Reference Religion - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Reference:Religion:
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/06/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/5/21 [Reference/Religion] UID:30350 Activity:high
        Man, don't go golfing in Florida.  (Actually gator bites car)
        \_ There was a 8 foot gator in the pool of my grandparent's
           neighbors in Boca.
           \_ Never live in a town called "Rat Mouth"
              \_ Tell that to the jews who have taken over.
2004/5/14 [Reference/Religion] UID:30227 Activity:high
5/13    The Pope speak out against women marrying Muslims.        (yahoo)
        \_ Technically, that article doesn't mention the pope speaking out
           \_ I think the pope himself has gotten too old to do much but wheeze.
              \_ We need a real Pope in Rome again, a warrior Pope,
                 to Christianize Asia once and for all. Are the missionaries
                 to scared to preach in Iraq?
        \_ I agree with him.
        \_ I speak out against women marrying any religious people.
           \_ That's sexist!  I speak out against all persons marrying any
              religious people!
              \_ I think gay marriage should be between a man and a woman.
                 -- Governator
                 \_ bleah, they are violating the sanctity of gay marriage.
2004/5/13-14 [Reference/Religion] UID:30204 Activity:insanely high
5/13    This is quality:   -John
        \_ Yeah, quality mocking of over a billion people's religion.
           \_ oh, NOW the motd offends you?
           \_ fuck 'em.
              The Catholic church is truly an evil thing. With a brutal
              and intolerant history, it doesn't deserve immunity to criticism.
                 \_ ???
           \_ hey man, I'm catholic and though it's tasteless, it's also
              freakin' hilarious.
              \_ Thank you for censoring the PC crap, so I didn't have to yell
                 at it.
                 \_ ???  I think you're blaming the wrong poster.
                 \_ Restored.  I'm willing to debate with haters.  If you just
                    want to froth and rant you'll be ignored.
              \_ sort of like how it's "ok" to call someone nigger as long as
                 you're black, huh?  Not.  Just because a pseudo-Catholic
                 finds it funny doesn't mean it's "ok".
                 \_ Were you this upset at Buddy Jesus in Dogma?
                 \_ thicken that skin, pal.
                    \_ will you be calling me nigger, next?  you want me to be
                       a thick skinned nigger so you can feel warm and cozy and
                       safe in your little nest of hatred?
                       \_ That you see a parody like that as driven by hatred
                          is really sad.  How would you react to a crucifix
                          in a large vat of urine?
                       \_ Do you have any standing on this issue?  If you're
                          not Catholic, why should you care what jokes
                          Catholics make about themselves?  Just chill out.
                 \_ Red herring.  A non-black calling a black a nigger is
                    evocative of hundreds of years of slavery and institution-
                    alized racism, just as a non-Jew calling a Jew a kike is
                    evocative of anti-Semitism and the sort of thinking that
                    led to the Holocaust.  Catholicism and the general flavors
                    of Christianity are firmly enough established in positions
                    of power and acceptance in the world to be fair game to
                    parody and satire.  You can't be the dominant majority
                    and cry "Discrimination!" every time someone takes a pot-
                    shot at you.
                    \_ Ilya to thread in 5...4...3...
                    \_ Ok, I ll oblige.  You can't justify a 'bad thing'
                       by saying it's done to powerful people.  If it's bad,
                       it's bad all around.  Is putting graffiti on a rich
                       person's car ok?  How about breaking his windows?
                       How about raping his wife? -- ilyas
                       \_ I think it's yet to be shown that the link was in
                          any way discriminatory.
                          \_ So if someone makes a documentary about a lynching
                             of a famous black person in the south, and someone
                             makes some action figures, that would be ok, right?
                              -- ilyas
                             \_ Like this, it would be off color and possibly
                                in poor taste, but it's not discriminatory.
                                If they could manage to make it funny as well,
                                then that's icing.  You may as well get pissed
                                off at Dave Chappelle's show.  Or you can just
                                laugh.  Or you can change the channel.
                                \_ Yeah, try to market an action figure
                                   featuring a black man, a noose, and a tree.
                                   Think for a second, whether this will fly
                                   or not.  You should use your 'but it's not
                                   discriminatory!' defense when the civil
                                   rights people with pitchforks get to your
                                   house. -- ilyas
                                   \_ Package it right, make it clear that it's
                                      parody, and you'll sure as hell find a
                                      \_ Yeah... try it and let us know how it
                                         works out.  Is there explicit
                                         indication the Christian stuff in
                                         the link was parody? -- ilyas
                                         \_ Uh, only the whole site.
                                            \_ Explicit?
                             \_ I want my Ariel Sharon doll with super wall-
                                building action and tree plowing bulldozer!
            \_ Why is this insulting to christians?  Why isn't Gibson making
               gore entertainment out the passion insulting, and in fact
           \_ It's only unwise to mock religions that breed suicide bombers
              \_ Isway itway OKway otay ockmay Islamway inway Igpay Atinlay?
                 \_ No way, Jose.  -- Uday & Qusay
2004/3/31-4/1 [Recreation/Computer, Reference/Religion] UID:29891 Activity:high
3/31    Some of you happy fun people need this shirt:
        \_ anti-semite
           \_ dumbass, the site was featured on FJBJ
              \_ FJBJ?!  For Jews By Jews?!
                 \_ Insert your humor chip. It's a play on FUBU.
                    \_ how does FJBJ map to FUBU? you do know what FUBU
                       stands for, don't you?
           \_ Hey, as long as we're just throwing stupid insults around, can
              I call you a humorless tard?
              \_ why is anti-semite an insult?
                 \_ This is exquisitely bad.
                    \_ thanks! we aim to please.
2004/3/30-31 [Reference/Religion] UID:12933 Activity:low
3/30    God's own lamb:
        \_ Mmmmh.  Kebab.  -John
        \_ I'm sure you mean, "The Lamb of God"
           \_ How much you want to bet someone drew that on the fur with some
              caustic agent?
           \_ Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world, have mercy on us
        \_ what about the cow born in idaho w/ GWB birthmark on it?
           \_ I'm pretty sure that was yermom's ass.
              \_ he said cow not mule.
                 \_ I thought he said asshole; oh, you're talking about the
                    animal, not the personage....
                    \_ Every cow comes with one asshole.
                       This cow came with two.
2004/3/26 [Reference/Religion] UID:12870 Activity:nil
3/26    Palestinians can't even enjoy a swim on the beach without being shot
        by the Jews!  Why can't the Jews share the oceans?  Aren't the oceans
        big enough for all of us?
        \_ Surely there are more interesting things to post than
           run of the mill news...
2022/06/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/3/24 [Reference/Religion] UID:12842 Activity:nil
3/24    acknowledging God != religion
        \_ More to the point, acknowledging God != establishing religion
        Religion is a very exact way of trying to approch God.
        Atheist acknowledge the absence of God , whether he exists
        or not, they are establishing the fact that he could exist
        and that is either religious or not religious, Either way,
        not stating God is either establishing atheism as a religion
        or stating God is not religious but acknowledging he could
        \_ Not stating God is not stating Atheism.
           Stating there is no God is stating Atheism.
        \_ I think you're confusing Atheism with agnosticism.  Atheism is
           a religion.
           \_ 'Strong' Atheism = "There is no God."
              'Weak' Atheism = "The case for God remains unproven."
              \_ I think you're confusing Atheism with agnosticism.  Atheism
                 is a religion.
                 \_ Religion: 1. The outward act or form by which men
                    indicate their recognition of the existence of a
                    god or of gods having power over their destiny.
                    So, atheism is by definition not a religion.  -tom
                    \_ Definitions of religion and atheism are fluid and
                       sticky. Here's one way to look at it: religion can be
                       defined as a belief system based on faith, not proof.
                       An atheist believes God doesn't exist even if it can't
                       be proven that God doesn't exist. A Christian believes
                       God exists even if it can't be proven that God exists.
                       So both are religions. Agnostics are actually less of
                       a religion, since agnostics aren't sure either way and
                       need some sort of proof to make up their minds.
                       \_ alt.atheism agrees with you, tom is a twink
                          \_ alt.atheism claims that atheism is a religion?
                             I think not.
                       \_ Well I believe religion involves a system of belief.
                          Not just existence/nonexistence. You could say that
                          simple theism isn't a religion, and I'd could agree,
                          but who is just a theist without any further belief?
                          You'd be believing there's a god without any notion
                          or system of behavior associated with it, which is
                          pretty rare, basically impossible depending on your
                          definition of what god is.
                       \_ Religion cannot be defined as "a belief system based
                          on faith, not proof."  Well, you can define it that
                          way, but your definition will have no validity
                          outside of your own skull.
                          \_ m-w has 4 definitions for religion, one of them
                             is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held
                             to with ardor and faith", and one of the
                             definitions of faith is "firm belief in something
                             for which there is no proof", so I don't think
                             the definition given is "invalid". I understand
                             that it's not your definition, and that's fine.
                             \_ In addition to having no clue theoolgically,
                                you also can't read a dictionary.  -tom
                             \_ Good point.  And while I do not believe in
                                Santa Claus, I have no definitive proof that
                                the occasional present that noone has any
                                idea who gave it is not, in fact, from
                                Santa.  So, I guess I am religious.
                          In addition, believing something *does* exist, with
                          no proof, is not the same as believing something
                          *doesn't* exist.  The burden of proof is on the
                          person who claims that something exists--if there's
                          no evidence that something exists, why should
                          anyone believe it does?  So atheism isn't even
                          a belief system--it's just an examination of the
                          available facts.  -tom
                          \_ Why is it more natural to assume that something
                             doesn't exist than to assume it does? -- ilyas
                             \_ because the set of things that exist is
                                finite, and the set of things that don't
                                exist is infinite.  -tom
                                \_ The set of things that exist is not
                                   necessarily finite.  No one knows how large
                                   the Universe is.  Also, a more reasonable
                                   rule is that the burden of proof is on
                                   the person whose hypothesis is more
                                   'expensive'.  For instance, I think the sun
                                   exists, and someone might not.  The burden
                                   of proof ought not be on me, it seems.
                                   You can argue that God is more expensive to
                                   assume than no God, but that's a whole
                                   separate discussion.  Personally, I believe
                                   even that rule is too rigid, and that
                                   the burden of proof is on anyone who
                                   proposes anything, regardless of what
                                   their hypothesis claims. -- ilyas
                                   \_ Just because a set is finite doesn't
                                      mean you can't add to it.  Besides,
                                      God is more expensive because he
                                      wants 10% of your income.
                                \_ huh? how can you quantify things that
                                do not exists?
                                   \_ set of possibilities != existing
                                \_ take a math course please
                                \_ haha= so ZERO = INFINITY?
                             \_ Because there's no evidence for it. Things that
                                exist have evidence for their existence.
                          \_ so why do you ignore the fact that millions
                           if not billions of people believe in God?
                           That was be circumstantial evidence to prove
                           that you must as an atheist acknowledge the
                           the possibility that God does exist.
                              \_ What other people believe isn't relevant to
                                 truth. We know lots of cases in history
                                 where people believed something untrue.
                                 Additionally, the fact that all these people
                                 can't agree on the nature of god, and have
                                 lots of variations, and often don't act as
                                 if they truly believe what they say, and
                                 when asked admit they don't really know for
                                 sure and rely on faith, can be seen as
                                 against the existence of god. In fact,
                                 observational evidence tells me there's no
                                 sign of any god and never has been.
                           \_ Are you trying to convert me by speaking in
                              tongues?  Millions of people believe that
                              Britney Spears has talent, that doesn't make
                              it true.  -tom
                        \_ alt.atheism agrees with you, tom is a twink
                 \_ I'm not confusing anything.  I simply offered a definition
                    that you disagree with.
                    \_ him and the entire secular society that knows anything
           \_ "There is not Santa Claus"  -Would you say this is also a
              religion, by your above definition?  How about "There are no
              underpants gnomes"?
              \_ just stating the existance of something doesn't make that
                 a religion.
              \_ I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.  All
                 I'm saying is that it's difficult to prove the
                 nonexistance of anything.  Atheists believe there is no
                 God.  Religion is just a question of existance that is
                 so important it defines a person's view of the universe.
                 I don't think the existance or nonexistance of Santa
                 Clause carries the same wieght.
        \_ Huh?  What kind of circular run-on talk is this?
        \_ If you're not informed enough to know the distinction between
           an atheist and an agnostic, why should we listen to your poorly
           worded and convoluted thoughts on religion and presumably its
           role in government?
2004/3/24 [Reference/Religion] UID:12839 Activity:nil
3/24    if just hearing the word God sqinches your panties, then you
        are definately religious
        \_ What if it makes me wet?
2004/3/24 [Reference/Religion] UID:12836 Activity:nil
3/24    NYTimes' William Saffire on 'Under God' in the Pledge of Allegciance
        He says the guy who brought the suit is an idiot, but the words
        'under god' should never have been added, but we shouldn't take them
        out because it would offend religious people.  I don't get it.
        \_ WILLIAM SAFIRE, The New York Times' in-house "conservative"
           -- who endorsed Bill Clinton in 1992 ....  -- Ann Coutler
        \_ What's with the "indivisible" part of it? Why isn't the USA
           divisible? That's against my religion.
           \_ They tried dividing it, and there was a big war.  Nobody wants
              to try again.
              \_ speak for yourself.
           \_ there isn't even justice for all. only the liberals who
              control the courts
              \_ yeah, those masters of puppets. we should kill 'em all.
        \_ time to stock up on bullets for the coming Civil War
           \_ Eight months and counting...
           \_ What civil war?  The religious types run the military, and
              the whiny athesits don't have guns.  If it comes to that, I
              suggest you find Jesus real fast.  The atheists ain't gonna
              last long.  They exist by the grace of the Christians.
              \_ So you're saying atheists exist because Christians are being
                 gracious enough to not murder them?
                 \_ More or less.  See how long a true Atheist lasts in
                    the Middle East.  (I was refering to the context of
                    a civil war, Christians vs Atheists, doofus.  A
                    little too tounge in cheek for ya'?)
              \_ I'm an atheist *and* a good shot buddy.
        \_ I think it's pretty obvious.  It was put in by the legislature
           (I assume) and found constitutional then.  It's not forcing
                          \_ Um..  read up on the process of judicial review.
           religion on anyone, it's the universal conept of God.
           Therefore taking it out by the supreme court is overbearing and
           just increases the "activist judges" claims.  Take it out by
           legislature if you want it out.
           \_ It forces the idea that there is a god.  You know the religious
              types would claim they're being opressed if the pledge said
              "without god" instead.
              \_ As I said, make that argument to the legislature.
                 \_ The Supreme Court should enforce the law that says
                    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
                     religion..."  By inserting reverance to a single god into
                     a government document, that seems like a violation of
                     the constitution.  It's the job of the courts to defend
                     the constitution from lesser laws that conflict with it.
                     \_ excuse me, Goverment documents != Laws - sorry
                     \_ please name the Statute or Ordinance where it
                        forces people to worship God?
        \_ okay, what is the specific law that they are talking about
          that is forcing people to say "under God"?
          \_ Nobody is forced to say it.  The controversy is about the fact
             that it is a commonly-used government text.  In many states,
             school children are required to listen to the pledge.
             \_ then it's not unconstitutional, no law was made that
                established a religion or God
        \_ why are people forgetting that laws are specific Statutes or
        Ordinances that are enforceable by the Executive Branch? the
        Pledge of Allegiance is not enforceable and there is no
        punishment for not stating it.
        \_ In a lot os states, there is punishment for a school which fails to
           lead its students in the pledge.  The students are effectively
           required to listen to the idea that the US is a 'under' or subject
           to monotheism.
           \_ that is up for the States to decide, "Congress shall make
              no law" refers to the Federal Level. States should be
              able to do whatever they want
           \_ well if there is a God, the whole universe is subject to it.
           \_ so putting up the 10 commandments is also forcing people
              to listen to the idea that a God exists?
2004/3/22-23 [Reference/Religion] UID:12806 Activity:moderate
3/22    I know everyone will think this is a troll, but I am genuinely
        curious. Why did the Isrealis assassinate Yasser with a rocket
        when they could have arrested him and put him on trial?
        Only serious answers please.
        \_ more dramatic.  He was already released once from Isreali prison.
        \_ Could have arrested him? How? Do you still remember that an
           Israeli attempt to arrest a bunch of Palestinian militants
           two years ago resulted in a five week stand-off at the
           Church of Nativity in Bethlehem? Or the violent battle that
           took place in Jenin? It's not like Israeli police can just
           drive a police car to his house and arrest him.
           \- well maybe killing palestinians at the rate of 3:1 against
              israelis isnt enough and they want to radicalize things more
              so they can go up to 10:1 or 20:1 or 50:1. you know this is
              the second hamas leader they have killed in the last few months.
              \_ Why do you single out jews?  What's the kill ratio of Hindis
                 vs Muslims in India outside Kashmir, where one can honestly
                 say that the muslims are not the one causing terror?
                 \- because that is what this thread is about. without a
                    doubt there are human rights abuses done by the indian
                    military forces in the valley of kashmir.
                    it is not a hindi [sic] muslim matter but a government
                    vs. rebels. e.g. kps gill who "settled" punjab is a
                    sikh. please delete your irrelevant post and my reply
                    after you read it. --psb
                    \_ oh bullshit, there are plenty of dead muslims inside
                       indias borders killed by both the government and
                       civilians gone into nutty religious frenzies.
              \_ the 2nd?  i thought their recent track record was better than
                 that.  they should send those missile guys out to the range to
                 do some firing practice.  2 in a few months is pathetic.  if
                 they killed off the bastards faster, fewer Israeli and Arab
                 children would die.
                    doubt what happened in gujrat is indefensible. if you
                    want to start a thread on that feel free, but you may
                    want to learn the difference between hindi and hindu,
                    before wading into indian history and politics --psb
2004/3/20-21 [Reference/Religion] UID:12773 Activity:moderate
3/19    so it's okay for "ethnic albanians" to ethnically cleanse
        kosovo and burn all the churches there.
        \_ Yes.  The Albanians aren't Israeli and their victims aren't a
           harmless, defenseless people like the Palestinians.  The Albanians
           are a peace loving people who are merely setting right historical
           injustices done upon them by Evil Christans(c).  It's a form of
           international level affirmative action.
           \_ You really have a one track mind, don't you?
              \_ Not at all.  (say something stupid get a stupid reply)
        \_ What ever gave you that idea?  NATO is calling for more troops and
           informing the populace that this must end, now.
           \_ "or else!"  what good does that do for the ones already
              butchered?  not a god damned thing, that's what.  but they're
              only dirt eating eastern european christians so who cares?
              \_ I appreciate your frustration, but the point is that NATO
                 is trying to do something.  If you have concrete suggestions
                 on what they can do, post them.
                 \_ Ok, so where are the troops?  No, they're only talking
                    about sending troops whenever the hell they get around to
                    it.  There have been troops in the region since Clinton
                    put them there half a decade ago.  Why aren't they doing
        \_ I bet you were one of those guys who said Clinton was just
           trying to wag the dog when he sent troops to Kosovo, aren't you?
                \_ Except we were supporting the wrong side.  We should
                   be supporting the Christian Serbs.
                   \_ as a christian I disagree with your stoopid
                      \_ as a christian on the motd your opinion has no
                         value.  you are automatically scum of the earth and
                         full of hate and a redneck.
                         \_ I'm still waiting to read a single post by
                            a motd christian that uses their religion to
                            argue anything but hatred of homosexuals, jews,
                            muslims or the word "fuck."  Do you want to be
                            the first?
                      \_ I'm not a christian and I agree with him, but not
                         because "they're christian". why should we help
                         separatist albanians in a historically serbian area?
                         \_ That's fine with me.  I just don't like people
                            giving Christians a bad name.  I am against
                            mass murders.
                            giving Christians a bad name.
                \_ No one ever said that.  He was wagging the dog when he
                   blew up an aspirin factory in the Sudan and a few empty
                   tents in Afghanistan.
2004/3/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Religion] UID:12768 Activity:nil
3/19    Why does whitey hate the Asian man so much?
        \_ They didn't like him b/c he's Muslim.  At least get your trolling
        \_ whiteys hate muslims more than they hate azns, get it right
           \_ Yeah but muslim and azn is more than whitey can even stand
              thinking about.
        \_ A Chinese born of Christian parents who converted to Islam and bred
           with a Syrian and fucked a White soldier's wife and felt Pity for
           captives of the State (a christian virtue) and looked at porn when
           he became horny.  He is guilty as hell.
        \_ why ask why? whitey is evil and must be destroyed along with the
           zionist entity and anyone to the right of b.boxer.
2004/3/19 [Reference/Religion] UID:12753 Activity:nil
3/18    I remember there is a Mormon here on Soda.  I got a stupid question
        which is not that offensive.  Does any Mormon still use Deseret
        alphabets today?  I would imagine it would of died out by now, but
        I have heard that it never did.  Is that true?
        \_ We're all around you.  And we're breeding.
           \_ Shall I compare thee to a cellular automata?
              \_ singular ---> automaton
           Oh, and I've never seen the deseret alphabet before.  Nice info
           about it at:
2004/3/17-18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12727 Activity:nil
3/17    In American Pie, is Jim suppose to be Jewish?
        \_ James is a Christian name.
           \_ So everyone named James is Christian?
              \_ I would not try to claim that I know what every single
                 person on the planet earth might decide name their kid.
        \_ He *looks* like a Jew, right?  But he doesn't wear one of those
           beanie hates so maybe he isn't....
        \_ the character's last name is "Levinstein".
           \_ thats a jew name?
2004/3/17 [Reference/Religion] UID:12718 Activity:nil
3/17    I thought this was interesting: In nature, there are hundreds of
        documented species that engage in same-gender sex, but there is
        one kind of "lifestyle" that is not found in nature: lifelong,
        voluntary abstinence.  So, the next time some bible-thumping
        individual rants on about gays being "not natural", think about how
        celibate priests don't have an even remotely "natural" sex life.
        \_ There are also many documented cases of species engaged in
           infanticide and cannabalism. So are you suggesting that
           humans should engage in these activities with the sanction
           of society and the state? With loopy thinking like that
           I can justify just about anything. Anyway, the Old
           Testament preaches that humans are differentiated from
           other species, so your argument pretty much falls
           flat on its face. When religious types talk about homosexuality
           as being "unnatural" they mean it goes against their concept
           of what god meant for people, not animals. -- williamc
           \_ So homosexuality, infanticide, cannibalism are all natural.
              Shouldn't people condemn homosexuality by calling it 'sinful'?
              That would be much more accurate.  The only problem is that it
              exposes the fact that their objection is religious, not that
              it somehow hurts society or nature.
              \_ Ummm... The only people I've heard call it "unnatural"
                 are crazy rednecks.  I've have heard people say it's not
                 normal and it's harmful to society though...
                 \_ When you say "only crazy rednecks call it unnatural" you're
                    pre-defining the debate.  It's a cheap rhetorical tactic
                    that would get you kicked out of rhetoric 1a.
        \_ Sorry, you've mixed up your religions.  Any "bible-thumper"
           would be a baptist or some such protestant religion.  Not
           Catholic.  Therefore, they would probably agree with you.
           Priests not being able to marry was one of the arguments for
           the reformation.  Besides, depending on what kind of bible
           thumper you're talking to, they might just say that humans have
           all sorts of "natural urges" that should be quelled, and
           just list Homosexulality under that.  Sorry.
           \_ Catholics disapprove of homosexual marriages.  Please don't
        \_ You also have your sociology mixed up with your animal sciences.
           No one has tried to claim celebacy is normal.  And one of those
           bible thumpers you hate so much would tell you that because Man is
           above Beast that we should not look to the animals for the correct
           way to behave or be closer to God.  Sorry but you're not going
           anywhere with this stuff outside your own self reinforcing social
           \_ I think the point is that the "unnatural" label doesn't work.
              You can still call it "sinful" if you wish.
              \_ Can I call it abnormal? I think unnatural works. How else
                 would you describe the obvious disparity between how sex
                 works, and how homosexuals practice it? Our organs and
                 reproduction are clearly designed for opposite sex partners.
                 There are cases of two-headed animals in nature but that
                 doesn't mean that's "natural". Now homosexual attraction
                 is more common but you can't just dismiss the unnatural
                 argument as crazy.
2004/3/15-16 [Reference/Religion] UID:12686 Activity:very high
3/15    Who would win in a fight: Joseph Smith or Moses?
        \_ Does Joseph Smith get to drive da Bears Bus?  -John
        \_ Young, part the Red Sea Moses or old, after 40 years
           in the wilderness Moses?
           \_ As long as he keeps his arms up, Moses wins at any age.
        \_ Jacob, who wrestled God and won.
        \_ Depends on the type of fight.  1. Miracle Fight.  A bit silly
           since they are both servents of God with miracles under their
           belts, but... I give this one to Moses.  More consistently
        \_ Depends on the type of fight.  1. Miricle Fight.  A bit silly
           since they are both servents of God with miricles under their
           belts, but... I give this one to Moses.  More consistantly
           big miricles.  2. Unarmed combat.  JS was famous for being
           big miracles.  2. Unarmed combat.  JS was famous for being
           extremely strong and an excellent wrestler.  Moses was a
           prince.  Point to JS.  3. Sword combat.  Probably Moses, he
           was a prince of Egypt and probably studied sword/knife
           fighting.  (Or whatever was common then)  4. Modern armed
           combat.  JS.  Moses had no experience with guns... -jrleek
           extremely strong and an excellent wrestler.  Moses was a
           prince.  Point to JS.  3. Sword combat.  Probably Moses, he
           was a prince of Egypt and probably studied sword/knife
           fighting.  (Or whatever was common then)  4. Modern armed
           combat.  JS.  Moses had no experiance with guns... -jrleek
           \_ Can you try spelling a little more poorly?
              \_ oKe, butt I don' tknoe why.
           \_ wrestling was a popular sport among ancient peoples.  Moses
              takes all of them except the modern gun combat.  give him a
              sling instead and we'll see.
              \_ maybe Moses could win in modern gun combat too:
        \_ haven't you seen the Super Best Friends episode of South Park?
2004/3/14-15 [Reference/Religion] UID:12658 Activity:high
3/14    To the fellow who believes Mormons are not Christian, and wonders
        why Mormons believe they are:  I believe we are having a problem
        of defintion.  So, I will seek to define the word Christian. The
        first definition on Christian: "Professing
        belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the
        life and teachings of Jesus."  By this definition, Mormons are
        obviously Christian.  Since this is the widely accepted
        definition of Christian, Mormons will argue that they are Christian.
        Apparently you have a different definition, I would like to know
        what it is.  -jrleek
        \_ Preposterous. Islam believes that Jesus existed and was a prophet.
           I doubt any Muslim would call themselves Christians. Your
           thinking fails. Also, religion is a complex, messy subject.
           You can't simply whip out an internet dictionary and
           try to "define" Christianity. You should cease attempting
           to define things you know little or nothing about. -- williamc
        \_ in the Mormon religion, who is Jesus Christ?  And who is God?
           \_ I'm not sure I follow your question.
        \_ Well, it says "following the religion based on...". This religion
           is pretty well established in its various forms. Mormons add a
           large other set of religious stuff, incidentally not unlike Islam
           in my view. So there it is. I'm not a Christian btw.
           \_ Fine, and it's not like I haven't noticed the similarity
              myself.  But we don't believe Christ was just another
              prophet.  He is/was the son of God, and out connection to
              the father.  Our church is based on his teachings.  The
