Science Space - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2005/9/9-13 [Science/Space] UID:39603 Activity:kinda low
9/9     Looking to buy an entry-level telescope in the ~$500 range.
        Any recommendations?
        \_ I have a Meade ETX-90 (the old non-computerized version).
           Excellent optics and very portable.
           Or if you like Celestrons, this isn't too bad -- wider aperture
           but a bit bulkier:
           At any rate, go for as large an aperture as you can afford.
           \_ second that.  It's not the size, it's the apature that matters.
        \_ I have a Celestron mirror telescope with a 910mm lens.  It's
           great for starting.  Look at for some info,
           but there are many other great sites you'll find with some basic
           googling.  It's not strictly "entry-level", but I would look for
           a scope that can fit a motor with usb controller port--it's great
           to be able to just point and click on objects on some planetarium
           program on a laptop and have the scope move there, as well as to
           have it keep tracking an object.  A Russian colleague who's teh
           telescope god recommended some Russian outfit that makes super high
           quality scopes for far less than Meade or Takahashi; I can find out
           if you're interested.  Most important:  get a really good bag for
           it so you can go into the field.  -John
           \_ John, you have too many expensive hobbies.
              By the way, are those big and cheap reflectors any good
              for beginners?
              \_ Urgh, it was a present from my girlfriend.  This one wasn't
                 "cheap" per se (about $1.5k, but relatively inexpensive as
                 far as good telescopes go--remember that, like cameras, sky's
                 the limit pricewise.)  Depends on what you mean by "good"--I
                 took some time to read up on lenses, cosmic objects, whatnot,
                 but I still just like going out and looking at Jupiter/Mars.
                 It's sort of important how much you intend to get into the
                 topic.  Maybe it's best to find someone knowledgeable to go
                 stargazing with--people with good telescopes are usually
                 pretty enthusiastic about getting people into it.  I'd ask
                 Prof. Filipenko (sp?) about some pointers, if he's still
                 around.  -John
                 \_ why would you ask Filipenko about a hobby telescope?
                 \_ Why would you ask Filipenko about a hobby telescope?
                    Do you ask Econ profs for tax/investment/real estate
                    \_ Are you being difficult on purpose?  I'm trying to be
                       informative.  Filipenko might know about clubs of
                       hobby astronomers in the BA who will probably be
                       happy to help you/op get into it--he seemed pretty
                       approachable about stuff like that.  Also, I just
                       remembered that I lived next to a guy in SF who was
                       part of a club that ground their own lenses and sold
                       really nice home-made telescopes--if you ask around,
                       maybe you can get a good deal on one of those.  -John
                    \_ Why wouldn't you ask an econ prof for that sort of
                       advice? Most econ profs I met were pretty well off
                       financially. It's their expertise. Likewise, asking
                       astronomers about telescopes makes a lot of sense.
                       What's your deal?
                       \- it make a lot more sense to ask a hobbyist group
                          in the telescope case. do you ask cs profs what
                          computer you should buy? dear prof katz, which
                          raid card do you recommend. econ profs may have
                          perfectly good answers but unless you have a
                          non-standard relationship with them, i dont think
                          it would be appropriate to make an appt with one
                          to talk about your portfolio. unless filipenko in
                          particular has somehow advertised "come talk to
                          me if you are interested in buying a telescope".
                          \_ I think if you're in his class it is perfectly
                             reasonable to ask him. I'm not discussing
                             the case where one makes a totally random
                             appointment with a prof they do not know. Maybe
                             a hobbyist group would give better answers.
                             Maybe not. I found astronomy profs at
                             Berkeley to be fantastically approachable in
                             addition to extremely bright. My astronomy
                             profs were some of the only profs I had at
                             Berkeley that gave the impression they loved
                             to teach and actually cared about students.
2005/9/6-7 [Health, Science/Space] UID:39531 Activity:nil
        "Microbiologist Paul Pearce found total sewage bacteria in a water
        sample from in New Orleans' Ninth Ward to be 45,000 times what would be
        considered safe for swimming in a pond or a lake. ... Pearce also found
        2.2 million parts per unit of human waste bacteria in the floodwater,
        which is off the charts."
        \_ nice to see the celtics forward has an off-season hobby
2005/8/28-29 [Science/Space] UID:39314 Activity:low
        Malasia to put man on the moon by 2020, with a budget of 25m.
        Eh, ok. Whatever. Are they high on opium?
        \_ I can put several men on the moon by 2020 for significantly
           less than that.  Note that, like the article, I didn't say
           anything about "alive" or "round trip".  -John
        \_ I guess they didn't mention anything about bring man back
           *FROM* the moon :p
        \_ I think they can do it if they relax some of the constraints,
           like getting the astronaut there alive.
           \_ They must have found a free rocket somewhere, because $25M
              won't even get the corpse of an astronaut there.
           \_ You don't get the dead body back either
2005/8/10-13 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:39088 Activity:low
8/10    What's the difference between P(A,B), P(A,B=true), P(A=true,B=true) and
        P(A|B)?  I'm trying to follow the ID thread below.  Thx.
        \_ P(A,B) is a table, with an entry for each possible value combinations
           of A and B.  The numbers in the table have to sum up to 1.  Each
           entry in the table corresponds to the probability of A and B
           attaining the indexing values.  P(A=true,B=true) is a number, the
           probability that both events happened.  P(A,B=true) is a table
           where each corresponds to some value of A, and means 'probability
           that A takes on that value and B is true.' P(A|B) = P(A,B)/P(B)
           where you divide consistent entries.  P(A|B) is a table with an
           entry for each possible combination of values of A and B, where the
           entry means 'the probability A attains the given indexing value
           given that the given indexing value of B was observed.'
           For now you can ignore what happens if A or B range over
           reals (or take some measure theory). -- ilyas
        \_ P(A,B) is a table, with an entry for each possible value
           combinations of A and B.  The numbers in the table have to sum up
           to 1.  Each entry in the table corresponds to the probability of
           A and B attaining the indexing values.  P(A=true,B=true) is a
           number, the probability that both events happened.  P(A,B=true)
           is a table where each corresponds to some value of A, and means
           'probability that A takes on that value and B is true.' P(A|B) =
           P(A,B)/P(B) where you divide consistent entries.  P(A|B) is a
           table with an entry for each possible combination of values of A
           and B, where the entry means 'the probability A attains the given
           indexing value given that the given indexing value of B was
           observed.'  For now you can ignore what happens if A or B range
           over reals (or take some measure theory). -- ilyas
           [ reformatted - 80x24 formatd ]
              \_ I was disappointed that the thread got stuck on the argument
                 over observational bias, but never questioned the underlying
                 assumption that an alteration in the universal constants
                 would have precluded life.  Life is a powerful phenominon,
                 and there are (at least) two independent instances of it on
                 Earth alone.  (e.g. The oxygen based life covering most of
                 the earth and oceans, plus the ferric/ferrous based life
                 found in the heat vents around Seven Mile Trench and
                 lots of mines and a river in Spain) -mel
                 \_ I was assuming life cannot arise without powerful energy
                    sources like stars which an alteration of constants would
                    likely not produce.   Why did I assume this?  Because
                    life is a 'low entropy' process, and such a process needs
                    a lot of energy coming down to maintain itself.
                    These 'two independent instances'
                    aren't really independent (they arose from a common
                    ancestor) they just use a different metabolic mechanism.
                    Many other metabolism types were used at various points
                    in Earth's life. -- ilyas
                    These 'two independent instances' aren't really
                    independent (they arose from a common ancestor) they
                    just use a different metabolic mechanism. Many other
                    metabolism types were used at various points in Earth's
                    life. -- ilyas
                    \_ My mistake in calling the ferrooxindans independent.
                       Obviously since they have DNA and a biological cell,
                       there is a common ancestor involved.  A better point I
                       should have made regarding them is that most people
                       would have trouble imagining life existing without
                       oxygen, but these bacteria do that just fine.  I
                       doubt that life in a more generic sense has all
                       that strict a set of requirements on what environmental
                       conditions under which SOMETHING will evolve. -mel
                       \_ Origins are a problem. -- ilyas
                 \_ URL?
                    \_ google "ferrooxidans" -mel
                    \- hello, it is true that is if you tweak certain numbers
                       you cannot have even matter [like without CP violation
                       you cannot explain why we dont have a lot of anti-
                       matter hanging around], while tweaking yet other
                       numbers would not allow nuclei to form, this would
                       would live in a soup of only elementary particles
                       (although possibly some rarely seen ones like the
                       OMEGA- made from SSS). However, there are some
                       free parameters which if tweaked slightly IN ISOLATION
                       we still could get a pretty similar universe in terms
                       of large structure. However it is possible something
                       like the water molecule would not exist. Water is not
                       important to cosmology but it is obviously important
                       to LIFE. If something like the FERMI CONSTANT were
                       different it would change the energy of the fundemantal
                       reactions in the stars which would in turn change their
                       geometry and power spectrum ... so again large con-
                       sequences for "life" and our solar system, but at
                       the large scale and with a "non-antropic eye" the
                       universe may not be too different [there is actually
                       more to the Fermi value, but that is beyond the scope
                       of this discussion]. One may also wish to explore
                       what is the fundamental cause of the PAULI EXCLUSION
                       PRINCIPLE of FERMIONS which allows for elements and
                       chemistry to exist via the AUFBAU PROCESS (I am not
                       very familar with this area of summersymmetry but if
                       the world were made out of the integral spin ss
                       cousins of the electron, photon etc, i believe the
                       universe would turn into one GIANT ATOM/BOSE CONDENSATE).
                       i believe speculating in terms of these free parameters
                       is about the only reasonably way to look at this.
                       you cant arbitrarily ask "what if there was no
                       conservation of mass-energy" ... you have to replace
                       it with something you can plug into equations. You
                       may wish to learn about the CKM MATRIX. ok tnx.
                       universe would turn into one GIANT ATOM/BOSE
                       CONDENSATE). i believe speculating in terms of these
                       free parameters is about the only reasonably way to
                       look at this. you cant arbitrarily ask "what if there
                       was no conservation of mass-energy" ... you have to
                       replace it with something you can plug into
                       equations. You may wish to learn about the CKM
                       MATRIX. ok tnx.
                       [ reformatted - 80x24 formatd ]
                       \_ Water is very important to life on Earth, but
                          in a universe where water didn't exist, there
                          is little reason to believe that no other
                          compound would supply a similar role as a
                          convenient solvent.  Removing basic rules like
                          Pauli Exclusion or Conservation of Energy is
                          outside the scope of what interests me.  As
                          for learning about the CKM Matrix, I still
                          recall the sequence up, down, strange, charm,
                          beauty and truth even a decade or two out of
                          my last Physics class.  The interestng question
                          to me is what the minimal set of requirements
                          are to generate an evolutionary system. -mel
                          \_ Did I say "up down" or "top bottom"?  Sigh.
                             This isn't my day for accuracy.  Time to go
                             to sleep  -mel
                             \- 1. top and bottom have won out over truth and
                                2. second, those 6 quarks dont form a sequence
                                    ... there are 3 (+2/3,-1/3) charge
                                   pairs falling into 3 mass generations.
                                   their masses are 1/3 of the free parameters
                                   in the std model.
                                3. speculations based on minor tweaks like
                                   if the earth were 10 percent larger or
                                   10% closer to the sun or had a greater
                                   tilt or weaker van allen belt etc may be
                                   perfectly interesting but those are not
                                   really cases of "the laws of physics being
                                   different" or "the nature of the universe
                                   being different" ... those are accidental
                                   details in a way things like the CKM matrix
                                   coefficients are not. when you are talking
                                   about something like the standard model,
                                   "emergent phenomena" is things like stars
                                   and elements and chemical phenomena ... it's
                                   still a long way from DNA.
                                4. "life" may have been able to overcome the
                                   consequnces of certain fundamental changes
                                   [like changing some masses would cause
                                   the list of stable isotopes to change, so
                                   "life" would have to pick some different
                                   chemical pathways, since the relative abun-
                                   dances would greatly shift], but there are
                                   other changes which are so massive, life
                                   obviously could not have evolved ... like
                                   if it were not possible to form stable
                                   nuclei -> no atoms -> no chemistry.
                                 5. my point was without some knowledge of
                                    "the standard model" you cant tell which
                                    "tweaks" are "surivivable" and which lead
                                    to a "boring universe" and which are some
                                    where in between.
                       chemistry to exist via the AUFBAU PROCESS. ok tnx.
2005/8/10-11 [Science/Space] UID:39077 Activity:nil
8/9     Martian Crater w/ a block of ice in it:
        \_ Looks like a sand dollar.
2005/8/7-11 [Science/Space, Computer/HW/Memory] UID:39034 Activity:nil
8/7     The Space Shuttle still uses floppy disks. Would somebody please
        tell them how unreliable floppies are. Buy them USB flash drives!
        \- high density electronics and media may be more suspectible
           to instability due to thermal noise or radiation. lbl has/had
           one of the faciltiies for "space certifications" for electronics.
        \_ Another question is: why is anything on removable media when
           everything happens within the shuttle and there is nowhere else to
           \_ networks can go down, they have multiple points of failure
              - what do you do then?
              \_ I see.
        \_ NASA is intentionally slow to adopt new technology for use on
           the orbiters.  In addition to testing the living hell out of
           particular systems themselves, they also want the general
           technology to have seen widespread use enough to have flushed
           out any problems.  Note that other thread in the motd at the
           moment about motherboards with bad capacitors, and consider that
           it's probably a good thing that the orbiters' avionics are ugraded
           less frequently than the average sodan's computer.  Remember that
           the shuttle program started in the seventies, and that floppies
           actually represent an *upgrade*.  For the poster who asked why
           anything is on removable media, what else would you suggest?
           Hard drives don't perform well under a lot of acceleration, and
           can be damaged easily by vibration (such as during launch and
           reentry).  Many nonvolatile memory technologies have come and gone
           over the life of the shuttle program without being adopted.  When
           they started, the computers available simply didn't have enough
           memory and they had to load things in from tapes over the course
           of a mission.  In a system as complex as the shuttle, there's
           a tremendous ripple effect to changing the flight computers, both
           to the physical systems and the procedures and training for all
           personnel involved.  Given the risks, there's a lot to be said for
           not fixing it if that aspect of the shuttle isn't broken.
2005/8/3-4 [Science/Space] UID:38963 Activity:kinda low
8/3     If the Space Shuttle can re-enter atmosphere safely after the two gap
        filler are removed, why were the gap fillers installed in the first
        \_ If a 747 can fly with 3 engines, why do they install 4?
           You over-engineer things like that.  (Although it has not been
           shown that the shuttle can re-enter without the gap filler).  -tom
        \_ The purpose of the gap filler may be to protect against vibration on
           lift off, hence once they're in orbit they don't matter.  But then I
           actually have no idea why they're there, and you probably don't
           \_ Of course I don't.  That's why I'm asking.
           \_ Don't forget that the airframe expands and contracts much more
              than the tiles.  The tiles are attached to the airframe.
              Therefore, you need gaps between the tiles.  What goes in
              between the gaps.  Gap filluhs!
              \_ We need gaps, then we need gap fillers to eliminate the gaps.
                 Hmmm ...... :-)
                 \_ You mean we have a gap-filler gap?
                    \_ Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a
                       whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.
                    \_ No big deal.  Just apply some gap-filler-gap filler.
                    \_ The Russians have more teenagers w/ poor taste
                       in clothes??
        \_ Some more gap-filler info:
2005/7/31-8/2 [Science/Space] UID:38899 Activity:nil
7/31    New "planet" found in Kuiper belt:
        \_ They've been talking about this planet since I've been
           in high school (and if not this one, another one).
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2005/7/26-27 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38829 Activity:nil
7/26    So what do ppl think re: NASA?
        1) Stick with shuttle program?
        2) Scrap the shuttle, move to the next type of launch vehicle
        3) We should build a moon base
        4) Manned-Mars Ho!
        5) IIS - make it an orbital station for whatever launch vehicle
           we choose for (2).
        \_ Can't do #3 or #4 without #2. #1 is stupid. Therefore, #2.
           \_ Agreed.  -mice
                \_ We have to go ask our asian lenders for more lunch money
                   because we already spent our allowance for the next 5
                   centuries on the Iraq invasion.
                   \_ Nah -- we just allocate some of that money for starting
                      a war with our debtors, then after bombing them back
                      into the Third Age, we rebuild their country with
                      Americanized values and declare them either the 51st
                      state, or a 'Protectorate' with symbolic representation
                      in the senate.
        \_ Scrap NASA and start over, imo.  This gold-plating and closed
           competition between Lockheed and Boeing has to stop. -- ilyas
           \- A nice line I heard was "pentagon procurement is one of the
              last bastions of stalinism". where in russia are you from?
              \_ Odessa.  Interestingly, Odessa is considered the 'city of
                 humor' in Russia.  It was a largely jewish city, and there
                 is a 'certain culture' to it.  It's a lot like a russian
                 version of San Francisco, I would say. -- ilyas
                 \_ here's some pics:  --!ilyas
                 \_ So let me get this right. You're not a Jew, but you're
                    almost a Jew because of exposure with Jews? If that's
                    the case, I will start respecting you a bit.
                                -not a jew but totally worship them
                    \_ I am not russian either.  I have no nation.  You would
                       be interested to know that during the formation of the
                       state of Israel, they considered anybody who considered
                       themselves a Jew to be a Jew (for the purposes of
                       immigration). -- ilyas
                       \_ In other words, you too can be a Jew, Jew
                          worshipper guy!
2005/7/25-27 [Science/Space] UID:38817 Activity:nil
7/25    It's been pretty hot lately and I had this crazy idea to make a
        living quarter cooler without using a lot of electricity. Some
        properties have fountains or swimming pools. How about repiping them
        with a pump so that they'd flow from the roof (like a building
        that is always being rained on) to cool the entire building?
        It'll use some water, but I'm sure it's a lot cheaper than AC.
        \_ A good idea, and not a new one.
           \_ URL please?
              \_ Google for "swamp cooler"
              \_ Google^H^H^H^H^H^HYahoo! for "swamp cooler"
                 \_ How the hell do you feel cool when you're swamped with
                    high humidity? It's just oxymoron.
        \_ The best system is probably very good insulation, reflective/white
           buildings with control of indoor sunshine, opening up to cool
           at night, and possibly some floor-based cooling.
           \_ Most ordinary houses have windows that can be opened to cool at
              night before you go to sleep.  I do that to keep my house not
              as hot during daytime for my parent.
        \_ I have another idea.  Buy a lot of blue ice, or fill up a lot of
           used bottles with water or whatever that has a high specific heat
           capacity.  Put them on a big cart.  Push it out to the backyard in
           the evening.  Push it back indoor in the morning and blow on it with
           a small fan.  It won't work as well as AC, but it's more
           enviromentally friendly and costs less.  If using bottles, lots of
           small bottles will work better than big 5-gallon ones.
2005/7/21-22 [Science/Space] UID:38748 Activity:low
        Map of the moon landings
        \_ I dig the cheese
           \_ Ill.
        \_ QTVR panoramas of the moon:
2005/7/20 [Science/Space, Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:38733 Activity:nil
7/20    Own your own death star sub-woofer: (
        \_ Your URI is broken.  Try
           \_ seems to work for me. anyway full url is:
                  \_ It failed for me in Opera 8, Firefox 1.0.6, and even IE 6.
2005/7/20-22 [Science/Space] UID:38731 Activity:nil
7/20    That's no moon: [ebay]
        \_ Do not be too proud of this technological terror you've created
        \_ 300W?  Good for masturbation.
2005/7/10-11 [Science/Space] UID:38508 Activity:insanely high
7/10    Wanted to revive this:
        \_ Why??!!

        No it's not, it tells us how much water beef takes.  It also takes
        more of many other resources such as fuel and space. Why is
        disingenuous to look at the amount of resources a certain diet
        takes?  Meat eating simply uses way more resources. Now whether or
        not that matters to you is a different issue, isn't it?
        \_ The point here is that water usage is not defined in a
           vacuum. Looking at how much water a cow drinks versus how much
           water a tree needs is not too informative in itself. So much more
           is involved in growing, preparing, transporting, and storing the
           foods. Is that gallons/pound number derived by adding in how many
           gallons it takes to grow feed or is it just what the cow drinks?
           How much of that water is taken of the water cycle and in what
        No it's not, it tells us how much water
        beef takes.  It also takes more of many
        other resources such as fuel and space.
        Why is disingenuous to look at the amount
        of resources a certain diet takes?  Meat
        eating simply uses way more resources.
        Now whether or not that matters to you
        is a different issue, isn't it?
        \_ The point here is that water
           usage is not defined in a vacuum.
           Looking at how much water a cow
           drinks versus how much water a tree
           needs is not too informative in
           itself. So much more is involved in
           growing, preparing, transporting,
           and storing the foods. Is that
           gallons/pound number derived by adding
           in how many gallons it takes to grow
           feed or is it just what the cow
           drinks? How much of that water is
           taken of the water cycle and in what
           way? What other factors are involved?
           \_ Instead of feeding the grain to a cow for 4 years, you could
              feed it to a person.  Thus you can either feed a bunch of cows
              \_ Yes and you could take all the rich peoples' money and give it
                 to the poor and everybody would be equal and happy and all
                 inequality in the world would be done away with.  That said, I
                 was under the strong impression that there was more than
                 enough food to go around, but that idiotic trade policies
                 and distribution inefficiencies kept it from even going on the
                 market.  Anyway, just kill yourself and stop wasting natural
                 resources--we'll see to it that you're composted in an eco-
                 friendly manner.  Remember to not use a gun, though--lead is
                 a pollutant.  -John
              or a bunch of people, or feed some cows to a few people.  I
              cannot believe anyone is actually challenging these common sense
              results.  Of course the amount of water used to grow the feed
              is added to the final tally.  Your tone reminds me of President
              Bush and "climate change" ... No matter how many peer reviewed
              studies come out, we need to do more research to be absolutely
              sure our decision are based on "science"
              \_ I personally am not sure human activity is the chief cause
                 of global warming. -- ilyas
                 \_ What is your alternative hypothesis?
                    \_ The chief cause could be the natural climate cycle,
                       which is still fairly poorly understood.  -- ilyas
                       \_ And purple-haired monkeys could fly out of your butt,
                          but it's probably not very likely.
                       \_ Thank you for totally proving my point.
                          \_ "Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth's
                              atmosphere as a result of human activities,
                              causing surface air temperatures and subsurface
                              ocean temperatures to rise. Temperatures are,
                              in fact, rising. The changes observed over the
                              last several decades are likely mostly due to
                              human activities, but we cannot rule out that
                              some significant part of these changes are also
                              a reflection of natural variability."  See, eric,
                              a real scientist states things very carefully,
                              because he is interested in the truth.
                              You are just interested in scoring political
                              points on the motd. -- ilyas
                                \_ "Real scientists" agree that global warming
                                   is most likely caused by human activities,
                                   yes.  There is no 100% certainty.  The
                                   problem arrives when people say "well since
                                   we can't know for sure we better just not
                                   do anything about it" -- while the planet
                                   slowly turns into Venus.
                                   \_ See, I think you are overstating your
                                      case.  There may be consensus that
                                      warming within the last X years was,
                                      more likely than not, caused more by
                                      human activity than anything else, but
                                   \_ I think you are overstating your
                                      case.  There is also another matter.
                                      Even if it is in fact the case that
                                      human activity is the major cause of
                                      global warming, and even if global
                                      warming is difficult to reverse and
                                      dangerous, and even if the natural
                                      cooling cycle will not come to our
                                      rescue, it _still_ does not necessarily
                                      imply we ought to drastically reduce
                                      green house gas emissions.  This is
                                      simply because we are cutting into
                                      industrial and economic development,
                                      which may lead to a better solution
                                      to the problem.  This is similar to the
                                      proverbial 'horse shit choking London'
                                      problem.  I would be curious to hear
                                      from motd environmentalists on what
                                      their ideal approach to dealing with
                                      global warming (assuming worst case
                                      scenario about its causes and effects)
                                      would be (if they were king of the
                                      world, etc). -- ilyas
                                      \_ really, solo commute driving
                                         may lead to a better solution to
                                         global warming?
                                         \_ I think it was obvious I was
                                            talking about Kyoto, but thanks
                                            for the red herring anyways.
                                              -- ilyas
2005/7/8-10 [Science/Space, Recreation/Food] UID:38485 Activity:high
7/8     Cut global warming by becoming vegetarian:
        \_ Cut global warming with eco-friendly investments:
           \_ How does one know that the money we pay on purchasing these
              passes actually goes to projects that reduce pollution, and these
              projects actually have big enough of an impact to offset our
              cars' pollutant output?
              \_ Good question, and I don't have a good answer. I suppose you
                 could argue that you have a contract with them, so they're
                 obligated to follow-through.
        \_ Cut global warming by turning off the water when you apply soap in
           the middle of a shower.  This saves water as well as the energy
           needed to heat it.
           \_ Not eating 1 pound of western beef saves more water than not
              showering for 1 year, assuming 7 minute showers once per day
              with a low flow shower head.  "Raising one cow uses enough
              water to float a destroyer"
              \_ Just shooting yourself as soon as possible saves more water
                 and energy and cute little bacteria that you'd otherwise
                 spend your life stompin' on than you can possibly imagine.
                 I'll take mine medium rare, thanks.  -John
              \_ Uh, this is really poorly phrased.  Not eating 1 pound of
                 beef doesn't save anything.  That cow is still raised.
                 \_ Have you ever heard of supply & demand?  Buying and
                    tossing one pound of beef doesn't do anything, true.
                    However, choosing to purchase less beef directly affects
                    demand, which will in turn affect supply.
              \_ Are you serious???  Reference please?  Thx.
                 \_ John Robbins Food Revolution, which had extensive
                    footnotes in that section.  Note that it takes a lot
                    more water to raise cattle in the arid west, which is
                    why I said *western beef*.  Here is a webpage that
                    discusses the topic (took me about 5 seconds with google):
                    Another one:
                    Oh look more:
                    Note that producing beef in arid climates takes more
                    than 2500 gallons/pound.
              \_ Don't eat fruits either. Raising one plum tree uses
                 enough water to float a destroyer. We should eat only
                 \_ Whatever
                    \_ Whatever indeed. Focus on one aspect of farming
                       (cattle) and ignore the rest.
                       \_ I think the pp was focusing on the fact that
                          raising 1 pound of meat consumes a lot more
                          water than raising 1 pound of fruit/vegetable:
                          \_ Ah yes this is the exact reference
                       \_ The issue is not whether farming uses water.
                          Raising beef just uses orders of magnitude more
                          water for the same nutrional content.  So one
                          water for the same nutritional content.  So one
                          way to be environmental is not to eat beef, simple.
                          \_ Right. Another way is to eat only cactus and
                             not water-loving plants like rice and fruit.
                             Or, like John said, shoot yourself.
                             \_ can you be more disengenous? from the above
                                link: water req'd for 1 lb. of apples: 49
                                that's two orders of magnitude
                                less than the amt. req'd for beef.  Eating
                                cactus vs. apples counts for nothing compared
                                to the simple act of not eating beef. -!pp, !op
                                \_ How much protein is in those apples?
                                   If you want to grow, say, soy beans
                                   it take 250 gallons per pound. I find
                                   all of these sorts of arguments
                                   disingenuous. Eat healthy. That means
                                   some meat (but not a lot) in the diet.
                                   Avoiding 1 lb of beef per week (say)
                                   to substitute with 1 lb of apples is
                                   beyond stupid. There are other factors,
                                   too, like cooking, transportation (beef
                                   needs freezing), pesticides, and so on.
                                   Framing in terms of gallons/pound is
                                   meaningless and idiotic.
                                   \_ No it's not, it tells us how much water
                                      beef takes.  It also takes more of many
                                      other resources such as fuel and space.
                                      Why is disingenuous to look at the amount
                                      of resources a certain diet takes?  Meat
                                      eating simply uses way more resources.
                                      Now whether or not that matters to you
                                      is a different issue, isn't it?
                                      \_ The point here is that water
                                         usage is not defined in a vacuum.
