Transportation Car Hybrid - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2013/10/24-11/8 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:54744 Activity:nil
9/30    Tesla Model S earned 5.4 stars on the NHTSA's 5-star safety test. (
        The only problem is that it's so expensive.
        \_ I am buying one. -dotcom millionaire
2011/12/5-2012/1/10 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:54250 Activity:nil
12/5    "Eight Ferraris wrecked in million-dollar pileup" (
        "Police and video reports say the wreck began when a 60-year-old
        businessman from Fukushima driving a Ferrari F430 attempted to pass a
        Toyota Prius, but instead hit the guardrail.  That set off a chain
        reaction among the cars driving in a tight formation behind the lead
        Ferrari, ......
        The Prius escaped unharmed."
        So much for "performance" cars.
2011/7/10-8/2 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:54141 Activity:nil
7/8     Is there some reason we can't have mass market nat gas cars?
        \_ Not enough infrastructure for refuing.  Chicken and egg.
        \_ Not enough infrastructure for refueling.  Chicken and egg.
        \_ It has less than half the energy density of gasoline.  -tom
           \_ So you have to compress it, which results in huge explosions
              during a crash. Same for flywheel tech.
              \_ It's not a safety issue; CNG isn't particularly more likely
                 to explode than gasoline.  It's that the amount of CNG that
                 fits in a gas tank won't get you even half of the distance
                 of a tank of gasoline.  -tom
                 \_ 1. Can we make CNG tanks and valves twice as strong, such
                       that it can withstand twice the pressure and can store
                       twice as much LPG in the same volume?
                       twice as much CNG in the same volume?
                    2. What about LPG?
                    \_ LNG is far more expensive to produce.  The answer to
                       your initial question is "yes."  -tom
        \_ My grandfather used to fuel his Suburban with a trailer hooked
           up behind it with CNG, it was cheaper than gasoline. This was
           back in the 80s and while he sometimes had to look around for
           a hookup he always found one. I always wondered why more people
           don't do this. -ausman
           \_ do *you* do this? and if not, why not?
              \_ I didn't own a car until very recently.
                 \_ and now?
        \_ Because we decided to not take over Iran, the world's second
           largest nat gas reserve.
        \_ Who cares, we have working pubtrans.
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2010/7/14-23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:53884 Activity:nil
7/14    DOT Report: Toyota crash data suggests driver error
        \_ "Moving ahead."
2010/3/9-30 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:53749 Activity:nil
3/9     "Prius with stuck accelerator glides to safe stop"
        "After the car decelerated to about 50 mph, Sikes turned off the
        engine and coasted to a halt."  Hmm, then why didn't he turn off the
        engine when the car was going at 94mph?
2009/7/21-24 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:53167 Activity:low
7/20    Do people not know that the only place where there is no speed
        limit is on a freeway onramp?  Which means that it is the entrant
        driver's job to speed up and get in past the existing traffic?
        \_ The ones who can't accelerate are in SUVs
           \_ True.  My 2nd-gen Prius (not the 2010) accelerates on the
              on-ramps fine.  -- !OP
        \_ People are stupid. Especially those in LA.
           \_ This happens everywhere, but most noticeable in 2 lane
              or smaller highways.  Indeed in LA, where freeways are wide
              the exsiting traffic has more recourse.
           \_ People might be stupid in LA, but they are much better drivers
              than the ones in the Bay Area. They are especially adept
              at handling merging.
2009/5/31-6/5 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:53063 Activity:moderate
5/31    I was talking to a harpist who asked me if there were any pieces
        that she shouldn't play at my wedding. I said... no, why would
        there be restriction? She told me there may be religious reasons
        or pieces that may touch some nerves. For example, she played
        for Jewish weddings and a few times she's been asked to not play
        Wagner's Wedding march. I find it interesting that 50 years after
        the war, people still feel offended by Wagner. So let me ask you
        Jewish people out there... do you or know someone who wouldn't buy
        or use German products because of the Holocaust? It's godamn 50
        years, and I doubt any [normal] German person still Heil to Hitler.
        \_ Great trolling attempt, I salute you.
        \_ 50 years isn't that long. My mom stills remembers WW II very well.
        \_ My aunts and uncles claims to hate Japan more than I do, but then
        \_ My aunts and uncles claim to hate Japan more than I do, but then
           they all buy more Japanes cars and AV appliances than I do.
           they all buy more Japanese cars and AV appliances than I do.
           -- Chinese
        \_ I have a coworker that won't buy VW. He has a Volvo and a Prius.
        \_ Jewy people buying german cars what the cock is that shit?
           ( )
            (audio NSFW, in case you couldn't guess).
            \_ is she Jewish?
            \_ THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!! A+++ totally recommended.
              \_ She is Jewish, this is her best number.
            \_ It's Sarah Silverman, FWIW, and I would hardly call this
               her best routine. In fact, I rather like Sarah and this
               bit kind of sucked.
               \_ I didn't call it her best routine.  (it is not) I called
                  it her best "number" by which I meant to imply that it is
                  her best musical bit.  This is good, but some of her
                  stand up bits are, in fact, awsome.  (Though a lot of
                  her stuff is just lame.  She's very inconsistent).
            \_ How about Ford? Shouldn't Jewish people boycott Ford, too?
               \_ I thought Ford, Disney, etc spend a LOT of efforts
                  hiring minorities.
                  \_ Ford Sr. was a notorious anti-semite.
                     \_ Ah but what Ford thought and what the company did
                        for minorities were two very different things.
2009/3/25-4/2 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:52753 Activity:nil
3/25    Anyone have experience soundproofing/dampening a small 4/8/12U server
        racks?  Let's assume it has side panels as well as front and rear
        \_ I haven't done that but I've done sound proof of my Prius and
           it works quite well. The secret was putting in thick sound
           material. Look at the following crappy example:
           I'm guessing you can use the same material for your racks.
           \_ My stock Prius is already pretty quiet as-is.  Why do you want
              to sound-proof it?
2009/2/17-21 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:52595 Activity:moderate
        Hack your Toyota Prius so you don't have to press the stupid I AGREE
        legalese before using the GPS. Thanks oj!
        \_ My Lexus has the same problem. Also, it won't work while
           driving. 'sup with dat? $50K for a crippled car. Toyota sucks
           so hard I will never buy another. This was my first and likely last.
           I owned Nissan, BMW, and Honda in the past.
           \_ I was not aware that BMW/Honda/Nissan didn't put in GPS
              disclaimers. My Toyota's GPS sucks because of that nanny
              feature and that the UI is sluggish (1-2 second response)
              and it drives me nuts. Do your other car's GPS have the
              same problem or no? Maybe I should start looking at other
              brands                            -former Toyota fan
           \_ So you won't buy a car because of its electronics which is subject
              to change from year to year?
           \_ So you won't buy a car because of its electronics which is
              subject to change from year to year?
              \_ I won't buy a car because of the attitude of the manufacturer
                 who thinks I need a car-nanny.
           \_ That's a safety feature.
              \_ That no other car has.
                 \_ It takes time for features to proliferate.
        \_ Which model year of Prius is it?  My 2008 Prius doesn't ask me to
           press "I agree" when I use GPS.
           \_ The latest nav s/w fixes that problem, but breaks the ability to
              use the nav while the car moves.
2008/11/3-4 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:51802 Activity:kinda low 50%like:51793
11/3    Here's a gas/diesel/biodiesel/ethanol/vegatable-oil + compressed-air
        hybrid, with plug-in capability:
        "Air Cars: A New Wind for America's Roads?" (
        - 60 miles at 35mph on one plug-in "recharge" alone.
        - 800 miles at freeway speed on one tank of gas/diesel/whatever alone
        \_ And of course it's ridiculously tiny and impractical.  Guess what,
           a tiny ass car like that with just a plain ol' gas engine would
           already get great mileage.
           \_ The Smart ForTwo doesn't get gas mileage anywhere close to this.
              In fact it doesn't even have better gas mileage than the Prius.
              \_ The Smart is bigger than this thing, can carry luggage, and
                 actually meets safety and performance standards.
                 "can be driven up to 70 km/hr" (43mph)
                 The car has 5.45 hp "maximum".  This is basically a golf cart.
2008/11/3 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:51793 Activity:nil 50%like:51802
11/3    Here's a fossil-fuel / air plug-in hybrid:
        "Air Cars: A New Wind for America's Roads?" (
        106mpg, 800 miles range without plugging-in.
2008/9/25-30 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:51304 Activity:nil
9/25    "BART gets an equivalent to 249 miles per gallon during the peak
        commute hours."
        \_ I assume that 249 miles per person per gallon,  which means my
           carpool gets 120.
           \_ That's correct.  My carpool of two on a Prius only gets 102. --OP
        \_ Do they publish their data?  What's the MPG during off-peak?
           What's the total MPG for all operational hours?
           \_ According to they use 300 GW/year of energy, at
              a cost of $31 million; according to they carry
              1.3 billion passenger miles a year.  If gas is $3.80 a gallon,
              then that's the cost equivalent of 160 person miles/gallon.  I'd
              like to know the pollution equivalent, too, but that sounds like
              more work to calculate.
              then that's the cost equivalent of 160 person miles/gallon
              overall.  Anyone want to calculate the pollution equivalent?
2008/9/4-8 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:51061 Activity:nil
9/4     Can someone point me to any well-regarded sites for GPS information?
        (something similar to for digital cameras, but for GPS)
        I'm mainly looking for in-car/dash-mount GPS, but I need to read up
        on the different methods available for live-traffic.  I could also
        use a site where I can narrow down my possible choices by features.
        \_ Don't. I live in LA. I spend over 2-3 hours a day on THE I-10
           I-110 and I-405. Don't. I bought a GPS w/ live traffic report
           from Costco. The delay is over 10 minutes, so by the time you
           get out, live traffic condition is already over. It is very good at
           looking at the past, but not the present. Traffic conditions in
           LA is too dynamic for this sort of stuff. You'll be going at
           0MPH with yellow dots while 60MPH with red dots. It is totally
           useless. My advice is to get the fuck out of Los Angeles instead
           of wasting money on GPS.   PS I returned my GPS from Costco.
           \_ If you were a real Los Angeleno you would know their proper
              The Santa Monica Freeway, The Pasadena Freeway and the San Diego
              Freeway. Go back to Tofuville.
2008/8/7-13 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:50807 Activity:moderate
8/7     JD Power dependability study:
        "Toyota's Prius hybrid was the top-ranked vehicle in the compact car
        Hybrid cars are not inherently less reliable.
        \_ But how will it be in 10 years? 15? Will it end up in a
           scrap heap sooner than a gas car?