              additions are simply as restoration of what was lost, not
              new additions.
              \_ Christians believe that Jesus *was* God. This is a
                 fundamental tenet that Mormons reject.
                 \_ Not "God", "God the Son".  Very important.
                    \_ This has been the basis of "heresy" from the Church
                       in many forms.  Some say God the Son, some say Son
                       of God, some say God as Son, and some say Son
                       become God.
              \_ They are new additions to the religion. No other
                 Christians accept them. None. Only Mormons. This makes
                 Mormons unique. It's not like a denomination. It's an
                 entirely new religion. Someone else pointed out how
                 Christianity and Judaism and Islam are related. In the
                 same way Mormons are related to Christianity, but they
                 are not Christians. They have fundamental teachings and
                 beliefs that Christianity rejects. Here is one web site
                 to read, but there are others. The definition you use is
                 too broad, because the "life and teachings of Jesus" are
                 at the center of the debate:
                 \_ You just don't get it.  The "new" things are those that
                    were there in the first place, but lost in the translation.
                    JS rediscovered them.  In a sense, only the Mormons are
                    complete, whole christians.  The other ones are missing
                 \_ Not to meantion, this link is wrong in many respects.
                    It is full of red herrings and non-cannon (and wrong)
                    references.  Not to meantion as far as I can tell
                    the intro has nothing to do with the body
                    or conclusion.  This debate is stupid anyway.
                    There are equally huge differences between say,
                    Catholics and 7th day Adventists.  Are Mormons unique?
                    Of course.  Are Mormons Christian? Of course. I still
                    want to see your definition of what makes a religion
                    Christian.  Does it have to accept the Niciean creed?
                    Does it have to be logically consistant?  What?
                    \_ Simply that they don't add a bunch of *new* holy dogma,
                       certainly not to the point that they add a whole new
                       holy book. I'd say no re: nicene creed, as that
                       involves interpretation and church structure.
                 \_ More to the point, do you consider the Gnostics to be
                    Christians?  If you do, then the Mormons are also
                    Christians.  If not, then just about anyone not Catholic
                    doesn't count as a Christian.
                    \_ Well I'd say Gnosticism may be different enough so as to
                       not be what is called Christianity. If history had been
                       different and Gnosticism spread everywhere then perhaps
                       that is what we'd call Christian. But it didn't.
2004/3/13-15 [Reference/Religion] UID:12654 Activity:high
3/13    So, I just watched an episode of south park titled
        "all about mormons", in which it mentions how joseph smith claimed
        to have talked to god and jesus, how an angel directed him to
        gold plates and seer stones from which the book of mormon was
        transcribed, how no one ever really got to examine the plates
        and how he read them out of a hat, etc. stan concludes that the
        mormon religion is total bs, and gary (the mormon kid) says that
        if it makes his family happy and gives him a good life, then why
        not even if it is all crap. i know there are at least a couple
        mormons around here, and i'm wondering what you have to say about
        this. thanks.
        \_ As you may have noticed, the motd is now the most productive forum
        \_ As you may have noticed, the motd is not the most productive forum
           for discussion about this.  The motd is better for sound bytes and
           short answers, not for in-depth discussion. -emarkp
           \_ It's much more useful and productive to dress up in drab suits
              and harass people in their homes.
           short answers, not for in-depth discussion. -emarkp
        \_ you can have tv shows like the above mormonism, or christianity,
              and harass people in their homes.
              \_ When did you stop beating your wife? -emarkp
              \_ Why did you stop beating your wife? -emarkp
        \_ you can have tv shows like the above on mormonism, or christianity,
           but if you do something like that against judaism, you will be
           skewered alive.
           \_ Maybe you haven't seen the endless pro-palestinian anti-israeli
              biased news reports for the last umpteen years?
              biased news reports for the last umpteen years?
              \_ I did not find the news media on the whole anti-isareli
                 and pro-palestinian.  even those that are more on the
                 palestinian side, are against isreali policies, not
                 against judaism.  I am sure it is within your ability to
                 understand the difference.
              \_ So anything questioning Israeli policy is anti-semitic?
                 Fucking idiot. Maybe you haven't seen all the terrorism
                 \_ Yes, actually, I have seen it.  In this and other
                    \_ What am I saying? Simply that your example of
                       "anti-israeli biased news reports", even if that's true,
                       isn't anything "against judaism" itself, and that you're
                       a fucking idiot for apparently thinking so.
           but if you do something like that against judaism, you will be
           skewered alive.
                    countries.  What do you think you're trying to say and
              \_ no, they aren't, any more than christians are joos.
                    why does calling me a fucking idiot improve the quality
                    of your 'points' whatever they might be?  if you'd like
                    to try again with a civil tongue in your head we can
                    talk about it.  if you're just going to insult me then
                    don't bother posting.
              \_ no, they aren't, any more than christians are jews.
                    \_ What am I saying? Simply that your example of
                       "anti-israeli biased news reports", even if that's true,
              \_ I occur. They are not Christians at all. What's
                 \_ whats a joos?  juice? grape worshippers?? what?
                    \_ ignoramus! where do you think joojoobees come from?
                       isn't anything "against judaism" itself, and that you're
                       a fucking idiot for apparently thinking so.
           \_ Mormons are Christians.  Just so you know.  -emarkp
              \_ no, they aren't, any more than christians are joos.
                 \_ whats a joos?  juice? grape worshippers?? what?
                    \_ ignoramus! where do you think joojoobees come from?
                       \_ anything like a honey farm?  joos = honeybees and
                          not grape juice trees?  what is joos?
              \_ I concur. They are not Christians at all. What's
                          \_ some weirdo likes changing jew to joo on motd.
                             maybe a hypersensitive jew.
                             \_ im a 'hypersensitive' jew and i prefer the
                                correct spelling not some insulting smear. the
                                word 'jew' is not offensive. why would you
                                \_ There is only one Church which uses the
                                   Book of Mormon and it isn't Christian.
                                   There's nothing wrong with not being
                                   Christian, but I find it odd that Mormons
                                   think that they are and argue that they are.
                                   \_ Umm.. so.  Only the Catholics use
                                      the apocropha, are they not
                                      Christian?  The Book of Mormon is
                                      primarialy a book about CHRIST.
                       \_ I'm sorry, but you're an idiot.  Who the heck
                                think it is?
              \_ I occur. They are not Christians at all. What's
                          The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
                 interesting is that they think that they are even though
                 the Christian Church rejects them. Why is that?
            \_ I have no sympathy for Morons. All you have to do is learn
           \_ Mormons are Christians.  Just so you know.  -emarkp
              \_ no, they aren't, any more than christians are jews.
              \_ mormons are happy being moron.  they dont need your sympathy.
                 \_ Mormons believe in Christ, ergo, they are Christians.
                    No church defines "Christianity"
                    \_ they don't believe Christ was God but another prophet
                 \_ christianity is about christ not the church.  the church
                    is a political organisation.
                 \_ Mormons believe in Christ, ergo, they are Christians.
                   \_ yes and in the end it's all about 'believe in our god
                      the way we say so because'.  dont get lost in the
                      pseudo intellectualism of religious studies along the
                   \_ There is a huge difference between philosophical
                     taoism, which came into form around the same period
                     as confucianism, and religious taoism, which came
                     into form a bit later.  Although the latter claims
                     to follow the former, in many ways it contradicts
                     the former.  Similarly, religious buddhism is antithetical
                     to the teaching of Siddhartha in more ways than one
                     can count.  OK, I admit that I admire Chirst the saintly
                     man with godly deeds but not christians the lion meat.
              \_ The Book of Mormon is no less "contrived language" than the
                 Bible. -emarkp
                 \_ ??? No... because the bible came from original Hebrew and
                    Greek sources, and was translated a long time ago. The BOM
                    was transparently contrived to try to "fit in" with notions
                    of biblical style.
           but if you do something like that against judaism, you will be
           \_ I have no sympathy for Mormons. All you have to do is learn
              some history and just look at the book of mormon to see what
              utter bs it is. No other largish religion has such a preposterous
           \_ But he does spend a significant chunk of the book on the
              history of the mainstream non-splinter LDS church. Is that
              (in your view / in the view of other members of your church)
                    No church defines "Christianity"
              basis. Look at the contrived language in the BOM.
                    \_ they don't believe Christ was God but another prophet
                       \_ neither do jews, muslims, or hindus. so what?
                          \_ and that's why they're not called Christians!
                       \_ I'm sorry, but you're a moron.  Who the heck
                          The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
                             Mormons adopt a large set of beliefs that
                       \_ I'm sorry, but you're a mormon.  Who the heck
                             aren't in Christianity. Therefore you don't call
                 \_ you find a cartoon to be 'not that far from the mark' and
                    thus a good source of primary information?   make that
                    motd stupid person this spring award.  it's a cartoon
                    intended to mock that which we _already_ understand.  my
                    god, the morons are out in force today.
                    \_ As are the mormons, apparently.
                             it Christianity, but Mormon. It's very simple.
                             \_ Ok then, please tell me which
            \_ I have no sympathy for Mormons. All you have to do is learn
                                denominations are christian a which
                                aren't.  Apparently believing Christ is
                                divine isn't enough.
                                \_ There is only one Church which uses the
                                   Book of Mormon and it isn't Christian.
                                   There's nothing wrong with not being
                                   Christian, but I find it odd that Mormons
                                   think that they are and argue that they are.
                                   \_ Umm.. so.  Only the Catholics use
                                      the apocropha, are they not
                                      Christian?  The Book of Mormon is
           \_ If Christ was a carpenter, I wonder what he charged for
                                      primarialy a book about CHRIST.
                       \_ I'm sorry, but you're an idiot.  Who the heck
                          told you Mormon's don't believe Jesus CHRIST
                          was divine?  That's why we call him CHRIST.
                          The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
                          is the offical church name, not Mormon.  Mormon
                          is a nickname from our study of the Book of
            \_ I have no sympathy for Morons. All you have to do is learn
              some history and just look at the book of mormon to see what
              utter bs it is. No other largish religion has such a preposterous
              basis. Look at the contrived language in the BOM.
              \_ mormons are happy being moron.  they dont need your sympathy.
              \_ what about scientology?
                   can count.  OK, I admit that I admire Chirst the man but
                   not christians.
              \_ no, all religions are completely contrived and silly.
                \_ don't confuse "religions" with "religious dogma"
                   For example, Taoism and Buddhism are mainly philosophy
                 changes?  Yes.  But not like they mention.  Most of the
                   and the Talmud describes a huge number of moral questions
                   without simply saying "because we said so."  -brain
                 a number of "Hebrewisms" grammatical forms simlar to
                   \_ yes and in the end it's all about 'believe in our god
                      the way we say so because'.  dont get lost in the
                      pseudo intellectualism of religious studies along the
                 changes?  Yes.  But not like they meantion.  Most of the
                        \_ don't be lame; the Tao and Buddhism don't have a
                 a number of "Hebrewisms" gammatical forms simlar to
                           \_ actualy, there are gods in both taoist and
                              buddhist *religion*, while the original taoist
                 \_ Do you support the aggresive prosylization and the
                    conversion of the deceased?  I agree Mormon's are
                    not along in agressive prosylization, but I believe
                    they are unique in the "ancestor conversion".
\_ I participated in some discussion of this episode a while back.
                              and buddhism philosophy/teaching have none.
                              They were, in fact, both agnostic in a sense.
                              see below
        \_ that was a good episode.  I had similar questions, and I actually
           went to the official Mormon site to see what they believed.
           I think what Mormons believe is a bit on the crazy side,
           but I do respect many of their values and their family friendly
                   \_ There is a huge difference between philosophical
                     taoism, which came into form around the same period
                     as confucianism, and religious taoism, which came
        \_ I participated in some discussion of this episode a whlie back.
                     into form a bit later.  Although the latter claims
                     to follow the former, in many ways it contradicts
                     the former.  Similarly, religious buddhism is antithetical
                     to the teaching of Siddhartha in more ways than one
                     can count.  OK, I admit that I admire Chirst the saintly
                     man with godly deeds but not christians the lion meat.
              \_ The Book of Mormon is no less "contrived language" than the
                 Bible. -emarkp
                 \_ ??? No... because the bible came from original Hebrew and
                    Greek sources, and was translated a long time ago. The BOM
                    was transparently contrived to try to "fit in" with notions
                    of biblical style.
        \_ for an unsympathetic but very well researched introduction to
           mormonism, i highly recomend "under the banner of heaven,"
           by Jon Krakauer.
           \_ Um, not exactly.  Krakauer focuses a lot on splinter groups, not
              the LDS church. -emarkp
           \_ But he does spend a significant chunk of the book on the
              history of the mainstream non-splinter LDS church. Is that
              (in your view / in the view of other members of your church)
        \_ Not to gang up on anyone, but this episode also ranks as one of
           my primary sources of information on Mormonism and it doesn't say
           much for the religion-- not that any other religion is better but
           merely that it would be nice to know more.
           \_ anyone who uses a south park episode as their primary source
              for *anything* needs to be shot.  you 'win' the prize for
              "motd stupid person on the motd" for this entire month.  no,
              i'm not mormon.  i'm an atheist.
              \_ actually, i find south park to not be that far from the
                 mark usually.
                 \_ you find a cartoon to be 'not that far from the mark' and
                    thus a good source of primary information?   make that
                    motd stupid person this spring award.  it's a cartoon
                    intended to mock that which we _already_ understand.  my
                    god, the morons are out in force today.
                    \_ As are the mormons, apparently.
        \_ Mormonism's roots are actually no more whacky than any of the
           myriad of religions out there. Christianity is basically just
           hero worship from a carpenter who got nailed to a cross,
           Islam started off as the cult of Mohammed who basically got
           rich off of marrying the right woman and who couldn't move a
           mountain so he walked over to it, Scientology is just a scam
           by L. Ron Hubbard, Jews believe that god spoke to Moses
           through a burning bush, eastern religions are often merely
           ancestor worship mixed up with Confucionism/Buddhism/etc.
           So as long as it isn't hurting anyone and people in it are
           generally happy, law-abiding citizens Mormonism isn't really
           much whackier than Catholicism or Baptists. I mean, whatever
           brainwashing method works for you, whether it be god talking
           into a hat or you believing in lucky rabbit's foot, that gets
           you through the day should be fine in the U.S.
           \_ If Christ was a carpenter, I wonder what he charged for
              \_ beating your wife?
           \_ that's not really my point. i just want to know whether
              our csua mormons actually believe in say, joseph smith
              being a prophet. if they're mormons just to be happy, that's
              all fine and well, i don't care.
                    conversation of the deceased?  I agree Mormon's are
              \_ Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and spoke with God
                 face to face as did Moses.  -emarkp
                    \_ whats wrong with post-death conversion?  the dead dont
                       care and it makes the living feel better.  -atheist
                    \_ The dead only convert if they want to.  We can't
                       force anyone to convert, even if they're dead.  But
                       we do give them a chance.  (Catholics send them
                        straight to hell)
                    \_ What is "conversation of the deceased"? -emarkp
        \_ How sad.  Students at top schools satisfy their intellectual
           curiosity by watching an episode of South Park.
           \_ actually, i'd been coding for some time and needed a break. -op
              \_ you needed a big fat cookie, troll
           \_ I believe in dog.  Hah!  Get it?  That's god spelled
              backwards! Dog is my co-pilot!
        \_ Ok, I'm Mormon and I'll answer this.  That episode was idiotic.
           I mean, it reduces the facts to childlike simplicity, then
           represented them badly and out of context.  As far as do
           Mormons actually believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.  Yes.
           Of course we do.  Try reading the Book of Mormon yourself.
           It's an amazing book. I'll be happy to discuss this with
           anyone in a context more serious that the motd anytime.
              is this true?
              \_ Well, yes an no.  First, has it gone through 4100
                 changes?  Yes.  But not like they mention.  Most of the
                 changes were punctuation, which wasn't written by JS at
                 all, but by the printers assistant.  Also, there were a
                 a number of "Hebrewisms" grammatical forms simlar to
                 hebrew that made it into the first edition, that were
                 corrected in the second.  Second: Did JS use the
                 seerstone? Yep. Why? I don't know.  During later
                 translation works he didn't use anything at all
                 sometimes.  Is any of this a secret?  Uhh.. No.  It's
                 well known in the church, and the missionaries will
                 tell you too.  I could go on, but this is the motd.
              \_ Basically, no.  It's got a very low signal to noise ratio.
                 With some effort you can pick out some truthful bits, but it's
                 basically wrong. -emarkp
                 \_ Do you support the aggresive prosylization and the
                    conversion of the deceased?  I agree Mormon's are
                    not along in agressive prosylization, but I believe
                    they are unique in the "ancestor conversion".
        \_ I participated in some discussion of this episode a while back.
           Same username:
        \_ that was a good episode.  I had similar questions, and I actually
           went to the official Mormon site to see what they believed.
           I think what Mormons believe is a bit on the crazy side,
           but I do respect many of their values and their family friendly
2004/3/8 [Reference/Religion] UID:12573 Activity:nil
3/8     Why are some of the active religious discussions being censored?
        \_ haha. funny is you.
        \_ Because Xtians have nothing to do with Linux.  It isn't censorship.
           It is purifying the motd of unclean influences.  Who cares about
           Jesus when you have Linus?
           \_ Let's start a Mohammed thread.
              \_ And then a motdedit thread!
2004/3/7-8 [Reference/Religion] UID:12556 Activity:high
3/7     So I'm not a Christian but I thought Passion of the Christ was pretty
        cool, especially the costumes and the different languages they used.
        At any rate, since I'm not a Christian, I'm wondering why the Arab/Jew
        people wanted Jesus to be crucified? Didn't they show that he
        was well liked before? What happened to his followers? Why didn't
        they help him?                  -ignorant but curious agnostic guy
             \- hello you may wish to see ~psb/MOTD/XtainsJewsRomans --psb
        \_ Jesus followers were scared.  they could be killed themselves.
        \_ There were a couple of things involved here.  First of all, in
           the manner of Christ's teaching, he was claiming to be God,
           which was heresy in the eyes of the Jewish religious leaders.
           Secondly, he had managed to really piss off the Pharisees, a
           sect of Judaism that had considered themselves more holy than
           anyone else due to their more stringent rules of behavior.
           Jesus taught a number of times to them and called them "brood of
           vipers" and basically said that they had missed the forest for
           the trees, and was branding their particular form of legalism
           as true righteousness.  As for the common people, and Judas...
           there is a common theological belief that perhaps the Jewish people
           were expecting the Messiah to be a political figure that would
           help lead the overthrow of the Roman occupation, thus fulfilling
           the Old Testament prophecy that he would be a savior of his
           people.  The zealot movement may have been one of the reasons
           why Jesus was killed, since he showed no real sign that he was
           going to be that leader.  -- chaos
        \_ The short version of what Chaos said is that Jesus was basically
           a trouble maker, he rubbed everyone the wrong way, he was asking
           for it and got what was coming to him for being such a dick.  The
           historical Jesus knew what was coming and had lots of time to leave
           the city and stop stirring shit up which is all any of the Powers
           That Be really wanted but Jesus was having none of that.  No one
           really *wanted* to kill Jesus.  The people then were no more blood
           thirsty or barbaric than people today.  If you knew what you were
           doing was stirring up a witch hunt that was almost certain to lead
           to your death would you stick around and keep stirring or shut up
           and go elsewhere until things cooled off?  Jesus chose death.
           \_ not really, they loved him when he was healing the sick,
              performing other miracles like feeding 5000. They didn't
              he was forgiving sins.
              \_ Two very different "they"s.  "They" the people love anyone who
                 makes their miserable lives better.  "They" the authorities
                 don't care either way until you step on "their" toes.
                 \_ Nah, there was big trouble with or without Jesus.  There
                    were multiple violent revolts against the Romans before
                    Jesus, and not long after Jesus, the Romans sent many
                    legions to flatten Jerusalem, leading to patriotic but
                    futile actions like the Masada resistance and mass
                    suicide of the Jews.  You have Jews advocating violence
                    on one side, Roman pets like Herod on the other, and
                    corrupt Jewish priests like Caiaphas who tried to appease
                    both sides, so as to continue to exploit the common
                    people and live extravagantly.  Jesus offered a vision
                    and a way out, for the Jews, and also applicable to
                    everyone else.
                    \_ Technically it wasn't mass suicide.  It was mass murder
                       followed by a single suicide.  Anyway, as for the rest,
                       yes everything was a mess and Jesus knew what he was
                       doing when he stuck his nose in it.
                       \_ it was mass assisted suicide followed by a single
                          unassisted one.
                          \_ the concept of allowing someone to kill you being
                             suicide vs. murder is worthy of more than a sub-
                             thread on the motd.  they believed it was not
                             suicide which is why they did it that way.  one
                             could extrapolate back and say their entire
                             rebelion was suicide but it doesn't work like that
           \_ thanks guys, I understand this part of history a lot better
              now.  My question is, why Christians later HATE Roman and Greeks?
              I am talking about systematic destruction of Roman and Greek
              knowledge and literatures by the Christian church, and the deep
              resentment toward Roman Empire as a whole?
              \_ I'm not entirely sure what period of history you're
                 referring to in this question.  After hundreds of years of
                 persecution, the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its
                 official religion (via Emperor Constantine) and the
                 canonization process of the Bible took place because
                 Constantine wanted an official document for his troops.
                 \_ the time between fall of (western) Roman Empire and
                    Renaissance.  Christian Churchs were systemtically
                    destorying classical literatures.  I thought this is a
                    well-known facts.
                    \_ Erm, as I've heard it, the Church and its libraries
                       were what preserved a great deal of literature that
                       otherwise would have been lost.
                       \_ This is only a very small truth. It was Muslims who
                          preserved the vast majority of this work. Sometime
                          later, the Christian church began rediscovering this
                          material, more often than not having to translate it
                          from Arabic. For a good historical fictionalization
                          of this process, check Umberto Eco's "The Name of the
                          Rose" - the book not the movie.
                          \_ One of those movies ruined by some loudmouth idiot
                             when I was in school and had to wait almost 10
                             years to enjoy later... sigh.
                    \_ I must've missed the part about Christians hating
                       Greeks, since the Greek church is the Christian
                       church. Maybe you should elaborate upon this. I
                       don't recall the Church destroying the Iliad.
                       \- hello there are significant differences in values
                          and such between the homeric greeks, the golden
                          age of athens [plato, the famous attic dramatists],
                          and the koine period. we dont interchangable use
                          "italians and romans" or "franks and the french".
                          if you are really interested, you can see if this
                          lecture was recorded:
                          although that may be a little hard to follow. --psb
                          \_ it's all greek to me.
                       \_ thankfully not, just skimming it was worth 20% of
                          my final grade in my ancient greece history class.
        \_ It's all about power. Sure Jesus starts out talking about love,
           peace, and God, but what happens if he attracts LOTS of followers?
           Who knows what's going to happen? Revolt and seize Palastine? The
           Romans dealt with it by knocking off those who they couldn't
           control or couldn't trust. Those in power under the blessing of
           the Romans did the same thing. Keep things nice, calm, and stable.
           \_ Jesus did attract a lot of followers, and Christianity
              eventually spread through the Roman Empire.  On the other
              hand those who advocated violent resistance against the
              Romans (equally guilty are the Roman toadies) finally brought the
              Roman legions to Jerusalem's gates not long after Jesus' time.
                      \_ Christians don't worship Jesus, they worship The Holy
                         \_ That is just a BS handwaving excuse to try
                            and disguise the fact that Christians worship
                            a dead human being and do not follow the First
                            Commandment. Christians pray to Christ, put
              Roman legions to Jerusalem's gates not long after Jesus' time.
                            shrines of Christ in their temples and ask
                            Christ to save them. Trying to claim that they
                            do not "worship" Jesus is hogwash. At the very
                            least they hold up a dead man as equal to God.
        \_ "One day, a Jewish guy was lamenting that his son had become a
           Christian. The other one says, funny you should mention it. My son,
           too. They decide to talk to God about it. God says: Funny you
           should mention it." --Bob Alper, 59, Vermont rabbi
           \_ is the quote trying to suggest that God is Jewish?
                   themselves differently? Same with Catholics vs. Christian vs.\
                   Jahov's witness vs. some other gangs vs. etc
              \_ Do you like being stupid.
              \_ Hmm.  Two Jewish Guys.  Talking to their God....
                \_ I'm just confused with this Christian and Jew thing. Don't
                   they worship the same God? If they do, why do they label
                   themselves differently? Same with Catholics vs. Christian vs.
                   Jahov's witness vs. some other gangs vs. etc
                   \_ Yeah, Jews worship God. Christians worship a man.
                      Stop censoring this fuckhead. -goy
                      \_ Christians don't worship Jesus.  They worship God and
                         revere Jesus as the son of God.
                         \_ If you haven't studied it, don't claim to know.
                         \_ Why do they all end their prayers with
                            "In Jesus name, Amen"?
                            \_ Because he's revered, duh.  They pray to God
                               "Oh most merciful God..."
                                  Christians, who twist anything to their
                               \_ Jews and Muslims manage to pray to God
                                  own liking.
                                  without sneaking some third person in there.
                                  Why is that? Because they take God's
                                  commandments seriously, unlike the
                                  Christians, who twist everything to their
                                  own liking. I mean look at this:
                                  Number 1 and number 2 contradict themselves.
                                  The whole Christian religion is founded on
                                  this schizophrenia.  [formatd]
          The Nicene Creed was born out of a conference held to answer the
          question of what exactly was the relationship of God and Jesus.  Was
          Jesus God taking human form?  Was Jesus made by God to teach us?  Was
          he concieved?  They wanted to agree on one version and settle
          controversies.  Nicea was basically a big compromise.  They decided
          that Jesus was not God, but was of the same being as God, which is
                             \_ Hmm... "God of God, Light of Light, True God
                                of True God.
                                \_ But there's "Jesus Christ, the Son of God
                                   ... being of one essence with the Father"
          a bit weird.  It's like saying they're part of the same thing.  Kind
          of like Jesus is an appendage of God, to get a bit anthropomorphic.
          \_ The best way to understand the relationship between Christ and
             God is to read what Jesus says about it in the Gospels.
             Everything else is just people's interpretations of what Jesus
             \_ Jesus roolz, church droolz.
             \_ He couldv'e written a man page or something.  I hate when the
                developers don't bother to document their shit.
                \_ what do you mean?  that's the official man page.
                   \_ No.  That's a revision history.
                      \_ yea, like from beta to official release
          \_ I think it's slightly inaccurate.  You might want to read John
             1.  Most theologically orthodox Christian groups follow the
             Apostles' Creed, which claims that Jesus was fully God, fully
             human.  -chaos
             \_ The Nicene Creed is used by Catholics and, IIRC, most
                Protestants, so it's fairly representative of the Christians
                you'd find in America.
                \_ Jesus Christ is True God and True Man.  Catholics and
                   many other Christians believe this.

