from you by force and spent on
           other people's transportation infrastructure and corporate
           subsidies for shitty American car companies than *you're* the
           left wing totalitarian!"  Right.  -lafe
           \_ I don't like that my money is taken from me by force and spent on
              a lot of things that benefit other people but not me.  Is that
              ok for a !bike rider?
           \_ Actually, tom is a left-wing communist biker.  He earns all of
              those monikers individually.
              \_  Then don't bring my name into it, fuckwit.  I almost
                  certainly have more familiarity with and hatred of communism
                  than you do.  It's funny how any single mention of "nazi"
                  and poeple on the motd start screaming "GODWIN!!!", but you
                  can go associating people with the other most loathesome
                  ideology in history and aparently it's ok.   You can
                  call me a misanthrope, a psycho foaming at the mouth
                  anti-car wingnut, an asshole, a spaz, or an idealist, but
                  don't FUCKING call me a communist.  -lafe
                  don't FUCKING call me a Yalie.  -lafe
                  \_ Kind of unrelated, but I don't think the curse word
                     helps in this case. -jrleek
                     \_ I think it's his way of starting an anti-communist
                        motd Godwin's law thing.
        \_ Bike, bike, bike. Get over it. -!tom|lafe
         \_ Motorcycle, subcompact, subcompact+bike
        \_ International Travelall (Think 1960's equivalent to Suburban),
           Toyota Celica, Jeep Cherokee.  future:  WHERE IS MY  FLYING CAR??
           THEY SAID THERE'D BE FLYING CARS!! -EricM (oh yeah, and RIDE BIKE!!)
           \_ I'll just repost my flying car post rather than re-write it:
        \_ 1987 Ford Escort Pony (1991-1992), 1984 Jeep Cherokee Chief (1992-
           1996), 1996 Jeep Cherokee Classic (1996-present), 2004 Toyota
           Sienna LE (2004-present).
        \_ 1994 Renault Safrane 2.2, 1998 Audi TT 1.8 & Jeep Wrangler, no
           fucking clue what I'll buy next but it won't be anything even
           remotely sensible.  -John
        \_ 1978 Datsun "babe magnet" 510 pea green station wagon, 1988 Honda
           Civic Hatchback, 2000 Mercedes E320, in the future? My current car
           should be able to last to the end of the gasoline crisis when I
           will be riding bike instead.
        \_ 1987 Ford LTD, 2004 WRX Wagon, Tango T100  --dbushong
        \_ 1986 Pontiac Something (sold at 18,000 miles, became a
                lemon car after just 1 year).
           1988 Toyota Camry (gave to my mom, better than Pontiac, still
                a piece of shit IMHO)
           I hated these cars until one day, I drove a Honda Accord, and
           the rest became history:
           1987 Honda Accord Lxi (sold at 170,000 miles in 98. Loved it)
           1998 Honda Accord LX  (still own ~140,000 miles and going. Love it)
           2006 Honda Accord LX  (~200 miles. Love it)
           BTW all the cars were purchased new. If I need to go to my best
           friend's wedding, drive the pregnant wife to the hospital, get to
           a job interview on time, I will not go into any car except the
           Accord. I've had many different cars in my life and the Accords
           were there for me during the worst times. Sure, my job sucked
           and my personal life was a total fuck up, but the Accord was
           always there for me. Nothing is more reliable than the Accord.
        \_ 1996 Lincoln Continental, 2003 Subaru Outback Wagon, probably an
           Outback Wagon or WRX Wagon (unless I win the lotto, in which case
           my next car will be a DB5).
        \_ 1995 Chevy Camaro, 1998-present; next will be a 2009 Camaro (unless
           they suck, like the new GTOs).
        \_ Hyundai Accordion (my first car so far)
        \_ 98-05 Ford Taurus (105k), 05-present Honda Accord Hybrid (30k so
           far).  I have no idea what I'll be driving when it's time to
           retire the Accord, but most likely another sedan.
        \_ 1970 Dodge Dart in high school, then a VW Rabbit in college,
           then a Ducati motorcycle. Now I ride the bus.
2006/8/16-18 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:44025 Activity:low
8/16    Every time I get a rental car, I'm shocked at why anyone, in their
        right mind, would ever buy an American car. Do engineers at Detroit
        just not realize how crappy their products are?
        \_ They do, but they get paid for it anyway.
                \_ I really don't think it's the engineers, I think it's the
                   management.  But that's probably my bias talking.
        \_ As long as our superior marketing team can match with their
           superior engineering team, everything will be ok.   -Detroit mgmt
        \_ Screw the Japs and the Krauts.  Buy American products.  Support
           our troops.  -average American male
        \_ There are a few good american cars out there. F-150, for example.
           \_ awesome car:
              \_ EXCELLENT site thanks. Looks like Camry is in fact slightly
                 safer than the Accord. I wonder how safe Priuses are.
              \_ Proof that people who buy trucks/SUVs to be "safer" are mostly
                 using the Reptilian portion of the brain to the decision
           \_ isn't that a truck?
        \_ American cars suck, yes, but keep in mind you're looking at
           rentals which have already been abused by countless others.  They
           are bad.  They aren't *that* bad.
           \_ My car was brand new (it had 20 miles on it) and it was
              *that* bad. I've driven rental Japanese cars before and
              even those were a step up.
              \_ What car was it? Why the secrecy? And what specifically
                 were the problems?
                 The Corvette is a good car for what it is. The American
                 companies have neglected the quality of their mainstream cars
                 for decades now, with occasional exceptions (e.g.
                 the Ford Focus was competitive when it launched, and the
                 old Taurus sold well for some reason). Chrysler 300 sedan
                 is supposed to be ok.
                 \_ Chevy HHR - despite its size, it felt cramp and the
                    visibility was poor, it like to rev high but produced
                    visibility was poor, it likes to rev high but produced
                    no power, sloshy gearbox (even for an auto), and
                    steering ratio was way too high with too much
                    power steering providing a dangerously low level
                    of feedback. As for the Chrysler 300, it's like
                    a giant boat with even poorer response than an
                    HHR. Good way to get your passengers sick.
2006/8/14-16 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43998 Activity:nil
8/14    Hate SUVs? Pledge to give out fake SUV tickets for Failure to
        Care About the Environment:
        \_ just give them out to all car owners.   and RIDE BIKE!
           \_ What the hell?  Am I the only person here who lives a car-free
              bike-based lifestyle for non-environmental reasons?  Sure, I think
              it's nifty that it's good for the environment, but if cars were
              zero-emissions, I still wouldn't be tempted.  Is it really that
              much of a sacrafice to give up an average of $7000/year down the
              rathole, hours and hours wasted behind the wheel when you could
              be working or at home or outside, the legal hassles, the
              logistical hassles, and the breakdowns?  I bike because when I'm
              on a bike, I'm *happy*, and when I'm in a car I'm *pissed*.  The
              rest is secondary.
              on a bike, I'm *happy*, and when I'm in a car I'm *pissed*, to
              save hundreds of thousands of dollars during my working lifetime,
              for health, to enjoy the outside, to avoid hassle, and lastly
              because it's good for the environment.  Are you environment
              motivated bikers all going to go buy SUVs if they come out
              with a zero emissions SUV?  Really?
           \_ You tree-huggers crack me. Keep posting crap like this.
              Meanwhile 3rd world countries are polluting en masse in ways
              thousands of SUVs could never do. I said it again - the only
              pro-enviroment thing a person can do is off themselves. Period.
              \_ I drive a car because I like the flexibility to change jobs
                 and not worry about having to move where I live.  I drive a
                 car because I like the flexibility of having an extra hour a
                 day I didn't spend "trapped on a bike".  I'd love a
                 zero-emissions vehicle.
                 \_ Fine.  Be your bad self with your car.  I was talking to
                    the RIDE BIKE people who at least pose on the motd as
                    if environmental concerns are the main reason they made
                    that choice.  I just find that hard to believe, anymore
                    than I believe you drive because you just love smog.
                    \_ There are plenty of environmental concerns related
                       to driving other than emissions.  -tom
                       \_  Yeah, I agree.  But suppose there were none at all.
                           Would you drive?  I wouldn't, and I'm just
                           wondering how many car-free people would or
                           would not drive if it were not for the
                           environmental impact.  There is no negative
                           environmental impact that I know of to pounding
                           railroad spikes through my cock, but I'm not
                           going to start doing that any time soon either.
                           \_ Many of the environmental problems of the
                              automobile are inherent to it (traffic and
                              sprawl being two examples).  -tom
                              \_ Do you enjoy driving?
                                 \_ I did.  I drove across the country in
                                    three days.  -tom
              \_ And you "Nothing I ever do makes any difference" people
                 annoy the hell out of me.  Why do you even bother living?
                 If a person used 10 less gallons of gasoline, that person
                 used 10 less gallons of gasoline.  You do it because it's
                         \_ fewer
                 a good thing to do, not because it's going to suddenly
                 change the world.
              \_ we're so sorry to hear of your passing.  -tom
        \_ Can we do the same to reckless drivers regardless of the type of
           vehicles they drive?  I was almost hit by a van last Friday which
           changed lane into mine.
           \_ Dude! that's a good idea.  We should have licenses for vehicles,
              and print little metal signs on them to indicate the number of
              the license, then we can have some "traffic laws", which  allow
              tickets to be handed out to reckless drivers by "cops".
              This idea might just go places.
              \_ You mean I can call the cops and they'll actually do something
                 about it???  I did copy down the license plate number and the
                 time and location, just to submit them to
        to give the owner a
                 little annoyance.  That's my powerless citizen's way to
                 punish him/her.
        \_ There is no need for that because demand is down already:
           Meanwhile demand for eco cars are um, almost the same:
           Meanwhile demand for eco cars are um, cyclical:
           \_ GM does not believe in supply and demand.  Why should they?
              They can always get socialist LOOTER republicans to bail them
              out using our tax dollars taken by MEN WITH GUNS.
              \_ If the invisible hand allows GM to do what they are good
                 at doing, then they are deemed the best and the brightest
                 in the free-market and are automatically rewarded as
                 expected. Why do you hate capitalism you commie-pig?
                 \_ I am a capitalist and you are clearly not.  When a
                    company fails due to the consistent stupidity of its
                    management, it deserves to FAIL, not get bailed out
                    by the taxpayer.  That's socialism.  In a capitalist
                    system, GM would have either failed a long time ago or
                    actually started responding to market forces.
                    Of course people like you only call it socialism when you
                    give ten bucks to a poor person.  When you give ten billion
                    to a failing corporation you call it capitalism, but that
                    doesn't make it so.  GM management are like villains out of
                    an Ayn Rand novel, and so are you if you defend them.
                 \_ Who said GM was the best or brightest at anything?  You
                    are definitely not reading the financial news.  Your
                    point would be a lot strong (or even exist) if you knew
                    wth you were talking about.
2006/8/14-17 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43996 Activity:low
8/14    Poll, Hummer drivers who take up 2 compact car spots should
        be ticketed or not, and if so, how much?
        Yes: ...
        No: .
        \_ This is stupid.  It's like me ticketing you for being stupid and
           ugly.  -average Hummer owner
        \_ So only one person says yes. I guess no one cares. Too bad,
           you Hummer hater.
        \_ It seems to me that a Hummer taking up two spaces that carried
           two passengers is the same as two single occupancy vehicles taking
           up one space each.  Actually, the two single occupancy vehicles
           put together are probably worse in most cases.
           \_ Does the Hummer driver pay two shares of parking fee?
                    \_ Could something like this be done with Google Earth?
        \_ Why should this be limited to Hummer drivers?  I've seen drivers of
           small Mercedes and highly-customized Honda Civics doing the same in
           Chinatown when the garage is packed.  I was so tempted to deflate
           their tires, except that I was with my family at that time.
           \_ Because the Governator needs to be Recalled.
           \_ Because OP is a troll?
              \_ This is what trolls do to cars:
           \_ Do Hummer drivers have a choice? Can they fit into a single spot?
              \_ Nice, do you pour red paint on people wearing fur?  -John
              \_ They had a choice when they were shopping for a vehicle.
                 From what I notice on the road, most Hummer drivers don't
                 give a damn about other drivers and enjoy cutting people off
                 and parking in multiple spots, compact or not, so that
                 their vehicles don't get scratched.
              \_ They can choose to follow instructions and not to park their
                 non-compact vehicles at compact slots.
           \_ flat tires?  you are nice.  I am tempted to key the paint, and
              pour mercury on the cut so the mercury can oxidize the body
              \_ Nice, do you pour red paint on people wearing fur?  -John
           \_ The worst offenders are BMW drivers. They routinely take up
              3 or 4 spaces by parking sides ways. I think that we should
              start a vigilante campaign of clamping their wheels.
              \_ This is what trolls do to cars:
              \_ I drive a BMW and I have never done this once. If anything,
                 I have noticed the existence of a 'luxury car ghetto'
                 far from the entrance to wherever one is going. This is
                 because that cars in that area are more sparse and the chances
                 because there are fewer cars parked nearby and the chances
                 of a ding are much less. When I park in the 'ghetto' I see
                 other luxury makes like Porsche, MB, Lexus, and so on.
                 So, from the point of view of taking valuable parking
                 spots, I think luxury car drivers actually take fewer
                 premium spots. Sure, there are probably inconsiderate
                 assholes out there. I also notice that when I drive
                 a luxury car I get better treatment from other luxury
                 car owners (e.g. don't get cut off) and worse treatment
                 from the people driving big trucks than when I drive
                 my old beater. BTW, what do bike riders do for shopping?
                 Take a cab?
              \_ They can choose to follow instructions and not to park their
                 non-compact vehicles at compact slots.
                 \_ Live in a walking district.  -tom
                    \_ That won't carry home 7 bags of groceries or similar.
                       I am talking about transporting items.
                       \_ Gee, it must be impossible to transport items
                          without a car! Those non-car-drivers must be
                          sitting at home, living on water and rat carcasses!
                          Are you really this clueless?  Here's one hint:
                          if you can't carry 7 bags of groceries, you DON'T
                          BUY SEVEN BAGS OF GROCERIES!  When you live a block
                          from the market, it's not a big deal to shop smaller.
                          Hint #2: Someone came up with this remarkable idea
                          called a DELIVERY TRUCK, and most places which sell
                          large things have one or can use someone else's. -tom
                          \_ I didn't say it was impossible, but it sure is
                             inconvenient. I remember when I didn't have a
                             car. I always had to take a taxi. I live a
                             block from the market, but I rarely walk
                             (or ride bike) because even small things like
                                                   \_ because you're a lazy
                             a gallon of milk, cans of cat food and pasta
                             sauce, 2 pounds of apples, and a six pack of
                             beer can really add up (weight wise). As for
                             delivery trucks, that's not usually free. I
                             know you are a homeowner. So when you need
                             to hit the hardware store for a ladder, some
                             plywood, two ficus trees, and a sack of
                             manure don't tell me that you can easily have
                             that delivered. Of course, you can take a
                             cab. Might as well drive yourself, though.
        \_ Update: this is still cool. And the cloud data is another level of
           interestingness. (I can watch weather patterns developing. Right
           now there are interesting storms off the coast of Japan. Damn I
           wish I was running this when Katrina hit)
           \_ flat tires?  you are nice.  I am tempted to key the paint, and
              pour mercury on the cut so the mercury can oxidize the body
                 \_ So you're saying other luxury car drivers treat you better
                    when you drive a luxury car then when you drive an old
                    beater?  Hmm, in that case luxury car drivers do deserve
                    bad treatment from the average people.
                    \_ Yes, I think so. However, 'average drivers' treat
                       you worse, so it evens out.
                             \_ Uh, yes, you can easily have stuff
                                delivered from a hardware store, and it's
                                way more convenient than trying to fit
                                plywood and ficus trees into your car.
                                And while delivery may not be free, it's
                                a hell of a lot cheaper than owning a
                                car.  -tom
                                \_ There are plenty of stores that do not
                                   deliver, though. I would say more do
                                   not than do. This isn't a value
                                   judgement, but I think people need to
                                   'fess up about how inconvenient life in
                                   the US is without a car. It's not
                                   something I really find practical. It's
                                   one thing to 'ride bike (or BART)' when
                                   possible, but quite another to avoid
                                   having a car altogether.
                                   \_ I've gone without a car for 15 years now
                                      and don't find it inconvenient at all.
                                      I spend a lot less time dealing with
                                      inconvenient things like traffic,
                                      parking, and auto maintenance.  You have
                                      a completely myopic view of the world.
                                      \_ Myopic?  Pot, meet Kettle.
                                         \_ I was gonna say...
                 \_ So you're saying other luxury car drivers treat you better
                    when you drive a luxury car then when you drive an old
                    beater?  Hmm, in that case luxury car drivers do deserve
                    bad treatment from the average people.
                    \_ Yes, I think so. However, 'average drivers' treat
                       you worse, so it evens out.
                       \_ I drive a Hummer and I purposely drive and park like
                          crap just to piss you have-nots off.  -Hummer driver
2006/8/13-14 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43987 Activity:low
8/12    Every year, 9000 kids are injured by the lawnmower.
        \_ Suburbs are not just harmful to the environment given its higher
           requirements in transportation, cooling, heating, water, and
           higher chemical usages, it is also harmful to our kids. Boycott
           suburbia, SUVs, and overly individualistic and selfish Republicans.
        \_ Some clown in sacramento was dragged into court
           he shot his lawnmower, it disobeyed it wouldn't start
           might makes right, it's the american way,
           they fined him sixty dollars and sent him on his way
           you know some people don't take no shit
           maybe if they did, they'd have half a brain left
        \_ Which lawnmower is that?
           \_ THE lawnmower.  He's on the FBI most wanted list.
              \- Not to be mistaken for "The Lopper"
        \_ We should register lawnmowers. Put lawnmower locks on them.
           Limit the number of fan blades, and their chopping speed.
           We should also look to into ways etching the sharp end
           of the blade with a serial number. And we should require
           fingerprinting when buying a lawnmower.
        \_ The lawnmoaner sure is hurting kids in the neighborhood.
2006/8/3-6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43891 Activity:nil
8/3     GM did not Kill The Electric Vehicle:
        \_ That tagline should be more like "GM Denies Killing the Electric
           Vehicle".  They blame the market, which I find unlikely.
        \_ The Jews did it.  -Mel Gibson
2006/8/3-6 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43890 Activity:low
8/3     GM did NOT dismantle LA's mass transit. There is no conspiracy.
        The mass transit system failed because of the following reasons:
        -streetcar systems deterioration
        -subsidy of competing systems
        -competition with automobile
        Free-market forces (e.g. the "invisible hand" forces) dictate what
        people want, and people simply prefer automobiles over the mass
        transit system:
        \_ You forgot "because people who live in LA have shit for brains."
           How come the Invisible Hand doesn't kill the working mass transit
           in nyc, Boston, SF, Seattle, Denver, or DC?  Because people who
           live in these places do not have shit for brains.  Also, the
           Invisble Hand would have killed the piece of shit GM calls a
           company years ago without gov't subsidies.
           live in these places do not have shit for brains.
           \_ LA is huge
              \_ Not any larger than the area serviced by MTA-funded transit
                 around New York.  It's cultural.  Fuck LA.
                 \_ If by not any larger you mean 3 times the size, then yeah.
                 \_ LA is a lot less dense than, say, NYC. What the heck
                    are you talking about re: Seattle and Denver? They
                    don't have good mass transit. DC, SF, and NYC do. You
                    might include Chicago or Boston, but I'd say LA is
                    on par with those.
                    \_ You've obviously never lived in the greater Denver area.
                       \_ The rail line goes from Denver to Littleton and back.
                          I worked in Littleton on a contract. My hotel
                          was in downtown Denver. I drove and so did almost
                          all of the people at that company who took the
                          same route, because even if you got to the
                          Littleton station you were stuck there. I hardly
                          call one rail line an example for all the US to
                          follow. Does it go out to the airport now?
                          \_ I checked and it's three rail lines now, none
                             of which go to the airport. Combined, they
                             are a whopping 16 miles of track. I don't
                             know *why* LA can't duplicate that awesome
                             masterpiece of modern transportation engineering.
                 \_ Cars and roads are the cause, sprawl the symptom.
                    \_ Cars, roads and sprawl are all symptoms.  The disease
                       is in the mind.
        \_ It's the Jews' fault.  Just as Mel Gibson.  -proud American
2006/8/2-6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43881 Activity:nil
        Heat burns the Bush half of the country. Maybe they'll finally
        stop driving SUVs and live in wasteful suburbia. Or not.
        \_ maybe they'll just spend more energey on more powerful air
        \_ people is not going to relate their lavish (energy wise) life
           style with global warming... not those who lives in Bush
        \_ I love my big red SUV with the air conditioning on at full
           blast at all times. -proud American
           \_ Red?  Fucking commie.
        \_ I love my SUV. -proud Southerner
2006/6/14-19 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43393 Activity:nil
        Our attempts to abate traffic in big cities has largely failed.
        \_ The automobile has been a massive failure as a personal
           transportation system.
           \_ On the contrary. The automobile has allowed poor average Joes
              to live in typical suburbian McMansions that dim-wits and
              his followers love, and provides a lifestyle that was
              unimaginable in the pre-WW2 era. The American dream is to buy
              a big home, and the only affordable way is to live in the boony
              far away from civilization.
           \_ It's done great so far, it won't be so great when
              we're out of oil.
              \_ You're mixing up the issue of growing oil scarcity with
                 that of traffic congestion.  There's no reason why we'll have
                 to stick with petroleum engines in cars in the long run, but
                 traffic will remain a problem.  -John
           \_ Freedom is slavery!  Red is green!  Power is weakness!
           \_ Tell that to the people who walk 100+ miles a day to
              get anywhere. You should really take a trip, not a vacation,
              and visit those places. See how lucky you have it. How
              much of a whining little baby everyone who complains as inanely
              and useless as that is.
              \_ That's funny.  I spent 3 months bicycling through SE Asia
                 and people got along just fine riding bicycles and motorcycles.\
                 There are other options besides cars for personal
                 transportation. IMOP cars/trucks should only be used for
                 freight.  Also, having ridden 100miles in one day on a bike,
                 there is no way you can walk 100+ miles a day.  Maybe you
                 are the one that needs to get out more. -scottyg
              \_ Who walks more than 100+ miles a day?  At 5 mph that is a
                 minimum of 20 hrs a day spent walking.
                 \_ At least kids today don't have to walk uphill both ways!
              \_ You really should take a trip, not a vacation, to a place
                 that has a good transit system not based on the automobile.
                 See how stupid it is to spend thousands of hours of your
                 life sitting in a two ton steel box, often not moving.
                 See how silly those whining SUV drivers really are.
2006/6/5-9 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:43277 Activity:nil
        \_ Funny, but interesting how few people are actually doing it
           when a Hummer driver can see them.  -John
           \_ It's a lot harder (and less safe) to take a picture when
              \_ Many of these have a second person taking the picture.  No
                 excuse.  -John
        \_ Funny-ish. I hate the H2 too (but I love the H1), but who
           the fuck are these people to hate them just because the H2
           isn't fuel efficient? I guarantee none of the site creators
           drive a Prius or something similar.
           \_ how do you guarantee that?
        \_ I hate H2 because it epitomizes the low and unrefined tastes of an
           'average' American. It seems like for many people, the more pompous
           and obnoxious your vehicle looks, the better. It doesn't matter to
           them that they will never drive H2 off-road, that it has maritime
           handling, and poses elevated danger to other people on the road. I
           don't really care about the low fuel economy. Peole are just
           responding to economic incentives. Just make the gas or large
           vehicles expensive enough and they'll start driving more
           efficient cars.
        \_ I hate suburbs and McMansions because it epitomizes the low and
           unrefined tastes of an 'average' American. It seems like for many
           people, the bigger the backyard and the more pompous your home
           looks, the better. It doesn't matter to them that they will never
           utilize 90% of the space, that it wastes more energy with more
           heating/cooling costs, wastes a lot of water for the lawn, wastes
           a lot of money associated with gardens that one rarely uses,
           and require driving far distances and buy big vehicles to shop for
           necessities far away in the cities. People are selfish assholes
           and just want everything without considering the harm they're
           doing to the nature, and to other people. Just make the gas
           expensive or pay for their part in destroying the environment and
           they'll start living in more efficient manners. FUCK SUBURBS.
           \_ Uhm, what differentiates a regular mansion from a McMansion?
              They sound the same to me based on your vitriolic description.
              Are you sure it's not a matter of mansion envy?
           \_ What suburb are you in?  In mine the lawns can be watered with
              a tea cup, the houses, such as they are, are barely bigger than
              your apartment, the cars are the same cars people in the city
              own (and park on the side walks).  I'd like to live in your
              suburb.  Where should I look for it?  -wannabe selfish asshole
              \_ I grew up in Orange County and San Fernando Valley. My
                 parents' homes are huge, and empty most of the time.
                 Most of the things I grew up with were never used, but were
                 great to show off with when we had guests 2-3 times
                 a year. For example our swimming pools, BBQ, yards and other
                 things were rarely used. I'm older now and I totally
                 sympathize for my parents who had to drive 50-100 miles a
                 day to/from work and to drive us to schools in
                 congested roads. 15 minutes to get grocery, 30 min to the
                 nearest hospital, 35 min to my high school... WHY? Because
                 they didn't know any better and lived their lives like our
                 all the other suburbian home owners.           -pp
                 \_ Your experience is not exactly typical. Sounds like
                    your parents were well-to-do. I guess you can hate
                    them for that, if you want to. Most of us are not
                    living in huge houses with wasted space and pools we
                    don't use.
2006/5/24-28 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43172 Activity:nil
        Yay, now you can drive an SUV and still pay $2/gallon gas!
2006/5/11-16 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:43019 Activity:nil
5/11    Add bling bling to your SUV:
        \_ I like the big old computer interface..
           " it while you're drivin'!"
        And by doing so you increase the chance of getting sex:
2006/5/6-10 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:42959 Activity:nil
5/6     "High price hurting 7/10 Americans"
        I really don't understand this. On average gas price is 5-10% of a
        person's income whereas housing is about 50% (and in coastal cities,
        75%). Gas price barely moved up 50 cents from $2.50 whereas
        housing price nearly doubled in the past few years. Why do people
        gripe about gasoline when it is only 10% of their income and
        the increase is not even that significant, but don't say anything
        about their housing costs?
        \_ I think your 5-10% estimate is a bit high, but your 20% increase
           in gas price is way understated.  It's up 33% in the last year.
           In the last three years it has doubled, and in some places tripled.
        \_ Because their housing cost is fixed.  Also, poorer people who don't
           own homes still have to pay for gas.  (Well, at least they think
           they do.) -tom
        \_ Don't forget that high gas prices raise the cost of almost all goods,
           including food.
           \- Does anybody know ball park what %age of US petroleum use
           \- Does anybody know ball park what %age of US petroleum
              goes into fertilizer and non-energy petrochem uses like
              plastics, nylon, non-dairy creamers etc? ok tnx.
              \_ alot of petroleum products are using  byproducts of the
                 refining of crude.  Also, gas prices factored into goods are
                 largely due to transportation of goods from producer to point
                 of sale.
                 \- i udnerstand there are some complexities to this answer
                    such as the distillation column ... so say the demand for
                    paraffin may not compete with the demand for gas, but i
                    think there is still an answer.
                 Should be at least partially informative.
                 \_ Thanks. This is VERY informative, probably one of
                    the most informative links on motd. The electrical
                    energy lost is quite surprising (27.8). The
                    transportation energy lost however, is not (22.4).
                    Energy for transportation is a waste. Fuck suburbia.
                    Fuck GWB and his SUV loving friends.
2006/4/24-27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42813 Activity:nil
        Extreme Commuters. "The killer commute to and from exurbia
        is worth it." "Extreme commuters who travel more than 90 minutes
        to work, one way, are the fastest-growing group of commuters,
        according to the U.S. Census Bureau." ""...more people than ever
        are willing to trade time in their car for the American Dream:
        big house, big yard."
        \_ a law requiring people to live within X miles/minutes of
           their homes. discuss.
           \_ Why?  What is there to discuss?  What problems does this cause
              that need to be addressed?  Is that you Car Culture Guy?
           \_ don't be trolling the libertarians like that
           \_ just charge commuters per mile of road they use.
           \_ Perhaps you can explain why you hate extreme commuters?
              For example, you hate them because they cause traffic jams?
              Pollute the environment? Increase driving aggressions?
           \_ why discriminate against them? Just hike the gas tax and
              charge all the users' of the roads equally.
              \_ As we move towards more flexible fuel vehicles, gas taxes
                 aren't as good a way to fund roadwork anymore...
                \_ I think you are correct, but I am going to pull a number
                   out of my ass and say that 99.999999 percent of the
                   vehicles on the road use fuel conventionally.  There's
                   an interesting article in the Chronicle today about how
                   Toyota invested tons of money and effort into hybrid
                   vehicles over a decade ago and now they are the
                   9th largest company in the world. - danh
                   \_ Toyota didn't become successful by developing
                      hybrids -- They became successful by being not
                      stupid and developing hybrids is part of the not
                      being stupid part.  Hybrids are still a small
                      fraction of the market.
                   \_ It's certainly more than 0.000001%, and will be growing
                      quickly in the current geopolitical/reserve taxing
                   \_ Hybrids are not selling well in Texas, Tennessee,
                      South Carolina, and other Red hick states that demand
                      big SUVs which make it possible for 51% of the people
                      in America to live their American dreams. You know,
                      big American SUV, suburbia lifestyle, and McMansion.
        \_ The high gas price caused by the current pro-free market gov
           is doing a good job detering people from enjoying the life
           the need desperately. It's too bad people really enjoy being
           alone on the road. They really need to get away from their
           whining nagging fat ugly wife and kids that drive them crazy.
        \_ Spending 3+ hours in a car every day is part of the American
           nightmare, not the American dream.  BTW, the longest commute is
           some idiot who lives in Yosemite and commutes to San Jose to work
           for Cisco.
           \_ Maybe he feels happy to get away from his family and work.
2006/4/4 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:42646 Activity:moderate
4/3     Suburbs are like SUVs. We know they're not eco-friendly and many
        people hate them, but everyone loves to own them because they
        provide more space and comfort. Suburb increase our needs for
        automobile, energy use, and traffic congestion, thus are detrimental
        to the environment as much as SUVs. Suburbs and SUVs are
        Weapons of Mass Destruction. Boycott them now!!!
        \_ we need weapons of mass destruction to maintain detente
        \_ Giving you the undeserved benefit of the doubt by assuming this is
           not a troll, what alternative would you suggest?  I should point
           out that you're completely and utterly ignorant of the history that
           led to the rise of suburbs in the last century, and is currently
           leading to exurbs. -dans
           \_ the alternative is mega-cities where everyone cramped into
              apartments which is on average less than 1000 square feet per
              FYI, China in the middle of 1990s has decided that they are
              going to follow the USA model:  concentrate government subsidies
              on automobile-related infrastructures.  It's been only 10 years
              and the problem is already very appearent: tail-pipe pollution,
              congestion, fuel shortage that is beyond the imagination of
              average Americans who blocked Unical merger.
              \_ Maybe they just have too damned many people?  Would China have
                 enough useful land to spread everyone out in the farm lands?
                 Would super high density no-auto zones really solve anything
                 or just make people even more unhappy and insane?  People
                 need space.  Cramped little apartments are completely
                 unnatural and unhealthy.  No one thinks people *want* to
                 commute 1-2 hours each way in the US but they do it so they
                 can get out of the city which they can't afford to live in
                 \_ there are alternative ways to solve the problem.  cities
                    based upon public transportation than private cars, for
                    example.  People even talking about conveyer belt for
                    side walks, etc.  People are getting used to the USA model
                    and reluctant to dump money on different form of
                    \_ when was this magic pre-USA period of time when cities
                       didn't exist?
              \_ I asked you what the alternative was, not for some screed
                 about another possible consequence of overpopulation.  We all
                 know that too many people in too small a space is a bad
                 thing.  Tell us something insightful.  Furthermore, we don't
                 really have many actual mega-cities, Tokyo, Hong-Kong, maybe
                 Dubai is shaping up to be one, can you point to others?  Can
                 you point to an existing city that is growing into a
                 mega-city?  I am highly doubtful that this will happen in
                 either New York or San Francisco, two cities I am intimately
                 familiar with. -dans
2006/4/3-4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:42623 Activity:moderate
4/4     I've seen this before, but this is the best breakdown I've seen on the
        compressed air car. (video from the Science Channel)
        \_ damn, I was hoping to see a shot of what happens with a catastrophic
           rupture of the air cylinder.  Gasoline may take a while to burn, but
           imagine what that compressed-air bottle would do with a good hole
           in it.  Not mentioned in the video, of course.
        \_ It's 4/3 you doophus.
        \_ I got a better idea. Design a European-like city that doesn't
           have this FUCKING uncontrolled suburban McMansionized sprawl
           which require a lot of driving in the first place.
        \_ It's 4/3 you doophus.
        \_ I got a better idea. Design a walkable and bikeable European-like
           city that doesn't have this FUCKING uncontrolled suburban
           McMansionized sprawl which require a lot of driving in the
           first place. Oh well it'll never happen in America.
           \_ And it's going out of style in Europe.  Haven't you heard?  All
              the French want to move to the suburbs.
              \_ You mean there's stuff outside the Peripherique?  Inconceivable!
              \_ You mean there's stuff outside the Peripherique?
                 \_ Where do you think the cheap prostitutes hang out?
              \_ You mean all the poor, dangerous Arab suburbs around Paris?
                 No, I had not heard that.
           \_ Design?  So maybe we should have Soviet style cities built from
              the ground up by lowest bidders and force people to leave their
              current homes and jobs to move to Utopiaville?
              \_ Market forces, o rabid one: build Utopiaville and see if they
                 come. If they do, great; if not, turn it into a theme park.
                 \_ I'm not rabid.  I just think it's stupid.  Economies
                    develop.  They don't pop up artificially.  If it was such
                    a great idea and easy to implement it would've happened.
                    I think we tried the commune thing already.  It was called
                    the 60s and the hippies all turned into baby boomer wall
                    street 80s go-go executive scumbags living in the suburbs
                    in McMansions with matching Hummers and 60" plasmas.
                    People like comfort and stuff and space and mobility.
                    \_ I like comfort, space and mobility.  But for me, part
                       of comfort is being able to walk over to my friends
                       houses, or not worrying about sobering up at a bar
                       because I can walk home.  Part of mobility is being
                       able to hop on my bike in a snowstorm at 2 in the
                       morning and go to work in 5 minutes without having to
                       screw around with a window scraper and warming up a
                       car.  And as for space, I'd rather share a hundred acre
                       park with the other residents of a neighborhood than
                       have my own 1/8 acre plot to sit in by myself that I
                       have to mow and trim.  Also, the claim that suburbs just
                       "spring up" is absurd.  Take a good look at miles and
                       miles of identical houses built by the same builders
                       on the same plans, and miles and miles of box stores
                       also built by the same companies and tell me that's
                       spontaneous.  It's still planned, it's just planned
                       by a small group of corporate planners instead of a
                       small group of civil planners.
                       \_ The problem with your city utopia is that people
                          can't fuck their wives loudly and have babies.
                          And even if they start having kids in the city,
                          where would you hide when the baby starts crying?
                          Where would you keep your tools to fix your car?
                          Where would you keep your inlaws? There's no
                          backyard, garage, and an empty street where kids
                          can play safely. Your city utopia works well
                          when you're young, but as you get older you need
                          room and privacy to fuck and to have lots of kids.
                       \_ Sorry to tell you this but you're a minority.
                          95% of the people aren't like you, and do not
                          want to live in a compact city or dorm like
                          environment. To illustrate the point, why do
                          juniors, seniors, and grad students want to
                          move out of the dorm so badly? Because they're
                          fed up with living so close to other idiots
                          who party all night and listen to hip-hop music
                          3AM in the morning and smoke weeds. It's so much
                          easier to deal with 2-3 hours of traffic than to
                          deal with people. If space allows it, most people
                          in America will trade traffic for big space,
                          freedom of expression, and individuality.
                                                        -dim #1 fan
                          \_ Free expression, huh?  I guess that's why all the
                             artists, musicians, writers and scientists, and
                             most big-time entrepreneurs live in cities.
                             \_ "all the ...".  No.  I know a bunch of writers
                                and scientists.  None of them live in a large
                                city.  Ok, well, 1 writer does but she's
                                living in her mom's house at age 38.
                       \_ Let me guess, you're a liberal socialist and you
                          oppose the wonderful forces of free market?
                          \_ Nope I'm a liberal capitalist who hasn't been
                             duped by the new socialism of the suburbs.
                             Choosing between an identical McHouse with a
                             blue birdhouse mailbox and one with a brown
                             birdhouse mailbox or choosing between Target
                             and Walmart is not my idea of a free market.
                             Cities are the best place for a free market
                             to exist.  I don't see the NYSE planning to
                             move to some dipshit suburb of LA any time soon.
                             Can you name one stock exchange that's not in a
                             \_ there's a huge difference between building
                                new homes near a pre-existing job center and
                                firing up Utopiaville from scratch including
                                jobs (what jobs?!) people can walk to and
                                hoping it just magically works.
           \_ A history of the suburbs.
              "[S]prawl is not the anomalous result of American zoning laws, or
              "[S]prawl is not the anomalous result of American zoning laws,
              mortgage interest tax deduction, or cheap gas, or subsidized
              highway construction, or cultural antipathy toward cities. Nor
              is it an aberration... Sprawl is and always has been inherent
              to urbanization."
              \_ All of the examples there since the 19th century were
                 predicated on availability of public transportation.
2006/3/22-25 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42381 Activity:low
        Bush works hard to improve fuel economy. Here's a better idea
        for you out-of-touch politicians. Instead of building endless
        unplanned suburbs, how about encouraging developers to build
        sustainable and more efficient cities that require less driving?
        It'll drastically cut down on fuel consumption and other energy costs.
        \_ Americans value freedom.
           \_ the only reason why you have this "freedom" is because
              government is paying for the road.
           \_ So you equate sitting in a metal box for many hours a week
              with freedom.  You, sir, are a fucking moron.
              \_ You aren't forced to drive everywhere.  Change your career and
                 life style so you don't have to.  Every decision and life
                 style choice has plusses and minuses.  Pick the set that makes
                 you happiest.
                 \_ I haven chosen.  I don't own a car, and I live in one of the
                    very very few places in the U.S. where that doesn't ruin
                     \_ where is that, out of curiosity?
                        \_ Boulder, co.  Buses: amazing, bike trails:amazing
                           \_ indeed a cool place... love the scones from the
                              bakery downtown... best I ever had.
                              \_ Which bakery?  I'm new here, and I like
                                 \_ I don't remember the name, but it was on
                                    Pearl street, west of the walk-only portion,
                                    on the north side of the street.  Should be
                                    pretty easay to find.  The famous tea house
                                    (in the rough vicinity) was also pretty cool.
                                    \_ looked it up, I think it was Spruce
                                       Confections (767 Pearl St)
                                       \_ Thanks! I'll check it out tonight
                                          or tomorrow.
                    my life.  I intend to vote with my feet on this issue and
                    never live in a shithole like L.A., Houston, or Phoenix.
                    My point is that a life that includes sitting in a metal
                    box for several hours by yourself and not getting paid for
                    it involves less *freedom* than one where you're not.
                    I'm pretty sure I value freedom a lot more than the average
                    SUV driving McHouse dweller on just about every possible
                    axis on which freedom can be defined.
