Reference Military - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/06/30 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/6/2-3 [Reference/Military] UID:30559 Activity:very high
6/2     I don't understand the military at all. What's the difference
        between the army, marine, ranger, green beret, and all these other
        units? When/how are they deployed, used, etc?
        \_ One last bit on the rangers before this gets deleted:  when we
           nabbed noriega, the rangers were *not* assigned to take the airport
           (some other branch did it) and they were *really* pissed off about
           it.  Pissed off enough that it leaked to the public.  ;-)
        \_ Cliffs notes:
           Army:  Biggest (tanks, APCs, infantry, engineers)
             Army Special Forces:  Green Berets, Rangers
           Navy:  Ships
           Air Force:  Planes
           Marines:  Smaller than Army, amphibious assaults
           \_ Marines are a part of the Navy.  Another way of looking at it:
              \_ Marines are quite distinct from Navy.  Call a jarhead a sailor
                 and he'll clock you.  They're often transported on Navy
                 vessels, however.
              Army: You learn to hide behind bushes
              Navy: You learn sensors, guidance systems, electronics, reactors
              Air: You learn missiles, radar, planes/jets
              Marines: You learn to kill people
              Rangers/Green Berets/Seals/etc: You learn to kill people well
              \_ ok, so what's the difference between the rangers, berets,
                 the seals? What can one do well that the other can't?
                 What do they specialize and what/who determines which unit
                 is used?
                 \_ There are lots of Rangers.  There are fewer Green Berets.
                    There are even fewer SEALs.
                 \_ More specifically, SEALs specialize in REALLY
                    amphibious attacks.  (Swimming into places carring
                    gear).  Rangers and Green Berets (I think) specilize
                    inair drops.  Rangers can go on to become Green Berets
                    and Delta Force.  They all specialize in tight, quick
                    operations, and killing a whole lot of people.
                 \_ SEALs are Navy. Green Berets are Army. Rangers are also
                    Army. Green Berets are essentially commandos; Rangers
                    are closer to what infantry does. There's also Army's Delta
                    Force, which does counterterrorism ops.
                    \_ SEALS, Rangers, Army Special Forces (aka Green Berets)
                       fall under the U.S. Special Operations Command. Up
                       until recently the Marines were not a part of this.
                       Each unit has their strengths and weaknesses. OP needs
                       to be more specific. [formatd]
                 \_ Since none of you apparently has a clue what the Rangers
                    do, their one true specialty is doing air drops on enemy
                    aiports and taking them over so we can use them.  They
                    obviously do lots of other stuff as well and are better
                    trained and have higher standards than regular infantry
                    but they're generally younger than the special forces guys
                    in the GB and most SEALs, thus less experienced.  I still
                    wouldn't want to fight a regular army infantry in an
                    alley because they'll kill you just a dead, they'll just
                    do it louder and you might see it coming.  Someone
                    mentioned Delta Force which is an anti-terrorist hit
                    squad trained to do things like kill all the terrorists
                    that took over a plane without killing any hostages.
                    \_ 1SOF-D defers to SEALs DEVGRU for maritime CT. They
                       both do VIP protection also.
                    \_ Green Beret's are used a lot as teachers. Think "School
                       of the America's". Rangers, elite fighting force, but
                       not considered as elite as green beret's. Seals, the
                       elite amphibious fighting force of the navy - may be
                       the best conditioned of all (carrying logs in sand,
                       lots of swimming, etc). Marines, they pave the way
                       for the army - tough hombres. Delta Force, elite-of-
                       the-elite (weren't they a secret force for a while?)
                       for special missions. Army, well, think G.I. Joe.
                       \_ don't they still deny the Delta Force's existence?
                          \_ No, they just deny Lou Gossett Jr.'s existence.
        \_ The navy has a very large budget compared to the rest because they
           have pretty insane toys.  They also have lots of bin software from
           3rd party peepz that is mostly unchecked for sec. holes.
        \_ Army: Specializing in land warfare.
             Green Berets: Generic Army special forces term
             Rangers: Long range recon/patrol and air drops. "Quick, light"
                rapid deploy infantry.
             Delta: Special covert ops. Close-combat specialists.
           Navy: Specialization in blue/green water operations.
             Marines: Initially used for sea/harbor/base ops (capture/security).
                Expanded duty as "light, fast" deploy units. Fewer heavy pieces
                (tanks/artillery) than Army.
               Force Recon: Prep landings for Marines. Minor special ops.
             SEALS: Special ops (Intel/Covert/Small ops), specialization in sea
                based ops.
           Air Force: Specialization in air operations.
             Pararescuemen: Land recovery and rescue experts
             Combat Controllers: Coordinate air ops for Rangers/Marines.
           Coast Guard: Specialization in brown water operations (part of the
              Dept. of Transportation).
             Swimmers: Sea rescue experts
             \_ Accountants: give Afghan soldiers $100 bills to clear caves.
2004/5/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Military] UID:30464 Activity:high
5/27    vote to lift the Assault weapons ban
        \_ Or, alternately, to extend it.
           \_ Why extend it?  In what way does it help? -- ilyas
              \_ I think poster is pointing that it could go either way.
                 half-empty versus half-full.
                 \_ I was just curious what the arguments are for extending the
                    ban, now that it's been in effect for a while, and we are
                    in a position to see how well it did. -- ilyas
2004/5/15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30238 Activity:very high
5/15    This has been bugging me for a while.  Is there a statute of
        limitations on war crimes?  I'm guessing not.  So why are we in the
        process of electing Kerry, a self proclaimed war criminal, instead
        of investigating his crimes and those of his unit and prosecuting?
        \_ pathetic troll.