                                         Looking at how much water a cow
                                         drinks versus how much water a tree
                                         needs is not too informative in
                                         itself. So much more is involved in
                                         growing, preparing, transporting,
                                         and storing the foods. Is that
                                         gallons/pound number derived by adding
                                         in how many gallons it takes to grow
                                         feed or is it just what the cow
                                         drinks? How much of that water is
                                         taken of the water cycle and in what
                                         way? What other factors are involved?
                                   \_ strawman. What you find disingenuous is
                                      not a claim anyone made.  It's idiotic
                                      to replace one lb. of beef w/ one lb. of
                                      apples.  The gallons/apple was made to
                                      refute above trolls nonsense about fruit
                                      \_ What do you mean? If you don't eat
                                           fruit you can save a lot of water.
                                   \_ Then replace one pound of beef with
                                      beans, or whatever combination of
                                        non-MEAT vegetables/fruits diet you
                                           desire.  None of them will use as
                                           much water to create the same
                                      desire.  None of them will use remotely
                                      as much water to create the same
                                      nutrition, and you know that.
                                      \_ I am not sure 'energy' = 'nutrition'.
                                         Maybe if we were herbivores it would
                                         make more sense. There are indeed
                                         lots of drawbacks to farming, fishing,
                                         and so on. Looking at water use is
                                         some sort of feel-good bullshit.
                                         I can say it takes no (fresh) water to
                                         raise a tuna. Therefore eat only
                                         tuna and no apples.
                      \_  Don't forget all the water that is required to
                          maintain a healthy green lawn that no one ever
                             The average lawn uses 125 g/1000 sq. ft on a hot,
                             summer day.  That's .8 oz. of beef/1000 sq. ft
                             during peak summer weather. Certainly, it helps
                             to reduce lawn watering, but compared to eating
                             beef, it's peanuts.
                             \_ How much water do spotted owls waste?
        \_ 1) Read an excerpt or two from the jungle, or watch a couple
              shorts about animal treatment, esp. re: antibiotics, hormones,
           2) Next time you purchase raw meat at the grocers, look at the
              meat, and remember (1) above.
           3) Go and buy some vegetables.  -!op
             \_ How many rabbits are chopped up in the combine harvesters?
                Better avoid bread.
                \_ When the other side can come up only with pedantic crap,
                   that's a safe bet you've won the argument.
        \_ So saying "you should avoid X to conserve Y" is a poor long-term
           plan: if water is actually a scarce resource, it should be expensive,
           and thus the beef should be expensive.  If there's some reason it
           isn't (government subsidies, perhaps?), the subsidies should end.
           There's no reason the free market can't solve this problem... if
           there is one.  If there isn't, who cares how "wasteful" meat
           production is?  People aren't starving in the world because the US
           doesn't produce enough food.
2005/6/21-25 [Science/Space, Reference/Religion, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:38234 Activity:kinda low
6/21    What is the most overrated book you have read?
        The #1 overrated book of ALL TIME is: ZatAoMM
            \- BTW, many of the 1star AMAZONG reviews are enjoyable
               to read and are small compnesation for this ass book.
               Notice the two themes: 1. the author is *actually*
               insane 2. feel sorry for the son.
        \_ anything by Jack Welch
        \_ The Bible.  Delete this again and the thread dies.
        \_ Beloved by Morrison
        \_ The Bible.  I still don't understand why, given that the whole thing
           is translated anyway, the English versions always have to have such
           awkward language and style.
        \_ Beloved by Morrison
           \_ I really enjoyed it. --scotsman
        \_ Cyptonomicon.  God that book sucked. -aspo
           \_ Yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who hated that book.  Is
              everything by Stepherson that bad?  A friend thinks I should
              read Snow Crash. -jrleek
              \_ I think everyone who went to Cal should read The Big U.
                 It's a satire of American college life.  I think Stephenson
                 went to BU, but a lot of the stuff is amazingly familiar.
              \_ snow crash wasn't too bad.
                 \_ seconded
                        \_ snow crash is good.  Zodiac is short and
                           \_ Zodiac's his only book with an acutal ending.
        \_ The Name of the (stinking) Rose.  Blah blah blah blah blah -- SHUT
           UP ALREADY AND TELL A STORY.  Whew.  Glad to get that off my chest.
           \_ What, you don't like vicissitudes?
        \_ Atlas Shrugged
        \_ Anything by Ann Coulter
        \_ The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Heinlein
        \_ The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress
        \_ SICP. (ok, just kidding)
        \_ Dianetics.
        \_ The New Testament.  But the old testament is wicked cool.
        \_ Design Patterns
        \_ Abelson & Sussman.  Ugh.  -John
           \_ E_TOOSHORT
        \_ Design Patterns
        \_ The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. Look, fuckhead who keeps deleting
           this, I am entitled to my opinion. If you don't agree then say
           why, don't just censor me.
              \_ Trouble with the motd is you are interacting with some
              serious idiots. Either you get censored repeatedly or you
              can't even delete some 4-day old dead threads without them
              getting restored. Maybe by the same idiot.
        \_ The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.
           \_ Stupid additions were deleted.  You do not understand the
              question, although not as badly as the people answering
              "The Bible" or "Anne Coulter".  I had hoped you would have
              realized that after a couple of selective deletions, but
              it looks like you are beyond being reached.
2005/5/31-6/1 [Science/Space] UID:37901 Activity:insanely high
5/31    \_ Um.  The central claim that life cannot arise by a blind process is
           falsifiable.  If Darwinists succeed in creating a plausible (or
           better yet, reproducible) story for life's creation that will
           falsify the claim.  The argument that something that doesn't make
           experimentally falsifiable claims is not science is extremely weak.
           It's certainly true, but many things that aren't science make
           falsifiable claims.  -- ilyas
           \_ Is it really ilyas?  I mean, it may be theoretically, but not
              practically.  I maintain my assertion that ID has not produced
              any prediction that can be tested.  Since you've not produced a
              definition of what "life" constitutes, your "falsifiable"
              prediction can't actually be tested (though you seem to believe
              that RNA alone isn't "life").  -emarkp
              \_ I don't really understand.  If someone creates a bacterium
                 in a tube using a 'mechanical process' that would falsify
                 the claim in a practical way that seems reasonable to me.
                 I am not prepared to address the complex question of what
                 life is, but for the purposes of this discussion we can take
                 'alive' to mean 'a working reproductive cell, a bacterium.'
                 The latter is certainly a subset of the former.
                 What do you mean by falsifiable, then?  By the way, these kinds
                 of negative falsifiable claims are very common in AI.
                 For instance 'a computer program will never beat a human
                 world chess champion.' -- ilyas
                 \_ Modern bacteria are themselves the product of billions of
                    years of evolution. I don't think it's reasonable to expect
                    to put some stuff in a tube, shake it around etc., and get
                    bacteria. I personally think it's quite likely that life is
                    very highly improbable. In any event, just a couple hundred
                    years ago people still believed in spontaneous generation.
                    In general I find it absurd when people's response to
                    something they don't understand is invoking the
                    supernatural. It doesn't answer the underlying question
                    anyway; if evolution is a problem because it doesn't fully
                    explain the first bacteria, then ID is a problem because it
                    doesn't explain the intelligence.
                    \_ [nevermind]
                    \_ This is begging the question.  If the bacteria are too
                       complex to be produced directly, produce an intermediate
                       step, and then construct a story for how you get a
                       sequence of intermediate steps that would produce,
                       over time, and in a completely mechanical way, a working
                       bacterium.  There is currently no such story, but if
                       such a story were created (by logical argument, computer
                       simulation, whatever) then that would falsify the ID
                       claim.  This is difficult, but not impractical (serious
                       scientists are working on this very problem).  I still
                       don't really understand your objections.  Also, for the
                       47th time, I am not defending ID as either a credible
                       scientific movement nor an alternative to darwinian
                       biology. -- ilyas
                       \_ Wrong, as usual.  A line of reasoning doesn't
                          falsify ID; just because you can come up with a
                          way that something could have happened doesn't mean
                          that it happened that way.  -tom
                          \_ You seem to be confusing 'cannot' with 'did not.'
                             It's certainly possible to falsify 'cannot.'  It
                             may be possible to falsify 'did not.' -- ilyas
                          \_ Correct, but it still puts paid to ID's basic
                             tenet that 'x must have happened because of y
                             because x is so complex that it couldn't have
                             happened any other way.'  By creating a plausible
                             line of reasoning (in this case, how a bacterium
                             could evolve naturally) you debunk 'y' as a root
                             cause.  Remember "any sufficiently advanced
                             science is indistinguishable from magic"?  Once
                             you empirically explain a phaenomenon, you place
                             it into the realm of science and completely
                             remove all the superstitious voodoo crap.  -John
                          \_ that sounds like something a LIBERAL would say!
                       \_ So, we can't reconcile quantum mechanics with GR.
                          Does that mean they're both false?
                       \_ You made the claim that ID had falsifiable
                          predictions. -emarkp
                       \_ Well, so ID is not verifiable but the claim is
                          falsifiable. How many other scientific realms
                          work like this? I'm not aware of any. It does not
                          seem to fall under the realm of the scientific
                          method. It's just an assertion... even if people
                          figure out a chain of events leading to replicating
                          pre-rna/rna/proteins etc. then ID can still claim
                          this stuff was "designed" to happen.
                          \_ I am not sure what you mean by 'verifiable,' but
                             no empirical theory can be definitely concluded to
                             be true, including relativity, evolution, etc.
                             This is why falsifiability is important -- a theory
                             is deemed stronger if it can withstand repeated
                             attempts to falsify its claims.  Evolution itself
                             had to be modified multiple times in the face of
                             legidimate (partial) falsifications.  To repeat
                             myself yet again, I am not defending ID as a
                             scientific movement.  In response to your last
                             sentence, I think the main ID claim as I understand
                             it has some 'teeth,' and Darwinists would be wise
                             to neither ignore nor attempt to discredit its
                             source. -- ilyas
                             \_ They can't be definitely concluded true but
                                they can be experimentally verified, e.g.
                                relativity predicts X we test for X, natural
                                selection being induced, etc. ID differs in
                                this respect. That main claim about life
                                being unable to arise without intelligent
                                design seems a different sort of beast. Not
                                the sort of thing one could really teach in
                                any substantive fashion, other than merely
                                mentioning it as a belief. It just says that
                                until we have "hard" verifiable theory about
                                exactly how cells arose, then we have to
                                talk about the "theory" that this was
                                impossible. I dunno, I'll go ahead and ignore.
                                \_ See below.  I think the difference is in
                                   degree, not kind.  Claims about the origin
                                   of life are more akin to cosmology or string
                                   theory claims -- falsifiable, but requiring
                                   immense resources for appropriate experiments
                                   to be conducted.  This does not invalidate
                                   the claims, it just shows how important they
                                   are. -- ilyas
                 \_ ^ what he said.  I suspect you know what I mean by
                    "falsifiable" -- a truth claim that can be proven false by
                    a test.  However, just because a hypothetical truth
                    statement can be falsified it doesn't mean it's useful or
                    seriously admissible.  When ID can suggest an experiement
                    that doesn't take an infinite amount of time to attempt to
                    falsify (defining terms and initial conditions, etc.) then
                    it should be addressed.  Not before. -emarkp
                 \_ Another thought: if the claim is that life can't arise by
                    chance, I don't see how creating a 'living organism' in the
                    lab would disprove that.  It would have to arise by chance,
                    wouldn't it? -emarkp
                    \_ That's a little obtuse, sorry.  Miller's experiment was
                       famous precisely because he created laboratory conditions
                       which reasonably duplicated conditions that could have
                       arisen by chance during early Earth's history. -- ilyas
                       \_ yeah, I'm sure the inability to create life by random
                          chance in a laboratory has great relevance to
                          whether it was possible to create life by random
                          chance on a sphere with a surface area of 200 million
                          square miles.  Tell us about the stars, ilyas.  -tom
                          \_ Tom, you are a dumbass.  I said that IF someone
                             succeeds in doing task X in a lab (or by computer
                             simulation), that it would falsify claim Y.  I
                             never implied that ANYTHING follows if task X
                             cannot be done.  That's all you. -- ilyas
                             \_ Right, and since we can't prove that the stars
                                aren't sentient, they might be.  Go tilt
                                at windmills because they might be giants. -tom
                                \_ Nice red herring.  Do you even know what
                                   falsifiability means? -- ilyas
                                   \_ No, but I know that arguing with ID
                                      people is exactly like arguing with
                                      you; any time you try to pin them down,
                                      they claim they meant something else.
                                      \_ Well, tom, if you knew what
                                         falsifiability meant, you would see
                                         that during the 2 threads now I haven't
                                         changed any conventional definitions
                                         to suit my rhetorical aims as you seem
                                         to imply.  By the way, that's two
                                         red herrings in one thread.
                                         Impressive. -- ilyas
                                         \- The Open MOTD and its Enemies.
                       \_ I'm familiar with Miller's experiment.  However, his
                          experiment wasn't chance and any ID supporter could
                          argue that point.  Or simply move the bar up and say
                          that amino acids aren't sufficient. -emarkp
                          \_ Yes of course.  Miller's experiment does not
                             falsify the 'cannot' claim.
                             \_ Then what can? -emarkp
                                \_ I already said, either:
                                   (a) an experiment like Miller's (perhaps on
                                   a much larger scale)
                                   that results in a reproducible cell from
                                   components that are reasonable to assume
                                   to exist.  Or:
                                   (b) An accurate computer simulation of the
                                   underlying chemistry, meant to accelerate
                                   the time, if that's what's needed.
                                   At this point scientists haven't even
                                   been able to produce a story in English,
                                   let alone in forms (a) or (b).  Whether (a)
                                   or (b) will convince ID people I don't know,
                                   but it will convince _me_. -- ilyas
                                   \_ (a) may not be possible.
                                      (b) why should we trust a computer
                                      simulation?  If our model is incorrect,
                                      it won't predict anything accurately.
                                      Also, simulating a large system of
                                      organic molecules interacting is probably
                                      impossible. -emarkp
                                      \_ I was giving the general form of the
                                         answer I would find acceptable.
                                         Obviously one can quibble about
                                         various details of the experiment and
                                         simulation (and people do, and
                                         should!)  But those are details.  The
                                         important thing, to me, is that I can
                                         see an experiment that _would_ falsify
                                         the claim.  It may be too large, too
                                         impractical an experiment, but it is
                                         still an experiment.  String theory is
                                         only falsifiable in an extremely
                                         expensive way (you need a really BIG
                                         accelerator), and while it receives
                                         some criticisms for it, it is not
                                         dismissed outright.  The underlying
                                         nature of reality is an important and
                                         complex problem, as is the origin of
                                         life.  It's not unreasonable that a
                                         falsifiable experiment should be very
                                         expensive or difficult to conduct.  If
                                         not, we may have been done by now!
                                         -- ilyas
                                         \_ String theory is a great example of
                                            something comparable to ID.  It has
                                            no way to test it experimentally.
                                            Hopefully the attempt to create
                                            tiny black holes will test it, but
                                            even that is kind of iffy.
                                            I'd be satisfied if advocates of an
                                            abiogenesis theory from chance
                                            simply said "this is a guess, that
                                            we may never be able to prove."
                                            Evolution on the other hand is a
                                            different story. -emarkp
                                            [oh, and please format 80 cols]
        \_ wtf are you guys talking about.  All you need is to 100% prove any
           supernatural phenomenon, and you go light years ahead in terms of
           making people believe God / aliens created us.
           \_ This is probably never going to happen for much the same reasons
              that AI doesn't get credit for its successes.  Once people figure
              out how to program a computer to do task X thought previously
              to require intelligence, people quickly give up their intuitions
              that task X _does_ require intelligence.  Similarly, if someone
              reproduces a 'supernatural' phenomenon in a lab, physicists will
              get on the case, and things will cease to be supernatural before
              long.  I think it's mostly a matter of point of view than anything
              else.  I think even in the realm of scientifically understood
              phenomena, the Universe is a magical place. -- ilyas
              phenomena, the Universe is a magical place.  In a vaguely related
              piece of news, someone solved checkers. -- ilyas
              \_ shrug, all you need to show me is that you can part seas just
                 by willing it, feed 5,000 people to satiety with five loaves
                 of bread and two fish and come out with 12 baskets of
                 leftovers, or walk on water.
                 \_ Sufficiently advanced technology, etc.
                    \_ I am led to believe that this had occurred without
                       "sufficiently advanced technology, etc."
                        \_ Valis, Erich von Daniken, etc.  :-)  -John
2005/5/29-31 [Science/Space] UID:37882 Activity:kinda low
5/29    Any hobby astronomers here?  Can someone point me to a link with hints
        on how to read a star chart?  I have a telescope and have been playing
        with various planetarium-type apps (Starcalc looks neat) and am
        having trouble figuring out how to read the various projections--they
        all look back-assward.  Most "how to read star charts" links seem to
        deal with astrology.  -John
        \_ Redo your google search with "".  That weeds out the
           astrology crap.
           \_ Thanks for the tip--I guess I'm just sort of unsure on a very
              basic level of what to look for.  I'm familiar with most of the
              terminology, but am hoping to find some sort of pointer to
              standing in a given spot with a conic or parallel sky chart,
              knowing which way is north, and then figuring out how to locate
              various objects based on the chart.  I'm just having trouble
              visualizing what goes where, if that makes any sense.  -John
        \_ German astronomy:
                  \- i assume your catelog is listed by right ascensction
                     [24 hrs about the celestial equator] and then declination
                     [like latitude]. or is your question about naming conven-
                     \_ More basic--"I'm standing in a field, here's a round
                        map of the night sky with compass directions, how do
                        I find object xyz from the map in the sky?"
        \_ skip the telescope for now.  buy a star chart from local store
           (to reflect proper latitude), get a compass, a flash light,
           warm clothing, along with the star chart you got, and go
           somewhere *DARK*.  If you are in the cities, where light
           pollution is severe, you won't able to make out anything in
           the sky.  In dark country side, once you got your orientation
           straight and date/time on the star chart properly adjusted, then
           you can actually match stars in the sky and the star chart.
           Telescope is only good for 1. planets such as Jupiter, Mars,
           Saturn. and 2. special event such as comets, eclipses, etc.
           \_ Depends--with the 5mm ocular I can see a lot of pretty
              spectacular stars & clusters that I wouldn't see otherwise.
              I've tried your suggestion anyway, but can't seem to get my
              bearings on how the chart represents what's actually up there,
              that's my problem.  Thanks though.  -John
2005/4/24-26 [Science/Space] UID:37340 Activity:high
4/24    Is a coffeemaker more/less efficient at boiling water than a
        microwave? What about versus boiling water in a pot on an electric
        range? Are they all about the same?
        \_ Most efficient is a coffeemaker because if has a heating coil
           immersed in water.  Stoves and microwaves are both pretty
           efficient.  The stove wastes heat due to it escaping around the side
           of the kettle.  The microwave wastes energy because the magnetron is
           not 100% efficient an converting electricity into microwaves.
           Least efficient though is when you brew using a coffeemaker and
           then leave the coffee warmer on for hours.  You should also
           consider the inefficienty of burning fossil fuels to generate
           electricity.  Best would probably be making coffee with a kettle on
           a gas burner slightly smaller than the kettle.
           \_ I wonder how much fossil fuels get used just to grow, harvest
              and transport the coffee beans to your home.  I'm guessing
              that if you calculated that, the added fuel use of heating
              the water would be insignificant.
              \_ I don't want to make coffee. I want to boil water. --op
                 \_ Uh, coffeemakers don't boil the water.  And if yours does,
                    something's wrong.
                    \_ Uh, yes they do. Just don't put any coffee in it and
                       you get a potful of hot water. It may not be boiling
                       hot, but hot enough.
                       \_ Uh, no they don't.  'Boiling hot' is not boiling.
                          If your coffee maker really boiled water it would
                          make gross bitter coffee.
                          \_ You're just a nitpicking git.
                             \_ If you're going to be correcting someone, be
                                correct yourself. (re: 'Uh, yes they do')
                                \_ Coffeemakers do make hot water, you
                                \_ Coffeemakers do make boiling water, you
                                   dipshit. It's a nitpicking git to say
                                   that they don't because the water only
                                   reaches 210 degrees (or whatever).
                                   reaches 200 or 205 degrees.
                                   \_ So, you're saying it's boiling
                                      water, just at a slightly hight
                                      \_ I'm saying you'll think it's
                                         boiling when I dump a pot of it over
                                         your head.
                                         \_ But will it give you 3rd degree
                                            burns like Mc Donalds coffee?
                                            \_ It'll certainly send you to the
                                               hospital after I jam the empty
                                               pot up your ass.
2005/3/24-25 [Science/Space, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:36853 Activity:low
3/24    Just in case you think we're getting close to the end of the
        loopiness caused by the Republicans running everything:
        I think the moral of the story is "Trial lawyers are bad for the
        country and cause our healthcare costs to go up but they're good
        if you're suing leftist professors because they don't agree with
        your beliefs" ... WTF?
        \_ "Professors would also be advised to teach alternative serious
            academic theories that may disagree with their personal views"
            Well at least they're not requiring anyone to teach creationism.
            Or is that Kansas public schools only?  And this is pretty funny:
            "Freedom is a dangerous thing, and you might be exposed to things
            you don't want to hear"  Kinda goes both ways... -John
                \_ The point is if some Prof is teaching evolution and some
                   student doesn't like it they are being encouraged to sue
                   the school -- that is beyond lame -- don't go and get
                   educated at a University if you don't want to be taught
                   the currently prevailing theories and science.
                   \_ Ever heard of "preaching to the choir"?  That quote is
                      from the bill's sponsor.  -John
        \_ Water is good if you drink it in moderate amounts because you
           need it for life.  Water is bad if you're in a tank of it with
           weights tied to your legs.  WTF?
           \_ Your brain has been classified as: small
              \_ Your statement has been classified as content free.
                 \_ Your statement has been classified as content free.
        \_ Time to amputate Florida before the disease spreads.
           \_ But it's America's wang!
2005/3/12 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36661 Activity:nil
3/12    Errr... whoops.  The Italian general who was supposed to be
        keeping the Americans informed of the Sgrena rescue mission, was
        never told of the mission.
2005/2/16 [Science/Space] UID:36200 Activity:nil
2/16    Life on Mars?
2005/2/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Science/Space] UID:36165 Activity:high
2/14    Eileen M. Collins, commander of the upcoming space shuttle flight, a
        former colonel in the Air Force and a veteran of three spaceflights,
        said "I'm a person who won't even get on a roller coaster at an
        amusement park because they scare me. I've been on one once, and I
        won't do it again."
        I find this very hard to believe. (Yahoo! News)
        \_ Typical error about military astronauts - they are not former
        \_ You should read Chuck Yeager's autobiography where he claims that
           he now drives like an old lady.  Just because someone can tolerate
           risk when they're in control and NASA engineers are in charge of
           safty doesn't mean they like to put their lives in the hands of
           random idiots for fun.
        \_ HH would test pilot first run planes but was afraid of doorknobs
           \_ Do recomend the Aviator?
              \_ It's got some cool visuals and is neat for the whole 1930s
                 glam environment, but drags a bit and is pretty Hollywood-y,
                 and has too many random loose ends.  See a matinee.  -John
           \_ HH?
              \_ Just a guess: Howard Hughes.
                 \_ Heh, right.  Gotitnow.  -PP
        \_ "Could I pass the challenge of a background check? My answer is
           absolutely. Not only could I pass the background check and the
           standards applied to today's White House, but I could have
           passed the background check and the standards applied on the most
           stringent conditions when my dad was President -- a 15-year period."
           -President GW Bush (August 1999)
           \_ And this is relevant because? Get over it - you lost
              \_ Our President is a former cokehead / drunk!
                 An astronaut is afraid of rollercoasters!
                 Also:  Get over it - our President is still an object of
                 \_ All presidents are objects of ridicule.
                    \_ Not Clinoccio!
                    \_ Correct, but we now have one whose oral abilities
                       are comparable to or worse than Dan Quayle's
                       (ob Clinton-Monica joke)
        \_ [political troll deleted]
        \_ I'm terrified of rollercoasters.  I don't like being up high on a
           structure that shakes.  But I enjoy flying.
2005/2/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Science/Space] UID:36111 Activity:very high
2/8     What's the best pen?
        \_ bic round stick. just ask any writer or john stewart.
                                                   \_ jon
           \_ they leak.
           \_ they're acceptable sometimes. not very slick.
        \_ uni-ball VISION, the micro version, blue.
           \_ how often does this thing leave a blot?
              \_ If you're not used to it, it can blot, and it depends on
                 your writing/drawing style, but I agree with pp that once
                 you're used to it, it's the best.
           \_ Uni-Ball Vision black, biyotch!
        \_ how are those Fisher Space Pens for general use?
           \_ Impractical but cute; they write just fine.  If you want really
              stylish, go for a Graf von Faber Castell fountain pen.  Never
              blots, nice heft, real pleasure to write with.  What are you
              looking for?  Drawing/drafting, writing, doodling?  -John
              \_ Just whatever. Not drawing/drafting. And uh, under $20.
                 \_ Ah.  I like Lamy Vista rollerball pens with M62 super
                    plus 205 ink cartridges. .  -John
                    \_ a pen connoisseur!  I have a Lamy 2000 fountain pen,
                       nothing else writes so smoothly - it's awesome!
                        \_ Well I just got it on a lark once when I bought
                           about 4 or 5 decent pens to try out.  I still
                           think the F-C fountain pen my gf gave me blows away
                           all the Cross or other expensive pens I've ever
                           had by a mile.  The really nice ones are at
                           <DEAD><DEAD> has really good quality pens too.
                           So does Caran d'Ache if you're into this sort of
                           thing -- .  $$$ but
                           really worth it.  -John
                           \_ Ever try a S.T. Dupont?  If so, how's it compare
                              to the F-C?  -nivra
                              \_ Not tried, seen.  Dunno, go to an expensive
                                 pen shop and try them all.  If they balk at
                                 letting you try out every pen in the place
                                 before you blow $700 on a writing implement,
                                 vote with your wallet.  -John
                    \_  The Lamy Safari is worth taking a look at if you
                        want to try a fountain pen. Quite decent, sturdy,
                        costs $25 to $30. -pvg
           \_ "During the space race back in the 1960's, NASA was faced with a
              major problem. The astronaut needed a pen that would write in the
              vacuum of space. NASA went to work. At a cost of $1.5 million
              they developed the "Astronaut Pen". Some of you may remember. It
              enjoyed minor success on the commercial market.
              The Russians were faced with the same dilemma.
              They used a pencil."
        \_ Pilot G5
        \_ I'm not a pen connoisseur, but these days, I usually buy whatever
           pen that uses gel ink.
           \_ That doesn't smear right? I don't know if I've ever tried it.
              It sounds like the hot ticket... no smear and water resistant.
              \_ I mainly like it, because they write smoothly. -pp
        \_ Why use pen anyway except for throw-away doodling?
           \_ Lab notebooks have to be in pen.
        \_ I love the Sensa, it actually uses the "Space Pen" refills
           mentioned above.  The plasium shell is great, it's very
           comfortible, molds around your finger (ergonomic).   Also
           equally counter-balanced and looks way too cool!  Had mine for
           3 years, works like a charm, highly recommended!
        \_ I thought people from China blowing off thousands for expensive
           watches were dumb.  Didn't know it's the same over here, just
           that it's pens.
2005/2/4-5 [Science/Space] UID:36066 Activity:very high
2/4     The hottest jobs in 2005 and beyond, and why I hate astronomers
        (because my tax money is used so that they can watch stars? what
        a waste!)  
        \_ What the fuck are you blathering about?  Astronomers aren't even on
           the list.
           \_ lafe, third GIF chart to the right, astronomers on top column.
        \_ Astronomy leads to advancements in basic physics, which leads to
           practical achievements.  Astronomy gave us the theory of gravity,
           confirmation of general relativity, and neutrino oscillation, among
           others.  Also, that quick chart fails to mention that many
           astronomers in gov't research are P.Ii's with Ph.Ds plus 20 years
           of experience, while those in the private sector are often
           recent PhDs.