           The Prius compared to a Camry or Accord (or Chevy Malibu)
           * more expensive, and also costs taxpayers with rebates
           * worse crash test ratings
           * less comfortable (less room, especially in the width, rear),
             no seat height adjustment, no telescoping steering column.
             \_ "headroom is cavernous and there's a tad more rear-seat
                legroom than in a Camry or Ford Crown Victoria."
           * batteries and electronics have their own environmental cost
           * Prius is slower, has poor handling and worse braking. (This
             is also a safety issue.)
             \_ Prius has higher peak torque at lower RPM as well as lower
                curb weight than even Camry V6 and Accord V6.  It can
                accelerate faster from low speed.
                curb weight than Camry 4-cyl and even Camry V6.
                accelerate faster from standstill.
                \_ It's still slower overall though.
                   \_ Yes, 0-60mph at 10.4sec.  But the Prius was never meant
                      to be a performance car.
           * Prius looks weird.
             \_ Maybe that's one compromize Toyota had to make in order to
                achieve a Cd of 0.26 with a 5-passenger car.
           In summary: people buy it to impress other people with their
           supposed environmental concern.
           \_ Why are you comparing interior room of a compact car with that
              of mid-size cars?  If the Prius were as big as Camry or Accord,
              it wouldn't be a compact car, would it?
              \_ I don't really care how it's classified since the real world
                 distinction doesn't matter much.  The Prius has a longer
                 wheelbase than most compacts and it costs a ton more than most
                 compact cars.  It is a fair bit bigger than a Yaris.
                 If you compare it to a Mazda 3 or VW Jetta it still loses out
                 on price and performance.  The new VW TDI isn't cheap but
                 at least performs much better than Prius with similar MPG.
                 IRS announced a $1300 credit on those now...
                 By the way:
                 "The 2008 Toyota Prius is a full-featured *midsize* car..."
                 \_ Hmm.  Wheelbase, right?  Let's see:
                    Civic Sedan:        106.3in wheelbase
                    Prius:              106.3in wheelbase
                    I guess by your logic the Civic Sedan is also a mid-size
                    car then.

                    Civic Sedan:        wheelbase 106.3in
                    Prius:              wheelbase 106.3in
                    I guess by your logic the Civic Sedan is a mid-size car

                    And the cost, right?  Let's see:
                    BMW M3 Sedan:       $53800 MSRP
                    Prius:              $21500 MSRP
                    I guess by your logic the M3 Sedan is an extra-full-size
                    car then.
                    I guess by your logic the M3 Sedan is an extra-extra-full-
                    size car then.

                    VW TDI?  Do you mean the 2009 Jetta Diesel?  Let's see:
                    Jetta Diesel:       29 city, 40 hwy, 33 combined
                    Prius:              48 city, 45 hwy, 46 combined
                    Similar MPG?  Well, if you say 33 and 46 are similar ......
                    (And how much is a gallon of diesel again?)
                    Similar MPG?  Well, if 33 and 46 are similar ......

                    \_ I don't know that you can trust the EPA estimate for
                       this car with the "revised EPA procedures".  VW claims
                       a lot better, and it got AMCI certification for
                       38 city/44 hwy. Ok, so not as good as a Prius with
                       more expensive fuel. But, it is a normal car with
                       much better performance (more fun to drive) and I
                       think more luggage space.  And a bit cheaper.
                       It will emit more CO2 though.
           \_ By "rebate" do you mean the fed tax credit?  That already ended
              for the Prius last year.
              \_ Ok. Weird. They still have tax credits for non-Toyotas.
           \_ Is it possible that someone could buy it because of a genuine
              environmental concern? I don't own a car, mostly because of
              a genuine environmental concern and I seriously doubt that my
              lack of car ownership impresses anyone.
              \_ Well maybe they just don't know and want to feel good about
                 it.  Marketing tells us that hybrids are wonderful for the
                 environment.  Your lack of a car is far better than having
                 a Prius.  Tons of people at my silicon valley work bought
                 Priuses.  Very few of them would bike to work.  But they
                 feel like they are saving the environment because they have
                 a hybrid.
                 \_ I used to ride the Line M bus across the San Mateo Bridge
                    to go to work.  I did that for 5yrs.  But when my son
                    started going to daycare, I went back to driving.  -- OP
              \_ I bought a Prius out of genuine environmental concern.  I'm
                 my late 30s, have a wife and two kids and a soccer-dad
                 in my late 30s, have a wife and two kids and a soccer-dad
                 minivan, and I leave work early everyday to pick up my kid
                 from daycare, and I take my kid to the office when daycare is
                 on holidays.  So whatever flashy car I get is not going to
                 help me impress any hot women or anyone else.
                 on holidays.  So even a flashy car is not going to help me
                 impress any hot women or anyone else.  And since I carpool
                 with my kid, I don't need a hybrid to use the carpool lane.
                 -- OP
           \_ Pretty much everyone I know who bought one did so for the
              carpool lane privilege.
           \_ The Prius acccelerates as well as most 4 cylinder cars and
              handles better. Are you thinking of the old Prius?
              \_ Not really... not compared to a gas Camry for instance.
                  "Wow, this is a strikingly slow car."
                  \_ From the very web page that you cited:
                     "Given the leisurely nature of most motorists'
                     acceleration habits, many will only occasionally notice
                     the Prius' power deficit."
                     "a 0-60-mph sprint of 10.4 seconds.  Given the leisurely
                     nature of most motorists' acceleration habits, many will
                     only occasionally notice the Prius' power deficit."
                  "Crummy steering feel "
                  \_ From the very web page that you cited:
                     "It is, however, tremendously easy to turn at any speed,"
                  "Sub-limit brake response is awful "
                  "Base model's soft suspension and fairly skinny,
                  economy-based tires allow marked cornering lean and
                  noseplow." (from your link)
                  \_ From the very web page that you cited:
                     "Everyone should be happy with the ride comfort, which
                     provides a buttoned-down, big-car feel to a lightweight
                     car. Compared to fuel-efficient compact cars, the Prius
                     feels almost Lincoln-like as it softly damps road
                     \_ A soft dampened ride is what 60 year old women want.
                        In fact, the entire car sounds perfect for a 60 year
                        old woman. For people who like to drive it's hideous,
                        but Prius doesn't claim to be a driver's car. It
                        just claims to save fuel, which it does. I wouldn't
                        buy one. In fact, I wouldn't drive one if you gave
                        it to me for free.
                 \_ "slow"?  Depends on the situation.
                    Camry 2.4 4-cyl:    161 lb-ft @4000rpm, curb wt. 3307lb
                    Camry 3.5 V6:       248 lb-ft @4700rpm, curb wt. 3483lb
                    Accord EX:          162 lb-ft @4400rpm, curb wt. 3408lb
                    Accord EX V6:       254 lb-ft @5000rpm, curb wt. 3567lb
                    Prius:              295 lb-ft @0-1200rpm, curb wt. 2932lb
                                        (not counting torque from engine)
                    Now imagine starting from a red-light.
        \_ I have no problems with hybrids or even electrics (see Tesla) if
           they are regular cars with a different engine and drivetrain.
           The Prius is different just to be different and the people who
           drive them *want* to be seen as different. It's actually a pretty
           shallow and feel-good thing. I think it's that same appearance
           which is more important than any actual environmental concern.
           Now that more manufacturers are making hybrids that otherwise
           look and act the same as any other car I don't see a point to buying
           an ugly and underperforming POS like a Prius.
           \_ So why is Prius still the #1 selling hybrid when there are
              a bunch of good hybrids like the Camry Hybrid and SUV hybrids?
              \_ Because those cars don't say "HEY LOOK I DRIVE A HYBRID".
                 It is also cheaper than a Camry Hybrid.
                 \_ Yeah, CAMRY, really impresses WOMEN!!! Women with BABIES
                    \_ Exactly his point. People drive Prius for shallow
                       reasons instead of Camrys.
                       \_ More or less shallow than people who buy sportscars?
                          \_ People who buy sportscars aren't claiming to
                             be saving the world by doing so.
                             save the world.
           \_ I have no problem with Prius or Prius drivers. I have problems
              with people who live in FUCKING SOUTHERN CAL. Dumb asses
              who drive 2-3 hours a day in LA. All that PLASTIC LOOK and
              BOTOX additicts and BEVERELY HILLS WANABES and SUPERFICIAL
              assholes living in HUGE MCMANSIONS and drive 2-3 HOURS a
              day in/around LA. LAME!!! I also think people who
              drive the fucking ugly Accord Hybrid are dumb. I mean,
              who the fuck pays that kind of money to drive a fucking
              Accord Hybrid with pretty much the same MPG as regular
              Accord with extra 100HP? Why don't you spend that money
              on a sports car? Fucking LAME TARD. FUCK I want to
              key scratch all fucking dumb ass Accord Hybrids in Pasadena.
              Stupid dumb asses. I guess they're so used to being told
              they're stupid that they don't GET IT anymore.
              \_ Bad troll, no cookie.
2008/8/1-5 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:50759 Activity:nil
7/31    "You Know Gas Prices Are High When Texans Start Driving Golf Carts"
        '"You wouldn't think it, but it's a chick-magnet," says the unmarried,
        40-year-old chemical engineer,'
        'The Peterses' cars get about 30 miles from a full charge, ...... or
        two cents a mile. Compare that with 20 cents a mile for a car that
        goes 20 miles on one $4 gallon of gasoline.'
2008/7/25-30 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:50693 Activity:nil
7/25    Does anyone have JBL sound system in their cars?  I bought a 2004
        Toyota Sienna without getting the JBL option, and a 2008 Toyota Prius
        with the JBL option.  Listening to the same CD in both cars when
        parked, my Sienna sound better than my Prius, in that the sound is
        more full rather than just loud, and closer to a home hi-fi.  Is JBL
        really worth the money?
2008/7/15-23 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:50578 Activity:nil
        Move over Tesla, a cheaper electric car is on the horizon!
        \_ The RAV4 EV wasn't that expensive.
        \_ Why do you say 'move over tesla' when the linked article is actually
           about the next model of tesla?
           \_ What I mean is "Move over, expensive car for rich people.
              FUCK Y'ALL RICH PEOPLE who benefited from tax breaks from
              F*** Y'ALL RICH PEOPLE who benefited from tax breaks from
              GWB and Reagan, now we poor suckers can drive EV as well!"
2008/7/9-11 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:50520 Activity:nil
        Buying a brand-new Prius vs. buying a certified pre-owned Corolla.  The
        former is greener (manufacturing energy usage included).