           \_ always easier to point the troll finger than answer the question.
              if it was Bush who publicly stated he had committed war crimes,
              you and the media would be all over it.  you don't even have to
              admit it.  it's clear.  kerry is a war criminal.  he has said so
              in public.  and you are going to vote for this bastard.  nice.
        \_ Kerry is not a self proclaimed war criminal:
           Kerry says he committed "atrocities" not war crimes. Do you
           think that firing your .50 cal in combat and burning houses on
           a search and destroy mission is a war crime?
        \_ So I am always curious about people like you. Why do you spread
           lies in an attempt to destroy a good mans character? Is there
           money in it for you? Do you make more than $250k/yr and fear
           a tax increase? I could understand that motivation, at least.
        \_ It's not a war crime unless you're fighting for a side that
           not only loses the war, but is taken over by the enemy.  Otherwise
           it's just a tragedy of war.
2004/5/10 [Reference/Military] UID:30140 Activity:very high
5/10    Now the Army Times has come out for Rumsfeld's resignation.
            \_ URL?
        \_ I was gonna say I find this ironic, but I guess it's not.  If
           Rummy takes the heat, the Army brass gets off cheap.
           \_ The army brass never much liked Rumsfeld.
              \_ The Army Times is more of a rank and file kind of
                 newspaper. 1/4 M read it, they can't all be brass.
                 Some vets read it, too.
2004/5/5 [Consumer/Audio, Reference/Military] UID:30017 Activity:nil
5/5     an MP3 player designed for an AK-47 ammo clip
        \_ What's the point if it doesn't ALSO hold ammo?
           \_ to spread peace and love.
              \_ AK-47s spread love all the time!  Lead, straight from my
                 heart to yours!
2004/4/30-5/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13512 Activity:moderate
4/30    Vietnam's Hero Still Grateful to Anti-War Americans
        "I would like to thank them," the 93-year-old veteran [Gen. Vo Giap]
        said on Friday of those Americans who opposed the war.
        \_ you know by now everyone knows that you are hiding freeper posts
           by using the ip address.
        \_ I would thank them too, cuz it stopped a senseless war at first
           \_ Even Yoda can speak better than this and he's just a sock
              puppet on steroids.
2004/4/14-15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13205 Activity:high
4/14    A hospital official in Fallujah claims many of the 600 victims who've
        died in the weeklong U.S. Marine crackdown in Fallujah were women,
        children and the elderly. But Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said an
        investigation of the dead will likely discover "95 percent of those
        were military age males." -April 11

        Just before dawn Wednesday, however, AC-130 Spectre gunships launched
        a devastating punitive raid over a six-block area around where the
        convoy was attacked, firing dozens of artillery shells that shook the
        city and lit up the sky. Marine officials said the area was virtually
        destroyed and that no further insurgent activity had been seen there.
        -April 14
        \_ Why are women and the elderly exempt? Kids, too, if they are
           gonna shoot (e.g. during the Iran-Iraq conflicts).
           \_ Basically Al Jazeera shows injured/dead babies on TV because
              they think the U.S. can offer no defense.  The idea is similar
              with women, children, and old people.

        Just before dawn Wednesday, however, AC-130 Spectre gunships launched
        a devastating punitive raid over a six-block area around where the
        convoy was attacked, firing dozens of artillery shells that shook the
        city and lit up the sky. Marine officials said the area was virtually
        destroyed and that no further insurgent activity had been seen there.
        -April 14
2004/4/12-13 [Reference/Military] UID:13163 Activity:nil
4/12    Even baboons learn to solve conflicts through diplomacy rather
        than war:
        \_ until another band of baboons comes along and kicks their ass.
           \_ Huh huh huh.  Hey Beavis, pull my finger.
        \_ only within their troop, they do battle other troops
        \_ They've also mastered the art of in-tribe psych warfare and will
           purposely inflict stress on lower ranking members.  You know:
           kind of like how your boss gives you stoopid documentation
           assignments when the brass chews him out.
2004/4/9-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13118 Activity:nil
4/9     War is hell:
        \_ no it's not, it's like walking in the park!
2004/4/7-8 [Reference/Military] UID:13074 Activity:kinda low
4/7     I own some property out in the country.  I would like to build a small
        but safe outdoor gun range (pistols, low powered rifles) as cheaply as
        possible, but I have no idea how to go about this.  Can anyone offer
        any serious advice or refer me to a source where I can figure out how
        to start?  TIA.
        \_ huh? we shoot out in the open at chipmonks, rocks cans,
        \_ get fence.  put tin cans on fence.  shoot tin cans.  get neighbor
           to restock fence while you continue shooting.
           \_ During the summer, that's a potential fire hazard.  Also, bullets
              have this tendency to keep on going, so this solution is, well,
              kind of stupid.  If this was what I was looking for, I wouldn't
              be asking for help.  Thanks for the suggestion, I think.
              \_ Fires?  Fresh farm land.  Bullets and physics?  Fewer
                 neighbors = more quiet.  You don't belong out in the country.
                 Stay in the city.
       \_ My uncle has an indoor range in his basement, but you could
          use the same concept ... he just had a big mound of dirt behind
          the target.  Outdoors you might have to occasionally do some
          maintenance to keep the mound high, but it works.  No richochets
          or bullets flying through walls or anything.
2004/4/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13055 Activity:high
4/7     War President:
        \_ the fact that there are duplicate photos seems to diminish the point
           a bit
        \_ Ooh!  Can you do the same thing with the 9/11 families?
           \_ it hasn't been proven yet that 9/11 was Bush's fault.
2004/4/2-3 [Reference/Military] UID:12992 Activity:nil
4/2     Step right up, Bush supporters. Great Network Engineering
        job in Iraq:
        \_ An acquaintance of a friend is doing something like this.  He'll
           pull down $250k/year...  If he survives.