                    \_ Can all of the service workers the city requires afford
                       to live in this efficient and eco-friendly city of yours?
                       \_  In the city I just left? Yes.  In the city I'm in
                           now, rents are still way lower than the sprawling
                           Bay Area.   I don't think your sprawl is the product
                           of the free market anyway--it's just another form
                           of socialism: corporate socialism.  You're probably
                           from LA like most of the rightwing assholes on the
                           motd, so it's difficult for you to understand that
                           people don't have to live that way, but there are
                           plenty of livable non-car cities with over a million
                           people, with a quarter million people, with 80,000
                           poeple, 25,000 people, and less than a thousand.
                           It's not some crazy utopia--it's your world that's
                           a crazy dystopia, and you're just too brainwashed
                           to see it.
                           \_ Hear hear! These car drivin suburbanites
                              refuse to admit how much urbanites subsidize
                              their wasteful and selfish lifestyle. I for
                              one am sick and tired of paying high taxes
                              and other increased costs (like higher utility
                              costs) just so they can live in their McMansions.
                              \_ Well, then we agree.  I have no problem with
                                 these morons going out in the desert and
                                 building sprawl if they want to pay for it and
                                 actually live up to their free market rhetoric.
                                 But, as with most people who carp the loudest
                                 about the "free market", the suburbanites are
                                 really statists.  The exception is when their
                                 pollution infriges on my right to breathe
                                 without getting asthma at a young age, which
                                 I consider to be a basic right.
                                 \_ Our great Lord Bush disagrees with you.
                                    He recommends you drive an SUV and live in
                                    a nice mansion in Texas.
                            \_ is funny
                               The only CA city ranked for walking is... Fremont
                                \_ I didn't have a car for most of my years in
                                   Berkeley and it wasn't a big deal.  Fremont?
                            \_ Which motd rightwingers are from LA?  None
                               of the ones I know are.
        \_ i'll up YOUR mileage
2006/3/19-20 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:42316 Activity:low
3/19    Trading in hummers for hybrids:
        \_ I thought Berkeley taught you how to read.  The title is:
           "Trading the Hummer for a Honda." and give you another hint:
           \_ Why would Berkeley teach people how to read?  That's the
              responsibility of elementary schools.
           \_ The article talked about a 400h. That's a hybrid.
              \_ but the Honda Element is not.
2006/3/1-4 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:42057 Activity:low
        Good bye Detroit! And good riddens
                                   \_ riddance
        \_ why arent the expensive cars like MBZ and Audi more reliable?
                \_ Consumer Reports had a sidebar on that last year.  Their
                   theory is that European luxury carmakers tend to stuff the
                   cars with unproven, gimmicky electronics that are prone to
                   failure, where Japanese luxury brands are more cautious.
                   \_ It's not that, it's that they do not have sufficient
                      control over their supply chains.  Especially Mercedes
                      was hit by a series of really bad quality component
                      parts, leading to recalls.  BMW and, to a lesser extent
                      Audi, have this reasonably well in hand.  -John
           \_ Isn't it obvious? They are built by Germans who are unhappy
              that the Italians, French and Austrians are always enjoying
              cigarettes, coffee and beautiful women in cafes while they
              are stuck in working in factories whose efficiency would make
              the SS proud.
        \_ Why are people who are generally pro-union, anti-Detroit?
                \_ If the cars were better, I'm sure they would be
                   "pro-Detroit".  When Hyundai cars first appeared here, they
                   were awful and Consumer Reports said the Excel was one of
                   the worst cars they ever had tested.  Maybe they are just
                   being objective?
2006/3/1-2 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:42042 Activity:high
3/1     great video about some georgia college students doing a speed
        limit experiment:
        anyone know the funky song thats playing at the end?
        \_ In Georgia? I'm surprised they weren't shot.
        \_ This is really interesting, and I get their point, but their
           execution, while effective and dramatic, was pretty dickish.
           I hope they weren't pulling that during a busy commute time.
           \_ Why?  I like the whole "civil obedience" thing.  If following
              the law is dangerous and pointless, then...?  -John
              \_ Have you ever been stuck in traffic and discovered that the
                 reason for the traffic was a "phantom" stop (i.e., the result
                 of someone ahead of you slowing slightly, and then the person
                 behind them slowing more, and so on until you finally stop)?
                 Well, it's bad enough when the flow of traffic is disturbed
                 by an expression of Chaos Theory; it's more annoying when it's
                 the the result of some people actively seeking to slow down
                 traffic to make a point. --erikred
                 \_ Yes, it is a well-documented phaenomenon of traffic
                    dynamics.  That has nothing to do with stupid or in-
                    appropriate laws, and with pointing this out.  -John
                    \_ I was attempting to evoke a visceral response to being
                       stuck in traffic and then trying to get you to compare
                       that feeling with the feeling you would have if the
                       latter were instead the case. But hey, if neither of
                       these bother you, more power to you. How's the traffic
                       in the Andes? --erikred
                       \_ It would bother me tremendously, natch.  I hate being
                          stuck in traffic, but it's kind of a NIMBY thing.
                          What they're doing is sort of snotty college-brat
                          hoserish, you are right, but the point they make is
                          very valid.  As for traffic in the Andes, look at
                          ~john/Temp/IMG_14{23,42,53}.JPG  :-)  -John
                          \_ vo ist ze lederhosen? HEIL GERMAN JOHN!!!
                          \_ So we agree... to agree. :) Nice pix. That's the
                             right setting for 4/AWD. --erikred
                             \_ always warms my  heart with joy
                                when some banker twat in one of the cheap
                                Chinese SUV knock-offs they love down here
                                cuts me off, to just think about where I took
                                ours last weekend... -John
                 \_ I think people are going too fast.  I like the current
                    speed limits.  I hate people who tailgates me with their
                    big fat truck and headlights when I am already driving
                    at the speed limit.  I will purposely slow down to
                    annoy them when they do that.    - Mr 55
                    \_ Mr 55 Guy, I have the answer for you from the cop who
                       did the driving class I was in for a ticket in response
                       to some woman who was seeking praise from the cop for
                       doing 55 in front of fast people, "It is not your job
                       to regulate the flow of traffic, it is my job.  If
                       you're going slower than the vehicles behind you, get
                       out of the way, you're more dangerous than they are".
                       She then proceeded to repeat herself and heap praise
                       upon herself for her high moral standards which
                       elicited the same response in much harsher tones until
                       he eventually beat the concept into her tiny brain.
                       \_ So what was her ticket for?
                          \_ No idea.  He was extremely no nonsense and had
                             zero bullshit tolerance so we didn't play the
                             'go around the room and say what our tickets are
                             for' game.  He gave this one girl the boot from
                             class for coming in 20 minutes late on the
                             second night (still wearing her cheer leader
                             high school outfit) and sent her packing in tears
                             to go sign up for a re-take.
                       \_ why were you in traffic school for?  - Mr 55
                          \_ tagged for running a yellow light.  In 20 years
                             I've had 4 tickets including that one, another
                             was "unsafe right turn on red" and one for
                             speeding.  72 in 65.  The last was a Berkeley cop
                             for something that took him 15 minutes to figure
                             out what to put on the ticket but came down to
                             something like, "crossing a highway against
                             oncoming traffic", that traffic being his idled
                             patrol car on the side of the road with his lights
                             out at night.
                       \_ I am not trying to regulate traffic.  I am just
                          trying to drive at a safe speed.  why should I
                          be subjected to dangerous tailgating or constant
                          lane changes.  It's not like I am driving at 45.
                          I am driving 55.  I've never been stopped by police
                          for driving too slow.  - Mr 55
                          \_ If you're driving 55 in California, you're still
                             driving too slow. The limit is 65 here and it's
                             generally agreed that if you're driving 55,
                             you're impeding traffic, particularly if you're
                             in the left lane. By the way, in Germany, you
                             will be pulled over if you get caught being a
                             left lane bandit or if you tailgate. I think
                             that's the way it should be here.
                             \_ Wrong. The speed limit for big rigs on every
                                highway in California is 55 or less. You are
                                allowed to drive 55 legally in the right hand
                                lane. Change the law if you don't like it.
                          \_ There is a place for you on the highway that
                             is safe for your driving speed, won't get you
                             heavily tail gated, won't piss off or endanger
                             anyone, including yourself and requires no lane
                             changes at all: the right lane.  Know it, drive
                             it, love it.
                             \_ First of all, that's bullshit.  Years ago,
                                when I used to be a car-driver like you,
                                I used to go slightly over the speed limit
                                (which was 65) and stay in the right lane
                                if there were two lanes or the middle lane
                                if there were three and frequent exits.  I
                                was continually tailgated, and occasionally
                                brighted out even when the left lane was totally
                                empty.  Face it. Most of the people on the
                                road shouldn't be given a license to operate
                                a fucking bigwheels, much less the 6000 pound
                                monsters they all feel the need to drive now.
                                And whatever speed any of you drive, you still
                                poison my air, and I still have to pay for
                                your oil subsudies and oil wars.  I don't even
                                remember where I was going with this rant
                                now.  FUCK BIRDS!!!  Let 'em die in windmills.
                                \_ You know, I find it kind of reassuring
                                   that you're not on the freeways anymore.
                                   \_ With 30,000 car related deaths a year,
                                      I'm glad you feel so safe.  Moron.
                                      \_ Heh, I never said I "felt safe".
                                         I said it was "reassuring".  Work
                                         on your reading skills, young
                                         neurotic padawan.
                                         \_ Oh, yeah, it was the other guy
                                            who said "we're all safer".
                                            Whatever.  Consider my crazed,
                                            free-floating rage to be directed
                                            at both of you.
                                            \_ Well, once again your reading
                                               skills have failed you.  The
                                               fact that we're safer thanks
                                               to your absence isn't equivalent
                                               to "we're safe".  Keep trying,
                                               neurotic grasshopper.
                                               \_ Fuck you.
                                                  \_ LOL  I haven't had this
                                                     much fun on motd in a
                                                     long time.  Keep it up
                                                     Mr. Wannabe Sociopath!
                                                     \_ Blow it out your ass,
                                                        wanker.  FUck you.
                                                        \_ Y0u r3wl, dud3!!1!
                                      \_ Someone is off their meds this
                                   \_ Heh, I was about to say something like
                                      that, too.  We're all safer.  Except the
                                      pedestrians he's going to hit with his
                                      bike at 30 mph because he doesn't walk
                                      his bike at cross walks as per the law.
                                      \_ Fuck you.
                                         \_ Back on the meds!  Down, boy! Down!
                                            \_ Just went on new medication this
                                               week.  So far I'm unimpressed.
                                               Fuck you.
                                               \_ Yeah, I'm not so impressed
                                                  with those meds either.
                                                  Maybe you should consider
                                                  going to a new doctor.
                    \_ And I'll support your right to do this. If you get some
                       friends to drive next to you and thereby block all
                       traffic, however, you're not just exercising your right,
                       you're blocking traffic, no matter how legally you're
                       doing it. --erikred
                       \- and dont do that in the "fast lane" if there is one.
                          \_ When I drive in the fast lane, I always make
                             sure that my car is faster then cars in the lane
                             to my right, but still, there will be these
                             people driving big trucks or other monster
                             vehicle tailgating me.  I mean if I get a good
                             chance, I will filter right and let them pass
                             but I don't feel I have an obligation to do that
                             in a hurry if I am already faster than cars in
                             the lane to my right.  I find these tailgaters
                             annoying, and I will slow down just to annoy
                             them back if they follow me too closely.  - Mr 55
                             \_ Yeah, see that puzzles me.  I'd think that,
                                if the guy behind you is engaging in stupid
                                of the guy behind you is engaging in stupid
                                dangerous behavior, the logical thing to do
                                would be to get out of his way and alleviate
                                the hazardous situation rather than trying
                                to get the 'last word' and exacerbate things.
                                That behavior would seem to contradict your
                                insistence that you drive slowly to be at a
                                "safer speed".   -mice
                                to get the 'last word' and exacerbate the
                                situation.  That behavior would seem to
                                things.  That behavior would seem to
                                contradict your insistence that you drive
                                slowly to be at a "safer speed".   -mice
                             \_ I usually move right to allow faster cars to
                                pass in the fast lane, but I'm with you-- I'd
                                rather slow down than give in to a tailgater.
                                \_ The proper thing to do is let the
                                   faster traffic pass. You could get a
                                   ticket if you don't.
                                   \- while i acknowledge there is obnoxious
                                      tailgating, you do have to pull up
                                      enough to convey you want to go faster.
                                      (which i usually do and then back off)
                                      and of course if there is a lot of
                                      traffic ahead of the car directly in
                                      front of you, you should back off.
                                   \_ Not if passing on the right is allowed,
                                      as it is on CA highways.
                                      \_ Do you know what "proper" means?
                                         \_ Sorry, wasn't clear: agreed with
                                            proper, disagreed with ticket.
                                      \_ When I retook my DMV exam recently
                                         this question was on it. If
                                         someone pulls up behind you and,
                                         say, flashes his lights then it
                                         is your job to get out of his
                                         way. It is not his responsibility
                                         to pass you on the right.
                                         \_ yea, the DMV booklet also says
                                            to maintain a certain distance
                                            while following.  I actually
                                            prefer people flash me instead
                                            of tailgating me, which is
                                            much more dangerous.
                                            \_ Two wrongs don't make a right.
                                               \_ Like I said if he flashes
                                                  me it's okay.  Sometimes
                                                  people do have emergencies.
                                                  But no, tailgating is not
                                                  acceptable because you
                                                  are endangering other
                                                  people's lives.  And yes,
                                                  two wrongs don't make a
                                                  right means you are not
                                                  supposed to tailgate even
                                                  if the old lady doesn't
                                                  move over.
                                                  \_ I'm not disputing that
                                                     tailgating is illegal
                                                     and dangerous. I am
                                                     pointing that that impeding
                                                     traffic in some silly
                                                     urge to be 'right' is
                                                     both unsafe and illegal.
                                                     \_ well, you said "if a
                                                        driver pulls up
                                                        behind you, it is your
                                                        job to get out of the
                                                        way".  This is not
                                                        true.  A prerequisite
                                                        for impeding traffic
                                                        is two or more vehicles
                                                        following you.  Blocking
                                                        one idiot trying to drive
                                                        faster than the
                                                        traffic flow doesn't
                                                        constitute impeding
                                                        traffic.  No police
                                                        will stop you for that.
                 \_ The point is they are adhereing to a law that should
                    ticket everyone not going that slowly anyway.
                 \_ We're not blocking traffic, we are
                    traffic! - Critical Mass
        \_ I would like to have seen the cops get involved.
           \_ And what could they do?  Ticket them for going the speed limit?
              I suppose there could be a ticket for disturbing the peace or
              or something like that.  Like willfully attempting to block
              \_ Obstructing traffic.  Misdemeanor in CA
                 \_ Would that stick if you were travelling exactly at the
                    maximum speed limit?  On what grounds?  As long as you
                    weren't blocking emergency vehicles...
                    \_ In CA, Obstructing Traffic requires a vehicle to be
                       stopped. Strangely enough, the proper charge might be
                       Reckless Driving. See:
        \_ 4 lane freeways are 55 there?  Yeesh.
        \_ I think they should invent new signs in some threatening color and
           put new "Zero Tolerance" speed limits on them, that are like the
           ones the cops actually enforce.  1mph over and you'll be ticketed
           \_ In Scottsdale, they have automatic speed ticketing cameras/radar
              \- as is common in europe. will be interesting to see if they
                 survive giving tickets to cops and judges and pols.
                 \_ Except for in the UK (where they're insane), most Euro
                    cameras have tolerance limits, and are in areas where
                    traffic is dangerous and speeding is dangerous.  Except
                    in some places like NL where they measure over distance.
                    This is pointless and lame.  -John
                        \_ I always know when we hit a camera zone in Holland
                           when my relatives are driving me somewhere because
                           for no reason they suddenly slow down a lot, and
                           then a little later speed up ...
                 \_ Are you kidding?  They'll be 'taken care of'.
                    \_ I kind of doubt that. The red light cameras in SF
                       and the speed cameras in DC are unmolested.
                       \_ You misunderstand.  PP was refering to the practice
                          of 'ticket-fixing'.
                \_ In Taiwan, they have a device that will warn you whenever
                   you approach places where there are speed ticketing
                   cameras or radars.
                \_ Russia: get jailed for having an official crash into YOU. -oj
                   \_ America: apologize when an official shoots YOU!
        \_ They should learn to spell.
2006/2/12-15 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:41807 Activity:nil
2/12    How the state-backed Chinese car manufacturers copy the western designs
        for free:,,22750-2012852,00.html
        \_ My question is, when is GM gonna bring the Matiz home?
           \_ They seem to be busy bringing more giant trucks:
              \_ Man, the car that really throws me is the cadillac
                 pickup.  I'm mean, seriously, WTF?
                 \_ Too much money plus the lack of good state.
                 \_ There's an article in the newspapers this weekend
                    about how middleclass Indian families in India
                    just go to the local village carpenter with an
                    IKEA catalog in hand and point out what they want built.
                    \_ I don't see anything wrong with that, except the Indians
                       showing lack of taste.  If I could get the local village
                       carpenter to build me anything for a buck or two, it
                       wouldn't be Ikea's crap.
                    \_ are these those new ikea VR catalogs?
                       \- this is true with jewelry too ... "the family
                          jeweler" has asked my mother to save catelogs for
                          him. although when safeway etc makes generic
                          versions of oreo etc arent they becailly doing the
                          same thing? i was surprised to see a clones of
                          ODWALLA SUPERFOOD by one of the other boutique
                          juice companies ... i thought that would have been
                          \_ Re safeway generics (and drug store brands):
                             many are manufactured by the same parent co
                             on behalf of the supermarket or drug store.
                             A few are manufactured by 3d parties under
                             the FDA generic license.
                             Re Odwalla: If the formula for superfood is
                             protected, it is either as a trade secret or
                             a patent. I do not think that it is possible
                             to patent the recipe for a complex food stuff
                             such as superfood (as opposed to say the
                             formula for coke) b/c the claims would be too
                             broad (but I will ask my Patents prof today).
                             If the protection is under trade secret, in
                             a likelihood Odwalla cannot prove misapprop-
                             \_ Chemical formulas fall under their own section
                                of patent law.  Usually a tiny change in the
                                formula is enough to avoid a patent.
2006/2/9-11 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:41789 Activity:nil
        Urban sprawl is universal and not an American phenomenon.
        \_ The auto has turned it into a major menace though.
           First world cities built post-automobile are all
           spread out much more than the older cities, sometimes
           by a whole order of magnitude more.
2006/2/7-9 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:41753 Activity:high
2/7     Wanna get killed in a Smart car? It's easy.
        \_ How much better do you think a "normal" car would have done?
        \_ That looks like quite impressive crash performance for a
           collision with a concrete wall at 70mph.  -tom
           \_ Sure the frame is alright, but what about the crash dummy?
              How good the car looks after a crash has no bearing on how
              well the passengers
              \_ There wasn't a crash dummy, but I can't imagine that any
                 car would perform significantly better than the Smart car
                 does in that demonstration.  And of *course* how well the
                 frame looks has a bearing on how the passengers do; do I
                 need to put the Mini vs. F150 page in the MOTD again? -tom
                 \_ Mini vs F150
                    "Most accidents involve only one car?"  Does he mean
                    "fatal accidents?" or "injury accidents" or what?
                    I've been run into like 3 times, but all were pretty
                    slow.  I do agree that head-on collisons are a stupid
                    thing to worry about.  Rear-ending is more common and
                    T-bones are more dangerous.
        \_ You mean 'wanna LIVE in a Smart car? It's easy."? (just looking at
           the video)
        \_ Wanna get killed in any other car? It's also very easy ..
        \_ If the comparison thru 70mph head-on collision is "Smart car hitting
           massive object" vs. "Civic hitting massive object", yes Smart car
           will do better.  Likewise, if the comparison is "Smart car hitting
           Crown Victoria" vs. "Civic hitting Crown Victoria", again Smart car
           will do better.  However, in the latter case the Crown Victoria will
           survive better than both the Smart car and the Civic because of it
           mass.  So, in which of the three cars do you want to be during a
           head-on collision with another car?
           \_ Mass translates into kinetic energy.  I think the premise that
              a vehicle with higher kinetic energy is more likely to be
              safe in a collision is unfounded.   -tom
              \_ KE needs to be considered with P
                 \_ Yes, I'm sure it will be comforting when your large car
                    decides to do work on your skull.  -tom
                    \_ In a head-on, which would you rather be in:
                       Locomotive vs. 18 wheeler:
                       18 Wheeler vs. Hummer:
                       Hummer vs Civic:
                       Civic vs. RIDE BIKE!:
                       RIDE BIKE! vs sneakers:
                       Locomotive vs sneakers:
                       Taking all of 2 seconds to think about this should make
                       it clear that mass of the vehicle will keep the person
                       in the larger vehicle safer overall than the person in
                       the smaller vehicle.  Obviously not being in a wreck at
                       all is best case but we can't always avoid a collision.
                       \_ The head-on collision without any angular vectors
                          is simply not very common.  In the real world, lots
                          of different kinds of fatal accidents happen,
                          and most of them are not head-on, and those
                          that are classified as head-on are mostly not
                          pure-headon-inelastic-collision.  Heck, the Smart
                          car may wind up becoming a ramp for your Crown
                          Victoria.    -tom
                          \_ Uhm, so what?  Take any angle you want.  Which
                             transport would you rather be in in any of the
                             above situations?
                             \_ There are plenty of accidents where it is
                                better to be in a smaller car.  That's why
                                big cars have just as many fatalities.  -tom
                                \_ DUCK!  "I can name that accident in 3
                                   collisions!"  "Tom, name that accident!"
                        \_ This is not always true.  Many big boaty cars of
                           1970s and 1980s were very unsafe because they did
                           not have collapsing steering columns.  In an
                           not have collapsing steering column.  In an accident
                           the steering column would pretty much squash your
                           chest and/or head.  If the hummer had a steering
                           column like that, I'd take my chances in the civic.
                           \_ This isn't the 1970s and 1980s.  How many of
                              those cars are still on the road?
                           \_ Then you'll like the massive locomotive, which
                              does not have a steering column.
                           \_ Then you'll like a locomotive, which does not
                              have a steering column.
                              \_ Unless it's diesel or steam, in which case
                                 you'll probably be smooshed in 50 million
                                 pounds of steel AND doused with hot burning
                                 shit, or electric, which will tangle you up
                                 in high tension wires!  -John
                                 \_ More likely the little car would get
                                    smashed aside with everyone killed by the
                                    loco's cow fender on the front.  A bad day
                                    for the loco engineer but he's going home
                                    to his family.  The civic passengers are
                                    dead at any reasonable rate of speed.
                                    \_ Ah, but a gigantic blob of gore may
                                       fly in a spectacular arc towards the
                                       driver's cabin of the locomotive and
                                       spatter the driver with bits of bone
                                       and brain, thereby inflicting traumatic
                                       dry cleaning bills.  -John
                                       \_ Yeah, that counts as a bad day for
                                          the engineer, but the dry cleaning
                                          bills should be picked up by the
                                          company if he was wearing the
                                          company uniform.  Or maybe the gore
                                          will just splatter across the
                                          wind shield.  Wind shield fluid is
                                          pretty cheap.
                                          \_ What if it hits him in the eye,
                                             and it just happens to be a bit
                                             of stomach lining, and the prior
                                             owner just had a really spicy
                                             Mexican meal?  -John
                       \_ That might work if you are in a demolition derby but
                          in the real world that KE is often gonna end up
                          smashing into some largish inanimate object before
                          too long. Or a pileup of other cars. At which
                          point the safety engineering becomes more important
                          than the mass. What percentage of crashes are head
                          on collisions where the cars don't deflect off in
                          some way? I bet it's not that high.
                          \_ What percentage of non-headons result in death or
                             life long injury?  Headons and side impacts to
                             where someone is sitting are the 2 killers.
                             Getting rear ended at most speeds means you get
                             some painful soft tissue damage and some cash.
                             My 4 door sedan with steel bars in the side
                             panels bounced an SUV coming in at a 45` angle at
                             about 20-25 mph.  They bought me a new door.  No
                             biggie.  My civic would have been totalled.  (Yes,
                             I owned a civic too).  I rear ended another large
                             vehicle (sigh) at about 15 with the sedan.  We
                             both drove home with minimal damage.  The civic
                             got caught in a 4 car (car #3) and pretzeled at
                             about 25mph and the driver (not me) was injured.
                             Maybe my experience runs counter to the odds but
                             I don't think so.  I'll stick with my big
                             vehicles for safety, thanks.
                             \_ How old was the Civic? The door strength I
                                think isn't necessarily tied to the overall
                                vehicle mass. Maybe that Civic just wasn't
                                very safe regardless. A lot of older small
                                cars were, that didn't necessarily have to
                                be (probably goes along with small cars
                                generally also being cheap cars). Shrug.
                                \_ Civic was 2000.  True that putting steel
                                   bars inside a puff box only means the
                                   passengers get steel bars in their chests.
                                   The rest of the car has to be big enough
                                   and structurally sound enough to take that
                                   hit and spread the force without smashing
                                   a passenger.  All else being equal, the
                                   bigger vehicle is going to take a hit better
                                   than a smaller one.  Get Thee To Ye Ol'
                                   Locomotive, Sir!
        \_ Hmm, why did the narrator in this British video use mph instead of
           km/h?  --- yuen
           \_ Um, perhaps the narrator is British, but the video is not?
              \_ But the license plate of the Smart car is UK format.  Okay
                 maybe it's a British narrator reporting a UK crash test on an
                 American channel.  I don't remember which other countries
                 still use the imperial system and have English TV.  --- yuen
                 \_ The Brits use a mix of imperial and metric units. Speeds,
                    at least automotive speeds, are generally given in units
                    of mph. -gm
                    \_ Um, freeway signs are metric in UK.  Are you talking
                       racing world?  Or are you talking out of your ass?
                       \_ I admit I haven't been to the UK in a few years,
                          but speed limit signs, at least, were definitely in
                          mph; I think distance signs were as well, but I don't
                          recall exactly. The UK Metric Association agrees:
                          If you have a more definitive souce, I'd be happy
                          to see it. -gm
                          \_ Whoa, I'm smoking the crack.. Sorry.
                             Now I'm wondering where I went...
                        \_ Brits talk in miles quite often.  Officially they
                           use km on road signs.  -John
        \_ Another point that always gets left out of the Mass vs. Safety debate
           is the maneuverability of the smaller car.  If only 3/4 of potential
           accidents are realized in a more maneuverable vehicle, that's a
           pretty big safety win.  SUV == passive safety.
           \_ There's no way a smaller car is going to be able to avoid 25%
              of their wrecks.  Most wrecks either come out of nowhere or
              you have no place to escape to.  And frankly, most people don't
              know how to drive their car anyway and couldn't avoid a wreck
              under optimal conditions.  We call those "fender benders" and
              they're incredibly common.
              \_ Or worse, some drivers try to maneuver their cars to avoid a
                 wreck when they shouldn't (e.g. speed too high, no room on the
                 side), and end up with a bigger wreck like rollover or head-on
                 100+mph collision with opposite traffic, killing others with
                 their stupidity.
                 \_ and let us note, bigger cars are more likely to roll...
                    \_ Huh?  A Sienna is less likely to roll than a 2-dr RAV4.
                       I've driven both, although not actually encoutering any
                       near-rollover conditions.
                       I've driven both, and the Sienna rolls less during fast
                       turns.  I've not actually encoutered any near-rollover
                       situations though.
                       \_ No facts please.
        \_ URL to mroe info on smart car?
2006/1/26-29 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:41557 Activity:high
1/26    Our jobs are getting outsourced because we're unpatriotic and
        buy foreign goods. Try something new. By an American vehicle -
        chances are you'll be pleasantly surprised:
        \_ Real patriots don't drive cars.
        \_ I bought an American vehicle but it had nothing to do with
           politics.  I drove everything I was even remotely interested in
           in the 20-30k range from all makers and got an excellent price.
           If American makers want more sales they need to improve quality
           and features without increasing prices.  Ford only had half the
           right idea announce on Monday: they're over staffed and dumping
           1/4 of their work force.  I didn't see anything about fixing the
           core problem which is that their car quality just sucks or I
           would've bought some stock for a long term hold.  GM got decent
           customer satisfaction/quality ratings on recent surveys but didn't
           market that fact at all.  Companies run by stupid people are just
           doomed in the long run.
           \_ Actually, they know exactly why their quality sucks.  Because
              they spend something like $6k/car on worker benefits.  That's
              an extra $5k/car (!!) that their competition can spend on quality
              parts and assurance.
              \_ I'm calling bullshit on you.
              \_ I call bullshit on you.  Give some evidence.
              \_ I'm sure Ford knows.  My disappointment is that they didn't
                 announce a plan to do anything about it.  I used to own one.
                 It was fun but built like shit and their service centers
                 sucked too.
              \_ It's not $6K. It's about $3K. Note that German workers
                 get paid still higher though. I'd blame the unions.
        \_ Eh, I'm being patriotic and I buy Japanese cars. But then
           again I'm Japanese. I win.
        \_ "But I think the real fault lies with the U.S. consumer. First we
           wanted sport-utility vehicles, now we don't."  How dare we have
           fads!  For shame!
        \_ Someone should inform this guy that American cars are built by
           Mexicans, while Japanese cars are being built by Americans.
           \_ True, and that's why Nissan/Infiniti ratings are so low.
              If you buy a car built in Japan it's going to be better
              and I'm not sure why that is.
              \_ I think that Nissan/Infiniti's problems have more to
                 do w/ the company and less to do w/ US manufacturing.
                 Toyota builds many Camry's and Corrola's in the US
                 and there are no quality problems w/ either. Same w/
                 The problem faced by US automakers is that they do
                 not spend enough time time on the details for most
                 cars (cf. trucks where US trucks are considered very
                 cars (cf. trucks where US trucks are considered
                 \_ Perhaps, but Nissan's rating were higher when they
                    were Japan-built.
                 \_ Perhaps, but Nissan's ratings were higher when they
                    were Japan-built. BMW's ratings are higher for their
                    German-(or South African)-built cars. I have a
                    friend who specifically sought out a Japanese-built
                    Camry (you can tell by VIN). Is it better? I dunno,
                    but I'd bet it is if I had to guess.
                    \_ I owned a NUMI built Corrola for nearly 8 years
                       and the car was rock solid, never had any issues.
                       My brother has a Japan built Corrola now and it
                       equally reliable. Same w/ my Indiana built Outback.
                       I've owned American for years and the difference
                       btwn Japanese and American cars is the attention
                       to detail in the design rather than the location
                       of manufacture. Japanese manufacturers seem to
                       take more time to "debug" their cars. [ I under-
                       stand that my experience is not a statistically
                       significant sample ]
        \_ US car manufacturers do have at least some fairly competitive
           vehicles in their lineups. However, most of them are
           underrated in consumers' minds. (I for one think Ford's
           lineup is competitive except for Lincoln which needs an
           overhaul like the one given to Cadillac).  However, you
           can't blame consumers alone for this. No one likes gambling
           with a $15K-$30K purchasing decision. Snob appeal also
           plays a role. Most US brands are now considered inferior to
           the big three Japanese companies and I suppose there are
           some people who wouldn't want to drive an American car just
           because of that. I would blame again the manufacturers for
           this. Having even one gimmick in a product lineup can do
           damage to the whole brand.  Offering cutthroat discounts at
           the time when US media is mostly filled with negative news
           about Ford and GM probably doesn't help much to brand's
           image either.  Neither it will help immediately if a brand
           like Ford came up with clear winners in all cathegories as
           it takes some time to build confidence among the consumers.
        \_ I'm from Hong Kong and I bought three American cars before I bought
           my first foreign one: Ford (sucks), Jeep (sucks), Jeep (okay),
           Toyota (excellent).
           \_ I totalled my Camry,had it repaired, been running great
              for 2 years since.  (there... i bet i just jinxed it)
2006/1/19-21 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41445 Activity:low
1/19    Current US fleet average MPG is 21
        John Claybrook issued a NHTSA directive
        requiring a CAFE fleet average of 48 MPG in 1981:
        (Yes, the source is Ralph Nader but it is still accurate)
        US oil consumption is 21M BBL/day:
        Imports at 9.5 M BBL/day: (DOE)
        Gasoline consumption at 400 M gal/day: (Conoco Phillips)
        400 M gal/day = 9.5 M BBL/day
        21/48 * 9.5 M BBL/day = 4.1 M BBL/day
        (9.5-4.1)/21 = 26% of US overall oil consumption or
        5.4/9.9 = 55% of US overall oil imports
        Here is a single URL that pulls all this together, but without
        They claim that 40% of US oil is used by cars and trucks, so they
        get a 20% reduction instead of my 26%, but the number is similar
        either way. I don't know how you can seriously dispute all this.
        You can quibble about the exact numbers, but not the overall result.
        \_ "requiring a CAFE fleet average of 48 MPG in 1981".  You mean
           when Reagan was president?  Ronnie's da man!  Now what does this
           have to do with Carter setting Cafe standard?  Sounds like you
           should be a Reaganite.
           \_ Do you look as stupid as you are?
        \_ Be careful doing simplistic math like this.  You're talking about
           human behavior which is dynamic and not easily predicted.  If gas
           prices were to skyrocket to $15/gallon over night, you'd see the
           total miles driven drop to the baseline driving people *must* do
           to survive (work, buy food, etc).  If gas dropped to 5 cents/gal,
           people would be driving more than they do now.  Same thing with
           mpg.  If I got 500 mpg, I'd be doing a lot more driving for fun
           than if I got 5mpg.  Increasing average mpg isn't necessarily going
           to reduce overall gas consumption by that amount.  It won't and it
           can't.  People aren't like that.  Also, taking a single giant
           number like "current fleet average" is going to change as people's
           tastes change.  Since light trucks, SUVs, etc, get lower mpg, that
           has had an impact on SUV sales causing more people to buy lighter
           vehicles and push up the average over time as those vehicles are
           phased out.  Also, there is another cost to lighter vehicles no
           one has mentioned yet, which is the estimated 1300-2600 additional
           fatalities per year (I couldn't find injury stats, only death) due _/
  uhh, no.  Look at those numbers.  The safest cars FOR THE DRIVERS have
  little to no relation to the size of the car.
           to CAFE standards forcing more light vehicles on the road.  Nothing
           good comes free in life.  More traffic deaths is one of the trade
           offs for having CAFE.  Note that I'm not disputing any of the
           original raw data you're providing but the interpretation of that
           data which says we'll save x% of gas if we increase mpg average
           by y% is not realistic.
           \_ Okay, I will not argue with any of this. Perhaps increased
              fuel economy would encourage people to drive more, etc. The
              main point is that there was and *is* still a relatively
              effective tool we could use to massively decrease our dependence
              on foreign oil, we just refuse to use it.
           \_ Could you provide a reference which shows that people whose
              cars get better mileage drive more?  Because observationally
              that's definitely not true.  And it's certainly not true that
              vehicles which get better gas mileage have more fatalities;
              SUVs cause more fatalities than smaller cars.  -tom
              \_ The death #s are in one of the pdf links I posted earlier
                 from a government CAFE study published in 2001.  Do you have
                 a link showing SUVs cause more fatalities?  I believe the
                 same study also have a lengthy bit about driving habits, but
                 common sense should convince one that higher $/mile will
                 reduce driving by some amount X, and lower $/mile will
                 increase driving by some other amount Y.  If gas was free do
                 you honestly believe people wouldn't drive more?  If gas
                 cost $25/gallon do you honestly believe they wouldn't drive
                 less?  It's late, I'm going home.  The 2001 CAFE study link
                 is on the motd somewhere.
                 \_ If gas was significantly more expensive I would drive
                    a lot less, however if it was significantly less
                    expensive I wouldn't drive any more than I do now.
                    I don't take public transportation for money, I take
                    it for quality of life.
                    \_ So your driving habits are directly changed by the
                       price of gas, which is exactly what I was saying.
                       Pricing is relative, there is only a sliding scale.
                Besides the object lesson, the stats there show that SUVs
                kill more non-occupants than smaller cars, and that the
                likelihood of occupant fatality is related to the quality,
                not the size of the vehicle.
                I think you can go to the 580/680 interchange and count SUVs
                headed to San Francisco in the morning if you want proof that
                people's gas mileage isn't a major factor in their decision
                to drive.  -tom
                \_ The CAFE thing was originally a minor side point about
                   Carter.  I'm satisfied that we hashed that one out
                   pretty much.  I don't see a point in discussing fatality
                   and usage statistics or anything else with anyone who
                   uses "go to the 580/680 interchange and count SUVs" as a
                   way to determine nationwide behaviour re: gas usage, SUV
                   sales numbers and pricing, yet who starts off asking for
                   links in the same post they say something like, "because
                   observationally that's definitely not true".  The CAFE
                   thing was heated but mostly civil (especially for the motd).
                   I don't see this headed that way.  You "win" if you want
                   to think of it that way.
                   \_ translation: "I have no evidence for my position."
                      OK, thanks for letting us know.   -tom
                      \_ The link is there.  You choose not to read it.
                         Talking with others has been interesting and
                         educational.  That's so rarely the case with you
                         that there's no point.  "YOU WIN! YAY! CONGRATS!"
                \_ If cars actually produced energy, there were no traffic
                   ever so I could drive at 100 miles an hour all the time,
                   and they gave orgasms to all the women one passed, I'd
                   still ride my bike.  I will never drive.  I believe slightly
                   more people of our generation feel this way than our
                   parents' generation, and that this trend will continue.
                   \_ You're a very silly person.
                      \_ You can call my silly all day long--just don't make
                      \_ You can call me silly all day long--just don't make
                         me drive to work.
                         \_ LOL, okay, fair enough.  :P
2006/1/19-21 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:41434 Activity:kinda low
        The initial CAFE fuel standards were set by Carter, then
        lowered later by Reagan.
        \_ I can't back this claim up, but I think fuel efficiency would
           be helped tremendously by ending welfare for the U.S. auto
           manufacturers.  The public wants higher mileage.  As long as the
           executives at U.S. auto manufacturers continue to live on the
           public dole, they have no motivation to give a shit about what
           the public wants, and shareholders and union workers have no
           motivation to revolt against the cockroaches who run their
           companies.  I find it both sickening and amusing that so many
           so-called conservative republicans support welfare for auto
        \_ Oops, even the 1978 standards weren't set by Carter but by
           "Conress itself set the standards for passenger cars, which rose
            from 18 miles per gallon in automobile model year (MY) 1978 to
            27.5 mpg in MY 1985.  As authorized by the act, the Department of
            Transportation (DOT) set standards for light trucks for model
            years 1979 through [munged by pdf->html, year lost, sorry].  The
            standards are current 27.5 mpg for passenger cars and 20.7 mpg
            for light trucks".  Light trucks includes SUVs, etc, as we know.
            Report issued in 2001.
        \_ Garbage.  I dismissed this link since it provides no facts or
           details.  I restored the discussion below about this which has
           links with actual facts.  Good effort though.  CAFE predates
              "The rules for Corporate Average Fuel Economy, or CAFE
              standards, were first set for automobiles during the Carter
              years." I am waiting for your mea culpa.
              "As the administration of President Jimmy Carter was
               winding down, Claybrook advanced a NHTSA notice that
               called for fuel efficiency standards to reach 48 mpg by 1995."