        \- i dont understand why they dont talk about the typical calculus
           which is "keep current car or buy prius". it seems silly to assume
           a car will be bought. that was an interesting point about spending
           prius premium on other avement measures, but again, i dont think
           that's typically why people are buying cars. realitically you
           would reasonably factor in things like the HOV lane access.
           \_ Isn't that no longer a factor?
        \_ Not sure I really buy this conclusion. Doesn't it depend on how
           many miles one drives?
           \_ It uses an average of 15000 miles/yr, which is the number that
              EPA uses to estimate annual fuel costs.
              EPA uses to estimate annual fuel costs.  -- OP
        \_ Skimming the article it seems to imply I'm buying a pre-owned
           Corolla with 0 miles, but then isn't counting the cost of building
           the Corolla because it is pre owned.  Huh?  Why not magically buy
           a pre-owned Prius with 0 miles on it that costs 0 energy to produce?
           You need to depeciate the production cost of a car over its
           lifespan, not all at purchase time. (which yes I'm aware makes
           the prius even MORE efficient, but somehow with a glaring hole
           in the dude's logic like that I'm not exactly in a charitable
           mood when it comes to trust.)
2008/6/9-12 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:50195 Activity:nil
6/8     6 Ways You're Wasting Gas - Yahoo! Autos Article Page:
        \_ Dumbest article evar!  Why does common sense continue to masquerade
           as news articles?
           \_ Because a lot of people don't seem to have much common sense?
2008/6/1-2 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:50114 Activity:nil
6/1     why is Ford pushing plans to sell HYBRID giant fat man SUVs
        that get 20 mph.  yeah what the hey its a hybrid, big whoop.
        I for one welcome our new masters, Toyota.  I'm too old to learn
2008/5/9 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:49912 Activity:nil 53%like:49895 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2008/5/7-9 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49895 Activity:nil 53%like:49912
5/6     Spy shots of the redesigned 2009 Prius
        The current (because Insight is out of production) king of MPG will
        get even higher MPG.
        \_ all look the same
2008/4/21-5/2 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49793 Activity:nil
4/21    Think car. 0 emission and 124 miles per charge:
        \_ It reads "zero *local* emissions."  Nonetheless, "an energy
           efficiency three times that of a traditional combustion engine
           car" is still pretty impressive.
2008/3/24-27 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49546 Activity:nil
3/24    X Prize for 100mpg vehicles:
        I think the 100mph requirement for the mainstream category is too high.
        Something like 85-90mph will be more useful.  OTOH I think it should
        add a crash test requirement to that category.
        \_ Put up your own prize money.
2008/3/12-17 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49439 Activity:kinda low
3/12    US Use of Public Transportation Highest in 50 Years
        \_ Where's Los Angeles?
        \_ "In 2004, the latest year for which the data is available, all
           modes of public transit accounted for 49 billion passenger miles;
           total vehicle miles travelled in the US is around 3 trillion per
           year."  Sigh, still way too little to be significant.  I hope high
           gas prices are steering more people to public transit.
           \_ Why is this something you hope for?
              \_ So assholes like you who live in the make belief world
                 of endless energy in Southern Cal will realize that
                 you're raping mother earth and killing everyone else.
                 \_ We have practically endless energy. It's called nukular.
                    I am more concerned about you Prius-driving idiots
                    using all of our precious water for your batteries.
                    \_ One needs to add water to the Prius battery??
                       \_ No, but the generation of power requires water.
                          Unless you go nukular, which "green" people oppose.
                          \_ One doesn't charge the Prius battery with
                             electricity from electric company.  (Unless you
                             modify a Prius to become a plug-in.)
              \_ We must force people to live in the true Urban Utopia for
                 their own good.
                 \_ No, just let the Invisible Hand do its work.
2008/3/7-11 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49384 Activity:nil
3/7     Stuff like this can make the cities even more desireable places
        to live. Imagine urban mobility without sharing the bus or
        having to hunt for a parking place:
        \_ That "stuff" is called the bicycle, scooter, and motorcycle.
        \_ ya know, not everyone shares your vision of Liberal Urban Utopia.
           Despite the obvious rise and demand of city homes, the number
           of people moving to suburbs still outstrip the number of people
           moving to cities. The increase supply of city homes still cannot
           meet the growing needs of our nation. As long as suburbs are
           more affordable, there will be people moving to suburbs.
        \_ OMG, now my car would actually be a useless little dink box that
           every idiot has drooled over, left their condoms in, used to shoot
           up, and I'm going to get busted for the drugs and god only knows
           what that some idiot left in it before me.  Fortunately I dont have
           to carry anything bigger than a water bottle so this vehicle is
           just perfect!  I'm ready for Urban Utopia!
        \_ This is new??  How is this different from the Toyota PM that has
           been announced for a while?
2008/3/6-7 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49353 Activity:low
3/6 (Yahoo! Finance)
        "The average cost of owning and driving a car 15,000 miles a year is
        $7,830 according to AAA. SUVs are even more costly, at $9,990 per
        \_ I guess that sounds about right. My cost has been less than half
           of that (~$3k/yr) but I drive near half as much. That also
           doesn't include resale value of my car, but my car won't have much
           in that department. And of course I'm not including taxes and
           environmental costs associated with owning and driving my car.
        \_ How long does it take to grow $652/mo into $1M? By my calculations,
           about 25 years, if you invest in the stock market. So I can retire
           at least 10 years early by getting rid of one car.
           \_ Or by getting a efficient dependable used car.  Say a late
              90's/early 00's corolla.
              \_ $652/mo is average. Even an older car costs almost that
                 \_ Gas (15k mi/yr): $145/mo for 30mpg at $3.50 a gallon
                    Depeciation on a car that old: negligible, say $50/mo.
                    Insurance: ~$50 mo.
                    \_ Are you out of your mind? $50/month?! I wish. I pay
                       $2400/year for two cars with no accidents or tickets.
                       \_ If you pay that much for an 8-9 year compact car
                          without comprehensive or at least a really high
                          deductable, you are paying way too much.
                          \_ Depends on what coverage you want and I
                             wouldn't drop comprehensive. I had my 1993
                             Honda stolen and I was glad I had it.
                             \_ When your car is worth ~4k comprehensive
                                adds up to the price of your car pretty
                                damn quickly.
                                \_ Eh. $400/year is worth it for $4K.
                    Repairs: less than $50/mo.
                    That's a about half the cost.  Not so bad.  (Oh and 15k
                    miles a year is a lot for a car that you can live without.
                    If you are doing 15k miles on a bus that is going to
                       (even without any depreciation, that is $5100/yr)
                       I trust Edmund's numbers better than yours.
                       \_ Depeciation looks like I was high.  (See how by
                          year 5 it is ~50/mo.  Taxes are going to be lower
                          because you bought it used.  Insurance is going to
                          be lower because you shouldn't have comprehensive.
                          Financing is non existant if you buy it used.
                          Gas I seem to be a bit high.  So knock OFF 10-20/mo.
                          Mantenance/repairs seem silly high to me, I've
                          never needed to spend that much on my car.
2008/2/23-26 [Transportation/Bicycle, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49222 Activity:nil
2/23    Suburban loving conservative leaning family oriented people will
        suffer from record high gas prices. Meanwhile, stinky bike riding
        Linux loving liburals sneer at everyone else with
        "I told you so [wrt to Peak Oil]!"
        \_ key word: troll
        \_ What about Prius-driving environment-loving conservative-leaning
           family-oriented people like me?
           \_ You have children?  You don't RIDE BIKE?  You are further right
              than that sellout Feinstein?  You are a traitor to mother earth
              and all clear thinking people.
2008/2/15-18 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49151 Activity:high
2/14    It took me over 2.5 hours to drive from Santa Monica to Arcadia,
        a distance of 38miles, or 15MPH. What the hell is wrong with
        Los Angeles and why do people actually want to live in LA? God
        I can't wait to get out of this shithole the time comes.
        \_ Maybe for the H07 CH1X?
        \_ Dude, take the 405N to the 118 and it won't take 2.5 hours.
           \_ You DUMB FUCK I will still need to get to 210 which will
              FUCK IT UP as badly as I-10/I-60. FUCK YOU DUMB FUCK.
                   \- motd road rage!
              \_ There is no traffic eastbound on the 210 between the
                 118 and 134. After that you are almost there and can even
                 take the street if you want. And if you are taking the 10
                 or the 60 from SM to Arcadia at any time other than the middle
                 of the night you are obviously the dumbfuck. You proved
                 it with your ridiculous 2.5 hour commute.
                 \_ No. 210 going through Pasadena towards Azusa is a
                    total suicide. You obviously haven't driven that part
                    in the past 5 years where there were plenty of new
                    homes sprawling in Azusa/Glendora making the commute
                    a total nightmare.                          !op
                    \_ So don't take that part of the 210 and get off in
                       Pasadena and take the street to Arcadia. Up until
                       that point (where 210 and 134 meet) there is no
                       eastbound traffic on the 210.
                       \_ Are you proposing taking big streets like
                          Huntington (slow slow) or side streets with
                          a bunch of stop signs? 15MPH on 210 is actually
                          faster than Huntington at stop+go @25MPH, and
                          faster than small streets at stop+go @15MPH.
                          \_ You aren't going to get to Arcadia without
                             doing one of either:
                             1) Taking the 210
                             2) Taking sidestreets
                             However, it's a small part of the overall commute.
                             Personally, I would take Walnut to Foothill.
                             \_ Why not take the 105 -> 605 and into
                                Arcadia the back way? Ten years ago this
                                would have been the fastest way, but I have
                                not driven in LA in a long time.
                                \_ This can work depending on time of day.
                                   605 can get traffic. 118 literally
                                   never has traffic ever that I have seen.
                                   \_ Getting onto 118 from 405 is DUMB.
                                      The 405/101 junction fucks everyone
                                      one. In short, LA is one of the WORST
                                      \_ Yes, but you aren't on it long.
                                         Of course you know best because
                                         your way took you 2.5 hours.
                                      planned cities I've ever seen and
                                      I hope it gets nuked so that we can
                                      rebuild it from scratch. FUCK LA.
                 \_ You are seriously proposing turing the 33 mile trip
                    into a 57 mile one? Why not take the 134 East through
                    the Valley?
                    \_ Traffic. The fastest distance between two points is
                       not necessarily a straight line. 57 miles at 70 mph
                       is a lot faster than 38 miles at 15 mph.
              \_ Taking your road rage to the motd?
        \_ Obviously what's wrong with the LA metro area is it's got
           a lot of sprawl and has crappy mass transit.