        \_ If I had enough Cisco I'd apply.  You know what those 4 ex-special
           forces guys were doing in Iraq before they got butchered?  Getting
           a shit load of money to be there.  You know what the 1000s of others
           in their position are doing right now?  Getting a shit load of money
           to be there.  Their odds are only slightly worse than your odds
           walking down the street in Oakland at night and you don't make as
           \_ Those guys were offered $60K for 3 months of work. One of them,
              the Navy SEAL, was on Combat Missions and has his own series
              of workout videos, his own personal training company for stars.
           \_ I also don't walk around Oakland at night.
              \_ Wuss.  you should be fine with an AK-47 and a flak jacket.
                 \_ Yes, if only those four Americans had guns on their
                    persons at the time, all of this could have been avoided,
                    because we *all know* that if everyone had guns there
                    would be no crime.
                    \_ Lisa: "I told you capital punishment wasn't a deterrent."
                    \_ You have won the "Best Retort of the Day" award.
                       \_ not really. that's just old rehash and red herring.
                    \_ If those 4 guys were armed the same in Oakland they'd
                       be ok at night.  They were simply inadequately armed
                       for the place they were in.  If they were in an APC or
                       even a military humvee instead of a civilian truck,
                       they'd be here today.  Hey, I know, I'll bet if all the
                       US military guys stomping around Iraq simply stopped
                       carrying weapons we'd lose fewer guys.  Right?  We know
                       (as you say) that having a weapon has no defensive use
                       or value, right?  The next time we invade a country we
                       should send girl scouts with cookies and daisies.  What
                       is your plan if someone breaks into your house?  Offer
                       them tea and ask them politely to not kill you or rape
                       your daughter?
                       \_ if everyone carries a gun at night in Oakland,
                          I would not dare to go there, cause I can't tell
                          who is the crook.  also, the bad dude may have
                          a bigger gun then me, even though most ladies
                          think my gun is big enough.
                                          \_ Even a .22 can kill, sometimes.
                          \_ if everyone carried a gun, they'd be a lot more
                             polite after an initial darwinian blood bath.
                             that you say anything about his gun being bigger
                             than your gun says you know nothing about guns.
                             i don't want to be shot by a dinky .22 anymore
                             than a big honking 44.  I can get killed by either
                             and even if i survive it's going to hurt like
                             a motherfucker.
2004/3/26-27 [Reference/Tax, Reference/Military] UID:12888 Activity:kinda low
3/26    After opening a new phone line, I have been using a calling card for
        long distance exclusively, but I also want to have a long distance
        carrier as a backup in case when the fone card's system fails.  Any
        long distance carrier that does not charge a monthly fee/tax/surcharge
        and is not exorbitantly expensive?
                   \_ I think you mean 'exorbitantly'.
                      \_ yeah thanks and corrected
        \_ don't worry...some long-distance provider will call you soon
           enough with a "courtesy call" and would love to be your
        \_ Why not just get a backup phone card?
           \_ Different type of systems.
        \_ or use 10-10 numbers for backups?  I was using for LD
           for 6 months because of their free deals, but then when they
           mis-billed a int'l call at $4/min I disabled LD on my phone, not
           worth the hassle.  Onesuite, and
        \_ I wanted exactly this.  SBC had some deal that's no-fee 5M-"/minute.
        \_ I wanted exactly this.  SBC had some deal that's no-fee 5/minute.
           Works for me.  --dbushong
2004/3/20-21 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12779 Activity:nil
3/19    Echoes of the Wild West in one man's border war
2004/3/17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12719 Activity:nil
        Rumsfeld disclaiming the use of immediate threat in the push for war
        ... and then being presented with a direct quote contradicting him.
            \_ (I thought that last part was obvious from the URL) -op
2004/3/8 [Reference/Military] UID:12560 Activity:nil
3/8     Someone forged the Master Sword from Zelda: A Link to the Past
        \_ yes there are lots of silly people with too much time on their
           hands walking around.  its an example of how incredibly efficient
           our society is that we can afford to have people do things like this
2004/2/20-21 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12338 Activity:kinda low
2/20    What France really said about WMD:
        AMANPOUR: Do you believe that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass
        destruction; for instance, chemical or biological weapons?

        PRESIDENT CHIRAC: Well, I don't know. I have no evidence to support
        that... It seems that there are no nuclear weapons - no nuclear weapons
        program. That is something that the inspectors seem to be sure of.

        As for weapons of mass destruction, bacteriological, biological,
        chemical, we don't know. And that is precisely what the
        inspectors' mandate is all about. But rushing into war, rushing
        into battle today is clearly a disproportionate response."
        \_ You and your damn facts!
        \_ "They've got bigger dicks?  BOMB THEM!" --GC
        \_ You mean France only made a single statement about WMD's?  Wow,
           why'd they sign up for 1441 then?
           \_ If he wants to cherry pick to make his points, he can do that.
              He isn't convincing anyone but himself and preaching to the
              choir, but I'm sure it makes him feel good and that's what this
              is all about, right?  Feeling good?
              \_ Y'know what?  Our claim regarding noncomplience with
                 Resolution 1441 has yet to be vindicated.  1441 said to
                 make full disclosure and allow inspectors in.  They made
                 their disclosure and let inspectors in.  We said their
                 disclosure wasn't full.  We have yet to prove ourselves
                 \_ Full disclosure isn't possible anymore since the Iraqis
                    claim they destroyed tons of documents and materials.  You
                    have the whole thing backwards.  We never had to prove
                    1441, it was a requirement for the other side.
                    \_ Reread what I said.  We (The U.S.) claimed that we
                       were right to go in because the actions taken by Iraq
                       hadn't brought them into compliance.  Apparently, as
                       we haven't found evidence to the contrary, they were
                       as much in compliance as possible.  I'm not challenging
                       the resolution.  I'm challenging our unilateral claim
                       that they were still in breach of it. -- And wait a
                       minute..  Reread what you said.  "They claimed they had
                       destroyed ... materials."  So...  They claimed they
                       destroyed it as per 1441, and ... the materials aren't
                       there.  Hrm...  Whose side are you arguing?