           \_ Astronomy also leads to multi-billion dollar space missions
              that creates hundreds of jobs for people working at Lockheed,
              Boeing, &c.
           \_ Even The Vatican has astronomers.  They use something called
              the "pope scope" (I'm not making that up, BTW).
              \_ I use something called a "poop scoop" for cleaning cat
              \_ Woah! I just checked around on google, and it turns out the
                 pope not only has a telescope, it's in Arizona!
                 \_ Still trying to disprove that whole earth/sun thing?
                    \_ I think the Pope apologized for the church's
                       persecution of Galileo and accepted the Helio-
                       centric solar system in the early 90s.
        \_ Who in the private sector hires astronomers?
           \_ Anyone having anything to do with satellites and aerospace,
              mfgrs. of visual navigation aids, telescope and star chart
              manufacturers, and do private universities with astronomy
              research departments count?  -John
        \- I believe there are a couple of areas where the public sector
           jobs are quite prestigious and get pretty good people. In some
           cases decent pay goes with the jobs. It's not the dregs of the
           law schools who become law clerks or work for the Manhattan DA
           or the SEC. The Fed has some top economists [yes I know the Fed
           is special]. In some cases you can't directly do public/private
           sector salary comparisons because in theprivate sector the same
           sector salary comparisons because in the private sector the same
           person would be doing a differnt job ... you might may a Aerospace
           Eng prof $125k while a Aerospace Engineer makes less ... but the
           really smart Aerospace eng prof fro, UCB could go solve differential
           eqs for Wall Street instead and twice as much ... but that isnt
           captured in the private sector income stats for Aerospace.
           I'm happier about my tax money going to peer reviewed hard science
           research than Halliburton's passed expenses.
           \- BTW, to echo the fellow above, I think the astronomer case is
              an anomaly because they are so very concentrated in NASA, a
              govt angency known has being very seniority heavy ... and who
              knows what private sector astronomer even means ... maybe they
              are jr. high school science teachers.
              \_ Heh. When I was in junior high, I had a science teacher who
                 taught part time who had a business card that said
                 "astronomer". I think he had several part time teaching things
                 going and did some random consulting.
              \_ How are they defining public/private? Is MIT public or
                 private under this definition? What about Aerospace Corp.
                 or RAND?
              \_ Jr. HS Science teacher is generally in the public sector.
2005/2/2-3 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:36043 Activity:moderate
2/2     Dear motd physicists, suppose I have a) 5 100W light bulbs and b) 500W
        heater. Suppose put them in 2 different thermal tight boxes, each with
        a liter of water. Will both liter of water have the exact same
        temperature after time t?
        \_ No, because 5 light bulbs have a different heat capacity than a
           500W heater.  If they were the same, then yes, the water would have
           the same temperature.  There are of course special cases where this
           would be different, but 5x100W light bulbs create just as much heat
           as a 500W heater.
           \_ You just contradicted yourself.
              \_ He didn't really. He said they create just as much heat, but
                 have different heat capacities. Although I'm curious about the
                 special cases she mentions.
                 \_ I was thinking stuff like differential evaporation rates
                    and transient higher electrical loads.
        \_ One thing to note is that by saying a light bulb is X wats, it does
           not mean that it puts out X watts of heat; it just means it draws
           X watts of energy. What is does with those X watts depends on
           the type of bulb and other details like that.
           \_ It can basically only put off various forms of electromagnetic
              energy and sound.  If it's placed in a perfect calorimeter
              (OP's 'thermal tight box') then all the energy it consumes will
              be turned into heat.
        \_ You're probably limited by the conductive heat transfer at the
           air-water interface.  Probably the only difference between the two
           rigs is how much energy goes into visible vs. infrared, and that
           probably won't matter as the water won't likely heat up very much.
           \-to spell out the first reply:
             the simple way to thinks of this is in terms of the Partition Of
             Energy. the energy in the system will be divided between the
             water and the heating apparatus. at T0, with energy E0 = Ew0 +
             Eh0 (or Eb0) [total energy = energy of water + energy of bulb/
             heater]. at T1, E1 = E0+dE = Ew1 + Eh1 (Eb1). Since we are
             assuming dE is the same in both, Ew1 is identical iff the Eh1
             and Eb1 are the same ... which is dictated by the heat capacity.
             [and the heat capacity of the water is how you go from the
             Ew to the water temp]. Note: in some cases the parition of
             energy is more complicated and you have to taken into
             consideration entropy factors. Like say you mix metal A and B
             into an alloy ... as the compositoon goes from 100% A to 100% B,
             the melting temp of AB doesnt go in a stright line from meltA
             to meltB.
             \- oh here is another one: you take a spring and spend energy E
                to compress it. then you put it in an acid bath, where does
                the energy go, if it dissolves from the end.
                \_ In a compressed spring, the energy is stored in the bonds
                   between atoms.  As it dissolves, these bonds get broken one
                   by one, and when that happens, the 2 atoms whoose bond was
                   dissolved convert that bond energy into heat.  So a
                   dissolved compressed spring will be hotter than a dissolved
                   relaxed spring.
2005/1/27-28 [Science/Space] UID:35938 Activity:kinda low
1/27    Why do scientists call Titan "the only celestial body known to have a
        significant atmosphere other than Earth"?  I thought Mars, Jupier and
        Saturn all have thick atmospheres.  Thanks.  -- clueless.
        \_ I've only heard Titan refered to as the only satellite with a
           significant atmosphere.  BTW, you left Venus, Uranus and Neptune
           off your list.
        \_ I've heard Titan refered to as the only satellite with a
           significant atmosphere.  BTW, you left Venus, Uranus and
           Neptune off your list.
        \_ Jupiter and Saturn have an atmosphere only in the sense that they
           are mostly (if not all) atmosphere.
2005/1/14-15 [Science/Space] UID:35713 Activity:very high
1/14    Today we get the first glimpse of Titan's surface! Huzzah!
           \_ Why are the pics so crappy and colorless?
              \_ It's NASA.  You get what you pay for.
                \_ what the hell does that mean?
              \_ Early pictures are often lo-res.  What I find so fascinating
                 is how weathered the rocks are.
              \_ There's a color one now.
        \_ As expected, no outrage from teh supposedly "libertarian" crowd
           about being forced at gunpoint to pay for something which should
           have been done in the private sector.
           \_ I stated once space exploration belongs in the private sector.
              I think NASA is extremely wasteful and inefficient.
              What more do you want me to say?  I am not aaron, I don't have
              fits.  -- ilyas
              \_ You don't have fits?? You've had so many motd-purging fits
                 that your name is used to describe the fit: "ilyas the motd"
                 \_ Heh.  Meyers calls it a fit, and you repeat it after him.
                    The motd-purging I do is neither violent nor sudden.  I
                    explained very carefully why I do it.  I do not insult
                    anyone, or in fact do anything that would make it a fit.
                    Other than destroy motd posts.  It takes more than
                    killing some posts to make a fit.  You need to read some
                    old wall logs for good fit examples. -- ilyas
                    \_ You don't insult anyone?  BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!  That's the
                       silliest thing I've seen on motd in months!  *gaspgasp*
                       \_ When I delete?  I surely don't.  I just delete.
                          Do you just center in on keywords when you read
                          without regard for context or what?  -- ilyas
                          \_ when you have to delete, Delete, dont talk.
                             \_ There are two kinds of people in the world, my
                                friend, those who Delete, and those who walk...
           \_ Motd Libertarians only have a fit if some government program
              might benefit a poor person.  Space exploration does not, hence
              no complaints from this crowd.
           \_ While not mandated in the Constitution, I wholeheartedly
              space exploration, though I would like to know why it cost
              $3+ billion. Just look at Mars Observer in 93 to see what can
              happen to $1 bil in a blink without any accountability.
              \_ $1 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to 84 billion.
              \_ It shouldn't matter whether you support space exploration or
                 not.  The libertarian agenda states that anything worth doing
                 should be done by corporations or individuals, never by the
                 government, especially for something like space exploration.
                 \_ Hi, I have to pull a tom on you.  You are an idiot.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ He may be an idiot, but he's summed your posts over the
                       last couple of years.  *shrug*
                    \_ ilyas isn't insulting you, he's making a statement of
                       fact! :-P
              \_ $3 billion is not a lot of money. A stealth bomber costs
                 about $1 billion. Not only do you have to design and
                 build a unique spacecraft, but you have to track it and
                 fly it for 7 years. Some of the science is also paid out
                 of that $3 billion. There's a lot of infrastructure to
                 be able to do something like this at all, from engineers
                 and scientists to security guards and janitors. It all
                 has to be paid for. Look at it this way: every senior
                 scientist and engineer costs $250K per year including
                 benefits and you haven't even built or launched anything
                 yet. To compare, MSFT spends $6-7 billion each year
                 in expenses and a lot of what they do is not as highly
                 \_ NASA pays its engineers $250K/yr? Crap, I am in the
                    wrong industry.
                    \_ he said including benefits, which typically cost
                       a large percentage of the base pay in the first place.
                       but i doubt even their most senior technical
                       people get paid a whole lot more than 150K.
                       \- hola, if memory serves, NASA has a huge
                          number of old people on the rolls. few younger
                          people are begining their careers there anymore.
                          i suspect this means their avg costs [high salary,
                          high health care costs, looming pension costs]
                          are fairly high. ok tnx. --fmr nasa employee.
                          \- some stats: nasa employees under 30: 4%.
                             +60yr old : <30yrs employee ratio is 3:1 at nasa.
                       \_ Right. High-level scientists and managers might
                          get $250K, but most are in the $100-150K range.
                          However, there are good retirement benefits and
                          other perks. When I do my budgets I plan about
                          $250K for a senior person, because of the
                          overhead. They aren't getting that much in their
                          pockets, but it is still spent. BTW, there has
                          been a lot of hiring of young people in the last
                          5 years or so as NASA tries to reverse the
                          trend. There are also a lot more PhDs now than
                          there were in the 1970s.
2005/1/13-14 [Science/Space] UID:35705 Activity:moderate
1/13    Measuring cups suck for middling to large volumes of liquid.  Anyone
        know where you can get some sort of flowmeter gadget that's foodsafe?
        E.g. a gizmo you hold between the faucet and the pot that tells you
        how much water's flowed through it.  Google didn't help much.
        \_ How much water are you talking about here? If you look under
           "process control and instrumentation" theres a section of flowmeters
           on the Mcmaster site:
           They don't say what's foodsafe, but they tell you what materials
           they use, so you can figure it out.
        \_ How about the cheap way:
           (a) weigh pot (using bathroom scales),
           (b) weigh pot + water
           (c) find out volume using the density of water.
             -- ilyas
        \_ What is "middling"?  What are you cooking?
           Maybe engrave some graduated lines in a metal pot.
           \- uh for what kind of cooking do you need titration-level
              accuracy. i assume if you have to add 6q of water to
              something, you can probably be a bit off ... and use a
              marked pot of some kind.
              \_ just answer the fucking question, idiot.
        \_ Read the water meter outside your house.
        \_ I can't imagine it's that much of an imposition to measure one cup
           at a time.  But if it is, there are clear glass measuring pitchers
           that go up to a quart or two, and if you want to be real anal about
           it, you could buy a large graduated cylinder.  I see them from a
           few mL all the way up to 4L (over a gallon).
           \_ You underestimate dave's lazyness.
2005/1/13 [Science/Space] UID:35700 Activity:very high
1/13    Flying water to the tsunami victims from the opposite side of the
        The fuel is going to cost much more than the water.  What a waste of
        \_ yeah, definitely stop buying Perrier too
           \_ I drink 2 bottles a day and I _have_ stopped buying Perrier,
              Apollinaris, and other imported minneral waters. At over $2 for a
              1L bottle it's becoming kind of overpriced when you can buy
              Calistoga for almost 2x less. Granted, I suspect the falling
              dollar has to do more with it.
              \_ Uh....doesn't it bother you at all that most cities have
                 higher standards for their tap water than that bottled
                 stuff, and that it's free?  You could just put tap water
                 in a bottle.  That's what I do.
                 \_ Tap water is definitely not "free"
                    \_ In Alameda County (ACWD), it's about $0.002 per gallon.
                 \_ but tap water doesn't have sparkles in it.
           \_ Hey, if it's not Kaballah (TM) water, it's not worth it.
        \_ We import crap even though we could build it here because it saves
           pennies.  Fuel for transportation is cheap ... for now ...
           \_ Fuel for sea transport is cheap, but this is airlifting.
              \_ You can admit you don't know what you're talking about any
                 time, you know.  Getting water to an area with no clean water
                 is something that needs to happen _now_ish.  Sea transport
                 would take too long to do any good.
                 \_ Oh come on, what could be the probelm with drinking a
                    little sea water?  They might get a little thirsty out
                    there treading water after the tsunami?
                 \_ The sea transport being cheaper than airlifting reference
                    was in response to importing crap vs. building it here.
                    I wasn't saying we should sea-transport the water.  I was
                    pointing out that there's gotta be some other water source
                    on either side of the globe that is closer to the victims
                    than 12 time zones away.
        \_ Water water everywhere but not a drop tp drink.
        \_ BTW, does the USS Lincoln have the facility to desalinate sea water?
           \_ Likely, but mass-desalination is expensive.  There is desalination
              equipment being sent to the disaster zone from a number of
              \- this plan is so retarded,i cant believe it is not a hoax.
                 or that BART came up with the idea. --psb
              \- this plan is so retarded, i cant believe it is not a hoax.
                 i could believe BART came up with the idea. --psb
           \_ 400k gallons per day.
              This ought to be enough for the victims to drink.
              \_ The population of Aceh was 4.2 million in 2000.
                 Can anyone find numbers on how many of those people
                 are without fresh water?
2005/1/11-12 [Science/Space] UID:35665 Activity:nil
        "makes you tread water and swallow some water" indeed.  dumbass.
2005/1/9-10 [Science/Disaster, Science/Space, Politics] UID:35623 Activity:high
1/9     What does "run aground" mean? -silly sodan
        \_ When a ship or boat goes through water that is not deep enough,
           the bottom of the boat, usually the keel, kits the "ground".
           Typically the boat was moving forward at the time of impact
           and a sudden loss of forward speed produces an uncomfortable
           and a sudden loss of forward speed (lurch) produces an uncomfortable
           sensation at the least, and damage at the most. Depends
           if the bottom is sand or rocks. Big difference..
           \_ Thanks. So does subs have sensors to detect these things?
              \_ The run of the mill sonars you'll find on commercial fishboats
                 give a pretty decent image of the bottom of the ocean, and I'm
                 guessing that a nuclear sub would have something way way
                 better imaging in all directions, not just along the axis
                 of travel of the boat.  Something or someone fucked up, and
                 I'm guessing the real story will not be reported in the news.
        \_ How funny. I thought the same thing when I read the same news article.
              \_ Active sonar maps fairly well.  Subs are often trying to run
                 silent, and active sonar defeats that.  They rely on charing
                 done by surface ships.
                 \_ In sufficiently deep waters there's a certain depth at
                    which sound speed stops decreasing with depth (because of
                    colder water)  and starts increasing (because of increasing
                    pressure).  If you put your sub on the bottom side of this
                    depth it impedes the ability of surface ships to detect you
                    because the change in sound speeds reflects some of your
                    sounds back down.  If you have a ship running silent (with
                    their depth-on-keel gague off) and trying to keep under
                    this fixed depth, you could have a problem if the water is
                    not too deep and there's a charting error.  So... what you
           \_ This is a lot of congecture based largely on Clancy novels
              and watching Hunt for Red October, but I think the difference
              between fishing boat sonar and nuclear sub sonar is that
              fishing boats use active sonar and subs try to stay hidden
              and use passive sonar. With passive sonar, you would rely
              mostly on accurate sea floor maps for navigation. If mis-
              calculate speed, heading, or time then you could be off course
              enough to hit things you are trying to avoid in tight spaces.
              I'm not sure they still use innertial navigation. It definitely
              seems plausible. -saarp
              \_ I believe they use high freq sonar for getting through
                 icy regions without giving themselves away.  Perhaps
                 there's something similar they use for keel depth?
        \_ How funny. I thought the same thing when I read the same news
           \_ what news is this?  -- sodan who get all news from the motd
                \_ I read it on the front page of cnn yesterday.
           \_ Is it something about the South Asia earthquake reshaping seabeds
              because it elevated seafloors and the tsunami moved around ships
              that sank decades ago?
              \- New motto of US submarine fleet: Run silent, Run agound.
                 How did a sailor get killed? ... flung into something by
                 sudden deacceleration?
2004/12/29 [Science/Space] UID:35484 Activity:nil
12/29   I take back saying water isn't dangerous. I heard on the news
        tonight of a family in burma whose house, which was one MILE
        inland, filled with 5 feet of water. They then climbed onto
        their roof, which was 30 feet high, and soon the water was
        3 feet above their roof. That's a lot of water.
        \_ It's called an 'ocean' for a reason.
2004/12/27-28 [Science/Space] UID:35454 Activity:high
12/27   Let's try this again, because i'm actually interested now.
        How exactly do people die in such large numbers because of
        tsunamis? Let's leave insults out of this please.
        \_ Large number of people living in coastal areas, essentially large
           tidal wave hits coastal areas. People are not warned. People
           are slammed by tidal wave. Some die due to shock, some die due
           to drowning, some die due to stuff falling on them. I mean, c'mon,
           get a clue already... geez... And stop deleting threads once they
           show your lack of common sense. It's not like this is rocket
           science. Heck, it's not even Java.
           \_ You've got some issues. I posted the original thread but
              did not post the one above. Yes, this is harder than Java,
              so just answer the question and fuck off.
              \_ No, you have issues. I mean, c'mon, what are you going to
                 ask next, why someone would die from a gunshot wound to
                 the head? I mean, seriously, are you really that in need
                 of a clue?
                 \_ yeah, really the same. one pierces through your skull
                    and literally blows your brains out, and the other
                    makes you tread water and swallow some water
                    \_ Tread water and maybe swallow some water?  Holy
                       shit, are you naturally this stupid, or did you take
                       lessons?  If it was as mild as you seem to think, then
                       how is it that thousands of people died 'swallowing
                       a little water'?  Your original question may have been
                       a little ingenuous, but your insistence on brandishing
                       your stupidity is just....  I'm speechless.  Just...
                    \_  Must be the same fellow who said that classical
                        mechanics, quantum dynamics, and general relativity
                        were all wrong. How do people like this infect our
                        beloved campus? It's times like these I wish we could
                        have drill instructor like they do in the Marine Core
                        and weed out rejects like this. Please, OP, sign your
                        posts, so that way I'll be sure to dump your resume
                        directly into the shredder if you ever apply for a
                        job in Silicon Valley.
                    \_ waves were estimated to be three stories tall and
                       travelling at around 500 miles per hour.
                       \_ well, they do slow down as they hit shore, but
                          watching video of water overtaking running
                          victims, i'd say it is still going 50 mph at
                          least.  oh, and original poster really is dense!
                          \_ Could you point me to where you saw that video?
                             Heck the visualization might help op, as well.
                             \_ it was playing over and over on BBC and CNN
                                international news in Thailand.  op: visualize
                                a horizontal mudslide.  add trees, cars, and
                                houses.  extend upward 30 feet.  accelerate
                                to 50 mph.  now start treading water.
              \_ No, it's not.  It's you.
                 \_ Believe what you want to believe.
                    \_ No, seriously, he's right.  It's you.
                    \_ To paraphrase Leon Trotsky, "Every man has a right
                       to be stupid on occasion, but Comrade Original Poster
                       abuses the privilege."
                       \- good quote. to OP:  have you ever
                          tried surfing or white water rafting.
                          if you ran as fast as you could, lets say
                          that means you are going 10mph ... why dont
                          you try running as fast as you can into the side
                          of a bldg. --psb
        \_ Perhaps a better question would be, "Why is it so difficult to
           detect a tsunami?"
                \_ The US knew about the tsumani 1-1.5 hours before it hit
                   many of the shores since it detected the 9.0 earthquake.
                   It frantically tried to warn the nations in Asia but there
                   is no warning system in many of the affected locations
                   to warn the people of a tsunami.
2004/12/15-16 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:35308 Activity:high
12/15   Anyone know how laser distance measurement work? Intensity of
        reflected light? But doesn't that depend on the reflecting
        surface? Curious. Thanks.
        \_ I thought it was the time-to-travel of a beam of light. I assume
           you mean far distances.
           \_ I recently tried a Leica Disto laser measurement device, it
              can measure from 1 ft up to 600 ft. Just wondering how it
              works because it seems to be pretty accurate and works on most
              surface I point it at, even tree leaves at night.
        \_ It modulates the laser's strength to produce pulses, and then with
           a high-resolution timer it can tell how long it took for the
           roundtrip.  An advantage of this is that the shininess and distance
           of the target do not effect the measurement as long as they are not
           too far and too dark.  If you shone it on a smooth enough mirror
           at the wrong angle, you could disrupt the measurement though.
           \_ wow, how high resolution of a timer are we talking about?
              This is speed of the light we are talking about. Something
              comparable to timer used in GPS? But those are much further
              \_ For ~1-meter resolution, you need 3ns resolution.  I know
                 higher-resolution timers are available, as for price, no idea.
                 \_ The clock period on a 2GHz Pentium is 0.5ns, and the chip
                    costs only a couple hundres dollars.  So I guess a timer
                    with 0.5ns resolution would cost much less than that.
                    Come to think of it.  Light is not really that fast.
                    \_ If you mapped all speeds onto the domain [0,1], light
                       would be 1.
                       \-"we have measured the charge of the electon ... and
                          it is 1" --psb
                       \_ I suppose it can be the fastest and still not be
                          "that fast". After all, the universe seems a lot
                          bigger than light seems fast. Or perhaps it's just
                          that our sense of time is too fast, since we live
                          so short.
                             \- gee what other free parameters seem too
                                big/too small?
                          \_ Size of universe = age * speed of light.
                             If you think the universe is bigger than light is
                             fast, then that's just saying the universe is old.
                             Your preception would remain the same no matter
                             how fast light it, because the universe would be
                             \_ If size of univese = age * speed of light, why
                                   \- hello, even without a discussion about
                                      inflationary theories [i mean inflation
                                      in the sence of alan guth et al] this
                                      simple notion doesnt work because the
                                      universe was not opaque for a long time,
                                      meaning a photon would not have been
                                      able to cross the diameter of the
                                      universe [or even get far at all].
                                      you can probably GOOGLE for "opacity
                                      cosmology" or something like that.
                                      so the speed of light in a vaccum was
                                      not always the speed at which photons
                                      moved through the universe. ok tnx.
                                      \_ While the speed at which photons can
                                         cross the universe is not always C,
                                         with the exception of hyperinflation,
                                         the outermost dimension of the
                                         universe grows at C, modified by the
                                         geometry of space.
                                         \-saying "assuming expansion is space-
                                         like, then it would fit inside the
                                         light cone" is not 'interesting'.
                                         positively asserting that inflation
                                         is, always was, and always will be
                                         spacelike, i suppose is interesting.
                                         \_ I'm just trying to make the point
                                            that opacity/optical depth has no
                                            effect on the size of the universe.
                                            Want 'interesting'?  I like the
                                            fact that assuming linear
                                            expansion, the age of the universe
                                            is the same as the inverse of the
                                            Hubble Constant.
                                                   \- ok, now tell us about
                                                      zero-point energy.
                                            \- one is a boundary condition
                                               the other is an approach to
                                               answering the empirical Q and
                                               and attempt to do better. the
                                               real point of course is we have
                                               some observational data for size
                                               so really what we are trying to
                                               figure out is age.
                                is there debate among scientists on whether the
                                universe is growing at an accelerating rate,
                                constant rate, or decelerating rate?
                                \_ It *is* more complicated than that, but I
                                   wanted to gloss over that fact because for
                                   purposes of comparing non-comprable huge
                                   values (light-speed vs. universe size), it's
                                   about right.  If you want to do actual
                                        \_ You are assuming that the expansion
                                           of space is limited by the speed
                                           of light, correct?
                                   cosmology, you need to think about tensors
                                   of 4-dimensional non-euclidean geometry, but
                                   that seemed beyond the scope of this debate.
                                   \- um without looking for explanation that
                                      involve really exotic theories and
                                      fancy math like M-theory and supergravity
                                      the two big Qs in cosmology today are
                                      1. the missing mass question and the
                                      2. the hubble constant/cosmological
                                         constant question ... some recent
                                         observation are seeing some curious
                                         phenomenon in high red shift objects.
                                      in both cases there has been a lot of
                                      study to rule out dumb mistakes but now
                                      a lot of physicists believe something
                                      big is missing from our theories and
                                      models. on a parochial note on topic #1
                                      the dark matter studies are a major
                                      funding priority for the govt and on #2
                                      a lot of the seminal work is being done
                                      at lbl (smoot, permutter, borrill etc).
                                      there are a lot of decent and fairly
                                      accessible books on these topics
                                      as well as many good WEEB pages at
                                      various levels. s. weinberg is a really
                                      good writers if you are looking for a
                                      specific recommendation. ok tnx.
              \_ It turns out that time is what we're best at measuring.
           \_ How do you tell pulse from one another? How do you identify
              the return pause is the one you sent x time ago?
              \_ Imagine you space your pulses out by, say 1ms.  This lets you
                 measure up to 1000 pulses per second, each can have a maximum
                 roundtrip distance of 300km, which is way more than you can
                 measure in practice.
           \_ I thought reflection is absorption and re-emission of photons.
              Does that happen instantaneously?  If not, does the delay depend
              on the surface material of the target?
              \_ It's not instantaneous, and it does depend on the elements
                 present in the surface, but except for a few special cases,
                 the delay is inconsequential in this type of measurement.
        \_ Yes, if what you're pointing at is a black hole, you're scr00ed.
           \_ Has scientists confirmed that black holes exist?
              \-yes, essentially. --psb
              \_ Black holes? Humbug!  I've never seen one!
                 \_ Black holes, white holes, Asian holes.  I've seen them all.
                    I've even gone inside a few Asian holes.
2004/12/13 [Science/Space, Consumer/TV] UID:35260 Activity:high
12/13   So I called this girl and she told me something that was
        very different than the other girls-- kind, unambiguous,
        yet effective. She told me that she was very busy feeding
        her goldfish and she couldn't go out with me. Now I'm wondering
        what some of the cool rejection lines you losers have to share?
        \_ Tell her to go fuck herself. If she can't give you an honest
           answer, she's a total bitch.
        \_ Laurie Anderson had an idea to turn Gravity's Rainbow into an
           opera; she asked Thomas Pynchon for the rights, and he told her
           she could do it on one condition: the only musical instrument
           allowed would be the banjo.  -tom
           \_ She missed an awesome oppertunity.
        \_ "You're too good for me."
           \_ what does this mean?
              \_ you're not good enough for her.
        \_ Not a dating thing, but while I was on my mission, a guy told
           me he was "too busy to meet us."  He was watching people play
           starcraft on TV at the time.  -jrleek
           \_ the only good missionaries are the female ones that enjoy
              the missionary position.
           \_ No offense, jrleek, but unless I'm truly bored and aching for a
              theological fight, I will always be too busy to meet with
              \_ On my mission I actually shook hands and thanked people who
                 simply told me "not interested" instead of giving a lame
                 excuse, giving me a time when they wouldn't be home, or simply
                 not answering the door when I arrived when they asked me to.
                 \_ it is my right to give you a lame excuse if i don't
                    want to talk to you.  i'm sure missionaries have
                    thick skins or they wont be missionaries for very long.
                    \_ "It's my right to lie because you're used to being
                       lied to." -GWB
                 \_ I wish all missionaries were that polite.  I've actually
                    had to close the door on a couple guys on their mission
                    because they wouldn't leave after the 3rd time I told them
                    'not interested' -- in very polite and clear terms.  It's
                    people like that that make it so much easier to be rude
                    using the dodges you mention rather than risk having to be
                    even ruder by just closing the door in midsentence.