[so which is worse?  people overwriting other people's stuff or motdedit
 munging the order things are posted so they don't make sense anymore?]
2004/3/1 [Reference/Religion] UID:12463 Activity:nil
2/29    somewhere in here is definitive proof of God:
2004/2/25-26 [Reference/Religion] UID:12400 Activity:high
2/24    well, this proves it I guess....
        \_ Proves what? That the film was made in Italy?
           \_  That God exists, I reckon.  I love that He gets third
                billing. -phuqm
                \_ where is this now?
           \_ It does help explain why Romans weren't harsely judged...
           \_ yes, that God exists of course... or that Mel Gibson is
              the most arrogant film-maker on earth.
              \_ Is that why he made himself into a crucified Jesus figure
                 at the end of Braveheart?
           \_ They removed the reference. Do a search for "God" under IMDB's
              people and it shows the artifact of Him being one of the writers
              for TPotC.
              people and it shows the artifact of Him being one of the writers
              \_ Is that why he made himself into a crucified Jesus figure
                 at the end of Braveheart?
              for TPotC.
              \_ YES!! I succeeded... after coming across this I submitted
                 a correction to imdb and apparently this listened. -op
              \_ Is that why he made himself into a crucified Jesus figure
              \_ I don't see what you're talking about.  It sounds like
                 the web page may have been revised?  "Aiya!" indeed.
                 \_ they removed the reference... read 9 lines up.
           It used to say Jesus, the Christ and now it says Jesus???
           That is it?
           \_ God is God and jesus is a prophet.  Get your religion right.
                 at the end of Braveheart?
                 \_ Christ imagery is common in literature/movies.  Cross
                    shapes are handy for stretching people out for
              \_ Credited as writing the novel.  It's a silly reference to the
                 Bible as source material.
              \_ YES!! I succeeded... after coming across this I submitted
                 a correction to imdb and apparently they listened. The
                 system works people.   -op
        \_ if the purpose was to show an actor listed for Jesus, there are lots
           of IMDB pages like this, e.g.,
           \_ Aiya! Look down a little. See Novel? See Authors? Kids these
              days. What did you score on the Verbal?
              \_ I don't see what you're talking about.  It sounds like
                 the web page may have been revised?  "Aiya!" indeed.
                 \_ they removed the reference... read 9 lines up.
           It used to say Jesus, the Christ and now it says Jesus???
           That is it?
           \_ God is God and jesus is a prophet.  Get your religion right.
2004/2/23-24 [Reference/Religion] UID:12368 Activity:high
2/23    New Yorker review of Passion of Christ - note that this is a _film_
        review people.
        \_ "This is the most violent film I have ever seen." Roger Ebert
        \_ is this really a review or more Gibson bashing?
           \_ Its a film review.  Inherently its one viewer's opinion.
        \_ Hi, I recommend this site for a realistic perspective:
        \_ So it's basically Sunday church for the Kill Bill crowd, yes?
           How tempting.
           \_ Kill Jesus. Vol 1.
              \_ With an exclusive soundtrack featuring hit songs by your
        \_ No, it's not a review.  He complains that Gibson isn't showing the
           good bits of Jesus' ministry, but that was never the scope of the
           movie.  It's like criticizing the Lord of the Rings for not showing
           The Hobbit.
           \_ must...supresss...rage...about...portrayal of Faramir's character.
              \_ That's a legitimate criticism of the movie though.  You
                 thought the adaptation of the character wasn't good, and the
                 changes in the movie from the events of the book change the
                 character.  Gibson is only covering the last day of Jesus'
                 mortal life.  He's *not* trying to cover the Sermon on the
              \_ nerd, you'll get over it.  the rest of us can't even identify
                 the character.
                 \_ Yes, I'm a nerd.  Nerds pick apart those movies like
                    crazy, and even though many of us like them, we get
                    pissed about some pretty little details.  Those books
                    are pretty important to nerds, but not as important as the
                    bible is to christians.  If they react the way nerds did
                    to the LOTR movies, that's probably a good sign actually.
                    Also, the reason you can't remember who Faramir is is that
                    they left out or ruined all of his character development
                    in the movie--that's the point.
                    \_ I can't identify most of the others either.  It was
                       mostly a bunch of white guys in beards smacking the
                       bad guys with swords.  To say that LOTR isn't quite as
                          \_ *laugh* are you _still_ recovering from abuse in
                             highschool?  you're old enough to buy a girl if
                             that's what you need.  if you pay her enough you
                             can even get her to tell all your friends she's
                             your girlfriend and not an oakland corner hooker.
                       mostly a bunch of white guys in beards smacking the
                       bad guys with swords.  To say that LOTR isn't quite as
                       important to you as the bible is to Christians doesn't
                       paint you in the positive light you think it does.
                       important to you as the bible is to Christians doesn't
                       paint you in the positive light you think it does.
                       \_ Not being able to identify with something and calling
                          someone a nerd for being able to doesn't make them
                          nerds, it makes you an idiot.  A hostile idiot to
                          boot, the kind that used to roam high school
                          playgrounds.  You didn't grow up either, like most
                          of hostile high school idiots did.  Sign your name,
                          idiot, I want to mock you some more in person.
                            -- ilyas
                            \_ woah! you had a playground at your highschool?
                               That rules.
                 drawn between TPOTC and Korn....
        \_ Writing credits goes to...
                 favorite Christian rock band, Faith + 1!
        \_ No, it's not a review.  He complains that Gibson isn't showing the
           good bits of Jesus' ministry, but that was never the scope of the
           movie.  It's like criticizing the Lord of the Rings for not showing
           The Hobbit.
           \_ Poor comparison. LOTR had a coherent plot. TPOTC keys on the
              imagery of the blood sacrifice (the climax only). What's the
              point? Nice people get killed every day by jerks.
              \_ The point is to present the sacrifice as written.  The context
                 drawn between TPOTC and Michael Moorcock's Arioch....
                 is the Gospels.  Read them for the backstory, if you don't
                 know it already.  The point is to look at this and say, "He
                 did this for us.  Wow."
        \_ I prefer this version of Jesus's life:
        \_ interesting contrasts between salon's review soundbites
           ( and
           rotten tomatoes' (link above).
        \_ 'The depictions in "The Passion," one of the cruellest movies in
            the history of the cinema, are akin to the bloody Pop
            representation of Jesus found in, say, a roadside shrine in
            Mexico, where the addition of an Aztec sacrificial flourish makes
            the passion a little more passionate.'
           Now _that's_ an evocative review.
           \_ Mm, mm, good! Blood for the Blood God!
              \_ Hehehehe, we laugh, but there are tremendous parallels to be
                 drawn between TPOTC and Korn....
        \_ Writing credits goes to...
2004/2/23-24 [Reference/Religion] UID:12363 Activity:nil
2/23    Who is going to see Passion and why?
        \_ I will go.  Any movie which has Satan speak in Aramaic has
           to be worth my time.  -- ilyas
           \_ kewl.. i'm going too :)
              \_ Hmm. I was planning to wait for the DVD, but now I'm thinking
                 it would be fun to go wearing an upside-down cross and
                 eyeshadow. And kind of be a Satan fanboy. I wonder when the
                 licensed action figures and video games come out?
                 \_ I am still waiting for schindler's list action figures.
                    do you know when they will be coming out with those?
                    \_ Schindler's list slash-fiction
           \_ Can I go with you, ilyas?
              \_ Sure, come on down to LA. -- ilyas
        \_ me.  at first, i thought it's going to be another boring
           christ movie, but after looking at its website, i thought
           it could be interesting, and bring to life what was
           described in the gospels, how it was really like, at least
           mel's interpretation and imagination of it.
        \_ I'm going to go see it so I can dismiss the trolls who post about
           it (without having seen it) in the weeks to come.
           \_ wow. how much time/money do you spend a year gearing up for
              motd flame wars?
        \_ It's probably worth watching for its historic value, regardless
           of your religious views.
           \_ I'll definitely watch it.  But I would also watch things like
              the 10 Commandments, a movie on the life of Buddha or Mohammed
              or the Dalai Lama
              \_ Yay, "Little Buddha" and "Seven Years in Tibet"!  Hey, does
                 "Bulletproof Monk" count?
        \_ I may go because I look forward to being pissed off at Mel Gibson.
           Part of me also wants it to be very controversial so we can rip it
           apart and show what a crock all this is.
        \_ DVD will be great, should include all the hoopla and
        directing and lightning strikes..
2004/2/19 [Reference/Religion] UID:12306 Activity:nil
        My score was 51%, meaning I am a moral relativist
        compared to most people. But I already knew that.
        \_ 84%. -- ilyas
           \_ Ah, the truth comes out, Ilya!  Funny, I NEVER would have guessed
              you would have scored so HIGH.  No, you?  NAHHHH.  I got %41 by
              the way, which I guess just proves once again how much of a
              Heathen I am.  --lye
              \_ You are not a heathen, your beliefs are just so much more ...
                 flaccid. -- ilyas
                 \_ Better than my beliefs being rigid.  Natch!  --lye
        \_ 75% -- I'm probably similar to those guys below but I think there
           are some cases of "not helping" people that would be wrong. I think
           the ones where you fail to notify authorities of crimes has some
           element of wrongness. You'd be allowing others to maybe come to
           harm. Ditto the one where you notice a machine will hurt someone.
           Then I allow for the case where if someone was in severe need and
           you could help at almost no effort, then you'd be an asshole not
           to. That's not to say that most street people are really in severe
           need, or that my "little cost" would actually help them. But if
           someone was lying there bleeding and I had a cell phone I think it
           would be wrong not to call the police or something. I guess it's
           hard to separate the moral obligation from the desire. But I look at
           the moral code as what I'd expect from others in my community. So
           I think it's ok to define some minimal level of helping that one
           is obligated to do. (There's also the biblical example where the
           Moses or someone said not to harm non-Jews, but if one was like
           stuck in a well, Jews shouldn't lower a rope (etc.). To me that's
           immoral. Also, seeing someone drop a wallet, I think it's immoral
           to just take it with no effort to return it. Actually though, the
           "helping others" aspect is not what that score measures, but rather
           the degree to which you (don't) vary your principles according to
           various factors such as relatedness.
           \_ never heard of this not lowering rope for non-jew thing.  are
              you sure it's a biblical example.  in fact it's directly
              opposite to what jesus teaches in the parable of the good
        \_ 92%.  i drew a strong distinction between what i would do and and
           what i am morally obligated to do.
           \_ Can you make sure the answer review at the bottom matches
              what you chose?  92% is the score you get when you close
              your browser, and visit the last .cgi Success page directly.
              The script in this case determines all your answers were the
              first choice for each question.
              \_ i did review the answers, and they were logged correctly.
                 i take moral obligations seriously, and i try to be
                 consistent in their application.  ultimately, i do not
                 believe i have a moral obligation to help others.  if i
                 do help, i do because i wish to and not because i have to.
                 \_ Same theme for me.  Not sure why there is a discrepancy
                    between our scores.  I think maybe they vary the questions
                    a little between each run.  -- ilyas
                    \_ to be honest, i don't even know why i was docked
                       the 8%.  i thought i was quite perfectly consistent.
              \_ obtw, i did not choose the first alternative for all my
                 answers.  so it is quite possible to answer 'no' quite
                 often and still get a 92%.
        \_ 55%, though the interesting thing I found was that I am apparently
           a traitor to my gender. -- ulysses
        \_ 69%
           \_ That means you're orally relative.
                   \- that's pretty funny. not as good as "moaning
                      becomes elektra" but pretty funny. 46% btw. --psb
        \_ The questions are stupid.  As christians, we are obliged to
           help those in need.  However, we also need to know our abilities
           and where they are most useful and most in need, and allocate
           our resources accordingly.  We sometimes are also obliged to
           stop evil things from continuing.  The above two principles
           should be enough for all those silly questions.
           \_ Here is what bothers me about Christians.  Given their belief
              system, unless you go off like the hardcore medieval saints
              like St. Francis, you are basically a hypocrite.  I wouldn't
              be able to live with myself as a Christian, I would either
              rethink my beliefs or give away all possessions and go help
              lepers somewhere.  If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't really
              call myself a Christian.  -- ilyas
              \_ You don't need to go back to medieval times, there are
                 many doing it this very day and age.  However, to answer
                 your question, yes, Christians should not live extra-
                 vagantly.  However, helping those in need is an ongoing
                 life-long thing.  Do make sure you can take care of the
                 needs of your wife and kids, and that they are not
                 starving or dropping out of school or becoming drug
                 addicts.  Otherwise, you would need others to take care
                 of you instead of you taking care of others.  That would
                 not do anyone good.  However, yes, Christians should
                 always place the Lord above worldly possessions.  If one
                 day the Lord says to give away all your possesions to
                 the poor and follow the Lord, one should be ready to do
                 it.  I am not saying it's easy, and many Christians will
                 not be able to do it, but it is what one should strive
                 \_ I don't have the will to be a Christian.  I would rather
                    be a good agnostic than a bad Christian.  -- ilyas
                    \_ That's your choice.  But even for Christians it's
                       not through the power of will, but through
                       salvation and becoming one with Christ.  It should
                       be full of joy!
                       \_ God won't kill your dragons for you.  -- ilyas
                          \_ Yes he does.  Being a good agnostic, on
                             the other hand, is a difficult job.
                             \_ I think we have some fundamental differences
                                on the nature of God.  As the old russian
                                seminary school joke goes "even God cannot
                                beat an ace with a deuce."  Similarly,
                                God can't beat a dunce into an ace. -- ilyas
                                \_ no, God cannot beat an ace with
                                   deuce, but he keeps getting aces last time
                                   I tried playing poker with him.  and yes,
                                   he unceasingly beat dunces into aces too,
                                   through christ.
2004/2/18 [Reference/Religion] UID:29819 Activity:nil
2/17    Mel Gibson - Jesus freak  = still attractive?
        \_ "still"?!
        \_ Why does someone else's beliefs offend you so much?  He doesn't
           run around shoving them in anyone's face.  He isn't trying to get
           judges to mandate what elected officials won't do.  He is a
           religious man who made a movie that you're not required to see.
           Before you start in with the ad hominen, I'm a Jew, who thinks
           Mel's movie is anti-semitic trash from what I understand of it but
           if that's how he wants to spend his money, he's welcome to.  I won't
           support it with my open wallet but I won't call him a freak either.
           \_ Based on past experience, I'd rather not say any movie is
              anti-whatever until I see it for myself.  Not that I care
              about this movie--it sounds pretty boring--but if you do
              care, I say go see it, then judge for yourself.
           \_ Well, hell, since you've opened the troll-gate, what about it
              (from what you've heard) makes you think it's anti-semitic? And
              how is it more anti-semitic than the Passion Plays that the
              Catholic Church sponsors around Easter?
2004/2/9 [Reference/Religion] UID:12176 Activity:moderate
2/9     Serious question (any trollish responses will be deleted):  I watched
        "Nature" on PBS last night.  It was an episode on diamonds.  They
        mentioned that Hasidic Jews dominated the diamond business, from
        New York to Antwerp.  Showed a lot of Hasidic Jews cutting diamonds
        and dealing diamonds, etc.  Anybody know how this business became
        this way?  Thanks.
        \_ If i see you delete one response, I'll kill your whole fucking
           thread, you asshole censor.
        \_ Go read the Elders of Zion and the Arab media and you'll have a full
           and complete understanding of this and other Jewish Conspiracies.
        \_ This is a shot in the dark but perhaps it grew out of Jews running
           Europe's banking system in the past because of biblical prohibitions
           against usury.  They were probably the best people at assessing and
           guarding jewelery.  Notice the eytmology.
        \_ Oh!  Oh!  He censored a response!  Better delete the whole thread now
           big man!
2004/1/26 [Reference/Religion] UID:11935 Activity:high
1/25    How come a lot of Muslim countries hate America? I mean, what is it
        we did that offended them?
        \_ Interesting theory (not mine):  Arab culture, such as it is, grew
           up in the last 300 years as primarily a trading one, as opposed to
           western manufacturing/innovating cultures.  Combine this with a
           religion which has never undergone a serious widespread reformation
           or set of challenges, and you have the dangerous mix of a large,
           poor class of uneducated people and a very conservative, stick-in-
           the-mud clergy.  It's easy to whip people up against a simplistic
           the-mud clerggy.  It's easy to whip people up against a simplistic
           enemy (read 1984?) especially if your religion has the grass roots
           decentralized nature of islam.  Voila, instant foe.  Could happen
           anywhere with those criteria.  What I'd like to know is why so many
           Indonesian and Malay muslims I've spoken to think Arabs are such
           terrible boors.  -John
           \_ Because Indonesians and Malays have a deeper culture that pre-
              dates their religion.  They have plenty of other things to
              identify themselves with.  Outside of Egypt, the Arabs don't
              because all they can point to in their past is the Crusades
              which isn't much to hang an entire culture's hat on.
              \_ What I want to know is why there was such a regression.
                 In the middle ages, the arabs had a _wonderful_ culture, we
                 got a lot of mathematics, poetry, and other science from them.
                 Are we borrowing anything from the Arabs now?  (It's not a
                 rhetorical question, I really want to know).
                 Not to mention the Ottomans, the first successful
                 multicultural state (of course it could be argued the Ottoman
                 Empire was really a secular state, nor was it an arab state).
                 Something happened between then and now, and I don't know
           terrible boors.  -John
                 what it is. -- ilyas
                 \_ Islam happened in a big way.  When your entire educational
                    system turns into nothing more than studying the Koran it
                    isn't that hard to see how your people could be passed
                    over.  Big time slavery and the suppression of women
                    doesn't help either but I doubt those are major causes.
        \_ Countries don't hate anything or anyone.  People do.  Governments
           are distinct entities from the people in each country.  Before you
           ask why X hates Y, you must decide which X and Y you're talking
           about.  Once you have answered that, any of the following motd
           answers might be partially or fully correct.
        \_ US arrogance?  Support of Israel?
        \_ There was a time when Muslim countries were rational, even trying
           to be democratic. But we turned against them, establish Israel
           at the expense of Palestinian.  We supported 1967 war, and we
           overthrown Iran's democratic government for some puppet mainly
           for the oil.  These series of events made Muslim countries decided
           that democracy or human right or what not, ultimately, imperialism
           trumpt all other western preaches.  It is then Muslim countries
           turned Islam Fundamentalism for solution, as support of western
           values clearly didn't work.
           \_ Whoa. Back up. Insert the parts about the rise of Arab
              Nationalism and the oppressive right-wing regimes supported by
              the West to oppose the Soviets, and you'll be a lot closer to
              bringing your comments in line with the truth. Remember that
              the people in many Islamic countries would love to see a
              marriage between the democratic ideals of the West and the
              moral resolve of Islam (e.g., Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Malaysia, and
              \_ ok, I was talking abou ARABS ISLAM. So, from that, you need
                 to drop Turkey, Iran, Malaysia and Indonesia.
           \_ Are you completely insane?  Do you know any actual history, or
              just the sympathetic Palestinian line?
              \_ You forgot "Why do you hate America?"
                \_ And both of you guys forgot true history, too.
        \_ jealousy
        \_ The Imams would lose power if the contries democratized/secularized,
           hence they keep their position of power by focusing the poeples'
           hate on us.  The governments do the same thing by pointing to the
           'plight of the Palestinians' to distract the populace from the
           massive human rights violations in their own countries.
2004/1/23-24 [Reference/Religion] UID:11914 Activity:high
1/23    I'm not trolling, I'm really curious:
        What is the reason given by Christians that human life or a soul or
        whatever happens at conception, and not later, such as late brain
        development or birth?  It's sure not in the bible...
        \_ Jeremiah 1:5. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
           before you were born I set you apart"
           \_ That kind of implies you have a soul before you're even concieved.
              \_ That's why the Church says condoms are bad?
                 \_ too complicated to explain here on the motd.  But that's
                    not the reason.
              \_ That's why onanism is a sin.
                 \_ Is it a sin if, instead of tossing your sperm on the ground
                    to die in cold, dry misery, you give it a nice, warm home
                    in someone's stomach?
                 \_ But sperm die on their own anyway.  And the sin of Onan was
                    that he was denying his brother an 'heir' out of spite.
                     \_ That's how I see it too, but many have interpreted it
                        as the act of wasting your seed outside a vagina.
              \_ And Mormons believe that the soul preexists our physical
                 existence.  When I've talked with traditional Christians about
                 interpretation of that passage, they respond by saying that it
                 just means that since God knows everything, including the
                 future, he could know a future-existing person before he was
                 born. -emarkp
                 \_ So you exist before you're concieved, and if a baby is
                    concieved, it's God's will.  And if they're not concieved
                    that's also God's will, but if they're concieved but then
                    aborted, it *wasn't* God's will?  That reminds me of how
                    parents will say stuff like "My son is so smart" and then
                    turn around and say "Look what your son did!"
                    \_ Hey, I'm just reporting what people have told me. -emarkp
                    \_ From God's perspective, God knows what happens.
                       But from our human perspective, we still have
                       free will.  It's still our choice.  God doesn't
                       force us to choose good or evil.  It's free will.
                       \_ Pre-ordained free-will.  Cool paradox.
                 \_ Yeah, free will is so pesky..
                    \_ Depending on your philosophical axioms, free will may or
                    \_ Depending on your philisophical axioms, free will may or
                       may not be contravened by foreknowledge. -emarkp
                 \_ Let's send a rover to the planet Kolob!
                    \_ Kolob is a star, not a planet.  Get better sources.
                       \_ Sorry, planet near the star Kolob.
                          \_ We don't know if there are any planets near the
                             star Kolob. -emarkp
                             \_ I'll stop reading Bruce McConkie then.
                                \_ Well, keep in mind he presents his opinion as
                                   his opinion.  However, on rereading, you can
                                   read Kolob to be a planet or a star.  My bad.
                             star Kolob. -emarkp
                             \_ I'll stop reading Bruce McConkie then.
                 \_ what's your definition of a traditional Christian?
                    \_ Typically I mean non-Restorationist Christians.
                       Catholics and Protestants mostly.  I haven't had much
                       interaction with Orthodox faiths.  Granted, I don't have
                       a full survey of those faiths, but have discussed this
                       point with members of many of them.  -emarkp
                       point with members of many of them.  -emarkp
        \_ Either way, if it has a soul, souls can't die. So no problem. "Go
           directly to heaven. Do not pass go, do not collect $200."
           \_ but they haven't been baptized yet, so maybe they won't
              go to heaven.
              \_ that God, he's a vengeful one. he'll throw you out on a
                 \_ not necessarily.  we can't say for sure what he'll do.
                    but why risk the salvation of souls?
                    \_ I thought only a hundred odd thousand souls were
                       getting into heaven.  And they've already been chosen,
                       since god is all-present and fore-knowing.  And that
                           \_ something I heard from some jehovah's witnesses.
                              I'm paraphrasing... and he's pretty ironic, so
                              who knows what he actually believes.
              go to heaven.
              \_ that God, he's a vengeful one. he'll throw you out on a
                 \_ not necessarily.  we can't say for sure what he'll do.
                    but why risk the salvation of souls?
                       Prince is one of them.
                       Damn.  I'm going to be stuck burning in hell and he's
                       going to be up in heaven rocking out all the ladies.
                                      \_ Why do you think that Christianity
                                         (a minority religion on this planet)
                                         is the right bet?
                        \_ did it come from one of his songs or is that
                           one of his "beliefs"?
                           \_ something I heard from some jehovah's witnesses.
                              I'm paraphrasing... and he's pretty ironic, so
                              who knows what he actually believes.
                    \_ Yeah, for all we know you're damned unless you die
                    \_ Yeah, for all we know you're damned unless you die
                       wearing a green top hat. I always wear one.
                       wearing a green top hat. I always wear one.
                       \_ believe what you want, but we'll all know the
                       \_ believe what you want, but we'll all know the
                          answers when we die, and we'll have all eternity
                          to contemplate what we could have done differently
              \_ If they're Catholic, they get to wait in Limbo.
                 \_ wait for what?
                          answers when we die, and we'll have all eternity
                          to contemplate what we could have done differently
                                \_ only if there is an eternal afterlife.
                                   \_ are you a gambling man/woman?
                                      Do you want to bet on your eternity?
                                      \_ Why do you think that Christianity
                                         (a minority religion on this planet)
                                         is the right bet?
                                      \_ if "not taking the chance" is the core
                                         of your faith and beliefs then it
                                         seems unlikely that you're going
                                         anyplace other than Hell.  I suspect
                                         "pragmatic faith" is not the route
                                         to Heaven.
              \_ If they're Catholic, they get to wait in Limbo.
                 \_ wait for what?
                    \_ until their souls are cleansed and they can then go
                       to Heaven.
                    \_ just wait. nothing in particular.
                        \_ wait for all eternity then.
                           \_ Pretty much:
        \_ Faith and logic/reason.
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Apps, Reference/Religion] UID:11796 Activity:nil
1/14    The Bible as IRC chatlog
2003/12/25-26 [Reference/Religion] UID:11589 Activity:nil
12/24   Your boy Dean is now a fundamentalist Christian!  It's so great how
        he can be whatever he needs to be instantly for any audience.  The
        guy is the ultimate chameleon candidate.  BTW, anyone have any idea
        what he's trying to hide in his sealed Vermont records? from
        \_ Ah, so "fundamentalist" means believing in Jesus and God and going
           to church occasionally.  Ok, whatever, buddy.
        \_ I didn't bother reading that but he always did talk about being
           Christian in candidate Q&A's etc. I doubt you'll find him thumping
           bibles etc.
           \_ If you read the link you'd see his latest transformation into
              bible thumper and according to his own quotes in the link which
              you failed to read he has kept his religion and personal life
              quiet and personal until now.
2003/12/10 [Reference/Religion] UID:11392 Activity:high
12/10   If you're following the news, you know that the major religions
        differ in their interpretation of the holy books.  For example, one
        way to interpret God's will is that you should love your neighbor.
        An alternate reading of the holy books might lead you to rig a
        donkey cart with small mortar rockets and aim it at a hotel full of
        infidels.  In summary, po-tay-to, poh-tah-to.
        \_ They say to love your fellow clan neighbors. As for Others, you
           can slaughter them up and down the Jordan, cuz his name is The Lord!
        \_ mean, organized religion is bunk?  Holy shit!!!  What
           a fucking revelation, dude!  Like, pass the bong and stuff.
        \_ The Holy Books are full of garbage.  Go East young man. The problems
           of class warfare, clan warfare, and hunger predate judeo-christian
           philosophy by a LONG TIME.  Your Holy Books are like the dumbed-down
           copy of Dianetics you see in the checkout line.
           \_ dumbed down? dumbed down?  insult christianity and judaism all
              you want, but if you're going to say that they're dumber than
              scientology that's just too much.  At least mohammed had a
              good command of his own language and some leadership skill.
              Hubbard was just a two bit con man.  And also, there are some
              good and some bad people in the Big Three western religions,
              whereas I've never met a scientologist who wasn't crazy.
              Read the Turn of the Wheel, by  Phillip K. Dick.
           \_ Judaism is very very old.  Also, the important bits of Judaism
              are not written down and are only passed down orally.  -- jew
2003/12/5 [Reference/Religion] UID:11321 Activity:nil
12/4    I've always found it ironic that anti-god enviormentalist types
        sound so darn religious.
        \_ Dude, don't be so damn dumb.  A lot of environmentalists are
           religious.  In fact, many of the pioneering environmentalists
           went out of their way to _justify_ their beliefs with religion.
           Not everyone fits into a neat little box like you want them to.
           \_ No! NOOOO!  Do not you bring logic or facts into this!
        \_ God hates the environment. He also hates poor people. Poor people
           are poor because God is angry with them, like AIDS people.
        \_ what does anti-god, environmentalist, and religion has anything
           to do with each other?
2003/12/4 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11318 Activity:high
12/4    Maine teacher sues over school board curriculum that prevents teaching
        about non-Christian civilizations and religions, e.g. ancient Greece:
        \_ Maine SAD1's Superintendent speaks out on the charges:
           To wit, 7th and 8th grade curriculum focuses on European and
           US History, while World History is relegated to 9th grade.  Cole
           teaches middle school.  Supe claims that Cole is welcome to
           broach non-Christian topics so long as they apply to topics set
           aside for each grade.
           \_ Thanks for the response.  I wouldn't say this settles it, though.
              Time will tell but if the charges are as baseless as the
              superintendent seems to believe, the lawsuit will be dismissed
              out of hand.  For the teacher to go through so much trouble,
              there may very well be something going on here that we don't
              yet know about.  It is true that more and more school boards
              across the country are controlled by fundamentalist groups, and
              are using their position to dictate curriculum.
              \_ what will be ironic and sad is if the conservative agendas
                 of school choice and religion in school are both
                 of school choice and religion in the school are both
                 idiot kids who were put in schools with a medieval
                 curriculum by their barbarian parents.   I think this
                 may well be where we are heading.
          \_ So the ancient Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Celts, etc. were not in
             Europe? How about native American cultures in the USA?
              yet know about.
                 pushed to the point where there is a vast underclass of
                 idiot kids who were put in schools with a midaeval
                 curriculum by their barbarian parents.
2003/11/17-18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29638 Activity:high
11/17   Top US administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, dismissed the
        new Saddam message as "a voice from the wilderness".  Doesn't
        Paul Bremer realize that the phrase is usually used to refer
        to John the Baptist and prophesies of the coming of Jesus
        the Messiah?  Are Neocons all fake Christians?
        (restored, unfortunately the followups were lost)
        \_ hi troll!
        \_ Ok, I'll bite--JtB got his head cut off, his boss got nailed to a
           telephone pole, their followers got fed to giant cats by effeminate
           Italians in dresses.  Case in point, we did a Bonnie & Clyde on
           Uday and Qusay, the little thugs, so now there's only dad left to
           go.  What exactly is your point?  -John
           \_ Come to think of it, Bush Jr. is about as cartoonish as
              Nero the Roman Emperor.
           \_ Come to think of it, Bush Jr. is as cartoonish as Nero the
              Christian killing Roman Emperor.  And that's about where
              your silly analogy ends.
           \_ Open the eyes of Christians to the true colors of the neocon
2003/11/16 [Reference/Religion] UID:11093 Activity:nil
11/15   I read that Jesus was a Jew. Can anyone explain this? I don't
        know much about religion. TIA.
        \_ Christ is accepted by Christians as the first coming of
           the Messiah, the son of God.  The Jews view him as
           another prophet (eg. Abraham), not the son of God.  The
           \_ Um, no.  The Muslims accept him as a prophet, but most Jews
              accept him as a rabbi, not a prophet (and neither the Muslims or
              Jews accept him on equal footing with Abraham).
           Jews (and Romans) had Christ crucified because his doctrine
           \_ Umm, no.  The Jews did not crucify Christ.  This is FUD used to
              justify anti-semitism.
              \_ What you say is true, but misleading. The Jews did not
                 crucify Christ, the Romans did, but they were carrying
                 out Jewish law and will when they crucified Xt. The crime
                 Xt was crucified for was blasphemy, a crime in Jewish,
                 not Roman, law. See Matthew 26-27. I do agree that this,
                 unfortunately and unfairly, has been used to justify
                 \_ what you say is true but misleading.  Jesus' death is far
                    more complicated than Pilate simply following Jewish law.
                    it would take hours to explain in person.  a single
                    passage in M26-27 doesn't cut it.  life is never that
                    simple.  the reality is that Jesus was asking for it
                    starting with the donkey ride into the city which was a
                    known prophecy for the Coming and getting under the skin
                    of every powerful person he came across and always doing
                    or saying the thing that was most likely to get him
                    killed right up to his death.  he could've left the city
                    at any time in the week before his death but didn't,
                    even though a child could've seen the consequences of his
                    actions.  or we could just say the Jews killed Jesus and
                    all hate the Jews and be done with it.  that's the easy
                    way out.
                    \_ Fair enough. My main point is that it's not effective
                       to say the original statement is false because
                       it has been used to justify anti-semitism. The
                       original statement has some truth to it (though,
                       as you point it it is much more complicated), and
                       it has unfairly been used to justify anti-semitism.
                    \_ The Jews chose between Christ and
                       and a thief, the chose to crucifiy Christ.  No
                       need to sugar-coat it or make excuses.
                 \_ christ christ christ christ fuck fuck fuck fuck
                    maybe you should take a long hard look at your
                    dumbass faith.  do you really think your god cares
                    if you post his name to the motd?  does that actually
                    make sense to you?
                    \_ What are you talking about? I'm not Christian.
                    \_ You pathetic abject atheist.  Nothing but
                       a shell of hedonistic addictions.  Sorry,
                       but the West you live in is the living
                       embodiment of monotheistic, primarily
                       Christian, dogma.  The West has prospered
                       because of these tenets, not in spite of
                       them.  But of course you are too smart...
           and claim was heretical in their view.  In the very early
           days of Christianity only Jews were allowed to convert
           Christianity, however after Jesus's death the apostles
           spread the gospels to gentiles.
           He was viewed by his non-believing contemparies as
           a Jewish prophet.
        \_ Before Christ, the Jews and the Christians were one.
           The word of God was with the Jewish people.  Jesus Christ
           was born practicing the Jewish religion.  Jesus was even
           circumcised.  Christ went to the temples, read scriptures,
           and was a loyal Jew, because the word of God was with the
           Jewish people, passed down through Abraham (today's Jews
           and today's Christians both value Abraham, Moses and others
           very much).  Later, after Christ's death, some Jews didn't
           believe Christ was the Messiah.  However, many (including
           non-Jews, the Gentiles) converted.  The people who converted
           and believed that Christ was the Messiah are called Christians.
           In the Christian Bible, the "Old Testament" and the Jewish
           Holy Books are virtually identical.
        \_ The New Testament is actually very short, and you could read just the
           Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and the book of Acts pretty
           quickly.  There are free copies of it online and just about anyone
           can give you a hardcopy free.
2003/10/29 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10833 Activity:moderate
        In particular:
            \_ What is the point of posting this stuff on the motd?
               If you're in neee of an intelligent discussion, then you
               must know there are much better places.  And if you just
               want another utterly boring and predictable.
               The csua motd truly has sunk to new depths of stupidity.
               \_ oh yeah, where?  in discussion groups on the net at large
                  there is a
                  dominant ethos and everyone else is a troll or heckler.
                  on the motd there is no dominant ethos.  I've learned
                  *a lot* from being opened up to ways of thinking different
                  from my own on the motd that I would never have learned from
                  participating in some one-sided love fest on a discussion
                  board where i agree with everyone.  If you haven't learned
                  anything from those who you disagree with, it's your loss.
                  \_ Oh, its the "I've-learned-a-lot-from-the-motd-guy."  You
                     should setup housekeeping with "UCLA-CS-guy" and
                     "freeper-guy" and the ChiCom troll and make babies.
        \_ This is Zionist propaganda - Jews control the world!!
           Actually I've told by expat Syrians, Armenians, etc.
           that many of the suicide bombers have mental problems
           and are heavily recruited by PLO, Hamas etc. because of
           their vulnerability.
           \_ Uhm... Armenians? How did they show up on this thread?
                \_ Well they do border Iran and Turkey.
2003/10/26-27 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10795 Activity:high
        So if Jews control the world, why didn't I get the memo?  I want to
        know where to signup for my piece.  I'd like something with a beach
        and friendly natives to keep the drinks flowing and the food fresh.
        Thanks!  --Salary slave Jew who stood in the wrong line
        \_ you lose.  you are not really one of the 12 tribes.
           \_ I don't think you understand how it works.  EVERYONE who was
              born of a jewish mother is a descendant of the 12 tribes.  Now
              most people don't KNOW what tribe they belong to... but that's
              a different story. -- Jew
              \_ does that count for mothers who converted too?
                 \_ no because she's definitely not one of the 12 tribes.  if
                    she can prove a connection to starbuck, apollo, or lorne
                    greene then she can appeal to the elders of zion.
                    \_ So Sammy Davis Jr isn't a chosen one?
           \_ Hey I'm totally from one of the 12 tribes.  None of this lost
              battlestar galactica 13th tribe funny business for me!  I just
              want my piece of the world!  Is one small beach and some friendly
              natives so much to ask when the rest of my people are running
              the whole world?  --op
              \_ Sorry, we don't have your piece of the world.  You are
                 asking the wrong people.
                 asking the wrong people.  And thanks for your insulting
                 patronization of us natives.
        \_ I think Mahathir is still pissed that George Soros screwed his
           country during the Asian financial crisis.
           \_ if your country got fucked half as hard, you would of
              tossing nuclear warheads instead of just bitching about
2003/10/21 [Reference/Religion] UID:29584 Activity:nil
10/20   To the "athiest" who wants an honest response from a Christian
        regarding religion and faith:
        Are you an athiest?  or are you searching?  I believe that
        determining whether there is a Creator can be done through reason.
        \_ I'm glad  you have faith in that assertion, because there's
           no other way to establish it!
        Now to determine God's nature, or whether Jesus Christ is God
        requires some faith.  For those who are searching, good for you.
        Even though I am a Christian, go ahead and do look at the other
        religions.  See what makes them tick, and try to understand each.
        Of course, since I have faith that Jesus Christ is God, I would
        like to introduce you to the Faith.  You may accept it.  You may
        reject it.  It is up to you what to do with that information.
        I do hope that you do look at Christianity with an open mind,
        even if you do look at other Religions.  We can discuss by
        email if you wish.
        \_ Unfortunately, Christianity and imperalism are inseperable.
           Even today, I can see elements of White Man's Burden when I
           look at these missionaries and their mindsets, even though
           Christanity's orgin has nothing to do with caucasian nor
           race.  Instead of focusing on things like creation of Universe,
           try to look at the not-so-gorious aspect of history, i.e.
           time between fall of Roman Empire and 1500 A.D.  Until you
           understand why people hate Christians, don't try to convince
           them to join your camp.
           \_ are you the same person discussing way down below or
              a different person?
              \_ It's not me, that's for sure. -- agnostic (weak atheist)
                 \_ I encourage you to keep on searching among
                    the different religions.  I do hope you get
                    a good representative to represent Christianity.
                    There are many different "Christian" categories too
                    such as Catholicism and different Protestant sects.
                    And even among them, more liberal, or conservative
                        \_ and, of course, they're each the One True Way.
           \_ Christians do look at the creation of the Universe.  Very
              definitely.  It shows God the Creator.  Jews believe that
              the Messiah is still coming.  As for Christians, they
              believe the entire time is part of God's salvation history.
              Jesus Christ is but one part of the entire truth, IMHO.
           \_ That's kinda a moot point, unless you're talking about
              Catholics.  Most Christian religions believe that was
              a time of apostacy, when the church was corrupt and the
              truth could not be taught.
              \_ I agree. as an athiest, i view protestant religions as
                 evil idiocy and catholicism as an evil cult.  that's
                 an important difference.
               \_ are you trying to create some devisiveness between
                  Catholics and Protestants?
                  \_ Best. Oblivious-to-the-obvious. Troll. EVER.
           \_ So how do you explain pre-Christian Roman imperialism,
              or Chinese imperialism, etc. ?
              \_ The statement "Xianity and imperialism are inseparable"
                 would be better phrased "Xianity implies imperialism."
                 The proof that the inverse is not necessarily true is
                 left to the reader.
                 \_ What you have, is at best, a weak correlation.
                    Early Christianity flourished under Rome's prosecution
                    Christianity in Korea flourished under Japan's (Shinto)
                    rule.  Pressures from British missionaries and churches
                    were key to ending the opium trade in China (against
                    British business interest).  Pre-Islamic expansion
                    Christianity in Africa has nothing to do with
                    imperialism.  Imperialism deeply affected Asia, Africa
                    and the Americas, but thhe only place were I see a
                    significant corelation is the Americas, and the
                    \_ ObTroll:  Rome and Japan were merely fighting the
                       imperialistic infection of Xianity in their
                       respective spheres of influence.  That Xianity
                       was viral and grassroots in these cases changes
                       nothing about the imperialistic dreams of its
                       proponents-- they were simply far-sighted in their
                       ambitions to bring about the Kingdom of God.
                       \_ You actually think that the motive of the Dutch
                          and British East India Companies is to bring about
                          the Kingdom of God?  Ha, what a joke.
                       \_ You actually believe that Japan killed tens of
                          millions of Chinese, Koreans, etc. to preempt
                       \_ Pressures from British missionaries and churches
                          were key to ending the opium trade in China?  I
                          thought the monarch was the head of the church there.
        \_ Ah, but am I permitted to reject your god? Christian sects are
           rooted in evangelizing. It is not enough that they are Christians,
           everyone must be. They must be converted to the Christian god.
           Some people really find that irritating.
           \_ Yes, you can reject God. But duh, of course we're going to
              share our relationship with God. It's not relativism.
              It's what we think is true.
2003/10/21-22 [Reference/Religion] UID:10717 Activity:nil
10/21   Mohammed Rosenberg was here.
2003/10/21 [Reference/Religion] UID:10709 Activity:high
10/20   To the "athiest" who wants an honest response from a Christian
        regarding religion and faith:
        Are you an athiest?  or are you searching?  I believe that
        determining whether there is a Creator can be done through reason.
        Now to determine God's nature, or whether Jesus Christ is God
        requires some faith.  For those who are searching, good for you.
        Even though I am a Christian, go ahead and do look at the other
        religions.  See what makes them tick, and try to understand each.
        Of course, since I have faith that Jesus Christ is God, I would
        like to introduce you to the Faith.  You may accept it.  You may
        reject it.  It is up to you what to do with that information.
        I do hope that you do look at Christianity with an open mind,
        even if you do look at other Religions.  We can discuss by
        email if you wish.
        \_ I'm glad  you have faith in that assertion, because there's
           no other way to establish it!
        Now to determine God's nature, or whether Jesus Christ is God
        requires some faith.  For those who are searching, good for you.
        Even though I am a Christian, go ahead and do look at the other
        religions.  See what makes them tick, and try to understand each.
        Of course, since I have faith that Jesus Christ is God, I would
        like to introduce you to the Faith.  You may accept it.  You may
        reject it.  It is up to you what to do with that information.
        I do hope that you do look at Christianity with an open mind,
        even if you do look at other Religions.  We can discuss by
        email if you wish.
        \_ Unfortunately, Christianity and imperalism are inseperable.
           Even today, I can see elements of White Man's Burden when I
           look at these missionaries and their mindsets, even though
           Christanity's orgin has nothing to do with caucasian nor
           race.  Instead of focusing on things like creation of Universe,
           try to look at the not-so-gorious aspect of history, i.e.
           time between fall of Roman Empire and 1500 A.D.  Until you
           understand why people hate Christians, don't try to convince
           them to join your camp.
           \_ are you the same person discussing way down below or
              a different person?
              \_ It's not me, that's for sure. -- agnostic (weak atheist)
                 \_ I encourage you to keep on searching among
                    the different religions.  I do hope you get
                    a good representative to represent Christianity.
                    There are many different "Christian" categories too
                    such as Catholicism and different Protestant sects.
                    And even among them, more liberal, or conservative
                        \_ and, of course, they're each the One True Way.
           \_ Christians do look at the creation of the Universe.  Very
              definitely.  It shows God the Creator.  Jews believe that
              the Messiah is still coming.  As for Christians, they
              believe the entire time is part of God's salvation history.
              Jesus Christ is but one part of the entire truth, IMHO.
           \_ That's kinda a moot point, unless you're talking about
              Catholics.  Most Christian religions believe that was
              a time of apostacy, when the church was corrupt and the
              truth could not be taught.
              \_ I agree. as an athiest, i view protestant religions as
                 evil idiocy and catholicism as an evil cult.  that's
                 an important difference.
               \_ are you trying to create some devisiveness between
                  Catholics and Protestants?
                  \_ Best. Oblivious-to-the-obvious. Troll. EVER.
           \_ So how do you explain pre-Christian Roman imperialism,
              or Chinese imperialism, etc. ?
              \_ The statement "Xianity and imperialism are inseparable"
                 would be better phrased "Xianity implies imperialism."
                 The proof that the inverse is not necessarily true is
                 left to the reader.
                 \_ What you have, is at best, a weak correlation.
                    Early Christianity flourished under Rome's prosecution
                    Christianity in Korea flourished under Japan's (Shinto)
                    rule.  Pressures from British missionaries and churches
                    were key to ending the opium trade in China (against
                    British business interest).  Pre-Islamic expansion
                    Christianity in Africa has nothing to do with
                    imperialism.  Imperialism deeply affected Asia, Africa
                    and the Americas, but thhe only place were I see a
                    significant corelation is the Americas, and the
                    \_ ObTroll:  Rome and Japan were merely fighting the
                       imperialistic infection of Xianity in their
                       respective spheres of influence.  That Xianity
                       was viral and grassroots in these cases changes
                       nothing about the imperialistic dreams of its
                       proponents-- they were simply far-sighted in their
                       ambitions to bring about the Kingdom of God.
                       \_ You actually think that the motive of the Dutch
                          and British East India Companies is to bring about
                          the Kingdom of God?  Ha, what a joke.
                       \_ You actually believe that Japan killed tens of
                          millions of Chinese, Koreans, etc. to preempt
        \_ Ah, but am I permitted to reject your god? Christian sects are
           rooted in evangelizing. It is not enough that they are Christians,
           everyone must be. They must be converted to the Christian god.
           Some people really find that irritating.
           \_ Yes, you can reject God. But duh, of course we're going to
              share our relationship with God. It's not relativism.
              It's what we think is true.
2003/10/20-21 [Reference/Religion] UID:10694 Activity:high
10/19   Has anyone ever heard of "The Landmark Forum"?  My friend has strongly
        recommended that I attend their classes.  I have heard of mostly good
        things about it.  However, I think they might be bias.  Anyone here
        has any experiences and/or comments?
        \_ I have had, at current count, six of my friends go through Landmark
           or one of its equivalents. My conclusion is that it's "mostly
           harmless". They've all gone through the same stage of intense
           enthusiasm followed about a year or two later by retrospection. I
           think it is very cult-ish and their focus on parents is monocultural
           hocum but it did really help some of my more stressed our friends
           find a kind of grip on everyday life and made them easier to hang
           around with. -- ulysses
           \_ Before or after you clubbed them in the head a few times?
              \_ After. --ulysses
        \_ It's just "est", repackaged under a different name. - danh
           \_ est.  70s-80s era self help movement with odd cultish
              aspects.  The founder fled the country and then his
              brother took over and renamed it 'The Landmark Forum'.
              I remember reading about a lot of Microsoft employees
              who were into it which made me happy.  go read
     - danh
           \_ Eastern Standard Time?
           \_ Electric Shock Therapy!
        \_ The father of a girl I dated was a speaker for this and really
           into it... it always seemed like a bit of a crock to me... I
           found this to be an interesting account of one session: (albeit
           from a jesus freak)
           btw, her father's name was "Alan Cahn" (mentioned in the article)
        \_ A cult is a cult is a cult.  If that's really your friend you
           would do something to help them escape.
        \_ A friend of mine went.  She loved it.  She thought it was the
           answer to life, love, and everything.  She then started getting all
           her friends to go to help them (even if they didn't want helping).
           When she tried to get my g/f to go, my g/f finally relucantly
           agreed.  My g/f was asked to not attend again when she kept
           questioning everything they said.  Sounds like a cult (or at least
           a pyramid scheme that feeds on peoples low self-esteem) to me.  If
           it does help people, great, but not everyone needs to be helped!!
        \_ If people want spiritual help, why can't they seek out the local
           church instead of going to these new age nonsense?  Jesus is the
           one true God.  Jesus will help you and save you.  Put your faith
           on Jesus and no one else.
           \_ I just love you guys!
           \_ I thought the Nicene Creed said Jesus was NOT God?
              \_ Of one being with the father.
                 \_ How about you actually try to explain that? The whole
                    son of god, is god, dying somehow affecting sins, etc.?
                    \_ Talk to the Pope.  This is the motd.
                    \_ are you honestly curious or just trolling?
                       \_ I'm trolling. Because they can't explain it. None
                          of it makes any sense whatsoever. The only way to
                          accept it is to just shut off your brain. The same
                          idiots watch that "crossing over" garbage. Yeah,
                          people's dead relatives have nothing better to do
                          than pathetically attempt to communicate trite
                          health advice and whatnot.
                          \_ the only reason i'm helping you now, zaphod
                             is that i can't bear the thought of you and your
                             disreputable freinds slouching around up here...
        \_ I loved it. It was much better than "Cats." I'm going to see it
           again and again.
           \_ I thought the Nicean (sp?) Creed said Jesus was NOT God?
                          \_ I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
                             I do not believe in John Edward's Crossing
                             Over.  There is a level of faith
                             which you need to have (God).  right now, maybe
                             you just don't understand or do not have
                             the Faith yet.  Nothing wrong with that
                             right now.  Just hope a good person
                             can introduce you to it all.
                             \_ Ok, I'll bite.  I'm one of the few real
                                atheists here who isn't offended by Christians
                                telling me i don't *yet* have Faith.  I don't
                                care that you wish others will find the same
                                Faith as you.  The same can be said of the
                                Linux crowd and they're much more obnoxious
                                about it and smelly as well.  What I don't
                                understand is why do you assume that others
                                will, in time, come around to your way of
                                thinking as a matter of fact?  Perhaps some
                                of us have our beliefs firmly grounded in
                                our own self exploration and will *never* come
                                around your way.  And why your way?  Why not
                                any of the umpteen other major and minor
                                religions and philosophies on the planet?  What
                                gets me about the religious is that all of you
                                take it on faith that your way is the one true
                                way but none of you have any reason to believe
                                so beyond old hand-me-down stories and books
                                or scrolls that have either been retranslated
                                a few dozen times or we can barely read the
                                langauges of today.  What's up with that?  I
                                hope you're a real Christian and not someone
                                mocking it because I'd like to get a real
                                \_ So, who introduced you to the atheist
                                   religion?  -- agnostic
                                   \_ atheist, agnostic, whatever. they're
                                      essentially the same thing. what do
                                      you call someone who believes god may
                                      or may not exist, that we may or may
                                      not be able to find out whether or not
                                      he exists, and that even if he does
                                      and we do, he probably doesn't concern
                                      himself too much with us anyway?
                                      \_ It is not essentially the same thing.
                                         An agnostic is someone who does not
                                         have enough information to comment
                                         on the existence of God.  An atheist
                                         is someone who believes he does
                                         (but doesn't).  I am very surprised
                                         people confuse the two.  As far as
                                         philosophical commitments, atheism
                                         is closer to theism than agnosticism.
                                           -- agnostic
                                         \_ Nice explanation.    -mice