           \_ All traffic problems come down to too many people in too small
              an area with insufficient means of transit (all means) to get
              from any arbitrary A to any B.
              \_ nice tautology.  so what is the implication of rail
                 being able to deliver five times the carrying capacity per
                 land unit?  -tom
                 \_ 5x the capacity is only useful if there are 5x the number
                    of commuters who share a similar route and schedule.
                    You need to solve the real world problem and not a
                    theoretical one based on non-existent distributions of
                    commuters. A train from Pasadena to Santa Monica will
                    be nice, but :
                    1. It will make so many stops along the way it that won't
                       be as fast as it seems.
                    2. Lots of people still need a way to get from the
                       terminal to their jobs. What we see a lot of in LA
                       is people buying *TWO* cars and leaving one at each
                       end of the station. This creates other problems
                       like parking and gridlock near the stations.
                    \_ You're being disingenuous; cities all over the world
                       (including some in the U.S.) have effective rail
                       infrastructures that reduce congestion.  -tom
                       \_ Rail can reduce a certain amount and most major
                          cities/regions have some sort of rail system.  But
                          it is not and can not be the primary method of travel
                          for the majority of people no matter how much you
                          scream "rail! ride bike!" on the motd.
                          \_ Do you need me to list the counterexamples?  -tom
                             \_ Sure, go ahead if it makes you feel better, but
                                no one is going to rebuild our entire country
                                to fit your sardine fantasy lifestyle.  We are
                                spread out because a) most people want space
                                and b) life is more than living in an apartment
                                next to bart so I can get to work.  You can't
                                build a rail system that allows me to get
                                everywhere in a reasonable time.  Please
                                proceed by posting list of EU cities with
                                rail systems and insanely high density rates.
                       \_ Cities all over the world were not built around
                          the automobile. Given that much of the Western
                          US was what do you propose other than forcibly
                          relocating people to create your own utopia? At
                          this very moment rail does not make sense in
                          most of this country given the existing situation
                          and if you build it they may not come for
                          decades during which you run your rail at a
                          tremendous loss.
                          \_ I mostly agree, but if we wait for $10/gallon
                             gasoline first and then start building an alternate
                             transportation infrastructure, we are going to
                             be in a world of hurt. It is not a bad idea to
                             at least imagine what a post-auto world would
                             look like. Then again, maybe by then everyone
                             be driving electric smart cars and we can have
                             our suburbs and clean air to boot. But I don't
                             think we should count on that happening.
                             gasoline first and then start building an
                             alternate transportation infrastructure, we
                             are going to be in a world of hurt. It is not
                             a bad idea to at least imagine what a post-auto
                             world would look like. Then again, maybe by then
                             everyone be driving electric smart cars and we
                             can have our suburbs and clean air to boot. But
                             I don't think we should count on that happening.
                             \_ We can always drive smaller cars. Even tiny
                                motorcycle-like trikes or whatever I think
                                would be more popular than trains. The freedom
                                of cars is not something I think people are
                                going to just give up. We could regulate a
                                small auto weight/size for use within urban
                                zones. I would have no problem using tiny
                                vehicles as long as the safety was there.
                                \_ I agree. I would have a hard time
                                   giving up the freedom of my vehicle.
                                   I'd rather ride a motorcycle than sit
                                   on a train with smelly people.
                          \_ Freeways run at a tremendous loss, too.  It
                             would not be significantly more difficult to
                             put in a rail system than it is to do freeway
                             expansion; it certainly would be easier to do
                             a train crossing than the new Bay Bridge for
                             example.  (And the new Bay Bridge won't even
                             increase capacity!)  If we put in real
                             high-speed rail on the *existing* rail
                             right-of-ways in the Bay Area, and coordinated
                             it all under one agency instead of the mishmash
                             we have now, we'd have a fine system.  It's
                             ridiculous to suggest that it's technically
                             or financially infeasible; the only problem is
                             politics.  -tom
                             \_ It's financially unfeasible and I've told
                                you why, but you keep choosing to ignore me:
                                You have to keep operating the freeways at
                                the same time you build out the other
                                infrastructure and you will probably
                                always have to operate a major highway
                                system in addition to mass transit (e.g.
                                Autobahn in Germany). Where is the cost
                                savings in this? What you get is a savings
                                in time in exchange for the increased cost.
                                If that's the situation then toll roads
                                are a better solution because only those
                                whose time is most valuable are contributing.
                                Besides, I don't think SF is really the issue.
                                It's small and BART works fine for what it is
                                (getting people to<->from downtown). I want to
                                know what you do in Orange County or Ventura
                                where most people are not commuting to<->from a
                                \_ It's not financially infeasible; it's been
                                   done all over the world.  Per
                                   passenger-mile, trains are less expensive
                                   than roads, so any investment you make in
                                   trains instead of roads reduces your
                                   overall costs.  Oh and by the
                                   \_ You are missing my point. You want
                                      to add rail to the existing roads
                                      infrastructure. This is a net expense.
                                      Whether it has been done elsewhere
                                      is irrelevant. Your suggestion will
                                      cost taxpayers more money. I am not
                                      debating whether it will be
                                      beneficial or not. However, it will
                                      be expensive because you cannot
                                      make investments in trains
                                      instead of roads. You will have to
                                      make investment in trains IN
                                      ADDITION TO roads and trains are not
                                      cheap. How much they cost relative
                                      to roads is not relevant because you
                                      still need the roads.
                                      \_ Here's a hint: A huge amount of
                                         money will be spent on NEW ROAD
                                         CONSTRUCTION in the Bay Area in
                                         the next 30 years.  That money
                                         could be spent on rail instead
                                         and provide MORE CAPACITY for the
                                         same amount of money.  -tom
                                         \_ How much new road construction
                                            can there be? It's pretty much
                                            all built out. Is it enough
                                            money to build and maintain a
                                            rail system? How many people
                                            will the rail serve versus the
                                            highway? Capacity is not really
                                            an issue.
                                            \_ What planet are you living on?
                                               There are lanes being added
                                               all over the Bay Area and
                                               they're digging a new bore
                                               of the Caldecott.  -tom
                                               \_ Is it enough to build
                                                  and maintain a rail system?
                                                  How many people will be
                                                  served versus the highway?
                                                  \_ Yes, and more.  At least,
                                                     that's true everywhere
                                                     else in the world and
                                                     there's no reason to
                                                     expect the Bay Area would
                                                     be different.  -tom
                                                     \_ I challenge your
                                                        claim that more
                                                        people would be
                                                        served by spending
                                                        road expansion
                                                        funds on rail than
                                                        on roads, but if
                                                        it's true I support
                                                        your position. I
                                                        just highly doubt it.
                                                        \_ Rail serves more
                                                           per dollar, more
                                                           passenger-miles per
                                                           land unit, more
                                                           passenger-miles per
                                                           energy input and
                                                           carbon output.
                                                           What other measure
                                                           would you use for
                                                           serving people? -tom
                                         \_ Because roads are more useful than
                                            trains.  The invisible hand has
                                            chosen freedom over socialist
                                            \_ Well, no, actually the U.S.
                                               government has heavily
                                               subsidized auto travel, while
                                               requiring the train system
                                               to pay for itself.  If
                                               it hadn't been for government
                                               regulation and intervention,
                                               U.S. cities would still have
                                               decent rail systems.  The hand
                                               was the hand of self-interested
                                               auto-makers, not the market.
                                               And everywhere the government
                                               hasn't heavily subsidized roads,
                                               people choose trains.  Not for
                                               100% of their trips, but for
                                               more than enough to pay off
                                               on the investment.  -tom
                                               \_ BART doesn't pay for itself.
                                                  And when rail is installed
                                                  people don't use it if
                                                  they can avoid it. Most
                                                  people prefer to drive
                                                  if given a choice. If
                                                  rail was a good idea
                                                  then it would be able to
                                                  pay for itself. I have
                                                  no doubt that roads could pay
                                                  for themselves. In fact,
                                                  the toll roads in OC do
                                                  pay for themselves.
                                                  Maybe some day in the
                                                  future there will be so
                                                  much traffic that more
                                                  people will turn to rail
                                                  but we're not even close
                                                  to that day yet so why
                                                  bother with it? Should
                                                  we install infrastructure
                                                  for flying cars now, too?
                                                  \_ Actually, where decent
                                                     rail is installed people
                                                     do use it; do you have
                                                     evidence that they don't?
                                                     \_ Gold Line. It takes an
                                                        hour by rail to
                                                        get where it takes
                                                        20 minutes by car.
                                                        Of course you used
                                                        "decent" as a
                                                        weasel word,
                                                        because any rail
                                                        that people don't
                                                        take is clearly
                                                        not decent.
                                                        \_ Is it high speed?
                                                           No.  -tom
                                                           \_ You aren't
                                                              going to have a
                                                              bullet train
                                                              serve closely
                                                              spaced stations,
                                                              are you? Your
                                                              list of
                                                              requirements is
                                                              \_ Once again
                                                                 with the
                                                                 strawman. -tom
                                   way, the Bay Area was built out on rail
                                   infrastructure.  My house was built in
                                   1916, and it's a block from what used to
                                   be a train station.  Trains went all the
                                   way through the east bay flatlands and
                                   through a tunnel (now closed) to the
                                   further East Bay.  Almost all of SF,
                                   Oakland and Berkeley were built before
                                   the advent of the single-occupant auto.
                                   The trains are gone due to a combination
                                   of perverse incentives and criminal
                                   conspiracy, but it's absurd to suggest
                                   that it's impossible to have rail transit
                                   in the Bay Area.  -tom
                                   \_ Not impossible, but unnecessary and
                                      expensive. And most existing development
                                      in the Bay Area was not done based on
                                      rail. I mean, LA was built on rail
                                      also (Henry Huntington) but let's be
                                      realistic about then vs. now in
                                      terms of existing distribution of
                                      housing, jobs, and retail. Most of
                                      that came post-WW II and was based
                                      on the auto.
                                      \_ Are you interested in the facts at
                                         all?  San Francisco, Oakland, and
                                         Berkeley all hit their population
                                         peaks in 1950, at a time with
                                         relatively low car ownership.
                                         The outlying suburbs would be
                                         much better served by high speed
                                         rail than by, say, driving on 80
                                         through Berkeley.  -tom
                                         \_ Served to do what exactly?  Your
                                            trains are intended for universal
                                            transport without requiring any
                                            auto transport for the general
                                            \_ Why do you keep coming back to
                                               this straw man?  Oh, right,
                                               because you have no facts and
                                               no argument.  -tom
           \_ LA needs more freeways!