               \_ You are the one who has repeatedly claimed that France
                  believed Iraq was in possesion of WMD in spite of
                  overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I have repeatedly
                  asked for proof of your claim and you cannot come up
                  with one shred of evidence. Your position is laughable.
                        That's not what yermom told me! _/
                  So I guess yes, laughing at you makes me feel good.
                  Do you still call them Freedom Fries?
            \_ 1441 was sold to the UN members as a way of forcing Iraq
               to allow weapon's inspectors in. And it worked. It was not
               sold as authorizing a war against Iraq. Remember the US
               tried to go back to the UN and get another authorization
               and gave up once it became clear that France, Russia and
               Germany were all against it? Go read 1441. It warns Iraq
               of "serious consequences" but nothing else. It also
               affirms Iraq's territorial soveriegnty.
              \_ serious consequence like France, Germany loosing their
                 oil contract bribes from Oil for food programs?
                 \_ boo hoo!  those darn germans and french are getting
                    all the contracts.  The only ones who should get
                    contracts from dictators are us!  Like how we got
                    all the weapons and oil contracts from Suharto while
                    all the weapons and oil contracts with Suharto when
                    he was butchering the East Timorese!  The Germans and
                    that we can be te ones to get the oil contracts!
                    Only we can have good motives, the Germans and French
                    can only have ulterior motives!
                    French are not playing fair!  Let's invade Iraq so
                    that we can get our oil contracts!  Only we can have
                    good motives, the Germans and French can only have
                    ulterior motives!
2022/06/30 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/2/6-7 [Reference/Military] UID:12146 Activity:high
2/6     Guns.
        \_ Are they good, or are they wack?
           \_ Aight?
           \_ Good?  Bad?  I'm the one with the gun
        \_ Guns:  I don't support the right to own automatic firearms or
           munitions, but I support the right to sport shooting and
           intelligent implementation of personal pistol ownership (i.e.,
           trigger-locks, registration, and deep background checks). On a
           purely personal note, I enjoyed shooting down a range, but I
           don't want a gun in my house; hey, I enjoyed bungie-jumping, but
           I'm not going to put a 150' pit in my house, either.
           \_ You are a wuss who is unwilling to defend constitutionally
              protected rights.
              \_ Damn straight. I want a gun to keep the King of England
                 from barging into my house.
                 \_ King of England?
                    \_ Charles will soon have this title. You want him in
                       *your* house?
              \_ You didn't include enough "Black helicopters! Black
                 helicopters!" to get me excited.
                 \_ Black helicopters are not the problem. Big gub'mint-luvin'
                    Berkeley libs are the problem.
                    \_ You're almost there... a few more and you might have
                       a real troll going!
        \_ Repeating: Target Masters in Milpitas offers a wide variety of
           guns to test on their range.  Worth the trip:
        \_ Motd Moral Dilemma of the Month:  A friend of mine has a roommate
           who is exhibiting strong signs of paranoid schizophrenia and/or
           methamphetamine abuse.  He has deteriorated in the last two months
           into a raving loony who tells his other roommates that they are
           "out to get him" and they are "all in on it."  Recently it came to
           light that this little lovely somehow managed to mail order an
           AK-47 knockoff and a short barelled 9mm handgun, and has been
           seen skulkling around various random San Francisco political
           events that involve supervisors.  Here's the dilemma: my friend
           and his other roommates having discovered this, they felt that it
           was a) extremely bad for this guy to have such guns without telling
           anyone in the house and b) extremeley bad for this guy to have
           guns at all.  They have taken the guns away and they are now
           sitting in my house where he (hopefully) can't get them.  Am I
           doing the right thing?  Also, how in California, land of the assault
           rifle ban, did he manage to mail order such a gun?  Crazy roommate
           claimed it was "Russian surplus," which seems halfway plausible
           since it has a bayonet attached.
           \_ Not all guns sellers are aware of, or honor California law.
              This is a bad situation and it's hard to do much.  If he hasn't
              threatened or hurt anyone, there's not much the authorities can do
              unfortunately.  If I were you, I'd have a casual chat with the
              police.  They can probably just arrest him for having the assault
              rifle, but it's best to have all your ducks in a row before you
              go ahead and confirm your roomate's paranoia. --had loony roomie
           \_ If this is real turn the guns in and tell them how you got them
              and maybe they'll get this guy taken in for a 3 day eval.
              \_ 5150, yo!
                 \_ five by five, yo!
2004/2/6 [Reference/Military] UID:12119 Activity:nil
        So I don't shoot gun and don't know anything about it but this is
        just disturbing. I can actually get 1000 rounds for only $100, or
        10 cents per bullet where each bullet is capable of killing 1 person.
        Is there something wrong with the gun industry?         -anti gun guy
        \_ Maybe some of our resident chem geeks can tell us how much
           the chemicals required to kill 1000 people with sarin cost.
                                            -anti molecule guy
        \_ Happy trolling!
2004/2/6 [Reference/Military] UID:12118 Activity:high
2/5     Speaking of guns, can someone tell me what makes for a good handgun?
        What is the best handgun on the market? I'm not "anti gun guy".
        \_ umm. tell me what the best laptop on the market is and i'll tell
           you what the best handgun is. your problem is not well-defined.
           \_ since it's not well defined you're free to answer how you wish.