                                         \_ Oh bullshit. Yes, it's true that
                                            one cannot prove the nonexistence
                                            of something. Especially something
                                            that is defined to be "magical".
                                            But you either believe it or not.
                                            Agnosticism says it's unknowable.
                                            But it is as knowable as anything
                                            else. You don't lead your life
                                            based on irrelevant possibilities
                                            for which you have zero evidence.
                                            So for all intents and purposes,
                                            you are atheist. You just cling to
                                            the agnostic label like a spineless
                                            weasel. The absence of evidence is
                                            evidence of absence, prima facie.
                                            Good enough for a court of law.
                                            \_ Agnosticism doesn't say God is
                                               unknowable.  Agnosticism says
                                               there isn't enough information
                                               at the moment.  Maybe one day
                                               that will change.  For someone
                                               who argues against agnosticism
                                               you know very little about it.
                                               Personally, I treat both
                                               possibilities (God/No God)
                                               very seriously.  I am also
                                               surprised you are resorting to
                                               name calling.  I don't
                                               understand what about my beliefs
                                               you find offensive.  I don't
                                               find you offensive, merely
                                                 -- agnostic
                                               \_ most atheists are most likely
                                                  special-case agnostics.
                                                  \_ No they are not.
                                                     Agnostics and atheists
                                                     are fundamentally
                                                     different.  Agnostics
                                                     (correctly) do not jump
                                                     to conclusions.
                                                     Atheists and theists do.
                                            \_ What kind of proof are you
                                               looking for?
                                      \_ the belief/religion of relativism..
                                         a belief that there are no absolutes
                                         (such as relativism) is very
                                         absolute onto itself..
                                \_ I have basically given up trying to talk to
                                   people about this. Whenever I have, in the
                                   past, it invariably had two possible out-
                                   comes. 1) getting angry and cutting off any
                                   discussion or 2) the person ignores all the
                                   specific details of the religion and just
                                   talks about feelings etc. They completely
                                   just accept without question all the details
                                   based on this generic spiritual feeling, and
                                   can't dissociate the two.
               From Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable _/
               Definitions vary. How are you so sure what agnostic means?
               For someone who claims to be agnostic, you don't seem to know
               much about it. Here's a little site that's kind of cogent:
               Go look at the history of the term. I find it irrelevant.
               I am convinced there's no god, although obviously if one came
               along I'd have to change my belief right? But a biblical-style
               god is among the least believable things I can imagine. Alien
               life is more believable, although I have no direct evidence.
               And you are an atheist unless you believe in god.
               \_ Do you believe the existence of a spiritual realm?
               \_ Very well.  If you think atheist = !theist, then agnostics
                  are a subset, although that's not a very meaningful
                  definition.  If you think atheist = !god, then agnostics are
                  not a subset.  I like the latter definition.  My dictionary
                  and my friends agree with me.
                  \_ Fine. But that stuff about being overcommitted is silly.
                     I don't believe in Santa Claus. Do you have an opinion?
                     What's the practical difference anyway? Are you afraid
                     that the hypothetical god would be pissed if you aren't
                     always careful to stipulate to people that you don't know
                     "for sure"?
2003/10/9 [Reference/Religion] UID:10553 Activity:nil
10/9    Egypt's new neoliberalism:
2003/9/28 [Reference/Religion] UID:10356 Activity:nil
9/28    The jews are at it again.  Why can't they just leave the Muslims, Arabs
        and Palestinians alone to do their own thing and provide the
        electricity their people need to advance?
2003/9/10 [Health/Men, Reference/Religion] UID:29527 Activity:very high
9/9     Why isn't penile circumcision on minors illegal? They are being
        subjected to ritualistic cosmetic surgery without any form of
        consent, especially in the case of infants. I mean seriously.
        There is legal paranoia about so many things why not this?
        \_ Because you're a troll
        \_ Kill the Jews!
           \_ I was cut and am not a Jew.
              \_ But I'll bet you know one!  Kill the Jews!
                 \_ Ok I'm convinced. let's start with you.
        \_ Kids are not capable of consent. Parents make their decisions for
           them. That is the way the world works. --dim
           \_ therefore if parents want to mutilate them, it's OK?  Get a clue.
              \_ How about earrings? Should girls have to wait until 18?  --dim
                \_ Parents should not wantonly pierce their kids against
                   the kids' will.  If the kid wants a piercing, more power
                   to them. -tom
                   \_ The point here is that the kid has no power of consent.
                      Whether they want a piercing or a tattoo is not relevant.
                      \_ You don't understand the concept of consent.  The
                         kid can't "consent" to a tattoo withour their
                         guardian's consent--but that doesn't mean the
                         guardian can consent for them.  -tom
                         \_ actually, yes, it does.
                      \_ Do you think parents should be allowed to tattoo and
                         pierce their young children? They may not have legal
                         consent, but they have rights.
                         \_ Yes, they should be allowed to unless the act can
                            be demonstrated to be cruel or unusual. That's
                            what this hinges on. Is circumcision cruel and
                            unusual? One side says it is and the other not.
                            Most people (as with earrings) think it is not.
        \_ umm. they're doing you a favor dude, how many girls wanna
           you know what to a uncircumsized weanie.
        \_ I'm a little ignorant here, but are there health issues for or
           against circumcision? Also, I knew Jews get circumcized, but what
           about Catholics, Mormons, Christians, and Moslems? Buddhists?
                                                     \- you dont know whether
                                              moslems are circumcized? --psb
           \_ It's a very "American" thing to do. In most cases religion
              has nothing to do with it. It's societal.
              \_ Religion (Christianity) has a lot to do with what is
                 considered "American". It is of religious origin.
           \_ Not really. Certainly nothing life endangering. One could also
              say we should chop off kids' fingers because they use them to
              pick up bottles of poison.
           \_ It is easier to keep clean and cancer risk is lower but it isn't
              like you'll die sterile at age 24 if you're not.  It's like
              jogging.  You're better off if you do but if you don't, hey.
           \_ Hindus do not believe in circumcision.
        \_ Circumcision pics:
              \_ But sensitivity is relevant premature ejaculation.
           \_ My mom put me thru all these when I was 11 in Hong Kong.
        \_ It reduces sensitivity, which means that teenage boys might be
           slightly less of horndogs... maybe this will make them better
           in bed, maybe worse...
           \_ Bullshit. Americans are not less horny than Euros for example.
              Sensitivity is irrelevant to horniness.
              \_ But sensitivity is relevant to premature ejaculation.
                 \_ Prove it.
                    \_ You feel better, you cum earlier.  Isn't it?
                       \_ how do you know it's not just "you feel better"?
           \_ More than sensitive enough to cum a few times a day.  --cut guy
        \_ I had a circumcision like 2 years ago due to a medical condition
           where my foreskin started losing its elasticity.  I got my dick
           stuck, and had to go to ER.  After that, the doctor told me I
           need to circumcize.  It wasn't a fun experience.
        \_ My dad had a circumcision when he was 50-something.
2003/8/29-2004/2/14 [Reference/Religion] UID:12248 Activity:very high
2/13    Has anybody ever heard of an "Evidence Bible"?  I saw one on the desk
        of my accountant, and it kinda freaked me out.  Should I be freaked
        \_ From Amazon:
           The Evidence Bible is the New Testament + Psalms & Proverbs in the
           KJV. Throughout the entire Bible there are quotes from every
           revivalist you can think of in addition to some from well known
           scientiest. This Bible has the answer to any question - Athieism,
           evolution, dinosaurs, etc.. Great for skeptics & so awesome for street
           So it sounds like you accountant is an Evangelical Christian.
           evolution, dinosaurs, etc.. Great for skeptics & so awesome for
           street witnessing.  [formatd]
           So it sounds like your accountant is an Evangelical Christian.
           Whether or not that should freak you out depends on whether he
           evangelizes to you, and what kind of things he's accounting for you.
           \_ God told me Brother Oral's ministry needed your money more than
              the government.
              \_ It probably does.
              \_ yermom's oral ministry is pretty cheap though...
           \_ No.  God loves you and will clean up the sin from your
              life as you trust him through continuous prayer and
              Bible reading.  As for the trustworthyness of the Bible,
              I've been digging for 4 years now, and the more I dig,
              the firmer the foundation gets.  Issac Newton was a
              serious Bible scholar who trusted every word. You can also.
2003/8/28 [Reference/Religion] UID:29507 Activity:very high
8/28    "Only one in five Americans approve of the federal court order
        to remove the Ten Commandments monument..."
        Just trying to understand this side of the argument.  Do
        people really think it doesn't violate the Constitution's
        church and state issues, or are they Christians who wouldn't
        mind the endorsement?
        \_ Atheist here: I think it doesn't violate the Constitution at all.
        \_ They're just stupid.
           \_ Yes, anyone who disagree with your viewpoint is just stupid and
              should be killed.
           \_ Yes. I am convinced their opinions would be no different even
              if it was something more overt like a big ol' Jesus-on-crucifix
              \_ I want the version that looks like a hippie, bleeds every
                 hour (with the EZ self-cleaning option), and the removable
                 sword-in-the-side PLUS random vocalizations of His (editted
                 for Conservative POV only) word
                 \_ nice.
                    \_ *buzz* <drip> <drip> Do unto others *zz* as the Lord
                       God would do to you <drip> *zzz* (squirt-squirt-squirt)
        \_ Someone just needs to put a statue of the pope in a courtroom.
           Either we'll get some separation of church and state or this
           country will finally admit to being an Iran-like theocracy.
           \_ In God We Trust
              \_ What we need is to make Unitarians the official state religion.
                   -- ilyas
                 \_ No we don't.      -mice
        \_ Why does this violate the Constitution? Does it violate the
           Constitution that our money says "In God We Trust"? If Michaelangelo
           had painted a Sistine Chapel-like ceiling in that court house would
           people protest? It's art. --dim
                \_ Don't forget Sacramento, San Francisco, the President
                   in sworn in with a Bible, the USSC has Moses with the
                   10 commandments on the building, etc.  - the 'wall' has
                   no historical or judicial basis earlier than the 1950s
                   \_ Neither does "In God We Trust."  If you're so sure about
                      your faith, you won't mind keeping it the hell out of
                      federal buildings.
                      \_ So does that mean that statues of Themis (Greek
                         goddess of Justice) should not be allowed because
                         they are religious in nature? --dim
                      \_ If you feel this way enact policy through the
                         legislature or referendum.
           \_ I think there's a difference between a vague platitude on a coin
              versus Christian trappings in an actual courtroom. Not that I
              personally want the coin thing.
              \_ Judeo-Christian trappings.  The point is that old Roy had
                 the thing placed in a very conspicuous location as if to
                 to say, "What are you gonna do about it?"  This is much
                 more in your face than "In God We Trust."
                 \_ I believe in the Reeses' peanut butter cup theory of state
                    and church. The problem isn't when your religion is in
                    my government, it's when your government is in my religion.
                 \_ You can't pick and choose.  If one is not ok then neither
                    is "In God We Trust" on *every* dollar bill.  The degree
                    of visibility should make no difference and frankly I see
                    cash much more often than I see a big chunk of rock in
                   \_ Blah blah blah.
                    some random southern courthouse.  The money should be
                    changed before the rock if visibility is your standard.
        \_ Perhaps some view the First Amendment from a historical vantage:
           Justice Rehnquist's Dissent in WALLACE V. JAFFREE (1985)
           As an aside, the amendment reads 'Congress shall make no..'-
           the key word being Congress.
           \_ Oh, there he goes again.  Haven't you already been swatted, fly?
                \_ I'd respond to intellectual rebuttal of the points made
                   in the dissent.
                   \_ Hey, I'm into the slaveowner thing too, but I don't
                      constantly bug the motd about it.
                      \_ What?  You're a Southern Democrat?  Huh?
        \_ In another letter, to Rev. Samuel Miller on Jan. 23, 1808 Jefferson
           stated, "I consider the government of the U S. as interdicted
           by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions,
           their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only
           from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the
           establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that
           also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to
           the U.S. Certainly no power to prescribe any religious
           exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline,
           has been delegated to the general government. It must
           then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any
           human authority."
           This was written six years after Jefferson's 'wall of
           separation' letter.
2003/8/21 [Reference/Religion] UID:29417 Activity:high
8/20    Public museums that house religious artifacts are
        \_ url?
        \_ Drat.  There goes the Declaration of Independence.
        \_ hmm. time to load up on ammo -Arnold
        \_ They are taking God away from us!
2003/8/16-17 [Reference/Religion] UID:29374 Activity:kinda low
8/16    Idi Amin, R.I.P.  We'll miss you, buddy!  --U.S. State Department
        \_ god save politicians
           god save our friend the pigs
           god save idi amin,
           and god save ronald bigs!
2003/6/20 [Reference/Religion] UID:28778 Activity:nil
6/19    Related to the God thread below.  When I was in the dorms, I debated
        many times with my roomate on why asians shouldn't worship western
        religions.  Why go around worshiping a white guy (Jesus)?  He
        tried to rationalize it by saying that God is not white and Jesus was
        darked-skinned, etc.  Truth is, nobody knows what Jesus looks like and
        99.9% of all pictures of Jesus shows a white guy with blond hair and
        blue eyes.  Then he tried to backpedal and said he doesn't worship
        Jesus but worships God.  And God is not human.  Then I called
        attention to one of the basic teachings of christianity:  Trinity.
        Jesus is the son, the father, and the holy spirit.  He stopped talking
        to me after that and thinks I'm some sort of wacko.  I have yet to
        hear a good reason why non-whites should worship a God that chooses
        appear as a white guy.  Anyone?
        \_ I'm not a christian, but my understanding is that Jesus is only
           a representation for the ideals of the religion (love, ect).  If
           this is true, then Jesus being white is irrelevant.
        \_ No white man should worship a god that isn't a H0T A2N CH1X.
        \_ You asians have already been assimilated into Western culture...
           so give it up, we've already won.
           \_ oh yeah.. the 3% of hte U.S. population that's Asian is really
              representative of the world.
        \_ In Christian Theology God is beyond the humans and the angels.
           Jesus (the son) however is human (see the third temptation).
           The relationship between God (the father) and Jesus is akin
           to the relationship between Dr. Soong and Data. Dr Soong is
           is father and creator while Data is the son. Different type
           of life, but still related.
           BTW, millions of Asians follow buddhism and worship images of
           the buddha? After all he wasn't Asian, he was Indian and since
           he was a prince most likely Aryan (Caucasian).
2003/6/17 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28747 Activity:nil
6/16    Last question on Israeli/Palestinian issue.  This is a question
        \_ Hah! Haha!  Hahaha!
        for those who are in support of Israel:
        One of the justification for the Israel is that it is a land promised
        by God.  However, based upon my limited knowledge, God has promised
        a land which is a lot a lot bigger than the current Israel even if
        Westbank AND Gaza Strip are included.  My question is 1.  Are
        majority of Israeli desire to claim the rest of the promised land
        eventually?  2.  For those American / American Jews who support of
        Israel, would you support Israel if Israel use this as an excuse
        initiate invasion of, let say Jordan, Syria and other neighbors so
        the promise in the Bible can be fulfilled?
        \_ TROLL!
        \_ I would imagine that a vast majority of Israelis do not have the
           extreme viewpoint of the whole Promised Land justification.
           They just want peace.
        \_ TROLL!
        \_ Cmon now. Like any faith they will interpret or ignore the facts
           to fit their 'word of God'. 1. No, the settler types are few,
           maybe just over 100k, and are viewed as fringe. Israel is a very
           secular country on many levels, don't make the mistake of
           thinking that Israel's "jewishness" is all about religion --
           jewishness is a complex mix of ethnicity, culture, and religion.
           Most Israelis are not religious. 2. Learn English. --aaron
           \_ You are down playing the role of religion on this.  Hate
              to say this, but the way Israeli evicting Palestinians are
              pretty similar to the way Nazi evictings Jews just a decade
              earlier. Their main "justification" for it *IS* that it is
              "THEIR" land promoised by GOD.  Further, if religion is not
              an issue, then, why Israel want Jerusalem so bad?
                                        -- OP
                \_ You know, it's sad enough already that Godwin's Law
                   pops up so often, but it's even more pathetic when people
                   start trolling just for the sake of starting an argument
                   in which they can (yet again, sigh) prove it.  -John
        \_ TROLL!
2003/6/13-14 [Reference/Religion] UID:28725 Activity:very high
6/12    Enough people have seen the Matrix 2 already right?  What do you
        think happened near the end?  How was Neo able to destroy those
        sentinels outside of the matrix?  My pet theory is that nobody is
        outside the matrix.  There is a larger matrix that they're all still
        \_ I haven't seen the movie, but that's just the kind of stupid
           sophmoric shit i'd expect from it. -phuqm
           \_ <Keanu voice> WHOA
        \_ wow that's deep.
           \_ Deja vu!
        \_ your pet theory is everyone else's initial theory. seriously,
           \_ if that's everybody's first reaction, then the real reason must
              be something else.  The writer/directors aren't that lame.
              I bet they want a suprise ending for part III.
           everyone i've talked to, that's the first idea that popped in
           their minds
        \_ Read _Flatland_ by Edwin A. Abbott:
           "My Lord, your own wisdom has taught me to aspire to One even
            more great, more beautiful, and more closely approximate to
            Perfection than yourself. As you yourself, superior to all
            Flatland forms, combine many Circles in One, so doubtless
            \_ Platonic Forms?
        \_ It doesn't even have to be that there's a larger matrix.  The
           machines could've just start modifying itself to make them think
           that they left the matrix but never did.
           \_ Deja vu!
        \_ It's kinda lame that the machines put the humans in a virtual world
           with technology. Why not stick them in cavemen times?
           \_ Longer lasting batteries in a "modern" setting.
            there is One above you who combines many Spheres in One Supreme
            Existence, surpassing even the Solids of Spaceland."
            \_ Shut up ilyas.
               \_ Uh... what?  You motd people really don't know me that
                  well... The last 3 or 4 times someone guessed something
                  was from me .. it wasn't.  -- ilyas
                  \_ What's this defamatory, "you motd people" thing?  Who
                     the hell do you think you are to lump us all together
                     under some ugly label?
                     \_ smart
        \_ Yeah like wow!  No one else could possibly have thought of that!
           I'm sure there aren't hundreds of fanboi sites out there saying
           the same thing!  YOU ROCK!  LINUX ROCKS!  BIKING ROCKS!  ED ROCKS!
           ROCKS ROCK!
           \_ do i detect a hint of sarcasm?
           \_ Good old rock. Nothing beats that.
              \_ Paper beats rock.
                 \_ Do you have absolutely zero sense of humor? I thought so.
                    \_ A lot more than you do, apparently.
                       \_ more isn't necessarily better.  -phuqm
        \_ Don't you get it yet? Neo == Jesus + Superman. He can do whatever
           he wants whenever he wants where ever he wants.
           \_ Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the bible tells me so.
           \_ oh yeah?  if he's so super powerful in the matrix then why can't
              he just turn it off, or zap all the fbi-clone guardians guys
              instead of running away, or teleport instead of flying around?
                \_ Just like Jesus could have kicked the ass of
                   romans right? Strange and mysterious are the
                   ways of the lord.
                   \_ Just like God was nowhere to be found when Hitler was
                      exterminating the Jews eh?  The Lord works in mysterious
                      ways indeed.
                      \_ What do you mean God was nowhere to be found?  He
                         sent the mighty American war machine to crush
                         \_ He was just testing their faith, right?
                            \_ God can't intervene in everything.  Otherwise
                               we are but puppets.  When God gave us free
                               will, it includes the free will to commit
                                  \_ speak for your own penis.
                                  \_ But I'm thinking of you.
                               \_ This is why you guys should stop touching
                                  \_ But when I do, I'm thinking of you, baby.
        \_ I love how most of the replies have nothing to do with the Matrix :)
        \_ Matrix == Monsters, Inc.
2003/6/9 [Reference/Religion] UID:28674 Activity:high
6/8     A friend attends a church called the Church of Christ, Scientist.
        Is there a difference between this and Scientology?  If so, where
        does the Church of Christ, Scientist fit in the rest of the
        Catholic/Protestant/Unitarian/I-Agree-With-Paul hierarchy?
        Serious question.  Thanks.      -- unreligious guy
        \_ Christian Science is very different than Scientology.
           Scientology has nothing to do with Christianity, Christian Science
           is just one of the more different offshoots of Christianity.
           They're the ones that believe, despite the name, that modern
           medical science is bad, and prayer is the only valid treatment
           for illness.
           \_ two different founders.  L. Ron Hubbard for Scientology,
              Mary Baker for Church of Christ Scientist.
        \_ I've always wondered if there was any association between
           Christian Science and the Christian Science Monitor.   -!op
                \_ mary baker eddy founded Church Of Christ, Scientist
                   and the newspaper the Christian Science Monitor,
                   scientology and members of the
                   church of christ scientist (christian scientists)
                   Have absolutely nothing to do with each other. - danh
2003/6/7-8 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28666 Activity:nil
        Dubya is deporting 13,000 Muslims who came forward to sign up for his
        registration list who have no ties to terrorism.
        \_ Yes but hes giving them each a free pig as consolation.
           This story was written by Blair no doubt.
           \_ Racist!
2003/4/3 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27964 Activity:high
        Don't blame Jews for this war
        \_ I blame the Jews in West Palm Beach who voted for Pat Buchanan.
        \_ blame canada
                \_ Shut your fucking face, unclefucker
        \_ So I keep hearing how the Jews own the media and the banks and
           the government.  Someone forgot to tell me where to sign up to
           get my share!  --jewboy
2003/4/2 [Reference/Religion] UID:27954 Activity:very high
4/2     Why do people believe in Feng Shui?
        \_ Why do people believe in any religion/superstition?
           A: Because people are morons.
             \_ That's what I thought.  But there must be some
                sodan out there who believes in Feng Shui who can
                try to explain why.  -op
                \_ Why they believe in it?  Why does anyone believe in any
                   religion?  In most cases because they were raised on it.
           \_ feng shui, as an interior design principle, isn't superstition.
              As a religion, it's silly.
        \_ Because it is effective and correct for all types of design.
        \_ Because it's an effective tool for all types of design.
        \_ Any set of principals can be turned into a religion if you
           adhere to them unthinkingly. Or, they can become advice to
           consider if you take them as simply observations from someone
           who has thought about a problem.
           \_ How can you really respect Feng Shui as a religion when it
              doesn't have any cool action flicks about it? One good Hong
              Kong movie like "Ikea Feng Shui Master: Meatballs and Bjorket
              Chairs of Flaming Death" could push it over the top.
              \_ Ikea the Scandinavian furniture store?
                 \_ if you have to ask...
        \_ Because when they tried it, it brought them good fortune.
2003/3/27 [Reference/Religion] UID:27875 Activity:nil
3/26    "Escaping Submission"
2003/3/26 [Reference/Religion] UID:27865 Activity:nil
3/26    Hypothetical question:  how many of you would convert to Islam if
        there's a giant sandstorm that buries ALL the advancing US and British
        troops in Iraq?
        \_ never. if they beat the American fighters, i'll fight to the death
           here, or move to a neutral country.
           \_ I don't think you got my point.  A giant sandstorm would be
              a natural disaster.  Allah intervenining the muslim world would
              \_ ok, or you could interpret that as the christian god taking
                 revenge on people who call themselves christians and
                 commit evil acts.
        \_ Soda conservatives would be jumping on right now if they could
           get out of paying taxes.
        \_ Too late. I'm atheist. Bring on the hate...
        \_ A sandstorm?  Like we can't afford shovels for the army?  WTF?
           \_ weather: see storms.  no precipitation.
              I just hope our troops know to plant a thumper when they
              cross open desert.
2003/3/26 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27848 Activity:nil
3/25    These are the true inheritors of the Babylonian Empire and
        they are responsible for all of the technological advances
        made in the Muslim world since 700 AD.
        Its interesting because some consider Hammurabi's Code of Laws a
        progenitor of Magna Carta.
        Persecuted for centuries, Iraq's Assyrian
        Christians once again wary of their future
2003/3/25-26 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27842 Activity:high
3/25    Want to learn the truth, the *real* truth about what's going on in
        the war, Greater Palestine, and the Muslim world in general? and
        They're a bit slow but that's only because so many people have found
        an alternative to the lies you're being fed.
        \_ You know, I was always taught to suspect anyone claming to peddle
           "the *real* truth" about anything.  -John
           \_ You know that this is actually posted by an anti-arab trying
              to show how stupid arabs can be.
                \_ Hm I thought it was being posted by someone trying to
                   show how stupid arabnews and al jazeera are.  -John
                   \_ I posted this comment before and it was instantly
                      deleted.  "Al Jazeera" is Arabic for "Fox News."
                      \_ Because your comment was opinated drivel and based on
                         nothing.  If you backed it up with some facts you
        \_ What's the need?  The Muslim world has been at a standstill
           for 700 years.  Nothing has changed.  Pedophile camel jockeys
           on flying carpets.  It's obvious the world would be better off had
           the Muslim never existed.
        \_ Whas da need?  Da Muslim wold has been at a standstill
           fo seven hunned years, sheeit.  Nuffin' has changed.
           Pedophile camel jockeys on dem flying doodads.  Fosheezy,
           da world would be better off had the Muslim never been up
           in the club, damn straight.
           \_ Spoken like a true Papist.
                \_ Then prove me wrong with some facts, pagan.
                         would stay on the motd longer.
                \_ It is what it is.  Read the URLs and come to your own
                   conclusions.  It doesn't matter what the OP intended.
                \_ [racist content free troll deleted]
                   Look if you cannot figure out a way to make your
                   point without using racial epithets, you are going
                   to keep getting it deleted.
                        \_ You don't seem to be in such a hurry to delete
                           anti-semitic rhetoric.
                           \_ I'm the one who deleted the racist troll.  I'm
                              pro-Israeli and a Jew.  I deleted it because it
                              was a racist troll and added nothing to this
                           \_ Post all the rhetoric you want, just avoid
                              the camelf*cker routine, all right?
                           \_ This isn't much of an excuse, but whoever
                              that anti-semitic asshole is has only done
                              the "blame the jews for everything" routine,
                              while the anti-moslem asshole is openly
                              advocating their extermination.  I delete
                              both when I see them, but more promptly if it's
                              hateful, rather than just stupid.
        \_ Don't know about, but Al Jazeera is considered quite
           independent from the Arab governments.
           \_ Ah, the passive voice.  "is considered".  By whom exactly is it
              considered anything?  I consider Al Jazeera garbage 'news' and
              propaganda.  Next time why don't you say "... but Al Jazaeera is
              considered garbage 'news' and propaganda" in the future instead?
2003/3/11 [Reference/Religion] UID:27658 Activity:nil
3/11    It's all about the Jews, again.  The dirty big nosed evil war
        mongering genocidal hate filled Jews.  Kill whitey, then the Jews!
        \_ See what happens in America if you are willing to speak openly
           about these things?
2003/2/26 [Science/GlobalWarming, Reference/Religion] UID:27546 Activity:nil
2/26    What have the Muslim countries contributed to the world in the past
        500 years?  In art, science, music or any other field.  I can't
        think of anything.  So what exactly are these extremists embracing?
        \_ Religion?  Getting the west to butt out of their region and stop
           telling them how to run their countries?
        \_ the exact same thing christian or jewish countries have
           contributed (either a lot, or nothing, depending on what your
        \_ We landed a man on the moon in the year 1755.  The west had
           to wait 200 years to do the same.  Of course, our glorious
           achievement was brutally suppressed by the white man's press
           and was therefore never fully recognized.
2003/2/10-11 [Reference/Religion] UID:27363 Activity:high
2/10    Any familiar with the Bible here?  Do all the quotes in really exist in the Bible?  Or are they
        just pranks?
        \_ Try reading the damn thing yourself.  Yes, they are in the Bible.
        \_ They are there, but interpretations differ for some of them.
        \_ The stories he talks about ARE actually in the bible, however,
           the interpretations he writes are mostly pretty off.  Mainly
           because he has no understanding of anchient hebrew culture, and
           doesn't actually know what's going on.
           \_ What other interpretations can there be for someone making her
              father drink wine and laying with her father and preserving his
              seed and then baring a child by her father?
              \_ Notice I said "mostly."  That one is acurate, but notice
                 he doesn't do much interpretation at all on that one.
                 I was more refering to "Abraham and Hagar" and "David and
        \_ Ah, I remember my first bible sex story.  It was given to me by
           Father Michael, and came wrapped in brown paper.
2003/2/2 [Reference/Religion] UID:27283 Activity:nil
2/2     Why are self-professed religious people so prone to getting angry and
        sad? Aren't all their worries taken care of by the man upstairs?
        \_ you've got the causality backwards.  they got into religion
           in the first place because of their emotional problems.
        \_ Big man upstairs wants them angry and sad, obviously.
2003/1/28 [Reference/Religion] UID:27223 Activity:very high
1/28    if you are discriminating against races, you are being racist ...
        what are you, if you are discriminating against religions ...
        sectist come to my mind,
        but i'm pretty sure there is a better word for it ...
        \_ zealous?  evangelical?
        \_ intelligent
            \_ No, you're closed minded and stupid.  I'm the ultimate atheist.
               I have never believed in any sort of divinity, magic, other
               planes, or anything else of that nature.  I have absolutely
               no problems with people who do so long as they don't force it
               on others and it keeps them happy.  I'm opposed to self
               destructive religions which push suicide, mutilation, mind
               control through traditional brain washing methods (captivity,
               drugs, etc).  Let them be.  Don't make atheism _your_ religion.
        \_ secular humanist although that pertains to nondiety "religion"
           against traditional religions
        \_ rationalist
           \_ these are not parallel to "racist"--"racist" implies favoring
              one race over another, or over all others.  I'd say the word
              you're looking for is "religious".  -tom
              \_ nice.
                 \_ Nice and stupid.  Really, it's pathetic.  Someone can be
                    religious, and yet not preferring one religion to another.
                    \_ you're stupid. really, you're pathetic. give an example
                       of being religious and not preferring one religion.
                       then try to convince me that's at all typical.
                        \_ Dalai Lama, and almost all buddhists.
                           \_ do you think buddhists would describe themselves
                              as "religious"?
                           \_ you're wrong. buddhists prefer buddhism. i fully
                              understand hindusim/buddhism and "different
                              paths" etc. but the fact of the matter is, that
                              judaism and christianity are explicitly not
                              compatible with buddhism, even if buddhism is
                              compatible with them.
              \_ To be discriminating is not always a bad thing:
                 1 a : to make a distinction <discriminate among
                 historical sources> b: to use good judgment
        \_ atheist, while having a core meaning of "not believing
           in god(s)/the supernatural", has a further connation of one who
           discriminates against those who believe in god(s)
           argues with those who believe in god(s).  Another connation
           is one who thinks godlovers are stupid/misguided.
2003/1/21-22 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27180 Activity:very high
1/21    Second try: what church building/organization do you church-goers
        attend for worship? For example, "First Pres Church of Berkeley"
        or "First Congregational". No, I didn't nuke the original post;
        someone else did.
        \_ Thai Buddhist Temple - services are from 10 am to around 2pm.
           Bring about $6 for a good session.
        \_ (in oakland)
           \_ Do you know an obnoxious obese guy named Jeffrey there?
              \_ No, I know a skinny girl named Colleen there.
        \_ some may be afraid to say because they will be attacked here.
           \_ Good point. I don't mind anon answers.
           \_ Speaking of which, anti-Christianity seems to be common here.
              But do you notice anti-Jewish, anti-Islam, anti-something
              else sentiment in the motd?
              \_ No because that won't be politically correct.
              \_ Post a link about Israel and the Jew haters crawl out from
                 under their rocks.
                 \_ A lot less people would be anti-Christian if
                    Christians didn't proselytize so damn much.
                 \_ Israel is a country. Judaism is a religion. Idiot.
              \_ Oh, I'd say there's almost as much anti-Semitism here.
                 But then it's stylish to be an anti-Semite.
        \_ The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: .
           \_ Not Christianity.
        \_ Why are you asking? Are you looking for a church?
           \_ Just interested. I go to FPCB.
        \_ FPCB: .
        \_ Raelian Church (for the orgies): .
        \_ Jesus has only one church.  hint: it wasn't built by men
           \_ What's the answer?
              \_ It was built by women.  Big Breasted Norse Teutonic women
                 who fell deer with their bow hunting skills, clad only in
                 a fur pelt and a belt for their daggers.
                 \_ Shit no!  You're a complete fucking idiot!  *EVERYONE*
                    knows they wore chainmail bikinis!  DUH!
                    \_ What, you _like_ scar tissue?
                    \_ Maybe in YOUR Blockbuster-censored, Brittany Spears
                       pop G-rated world they did..
2002/12/25-26 [Reference/Religion] UID:26907 Activity:high
12/25   merry hannukah!
        \_ jesus killer.
          \_ Making this comment implies you to be a Christian.  Take heed of
             Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
             and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
          \_ Weak troll.
2002/12/18-19 [Reference/Religion] UID:26850 Activity:very high
12/18   Watch "Muhammmad: Legacy of a prophet" on PBS tonight at 9pm.
        \_ Why?
           \_ So you can taunt Muslims and know what you're talking about.
              It works well with Jews and various cults of Christ too.
              \_ So if I watch this cartoon I'll be able to taunt Christian
                 cultists?  You mean like the Catholics?  What exactly do you
                 consider a 'cult' vs a 'real' religion?  -!christian
                 \_ They are all cults in the end. Some are just bigger.
        \_ Learn about how Islam is a friendly and peaceful religion and the
           West is evil and ignorant and must be destroyed.
2002/11/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Reference/Religion, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:26566 Activity:very high
11/15   how do Freepers like the Left Behind books?
        \_ What a "Left Behind" book?  --!freeper
           \_ Bunch of religious-oriented action/adventure type novels
              apparently written around the apocalypse.  Lots of hype in
              the press around it recently.  I read some excerpts, and the
              writing quality is pretty abominable (as opposed to most other
              action/adventure type novels).  I think it's mainly a case of
              targeting content at a certain demographic group, i.e. giving
              the plebes what they want to read.  -John
              \_ I'm a Christian. I'm one of the ones who gives money to
                 the Church (from an earlier topic). I do not like the
                 "Left Behind" books: that kind of apocalypse story
                 doesn't interest me and I agree the writing quality
                 stinks. The movie version's got Kirk Cameron, so it's
                 gotta be good, right?
        \_ conservative != christian necessarily.
           It's a political ruse used by the left.
           \_ bullshit.  The reason the two have been lumped together is
              that the vocal, annoying christian minority, the kind that
              loves the left behind books, is overwhemlingly republican.
              Add to that the fact that the current repblican leadership is
              practically wallowing in it's fundieism and it becomes hard NOT
              to link the two. -aspo
              \_ A implies B does not mean B implies A.  Did you graduate?
                 From Cal?  I already knew they'd let any idiot in but do they
                 let any idiot graduate?
              \_ Well said.
                 \_ Not really.  Not even if you're grinding the same axe.
              \_ Neither Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Howard Stern, Dr. Laura,
                 nor Larry Elder, are Bible believing Christians.  Is banning
                 partial birth abortion so evil?
                 \_ Look, I'm not saying if you are conservative you have to
                    be a christian, raving or otherwise.  I'm saying the reason
                    many people equate the two are because of the actions of
                    a very vocal and strong compenent of the republican party,
                    the party most people associate with conservative values.
                    Don't blame "the left" for this misconception, blame those
                    that have wrapped fundementalist christian agendas into
                    the republican party line.  -aspo
                    \_ "most associated" by who exactly?  the leftist agenda
                       driven pseudo mainstream press?  yeah thought so. Just
                       how much acid, pot, and whatever does it take to get to
                       where you are now?  just curious.
                \_ the term partial birth abortion is pretty inventive,
                   go read . yes i realize
                   i have no hope of influencing the poster of the
                   above. - danh
                   \_ if partial birth abortions are so rare and so necessary
                      than would you object to a ban on PBAs except in cases
                      where it is medically necessary?
           \_ so you're just the secularly righteous type?
              \_ True atheist (not the nutty religion hating type) and true
                 conservative here.  We exist.  Thanks for noticing.  -!op
2002/9/9 [Reference/Religion] UID:25819 Activity:nil
9/7     Re: truth of bible (see below)
        Is it true that Mary begot Christ in a virgin birth?  Does this
        qualify as human cloning?  My Israeli friends tell me that christ is
        the bastard product of Mary with one or one of many Roman soldiers.
        Should I believe them or the bible?
        \_ Nautius Maximus, his name was...promised her the known world.
        \_ ObYerMom:  It's true that a bunch of soldiers raped yermom,
           oh wait, no, she did it for money.
        \_ troll?  I don't understand why people are biting
           on the "how true are the stories in the Bible" troll.
           \_ duh, obviously its a troll.  that doesnt mean it isnt fun.
        \_ Um, current technology allows virgin birth without cloning (hint:
           in vitro fertilization).
2002/9/9 [Reference/Religion] UID:25818 Activity:high
9/7     Is it true that Nietzsche killed God?
        \_ I don't think he did.  He did do yermom, though.
           \_ The real question is: did yermom do God?
              \_ My god!  yermom is the virgin mary!  that makes *you* christ!
        \_ No, it's:
           God is dead.  --Nietzsche
           Nietzshe is dead.  --God
           \_ Leave it to the motd to supply drunken dormie wisdom.
2002/9/9 [Reference/Religion] UID:25813 Activity:high
9/8     Will someone please wipe the motd and all the religious overtones?
        \_ no. -God
           \_ God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no
              place in organized religion!
2002/9/8-9 [Reference/Religion] UID:25810 Activity:high
9/7     how true are the stories in the bible?
        \_ You've got to be kidding asking this on the motd, right?
        \_ xenu will get you if you believe in the bible
        \_ none of them are true
           \_ There's likely some truth to them in the general sense.  Example:
              it is 99.9999% likely that a 30 year old man who was the son of
              a Jewish carpenter was a prophet and had followers and got his
              ass crucified.  Did he drive the demons from a man into a herd of
              animals and then run them off a cliff?  Unlikely.
        \_ look at it this way, Islam and Judaism also recognize Abraham,
           Joseph, etc etc. These religions didn't branch off till later
           but the fact that 3 religions have the same records in the
           beginning really says something.
           \_ Yeah.  Two of them forked from the third.  By this
              reasoning rumors that are repeated enough become true, regardless
              of the truth of the original source.  By the way,
              people are saying that giving me money prolongs your life.
              \_ you've got to have the hair.  it's all about the hair.
                 just ask dogbert.  post a jpg of your hair in /csua/tmp/
                 and mabye you'll get rich.
                 \_ I've got great hair.  You must have faith and send money to
                    my paypal account to be saved.
           \_ If the 3 religions have the same records independently, then
              it is significant.  But how can you be certain there was
              never any interaction among the people of these religions?
              \_ Uh, there's no doubt Islam and Christianity were direct
                 offshoots of Judaism in that sense.  World Religions 1A.
                 \_ I know that.  So that invalidates the previous
                    poster's statement that "the fact that 3 religions
                    have the same records in the beginning really says
                    \_ I was agreeing with you.
        \_ A bit OT, but check out The Sins Of Jesus; it's by some
           Berkeley physics prof.  As a novel it's rather poor, but it
           suggests some interesting theories-- like why did Moses turn a
           staff into a snake instead of performing some more logical
           miracle?  (A: because it was a trick that was performed
           commonly in Egyptian courts at the time).  He also explains
           the parting of the Red Sea like this: if a bunch of slaves
           escape, they'll assume the pharoah will chase them, but the
           pharoah can just assume they'll die in the desert.  The
           Israelites see a mirage of water closing behind them and think
           "Our creator has saved us!" when in fact there was no chasing
           army at all.
           \_ I had Muller for physics, I missed a lot of the lectures but
              I remember the one when he said some student of his gave him
              death threats because of that book.
           \_ I had Muller for physics too.  Great lecturer.  Pretty good
              researcher.  But his book is nuts.  It flat out contradicts the
              Gospel accounts in several places.  Basically, it's a solution
              looking for a problem.
        \_ definition: miracle