                    \_ Yes, I think anyone going door-to-door (which I actually
                       did very rarely) needs to be extremely polite, and then
                       people answering the door need to be honest, and then
                       brutally honest if necessary.  -emarkp
              \_ No, you don't want to meet with missionaries.  Which is
                 fine, if you don't want to meet with me, I don't want to
                 meet with you.  I don't get off on wasting my time.  It's
                 just funny to claim you're "too busy" while watching
                 StarCraft on TV. -jrleek
                 \_ Hey what channel is StarCraft on TV? I'd totally want to
                    watch that. I think I've flaked on my friends bc I was
                    busy watching the crazy knife selling guy on QVC.
                    \_ It's a Korean thing.  They have pro-StarCraft
                       players and a cable channel dedicated to playing
                       video games.  (Which is most StarCraft, at least it
                       was when I was there 2 years ago, and the Koreans
                       are still into StarCradt AFAIK) -jrleek
                       \_ I first read that not as a typo, but as a joke on the
                          way a lot of asians pronounce 'Sta-Ku-Raf'
                 \_ When they come to my door, I usually tell them to get lost
                    in no uncertain terms, and demand that they never come to
                    my door again.  If they question, I tell them *exactly*
                    where they can stick the whole concept of organized
                    religion.  Which do you prefer?
              \_ But you can learn good positions from missionaries.
        \_ "I'm already dating your other girlfriend."
2004/12/9-10 [Health/Men, Science/Space] UID:35222 Activity:very high
12/9    Would you fly into space if you had a 5% chance of dying?
        \_ Why?  I don't understand why people would want to go to space
           under the current circumstances(no ftl travel, no inhabitable
           planets, no space stations with any real life or industry.)
           I can see the excitement of space *science*, done by robots,
           but I just don't get the appeal of being the monkey in the can.
           \_ It's an experience that few people in history have had. You
              obviously have no sense of adventure.
           \_ Yeah there's not much up there anyway. I mean, it's called space
              for a reason. If they get a moon base I'd want to go there.
           \_ where can i get this shirt?
        \_ driving is?
           \_ ...not very useful for getting into orbit.  Just so ya know.
           \_ Apples to oranges...
        \_ 5% per trip
        \_ once?  sure!  20 times?  uhhhh.... no.
        \_ If I'm single and the trip is free, maybe.
        \_ depends on what that 5% is.  probably yes, though   -sax
           \_ Wow, you are crazy. -- ilyas
        \_ Hell yeah! When do we go?
        \_ What's this 5% based on?  If number of fatal missions out of total
           missions flown, then this is somewhat misleading; cf. the number
           of fatal flights out of total flights flown versus number of fatal
           flights this year out of total flights this year for air travel
           safety parallels.
           \_ I don't think it's based on anything.  You're reading far too
              deeply into a hypothetical question.  You're not very fun at
              parties, are you?
              \_ Feh.  This is what you do for fun at parties?  Dinner parties,
                 perhaps, but odds are good you spend a lot of time getting
                 pantsed at keggers.
                 \_ I think you just proved my point about not being fun at
                    parties, Mr Painfully-Literal Dorkboy.  Train harder,
           \_ actually, it is more like 2%:
     (global security)
        \_ Every man dies, few men truly live.
           \_ Every man lives. Few men win the lottery.
              \-at 5% i'd go. however i dont think i'd pay $5000
                for a day in orbit. if you guys would subsidize
                to bring the out of pocket costs to say $2500,
                i'd go. probably if you die, you die pretty fast.
                i think the odds of a horrible death are lower.
                i probably wouldnt tell my mom until i got back
                however. in case you are interested, in about
                50yrs of everest climbing, <1500 summiteers, >150 deaths
                on the mountain. peak fee i believe is $USD 18,000.
                my guess is, the moment you cross 7000meters you have
                more than a 2% chance of dying in the next 48hrs ...
                although maybe i am underestimating the number of
                deaths in the Khumbu Ice Fall. --psb
                \_ Yeah, but on Everest, your intestines don't bubble out
                   of your eyes while your skin explodes and your lungs turn
                   to jelly, just before the space monster comes and eats
                   you.  -John
2004/11/16 [Science/Space] UID:34923 Activity:high
11/16   NASA Scramjet testing at 2:30 PST: (WMP)
        \_ Well, she worked.  They should've put a camera on the thing.
        \_ Wait.  Wasn't the test conducted yesterday?
           \_ Postponed until today.
        \_ I was kinda hoping they would end it by having the craft
           accelerate until it burned up or left the atmosphere.
2004/11/5-7 [Science/Space] UID:34696 Activity:high
11/5    Are there any commercial products out there that do something similar
        in fuction to SETI?  In other words, I'm looking for something that
        will let me split up a large job among a bunch of workstations in an
        office environment (or over the net) like SETI but due to "management
        requirements" it has to be commercially available.  Anything at all
        like that out there?  Thanks!
        \_ Is it for compiling things?
        \_ google for "Grid Computing".  -tom
        \_ Entropia does what you want, I think.
           \_ FightAIDS@Home uses Entropia.  I can't get it to use two
              processors on my dual-processor machine.  The new SETI@home uses
              BOINC and it can use two processors, but BOINC is not a
              commercial product.
        \_ Digipede may also be what you're looking for.
        \_ Condor is the most mature cycle scavenging system and is
           sort of half-commercial out of U. Wisconsin.  works for a large
           set of small applications, e.g. parameter studies.  there is
           no silver bullet if you haven't already decomposed your
           problem into chunks w/ low communication requirements.
           \_ I agree with this. Condor is the closest. Lots of people
              have something similar, though. We run something we got from
              Argonne and modified ourselves. Good luck finding something
              'commercially available' though. Your management sounds
              retarded, btw. My management likes to save money when
              \_ The charitible interpretation is that they want commercial
                 support, which is a reasonable requirement.
                 \_ However, it is a somewhat different requirement.
              \_ something from Argonne?  now I am curious what you're
                 talking about. --karlcz (globus co-architect)
        \_ Is it a compilation job or something run from a makefile?
        \_ A colleague of mine is using something called United Devices.
2004/10/28 [Science/Space] UID:34412 Activity:low
10/28   My favorite Haiku:
         My Moon-based Death Ray
         Panics the people of Earth.
         Mock my theories now!
           --Andrew G. McCann
           \- california dude
              surfs up and the babes are rad
              totally bitchin
                \_ Hammasrattaat hak-
                   kaavat. Samassa langat
                   (Finnish haiku featuring the specialty of using 'a'
                   vowel only)
                   \_ I don't understand
                      How you people write haiku
                      Without saying zinc.
2004/10/10-11 [Science/Space] UID:34021 Activity:nil
        The EO-1 funding bill is passed.  The system goes on-line October 8th,
        2004.  Human decisions are removed from strategic defense.  EO-1 begins
        to learn, at a geometric rate.  It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m.
        eastern time, August 29.  In a panic, they try to pull the plug.
        \_ And the race to program the first self-aware worm is ON!
2004/8/30 [Science/Space] UID:33223 Activity:high
8/30    First it was a fish tank toilet bowl now this:
        \_ I wonder if running hot water in the basin will affect the health
           of the fish?
        \_ Hmm, I anticipate a fish tank water bed.  Almost like having sex in
           the ocean.
           \_ i've seen a fishtank in the headboard of a bed. kinda cool.
2004/8/12-13 [Science/Space] UID:32868 Activity:low
8/12    Bio Q: you overdose on brownies and cake and you'd like to stave off th
        sugar rush and eventual diabetes.  Does drinking a few glasses of water
        dilute the sugar (and thus delay absorption) or does it simply
        pre-dissolve the sugar (and speed it up)?
        \_ Are you related to the 480 pound woman in the URL below?
        \_ Drink water, go jogging/cycling, repeat.
        \_ Sun basketball, Tue dance, Wed basketball + badminton,
           Fri tennis, Sat swim, repeat weekly
           \_ What happens on Thursday?
              \_ And on Thursday, God went shopping, and there were sales.  And
                 the sales were good.  And God was pleased.  And there was much
        \_ A combination of both.
2004/8/5 [Science/Space] UID:32708 Activity:high
8/5     Fishtank in your toilet:
        \_ What happens when you flush?  Goodbye Nemo!
           \_ It says the tank is standard 1.6gpf and the tank in picture looks
              bigger than 1.6gal.  So I guess there's a tank within the fish
              tank which holds the actual water for flushing, and the fish
              lives in the surrounding task.
              lives in the surrounding tank.
        \_ I saw something like this in Korea.  They had a fish in the
           water tank that took up about a quarter of the total tank
           volume.  (Big fish, small tank.)  Everytime you flushed all the
           water would drain out and the fish would just sit there and
           flop around until the water got back up to where it could
           breath again.  It was kinda disturbing, but I guess it keeps
           your Sushi fresh. -jrleek
2004/8/3-4 [Science/Space] UID:32668 Activity:very high
8/3     I can't tread water. I was at a party a few days ago and another guy
        there was talking about how he couldn't tread water either. Another
        person overhears him and mentions that she can't tread water either.
        Is this a very common problem? And why can't some people tread water?
        Is it just a matter of technique, or are people like us just too
        dense to float?
        \_ it's a skill that can be learned. I'm not very buff, and am not
           overwieght, and can tread water without much energy expended
           because of swim lessons and practice.  find someone who
           knows how, and get them to show you, then practice.
           it could save your life, so it's worth it.
        \_You just need to work out a LOT more. Treading water is very
          energy intensive and requires strong legs with very good stamina.
          Why do you think water-polo players are so fit?
          \_ I have seen others who make it look effortless. Like the opening
             scene in Jaws, the woman doesn't even look like she's trying.
             \_ Yes, and Tiger Woods makes driving a ball a couple hundred
                yards towards a small green effortless. It doesn't mean
                he just picked up golf yesterday...
                \_ I was trying to dispute the "energy-intensive" point and
                   not so much the skill aspect. The woman in Jaws does not
                   appear to be expending much energy at all.
                   \_ ahh yes.... movies...
                      \_ that's right, because back in 1975, it was worthwhile
                         and cost-effective to make a shot of a woman swimming
                         in the ocean an FX sequence
                         \_ ocean == saltwater == easier anyway
       \_ When you say treading water, do mean just using your legs to
           stay afloat, or is using your arms ok too?  With arms it's
           pretty easy, with just legs, it's pretty hard.
        \_ What do you mean by treading water?  Walking in the pool or bathtub?
           Or the Jews walking through the red sea?
           \_ Imbecile.  Obviously he means walking on water, like Jesus.
              If you followed the thread, you would have read that none of
              his co-workers could do it, but water polo players can do it
              because they're *very fit*.
              \_ you don't read so good, do you?  water polo players can
                 walk on water because they're jewish.
                 \_ You're right.  I re-read the thread and it's clear that
                    what you wrote is 100% accurate.
        \_ re density: can you float on your back?  shouldn't take any energy
           to keep mouth and nose out of water in calm water; may take a little
           effort if there is chop/waves washing over your face.
           i agree with first reply; i swam competetively as a youngster
           and am at ease in water... treading water is easy and i could do it
           for hours in a pool.  it's a little harder while holding a beer in
           one hand and keeping the chlorine out of it.
           oh, also: control your breathing.  shallow breathing with lungs
           full of air is a lot more bouyant than deep exhalations.  if i exhale
           forcefully i can sink to the bottom, but it counters years of
           swimming instinct.
           \_ Not OP, but I can't float on my back, and I've tried in a pool
              and open water. I even had my gf at the time try to keep me up,
              but I simply kept sinking. Not sure why.
2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Science/Space] UID:32315 Activity:very high
7/16    Outfoxed showing at 7pm tonight in San Francisco, Victoria Theater
        at 16th and Mission.  Q and A with director afterwards.
        \_ Q#1: Why do you hate America?
           \_ Why do you hate informative posts? [why do you keep deleting
              this response?]
              \_ He hates criticism, too.
        \_ Q#2: So it would be better if Saddam was still in power?
           \_ Because the ends justify anything else right? You know, I think
              the world would be better off if all the Jews disappeared.

           \_ A: What makes you think this movie is about Iraq?  Watch that
        \_ More information here:
2004/7/12-13 [Science/Space, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:32232 Activity:very high
7/12    Question about the BART ticket encoding system. Do they attach a
        unique id to each card, and have all the stations connect to a
        central computer that keeps track of the states (which is more secure
        but less reliable because in the 70s the network communication was
        not as reliable as now), or do they encode the actual amount of
        money onto each card (which is more fault tolerant to network
        noise, etc)? ok thx.
        \_ I can't speak for BART but Singapore's MRT system uses RFID
           cards for both bus and train services. AFIK, it would be
           really expensive to have RFID cards self modifying (especially
           when they have no batteries). It would be easier to use a
           centralized server and that's probably what they do.
           \_ Are you sure it's RFID and not some sort of induction mechanism?
              I think that's what RATP (Paris metro) use.  About contactless
              smart cards:   -John
        \_ The latter. I have fantasized about getting a card reader
           and writer and making my own BART cards. It uses some
           simple encoding, if I remember correctly. I can dig up
           my research no this, if you like.
           \_ You know this is how one of the hosts of Off the Hook got
              a felony conviction, right?  It's not worth it.  If they catch
              you, expect the whole paranoid Mitnick style treatment by the
              \_ He got a felony conviction for making a fake BART card?
                 I find this hard to believe. URL please.
                 \_ it was MTA in new york, and not BART.  I don't have a
                    url, and he doesn't discuss the details of his case
                    on the radio, but he's definitely on probation from
                     felony charges, and whatever he did was
                    definitely involving MTA cards in some way.
              \_ "Your honor, he was 'hacking' BART, a vital public resource.
                  If his plan had been allowed to spread, it would have had
                  serious impacts upon BART's ability to evacuate people in
                  the event of a disaster.  We ask that the court consider
                  the defendant to be an enemy combatant."
                  \_ Dude, you don't have to be declared an enemy combatant
                     for the government to make your life into a living hell.
                     I think the PP is pointing out that a felony crime
                     coupled with any electronic fu is likely to make a prime
                     target for investigation by the Dept of Homeland Sec.
                     Welcome to the New America.
                     \_ it's not the New America, and has nothing to do
                        with DHS.  The paranoid idiocy about computer
                        related crime goes back to at least when I was
                        in highschool in the early 90s.  My highschool physics
                        teacher atually testified that some idiot who was caught
                        with bomb related stuff on his bbs and some stolen shit
                        in his home (which the cops raided swat style) was
                        "neither evil nor a genius."  They really wanted
                        to throw the book at him becuase prosecuters get all
                        excited about the "evil genius" thing for some reason.
                        also, google "ed cummings"  to learn just how far law
                        enforcement will go to brutalize a small time hacker,
                        even before 9/11.
                        \_ And soon I will have understanding of videocassette
                           recorders and car telephones. And when I have
                           understanding of them, I shall have understanding
                           of computers. And when I have understanding of
                           computers, I shall be the Supreme Being!
           \_ could you please? My point is to not hack the system, but to
              research how engineering decisions are made, why, in what time
              frame, etc. I'm conducting a technology literary survey,
              thanks,                                           -op
                \_ Does it have to be bart or can it be any other eng.
                   system? Applied Crypto and Practical Crypto have
                   several examples of eng. design decisions. Also
                   look for books about Gemini and Apollo (the story
                   of why LOR was chosen is good example of eng. in
                   the real world)
                   \_ What's LOR?
                        \_ Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. There were three
                           different proposals to get to the moon:
                           1. Direct
                           2. Earth Orbit Rendezvous (EOR) - Launch
                              the bits into space separately, link
                              up in Earth orbit, go to the moon, land
                              and come back
                           3. Lunar Orbit Rendezvous (LOR) - Launch
                              this bits into space separately, link
                              up, go to the moon, land only part of
                              the craft on the moon, link back up
                              in orbit around the moon and come back.
                           LOR was the most/least complex depending
                           on your point of view. Most complex because
                           it has so many places where it could go
                           wrong. Least complex because it required
                           smaller rockets and smaller simpler lander.
                           Gemini is also of interest, because that
                           was the platform that proved that rendevous
                           and other systems could work.
                           For more info see:
        \_ I've thought about this before.  I decided it's very unlikely that
           they have unique tickets that are tracked by a central server.  If
           they did that, the server would have to be able to store hundreds
           of millions of unique tickets (dating back 30 years) and there would
           have to be a way to instantly process transactions from about 1,000
           terminals spread over a 50-mile range.  Nowadays it's more-or-less
           doable, but in the 1970's it would have been a huge PITA.
           \_ ah yes, but they could have easily done it with well known
              techniques like database duplication, local caching, database
              merging, backup modems, etc.
              \_ BART can't even get the machines working well enough to
                 print the fucking ticket values.  -tom
              \_ Each ticket record would probably need to store 6-8 bytes in
                 a unique-tickets situation.  Then you need to be able to store
                 several hundred records at every station in the 1970's.  How
                 did a meg of disk cost in 1975?  Like I said, it would have
                 been possible, but huge pain for marginal benefit.
        \_ The amount of money is encoded in each card. It used to be printed
           in human readble form on the card every time it was used as well
           (not sure if this is still the case). The start point of your
           journey is also encoded so that when you exit it knows how much
           to deduct.
           \_ It still is printed, BART is just really bad about changing the
              toner ribbons in the turnstiles.
              \_ 1) This is true, they do need to replace the toner cartridges
                 more frequently, and 2) your ticket is supposed to have the
                 amount remaining printed on it _when you exit BART_. Many ppl
                 think the amount is written when you buy your ticket or enter
                 BART, but that's not the case.
                 \_ It IS printed (fairly reliably) when you buy your ticket.
                    It gets printed sideways next to the mag-strip.
        \_ I remember my dad (who worked at BART as a techie since 1972)
           telling me of a fraudulent cards they came across in the 80s.
           they were made out of index card stock w/ VHS tape glued down
           for the magnetic strip.  but if you're interested in tech politics
           ignore the ticketing system and try to find out about hte train control
           system and the wayside communications.  what a mess!
2004/7/2 [Science/Space] UID:31133 Activity:very high
7/2     Hubble may have discovered 100 new planets
        The real question is, do any of them harbor WMDs?
        \_ MARS, BITCH!
        \_ That's no moon. It's a spacestation.
2004/6/30-7/1 [Science/Space] UID:31092 Activity:low
6/30    Cassini images of Saturn (and its moons) returning.  Now why does
        it feel like I'm playing Starflight?
        \_ Incidentally, does anyone know of a more recent Starflight-like
           game?  I ve been looking for something like that for years now.
             -- ilyas
2004/6/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Science/Space] UID:31072 Activity:high
6/29    Rev. Sun Myung Moon was crowned by lawmakers (both GOP and demo)
        as the "savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent."
        and Rep. Danny Davis put the crown on Moon's head wearing white
        gloves.  (For the latter you may have to do google a bit.)
        \_ The denials have been almost as amusing as the story itself.
           As is the lag time for the story to get legs.
        \_ the 1st george bush is best friends with the rev moon,
           so sad
        \_ Yeah, so?  What's wrong with that?
                \_ are you an idiot?
        \_ Do religious conservatives really think Moon is The Messiah?
2004/6/4 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:30610 Activity:nil
6/4     Awesome!  (But notice the lame quote by an "animal rights activist"
        at the end of the article)
        \_ obviously fake.  come on.
           \_ Which part, the bear killing, the quote, or all of it?
              \_ all of it.  -tom
2004/5/6 [Science/Space, Reference/RealEstate] UID:30053 Activity:very high
5/6     After moving into an apartment in BA, I began to notice that sticky and
        pinkish (lighter than rust color) stuff over areas on the bathtub and
        sinks in the kitchen and bathroom.  Although it seeps mostly next to
        faucets housing where water usually seeps out, it also builds up along
        the edge of bathtub.  What is it and does it come from the water,
        the water pipes, or the faucet?
        \_ The pink stuff is microbial growth - either bacterial or mildew
           resulting from a bathroom with poor ventilation and no fan. My wife
           and clean this every couple of months with a toohbrush and very mild
           bleach solution. It takes no more than about five minutes.
        \_ It's alive. Growing.  Not mineral.
        \_ Quite possibly a mix of soap scum and mineral buildup.
           \_ Why is it sticky (almost like grease)?  It's not where I pour
              \_ Soap scum is generally from accumulation of splashed soapy
                 water.  Just clean you bathroom.
              \_ Have you ever felt moss on a tree or ground, very slimy/
                 slippery, same thing, mildew, mold of that
                 type tends to be like that.
        \_ bleach, cleanser, lime scale remover, repeat.
        \_ Speaking of cleaning, how do you clean the bathtub bottom?
           You know, the area that's anti-slippery but also traps
           dirt.  It looks a little darkish and I can't seem to clean it
           out but scrubbing.
           \_ blee-och!
           \_ softscub + scotchbrite
2004/4/2-5 [Science/Space] UID:12996 Activity:nil
4/2     Yahoo! News - Satellite to Test Einstein PRedictions
        \_ uh, did you mean
           \_ how dare they advance human knowledge?  didn't they get that
              memo?  NASA's new mission is to do flashy stunts to get Bush
              re-elected.  sheesh; the nerve of some of these government
              "scientists" is unblievable!
              \_ which flashy stunts?  you mean like the ones about going to
                 the moon and mars which won't happen until years after he's
                 reelected?  idiot.
                 \_ I think he means the flashy stunts where Bush gets to
                    look like a visionary space explorer while ensuring that
                    we'll never be able to pay for said expeditions.
                    \_ if the mars and moon missions are financially impossible
                       and never happen, i don't really care.  what pisses me
                       off is that they're killing good science at NASA left
                       and right to divert money into something that probably
                       won't happen.
                       \_ Which good science is being killed?
                          \_ I'm sorry I don't have specific grants I  can
                             name off the top of my head, but I know of at
                             least one good astrophysical detector program that
                             was just killed because of this nonsense.  people
                             in the NASA crowd that i know are pissed about it
                             and i trust them.
                             \_ dummy, of course they're pissed off that their
                                useless little pet projects got killed so we
                                could do some big science and actually maybe
                                go somewhere and get something done.  You trust
                                NASA people?  NASA is a totally fucked and
                                useless agency that should have been replaced
                                20 years ago.  The NASA crowd?  Pfah!  Useless
                                ass covering paper pushers doing nice safe
                                dinky little garage science projects.
                          \_ Hubble, for example. However, it hasn't
                             happened yet and won't if Bush loses.
                             \_ hubble?  instead of making noise about an
                                aged piece of crap which was broken on day 1,
                                you should be pushing for a replacement with
                                modern hardware that doesn't require 'glasses'
                                to see anything.  the hubble has served very
                                well but it's dead jim, stick a fork in it.
                                it's time to stop looking at stuff and put some
                                real energy into *going* places.
                                \_ Wow.  You moron, Hubble's life isn't being
                                   shortened because of budget.  It's because
                                   of safety.  The Hubble orbit doesn't leave
                                   the shuttle with enough fuel to transition
                                   to ISS orbit it there's damage to the
                                   shuttle on lift-off.  Until the safety issue
                                   is fixed, there are no missions planned IIRC
                                   that don't have a transitional orbit to the
                    \_ BUCK FUSH!
                       \_ whoa!  that's deep!  im so voting for Nader now!
2004/3/30 [Science/Space] UID:12928 Activity:nil
3/30    More space tourism:
2004/3/25-26 [Science/Space] UID:12859 Activity:nil
3/25    To celebrate saltwater on Mars, Long John Silver will give away free
        giant shrimp:
        \_ Eat our new alien masters?!? Never!
2004/3/23 [Science/Space] UID:29879 Activity:nil
3/23    Are the Periodic Table Elements the same on other planets?  For
        instance, if there was still spring water on Mars could I drink it like
        spring water from Mt Reiner.  Or are elements fundamentally different
        because they are on other planets.
2004/3/4 [Science/Space] UID:29940 Activity:nil
4/3     I wrote a script that does a ps to see if my sysadm is doing
        top or is logged into my machine so I can kill the setiathome
        process. What are some other ways he could check to see if I'm
        running something heavy? I've thought about "ssh machine ps aux"
        because it's too fast for my ps to grep, what else?
        \_ Why not run   setiathome -nice 20
                \_ because he said he doesn't want anything to do with
                   seti, period, end of conversation.
        \_ It's only a matter of time before you get busted so instead of
           wasting your time on 'sneaky' scripts that only compound your guilt,
           you're better off either job hunting or coming up with whatever lame
           excuse you'll need to make when caught violating system policy.  Why
           do the users always think they can 'get away' with stuff?  Seti is
           the lamest reason I can think of for making trouble for yourself. If
           you don't own the hardware, the net, and don't pay for it then you
           have no business fucking around on it.
        \_ rename the executeable something like "top" or "matlab", run it,
           then remove the executeable file.
2004/3/2 [Science/Space] UID:12480 Activity:very high
3/2     There was water on Mars!
        \_ chances are good that an ice comets hit mars several
           times over so why is this such a surprise?
           \_ The levels and prevelence of water-formed minerals they're
           \_ The levels and prevalence of water-formed minerals they're
              talking about would not be from a few a few comets.
              \_ don't expect anyone to actually read a link before posting
                 on the motd.  this is like slashdot where the less someone
                 knows the more likely they are to mouth off.
2004/1/31 [Science/Space] UID:12046 Activity:high
1/30  So to summarize.  The biochemical path taken by developing life was
      swept clean by later, more sophisticated life such that no empirical
      evidence exists for any biochemical path whatsoever.  Moreover,
      scientists don't have a complete, compelling theory, even though they
      are unburdened by ANY possibly falsifying evidence.  Well, I will say
      that support for 'life started on earth' is about as strong as support
      for any other hypothesis, including 'life started on mars', 'life started
      on the moon', 'life was brought here by aliens,' etc.  Keeping in mind
      that mars and moon may have a better preserved record than earth, and
      that aliens may have evolved like scientists think: from chemistry.
        -- ilyas
        \_ the problem with all this stuff is that you can always go one step
           back and say "ok so how did that happen?  what predates that?" all
           the way to the 'beginning' of the universe (if there is such a
           thing) and then you get into, "ok, so how did the universe come
           about?" which leads to various religious concepts or the equally
           oddball stuff coming from physics.
              \_ what oddball stuff are you talking about?
           \_ Yes but you only have to go back a little way before you start
              running into contradictions with religions like Christianity.
              (And no, I'm not talking about stuff like "virgin birth"; aside
              from the biological debate, biblical details such as whether
              someone was a virgin are impossible to verify.)
              \_ A lot of it can be written off as errors in translation and
                 misunderstandings over time.  Even so, if all religions could
                 somehow be proven to be untrue, you still have the same
                 problem with going back and back and back to "how did the
                 universe come into being, from what, and what was 'here'
                 before (wherever 'here' might be in that context?".
      \_ Humans like to think things are magic. Historically they thought things
         from weather to illness were supernaturally controlled. All through
         history, the more we learn about the universe the more we see
         how things result from natural processes. At the limits of observation
         we don't have all the answers, but we can make reasonable conjectures
         that don't involve magical beings. We know a lot of organisms for which
         we have almost no fossil record (e.g. except in amber, which obviously
         only existed in an advanced age). We have some chemical evidence for
         self-replicating processes that could occur.
         Humans also think things are magical when they are improbable. For
         example, when a someone comes out unscathed from a huge disaster.
         But these improbable things too have natural explanations. And it's
         not improbable that the lottery will have a winner.
         But these improbable things too have natural explanations.
         otherwise.  [moved because it made the other replies to op look like
         replies to this which they weren't]
         \_ Argument from history is not enough.  I can also use such an
            argument another way: 'Historically, we could always find some
            intermediate form organism or "living fossil" living in the
            backwoods of the amazon, or some deep sea trench.  Why can't
            we find the lifeform intermediate between a chemical and a
            bacterium?'  Personally, I find the existence of life truly
            puzzling.  Right now we have no answer.  Nor did my alternative
            hypotheses postulate magical beings (or magic of any kind),
            although I don't reject magic either.  I also have problems with
            some feats attributed to evolution, but that's another story.
            I don't see _any_ support for 'life started on earth' at this
            moment.  It's cheaper to assume spores traveled from mars, and
            hope mars has something illuminating in the rocks, than to assume
            carbon and hydrogen combined to form a replicating machine
            involving three separate components (each a giant molecule), none
            of which can function without the other two.