        \_ Some reliable handguns: almost any revolver, some 1911s, almost
           anything by Glock, H&K, or SIG.  Some accurate handguns:
           anything by H&K with the little rubber ring around the barrel,
           some custom revolvers, some custom 1911s.  The most beautiful
           handguns, in my opinion, are the classic 1911, the SIG P210,
           some old revolvers, and the German Luger.  Did I miss any other
           notion of 'best'?  -- ilyas
           \_ Well, maybe the best balance of everything, that is readily
              available. And/or your personal favorite. Thanks :)
              \_ I might have given the impression that 1911s are really
                 great.  Some of them are, but it's important to buy from
                 the right folks.  There are lots of junky 1911s floating
                 around.  It is a great gun though, my personal favorite.
                   -- ilyas
                 \_ The 1911 is a fairly complicated gun to take apart, IIRC.
                    The Glock, Beretta, and a handful of others have fewer
                    parts to keep track of.  I rather like the lines on the
                    Beretta 92's myself, though there's something rather
                    attractive about the Browning HiPower.
                    \_ True.  Modern guns are easier to take apart.  Revolvers
                       even easier still.  -- ilyas
                       easier still.  -- ilyas
                       easier still.  Modern guns tend to look like a wad of
                       prechewed plastic though.  -- ilyas
        \_ You might want to at least start with caliber, size, and what
           you want to use it for.  That'll narrow things down for a
           \_ I just want completely subjective opinions, out of idle curiosity.
              \_ Okay, well my personal preference is to avoid single-
                 action only (I don't like the idea of keeping a gun
                 cocked and locked).  Also I like either a safety, or
                 a decocking lever.  SIGs seem to fit my criteria
                 best; they're reliable, come in a variety of sizes and
                 calibers, but do tend to be a bit expensive.
        \_ just out of curiosity, do people see any huge benefits between
           .40 and 9mm?  .45 has more stopping power, IIRC, but what about
           the other two?
           \_ arrrrrrggggggg! Doesn't it bother anyone that the gun world still
              uses a random mixture of English and SI units?  Why do American
              gun manufacturers continue with the 9mm when it's only three
              thousanths of an inch shy of a .357?  -unitsgeek
              \_ Because they don't shoot like .357s?  I've found shooting
                 a 357 mag a bit too much.  Haven't tried the 357 SIG
           \_ Use the largest calibre you are capable of shooting comfortably.
              Truly comfortably, no need to be macho about it.
              \_ This is very good advice.   -Peace Officer Cadet
        \_ what are people's favorite shooting ranges? (for handguns).
           Anyone happen to know of a good one in the Davis area?
           \_ Target Masters in Milpitas has a truly excellent pistol range.
              \_ Seconded. Try before you buy. Go to:
                 (But turn down your sound-- they play a cheesy 007 theme
                  on the page.)
        \_ You could have a hand gun or a cannon
           And you still struggling to be dealing
           Without the knowledge and wisdom and understanding of
           A .22 (derringer)
           A .38 (long)
           A .44 (desert eagle)
           A Glock Nine
           Time to protect the fam I'm a cock mine
           I make the streets run red like a stop sign, stop lying
        \_ The one I pried from Charlton Heston's cold dead hands.
           \_ Hi Eli!
        \_ Where'd all the anti-gun nuts go?  I'm shocked this didn't turn
           into a flame fest.a
           \_ What would be the point? So, I'm curious, anybody ever fire a
              Broomhandle Mauser? --anti-gun nut
           \_ I think we'd be better off without guns, but since there are so
              many in the hands of criminals, it seems unfair to deny them to
              responsible gun owners.  -- Moderately anti-gun.
2004/2/6 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:12116 Activity:kinda low
2/5     speaking of death:
        \_ I like this: "If you are really concerned about your safety, stop
           smoking, lose weight, and get moderate exercise. And watch your
           drinking and use of non-prescription drugs" while not saying
           anything about driving. They should say "If you are really
           concerned about your safety, stop driving."
           \_ and to be truly safe, go live in a cave.
              \_ Read "The Hot Zone"? Things like ebola may grow in caves.
           \_ yeah yeah ride bike, light candle, use linux, whatever.  the rest
              of us have lives to lead.  we don't live on your utopia.
              \_ go fuck yourself. it's not that hard to live near where you
                 \_ Uhm, yeah, if you work at Safeway, moron.  Or you're a kid
                    willing to way overpay *rent* on a shitty little run down
                    1 room in a south bay or penninsula pit.  Some of us have
                    real lives going on and can't just pick up and move to the
                    next slummy pit for a new job.  Did I mention you're a
                    moron?  Yes, I did.  I think I forgot to mention you're
                    also a self righteous smug little ignorant bastard, too.
                    \_ I work in the Financial District and live one half
                       block from the Muni stop. For the last 10 years I
                       have lived and worked in San Francisco. It isn't
                       that hard if you make it a priority.
2004/2/5 [Reference/Military, Reference/History/WW2] UID:12104 Activity:nil
2/4     Just finished The Guns Of August by Barbara Tuchman.  Wow.  Highly
        highly recommended if you have any interest in WWI history.
        \- you may wish to read: E.H. Carr: Twenty Years Crisis --psb
        \_ hew strachan.  the first world war.  only volume 1 so far tho.
2004/1/29 [Reference/Military] UID:12004 Activity:nil
1/29    So when is the war happening to stop stuff like this?
        \_ Duh, your own article says they're fighting right now.
2004/1/27 [Reference/Military] UID:29763 Activity:nil
1/26    Yes psb, go on this one:
2004/1/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:11965 Activity:very high
1/27    What will happen with a match between a Kendo master and a western
        style swordsman.
        \_ You are asking what would happen if a guy with a bamboo stick
           and some padding fought another guy with a real sword and real
        \_ I saw a very detailed article online somewhere analyzing what would
           happen in a duel between a Samurai and a European knight.  It sort of
           said they each were trained/equipped to fight a different type of
           opponent, and the answer was it was inconclusive.  One of them would
           probably strike a lucky blow and that would be the end of it.