        \_ L.A. people check traffic first, then drive:
           \_ We also know to stay the hell off of certain freeways at
              certain times (and some all of the time) if we can help it.
              My girlfriend used to manage runners for the film industry
              and they rarely even took the freeways - even during the middle
              of the day.
              \_ Like I said it's a mystery why people fucking love to
                 live in LA. Smog, rude drivers, traffic. What a shithole.
                 \_ Because weather is overrated.
                 \_ I guess it depends on what's important to you. People
                    from small towns would say the same about SF or any
                    other city and people from cities scoff at people who
                    live in rural areas. Both have advantages, but cities
                    represent more opportunity. LA has a lot more going
                    for it than most cities in many ways. Traffic and parking
                    are issues, same as they are in SF and NYC. I really like
                    SF but to me it's very provincial compared to LA and
                    the weather *does* matter a lot to me.
                 \_ Great cities of the U.S.:
                    New York City, Los Angeles ... and that's about it.
                    \_ NYC >> SF > Chicago >> LA
                    \_ San Jose
                       \_ SF is a footnote of a city. Chicago is a great
                          city, but the weather is terrible. Not that the
                          weather in NYC is great either, but if you have
                          to choose then NYC has the edge.
                             Who is the Global City here?
                             \_ No idea what that means, but on your
                                same web page you will see Chicago
                                scored 10 points and SF scored 9. In
                                reality that's too high, too, but I'm sure they
                                are lumping "Northern California" together
                                into "San Francisco".
                 \_ I totally agree. I absolutely hated LA/UCLA and couldn't
                    wait to move back up here.
                    \_ What you hated was your own situation, not the city.
                       \_ Actually there is some truth to this b/c I totally
                          did not like UCLA. But the fact that LA was always
                          congested, the drivers were rude and the smog did
                          little to help. I just can't imagine why anyone
                          would want to live in LA. The Bay Area is a much
                          nicer place to live (even Fremont).
                          \_ The drivers here are not rude and stupid?  I want
                             to know where you're driving so I can drive there
                             \_ I'm in Cupertino/SJ but I live like 2 miles
                                so I only take local roads during off hours
                                and never see anyone on the streets.
                                from work so I only take local roads during
                                off hours and never see anyone on the streets.
                                When I was driving to Menlo Park via 85-101,
                                I used to have flashbacks to the 405. Still,
                                I much prefer the bay area, at least the
                                traffic moves most of the time.
                    \_ You prefer the yucky fart of Prius loving hippies?
                       \_ To the smog and congestion of LA, yes.
                    \_ If you hate it so much why don't you move now?
2008/2/6-7 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49083 Activity:nil
2/6     Does it cost a lot to replace tires on a Prius?  Do the low-rolloing-
        resistance tires cost more than ordinary tires?
        \- according to my prius associates, it was $600 to replace theirs.
        \_ (
           Get the ComforTreads, comfy and nice, just 2-3MPG less.
2008/2/6-7 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49081 Activity:nil
2/6     "Toyota to Start Sales of Lithium-ion Plug-in Hybrids by 2010"
        It's no longer rumor.
2008/1/25-2/2 [Recreation/Food, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49011 Activity:nil
1/25    Which reduces carbon footprint more: buying a Prius, or becoming a
        \_ Killing yourself.
        \_ Moving out of Los Angeles and dating Asian (they eat less).
           \_ But you'd do more heavy breathing and consume more condoms.
        \_ RIDE BIKE!!!!!
        \_ Dumpster Diving.
        \_ Smaller carbon shoes.
2008/1/24-31 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:49005 Activity:nil
1/24    Some hybrid car models shut down the engine when the car is not moving.
        How do you warm up such a car in the morning?
        \_ the car does it for you.
2008/1/4-8 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48883 Activity:very high
1/3     Why are home prices steady in the cities and collapsing
        in the suburbs? (Twin
        \_ This article really only sort of answers that question.  A better
           question is, why did the home prices in the suburbs get so out of
           whack in the first plae?
           whack in the first place?
           \_ They weren't out of whack.  This should all be obvious.  There
              are more jobs in the city so price/sqft in the city is higher.
              Not everyone can afford that or wants to live in a city so
              suburbs spring up around them and more around those in rings.
              As prices decline, they first decline further from job hubs and
              work their way back in.  If things continue city prices (which
              IMO are just as out of whack) will also fall.
              \_ Hmm... you're not the swami...
              \_ There are a lot of theories about this, but you should
                 know that in many large cities the prices are less than
                 in the affluent suburbs. Whether the market thinks the
                 cities or the suburbs are more desirable changed over time
                 from suburbs to cities to suburbs. Now the pendulum is
                 swinging back to cities again. However, there are still
                 many cities in this country in which living in the heart
                 of the city is not exactly desirable as compared to the
                 suburbs. Imagine, say, Detroit for example. It's not
                 really about 'job hubs' or 'shopping' or 'transportation'
                 or 'land' or 'schools' or 'crime'. It's about all of the
                 above plus the perceptions of the market at a given time.
                 \_ Heh, while reading your reply I was going to say 'Detroit'
                    as an example where what I said isn't true.  But, yes, I
                    agree with your expanded version of what I said.  All those
                    things are closely linked.
                 \_ In most cities worldwide, housing in the city costs more
                    per square foot than in the suburbs. This is even true
                    in most large American cities, which were designed for
                    easy automobile access. There are exceptions of course,
                    but even in Detroit there are some very nice neighborhoods,
                    like Palmer Woods. I don't think that "the suburbs" was
                    ever considered more desirable than the city center in
                    Paris, London, Tokyo or Cairo.
                    \_ Really? Where did the royal family of France live?
                       Every city might have some affluent areas, but in
                       more than you might think the suburbs are
                       considered more desirable. It's only recently that
                       people have moved back to downtowns after years and
                       years of flight to the suburbs. "Price per square
                       foot" isn't a good metric to consider to evaluate
                       desirability even though it might seem so on the
                       surface. I think overall price needs to be considered.
                       What fraction of people with $20M to spend on a place
                       choose to buy in Manhattan versus The Hamptons, for
                       instance. The suburbs of many cities are quite affluent,
                       reaching or exceeding the prices for the best real
                       estate in the city. Consider San Diego. Downtown San
                       Diego does have a lot of expensive real estate, but the
                       most desirable properties are in La Jolla, Rancho
                       Santa Fe, and other suburbs. This is echoed more
                       often than not across the nation from Miami to even
                       SF, where the truly rich often opt to live in places
                       like Atherton and Ross instead of the city proper
                       (Pacific Heights notwithstanding).
                       \_ Short answer: I'd bet that anyone with a
                          business/job in NYC and $20M has a place there and
                          likely also a place in the Hamptons or some other
                          distant non-business location.  Cities and suburbs
                          both have good and bad areas.  In a city, there is
                          simply physically less space available so all prices
                          are likely to be higher than in the suburbs, all
                          else being equal.  I'm quite happily living in my
                          very suburban town in part because I know there is
                          no way I could buy a similar place in SF or anywhere
                          else closer to work for anything close to what I
                          paid for my house.  $/sqft counts.
                          \_ $/sqft is not enough information on its own.
                             People don't usually buy or rent residential
                             property on $/sqft terms, although for
                             commercial real estate it is common. Imagine
                             if it wasn't a case where you "couldn't
                             afford a similar place" but rather "a similar
                             place doesn't exist". You need to account for
                             variables other than cost and square footage.
                             \_ A similar place to my suburban home does not
                                exist in SF in that sense, true.  But to get
                                the same size yard, two car garage, space on
                                all sides of the structure, etc, would cost me
                                $1.5m to $2m or so when I last checked a few
                                years ago.  If I had that much money for
                                housing I'd leave the state.  And yes it
                                pretty much comes down to $/sqft.  That is the
                                easiest way to measure the price of a home
                                compared to other homes.  That is *the* major
                                factor for comping a house in an area.  You
                                don't comp against a different sized home.
                                \_ Your last sentence is exactly why
                                   $/sqft doesn't matter so much. You
                                   don't comp against a different sized
                                   home. Within a class of housing it
                                   makes sense to compare in $/sqft, but
                                   not otherwise. I would argue that you
                                   cannot comp a house in SF to one in
                                   Mill Valley based on $/sqft.
                                   \_ Why do you claim that? Do you really
                                      think there are no houses the same
                                      size as the houses in Mill Valley?
                                      If you really believe that, you don't
                                      really know much about the SF
                                      really know anything about the SF
                                      housing stock. Comp Forest Hill or
                                      St. Francis Wood vs. Mill Valley.
                                      \_ No, it's because other factors
                                         come into play. No appraiser
                                         would choose SF houses as comps
                                         for Mill Valley houses even if
                                         they were the same size.
                                         they were the same size. In fact,
                                         he might not compare two houses
                                         in Mill Valley by size alone. My
                                         appraisal teacher gave an example
                                         of a 6,000 sqft. house built by a
                                         retired couple that only had two
                                         bathrooms: a massive master bath
                                         and a powder room downstairs. The
                                         house appraised at much less per
                                         sqft. than most other houses the
                                         same size. This is an example why
                                         pricing per sqft. does not make
                                         sense for residential real
                                         estate. For warehouse space, say,
                                         it makes perfect sense.
                                         \_ So warehouse space is worth the
                                            same in Oakland as in Marin?
                                            same in Oakland as in Marin, per
                                            square foot?
                                            \_ I'm sure it's fairly close,
                                               except Oakland might cost
                                               more if it's associated
                                               with shipping but then
                                               that's a feature.
                                               \_ I would be astonished if that
                                                  were the case, since the land
                                                  is worth so much more in
                                                  Marin and rents are so much
                                                  higher there:
                                                  Oakland data from NAI:
                                                  Bulk warehouse rent - $5/sq ft
                                                  Industrial land price is
                                                  $300-750 k/acre
                                                  SF data from NAI:
                                                  Bulk warehouse rent - $9/sq ft
                                                  Land price - $1.6-6M/acre
                                                  Marin data from NAI:
                                                  Warehouse rent - $14/sq ft
                                                  Land - 800k-$1.3M
                                 \_ What is there about your suburban home
                                    that makes it so unique that there are
                                    no homes in SF similar? I bet that you
                                    are wrong. There are plenty of neighborhoods
                                    with big yards, quiet streets, clean, lots
                                    of parking, etc.
                                    are wrong. There are plenty of homes with
                                    big yards, quiet streets, lots of parking
                                    \_ Not at any price I would pay and the
                                       schools still suck and crime in the
                                       city is still higher, etc.  With enough
                                       money I can get almost anything, but
                                       why would I want to spend that much
                                       money to get something that is actively
                                       worse in important ways?