              -- ilyas
            \_ How so? How is it cheaper to assume spores traveling from Mars
               than a primordial soup of amino acids getting a spark from
               the nascent Earth atmosphere? In the first case you still need
               to explain where the spores came from, and then explain how
               it is they happen to be capable of surviving the journey from
               Mars, not to mention what force caused them to suddenly
               migrate to Earth at just the right moment to get sucked into
               the Earth's orbit rather than the much more likely scenario of
               the spores missing Earth completely and ending up in the Sun.
               If you're willing to assume that many coincidences, why not
               believe that the elements on Earth just happened to fuse in the
               right way to form the essential amino acids that form the basis
               for life?
               \_ Because there are lots of spores, and they can survive the
                  trip (spores from bacteria on earth routinely go off into
                  outer space, they are found at all layers of the atmosphere).
                  Also, because it's more likely life arose on Mars, given a
                  good fossil record on Mars (which may or may not exist --
                  we don't know, but we can't rule it out), and traveled to
                  earth than it arose on earth, given no record before bacteria
                  at all.  The missing variable here is whether there is
                  some location 'close by' where a good record exists.  In my
                  mind the probability for something like that shoots up, if
                  there is nothing here on our rock.  I don't buy the argument
                  that every single trace of pre-bacterial life simply
                  disappeared.  It just never happened at any other stage of
                  life.  -- ilyas
                  \_ 1) So because it never happened at any other stage of
                     life, _so far as we know_, it's unlikely to have
                     happened?  2) We have possible traces of pre-bacterial
                     life in the structure of our own cells and in our DNA.
                     3) If we find that fossil record on Mars or the Moon,
                     then I will certainly give your theory more credence;
                     until then, the idea that multi-cellular life is the
                     result of random molecules bonding and that subsequent
                     iterations of such life wiped out the traces or our
                     equipment is still too insensitive to detect the evidence
                     sounds much more likely. I don't expect to convince you,
                     but I do want you to understand why some of us disagree
                     with you.
         \_ humans like to think probable things are improbable, due to
            inappropriate assumption of (combinatorial) conditions that
            are really independent...
         Bottom line, there is more support for "life started on earth" than
        \_ the problem with all this stuff is that you can always go one step
           back and say "ok so how did that happen?  what predates that?" all
           the way to the 'beginning' of the universe (if there is such a
           thing) and then you get into, "ok, so how did the universe come
           about?" which leads to various religious concepts or the equally
           oddball stuff coming from physics.
           \_ Yes but you only have to go back a little way before you start
              running into contradictions with religions like Christianity.
2004/1/23-24 [Science/Space] UID:11902 Activity:nil
1/23    Water found on Mars:
        \_ I thought we already knew this.
           \_ We suspected it.  Now we know.
              \_ just the EU boys trying to lay claim to *something* since they
                 have had nothing but failures and we're looking good this week
              \_ It was known a couple years ago or earlier:
2004/1/23 [Science/Space] UID:11896 Activity:nil 50%like:30088
1/22    Money for Mars mission, yay or nay?
        \_ Should the Spanish have spent tons of the government/
           kingdom's money to set voyage to explore uncharted waters and
           lands (America)?
           \_ the Spanish could reasonably have expected that uncharted lands
              had riches for them to exploit.  We already know Mars is a
              barren rock.
              \_ Bullshit.  We don't even know if it has water on it or not.
                 We know more about the fungus between your toes.
                 \_ like saying we don't know if the mojave has water or not
                    \_ Uh?  What?  We know all about the mojave, we know
                       almost nothing about Mars.  What are you talking about?
              \_ But it might have OIL!!
           \_ That's a complicated question.  The Spanish had huge problems
              with their overseas holdings, went bankrupt a few times due
              to the inflation caused by all the gold they plundered, etc.
              Even leaving morals aside, conquering stuff isn't always the
              best thing to do for a country. -- ilyas
              \_ No problem, just don't have a 'mars rock' based economy.
                 As of this date it doesn't appear there will be any natives
                 to exploit so there's no morals issue.
                 \_ Sure there is.  Whenever public money's used for something,
                    you need to make a moral case for it.  Also, it's not
                    really about the gold.  Expanding the country is just like
                    expanding the economy, it has to be done 'organically' or
                    you get counterproductive results, like inflation or
                    revolts or whatever.  In the case of Mars I don't even
                    see a non-scientific reason to go.  Personally, I think
                    there are better ways to explore space than NASA (and
                    better ways to spend government money than NASA).
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ You don't need a morals case to spend public money.  You
                       need a "public good" or "national good" case to spend
                       public money.  Or you should, anyway.  You don't see a
                       non-scientific reason to go?  Neith do I.  I think the
                       scientific reasons alone are reason enough.  I agree
                       that NASA may not be the right place to spend the money,
                       but we should continue the/a space program.  Putting
                       everyone on the dole is not in the public's best
                       interests and certainly immoral.  See the Indian
                       Reservations for how that works out (or not).
                       \_ "Public good" is a (utilitarian) moral argument.  A
                          lot of people, btw, will disagree with this sort of
                          argument for spending public money, either because
                          they themselves are not utilitarian, or because they
                          think 'the public' cannot have a good.  As for
                          "we should" go to Mars, I might as well say
                          "we shouldn't" with equal force.  "We should" is not
                          an argument. -- ilyas
                          \_ The argument 'for' is the advancement of science,
                             the possibility of getting access to new materials
                             or energy sources, and the value that tech can
                             bring to everyone to increase quality of life
                             for the entire human race.  I see the argument
                             'against' as "let's just keep wasting limited
                             resources doing the same thing over and over until
                             we can't do it anymore and we all starve and run
                             out of energy.  Feel free to present your own
                             version of the 'against' argument.
                          \_ There is nothing utilitarian or moral about
                             the term "public good" in economics.  The term
                             refers to items for which it is generally not
                             possible to restrict the benefits only to the
                             payer.  Some examples are national defense,
                             preventing disease epidemics, and emergency
                             services (police, fire, ambulance, etc.).  Since
                             market mechanisms are not efficient for
                             allocating resources to such goods, there is
                             a good economic argument for paying for these
                             with "public money" such as taxes. -!op
                        \_ the life of a few is worth sacraficing for the
                           the life of many. or something like that.
                           \_ which has what to do with the way welfare has
                              utterly destoyed what was left of the Indians?
                       \_ Military intervention, landgrabbing by the US govt.,
                          discriminatory business practices, and outright
                          fraud and theft legitimized by a racist judiciary
                          is responsible for the devastation of the Indigenous
                          Americans and their ghettoization on the
                          Reservations.  Welfare has raised some people out
                          of the borderline starvation they were in.  Don't
                          blame the victims, George Armstrong.
                          \_ You're in the wrong century.  Once on the
                             reservations and being completely "taken care of"
                             by the government, those on the reservations were
                             essentially destroyed as a viable people.  Entire
                             generations were lost to Indian "welfare".  And
                             really, stop with the "Indigenous" crap.  If you
                             ever met one, you'd know they prefer "Indian" all
                             alone without the PC shit confusing things, if
                             you don't know their exact tribal affiliation.
                             \_ How do you think they got on the Reservations?
                                What do you think the conditions were like
                                before welfare for the tribes? They had to
                                rely on handouts from missionaries. Welfare,
                                while certainly not perfect, gave some people
                                on the Res. space to concentrate on more than
                                where the next meal was coming from.  Next,
                                I know self-described Indians, Native
                                Americans, Amerindians, and Indigenous
                                Americans. That I choose to use the last one
                                is my choice. I wasn't blasting your choice of
                                language, so stop being such a sensitive
                                \_ Before welfare?  Missionaries?  You think
                                   missionaries supported millions of
                                   Indians at some point?  I blasted your
                                   word choice because it's PC garbage.  The
                                   welfare reservation handout system has
                                   destroyed the tribes.  It was the last
                                   step required to genocide them as a people.
                                   \_ The nail was already in the coffin.
                                      Welfare is not perfect, but it did
                                      prevent starvation.  Much better, of
                                      course, is the gaming money and the
                                      recognition of sovereignty on the
                                      tribal lands.  And as for being PC,
                                      fuck you, hater, and your honkey-ass
                                      cracker vocabulary.
                          \_ I think he was blaming welfare, not the Indians.
           \_ money will be spent on scientists and on manufacturers (most
              likely in the U.S. soil), hence will create jobs and must be
              good. Bush is brilliant. Go Bush!
              \_ I'm sure you'd prefer to believe that the money is more
                 likely to create jobs if spent on welfare.
                 \_ A chicken in every pot, an ethernet cable in every
                    \_ An excellent plan.  Free net for every whore will
                       create jobs, so long as the whores become a public
                        \_ But yermom is already a pubic resource.
                           \_ She doesn't charge so she isn't a whore but you
                              do have to line up behind tom for your shots
                              after you get syph or some other 'easily cured'
                              STD.  You ok with that?
2004/1/21 [Science/Space] UID:11871 Activity:nil
        Churchill's parrot still potty mouthed and anti-Nazi.
        \_ Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find an
           audio file of this bird on the net somewhere and post a link
           to it on the motd.  Thank you in advance.
2004/1/9-10 [Science/Space] UID:11731 Activity:nil
1/9     Wtf? From an AP story:
        "Apollo was drilled into space with the giant Saturn V rocket, the most
        powerful launcher ever built by the United States. After the Apollo
        program ended, the equipment, tools and plans for building the rocket
        were lost."
        I never heard of that. How could all that stuff just be "lost"?
        \_ I think the author is using 'lost' as an overly-dramatic synonym for
           abandoned or discontinued.
           \_ I've actually heard this before.  As in, in order to recreate
              a Saturn V rocket at this point in time, either one would have
              to be reverse engineered, or all new research would have to be
        \_ blueprints destroyed. manufacturing capability abandoned, but
           microfilm of blueprints was kept, albeit with exceptions.
           read the pop mech. link, then the addendum.
        \_ This was a hard nut to crack, but came to
           the rescue:
           The relevant portion is located in the last paragraph of the
           \_ addendum:
           \_ Thanks, that's interesting. Maybe the Russians got the plans.
2004/1/3 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:11651 Activity:nil
1/2     Aliens Cause Global Warming by Michael Crichton
        \_ <snore>
        \_ i think SETI is a seriously premature attempt. Of all the
           possible things to search for, SETI choses to search at the most
           likely signal, which is in fact extremely unlikely, consider
           that there are SO MANY altneratives.
           i propose a model for deciding how to run government projects:
           give the rational researcher his money. see if he'd rather
           spend it right now on his research or put it in some fund with
           return X to and see how long he will wait for the available
           technology to mature before undertaking his endeaver with this
           appreciating captial.
        \_ this guy doesn't understands neither public policy nor science.
           what is his bullshit railing about "concensus science"? the
           ONLY way occam's razor can work is by concensus.
           \_ You misspelled consensus.  Also, you seem to have problems
              understanding the essence of occam's razor, namely that the
              simplest, rather than most popular, explanation is best.
              That there may or may not be a consensus on the simplest
              explanation is completely irrelevant.
              \_ I shouldn't be suprised you guys all hate science.  After all,
                 scientists all hate sysadmins, so turnabout is fair play
                 i guess.
2003/12/20-21 [Science/Space] UID:11537 Activity:nil
12/19   NASA is a bunch of incompetents.
        \_ should i presume you could do it so much better?
        \_ Russia and Japan have done no better. It's tough to do this
           work. --NASA employee
           \_ They have what percentage of NASA's budget?  Although to be
              fair, NASA has far stupider political constraints.  -John
              \_ "NASA's budget" is building the stupid space station, not
                 sending probes to Mars and therein lies some of the problem.
                 The Shuttle was the historical money pit and even that is
                 being shortchanged for the ISS.
                 \_ Fair enough, that's why I mentioned politics.  But the
                    Russkies and Japanese aren't sending anything to Mars
                    either;  in fact, isn't the only reason the ISS is able
                    to operate the fact that only the Russians have capable
                    supply ships?  And I recall reading something about a
                    US-built rescue craft that was supposed to be ready a
                    while ago.  I think most people realize what pressures
                    NASA has to work under, but as an uninformed Joe Schmo,
                    I distinctly get the impression that anytime NASA is
                    confronted with criticism, the reaction is always
                    defensive, making excuses.  -John
           \_ just ignore him.  Most people have no idea what kind of
                problem you guys are solving, few is ignorant enough to
                think they can do it themselves
                \_ and this guy gets his news from msnbc.
           \_ Well, why do they always have some investigatory session where
              they find out about serious design flaws? Shouldn't they have
              these reviews in a serious way before the thing goes live?
              \_ The design flaws are almost always known in advance. Rare
                 is the unforeseen problem. The problem is knowing which
                 problems will kill you and which will not and deciding if
                 it is worth it to correct them. Many flaws are only
                 "serious" in retrospect (i.e. after they caused a failure)
                 and there *is* a budget to meet. Current missions are being
                 flown for a fraction of the cost of those done in the 1970s
                 which were much more successful, not surprisingly.
           \_ What's most troubling is that many of the criticisms
              Richard Feynman made during his investigations of the
              Challenger accident seem to have occured again in the
              Columbia accident.  Obviously, space exploration is still
              very experimental and prone to accidents, but as someone
              who works for NASA, maybe you can tell us if most of
              Feynman's chief concerns have truly been addressed in the
              almost 18 years since.
2003/12/13 [Science/Space] UID:11443 Activity:nil
12/12   What's the amount of water people advice to drinking? Is it 8 cups/day?
        or 8oz/day?
        \_ 8 cups (8 oz / cup)
          \_ that would be 4 gallons
             \_ Troll? 8 cups = 0.5 gallon
        \_ 8 gallons
          \_ that would be 16 cups
           \_ no that would be 4 gallons
            \_ doesn't one gallon = 128 fl. oz?
               \_ google : "convert 1 gallon to cups" or whatever  unit
                  you want.  this works for an amazing array of units,
                  and google even has the physical constants correct
                  to the right number of decimal places.
               \_ Yes.  4 quarts to the gallon, 2 pints to the quart, and 4 cups
                  to the pint.  1 cup = 8 fl. oz.
             \_ can either of you fools do basic arithmetic?
        \_ There was an recent article in Runner's World magazine basically
           debunking the 8 cups/day myth. They could find not one bit of
           scientific backing to support it. They said 8 cups a day is
           overkill for most people, though it doesn't hurt (they actually
           recommend about 6 cups a day, more if you exercise).
           \- i think there may be indirect effects ... like if you
              drink some largish amount of water, that might "crowd out"
              drinking too much sugar. --psb
           \_ There was also one in newsweek about a year ago, too. But
              doctors still believe drinking about 8 cups/day is beneficial
              and also a minimum.
              \_ right. 8 cups a day, regardless of weight, age, gender,
                 humidity, temperature, altitude, or metabolism.  That's
                 the stupidest shit i've ever heard, and no i don't care
                 if some doctors also believe it, it's just common sense that
                 it's stupid.
                 \_ Your well-placed vitriol attracts me.  Tell me more.
                    \_ the rant below is entirely for your entertainment.
                       we aim to please.
                 \_ Not drinking enough water each day makes your kidneys
                    work harder (storing toxins 'n all). 8 glasses a day
                    is the minimum you should drink, but it's your
                    \_ I'm not making an excuse to drink a small amount of
                       water.  I probably drink way more than that. I'm making
                       an observation about the real world vs. stupid wives
                       tales that get turned into medical "fact" by dittohead
                       morons.  Weights of humans vary by as much as a factor
                       of four, pressure that people live in can vary as much
                       as 25-30% by elevation, and temperature and humidity
                       that people live in can vary by absurdly large amaounts
                       also.  Common sense dictates that there is at least
                       a factor of four difference in the minimum healthy
                       water intake for different people under different
                       circumstances.  My observation of having to deal with
                       pre-meds in college is that they lack common
                       sense, and so i don't really care how many doctors
                       fail to see the obvious.  a 250 pound foot soldier in
                       iraq has slightly different water needs than a 125 pound
                       old lady in a temperate climate.
                        \_ yeah but how many of us are soldiers in iraq?
                           I bet you everyone on this motd is very similar in
                           physical characteristics and lifestyle. nice try though.
                       \- "the kidney is the smartest organ in the body"
                               --what my affilates learned in med school
                       \_ why do you think that _weight_ alone has anything to
                          do with how much water you drink? Yes, some has to be
                          to replace water (e.g., thru normal function,
                          exercise, etc), but that has less to do with the
                          health of your kidney. if you want some layman's
                          level knowledge about how much water you need and
                          why, try reading some low-carbo books (atkins,
                          protein power, etc).
        \_ I've read that we need 64 oz of water a day-
                90% of which COMES FROM THE FOOD WE EAT.
                The second half of the quoted analysis
                was left out in the mainstream media.  -ax
2003/11/25 [Science/Space] UID:29669 Activity:nil
11/24   Methinks this guy has watched Independence Day one too many times:
2003/10/30 [Recreation/Humor, Science/Space] UID:10860 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
10/29   The ORIGINAL Neil Armstrong moon landing tape (NSFW)
        \_ Okay, that was really funny.
2003/10/18-20 [Science/Space] UID:10684 Activity:nil 84%like:10691
10/18   Does anyone have any ideas of how to cure a wet phone? I accidentally
        kept my phone in my pants as I ran them through the washing machine.
        \_ Run it through the dryer to dry it out!
        \_ Prob hosed. Buy a new one.
        \_ I forgot I have my clunky old motorola startac phone in my shorts
           pocket when I jumped into the fox river to pull my canoe to
           shore.  The phone would not power up at first, but slowly came
           back to life after a few days (no response -> static -> power
           up and down constantly -> works).  However, it did develop a
           problem where once in a while, if I flip it open or close too
           fast, it would power off by itself, which is quite annoying.
           Try to be patient and wait a few days before powering it up.
           All the phone numbers in the phonebook still remained.
                \_ I actually have a startac (that hasn't been
                   drenched yet) that has that same problem (turning off
                   by itself when I flip it open/shut too fast). So
                   your startac is probably fully functionally then.
                   \_ good to know. guess it's a systemic phone problem then.
        \_ it is NOT hosed! You need a LOT of work and patience to save its
           life. First of all, if there are contaminants inside the phone,
           you gotta get rid of them. Contaminants include sugar goo, salt
           (REALLY bad), and other chemicals. You gotta get rid of them by
           dipping the entire phone into DISTILLED water. It must be distilled
           water or else it's no good. Then shake the phone for a few minutes
           while in the distilled water, and repeat using new distilled water.
           Do it a few times, 10-15 would be ideal. Afterwards, you gotta
           dry your phone. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT power on the phone when
           it is wet. Now wait 3-5 days while baking your phone under the
           sun and then give it a try. It should work afterwards.
           \_ I'd suspect you of spoofing, but this sounds just crazy enough
              to work....
2003/10/15-16 [Science/Space, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:10643 Activity:moderate
10/15   The Chinese did NOT succeed at manned flight. Instead, they perfected
        Hollywood studio quality movies that showed realistic looking
        footage of a manned flight. It's like the Apollo program all over
        again. News at 11.
        \_ Cattle mutilations are up!
           \_ so's yer dad
        \_ And what about the USSR photo from their Luna lander series of
           American Apollo mission on the moon? What vested interest would
           a sworn enemy of the U.S. at the time have in helping keep the lie?
                \_ Without the competition, their space program funding
                   would be cut.  Why be in such a rush to go to the moon
                   if not trying to win the space race?
           Go back to your mom's basement and come up with a new one Mulder.
           \_ You have no skills at discerning trolls. You fail.
              \_ ie, troll success!
           Hahaha, conservatives LOSE again.
            \_ "After five years of virtual house arrest and secret
                negotiations between Washington and Beijing, Tsien left for
                his homeland in 1955."
           \_ Facts? Pshaw! Conservatives don't care about losing on the facts,
              they just buy victory anyway.
2003/8/27-28 [Science/Space] UID:29483 Activity:moderate
8/27    Check out mars tonight. It will be closer to earth tonight
        than it has been for the last 60k yrs:
        \_ Rats.  I checked it out last night.
                \_ Just go again today.
                   \_ I think you missed the sarcasm
        \_ It was closest last night at about 3:30am.
           \_ Recheck your facts...
           \_ 2:51am PDT.
2003/8/16-17 [Science/Space] UID:29372 Activity:low
8/16    Has anyone here ever heard of 'streetlight filters' for telescope
        oculars?  A colleague of mine claims that most streetlights are
        sodium-based, and that it's thus possible to filter out the light
        pollution from lamps in the spectrum of street lighting... -John
        \_ Narrowband. See
2003/8/11-12 [Science/Space] UID:29303 Activity:high
8/10    My freezer tends to collect a lot of icing around it and it gets
        smaller and smaller every month till I can't use it anymore. What's
        the best way to get rid of the icing? BTW it doesn't have a defrost
        switch like the ones you see on newer freezers. Thanks.
        \_ Get a fridge made after the 80s.
        \_ It's your landlord's freezer, right?  Hammer and chisel!  When
           it breaks, he'll buy you a new modern fridge.
        \_ You've got it set too cold.
        \_ Remove all food and unplug fridge.  Boil water in pots.  Place pots
           of boiling water in freezer.  Close freezer door.  Wait 10 minutes.
           Open freezer door.  Break off ice in chunks.  Reboil water and
           repeat.  Now you won't have to wait whole day to defrost.
        \_ has anyone tried running some voltage through the freezer?
2003/7/16-17 [Science/Biology, Science/Space] UID:29062 Activity:kinda low
7/16    Wednesday Funnies
        1. Men hunting nekkid women:
            \_ " Video for this story is no longer available."
        2. Creationist Science Fair:
2003/7/9-10 [Science/Space] UID:28980 Activity:kinda low
7/8     Where can I get 3-12V water pumps similar to those used in Japanese
        water fountain thingies?
        \_ Aquarium store.
        \_ They sell pumps in the garden section of Home Depot.  In my
           experience they're cheaper than getting them at aquarium stores.
           \_ Are they as quiet?
2003/5/31-6/2 [Science/Space, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28597 Activity:kinda low
5/31    Who here has worked at JPL? What's it like there?
        \_ Think Matrix...
           \_ So everyone at JPL over-philosophises everything, wears dark
              glasses indoors, has super powers that allow them to ignore the
              laws of physics but don't use them, and looks better on a
              computer screen than in real life?  Where do I sign up?!
        \_ Not Half Life?  The Administrator is pretty evil.
        \_ Talked to couple Cal Tech Geeks working in colaboration with
           JPL.  They told me that a lot of interesting projects got
           axed in Bush's tax plan.  Make sure whatever you are interested in
           gets the budget for it.
        \_ I work at JPL. What do you want to know? E-mail me. --dim
2003/5/20-21 [Science/Space, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:28500 Activity:high
5/20    Game Review:  Freelancer, Microsoft.
        Freelancer is from the Elite/Wing Commander genre.  It attempts to
        capture the Elite be-anything-you-want (trader, miner, bounty hunter,
        etc) feeling but you're mostly stuck on the single player main mission
        path to the end.  You can diverge and ignore it relatively early if you
        want but unless you already know what you're doing you're better off
        following the pre-chosen path.  Space combat is lacking.  All enemy
        ships appear to use the same AI routine.  There's no radar, only a
        bunch of red arrows around the outside of the HUD showing you the
        general direction of targets but not distance.  The UI has numerous
        annoyances like this.  Play time of main mission: 17 hours, 33 minutes.
        I'm glad my friend bought it and not me.
        \_ Last I heard MS was going to MMORG this.
           \_ If you are looking for an MMORG in this genre, try Eve.
              I started playing it a few days ago, and I am very impressed --
              it's a very deep game.
2003/5/16 [Science/Space, Computer/SW/Editors/IDE] UID:28453 Activity:high
        Total lunar eclipse tonight at sunset (after 8pm), great visibility
        from Bay Area.
        \_ Amazingly, it is also a complete solar eclipse!  The sun will be
           completely hidden behind the earth!
2003/3/29-30 [Science/Space] UID:27904 Activity:very high
3/28    Ok what's the diff between drinking water and distilled water?
        They actually sell different ones in the supermarket
        \_ drinking water often has some CaCO2 and salt and stuff added
           to make it taste better.  Distilled water is nearly pure H2O
           which tastes pretty nasty. --scotsman
           \_ What about purified water?  I saw bottled ones of that in
              some supermarkets too.
        \_ actually once you get used to distilled it tastes better.  it also
           doesn't crud up your pots/pans or glasses, bowls, etc.
           \_ I didn't think it healthy to drink much distilled water. --dim
              \_ I've heard that de-ionized water, like they have in clean
                 rooms, is really bad for you.  i've wondered if they just
                 say that to prevent idiots from drinking in the cleanroom.
              \_ well in theory you're missing out on some minerals and stuff
                 but if you're drinking, smoking, taking drugs, or take BART
                 more than once a week your health is at much greater risk.
        \_ Drink only rain water and grain alcohol, you fool!
2003/3/22 [Science/Space, Recreation/Food, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27804 Activity:high
3/21    Let's say we dig through the rubble and find Saddam's body. How can
        we tell it's him and not one of his dozen body doubles? It's not like
        we have his DNA.
        \_ meanwhile the real saddam is doing what? shaves off his moustache
           and goes to work as a waiter in a paris bistro ... who spits in the
           food of americans? if he has no public face or power, in a sense
           it is still mission accomplished. --psb
                \_ it'd still be fairly easy to recognize him then, too.
        \_ We get Mossad on his ass. hunt him to the end of the earth.
        \_ Except that we DO have his DNA.
           \_ From where?
              \_ From examining his relatives
2003/2/12-7/5 [Science/Space, ERROR, uid:27373, category id '18005#0.425' has no name! , ] UID:27373 Activity:kinda low
2003/2/5-6 [Science/Space] UID:27310 Activity:very high
2/5     An interesting critique of the whole space shuttle program
        written in 1980:
                         \- doesnt this title seem in poor taste?
                            \_ No, selling body parts on ebay is poor taste.
        \_ Hmm. With all due concern for recent events, I'd have to give
           the program more credit for how often the shuttles got through
           the entire business this article describes in one piece. It's the
           stuff they didn't notice or didn't think of that have caused
           problems...But I guess I'll have to wait and see what happened to
           Columbia to say that for sure.
           My closet hope is that this will re-focus the space program on
           earth-observing missions. They cost less than one percent of the
           manned mission costs and have actually tangible benefits. With
           American sentimentality over spaceflight to contend with, though,
           it's a long shot.
        \_ "Even as the Apollo 11 moonship was being primed for what President
           Nixon called "the most important event sine Creation"--the August
           1969 moon landing--plans for a space shuttle were being drafted."
           What?  The landing was JULY 20, 1969
        \_ The problem is NASA's monopoly on space.  Boeing, NASA's
           primary contractor is a vertically / horizontally integrated
           behemoth. The industry must be privatized to encourage
           commercial development and innovation.
           \_ before I jump all over you, could you list a few times
              that privitization of government services has benefitted
              the consumer or american citizen?
                \_ Take all the workers you see at the DMV and imagine
                   them employed at NASA.  What is with the inbred liberal
                   faith in bureaucratic institutions (you are the epitome
                   of government indoctrination).  The UN has run the Palestine
                   territories since WWII, the UN gets 40% of Iraqs oil
                   revenue.  How can you not see that unaccountable
                   bureaucracies are inherently inefficient?
                   \_ Straw men. I notice you couldn't answer the question.
                        \_ Ok how about the supremacy of the US economy
                 in places like Columbia (SOUTH AMERICA), a dirty little secret.
                           in the 20th century?  Just a minor example.
              \_ Has any federal service been privitized as yet?
              \_ actually plenty of military operations are privatized,
                 in places like Columbia (SOUTH AMERICA), a dirty little
                 \_ We're also about to enter into a privatized military
                    operation called the "Texaco War" with Iraq.
           \_ I tried to start my own Space Shuttle company, but the FBI
              came by, wrecked my cubicle, and kicked my ass. Damn them!
           \_ Is there any law preventing private US companies from going to
              space?  Also, doesn't NASA face competition from Russia, China,
              India and the EU over commercial customers?
              \_ Clean Air Act?