             2. Specifically: An event or effect contrary to the
             established constitution and course of things, or a
             deviation from the known laws of nature; a supernatural
             event, or one transcending the ordinary laws by which the
             universe is governed.
             \_ 4. The occurrence of a CSUA male getting laid (not by
2002/6/27 [Reference/Religion] UID:25225 Activity:high
6/27    If the media did their job and actually included a history of the
        Pledge of Allegiance with their reports on the decision, the uproar
        would be a blip from Gary Bauer or Pat Robertson. --scotsman
        \_ If they ever did their job, if they ever could have done their job.
        ||| THE 'UNDER GOD' PHRASE was inserted in the Pledge of Allegiance
because of a McCarthy-era campaign by a right-wing Catholic group, the
Knights of Columbus. The KOC is now deeply involved in anti-abortion
campaigning by the Catholic Church and was once an important supporter
of the notorious Legion of Decency, which censored American films and
was the source of the phrase "banned in Boston." So not only are the
words "under God" clearly religious, they have their origins in the
theocratic maneuverings of one particular religion. Ironically, until
recently the Catholic Church did not consider Christian fundamentalists
covered by the very phrase they today so loudly champion. The theology
of salvation by faith alone was anathematized by Rome.
2002/6/27 [Reference/Religion] UID:25220 Activity:very high
6/27    The phrase "under God" in the pledge was an artifact of McCarthy era
        paranoia over the "atheist Communists."  Removing it, finally, takes
        it back to the author's initial intent.  The pledge had been around
        for 62 years, through two World Wars, before it was changed.  The
        uproar surrounding this decision is utterly ludicrous. --scotsman
        \_ oh is it? then be sure to remove any G-d related words from
           our currency and courthouses.
           \_ Er..  Yes.  It is.  And yes, they should.  Read a little history.
              Read the constitution.  Oh, and sign your name.  --scotsman
           \_ Why the hell not. The time is ripe for that, too.
        \_ As if the communists of the 50s really weren't out to destroy this
                   country.  Read some history.
           \_  Are you defending McCarthyism?  I suppose you're going to
                say the Holocaust didn't happen either.
           \_ And believing in God helps you with this problem... how?
        \_ The suit will be tossed out. All you god-fearin' folks will be
           safe from the evils of atheism. This is really a big non-story.
           The guy who brought the suit should teach his daughter to do what
           the creationist folks do. Walk out until they are done.
2002/6/27 [Reference/Religion] UID:25216 Activity:very high
6/27    Can a decision by the Supreme Court be overruled or appealed, in
        any way?
        \_ no.  the jedi do their bidding, and they provide order in
           the galaxy.
        \_ Congress can override via legistation. Don't they teach government
           in HS anymore?
           \_ uh, no, congress can override via constitutional amendment only.
              don't they teach government in HS anymore?  -tom
              \_ In reality the supreme court would say a law is uncon. in
                 some very specific way for some very speicific reason and
                 thus further legislation, crafted around that point, can yield
                 *not* the SC (thank god).
                 the same originally intended results without running afoul of
                   and the god ban doesn't take affect for several
                 the earlier SC ruling.  That being said, the 9th circuit is
                 *not* the SC (thank g-d).
                 \_ are you allowed to say "god" on the motd?
                    \_ god has no place within these walls, just like facts
                \_ 9th circuit only affects the 9 most western states,
                   and the g-d ban doesn't take affect for several
                       god god god god god god god god god god god god! hah!
                   months, giving the government a chance to appeal,
                   and if necessary appeal to the supreme court.
                 \_ are you allowed to say "g-d" on the motd?
                    \_ g-d has no place within these walls, just like facts
                       have no place in organized religion!
                    \_ I'm allowed to say whatever tom says I'm allowed to say.
                       g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d g-d! hah!
              \_ Back where I come from consitutional ammendments are
                 viewed as legistation.
2002/6/16 [Reference/Religion] UID:25112 Activity:nil
6/16    Crusade Propaganda
2002/5/28 [Reference/Religion] UID:24961 Activity:nil
5/28    Jews launch their own spy satellite.  No one is safe now.
        \_ Sign your posts so that we know whom to laugh at. -alexf
        \_ yeah, as if it's as good as Lockheed's Kh-12 builtin Sunnyvale for
           the US
        \_ you are forgetting that 1/6th of Israelis are Muslim or Christian,
           pay taxes, vote, and have representation in parliment. This comment
           is about the same as saying 'Christians wage war...' etc with the US
           in Afganistan or elswhere.
        \_ neither the US or afghanistan were founded on the premise of a
           state for those of a certain religion.  Israel was founded on such
           a premise.
           \_ The US wasn't founded on the premises of native Indian nations
              of certain religion(s)?
2002/5/2-3 [Reference/Religion] UID:24684 Activity:very high
5/2     Don't forget to pray:
        \_ I like the stuff about "In the year of our Lord." I like that
           inclusive part of Our Christian Nation. I think I'll burn a
           cross today.
           \_ i'll just pray for the democrats to come up with a real
              candidate for 2004 so we can get this neandrathal motherfucker
                                                    \_ It's telling that you
                                                       can't spell this, but
                                                       can spell motherfucker.
              out of office.
              \_ How about a candidate (anyone, dem or rep) that will stand
                 up and say NO to foreign aid.  FUCK the foreign aid to
                 Israel and Egypt.  FUCK THEM ALL!  They want to kill
                 themselves, go ahead.  the US doesn't owe them jack shit.
                 \_ Ah, to be blissfully ignorant of international
                 \_ Just be prepared for the occasional 767 flying into a
                    densely occupied and important skyscraper.
              \_ Sorry, I'm still burning a cross. Maybe a flag too. I'm
                 out to offend people right now.
                        \_  The teaching of Christ and the Bible are evil,
                            what a HORRIBLE foundation for modern
                            society.  A much better mantra: do what feels
                            good and assume no personal responsibility.
                            \_ Yeah..  it's too bad christians, to a person,
                               continuously miss the point of the teachings
                               of christ, making hedonism seem a valid
                                \_ Exactly, thats why you should let other
                                   dictate how you think and act, especially
                                   the press, Europe, and the U.N.
                                   \_ Wow.  You completely missed _my_ point
                                      as well.
                                      \_ If someone doesn't "get" your point
                                         you must consider that maybe it's
                                         your fault for lacking clarity and not
                                         entirely the reader's fault.  Your
                                         followup sure didn't clarify anything.
                                         \_ Not that this needs to be stated,
                                            but... you're an idiot.
                 \_ if you really
                    are serious about offending people
        \_ What happened to separation of church and state?
           \_ Nothing in particular.  They still have an opening prayer in
              Congress.  What's up with all you stupid ignorant fucks who
              think this country has always had some magical line between
              religion and government thicked than your skulls?  It's a myth,
              a fantasy, a delusion created by liars, the ignorant and the
              psychotic.  You don't even know what the principle of separation
              is about.  It has zippo to do with Bush talking about God.
              \_ It's in the 1st Amendment.  Nat'l Prayer is establishing
                 \_ Oh nonsense.  The President talking about God in some
                    random speech is not the instituting of National Prayer or
                    a National Religion.  Take it to alt.conspiracy.  And oh
                    yeah, here's the FULL TEXT of the 1st amendment:
                    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
                    religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
                    abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
                    right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
                    the government for a redress of grievances."  Ignorant
                    fucking hippies....
              \_ there has been a slow erosion since WWII.  The "under god"
                 portion of the Pledge of Allegiance is new too (1954).
                    \_ So is "In God We Trust". The original motto was
                       "E Pluribus Unum", but that was changed in the 50s.
                 \_ Slow erosion of what?  You're nuts.  Here's a quote from
                    the God Damned Declaration of Indepence.  It's the very
                    first line, btw: "When in the Course of human events, it
                    becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political
                    bands which have connected them with another, and to
                    assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and
                    equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's
                    God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of
                    mankind requires that they should declare the causes which
                    impel them to the separation."  Hey did you catch how those
                    old dead white dudes snuck in that evil stuff about G-d???
                    Really scary stuff!  Wowzerz!  Who knew?  And oh my G-D!!!
                    There's another mention of the Creator(!!!) in the very
                    next line!!!  I need a new country and I need it now!
                    \_ hey moron, the Decleration of Independence has NOTHING
                       to do with our government.  Nada.
                       \_ Yeah it was only written by most of the same folks
                          (dead rich white wasp men) who wrote the constitution
                          and bill of rights.  Yeah, nothing, uh huh.
                                \_ The Declaration of Independence has no i
             other people shove their religion down my throat.
                                   laws in it.  The government is made of
                                   laws.  Think of the DoI as sort of a
                                   "mission statement."  And take a intro
                                   to law class, please.  You rube.
                    \_ The founding fathers concept of "Nature's God" was
                       completely different from the post WWII Christian
                       God that has steadily been working its way into our
                       government. The founders were also very keen on keeping
                       the Christian God out of our gov (there isn't a single
                       mention of god in the constitution) and they would have
                       not have been happy with the current state of events.
                        \_ You could not be more incorrect.  On what *facts*
                           do you base this assertion, or is it your
                           'opinion'.  Everything you wanted to know
                           about the intent of the original founders
                           is in the Federalist Papers and other
                           writings.  You can try to
                           twist history to your liberal secular
                           agenda on the MOTD, but their own statements
                           reveal you to be a farce.  All you have
                           to do is READ the First Amendment.  But's lets
                           be honest, activist judges have vastly
                           accelerated the trashing of the Constitution
                           since FDR, so its a moot point anyways.
                              \_ Have you read the constitution? Not one
                                 mention of god. Not even in the oath of
                                 office. The only mention of religion is
             other people shoving their religion down my throat.
                                 that no religious test would be required
                                 for someone taking public office.
                                 If you read the arguments put forth by
                                 the opponents of the constitution, you
                                 will find that chief among them was that
                                 the framers had abandoned "christianity"
                                 and had written the constitution so that
                                 anyone could hold public office. The
                                 constitution was written in a secular
                                 fashion for many reasons, some of which
                                 had to do with the deist believes of the
                                 framers. I'm sure you want some links so
                                 here you are:
                              \_ please please PLEASE learn something about
                                 Colonial and English history.  The whole
                                 point of seperating church and state, and
                                 distancing the christian god from the govern-
                                 ment, is that in England, the King was the
                                 head of the church.  Look at the publishing
                                 date of the Federalist Papers.  There are
                                 "facts" that back this up.
                           \_ http://
                                \_ These links have ZERO to do with the
                                   intention of the founding fathers "The
                                   U.S. National Mottos" -  what
                                   is your point?  Either way socialist
                                   secular sympathisers have effectively
                                   won.  However, when you are finally
                                   able to get rid of the guns, and facism,
                                   or shall we call victory of the
                                   proletariat, finally comes to the free
                                   world, you or your children have no
                                   right to complain.  Religious
                                   fanatisism does not exist in the west, all
                                   totalirian regimes have been strictly
                                   atheist and secular.
                                   \_ Wow.  Not to confuse this argument with
                                      facts, but... you're an idiot.
                                      \_ Why do people bother posting drivel
                                         like this?  You're really not dragging
                                         the poster down at all.  Actually when
                                         I see a long post written in decent
                                         English followed by a quickie smear,
                                         it only adds to the belief that they
                                         may be right since you can't come up
                                         anything better.
                                         \_ I agree. When someone as kooky
                                            as our religion loving nutcase
                                            posts a drooling rant, it is
                                            better to let it stand on its
                                            own "merits." You can't argue
                                            with someone whose belief is
                                            based on faith, not reason.
                                            \_ A bit more subtle but still just
                                               a personal attack.  Nice try.
                                               How about you take a shot at
                                               responding to his last point
                                               about religious extremism in the
                                               West vs. other parts of the
                                               world.  Then maybe you won't
                                               look so intellectually weak.
                                               \_ I have better things to do
                                                  than try and teach you
                                                  history. Look up Reformation
                                                  and Counter-Reformation in
                                                  any good reference to start.
                                               \_ Not to mention the timothy
                                                  mcveighs and abortion bombers
                                                  and KKK members of the world.
                                                  Get a fucking clue.
                                   \_ Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
                                      \_ I did.  Nothing new about persecution
                                         of religious minorities even then.
        \_ Nice to see them working on pragmatic solutions.
        \_ Like it or not, the civilization you live in today
           is the product of 2000 years of Christianity.  Exactly
           what is so offensive about spirituality?
           \_ I have nothing against spirituality.  I have everything against
              other people shoving their religion down my throat. [formatd]
                \_ What other people would that be?
                   \_ The president of the United States.
                      \_ And he's forcing you to commit Christian acts of
                         kindness how exactly?  I don't recall hearing news of
                         the "Twice A Year Mandatory Christianity" bill getting
                         a lot of support in Congress.  You sound like one of
                         those whining atheism-as-religion fanatics that make
                         us real atheist look like hypocritical crackpots.  You
                         do real atheists a disservice with your noise.
                         \_ By virtue of holding a powerful position, the
                            urging of prayer by an elected leader can make
                            those uncomfortable with prayer feel uncomfortable
                            in their civic position.  This is the drive behind
                            the separation of church and state, and the quaker
                            movement in general.  Oh, also: atheism, while not
                            a religion, is, by naature, a religious choice.
                            The general intolorance to that choice is what the
                            previous poster is concerned with.
2002/5/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Religion] UID:24669 Activity:high
5/1     Jews try to burn Bethlehem Church, place of Jesus's birth, Waco
        \_ sounds like a terrorist bomb accidentalyly went off inside the church
        by one of the terrorist hiding in it.
        \_ sounds like a terrorist bomb accidentalyly went off inside the
           church by one of the terrorist hiding in it.
        \_ Terrorists hold holy site hostage for over a month.  The world
           doesn't seem to care.  Christians wonder how world would react if
           Jews occupied the Al-Aqsa mosque.
           \_ It's only a mosque. We've blown those up before.
        \_ the jews should get their temple back, blow up that sacriligeous
           mosque on top of the jewish temple.
           \_ Ah, another sign that the "Rapture(tm)" is nearing. The Jews
              controlling Jerusalem. That's why the conservative Christians
              are supporting Israel.
                \_ Except for a very minority of Christian kooks, that's
                   mostly the imagination of the Jewish media.
2002/4/29 [Reference/Religion, Recreation/Humor] UID:24637 Activity:nil
4/29    This would be almost funny if it wasn't so fucked up.  Catholic
        Cardinal blames 6 year old boy for being molested.  Just fucking
        \_ The _really_ sad thing...  The boy probably blames himself, too.
        \_ Why is this surprising Boston is among the most liberal cities
           in the US.  Reap what you sow.
2002/3/17-18 [Reference/Religion] UID:24142 Activity:insanely high
3/17  Truly, a peaceful and simply misunderstood religion.  Fucking barbaric
      is what it is and what they are.
      \_ You shouldn't be so quick to believe everything you read.  (I'm not
         saying it didn't happen - or that it did - just that it is the
         exception for even the western papers to get the facts straight and
         i would be unsurprised if the Saudi papers didn't even try to).
         Also (though i hate to be so trite, you clearly missed the point
           the first million times people have undoubtedly pointed it out to
         you), perhaps you have heard of The Spanish Inquisition?  Most
         Religions have had some leader that acted "barbaric"ly in the name
         of that religion.  People are often stupid and cruel.
         \_ The Spanish Inquisition was a long time ago, in a more barbaric
            age.  This is happening NOW.  Islam is the only religion where
            such depravity happens to this day.  Why do you think that is?
            Btw, it's 'barbarously.'
              \_ northern ireland mean anything to you?
                 \_ People in N Ireland are forcing little girls to stay in
                    burning buildings?  You've got a URL for that?  *That*
                    would certainly be news.
         \_ moron, apologistic fool who will kill us all eventually
         \_ You think it didn't happen?  Or might not have?  That wasn't the
            only URL on the topic.  Just the only one I posted.  It definitely
            happened.  The question remains, "When will we realise these people
            are fucked in the head?".
2002/3/6-7 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24038 Activity:very high
3/6     Recently it seems that a lot of wackos (e.g. Pat Robertson)
        have been bashing Muslims as violent extremists while other
        people defend Islam as a peace-loving religion.  Obviously
        I don't agree with Pat Robertson, but if Islam is a peace
        loving religion where does the idea of "holy war" come from?
        Do only some sects believe in "holy war" or is it part of the
        mainstream Islamic beliefs and if so how can Islam be
        peace loving?  Thanks
        \_ You've answered your own question.  I suggest you take your
           personl dislike of PR out of the equation and ask yourself the
           personal dislike of PR out of the equation and ask yourself the
           same questions you ask the motd.  The answer is self evident.
        \_ There are many interpretations of the Koran.  There are
           extremists for any religion; it all depends on how one
           was the Crusade.
                   \_ Crusades. There were a few.
           interprets it.  "Holy War" is hardly unique to Islam.  There
           was [sic. were] the Crusade.
                   \_ Crusades. There were six (plus some other forays).
                   \_ weren't the Crusades a response to the "JIHADS" and
                    bloody conquering all the followers of Mohammed did?
                      \_ Not really. The Crusaders were conquering the people
                         of the Near East and Middle East to "reclaim" the
                         Holy Land for the RCC. Muslims happen to be living
                         on that land. Gold, treasure, goods, and glory.
                         \_ duh, they had to reclaim it because the muslims
                          attacked and conquered the jewish settlements due to
                          mohammeds teaching and their their koran. It's okay
                         to claim with violence but not okay to take it back with
                         war? i don't understand.
                        \_ they conquered all the up to Spain with violent wars.
                        and killed those who wouldn't convert, this was before
                          the crusades by muslims.
        \_ jihad ("holy war") means a war against the ones primal nature.
           To wage a successful jihad one must turn ones aggressive
           nature inward and destroy the ego. The militants have grossly
           misinterpreted it. If you want a more indepth understanding
           Joseph Campbell has written and spoken about this.
           \_ Whether they misinterpreted it or not, they're now living it
              and have been killing innocent people in it's name for a few
              decades in modern times and earlier if you want to mix n match
              historical periods.  Murder by any other name is still murder.
              Do you think Joseph Campbell would like to go to Afghanistan,
              Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc, and explain
              to them they've got it all wrong?  I'm sure they'd just slap
              their heads like in a V8 commercial and change over night.
           \_ Thanks, I'll look around for that on the web.  Would you
              happen to have a URL?
              \_ You can get started at the Joseph Campbell foundation:
           \_ So is killing others via holy war discussed in the Koran?
              The New Testament doesn't explictly advocate killing one's
              enemies (although the Old Testament does).  Basically I'm
              wondering if Islam is like Christianity where the
              "official" dogma is non-violent but practioners are violent
              or like Judaism where the "official" dogma is explictly
              \_ The main problem of "dogma" is that it is often based
                 on a literal interpretatation of religious texts. Since
                 most of these texts were written metaphorically, such
                 an interpretation gets you lots of problems.
                 For example, think about the phrase "kill your enemies."
                 Who are your "enemies"? How do you know they are outside
                 of yourself and not inside? Think about that. Read
                 Campbell, he explains it like no other westerner I've
                 ever met.
              \_ This is incredibly blatant anti-semitism, and the
                 precise opposite of the truth.  Everything in the old
                 testament is included in the Christian Bible (barring
                 slight mistranslations) but the unmediated (<-key word;
                 Judaism explicitly forbids Jews to engage in the
                 literal, unmediated interpretation mentioned in the
                 previous response) Old Testament does not represent
                 "Jewish Dogma" in any way.  Jewish law is composed of
                 3000 years' interpretation and reinterpretation: the
                 Mishna, Talmud, Shulkhan Arukh, etc.  Jewish "official
                 dogma" is extremely complex (the Talmud alone fills an
                 entire bookcase, but great rabbis memorize it) and
                 pragmatic, and applies in a rational way to everyday
                 life; the closest it comes to being "explicitly
                 violent" is to say that a person in the act of murder
                 may be killed to prevent the murder.  Since I don't
                 watch the motd constantly, I probably won't have an
                 opportunity to reply to further nonsense on this
                 subject, but ... there's a reason there has never been
                 a Jewish "Holy War," barring Bible stories.
                 \_ What the hell are you thinking?  The motd is the perfect
                    place for lies, misinterpretation and blatant
                    anti-semitism.  How dare you bring coherent fact to the
                    motd and crush all debate?
        \_ What a stupid question!  Go read freerepublic since you're really
           only interested in one answer.  You might as well ask, "How can
           Christians really believe in the 10 commandments when they bomb
           abortion clinics?"
        \_ "Kill them all. God will recognize his own."
                           \_ I believe that its "God will sort the dead".
                              \_ Translation varies.
           \_ wasn't that a Metallica Album?
2002/2/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Reference/Religion] UID:23944 Activity:high
2/21    Daniel Pearl killed.
        \_ this kind of shit happens every day.  since he is american
           and pakistan is a musilim nation it's news because that helps
           feed anti-muslim sentiment in the u.s.
                \_ that's kinda cruel to say. either way it *was* someone
                   who was unfairly killed. that's all...
                \_ innocent people's heads being cut off with a knife and
                   videotaped. Yes, right. That's very common, in Chechnya
                        \_ hehe, or thailand
           \_ actually, i'm surprised it didn't get more coverage. most
              nights the local news hardly mentioned it, and when they did,
              it was, "Oh, and by the way, we're still not sure if
              the reporter's dead or not.  Now onto sports!"
           \_ I guess that's why US sent troops to Bosnia to help
              the muslims there?
              \_ after waiting for how long?? check your facts jack, wasn't
                 until other UN troops were held hostage did the U.S. care.
                 \_ Doesn't matter.  Clinton did the right thing in the
                    end, inspite of Republican opposition.  He is my
              \_ And thats why CLintoon bombed Christian Serbia to help
                 the Muslim KLA, the same muslims we fought in Afghanistan
                 and are now chasing around the world.
                 \_ The muslim world didn't seem to appreciate this, I think.
                    \_ The Bosnian muslims apprecated this, and that's
                       good enough.
                 \_ The Serbian yahoos ain't no Christians.  They are
                    bullies, and it's good that we bombed their arse.
                    Now the Balkans are all peaceful, and participating
                    in the Olympics too.  Clinton is my hero!
        \_ Gotta love the PC Jews at the NYT omitting very important details
           about the situation, just like the major networks wouldn't show
           dozens of people jumping from the WTC.  Pearl was not just murdered,
           he was beheaded.
2002/1/24 [Reference/Religion, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:23654 Activity:nil
1/24    What's the encryption method soda accepts now?  SSH used to use
        blowfish now it's 3des.  How come it changes around?
        [motd format god was here. next time the motd delete god will be here]
2002/1/17 [Reference/Religion] UID:23589 Activity:very high
1/17    is this some sick joke??
        \_ Not sick--fanatical, but not sick.  -John
        \_ It is neither the work of a fanatic nor sick.  If you understood
           the world outside Berkeley a bit better you'd know this sort of
           person and their way of thinking is quite common.  You're the odd
           one out in this world, not the ultra-edit guy.  He's harmless, why
           do you care how he makes his business decisions?  You on the other
           hand seem to have some issues with unfamiliar beliefs and ways of
           thinking.  The ultra-edit guy isn't the one with the problem.  Why
           do you find his faith so offensive?  (Before you go off attacking
           me as a right wing whacky nut religious freak, I'm not.  I'm a
           true atheist so don't bother.)
           \_ actually your're just boring and pedantic
              \_ How so?  Because I don't beat up on some random guy for his
                 strong belief in God?  I'm sure you're really exciting.  Who
                 else do you beat on that isn't exactly like you?  Does that
                 sort of shallow closed minded idiocy turn on the girls?
                 \_ Well, I can't speak to the boring part, but I believe the
                    poster was calling you pedantic because you managed to
                    generate ten lines of outrage from a one-line troll. As
                    for me, I was amused by the Ultra-Edit guy's line,
                    "From this point we knew that I was going to quit my job.
                    I told a few people almost immediately. I expected non-
                    Christians to think I was crazy, but it's surprising how
                    negative Christians can be also." What, he expected
                    non-Xians to think he was crazy for pursuing his dream?
                    How very peculiar!  --erikred
                       Which definition do you think the sub-genius was
                       using?  I don't think it means what he thinks it means.
                       Anyway, you can join the club with your 10 line reply.
                       I didn't know the motd had a reply length limit.  Silly
                       me.  I thought content mattered, not brevity.  Maybe Cal
                       has finally degraded down to community college levels.
                       \_ Funny, I went to for the definition
                          myself.  I believe the poster intended the common
                          pejorative connotation of one who holds forth at
                          great length on a topic of little importance.  Your
                          reply to me, on the other hand, fits the first
                          definition perfectly.  As for content, quality of
                          content has never mattered much on the motd, as
                          evidenced by your post to the original poster.
2002/1/2 [Reference/Religion] UID:23433 Activity:high
1/1     Religious Wars:
        \_ The BeOS crowd is =~ Amigaheads.  -tom
2001/12/19 [Reference/Religion, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:23304 Activity:nil
12/19   From now on, all posts critical of the Israeli government will be
        immediately eviscerated from the motd.          -- soda mossad
        \_ You're a meanie
        \_ And anything from the libertarians too because if a libertarian
           says something we shouldn't even hear about it.  We all know
           they're insane so we can dismiss everything they say without
           thought or intellectual effort.  Oh wait, no, this is Berkeley.
           No one at Berkeley would do that!  We have the highest standards!
           \_ Not anymore. The quality of thaistix this year really sucks.
        \_ this article is about Muslim Bedouins in the Israeli
        \_ The palestinians are stupid- they could have had land as mandated
           at the end of WW II.  Instead they were duped, and continue
           to be duped, by their leaders, by their 'Arab' brethren,
           and their hate for Jews, to perpetually fight to push all
           Jews into the sea.  Jews have been there since time eternal,
           and they have a right to be in Jerusalem.  All this trite
           demagoguery does nothing to obscure the facts.
        \_ it looked like the plan offered to arafat by barak and the US
           would have split the palestinians into 4 different pieces
           of land, with israeli controlled roads between them.  true?
           \_ I've read that somewhere.  I haven't read an original source,
              only interpretations of the agreement from people with an axe
              to grind.
           \_ There is some truth to that. Some have interpreted recent
              statements by Powell, Bush and Blair of a "viable Palestinian
              State" as meaning that this division would not exist in
              peace settlement/proposal. As to Barak's offer, it was indeed
              the best and most generous offer given to the Palestinians
              by the Israeli side. Unfortunately, as "good" as it was it didn't
              meet the minimum "requirements" of the Palestinians by not
              dealing with certain "HOT" topics.
2001/12/14 [Reference/Religion] UID:23245 Activity:high
12/13   all god-religion must die!
        \_ so should this cheesy troll.
                \_ obviously you haven't watched the bin laden confession tape.
                   \_ If bin laden had a csua account, he would be a troll,
        \_ anyone gotten a headache from smoking weed before?
        \_ Does Buddhism count?
                \_ Yes.  Why shouldn't it?
           \_ Buddhism doesn't suppress questioning of itself, encourage
              violence, or impose oppressive codes of law on people like the
              Judeo-whatever religions.
              \_ Can Buddhists eat meat, drink beer or have sex?
2001/12/11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Religion] UID:23211 Activity:insanely high
12/10   What is the big deal with John Walker?
        \_ When you grow up in America and are taught/shown/experience why
           secular govt, freedom of religion, (classical) liberalism, and
           capitalism (i.e. "consumerism") are actually good things, someone
           who attends terrorist camps and shoots at Americans is fucking
           annoying and a traitor to the blessings he was born with.
           \_ You've made my point, from the opposing point of view, better
              than I could have myself.
                \_ You're too smart for me.  Could you say that again using
                   common simple grammatical structure a 5th grader could
           \_ Plus he's white.
              \_ yes, that's why it's being made into a big deal.
                \_ If he was anything but Arab it would have been a big deal.
                   How much bigger a deal would it have been if his ancestors
                   were from, oh... say... Japan?  Get over the hate-whitey
                   \_ Actually, if he were an American of Arab descent,
                      i think it would be an even bigger deal.
                        \_ I disagree.  It's the photos of a pale disheveled
                           white guy that made the news.  If it was an
                           american of arab descent, we would just call him
                           an muslim who happened to speak english and spent
                           time in the states.
2001/12/9-10 [Reference/Religion] UID:23195 Activity:high
        Statistics and the ecosystem meltdown.
        \_ I'm not sure a Franciscan monk is where I want to get my
           authoritative interpretation about climatealogical and
           statistical evidence. Nonetheless, I think Bjorn
           \_ Gregor Mendel, Thomas Bayes.
           Lomborg has some good points -- environmentalism is, in some
           ways, about white people feeling better about themselves for
           doing insignificant things and that the world has more pressing
           problems that can be solved very cheaply if people were willing
           to do so. But some of the things Lomborg says are just silly.
           For example, he talks about air pollution and points out that
           it is a phenomenon that has been around for a long time in the
           western world and uses the fact that it is now getting better
           to point out that we are on the right track. Well no duh it's
           getting better. Air pollution ain't getting better because
           we are using more coal and driving more diesel cars. It's getting
           better because western contries have imposed regulations,
           environmental regulations, that improve air quality. Also, most
           conservation is so inexpensive to do and is a great way to both
           save money and help the planet (at least a little), so I can't
           imagine what kind of arguments one could level against it.
           I'm looking forward to a good reader that will have both
           the Lomborg perspective and opposing viewpoints.
           \_ Why does it seem difficult to understand that some people
              don't care about saving money or helping 'the planet'?
              \_ It is not difficult to believe. There are robbers,
                 murderers and rapists in the world, too, that is why
                 good will alone is not enough to create a civil society.
                \_ I suspect the point being that Kyoto isn't going to save
                   anything.  There's nothing in the link about "people don't
                   care about saving money or helping the planet".  I believe
                   all he is saying is that we should be intelligent about how
                   we approach the environment and not just swallow every bit
                   of doom and gloom that comes our way.  I'm old enough to
                   remember being taught in school how we were causing the next
                   ice age and how in our time the planet was going to plunge
                   in to eternal cold.  I remember when they switched to the
                   "it'll either freeze or burn" theory.  And now we're into
                   the "going to hell, burning" theory.  All this is only in
                   the last 25 years and comes from the same people.
                   \_ Computer people say completely different things now
                      about AI than they did 25 years ago.  Does that mean
                      that what they say now about AI is wrong?  No, it means
                      they have new information.  The process of refining
                      hypotheses based on new information is called
                      "science".  -tom
                      \_ What do they say, Tom?
                      \_ When you have pre-determined conclusions and make the
                         science fit the theory it is called "junk science".
                         And yes, tell us what AI people are saying today as
                         opposed to 25 years ago?
              \_ Nothing is difficult to understand about that. My comment
                 wasen't intended to address them, as those people will
                 do whatever they want no matter what. Lomberg isn't
                 addressing them either.
                 \_ Ok whatever.  Make your own thread if you want to be miles
                    off topic.
        \_ What a troll. A letter to the editor written by one person who
           bases his views of the environment on one book. I wonder how many
           books in the bibliography really support his beliefs.
           \_ If you read it and some of the referenced works you might know
              and have something intelligent to say instead of slamming it as
              a troll because you simply don't know.
2001/11/22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Religion] UID:23080 Activity:high
11/22   To whoever was asking about what happened to the israeli
        teenagers who were in the US illegally and they got picked
        up by the FBI after they were seen taking photos of themselves
        with the wtc burning in the background, they're still
        in jail without bail or access to outside communication,
        \_ Thanks for the boost to my cynicism.  Let's vote these bastards
           out and vote new ones in.
                \_ I'm all for new bastards.
        \_ URL please?  I thought this was a rumor created by left-wing
           Muslim fundamentalist Arabic anti-semites.
           \_ No, it is a rumor created by right-wing Christian fundamentalist
              American anti-semites. Keep your religious fanatics straight!
        \_ I read that they were released after a week or so.  No URL, sorry.
2001/11/16 [Reference/Religion] UID:23057 Activity:very high 50%like:22470
        Islam and the West: Why Bin Laden was wrong.
        \_ Is it possible to post something from and not get
           \_ No.  You're only allowed to post things certain other people
              find directly and personally interesting.  Anything they
              believe doesn't directly pertain to their life or they disagree
              with to any extent is a troll and shall be purged.
                \_ No need for euphemisms, anything inconsistent with
                   liberal pathological stupidity is a troll.
                   \_ True but it extends to non-political items of no
                      interest to certain people as well.  I have no problem
                      calling it like it is.  I wanted a broader definition.
                      calling it like it is, but I wanted a broader definition
2001/10/30 [Reference/Religion] UID:22864 Activity:nil
10/29   Bible and less than 100 years of historical context aside, isn't
        Israel technically built on an Arab owned land?
        \_ fuck israel.
        \_ Isn't America technically built on Arapaho, Cherokee, et al land?
        \_ Doesn't it all belong to the Pharaoh?
2001/10/23 [Reference/Religion] UID:22804 Activity:nil
        Islam is a lame religion, and so was Christianity.
        Pikachu means I'm a Jew in Japanese
           Bombing is not the answer.
           (If someone can come up with a better link, please do.)
           -original p0ser
2001/10/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Religion] UID:22798 Activity:very high
10/22   Looking for a good resource on how to pick a good English name
        (or a christian name rather) from a Chinese name.  Since I'm not
        Christian, I'm having a hard time getting used to being called
        "John" or "David" or "Josh", etc.  How did you resolve this dilemma?
        Are there easy to pronounce names that are not christian in origin?
        Pointers would be appreciated.  Thanks.
        \_ Why would you want a white Christian name?  Helping out the
           imperialists, eh?
        \_ My gawd! Why would you do this? Just how many people out there
           have the same exact combination of English first name and Asian
           last name?!?! In fact, I find mine to be curse. Be proud you are
           Chinese and not some "John Lee" or "David Lin" or whatever.
           \_ I find Japanese gals with Japanese first names more exotic than
              those with English first names.  --- Chinese
              \_ japanese names are usually pronouncable by non japanese
                 speakers.  not so of many chinese names.
        \_ John, David, and Josh are all christian names?  I think you are a
           bit confused as to what Christian means.
           \_ Is Jesus a Christian name?
        \_ why make it sound like the original?  as a non-chinese who has lived
           in china and studied chinese, i find chinese names that are a weak
           imitation of the original sound to be pretty pointless.  it's a
           different name.  just pick a name you like, and forget about
        \_ Of course there are. For example, a woman's name of Wendy is not
           Christian. Why not go for the most popular non-Christian name
           and choose "Mohammed"? --dim
        \_ The most common first name in the world is Mohammed.  The most
           common last name is Wong.  I've always wanted to meet someone
           named Mohammed Wong.
        \_ all chinamen should be called joe.  -- a chinaman
        \_ pick a name from fantasy or mythology. like Thor, Ulysses,
           Conan, Zeus, etc. If I was picking a fake name I'd never want some
           mundane joe schmoe name. Pick something with power and panache.
           \_ Heh, I actually know a Chinese guy namd Conan. And also 'Valiant'
              which was derived from 'Wai Lun'. For girls, I like 'Geneva'.
           \_ Soda already has a ulysses.
           \_ From now on call me MAX POWER! --Homer
              \_ You don't just cuddle with Max Power ... you strap on and
                 FEEL THE G'S!
                 \_ Homer: there are three ways to do things... the right way,
                           the wrong way, and THE MAX POWER WAY!
                    Bart : Uh, isn't that the wrong way?
                    Homer: Yes, but faster!
        \_ They call me Bruce.
        \_ As if you'd get a helpful response asking the CSUA for help
           with baby names.
        \_ Homer, Bart, Lisa, Margaret, Montgomery, Barney, Apu, Milhouse, etc.
        \_ Call me John-Holmes.
        \_ does this
           vaguely have any pronounciation relation to knuth?
2001/10/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:22701 Activity:nil
10/11     Reading a lot on hedonic relativism.. good stuff which makes
        normal americans scream repression.  basically it is all related
        to AL theory, adaptation level. If our AL grows without bounds we
        are unhappy. This is common knowledge throughout history asnd
        thus man has placed certain restriction on himself through
        religion. These restrictions are intended to increase ones
        happiness in the long term by in effect making one unhappy today.
          In my mind this makes perfect sense in trying to resolve my
        distaste of consumption. Why by little stuff every day when every
        4 years I can buy a porsche which I will remember every day. I
        will thus remember the sacrifices and remember the pleasure
        making me a happier person in the long run. I am sure you have
        experiences similar to this.
          Well this is what I have called "my way" my religion and honestly
        this makes me feal sorry for the people in the islamic world
        which run their lives in a similar way in order to maximize their
        happiness. How can such a poor country survive??? religion... the
        way of life...  sacrifices..
          I only hope I can find these characteristic in argentina, I
        really should plan to get down there next summer, gettin gout of
        the US should be top priority, the american way just doesn't
        work- it inherintly makes people unhappy thus requiring ever
        higher levels of consumptions.
          Funny- why has america prospered so much more than other
        countries- our religion REQUIRED IT. with no thought of the
        consequences, no thought to what happens when the shit hits the
        fan how do we deal with it... in other cultures they practice and
        honor the situations where the shit hits the fan and lives their
        lives accordingly much happier.
          BTW this can all be modelled formally using game theory.....
        good stuff... comments suggestions
        \_ "religion is the opiate of the masses."
        \_ If his parents named him Trevor, I bet kinney would be a be-boy
2001/10/6 [Reference/Religion] UID:22657 Activity:nil
10/5    What you (especially if you are a woman) need to know about Islam:
        Don't censor the Koran, words of the Prophet and his believers.
2001/10/6 [Reference/Religion] UID:22650 Activity:high
10/5    self explanatory:
        \_ good. we should not be "tolerant" of religions. we should come down
           on religion with a heavy, mailed fist of fury for all the shit
           that it causes.
           \_ Why not educate everyone instead?  Real education, not steeping
              in dogma.  Prisoners who gain an education in prison more rarely
              become recidivists.  The same can be said of societies.
           \_ plz execute mailed fist on 90% of americans who believe in g0d.
        \_ Better link:
           \_ That looks like Blojo in a wig.
2001/9/20 [Reference/Religion] UID:22560 Activity:moderate
9/20    Some words of wisdom from the Quran:

        [at-Taubah 9:123] O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers
        who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that
        Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

        [an-Nisa' 4:74] Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life
        of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he
        slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

        [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
        make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of
        those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
        every fingertip of them.
        \_ So who says Islam disapproves violence?
           \_ The whole problem here is that you are reading these things
              litterally, rather than metaphoically. Its like pretending
              that poetry is really prose.
              These things are really about internal conflicts not external
              \_ I get it.  Thanks.  Maybe the Islamic extremists are also
                 interpreting these literally so as to justify their actions.
2001/9/19 [Reference/Religion] UID:22534 Activity:high
9/19 -- Can somebody say MONOPOLY?
        \_ "The history of Binladin began in 1931 when Mohammed Binladin
           founded the company."  Wasn't Mohammed the father of Osama?
           --- yuen
           founded the company."  Wasn't Mohammed bin Ladin the father of
           Osama?  --- yuen
2001/9/18 [Reference/Religion] UID:22509 Activity:high
9/18    Fewer than 1 in 6 American Muslims are Arabs.  Fewer than 1 in 5
        Arab-Americans are Muslims.
        Fewer than 1 in 6 Muslims worldwide are Arabs.
        Afghanistans are not Arabs, although bin Laden is an Arab.
        Hope this clears up some misunderstanding.
        (As an example, there's a big Chinese Muslim restaurant in Milpitas
        --- yuen
        \_ Informing many Americans that Afghanis and Persians are not Arabs
           is akin to telling them that not all Asians are Chinese. I'm
           reminded here of what happened to non-Chinese people last Spring
           during the Hainan affair.
           \_ So ALL Asians are Chinese? You mean none of those Asians
              are Japanese or Korean?
2001/9/18 [Reference/Religion] UID:22504 Activity:high
9/18    I really good point was made yesterday.  The dumbest thing any american
        can do is to harass or in anyway mistreat arab-americans or american
        muslims.  IF there still are terrorists at large in the US that come
        from an arab culture or muslim faith, then the most likely people to
        notice them and help bring them to justice are the arab-americans or
        american muslims.
        Arab-americans and american muslims are everybit as american as anyone
        else and we should count ourselves lucky if they pay extra attention
        for the good and protection of all of us.  The last thing we want is
        to make them feel apart from us.
        \_ I watched the service in the national cathedral on Friday.  When I
           saw the imem (Dr. something from the Islamic Society of North
           America) and the rabbi walking into the Christian church side-by-
           side and delivered their speeches together, I was very touched.
           I hope all Americans and all the Jews and Muslims in the Middle
           East can see this.  I hope all Americans see the President talking
           in a mosque yesterday too.  (What Bush actually said there is less
           \_ What did he say?
           East can see this.
           in a Muslim temple yesterday too.  (What Bush actually said there
           in a mosque yesterday too.  (What Bush actually said there
           is less important.)
2001/9/17 [Reference/Religion] UID:36325 Activity:nil
9/16    No, it is not "punishment from God".  However, it is important
        for Christians to examine why the attack happened.  Yes, we
        should destroy the terrorist networks.  However, this is not
        a long term solution because these networks will spring up again
        if the underlying resentment and hatred are not reconciled.
        We have to ask ourselves if our middle-eastern policies are in
        accordance to the teachings of our Lord.  Have we been pursuing
        material well-being, in the form of a cheap oil supply, at the
        expense of the well-being of others?  Have we been sacrificing
        justice and doing what's right for the sake of our self-interests?
        Have we placed our trust in our military might instead of in the
        Lord?  Have we been mis-using our military might?  In our safety
        and abundance, have we become indifferent to the sufferings of
        others?  Have we been worshipping Mammon, the god of money, and
        Bel, the god of war, instead of our Lord?
        \_ What if there is no God? What if all the lives spent in
           persuit of holier-than-thou-because-my-God-is-better
           could have instead lived their own lives? Nothing
           Absolutly nothing has cost more lives in the
           history of humankind than organized religion.
                                     \- i dont think islam today is
                                     particularly well organized. what
                                     do you mean by "organized relig" --psb
                                     \- this is a cliche somewhere between
                                     "the love of money is the root of all
                                     evil" and "capitalism causes imperialism".
                                     btw, people should start saying "evil"
                                     like alec guiness rather than the american
                                     "eevul" ... "ee-ville". --psb
           \_ Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Caligula?
              What were their faith?
                \_ Hitler was insane. Good point on Stalin and Mao:
                   Marxism is rising in the ultimate body count.
              \_ yeah and the inquisition was what? a census count?
                 \_ Don't forget the crusades. Just your friendly
                    Christian tourists on holiday from europe.
                    \_ My point is, do not unthinkingly put the blame on
                       "organized religion" when the cause is our selfish,
                       corrupted human nature.
                       "organized religion" when the cause may be our
                       own selfish, corrupted human nature.
                       \_ Maybe the cause is our corrupt and unthinkingly
                          internalized force-fed social and moral structure.
                          Perhaps we should re-examine the core tenets of
                          Judeo-Christian thought and the easy tendency for
                          too many adherents to blindly accept what is fed to
                          them on some absurd notion of "Faith".  Religion is
                          a crutch for the weak-minded.
                          \_ An easy and "smart" out for atheists.
                             Consider all the universal constants that are
                             somehow just right for the universe to exist,
                             talk to an astrophysicist, and ask him/her
                             how much tolerance there is in those numbers.
                             Whether you believe in the big bang or not,
                             there are evidence in the universe that
                             point towards that it was DESIGNED by someone.
                          \_ Why don't we start listing all the weak-minded
                             individuals who believe in the Lord, starting
                             with Abraham Lincoln, .....
                             individuals who have faith in the Lord.  Let's
                             start with Abraham Lincoln, ...
                             \_ As it happens actually, I'm not an atheist.
                                I'm catholic.  But I really depise when idiots
                                armed with empty platitudes attempt to
                                sanctimoniously proselytize people to their
                                rediculous blindly accepting POV.  If even
                                a quarter of the people out there actually
                                THOUGHT about the structure of the relgion
                                they ascribed to or the organization that
                                has indoctrinized them, our world would be
                                about 10 times better off than it is.  Sadly,
                                "Faith" has become a cheap, drive through
                                substitute for understanding and intellectual
                                exploration.  Why consider the ramifications
                                or relevancy of my moral structure when I can
                                just mainline "Faith" in the "Plan" of the
                                divine creator?  I can't belIEVE that I'm
                                wasting my time with this.  Be happy in your
                                self-imposed blindess man.  Personally, I'm
                                not going to be complacent and just accept
                                whatever the current fad is as the Word of God.
                             \_ bs.  I'd believe constants were "designed" if
                                pi were exactly 3, but otherwise it's
                          \_ Why don't we start listing all the weak-minded
                             individuals who have faith in the Lord.  Let's
                             start with Abraham Lincoln, ...
           \_ IMAGINE all the PEOPLEEEE . . . LIVING for TODAYYYYYYY . . .
        \_ Praise God! May *all* of us be counted worthy. -allenp
        \_ This is mild, coming from the God of the Old Testament.  If he
           really exists, this isn't enough pain and death to serve His
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:36284 Activity:nil
9/12    What movie is that with Denzel Washington where there was terrorism
        in America so they had to put Arab Americans in "concentration camps"?
        \_ The Siege. This is so similar its eerie.
           \_ I doubt there will be concentration camps.  However, anti
              Arab American sentiment will be there.
              \_ I agree. Even Hilter style concentration camps are too
                 decent for these people.
                 \_ uh... WTF is that supposed to mean?
              \_ Hilter style concentration camps are too decent for these people.
                 \_ maybe they should put YOU in a "hilter style" camp.
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:36281 Activity:nil
9/12    Some of the muslims you see on TV cheering-- they may or may not
        have direct involvement, but they should be ashamed of themselves.
        They're like cockroaches. You can exterminate thousands of them,
        but there will still be millions left. So whether they're directly
        involved or not, they should be exterminated indiscriminantly.
        \_ that's just how the Muslims were taught to hate US.  --PeterM
        \_ Wouldn't you say tha this exactly how Iraqi and Libyan
           civilians feel about the U.S.?
           \_ Why are we even trying to reason with this racist idiot in the
              first place?? How did he even get a soda account?
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36278 Activity:nil
9/12    I'm compiling a list of actions that we can take against the
        terrorists.  Please add to this list.
        1. bomb Afghanistan back into the stone age.  They don't have any
           natural resources that we need.  It's useful as a nuclear test
           site though.
           \_ Afghanistan is already in the stone age. All we can do is
              to make it a big nuclear crater.
        2. finish the job with Iraq.  After killing saddam, we colonize the
           country and take over their oil fields.  Put the iraq soldiers to
           work in the oil fields.
        3. Deal with the palestinian problem once and for all.  Move them all
           to Iraq and work the oil fields.
        4. While we're at it, bomb Iran as well.  Take over their oil fields
           and put them to work in the oil fields.
        5. Send in our very best Christian conversion people.  Pat Robertson,
           Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, etc.  It's time for them to abandon
           Allah and come to Christ!
        6. Deport all non-citizen Muslims and Hindus from the US.  To comply
           with the US constitution, we can't touch them if they're citizens.
           But by god, let's get rid of all the Hindus on H-1 visas.  They
           all look and smell the same anyway.  The US is no place for people
           who worship animals like elephants, rats, or Allah.
           \_ Is this supposed to be humurous or are you seriously stupid?
        \_ hahaha
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:36277 Activity:nil
9/12    Why doesn't the US just remove support from Israel?
        Does the fact that roughly 10% of our politicans are
        Jewish and none are Muslim have anything to do with it?
        Why would removing support for Israel hurt america?
        \_ If the wolves are coming for us, I guess I should throw you
           to them first since they will probably be full after eating
           you and thus won't be interested in me. Great logic.
        \_ Becuase a majority of americans are christian, and thus share
           a large chunk of stuff with judaism. You cant be christian and
           not agree with judaism.
           This is not the case for islam.
           \_ hi dumbass. you're wrong. you should shut the fuck up,
              especially since this is such a sensitive issue. it's one thing to\
 keep talking your stupid talk when it's about Java or C++ but when you're
              talking about people's lives, just keep to your fucking incompetent self.
              especially since this is such a sensitive issue. it's
              one thing to keep talking your stupid talk when it's
              about Java or C++ but when you're talking about people's
              lives, just keep to your fucking incompetent self.
           \_ Allah and Yahve (sp?) are the same damn god, its unbelievable
              that people can't seem to understand this.
              \_ I heard that Jesus Christ also exists in Islam, but he's a
                 a prophet instead of a son of a god.  Is that true?
                 \_ Correct as stated. -alexf
                 \_ I heard something similar as well.
           \_ Islam : Christianity as Christianity : Judiasm
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:22416 Activity:high
9/12    What I want to know is the percentages behind the Jewish #'s in
        the American media and the Muslim percentages in the American
        media. Also same with politicians who shape our international
        affairs. is it any wonder why we antagonize the arabs then?
        \_ Journalists' guide to covering Arab Americans:
        \_ I think the average joe isn't even sure whether he should hate Arabs
           or Muslims (not to mention he shouldn't hate them collectively in
           the first place.)  I'm still confused whether or not most Arabs are
           Muslims, whether the Islamic world is against US or the Arab world
           is against US or both or neither, and so on.
           is against US or both, and so on.  All I know is
           is against US or both, and so on.  Should I interpret the TV footage
           as "The Arabs cheering on / condemning the attack" or "The muslims
           cheering on / condemning the attack".  All I think I know is
           "ethnic Isralis" are *more or less* the same as "jewish".
           cheering on / condemning the attack".  Is the Middle East conflict
           about Arabs or Muslims?  All I think I know is that "ethnic Isralis"
           are *more or less* the same as "jewish".
           \_ There are Christian Arabs, and non-Arab Muslims. Most Arabs are
              I think the real problem is that most people have no clue WHY
              these people hate the US, or why some might cheer such an action.
              \_ Is it Arabs or is it Muslims whose women cover up their faces
                 in public?
                 \_ Muslims, but it's not required by the religion and I don't
                    know if it's limited to Muslims.
              \_ Its the green eyed monster of envy. They hate us because we
                 are believe in freedom, equality, liberty and our beliefs
                 have made us prosperous in ways that they can never hope to
                 achive (mainly because of thier screwed up religious system).
                 Go ahead tell me I'm wrong and childish etc. Its you who are
                 wrong, if you believe that somehow this shit is our fault for
                 doing x to country/people a or support country/people y.
                 \_ you're not childish, but you are wrong.
                    It's because of women flaunting themselves about
                    in public and in films, rampant homosexuality, and
                    general degeneracy in the USA.
                    \_ Our way of life, esp. liberty, freedom and equality
                       require us to tolerate behaviors that we do not agree
                       with. They hate the ideas of liberty, freedom and
                       equality (esp. for women).
                    \_ Exactly my point. They hate our way of life, esp.
                       the freedom for people to live and do as they chose
                       so long as it is consistent with civil order.
2001/9/12 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Reference/Religion] UID:22415 Activity:nil
9/12    This is depressing:
        Regardless of what muslims in the near east did, muslims
        here should not be treated like the japanese americans
        were during WWII. The enemy may move among them, but they
        are not the enemy.
        \_ It's getting more and more like "The Siege".
2001/9/12 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Reference/Religion] UID:22405 Activity:high
9/12    These people need to die:
        \_ Agreed.
        \_ ...Rocket-Propelled Grenades!?!???  "Please fire straight up"
        \_ I think it is worthwhile to consider that the Palestinians
           live in a situation where the Israelis use guns against people
           armed with rocks , etc.  Several palestinians have died from
           what many would call oppression.  Isreal is supported financially
           by the US and its not peanuts.  For the US to experience needless
           violence some could consider justified.  I think anyone that is using
           violence is awrong.  Just something to consider before calling for
           the death of people you don't know.  - a swede (yeah, one of those
           neutral f----rs).
           \_ Rock throwers are the ones they put in view of the CNN cameras.
              They don't put the armed assassins and carbombers on CNN. The
              palestinians aren't human they have lost the right to be treated
              and considered as such because of this. I say we wipe them out,
              all of them.
              \_ Funny, I think Hitler used the same thinking.  How quickly
                 people forget their history. - the swede
                 \_ the diference being that the jews of the time werent
                    using weapons to attack people. The palestinians are.
                 \_ The jews in germany did not chear in the streets when
                 \_ The jews in germany did not cheer in the streets when
                    germans civilians die during fire bombings. They were
                    human beings, those things in palestine are not.
                    \_ First of all, how the f do you know what every jew
                        did during those times?  Keep in mind, only those
                        palestinians that are stupid enough to celebrate
                        the loss of lives are reported on TV.  We have the
                        same kind of morons here in the US walking around
                        in white sheets celebrating bombings of african
                        american churches in the US.
                        \_ Granted some Palestinians may not have been
                           involved in the celebration, but they are
                           clearly in the minority throughout the arab
                   \_ Second of all, who are you to decide who is human?
                        It is frightening to think that you are using the
                        same justifications as were used in WWII to kill
                        jews, gays, handikapped, gypsies, ...
                        You and your attide revolt me.  I can only hope it is
                        youth talking. - the swede
                        \_ It is people with your attitude that sit idly
                           by while the muslim menace destroys all that is
                           good in this world. There were people like you
                           in my country once. When the muslims came and
                           sacked our temples and homes and murdered our
                           families these people said, give them room.
                           We gave them room. They murdered our relatives
                           and sent their corpses over in trains. They
                           laughed in the streets, and people like you
                           said understand them, accept them, its not
                           thier fault its our fault we must make more
                           room. We did. It hasn't worked. The time for
                           inaction and diplomacy is past, the time for
                           action is now.
        \_  First of all let me thank you for at least putting your
            statements into context.  This makes it easier to understand
            where you come from.
            Let me make it clear that I am not advocating "sitting idly by."
            This kind of acts have to be dealt with and most likely force
            will be necessary.  What I am objecting to is the use of _blind_
            rage.  You have painted all muslims alike.  You are advocating
            the killing of innocent people when you call for the death of
            celebrating palestinians.  Their behavior is as abhorrent as
            yours.  But all it is, are words, for them and hopefully for you
            as well.  It may sound like BS but the _right_ people has to be
            found and should be punished.  Killing the wrong people will just
            justify another terrorist attack in the mind of some misguided
            suicide bomber/hijacker/whatever.
            I hope I can get you to agree that the action that is needed
            today has to be deliberate and just.  Or, would you rather
            that we kill innocent people just so we can say we had revenge?
            - the swede
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:22392 Activity:insanely high
9/11    Why is most of the Arab world completely fucked up? What's the problem?
        Is it the religion, or the manipulation by totalitarian gov'ts? Or what?
        \_ I suspect it's an unfortunate mix of religious fundamentalism
           and fucked up middle eastern foreign policy.
        \_ Its the religion. That religion has had problem with everyone,
           jews, christians, hindus and buddhists. The only solution is
           nuke the bastards.
           \_ haven't (radical) christians had a problem with everyone too?  the
              only solution is to totally outlaw religion.
           \_ this is the reason why the hell I'm not religious.  Historically,
              look at how many lives have been lost over religion.
              \_ The difference really is that most christians aren't
                 radically, and even the radicals don't do things like
                 radical, and even the radicals don't do things like
                   \_ dipshit.  What just happened in Ireland?  Again?
                      \_ One country with problem christians vs. dozens
                         of countries with problem muslims. These people
                         need to be eliminated.
                 this. In comparisions most muslims are radicals, and
                 if the celebrations in Palestine are any indications,
                 relish this type of activity.
                 I still can't believe they were celebrating in Palestine.
                 Don't they know that if they had anything to do with this
                 they will be wiped of the face of the earth for all time?
                 \_ typical, self-centered, holier-than-thou Christian view.
                    "Christians aren't radically" [sic], "most muslims are
                    radical." Please.
                    \_ I'm not christian.
                 \_ did it ever occur to you that when you see people
                    in Palestinia celebrating what happened yesterday,
                    that it might be worth your time to ask why they
                    were reacting the way they did instead of condemning
                    them for doing so?
                        \_ It's the same way fucked up people here cheer
                           when anything blows up in another part of the
                           world. Doesn't mean Christians hate the Mid
                           East or Ireland or Asia or anything...some
                           people just are like that.
                           \_ Bullshit.  Do the people here cheer when
                              they hear about the latest bombing in
                              Israel? it runs deeper than fucked up people
                              cheering whenever something blows up "over
                     \_ There is no valid reason for celebrating the
                        destruction of civilian targets. Those who do
                        are no better than those who committed this
             \_ Nah, don't blame religion when it's your fucking bad-ass
                corrupted human nature.  Think Stalin, Mao, Hitler,
                Caligula, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, etc.
                Caligula, Genghis Khan.
                \_ The only good muslim I can think of was Akbar. And
                   even he wasn't that good. Its muslims. They need to
                   be eliminated.
2001/7/4 [Reference/Religion] UID:21713 Activity:nil
7/4     From an IMDB summary of "Family Matters":
        Summary: I weep