                                    \_ Maybe I need RV or boat parking,
                                       equestrian trails, or who knows
                                       what I find value in. Maybe being
                                       around smelly hippies all the time
                                       annoys me or I just don't like fog.
                       \_ You can't pick and choose specific wealthy suburban
                          enclaves and compare them to the neighboring city.
                          If you want to compare suburban San Diego to
                          San Diego proper, include National City and
                          Spring Valley in your calcualtions. San Diego
                          Spring Valley in your calculations. San Diego
                          is kind of a tough one anyway, since La Jolla
                          and Rancho Santa Fe are part of the city proper.
                          There are always going to be some wealthier and
                          some poorer areas in both cities and suburbs, but
                          overall the cities are going to tend to be
                          more desireable and therefore more expensive.
                          more desirable and therefore more expensive.
                          Didn't we already have the billionaire discussion
                          a few months back? Far more billionaires call
                          San Francisco home than the outlying suburbs, though
                          Atherton wins on a per capita basis. Consider that
                          there are 5X as many people living in the SF suburbs
                          than in SF proper though and you can see where
                          people with unlimited resources tend to congregate.
                          The per capita concentration in the Bay Area is
                          much higher in The City than in the suburbs overall,
                          though there are some very prestigious suburbs
                          that appeal to a minority of wealthy people.
                          There was no such thing as a "flight to the
                          suburbs" in most of the world. Do you really
                          think that Parisian suburbs were ever more
                          desireable than the city center? Tokyo? London?
                          desirable than the city center? Tokyo? London?
                          \_ To the royal family the Parisian suburbs were
                             more desirable, and they could live anywhere
                             they wanted. The Japanese royal family didn't
                             live in Tokyo either. You are correct about
                             London. You don't need to include National
                             City or Spring Valley. You just need to look
                             at the top end, because those are the people
                             with choices. Of course poorer people are
                             going to be in Riverside versus Los Angeles.
                             In that sense, proximity to a city does
                             influence value. However, my point is that in
                             most US cities it does get more and more
                             expensive, on average, as one gets closer to
                             the city but only to a point. Malibu is not
                             closer to the urban center than Hollywood.
                             Atherton is not closer to the urban center
                             than the Sunset District. You cannot just
                             assume that the main factor here is proximity
                             to an urban center. It's just *ONE* factor.
                             BTW, Rancho Santa Fe is not part of San Diego
                             proper. La Jolla is, but it's very clearly on
                             the outskirts of town. I would argue that the
                             most desirable property is that which is
                             convenient to a major urban center without
                             actually being in it, although this is
                             changing as more people are moving back to
                             the cities recently. I think with
                             telecommuting becoming more common the trend
                             will again reverse and people will leave the
                             city centers.
                            \_ Well, fundamentally, suburbs are boring.
                               They have had an image as either
                               a good place for raising a family, or perhaps
                               for people who want a quiet life, or want to
                               live closer to nature. Royalty and other famous
                               people or the ultra rich may have different
                               I've known a lot of people in the south bay
                               area who commute here from SF. Which is crazy.
                               But they do because it's a city they like to
                               live in. There are a lot more things to do
                               and people around. I think this is the
                               historical normal thing.
                               Bad city management policies are probably to
                               blame for the reverse situation. e.g. crime,
                               cleanliness, pollution, transit options and
                               usability, parks that aren't full of
                               hoodlums/homeless, housing programs that
                               backfire, etc.
                               \_ There's a reason so many people who get
                                  married and have kids move to the suburbs.
                                  Quieter, safer, cleaner, better schools,
                                  etc.  If you're at that stage of life you're
                                  not looking to party all weekend or come
                                  back at 3am from a night of clubbing with
                                  someone you didn't know an hour earlier.
                                  \_ There are plenty of SF neighborhoods
                                     that are clean, quiet, safe, have good
                                     schools, etc. Just none that are in the
                                     price range of your typical suburban
                                     commuter. And they are mostly full of
                                     middle aged executives with children.
                                     Maybe you would call them "suburbs
                                     within a city" but they really aren't.
                                     \_ Good schools?  So SF has ended their
                                        mandatory lottery system for schools
                                        and my kids would go to the nearest
                                        school like any real city?  And what
                                        would it cost me to send my kids across
                                        town for a randomly chosen school?
                                        \_ You can always send your kid to
                                           private school, if you can afford it.
                            \_ We don't really have any fundamental
                               disagreement, though I think your
                               characterization of The Versailles as part of
                               the Paris suburbs circa 1700 is off the mark.
                               It was more like a rural village before the
                               King showed up. If you don't think proximity
                               to jobs is the primary determinant to land
                               (and therefore home) value, what do you think
                               *is* the main factor? -PP
                               \_ What you are missing is that both the
                                  suburbs and city center are proximate
                                  enough that other variables begin to
                                  matter more. We aren't talking about LA
                                  versus Banning for the most part. We are
                                  talking about SF versus Lafayette, both
                                  of which are proximate enough that the
                                  proximity to jobs is not the prime factor
                                  and instead "quality of life" issues
                                  dominate. People in Marin, East Bay,
                                  Palo Alto, Los Gatos, and so on are close
                                  enough to high-paying jobs without having to
                                  live in the city proper. In fact, many
                                  of those jobs aren't even in the city proper.
                                  I would argue that most people who choose to
                                  live in SF do so because of lifestyle
                                  concerns and not proximity to jobs. In
                                  some ways SF is an affluent suburb of
                                  Silicon Valley.
                                  \_ As someone commuting from the suburbs to
                                     the Valley, no, they're not that
                                     proximate.  I chose to have a nicer home
                                     in exchange for 2 hours of driving every
                                     day.  It is not a trivial commute.  If
                                     pricing/quality/size was similar to where
                                     I am I wouldn't be where I am, I'd be 5
                                     minutes walk from work.
                                  \_ Palo Alto and Los Gatos are probably as
                                     close (in commute time) to as many high
                                     paying jobs as most of The City, but I
                                     don't think that is true for most of
                                     East Bay or Marin. Your last sentence
                                     is not true. Most SF residents work in
                                     The City. Do you have any evidence that
                                     more people commute from SF->SV than
                                     visa versa? Traffic on the 101 would
                                     indicate otherwise.
                                     \_ I bet a lot of people who live in
                                        Palo Alto work within a radius as
                                        large as SF, too. So what? In
                                        terms of population centers, SF is
                                        really more of a suburb than a
                                        real city.
                                        \_ A suburb to what city? Now you
                                           are just babbling. You might
                                           be able to make the claim that
                                           it is a small city or something
                                           but to claim that it is a suburb
                                           is just bizarre.
                                           \_ San Jose
                                              \_ I haven't been part of this
                                                 discussion, but anyone that
                                                 would assert that SF is a
                                                 suburb of San Jose is an
                                                 idiot.  Ditto for someone who
                                                 would assert that the French
                                                 court located in Versaille
                                                 because they preferred to
                                                 live in a suburb of Paris.
                                                 Conceptually, suburbs didn't
                                                 exist until the automobile
                                                 was invented. -dans
                                                 \_ Why did they live in
                                                    Versailles instead of
                                                    in the city then if
                                                    not because they
                                                    preferred it? I also
                                                    do not think San Jose
                                                    was a suburb of SF
                                                    historically, but the
                                                    way the two cities are
                                                    trending SJ will eventually
                                                    dwarf SF. It's already
                                                    true that the SJ suburbs
                                                    have almost grown all
                                                    the way to SF and not
                                                    vice-versa (SF suburbs
                                                    growing to SJ). SF is
                                                    a small city and will
                                                    eventually be Long
                                                    Beach to SJ's LA.
                                                    \_ My point was that
                                                       Versaille is not a
                                                       suburb of Paris.  As to
                                                       why the court set up
                                                       shop in Versaille, I'm
                                                       not really up on my
                                                       French history so I
                                                       can't say, and my hunch
                                                       is neither are you.
                                                       And, of course San Jose
                                                       will dwarf SF.  San
                                                       Jose has room to
                                                       expand, and San
                                                       Francisco is
                                                       constrained to a
                                                       peninsula.  Manhattan
                                                       is the wealthiest
                                                       burrough of New York
                                                       per capita (and
                                                       possibly overall), but
                                                       it's not going to grow
                                                       because it's an island.
                                                       I don't see Brooklyn or
                                                       Queens surpassing
                                                       Manhattan as the
                                                       cultural or monetary
                                                       epicenter of New York
                                                       city... ever.  You're
                                                       going to have a hard
                                                       time making the
                                                       argument that San
                                                       Jose's urban sprawl is
                                                       somehow going to
                                                       elevate it to the
                                                       importance of LA. -dans
                                                       \_ When I realized I was
                                                          arguing with an idiot,
                                                          I stopped. I though of
                                                          the obvious example
                                                          of Brooklyn, but why
                                                          waste my time? -PP
                                                       \_ Not only is
                                                          Brooklyn part of
                                                          NYC proper, but
                                                          it's clearly adjoined
                                                          to Manhattan.  You
                                                          should have used New
                                                          Jersey as an example.
                                                          However, San Jose is
                                                          not in a similar
                                                          situation. It and
                                                          its suburbs are
                                                          cities in their own
                                                          right. In many ways
                                                          the South Bay is more
                                                          relevant than SF
                                                          is and if that trend
                                                          continues SF will be
                                                          a wealthy enclave.
                                                          It is important to
                                                          note that the growth
                                                          in the Bay Area is
                                                          not radiating away
                                                          from SF. Instead, the
                                                          growth is radiating
                                                          from SJ. You might
                                                          have a point about
                                                          the limited land area
                                                          if areas close to SF,
                                                          but not in SF, were
                                                          growing. However,
                                                          that's not really the
                                                          case. Many of the
                                                          communities adjacent
                                                          to SF are not seeing
                                                          dense growth as a
                                                          result of proximity
                                                          to SF. In fact, the
                                                          population of SF is
                                                          fairly stagnant.
                                                          Fairly recently it
                                                          was actually
                                                          declining. SF
                                                          has enough land
                                                          to be twice its
                                                          population easily,
                                                          but it is fading
                                                          into irrelevancy.
                                                          I grant you that
                                                          it is far from
                                                          there yet, but
                                                          that is the trend.
                                                          BTW, Versailles
                                                          is 10.6 miles
                                                          from the center
                                                          of Paris. It's
                                                          clearly a suburb.
                                                          In fact, Wikipedia
                                                          says "Versailles...
                                                          is now a wealthy
                                                          suburb of Paris."