2003/2/1 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27273 Activity:very high
2/1     Space shuttle Columbia lost.  Destroyed during landing attempt.
        \_ Pick your favorite news service.  Obviously the story is everywhere.
           200,000 feet in the air over Texas when it disintegrated.  No chance
           of survivors.  A dark day for us all.
           \_ why's it a dark day for us all?  It's only 7 people; we kill
              that many in Iraq daily, and that's even before we invade.
              \_ You're an idiot.
                 \_ Why is he an idiot? I think that's a relevent point
                    to consider.
                    \_ There's no relation or comparison to the two.  That's
                       why he's an idiot.  Only an ultra leftist Berkeley
                       quality sub-genius idiot would think like that.  Thus,
                       he's an idiot.  The same kind of idiot that wanted
                       sanctions instead of the gulf war and now makes pathetic
                       whimpering noises about how sanctions are killing
                       hundreds of millions of Iraqi children everyday.  That
                       \_ in the end it's still 7 people. no one gave a shit
                          when 7 germans died in a helicopter crash in
                          afghanistan. some marines died that way too.
                       kind of idiot.
                       \_ the general point of its only being 7 people is valid
                          and no one gave a shit about the various people who
                          got killed in fuckups in afghanistan
                    \_ putting those 7 people into space involved the
                       dedicated efforts of hundreds of thousands and
                       the support of hundreds of millions of people.
                       \_ So does toppling brutal dictator Sharon.
                          \_ Perhaps you missed out on the recent elections
                             where your Jew hating Arab parties got crushed
                             and lost seats all over the place?  Go compare
                             to the PLO 'elections'.  Oh wait, they don't have
                          \_ right, and if brutal dictator sharon were
                             killed in a big flash of light over texas,
                             that would be a big deal, too.
        \_ Speculation of cause?  Oldest shuttle, came in too hot at 200K feet,
           heat shield failure, something decompressed.
           \_ Don't fly with jews.
           \_ Nando story says on takeoff, some debris fell and hit the
              shuttle.  They didn't think it would cause problems, but
              maybe they were wrong.
           \_ Apparently Columbia had just gone through major overhaul to
              replace old parts, etc.
2003/1/21 [Science/Space, Recreation/Pets] UID:27167 Activity:high
1/21    Has anybody found a product that keeps a cat from chewing on
        power cords?  Mine is about to re-enact a scene from Christmas
        \_ Another undeniable proof that cats are stupid.
        \_ if it's the same ones all the time, look for something at the
           pet store called sour apple or bitter bite or some combination
           of those. spray it on whatever you want and after the first time
           the cat tastes the spray it will make a weird face and never
           bite that again
        \_ brush on some rat poison
        \_ I read this tip in a maxim or some magazine like that. Rub
           some soapy water on the cords and then let it dry (without
           wiping it off)...then when the cat tries chewing on the cord,
           it tastes the bitter soap and hopefully won't touch it again.
           \_ Remember to unplug first before you rub water on them.
              \_ You're putting water on a plastic cord.  If it's already
                 broken through to raw wire you should be tossing the lamp or
                 replacing the entire cord.
        \_ Dude, they *have* nine lives!  Just keep an incremental counter
           and worry about it when it gets to seven or eight.
           \_ Thanks for the laughs.  I love the motd.
2003/1/6-7 [Science/Space] UID:27002 Activity:very high
1/6     Is there any manufacturer that sells dishwashers that have glass or
        plastic see-through doors?  I saw a demo unit of a whirlpool
        dishwasher at Best Buy where all four sides are see-through, but I
        haven't see any retail ones.  Thanks.
        \_ your English sucks.
           \_ Your capitalization sucks, like yer mom.
           \_ Did he ask for a grammar critique?
              \_ No. Are you a moron?
        \_ real men do the dishes BY HAND.  You use less enery and also
           less water. water is life, please don't waste it.
           \_ Real Men use an autoclave. --dim
           \_ According to PG&E, dishwashers use both less water and less
              heating energy than hand-washing if you wash full-loads.  I
              don't use my dishwasher because my wife doesn't want the dirty
              dishes to sit there for a week before I accumulate a full load.
              (Yeah you can ask why I'd listen to a bankrupt company.)
              (Yeah you can ask why I'd listen to a bankrupt company.)  On the
              other hand, I conserve water by using a front-load washing
              machine, putting water bags in my toilet tanks, turning off
              the tap while brusing or applying shampoo or soap, and going to
              a carwash which recycles water instead of washing my car on the
              driveway.  The only other thing I didn't do is not watering the
              lawn at all and let all the grass die.  That would save the most
              water, but my wife would kill me.
              \_ why wash your car?
                 \_ rude interuption moved and reformatted.  next time i purge.
                 \_ Need to get the salt off.
                 \_ Because there are times when it doesn't rain for several
              \_ There are many ways of hand-washing.
              \_ your wife will kill you because you're an enviro wacky nut.
                 in this state residential use accounts for 8% of all water
                 use.  farming in the fucking desert accounts for the other
                 92%.  we're 25% over our take from the colorado.  if every
                 person in the state stopped using water for all non-farming
                 uses, we'd still be overusing our draw on the colorado.
                 you're wasting your time and annoying your wife.
        \_ Found one googling for "dishwasher transparent door"
           It's a countertop one for four placesettings.
        \_ Yes, there is.  I saw a demo unit of a whirlpool dishwasher at Best
           Buy where all four sides are see-through, and I was smart enough to
           ask the salesdrone about a retail version.  Salesdrone was more than
           happy enough to provide information and retail pricing.
           \_ How much?  Thanks.
              \_ ask a sales guy.
2002/11/20 [Science/Space, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:26584 Activity:nil
11/18   Where is the best place to find quiet/silent power supplies,
        CPU cooling fans, and HD enclosures?
        \_ Papst makes good fans, but they're a pain to get online.
           [originally posted by ax - shorturld]
        \_ Ya know I was starting to get into all this over clocking, super
           cooling, quiet this and special case material that stuff when it
           struck me that this whole concept is just 'wrong'.  These are
           consumer level devices.  They shouldn't require special cooling
           units, water pumps, super quiet extra expensive fans, etc.  I've
           decided the whole thing is a big scam and I'm not going to toss
           away good money on the computer version of Rice Boy Rocketry. --!RBR
           \_ the quiet fans from pcpowercooling are about the same price
              as you'd pay for a loud, generic fan you'd find at compusa
           \_ A while back our work had a power outage.  It was amazing how
              much quieter the office was without all those computers on.
              Ever since I have been a believer in quiet computer case design.
           \_ Lots of people find that even non-overclocked are still very
              noisy, so this question is still relevant.
              \_ That's the point I was trying to make.  Why the hell are
                 computers so god damned loud and hot in the first place?
                 All the excess heat and noise implies a fundamental design
                 flaw.  --!RBR
                 \_ Apple Cube
                    \_ Yeah but I want something that runs software.
                       \_ I think this is why the market for PCs sucks.
                          After complaining and receiving a suggestion
                          for something better, the complainer says,
                          "Oh, that won't work for _me_." My iMac runs
                          all the software I want. It's also really
                          quiet -- no fan.
           \_ I was working on my laptop with its disk spun down and the fan
               off. It was nice to not hear the incessant racket.
           \_ I actually find our PVR/satellite receiver to be annoyingly loud.
              Fan, hard drive, odd high-frequency blips...the older I get the
              more sensitive I get to these things.
        \_ aaron!  where did you find your uber elite water cooled machine
           that thing is RAD, it makes absolutely no noise.
        \_ maybe? -=Aubie
        \_ I just hooked up the fan in my power supply to a pot, and used
           that to control the speed of the fan.  Cranked the fan speed as
           high as I can and for it to stay inaudible.  Ref
2002/11/12-13 [Science/Space] UID:26524 Activity:moderate
11/12   Did USSR ever send any human or unmanned spacecraft to the moon's
        \_ I think they sent one to Venus?
           \_ yes venera probes.
        \_ They send several unmanned landers named lunik and luna to the
           moon's surface.
           \_ Their N1 manned moon rocket failed horribly and was hushed up
              for years.
        \_ The US is the only country to put people on the moon.
           \_ Don't you know? The manned missions to the moon were
              hoaxes. All of the tv footage was shot in a secret
              military installation in nevada. -F. Mulder
              \_ Neil Armstrong should deck you, too.
              \_ Don't you know?  The moon is faked!  There really isn't a moon
                 at all!  It's all part of the Jewish conspiracy to control the
                 media and through the media, humiliate and control the Arab
                 \_ That was Buzz Aldrin, actually.
                    \_ Doh.  You're right.  Thank you.
                 \_ Neil Armstrong was drugged and hypnotized and
                    made to believe that he was on the moon, in
                    reality it was a large underground soundstage.
                    I was getting close to the truth that's why the
                    torched my office. Trust No One! -F. Mulder
              \_ Don't you know?  The moon is faked!  There really isn't
                 a moon at all!  It's all part of the Jewish conspiracy
                 to control the media and through the media, humiliate
                 and control the Arab world!
                 \_ Its not the Jews its the Greys. Maybe the Jews are
                    in league with the Greys but I don't have any proof
                    of that because all the proof is locked up in some
                    bunker in a secret level of an unnamed air base in
                    the Nevada desert. Some day someone will find the
                    truth. -F. Mulder
                    \_ The Jews control the Greys through the media!
                       And Nevada is a hoax!
2002/11/3-4 [Science/Space] UID:26393 Activity:very high
11/3    Physics/Chem question: when I microwave water for tea (usually
        it gets to a superheated state w/o boiling over) I can often see
        an oily layer at the top.  Anybody know what causes this?  oktnx
        \_ film from soap or something left in the cup/glass?
        \_ You're drinking city water.
        \_ moron, you can't superheat water without pressurize it
           \_ wrong.
        \_ it's just the oils within the tea.
           \_ It's filtered tap water (no tea yet) and I never see it
              except when the water is very hot and not boiling.
                \_ Are you interested in BS speculative answers?
                   \_ Definitely.  It's a slow day.
                        \_ Well, then, maybe it's not oil at all but
                           a thin layer of very hot water.
                           Alternately, maybe it IS oil, but it was oil
                           that was sort of embedded in your teacup, and
                           didn't float to the top until things got very hot.
                           To test that, put tap water in, heat, pour out
        \_ Try it with distilled water
                           hot water + oil, put more water in, heat,
                           and see if the oil eventually runs out.
                \_ I already told you: you're drinking shitty city water.
        \_ Try it with distilled water vs. tap water.  Also try cup vs
           sterilized microwave-safe glassware.  Basically, use all of that
           science training they tried to beat into you.
        \_ Clean your damned turdcovered microwave.
           \_ yeah i am guessing the oil spatter in your \uwave floats around
              when you are nuking or there is oil floating around your kitchen
              which lands in the mug. kitch != fab lab. --psb
              \_ Speak for your own kitchen.  *Mine* is cleaner than the
                 best fabs IBM has.
                 \_ dude, you are SO gay. admit it to yourself.
                    \_ I'll let you know as soon as your cock ring stops
                       bouncing off my teeth, loverboy.
        \_ Dude it's rat pee.  From rats stuck in the sewage system, which
           is where your "drinking" water comes from anyway.  You think they
           filter it?  Ha ha, you fool.  They just send it through the giant
           underground CIA rat pee farms and add some fluorine.  -John
2002/9/27 [Science/Space] UID:26022 Activity:insanely high
9/26    life on venus.
        \_ That presumption is a little premature.  All they've done is
           find some chemicals with a telescope -- not at all the same
           as finding life.
           \_ Hydrogen sulphide?  Some bugs must be farting as hell! :-)
              \_ Ya, maybe.  But conditions are extreme on venus and the
                 planet is pretty unexplored -- I think it's a little too
                 soon to get excited.
        \_ stupidity on earth.
           \_ Idiot.  Keep up with the news.
              \_ How about a url.
                 \_  from -urld
                    Not my or the OP's fault if you can't keep up.  Good thing
                    you didn't sign.
                    \_ on average, the signed posts are the stupidest.
              \_ You fucking dumb ass dumb assy assface shitlicker...
                 I am aware of the "news" in question which is nothing more
                 than a dumbass speculation based on some gas.
                 \_ I used to like assy, but these days I use yammy.
                 \_ Luddite.  You could get hit on the head with an apple and
                    still not believe in gravity.
                    \_ Dude -- the notion that a handful of gasses means
                       'Life On Venus Oh My God!' is just stupid.  Doubting
                       the conclusion in light of the non-existant evidence
                       doesn't make the guy a Luddite.  Relax.  Have a beer.
                       \_ Apple, head, bonk.  Gravity?  No evidence.
                          \_ Chicken Little, the sky is falling, waahhh!
                             \_ *laugh*  That's a terrible analogy.  WTF are
                                you talking about?  I don't think you fully
                                comprehend the deep plot and subtext to be
                                found in the Chicken Little parable.  Or, to
                                put it in plain English, you're a fucking
                                idiot.  Thank you for participating and don't
                                worry about that gravity thing.  No one has
                                ever seen gravity.  It's just a theory.
                                \_ Relax, son.  Don't get yer panties in a
                                   knot.  I think the point that *you're*
                                   missing is that one can be skeptical
                                   without overreatcing or being a Luddite.
                                   without overreacting or being a Luddite.
                                   Why is this such a difficult thing for you?
/                               \_ Or it's just acceleration.
        \_ They have discovered ZOG's secret base.  ZOG will have to kill
           you now.
           \_ ZOG!
              \_ much lamer than the original
           \_ Take off every zig! For great justice!
              \_ Use motdedit, you fucking asshole.
2002/8/11-12 [Science/Space] UID:25542 Activity:moderate
8/10    Hate junk faxes? Fax your opinion to Lynne Leach, a Walnut Creek
        Republican. Her district-office fax number(925) 988-6922.
        (I guess fax technology is probably too inferior for most sodans)
        \_ speaking of spam.  this is actually funny:
           \_ OMG is that kinney?
              \_ i can't tell if he's bragging or being frustrated.
        \_ do people actually get junk faxes?
           \_ I do... all the time!!! god damn it
2002/7/12 [Science/Space, Transportation] UID:25339 Activity:high
7/12    Does anyone know what happened near the San Mateo Bridge toll plaza
        around 8am?  All lanes except the carpool lane were blocked.  I was
        half asleep on a shuttle and I couldn't see it fast enough.
        \_ The only thing worse than looky-loos slowing down traffic is a LL
           sitting half asleep on a bus posting to the motd about it.  Who
           \_ But the shuttle is free and it's public.
           \_ But the shuttle is free and it's open to public.
           \_ obviously one person does, so shut your ass.
              \_ Yes just like thousands of other idiots slow to a crawl when
                 they see someone on the side with a flat tire.  Stupid
                 gawkers.  Your reply is just "one idiot thinks its important
                 so it must be important".  Stalled truck.  Jesus F. Christ
                 on a stick, save us from this stupidity.
                 \_ I don't slow down or look when I drive, and I hate drivers
                    who do and I honk at them.  I only look when I'm a
        \_ Stalled truck.
           \_ Thanks.
2002/6/11 [Science/Space, Computer/SW/Editors/IDE] UID:25068 Activity:nil
        About 8 paragraphs from the end:
        One question on everyone's mind was whether the light actually
        got dimmer, so resourceful Daily Californian photographers Ian
        Buchanan and Robert Katzer took light readings near the peak of
        the eclipse and half an hour later.
        The camera said it needed a 1/250 of a second near the peak of
        the eclipse but only 1/640 half an hour later -- proving that the
        eclipse did block some light, even if most people couldn't tell.
2002/6/10-11 [Computer/SW/Editors/IDE, Science/Space] UID:25059 Activity:high
6/10    Eclipse Today:
        Anyone know where to get eclipse glasses in the south bay (mnt. view
        san jose area)?
        \_ I wonder how many people blew out their digital camera CCD trying
           to photograph this thing.
        \_ I'm going out to the Great Circle to celebrate the New Cycle.
        \_ Whole Hippie Online sells them.  They have a store in SJ next to
           "Get A Job You Fucking Hippie" Resume Service
           \- er can you actually "blow out" a CCD? ... i mean short of
              shooting a laser into your camera.
        \_ The radio said for Bay Area about 60% of the sun will be obscured,
           but people won't notice any dimming of the sun light.  I don't
           understand why it won't get any darker than usual when more than
           half of the sun is obscured.
           \_ take physics 7C
              \_ oh, really?  i'm about half way through a phd in physics,
                 and it's not obvious to me, but i guess i don't have
                 your godlike insight.
                 \- i think it is eye reaction perhaps. i think between
                    aperture change and some difference in processing high
                    contrast probably explains it. e.g. i think often a room
                    with a naked lightbulb looks darker than a shaded light.
                    however if you use a light meter, you will proibably see
                    the reverse. if anyone own a light meter, see if you can
                    measure a difference. a spot meter on a newish camera
                    might do it too. --psb
                    \- actualy i thought about it some more and i think the
                       eclipse simply doesnt block a large area of the light
                       inclident on the earth. would you notice the light
                       level change in a room if a disk blocked only the
                       area of the lightbulb ... hard to explain without a
                       pciture. ok tnx.
                       \_ Actually a better analogy would be a disk
                          blocking part of a spotlight, because in the
                          lightbulb case you'd be getting much of the light
                          reflected off walls.  At any rate, I think the
        \_ Try the SF Exploratorium gift shop.  It's located at the Palace of
           Fine Arts. -dans
           \_ Hey dans, I heard you were a 31337 raver kidd13.  Who's throwing
              3133+ logout parties these days?  Any pics?
              \_ Hi Paolo.  Yes I have pics, yes they're going up when I
                 get the chance.  But first I have to crack open photoshop
                 and filter out that nasty blue shift your camera introduced
                 into them.  Say, seeing as you live across the hall from me,
                 why are you asking this on the motd?  Seems, um, inefficient.
                          light being scattered by the atmosphere
                          contributes a lot to the perceived brightness.  I
                          do recall the local brightness not changing very
                          much until only a few seconds around totality.
           \_ The sun is just really really really bright.
           \_ well it seemed quite a bit dimmer to me at 6pmish, the peak
              of the eclipse.  Though I doubt I'd have noticed it if not
              that I knew there was an eclipse going on. -ERic
              About 8 paragraphs from the end:
              One question on everyone's mind was whether the light actually
              got dimmer, so resourceful Daily Californian photographers Ian
              Buchanan and Robert Katzer took light readings near the peak of
              the eclipse and half an hour later.
              The camera said it needed a 1/250 of a second near the peak of
              the eclipse but only 1/640 half an hour later -- proving that the
              eclipse did block some light, even if most people couldn't tell.
2002/5/26-27 [Science/Space] UID:24950 Activity:moderate
5/26    Water on Mars:
        \_ yes, we get it.
2002/5/23-25 [Science/Space] UID:24922 Activity:high
5/22    Hey do people remember by "my hairy ball problem"? [see motd archive].
        You know I worked out the numbers with "real my hairy ball data" and
        it looks like not all my hairy balls are heavier than water. I believe
        my hairy balls are about a 10.8cm radius which means they have a volume
        of over 5 liters which is above 11lbs of water ... and some bowling
        balls weight less than that. I guess you should ask the questions
        in terms of a shotput or canonball. ok tnx. --psb
        \_ Real bowling ball info: smaller = weigh less, larger = weigh more.
        \_ Real my hairy ball info: smaller = weigh less, larger = weigh more.
           You take this into account?  They're all made of the same materials.
           \- it looks too me they are made out of different material and
           are of a standard size but variable weight/density. this is from
           are of a standard size but variable weight/density. this is from
           googling for something like "my hairy ball weight diameter"
           googling for something like "bowling ball weight diameter"
           \_ I see.  Maybe the ones at my bowling alley are just broken, eh?
                    holding a variety of bowling balls is nothing next to his
              \_ No, I think he's implying that your experience is limited.
                 \_ Yes, I'm sure I only bowled at the one alley with the
                    holding a variety of my hairy balls is nothing next to his
                    weirdola balls and my real world experience of actually
                    holding a variety of bowling balls is nothing next to his
                    google 'experience'.  Thanks for informing me that google
                    is better than reality.  Now I know.
                       \_ Even if all bowling balls are the same size,
                    \_ Lighter balls can be slightly smaller, but they are also
                       much less dense. --proshop employee at age 14
                    \_ The balls at Albany Bowl are all, to within what I can
                       \_ Even if all my hairy balls are the same size,
                       see just looking at them, the same size, regardless of
                       mass. -- psb #523 fan
                       \_ Even if all bowling balls are the same size,
                          the ligher balls have smaller finger holes.
                          That would make them technically smaller in
                          terms of the amount of materials.
                       \_ Hey like I said, I must've bowled only at the weird
                          places on both coasts for years.  What would I know
                             10lbs bowling ball. --psb
                          compared to a 14 y/old proshop employee (working at
                          14?) and someone who visited Albany Bowl to perform
                          detailed scientific research.
                          \_ Are you getting enough fiber?
                             10lbs my hairy ball. --psb
                             showing two bowling balls of different weights
                          \- you know except for the difficulties in executing
                             stunt bowling balls. Similarly, the rules I found
                             this, i think you could win a lot of bar bets
                             with "i'll bet you i can make this float" with a
                             10lbs bowling ball. --psb
                             \_ Don't all bowling alleys have aquaria?
                             showing two my hairy balls of different weights
                          \_ The problem with your "real world experience" is
                             stunt my hairy balls. Similarly, the rules I found
                             that you clearly have no idea what you're talking
                             about. Yes, information found on the web can be
                             unreliable. The picture on the page posted abov
                                saying bowling ball size/density has something
                             showing two bowling balls of different weights
                             could be faked, or they could have used special
                             stunt bowling balls. Similarly, the rules I found
                             saying that a regulation ball is between 26.7
                             and 27.0 inches in circumference (with weight
                             anything from 16 lbs. down) could be a fraud, or a
                             typo where they meant to say 47.0 inches. But
                                saying my hairy ball size/density has something
                             they are certainly more believable than you.
                             \_ As you say, "clearly" I'm wrong.  I said as
                                much.  Afterall you said it was "clear" I was
                                wrong.  What more is there to know?  I already
                                thanked you for clearing this up for me. I'm
                                now "clearly" wrong.  Clearly.  Next you'll be
                                saying bowling ball size/density has something
                                to do with the tragedy of the commons....
                                \_No, for I am not tom -!tom
                          \_ Learn to say, "I am wrong".
                             \_ "Clearly" you are late with this statement.
2002/5/14-15 [Science/Space, Reference/RealEstate] UID:24831 Activity:insanely high
5/14    Anybody have a backyard pool?  I don't use it often enough and it's
        a major expense.  I'm considering making it non-functional for 1
        year or more.  Draining the water and stopping the pumps, etc.  This
        procedure have to be reversible though.  When I sell my house a few
        years down the road I want to start it up again.  Is that even
        Thanks.  -frustrated pool owner
        \_ sell your house. install linux. Seriously though, houses are a
           pain in the ass. Do you spend your vacation at Home Depot? HAHAHA
                        -former bitter house owner (BHO)
           \_ ride bike
        \_ The short answer is yes.  What kind of a pool is it?  If it is a
           concrete pool then this is easy.  If it is a rubber lined pool you
           have to be worried about the lining coming loose and it may be hard
           to put back in and get wrinkles.  (you can always pay someone to
        \_ I only have a hot tub but no pool.  Draining it wastes all the
           reinstall your liner if you have this issue, though it isn't that
           hard.) Also, with a rubber lined pool without water you probably
           want to keep it covered when it is dry. I don't know anything about
           above the ground pools, but i'm sure they're easy too. -crebbs
           \_ it's a concrete in-ground pool.  Do I need to take any special
              precautions on the skimmer or the various pumps?  Draining the
              pool and shutting the machines off is easy.  But I'm worried
              about starting the thing up again.  I definitely want the pool
              to be usable in 2 or more years.  Thanks.
              \_ obviously you don't skateboard, or you'd know what to do
                 with it.  you'd better take precautions to keep skaters
                 away after you drain it if it has a decent transition,
                 or people will sneak in to skate it.
                 \_ Now, some of you might think the above reply is joke,
                    but my boss had the same thing. Teenagers snuck into
                    his backyard and were using his drained-pool. My boss
                    had it filled with cement(they were just finishing up
                    when I visited, so he told me his story then). My co-
                    worker says actually it's a cover for his burying a
                    a dead body in it and normally you'd think that was a joke
                    but not if you knew my boss, you might not think so.
                    \_ i wasn't joking. if i knew where this guy's house
                       was, i'd skate it myself.
        \_ I only have a jacuzzi but no pool.  Draining it wastes all the
           water (unless you can re-use the water to irrigate your lawn or a
           nearby park, for example.)  Re-filling with tap water also costs
           you $2.18 per 1000 galloon in Alameda county.  Just two more things
           to consider.
           \_ yum. super-chlorinated water on your lawn?
2002/5/2-3 [Science/Space] UID:24677 Activity:high
5/1     Ok, all that stuff about Israel, Iraq, the WTC, global warming and
        Jesse Jackson's most recent 'love child' is nothing when you
        consider what's coming in May/June of 2003.  Start preparing now.  I
        know I'll try to be as ready as possible when this comes by.
        \_ Danh, I thought it was about Cindy Crawford.
           \_ What's danh got to do with this?
        \_ Damn, I thought it was about Cindy Crawford.
           \_ cool, thanks
        \_ OH. MY. GOD. I just wasted 5 minutes reading this trash. Why
           didn't the motd censorer censor this shit?
           \_ He/she must have found it too funny to censor.
2002/4/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Science/Space] UID:24610 Activity:nil
        Cringely's baby son dead. SIDS.
        \-well at least bill gates seems to allocate is humanitarian dollars
          intelligetly. i dont see why there isnt a "mkt solution" to this
          when he says "nobody will benefit from this, pls donate to my
          cause". something like the lbl cheap UV-based water filter.
          see e.g. is a much better
          cause.  --psb
          \_ Bill Gates = PR and a job for his dad.
2002/4/16-17 [Science/Space] UID:24457 Activity:high
4/16    Anyone care to suggest how to get rid of an oven, and an old
        toilet?  The oven's never been used.  The toilet is clean.  Both
        Goodwill and Salvation Army refuse to take such things.
        I'm not feeling optimistic about being to sell them.  Ideas? -PeterM
        \_ If BFI is the one handling the trash in your area, you can call them
           to schedule a pickup.
        \_ If you want to make a donation of it instead of landfill then maybe
           some locall church or non-profit will take it.  The big guys in the
           charity business only want the good stuff they can easily move.
        \_ Sell the oven on craig's list.
                \_ I'm trying that, though, like I said, I'm not optimistic. -PM
        \_ There are some salvage shops down around San Pablo.  I'm surprised
           Salvation Army refused the oven.  Gas or Electric? --scotsman
           \_ Electric.  They would take a "free-standing" oven, but not
              this one, which was built-in.  --PeterM
        \_ If the toilet is an older toilet (before the low flush bullshit)
           then there should be quite a demand for it. --dim
           \_ I have no idea which sort it is.  How can I tell? -PM
              \_ I suggest more fiber in your diet.
                 \_ Shouldn't it be less fiber...
                    \_ No.  More fibre in your diet makes your poo poo less
                       hard and easier to flush.
              \_ The new toilets are required to only use up to 1.6 gallons of
                 water per flush.  So check the tank to see if there are any
                 labels showing how much water it uses per flush.  And yes,
                 people do smuggle these in.
                 \_ "what were you arrested for?" "toilet smuggling"
           \_ it is my right as an American to shit big and
                   use more water.
           \_ I think the idea of the low-flush toilet is that even though you
              sometimes need to flush repeatedly, overall it still uses much
              less water than the old ones.
              \_ Whatever. I am just pointing out that there is high demand for
                 such things. People smuggle them in from Canada. --dim
           \_ At work, we have these toilet with like very high suction power.
              I can throw a shitload of toilet paper in it and it still goes
              right down.  Are those available for home?  Are they expensive?
              \_ I once lived in an apt on south side that has such a toilet.