           \_ do you remember where you read/saw the article?
              \_ I found it, then someone else found it too...
        \_ aren't Japanese swords superior and can cut any inferior
           Dark Age sword/armor? On the other hand Samurais don't have
           much armor, so... yeah it's hard to say.
                \_ Japanese samurai get a bonus against other infantry
                   in the Imperial Age.
                   \_ It is as it was.
           \_ You need to compare the sword from the height of each age.
              Japanese swords were designed for slashing at laquer or padded
              armors.  European sword were designed for crushing of piercing
              mail and plate armors.  One sword cutting another only happens in
              \_ This is false.  Well-made european (one-handed) swords could
                 chop through mail.  I d like to see a katana do that.
              \_ there were some guys at some university using modern material
                 science to design the ultimate sword. i think there was a press
                 release or something about it, if you care to search for it.
                 it may have been on slashdot too.
        \_ There are many different Eastern and Western sword styles. Much
           depends on armor and sword quality, and era. Light armor, two
           weapon style (E vs. W) would be the coolest to watch. I'd actually
           give the edge to late era Western style.
        \_ Knight wins, Kendo guy would have to pierce the armor.
        \_ Mighty Mouse would totally beat Superman.
           \_ You know that's not true!  SMan would r0x MMs s0x!
              \_ Mighty Mouse equips Rod of Terror and casts Power Word, Kill!
                 \_ SM has spell resistence of 75, makes the save, and punches
                    MM for 85d6!  Take that you cartoon freak!
        \_ I think you also have to consider physical features. For example,
           by the theory of evolution the survivors of The Plague in Europe
           are in fact bigger and stronger than say, scrawny little Asian
           genes that didn't get weeded out by European disease.  -go Darwin
                \_ you forgot to mention intelligence. I have no doubt that
                   scrawny little Asian men survived because of their
                   superior intelligence and superior organizational skills.
                   Damn motd is full of white supremacists      -Asian man
                   \_ No, motd is full of trolls.  You have been trolled.  Wee!
                   \_ no, the asian man survived because the white man hadn't
                      found reason to wipe him out at that point.  japan was
                      just a rock and china always had too many living on too
                      little which is just plain stupid, frankly.
           \_ yes you are a troll, but in the http article above, it
              does mention physical stature.
           \_ The plague was spread from China to Europe.
              \_ Well, that's the Genghis Khan theory, but more recent theories
                 claim it came from east Africa (Egypt, Nubia etc.)  My theory
                 is that plague predates human.  Unless you can travel in time,
                 there is no scientific point in such speculation.
                 \_ I am referring specifically to the one big outbreak
                    in 1347 to 1352 which killed like 1/3 of Europe's
                    population.  Even if the East Africa theory is
                    correct, the plague did not spare China, causing
                    widespread deaths in 1330s before it spread to
                    Europe.  Historically, and today (SARS, flu, etc.),
                    lots of diseases / new mutations of diseases come
                    from China, due to its population density, weather,
                    \_ don't forget the dirtiness.
                       \_ and the Communism.
                        \_ and the sex with chickens.
2004/1/27 [Consumer/Camera, Reference/Military] UID:11953 Activity:nil
1/26    Yes psb, go on this one:
        You can bring a large camera.  When the boat goes fast, it will
        kick up spray and you will need to hold onto something with both
        hands or sit down.  When it's near a whale, the boat will slow down,
        then you can whip it out.
        \_ Heh heh, he said 'whip it out'.
           \- helo, would you recommend a tripod? if so, a full-sized
              [say  4-5 ft high] one or a small hiking tripod?
              also has anyone used an image-stabilized lens over water?
              does it work or do weird things happen? --psb
              \_ I didn't see anyone use a tripod, and it seems difficult
                 with all the rolling around.  People did bring big cameras
                 though.  pretty bouncy, and it was a calm day!
2003/12/31 [Reference/Military] UID:11628 Activity:moderate
12/30   How come sniper rifles need cranking? Why can't they be made
        automatic like machine guns or the pistols?
        \_ I suppose by what you call "cranking" is properly referred to
           as bolt-action. THere are few "sniper" rifles that are semi-auto
           like the M21/M25 (based on the M-14). What the public thinks
           and fears as "sniper" rifle is more than likely based upon
           hunting rifles. Cycling the bolt slowly minimizes movement of
           the entire gun. Also the springs in box magazines are affected
           by weather. in fact, snipers often use the same kind round out
           of the same box when zereoing them for training and operations
        \_ bolt action is simpler than any automatic/semi-automatic.
           in addition to less movement, less parts to get involved
           the shooting process in general.  but there are many fine
           semi-automatic "sniping" rifiles.  check out this site:
           \_ Bolt action rifles are more accurate (complex feed mechanisms
              affect accuracy).  Furthermore, a sniper often wants control
              over when the round gets ejected, something many semi-autos
              do not give him.  Nothing is worse than a tell-tale "plink"
              noise from an ejected round when the enemy is around, something
              american GIs with garand rifles found out the hard way in WWII.
                -- ilyas
        \_ One Shot, One Kill!  Only street sweeping punks use anything else.
        \_ The above are all wrong.  It's simple: One Shot, One Kill, baby!
2003/12/24 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Reference/Military] UID:11579 Activity:high
12/23   Regards to Nurenberg Trial.  Nurenberg is just an instrument for
        the victors to humilate and extract values from the defeated enemy.
        This is why none of the Allie forces ever got tried for the atrocity
        they commited.  This includes looting of Nazi treasury and art
        collection (which still sits in the National Archive in Washingon DC),
        as well as  includes nuclear bombing, fire bombing,
        and all the carpet bombing we performed on civilians.