                                                          I only bring this up
                                                          to illustrate that
                                                          the allure of
                                                          suburban living is
                                                          not directly tied to
                                                          affordability. Lots
                                                          of people can afford
                                                          an equivalent place
                                                          (in terms of size)
                                                          in the city and still
                                                          choose not to live
                                                          there for other
                                                          reasons. It is
                                                          not always true
                                                          that a city is
                                                          more desirable (on
                                                          average) or more
                                                          expensive than its
                                                          suburbs. For decades
                                                          after the
                                                          construction of
                                                          highways downtown
                                                          was a place to avoid,
                                                          not a place to aspire
                                                          to live.
                                                          \_ 10.6 miles today
                                                             constitutes a
                                                             suburb, but before
                                                             the automobile
                                                             it was full-on
                                                             \_ Actually 21km
                                                                which is 13 mi,
                                                                but who's
                                                          \_ You're clearly an
                                                             idiot who's never
                                                             spent any serious
                                                             time in New York.
                                                             \_ I was born and
                                                                raised there
                                                                and trying to
                                                                say that one of
                                                                the five parts
                                                                of NYC isn't a
                                                                part of NYC is
                                                                just dumb.
                                                       \_ Amazing.  Not only
                                                          does your reading
                                                          comprehension suck,
                                                          but you're a liar
                                                          too!  AWESOME! -dans
2007/12/3-6 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48738 Activity:nil
12/3    2009 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid Prototype: Tokyo Test Drive
2007/11/12-16 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48615 Activity:low
11/12   Anyone can read Japanese here?  The mileage ratings for the Japanese
        Prius range from 27.0km/L to 35.5km/L, which translate to 64mpg to
        84mpg.  The 2007 US EPA rating for city is only 48mpg.  Is the Japanese
        city driving condition really that different?
        BTW, what's "10.15 mode" vs. "JC08 mode"?  Thanks.
        \_ Hybrid mileage is a hard thing to measure.  EPA recently had to
           totally change the hybrid rules to make the results more in line
           with real world usage.  Before that the Prius was a lot higher.
        \_ Just a guess: Japanese pollution emmissions are less stringent
           and that leads to an increase in fuel economy.
           \_ Before that the results for non-hybrids cars were a lot higher
        \_ Just a guess: Japanese pollution emissions are less stringent
           and that leads to an increase in fuel economy.  For example, I
           believe the Subaru WRX was not available in the US for a long
           time because of pollution emissions.
           \_ I follow changes to the Corolla engines (not so much with the
              Prius), and I know that Toyota moved to using direct injection
              in their Japanese engines in 2003, which results in better gas
              mileage.  They can't do this in the US because gasoline in the
              US contains far too much sulfur.  US gasoline content was slated
              \_ What are you talking about? My Lexus uses direct
                 injection and so do a lot of other Toyota cars.
                 \_ That was the reason cited *by Toyota* for not using
                    direct injection *in that engine* *at that time*.
                    Running gasoline with high sulfur content in a lean burn
                    direct injection engine leads to sulfur fouling of the
                    catalytic converter.  You could get around this with a
                    catalytic converter with a much more expensive catalyst
                    or by changing the fuel/air mix.  However, the point
                    holds: this is a concrete example of an engine technology
                    with better mileage in Japan than in the US because of
                    more stringent Japanese environmental regulation.
              to reduce the sulfur content in 2006 (from 300ppm to 30ppm),
              but this was postponed indefinitely under pressure from the oil
              companies.  I'd be surprised if that development wasn't in the
              Prius engine by now.  So yes, environmental restrictions are
              part of the difference in gas mileage between US and Japanese
              Toyota engines, but it's (at least in part) because of *more*
              stringent environmental requirements in Japan.  Incidentally,
              in addition to improving gas mileage, the switch to direct
              injection also increased horsepower and torque in the 2003
              \_ Cool info. What about Honda Accord engines? Why did they
                 change the engine in 2006/7? It sounds very differently
                 during startup, and revving.
        \_ I wish American car companies put this much engineering effort
           into their products, instead of figuring out how to sell the
           average consumer fucking 100 pound chromed cow ramming barriers
           on the front of their SUVs.  Seriously, who needs that shit?
              \_ Cool info. What about Honda Accord engines? Why did they
                 change the engine in 2006/7? It sounds very differently
                 during startup, and revving.

           \_ Men who haven't had good sex in over 10 years and need to
              overcompensate because otherwise they would have to admit
              that at half of the reason for that is them.  Just ask
              MR Women-don't-like-sex guy.
              \_ Yes, and the other half of the reason is that women don't
                 like sex, which you seem to ignore completely.
2007/11/12-16 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:48610 Activity:nil
11/12   The smart cars only get 33/40?
        \_ My 82 Datsun 720 diesel pickup beats that. -scottyg
           \_ My whimpy '87 Ford Escort Pony 4-seater used to get 38mpg
        \_ Under the standard American test environment (fat 300 pound
           man), yes.
        \_ That's worse than the Prius which seats 5 (or 4 if you are the
           standard American size.)
        \_ Check out the "What about safety?" section.  Can a car so tiny
           really be that safe???  BTW how come our NHTSA doesn't conduct
           crash tests at 50mph?
           \_ Because a 50mph crash is going to kill you.  Anyone who survives
              a wreck at those speeds is very lucky someone got them to a good
              hospital immediately and owes their lives to the first
              \_ "...... Schembri's team hauled in one that was smashed in the
                 rear in a 50-mph test. There was no intrusion into the
                 passenger compartment."
           \_ Generally, the larger a vehicle is, the more dangerous it is.
              \_ huh?  The heavier it is, the safer it is to the occupants.
                 It's not safer for the others on the road....
                 \_ The larger the vehicle, the more dangerous for others
                    and the more likely to get into an accident in the first
                    place since handling will be worse.  But once in an
                    accident, the heavier vehicle general is safer.  Of
                    course SUVs have more lax safety standards, so ...
               \_ The Smart Car weighs 2400 pounds, which isn't really all
                  that light. The Yaris weighs less and the Fit and Mini
                  about the same.
        \_ Smart cars are not bought for gas mileage but for the ability to
           park anywhere easily I think.
           \_ No, smart cars are imported for the tiny little Asian people
              who live in American cities (e.g. San Francisco). These are
              the same tiny little Asians who like to buy tiny little Hello
              Kitty toys and have tiny little yuppie Yorkshire Terriers.
              \_ Uhh dude, EUROPEAN.
2007/11/1-5 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48516 Activity:moderate
        "Each car costs about $15,000 to convert. The program is being funded
        by the California Energy Commission and the state Air Resources Board."
        God damn idiots.
        \_ Dude it's a test.  Those things cost more.  Moving to all
           electrical power means you have centralized power production.
           Which means less waste, less emissions and less spillage.  (If you
           fill up a tank of gas and spill a few drops that's as much
           pollution as burning the whole thing given our good smog
           regulations.)  In the scheme of things 10 cars at 15k each is
           nothing.  Start caring about stuff that matters.
           \_ laugh.. batteries are the dirtiest things on the planet
              it also takes a lot of energy to make batteries, to make
              eletricity, tons of nasty chemicals to make computer chips
              to control these things.
              \_ Can you point me to research on the effects of batteries
                 and chips in aggregate vs. the effects of fossil fuels in
                 aggregate?  It's a nice bit of devil's advocacy there, but
                 where's the beef? -dans
                 \_ Chips?  Or Crisps?  Or French Fries?
                    \_ Freedom Fries
           \_ That's a huge cost. There are much more cost-effective ways to
              reduce emissions. There's no reason to test this, it's nothing
              new: it's just using really expensive batteries. Total waste.
              It's 100 cars, not 10.
              How about just simply buying modern, cost-effective, efficient
              small cars with conventional diesel technology? Offer people
              high trade-in deals for their old polluting cars.
              \_ No, it's not a huge cost.  Seriously.  The tests are
                 expensive.  The batteries are expensive.  Tech goes down
                 in price.  And read the article.  10 cars.  100 families.
                 8 weeks each.
                 \_ Ok fine, I didn't see that. Still an utter waste of
                    effort if you ask me. What will we learn from this
                    program? Why should CA funds be used for this rather
                    than say Toyota's?
                    \_ Because it is in California's long range interest.
                       As I said, the money involved is pretty damn minor.
                       Start actually looking at what is spent where and
                       start caring about things that actually matter.
                       Let me give you a hint.  In general state funded
                       grants are a benefit to society.
                       \_ Really?  Where do I sign up for my grant?  I would
                          like to benefit society.
                          \_ You welcome to write all the grant applications
                             you want.  However you'd better have a good
                             explanation of what the money will be spent on,
                             as grant fraud is frowned upon.  Oh wait, you
                             are just talking out of your ass aren't you?
                             \_ Gee being frowned upon would be horrible.
                                Anyway, I'd like to hereby frown upon this
                                hybrid grant.
                                \_ I frown upon your frowning upon their
                                   frowning upon the general frowning upon.
                             \_ Grant proposal to give me lots of cash to
                                provide benefits to society: You (the gvt)
                                give me (the recipient) lots of other people's
                                money you don't care about (tax payers) to
                                live a life of luxury and slack.  Goal: one
                                less grumpy tax payer.  Improvement to society
                                is lessening of grumpiness among citizens. Why
                                do you think my grant proposal requires me to
                                commite fraud?  You're so cynical.
                                commit fraud?  You're so cynical.
        \_ for that same extra $15k you could buy a small electric NEV like
           say Xebra to use instead of the prius for 'short trips'.  And
           then still have the prius.
           \_ Yes, if the tech never gets cheaper than $15k it will never
              be a real solution.  However the tech WILL get cheaper than
           \_ or 100 cheap bikes!  And none of them would use any gas or
               electricity at all.  RIDE BIKE!!!
              \_ You're an anti-environmental terrorist!  If you truly cared
                 about the environment you wouldn't ride a bike.  You'd walk.
                 Do you have any idea how much energy went into designing,
                 marketing, producing, and shipping your bike?  Then there will
                 be repairs and the entire industry behind the spare parts
                 mill.  And then you'll eventually get a new one and the cycle
                 of death continues!  If you loved this planet you would walk.
                 \_ Are you walking bare-foot, or are you walking with shoes
                    and socks that also required energy for designing,
                    marketing, producing, and shipping?
                    \_ Duh, no of course not.  That's why your feet will get
                       tougher over a short period of time.  Before the modern
                       era you think cavemen wore Nike's?  Sheesh, get over
                       your big bad modern environmentally destructive self.
                       Ride Bike! if you want to rape the Earth.  USE FEET!
                       if you're at one with the planet's life energies.