              \_ Mea this:
                 The Energy Policy Conservation Act, [EPCA] was enacted into
                 law by Congress in 1975, and established Corporate Average
                 Fuel Economy [CAFE] standards for passenger cars and light
                 trucks. The Act was passed in response to the 1973-74 Arab
                 oil embargo. The stated near-term goal was to double new car
                 fuel economy by model year 1985.
                    "Carter insisted that U.S. automakers build more
                     fuel-efficient cars, with a goal of 27.5 miles per gallon
                     over the following decade - a requirement passed under
                     Gerald Ford but put into force by Carter."
                     You are wrong, but too stupid to realize it.
                     \_ So the Ford admin created it and passed it but Carter
                        should get credit for it and you think I'm the dumb
                        one here.  Okey dokey!  Go Jimmy!  Woot!  You *can*
                        credit him with saying "nucular" all the time.  That's
                        good for 15 minutes.
                        good for 15 minutes.  Your own quote backs what I'm
                        saying: CAFE wasn't Carter's.
                        \_ The law was passed before Carter, but Carter set
                           the initial stringent standards, which were then
                           raised during his adminstration. If we had followed
                           those standards, we would use 25-35% less oil today.
                           Reagan lowered those standards. If you bothered to
                           actually read up on the topic, you would see that
                           I am correct.
                           \_ Correct about what exactly?  The initial
                              standards were pathetic.  They were later
                              ping ponged around and today it's 27.5 for
                              cars and 20.5 for light trucks including most
                              SUVs.  I'd like to see a link for that 25%
                              number you keep bandying about.  And yeah, I've
                              only got about a dozen links and pdfs open for
                              this idiotic topic, most of them .gov sites.
                              My research skills suck.  If only I could have
                              found some quality links from a Kennedy clansman.
                              \_ Hey, are you dissing
                              \_ If by ping ponging, you mean raised by Carter
                                 and then lowered by Reagan, you are correct.
                                 I think it was raised by 1 MPG by Bush I.
                                 Sierra club guy says we could have saved
                                 3 to 4 M BBL/day, which is 15-20%, but I
                                 think it would be higher if we had the 48 MPG
                                 fleet average proposed by Carter and no SUV
                                 exemption, instead of our current 23 MPG.
                                 2/3 our oil is spent on transportation,
                                 double fuel economy would mean that we would
                                 use half as much fuel on transportation,
                                 hence 25%. I need to get back to work, but
                                 you can be sure that I have researched this
                                 \_ Researched this at more high quality sites
                                    like  Do you have
                                    quotes from <DEAD><DEAD> too?
                                    \_ no, that is what google pulled up
                                       in a hurry. I have spent a lot longer
                                       researching this that you and you have
                                       not really bothered to actually bothered
                                       to. Read up on it and we can talk some
                                       more later. You just don't know what
                                       you are talking about. The vast
                                       majority of our oil today is burned
                                       in cars and SUVs.
                                       \_ And did you learn that from
                                          <DEAD><DEAD>?  How much of your
                                          heavy research did it take to figure
                                          out it takes more energy to move big,
                                          heavy objects?
                                       \_ The "holier than thou" thing is a
                                          really distasteful way to walk away.
                                          If you don't have the time and can't
                                          prove what you're saying when the
                                          links start flying, just step out
                                          and try again when you're prepared.
                                          "I'm smarter than you and know more
                                          than you but I'm too busy to prove
                                          it with links worth clicking on"
                                          isn't flying.  Carter: bad President.
                                          And frankly even if CAFE was his idea
                                          and he chose extremely high standards
                                          and demonstrated the leadership
                                          required to make those standards
                                          stick, he would still have sucked
                                          as President, but at least then he'd
                                          have *one* positive thing to lay
                                          claim to for his 4 years.
                                 \_ Then you can save me the trouble and find
                                    something that says Carter wanted 48 and
                                    the current is 23.  Sierra Club?  They
                                    say a lot of things but aren't exactly an
                                    unbiased source.  How about a .gov url
                                    instead of some axe grinders?
                                    \_ Sorry have to work. Later.
              \_ Or how about this?
                 "In 1975, Congress mandated separate Corporate Average Fuel
                 Economy (CAFE)... [These] requirements where passed with
                 bipartisan support and signed into law by President Gerald
                 Ford."  A search for Carter in that pdf yields nothing.
        \_ Carter invented the internet..
           \_ Pshaw!  We all know Gore did that.
              \_ No, Al Gore invented the algorithm. It even bares his
                 name, AlGore-ithm.
                 \_ Carter invented the carts.  He named his family after his
                    \_ I somehow doubt the current president will ever claim
                       to have invented the bush, however.
           \_ Actually, Nixon did.  The first IMPs were deployed in 1969.
              So what exactly did Carter do that was useful and noteworthy?
2006/1/11-13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:41344 Activity:high
1/11    Wow, Ford introducing an even BIGGER SUV!
        It reportedly also comes with a brandy rack!
        \_ Not really.  It's smaller than the Excursion that Ford killed, and
           the Chevy Suburban.
        \_ Whatever.  People should be able to guzzle as much gas as they can
           afford.  On the other hand, I think they should be taxed/charged/
           whatever based on their emissions.  (including CO2)
           \_ emissions are directly proportional to fuel consumption.  -tom
              \_ Catalytic converters, diesel filters, diesel refinement tech..
                 all of this only happens when it's legislated.  If people
                 actually paid less when they had a cleaner car, we'd have
                 even better tech.
                 \_ This unlikely in my opinion.  CARB already discourages
                    many changes to cars that would improve emissions.
                    I believe that the current bureaucracy, is based more
                    on making money and expanding the empire than anything
                    else.  I'd love to see testing based just on emissions,
                    but we are far away from that. --jwm
                    \_ Reread what I put; I phrased it badly.  I agree with you.
                       \_ I see what you're saying now, in the context of
                          "I think they should be taxed/charged/whatever based
                           on their emissions", I was saying that I don't think
                           the goverment is capable of doing this.  But as you
                           say if we payed for emmisions, things would probably
                           clean up fast. --jwm
           \_ No, they should be charged based on emissions, fuel use (like
              now) and weight, with discounts for whether the above actually
              go towards some use--so Fred the gardener in his big pickup
              doesn't pay anywhere near what Bob the lawyer in his Escalade
              has to shell out.  I drive a sports car, which uses a lot of gas
              compared to, say, a small hybrid, and I'm willing to pay
              accordingly.  It also burns relatively clean for a gasoline
              engine, and does not tear up the roads nearly as much as a big
              SUV.  Although to be honest, I've never seen a formula that
              does a nice, fair and unexploitable job of actually allocating
              costs for driving where they belong... -John
              \_ people should pay for whatever the cost of driving is,
                 period. Trying to implement something that penalizes
                 people for being able to afford SUVs is like trying
                 to tax the riches a lot more in Socialism. Evil.
              \_ There is already a gas guzzler fee slapped on a car's purchase
                 price at the dealership by the state of CA.  The amount and
                 the type of vehicle's they target aren't rationally chosen,
                 but such a thing is already going on.  I paid $1400 extra for
                 my car even though the SUV next to it got worse gas mileage
                 because my car has a bigger engine.  Why would we give Fred
                 the gardener a freebie to drive his black smoke spewing truck
                 to tend your grass while Bob's cleaner burning higher gas
                 mileage Escalade gets tagged with a fee on his way to court
                 carrying several boxes of papers and his staff in an attempt
                 to save a dozen old ladies from yet another unfair ED case?
                 \_ Like I said, I've never seen a system that fairly deals
                    with this.  Wasn't there some massive tax loophole for
                    SUVs in the US, as well as a CAFE exemption, or have I
                    been living under a rock?  -John
                    \_ There was something about a tax break for buying a
                       "work" vehicle over a certain price or size or something
                       which happened to include Hummers.
        \_ gas price is going down again, of course they're gonna sell like
           hot cakes again.
           \_ I don't know about that.  Crude is still hovering around $64
              per barrel.  Granted, at these prices, Canadian oil sands
              and Brazilian style sugar cane ethanol are cost effective.
              China and India will still be trying to gobble up the next
           \_ I still think slap $1 per gallon of Federal taxes to fund
              hybrid/fuel cell technology is a good idea.  It will discourage
              people from driving cars that is excess in size, and it will
              actually cut down on our dependency on Foreign oil so we don't
              have to invade another country to control it.
              \_ Who is to decide what "excess in size" means?  Anyway, new
                 water sources and arable land are harder to find than new
                 oil and are running out faster.  Worry more about what you'll
                 eat and drink tomorrow than what car someone else drives.
                 \_ Stop watering your lawn.  If you want to enjoy green grass,
                    go to a park.
                    \_ Go look up how much water is spent by people in CA and
                       how much goes into farming silly things like alfalfa.
                       You're very flip for someone who might not have anything
                       to drink in 30 years but at least you'll get some nice
                       fluff on your burger today.
                       \_ Erm, alfalfa is a feed crop.  If you want that burger,
                          you shouldn't think alfalfa is silly.
                          \_ Farming in CA is mostly silly.  Farming what they
                             farm here where they farm it is ridiculous.  Yes,
                             alfalfa is mostly a feed crop but it isn't
                             efficient and if the central valley farmers had to
                             pay anything close to the real cost of water,
                             alfalfa wouldn't be grown by many, if any, of
                             them in CA.
2005/12/12-14 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40971 Activity:nil
12/12   Hybrid Camry pictures:
2005/11/16-17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:40615 Activity:nil
        Inflation moderates as gas prices dip. Yay! Now we can buy
        our hummers and still feel good about inexpensive gas.
        \_ If you only drive it occasionally, sure.
2005/11/3-4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:40414 Activity:nil
11/3    The riots keep going and going...
        \_ Guess they should have let them keep their headscarves.
2005/11/2-4 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:40404 Activity:nil
        SUV sales in free fall.  w00t!!
        \_ "Detroit relies on SUVs for about half its unit sales, a much higher
            percentage than foreign automakers." Stupid fucking moron assholes.
            The penalty for idiocy *should* be failure.  Too bad the assembly
            line workers have to pay the price for the fucktards who run the
            Detroit auto companies.
                \_ Detroit still hasn't figured out how to make a dime on a
                   passenger car, SUVs were their lifeline.
                   \_ They simply didn't try. I feel nothing but contempt
                      for companies who in the presence of a strong competitor
                      move to a different market segment to avoid the
                      competition. Such companies keep being driven out of all
                      profitable market segments until they have nothing left
                      (witness how Detroit's SUVs are still mostly truck based
                      while Japanese and Europeans have plenty of newer
                      car-based and cross-over SUV models which seem to become
                      more popular). A cure to their problem is to spend more
                      money on R&D of new models instead of hoping that 10 year
                      old gimmicks like Chevy Cavalier will continue selling.
                      Detroit seems to have had learned its lesson though I am
                      not sure whether that'll be sufficient for them to
                      maintain their market leadership position at this point.
                      \_ I dunno. Saturn, for instance, defies this idea.
                         Remember, too, that makes like Jaguar, Land
                         Rover, Saab, and Volvo are also 'American' now.
                         Cadillac also has been reinventing cars, as has
                         Chrysler (which is not American now, I know).
                         \_ Saturn is just one GM brand and I am not sure
                            how it defies that idea. I still see a lot more
                            Hondas, Toyatas, VWs, and whatnot on the streets
                            compared to Saturn. Yes, my understanding is that
                            foreign aquisitions might help with certain areas
                            of expertize. Some of Ford's platforms rely on
                            Mazda designs and GM designated its German Opel as
                            the division responsible for designing car
                            platforms. M-B might have had a hand in the success
                            of the Chrysler 300C.
                            \_ You said they didn't try. They did try. They've
                               failed, but they've tried. It's not like they
                               are rolling out the same old cars. Look at,
                               for instance, Ford's new Mustang and T-bird.
                               No one is buying them, but Ford is trying. If
                               anything, it's been Honda and Toyota rolling out
                               similar Accords and Camrys for years now and
                               dumping cool cars like Prelude. I think
                               it's reputation for reliability rather than
                               R&D on new models.
                               \_ Actually, Mustang is supposedly selling well.
                                  It's now the most sold sports car in the US.
                                  The new T-Bird looked pretty slick but it's a
                                  little on the expensive side. Maybe that's
                                  why it's on the way out.
                                  \_ The Mustangs certainly are everywhere. And
                                     I think the T-Birds were really only bought
                                     by people who had one or wanted one back in
                                     the '50s and were after that nostalgia
                                     factor. Actually, the new Mustangs take
                                     advantage of nostalgia in their styling as
                                     well. -gm
                         \_ I am not sure how Saturn is just one GM brand
                            and I am not sure how defies that idea. I still
                            see a lot more Hondas, Toyatas, VWs, and whatnot
                            on the streets compared to Saturn. Yes, my
                            understanding is that foreign aquisitions might
                            help with certain areas of expertize. Some of
                            Ford's platforms rely on Mazda designs and GM
                            designated its German Opel as the division
                            responsible for designing car platforms. M-B
                            might have had a hand in the success of the Chrysler
2005/11/1-4 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:40391 Activity:low
11/1    WHAT?! Could this possibly be true? " Sarkozy says that violence
        in French suburbs is a daily fact of life. Since the start of the
        year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to
        40 cars are torched"
        \_ French cops won't go into a lot of suburban areas--I've not seen
           anything equivalent in the US to the massive areas of highrises
           you get in Italy, France, Spain and Germany--the crime is mad, and
           there's usually fairly volatile mixtures of African/N. African/
           E. European immigrants and very poor natives.  -John
           \_ How does a place get so bad even the cops won't go there?
              That's maddness.
              \_ They allow way too many poor immigrants in and provide free
                 housing for them in concentration. Why they do this is
                 \_ cheap labor
                 \_ No, they just end up there because the housing is
                    inexpensive and many of the ethnic communities are the
                    natural place for new, poor immigrants to gravitate to.
                    Look at the the historical concentration of Russian,
                    Irish, Swedish, Mexican, Chinese, Puerto Rican, Irish,
                    Italian, &c arrivals to the US in the 19th century.  -John
                    \_ You making some kind of point about the Irish?  -mice
                       \_ Yeah, you wanna step outside for GUN DUEL, yer
                          corkie barstird?  -John
                          \_ Don't make me BLACKLIST you, ya limey barstard.
                             \_ Sigh. We need more controversial words.
                                \_ I bet you never used controversial words.
                                   \_ I bet BUD DAY doesn't appreciate your
                                      tone, son.
2005/10/22-24 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:40225 Activity:very high
10/21   Dear house owners. How much time/week do you spend on house upkeep?
        In another word, how much time do you spend on mowing the lawn,
        pulling weeds, adding fertilizers, watering bald spots, adjusting
        sprinklers, cleaning up the garage (which by the way is used for
        storage instead of storing the car), changing toilet assemblies,
        spraying pesticides, and other things? If you pay someone to do
        it and spend no time on it, please respond with the price you
        pay. I'm asking because as the only son who grew up in the suburbs,
        I had to do all of the above and I HATED IT. I just want to
        find out how much time and/or money grown-ups spend on these
        things, and why people like the routine suburbia lifestyle. Thanks.
        \_ Gardener, 1/wk, $120/month.  House cleaner, 1/wk, 2 persons 4
           hours each, $70/wk.
        \_ Maid service 2/month: $80x2.  A few hours/month on other stuff and
           of course the garage is used for storge.  It was designed for it.
           Why do people like the suburbs?  They don't necessarily.  If you
           have kids putting them in a city school can be disasterous.  Look
           at the SF school system for an example of that.  Lack of space for
           same kids in city.  Lots of people don't like the cramped and often
           loud and/or dirty city living option.  Many other "the city isn't
           where I'd want to be" reasons.  The suburbs are just where you can
           live and still be close enough to have a job.  So you changed toilet
           assemblies so your mom wouldn't have to?  Ok, she could pay a
           plumber to do it and there'd be that many fewer toys at Xmas.  I did
           chores.  You did chores.  Kids do chores (or should).  Welcome to
           the middle class.  There are worse things that could've happened to
           you growing up.
        \_ simple.  buy a tonwhouse.  save lots of trouble.
           \_ How is the SF school system disasterous? Last I checked, they
           \_ How is the SF school system disastrous? Last I checked, they
              were better than the statewide average and the West side high
              schools are particularly good. -ausman
              \_ You're kidding right?  And how do you get into one of those
                 elite schools?  And if you don't, then what?  And if you
                 don't live near your school which is likely how does your
                 kid get there?  Can a grade schooler drive?  Can every
                 high schooler afford a car?  Sit on a bus for a few hours
                 each day?  C'mon....
                 \_ You get into Lincoln and Washington just like you get into
                    every high school in San Francisco. If you have good enough
                    test scores, you get into Lowell and get an education as
                    good as the priciest private school. I grew up in a rural
                    region and took a bus 1/2 hr each way until I could afford
                    to buy my own car. I did not find that particularly onerous.
                    Do you really think it takes "a few hours" to get anywhere
                    in a city that is 7 miles by 8 miles? I could walk anywhere
                    in The City in less than a few hours.
                    I just pulled down the STAR results for San Francisco and
                    compared them to Orange and Riverside Counties, two
                    California suburban counties and they compare favorably.
                    \_ How long ago were you in school?  Read the papers to
                       see what's going on there today.  And yes, a school
                       bus has to make many stops, obey traffic laws cars
                       tend to ignore and drive slow, so yeah, an hour or
                       more each way wouldn't be odd.  I've walked across the
                       city from the market area west to the beach.  You're
                       not saying a kid should walk that to school?  Why do
                       you even mention walking?  And here's a concept: why
                       should a kid have to get high test scores to get into
                       a particular school on the other side of the city?
                       Why can't the local school be as good as any other?
                       Why is there a tiny number of elite schools and the
                       rest are dismal anti-academic pits?
                       \_ Why isn't everyone above average, is that what
                          you are seriously asking? It is obvious that
                          \_ Not every school can be above average, but every
                             school can and should be good.
                             \_ Lowell is elite because they are very
                                selective about their admission criteria.
                                \_ Are you implying that non-selective schools
                                   cannot be good?  Otherwise I fail to
                                   understand how your point respond to the
                                   previous poster's that all schools should
                                   be good.  In any case, Lowell entrance is
                                   selective only if you're a non-protected
                                   minority.  Entrance for protected minorities
                                   is relatively easy, no?
                                   \_ No, I honestly don't think all schools
                                      can be good. Can you point to one
                                      school in an impoverished area that is
                                      good? Schools can only do so much.
                                      Lowell is a great school because it is
                                      selective. There are good schools in
                                      San Francisco and elsewhere that are not
                                      "selective" overtly, but they still
                                      select from an educated and privileged
                                      section of the population.
                                      Having said that, yes it is too bad
                                      that we don't do a better job educating
                                      everyone. Holding up SF schools as an
                                      example of a disastrous failure is not
                                      a very strong one.
                                   is relatively trivial, no?
                                      \_ So good schools are good because they
                                         only let in smart kids?  So you're
                                         saying it doesn't matter how much
                                         funding, what teachers, which books,
                                         or anything else; just put all the
                                         smart kids together and you get a
                                         good school.  And the opposite is
                                         true?  Put the less than brilliant
                                         kids together and you get a bad
                                         school?  It seems the way to get
                                         decent but not fantastic schools for
                                         everyone is to spread those smart
                                         kids around.
                                         \_ Perhaps, but I don't know how you
                                            are going to convince parents to
                                            do that. If you really believe
                                            what you preach, why didn't you
                                            go to SJ State instead of UCB?
                                            By the way, your technique is
                                            practiced in many states throughout
                                            the upper midwest, to good effect,
                                            so you certainly have a point.
                                         \_ When I went to Lowell, it was
                                            massively underfunded and falling
                                            apart at the seams.  It was a good
                                            school that produced excellent
                                            students due to a combination of
                                            letting in smart people, who didn't
                                            drag the other people in their
                                            classes down, and great, dedicated
                                            teachers.  Naturally this is a
                                            generalization--there were a few
                                            morons, both students and teachers.
                                            However, their negative effect was
                                            minimal due to the above.  No, not
                                            everyone can be a winner, life is
                                            not fair.  And yes, most students
                                            there "had" to commute.  Like a
                                            lot of Cal students commute-you
                                            do it because you value the
                                            education over your comfort. -John
                                         \_ I read a research study on this
                                            for colleges, not high schools.
                                            The conclusion is that the school
                                            only matters in one case - a
                                            top student goes to a bad school.
                                            then the student's achievement
                                            could be affected.  in all other
                                            cases - good student going to
                                            good school, or midrange school,
                                            average student going to good
                                            school or average school or bad
                                            school, etc., the school doesn't
                                            make a difference.
                          you nothing about San Francisco schools and
                          barely anything about San Francisco. K-6 schools
                          barely anything about San Francisco. K-5 schools
                          are mostly within walking distance and high schoolers
                          take MUNI, not a school bus. My commute to work
                          is 35-45 minutes, I don't see why my (future) teenage
                          daughter shouldn't have a similar commute.
                          \_ Because she's a kid and kids shouldn't have to
                             commute.  You have a choice in the matter.  Your
                             child is stuck with your decisions.  That you
                             can't see that is oddly disturbing.
                             \_ It is nice that you want to give your child
                                every advantage in the world, but it might
                                set them up for some dissapointments when
                                they have to face the real world.
                                \_ Uhm, so you're "toughening her up"?  The
                                   real world is there in her face every day.
                                   I could go on but our philosophies are so
                                   different anything more I say would look
                                   like a personal insult and there's no need
                                   for that.  I'm ok agreeing to disagree if
                                   you are.  I'm stopping now.
                                   \_ I grew up in a rural area, where I had
                                      to get up at dawn to feed the chickens
                                      ducks and rabbits, collect the eggs
                                      and prepare breakfast for my seven
                                      siblings. Then I got on a half hour
                                      bus ride to school. After school, I helped
                                      in the garden, washed my own clothes and
                                      spent an hour a night washing dishes or
                                      doing other chores. I think that growing
                                      up like that made me a better person than
                                      my spoiled and self-indulgent classmates.
                                      I don't intend for my child to have that
                                      hard a life, but I don't want her to end
                                      up a spoiled princess either.
                                      my narcissistic and self-indulgent class-
                                      mates. I don't intend for my child to have
                                      that hard a life, but I don't want her to
                                      to work that hard, but I don't want her to
                                      end up a spoiled princess either.
                                      \- hear hear.
                          And you plan on moving to the suburbs to escape
                          what you percieve as "disastrous" urban schools,
                          but you decry the fact that some people prefer to
                          send their kids to better urban schools? Have you
                          ever heard of the term "hypocrisy"?
                          send their kids to better urban schools? Maybe the
                          reason some schools aren't as good as they might
                          be is because a bunch of overly fearful parents
                          moved to the suburbs to isolate themselves from
                          poor people and other "dangerous" sorts. The truth
                          is that the cities are no more dangerous than the
                          suburbs, it is just that the risks are different.
                          \_ What he is asking is why everyone isn't able
                             to obtain a quality education in SF. The best
                             schools are so much better than even the
                             average schools. This is different from, say,
                             LA Unified where pretty much all the schools suck
                             equally. Personally, I'd avoid public schools
                             altogether. If you can afford to live in SF
                             then you can afford a private school.
                             \_ Lots of parents look for houses in areas with
                                good schol disctricts, so they can send their
                                kids to public schools and apply the money
                                that would have gone to a private school
                                tuition to the mortgage instead.  The question
                                is whether it's to educational benefit of
                                children (in the aggregate, assuming a random
                                distribution of children) to live in a city
                                like San Francisco, where they have a chance
                                to end up in some truly awful schools, or in
                                a city like San Jose, where the quality range
                                of school is narrower, or in a suburban town,
                                where the quality range is narrow indeed.
                                There are of course non-educational pros and
                                cons for living in each city, and the emphasis
                                placed on education varies from family to
                                family.  But, I suspect, using San Francisco
                                as an example, unless one has a reasonable
                                I suspect, unless one has a reasonable
                                expectation that one's child will end up in
                                one of the top few schools, it's better for
                                the child's education to live in a town where
                                the likelihood of going to a bad school is low.
                                family.  But, I suspect, unless one has a
                                reasonable expectation that one's child will
                                end up in one of the top few schools, it's
                                better for the child's education to live in a
                                town where the likelihood of going to a bad
                                school is low.
                                There are of course non-educational pros and
                                cons for living in each city, and the emphasis
                                placed on education varies from family to
                                \_ You are guaranteed one of your top three
                                   choices of high schools in San Francisco.
                                   So just put down Washington, Lincoln and
                                   Wallenbeg and you are guaranteed a good
                                   school in a safe neighborhood. Any irrational
                                   fear of something else bad happening to you
                                   is simply that, an irrational fear.
                                   \_ Ok so if *everyone* is *guaranteed* one
                                      of their top three choices, why doesn't
                                      everyone in SF put down the same three
                                      top schools and leave all the rest
                                      \_ All right, I guess I was wrong. I was
                                      \_ All right, I guess I misspoke. I was
                                         repeating what I had read in The
                                         Examiner. It seems that you have to
                                         put down 7 choices and even then they
                                         Examiner. I guess you have to put
                                         down 7 choices and even then they
                                         not guaranteed. The Examiner claims
                                         that 99% of parents get one of their
                                         top three choices, at least in 2003.
                                         Circumstances, can of course change.
                                         But they can change anywhere, even in
                                         a tony suburb.
                                         \_ So, living in a city like SF _does_
                                            mean your kid can end up in a
                                            shitty school on the other side of
                                            town and there's nothing you can
                                            do about it?  Thus, we see a very
                                            good reason for parents to live in
                                            a place where there is no chance of
                                            going to a bad school and a good
                                            chance of a better school.  It
                                            means sacrificing the cool city
                                            life but sacrificing is what good
                                            parents do.
                                            \_ Or you can spend more time with
                                               your kids to make sure they do
                                               well in their studies / get into
                                               good schools.
                                               \_ You do realize that your
                                                  solution is not scalable.
                                                  \_ In what sense? If you have
                                                     lots of children? Or to all
                                                     \_ The latter mostly,
                                                        though the former to a
                                                        lesser degree also.
                                                     \_ Your solution only works
                                                        if most parents do not
                                                        stress their kids'
                                                        education.  If many
                                                        parents try to make
                                                        sure their kids do
                                                        well in their studies,
                                                        then almost none of
                                                        them can have a
                                                        reasonable expectation
                                                        of getting into the top
                                                        few schools.
                                            \_ In the 1% case, you can either:
                                               a) send your kids to private school
                                               a) send your kids to private
                                               b) move to the suburbs then.
                                               This is what I plan on doing, if
                                               I talk my wife into it. -ausman
                         \_ So the solution to the problem of not every student
                            getting a quality education in a city is to move
                            to a gated suburb and isolate yourself from the
                            rest of the world? Perhaps the real question is
                            why doesn't every student get a quality education
                            everywhere, but asking that question might force
                            the questioner to admit some of the responsibility
                            for the failure onto themselves, which they seem
                            spectacularly unable or unwilling to do.
                            \_ Uhm, where are all these 'gated suburbs' of
                               which you speak?  Could you point out a few
                               because I haven't seen any.  I do like your
                               rhetorical bit in the second half though.  A
                               nice combination of 'high horse-ism', a touch
                               of holier-than-thou mixed with a dash of
                               you-selfish-bastard.  Could you possibly take
                               a moment to explain how a city school in some
                               other county sucking is in any way the fault
                               of someone in a suburb, mythically gated or
                               not, 20+ miles away?
                               \_ Because there are only so many dollars in
                                  the world and so many gifted teachers. If
                                  Blackhawk takes more than its share, then
                                  there is less to go around to the rest.
                                  I am kind of astonished that I would have
                                  to explain this to an engineer.
                                  Shorebird Islands in Redwood City and
                                  Silver Creek Valley Country Club in San
                                  Jose are gated, two that I found using
                                  google in sixty seconds. Since 40% of new
                                  developments in California are gated, you
                                  must not have looked very hard.
                                  \_ Redwood City and SJ?  Yech.  I would never
                                     live in such a place so you're right, I
                                     didn't look very hard in such places.
                                     Anyway, what you seem to be saying is that
                                     a district that can afford to pay teachers
                                     better is somehow cheating and robbing a
                                     poorer district of their rightfully
                                     deserved quality teachers.  However, we
                                     see John posting that Lowell was a broken
                                     pit when he went there and someone else
                                     posted about a study (yes, college, not
                                     HS, but it's what we've got) that said
                                     good students tend to do well where ever
                                     they go and bad students do poorly and
                                     etc.  So what exactly are the people in
                                     SJ stealing from SF?  Smart kids?
                                     \_ It wasn't a total loss; it was very
                                        mediocre and underfunded in terms of
                                        infrastructure, not some slum.  I read
                                        some figures at the time that LHS got
                                        fraction of the average per student $$
                                        of other SF public high schools--the
                                        rumor about at the time was that a few
                                        of the more crackpot supervisors like
                                        Harry Britt didn't like the idea of an
                                        "elite" school paid for by tax dollars
                                        and tried to kill it.  Whatever--what
                                        made it was the combination of really
                                        good and dedicated teachers and high
                                        qualiy (i.e. selected) students.  -John
                                        \_ Don't 50% of the graduates go to
                                           Stanford, Berkeley and or an Ivy?
                                           That sounds like a pretty good
                                           school to me.
                                           \_ It is (was?) a great school.
                                              That is my point.  It was so
                                              to a large degree because they
                                              only let good/smart students in
                                              and were able to focus on giving
                                              them a good education.  This
                                              seems to be some sort of elitist
                                              taboo in some cirles.  -John
                                              \_ Not elitist, but it sort
                                                 of disregards cause/effect.
                                                 If all you accept are
                                                 smart kids then you will
                                                 have a 'good school' by
                                                 the measures the state
                                                 uses. That school may or
                                                 may not actually be better.
                                     \_ You have never heard of Blackhawk? You
                                        are just a troll, wasting my time.
                                        \_ Blackhawk houses are all multi-
                                           million bucks.  That is hardly the
                                           suburbs or a typical gated
                                           community.  Famous/rich sports
                                           stars, actors, and the 'captains
                                           of industry' live there.  You're
                                           welcome to try again.
                                           \_ I sang at Behring's house last
                                              Christmas.  Good freakin' god.
                                              30k sq. ft. is a LOT of room.
                                              I think he's the only one
                                              anywhere in Blackhawk that
                                              actually knows how to spend his
                                              wealth well.  His gem and mineral
                                              collection is incredible.  He
                                              has some stunning ivory carvings
                                              in there as well.  Haven't seen
                                              his car museum yet, but it could
                                              be fun.
                                           \_ Blackhawk is not in the suburbs?
                                              Where is it then?
                                              \_ Mogadishu
                                      \_ No, I never stated or implied that anyone
                                         was "stealing" anything. That was your
                                         emotionally charged response to my
                                         suggestion that you are at least
                                         partially responsible for creating the
                                         kind of world you live in. When people
                                         with intelligence, talent, drive and
                                         creativity abandon a community, that
                                         community suffers. One certainly has
                                         the right to excercise your free will
                                         and abandon it, but to do so and then
                                         turn around and criticize that very
                                         same community for the consequences of
                                         your actions seems bizarre.
        \_ the one thing berkeley taught me is you don't have to live
           the boring, conformist, suburban life if you don't want to.
           \_ What I always found hilarious about a lot of Berkeley students
              is how uniquely concerned with being "nonconformist" so many of
              them were, instead of just getting on with their lives.  -John
              \_ I agree, and not just Berkeley but the whole Bay Area.
                 OTOH, if you venture outside of Berkeley/Bay
                 OTOH, when you venture outside of Berkeley/Bay
                 Area after graduation, the experience at Berkeley is a
                 good thing, in my opinion.
           \_ so you're living the same nonconformist life style everyone
              else in the bay area is?
              \_ don't feel offended.  if you want to live the boring,
                 conformist, suburban life, you are free to do so.
                 \_ offended? no one is offended.  quite the opposite. i
                    think your claims to kewlness are cute.
                    \_ "claims to kewlness"?  what've you been smoking?
                       I live in a city derided in a movie, or so I heard,
                       as the suburb of suburbs.
                       \_ then what are you talking about?
                          \_ huh?  what are you talking about?
                             \_ what are the two of you talking about?
                       \_ Ok, I've got to ask...what city do you live in? -!pp
                          \_ Must be LA.
                             \_ Or a suburb of chicago.
        \_ My downstairs tenants do all the gardening for free. I have to
           pay for things like plants and fertilizer, so it costs me about
           $10/mo. I have had to have two bathrooms rebuilt since I bought
           this place, which cost about $9k and took up at least three
           weekends of my time. I paid people to do most of the work, but
           I bought and delivered all the parts. I built a methlab in the
           I bought and delivered all the parts. I built a shed in the
           backyard from a kit, which cost me $500 and took up four weekends.
           As for cleaning, I spend the same amount as I did when I had
           an apartment, maybe a bit less, since my wife is less of a slob
           than my roommates were. -ausman
2005/10/21-24 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:40212 Activity:low
10/21   Used Lexus LS 430 year 2002, 74000 miles for $28000. Interior
        exterior look nice, seller is a friend. Good/bad deal?
        \_ Uh, 74K in 3-4 years?
        \_ Check
             \_ it's around $27-29k depending on the condition of the car.
        \_ Not a great deal, IMO. The miles are too high. Same car with
           20K miles would be a decent deal. These cars don't cost more
           than $40K new.
           \_ This is a $55k new car.
              \_ Whoops! I confused the LS and the ES!
        \_ For that price, I would not buy a used car.
           \_ A new Toyota Avalon seems like a good "poor man's" replacement
              for a mid-sized Luxury vehicle in this price range.
           \_ Seconded. Why would you get a used Lexus w/ 74K miles
              when you could get a NEW Legacy GT for the same price?
                \_ Because The Lexus LS is one of the best luxury cars on the
                   market (Bill Gates drives one) and a Legacy GT is a Legacy
        \_ Sounds like a decent deal, assuming the 74000 miles are mostly
           highway miles.  Toyotas are very reliable and the Lexus LS series
           is one of the most reliable Toyotas.  Yes, it costs $55K new but
           once you add a few options, taxes, and other stuff the new car
           might cost closer to $70K.
           might cost closer to $70K.  Oh, and it is not very fuel efficient
           unless you compare it to an SUV.  It's a heavy, tank like car with
           a gigantic V8 engine.  It also has a serenely quiet drive, the
           best sonically insulated car I've ever driven.
           \_ 4.3 liters is not "gigantic" for a V8.
                \_ Okay, "a gigantic engine (V8)" happy?
                   \_ Hmm, I think I'd go with big over gigantic either way.
                      A 2.0L is smallish, 3.0 just is, 4.3 is big, 5.0 is
                      pretty huge, the 8.0L Dodge Viper V10 is gigantic.
                                                   --annoying pedant
                      \_ yea, but your 2 inch penis is still classified
                         as ... tiny.               - dumb troll
2005/10/19-21 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40185 Activity:high
10/19   Let's reinstate the 55mph limit.  "For every mile per hour faster
        than 55 mph, fuel economy drops by about 1 percent, said Jason Mark,
        clean vehicles program director for the Union of Concerned Scientists.
        The drop-off increases at a greater rate after 65 mph. The faster you
        go, the faster the fuel goes."
        \_ my suggestion is impose $1.5 per gallon of federal tax on gasoline
           and people will go green as result.  We can use the money to
           really fix the road and provide research funds for things like
           automated highway, fuel cell research, etc.
        \_ better yet, lets go back to walking, bicycles, and horse and buggy.
           Gasoline usage drops 100%.  Fatalities due to dangerous speeds
           drop drastically too.  No more dependence on foreign oil!
        \_ Fuck speed limits.  The average travel speed has been going down for
           years, because on average people just keep spending more and more
           time sitting in traffic.  Throw in the extra time spent working to
           pay for the stupid ass car habit, and you actually aren't going
           any slower by biking to work.  -anticartroll
        \_ Since this seems to be "right vs. good" week, how about making it
           voluntary?  Educate people about how much they'll save, and they
           can decide for themselves whether driving slow is worth it to them
           on any given occasion.  If you're worried that it's hard to drive
           55 when everyone else is going 80, you could reserve some freeway
           lanes for slow drivers, without mandating it for everyone all the
           time.  If your goal is to reduce dependence on oil rather than just
           to save people money, then you can also impose extra taxes on oil
           to encourage conservation -- not only will this make people drive
           slower on average (while still allowing them to drive fast when
           they need to), it'll also give them an incentive to save oil in
           other ways (buying more efficient cars, closing the windows, etc.).
           \_ Well, how fast will you be driving on the freeways?
           \_ So how fast do you plan to drive on the freeway?
              \_ I vote for 60mph.  --- !PP
        \_ Wouldn't this depend on which car?  Maybe some cars get
           optimal fuel efficiency at 55, and others at 70.  Might
           also depend if you are going uphill, have the windows open,
           \_ Wind resistance roughly doubles between 55 mph and 70 mph.
              At 55 mph, "tire resistance" and wind resistance for a typical
              car are about equal. -!op
           \_ I spent one week in truck doing 55 and the next week doing 70
              to see how much I would save and my gas usage was about the same.
              One week is most of a tank for me so it was enough data.
        \_ I call bullshit on this. I've driven 101 from SF to LA plenty of
           times in a BMW with a trip computer monitoring my fuel efficiency
           and found that it was optimal (about 30mpg) at around 70mph.
           \_ BMWs are fairly aerodynamic so they're impacted by wind
              resistance at higher speeds. Their torque band also lies in
              the 3000-5000 range which corresponds to about 70MPH. Not
              all cars are like this.
           \_ You're saying Jason Mark, clean vehicles program director for
              the Union of Concerned Scientists, author of "Greener SUVs: A
              Blueprint for Cleaner, More Efficient Light Trucks" and
              "Zeroing Out Pollution: The Promise of Fuel Cell Vehicles",
              doesn't know what he's talking about?
              \_ I find all statistics suscpicious which don't allow for
                 different kinds of cars.  If you really wanted to cut down
                 on gas consumption, think "trains".  Anyway, regardles of
                 whether he's right or not (he's got a point about the wind
                 resistance, but it affects different cars differently), your
                 post reeks a bit of Mr. Science ("I have a master's degree..
                 in science!")  -John
                 on gas consumption, think "trains".  -John
                 \_ The problem is that it's impractical and dangerous to
                    have a different speed limit for each car model.
                    You need to find a composite speed limit that works
                    \_ Just tell cops to not give tickets to those of us who
                       are RICH WHITE MEN with GOOD CARS and everyone will
                       be happy.  -John
                    best in the aggregate for the distribution of cars out
                    on the road.  BTW, I should have made the sarcasm more
                    obvious when I tried to defer the the UCS guy's
                    authority. -pp
           \_ Yup I hit 31 MPG, the highest I've ever seen, driving on HWY 5
              @ 75 MPH in my Mercedes for a long stretch.  No breaking, flat,
           \_ I tried driving the long stretch on the San Mateo Bridge,
              excluding the incline section, with my '04 Toyota Sienna 2WD van,
              which is more aerodynamic than older minivans.  I drove the whole
              stretch at 55mph, then the whole stretch at 60mph, and again at
              65mph.  I reset the "average MPG meter" (whatever it's called) at
              the beginning of each run, right after I passed the toll booth
              and accelerated to the desired mph.  For the 55mph and the 60mph
              runs, the meter readings were roughly the same.  But for the
              65mph run, the reading was 2-3mph lower.  I didn't use the
              "instant MPG meter" because it fluctuates too much.  -- yuen
        \_ The 55 mph speed limit was based in part on the facts that
           most cars at the time had poor areodynamic design and had
           large engines (v6/v8) that were not particularly efficient.