        This is also the reason why some of the Nazi units, noticebly the
        African Corp and the Nazi Navy, who fought the war with extremely
        high degree of professionalism, also got tried and convicted by
        the Nurenberg.

        This is also the reason why Emporer of Japan, who ultimately
        started the Asian front of World War 2, didn't get tried as a
        war criminal.  Ridiculously, last emperor of China was tried
        as a war criminal for being a puppet of Japanese Empire.

        Then, there is the story of Unit 731 of Japanese Army, who used
        civilians and POWs to test chemical/biological weapon.None of them
        were even tried because they made a deal with USA.  In exchange for
        their freedom, they gave USA  the test results of these chemical/
        biological weapon experiments using human subjects.

        There is nothing perplex about Nurenberg once you accept the fact
        that it is nothing more than instruement to enhance US and British
        interest.   If you try to think in the line of administering justice,
        then you will have serious problems.
                        -- a Chinese who has no sympathy toward Japan,
                           but still think nuclear bombing is wrong.
        \_ To the victor, go the spoils.  So fucking what?  And as far as
           American still thinking of China as a subject state, again, so
           fucking what?  If it was the other way around, the Chinese wouldn't
           be sitting around wondering how they can sell us more Big Macs.
           They'd have destroyed our country and our children right through
           college would be learning about how the Great Leader Mao saved us
           from our Imperalist Oppressors and it only cost us DC, LA, and
           Chicago, but hey they were all bastions of evil capitalists anyway.
           Take your Chinese troll to some place that gives a shit.  When
           you're a citizen you can vote and then your opinion will matter
           to someone.  Or you can go home and vote there, but, oh no, wait,
           sorry, you can't vote there.  No one can vote there.
           \_ Of course you can vote there, moron!  You can vote "yes" or
           \_ Yes you can vote there, moron!  You can vote "yes" or "yes".
        \_ Can you elaborate on the Nazi units with extremely high degree of
           professionalism part?  Thx.
                \_ think he means no rampage of killing, no sniper, no
                   sabotage, etc, that they fought according to the book &
                   followed the Geneva Convention of treating US soldiers
                   with respect.
                   \_ Heh.  Snipers are unprofessional now?
                      Are you on crack?  Should we go back to the civil war
                      era of gentleman wars where people marched around in
                      tightly packed formations, and targetting officers
                   with respect.
                      was considered poor sportsmanship?  wtf
        \_ Frankly as an American with both of my grandfather's fighting in
           in WWII I don't give a fuck what you think.  That said, in the
           battle for Okinawa over 250,000 died.  Extrapolate those numbers
           to Kyushu and then the home island...
           Japan had its entire Army intact in China, and the
           Soviets were days from entering the war.  Had they, Japan and
           China would likely still be partitioned like the Koreas.
           Furthermore it was impractical to move the millions of needed
           troops out of Europe because of the Soviet threat.  One could
           go on and on...
           \_ Partition was unnecessary.  It end up being partitioned
              as result of USA and USSR splits the spoils of the war,
              treating the Chinese as nothing more than their Imperialistic
              subjects.  This mentality still exist today in the mind of
2003/12/17 [Reference/Military] UID:11494 Activity:nil
12/16   A Gun that shoots around corners:
        \_ They did the same thing on the very old Get Smart show.
        \_ A mounted mirror is almost as good and is simpler and less likely to
           fail.  The only thing is that the shooter has to compensate for
           lateral inversion.
           \_ It's just a gun with all the parts pushed forward.  What's going
              to fail more than any other gun?
              \_ The camera, the LCD, the battery.
2003/12/15-16 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11461 Activity:kinda low
12/15   hey ilyas:
        (tobler interprets the Ringeck Verses)
        \_ right. just in case you just finished Quicksilver and felt it
           wasn't nerdy enough.
           \_ this book is not supposed to be fiction.  It's a system of
              movements for the art of applied geometry.
              \_ Agrippa is better for that.
                 \_ Agrippa wasn't thinking of a longsword, he was thinking
                    of rapier.
                    \_ What about Silver?
                       \_ Well, he had a bit of a bias vs. scherma.
                 \_ ?
                    \_ Agrippa was a mathematician.  Basically he came up
                       with a system of movements that let the scholar
                       form the hypotenuse with his arm and blade to the
                       triangle created by the opponents arm, blade, angle
                       and point.  Alot of the spanish style, the so called
                       "magic circle" is all appications of geometry of chords
                       tangents, etc, since they didn't have the silly
                       limitations of strip fencing. - pst
           \_ For the record I don't like Stephenson.  I find most of his
              books (after Snowcrash) long and boring.  Also the above poster
              is right, this isn't fiction, it's a martial art manual.
                -- ilyas
              books (after Snowcrash) long and boring. -- ilyas
        \_ Neat!  Thanks, motd Santa! -- ilyas
           \_ ya might also wanna ask him for a gorget.  Preferably steel
              I took a schlager in the throat the other week and even thru
        \_ Neat!  Thanks, motd Santa! -- ilyas
              a steel one it still hurt and stunned. - pst
           \_ Motd santa pls bring me:
           \_ If you like that, tell us about this:
2003/12/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:11441 Activity:very high
        Doesn't it seem kind of strange to you that terrorist are
        allowed to buy guns in America.
        \_ I'm more struck by a college-educate American reading USA Today.
           \_ I am impressed by your educate. By the way, it is 2 cups to
              a pint, 2 pints to a quart, and 4 quarts to a gallon. A cup
              is 8 fluid ounces. A pound is 16 ounces, which has nothing
              to do with fluid ounces. How much longer before my Cal
              degree is worth the same as one from CSU?