                    \_ everyone already has shoes and clothing so it's
                    an overlap
                       \_ The more you walk, the faster the shoes wear out.
                          -- PP
                          \_ ditto with bikes but less parts to repair
                             \_ But which one costs less per mile?
                                \_ probably the bike, if you're trying to
                                   optimize for cost/resource saving.  A
                                   cheesy racing bike is expensive to maintain,
                                   but a good touring bike is quite cheap. -tom
                                   \_ earth hater.
                          \_ The more you live, the faster you will die.
                          \_ the more you drive, the less intelligent you are.
                                - Miller, the Repo Man.
        \_ has been building the same thing.
           \_ yes, but in Los Angeles.
           \_ yes, but ONLY in Los Angeles.
2007/10/27-29 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48461 Activity:low
10/26   Looks like the suburvan lifestyle is about get a lot more expensive:
        "Such pricing strategies could make a car five times more expensive
         to operate, Heminger said."
        \_ Well what do ya expect from a jew controlled liberal outlet.
           As for "... a new poll shows that many Bay Area residents are
           ready to take those steps [to live in smaller houses, higher
           gas taxes/tolls]." Sorry buba, but the general rule of thumb
           is that the more people save in N Cal, the more people will
           waste in S Cal. In another word, for every unit of Prius driven
           in N Cal, there will be a near linearly proportional number of
           Hummers that'll be driven in S Cal.
        \_ I don't know about road tolls, but higher gas taxes is good because
           it directly correlates to the amount of CO2 a car produces.  I live
           in Fremont.
           in Fremont and work in San Mateo.
2007/10/10-14 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48285 Activity:high
10/10   Is it just my imagination or it seems like the new Civic is bigger
        than my 1987 Accord?
        \_ I don't know, but my impression is that car models generally get
           bigger and bigger over time.  The 2008 Accord is classified as
           full-sized sedan.
           \_ Yeah, I've noticed that too.  I have a theory.
              1. People buy car for price and fuel effeciency.
              2. People like car, but give feed back they "wish it was larger"
              3. Company makes car larger.
              4. Repeat until car is discontinued because it no longer has 1.
              \_ Oh, and the only exception I know of is the discontinued
                 Celica, where the last model year one seemed smaller than the
                 1980 one which my dad has when I was a kid.  -- PP
              \_ Yeah, each model gets bigger and bigger but they introduce
                 new tiny cars to fill the gap (like the Fit).
              \_ 5. American people get fatter and fatter but want the
                    same car.
        \_ Honda's fucked. Civic Hybrid sucks. The new Accord's butt ugly.
           What else? Lame management and PM; the souped up Accord Hybrid
           is one of the many major fuck ups. What the hell were they
           thinking when they created the Accord Hybrid monster?
           \_ Diesels kick ass, now that we have better fuel standards I hope we see diesel
              \_ I hope we see diesel hybrid.
                 \_ I think the batteries and expense are not really worth it.
                    There's more to the picture than just max mpg.
                    \_ Diesel and electric engines are about as complementary
                       as you can imagine two technologies to be.  Diesels
                       are best at providing steady power at its optimal rpm
                       forever, electrics are good at variable loads, but lack
                       range.  Most heavy industrial equipment, along with
                       ships and locomotives uses some sort of diesel/electric
                       hybrid system.  The only thing stopping its adoption in
                       cars is cost.  Diesel/electric hybrid cars are already
                       being developed in Europe; Toyota is likely to develop
                       one as well now that they have access to Isuzu engines.
                       Diesels by themselves are very efficient, the only thing
                       preventing their wide adoption in the States is
                       brain-dead legislation.  Clean diesels compliant with
                       US emission standards will likely lose 15-20%
                       efficiency.  My opinion of hybrid technology has
                       improved considerably after doing some reading on the
                       subject. -- ilyas
                       \_ The best technology is a society that does not
                          waste resources (e.g. stop living in the suburbs)
                          \_ I have a better idea!  How about I live where
                             I want, and you go fuck yourself!
                             \_ I have an even better idea! How about I
                                kill all the selfish assholes who are
                                destroying our planet.
                                \_ Out of all the problems which beset this
                                   vale of tears we call Earth you want to
                                   hunt down suburb-dwellers?  You are fucking
                                   \_ At least we're not so retarded as to
                                      buy a fucking lame Accord Hybrid.
                                      Retard.                   !op
                                      \_ Yes, a Hummer would be so much
                                         better. Why trash anyone who is
                                         willing to support hybrid
                                         \_ Hybrid Humvee:
                                            350hp.  0-50mph in 7sec.  18mpg.
                                            Climbs 60% grade at 17mph and
                                            fords 5ft of water.
                                            \_ You are under the mistaken
                                               impression the only point of
                                               hybrids is reducing
                                               emissions and increasing
                                               efficiency.  You are wrong.
                                               You are also stupid.
                                               \_ What are the other reasons?
                                                  \_ Maybe you should read this
                                                     thread.  Just a thought.
                                               \_ Huh?  Where did you get that
                                                  impression?  The stealth mode
                                                  in the Hybrid Humvee above is
                                                  already one reason outside
                                                  the two you listed.  Another
                                                  one is that hybrid can
                                                  submerge under water
                                                  completely (not too deep, of
                                                  course, or else it floats)
                                                  w/o a snorkeling kit which
                                                  gives away its position. --PP
                       \_ If so, great. I'm just skeptical of hybrids. I feel
                          the tax breaks and HOV-lane access were bullshit.
                          \_ Well, using tax breaks and HOV-lanes for
                             efficient vehicles is bad enough, but what was
                             even worse was how, say, a Jetta TDI didn't
                             qualify for either while essentially matching
                             a Prius in terms of efficiency (and not having
                             the complicated manufacture).  Hamfisted government
                             efforts aside, I think hybrids are fundamentally
                             a good idea, for three reasons.  Firstly, hybrids
                             decouple the generation of power from consumption
                             of power.  This is fundamentally sound
                             engineering, which is why heavy industry is using
                             hybrid systems already without any environmental
                             considerations whatsoever.  Secondly, hybrids
                             replace multiple mechanical systems with
                             electronics, which, while more complicated than
                             mechanical systems, are also more reliable.
                             Priuses are bulletproof, despite being perhaps
                             the most complex mass produced passenger car
                             in history.  Finally there's the touted
                             incremental development path towards EV.
                             Personally, I think the only technology which
                             isn't ready is energy storage, and mass hybrids
                             encourage R&D in this area. -- ilyas
                          I have other reasons I'm sort of biased against
                          them and the practice of spending lots of money on
                          cars and treating cars as disposables to be kept only
                          a few years, but it's late and I'm not up to clearly
                          formulating these weird ideas.
                             \_ I think the jury is still out on how
                                bulletproof the Prius is.
                                \_ Um, the Prius has been out on the road
                                   since 1997. -- ilyas
                                   \_ And how long have most internal
                                      combustion engines been out on the
                                      road? 10 years is not really a long
                                      time. I'd give it 10 more years at
                                      least before making such a
                                \_ 2009 Prius: --!OP
                                   \_ That's a picture of the concept car, not
                                      of the prius.  The third gen prius looks
                                      almost the same as the second gen prius.
                                      In fact, toyota wanted to use lithium
                                      batteries in the third gen, but couldn't
                                      get around the safety issues.
                                      \_ Please scroll down to the text about
                                         the 2009 Prius.
                             \_ Yeah but if it's so great, it shouldn't need
                                special government incentives. The batteries
                                are indeed the main issue: I don't hear so much
                                about the cost, environmental impact, and
                                longevity of the batteries. I have admittedly
                                not studied the issue. I always liked the
                                flywheel storage concept but I guess it isn't
                                practical yet, maybe someday.
                                \_ I hate batteries and like flywheels too.
                                   Toyota does recycle/refurbish most batteries
                                   (it makes economic sense:  a lot of battery
                                   components are expensive and can be reused,
                                   and even nickel is getting expensive now).
                                \_ Government incentives kick-start the process.
                                   At least, that is the theory.
                             \_ Why is decoupling the generation of power from
                                consumption of power good?  I'd think there is
                                energy loss both when charging the batteries
                                with generated power, and when discharging the
                                batteries to do work.  Are these two steps
                                actaully very efficient?
                                \_ Because some engines are good at operating
                                   at variable loads, while others are good at
                                   operating at constant loads.  Any time
                                   there's a conversion, there's loss, of
                                   course.  But the trade off is (apparently)
                                   worth it, since you recover the losses by
                                   leaving diesels in their optimal regime
                                   all the time.  Most heavy industry setups
                                   don't even use batteries, but
                                   capacitors (or in some cases even
                                   flywheels).  Decoupling is an old idea --
                                   it's why we have powerplants. -- ilyas
                                \_ I think the main thing is combustion engines
                                   (esp. diesel) can be made to work very
                                   efficiently within certain narrow operating
                                   parameters (RPM etc). So generating it this
                                   way gets the most out of your dino juice.
                                   Battery storage and discharge must be pretty
                                   efficient compared to combustion losses.
                                   (or what ilyas said).
           \_ You forgot about the awesomness of the Fit.
        \_ Yes, it is a lot bigger. The Accord used to be a small car. The
           new Corolla is like a Camry, too.
        \_ '87 accord was a 'compact'.  Has grown to mid-size and now full-size
           (US version).  Civic went from "sub-compact" to "compact" around
           2000.  So yea, it probably is bigger.
2007/10/10-12 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48284 Activity:kinda low
10/10   the WSJ has a pretty horrible dot portrait on here
        \_ Maybe the subjects really are just that ugly.
        \_ It's so they can subtley manipulate the picture in order to
        \_ It's so they can subtly manipulate the picture in order to
           sway opinions.
        \_ Honda's fucked. Civic Hybrid sucks. The new Accord's butt ugly.
           What else? Lame management and PM; the souped up Accord Hybrid
           is one of the many major fuck ups. What the hell were they
           thinking when they created the Accord Hybrid monster?
           \_ Diesels kick ass, now that we have better fuel standards I hope we see diesel
           \_ That's subtle?
2007/10/10-12 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48281 Activity:nil
10/10   "Press Release: Betty T. Yee Says Gasoline Use Down for Both the
        Month of June and Second Quarter of 2007"
        Cool!  Whatever it was (carpooling, public transit, smaller cars,
        hybrid, ...), it's probably working.  I just hope that it's not
        because people are leaving the state.
        \_ It is because people are leaving the state. None of that
           hokey works as long people keep popping out kids. Keep
           smoking that bong if you think environmentalism works.
           \_ Do you honestly think that the population of the state
              of California is decreasing? Pass that bong this way,
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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