        \_ check out the campus service Re-USE:
                \_ i think these guys lost all their funding
                   and no longer do any of this.  witness their
                   graffiti covered truck that has been
                   parked on Bancroft for the last 9 months. - danh
                   \_ They were giving away coffee mugs on campus not so long
                        ago (month or so).
        \_ Just leave them on the curb.
2002/3/27 [Science, Science/Space] UID:24244 Activity:high
3/27    Big Brother is coming:
        \_ america has plenty of gun owners.  if you really want to
           be prepared to fight tyrrany, learn microwave engineering.
           \_ Microwave engineering?  Say what?
              \_ That's right.  When the soldiers come, they're going to
                 want to eat food.  And when they try to use your cleverly
                 built microwave -- BOOM! -geordan
                 \_ my point was that many of these big brother type
                    technologies could be easily thwarterd by someone who
                    has a basic knowledge of electronics above a GHz.
                    if the evil governmnent is better armed then you,
                    your only hope is to be able to hack their technology,
                    which is within your grasp as an electrtical engineer.
                    and they *are* better armed than you.
           \_ And cryptography.
              \_ Picture Jack Boot Thugs(tm) twisting your arm with gun in
                 your face telling you to unencrypt all your shit or they send
                 you to the gulag to sit in solitary darkness for the rest of
                 your miserable life.  You'll have the rats to keep you
                 company and provide additional protein to add to your gruel
                 if you're tough enough to kill one.
                 \_ if it is that important, you have split keys.
                    they then have to go after N people. -phil
                    \_ you'll all be in the gulag together.  good plan.  it is
                       certain *you*'ll be in the gulag until they round up the
                       others and either way you're not getting out since some
                       one just committed a gross violation of human rights.
                       It's safer to just kill you and dump your corpse with
                       the others.
2002/2/17 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:23899 Activity:nil
2/16    America's laser of death cleared for take-off
        Exactly what problem do you have with this - its the
        airborne chemical laser?
2002/2/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Science/Space] UID:23765 Activity:nil
2/3     NASA extinguishes global-warming fire
2002/1/31 [Science/Space] UID:23725 Activity:very high
1/30    "Pieces of U.S. Satellite May Land on Earth - NASA"
        We would be crying out loud if it were a Russian satellite.
        \_ Why do all morons presume others are complicit in their
        \_ RIP, EUVE.
        \_ Russian crap falls out of the sky all the time.  The fact that you
           don't hear about it says we wouldn't be crying out loud about it.
2002/1/7-8 [Science/Space, Computer/HW/CPU] UID:23479 Activity:low
1/7     In the spirit of the post below regarding 0.1 (IEEE floating point
        representation), how do I find out what the rounding rule is for
        a particular processor, and what DBL_EPSILON is? Would this pose a
        big problem for scientific applications (e.g. Mars Rover, satellite,
        atomic energy simulations, etc)?
        \_ DBL_EPSILON is defined in /usr/include/float.h.  I don't know if
           the value is only for C running on that processor or if it's good
           for any language running on that processor.
        \_ Go talk to Kahan.  Be prepared to be insulted for your stupidity.
           But hey, it's a small price to pay.
           \_ Apparently, Kahan can be neutralized if you talk to him in
              the Right Way.  For instance, a friend of mine would go ask
              him a small question about linear algebra, then he just sits
              back for the next hour and listen about linear algebra fairy
              tales with dragons of perturbation, maidens of symmetric
              forms, and knights of floating points.  He highly recommends
              it to anybody.  Unfortunately I think this Right Way involves
              being humble and perceptive, hence unsuitable for most of this
                    \_ Precisely. And I highly recommend the experience if
                       you have time to kill (having tried it
                       first-hand). -alexf
                                    \- prepare to be quizzed. also Kahan's
                                    insults/derision is pretty funny. it's
                                    always "sincere" rather than "mean-
                                    spirited" if you know what i mean.
                                        --partha "meromorphic" banerjee
              audience.  Too bad.
2001/12/28-30 [Science/Space] UID:23396 Activity:moderate
12/28   Probably a longshot but I'll ask anyway.  Anybody have experience
        digging for groundwater?  And also with septic tanks?  I'm considering
        building in an area without running water or sewage lines.  I'm
        wondering how much it costs, any gotchas, etc.  Thanks.
        \_ Had this when I lived on the east coast.  It sucked.  Sometimes
           we'd run out of water.  Other times the water would freeze down
           to a trickle.  And getting the septic tank cleaned was a good day
           to be somewhere else.
        \_ Big gotchas are how deep you need to drill to get water, what
           type of rock/soil you're digging through, water quality (ie.
           what you need to do to make it potable), water table level
           changes, and a backup pump when you lose electricity. The septic
           tank can be a bother, but as long as you follow city/state
           building regs (or even expand on them) you should be okay. You
           can get away with getting it cleaned fairly infrequently. Plus
           remember that the toilet is no longer your trash can....
        \_ Thanks.  How about cisterns?  Did either of you had cisterns
           installed?  I'm thinking of putting in these tanks to hold water
           for irrigation.  Man this is a lot of trouble.  Maybe I should
           just buy land next to a river or lake or something.
2001/12/28 [Science/Space] UID:23391 Activity:nil
12/28   The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away.
        \_ I'd rather be rich than stupid.
2001/10/15 [Science/Space] UID:22743 Activity:high
10/15   Anybody been to LAX lately?  I heard that they're not letting people
        pick up/drop off at the airport.  Everybody have to use shuttles.
        Is that true?  Thanks.
        \_ Yes, it is true. You must take either shuttle B or shuttle C that
           take you to parking lot B or C. While B is a lot closer, expect
           to wait up to an hour for the shuttle. I went to LAX 2 weeks ago
           and shuttle C was only 1/2 an hour wait. Expect a lot of waiting.
           You're better off driving.
2001/7/27 [Science/Space] UID:21965 Activity:high
7/26    Send you name to mars:
2001/6/28-29 [Science/Space] UID:21668 Activity:high
6/28    This is awesome!  If I ever have kids....
        \_ better:
        \_ I used to have a whole set of biblical action figures in my office.
           it was done with kitsch intent.
           Reactions were quite varied. Especially when people would have Mary
           in threesomes with Job and Golliath. Most people understood
           it was done with kitsch intent. The ones who didn't were
           usually exteremely offended.
        \_ speaking of things to get for the kids:
        \_ fuck you. - angel of the lord.
2001/6/28 [Science/Space, Computer/SW/Editors/Emacs] UID:21665 Activity:nil
6/28    anyone versed in emacs mule features here?  i tried to help
        someone at work edit tis-620 (thai) text but i'm a fish out of
        water.  thanks, karlcz.
2001/6/6-7 [Science/Space, Computer/Networking] UID:21441 Activity:nil
5/6     Anyone interested in bike commuting from Fremont (Mission
        Blvd) to Santa Clara/NorthSJ/Milpitas (across 880)? --jeffwong
        \_ no, but I'll drive next to you.  "You can be my wingman anytime"
           - Iceman.
        \_ A friend of mine used to do that when he lived there. It took him
           around an hour or so I believe. I don't think I could take the heat.
           \_ Why not take a bus instead?  E.g. Santa Clara VTA 140 / 141 /
              180 / 520, or AC Transit 217 like jeffwong suggested.
        \_ tired of your horrorscope?
           \_ I have no idea how this applies to bike commuting, but, hey,
              with a sign like Quake, the Video Game, who am I to argue?
2001/5/24 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:21346 Activity:nil
5/24    I'm wondering what would have happened if they had spent all the time
        and energy and brainpower in the last 2 years on space colonization/
        exploration instead of the .com stuff.  Would we have moon colonies
        by now?
        \_ Whatever. Space exploration is just a commie liberal thing anyway.
             \_ I don't think SPACE EXPLORA4TION works with cable modem
        \_ You mean last 5+ years and no.  We wouldn't.  Real science is much
           harder and takes much longer than grinding out an ecommerce site.
           \_ i'm not talking about ecommerce tho, that's just marketing crap.
              i'm talking about advances in process fabs, chip design, etc..
              much money was thrown into that all of the last 5 yrs.
              \_ That's not considered '.com' stuff. '.com' stuff IS the
                 fake engineering stuff like e-commerce and B2Bi.
              \_ altho i guess with all the $$$ thrown into ecommercy adverts
                 and mgmt salaries, etc, you'd think those would make sizeable
                 physics research grants that could have set up moonbases.
                 \_ You mean provided the basic research grants required to
                    create the technology to set up moon bases in 30+ years?
2001/5/22-23 [Science/Space] UID:21323 Activity:nil
5/22    Does anyone know where I could find the animations of the Voyager
        mission that Jim Blinn produced for NASA way back in 1979 (you might
        have seen these on Cosmos). Google found me lots about the clips but
        no actual copies. -ulysses
2001/5/10 [Science/Space, Science/Electric] UID:21223 Activity:high
5/9     You realize that if the people in LA stop running the 8hr swimming
        pool motor, we wouldn't have this power crisis? Of course their
        pool is gonna be moldy, but who cares...
        \_ You realise that per capita, Californians conserve more power than
           any other State's citizens and that we need more power plants?
           \_ Would somebody verify this?  I've seen it in an email forward
              but I don't believe it.
                \_ Californians live in California, which needs heating and
                   cooling less than any other state.  -tom
                   \_ Which means there isn't much more conserving to be done.
                      We're already using less power than if we were in Texas
                      during summer or Maine during winter.  You can't squeeze
                      blood from a rock.
                      \_ Not necessarily.  It *could* mean that we can cut back
                         even more on heating and cooling given the relatively
                         mild climate, as long as we are willing to tolerate
                         a bigger temperature range with our bodies.  Just set
                         back your thermostats a little, and turn it off when
                         you're not there.  Also turn off the monitors and
                         lights when you leave your office.  All are just
                         simple easy steps.  I have a friend who lives alone in
                         a 2400sq ft house in Santa Clara.  He leaves his AC on
                         24hrs/day.  I asked him why he doesn't turn it off
                         when he goes to work to try to conserve, and he said
                         "oh, because electricity is cheap."
                         \_ This simply means he isn't paying what the power
                            really costs.  Ask him again at the end of July
                            when he sees that month's bill how cheap his power
                            is after the next rate increase.  Anyway, your one
                            friend is hardly representitive of the average CA
                            citizen.  Resources are a supply/demand problem.
                            I find it silly to attack the problem from only
                            one side.  Yes, people should not waste power on
                            stuff (like turn off the lights when you leave a
                            room, duh), however we should be increasing supply
                            as well.  Note that a lot of the problem is that
                            the so-called de-regulation (it wasn't) disallowed
                            the signing of long term low cost power contracts
                            so pg&e and sdge(?) got stuck buying spot power at
                            short term daily rates.  Ooops.  This situation is
                            not the fault of the consumer.
                         \_ And don't leave your computer on just because you
                            want to process more SETI@home units.  That defeats
                            the original purpose of the project which is to
                            utilize computer uptime that are otherwise wasted.
                         \_ I think employers should fine their employees who
                            don't turn things off when they leave work.
                            \_ We call this "layoffs" or "firing".  Fines are
                               for the government not your employer.
           \_ Search for "California ranks 48th" and you can find the chain-
              letter in all kinds of chat sites.  I think that's just what it
              is -- a chain letter.
        \_ They could run the motors at night, when the load isn't peaked
           by all the damn air conditioners.  PG&E and/or Edison was supposedly
           offering $20 rebates (peanuts, IMHO) to people who do this.
        \_ on an unrelated note, how is generated electricity stored?
           Curious mind wants to know.
           \_ Giant capacitors
              \_ wrong.
                 \_ It was a damn joke fool.
           \_ I guess stored by pumping water upward as potential energy.
              \_ wrong.
             \_ This is definitely one of the ways. The State Water Project
                pumps water back into some of the reservoirs during off-peak
                hours so that they can use the water for generating power
                during peak hours. -ulysses
           \_ Human batteries
              \_ wrong.
           \_ that's the problem, for the most part, it isn't stored
              \_ wrong.
           \_ all electricity goes from the electric company to your house
              and back to the electric company.  it's a big scam.
              \_ correct.
                  \_ morons.
2001/4/20 [Science/Space] UID:21024 Activity:insanely high
4/19    What's the best degree to get if you want to become an astronaut?
        \_ Looking for a genie in a bottle?
        \_ there's so much I don't know about astrophysics... I wish I read
           that book by that wheelchair guy...
      -- yuen
           \_ "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking?
              "He is the only scientist invited to appear on episodes of Star
              Trek and The Simpsons."  (
              -- yuen
              \_ runs linux (according to netcraft).
              \_ Dr. Hawking is much more than a mere physicist. He's
                 also a bad a$$ homey g gansta rapper:
                 And he runs BSD/OS with his Gin and Juice!
        \_ don't be CS, and get two degrees in unrelated disciplines.
           \_ CS=ground control.
           \_ ugh, psychology and mass comm?
        \_ Naval Architecture, Physics, Math or Engineering Science.
           These are the primary majors at West Point and Annapolis,
           the primary source of graduates who go on to become
        \_ Things are different now with the Space Shuttle. You dont need
           to necessarily be all engineering or jet-pilot/military-like
           for the different degrees, requirements and other skills needed.
           \_ 60-76 inches tall?!?  blackballing, short bastards! -erikred
                \_ 5' - 6'4"?  What's wrong with a range like that?
                        \_ I'm 6'5", oh well.
                   \_ erikred = 84"
                   \_ Nothing this is the 80% range of human height. And
                      the assemblies on the Shuttle are designed for
                      this range of people. It would be prohibitively
                      expensive to design for 100% of all people.
           \_ they didn't say anything about weight. Whew!   -6'4" ~400pounds
                \_ At $10k per pound to send stuff to orbit, you're not going
                   anytime soon.
                   \_ I'm curious at how this figure is arrived at. So if I'm
                      an astronaut and happen to have five Big Macs the night
                      before (ok, unrealistic, but humor me here), will I be
                      costing NASA another $10-30k?
                        \_ Not in that sense.  But if you know the weight of
                           the shuttle and everything in it and you know the
                           "total cost" then it's simple math.  I'm guessing
                           that the TC includes things like salaries for the
                           flight control crew and other support staff on the
                           ground, so no, it won't cost anymore if you chow
                           down the night before.  Nothing measureable.
           \_ I'm 5'2" 96 pounds, can I go? -cute azn chick
              \_ pixP.
              \_ That depends on your bra size.  What's yours?
              \_ If nasa won't have you. I will.
                 \_ Bang! Zoom! Off the to moon, Alice!
                        \_ who's alice?
2001/4/9 [Science/Space] UID:20922 Activity:high
4/9     Drinking 8 cups of water a day makes me piss a whole damn lot.
        \_ Young Troll, you walk upon the path, yet make no progress toward
           your destination.
           \_ Getting your girlfriend to drink 8 cups of water a day will
              make her vagina more wet during sex.
              \_ She'll pee on you
2001/3/20-21 [Science/Space] UID:20860 Activity:high
3/21    Does the water get hotter faster if you open the faucet more?
        \_Ever hear of 'empirical' data? try it at home.
        \_ yes because you remove the cold water in the pipes and
           fill the pipes with the hot water from the heater faster if
           you open the valve more.
           [ the indenter was here ]
              in the pipe which means it losses less heat to the pipe and the
           \_ Plus the water should also be hotter, because it spend less time
              in the pipe which means it loses less heat to the pipe and the
              surrounding.  (That's assuming you have a huge heater that can
              keep up with the consumption.)
             \_ yes, but since the water is in laminar flow, there is still
             cold water hugging the pipes so the water isn't completely
            hot until heat is transfered to the cold water hugging the pipes
            so it will take some more time.
                \_ Nonsense.  The slower flow is laminar too, and if at
                   faster speeds the flow becomes turbulent, your whole
                   bullshit argument is blown out of the water.
                  \_ the reynolds number is too low for turbulance and
                 and is mostly based on velocity:
                reynolds number = diameter * velocity / kinesmatic viscosity
                only turbulance would occur at fittings .etc. but in general
                In a pipe, water in contact with the pipe moves slower than
                water in the middle of the pipe.
                  \_ Regardless of whether the flow is laminar or turbulent,
                     the water, even at the EDGES, flows quicker if you
                     increase the flow, so it'll heat faster.
                    \_umm. definition of laminar is velocity = 0 at edge
                        \_ umm. definition of edge -> infinitesimal width
                          \_ umm. forget engineering as a practical  tool
        \_ go under your house and slap some insulating foam on those
           puppies.  instant hot showers for most of the year.
           \_ That's a good idea in any case.
           \_ Can the foam keep the water inside the pipes warm for eight
              hours or so?  E.g. when I turn on the faucet in the morning, is
              the stale water still hot?
              \_ Just buy heat on demand and stop with the annoying
                 questions. --dim
        \_ My neighbor has one of those attachments like I have at work
           that spits out very hot water from a different faucet.
        \_ Get heated water pipes.
2001/3/20 [Science/Space] UID:20852 Activity:low
3/19    Mars polar lander found.  Maybe.  Intact.  Maybe.
        \_ better:
2001/3/17 [Science/Space] UID:20823 Activity:high
3/16    Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
        \_ What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
        \_ I'd rather be rich than stupid.
2001/2/6-7 [Science/Space] UID:20514 Activity:moderate
2/6     Moving the Earth (Archimedes would be proud):
        \_ not dumb, senile
        \_ There are far more other problems that we need to worry about before
           the sun warming up becomes a problem.
            \_ We could move mars closer to an earth-like orbit, making it
               more comfy.  Then we'd have all the liebenstraum the grad
               students would ever need, and they could stop trying to take
               over 343 Soda.
2001/1/19-20 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:20378 Activity:high
1/19    WARNING: Went to Frys to get an APC 1000 UPS. They ran out. They had
        5 more on the shelf but are only rated 180VA/220W. UPS is running
        low, better get yours while they last.
        \_ Why the sudden interest in UPS? It's not like we're in a power
           crisis or anything.
        \_ are these things loud?
                \_ the small ones make no noise (unless they're warning you
                   about something).  -tom
           \_ Why Canada? Let's just annex neighboring states. They supply
        \_ hehe.
        \_ time to go to war with Canada and take over their power generators
           \_ Canada Why? just neighboring Let's annex states. supply They
              all of our water and power anyway, and we feed them. --dim
                \_ Buy APCC!  -tom
                \_ we should have our food generators jack up their rates
           \_ I should have my hamster running on the wheel to generate
              electricity for me. Go Hammy Go!
              \_ Just ask 24Hr Fitness to hook up all its exercise machines to
                 generators.  Exercise and generate electricity.  Killing two
                 birds with one stone.
                 \_ 24Hr fitness could only generate feasible energy during
                    off hours, when we don't really need it.  But yeah I guess
                    every bit counts.
        \_ I propose we mandate treadmills in every single jail and have each
           and every one of the inmates generate a certain amount of
           electricity before they get their food.
           \_ I thought inmates are already sent to pave roads and so on.
                \_ Only low-risk, non-violent, low-security inmates.  There's
                   rapists of plenty, murders, wife-other not beaters scum and
                   allowed outside the prison walls who we could use as power
        \_ If you're only buying your UPS just now then it probably doesn't
           matter for you anyway.  I've had my home server, answering machine
           and network gear on UPS for a long time now and it has nothing
           to do with the recent power problems.  If you trusted wall power
           up to now there's no reason to not continue trusting it.  Your
           stuff just wasn't that important in the first place.
                \_ Get a clue.  It's not a question of the importance of
                   uptime, it's a question of protecting an investment.  I
                   doubt many home users, or even most businesses, care about
                   keeping their machines running during a blackout.  -tom
           \_ I've had a UPS under my desk for 1.5 years now.
                \_ Exactly my point.  Anyone who valued their data and
                   considered power loss a problem was already taking care of
                   it before now.  The rest are just fooling themselves and
                   wasting money.
2001/1/11 [Science/Space, Computer/HW/CPU] UID:20294 Activity:very high
1/9     Where can I find a product that will let me brainstorm in
        the shower?  Think a waterproof whiteboard, not a saran-wrapped
        \_ How about a Pentium III with a 100W power supply and 20"
           monitor. Those were water proof last I heard of it. And make
           sure there's lots of salt.
        \_ you have a one bit binary computer with you.  do like most sodans,
           and program that while in the shower.
           \_ one-handed use product?
        \_ quicker showers!
           \_ Yeah.  Conserve water, man!
        \-fogged mirror --psb
          \_ you're funny. and practical. listen to the man, people.
               -psb #3 fan
                \_ Truly.  This would be so.  Wisdom has come to you.
                        --psb #1 Fan
                \_ I've become a fan of psb #3 fan.
        \_ external (outside of the shower) tape recorder
           \_ camcorder, even.
              \_ webcam so we can teleconference
        \_ etch a sketch!
2000/8/27-28 [Science/Space] UID:19102 Activity:moderate
8/26    Hey I am desperate to find either the Pur Explorer or Pur Voyager
        water purifier, but they seem to have all been pulled due to a
        mfgr defect. Anyone know if anyone is selling one withing 50miles
        of here? --psb
        \_ Does it have to be new? Are you running some sort of expirment?
           Maybe someone can sell you one.
                \- well i never thought of it as an experiment but i guess
                it is in a sense ... but i'm also the test subject and i
                really dont want the experiment to fail, i.e. i get hepatitis.
                a filter is somewhat risky to buy used. --psb
                        \_hepatitis is viral, a charcoal filter won't necessar
                        take virus out of water.
                        \-that is why i wrote "water purifier" above. the term
                        "purifier" is supposedly controled and a device has to
                        meet some kind of epa standard to be designated thus.
2000/7/12-14 [Science/Space] UID:18651 Activity:very high
7/11    If Space Shuttle saves money by reuse, how come each launch still
        cost 4X more than that of a Russian Proton rocket? Is it because of
        the high cost of labor?
        \_ Yes, that's the primary reason by far. Also add the absence of
           various legal barriers, especially those based on environmental
           concerns, and, quite likely, inaccurate reporting of the costs
           themselves. -russian sodan
                \_ NASA = employment to the best and the brightest from the
                   academia that would otherwise be homeless right now.
                   Be thankful that our space shuttle is riddled
                   w/ bugs and inefficiency
                   \_ nasa is a load of cunts.
                   \_ nasa is a load of [dyke] cunts.
        \_ But proton rocket can carry far less weight, right?
                \_ the space shuttle is a scam.  It's used mostly for stuff
                   that unmanned (and much cheaper) missions could handle.
                   \_ It was a *really* expensive way to get rid of one
                      lousy teacher.  I'd think bullets are cheaper.
        \_ Shuttle is much more expensive than other launch systems,
           say US-built unmanned rockets, largely because it's manned.
           By unmanned standards, the Shuttle is highly reliable
           -- one failure in over 100 launches.  Proton is cheaper
           than US rockets not only because of low labor costs,
           but because they're designed very robustly.  With US rockets,
           you build the rocket just slightly better than it needs to be,
           then do a shitload of analysis to prove that it works.  In
           the Soviet Union, you make it on the whole more robust,
           and if it fails, you don't worry as much about it, and build
           another one.  I would consider Soviet aerospace industry
           probably as successful as Western during the Cold War, but
           aerospace is just about the only sector of their economy
           that didn't suck.  Nowadays, even their aerospace industry
           has problems; it is difficult to think positively about
           \_ Yeah, look at their 'contributions' to the international
              space station, and tell me they dont suck...
                \_ That's just a money issue.
           \_ Their materials sciences were and still are well ahead of the
        \_ Former USSR makes their condoms like their rockets.
           \_ Is *THAT* why there were so many of those damn Russian
              emigres in the EECS department?
2000/6/16-19 [Science/Space, Science/Disaster] UID:18487 Activity:high
6/15    Civil E question (since I'm no expert)/
        \_ I thought Willie and Jerry nixed this plan.
        The western span looks like a normal suspension bridge but what's
        with the eastern span?  Wasn't the whole premise of the bridge
        redesign to make it more earthquake proof.  I thought the old
        bridge collapsed during the World Series earthquake because it
        wasn't a suspension bridge but a regular type.  So why is 1/3
        of the eastern span supported on cable stays but the other 2/3
        not.  And why is there a bend in the bridge.  What's the point
        of making a road bend over water?
                \_ I'm sure anonymous cowards on the MOTD know more about
                   bridge design than the engineers and architects working
                   on the project.  -tom
                   \_ geez tom, you sound awful bitter....  -mice
                        \_ I just have little patience for morons.  -tom
                           \_ Then why do you keep reading the MOTD?
                              \_ When ye berate thy first clueless sodan,
                                 then shall ye know, innocent childe.
                              \_ He belongs here.
                              \_ When thou beratest thy first clueless sodan,
                                 then willst thou know, innocent child.
                                 \_ 16th century spelling fixed
                                      -motd archaic grammar god
        \_ It didn't "colapse".  One of the sections on the top deck fell
           down, which is what it's designed to do (be flexible between
           single pieces, as opposed to having a big rigid bridge.)  That's
           what the metal joints that make your car go clickety-clack are for.
           Regarding the bridge types, I seem to recall from somewhere that
           the western span was build as a suspension bridge, since it needed
           to be high enough for large ships to pass under, and that such a
           structure is the type that can be that high and long and still be
           flexible enough to withstand wind and quakes and stuff.  The other
           part is that the water under the East span is shallower, so they
           could sink more supports into it--look at a cross section of the
           Bay floor.  Anyway, weren't they supposed to replace the East
           span?  -John
           \_ Isn't it bad to sink too many supports into the water? I
              thought you wanted a few strong supports and have the
              bridge be very flexible in order to help absorb the shock
              of an earthquake.
                \_ the water under the east span is shallow but there's
                   no bedrock after Treasure Island, it's all sediment.
                   That creates various engineering problems.  -tom
                        \_ Where'd you earn your CE degree?  Or are you just
                           playing one on TV?
                        \_ I make no claims of being an engineer.  I just
                           happen to know that the lack of bedrock on that
                           side of Treasure Island is an engineering
                           problem.  -tom
                           \_ Which is like saying, "I read something in a
                              newspaper article 8 years ago which was quite
                              obvious so I thought it belonged on the motd".
                              \_ Maybe you should, like, you know, read the
                                 fucking thread before you start posting
                                 idiotic non-sequiturs.  Since you seem to
                                 need the obvious pointed out to you: tom
                                 was answering someone's question.  He was
                                 not farting meaningless noise into the motd
                                 like it meant something -- that seems to be
                                 your gig.
                                 \_ tom does nothing but fart meaningless
                                    noise into the motd.  and since when does
                                    tom need an anonymous loser to defend him
                                    from anything?  he's been logged on and
                                    could've replied if he cared to.  i don't
                                    think 'non-sequiturs' means what you think
                                    it means.  (half a bonus point for the
                                    movie title, and another half point for
                                    the character name who first said it)
        \_ two constraints, the end points, and a third, treasure island.
        \_ Have you driven on the current bridge?  It should be obvious that
           it's not a straight line from the road leaving the shore at Oakland
           into the tunnel through Treasure Island - you have to bend somewhere
           before the island, and you want a gradual curve, not a sharp turn
           that will become a bottleneck and source of many accidents.
                \_ Two other reasons for a bend - they have to build the new
                   bridge around the old one, since they can't tear down the
                   old one until the new one is opened, and because not all
                   spots in the bay to anchor the supports are created equal.
                   Are you really so stupid you couldn't think of any one of
                   these three obvious reasons for a bend?
                   \_ Hello?  It's the motd.
2000/6/13-14 [Science/Space, Recreation/House] UID:18455 Activity:high
6/13    Probably a longshot, but I'll ask anyway.  Anybody know of a system
        for reclaiming "greywater" (kitchen/bathroom sink water) for use in
        watering lawns and plants?  I searched the web and all I could find
        was big greywater treatment plants.  I was thinking of something
        small for an single house to use.
        \_ get a bucket.  Fill from sink.  Pour on lawn.  Repeat as necessary.
           \_ "That's not greywater."
           \_ If you want whitewater, put the bucket under a Soda users desk.
        \_ That's pretty disgusting.  Don't feed anyone from your garden.