           In comparison most cars these days have better aerodynamic
           design at all speeds and esp. at high speed (65+ mph). Also
           most cars these days have smaller engines that are far more
           efficient (there are far more c1v1cs on the road than hummers).
           \- conserving to keep stuff cheep just lets other people
              face lower prices. if you want to be active about something
              then lobby for more research in alt energy. or maybe higher
              taxes on gas if you want to punish people with big cars.
              this drive 55 is like turn your thermostat down or do your
              laundry at night. it's better to change the price structure.

           \- should we have say quotas on home energy use? should
              we have legal max thermostat settings?
                 \_ I don't believe in quotas, however I see no prob.
                    w/ imposing higher prices on ppl who use more than
                    the ave. (an luxury tax if you will - pg&e does
                    this already).
                    The legal max thermostat setting is an interesting
                    prob. If the purpose is to limit consumption, then
                    I think no, but if the purpose is to promote health
                    and safety (fire hazard, &c.), then I would say yes
                    b/c regualtion of health and safety is a traditional
                    concern of the state.
              \- i have seen a number of these stats about the marked drop off
                 of efficiency at highers speeds in say AAA literature. i am
                 wondering if they forget or deliberately do not factor in
                 the greater distance travelled in unit time. e.g. there is a
                 difference between volume of fuel burned per minute at
                 55 vs 75 and then there is volume of fuel burned per *mile*
                 at 55 vs 75. ok tnx. --ANONYMOUS DRIVER
                 \_ Don't they usually report gas mileage to begin with?
                    \- i'm talking about stats like the one in the first
                       \P of this thread. you're not sure what they mean.
                       P[ost] of this thread. you're not sure what they mean.
                       \_ It's simple physics; power to overcome wind
                          resistance increases with the cube of velocity.  -tom
        \_ See the mpg vs. mph graph in
           "As a rule of thumb, you can assume that each 5 mph you drive over
           60 mph is like paying an additional $0.21 per gallon for gas."
           BTW, there are other useful gas-saving tips at

2005/10/12-13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:40048 Activity:moderate
10/11 (, click on View and print the Fact)
        Quick comparison between the two auto transmissions:
                        Honda           Toyota
        Compression:    10.8:1          13.0:1  <--- big difference
        Gas HP          85-87HP         76HP
        Elec HP         13.4HP          67HP  <--- big difference
        MPG             47-48MPG        55-60MPG  <--- big difference
        Cost            $20,900         $21,275  <--- little difference
        Sorry, but Honda is clearly a big loser. Their engines suck, their
        electric moter is weak, their mileage is lower, and it's only $300
        cheaper. I don't understand why they even bother to compete.
        \_ looks, my friend.  people go for the looks of it.
        \_ With only 13.4HP, can the Civic run on electricity alone at all?
           \- people buy crappy regular cars. why does it surprise you
              they may buy crappy hybrids.
              \_ But with horsepower as low as 13.4, the engine might need to
                 stay on all the time, which defeats the purpose of having
                 \_ The electric motor's for low speeds, where torque is much
                    more important than peak HP.  Picture a team of 13 horses
                    attached to the front of your car.  They could get it going
                    from a standstill just fine... they just couldn't go 70.
           \_ On the Prius, the electric is used to replace the gas engine in
              low power situations.  On the Civic, its used to augment the
              power of the gas engine so they can use a smaller more efficient
              gas engine than on a conventional Civic.
        \_ can hybrids pass other cars?  Is it safe to pass on a mt. road
           with a hybrid?
           \_ No, it's better to pass with a big SUV like the Ford
              Excursion. It's really cool too.  Even the Hummer looks
              small beside it.
              \_ That guy on the bicycle with the RPG will be me.
        \_ speaking of honda hybrids:
        \_ what is the difference between 2006 Insight and previous version?
           they looked the same.
2005/10/11-13 [Finance/CC, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Recreation/Humor] UID:40045 Activity:high Cat_by:auto
10/11   "I Can't Afford My Gasoline" (has sound)
        \_ Once we hit $6/gallon, those hybrids will start to look attractive,
           \_ It's been over $6/gallon in Europe. Cost me 34 Euro for a half
              tank of gas on a Ford Fiesta (rental car) 2 weeks ago. Figures
              it would cost around $85 for a full tank. And we're taking puny
              \_ do you have a choice?  how about Ford Ka?
                 \_ I don't buy cars that chops heads off of cats.
                 \_ I probably did, but didn't know how to say it in Spanish.
              \_ Where in Europe? Get a SMART.
                \_ Was in Spain (Madrid), I don't think Avis has SMART; besides
                   I don't know if I'd fit in it (too tall).
                   \_ A colleague of mine drives one.  He's 6'6", about 250lbs.
                      He got it because of the leg room.  -John
                   \_ Take the train.
2005/9/24-28 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39855 Activity:high
9/24    Is there a link btwn global warming and hurricanes?
        \_ Thank you. You're right there is not enough data to suggest
           global warming->hurricanes. I will continue driving my SUVs
           because I don't believe in stuff like pollution->cancer.
           I hate it when you liberals accuse me of causing cancer and birth
           defects. There's plenty of air and oil to go around. MY SUV, MY
           property. Keep your liberal laws off of my SUV.              -trl
           \_ Get off the SUV drivers backs ;  anyone driving a gas/diesel
              powered vehicle is guilty, weighted in their actual fuel
              \_ Yes, I agree. Everyone who burns fossil fuel is guilty
                 to the extent that they consume that. What peeves me
                 is that SUV drivers don't pay for their fair share
                 of things. They cause more damage to our roadways from
                 their extra weight, they cause more environmental damage,
                 and they are a greater risk on the road. But SUV drivers
                 get away without paying more in taxes and, in some
                 cases, get tax breaks. So no, I won't get off SUV
                 drivers backs until they pay their fair share.
           \_ Hehe, and it was you liberals (or more accurately you
              environmentalists) who have helped set back atomic energy
              for decades, resulting in our continued dependency on
              inefficient and ultimately hazardous fossil fuels.
              Stuff like renewable energy isn't a real solution to
              the problem. Neither is "ride bike" bullshit. If people
              want a real solution we should start looking into viable
              long-term strategies and not be knee-jerk about it.
              Of course, this will never happen.
              \_ You are a useless sack of shit.   Maybe we can solve
                 the energy crisis by running turbines off of the hot air
                 that comes out of the mouths of jackoff know it all sysadmins
                 like you.
              \_ Hehe, and it was you republicans (or more accurately you
                 SUV drivers) who have needlessly wasted our fuel supply
                 for decades, resulting in our continued dependency on
                 inefficient and ultimately hazardous fossil fuels.
                 Stuff like "Why do you hate America?" isn't a real solution
                 to the problem. Neither is "Why do you support terrorist?"
                 Stuff like invading another country isn't a real solution
                 to the problem. Neither is "Why do you hate America?"
                 bullshit. If people want a real solution we should start
                 looking into viable long-term strategies and not be
                 knee-jerk about it. Of course, this will never happen.
                 \_ Do you understand that the guy you're responding to was the
                    fuckhead who thinks people who don't like the way the 2004
                    election turned out should all move to Canada?
              \_ You are a useless sack of shit.
                 \_ Pot. Kettle. Black.
              \_ Yeah, "real solutions" like invading other countries.
              \_ $6/gallon gasoline tax would take care of the problem
                 pretty quickly. We should make the SUV drivers shoulder
                 the true cost (military, etc) of their gasoline.
                 \_ Troll?  I'll respond anyway but I'll keep it simple:
                    $6/gallon gas tax: dead economy.  Low gas prices pay for
                    themselves by having low prices for everything else.  Do
                    you work?  You won't have a job.  Are you in school?
                    Forget loans and grants.  Forget social programs including
                    education.  We should continue to ignore crack pots with
                    an axe to grind.
                    \_ How'd UK and Japan survive?
                       \_ They're falling apart.  You want to swap economies
                          with either one?
                          \_ Do you equate success and value
                             economic numbers and nothing else?
                             \_ Which economy would you swap with and what
                                positive thing do you think you'd be getting
                                along with your screwed up foreign economy?
                                If you're going to troll, you need to bring
                                your own troll toys to play with.
                          \_ FWIW, Japan's economy is finally having a
                             revival.  It's bad bank debts have been mostly
                             dealt with already.  Buy some Japanese stocks.
                             EWJ perhaps?
                             \_ Granted, they're no longer in a deep recession
                                but would you trade economies with them?  What
                                country would you swap economies with at this
                                \_ Denmark. !op !pp
                                \_ I am not sure what you mean by "swap
                                   economies".  I wouldn't mind swapping a
                                   S&P500 index fund for a TOPIX fund
                                   S&P500 index fund with a TOPIX fund
                                   though, at least for the next year or two.
                                \_ Australia.
                                \_ I would swap economies with any Northern
                                   European nation. I want six weeks of
                                   vacation and six months of paid family
                                   leave. I would pay $6/gallon gasoline
                                   for things like that. I bet over the
                                   next 20 years, as Peak Oil hits, they
                                   will do much better in every way
                                   \_ Must be why so many Swedish white collar
                                      professionals are moving to the UK for
                                      its low (!) taxes.  -John
                                   \ Even the Japanese take more
                       \_ UK economy is pretty strong is it not?
        vacation time than we do and crime is practically
        non-existant compared to the USAnot to mention a great public
        transit system. The cute girls  is a nice perk too  ;-)
        Heck; even moving to canada would be an
        \_ Why do you care?  We just heard that global warming is irreversible
           now.  I'm burning tires for electricity.
2005/9/23-26 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39839 Activity:low
9/23    A Texan said "They're giving $10 worth of gas if you're on empty and
        $5 if you have some. That's not going to get you very far."
        I guess they're not driving Hybrids.
        \_ I think I see a rear door of a Prius behind those four SUVs.
        \_ I think it makes sesne for people to drive their gas-guzzling SUVs
           when they're escaping hurricanes, because those can ford water and
           go over debris.  For daily commute it's a different story.
           go over debris.  For daily commute it's a different story.  On the
           other hand, I realize that hybrids work very well in traffic jams
           because it burns zero "gas" when idling.
           because it burns zero "gas" when idling.  -- foo
           \_ It makes sense for the individual participants, yes. It's basic
              psychology. But look at it this way. When a society faces
              famine, hording happens everywhere. However, hording
              exacerbates food shortage for everyone else, so on and so forth.
              \_ Agreed.  The fed/state should provide more buses for
                 evacuation, and reserve the contraflow lanes for those buses
                 only.  This way they can move a lot more people much faster.
                 (Plus they can take credit like "we evacuated X number of
                 people" instead of "we told X number of people to evacuate".)
                 --- foo
                 \_ Republicans hate big governments. Maybe they should
                    privatize evacuation and emergency facilities as well.
                    They'll definitely run more efficiently and a lot more
                    cost effective than the weak government we have now.
2005/9/20-21 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39767 Activity:nil
        \_ "In Soviet Russia, the car drives YOU" -- Is that you ilyas?
2005/9/17-20 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39738 Activity:kinda low
9/17    Toyota to go 100% hybrid:
        Related Update, Toyota to reduce the price of hybrids: (usatoday)
        (this was mentioned in the first article as well)
        \_ They're going hybrid with the Highlanders, and competitors to
           follow. GREAT! I can't wait to get my Chevy Suburban or Hummer
           hybrids so that I can drive in style for the mere gasoline cost
           of a traditional Honda Accord.
           \_ Sport Utility Vehicles have gotten a lot of bad press lately,
              but they're manufactured for one reason: to transport today's
              modern genetic super breed of wives, kids, and dogs which can
              weigh in excess of 250lbs each.
              \_ Holy shit.  When did everyone upgrade to Marmaduke?
        \_ Toyota has a habit of doing what they say they will.  GM is sooo
           \_ Toyota is like, Microsoft. They can do whatever they want
              and force competitors to catch up. GM/Ford is like Sun Micro,
              they play stupid immature marketing games and come out with
              lamewares like StarOffice or something, and they play the
              number games very well but in the long run it's just fruitless
                \_ in Sun's defense, StarOffice was never meant to be a "real"
                   product.  it was acquired along with a Czech company and
                   for a long time had no support.  Also, one of those stupid
                   immature marketing games was called "Java."
                   \_ Has Sun made any money off of Java yet?
                      \_ Last I heard, IBM made more money of Java than Sun
                         did. This drives the Sun people I know up the wall,
                         more because they dislike IBM than because they like
                         Java. -gm
                      \_ < 200 million last year, FYI.  If soffice
                         product marketing team let me play, I can get
                         a lot further than they got right now.  -sun guy
                         \_ soffice is a pos, I can't believe they make
                            us use it - also a sun guy
                            \_ Nweaver taught me to write in Postscript during
                               our lazy afternoons together.
                               the afternoon times. -sun tranny
                      \_ Java may be not making them money as much as letting
                         them survive, since if everyone used proprietary
                         Windows stuff to run web servers Sun would have been
                         toast a long time ago.
                      \_ They've monetized J2ME on cell phones. i.e. games
2005/9/17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39723 Activity:high
9/17    Toyota to go 100% hybrid:
        \_ They're going hybrid with the Highlanders, and competitors to
           follow. GREAT! I can't wait to get my Chevy Suburban or Hummer
           hybrids so that I can drive in style for the mere gasoline cost
           of a traditional Honda Accord.
           \_ Sport Utility Vehicles have gotten a lot of bad press lately,
              but they're manufactured for one reason: to transport today's
              modern genetic super breed of wives, kids, and dogs which can
              weigh in excess of 250lbs each.
              \_ Holy shit.  When did everyone upgrade to Marmaduke?
        \_ Toyota has a habit of doing what they say they will.  GM is sooo
           \_ Toyota is like, Microsoft. They can do whatever they want
              and force competitors to catch up. GM/Ford is like Sun Micro,
              they play stupid immature marketing games and come out with
              lamewares like StarOffice or something, and they play the
              number games very well but in the long run it's just fruitless
                \_ in Sun's defense, StarOffice was never meant to be a "real"
                   product.  it was acquired along with a Czech company and
                   for a long time had no support.  Also, one of those stupid
                   immature marketing games was called "Java."
                   \_ Has Sun made any money off of Java yet?
2005/9/11-13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39633 Activity:nil
        Katrina is the catalyst for the declining popularity of SUV.
        "Chevrolet Suburban saw sales drop 28 percent during August. Ford
         said sales of the full-size Ford Expedition plunged 40 percent.
         Toyota Motor said sales of its heavily promoted Sequoia dropped
         32 percent in August."
        Apparently, there IS a God! Thank you God for striking down asshole
        cars. Now I'm going to celebrate by smoking weed.       -happy liberal
        \_ People were prescient enough not to buy SUVs because a hurricane
           would screw oil prices at the end of the month?
           \_ Had you not noticed that whole $70/barrel runup in the last few
              months?  Oops.  I suppose that should be directed at OP.
2005/9/10-13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39623 Activity:low
9/10    People who drive Range Rovers, Excursions and Suburbans are
        flipping this Hummer driver because Hummers are less environmentally
        \_ what I found interesting is that government give out
           tax credit up to $100k for vehicle over 6000 pounds.  This
           along with the proposed new fuel efficiency standard would
           explain why there are so many ultra-big vehicle on the road.
           \_ The tax credit is only if you use the vehicle for work and
              now the credit is spread across 4 years, can't take it in
              one chunk.
              \_ For "work".
              \_ Actually you could depreciate in one chunk, until that loop
                 hole was closed for large SUVs on 10/22/2004 by an
                 amendment by Don Nickles (R Oklahoma).
           \_ I cashed in on that tax deal with an X5 (6008 lbs).  Had they
              allowed that deal to continue, I would have bought a Hummer
              this year to piss off my friends.
                \_ joke's on you
                   \_ Not really.  I saved $30K on my taxes with the X5.
                      That'll cover, what, a hundred years of extra gas
                      That'll cover, what, thirty years of extra gas
                      money?  The Hummer would have been worth $40K in
                      taxes for me.
                      \_ 30K ?  How does that work?
                         \_ There was a special loophole that allowed you
                            to deduct vehicles over 6000 pounds as a
                            business expense, even if you used it to
                            \_ The math doesn't add up. Let's say the X5
                               cost $60K. To save $30K on taxes your
                               marginal rate would have to be 50%. The
                               highest bracket isn't that high.
                               \_ Base 2005 BMW X5, 4.8is AWD 4dr SUV (4.8L
                                  8cyl 6A), MSRP $70,100, Invoice $63,970.
                                  Also, though I haven't stated it
                                  specifically, I live in CA, so you have to
                                  add in my CA state tax.  It actually works
                                  out to be a bit more than $30k.
        \_ Hybrid Hummer from seven years ago:
           350hp.  0-50mph in 7sec.  18mpg.  Climbs 60% grade at 17mph and
           fords 5ft of water (think New Orleans).  It even has a stealth mode.
           \_ An all electric tank with electric canon?  Those would be
              some batteries.
2005/9/9-13 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39606 Activity:moderate
9/9     Small Japanese People making a comeback:
           "In 1981, the average car got 21mpg... Jump ahead 24 years, the
            average car got... 21mpg... vehicles have gotten more fuel
            efficient. It's just that car buyers have wanted other things..."
            \_ I can pesonally attest to the advance in engine technology.
               Thirteen years ago my '84 Jeep Cherokee (115hp) reached the
               100k-mile mark and I was getting ~14mpg.  This June my '96 Jeep
               Cherokee (190hp) also reached the 100k-mile mark, and I'm
               getting ~22mpg.  Both trucks have *identical* bodies, so the
               difference in mpg is all in the drivetrain.  Actually my '96 has
               cruise control and one mandatory airbag, so it probably weights
               more than my '84.
        \_ Not gonna happen. Gas price is going down again. For this to
           happen, you either need a sustained 70s effect, where gas is
           relatively $5-6/gallon. Not gonna happen now. Americans love
           their SUVs.
           \_ The 1981 inflation-adjusted peak gas cost was $2.94.  -tom
              \_ $3.0803 for CA.
                 \_ Whatever, the point is it wasn't $5-$6/gallon back then,
                    and the price had a real effect on car buying.  -tom
           \_ SUV sales are already way down. Someday they will be
              like big station wagons of the 70s are thought of today.
           \_ Americans use far more gas than they did in the '70s.  Inflation
              adjusted price comparisons are kind of bogus.
        \_ nice try.  it won't fly.  most of these car's performance sucks.
           zero-sixty at 15 second range.   American need to have a lot of
           interior room.  None of these car has them.  The two car I know
           that has relatively roomy interior and small in size are
           1. Audi A2, and 2. Opel Melvira
           \_ Also American cities, excluding megaurbans that we know, tend
              to spread out over a large area of land, and Americans
              travel more distance with a greater speed than most of the
              other countries so they prefer big, comfortable cars. After
              getting spoiled for decades, and with loans at all time low,
              it is unlikely Americans will buy something smaller when they
              can obviously take easy loans to get something much better.
              \_ only way to resolve this issue is slap $1 per gallon of
                 federal tax on gasoline (oppose to $0.18 right now).
                 \_ Yes, the solution to any problem is to raise taxes.
                    The government knows best how to spend your money.
                    \_ Instead, we should just get rid of all our taxes
                       because the government doesn't know how to spend
                       our money. In fact, they shouldn't even be spending
                       our money. Stop spending our money to build and
                       maintain our automotive infrastructure, damnit.
                       But I still want to drive my 6000lbs SUV.
                    \_ they do if best is defined in terms of speed or
                    \_ (Note, I'm not arguing pro/con) This is not a
                       revenue-generating tax, although it inevitably turns
                       into one, it's a punitive tax to try and steer
                       peoples' behavior, much like a cigarette tax.  There's
                       a difference.  -John
                       \_ ohh my gosh, John understands me for once.
                         \_ Not really. The government is telling you not
                            to spend your money on gas in that instance.
                            They are thus telling you how to spend
                            your money. The difference is the same.
                            \_ You're an idiot.
                               \_ Insightful.
                               \_ moron would be more exact, but agreed.
2005/9/9-11 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39592 Activity:nil
9/9     Crack NOLA police force in action... "[T]he police taught everyone
        around here how to loot. They were the first to bust into the
        grocery store down the street and the Wal-Mart a mile or so up
        the road. He also says they took to breaking into car lots in the
        days after the storm and driving off with brand-new Escalades. I'm
        not sure whether to believe him, until a cop car drives buy towing
        what looks like a mint-condition Corvette Stingray.
        \_ LA and NO in particular have had endemic corruption for
           decades upon decades.  Such corruption breeds incompetence.
           On the best of nights NO is out of control and lawless; throw
           in a flood and you see the result.
        \_ Just for argument's sake, it would make sense for them to heist
           SUVs in place of patrol cars, and to bust into shops to distribute
           goods to people, but it doesn't sound like that's what happened
           (although to be fair, I wasn't there...)  -John
2005/8/26-29 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39297 Activity:nil
8/26    Hawaii caps gas prices:
        \_ Won't oil companies just sell the gas for Hawaii in other states?
        \_ In other news, the Hawaii state legislature failed economics
           \_ The Hawaii state government has been failing remedial econ
              for quite some time now.
        \_ Damn I'm glad I no longer live there .. gas lines suck, just ask
           your parents!
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:39218 Activity:very high
8/22    SUV owners: Are you still happy with your oil guzzlling SUVs, or
        is the gasoline price getting painful?
        \_ I don't drive an SUV but I did just put $52+ in my tank.  Does it
           hurt?  Only in the "gee, that was the most expensive tank of gas
           I've ever bought in my entire life... oh well" kind of way.  The
           price has *zero* effect on my driving.  Why?  I still need to drive
           to work, to the store, to visit family, etc.  I'm really happy for
           the anti-car folks who live in a tiny village making pottery out
           of their backyard to sell to their pottery buying neighbors down
           the street who live next to their parents, but the rest of us have
           lives to live.  When someone donates a $1M+ home I'll be able to
           live closer to work but that will put me further from my family.
           \_ Your little rant was cute and all, tough guy, but why don't
              you tell us one reason why you need a SUV? What does it do
              that a minivan or a regular old sedan can't do?
              \_ Some people need to haul their entire living room up K2.
           \_  Great.  You just keep on thinking that the California car
               driving lifestyle is the only way to have a decent life,
               and stay the fuck out of the decent places so the rest of
               us can live in peace.
               \_ Yep, you've convinced me with your deep and pithy style
                  that my lifestyle is just wrong.  Please provide a list of
                  "decent places" so I know how to avoid hyper aggressive
                  ninnies like you.  Thanks.
               \_ It's not just California, it's the entire country.  The
                  modern American way of life is built on cheap gas.  We need
                  to start thinking seriously about how we're going to live in
                  a world where gas is not cheap, instead of just getting into
                  unproductive left/right pissing matches.  The "sky is
                  falling" crowd and the "I don't care, something will fix it
                  all for us" crowd are both blinkered.
           \_ How about telecommuting, even as little as once a week?
              \_ *laugh* Yeah, uhm, sure.  Talk to my boss.  Thanks.  As if I
                 _choose_ to not telecommute.
           \_ My SUV's mileage is 20mpg, which is not that much worse than our
              other car's 26mpg.  On the other hand I find it far more
              versatile.  However, I also don't drive it that much.  Why focus
              on car style and MPG when you should be focusing on overall GAS
              usage i.e. in gallons/day?
              \_ Exactly.  I own an SUV, but I only drive it a short distance
                 to transfer to public transit to commute to work, even though
                 it's faster to drive straight to work all the way.
                 in order to transfer to public transit to commute to work,
                 even though it's faster to drive all the way to work.  So my
                 gas-guzzling SUV guzzles much less gas than some people's
              \_ Your other car is 30% more fuel efficient. "Not that much
                 worse"? What would be "that" much, 15mpg? 10mpg? Not that
                 I'm advocating either way. My car ~= 25mpg. I also live
                 close to work though.
                 Also note that even for the same MPG, emissions levels can
                 still vary quite a bit between cars.
           \_ I live and work in San Francisco. Not selling pottery either.
              I usually ride my bicycle to work, but take Muni/BART on
              days when I don't feel like riding. I use CityShare about
              twice a month when I need to shop. I don't own a car. It
              isn't really that hard to do. -ausman
              \_ City CarShare is pretty rad, but I'm not sure how it would
                 work in lower density areas.
              \_ You never drive anywhere for recreation?
                 \_ I rent or borrow a car to do that. Honestly, this is
                    the only real change I have noticed: I rarely leave
                    The City and when I do it is usually to get on an
                    airplane. Oh, I go to Berkeley alot for Cal games,
                    but I use BART for that.
                    \- I live in SF. I drive to the gym 4 blocks away.
                        \_ You don't really live in SF, do you? South of
                           Cesar Chavez and West of Divis don't count. Where
                           in "SF" do you live?
                           \_ Who told you they don't count? Not an SF native,
                              that is for sure. Most of the native San
                              Franciscans grew up South of Cesar Chavez
                              or West of Divis.
                        \_ Don't want to get too bulked up on your way there!
              \_ How do you get your kids around?  How do you shop for a
                 family of 4 + pets?  How do you move anything bigger than
                 a backpack to/from your apartment?  How happy is your wife
                 living in an apartment with a few kids + pets?  How can you
                 afford to pay a mortgage in the city so close to work?
                 \_ There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than
                    are dreamt of in your philosophy.  -tom
                    are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.  -tom
                    \_ So you suggest ausman not have kids, pets, a spouse,
                       large objects, a wife, or buy a house?  That's really
                       deep.  Maybe he can live near a lake and write poetry
                       and contemplate his Oneness with the universe while
                       RIDE BIKE! through the forest?
                       \_ Regardless of what Tom or anyone thinks, you need a
                          car for a lot of things.  However, you do _not_ need
                          a fucking SUV for wives/childrens/dogs/cellos or
                          whatever.  You need a truck for hauling sacks of
                          turf and wheelbarrows and lumber, which is what those
                          things were originally for, not picking up lattes
                          for the office.  I smile every time I see some
                          idiot in a monster like that with a $90 gas tank
                          (or whatever it translates to.)  All the farmers and
                          handyman types here drive cars like Subaru estates
                          or small minivans.  -John
                          \_ Sure you do. Because modern American wives/
                             children/dogs/cellos are three times bigger
                             than they were when you were growing up or
                             in other countries.
                          \_ I "need" a car about twice a month. It is silly
                             to pay $400-500 a month for something I use twice.
                             \_ $400-500/mo? Why would you get such an
                                expensive car? If you get a decent cheap small
                                car, maybe a couple years old, it could last
                                a very long time especially considering low
                       \_ RIDE BIKE! is for people who do things like
                          not live in LA or not play cello. -- ilyas
                          \_ My brother plays drums and lives without a car.
                             But we don't need any more proof that you're
                             incapable of thinking creatively.  -tom
                             \_ i bet the bum lives in your parents
                                garage and will keep bumming rides
                                to move his shit around when he is
                                asked to leave.
                             \_ Yeah, I am sure exposure to temperature
                                extremes won't be bad for the cello.  Or God
                                forbid you go professional, and have to tow
                                a 50,000 dollar box of wood as fragile as an
                                eggshell, and sensitive to everything.  I mean
                                that can only end well. -- ilyas
                       \_ I'm not suggesting ausman do anything; it sounds
                          like he's already done a pretty good job making
                          life decisions.  I think it's pretty sad that some
                          people can't imagine living any way other than
                          what they're accustomed to.  I know plenty of
                          people living car-free, and it is entirely possible
                          to have a rich, fulfilling life, including kids and
                          pets, without owning a car.  In fact I would go
                          further to say that the car-free people I know
                          tend to have lives richer and more fulfilling than
                          the average.  -tom
                 \_ Pets are luxury items.
                      \_ So are kids, grocery, etc.
                         \_ If only the 3rd world knew they were living in
                            such luxury!
                            \_ So are pets.
                            \_ Here in US, you need $$$ to raise a kid.  A kid costs
                               $1M in your lifetime.
                               \_ That's only an ideal. Look at all the poor
                                  people having kids. Your tax dollars at
                                  \_ Or, rather, lack of tax dollars for decent
                                     sex ed/condom programs.
                                     \_ I don't think so. I think a lot of them
                                        choose to have kids regardless.
                               \_ Pure BS.  I guess that it's possible
                                  that some people spend that much on
                                  kids, but my parents raised 5 kids on
                                  $40,000 a year, in CA.  All that with
                                  no particular government help to speak
                                  of. (Usual stuff I suppose, we went to
                                  CA public colleges, so tution was fairly
                                  cheap, etc.)
                                  \_ Yeah, me too, but my mom telling me the
                                     Alpo from the discount warehouse was
                                     really "extra chunky corn flakes" got a
                                     bit old.  :-)  -John
                 \_ I don't have any kids yet, maybe I will have to buy a
                    car when I get one, but I hope not. I see lots of Noe
                    Valley parents loading their kids onto the J every
                    morning in their strollers, so I know it can be done.
                    It might not be possible with two working parents. I
                    already told you how I shop. City CarShare has trucks
                    and SUVs for larger loads. Since I live in a walkable
                    city, there is a butcher and produce store less than
                    two blocks away for day to day things. I live in half a
                    2500 sq ft duplex we bought three years ago. 1250 sq ft is
                    plenty of space for three people, but if my family gets too
                    big I might have to move. I am not going to post details
                    of my financial situation on the motd but if you are
                    really curious, you are welcome to write me and ask.
                    Our total cost of mortgage minus rents from the bottom
                    unit is less than our rents apart were. -ausman
                    \_ Thank you for a serious and thoughtful reply, unlike
                       some others here.
        \_ As I've said over and over again, the problem is not that gas
           gas costs $4, $5, $6, etc. per gallon for personal driving.  The
           problem is that it inflates the price of everything.  I can handle
           even $20/gallon gasoline.  However, if you raise my food, water,
           electric, etc., bills by 6x that's a totally different story.
           \_ Gas is $6/gallon in Europe and somehow people there survive.
              I guess you could argue their standard of living is lower,
              but they don't think so. Our standard of living is going
              to go down, too.
              \_ Being a tall/long-legged person; I am pretty much
                 stuck with driving an SUV due to headroom  issues. It sucks
                 paying >$50 a week in gas; but I have got no other
                 alternative w/o adding another hour a day to the commute.
                 I hear that they are coming out with hybrid SUVs..
              \_ European commuters pay $6/gallon (or $9/gallon in Holland),
                 but many other industrial consumers do not due to tax rebates.
                 They can always lower their taxes, we have nothing to lower.
                 Like I said, driving is a luxury, eating is not.  Europe also
                 has had decades to design all their cities and infrastructure
                 around expensive gas.  Almost everything in America is setup
                 to require cheap energy to function.
                 \_ Right. It's a good thing the folks who laid out London after
                    the fire of 1666 took high gas prices into account in
                    their planning.
                        \_ Oh, they had a oil based economy before 1666? I
                           learn something new every day on the motd.  Cheap
                           energy is a modern, temporary phenomenon.
        \_ A friend of mine was 6'5" and borrowed my Honda Civic and said he
           had no problem with headroom ... He drives a Subaru Forrester now.
           \_ Speaking as a 6'4" person, a Honda Civic is perfectly fine -
              I drove one in comfort for 4 years.  The Mini Cooper was also
              pretty comfortable.  The only car that I've seen that I doubt
              I could drive under most circumstances was the Lotus Elise,
              but that's a $40,000 toy.  --lye
              \- I think people who can afford [as opposed to those who buy
                 but cannot afford] +$40k cars are not significantly affected
                 but cannot afford] +$40k cars are really not at all affected
                 by the gasoline price increase. To arbitrarily pick a number,
                 if you make $100k/yr, does gas being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
                 if you make $100k/yr, does gast being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
                 you at all? This delta is less than their latte/imported beer/
                 fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, higher
                 fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, increase
                 oil prices affect the cost of living in otherways, but I
                 still dont think this affects the even moderately well off.
                 Now obviously there could be other effect [like say if you
                 work for an airlines] but the main effect is not from incr
                 cost of living/out of pocket costs. ok tnx.
                 fancy vodka budget/premium.
                 \_ Of course it will hit the poor more, like any price
                    increases in staples. However, there are lot of places
                    it can affect the rich, too. Even if you don't, say,
                    own a trucking company you might own a yacht. Are
                    those people going to be on food stamps? No, but like
                    anyone else they are on a budget. If they take the
                    boat out less often (say) then the marina loses money,
                    the yacht club loses money (no mai tais), the tackle
                    shop loses money and so on. A lot of wealthy people
                    are wealthy because they pay attention to the bottom
                    line, not because they ignore rising expenses.
                    \- my point is not "it hits the poor more", it is
                       "the marginal increase in living costs going to
                       higher auto gas costs is trivial for medium income
                       people among bay area high tech people" i.e. the sloda
                       demographic. the increase price of gas increased the
                       per capita cost of a gas for a camping trip by $5/person
                       [500mi of driving].
                       \_ Might not be trivial if, say, you own a boat,
                          which was my example. It directly depends on
                          how much gasoline you use (or need for your
                          business) and indirectly depends on how much
                          gasoline others use (and need for their
                          businesses). Price at the pump to fill up the
                          SUV isn't really the issue.
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39217 Activity:moderate
8/22    Do gas pumps automatically shut off when it reaches $50?  Yesterday I
        was using my Discover Card at a 76 station, and the pump stopped at
        exactly $50.00.  Was it just by chance, or was this a security feature?
        I could've tried topping-off and see if it would continue pumping, but
        I didn't think of it until after I returned the nozzle to the pump.
        \_ $997...$998...$999...$000. "Woohoo!!! Free Gas!"
        \_ This is a security feature put in by evil left wing liberals to
           keep from us good conservatives from driving our Ford Exterminator
           on the street.
        \_ Could be something locally set up. Gas is pricey in that area.
           The only other security feature I've seen is you can't use the
           same credit card for gas within X hours.
           \_ It's Cupertino.  I've never reached $50 at the gas pump in my
              life.  -- OP
                \_ What kind of car, max gallon, and the type of gas filled?
                   \_ Toyota Sienna, max 21gal, the lowest grade gas (whatever
                      it's called at 76).  Pump stopped at 17.863gal.  Please
                      no flaming on driving a big van.  My alternative is to
                      to use two small cars to haul the family which would burn
                      use two small cars to haul the family which would burn
                      even more gas.  -- OP
                      \_ Minivans are the safest and most practical vehicles
                         on the road. You will get no flames from me.
                         -car hating critical mass guy
                         \_ What about the overbreeding?
                            \_ Actually it's me + wife + kid, plus my bro-in-
                               law + wife + kid, plus my in-laws, a total of 8.
                               Just fills up an 8-passenger Sienna.   We go out
                               together every weekend.  I don't drive the van
                               on weekdays.  -- OP
           \_ Reminds me of that time I drove from oakland to las vegas,
              averaging 80-110mph. Got gas using my credit card at some
              station in Bumfuck, CA.  Got to Vegas in record time and
              tried to check-in the hotel and they said my card was
              declined, they called the credit card company for me,
              handed me the phone and I had to verify my identity
              to the representative. Turns out they had locked my
              card because their software program decided there was
              no way I could have used the card in Oakland, Bumfuck
              & Vegas in an approx. 6.5 hour period.
              \_ I think it would be funny if cops could give you speeding
                 tickets based on math in this case.
                 \_ "Your honor, I was flying in a chartered chopper ..."
        \_ Yes, typically.  You have to swipe your card again as another
           \_ Is it a feature to keep criminals from using the card, or to
              keep you from pouring gas all over the station?
              \_ I don't know why.  My guess was something about the credit
                 card companies' policy of the customer being liable for $50.
                 But that's just a guess.
                 \_ the preauth is usually set around that. i think there's
                    a roadshow answer to this question a while back.
        \_ Since gas prices keep going up, this is going to start making
           getting gas more inconvenient in the future ...
           \_ GOOD. I'm happy. Move closer, ride a scooter, less traffic,
              less pollution. GOOD. I'm happy.
              \_ Spoken like a student.  Let us know when you have a job and
                 a spouse and own more than the clothes on your back.  Maybe
                 a few kids, too.
              \_ I don't own a car, and rely completely on bike for transport,
                 but spiralling gas prices are still very bad if they get
                 out of control, even for us non-car people.   The price of
                 oil could easily get out of control to the point that it
                 fucks up the economy badly enough that we have no job to bike
                 to, and can't afford the goods at the store that we bike to.
                 Also, I'm not going to bike to see my family who live 3000
                 miles away.
        \_ Getting gas off 98th Avenue, Oakland (yucky, 3 panhandlers in lot)
           they limited my SUV (rented for camping, refilling) to $25 via
           my credit card. I had to pay cash to get more than that.
           Then in Millbrae (nice neighborhood?) they limited the Lexus SC400
           to $50 (didnt fill it up all the way). By the way, I'm only
           5'9" but the SC400 is too short, especially with asian-hair that
           sticks up, my hair touches the roof of the car. Annoying car.
           But headroom issues belong in the other thread above this one.
           \_ Are you saying that there's a station agent who watches what
              kind of car you're filling, and punches in a limit on the fly?
              \_ No. Those limits to apply to anyone, any single transaction.
                 Just different neighborhood have different limits.
2005/8/22-23 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39214 Activity:kinda low
8/22    My year 2006 prediction -- There will be an SUV bubble.
        Housing prices will continue to climb.
        \_ Do you mean: SUV prices will suddenly ascend to ludicious
        \_ Do you mean: SUV prices will suddenly ascend to ludacris
           levels (a bubble) or prices will crash (a bubble burst)?
           \_ I'm Fiddy Cent Beeaatch! <bang> <bang> <bang>
           \_ What's a ludacris level? Is that the level most of those
              pimped out rap mobile Escalades are at?
           \_ The number of SUV sales will go down. GM/Ford/etc keep pumping
              out the same number of SUVs and realize the low demand, and
              start cutting prices drastically during the summer of 2006.
              \_ You think executives don't cut production when sales
                 decline? "GM and Ford have already made clear that their
                 outlook for SUV sales this year isn't bright. Both have
                 cut SUV production plans. (May 2005)"  Although recently
                 sales have rebounded due to large price cuts, but I doubt
                 that will spur large production increases.
                 \_ The past couple of years have shown Detroit to be be not
                    operating very rationally. You'd think executives would
                    cut production when sales decline, but, up until this year,
                    they hadn't. Dealers have been complaining for years about
                    being shipped too many SUVs and larger cars that just sat
                    on their lots unsold. At the same time, buyers have been
                    put on waiting lists to buy hybrids. American car sales
                    came out of the doldrums briefly this year for the first
                    time in a few years as a result of massive price cuts -
                    the so-called "employee discounts" for everybody sales.
                 \_ Since Detroit loses money on almost every vehicle except
                    for SUVs -- how will they survice?
                    \_ Is this a clumsy attempt to change the subject?
        \_ And you're so confident in your prediction, you even fail to sign
           your name!
        \_ my prediction, the aliens who doped us up with Sci Fi films
          will attack us finally
        \_ ludicrous
        \_ lewdicrous
        \_ loodicris
2005/8/19-22 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:39180 Activity:moderate
        What kind of car is this? I'm trying to find more info like name,
        model, mileage, and other things. Thanks.               -kchang
        \_ If you're interested in a small car, you might want to read
                -- mini owner
           \_ Note that is from 2002. And the Neon, Cavalier/Sunfire, and Civic
              and Corolla do all have higher driver deaths than even the
              midsize cars. The Jetta is also not "tiny" as they say; it's
              a bigger car than a Civic.