        I weep for the cast of Family Matters, who have besmirched their lives
        by taking part in this horrible drivel. I weep for the writers, who,
        should they be shameless enough, to include this show on their resume,
        will ruin their careers forever. I weep for the English language,
        which, God willing, will someday recover from the wretched blemish of
        the word "Urkel." I weep for the countless children who watched this
        show and laughed; it's a human tragedy.  Above all, I weep for God.
        Having seen Family Matters, I know that He does not exist.
2001/6/30 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Kinney, Reference/Religion] UID:21689 Activity:nil 66%like:21055
6/30    [Oh my god, you nuked kinney!]
        \_ you bastard!
2001/5/25 [Reference/Religion] UID:21360 Activity:high
5/25    O motd formatting god, I am in awe of your curious powers. In
        appreciation of the gifts you have bestowed on us, I would
        like to erect an idol. How would you like to be represented?
        \_ You said erect.  huhuhuhuh.
        \_ The motd formatting god is not a god of idolatry.  You shall be
           cast down into the depths of 85 column formatting if you whorship
           idols.  Your spiritual contacts are all to be through the one true
           church: /etc/motd.public
           \_ 85?  Shouldn't it be 80?
              \_ Get Thee Back to Thy 40-column Filth! -Motd Formatting
                                                        High Priest
2001/5/14 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:21277 Activity:high
5/14    My rant of the day:  What is wrong with you Korean bible bangers?
        Stop harassing me... just cuz I'm reading by myself on the lawn
        doesn't mean I'm spiritually lost or need salvation.  so fuck off.
        \_ Korean bible bangers?
           \_ Ever been to Golden Bear at 6am?  I have (to do some last minute
              futile cramming for an 8am exam), and there were a large group
              of Koreans doing some sort of bible study.  I got the impression
              they do this regularly.  Seems like every Korean is part of one
              of a trillion churches in the neighborhood.
              \_ as long as they don't harass you to love Jebus, who cares?
        \_ Just call them traitors to shut them up. Ask if their ancestors would
           approve of them pushing some white religion.
2001/5/14 [Recreation/Dating, Reference/Religion] UID:21267 Activity:very high
5/14    I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the
        sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate
        me, but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me
        and keep my commandments. -Exodus 20:5-6
        \_ Didn't someone try to pass a bill or something to punish Americans
           for the sin of their fathers to the third and fourth generations of
           those who enslaved African Americans, and even Americans whose
           ancestors immigrated after that era, by paying some amount of
           compensation to all African Americans who live today?
           \_ attempt to troll, DENIED
        \_ man whatever, within a few generations all us immigrants will have
           our genes mixed out with white genes.
           \_ HOT AZIAN CHIXS!!!1!
              \_ Please spell it correctly: H07 4ZN CH1X
                 \_ Houw about "42N"?
              \_ Please spell it correctly: H07 42N CH1X
                 \_ How about "42N"?
                    \_ 5P3111NG C0RR3C73D!
           vicious cycle.
           \_ Hot Asian Chicks!!!
        \_ That's why a child who got abused by his father would very likely
           be an abuser himself when he grows up and has a kid.  Sin begets
           vicious cycle.  Also read Deut 24:15-17:
           sin.  Evil begets evil.  Accepting Christianity would break the
           vicious cycle.
        \_ Also read Deut 24:15-17:
           "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children
           put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."
           \_ So I guess the real question is, which religion abuses their
              children the most. Is it time for another one of those polls?
           \_ where does Christianity say anything about not abusing kids?
2001/4/22 [Reference/Religion, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:21055 Activity:nil 66%like:21689
4/21     Oh my god! They nuked the motd!
         \_ you know, the motd always comes back...
         \_ death cannot stop true love, all it can
            do is delay it a while.
         \_ Those bastards!
2001/4/20 [Reference/Religion] UID:21030 Activity:nil
4/19    What do you mean Jedi is not a religion?
        If Scientology is a religion, then so is the otherwise-known-as-
        make-George-Lucas-richer religion of Jedi.
        \_ Scientology is not a religion.
2001/4/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:20955 Activity:high
4/12    This is the first time I find myself agreeing with the
        ACLU on something. The separation of church and state:
        \_ god has no place within these walls, just like facts
           have no place within organized religion!
           \_ so putting atheist views into "these walls" is not the same
              thing as putting religion into "these walls" since atheism is
              just another religion
              \_ The lack of religion in school teaching is not the same as
                 the promotion of atheism.  Schools should be talking about
                 math, science, literature, and history.  Not belief in God
                 or lack of belief in God.  Schools should deal with facts,
                 not beliefs.
              \_ coherency--
              \_ if you're trying to argue that atheism is a religion, well
                 nice flamebait but that's a ridiculous statement.
                 \_ Atheism is not a religion, but both atheism and theism
                    are beliefs.  As one above poster put it, beliefs have
                    no place in schools, only facts do.
        \_ I agree with the ACLU often, however, they are wrong this time.
           There is no reasonable way the first amendment can be interpreted
            to say that it is illegal to give out bibles in schools.
                \_ There's a difference between "giving out bibles in schools"
                   (which I disagree with but that's another issue) and the
                   child in this case who was held up by the teachers as an
                   object of scorn and ridicule which gives license to the
                   other kids to make her suffer.  I've had a small taste of
                   what this child was put through.  It is wrong to put a
                   child through this and hypocritical to do so in the name
                   of Jesus' love.  If it was you as a child with the minority
                   non-conformist view/religion/race/economic status/whatever
                   in grade school you'd feel differently about it today.  I
                   say again, the school system *should* be about teaching the
                   "three R's" (plus history and a few other things that don't
                   start with "R") :-) and nothing else.  I don't care if the
                   case is a first amendment issue or a last amendment issue.
                   What was done to the little girl was morally wrong.  All in
                   the name of Jesus....
2001/2/22-23 [Reference/Religion] UID:20649 Activity:moderate
        I'm speechless.  Just...speechless.
        \_ I dunno what to say except... why hasn't Darwinism eliminated
           such people yet?!?
        \_ the more I read the less I could believe it...
        \_ Brrrr.
        \_ How many kids do you think this guy has molested?
        \_ Did you see the counter at the bottom of the peter-pan site?
           over 240,000 people have seen that man's face.
           That's about a quarter million; just reading about THAT guy.  wow.
           What a fruitcake.  I think he needs a guinea worm.
2001/1/3 [Reference/Religion] UID:20221 Activity:nil
1/2     motd restored. --motd restoration god
2000/12/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:20074 Activity:nil
12/11   GOD DAMN IT
2000/11/4-5 [Reference/Religion] UID:19640 Activity:very high