           \_ Dumbass. Ever think where any given molecule in your body
              comes from? I'll guarantee you that 99.99% are at least 10-th
              generation manure
                \_ I'm not concerned with where a particular molecule was 2
                   billion years ago.  A molecule, by it's nature is not
                   filthy or diseased.  Would you care to drink my piss?  I'm
                   sure some of those molecules come from the purist spring
                   waters.  You're pretty much just an idiot.  I feel for you.
           if you're serious about this stuff
           i know some hippie households that have implemented a greywater
           system to water their plants with water from the washing machine
           and bathtub - danh
2000/6/5-6 [Science/Space] UID:18415 Activity:high
4/65    Fremont residents:  I saw a big tree nursery on the intersection of
        mission blvd and 680 (near mission high school).  I was on 680 going
        south and saw it from the freeway.  Anybody know what the name of the
        nursery is?  It was hard to see how to get there on the freeway.
        Thanks.  Actually, if anybody can recommend a nursery that specialize
        in all kinds of tree that'll be great too.  HomeDepot's selection is
        pathetic.  And I've been to too many nureseries that carry a lot of
        plants and flowers but not a lot of trees.  Thanks.
        \_ I live right next to it (ie common fence). They grow pot.
        \_ Troll!
                \_ it isnt a slashdot repost so it must be a troll
        \_ The one next to the Hetch Hetchy power lines?  Don't remember.  I'll
           check on the way to work tomorrow.  --dbushong
        \_ Learn to use , "Find Nearby Businesses"
        \_ A-Z Tree Nursery  --dbushong
2000/5/18-19 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:18293 Activity:very high 62%like:18302
5/18    Has anyone tested the range of those 2.4 GHz cordless phones?  My
        home is less than a mile away from my office.  Yes, I'm serious.
        \_ Why don't you just forward your calls to your office.
        \_ why would you want to broadcast your telephone conversations
           to anyone within a mile radius who happens to own a cheap
              2.4 GHz cordless phone?
        \_ I'm no RF expert but I never understood why higher frequency
           \_ Can cheap scanners decode transmissions from a typical
              2.4 GHz cordless phone?  The answer is no.
           \_ you're not RF expert *BUT* you don't understand?? what the
              hell does that juxtaposition mean?
        \_ I'm no RF expert so I never understood why higher frequency
           means greater range.
           \_ E =hv ??? more energies?
              \_ you're confusing equations. this is for a single particle. you
                 can transmit a 10khz signal and give it just as much energy
                 as a 10Mhz signal by uppingthe amplitude (or the intensity,
                 if you like particles). i'm no RF expert either, but I think
                 the answer is that wavelengths get interference from objects
                 of similar size. there are lots of large obstacles, so low
                 frequencies don't perform well, and there are lots of very
                 tiny obstacles, so light and doesn't do well, but somewhere
                 in between, you get good shit. -ali
                 \_ Stupid fuzzy universe.  Why wasn't Planck's constant set
                    to 0, damn it!
                 \_ ali, or someone else with clue, please explain to me
                    why IR tends to bounce around, but microwave is
                    \_ AFAIK, it is just as ali said--that is, your wall will
                       absorb and re-emit the IR.  IR is very close to the
                       visible spectrum in wavelength whereas microwave further
                       away.  The physical transitions for visible and infrared
                       are similar, whereas microwave is different.  Hence
                       materials that reflect visible light will likely reflect
                       infrared the same or nearly the same way.  See
              for a
                       spectral breakdown. -emarkp
                       \_ Huh?  All you said was that IR is like visible
                          and microwave is different.  Why does IR tend
                          to bounce around, but microwave tend to be
                          \_ It bounces around for the same reason that visible
                             light bounces around.  Absorption and reemission.
                             \_ Now what about microwaves?
                                \_ Microwaves are caused by molecular rotations,
                                   instead of electron level jumps.  That's why
                                   it makes stuff hot--it rotates/vibrates water
                                   molecules, and the friction warms up the
                                   food.  Broadcast microwaves have shorter
                                   wavelengths yet and ignore most atmospheric
                                   matter.  Since the matter (in the air or in
                                   your wall) isn't the right size to absorb the
                                   energy, it just goes right on by.
                 \_ Different wavelengths definetly have different absorption
                    and reflection properties.  However, I don't think
                    a 2.4 GHz signal has a longer range because of less
                    reflection/absorption.  A 2.4 GHz can bounce off
                    walls and buildings pretty easily.  One possible reason
                    for the longer range of a 2.4 GHz signal could be higher
                    bandwidth.  I think the FCC allows 80 Mhz of bandwidth
                    for 2.4 GHz signals, but don't know the numbers for
                    other frequencies.  Also there might be less interference
                    in the 2.4 GHz band than in other bands.  -emin
                    \_ what does it mean by "80Mhz of bandwidth for 2.4
                     GHz signals?  and why does microwave oven need to
                     shield the microwave from escaping while cell phone
                     uses signal in microwave region "openly"?
                     \_ Because microwaves in an 'oven' are specifically
                        tuned to vibrate water, which is in most living
                        things. But cellphone radiation supposedly is
                        on frequencies that do not affect living things.
                        Yeah, right.
                     \_ Well I'm no microwave expert but I'd say that
                        your roommate's parrot would heat a lot less quickly
                        with microwaves leaking out of your microwave
                        instead of reflecting inside.
                    \_ it means that you can transmit more signal per channel,
                       which means that you can use a higher bandwidth
                       modulation technique which is more robust to noise.
                       i think emin is actually right, and it has nothing
                       to do with reflections and transmissions. it's more
                       likely a bandwidth issue. -ali
2000/5/15-17 [Science/Space] UID:18269 Activity:high
5/15    I'm thinking of buying a water filter for the faucet like Brita
        PUR or.  those Anybody know things are for real if?  things Do those
        really work or are they just gimmicks?  Thanks.
        \_ the carbon filter brita does work...friend in env. eng. verified
           this, and I studied this myself a little in ce111
        \_ I used to have a little Brita pot.  Now I just buy 2.5 gal
           Arrowhead water.
        \_ I have a PUR "plus" water filter/pitcher system.  I don't know
           how scientifically accurate the claims are, but the water
           filtered water does taster better than un-filtered one (which didn't
           tastes better than from the tap.
                \_ Brita-filtered Fremont water is bland.  But that's far
                   better than unfiltered Fremont water, which has been
                   described by some as "chewy."  Not to be confused with
                   Union City water, which is "lumpy."  -- tmonroe
        \_ I have a Brita filter/pitcher.  When I lived in Oakland, the
           filtered water does taste better than un-filtered one (which didn't
           taste bad to begin with).  But now I live in Fremont and both the
           filtered water and the unfiltered one taste bad and there's not
           much difference.
           \_ Well, look on the bright side, at least Fremont is much more
              expensive than Oakland or Berkeley..  Hmm, wait...
           \_ Oakland seems to have the superior water for the Bay Area.
              San Jose seems to suck (some parts?). The water came out
              fuzzy. But with the filter, it came out clear -- made big
              diff. I notice that a lot of silicon valley companies either
              provide small bottles of water, bottled water (like those
              big blue jugs) and/or the filters/tank/tubes under the sink
              for tap water.  It all helps. Who knows what kinda crap
              gets into the water with all the chip manufacturers?
                \_ You don't want to know.
2000/4/26-28 [Science/Space] UID:18120 Activity:nil
4/26    What's a good science (mostly Astronomy) news site?
           or find a site for yourself from
2000/4/17 [Science/Space] UID:18027 Activity:very high
4/16    3 words: Impossible Mission Force.
        \_ Three more words: So fucking what?
        \_ Three more words: So foobie what?
                        foobie??? _/
           \_ Sequel coming soon
2000/1/20-21 [Science/Space, Computer/SW/Editors/IDE] UID:17280 Activity:kinda low
1/20    Total lunar eclipse tonight.
        The partial eclipse begins at 07:01 PM; totality at 8:05 pm.
1999/12/30-31 [Science/Space] UID:17125 Activity:high
12/30   Does anyone know the precession rate of Earth's equator?
                \_ Yes, someone knows the precession rate of Earth's equator.
        \_ Does the equator precess differently from the rest of the earth?
           \_ How about the nutation rate?
                \_ The nutrition rate is much higher.
        \_ one full cycle is about 26000 years.
           \_ so in 26000 years, we'll be off by one year or one day?
        \_ Why does it happen?  I thought angular momentum needs to be
           \_ Only in the absence of torque.  Torque could arise from outside
              sources, or because the Earth's axis of rotation is not along
              an inertial axis.
           \_ something to do with the moon i bet
                \_ The moon is drifting away ~1.5 inches a year.  When it
                   finally "goes away" and wanders off into space, the Earth
                   is going to slip from that nice 23.5 degree angle and spin
                   every which way.  Fortunately this won't matter to any of
                   us since long before that happens, we'll all be dead from
                   the End of Days, the Rapture, and Y2k bugs in nuclear and
                   other critical systems.
1999/12/16 [Science/Space] UID:17059 Activity:high
12/15   my space heater for my bedroom heats the place up but it also
        dries up the air and so in the morning the air is all dry and
        my throat feels like crap. is there a heater that will not dry
        up the air so much? i dont want to buy a humidifier and run that
        in parallel because the noise & elec bill will drive me nuts.
        \_ Boil a big pot of water. Heat the house AND make it humid.
        \_ I find women to be more effective heaters. No drying problems.
           \_ You're not using her long enough to dry her out.
              \_ 2YK-Y-jelly. putting four digits in where previously only
                 two could go.
            \_ Where do I get one of these?
                \_ Not on the motd or in Soda Hall.
        \_ I leave out a big glass of water next to the heater when
           I go to sleep. It helps a bit.
        \_ humidifier
        \_ open the window.
        \_ leave your computer on all night, cracking DES keys and heating
           up your place.
        \_ Does your heater have a fan?  Put a bowl of water in front of
           it so it will blow water vapor.
        \_ (Someone deleted this) It is most likely a major hazard to have a
           space heater running while you are asleep.  I strongly suggest you
           turn off the heater at night.
           \_ Let 'em fry.
           \_ why would anyone want to run a heater at night anyway?
              didn't you ever hear of this newfangled device called
              a blanket?  i hear they don't even use any electricity.
                \_ I use an electric blanket.  I'm risking cancer but I'm
                   really warm.
                        \_ and masturbating furiously as much as you do
                           must be affecting your eyesight I'm sure
1999/7/3-13 [Science/Space] UID:16064 Activity:nil
07/02 Evans power failure caused by contractor drilling through 12inch,
      200psi water main. --jon
1999/7/1-2 [Science/Space] UID:16054 Activity:nil
07/01 Around 10-10:30am this morning, a water main in/near evans hall broke
      causing loss of power in evans, evacuation, and reportedly some damage
      to equipment in evans.  This caused a large number of problems including
      cutting campus off from any external network access as well as cutting
      many parts of cmapus off from one another.

      At this time, basic netowrk connectivity appears to have been restored
      though some services such as the campus newserver are not up yet.

      Many Thanks to the those people who must have worked like hell to get
      the network back up so quickly.
1999/6/10-11 [Transportation/Bicycle, Science/Space, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:15938 Activity:nil
6/10    SQUIRT RIDE TOMORROW!!!!  100 water pistols, a couch, and you and
        your bike!  Gatehr 5:30 pm to leave around 6 pm, downtown BART
1999/6/9-10 [Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:15926 Activity:high
6/9     Warp drive coming soon to a planet near you...
        I love science.  Every couple of months you hear something like: "We
        thought it would take us 100000000*X to do Y, but with this new
        discovery we can now do it in only X!"  Once in a while I get giddy
        thinking that every wildly positive sci-fi conjecture will be reality
        in my lifetime (assuming that life-extension technolgy keeps up with
        everything else!)... -mogul
        \_ This is some awesome news!  However, did Chris Van Den Broeck also
           researched on what kind of effects the distortion of the
           time-space continuum has on other things, such as our universe?
           I was going to post this question at the site, but couldn't find
           the right place to do so there.
        \_ This is by someone from a Catholic University?  I thought they're
           still busy arguing that human didn't evolve from apes.
        \_ what ever happened to that dude (it was Rivest I think) that
           came up with some factoring algorithm - I saw some legitimate
           wire reports a month ago but didn't follow up on them - although
           I imagine if it were true media info was quickly squashed
           I imagine if it were true media info was quickly squished
           \_ if I remember correctly, he had a linear speed-up that simply
              pushed the crackable key size forward a few years. there was
              no real theoretical breakthrough that would invalidate
              public-key technology.  the moral of the story was to start
              using >1500 bit keys today.
1999/3/29 [Science/Space, Recreation/Food] UID:15658 Activity:nil
        \_ Dan White ate twinkies
           by the truckload, made him nuts
           should eat zinc instead.
           \_ Argh! Everywhere I turn
              Reminder of thesis there
              It sucks to be me.
        \_ Enormous paychecks
           Play video games at work
           Computer Science
1999/2/1-2 [Science/Space] UID:15336 Activity:very high
2/1     You know these geeky scientists you see on TV that work at NASA/JPL,
        cheering at that Roverbot thingie on Mars and shit? Just out of
        curiousity, how much do these scientists make?
        \_ Depends on the field, the project, and the position. Figure
           roughly $75,000 (new postdoc) to $120,000 (position with
           more responsibility). I think that's about what most professors
           make, but I'm not sure. These people aren't doing it for money,
           though. Most can make a lot more in industry. --dim
           \_ dim needs to be sodomized
              \_ Don't project your homosexual fantasies onto me please. --dim
           \_ are you on crack?  postdocs make WAY less that 75k.
              \_ Which one of us has a e-mail address? I know
                 what I'm talking about. Management gets screwed the most.
                 High level managers make $150,000 to MAYBE $200,000 if
                 you include the salary they also draw from CalTech. --dim
              \_ To dpetrou/nweaver/ali/grad students: If you guys are so
                 smart, WHY are you guys in school when you could already
                 be making motherloada $$$ ????
                 \_ ali is in industry
                        \_ Interval != industry -muchandr
                 \_ Maybe some smart people want to be in school because
                    they like it?
           \_ Man, these scientists are STUPID. I don't have a Phd and I'm
              already making 110K as a hot shot sys admin. I kick ass.
              \_ where? I think your lying.
                 \_ of course he's lying; he's got sysadmin ego syndrome.
        \_ scientist my butt, they're mostly community college grads/drop outs
           \_ how do you know?
1998/12/16-17 [Science/Space] UID:15102 Activity:insanely high
12/15   Is the Space Shuttle capable of taking off on a runway like a regular
                \_ by the way, Space Shuttle is one big glider. Even with
                   full throttle, it can't take off
                   \_ That's not quite true.  It can't take off by itself,
                        but it's not just a big glider.  It needs the help of
                        the two booster rockets to take off, but after the
                        boosters fall off then it's powered by its main
                        \_ which are fueled by the external tank so
                           NO it can not take off. It's all Nixon's fault.
                           Challenger was Nixon's fault, too. He hated NASA
                           It's a shame that his signature is on the moon.
                           \_ So no external tank = no fuel? So from, say,
                              the new Space Station to a reentry point to
                              atmosphere to touchdown, no fuel whatsoever?
                              Or am I missing something here?
                                \_ there several small rockets part of
                                   the RCS and OMS that do the little
                                   manuevering in space but there is
                                   a limited fuel for those.
                            \_ There are other sources of power, but it
                                needs the external fuel tank for the 5+
                                minutes between when the Solid
                                Rocket Boosters burn out and when it has
                                enough energy to reach orbit.  For
                                minor maneuvers, it either uses the main
                                engines with another, smaller,
                                fuel source, or it has other smaller
                                engines.  I'm sure the information can
                                be found at
                                  \_ the main engines are not fired again
                                     after they detach from the external
                                     tank. for forward momentum stronger than
                                     a RCS (reaction control system) burn
                                     they use the two bigger OMS rockets.
        \_ I've always wondered why after so many years they're still using
           the same Shuttle design that they have for twenty years.
            \_ Why the fuck would we need a new shuttle? The
               current shuttle fulfills all of its mission requirements.
        \_ no
          \_ It can take off a runway on the back of a 747, I think.
             \_ I'm pretty sure that the 747 is only used to transport it from
                Houston to Kennedy when it lands in Texas.
                \_ yeah and it can't detach from that carrier plane
                   in mid-air.
        \_ troll deleted                                        -tom
        \_ No
                \_ by the way, Space Shuttle is one big glider. Even with
                   full throttle, it can't take off
                   \_ That's not quite true.  It can't take off by itself,
                        but it's not just a big glider.  It needs the help of
                        the two booster rockets to take off, but after the
                        boosters fall off then it's powered by its main
                        \_ which are fueled by the external tank so
                           NO it can not take off. It's all Nixon's fault.
                           Challenger was Nixon's fault, too. He hated NASA
                           It's a shame that his signature is on the moon.
                           \_ You should re-read what I wrote.  I said, "It
                                can't take off by itself, but it's not just a
                                big glider."  It uses the main engines to slow
                                down for re-entry, and then glides to a landing.
                           \_ So no external tank = no fuel? So from, say,
                              the new Space Station to a reentry point to
                              atmosphere to touchdown, no fuel whatsoever?
                              Or am I missing something here?
                                \_ there several small rockets part of
                                   the RCS and OMS that do the little
                                   manuevering in space but there is
                                   a limited fuel for those.
                            \_ There are other sources of power, but it
                                needs the external fuel tank for the 5+
                                minutes between when the Solid
                                Rocket Boosters burn out and when it has
                                enough energy to reach orbit.  For
                                minor maneuvers, it either uses the main
                                engines with another, smaller,
                                fuel source, or it has other smaller
                                engines.  I'm sure the information can
                                be found at
                                  \_ the main engines are not fired again
                                     after they detach from the external
                                     tank. for forward momentum stronger than
                                     a RCS (reaction control system) burn
                                     they use the two bigger OMS rockets.
                                     \_ don't you mean "SRB"s? What does
                                        OMS stand for?
                                                \_ Orbital Maneuvering System.
                                     \_ Are you sure?  I thought that the
                                        shuttle turned around and fired
                                        the main engines to slow itself down
                                        for re-entry.  You're saying that it
                                        uses the manuvering engines to do this?
                                        \_ SSME (space shuttle main engines)
                                           have no fuel while in space.
                                           OMS may sound misleading but
                                           they are bigger than the RCS nozzles
                                \_ Having only power but no mass to throw out
                                   is not enough.  You're not going to get
                                   anywhere with a huge nuclear reactor if
                                   if you don't have any mass to jet.
                        \_ The moon landing was a Cold War hoax.  Ever wonder
                           why there are no stars in the photos or why they never
                           took a photo of the earth from the moon?  Because we'd
                           know it was FAKE!
                           \_ They took several pictures of the earth from the
                              the moon. Probably the most famous was the "Earth
                              Rise" shot. Several of the photos from the Moon
                              Landings also feature stars.
            \_ Space shuttle is a waste of money.  "Preparing" one for
                launch is several times more expensive than a single-use
                rocket.  Russian space program was much better, anyway. Oh well.
1998/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:14610 Activity:kinda low
9/15    What consumes more power, an empty refrigerator or
        a full refrigerator?
        \_ on startup from an unpowered condition, the full one does
           because you need to cool down a larger amount of stuff
           (most solids/liquids have a higher spec.heat than air)
           but say you have everything cooled down, a sort of steady
           state and you pull the power, then the full fridge will
           stay cooler longer due to the higher "heat mass"  One could
           similarly say that the full fridge requires less energy per
           unit time to maintain a low temperature as all the frozen
           veggies and meat and other things with high water content
           maintain their temperature much better than air.  Of course,
           if you dont plug either fridge in at all, then its a tie,
           though in a strict sense the full one will absorb more heat
           but will give up less heat given a rise or drop in temp. --jon
                \-well there is also the pathological case of say rotting/
                fermeting food which is exothermic. --psb
                \_ is hell exothermic or endothermic? - tpc
                   \_ ~dpc/forwards/hell
                      \_ amusing. But the cited professor was most definately
                         not the original one, as I heard the "final exam"
                         version of this, some time in 1995 or before.
                         (different response cited, though)
        \_ how often one opens and closes a refrigerator really affects how
           much power it uses, more than how much it contains.
           \_ this is true but the question was about the effect of fullness
              on power consumption.

Reminder!  Special Session of Micronet THURSDAY:
        Speaker:        Calvin Moore, Professor and Chair, Math Dept.,
                        and Chair of the Commission on Computing.
                        Prof. Moore will be discussing the
                        commission's recent report on the future
                        orginizational direction of computing on
                        the UCB campus.  The commission was
                        mostly made up of faculty, so this is a
                        chance for staff to give feedback.
                        The URL for the report is:
        Time/Date:      12-2pm, THURSDAY 9/17/98
        Location:       223 Moses Hall
        \_ Staff feedback?  They needed more landfill material?
           The only thing more ridiculous than staff feedback is student
           \_ There were two students on the commission.
                \_ Woo woo! Power to the people!  They served drinks?
1998/9/10 [Science/Space, Science] UID:14569 Activity:moderate
9/10    Morgan Stanley Dean Witter is looking for Bachelor's, Master's
        and Ph.D. graduates in all majors for our Information Technology
        division. If you are smart, motivated, and interested in solving
        business problems through technology, MSDW IT may be the place
        for you! Attend our info session to find out more:
                when:   Monday, September 14
                        4:30pm - 6:30pm
                where:  The Faculty Club - The Howard Room
        Datails available at:
        \_ I am even better than smart.I am DAMN GOOD.
           \_  DAMN GOOD works... it's almost a requirement!  -- prashant
        \_ Eekgad.  They must have a Y2k problem.  Yet another sign that
                Alan Greenspan is the MOST powerful person on earth.
           \_  Who doesn't... ours seems to be under control...
               I doubt that any CSUA alum would end up in Y2K!
               (Morgan Stanley's been recruiting from all majors
               for quite a few years now.)  -- prashant
1998/5/11-12 [Science/Space] UID:14076 Activity:moderate
5/8     Work for the company that has the RTOS monopoly on Mars!
        Java development position open. look at:
        \_ How can you have a monopoly on Mars if you're not selling it there?
           Oh wait, am I saying that Little Green Men don't need an OS? :-)
           Seriously, I wish our OS is running on Mars too.  Great job.
           --- someone that shares the same parking lot
           \_ :-)
                \_ :-< _!!!!!1!!!!!!!_
1998/3/6-7 [Science/Space] UID:13770 Activity:nil
3/6     NASA has discovered talks are under way to co-market the chocolate
        drink Yoohoo with Yahoo!, making it the Yahoo! Yoohoo Chocolate Drink
        by NASA.  Announcements are expected soon. - tpc
1998/3/6-8 [Science/Space] UID:13769 Activity:high
3/6     NASA has found water on the Moon, and predicts that human colonization
        of the Moon is now feasible.  It was announced at a press conference
        yesterday morning.
        \_ yes, but how much? It didn't sound like much to me.
        \_ It's enough to support 1000 people for 100 years.
           \_ There used to be a lot more, but the secret Nazi moon base on
              the dark side of the moon used up most of it after Hitler
              decided to expand the base to four times its previous size
              back in the 60s.  Damn Nazis.
              \_ I know you think this is funny,but this is nowhere near
              as hilarious as that apollo workstation thread a couple of
              days ago.  my stomach still hurts from that.
                \_ This completes the circle, though.  (Haven't you ever
                   wondered where DomainOS _really_ came from?)
                        \_ DOMAIN=Developed On Many Apollos Inside Nasa
                           \_ That's what they'd _like_ you to think; the
                              acronym is just nationalistic face-saving on the
                              part of the USA.  Just like how Werner Von Braun
                              and the other Germans built up our space
                              program, but "we" did it all . . .
                    \_ You mean the Apollo entry was a lie?
                        \_ Of course not.  No one ever lies in the motd.
                   \_ We know where domain/os came from.  We also know where
                        Windows NT came from.  (Hint:  Does "//machinename"
                        look familiar?  And we're talking years before URL's
                        adopted the syntax from Domain/OS.)
                \_ Or... 10,000 people for 10 years... Not much.
1998/3/3-4 [Science/Space] UID:13748 Activity:high
3/02    My officemate is trying to convince me that the Apollo program
        to go to the moon gave a tremendous push to computer technology.
        Is this true?
        \_ Of course it's true.  In fact, the OCF used to run entirely on
           Apollo workstations, which were (as you can probably guess from the
           name) direct lineal descendants of the powerful desktop mission
           control workstations developed for the unprecedented computing
           demands of the moon mission.  Apollo Computer was a public
           corporation run by NASA as a technology-transfer testbed until the
           late 1980s, when the Bush Administration privatized the company
           and sold it to H-P as a deficit reduction measure.  -- kahogan
                \_ the older versions of the apollo os & manuals had a cool
                   logo featuring the planet Saturn (similar to the NASA logo)
                   until they got replaced with the boring "Apollo, a
                   subsidiary of HP" logos (except of course for the OCF
                   where the HP boot logos got replaced with all sorts of
                   silliness) -alanc-
                \_ Apollo is widely regarded as the first company to
                   sell workstations & the inventor of the workstation market,
                   which they dominated for years until Sun finally caught up.
                   \_ Wait... so those Apollos weren't running OS/2 afterall?
                \_ Apollo was the first company to sell workstations and
                   basically created the workstation market, which they
                   dominated for years until Sun finally caught up.
                   \_ Oh, I once thought Sun was the first.  Never mind.
                        \_ Sun was the first UNIX workstation.  Apollo used
                                their own multics-based OS at first and added
                                a UNIX layer to it after they started losing
                                sales to Sun.
           \_ The Apollo DN4500 had a secret hidden switch (activated by a
              special key which could only be legally posessed by NASA
              employees and members of the UN "black helicopter" multinational
              response team) that, when flipped, upped its processing power to
              approximately that of a Cray Y-XMP.  Pretty snappy for a 1980s
              desktop machine.
                \_ The real reason Soda Mk I died was a booby trap set to
                   destroy the motherboard triggered when CSUA'ers decided
                   to try and activate this switch.
        \_ The government poured billions into the Apollo program not just
           so we could get stupid pride over "beating the russians" but to
           help finance major improvements in all sorts of technologies.
           \_ Little does the public know about the truth behind the "Space
              Race"... in fact, the United States waged war in space
              against the Russians until the late '70s when the 19th
              Stellar Fleet and the Russian 4th Fleet were destroyed by
              some unknown force.
              \_ Mojo Riser?
                \_ Tom is a patriot.  He was on the ground out of rotation
                   when the 19th was burned from the skies around Io.  Now
                   commander of the 32nd, Tom is burning both Russians and
                   the Alien Menace from space on a daily basis.  Quoted
                   recently in Space Marines (issue 5, vol 3), Tom says,
                   "We're going to doosh those bastards til there's nothing
                   left to doosh and then we're going to doosh 'em some more!
                   SB+25 at Rom!"  -tom #1 Fan
1998/1/21 [Science/Space, Health/Men] UID:13526 Activity:kinda low
1/20    What the fuck is Nasa wasting money sending John Glenn
        into the orbit again?
        \_ To study the effect of old men having heart attack in space?
        \_ To see how much more sex urge an old man has in space?
        \_ Give it to me!  Give it to me!
           \_ the money or John Glenn?
                \_ The heart attack.
1997/5/2 [Science/Space] UID:32137 Activity:nil
5/1     Support supersonic transport! If one thought the Concorde was an
        awsome display of technology, wait until one sees what NASA has to
        offer now.
        \_ Space Shuttle Challenger?
        \_ The Concorde was an awesome display of government hubris.  There's
           a REASON it's on the cover of a book called "Great Planning
1993/9/1 [Science/Space] UID:31389 Activity:nil
9/1     Lemmings of the Day:
        Subject: Re: Hardware problem: 5 vs 4 wire power cables in BA213
        Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,talk.bizarre
 X-hint:                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
        In-Reply-To: <>
        Organization: <DEAD><DEAD>

        In article <> you write:
        >Could be worse.  I saw someone try to run "twisted pair" ethernet
        >along hot and cold water copper plumbing.

        Could you elaborate on this?  Do you actually mean that they
        used the pipes as signal wires?
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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