              \_ But in general, some of the most dangerous cars to be in
                 are SUVs (or light trucks as some people call them).
              \_ 3 of the 4 worst performing cars are subcompacts. Indeed, it
                 seems like midsize cars had the best ratings. --mini owner
        \_ SMART car. Owned by the greater DCX corporation.
           \_ I saw quite a few of them in Canada. I wonder if they're in US
        \_ You buy it, and you go straight to Dr. Yeung.
        \_ I believe the guy driving the car is a 25 year old Bengali.
        \_  and
        \_ When you get into an traffic accident, it conveniently crushes into
           the shape of a coffin, saving you funeral expenses further down the
           \_ And the solution is to have everyone buy bigger and heavier
              cars, thereby, starting an arms race and making everything,
              in general, more dangerous?
              \_ What solution?  Is there a problem here?
                 \_ The problem is that people getting bigger cars to make
                    themselves safer is a fallacy because once other people
                    start doing that, your "big" car will become dangerous
                    to be in because of other bigger cars on the street.
                    Meanwhile, your car will become more difficult to
                    control because of the extra weight and size and you're
                    more likely to get into an accident in the first place.
           \_ The problem with modern light (small is irrelevant) cars isn't
              being crushed; they have really strong frames (good ones do).
              The problem is just inertia.  Your car will be hurled by the
              big SUV and when you then hit something else you and the pinball
              car will come to an abrupt stop.  This is why buses don't have
              seatbelts.  In general they don't need them.
              \_ When a bus rolls over, big inertia doesn't help.  When you
                 don't have seatbelts, you hit the roof and break your neck
                 and die.  BTW there are usually seat belts for the bus
                 drivers.  So I think buses should have seatbelts for
                 passengers also.
                 \_ Sure sure.  There are lots of ways to get hurt and die in
                    a car.  Sometimes the seatbeltless guy who got ejected
                    lives.  Small nimble cars are more likely to completely
                    avoid accidents but less likely to survive head-on
                    collisions, yadda yadda.
              \_  They are actually quite safe.  Very
                 rigid frame, tons of airbags.  You see a lot of them in
                 Europe (use almost no gas, very roomy--a colleague has one
                 and we carpool regularly.)  Not very much storage, fairly
                 zippy, and there's a 4-door (which sucks), a roadster (which
                 is cute but being discontinued) and the crossblade (which is
                 an awesome idea-- )  I think
                 they even make some bizarre Brabus mad turbo version.  The
                 company's at least co-owned by DaimlerChrysler, and they sell
                 them here in these giant glass towers that look like 10 story
                 car vending machines.  Pretty cool, and you can wedge them
                 in perpendicularly into many gaps in parking spots.  -John
                 \_ That crossblade doesn't look safe.
                    \_ OK granted, but I don't think "safety" is entirely
                       the point with something like that.  -John
2005/7/26-29 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38830 Activity:high
7/26    To the free market troll complaining about how the government shouldn't
        fund an R&D project into better roads.  Have you any idea how many
        commercial(read: free market) companies owe their technology to basic
        science funded by the government?  Hell. If not for that, you wouldn't
        even have a career.
        \_ I am probably the guy you think is the free market troll.  You
           didn't read my posts carefully enough.  I totally support government
           funding of R&D of all kinds, government funding of roads, and
           government funding of public mass transit.  I just loathe car
           culture, and think that our present system is not based on either
           a free market or government support of rational transit, but rather
           is based on whoring out the country for the car companies and
           suburban developers.  You may address me as "anti-car troll" if
           you want to be accurate.
           \_ "whoring out the country for the car companies..."?  Did you
              just graduate from highschool?   That's the sort of
              demagoguery I'd expect from a freshman or sophomore with all the
              accompanying idealisitic 'Im gonna change the *world*!!!!'
              demagoguery I'd expect from a freshman or sophomore will all the
              accompanying idealisitic 'Im-a gonna change the *world*!!!!'
                \_ I'm not lafe but I just want to say that when I was in
                   college I was full of optimism and energy because I
                   felt that I could do a lot to make this world better.
                   Now that I'm in my 30s, working 9-5... I feel that
                   there isn't much I can really do to drastically
                   change the world. You just live life the way life
                   wants you to live. Does anyone feel similar?
                   \_ Not at all; I'm not a victim. -pp
                   \_ No.  Try to be a good guy, debate eloquently, stand by
                      your convictions.  What's so hard about that?  Make what
                      little difference you can, and enjoy watching the morons
                      around you send the world to hell in a handbasket.  And
                      regarding the comment below, Europe has good public
                      transit, but the cities are also generally a lot more
                      densely populated.  -John
                   \_ I do try to live my life modestly and reasonably, but
                      I've concluded that the world doesn't want to be made
                      better. See GC's comments on "Paradox of Our Time"
           \_ So, your alternative to car culture...?
                \_ See Europe.  Walkable/bikable cities, subsidized mass
                   transit.  High gas taxes to discourage use of the
                   automobile.  Discourage sprawl.
                   \_ Europe's big cities are very densely populated. The
                      rest of Europe uses cars just like here.
                      \_ Even smaller European cities have very usable
                         public transportation (better than, say, SF/Oak).
                         And even less densly populated regions are well
                         served by public transport. I was able to get
                         from the door of my apartment to standing on a
                         glacier (in another country no less!) solely
                         though public transport (well, and some walking).
                         \_ So you suggest a *massive* rebuilding of our
                            entire culture where we literally rip up everything
                            now in place, and rebuild everyone's home, work,
                            the transit system, utilities, everything, so you
                            don't have to live in car culture?  Seriously, I've
                            never said this to anyone before but if you're that
                            upset you should just move to another country that
                            suits you better.  Living here will just keep you
                            bitter and angry.  Note, I don't say 'make'.  You
                            are already bitter and angry to a ridiculous degree
                            over something that will *never* be anything like
                            the way you want.
                            \_ Ok, take a couple of deep breaths and re-read
                               my post. You will see that I do not suggest
                               anything; I just offered a counter statement
                               and supporting anecdote to the post before
                               me. Physician, heal thyself. -- pp
                               \_ Ok, so you advocate nothing when the original
                                  point of this sub-thread was "What is your
                                  alternative to car culture?".  To say that
                                  you advocate nothing when you're really
                                  advocating European style transit which would
                                  require a massive and near complete
                                  rebuilding of society is pure intellectual
                                  dishonesty.  To then turn around and say the
                                  fault is mine and that you're this calm and
                                  together person while I'm some nut case is
                                  pure dishonesty.  Care to actually discuss
                                  the issue instead of nutting around?
                                  \_ I predict that within 10 years gasoline
                                     will be $10/gallon and the rebulding of
                                     America into a denser and more sustainable
                                     fashion will begin happening all on its
                                     own. And yes, you are the one that sounds
                                     angry and bitter and extreme here. !-pp
                                     \_ It isn't possible to be angry/bitter
                                        about something I don't care about.
                                        Questioning someone who questions the
                                        status quo is hardly extreme.  Now
                                        you're just being silly.  Re-read and
                                        try again.  I predict that whatever
                                        happens, if you predict enough random
                                        things you'll eventually be right
                                        about some of them.
                                        \_ Are you familiar with the Peak Oil
                                           hypothesis? I am not predicting a
                                           "random" thing, I am subscribing
                                           to a theory that already has quite
                                           a bit of evidence to back it up.
                                           \_ I've read a lot on both sides of
                                              the peak oil hypothesis.  I'm
                                              still undecided.  Thinking about
                                              it now, no, I don't think oil
                                              will ever get to $10/gallon in
                                              today's currency because there
                                              are other energy sources that
                                              cost less than that, but more
                                              than the current price.  Oil
                                              can exceed those numbers due to
                                              current inertial reliance, but
                                              not to infinity and I don't
                                              believe to $10/g.  I still
                                              remember all the scare movies
                                              in the 70s telling us how by
                                              the mid 80s the world would be
                                              completely out of oil.  I'm not
                                              easily convinced that state of
                                              affairs is always ~10 years away.
                                              \_ A while ago I saw a seaman's
                                                 handbook written in the 70's
                                                 that quite sincerely stated
                                                 that sail might well be comming
                                                 back in the near future so
                                                 merchant seamen should learn
                                                 sailing related skills.
                                              \_ So I did some research and
                                                 I agree that because of coal
                                                 to gasoline processes, gas
                                                 will probably not hit $10
                                                 anytime soon. I think $5 is
                                                 very likely though.
                         \_ I wouldn't say that smaller cities have better
                            public transport than SF does. There is, for
                            instance, no subway. You might be able to get
                            on a bus, but you can do that here, too, if
                            you don't mind a 3 hour trip to go 20 miles.
                            My point was that Europe, outside of the dense
                            cities, is also a car culture. Try driving
                            from Paris to the Mediterranean during the
                            summer. The roads are packed. Mostly the old and
                            the poor use public transport, just like here,
                            unless they live in a big city (like our NYC).
                            Plenty of Europeans own cars and use them to,
                            say, go to Wal-Mart.
                            \_ Yeah, traffic here is horrible, as bad as
                               LA -- I don't deny that (though the highways
                               are also much narrower). But at the same time,
                               of the 12 people I work with closely, every
                               single one takes public transportation to work.
                               of the 12 people I work with closely, not a
                               single one drives to work.
                               I live in a town that isn't that much larger
                               than Des Moines and it has functioning public
                               transportation. You are right, there is no
                               subway here, but there are trams. However,
                               to go 20 mi, I wouldn't use either -- I'd
                               take a train and, if well timed, it should take
                               about 40 minutes door-to-door with public
                               transportation (less if I biked to the train
                               station, which I probably would). It is un-
                               realistic to expect the US to become this way
                               overnight, and there are some inherent
                               differences between Europe and the US that
                               may make it hard to implement such a system,
                               but the difference isn't just an "economy-
                               of-scale" effect from large cities -- many
                               smaller European cities have well functioning
                               public transportation.
                            \_ When I was on vacation, I took trains everywhere.
                               The train from Nice to Paris took about seven
                               hours. I could have done it in a bullet train
                               in about four, but I wanted to do it overnight
                               and get a sleeper. The people I shared my
                               cabin with certainly were not poor.
                               \_ Trains will get you to a city, but are
                                  not helpful to get you to a particular
                                  destination. I can fly from LA to SF
                                  for cheap, so I guess flying is better
                                  than public transportation. Why would
                                  someone take a train to Nice if they
                                  could fly?
                                  \_ Easy -- it takes an hour to get from
                                     your house to the airport, where you
                                     need to arrive an hour in advance.
                                     The flight takes an hour, and it
                                     takes another hour to get from the
                                     airport to the city center. So, even
                                     though the flight is only 1 hr, you
                                     are in transit for 4 hours. When
                                     factoring in the time it takes to get
                                     to the train station, it probably
                                     takes a little bit longer, but the
                                     experience is much more pleasant.
                                     \_ The solution is obviously to build
                                        more airports so that it won't
                                        take 2 hours there/back.
                                        \_ Or more train stations with
                                           bullet trains.
                                  \_ You can take a cab or local transit
                                     or even rent a car once you get there.
                                     Flying is a sort of mass transit, actually.
                                     How is it fundamentally different than
                   \_ Same as in Hong Kong and around the Tokyo area.  Many
                      people have nice cars, but they don't drive them
                      \_ In Tokyo, you don't have to. In NYC, you don't
                         have to. It's unreasonable to expect the same
                         level of public transit in, say, Des Moines.
                         \_ I've never been to Tokyo, but the idea that you can
                            get around NYC with just public transit is simply
                            wrong.  Even if you want to think that Manhattan =
                            NYC, this still isn't so and the incredible number
                            of cabs and other private driving services should
                            make this clear.  If public transit was so great
                            and workable in NYC, there wouldn't be so many
                            cabbies.  A cab is *waaaay* more expensive than
                            public transit, btw.
                            \_ There are tons of cabbies in Tokyo, and
                               Seoul as well.  Seoul has great public
                               transit, but that doesn't mean you don't
                               sometimes need a car, and therefore a cab.
                               There are even some cases where a cab is
                               cheaper than public transit.  Quite a few
                               in fact. -jrleek
                               \_ Absolutely. I don't think many people are
                                  arguing for getting rid of all cars. Taking
                                  public transit for an IKEA shopping trip
                                  is probably impractical, and there are
                                  plenty of remote regions that don't need
                                  to be served by public transit. The aim
                                  of car alternatives should not be to
                                  replace cars in all situations, just
                                  common ones (people don't go on IKEA
                                  shopping sprees every day, people do
                                  go to work every day).
                                  \_ in other countries ikea provides
                                     very good delivery service for
                                     big items.  for small items, just
                                     call a cab.  still don't need car.
                             \_ I have been to NYC dozens of times and have
                                never taken a cab. The transit system does
                                everything I have ever wanted it to do in
                                NYC. Have you ever even been there before?
                                \_ yes, i was born and raised there.  how many
                                   times did you visit our fine city?
                                   \_ dozens. I don't know the exact number.
        \_ Someone needs to ilyas this post.
           \_ To verbify is the American way... urr, I mean it's to
        \_ I think that guy didn't have a problem with government funding R&D
           projects in general.  He only had a problem with funding R&D
           projects into better roads.

an way... urr, I mean it's to
        \_ I think that guy didn't have a problem with government funding R&D
           projects in general.  He only had a problem with funding R&D
           projects into better roads.
2005/7/25-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38808 Activity:nil
7/25    Pollution fighting concrete, &c.,2782,68282,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_6
        \_ Trees have been doing the same thing for a long long time.
           \_ Yeah, but we seem to be chopping down a LOT of them in
              favor of concrete.
        \_ "Encouraged by such results, the European Union last year earmarked
            $2.27 billion for a project to develop "smart" construction
            materials that would break down nitrogen oxides and other toxic
            substances, such as benzene."
            You think the Bush admin. would ever do something like that? It's
            a great move for both economic, environmental, and public health
            reasons.  But there's no lobby that greases their palms, so it
            would never happen in the US.
            \_ We believe in this crazy thing called the 'free market'. If
               people want this and will pay for it then it will be done.

 34 threads,  780 lines, 157 replies,  22.9 lines/thread,   4.6 replies/thread
                              stddev:  28.0                 5.9
              \_ Free market doesn't work for things like basic
                 infrastructures. Take public transit for example. The
                 benefits are great, but the public needs to spend
                 billions of dollars and wait over 1-2 decades before
                 economic paybacks. In today's world, if you can't
                 make huge profits within 2-3 years, you're out. So what
                 happens when you privatize public transit? They look
                 for things that give you immediate paybacks, like
                 cutting back on the frequency of trains, automation,
                 etc. However, they are reluctant to expand more areas
                 because the investment is enormous, and there is
                 no immediate payback. Sure, free market makes everything
                 more efficient and more profitable, but what about the
                 original long term goals, which is infrastructure for
                 everyone to benefit from?
                 \_ Funny how people equate our car-based system with the
                    free market.  I sure didn't choose to have my tax dollars
                    used to either pay for excess roads and suburban sprawl
                    or to bail out shitty car companies again and again.
                    This car-centered nightmare we have turned our society into
                    has nothing to do with the free market.  It's socialism,
                    with the government doling out welfare to the auto
                    manufacturers and their minions.  A true free market
                    solution *or* a socialist solution for the general public
                    instead of for Detroit would be preferable to the current
                    \_ What exactly would a true free market or complete
                       socialist solution entail? Please elaborate.
                       \_ The true free market solution would involve privately
                          owned toll roads maintained with no help from the
                          government competing with privately owned rail lines
                          with no help or intereference from the government.
                          A socialist solution that benefits humans instead
                          of bloodsucking billionaires from detroit would
                          be based mostly on mass transit, with emphasis on
                          encouraging developement in a walking and biking
                          friendly way.  Both of these sound better than the
                          "we're all happy whores for detroit" system we
                          presently have.  I think that car culture is wrongly
                          associated with the free market as a red herring to
                          decieve people into supporting their automotive
                          \_ Free market works when there is a plethora of
                             sources to choose from. If apple is really
                             expensive, then people can always buy oranges.
                             In the case of infrastructures like eletric
                             power, EVERYONE needs electricity and there
                             isn't enough competition to lower the price.
                             Didn't you take basic econ or experienced the
                             power crisis a few years ago? Free market works
                             for some things and doesn't for others
                             \_ Did I say the free market solution is always
                                the right choice? No, I didn't.  My point
                                is not about free market vs. collective
                                sollutions, my point is about the evil of
                                car culture.  No matter what economic system
                                you have, it still sucks to get kicked in the
                                balls, and car culture is still stupid.
                             \_ I don't know why we're talking about
                                transportation and other infrastructure, but I
                                believe the free market  will provide better
                                building materials if people want them. Witness
                                what has happened with the supply/demand for
                                organic farming.
2005/7/22-25 [Transportation/Airplane, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38770 Activity:nil
7/22    In case you haven't heard, Longhorn is called Windows Vista:
        \_ And like the flying car, it's always just around the corner...
           \_ I would like to preemptively proclaim my hatred of flying cars.
              The same fucking retards who drive around in 5000 pound SUV's
              while talking on cell phones, blast through crosswalks at 55
              mph without looking and park on sidewalks (i.e. the American
              public) should NOT EVER be alowed to fly.  They WILL park
              in trees over sidewalks, which will break causing even more
              pedestrian slaughter.  They will park on roofs where it is
              unsafe, run into power lines causing outages, crash into office
              buildings (out of sheer stupidity at first, then the terrorists
              will start using them as bombs), get stuck in trees and have to
              be choppered out,  and break down over crowded areas and
              crash like stones.  FUCK FLYING CARS!!!
              \_ so trolled.
              \_ This is for you (mp3). -- ulysses
                 \_ Go ahead and laugh.  We'll see how funny you think it is
                    when some fucker crashes their flying SUV into the side of
                    YOUR house, or after a flying car parked in a tree falls
                    and kills YOUR dog.
2005/7/11-12 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38516 Activity:low
7/10    A fast car is nice, but a fast road is even better. How's the
        traffic in Europe (Switzerland and Germany), compared to average
        Bay Area traffic? For example, what is the highway speed limit in
        small towns, suburbs, urban, etc.
        \_ Way more fixed speed cameras and speed checks, way longer traffic
           jams, generally not as horrible rush hour on a daily basis, speed
           limits off highways usually a bit higher, fines worse.  -John
           limits off highways usually a bit higher, fines worse, people drive
           in a more consistently and orderly fashion (no passing on right,
           fewer idiots in SUVs yakking on cell phones.)  -John
           \_ I ENVY YOU. No, I hate America. No, I hate you.
           \_ Why does Fräulein John hate America?
           \_ What do you think the US should do to make its transportation
              system better? I hate our system but I don't want to move to
              \_ You do realize there are entire university departments devoted
                 to this question, right?  I honestly dunno.  Maybe higher gas
                 prices & better public transit is a start; drive fewer
                 automatics so there are less brake lights, so fewer traffic
                 jams, make driving tests harder, make living in city centers
                 more attractive, I really dunno.  If you've ever been in a
                 25km German traffic jam on $4 gasoline, you might think there
                 are good sides to everything... -John
                 \_ I would love to raise the max tax to 50% and raise
                    gasoline price to $3 a gallon to fund super metropolis
                    with superior mass transit system but our fucking
                    Country music listening Red Necks that prefer suburbian
                    lifestyle (so that they can fuck their cousins and
                    nephews and nieces) will not let that happen.
                    \_ This is a parody, right?  Is this jblack?
                    \_ They can't fuck their cousins and nephews and nieces in
                       super metropolis?
2005/6/21-25 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38219 Activity:low
6/21    Most SUV drivers do not have any environmental guilt: "Not
         surprisingly, few SUV drivers have been buying them. Most have gone
         to owners of fuel-efficient cars that produce relatively few
        \_ If they had any environmental guilt/conscience they wouldn't
           buy an SUV in the first place. QED.
           \_ I am an SUV owner, and I can say I have more enviromental
              conscience than many people in my company because I use public
              transit to commute to work even though it takes longer than
              driving, while other co-workers living in the same area drive to
        \_ I saw a "BIN LADEN USED YOUR GAS MONEY" bumpersticker last week.
           \_ Do you know who our largest oil importer is?
                \_ Your momma's scalp?
        \_ Seems kind of pointless.  Just tax gas more and people will drive
           more fuel efficient cars or take the bus.
           \_ Ah yes, I'm sure our awsome Governator would be amenable to that
        \_ it's not fair to SUV drivers.  Most people do not have any
           environmental guilt.  how many people willing to leave their
           car at home and seperate garbage for the sake of environment?
           \_ I do. -ausman
2005/6/11-13 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38085 Activity:low
6/10    Who says the French can't make great cars?
        (Transforming, Dancing Citroen)
        \_ Aside from this one (laser guns and transforming robot capability
           are optional equipment) they make excellent cars, well on par with
           anything you can get from a Jap or US mfgr--except for sports cars,
           trucks or big sedans.  -John
        \_ That's Gaullish genius all right.
           \_ Gaulish.  Gaullish would have been state-funded, really big,
              shiny, fast and super duper expensive.  That said, aside from
              sports cars, pickups/SUVs and large Cadillac-style limousines,
              French cars are as solid as anything on the market.  -John
        \_ Why does some fuckwit keep nuking my comment about French cars
           actually being pretty good?  Got riceboy issues?  -John
           \_ Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys!
           \_ No, it's freedom fries issues.
2005/5/31-6/2 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:37906 Activity:nil
5/31    Has anyone seen the new Honda Civic commercial where they put a
        crash dummy outside of the car and then use the Civic to drive
        into that dummy? Then they say something to the effect "We don't
        just care about the people inside, we also care about the people
        \_ Honda's campaign called "Safety for Everyone".  ACE body structure,
           side airbags, stability control, etc... making these standard on
           their latest releases (and any future models).
           \_ Interesting. According to Court TV, automobile is the best
              murder weapon because you have a much better chance at getting
              involuntary manslaughter (rather than first degree) and
              minimal jail time. This move from Honda would turn away would
              be car murderers to other manufacturers, like Hummer.  -troller
2005/5/18 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:37741 Activity:nil
5/18    Dumbass rednecks: (
        \_ Well I was going to say Darwin, but I forgot that these people
           also out-reproduce more kids.
           \_ Darwin effect only works on things that affect reproduction.
        \_ Kinda unrelated, but what do you call those Berkeley yuppies
           that drive around in full size pickups?
           \_ Dumbass wannabe rednecks.
           \_ Also, what do you call britney and kevin's new tv show?
              \_ White Trash!
2005/4/7-8 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:37108 Activity:very high
4/7     Jesus says gas prices will increase even more this summer.,0,5025383.story
        "When adjusted for inflation, U.S. fuel prices peaked at $3.12 in
        March 1981"
        \_ Premium unleaded at Chevron in Berkeley is $2.92 / gallon.  The
           price for regular is $2.72 / gallon.
           \_ $2.79 and $2.99 at the Shell in San Francisco at 30th and Mission.
           \_ 2.49 and 2.69 at usa on dixon / n. milipitas.
        \_ Um, gas prices go up every summer.  This is a surprise?  If CA wants
           cheaper gas in the summer, maybe we shouldn't require the producers
           to use a wacky blend just for CA.
           \_ ...and then L.A. would be unliveable
        \_ In other news, the price of oil dropped today.
        \_ Just an fyi, the $3.12 figure is highest *average*.  When premium
           self-serve in downtown SF hits $3.13 don't all go crazy.
           Ye may commence hysterics at $3.85 / gallon. -op
           \_ Hysterics?  Don't they already pay more than that in Europe?
              \_ Yes.  And the tax on it here ain't going down, so when  it's
                 at $4/gallon, they UK's paying about 8 or so... -John
        \_ you know, we moan and bitch when gas price is going up while
           shut our mouths when housing price doubled in the past 5 years.
           We pay approx 1/3 of our earnings on rent and/or mortgage while
           only 1/10 to 1/20 of it on gasoline. Our sense of scope is just
           wacked. If anything, we should be moaning and bitching about
           land ownership inequality and things to alleviate this crisis
           instead of something as insignificant as price adjustments in
           gasoline. And I'm all for price hike if it means less people driving
                                                            \_ fewer
             Maybe he means "lesser", as in "those who drive SUVs _/
             are lesser people."
           their damned SUVs and polluting the earth. And I mean it even if
           I have to pay 2X for delivery or anything else like grocery.
           \_ The problem is that oil prices undermine all other prices.  And
              might be able to move to a smaller house and pay less rent/
              mortgage, but everyone has to eat.  And since agriculture
              just uses land to turn petroleum and natural gas into food,
              higher oil prices == higher food prices.
              \_ Plus oil money drains out of the country while housing costs
                 stay. Well, unless it's owned by foreigners and rented out.
                 Actually I'm not sure just what the housing price increases
                 really mean. All that debt goes somewhere. The US debt ends
                 up causing a ton of interest payments to foreign lenders.
                 Oh well this place is screwed, I better get my Euro
                 citizenship in order.
           \_ 75% of us are landowners. Why would we bitch?
              \_ 75% land ownership in America? Wow, America IS rich! Moooo...
                 \_ Well, the number is something over 69%. Do you want to
                    compare that to, say, Germany? It's 43% there.
                 \_ 75% land ownership for EVERYONE, including children under
                    12 years old? Or do you only count after 18 years of age?
                    \_ The homeownership rate is computed by dividing the
                       number of owner-occupied housing units by the number
                       of occupied housing units or households.
        \_ PRAISE JESUS!!!
2005/3/12 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:36660 Activity:kinda low
3/12    SUV as public nuisance:
        SUV drivers cause more fatalities per mile than drivers of other
        vehicles. They are a safety risk to other drivers on the road,
        almost the textbook example of a nuisance.
        1. nuisance -- ((law) a broad legal concept including anything
        that disturbs the reasonable use of your property or endangers
        life and health or is offensive)
        \_ Yes most people know they're evil. Tell that to our governator and
           our oil loving politicians, I'm sure they'll be sympathetic and
           do something about it. Yeah.
        \_ The key phrase is "use of your property", that means real
           property (land) not chattels such as cars. Products liability
           actions against manufacturers of SUVs by people injured in
           accidents w/ SUVs is more promising.
2005/3/11 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:36645 Activity:high
3/11    Drive a car, support Republicans:
        \_ Fox news is blue!
           I'm skeptical.
        \_ My SUV, my car. Keep your laws off my property.  P.S. I'm driving
           and you suckers can walk. Nyah nyah nyah            -conservative
           \_ I want to build a coal fired power plant in my backyard, right
              next door to you. Gotta problem with that?
              \_ Keep your laws of my property is not incompatible
                 w/ the belief that an individuals private property
                 use should not interefe your neighbor's use of his
                 private property. The expectation that one should
                 be free in his own land from interference by the
                 gov. and ones neighbors necessarily means that
                 one must refrain from activities that would
                 interfere w/ the ability of ones neighbors to
                 use their land similarly.
                 A coal fired power plant would be a private (if not
                 public nuisance) and pp would be entitled to an
                 \_ Your SUV is a public nuisance that operates on public
                    highways and uses my tax money to be a pain in the ass.
                    I have far more right to demand regulation of your
                    vehicle than you do to try and control what I do
                    in my own back yard. Hypocrite.
                    \_ The assertion that an SUV is a public nuisance
                       is debatable. A public nuisance is generally
                        \_ It's not, I can't see past them.  They endanger my
                           drive, in addition to making it less efficient and
                           costlier, by preventing me from planning for
                           traffic conditions ahead.  This also applies to
                           semis and vans and pickup trucks, which, like SUVs,
                           can be excused if their size is actually needed
                           (like by gardeners, handymen, etc.)  -John
                           \_ People NEED SUV to protect their frail egos.
                              It is a lot cheaper than seeing shrinks.
                       something fixed on a piece of property that
                       posses a threat to the health and safety of
                       the nearby community. A vehicle does not meet
                       this critera. Even if we assume that an SUV
                       meets the critera, it is debatable whether
                       an SUV posses any healty or safety risk. Many
                       would contend that SUVs are safer than regular
                       cars. In contrast your coal burning plant is
                       fixed next door to "mr conservative's" home
                       and will substantially affect him. Note that
                       if he were to put in such a structure, the
                       general principle provides you the same
                       BTW, I am not "mr conservative", I don't own an
                       SUV, and I have no plans to purchase/rent one
                       unless I find myself on safari in central
                       Africa w/o a nearby subaru dealer.
           \_ You will die in a car accident soon, fucker.
              \_ If he's in an SUV and you're on bike on in a little Honda
                 or Toyota, I think you'll be the one losing.
                 \_ Precisely the definition of a nuisance.
                 \_ No, He'll flip over the side of the mountain and die the
                    fucker that he is.
        \_ Now I'm happy, I have a Mazda that usually runs Chevon.
        \_ Yay. I have a honda and an infiniti.  Guess I need to start buying
           \_ Yah...I drive Toyota and pump Shell gas.
        \_ Why does a company contribute to both parties?
           \_ Hedging
2005/3/9-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:36600 Activity:low 75%like:36642
3/9     This Friday: Berkeley Critical Mass 12th Birthday ride! Party after.
        \_ When are they going to start the protest where they ride around
           throwing maltov cocktails at SUVs?  I'd go to that.
           throwing molotov cocktails at SUVs?  I'd go to that.
           \_ Gasoline to $2.50 by summer.  About half of the necessary $5.
              \_ So maltov cocktails are half-off, what's the problem?
              \_ So molotov cocktails are half-off, what's the problem?
           \_ what's maltov coctails?
                \_ Molotov.  Glass bottle with gasoline inside and a burning
                   rag which is thrown.  Standard rioter equipment.
                   \_ Named after Russian Foreign Mister Vyacheslav
                      Mikhailovich Molotov. Used by the Finns to stop
                      the Russian advance into Finland during the 1940
                      border war. Used by partisans and freedom fighters
                      worldwide, as well as rioters.
                   \_ I was personally sad that no one threw a molotov at
                      W's limo during the inauguration. If 100 brave Liberals
                      threw them then they'd surely make a statement. However,
                      I guess Liberals are just whining chickens. Yeah, a
                      bunch of pussies.            -disillusioned Freeper
                      \_ d00d, security was a bitch.  If you could throw
                         a molotov, you could throw a satchel bomb.
                         security screenings took everything including fruit,
                         so the most you could throw was a snowball
                         \_ and yet, no one even spitted at or threw a
                            snowball. They had this stupid "Turn your back
                            on Bush" crap which no media even showed. At least
                            during the first inauguration someone threw fruits
                            \_ snowball was thrown; if you spit, you had to
                               hock your loogie over the two-row deep line
                               of police
                               \_ If mamby-pamby liberuls chewed like real
                                  men, they could do it.
                                  \_ Hey, wait... can you chew marijuana?
        \_ speaking of tools and cranks.
2005/3/7-8 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:36552 Activity:low
3/7     Why American car companies are gonna die in a decade or two (but we
        all knew that long time ago right?)
        \_ by that logic, european car companies will die first.
           \_ Yes.
2005/3/3-4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:36508 Activity:high
3/3     "AAA Says Average Driving Cost Is 56.2 Cents Per Mile For 2004",,1008010000%257c4513,00.html
        That doesn't even include bridge tolls.  I always thought it's about
        39 cents per mile, per IRS tax forms.
        \_ That's what the IRS gives you, but it's not the real cost.  -tom
           \_ Have you ever estimated the *negative* cost per mile in terms
              of health benefits from riding your bike to work?  That would
              be an interesting calculation.
              \_ I don't know, Viagra can be expensive.
           \_ nog.  that's just the cost of running/maintaining the car.
              it doesn't include the cost say on your health.  or roads.
              \_ Or the cost of suburban sprawl or the cost in lost
                 farmland or the cost to rebuild all the infrastructure
                 left behind in crumbling cities or the cost in broken
                 communities or the cost....
        \_ Public transportation looks better and better once you start
           looking at the full costs of owning a car.  If you drive for
           100 miles, you pay approx $50 ...
           \_ did you include all the taxes people pay into it?
              \_ The taxes paid into the freeway system or the public
                 transportation system?
              \_ Since both public transportation and cars are massively
                 subsidized, that doesn't seem necessary.  And I meant
                 better as in cheaper, not more convenient.  And might
                 become more "convenient" in the next few years as
                 oil prices zoom up.
           \_ Public transporation stinks. The majority of people will
              gladly pay for the additional cost to NOT have to take
              public transportation. As for the health risk, I think
              that you are obviously more likely to die in a car than
              the subway. However, I bet you're more likely to get sick
              from communicable diseases taking the public transport than
              if you were to own your own car.
              In addition, the convenience of a car far outweigh its costs.
              Business also would be a lot less efficient if we had to
              rely on public transport. It may work in high density areas
              like N.Y. N.Y or S.F., but in places like California, especially
              Southern California, it certainly will not work.
              \_ It is already starting to work. When it takes three hours
                 each way to commute from Riverside to LA by car, people
                 start taking the train, as they have already. If transit
                 was as massively subsidized as the car, it could be a
                 high speed rail link and even more would take it.
                 \_ I wouldn't call 3% working. Riverside is also pretty
                    damn far for a commute into the city. Also, most people
                    in LA don't even work in LA.
                    \_ That is a failure of planning. Just wait till gasoline
                       hits $10/gallon.
                 \_ How are cars more massively subsidized than transit?
                       Tremendous costs are associated with buying and
                       paving over all the parking spaces used by cars.
                       \_ Very useful info!  I didn't know heavy rail actually
                          has lower operating cost than light rail.
                       \_ What's the difference between heavy rail and commuter
                        \_ From the linked article:

                           U.S. rail transit services require about $12.5
                           billion annual public subsidy (total capital
                           and operating expenses minus fares), about an
                           extra $90 per Large Rail city resident. However,
                           economic benefits more than repay these subsidies:
                           rail transit services are estimated to provide
                           $19.4 billion in annual congestion cost savings,
                           $8.0 billion in roadway cost savings,
                           $12.1 billion in parking cost savings,
                           $22.6 billion in consumer cost savings, and
                           $5.6 billion in traffic accident cost savings.

                           So in other words, all those people taking BART
                           and Caltrain aren't driving alongside you on
                           \_ My father, a hard core right winger, has
                              come up with his idea of how public transit
                              should work after he worked as a bus driver
                              for a year or so.  Basically, the bus should
                              be free (maybe a dime), and buses should
                              always have right-of-way, and they should
                              have a radio to make lights turn green for
                              them.  People would flock to busses in
                              droves. BART should be free too. -jrleek
                              \_ Turning lights green for the bus doesn't
                                 win you nearly as much as you think; if you
                                 get any kind of regular ridership, the bus
                                 winds up stopping all the time anyway. -tom
                              \_ Lights on San Pablo Ave are already turning
                                 green for the San Pablo Rapid buses.  Check
                              \_ sounds a Socialistic idea.
                                 \_ Yeah.  But in his experiance the
                                    busses were heavily subsidized anyway.
                                    Basically, few rode the things, and
                                    about half or more those who did ride,
                                    rode free or with some discount.  He
                                    gave a lot of free rides.  The money
                                    coming into the till just wasn't
                                    paying for anything anyway. -jrleek
                                    \_ A failure of centralized planning?
                                       I disbelieve!  According to our good
                                       friend tom, it is the free market that is
                                       mathematicall proven (!) not to work.
                                         -- ilyas
                                       \_ Are you really this stup...Oh, right.
                                    \_ I don't get it. I thought conservatives
                                       hate things tied to Socialism.
                                    \_ Not that this is some new idea.
                                       Salt Lake City's light rail system
                                       is free downtown. -jrleek
2005/1/27 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:35928 Activity:very high
1/27    How did a compact SUV, a relatively light object compared to a
        locomotive, cause the train to derail in the LA incident?  I've seen
        some TV documentary where a train hits a school bus.  The school bus is
        cut into two but the train keeps going.
         \_ I think i read that the suicider-suv-er drove his
            car a little farther down on the track and 'parked', so
            the locked wheels combined with the railroad ties
             caused the car to become a very Large Immoveable
             Object.  this is a little different than just
              being in theway at the crossing point.
        \_ I have the same question. Remember the PSA poster saying: "When
           there is a tie at the railroad crossing between a car and a train,
           the train wins."
        \_ Maybe the train here was going faster than the documentary one.
           maybe the track curved at that spot.  who knows..  Wait for a
           TSA report.
        \_ I heard that the engine (the heavy car) was in the rear and the
           the passenger cars in the front are relatively lightweight.
           \_ This is correct: (LATimes, brew your own
           \_ Great Fucking Design!
              \_ Yes, it is a great design. This is a train. It is not an
                 automobile so that the individual cars are not easily
                 moved out of position relative to one another. Ergo
                 engines since time immemorial have always been positioned
                 at the ends to either push or pull the train. Trains are
                 also not designed to break quickly, nor can they turn,
                 reverse directions, or go over terrain which has no
                 track upon it easily. If you ever had a train set or utilized
                 the common sense part of your brain you'd realize this.
                 In addition, if you're thinking about "writing to your
                 representative" to improve train safety because you somehow
                 believe that trains are unsafe, simply lookup the statistic
                 on how many people die from train wrecks per annum vs.
                 how many die from car accidents. If you argue that fewer
                 individual use trains then you may go ahead and utilize the
                 resources on BART and other light rail systems.
                 \_ Holy shit.  A williamc post that isn't *completely* moronic.
                    Of course, you have the usual drooling ad homonem, but
                    this is still a potential precedent setter.
                 \_ He's talking about putting the engine in back.  Pushing
                    a bunch of cars is going to be less stable than pulling
                    them if the front one derails or hits something, and will
                    cause more damage as the whole thing is far more likely
                    to jackknife, especially if there's a locomotive in back
                    that keeps pushing for a few moments.  This is not best
                    practice, and while you're right, trains can't just turn,
                    most rail lines use switching yards to move a second
                    engine to the other end of the train when it has to
                    reverse direction (you generally don't just change the
                    direction of a train from pull to push away from terminal
                    stations, which should have other engines standing by for
                    just this purpose.  As for comparative statistics, they
                    are irrelevant if an accident is avoidable--people still
                    die unnecessarily.  -John
                 \- What if someone hijacked a train and crashed it into the
                    White House?
                    \_ There are train tracks going to the White House?
                       \- They could build underground tracks to the White
                          House as an insider job.
                          \_ ali, sign your posts.
                             \- bigup yourself --alig
                    \_ What if someone built a trebuchet and fired it at the
                       White House?
                       \_ - danh
                    \_ What if someone took a high powered laser and beamed
                       it into Bush's eyeball, from far away, at a speech?
        \_ I wonder how must it would cost to put a simple radar like devie
           in the front of the train, to activate emergency breaks or sound
           alarms if it detects something directly ahead...
           \_ Not expensive, but futile.  Trains are not easy to stop.
              \_ But it doesn't sound like they even tried to stop, the
                 light passenger cars hit the SUV at full speed and derailed.
                 \_ The paper says that conditions were such that the driver
                    likely didn't see the car until s/he was right on top of
           \_ Doesn't work on curves.
              \_ Oh no, not the CURVES, I LOVE THE CURVES!!
              \_ Of course not, no sodans can handle the curves.
                 \_ "I want the curves!"
                    "You can't handle the curves!"
                    \_ Hahahaha, oh we are such dorks, damn I love the csua.
                 \_ All sodans suffer from premature ejaculation?