        What's with those wacky Germans? First David Hasselhoff now this.
        \_ Go away you scientologist-sympathizer
        \_ What's in that Scientology religion?  Webster dictionary doesn't
           have the word.
           \_ Scientology is a cult.  For more information, please see
           \_ Scientology is some "religion" founded by a science fiction
              author.  I think that says all you need to know right there.
                \_ Christianity is some "religion" founded by a Jewish
                   carpenter's son.  I think that says all you need to know
                   right there.  Islam is some "religion" founded by an arab
                   merchant.  I think that says all you need to know right
                   there.  Judaism was founded by God.  I think that says all
                   you need to know right there.
                   \_ ^God^some now-nameless lower-middle-class merchant or
                      local nutcase, probably somewhere around Phoenicia.
                        \_ Uh oh.. motd user with zero history knowledge
                           spewing again....  Maybe next time, eh?
                   \_ Yeah this is one sweet troll right here.
                      \_ this is a troll: i will kick you in the nuts!!!!
                        \_ This whole thread is flame bait right from the
                           start.  I was simply hammering the point home.
                           All religions are a total crock.  There is no God
                           or Gods.  Blind faith is for the weak minded and
                           the oppressed who aren't making it this time around
                           to give them hope for more luck next time.
                           \_ Good thing my faith isn't blind.
        \_ You seem to miss the my point. I don't understand how the
           religious affiliation of the CEO (not a even a coder) affects
           the useability of a given application. Its completely illogical.
                \_ It doesn't.  Their laws make it clear that they won't do
                   business with or use the products of companies associated
                   with Scientology.  Period.  CEO is a Scientologist?  Then
                   there's a pretty serious affiliation.  It isn't about code.
                   \_ it should be about kicking people in the nuts.
                      fi the scientologists kicked people in the nuts,
                   \_ It should be about kicking people in the nuts.
                      If the scientologists kicked people in the nuts,
                      they would get kicked in the nuts in return
                      and there would be peace and harmony.
                        \_ [motd typo fixing god was here]
                   It is about business.  All business.
2000/10/29-30 [Recreation/Dating, Reference/Religion] UID:19594 Activity:kinda low
                                                           \_ Smut Markup
        \_ This has been posed to the MOTD at least once before.
        \_ Just proves that you should avoid women at all costs.
           \_ similarly,
              "Couples in conservative rural Egypt do not take off all
               their clothes when they have sex"
              Now THAT's conservative.
              \_ No, its all part of the F*ed up Muslim religion. The
                 same religion that forces women to wear black from head
                 to toe, because men are some how incapable of controlling
                 thier urges or some bs like that.
2000/10/13-15 [Reference/Religion] UID:19477 Activity:high
10/13   Regarding the discussion below, is Muslim the proper term for
        those people who live in the Middle East, North Africa, Persia
        and follow (to varying degrees) the teachings of Mohamad?
        \_ a guy i work with who is one of the brightest, most multitaleneted,
           fun to work with , hard working people it's ever been my
           privelage to work with is a muslim, and he's from new york.
                -a jew who is not a predjudiced asshole
           \_ He must not be a practicing muslim, as the attributes
              you describe he has are mutually exclusive to the practice
              of islam.
        \_ Muslim is the name for followers of the religion of Islam.
        \_ In my language Mohamad rougly translates to "Exterme Imbicile".
           Thus his followers can be refered to as Extereme Imbiciles.
           \_ which language, if serious?
              \_ The term Mohamaden is used to describe Muslims. This
                 is general written Maha (meaning great/extereme) and
                 Mudan (meaning imbicile/idiot) in most Indian languages.
                 \_ "most" -- indoeuropean or dravidian?
                    \_ I would say most sanskrit (indoeuropean) based
                       languages. Dravidian "languages" is somewhat
                       of an oxymoron, as they are most closely related
                       to primitive grunting than a real language.
                       Most scholars consider dravidian "language" forms
                       to be the native language forms of india, since
                       sanskirt was introduced much later by the vedic
                       invaders whose origin is much disputed.
2000/10/13-14 [Reference/Religion] UID:19473 Activity:insanely high
10/13   What is wrong with those arabs? Bombing American vessels, killing
        Israeli soldiers, etc. Do they want to get nuked or what?
        \_ enough of this racist bickering.  it hurts you know.  if you
           want to know the two sides, please see--
           arab point of view:
           israeli point of view:
        \_ What is wrong with those Israelis? Opressing Palestinians,
           killing children for throwing rocks, etc.  What is wrong with our
           government that sends my tax dollars to them every year?
           \_ The Israelis did not start the fighting. The criminal
              \_ Basically why are the so f'ed up?
              PLO keeps inciting them. How do you think this nation
              would react if a bunch of thugs kept killing its citizens?
              Israelis have shown remarkable restraint despite numerous
              \_ that's pretty ridiculous.  "the fightning" has been going
                 on for thousands of years.  read the bible.  it's probably
                 the only true bit.
              \_ restraint? Almost all the deaths over the past three weeks
                 were Arab deaths. As of this morning, it was 7 Israelis
                 and 90+ Palestinians that died.
                    \_ The PLO started the killing. The Israelis are
                       defending themselves. Besides its all that dick
                       head Clintons' fault. He pushed the Israelis
                       and the PLO too far too fast in the hopes of
                       making himself look good. Its not our place to
                       force other nations to the peace table.
                 \_ This is deliberate. The Israelis cannot exchange one
                    life for another given the population disparities.
        \_ what is the intent of your question? is it to incite thought
           or comments? it does a pretty poor job. if you're just looking
           for an answer, the answer is "no." -ali
           \_ why do you appear to be offended ali? It's just a naive
              question coming from a stupid ignorameous.
              \_ or a troll.
           \_ I find it hard to understand why these people feel they
              need to resort to such actions. Do they think that they
              can be violent without inciting a response? What is it
                    \_ Several religions are notably peaceful: Hinduism,
                       Buddhism, Quaker(ism?). Of these only hindus are
                       willing to take up arms in *extereme* cases.
              about that religion that makes people behave in the most
              irrational ways?
              \_ Because they are completely f'ed up.
              \_ let me assume that by "that relgion" you mean "the
                 arab religion" in which case i would have to reply
                 with "you fucking imbecile. learn some culture before
                 you decide you have an opinion about something," thus
                 swiftly dismissing the discussion. -ali
                 \_ He means Islam.  Most arabs are also Muslims.  Don't
                    be a greater idiot than usual ali.
                    \_ which is even worse. he's saying that the act
                       was incited by religion. that's bullshit. i think
                       culture in general had a lot more to do with it.
                       if he wants to say "religion has a greater influence
                       in their culture than anything else" then i'll still
                       have to call him an idiot. the implied causality
                       in his question is completely fatuous.
                       \_ I don't understand why these people act in the
                          manner that they do. My understanding is that
                          they are driven by the "will of god" (as they
                          percieve it), thus I conclude that thier religion
                          (if you can all it a religion) leads them to it.
                          There is also historical precedence for followers
                          that particular "religion" inciting conflicts where
                          it is unnecessary, the Moors in Spain, the Sultans
                          in India, etc.
                                \_ As opposed to the Christians who brought
                                   the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and
                                   numerous other atrocities in the name of
                                   their religion.
                                   \_ Um, as I recall the reformation
                                      corrected most of these problems.
                                      How come there hasn't been a similar
                                      move in islam?
                                      \_ To expect reformation from a
                                         people whose heritage includes
                                         murdering their prophets chosen
                                         successor is the height of stupidity.
                          \_ palestinians might be driven by the hopeless
                             desperation intrinsic in being systematically
                             oppressed and denied fundamental human rights.
                             think about it.
                             \_ NOT! The PLO is a bunch of murdering thugs.
                                They would be criminals whether or not they
                                were "oppressed". If you wish to speak about
                                oppressed people in the Middle East, only the
                                Israelis fall into that category.
                                \_ israel has violated numerous international
                                   human rights laws.  palestinian refugees
                                   don't even have the right to return.  look
                                   at the facts.  zionism is racism.
        Both the Palestinians and the Jews have a reasonable claim to the
        same piece of land. Because of various reasons, mostly religious,
        a significant minority of each party is not willing to consider
        the others position and is willing to resort to any provocation,
        including mass murder and terrorism, to advance their agenda.
        In such a situation, no peace is possible -ausman
                                   \_ Israel has reacted in the only
                                      fesiable way. If America was
                                      surrounded by enemies we would
                                      arm our borders and take enemy
                                      land to buffer our people as much
                                      as possible. Don't give me that
                                      human rights bs. Israel MPs did
                                      not order hits and bombings on
                                      civilian targets for terrorizing
                                      people into getting what they
                                      want. The PLO did that. They are
                                      criminals and those that stand
                                      with them are criminals also.
                                      \_ you sound like a brainwashed
                                            \_ Refute the argument you
                                               anti-semitic pig.
                                               \_ how does anti-semitism
                                               fit into this?  it's anti-
                                         \_ you sound like a brainwashed
                                            Hamas idiot.
                                            \_ I believe that the terms
                                               "brainwashed" and "idiot"
                                               are superflous when used
                                               to refer to the Hamas.
                                               Membership to that elite
                                               organization requires a
                                               level of mental capacity
                                               which is rarely seen in
                                               most humans (at least ones
                                               that are born with a brain).
                 \_ No, it's religion in general. All religions are about
                    equally fucked up. The jews and their state, the
                    Muslims and their jihad, the Mormons with their preaching/
                    converting, the Christians with their Crusades.
                    \_ There are several religions which are peaceful.
                       Hindus, Buddhists, Quakers.
                       \_ Hindus have a reputation for fighting. Well, India
                          does, to say the least. Put three hindus in a room
                          and you get three points of view.
                          \_ Disagreement is different than resorting to
                             violence. Hindus are extremely risk averse,
                             and will chose to take up arms only if all
                             other options have failed.
                    \_ Religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded
                       people who need strength in numbers.
                       \_ If you believe this, you do not understand
                          religion. Read a book by Joseph Campbell and
                          perhaps you will understand. Oops, I forgot
                          you and your WWF brothers don't know how to
                          \_ I am very well read in Joseph Campbell.
                             Jesse may or may not have good reasons for
                             his belief, but the idea itself is sound.
                             \_ How can it possibly be sound? Please
                                \_ Let's take religions that define a god.
                                   None of these gods exists as described.
                                   \_ What Campbell books have you read?
                                      I'm not sure how you arrived at
                                      this conclusion, but you have not
                                      understood eastern religions at
                                      all, specifically hinduism. In
                                      hinduism God is defined as
                                      all that is. Only God exists,
                                      all else is just an aspect of
                                      \_ Arguing about hinduism and many
                                         Eastern religions can get very
                                         hairy (many are more philosophies
                                         than religions), and becomes
                                         distracting from the core
                                         When we talk about traditional
                                         Christianity, the notion that
                                         the Christian God does not exist
                                         is much more self-evident.
                                         \_ From my readings of christian
                                            texts written by christian
                                            saints, the concept of God
                                            is similar to that of many
                                            eastern religions. I think
                                            that perhaps the traditional
                                            Catholic or Protestant view
                                            of God may be incomplete
                                            \_ From my reading of the Bible,
                                               the Christian God is an
                                               entity as well as a concept.
                                               This entity does not exist.
                                               \_ I admit that I have not
                                                  read the bibile in its
                                                  entirity. Perhaps the
                                                  entity as described
                                                  there in does not exist.
                                                  But the original post
                                                  does not specify a
                                                  Christian God.
                                                  \_ Is it not safe to assume
                                                     that Jesse Ventura is
                                                     speaking of, for the
                                                     most part, Christians?
                                                     I didn't read the whole
                                                     Bible either; it's
                                                     pretty clear after a
                                                     few chapters, though,
                                                     that the Christian God is
                                                     put forth not only as a
                                                     concept but an entity.
        \_ The US isn't going to nuke anyone ever again.  The political
           fallout just ain't worth it.
           \_ This is a policy started by Truman. He was too scared to
              use the bomb that he hampered his generals in Korea from
              decisively winning that conflict leading to the diminished
              usefulness of our most powerful weapons.
              \_ Are you intentionally being a complete idiot?  You might
                 as well have said, the unfortunately outcome of WWII lead
                 to the termination of Auschwitz as the most powerful
                 killing machine the world has ever seen.  Follow that by,
                 can we just release biological weapons over the general
                 vaccinity of the middle east?  I'll bet you'd like to
                 torture POW's, too.
                 \_ You misunderstand my point. Why should we have weapons
                    if we are too afraid to use them?
                    \_ We SHOULDN'T HAVE NUKES!
                       \_ I totally agree. We should replace our tactical
                          nukes with space based weapons platforms. Big
                          Guns in the Sky that can defend America's
                          freedom from her enemies whereever they be.
        \_ If you play Civilization III, you'll realize the precedence
           of power in different civilizations:
            military units < religion < mass media < lawyers + injunctions
           To advance in civilization, you must research research research.
           As you approach industrialization and information revolution,
           you need units that are more deadly than the previous era but
           at the same time pose less physical threat. Religion served
           well as a weapon, but that era is over.
           \_ lol! Civilization III does not exist yet.  It's Civ: CTP.
2000/10/13-15 [Reference/Religion] UID:19471 Activity:very high
10/13   Does the term Arab apply to all the middle eastern people? Or is
        it more specific or more generic than that? Does it imply religion
        (e.g. Muslim) in which case includes most of the middle eastern
        countries EXCEPT Israel?
        \_ arab is not synonymous with middle eastern.  nope, not at all.
           many countries which aren't in the middle east have substantial
           arab populations, such as much of northern africa.
           it has nothing to do with religion-- there are muslim arabs,
           christian arabs, jewish arabs, atheist arabs, whatever.
           i think irani people don't consider themselves arab, or something
           like that.
           \_ You're mostly right. Most Iranians (not Irani, but who cares?)
              consider themselves "Persians", but there are also Iranian
              Arabs. Mostly from the south, where the oil is. There is
              tension between Persian and Arab Iranians. House of Kabab is
              owned by an Arab Iranian, but he considers himself Arab first.
              Arabs usually speak Arabic, so that's an easy way to tell.
              Afghans and Iranians don't speak Arabic (as their first tongue),
              and they don't consider themselves Arabs.
           \_ As far as I'm concerned, Israelis == Arabs.
              But I'm a stupid 'Merican so hey.
              \_ yah they are all just a binch of camel jockey sand niggers
                 anyway right?  Fucking idiot.
                \_ Cool it jewboy. It's just some Hatfields + McCoys shit.
                        and the way all them nationalistic fundamentalists
                        act, man, it's more like "sand _honkeys._"
                        Israelis == Arabs == Bible-beatin' Southerners.
                        troll troll troll troll!
                        \_ hey look at the cute little oriental girl!
        \_ Ali AlabedAlafaelMohammedAhalaha Rahimi, you wanna answer this?
              \_ what about the Iraqians?
                 \_ What about them? Shitheads lead by So-dam Insane.
           Arab (n): An Arabic-speaking gentile-ass who lives in Arabia or
                    \_ so what about the Iranis or the Saudians? How they
                       differ from Israelians? More moderate than the Jordani?
        \_ Sorry to inject reality into this discussion, but:
           Arab (n): An Arabic-speaking person who lives in Arabia or
                     North Africa
           (Therefore not Israeli).  -tom
           \_ As usual, you are an idiot. Tell the Syrians and Iraqis that
              they are not Arabs for me.
                \_ changing "person" to "jewass" or "gentile-ass" is
                   juvenile and boring.  -tom
                \_ defining Arab, as if it needed defining, is juvenile
                   and boring.  The song "Ha" is Juvenile and boring.
                   But "gentile-ass", while juvenile, is not boring. ha!
                \_ They are not Arabs, they are camel jockeys or sand
                   n*grs (whichever racial slur you prefer)
        \_ Regardless nationalistic fundamentalists are the same the world
           over, they freakin' SUCK ASS.
        \_ muslims are not synonmous with arab btw
           \_ E.g. Malaysia and Indonesia are Islamic SE Asian countries.
        \_ note how there are no muslim 1st world countries.  wonder if
           it's mutually exclusive
           \_ Note that there are no Indian 1st world countries.  wonder if
              it's mutually exclusive
           \_ To build a 1st world nation requires intelligence, rationality,
              tolerance, humanity etc. These attributes are completely
              orthogonal to the muslim nature.
              \_ What about the era of Persia?  It was more "1st world" than
                 Europe at that time.
                 \_ They were Persians, not (as you might say), dirty Arabs.
                 \_ yeah, before Islam took over and ruined it
                 \_ What about it? Alexander the Great conqured Persia,
                    and then the Romans and later on the Russians. Face
                    it, the height of Muslim glory came during Akbar's
                    reign in India. Even then, he entrusted the daily
                    affairs of empire to a Hindu, because he felt (and
                    stated in writing) that no muslim could ever posses
                    the requisite intelligence to run an empire.
                    \_ Your lack of historical knowledge is disturbing.
                       The Arab empires during the "Dark Ages" in Europe
                       were larger, more civilized, and longer lasting
                       than any Christian empire.
                       \_ Perhaps in the years between the fall of the
                          eastern empire and the beginning of the
                          renasiance arab nations were better organized
                          than european ones, but only marginally so.
                          Even during the height of thier power, muslim
                          rulers outside of india ran countries in which
                                 \_ Does this qualifier makes any difference?
                          the average citizen was quite poor and had little
                          freedom.  They can hardly be considered 1st world
                          as superior civilizations existed in non-muslim
                          dominated parts of the the world at the same time.
        \_ Alexander never conquered Russia and such country did not even
        exist yet. A collection of feudal city states that later united as
        Kievan Rus' more or less has been paying off the Mongols to leave
        them alone for 300 years but as the Kievan Rus' government seat was
        in Kiev, you could just as well argue that it was actually the
        ancient Ukraine. There was neither Moscow (only 850 years old) nor
        St.Petersbourgh (negligiable age). Few of those cities are now in
        Russia, but they were never a capital of any country by such name.
        What I believe to be the oldest of the bunch, called Novgorod was
        actually a democracy. (strangely, it means "new town", not to be
        confused with my hometown Nizniy Novgorod ( "lower new town" ) that
        was build later than this, but still before Moscow. Could you have
        ment Genghis Khan? The Mongols weren't much of conquerers, because
        they never could live in a town for more than a couple of days, but
                \_ "a couple of days" is enough time to wrap you in blankets
                   as stomp on it with horses as a token of honor.
        they obviously didn't lose any time. Slavs are supposed to be blond.
        All it really took to kicking them out was to stop mutual backstabbing
        that's all.                                     -muchandr
           \_   One day an old polish jew, living in Warsaw, has his last light
              bulb burn out. To get a new one he'll have to stand in line for
              two hours at the store (and they'll probably be out by the
              time he gets there), so he goes up to his attic and starts
              rummaging around for an old oil lamp he vaguely remembers seeing.
                He finds the old brass lamp in the bottom of a trunk that has
              seen better days. He starts to polish it and (poof!) a genie
              appears in cloud of smoke.
                "Hoho, Mortal!" says the genie, stretching and yawning, "For
              releasing me I will grant you three wishes."
                The old man thinks for a moment, and says, "I want Genghis
              Khan resurrected. I want him to re-unite his mongol hordes,
              march to the Polish border, and then decide he doesn't want
              the place and march back home."
                "No sooner said than done!" thunders the genie. "Your second
                "Ok. I want Genghis Khan resurrected. I want him to re-unite
              his mongol hordes, march to the Polish border, and then decide
              he doesn't want the place and march back home."
                "Hmmm. Well, all right. Your third wish?"
                "I want Genghis Khan resurrected. I want him to re-unite his--"
                "OK OK OK. Right. What's this business about Genghis Khan
              marching to Poland and turning around again?"
                The old man smiles. "He has to pass through Russia six times."
        \_ Every who lives in the Middle East is Middle Eastern, but Arabs and
        Israelis are Semitic and Persians are not. The former two could never
        find any chemical / biological warfare agets that worked on one but not
        the other, and not for the lack of trying...    -muchandr
        \_ John, I forgot I owed you an explanation on Czechs. The Czech
        design bureau is Tatra (they did do trucks, but are not Russian),
        the firm who hired them was the new Bugatti under Romano Artioli,
        and yes, correct again, they are currently buiding 18 cilinder
        monsters under Bugatti label for VW AG, whose Ferdinand Piech, by
        the weirdest fluke is the designer of Audi Quattro yet majority
        shareholder of Porshe and direct descendant of Ferry Porshe. Porshe
        had to finally part ways with the aircoled boxer 6 in 911, which was
        getting too hot and too noisy at three something liters displacement
        and switch to watercooling like the rest of the wold, so imagine
        their surprise when they found out that the Czech government Tatra
        limosines, that were absolutely silent is actually an aircooled 8 of
        some 4 or 5 liter displacement. That was probably the largest modern
        aircooled car engine. Very impressive. EB110 supercar was theirs, and
        the new ones you can find at I don't think
        VW would've dared a crack at Bugatti themselves. They were already
        scared shitless of having to do Bentleys and Lamborginis ...

2000/10/1 [Reference/Religion] UID:19384 Activity:nil
10/01   Muslims attacked by Jews again. You can't trust those zionist
2000/9/28 [Reference/Religion] UID:19354 Activity:nil
9/27    mmtd formating(sic) god was here.
2000/9/28 [Reference/Religion] UID:19351 Activity:nil
9/27    motd formating god was here.
2000/6/5-6 [Reference/Religion] UID:18419 Activity:high
        Somebody who knows more about physics comment on this.  I checked
        Dr Raymond Chiao here at UCB and he seems legit.  But I haven't
        found any info on Dr. Lijun Wang supposedly from Princenton.  Is it
        possible that the speed of light has finally been broken???!
        \_ I know Raymond Chiao, he's christian and did send signals faster
        than speed of light.
                \_ What does his religion have to do with the speed of light?
                   \_ If God thinks you're a righteous dude, he loosens up
                      and lets you break the laws of physics every now and
                      \_ Not really. Some things can travel much faster
                         than the speed of light.  Gravitational forces
                         are instantaneous over large distances.
                      \_ God is the coolest dude around.
                   \_ Christians always tell the truth. -- A Christian
                      \_ yeah, christians said the world was flat too.
                        \_ and u suckers fell for it.
                   \_ Xtians do all the real discoveries, while atheist just
                    cheat on their wives - Dr. laura
        \_ The idea here is that the pulse shape is reconstructed on the other
        end of the chamber such that it seems to coexist with the pulse
        entering the chamber, thus giving the impression that it's travelling
        faster than the speed of light.  However, it's possible that the
        leading edge of the pulse is entering the chamber earlier in
        time than the perceived pulse location.  Thus, it's still impossible
        to transmit information faster than c... ie.,laws of physics still
        \_ The physics is beyond me, but wouldn't the experiment have taken
           that possibility into account?  Can't wait for a 5 minute trip to
           another star....
        \_ Bah. die-hard einsteinians make more and more twisted theories.
           to make up for when it looks like they are not right.
           For example, "xyz doesnt go faster than light. 'SPACE' contracts".
           And yet they also say there's no such thing as 'space'.
           After a while, they get to sounding more like flat-earth apologists.
           Or Ptolmeic thinkers. Retrograde!
2000/3/26 [Reference/Religion] UID:17856 Activity:low
        \_ "Patient refused treatment."  Oh my God!
2000/2/26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Religion] UID:17634 Activity:very high
2/25    Another victory for the stupid religious conservatives:,2107,500173441-500224534-501074649-0,00.html
        \_ So people who don't agree with you are stupid, eh?  Sigh.
        \_ Since when was non-marital sex a crime?
        \_ bad link. The only "religious conservative" type one I can find
2000/1/20 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/Gay, Reference/Religion] UID:17275 Activity:low
1/19    A related question to the homo marrieages/Christian thread below.
        A while back there was a contraversial play where Jesus had sex
        with all 12 of his disciples. You know, during the last supper.
        It was a big gay orgy. Anybody remember the name of the play?
        \_ I remember there was a big discussion about Jesus and John
           as lovers.
1999/12/28-29 [Reference/Religion] UID:17109 Activity:moderate 61%like:18514
12/28   [Motd summarised for your convenience]  -motd summary god (tom)
        \_ Not tom you fuckwit.  Tom doesn't do summaries.  He wipes.
           "(tom)" removed.  Add your own comments, don't change mine.
                        -motd summary god (not tom)
1999/11/25-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Reference/Religion] UID:16953 Activity:high
11/25   Today I give thanks that I am not a h0zer.
        \_ It's TG and you're writing on the motd.  Thus, you are a h0zer.
           And a lamer as well.
           \_ "Lest he without sin cast the first stone...."
           \_ "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...."
                \_ Duh, gee whiz you're clever.  I never claimed not to be a
                   h0zer or lamer.  I also didn't go on the motd to proclaim
                   it.  Also, you're misquoting the Bible.  If you're going to
                   bother quoting garbage at least quote it properly.
                   \_ Who said it was a quote from the Bible, lamer?
                        \_ Of course it's a Bible quote.  Don't even try to
                           pretend you didn't fuck up the Bible quote.  Don't
                           try to go there.  This isn't 3rd grade anymore.
        \_ Today I give thanks that my account has not been sorried.

all pre-tg crap removed.
                \_ Tom?
1999/9/22-24 [Reference/Religion] UID:16569 Activity:high
        \_ It looks like a troll and smells like a troll. Does anybody know if
           it's legit?
           \_ Does anyone even THINK it's legit?  Duh!  It's a GeoCities site!
1999/7/13 [Reference/Religion] UID:16118 Activity:kinda low
        \_ "Polls consistently show that at least 44% of Americans believe
           God created life as described in Genesis: Over the course of six
           days, He separated day from night and created every species of
           life, culminating with Adam and Eve.
           A roughly equal percentage accept evolution but think God had
           a hand in guiding it. Only about 10% believe in strict evolution,
           unaided by external forces."  God bless democracy.
           \_ Stupidity regarding science/religion has nothing to do with
              democracy.  Where'd you get that idea from?  I don't deny that
              the average citizen is a complete dolt, but I don't see where
              democracy has anything to do with it.  Doltishness is an equal
              opportunity politically neutral condition.
           \_ According to Plato (and many agree with him), democracy is the
              second worst form of government (the worst being tyranny).
              Furthermore, the United States is not a democracy, but an
              oligarchy. -- ilyas
              \_ We're supposedly a republic, not an oligarchy. --dim
                \_ Right. -- ilyas
1999/1/11 [Reference/Religion] UID:15204 Activity:moderate
1/10 - tpc
        \_ how is this interesting or informative?
                \_ yeah that's right, sexless geeks are a dime a dozen
                   around here, we don't need to see more. - tpc

as if most people haven't already been sent that assinine questionnaire
36 times.
\_ Right. But for AI people, it IS interesting, as an indication of a possible
   common(not neccessarily 100%)  algorithm for human data storage.
        \_ get a fucking clue.
        \_ Look asshole. If you're going to delete something, delete it all
           the way. Now I am curious about the questionniare.
        \_ it was probably that stupid "put names of people you know on
           lines 1-4, and then yer mom's bra size on line 5, the length of
           your dick on line 6" etc.  -tom
1998/12/20 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Reference/Religion] UID:15133 Activity:high
12/20   Our president has been impeached.  God help us all.
        I don't know what we're gonna do without him.  After all,
        he DOES run the country.  He said so.
        \_ God intended to have him impeached.  Let that be a
           lesson for all you sinners out there.
        \_ Those of us across the pond are looking at passing ourselves off as
           Canadian again... -John
1998/11/14-16 [Reference/Military, Reference/Religion] UID:14957 Activity:moderate
11/13   Hello UN Weapons inspector. Thanks for not inspecting us in the past
        couple of days, giving us ample time to hide our weapons of mass
        destruction. Feel free to inspect us now. Thanks.
        \_ hello again UN Weapons inspectors. I'm so glad you fell for this
           crap for a third time. Nobody thought you would.
           Now would you might bending over just a *little* more?
                \_ Lucky Inspectors, bending over
        \_ There seems to be a lot of backslash against Muslim countries and
           its leadership. Muslim is a good religion and you guys should have
           more respect for its belief.                            -muslim #1
                \_ This guy isn't Muslim, just a fake. If he was Muslim,
                   he would have said "Islam is a good religion."
                \_ No, just against the ones that blow up airplanes and
                   eat babies and burn US flags.  We like bombing non-muslim
                   countries who do that also, nothing personal.  -John
1998/10/6-7 [Reference/Religion] UID:14741 Activity:kinda low
        You are too brainwashed to know Nature's Time Cube
        \_ I want to win the $1,000 prize -- four cesium clocks and four
           Iridium phones should do.
1998/9/21-22 [Reference/Religion] UID:14644 Activity:moderate
9/21    update your life entries - The Life God
        \_ I challenge the life god to a cage fight.  My penis is bigger.
        \_ huh?
           \_ /usr/local/csua/pub/life, ye who is only but a babe
              \_ alas, ye phat and greeeeeeeeeasy citizens,
                 /csua/pub/life is a shorter yet sufficient path.
                 trainest thou harder.  thy fu is as the gossamer
                 \_ hey, my fu is special.
                    \_ Your fu is girly fu
1998/8/26 [Computer/SW/Unix, Reference/Religion] UID:14517 Activity:kinda low
8/26    What the hell is going on with the SPAM!?
        Either finger is open, or there's some sellout has given our logins
        to some religious freak group on the net...
        \_ apparently the return address is real, BOMBS AWAY!!!!
        \_ Actually, I sold your login to the religious freak groups in hopes
           of raising some extra cash (money's been a little tight lately,
           since yermom doesn't have the drawing power she used to . . . )
                \_ Rumor has it that she's gone in for that new pussy
                   tightening surgery.  Only time will tell.
1998/8/11 [Reference/Religion] UID:14442 Activity:nil
8/7     More de-trollification.
        \_ trollification?  Our english department is so good that we have
           earned the god given right to make up our own words.
           \_ Trollification is a perfectly cromulent word. - tpc
                \_ i think you mean to say promulent.
           \_ ...and we can't hyphenate "god-given" when using it
              as an adjective?
1998/7/22-24 [Reference/Religion] UID:14367 Activity:high
7/20    Boredcast Message from soda!kaychng (ttyPr) at 19:29 ...

        by the way i'm not racist...
        i eat out my old roomate who's white...
        well actually he's jews but he's the coolest
        guy I have never met.
        \_ I ate a Chinese Orthodox Jew once.. Mmm.. Jewtastic...
1998/6/18-19 [Reference/Religion] UID:14224 Activity:high
6/16    Oh my god mlee is gay!!!
        \_ nope. he is a bi.
          \_ or just a freak
           \_ a bi?  i thought he was THE bi.
        \_ well gee, duh
                \_ oh my god cmlee is a twink
1998/3/2-3 [Reference/Religion] UID:13742 Activity:very high
3/01    Go see Dark City. Rocks.        -muchandr
        \_ I can change reality, but I can't make myself a body nor can I
           make myself not need a body. I need to find Descartes first.
        \_ It was interesting, I'll give you that.  But I'm glad I didn't
           pay any money to see it.
        \_ My Holy Bible is far more educational and life affirming.
        \_ My Holy Bible is far more educational and life affirming.
           |_ Please don't deface other people's comments the way my "Holy
              Bible" was changed to "asshole".  If you aren't interested in
              eternal salvation, that's your business, but it's highly
              inappropriate and uncalled for to mangled my comments like that.
              I've never done anything to hurt you.
                  \_sign yer post
        \_ My copy of Dianetics is far more educational and life affirming.
        \_ My asshole is far more educational and life affirming.
1996/2/20 [Reference/Religion] UID:31827 Activity:nil
2/20    All are commanded to OBEY the gospel:

        2 Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
                 and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

        1 Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house
         of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them
         that obey not the gospel of God?

         How does one OBEY the death, burial, and ressurection?

         - simple.. no one can except Christ who is God,
          thus, just obtain God's life and you
          will have the capacity to do so. - turin

        I AM SATAN, FEAR ME!!!! -- 666
         - Or you can accept freewill and responsibility for your
           own actions, resist brainwashing, and get on with
           your life.
          KA - Fong's peaceful life in the country is soon disrupted when the
          Eight Demon Swordsmen start killing, crippling, and then kidnap Fong's
          wife. He takes up his sword again, and the slaughter begins. More of
          the same [as in One-Armed Swordsman].[A
2022/06/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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