                    \_ Oh that's sick, go back to your hole..
        \_ And in Al Jazeera, they say "Jeep Cherokee, your new terror weapon"
        \_ The SUV body crumpled, but the SUV's engine block caused the train
           to derail.  It's in one of the LA Times articles.
        \_ Crap on the rails is always a problem.  In Holland, lots of trains
           are apperantly late now because teens are finding it cool to put
           stuff on the rails and watch the trains hit it.  There is always
           a chance that a large heavy piece of something will make a train
2005/1/26 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:35899 Activity:high
1/26    Dear hybrid car experts, can you please tell me what is wrong
        with the design of Honda Accord hybrid? I expected it to have
        great mileage. I mean, that's what people expect right?
        At 255HP and 37MPG, it is roughly 100 more HP and 3MPG more
        than the other Accords. However, I suspect that most Accord
        owners buy Accords not because of HP/speed, but because
        it's economical and has great mileage. At $12,000 over
        the standard Accord price, it's hardly economical (heck I can
        buy other nice cars for $35,000), and at only 3MPG more than
        the old Accords, I have to say, Honda sucks. Why couldn't
        they have come up with something that has EQUAL HP (160HP)
        but much better mileage? Idiots.        -Disapponted Honda Fan
        \_ 255hp?  wow, that will beat the pants off my buddies lancer!
           -r1c3 b0y
        \_ hybrids are good for city driving and would show great
           benefits for high power "get up and go" drivers as compared
           to their regular high output engine.  this makes a lot of
           sense to use it for cushy cars and SUVs that are driven
           poorly from a fuel-efficiency perspective.  hybrids do not
           help w/ long distance cruising where regular engines yield
           reasonable highway MPG ratings.
           \_ To further illustrate this point, the Toyota Prius has better
              city gas mileage than highway.
        \_ prius has 110 hp
        \_ Hybrid engines are new. The current breed only gives about 10%
           milage boost, the new ones coming out in a year or two will give
           around a 25% boost compared to gas only engines.
        \_ I'm thinking of buying the Accord Hybrid exactly because it has
           slightly better gas mileage AND better HP.  Remember, this is the
           top of the line Accord, and is marketed as such.  If you want fuel
           efficiency, get the hybrid Civic.
                \_ Uh, you realize that for $35000, you can get a much
                   nicer car with better name recognition than say, HONDA.
                   I mean, Hondas are reliable and all, but styling is oh
                   so boring (not exactly a chick getting car).
                   \_ Where did you come up with $35k?  MSRP is only $30k.
                      And thats only $3k more than the non-hybrid V6.
                      What other car are you comparing this to?
                        \_ the dealer has a $2K mark up, plus shipping, tax
                           and goodies
                           \_ You have those other fees regardless of what
                              car you look at.  Even +$2k, thats only $5k more.
                   \_ YOU NEED INTEGRA HAAA
                   \_ My penis is large enough, so that I don't need to
                      overcompensate by buying an oversized SUV or sports
                      car "for the chicks".
                   \_ People buy Honda for reliability, and relatively better
                      styling and performance than Toyota.  I'm still waiting
                      to hear what car you'd prefer at $32k.
                      \_ Nissan 350z w/ Performance package -- !pp
2005/1/8 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:35608 Activity:kinda low
1/7     ilya, I'm in LA. I've never in my life been in a traffic jam
        such as the one I was in in the last 3 hours, 1 hour of that
        on a 2 mile stretch. Also I've never in my life seen so many
        aggressive, rude, middle finger pointing SUV drivers. My god,
        how do you stand living here? I hate LA.
        \_ I stay off the freeways, and live within 10 minute's driving
           distance of everywhere I need to go.  When I was first moving
           to LA, I specifically made a longish trip down to look for
           an appropriately placed apartment.  As for your comments on
           the people, the soul of LA is repulsive to me.  Maybe that's
           why I don't like UCLA. -- ilyas
           \_ the sould of <insert your hometown> is repulsive to me
        \_ Pfft, like it's any better in the bay area. You ever been
           stuck on the bay bridge during rush? Anyway, if you had any
           sense about LA, you'd learn to get OFF the freeway
           during times like these. ANd yes, they drive agressive,
           none of this pussy ass driving you get in the bay area.
           \_ Agressive? In California?  Yeah, whatever.  Go drive around
              New York City for a while, and you'll learn what agressive
              driving means.  Or Boston.  Agressive driving is when you're
              sitting at a red light with your *left* blinker on, and someone
              honks at you for not running the light, swerves around you
              on your right, flips you off and honks again, and then cuts
              in front of you to turn *left* on the red.  Ever see that in
        \_ learn to drive aggressively in LA. People here drive A LOT,
           and waste a lot of time stuck in traffic so naturally they're
           pissed about having to drive, let alone getting along with passive
           drivers like you.
                \_ LA drivers are not aggressive, they're just plain shitty.
                   they don't know how to drive, period. if it rains, they
                   slow down to 5mph. even if there's moisture on the road,
                   they slow down to the same. if there's a cop on the side
                   of the road, they slow down to rubberneck. they are all
                   assholes 1) who can't drive and 2) are moronic enough
                   to subject themselves to LA traffic year after year.
                   \_ I find the opposite problem in NoCal; drivers treat
                      too many drivers drive on wet roads like it's dry.
                      It's annoying, not to mention dangerous.  In any
                      case, LA traffic is easily managed if you have
                      familiarity with surface streets, many of which
                      can cut your commute times in half.
2005/1/8 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:35599 Activity:moderate
1/7     This is one of the worst SUV trolls I've seen on SF Gate:
        \_ It wasn't that much of a troll -- the author didn't even include
           the obligatory Small Penis Syndrome in the article.
        \_ I wonder if the author ever commutes by carpool or public transit.
        \_ "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American
        \_ It is kind true. Most people I know who buys SUVs thinking it
           gives them more ego and power. It's stupid. Some people I know
           needs an SUV, they do a lot of camping, biking, and off road type
           of deals. But most are the idiots who commutes with it and thinking
           that it will allow them to pick up girls. I've seen some big ass
           SUVs lately and it bothers me, these fuckers are the reason we
           are madly at war...
           \_ I think a significant fraction are the people who really
              should have gotten a mini-van, but couldn't deal with that
              as their automotive self image.  So they bought something
              that weighs as much but is less safe, convenient, comfortable
              or practical because they're in denial about being middle
              aged parents.
           \_ I bought my first SUV 12yrs ago, years before the term "SUV" was
           \_ I bought my first SUV 12yrs ago when I was in Cal and single,
              years before the term "SUV" was coined.  A friend of mine bought
              a minivan 9yrs ago when he was single, years before the minivan
              \_ 9 years ago was pre 80s?
                 \_ It's that "new math."
2004/10/17-18 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:34174 Activity:nil
10/16   Fleeing SUV Suspected of Carrying Illegal Immigrants Causes
        11-Car Crash, Killing Six in Ariz.
2004/10/12-13 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:34055 Activity:very high
10/12   What are some of the most villaineous FICTIONAL vehicles known to
        people? I'll start the list:
        \_ There have to be half a hundred from star trek.
           \_ "S.S. Botany Bay?!"
              \_ Borg cube?
        \_ Christine.
        \_ Didn't KITT have a archenemisis?
           \_ KATT.
           \_ KARR
           \_ Don't forget Goliath, driven by Michael Knight's evil twin.
        \_ Death Star. NOTHING beats the villaineous level of Death Star
        \_ The Ford Explorer.  Read:
           \_ Explorer is fictional?
        \_ General Lee. "Good ol' boys" my ass...
           \_ Hate any white people, lately?
        \_ The Mobile Chemical/Biological Lab.  Powell said it was!
        \_ The Popemobile
        \_ The Love Bug
        \_ Barbie's Corvette
        \_ Toss-up between PUSSY WAGON and that tan station wagon driven by
           the Illinois nazis in Blues Brothers.  -John
        \_ Are we talking about movies/tv shows or books?  Gray Area
           a.k.a. Meatfucker was pretty evil... but I am not sure he qualifies
           as a 'vehicle.' -- ilyas
                \_ Only in a Hannibal Lecter only-scoops-and-eats-brains-of-
                   mean-people "evil" kind of way.  That said, would you
                   classify Skaffen-Amtiskaw or Mawhrin-Skel/Flere-Imsaho as
                   "vehicles"?  They're "evil" in the same way.  </geek> -John
        \_ There's the evil truck from "The Duel".
2004/10/9 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:33999 Activity:moderate
        Summary of a study: Drivers of Gas Guzzling Large SUVs
        Support Bush, Kerry Finds Votes Among Drivers of Small
        Import Vehicles
        \_ Wonder if my Outback counts as a Gas Guzzling SUV?
2004/10/5-6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:33930 Activity:very high
10/5    Republican Car vs Democrat Car:
        Hummer: Republican
        Prius:  Democrat
        M1 Abrams Tank: Libertarian
        Bulldozer: Likud
        Lowered VW bus with Porsche Engine and big stereo: non-voter
                   \_ Bug?
        Public transportation: America hating libuhral
        Bike: Green
        \_ This is stupid. --aaron
           \_ BWM 525i
              \_With an "I'd rather be smashing imperialism" bumpersticker.
              \_ Huh?
                 \_ Don't you drive a BMW 525i aaron?
                 \_ Don't you drive a BMW 525i?
          \_ no sense of humour
             \_ this is your idea of wit? i've got some archives of 1993
                internet humor that could keep you in stitches. --aaron
                \_ please forgive aaron. He's one of those people who like
                   to say things like "when I was your age the computer
                   lab was in W.E.B. (workstations in Evan's basement)
                   and a bit was ye big and I programmed in registers
                   but then I got into politics and stopped being funny."
                   \_ Back in my day, we didn't have no electricity, we
                      used gas, and dagnabit, we liked it! Back then we used
                      to clack numbers together. We didn't have none of these
                      digital computers.
                      \_ You had numbers?  We could only dream that someone
                         would invent the zero in my day....
        Nazi: Mercedes
           \_ VW.
           \_ Porsche.
           \_ Dodge (but really, VW bug. Ein Volk! Ein Wagen!)
2004/10/4-6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:33920 Activity:moderate
        I've been saying this for a while but no one listens to me.
        Living in suburbs increases our dependency on automobiles and
        decreases our standard of living (traffic/waste of time/
        pollution). In addition, living in suburbs may increase
        isolation and depression.
        \_ Uh... duh?
        \_ In other news, whiny metrosexuals post non-news items that
           we already knew twenty years ago. Thank you for playing.
           \_ That's a weird response. Weirdo.
        \_ Oh no! We should go back in time and kill Eisenhower to stop it
                \_ what does Ike have anything to do with this?
                   \_ Something to do with the Interstate system?
        \_ recent article in the NYTimes Magazine countering this very idea.
           Some points the author makes are good, though many are weak.
           Link to mirror since its archived on already:
                       - rory
        \_ Is this just an around about way of saying Republicans: evil/stupid
           and Democrats: good/smart?  We should all pack into a tight city,
           sell our SUVs, walk crime ridden streets carrying our groceries
           home on our bikes singing kumbaya?  Hint: the suburbs are packed
           full of SUV driving democrats.
           \_ right.  so the only alternatives are living in some kind of
              massive urban shithole like SF or some kind of massive
              suburban shithole like orange county, huh? you just keep
              thinking that, and those of us who live someplace decent
              won't have to see your dumb ass.
              \_ Nice personal slam.  Tell us what fanatastic and unique place
                 you live in and we'll talk about it.  Until then you're just
                 blowing smoke.  I won't bother calling you any names.  It
                 isn't necessary.
2004/9/1-2 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:33278 Activity:high
9/1     Cadillac Night Vision is about $2000. If I buy off shelf components,
        what exactly would I need to get, from where, and for how much?
        I like Night Vision but I don't like Cadillacs.
        \_ Yet another distracting gimic. I would rather spend a fraction of
           that money to buy Xenon headlights instead. It turns night into
           \_ I don't want it to see where I'm going.  I want one for my
              twin 40mm Mk19 autocannon popup turret so I can sneak up on
              cocksuckers in their SUVs and make smoking road pancake without
              them ever knowing what hit them.  -John
           \_ Generally I'd agree, although for anyone without autodim mirrors,
              Xenons on other drivers can be very annoying to have in your
              \_ I thought the same thing too. But then I took a closer
                 look at a Xenon at night compared to a standard halogen
                 and it wasn't anymore blinding. I get more pissed of at
                 large SUVs on the road using their halogens than people
                 with Xenons. And Xenons are more projected than diffuse
                 so you get a more precise aim (and cutoff). The problem
                 with some cheapo Xenons are the lack of auto-leveling
                 which most decent Xenons nowdays should have.
                 \_ I dunno, when I see xenon lights on the other side of
                    the freeway, I get pissed.
                    \_ You must be a very angry man.
                 \_ I want to kill both.  SUV lighting sucks.  Xenon sucks.
                    I don't want to be blinded by either one.
                    \_ Agreed.  I really have doubts how much is utility, and
                       how much is trendy-suv-starbucks-pink-is-the-new-orange
                       \_ You obviously don't own a car with xenon lights.
                          The difference is huge and I would never own a
                          car without them again. As for blinding, my car
                          has a self-dimming rear-view mirror so it's not
                          a problem.
                          \_ Fair enough.
                          \_ *Your* car does.  The *other* drivers you're
                             fucking *BLINDING!* do not!
        \_ FYI, you should check out the Cadillac CTS-V.  Might just change your
           mind - it rivals the BMW M5.  5.7 liter V8, 400 horses, 0-60 in
           4.7 seconds, 395 ft lb. of torque, track-capable handling,
           huge brakes.  Admittedly it doesn't have the beemer's steering
           feel and compromises the handling a little bit for comfort, but
           its still a monster.
           \_ Wow, great marketspeak!  Did you get paid to post that?
           \_ Speaking of which, E60 M5 on Nurburgring:
           \_ Is it made in Germany by big-breasted blonde Aryan women?
           \_ Too ugly. And expensive. Why would I want something that merely
              "rivals" the real thing?
              \_ To be fair, I'd give GM credit for recently reinventing
                 Cadillac into a sport/luxury car vendor that _indeed_ rivals
                 BMW, Lexus, etc. I thought this brand was going to be a toast
                 three years ago. Most pre-pension age people would hate to be
                 found dead in one of their cars. Now, GM is talking about
                 exporting Cadillacs into Europe again. This is a sign that
                 they started making cars that people would like to buy.
2004/8/5 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:32715 Activity:nil
        Yes, I'm a hater. Now get your huge ass vehicle off my roads.
        \_ YES!
2004/7/4-5 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:31162 Activity:very high
7/4     Poll, how long did your last few cars last? Include cars that you
        grew up with as well, I'll start:
        dad's 83 Pontiac: 0-85K, total piece of shit, wouldn't start, engine
                died in U turns (something about turning the wheels),
        86 Honda Accord: 0-170K, transmission rebuilt at 150K. Still
                running but decided to sell it
        mom's 88 Toyota Camry: 0-110K, needed a lot of repairs, total piece
                of shit, already needs new transmission.
        98 Honda Accord: 0-120K, still running like a bunny.
        \_ 89 Olds Cutlass Supreme: 0-225k, still going.  Only routine
        \_ This is actually kind of interesting, but will get way too long.
           How about moving it to /csua/tmp/carsurvey or something? -John
                \_ HEIL John, the native German speaker. Have you ever driven
                   on the Autobahn and what is it like there?
                   \_ That's about as funny as you look, and yes, and it's
                      a lot of fun except that the (at least the ones in
                      a lot of fun except that krauts (at least the ones in
                      cheap cars) are crappy drivers.  -John
                   \_ I spoke no German but I did drive there for a few days.
                      I always stayed in the slow lane because my car wasn't
                      up to the task and Krauts seemed all crazy.  It was
                      like a rock in a rapid.
        97 Cavalier: 0-100k, replaced fucked up engine with a 50k one.  50k
                     miles later, it died every now and then if i step on the
                     brakes after i've started the engine and started to move.
        \_ mom's last few Ford Escorts needed major repairs at around 100K.
           I'm having a very hard time convincing her to buy Japanese. She's
           kind of old fashioned and patriotic. Anyone have this problem?
           \_ yeah, yermom is only putting out for the white guys.  she won't
              do asians and they're a major part of the market!
        \_ 84 Volvo 760 GLE 107-147K mi, was okay until the timer belt
                belt broke
           87 Nissan Maxima, 55K-70K mi, was okay until the transmission
           96 Toytoa Corrola, 0-60K mi, great car had it till early 2003.
                I drove it to cal for 2 yrs, 1 yr to work, my brother
                drove it 4 yrs to cal, 1 yr to work.
           96 Lincoln Continental, 22K-55K mi, another great car. Lots of
                power (220+ hp v8), perfect for passing riced civis w/ n0z.
                Dealer was very nice, would fix every little thing for free.
                Favorite quote about my car: "Shet, you can fit NINE dead
                Russians in trunk". Sold it in 2003 because I got tired of
                paying for 91 octane gas (esp. since the car got 16 mpg)
           03 Subaru Outback, 0-13k mi (to date). best car I've owned.
                Plus points: good gas mileage (22.5 mpg), AWD, lots of storage
                space for my mtb and stuff. Minus points: no cassette player
                (can't drink Kool-aid, err..., use an iPod in the car). Will
                hold on to this one for a while. Trying to convince my mom
                that she needs an 05 w/ turbo's :-)
                \_ Have you considered getting an FM transmitter for your
                   iPod? They are cheap.
                        \_ I tried the iRock, the Belkin and the iTrip.
                           None of them work very well in the s. bay.
                           This is a $80 FM transmitter that is sort
                           of illegal that works well but I don't want
                           to get stopped by a cop on 101. I'm waiting
                           till my warranty runs out so that I can repl.
                           the head unit.
        \_ 89 Honda Civic 235K miles - Pretty much indestructable, almost
                totalled it at one point, was repaired just fine.  Traded it
                in for a luxury car during dot com boom.
        \_ American cars made during the 60's and early 70's were truly great,
           indestructible (but consumes lots of gas).  After that they became
           like crap.  What's the reason?
           \_ After that OPEC happened and the whole auto industry took a
              nosedive. Cars just became unsellable and people wanted smaller,
              low mpg vehicles. When that happened Toyota and VW bugs became
                \_ high?
              exceedingly popular. Detroit scrambled but were not used to
              building cars like this, hence the cars went to crap. This
              tradition is still evident today, where American companies like
              GE are basically selling trucks in the form of SUVs and
              passenger cars are basically the domain of the Japanese.
                \_ it is clear that you hippy tree-hugging liberals have
                   never been to Texas
                   \- hello i have a 91 honda civic @118k which seems to be
                      doing ok although the power seems to have gotten
                      even lower but i am pretty hard on the car like driving
                      down third ave really fast over the construction bumps
                      after mumbling "punch it baby" and humming the theme
                      to the streets of san francisco.
2004/6/30 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:31078 Activity:insanely high
6/30    Car question:  How long do your brake pads last, generally?  I'm
        talking highway and surface street driving, not off-roading.
        \_ Depends on the type of car and on your driving habits. Brakes
           generally last longer for cars than for suv/mini-vans. If you
           ride the brakes, then the life will be significantly reduced.
           My exp. has been that brake pads last at least 25K miles and
           usually between 30K and 40K miles.
           \_ More general statement than "cars vs. suv/mini-vans" is
              that lighter the car, longer the pads will last, assuming
              similar driving styles.
              BTW, replace them yourself.  Drums are a bit messy, but
              discs are really easy.
              \_ I wouldn't trust my life on my own automotive repair skills.
                 \_ seconded
                 \_ but you might save $20!!!!
                 \_ As opposed to HS dropouts who doze off during mechanics
                 \_ So you would trust your life on some complete idiotic
                    stranger who earns minimum wage rather than yourself?
        \_ every 45K for me. 80% freeway 20% others
2004/5/30-31 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:30498 Activity:high
5/30    Does anyone know where I can find average gas mileage for a give
        car/year?  I have a 1994 Saturn SL2, it gets about 27 mpg.  I was
        just curious if that's average.  (About half in town, half freeway
        \_ I just put in one of those Tornados and increased my mpg from
           13 to 16 (it's not an SUV, just old).  They're $65, but it's
           kinda fun to see the improvement.  I only post because I'm
           proud of it somehow.
        \_ is a good place for all car stuff.
           yousr: Manual: 25 mpg / 34 mpg  Automatic: : 23 mpg / 32 mpg
           In my experience, it is normal to fall in the low end of the
           range unless you drive like a grandma. -phuqm.
2004/5/27 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:30445 Activity:high
5/26    Does anyone know anything about the Unbreakable Autolock? It's like a
        Club that fits on your brake pedal. I can't find any user reviews
        online (like on amazon, epinions, etc). Thanks.
        \_ If you have a car that's so expensive that you're worried about
           it being stolen then it's probably already got some kind of
           immobilizer chip built in.
                \_ Not at all. It's a low-price car, one that's very easy
                   to break into. I know all these anti-theft devices
                   can be broken, but I just want a cheap, easy deterrent.
           \_ Um, not only expensive cars get stolen. Hondas, especially in
              California, are among the most cars stolen.
           \_ Camrys and Tauruses are in the top 5 or 10 most frequently stolen
              cars.  I don't think the OP's concerns are unreasonable.
              \_ They are in the top 5 most numerous cars, which is why
                 they are most stolen.
                 \_ I think it has more to do with ease of entry, etc.  These
                    cars are pretty renowned for being very easy to break
                    into.  I don't think this contradicts my earlier point,
                    None of these are particularly 'expensive' or likely to
                    have elaborate anti-theft electronics.
                 \_ I think the statistics is how many stolen per 1000 cars.
                    \_ No. If you want those statistics then look here:
                       Camry doesn't even make the list.
              \_ Tauruses?  No fucking way.  I've parked mine in the worst
                 neighrborhoods and industrial back alleys for 7 years and
                 the worst thing that happened is some dipshit used it for a
                 shelf and scratched the hood in a campus parking lot.  I
                 *wish* someone would have stolen it when the replacement
                 value was higher.
                 \_ See above link.
                    \_ Reading the link didn't help me get my Taurus stolen
                       about 4 years ago.  I considered leaving the keys in
                       and walking away but I'm not that unethical.
                       \_ There's a wider world outside your skull and limited
                          experience, you know.
                          \_ you're an idiot.  i just wanted my car stolen.
        \_ AutoLock - about $60 (pro version), the older version is about $30
           I think somewhere someone was still able to break it, however it
           is very hard to.  Get it at Kragen.
                \_  thanks. -op
2004/5/21 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:30348 Activity:very high
5/21    My boss's new black BMW got keyed recently along the length of the car.
        He tried to buff it out, but the scratch is still there.  Any
        recommendations?  Thanks.  No, I didn't do it.
        \_ are you the world's biggest sycophant? why do you even care?
        \_ Comprehensive insurance. My car got keyed and I paid $50 out-of-
           pocket. $100 and $150 are more common of more  expensive cars.
           \_ Bad suggestion. Your insurance will go up. Don't file frivolous
              \_ That's what comprehensive insurance is for.. it includes
                 minor theft / vandalism and isn't supposed to count
                 towards your premium going up. They aren't allowed to
                 hike your premiums for these things. BTW, this also
                 includes things like cracks in your windshield from
                 rocks on the freeway
              \_ My premium didn't go up. Claims against comprehensive
                 (because they're committed by acts of vandalism or acts
                 of God) don't increase your premium. Check with your
                 \_ "If God lived on Earth, people would knock out all His
                     windows." -- Yiddish saying
                 \_ Anything under $500 or so should not increase your premium.
                    But most comprehensive come with a deductible that you
                    have to pay out of your pocket.  If you have $250 or $500
                    deductible, not worth it.
                    \_ Mine was over $500 and it didn't increase my premium.
                       The point is that it wasn't your fault and was
                       completely out of your control. In that case, it should
                       not count against you as it would if you were simply
                       a bad driver. $250-$500 deductibles are pretty steep.
                       I've never seen them that high although it would be
                       \- Helo I dont think you understadn moral hazard.
                          Anyway, if you file a lot of claims, it may suggest
                          you somehow more expensive to insure ... whether that
                          is because you live/work/park in a bad area, have
                          a nasty bumper sticker that pisses off people and
                          gets your car keyed, whether you have a stalker or
                          neighbor who hates you. Unless an insurance co is
                          regulated against using filed claimed as signals,
                          it probably makes sense for things like this to have
                          an effect on primiums. --psb
                       \_ You must be paying high premium.  How often do you
                          claim for comprehensive?
                          \_ Not really. I only filed once because some
                             asshole who deserves to be gang-raped in
                             San Quinton keyed my mid 90's car.
                             \_ If you hadn't blocked his driveway,
                                he wouldn't have keyed your car.
                          \_ I had a $100 deductible on my comprehensive (I
                             don't have comprehensive any more).  Came in handy
                             when a rock cracked our windshield (and the
                             windshield cost $900 to replace).
          \_ Do you drive a BMW or sports car?
        \_ If your boss drives a BMW, he/she must have money pay for such minor
           damages.  Why even trying to waste your precious time to even
           find a cheap way to fix it.
           \_ because he's the one who keyed it
              \_ Loser #1:  No one likes wasting money, even BMW drivers.
                 Loser #2:  I didn't do it.
                 \_ Loser #3: ass kisser.
                    \_ Oh yes, I see now how this discussion has evolved.
           \_ BMW drivers have hearts and souls, too.  And sometimes not\
             so snobby as to think "$500 is nothing." --chris
             \_ It's actually amazing what misconceptions people have of
                BMW as being an expensive car. Relatively speaking, a
                3-series actually costs less than those monsterous SUVs
                and even many sedans that look cheap (Subaru STi, Evo,
                G35, Lexus, etc.).
                \_ X5
                \_ My 3 series was over $40K. Lexus, G35, and such were
                   almost $10K cheaper. It is expensive for what it is. By
                   the way, keeping a low deductible is a waste of money.
                   Get one with $500 or $1000 and use it only when you need it.
                   \_ Lexus and G35 are pieces of crap.  Just because they're
                      $10K cheaper doesn't mean it's a good value.  You should
                      have bought a used 5-series for the same money. -chris
                      \_ That's actually true. Edmunds uses to concept of
                         true-cost-of-ownership  which factors in things
                         like mileage, depreciation, and maintainance costs.
                         BMWs have free maintainance for the first 3 years.
                         They hold their value pretty well and they're
                         pretty fuel efficient. Their lame SUVs, on the
                         other hand, are a different story.
                      \_ I think Lexus is a better car and my next car
                         might well be a Lexus. Also, if I wanted a 5
                         series I would've gotten a 5 series. I didn't
                         want a 5 series.
                         \_ Latest issue of Consumer Reports shows that
                            reliability for Mercedes & BMW is in the dumps.
                            Japanese luxury cars don't have that problem.
                            \_ Yep. My neighbor has a Mercedes and a
                               Volvo. His next car? Toyota Avalon. He's
                               sick of the problems and his last Toyota
                               had none.
                            \_ most of that is about trim pieces and such, as
                               opposed to costly mechanical stuff, but yeah.
                               \_ Look at it this way. I have had all 4
                                  power window regulators replaced under
                                  warranty at $400 each. When the warranty
                                  goes out that is not a cheap repair. Add
                                  in the time I wasted with my car in the
                                  shop and the frustration (one broke on
                                  my way to a concert and I had to go back
                                  home to switch cars!) and it sucks! My
                                  Honda hasn't had one regulator replaced
                                  yet in TWICE the time!
                   \_ Well the 3 series price range is huge, the base ones are
                      retail 28K, invoice under 26. There are quite a lot of
                      cars in the 30-40K range that people don't get this
                      attitude over (Ford Explorer). High end brands just each
                      have connotations about what kind of people own them.
                      But for some reason Audi and Acura and even Lexus I think
                      don't have that brand image. Probably because it wasn't
                      until the 90's that they really got in the game.
2004/4/26 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:13380 Activity:nil
4/26    Kerry doesn't own an SUV, his family does:,1280,-4009850,00.html
        \_ Oooh!  Tell us about Roger Clinton!
        \_ Funny how he both uses his wife as a dodge, by saying it's not
           really *his* car, and sets himself up as a hero for buying
           an American car.  So, is owning a Chevy SUV good or bad Mr.
        \_ 'Cos when your own candidate is suffering due to a war he created
           and the lies he told, it's best to point to his opponent's car.
           \_ The point here is that Kerry lied about owning the car
              because he didn't want to look bad. He should've just told
              the truth. He is a career politican in the worse sense.
        \_ 1 SUV is less expensive than 80 billion to invade iraq
              \_ unlike Bush?
              \_ Oh Bullpucky. I hate my wife's car and would sell it in
                 a hearbeat if I could, but since she bought it before
                 we were married I just have to put up with it. I am sure
                 with a millionaire wife, she can buy whatever car she
                 likes, with or without her husbands permission. It is not
                 "his" car unless he drives it. Does he drive it?
              \_ This is just sad.  The man's wife's car is about as relevant
                 to this campaign as Laura Bush's formerly liberal ideals.
                 \_ As I pointed out above, I don't care what he drives,
                    but the fact that he's making such pathetic attempts
                    to lie about it.  Not to mention, but since they are
                    married, it IS "his" car.
                    \_ I am pretty sure married people can own property
                       seperately. Am I wrong here?
                       \_ For those who espouse traditional family values
                          as republicans do, marriage is an absolutely form
                          of bondage.  Yes.
                          \_ Don't be an idiot.  It has nothing to do
                             with republicans.  They didn't set up the
                             marriage and divorce laws.
                    \_ When you get married to an independent woman, check
                       back in with us.  Until then, get a life.
                       \_ So says the same sort of idiot that put in place
                          the "divorce means the woman gets half the man's
                          stuff" laws.  According to the law, just
                          property is jointly held.  (Unless they have a
                          prenup that says otherwise.)
                          \_ Which state?  California is a community property
                             state.  How about Massachussetts?  And if you
                             ask me if I support Windows, I'll tell you no,
                             because I own and use a Mac exclusively; my
                             wife's PC is nothing to do with me, despite my
                             community property interest.  This is pure
                             bullshit semantics.
                          \_ You don't know what you are talking about:
                             "Separate property is property that each spouse
                              owned before the marriage. Separate property
                              also includes inheritances and gifts (except
                              perhaps gifts between spouses) acquired during
                              marriage. During and after the marriage, each
                              spouse may keep control of his or her separate
                              property." She came into the marriage worth
                              $400M, surely she is able to afford to buy
                              her own seperate car, unless they have
                              comingled their accounts. Do you have any
                              evidence otherwise?
2004/4/23 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:13355 Activity:nil
4/23    Why buy an SUV?  Why did you buy an SUV?  (two separate questions)
        \_ skiing and camping.
           \_ You could do that with any car.
        \_ to feel like a Big Man.
        \_ i'm very short.  related to big man above.
        \_ They're just station wagons really, for most users. I'm sure you
           understand the market for those. For SUVs then you just compare
           looks and price, plus SUVs sometimes have things like 4WD or
           towing capacity. There do exist people who take SUVs offroading.
           \_ So why aren't then people buying station vagons instead
              of the usually bigger, bulker, and more expensive SUVs?
              \_ Some are.  I am a happy subaru owner.  Subaru > SUV, unless
                 you have 'unique needs' and then it's probably hummer > SUV.
                 Most people I know who own SUVs are women who like the feeling
                 of safety.  I should add, I have nothing against SUVs or
                 people who ride them.  They are just not really my aesthetic.
                   -- ilyas
                 \_ Subarus can't really tow or offroad, and are rather small
                    for family purposes.
                    \_ Heh.  Ask geordan about offroading subarus.  Also,
                       some subarus are quite large.  Forester is essentially
                       a station wagon built on a sedan body.  Another thing
                       I forgot to mention is the way SUV emissions are
                       classified -- an SUV lets you get away with a bigger
                       engine, which some people like. -- ilyas
                       \_ I think they call the Forester an SUV. But no Subaru
                          is "large". Forester is tiny compared to Acura MDX
                          let alone a Suburban.
                     \_ Hmm, ever heard of rally racing?
                        \_ rally racing is done on dirt roads.
                           \_ A subaru certainly offroads as well as most
                              SUVs currently on the market, and likely better
                              than a few.  Most SUVs made today are made for
                              roads. -- ilyas
                              \_ All SUVs are made for roads. But I say your
                                 "most" statement is wrong. I can think of
                                 quite a few that will be much better. It's
                                 not relevant that some may not be better.
                                 \_ A Jeep Wrangler and that boxy Mercedes thing
                                    which costs 70k are not made for roads --
                                    they are a horrible ride on roads, but
                                    they are great for offroading.  We should
                                    compare SUVs to Subarus.  The Subaru
                                    bottleneck is relatively low clearance,
                                    the SUV bottleneck is the high center
                                    of gravity -- both bad things. -- ilyas
              \_ I just said. Consider a couple examples of car-based SUVs,
                 Toyota Highlander and Honda CR-V. They're not more wasteful
                 than the Camry or Civic they're based on. I don't think there
                 even exists a Civic wagon. The last Camry wagon I saw was butt
                 ugly and I doubt it offered 4WD or had as much room. QED.
                 \_ What are you smoking?  Go look at, and look at
                    mpg for a CR-V vs civic.  CRV gets 10 mpg less, and has a
                    bigger engine (to push its greater weight...).  Civic wagons
                    were great, alas phased out in 91 (I own one) - but you still
                    see them all over, because they were very reliable and
                    versatile.  Too bad they quit making them...
                    \_ Ok CR-V has a 2.4L, 160hp engine. 23/28 mpg. The
                       Civic Si, also 160hp, has 26/30. The Civic can't tow
                       anything and has a lot less room, and doesn't offer AWD.
                       Here's the Highlander difference:
                       Highlander: 3.3L 230hp, 19/25
                       Camry SE V6 3.3L 225hp, 20/29
                       By the way I don't even have an SUV, I'm just arguing
                       out of boredom.
                       \_ I should mention that mileage and AWD are a tradeoff
                          because AWD is heavy.  This is part of the reason why
                          subaru mileage isn't as good as that of comparable
                          cars.  Incidentally, what is this 'can't tow
                          anything' thing?  What do you want to tow?  Other
                          cars?  Elephants?  I've seen any old sedan (subaru
                          including) towing those two-wheel cargo things with
                          boats, and all sorts of other stuff.  -- ilyas
                          \_ I've never seen a Civic towing anything. Some
                             people have large stuff to tow. Subarus actually
                             have more towing options than most normal cars,
                             but couldn't handle large trailers.
                          \_ Ilya, remind me to start some elephant-towing
                             threads sometime.
        \_ I think Subarus and Hondy CR-Vs are good alternatives to
           the larger SUVs.  I know that some people have a true need
           for larger SUVs, but what about those who think it just looks cool?
        \_ Vanity is the only reason to buy an SUV, that and increasing
           the risk of killing other people or killing your entire family
           in a rollover. If you need passenger space, get a van. If you need
           4WD get a sedan or truck. If you carry cargo, get a truck.
           The only reason to buy an SUV is vanity.
           \_ Safety is a good reason.  SUVs ARE safer in non-rollover
              collisions.  It's also easier to armorplate an SUV if you are
              into that sort of thing.  Easier emission standards for SUVs
              is yet a third reason.  Did you read anything in this thread?
              \_ please post your name so i can go laugh at your funeral.
                 \_ Dumbass.
2004/4/15-16 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:13215 Activity:nil
4/15    I was riding my motorcycle to work today, and a guy in an SUV
        pulled up next to me at a stop sign an yelled, "You Bitch!"
        When I turned to look at him he asked me the way to the
        freeway in a thick Chinese accent.  I told him.
        \_ Thanks for sharing.
        \_ Eh?  Trying to map what he said into something else he might
           have been trying to say, coming up empty...
           \_ That's what I couldn't get either.  It must have been
              "excuse me" right?  But even with a Chinese accent that's
               not even close...
               \_ "excuse, which" maybe?  And then got flustered and
                  started over?
                  \_ "Hey you. Which way to the freeway?" which you only heard
                     the first part of? Or maybe something Mandarin or
        \_ Now that I think about it, maybe it was some kind of sociology
           experiment.  We could all get in on this fun.  Walk up to someone
           on the street, mutter an explitive, and when they look at you,
           politely as the time of day.
           \_ It probably helps if you're a nice looking Chinese guy with
              an accent.
2004/4/8 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:29909 Activity:nil
4/7     Stoplight to punish suburban speeders in Pleasanton:
2004/3/31-4/1 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:12940 Activity:kinda low
3/31    Our policy on cutting down dependency on foreign oil:
        \_ There are times when I wish Spike Bike were around.  -John
           \_ Spike Bike?
              \_ A cloud of brown dust stretched as far as the eye
                 could see along old route 126. From my vantage point
                 behind an old barn, I watched the grim parade. For
                 the third time in less than a minute, a huge gravel
                 truck rumbled past, spewing acrid, black smoke and
                 kicking up more of the brown mud-dust and spreading it
                 all over everything.

                 Including me.  I'm Spike Bike.  I hate cars.

                 Taking out a tractor-trailer rig isn't easy.  You
                 might be able to get a grenade into the cab, but if
                 it bounces back at you, you're finished. You can
                 sometimes shoot out all the tires on one side of the
                 tractor and the truck will jackknife, but it takes at
                 least half a mag, and half the time you won't get all
                 the tires. I had to face the fact that a MAC-10
                 submachinegun and a few grenades just weren't going
                 to do the job against these monstrosities.
                 \_ MORE!
                       \_ Thank you!
                 \_ Why not just shoot at the external gas tank?
                    \_ Diesel fuel plus you need lots more oxygen for a
                       useful response.
                       \_ Oh, diesel doesn't explode.  I see.  So all those
                          action movie scenes where trucks run off bridges and
                          hit the ground below and then explode are not real.
                          \_ I have some news that might come as a shock to you
                             about the tooth fairy, too.
2004/3/26-27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:12878 Activity:nil
3/26    Honda Element and Scion.  Ugly or not?  Cool or not?
        \_ live closer to work and walk, jackass.
        \_ I have always said that SUVs were ugly, bugly, and fugly. But
           both Element and Scion take the word ugly to a whole new
           level. No, they're not cool (even for a fad). If you want cool,
           get a MINI. They're much more fun to drive.
           \_ i love my mini... cooper, that is.
           \_ i love my mini.
           \_ Whole new level?  I don't know.  The Aztek is currently
              far and away the ugliest thing on four wheels.
              \_ OH GOD!!! I guess I completely forgot about the Aztec
                 because people just stopped buying them. Yeah, there
                 are no words to describe how ugly the Aztec is.
              \_ I dunno man, the H2 is pretty dang ugly.
              \_ YUGO!
              \_ The Element is all about being practical, while not
                 looking boring.  Pretty much spot on for 30something
                 \_ I thought it catered to the teenagers and young 20
                    somethings.  I've read articles about that.
        \_ I love the Element, and would totally buy it.
           The Scion looks weird, but it is a good deal for what you get.
        \_ Odyssey, baby:
           Or the Vamos:
           And when you're ready to move, there's always the ACTY:
        \_ Order of ugly:
                PT Cruiser
                Scion Xb
                Subaru Baja
           Honda wanted to sell the Element to 20-30 somethings but
           they failed miserably and everyone driving them is over 40.
           Drive one if you think putting around in a plastic
           kleenex box is cool.
2004/3/12 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:12637 Activity:very high
3/12    I know this is a liberal pipe-dream, but imagine that, instead of
        spending $87B on Iraq every year, hundreds of billions on tax cuts,
        and the prescription drug [company] benefit, we spent $300B a year
        on a simple program: Hand in any car that gets less than 30 MPG and
        you can go out and buy a 50+ MPG hybrid car for FREE.  We could replace
        15 million cars a year on this program, and oil imports would soon
        drop like a rock ... This seems a lot simpler than invading country
        after country, plus domestic car manufacturers would quickly start
        cranking out competing models so it would help the car industry too.
        People want to drive big SUVs, not hybrids but I'll bet plenty of
        people would switch if you get a new car for FREE.
        \_ Ok, great, and where does the power come from for these cars?
           Hybrid cars dont make power from thin air.  It's a hybrid of a gas
           engine and a battery.  The power for the battery comes from either
           energy drained off the gas engine and thus reduces MPG and/or from
           an electric socket.  The power for that socket comes from...? Yep,
           you guessed it, burning oil, coal, or nuclear.  I won't even go
           into the abuse your program will cause when we suddenly see the
           price of broken ancient $150 gas guzzlers go up just so people can
           turn them in, nor will I mention that oil is not the source of
           Islamic terrorism.  It isn't a liberal pipe-dream.  It is just a
           \_ I don't think the point of an electric or electric-hybrid car
              is to get energy for free. It's to improve efficiency. Electric
              cars (that plug into a socket) use energy generated from a
              gas turbine power plant (or nuclear, solar, hydroelectric,etc.).
              Gas turbine engines are far more fuel efficient than piston
              engines. Hybrid cars work under the principle of using a low
              power engine (which tend to be more efficient than a high
              powered one) and using that to recharge a battery.
              \_ plus the battery allows regenerative braking, and shutting off
                 the engine quickly when idle.
           \_ Pretty much no hybrids on the market are built to recharge from
              an outside electricity source -- you are thinking or pure EVs,
              which are pretty much on hold. OP is referring to the reduction
              in required petro due to increased fuel efficiency alone and he
              is correct that the change would be dramatic. Hybrids can get
              double the mileage of standard vehicles.
              \_ Most of the milegage gain is from making the cars lighter.
                 \_ Must research before talking out of ass. Apples vs.
                    apples, hybrids are heavier.
              \_ Let's assume we replace around 20% of all cars (because not
                 everyone can or wants to trade-in).  We'd cut automotive
                 petroleum use around 10%, and total petroleum use ~5%.  We'd
                 probably replace ~30 million cars at a cost of ~$60 billion.
                 $60 billion seems a bit high for a 5% drop in oil use.
                 \_ To my mind that depends how much of a petro decrease would
                    be sufficient to no longer require massive military
                    operations every few years. The cost of the current Gulf
                    adventure is at about $105B.
                    \_ We're not there for the sweet,sweet oil.  We're there to
                       battle Islamic terrorists who were operating freely
                       under a secular Stalinist dictatorship.
                       \_ Whoah. Somebody believes this?
                          \_ It's probably just sarcasm, but yes, some
                             people actually believe this.
                    \_ The 105 includes Afghanistan but anyway....
                       \_ No. Total appropriations in the two wars so far
                          have been about $150b.
                          \_ Oh, I thought you meant the current war plus
                             afghanistan, not gw1+gw2 and not afghanistan.
                             The numbers are similar.
                       \_ The 105B is for Iraq alone, but anyway...
                          \_ It's always fun to play with numbers.  You do
                             understand that a lot of that money would have
                             been spent on people, weapon's maintenance and
                             training anyway, right?  Probably not, but it's
                             cool to think you know what you're talking about.
                             Gives you that "I'm smarter than you" feeling of
                             superiority even if it's false.
        \_ I like that idea, but I think there is a better way to spend the
           money.  How about instead of buying efficient cars for everyone, we
           give everyone a lobotomy so they won't _like_ gas-guzzlers (and
           while we are at it, we can make sure they won't discriminate based
           on race, or want a handgun in their home).  In fact, we might as
           well make sure they will all agree abortions are ok.  Sure, it will
           be expensive, and there is a slight loss of free will, but think of
           how much better off our society will be! -- ilyas
           \_ that was an awesome ilyas style rant.  it's quite easy
              to poke fun at people truly concerned with how global
              energy resources are being rapidly depleted without offering
              anything remotely like a viable solution by somehow linking
              this all to gun ownership, abortion, and paranoid extreme
              libertarian sexual fantasies.
              \_ (a) The op was a troll, not a concerned citizen.  Buying
                     everyone a hybrid is a stupid idea for practical reasons
                     (as others pointed out), as well as moral reasons.
                 (b) I do have an alternative.  Do nothing (at the government
                     level).  Let's check back in 20 years to see who is right.
                     If I am wrong, I ll eat my words, like Mr. O'Reilly did.
                     Will you?  You didn't even sign your name. -- ilyas
           \_ [ non-sequitur deleted ]
              \_ Did that deletion make you feel better, though?
                 \_ The non-sequitur wasn't really insulting, but it was
                    random.  Patriot Act?  wtf?
                     \_ Ah. So ilyas jumps from hybrids to lobotomies to
                        abortion, but my extending his statement about "loss
                        of free will" to the most recent source of govt
                        infringement of civil liberties is a non sequitur.
                        Just making sure I follow.
                        \_ You are barking up the wrong tree.  I don't like
                           the Patriot Act.  I also don't like grand schemes
                           for 'societal betterment' at taxpayer expense, which
                           was the point I was trying to make in that clumsy
                           way of mine.  Also, I was under the impression the
                           main danger of the Patriot Act was the increase
                           in spying powers of the government, rather than
                           explicit prohibitions.  The only possible relevance
                           explicit prohibitions. -- ilyas
                           of PA to op's post is that it is "a bad thing the
                           conservatives did" rather than "a bad thing a
                           liberal is proposing we do."  You can always make
                           another thread to laugh at conservative stupidity,
                           there is plenty to go around. -- ilyas
                           \_ Invading Iraq is a pretty grand scheme and it
                              has cost a fortune.  So far the big results are:
                              Saddam Hussein in jail so he can no longer
           \_ Your reaction is very interesting, ilyas, especially all the
              extensions you make. Did somebody maybe press a button?
              which use Li, not Pb.
                              threaten us with non-existant WMD, Iraq going
                              from oil exporter to oil importer, everyone in
                              the world even MORE pissed off at us, and 500+
                              soldiers dead.  My point was, if we are going
                              to spend billions and billions of dollars, why
                              not just spend directly on stuff that we know
                              will actually make a difference as opposed to
                              stuff that might fix problems.
                              \_ I thought I was the only conservative
                                 isolationist on the motd.  Did you vote for
                                 Pat, too?
        \_ Hybrids are a ruse.  They make people feel better about wasting
           resources--it's like residential recycling programs, which make
           practically no impact on resource usage.  If we really wanted
           50 MPG cars, we could do that with or without making them hybrid,
           and hybrids have additional toxic waste problems.  -tom
           \_ By toxic waste, surely you're not refering to the batteries,
              which use Li, not Pb.
           \_ Yes, some smaller cars are already close to 50mpg but it would
              mean making them even smaller and lighter which seems unsafe.
              \_ bigger, heavier cars are more dangerous than smaller, lighter
                 \_ no.
                    \_ do you not understand the concept of kinetic energy?
2004/3/3-5 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:12497 Activity:nil
3/3     Is there an alternative to AAA for roadside assistance coverage that
        doesn't lobby the state to build more freeways?  I want the towing,
        I don't like AAA's political agenda.  Thanks.
        \_ 21st Century includes towing with their insurance.  Others might.
           \_ I have towing with Amica but the service sucks hard compared to
              AAA. Waits typically three times as long and sulry second rate
              service from whoever eventually shows up. -- ulysses
        \_ I have never heard of this, do they want more highway
           maintenance, or more freeways?  Where can you build more freeways
           in california?  are you talking about private toll roads?
           \_ My aunt works for them, and she's mentioned some stuff like this.
              It's not terrible stuff they do, they're not Enron-- more like
              AARP, selling out but trying to maintain a good rep.
              \_ How does the roadside (car) asssistance plan compare to AAA
                 in terms of service quality?
        \_ The RAC but you have to wear a coat and tie to get into the
           clubhouse.  -John
        \_ Most car dealerships offer roadside assistance programs with their
           cars.  Also, many insurance companies offer it with their coverage.
           \_ 9 out of 10 times it's subcontracted through AAA
           Endorsed by Car Talk.
        \_ I thought AAA is better than other insurance provider because it's
           \_ Actually, I've heard from a couple of folks that AAA insurance
              sucked, especially given how expensive it is. Low quality service
              following an actual accident was the complaint in both cases.
              BTW, Amica being a "mutual insurance company" is also not-for-
           \_ the part of AAA doing roadside assistance  is different than the
              insurance part.
2003/12/19-20 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Reference/Tax] UID:11518 Activity:moderate
12/18   Most of people in California don't like the car tax. Just curious,
        do you guys support the repeal of that car tax at our current
        financial crisis?
        \_ One thing that was conveniently forgotten: 3 years ago, the car
           "tax" was reduced by 66% because we were flush with revenue from
           other sources.  Restoring those pre-boom levels can hardly be
           called a tax increase...  But it was a very effective marketing
           term.  As was the heretofore nonexistent term "Car tax." --scotsman
           \_ That's right.  I used to be paying $400, but now i am paying
              $250 for a car that is twice as much as my old car.
        \_ I guess I'm not most people. I think a tax based on the value of
           one's car makes a lot of sense. -- ulysses
           \_ You must really hate America.
           \_ I bet you'd love socialism, too. -- anonymous coward
           \_ We should base criminal penalties on the value of your car, too.
           \_ I bet you'd love socialism, too.
        \_ Hmm, we're spending way more than we're making....  Oh well, maybe
           it'll get better on its own....  Oops, it didn't.  I don't want to
           spend less, though....  I heard CA has one of the highest car tax
           rates in the country _even_before_ the tripling.
           \_ you heard wrong.
        \_ I would prefer not being taxed over being taxed, but I don't
           think it makes sense to get rid of a tax before figuring out
           where the money will come from or before getting rid of the
           items being funded by the tax.
        \_ Our current financial 'crisis' is due to over spending not lack of
           taxation.  After the state level morons cut a few billion in pork
           everything will be fine.
           \_ may be we can resolve the financial crisis at federal level
              by stop issuing bonds.  after the federal level morons cut
              a few hundred billion in pork, everything will be fine?
              \_ There isn't a financial crisis at the federal level but
                 yes there's a few hundred billion in pork that should be
                 cut and taxes lowered by the same amount.
                 \_ there isn't ??? hello the federal financial crisis is way
                    worse!  The fed govt' is already in amode of borrowing to
                    pay for the interest on its debt.  Can you say federal
                    debts over 10,000 per capita?   The only difference here is
                    there is already an established pattern of borrowing at
                    the federal level, while there is none such for the state
                    \_ No, the biggest difference is that the Fed can just
                       decide to mint money and inflate their way out of
                       any debt problem. The State cannot.
        \_ This is all really very easy.  Davis increased the # of
           gov't employees by 30% during his reign.  Fire them and cut the
           budget 10% across the board.
           \_ urlP
           \_ why didn't Arnold doing so?
              \_ probably the same reason your grammar sucks. laziness, or
                 perhaps sheer stupidity.
                 \_ if you are so smart, then, tell me why Arnie is not
                    firing state employees.
                    \_ what does knowing what goes on in arnold's head have
                       to do with being smart?
                    \_That's easy, fire people = less votes
           \_ How many of those 30% were school teachers, mandated by the
              voters? Not a rhetorical question, seriously interested in
              the answer.
              \_ I don't have the answer, but this is the general problem.
                 Voters have such little trust for the state legislature, that
                 we've passed measure after measure to control their spending.
                 As a result, decreasing the budget without breaking a law is
                 hard.  Other than school teachers, there are also the huge
                 pensions given to prison workers, which can't be taken away,
                 etc. -emarkp
        \_ Americans don't pay for the full social cost of driving anyway, and
           the car tax still doesn't come close to what Europeans and others
           pay in terms of gas prices, etc. The tax should be more of a user
           fee rather than money for local jurisdictions.
           \_ Europe is a lousy god forsaken place full of socialists and
              communists who never want to do an honest days work.  Using Europe
              as a benchmark is stupid and foolish.
              \_ I love how you there's basically no difference between trolls
                 and people being serious on the motd.
                 \_ What'd he say that isn't true?
           \_ Actually I think you have it backwards.  It is the US that pays
              a disproportionate amount of costs for a stable supply of oil
              in the Middle East.  It is the US military that provides
              security in the area (eg. Fifth Fleet).  Much like
              pharmaceuticals and host of the other products Europe is a
              parasite on the US - we subsidize their lazy social welfare
                 \_ Europe is a lousy god forsaken place full of socialists
                    and communists who never want to do an honest days work.
                    Using Europe as a benchmark is stupid and foolish.
                 and people being serious on the motd.
        \_ car tax on my 10-year old honda was tiny anyway ($65 for the total
           DMV registration for the year) - triple that puppy!  Punish the
           SUV buyers!
           \_ why single out the SUV owners?  Heck, why single out car owners
              when the real social cost is on the USE of cars.  A gas tax
              would be ideal here, and be far less noticeable than a several
              hundred dollar a year hit in registration fees.  Plus it will
              disproportionately hit the heavy gas users like SUV owners.
              \_ I prefer gas tax over car tax too.  The more you drive, the
                 more of the purden you pick up to maintain the roads.  Plus
                 that'll encourage people to carpool and take public transit.
                 BTW I drive an SUV.
              \_ Is it accurate to say that most expensive cars (= high car
                 tax) also have lower gas mileage?  E.g. sports cars, large
                 trucks, ...?  Still indirect, admittedly, but doesn't it
                 have roughly the same effect? (not the case with old vs
                 new cars, though)
        \_ car tax on my 10-year old honda was tiny anyway ($65 for the total
           DMV registration for the year) - triple that puppy!  Punish the
           SUV buyers!
              would be ideal here, and be far less noticeable than a several
              hundred dollar a year hit in registration fees.  Plus it will
              disproportionately hit the heavy gas users like SUV owners.
              \_ I prefer gas tax over car tax too.  The more you drive, the
                 more of the purden you pick up to maintain the roads.  Plus
                 that'll encourage people to carpool and take public transit.
                 BTW I drive an SUV.
                 tax) also have lower gas mileage?  E.g. sports cars, large
                 trucks, ...?  Still indirect, admittedly, but doesn't it
                 have roughly the same effect? (not the case with old vs
                 new cars, though)
                 \_ More expensive cars tend to have much worse gas mileage
                    because the vehicles are heavier, have more power, bigger
                    engines, more toys, etc.  Anyway, as someone with an
                    expensive car I only drive a short way to/from BART every
                    day I don't see why I should have to pay a huge tax on it.
        \_ It's always been high. What the tax paid for was covered by state
           taxes when they had enough in the kitty. With the econ down and the
           state can't cover, the taxes returned to their former high level. In
           the spending spree and 0% financing frenzy of the last two years,
           people have been buying lots of new cars (enough to float the US
           economy past a recession) for big bucks thus high vehicle taxes.
           It's the same sort of whining gas prices get "too high" and people
           who bought low MPG cars start crying or when people buy property
           and whine about high taxes. You're fucking rich enough to buy it
           stop whining about the relatively small taxes associated.
2003/12/12 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:29711 Activity:high
12/12   SUVs Kill:
        \_ But the occupants are less likely to die in an SUV than in a car
           when the vehicle is hit by another vehicle or is sandwiched.
        \_ SUV's kill OTHERs.  they're plenty safe for the SUV owner/driver.
           \_ Reuben Bolling did a comic recently called "SUV Arms Race"
           \_ Not entirely true: (
2003/11/25 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:11216 Activity:nil
11/24   What's the diff b/w 4WD and AWD?
        \_ usually if they say 4WD the vehicle is normally in 2WD with the
           ability to switch to 4WD.. but on normal city streets will not
           handle well in 4WD (often because it locks 1/both/all
           differentials). AWD usually implies it will automatically shift
           power to or away from wheels w/o any intervention. There are of
           course variations on these rules.. such as the mercedes 4matic
           \_ Yes, 4WD with locking differential(s) handles even worse than 2WD
              on paved roads unless you're always going straight.  It's not
              intended to be used on-road.  The only time the 4WD on my
              Cherokee saved my ass on city street was one time when I
              unknowingly landed one rear wheel on a cable car track on an
              uphill slope while waiting to make a left turn on a rainy day.
              As the opposite traffic cleared, I stepped on the gas but my
              truck didn't move an inch.  Realizing that I was going to be hit
              by the oncoming cable car going downhill fast in the opposite
              direction, I paniced, pulled the 4WD lever, floored the gas pedal
              and pulled myself out of the intersection.
           \_ great link, thanks!  So I'm curious, how much of a mpg
              penalty is there for the awd differential?
              \_ Usually 2-4 MPG highway.  Don't remember about city.  Just
                 check out this year's specs for various vehicle models with
                 both AWD and 2WD.  E.g. Toyota Sienna (van), Lexus RX300
                 (SUV), Toyota Matrix (car).
              \_ negligable on some, e.g. audi.  definitely less than
                 other factors like tire width, tire pressure, mass of
                 lead foot.
2003/10/16-17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:10661 Activity:high
10/16   Is there a reason why Tiger Woods who is in his 20s is in a Buick
        commercial, a car company that usually appeals to people who are
        ummmmm, significantly older than 20s?
        \_ $$$ ?
        \_ Golf appeals to older people?
        \_ It's not your Father's Buick anymore?
           \_ That it's your father's car is exactly the reason they want to
              have someone like Tiger Woods in Buick commercials.
           \_ Agreed, ever since Buick started making SUVs.  Same for Cadellac,
              Oldsmobile and Mercedes.
2003/10/14 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:10623 Activity:nil
10/13   So various no skilled and low skilled workers are striking across
        the US right now.  Should they be replaced by illegal immigrants?
        Is this not a case of Americans being unwilling to do menial work
        that immigrants would gladly do?
        \_ sounds like a normal negotiation process. And who said that
           Americans are unwilling to do menial type of work? Everything
           has its price.
        \_ Or is it the case of trying to maintain the standard of living
           so we don't have to live like they do in the 3rd world?
           \_ But they're mostly doing unskilled or very low skilled labor so
              wouldn't it be better to have undocumented immigrants do this
              labor for less since Americans aren't willing to work at the
              lower rates the new immigrants are willing to work for?  Isn't
              that the same reasoning for having undocumented workers in the
              fields picking produce instead of higher waged Americans?
           \_ You know, not every job has to, or can, provide health insurance
              and high pay. People accepting positions like these ones need to
              realize that upon accepting them.
              \_ Every job should provide health insurance. Maybe not 100% paid
                 for, but the employer should contribute. That might mean less
                 pay, though. As for high pay, do you think these people are
                 highly paid? Maybe $17/hour is a little much for a checker,
                 but: 1) What is the right amount? 2) The grocery stores agreed
                 to it. --dim
                 \_ "They agreed to do it." Ya, the alternative is to let
                    people strike. Then you look bad and the federal govt might
                    slap your wwrist.
                    \_ actually they didn't agree to it, that's why the
                       clerks are striking.
                       \_ Actually, they did. That's why the clerks make what
                          they make. Now they want to put the genie back in
                          the bottle. They have that right, but the reason
                          clerks are overpaid is that they agreed to do it.
                          \_ The pay, not the healthcare costs.
                 \_ Um, no.  Health insurance as we know it needs to be
                    completely dismantled.  My car insurance doesn't pay for my
                    oil changes--why should my health insurance pay for doctor
                    \_ It's not the doctor visits bankrupting the system. They
                       are cheap, and cheaper still when you consider that an
                       ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
                    \_ The two are not comparable, in my view. Car insurance
                       pays if you break someone else's car, not if your car
                       needs a valve job. -chialea
                       \_ That's what he just said, isn't it?
                          \_ And thus any comparison between the two is not
                             on, get it?  My driver's license doesn't allow
                             me to take cars, so why should my fishing license
                             allow me to take fish?
                             \_ Uh, I think we're in agreement but you lost me
                                when you started talking about fish.
                                \_ Just this: comparing car insurance with
                                   health insurance makes as much sense as
                                   comparing driver's licenses with fishing
                    \_ health >> driving around in your SUV.
                       \_ whats up with the class warfare?  he could be driving
                          a bug from the 60s for all you know.
2003/7/9 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:28984 Activity:high
7/9     Yet another reason to ban SUVs:
        \_ are you an idiot, a troll, or joking?
        \_ Actually it's a better argument for forced sterilization.
           \_ as opposed to de facto sterilization among geekdom?
        \_ ever hear of air-conditioning?
2003/6/17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:28742 Activity:high
6/16    Business Owner Chases, Runs Over Robbery Suspects In Hummer
        \_ that was the busineess owner.  what sucks is when you're just
           an employee with a shitty car and the manager busts your balls
           for not engaging a shoplifter in a high speed chase. this actually
           happened to my brother in law.  apparently someone else in the
           company ran over a shoplifter in the parking lot with his car and
           management felt this was a good idea.
        \_ Now that is a good use of the Free Republic website. -motd liberal
        \_ If everyone in the store was armed the criminals wouldn't have
           tried this shit in the first place.  Now these lowlifes are going
           to press criminal *and* civil charges and the owner will be in jail
           and owe each criminal a zillion dollars.
           \_ Until they hit their first civie accidentally, or the robbers
              come in with their own guns. Then the price goes up and the
              zillions of bucks start flowing.
              \_ When everyone is armed there are no civilians.  That's the
                 point.  And in this case if you had bothered to read the link
                 instead of knee jerking, they were armed.
2003/4/30 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:28279 Activity:kinda low
4/29    Say I'm sueing someone and I'd like to track down where this person
        lives. How much do private investigators cost? BTW this is the guy
        who hit my car and gave me a fake address and insurance information.
        \- what do you know accuratly? name? lic plate? seems like the police
           should help you out. while it probably isnt a high priority,
           they might be helpful since it is so simple. i would think your
           insurance company could get it from dmv or police or other means.
        \_ Why are you the one doing the suing?  Turn over all the info you
           have to your insurance company and let them deal with it.  They're
           going to want to find him and make his insurance company pay so
           they don't have to.
           \_ Probably below the insurance deductible and the $750 damage
              minimum to report. Sucks to be you.
              \_ My door got dinged by an SUV going 10 mph.  $2200.  Something
                 under $750 is a paint scratch.  A small paint scratch.
                 \_ May not be a new car.
2003/4/17-18 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:28149 Activity:kinda low
4/17    Super rice rockets -
        \_ I think it's most philipino guys doing this right?  Are east
           asians modding their car?
           \_ That's "Filipino" or "Pilipino". -- Pinoy pride
           \_ Filipino
              \_ pronounced pilipino
2003/2/17-18 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:27438 Activity:very high
2/17    Still want to know what is up with all the SUV drivers on their way
        to SF with "no blood for oil signs" who don't know how to use BART.
        \_ Uhm, maybe they're people that are willing to deal with the
           consequences of their politics and pay the higher cost of
           gasoline & etc?
        \_ Maybe they don't drive very often.  What's the difference between
           an SUV driver who bikes to work and only drives on the weekends
              their cars on my way home with signs and all.
           and a hybrid owner who does 40+ miles each way every day?
           \_ Given who I was looking at, I strongly doubt they owned bikes.
              Also, the BART parking lot was full and I saw folks getting into
              their cars on my way home with signs and all.  And I said they
              "don't know how to use BART".  At all.  They bike to the city?
              Or maybe it was their first time there, ever?  Yeah.  Sure.
              \_ I know cyclists who own SUVs.
                 \_ And?
                    \_ And they can bike to the city.
                       \_ From the East bay?
                          \_ Bay Bridge Bicycle Commuter Shuttle
              \_ Maybe they work in the South Bay where there's no BART and
                 they commute on Light Rail?
                 \_ Getting really desperate huh?  See below about the moon,
                    cheese, and clouds with silver linings.
                 \_ And they only travel for work and live in the bay area and
                    never go to SF and never go anywhere BART might go.  Right.
                    \_ So are you saying you know by heart how to ride the
                       Light Rail and the Caltrain and the Amtrak, because you
                       living in the Bay Area must imply that you must have at
                       least once been to one of the places that each of these
                       transit systems serve, right?  BTW, even for people
                       working in SF, AC Transit and Alameda/Oakland Ferry run
                       many transbay routes during commute hours, which you
                       absolutely already know how to ride too, right?
                       \_ Really, it's a nice effort, but no points on this
                          one.  You're just flailing and thrashing now.
                          \_ Whatever you say.  BART is not the only public
                             transit option in the Bay Area.
                             \_ I say you continue to blatantly ignore what
                                I've said when it doesn't fit your world view
                                and make up random "maybes" that have nothing
                                to do with anything in a bizarre attempt to
                                justify something to yourself.
        \_ My so-called "gas guzzler" SUV does 25MPG freeway and I take the
           extra time and effort to park-and-ride to work, while a friend's
           Mercedes mid-size *sedan* does 19MPG freeway and he drives to work.
           Yet nobody picks on such sedan drivers.
           \_ What do you expect from those replete with cognitive dissonance.
              \_ I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.
           \_ 25mpg?  What year/model?  This'll be good.
              \_ '96 Jeep Cherokee 5-sp manual, and I don't speed cuz speeding
                 wastes a lot of gas.
                 \_ That's not an SUV.  Yermom would be proud of you though.
        \_ this whole thing is a pathetic strawman.  -tom
           \_ Is not!  (like how I backed my point as well as you did yours?)
                \_ the point of a strawman argument is to get people to
                   argue about irrelevancies, which is why I won't.  -tom
2003/1/16 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:27114 Activity:nil
2003/1/13 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:27078 Activity:insanely high
1/13    Penis size and SUV survey (please add more):
        Ford Explorer:   5 screams from your lil sis
        Ford Expedition: 4 screams from your lil sis
        Hummer H2:       3 screams from your lil sis
        \_ Rich kid!
        Civic:           8 screams from your lil sis
        \_ Civic is not an SUV.
        obRideBike:      Your little sis screams so loud that
                         yermom cringes since her turn is next
        Jeep Cherokee:   4.5 screams from your lil sis.
        \_ But me driving an SUV has nothing to do
           with my small penis size.  I got my first Cherokee in
           1992, years before the term "SUV" was even invented.
           \_ Exactly. A jeep cherokee (not the liberty, the cherokee)
              is a 4x4. it is no SUV, unlike anything else in this
              list, including the H2.
              \_ What's the difference?
                 \_ An SUV is a recent marketing gimmick. They
                    simply take any car, make it big, give it
                    a jeep-like body, and then think it's able
                    fulfill all your everyday driving needs
                    AND be able to go off-roading (or at the very
                    least drive off highway). In reality, all
                    they can do is haul large amounts of
                    groceries or kids. Which is perfect, given
                    that soccer moms seem to love SUV's. An
                    off-roader or a 4x4 can actually go offroad,
                    not break, and come out ok.
                    \_ rude people who stuck their comments in the
                       middle of the above: PURGED!  --!above
                    \_ The modern SUV serves the same function
                       as the "Station Wagon" of the 1970's
                       and the "Mini Van" of the 1980's
                        \_ nice definition...well done.
                           \_ Yeah this was hard to figure out.
                        \_ BS.  The minivan exists and is better for
                           most uses than SUV: you can get 4x4 if you
                           need it (snow, etc.).  They have more
                           headroom, get better milage, and driver
                           better than a typical SUV.
        \_ Hummer H1:   0.5 screams from your lil sis
        \_ what's the proper length measurement technique?
           \_ we'll stick it in your little sister, and she'll make an
              accurate report.
              \_ she got all streched out at this point, anyone have
                 a fresh lil sis?
                 \_ obUseHerButthole
                 \_ How much lubricant does your little sister need?
              \_ Whoa. Stop right there. Yermom the official insult of the
                 CSUA motd. yerlilsis hasn't even been broken in properly.
                 Besides, everyone's had yermom, yerlilsis is way behind.
        \_ This is the dumbest thread the motd has seen in ages.
2002/10/4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:26104 Activity:nil 60%like:26107
10/4    Quality protest in action:
2002/9/30-10/1 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:26054 Activity:very high
9/30    Eight-wheel drive electric vehicle with top speed 192MPH, faster than
        a Porsche!  186 miles range.  From the picture it looks like it seats
        at least six, maybe more.  And the development cost is only $2.4M
        which seems pretty low to me.
        \_ funny how the idiot American reporters can't convert meters to
           feet.  -tom
           \_ you're right. looks like the conversation ratio was
              about 2.2. he probably was confusing the m-ft ratio
              with that for kg-lbs.
           \_ What for?  This isn't Europe.  Do you really tell people,
              "A bit to the left, about 2.2 meters, thanks!"?  I didn't
              think so.
                \_ Actually, I do use metric measures whenever possible.
                   See my bicycle pages.  And whether or not you use them,
                   if you are a reporter writing a story for international
                   publication, and you insist on converting meters into
                   feet, you'd think you'd want to get the conversion factor
                   right.  Especially when that thing is obviously way more
                   than 14 feet long.  -tom
                   \_ Why would you use metric units when communicating with
                      people unfamiliar with them? That's just dumb.
                      \_ The cycling world uses metric all of the time, even
                         in the US.  Allen keys, cranks, road bike frames,
                         and road bike tires are all measured in cm or mm.
                         If you pay for one of those organized rides in
                         California held by local cycling clubs you get to
                         pick distances of 50km, 100km or 100 miles.
                         \_ 19.5" frames, century rides, MS150, 27" wheels.
                            Bikes are as metric as cars.  Mixed units.
                         \_ well he said "whenever possible".
        \_ Some amazing features:
           590hp!!  6-wheel steering, 8 seats, ability to keep moving with some
           of the eight wheels broken.  Weights 6556lbs, so that gives only
           11.1 lb/hp which is very low.
        \_ Yeah but it looks ridiculously expensive to produce. Not much ground
           clearance either.
           \_ Don't worry, you'll see lowered ones soon with xenon lamps,
              a 5" exhaust tip ("but it's an electric motor!"), nose, tail,
              and midship spoilers.
              \_ Dude!  I've already got dual midship soilers on order for
                 mine!  It's hella!
           \_ I think the low ground clearance is by design.  "As the height of
              the integrated chassis is 15cm, the lower height of KAZ is almost
              the same as a conventional sedan and much lower than a
              conventional MPV, thus making access much easier."  The slides
              also sell stable cornering and high stability due to low CG.
              Why do you want high ground clearance anyway?  It's not an SUV.
              \_ The thing is 22 feet long. That's longer than our long-bed
                 pickup. I think that thing will have problems hitting slopes
                 and driveways. I guess it's fine if you live on a racetrack.
                 Hmm, well I suppose the extra set of wheels could compensate,
                 if some conditions make 2 wheels go in the air, but then
                 you have potholes and things too.
                 \_ Ah, good point!  I was only thinking about cornering.  Hmm,
                    maybe that's the reason why the second front axle is so
                    far behind the first one.  Maybe when it goes from level
                    ground to a downward slope, the first front axle are lifted
                    in the air for a short moment while the second axle (and
                    the rear axle) continues to steer.  I have no idea.
        \_ hydrolicsP
2002/3/6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:24035 Activity:nil
3/5     SUV kills.
        \_ SUV's in general kill, or a specific SUV killed someone?
           if it's case 2 - sorry to hear that. if it's case 1 - it's
        \_ How many?  Did you rack up a good body count a la Death Race 2000?
2002/2/16 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Computer/HW/Display] UID:23883 Activity:very high
2/15    For the Soda Gal:
        There's an eMachinese Computer with 1.6 GHz Pentium4, 17" Moniter and
        printer free 1 year msn Internet Access for $679.97 after rebates.
        There's no contract on anything.  Check it out at BestBuy.
        \_ Get the Dell 4300S, $499 and free shipping (under Small Business).
        \_ Why are you giving her such bad advice. You might as well tell
           her to buy a Geo, Hyundai, or Kia.
        \_ what would you suggest for that price?
           \_ You get what you pay for. Spend your money (even if it means
              spending more) on something you'll be happy with. I always
              tell people of the BMW/SUV analogy. If I gave you $50K to
              spend on either a BMW 3-series or a Ford Explorer, most
              good old Americans would evaluate the bang-per-buck and buy
              the SUV with money to spare. But the BMW owner would usually
              be much happier. I would say stop trying to do a bang-per-buck
              analysis (GHz/dollar, MBytes/dollar, etc...) and find something
              you'll enjoy. Go to an Apple store and at least try it out.
              You might be happier with a Mac than an e-machine. I know my
              dad was. After I gave him an "ancient" G4 tower, he now regrets
              spending a dime on his top-of-the-line e-machine. He loves the
              Mac I gave him, something he never said about a PC.
              \_ Don't settle for BMW/SUV.  Buy a BMW SUV instead. :-)
                 \_ BMW doesn't make an SUV, they only make SAV's
              \_ You can't just tell someone "get a mac".  It matters what
                 software they're running.  There's a ton of stuff that doesn't
                 "run on a mac".  Also it matters what she knows about the two
                 OS's and if she doesn't know enough then it matters what her
                 friends know for freebie tech support.  "Get a mac" indeed.
                 \_ I'm not saying "Get a mac". I'm just saying that most
                    people come to the decision without even trying one to
                    begin with. I never thought of getting one myself. But
                    once I did, I found how much better it was. For me, it
                    didn't matter that nobody else was using it. So what.
                    I can figure things out myself. I'm sure soda gal is
                    smart enough to do so too.
                    \_ maybe soda gal doesn't want to nerd around and just
                       wants her computer to work?
                    \_If you actually know how to figure things out for yourself
                    why didn't you just buy top-of-the-line components and
                    built the computer yourself? -williamc
                    \_ I've done that too. I've put together my own machines
                       from spare parts or -top-of-the-line components
                       and slap Linux or FreeBSD on there. But I wanted
                       a laptop that will work nice with portable MP3
                       players, PDA's, digital cameras, etc... The iBook
                       matched my needs pretty well. A working word
                       processor was also nice.
        \_Datapoint: 1800+ athlon xp, ecs k7s5a MB, 512 DDR ram, cdrw,dvd
          60GB ata100, ati radeon ve, netcard, modem was $800+45 shipping on
          Ubid.(no tax) Not top quality components and cheesy case though.
          \_ That's not particularly cheap for a system w/o a monitor. --dim
        \_ You can build your own system pretty cheaply these days by using
        an nForce motherboard (built in Geforce2 + sound). -eric
        \_ Don't give any more money to Microsfot please.
           \_ Explain? I thought nForce was made by nVidia?
                \_ the microsoft comment was indented incorrectly and should
                   be purged.
2002/1/31-2/1 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:23741 Activity:very high
1/31    where can I get a rear view mirror for my monitor?
        \_ Perhaps any number of car parts stores that sell such things
        for cars?  (e.g., Kragen, Pep Boys, etc.)
           \_ Something monitor sized and not a 4" x 6" monster suitable for
              an SUV.  I don't want a car rear view mirror.  I want a monitor
              rear view mirror.  I've seen them at previous companies.
              \_ the little round 2" diameter fisheye mirrors
               people used to put on the sideview mirrors of their van
               conversions back in a time known as "The 80s".
        \_ you can probably get one of those rear view mirror for bicyles.
        \_ go to a trade show.
        \_ stfw
        \_ I used to have one, and now I have a web cam set up so I can
           monitor everything happens in my back.  I can also turn the
           angle and have it point at my boss's office to monitor him.
           Much more useful than a mirror.
        \_ it's much more satisfying to arrange your desk to face the
           office door...
        \_ computer stores. Or go to a Sun Microsystems store, like at
           their Agnews Santa Clara office.
           their Agnews Santa Clara office. But they may not let you in.
2002/1/1-2 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:23424 Activity:moderate
        \_ Why do I care about this site?
           \_ One of the main editors is Al Qaeda.  Think of it as an
              alternative media outlet.  :-)
2001/12/8-9 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:23186 Activity:insanely high
12/7    Polling sodans on dotbomb failures.  Which dotbomb have are you
        working for?
        \_ /csua/pub/jobs/*
        \_ <DEAD><DEAD>
        \_ <DEAD><DEAD>
        \_ (still looking for a job and yes I am a big luzer)
        \_ (not fully bombed yet)
           \_ maybe you mean, which was not a failure. Sold
              to RHAT for $42M. (14x sales, 420x ROI)
                          \_ in stocks.
        \_ ArsDigita... arguably not a dotcom, but now is failing like one.
        \_ (CriticalPath)
        \_ is still around, still has money, and had 5
           sodans at one point, including 3 former presidents, and 2 former
           vice presidents.
        \_, still limping along, left there a long time ago
        \_, just got bought by CapitalOne for $173 mil.
        \_ ..
                \_ Not really a .com, but dotbombed with the best of them.
                   \_ whats left of taos these days anyway?  do they have
                     *any* contract work?
                        \_ We have a stack of their 4x5 post-it notes at
                           work.  We like their post-its.
2001/12/7-8 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:23177 Activity:very high
12/7    Polling sodans on dotbomb failures.  Which dotbomb have you worked
        for?  I remember some people bitching about a while
        back.  Also  Which other loser companies have sodans
        touched and destroyed?
        \_ feeling a little bitter there, troll-boy?
           \_ dude, relax. how is this a troll?
                \_ I worked thirdvoice.  I never bitched about it.  I sure
                   as hell didn't destroy it.  It's a troll.  -ex-3V
                   \_ "sarcasm" and "hyperbole." Try looking those up.
                        \_ Uh oh.  Found a real person who was there so you
                           back off.  Ok.  No problem.  Apology accepted.
                           \_ Uhh no. Try "sarcasm" and "hyperbole" in
                              regards to the orginal post, hyper-sensitive
                              \_ I can read.  I know what it says.  It's a
                                 troll.  If it wasn't they would've stopped
                                 after the first line.  Call it whatever you'd
                                 like and repaint it anyway you'd like.
        \_ <DEAD><DEAD>
        \_ (still looking for a job and yes I am a big luzer)
        \_ Just because someone worked at a place doesn't mean they destroyed
           it.  Take the troll elsewhere.
        \_ (not fully bombed yet)
           \_ maybe you mean, which was not a failure. Sold
              to RHAT for $42M. (14x sales, 420x ROI)
        \_ ArsDigita... arguably not a dotcom, but now is failing like one.
        \_ (CriticalPath)
        \_ is still around, still has money, and had 5
           sodans at one point, including 3 former presidents, and 2 former
           vice presidents.
        \_, still limping along, left there a long time ago
        \_, just got bought by CapitalOne for $173 mil.
2001/12/7-9 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:23176 Activity:nil
12/7    Since when did the Hummer start to be made by GM instead of
        AM General!?
        \_ Most of my hummers are courtesy of yer mom.
           (That was my first ever motd yer mom joke.  Comments welcome.)
        \_ GM owns AM General.
2001/8/27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:22271 Activity:very high
8/27    On Thursday evening, August 23rd at approximately 11:50 pm four
        students were robbed at gunpoint.
          The four students were walking northbound on the Piedmont Ave.
        sidewalk when they were confronted by two (2) male suspects.
        Suspect #1 pulled a handgun from his waistband and pointed it at
        the four students.  The suspects robbed the students of their
        personal belongings and fled southbound on Piedmont Avenue to the
        2700 block of Bancroft Way.  The suspects got into a Sport
        Utility Vehicle and drove westbound on Bancroft Way.
        \_ What is wrong with the news today??  What I REALLY want to know
           is what race the hoodlums were.
           \_ it goes without saying that they were black.
              \_ Only whites and spoiled Asians drive SUV's.
                 \_ The robbers were black.
                 \_ what? SUV's are the generic station wagon of these times.
                    that they're being singled out to scream "Racism!".
                    EVERYONE has one.
                       \_ OJ will tell you the same, thus it couldn't possibly
                          be him driving that Bronco.
                    \_ Ask OJ.  No, not that oj.
                       \_ OJ will tell you that only whites and spoiled Asians
                          drive SUV's, thus it couldn't possibly be him driving
                          that Bronco.
                          \_ especially not a WHITE one. i mean really.
              \_ usually it's <ethnic> if they don't specifically say.  the
                 report would say white if the robbers were white.
                 \_ Yup, only white people can't make use of every opportunity
                    to scream "Racism!" whenever they're being singled out.
                    -- Asian
2001/5/17 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:21300 Activity:nil
5/15    Dick rides in SUV to press conference to tell everyone about his new
        energy plan:
        Conservation, indeed.
        \_ For those too lazy to read, this is Dick Gephart, "Ecofriendly"
           DEMOCRAT, not Dick Cheney.
           \_ Doesn't matter.  They're both idiots.
           \_ Of course the article said nothing about how many people
              were in said SUV.
              \_ Probably four to six: driver, one or two aides and one
                 to three secret service. The SUV was probably also a
                 "hardened" version with light armored skin, bullet proof
                 glass, run flat tires and armored under carriage. All
                 in all less than 10 MPG. I'm not saying its a bad thing
                 that he drives in such a vehicle, its just a little
                 hypocritical that he thinks that I shouldn't be he should.
                 Its not like he's any more of a citizen than I am.
                 \_ He's a commie and thinks he's a member of the politburo.
                 \_ The article says the SUV is a Chevy Suburban police car.
        \_ My 5yr old 6-cylinder 4-litre "SUV" does better gas mileage than my
           \_ You think that's what Dick rode in?  Your 5 y/old car?  And your
              gas mileage still sucks compared to a car built for high mileage.
              Comparing it to a luxury vehicle is a cheap strawman.
              \_ Yes, but people only blame SUVs for burning too much gas, but
                 people don't blame big sedans (and even the not-so-big ones
                 kinds should be blamed.  -- yuen
                 \_ BS. I've paid my gas-guzzler tax and my luxury tax, but
                    most SUVs are exempt from those taxes because they are
                    classified as "trucks". I've paid my unfair share already,
                    no one has a right to blame me for anything. - Luxury Car
                    \_ Oh, I'm not sure if I pay those taxes or not.  In any
                       case, I take public transit to commute.  It takes 1 hr
                       longer each way (1.5hr vs. 0.5hr), but it helps save
                       gas.  -- yuen
                        \_ If you paid the luxury tax you'd certainly remember
        \_ Anyone who owns a car with less than 20mpg has no right to complain
           about gas prices.
           \_ unless (s)he commutes with public transit.  -- yuen
           \_ Who said anything about that?  Where'd this comment come from?
2001/5/8-9 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:21214 Activity:high
5/8     Berkeley Critical Mass this Friday, downtown Berkeley BART
        gather 5:30 PM to depart after 6 PM. Sound system, water
        pistols, movies after.
        \_ And please drink and drive your SUVs.
                \_ And bring out your guns.
        \_ puleeze. more underpowered twinks who will get themselves
           killed thinking they can mix in with regular traffic
          \_ they also bitch and cry when their handle bars get stuck
             on someone's mirror. only an idiot and careless biker
             gets that close to a car.
        \_ while waiting on a red light on Market St. in SF couple of weeks
           ago, a woman  tried to squeeze between my car and the sidewalk. She
           ended up toppling over as her bike hit the sidewalk. I tried damn
           hard not to laugh, but was quite unsuccessful. Oh, and it's not
           like she couldn't have ridden her bike on the sidewalk... there were
           hardly any pedestrians and the sidewalk's 20 feet wide.
           \_ so if you ride on the sidewalk, you get a ticket.
              if you ride between cars, you die.
              if you ride your bike in traffic and take up the whole
              lane, you get harassed.
              \_ Cyclists should do what motorists do. If you see a bunch of
                 cars behind you waiting to pass you, pull over to the side
                 and let them pass. For the most part, this is convention on
                 the highways and should work for cyclists as well.
           \_ How typical, a motorist advocating that cyclists break the law.
              \_ They do anyway without any help.
                 \_ Like not stopping for pedestrians at stop signs (and even
                    red lights) while whining about car drivers not stopping
                    for them.
                    \_ Like the 4 cars that sped through red lights just
                       this morning on my walk from bart to work.
                        \_ yeah, but bicyles don't weight 2 tons, cars do..
                          all the more reason to respect their power even if
                         there are morons behind it.
                         \_ Some cyclists are fucking stupid (crossing against
                            a red light, etc), but this is hardly the
                            behavior most cyclists have.
              \_ I'm saying she should've ridden the sidewalk for her own good.
                 Fine by me if she wants to risk hurting herself. In fact, I'm
                 glad she fell on her sorry ass.  If she insists on sharing the
                 road, she could've waited like all the other motorists instead
                 of squeezing through.
                 \_ I agree, and tend to take the whole lane when I'm
                    riding on Market.  Which is really the right thing
                    to do. --dpassage
                 \_ the right answer is 1) stay the hell off the sidewalk and
                    2) obey the rules of the road (such as the CVC) when riding
                    and if you can't be bothered to do either, suck it. --jon
        \_ Bring 'em on. I just got a new grill on my Suburban and a little
           blood will help give it color!
        \_ Wow. A little bicycle advocacy seems to bring out more
           than any recent trolling. That's fine. Yer cure when
           yer angry. -ulysses
           \_ ulysses? who names their kid ulysses?
2001/2/23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:20657 Activity:high
2/22 - ph33r tina yothers.  ph33r.
        \_ who are these people? and what is wrong with the girl
           named tina? (I hope its not "She's a MAN Babee!")
           \_ you knew her as alex P keaton's younger sister on Family Ties.
              wow. heather thomas is like 50.  ph33r.
           \_ in much better shape is miriam bialik, who's in ucla grad
              \_ who is miriam bialik? - unhip sodan
                \_ starred in the sitcom "Blossom".
                   \_ "Mayam," even
                   \_ Blossom? Never heard of it. Was it on
                      cable or something. - really unhip alum
        \_ One of the guys is wearing a Cal hat in one of the pictures.
           That's better than most press Cal gets.
           \_ "Unknown TV Sitcom Actor Wears Cal Hat!"  Yeah thats the sort of
              press you should be dying for.
              \_ She's not wearing the hat. It's someone in her band that
                 is barely visible. So it should be "Unknown member of
                 Unknown TV Sitcom Actor's Band Wears Cal Hat!"
                \_ go bears.  Actually Cal is consistently one of the top 5
                   universities in sports merchandising sales, the others
                   being football/basketball powers.  We just have the
                   coolest colors and the coolest logos.  -tom
2001/2/1-2 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:20499 Activity:high
2/1     Are people just idiots or is there a practical reason for
        buying a sport utility vehicle?
        \_ Because Geo Metros have trouble supporting a machine gun
           gun mount.  -John
           \_ All the better to run over you with my dear.
              \_ Typical self-righteous SUV owner mentality. I hope
                 your tires rip apart tossing your Explorer around
                 you damn soccer mom.
        \_ It's a lot easier to drive SUV to the Sierra high country area
           during the winter.  Otherwise, you have to find other super
           juiced car that has 4 wheel drive.
           \_ Oh give me a break. SUV's don't handle better in snowy
              conditions. In fact, they're much worse. The only thing
              an SUV might give you is 4WD which only helps you
              accelerate better. But I'm guessing that much of that
              capability is used to compensate for the extra weight
              of an SUV. SUV weighs more making it handle more poorly
              and degrades its braking abilities. And 4WD/AWD isn't
              limited to SUVs and not all SUVs have it.
                \_ 4WD != better acceleration (in fact it's opposite).
                   4WD combines with slip differentials and M+S tires give
                   you the best traction on snowy conditions.
                   Audi, Subaru, BMW are not enough selections to choose from.
                   \_ No, but many cars include traction control systems
                      which are designed to reduce slipping during
                      acceleration (much like how ABS works). The point
                      of 4WD is to put 4 tires on the ground that will
                      drive in case one slips. If you're driving in such
                      bad conditions that your tires will slip when
                      you accelerate you shouldn't even be driving at
                      all because, conversely, you're not going to
                      fair much better at stopping and no amount of 4WD
                      is going to help you there.
                      \_ Some advanced 4WD systems work even when three of the
                         four tires slip.
                      \_ 4WD is always better than 2WD on slippy conditions.
                         That's why during R-2 conditions, only 4WD w/M+S
                         are permitted to go without chains.
           \_ Audi.  Audi is the STANDARD.  Juiced car that has 4 wheel
              drive. At any rate, SUVs may have good engines, but they
              are also heavy, and thus inefficient if you want to go
              uphill a lot.
              \_ Mitsu GTO Twin Turbo is the STANDARD! 938 HP, I can
                 win any course!
              \_ I wish I can afford an Audi A4.
                 \_ I wish I could afford an SUV so I can get an Audi.
                    \_ Really?  I was thinking of Audi A4 which in the
                       $40k range.
                       \_ The S4 is 40k range.  A4 is way cheaper.  You can
                          also wait a bit and get a quattro passat.  -pld
                          \_ I thought they were already out?  In any case
                             you can only get the same V6, which isn't too
                             exciting with the added weight of the AWD..
              \_ yesh. my A4 in a blizzard out-handles SUVs on dry pavement.
                 i only with it had the allroad air suspension so i could
                 take it out in the mohave instead of cramming into
                 my friend's truck. it also worked great the one time
                 i got into a mud-slicked hill climb down by santa cruz.
                 it's like saddling up a rottweiler.
        \_ I own a SUV mainly for biking, camping, and skiing trips.
           For commuting, I drive a cheap ass Toyota Tercel to save
        \_ Consumers are illogical. Consumers buy SUVs because they have
           the money/power/crave and most importantly, because they can.
        \_ My truck (what people call SUV) actually has better gas mileage than
           my friend's Mercedes C class.
           \_ sure but he probably gets more bimbos
              \_ But his is a 4-door automatic even though he's only 30.
                 \_ I've been driving a Lincoln since age 23. Chicks
                    dig it, and thier mom's like me too, cause they
                    think I'm stable and mature.
                    \_ Yes, papa.
2000/12/31 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:20204 Activity:nil
12/30   Strange, they all point to the same page
2000/10/27-28 [Reference/Military, Health/Men, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:19582 Activity:kinda low
10/27   Ok, we all know that men who drive big SUVs typically have small
        penises.  Does the same holds for men who own big guns?  They need
        to feel big and powerful by driving big cars and owning big weapons.
        \_ Please prove your contention that big SUV == small penis
                \_ Well, he _said_ "we all know".  Therefore....
                   \_ We don't all know this. Case and point,
                      his comment doesn't apply to me.
        \_ Do the women who drive SUV's also have small penises?
           \_ Yes, they require 2 double-A batteries; the D-battery dildos
              are just a little much. -yersister
           \_ Yes, they are 2 double-A batteries; the D-batteries as dildos
              are just a little much.
              \_ You sound like you speak from experience, good CSUAer!
        \_ The RIGHT to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with owning guns.
           This RIGHT is designed to guarentee that we are able to preserve
           our FREEDOM.
           \_ This just screams "wingnut" to me.
                \_ This just screams "moron who never read the 2nd amendment
                   but has a worthless opinion anyway" to me, but fortunately
                   for you, this is the U.S. where you still have the right
                   to be wrong and proclaim it loudly.
2000/6/26-28 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:18554 Activity:very high
6/26    Bike patented today.
        \_ urlp || explanationp
           \_ Like, dude.  If you want to be using lisp notation, at least
              have the decency to do it right.  What you meant to say was,
              of course,
              (or urlp explanationp)
        \_ Today???  How could it not be patented after all these years?
        \_ That's a velocipede, not a bike.  And it's from 1866.
                \_ well, it's an intermediate step; it has pedals on the
                   front wheel, which the early velocipedes didn't.  As
                   people realized the mechanical advantage of larger wheels,
                   this kind of model gave way to the "high-wheeler" (icon
                   of "The Prisoner").  Those had a high center of gravity
                   and tended to pitch people over the front wheel, so they
                   were eventually eliminated in favor of the chain-drive
                   "safety bicycle", which really was very similar to the
                   one we know today.
                   I still don't see why it's relevant to the MOTD.  -tom
                        \_ The motd is irrelevant.  You will be assualted.
                        \_ so tom.  what IS relevant to the motd?  I'm
                           somewhat curious how you're going to unify
                           questions about heat/light reflectivity, dating
                           asians, unholy unions with cars, skydiving,
                           and investment decisions in such a way as to
                           make the above IRrelevant.
                           \_ It's based solely on what personally interests
                              tom.  Anything else isn't important.
                        \_ My question is, why should anyone care that a
                           particular implementation of something was patented
                           on a particular day.  Big fucking deal.  -tom
                           \_ While I agree that patent-birthdays aren't
                              very interesting. But claiming that it's not
                              relevant to the motd is -- oh fuck it.  whatever.
                                \_ It's just tom.  Don't let it bother you.
        \_ heard it somewhere.  However, the date seems to be wrong.  It
           seems to be on November, and not June 26:
        \_ DRIVE SUV!
                \_ No, I get tested regularly.
           \_ DIVE SUB!
                \_ RIDE VELOCIPEDE!
                   \_RIDE VELOCIPEDE!!!! USE DIFFERENCE ENGINE!!!!
2000/6/26-27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:18551 Activity:insanely high
6/26    CSUA poll.  What car do you drive [if at all]?
        Acura Integra:          1
        Honda Accord:           1
        Honda Civic:            1
        Honda Passport:         1
        Jeep Wrangler TJ:       1
        \_ I'm a faceless Asian dude.
        Jeep Cherokee:          1
        Nissan 240SX:           1
        Audi A4                 1
        Nissan Maxima SE:       1
        Toyota Corolla:         1
        Audi S4
        Bike ride               1
        Ride Bike!              1
        Yermom 69               1
        Bike ride               2
        \_ Take Out Your Own Trash! Akimoto!
        \_ tom, is that you?
        BMW 325i:               1
        Ford Taurus             1
        Chevy Impala:           2
        Pimp Mobile:            1
        \_ I'm neither white, nor asian, and it's been running fine
        Saab 9-3                1
           for more than 30 months now.  *shrug* whatever.
        \_ I've got a pink velvet interior too.
        Ford Contour            1
        Ford Taurus             2
        \_ I'm white, so I wasn't allowed to buy Camry or Accord.
        Ford Escort             1
        GM EV1                  1
        \_ I burn coal at plant instead of gas in my engine.
        Geo Prism LSI:          1
           \_ I never thought of it that way. In other words
              the EV1 is probably a bigger polluter than a SUV.
              \_ Oh brilyant soda mind, electric power's source
                 to coal be not limited, as a nukular source can
                 provide to thee your "electricity".
        Geo Prism LSI:          2
        Honda Accord:           2
        Honda Civic:            1
        Geo Prism LSI:          1
        Honda Insight           1
        Lincoln Continental:    1
        Honda Passport:         1
        Honda S2000             1
        Jeep Wrangler TJ:       1
        \_ Are modern wranglers any more reliable than the old borken ones?
        Jeep Cherokee:          2
        Lexus is300             1
        Nissan Sentra:          1
        Lincoln Continental:    1
        Mercedes 300CE          1
        Audi A4                 1
        Audi S4
        Lexus is300             1
        \_ Kudos! Great car. -240SX guy from upstairs
        Mitsubishi 3000:        1
        Saturn SL1:             1
        Nash Metropolitan       1
        Nissan 240SX:           2
          \_ Is that you, asad?
        Nissan Pathfinder:      1
        Nissan Sentra:          2
        Nissan Maxima SE:       2
        Hummer (in a Hummer)    1
        Nissan Sentra SE-R:     2
        Saab 9-3                1
        Saturn SL1:             2
        Saturn SC2:             1
        Toyota Camry:           1
        Toyota Corolla:         2
        Toyota Tacoma TRD:      1
        Subaru Outback Sport:   1
        Volkswagen Passat:      1
        \_ how do you like your Passat?  it's a v6, right?
        Pontiac GrandAm         1
        Cadillac Seville        1
        \_ Does anyone know where to find the whole list where it makes
           fun of all the car brands?
                        \_ thank you.  Boring crap deleted.  -tom
        Hummer (in a Hummer)    4
        \_ jesus fucking christ i can't believe this
                \_ You can't believe a CSUAer owns a Hummer or that 4 of us do?
                   \_ i couldn't believe a sodan owned one when it was at 1,
                      much less 4.  what the fuck is wrong with you people?
                      \_ how about, 4 sodans got together and purchased
                         a hummer?
                         \_ how about 1 sodan bought 4 hummers?
                      \_ Why not?  It's under 100k fully loaded new.  There's
                         lots of .com cash floating around soda.
                         \_ They aren't that expensive.  I know yermom
                            doesn't charge anything for hummers.
        Whatever I can get
         that runs for < $1k    1
         whatever i can get
         that runs for < $2k    1
        \_ take it to /csua/pub/cars
           \_ File DNE, you cowards.
2000/6/23-25 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:18538 Activity:very high
6/23    I just saw something on the road which looked like an unholy
        love child of a VW bug and an SUV. The only distinguishing
        mark that I could read was something like "PT Courier" on
        the side. WTF is it?
        \_ It's the Red Bull mobile
        \_ pontiac or oldsmobile
        \_ Chrysler PT Cruiser.  It is a sin against all that is holy.
           \_ Bingo, that's it. Very impressive. Put your name down so we can
              rightfully honor you for your exurberant knowledge of Fucked Up
              \_ What the hell are you talking about? The PT Cruiser is a
                 marketing sensation that will approach the level of the New
                 Volkswagen Beetle.
              \_ get with the program man.  That's the car everybody wants and
                 nobody can have.  It lists below $20k but you're not allowed
                 to test drive it before you buy, because the test drive cars
                 sell the day they get in.
                 \_ i actually saw someone driving one of these on the road
                    for the first time today.  why in holy fuck would anyone
                    want to be seen driving this horrible monstrosity?
                    \_ It's like an expensive subaru forester with a crappier
                       engine and no four wheel drive.  And it looks ugly.
                       The front and the back are incongruous.
                       \_ Why require 4WD?  It's in the minivan class
                          according to the Edmond's URL above.
                    \_ Built by the finest Mexico has to offer. --dim
                       \_ What's wrong with that?
                          \_ Has Mexico become synonymous with quality for
                             anything other than tequila and fish tacos
                             since last I heard? --dim
                                \_ uh, yeah.  just like most filipinos
                                   are typically considered the trash
                                   of all the asian cultures.
                             \_ they produce cheap but potent tar heroin
                \_ Wow.  That is the fucking ugliest vehicle I've seen in a
                   long time.  Just goes to show how stupid and tasteless the
                   typical sucker hype eating consumer is.
                   \_ Which is why most consumers run Windows.
                         \_ Exactamundo...apathy and moving with the herd..
                        \_ Windows is not as ugly as this car.
                           \_ Windows is a ugly as the Prowler, which
                              looks like a giant cockroach on wheels.
        \_ Actually, the PT cruiser is a great concept, it is a "MicroVan",
           basically a super small version of the minivan.  Tons of room, zobs
           of cargo space, for something roughly the size of a Neon.  I think
           the styling itself is, emmm, "interesting" (yeah, that's it), but
           the basic drive towards maximum functionality in a given wheelbase
           is cool.  -nweaver
           \_ that's nweaver for you
                \_ Hi Tom.
           \_ Functionality is not cool.  functionality is functional.  cool
              is cool.
                \_ Let me extend that: That they have taken a maximally
                   functional vehicle and convinced people that it is cool, is
                   cool, since at least these "cool" people are buying
                   a vehicle that is a bit more useful then these
                   big bloated cows called SUVs.  -nweaver
                        \_ I'd like to see one of these match up to a
                           Expedition, Navigator or Suburban in a crash.
                           I value my life, so I drive a SUV not a little
                           toy. And you can cry me a river about Global
                           Warming and Green House gases. We all be better
                           off if the world was warmer and there were more
                           beaches. If my SUV is helping me get there, then
                           I've made the right choice.
                           \_ You are a complete moron.  Chances are that
                              driving an SUV will *cause* you to get in a
                              crash.  Do you have any idea how much
                              harder it is to stop or turn a 5500-lb
                              Suburban or Expedition with a high center of
                              gravity compared to a 3000-lb sedan with its
                              CG somewhere around your knee?  Why don't
                              you go test drive some cars and some SUV's
                              and and put them through the same emergency
                              maneuvers at the same speeds and tell us
                              which one you think is safer.  You're
                              probably just a poser who does all of his
                              driving on paved roads and drives an SUV
                              because you think it makes up for other
                              shortcomings.  Puhleeze.
                                   \_ I'll let you do the emergency
                                      maneuvers as you try to get out
                                      of the way of my chrome bumper
                                      and my tires.
                                \_ Congratulations, thou hast been trolled
                                   \_ Hmmm, I don't think so.  There are
                                      people who actually believe that
                                      SUV's are safer.  I take it as my
                                      duty to make them feel stupid.
                                \_ don't confuse today's SUV's with ORV's
                                   (off road vehicles).  None of those
                                   monsters with their full time 4WD can
                                   follow my Jeep TJ when the pavement ends,
                                   even if the driver wanted to.
                                        \_ Really, I'll be that a hummer
                                   \_ I'm not, and that's part of the
                                      point -- SUV's are designed to
                                      compromise between mild off-roading
                                      abilites and on-road abilites.
                                      Problem is that their on-road
                                      abilities are just good enough that
                                      some owners think they're as good as
                                      cars in that regard.  BTW, I
                                      have heard of Jeep Grand Cherokees
                                      (an SUV by any definition) making it
                                      through the Rubicon Trail.
                              \_ That's why SUVs are the real Windoze-like,
                                 bloated, "go-with-the-ignorant-masses"
                                 products. They think more about Crashing
                                 than avoiding a crash(unix,MBZ,BMW).
                                        \_ If I spend $50K on a shiny red
                                           toy car, I would think about
                                           avoiding a crash too. Since the
                                           probablity is that you and your
                                           little toy would end up as little
                                           tiny specks on my grille.
                                 \_ Its the stupid turds with thier little
                                    Dodge (I mean Benz) and thier BMW changing
                                    lanes without signaling, tailgating,
                                    and engaging all sorts of bad driving
                                    that I thought about when I got my SUV.
                                    I would just love to plaster one of those
                                    little 3xx BMWs or [CS]LK's on the Chrome
                                    bumper of my SUV. Bump, "What was
                                    that honey?", "Nothing dear, just another
                                    BMW that tried to cut us off.", "When will
                                    they learn?", "Hopefully never!".
                           \_ Hahaha!  I loved the spring like winter in
                              the midwest and read about the 109 degree
                              weather in the SF Bay Area!
                                 - midwest alum missing the Bay Area.
                           \_ Some of those SUVs have poor crash
                              records. In fact, their lack of manure-vability
                              may be a detriment. And they are dangerous
                              for the smaller, more fuel-efficient automobiles
                              out there, except for MBZ which does it right.
                              \_ You mean they are unsafe for the poor little
                                 pissers who can't afford to buy one.
                   \_ I prefer to think of them as drugged elephants.
                   \_ Ok, so you think it's cool they convinced stupid people
                      to buy an ugly box with 4 wheels?  Okaaaay....
                   \_ CSUA nerds dont know what is cool even if it bit them
                      in the ass.
                      \_ Dude, cool bit me in the ass today. That was NOT cool.
        \_ SUV vs 'others' summary:
                SUV driver: I'm a big wannabe-macho prick and I use my larger,
                        less stable vehicle to bully others.
                Others: I drive an X (non-SUV) because I'm not an asshole, I
                        don't want to be responsible for the death of another
                        human being, I don't want to get into *more* crashes
                        than I would otherwise, I have no 'issues' regarding
                        my masculinity such that I need to drive a poorly
                        built, low-control, over-sized, zero-value, truck
                        with a huge price tag, I'm not a bimbo soccer mom.
        \_ summary of SUV vs 'others' summarizer:
              summarizer: I know what other people are interested in,
                          cause i'm PSYCHIC. i's gots my degree, n'all.
                \_ No psychic powers needed.  It was all spelled out in plain
                   English.  Lots of stuff about running over smaller vehicles
                   and being 'safer' in a SUV, etc.  I don't need a college
                   degree to read and understand basic English.
                   \_ there's more to a conversation than it's summary.
2000/6/3-4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:18396 Activity:very high
04/64   Any recommendations for cars that are good to hit bicyclists with?
        I'm thinking about a small Mercedes, cause they have the crosshairs
        type hood ornament, but then those always get stolen.  Either that,
        or something really small and maneuverable, or something with light,
        quick-opening doors that you can take out bike messengers with?
        Maybe an SUV for effect?  Also, how do I pick up hot Asian
        chicks?  I'm a math major and can prove that gaussian is the only
        function family closed under convolution, using Windows NT, not
        that girly Linux crap.  -John
        \_ You forgot to mention that you dont want some damn japanese
           rice-rocket either.
        \_ .45 ACP is the standard.
        \_ I'm told a VW bug is best for wiping out bikers.  They have the
           best bumpers and no one considers a cute car a threat until they're
           gnawing on the underside of your rear tires.  Find a hot asian math
           major chick with an NT laptop.  The younger asian chicks (*your*
           little sister, soy boy) _LOVE_ the new bug.  I can get action from
           any asian chick 18-21 with the new VW bug.
           \_ Yes, as long as you can squeeze your lack-of-exercise-mashed-
              potato-stuffed turkey belly between the front seat and the
              steering wheel.  Otherwise your months of pussy eating
              would all go to waste when your frustrated "hot asian math
              major chick" decides to go medieval on your turkey arse
              with the VW bug plastic flower, then hop on to her
              Specialized mountain bike to race off to TA her math class
              on proving that guassian is the only function family
           major chick with an NT laptop.  The younger asian chicks (*your*
           little sister, soy boy) _LOVE_ the new bug.  I can get action from
           any asian chick 18-21 with the new VW bug.
              closed under convolution, and in her hurry, crushing the
              useless NT laptop lying on the pavement with her super knobby
              bike tires.
        \_ Are you being sarcastic?
           \_ Are you?
        \_ The doors on Mercedes are not very quick, unless you're talking
           about the low-end 190 series. Generally, four-door cars will give
           you better speed and maneuverability, however they have less
           range. There is no advantage to using an SUV -- the extra
        \_ It sounds like you want a saturn coupe.  The doors are light but
           long, so they can swing out fast and have a good reach.  The
           use of plastics means they can take more damage, and the red
           color hides bloodstains well.
           height is of no use unless you want to focus on the bicyclist
           head area. In addition, you have to consider the cost of
           repair and replacement. You'd be amazed how quickly doors
           wear out with the huge number of bicyclists in SF/Berkeley.
           \_ But headshots always do more damage!!
              \_ Aw, but they all wear helmet nowadays!
                \_ Hahahahhahaa... you ever seen one of those dinky helmets
                   after an auto rolls over it?  This dude's face wasn't even
                   identifiable, but he sure looked cool on that bike.  What
                   was left, anyway.
        \_ Fuzzy, you are the trollmaster.  I bow before you.
                \_ Fuzzy's post isn't really a troll.  For one thing, he
                   signed his name, which reiffin never does.  For another,
                   his post is actually funny, which reiffin's never are. -tom
                        \_ Whatever, tom.  -reiffin
                                \_ what, exactly, do you get out of deleting
                                   useful information and replacing it with
                                   inflammatory anonymous crap?  Is there
                                   any particular reason you choose anonymous
                                   trolling to be your sole point of
                                   interaction with the CSUA?  Is there some
                                   reason you don't just go away?  -tom
2000/2/27 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:17639 Activity:very high
2/26    Car recs? <=25k, economy primary, single person, thanks. -nick
        \_ RIDE BIKE!
        \_ is this nick weaver or nick kralevich? anyway, for $31K, you
           can get Honda S2000.
           \_ No, this is the other nick. Since when is 30mpg "good"?
              Jeeze. By now all cars should be made of fiber glass
              run on diesel or fuel cells and be getting 120mpg. Why
              hatchback would be nice. 30 mpg is squat! I want 80mpg :)
              does a Volkswagen Golf weigh 2950 pounds?!?!?! Why
              does CA ban diesel engines, but allow SUVs???? -nick
        \_ you dont say ANYTHING about style. It's all about style.
           There are lots of cars under $20K which give killer gas milage,
           etc, etc. Pick oneyou like. A '94 mitsu mirage lasted for me,
           and gets over 30 miles a gallon. (1.8 liter, manual).
           Plus front wheel drive kicks ass.
           \_ thanks! don't care about "style" as in "de moda", but
        \_ Buy 5-year old car, more bang for buck, plus still new enuf
              hatchback would be nice. 30 mpg is squat! I want 80mpg :) -nick
        \_ the new volkswagen offerings are lots of bang for the $$$,
           imho.  check out the golf/jetta variants with the 1.8L turbo...
           Avoid Mazda, Ford.
           \_ The request was for economy. i always heard turbos
              double your maintainance costs, and half your engine life.
              Not very economical.
        \_ Buy 4 or 5-year old car, more bang for buck, plus still new enuf
           to not be a total pain, but expect to pay $2K for immediate
           fixings. RECYCLEs car, SAVES gas, environment etc.
           Japanese: Nissan,Toyota (avoid Honda prices higher)
           Avoid used Mazda, Ford, SGI.
           How much is EV1?
           \_ in what way does it save gas? Newer cars will have
              better (i.e. lower) emissions profiles, right? And
              probably better fuel economy, as well. Unless I get
              a volkswagen GTI.  hehe. -nick
2000/1/30-2/1 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:17379 Activity:high
        \_ Which has a link to
           \_ Boy, are you anal-retentive or what.
                \_ Or what.
                   \_ You need to relax your anal sphincter.
                      \_ Or what.
                         \_ Or it will overflow through your nose.
                            \_ What will overflow through my nose?
                               \_ Take a guess.
                                \_ Or what.
                                   \_ Or listen to a frog croak:
                            personality.  It doesn't mean that you do
                      \_ As opposed to the non-anal sphincter?
                            lying around.  For example, your oral sphincter
                            is quite useful when it is closed, or trying
                            personality.  It doesn't mean you do
        \_ Nice site.  Fair analysis!  -- yuen, truck (aka. "SUV") owner
                            not have other useful or useless sphincters
                         \_ there are in fact non-anal sphincters.
                            sphincter is a general term referring
                            to the ring of muscle around an opening.
                         \_ The fact that your anal sphincter is most
                            prominent is mostly a reflection of your
                            personality and popularity.  It doesn't mean you
                            do not have other useful or useless sphincters
                            lying around your pale excuse for a body.
                            For example, your oral sphincter is quite
                            useful when it is closed, or trying
                            to do so.
        \_ Nice site.  Fair analysis!  -- yuen, truck (aka. "SUV") owner since
1999/12/22-23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:17084 Activity:kinda low
12/21   Has anyone seen the Weird Al video It's all about the Pentiums?  It's
        pretty damned funny.
        \_ damn you're slow.
        \_ they should've made it all about RISC.
        \_ since last summer.  If you hadn't seen that one
           before, check out as well
1999/9/17-18 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:16539 Activity:nil
9/16    Stumbled across this great site for searching prices on camcorders,
        cameras and etc.
1999/8/4-5 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:16246 Activity:high
8/4 - It's All About the Pentiums, Baby!
        \_ If you haven't seen it yet,

now     STL C++ crap deleted.  Anything ilyas touches turns into bullshit.
        \_ You're just feeling sad because ilyas stands up to motd
           punks like yourself. (It is of course well known that any
           interesting argument on the motd gets deleted, but I just
           felt like pointing this out for those who aren't paying
           \_ listen kid. there are people with clue who know what they're
              talking about, and then are people who think they know what
              they're talking about so they completely ignore those who
              try to clue them in. Ilyas falls in the second category, and
              most of the people who replied to him fall in the first. He
              could either take the stance of someone who is about to learn
              something and who should pay attention to what people are saying
              and make an effort to understand, or he could be the way he
              is. The second option gets his posts nuked.
1999/6/30-7/1 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:16043 Activity:high
6/30    Some time ago, there was a short that was a StarWars parody
        that you could download.  What is the name of it and does
        anybody know of a place that I could get it?  Thanks.
        \_ do you mean the South Park one?
        \_ or troops?  look around
           \_ Yes.  Thank you.
        \_ Do you mean TROOPS?
        \_ <DEAD><DEAD>
        \_ - Weird Al Yankovic, "Running with Scissors"
1999/5/24-25 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:15864 Activity:high
5/23    My friends and I want to start a E-commerce company.  Can anyone
        think of products that are not being sold on the Internet yet?
        \_ Human slaves.
        \_ mixed drinks
        \_ Soiled diapers.  Somebody out there must have a fetish for baby
           shit.  -
        \_ porn
        \_ Fresh tofu, for one.  For now you have to drive all the
           way down to either Sacramento or to San Jose to get the
           really good stuff.  And what if you move to Arizona?  No
           options, there.
        \_ human organs
        \_ Ice cream.
        \_ Promise me 50% of your revenue and I'll give you ideas.
           \_ That's it. Sell fresh ideas! Intangible product, yes, but
              potentially profitable.
        \_ Sexual services - become an e-pimp.
           \_ Been long since done.
        \_ Set up shop in amsterdam shipping marijuana around the world.
                \_ been done already
                \_ Just because you can use/buy/own/sell/etc the shit in a
                   dump like amsterdam (only parts of it at that), doesn't
                   mean that, oh say, US Customs is going to let your shit in
                   this country.
                   \_ dork
                        \_ Whoa!  You sure put me in my place!  You are *SOOO*
                           cool!  Try selling a
                           "how-to-be-cool-like-a-csua-geek!" kit on the net!
                           Train everyone to be like Mr. I-can-type-d-o-r-k!
                           Guaranteed big money!  Who wouldn't want to be like
                           Mr. I-can-type-I'm-a-big-boy-now?
                           \_ dork
                                \_ How can anyone argue with such logic?  You
                                   are truly Master Of Flames!  I bow before
                                   your vast and overwhelming intellect and
                                   general superiority!  All hail dork!
        \_ books/cds/videos
        \_ used condoms.  Especially those that are filled completedly
           with cum.
           \_ Damn, if i knew i could make a profit, i would've kept mine.
                \_ I can fill up half a condom with cum per orgasm.  Who
                   needs my cum?  -peter north
1999/1/6-7 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:15174 Activity:low
1/5     Any recommendations on an ADSL ISP?
        \_ tycho networks,
        \_ PBI has been plenty cheap so far...
1998/4/14-15 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:13955 Activity:high
4/14 ``Hello.  Your vehicle is large and is taking up
  too many parking places.  Please be considerate
    of other drivers when you park.  We have deflated
      your left front tire in an effort to point out
        how annoying this can be.  There is no damage
          to the tire or your car.
              Sincereley, the Peoples' parking commission
                   (PPC). ''
                           \_ The Port of Philadelphia and Camden?
    \_ please change this as you wish.  Yes, i know the
      web site is a red herring.  That's what makes it even
       more subversive :)
     \_ another thing you can say is "we may have deflated..."
       that way, you don't actually have to do anything, and
       you will get the bonehead to start thinking :)
        \_ sounds like the rantings of a small and petty person
        \_ This is stupid beyond belief.  Obviously someone purchased a
            large vehicle so they could take up more than one of the numerous
            easily obtained parking spots available in Berkeley or SF.  Next
            time they'll sell their large vehicle and buy two small ones to
            keep you happy.
1998/4/6 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:13905 Activity:moderate
4/6     This weekend I've finished my report on corrolation of the average car
        size that is manufactured vs. the state of the economy. Roughly
        speaking: 1920=midsize (bad/okay economy), 1950=huge car (++economy),
        1970=compact/small japanese cars (bad economy/OPEC crisis),
        1990=huge AND tall SUV (good economy).
        Isn't that an interesting observation?
        \- Interesting observation, but I think you don't have enough data
        points. I mean, maybe cars were that size/shape in the 20's because
        cars were more or less a new thing then. I agree about the downsizing
        from the 50's cars to the 70's. That was mainly due to the oil crisis.
        However, in the 90's, even the huge and tall SUV are getting pretty
        good mileage, arent they? They aren't necessarily fuel burners. -leblon
        \_ Toyota 4Runner gets about 18MPG. That compared to a Corrola or Civic
           with about 40MPG.... that's still a big difference. We're not even
           going to discuss Jaguar with about 8MPG or some luxury car with
           as low as 12MPG.
        \_ If I am not mistaken, they call the 1920's the "Roaring
Twenties," because, right up until the stock market crash of 1928,the
economy was incredibly strong. Cars of that era were some of the largest
ever produced, many with 400-500 cubic inch I-8, I-12, V-16, V-18, and
V-20s. True, horsepower and fuel economy were low, but that was mainly due
to poor metallugury of the engine componets. When you speak of the
Twenties, do not forget the Cadillacs, Duesenbergs, Lincolns and Pakers of
that era. In the thirties, despite the Great Depression, cars were still
produced, many of which were quite large and quite powerful for the times.
Even during the Gas Crisis, the Big Three still produced very large cars
(this is why the Federal Government had to bail out Chysler). It was not
until the early eighties that the Big Three finally caught on, and started
producing smaller cars to compete with the Japanese imports. Mid-size and
compact sedans in this country are often some of the largest cars on the
road in other Eurpoean and Asain countries.
1998/1/30 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:49809 Activity:nil
1/29    Hi.  We're considering buying a new car soonish.  We're trying to
        decide between the Honda Civic EX, the Accord LX, and the Subaru
        Impreza.  Any impressions/comments/suggestions?  Thanks...
        \_ sign your name, fool.  Anyway, the Subaru has AWD, useful
           if you want to go skiing without chains. -legacy owner
        \_ Honda Civic EX with 127hp and fuel efficient; plus you could get
           at around 15k...It's a very good deal...Now I just hope they sale
           Honda Civic Type-R here...
        \_ Chevrolet Suburban is good.
        \_ Got the Civic EX.  Like it.
        \_ The Civic and Accord are ridiculously overpriced, like all
           the vehicles riding the 'resale value' wave.  The market always
           collapses, leaving the wannabe yuppies riding them holding the
           lease and lein payments.
           \_ The Civic is probably the best of the small cars.  Good mileage
              isn't built like crap, relatively inexpensive, etc.  The
              Accord is an overgrown Civic with a price to match.  Dont do it.
        \_ essential site. Check the used prices to see resale
           value as well.  -mogul
        \_ I recommend a Honda Civic EX.  VERY gas efficient and good engine
           power out of this car.  With today's inflated gas price, it's
           very economical to drive a Honda Civic.
           \_ HX has even better milage.  (Manual version goes 44mpg!)
              And it costs less than EX.  You don't get that many horsepower
              and bells & whistles as EX but I think that's only a small
              penalty.  -- yuen
                \_ Got anti-lock breaks?
        \_ You also might want to look at the Saturn.  ("Ia Ia Saturn
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