2003/12/11 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29704 Activity:nil
2003/12/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Reference/Military] UID:11389 Activity:nil
12/9    Bush continues to win "hearts and minds" in the Middle East"
        \_ yeah. Afghan is in the Middle East.  They are Arabs too...
           besides, Muslim == Arabs == terrorist.  With such strong
           conviction, we will prevail.
        \_ "... if noncombatants surround themselves with thousands of
           weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition and howitzers
           and mortars in a compound known to be used by a terrorist we
           are not completely responsible for the consequences."
           If I read this right, I think the Army is saying:" those kids
           are playing around with these ammo, thus, they deserved it."
           \_ Uhm, no.  More like, "It's not our fault."
              \_ Didn't work for the FBI at Ruby Ridge either.
2003/12/9 [Reference/Military] UID:11363 Activity:low
12/8    How comfortable are military planes? For example, if I'm flying a
        long mission to Iraq in my B2 or F117, will I get heated seats, AC,
        cushioned seat, TV dinner, etc on the plane?
        \_ Think: Enough comfort to be functional and little more.
        \_ No TV diner. There's a waste bladder for you to piss in. No real "AC"
           since it's not pressurized. Though a B-2 might be.
           \_ Consider B2 missions can last 36 hours long...
2003/12/8-9 [Reference/Military] UID:11358 Activity:moderate
12/7    Hey military hardware people.  I liked the movie Aliens 2 a lot.
                                                         \_ Aliens, no 2
        It showed a lot of futuristic military gear that are really cool.
        Just how much is that stuff is in use today?  E.g., I like the guns
        with LED counter on the number of bullets lefts, the handheld motion
        sensor maps, the body armor with cameras in the helmets and links
        to a command post which monitors their vital signs, the automatic
        machine guns which fires based on motion, etc.  Seems like we can
        use a lot of that stuff.  Thanks.
        \_ Pancor Jackhammer.  And for all the naysaying luddites below,
           have a look at troop tactics over the years, and how they have
           adapted to technology over the years.  You may note that the
           individual soldier _is_ more valuable today (note also that we
           don't go for rolling curtains of artillery or human wave charges
           anymore?)  A lot of that is due to the ability to project force
           more precisely.  Today's army uses computers, lasers, satellites,
           smart munitions and strong air-ground coordination, where you
           people would probably have bearded thugs beating each other with
           clubs.  So yes, mr. OP we can and do use a lot of that stuff
           (although yes, the blinkenlights might be sort of a liability in
           battle.)  -John
           \_ The Jackhammer was a prototype fully auto shotgun. What does that
              have to do with the assault weapons in Aliens? As I recall, those
              were select fire, fired caseless ammo and had an integrated
              grenade launcher. P.S., I'm no gun nut, but a fully auto weapon
              with a 10 round magazine doesn't seem all that useful...
        \_ A transparent magazine works almost as well.  Lots of automatic
           guns have those now.
        \_ I think that in general, the idea of a lot of expensive stuff on
           each soldier works logically in the movie, where because it's a
           space ship there is a fixed supply of troops and each one is very
           valuable. Here on Earth, troops are a dime a dozen. Monitor their
           vital signs? I think the blood and screaming is a good monitor.
           Elite commando forces can use more stuff like that.
        \_ an LED counter on the side is going to get troops killed.  "Look
           for the red lights at night, Abdul, and shoot there!"
           That movie had a good moral -- if you don't use the technology
           right they'll still kill you.
        \_ I can also see motion sensor guns causing a lot of friendly
           ire deaths...
           \_ what kind of reasoning is that?  Any weapon can cause friendly
              fire.  With the automatic shoot-on-motion machine guns, you
              don't put them on your front gate where people come in and
              out.  You put it on the border between Iraq and Iran.  Shoot
              to kill any fucker that tries to get in.  Also between
              US and Mexico or Afghanistan and Pakistan.  Illegal immigration
              will stop after that goes in.  I guarantee you that.
              \_ Wouldn't they be easy to take out/avoid? They would stupidly
                 fire at any moving thing? Tumbleweed etc. I can imagine a lot
                 of wasted ammo. Then, they are fixed, open targets for someone
                 to shoot. Probably expensive with the optics/sensors/tracking.
                 Just overengineering for a problem that doesn't really exist.
                 \_ Couple an optical and IR sensor.  Shoot at every
                    warm-blooded moving thing.
                    \_ Would that work in deserts? Anyway, people could hide
                       behind thick shields and wave stuff around until the
                       ammo is gone. But how about this alternative? You have
                       the remote-control gun emplacements with fancy imaging
                       sensors. You have a room of counterstrike players. Then
                       you route the control of the guns to the players based
                       on motion detection, telemarketer style.
              \_ Even when only deployed in the right areas, I can still
                 imagine carelessness causing a lot of deaths.  Maybe computer
                 controlled gun turrets would make more sense.
                 \_ ...right, with deibold software on top of a windows os.
                    \_ If their field-of-fire is fixed at 120-degrees and they
                       are programmed to shoot everything, then they won't
                       kill friendlies unless they walk into the field-of-fire.
           \_ You could have friendly troops wearing specialized RFID chips
              and put a terrahertz-band transmitter on the gun and it would
              be a challenge-response system.
              \_ RFID isn't terahertz.
                 \_ I know.  You'd want something that can be better confined
                    to a beam.  You don't want the gun to set off every tag
                    around, just those its pointed towards.  Likewise, you
                    don't want peoples' tags signaling in every direction.
              \_ You should apply for an ARPA grant. Seriously.
                 \_ Maybe, but I'm reminded of the Matt Damon monologue from
                    "Good Will Hunting"
                    \_ Why?  It has nothing to do with you.
        \_ Strap on your headset and play the Counterstrike mod
           "Natural Selection".
        \_ I thought I saw a documentary on the future infantry man.
           They are doing research and testing on new technologies now.
2003/12/5-6 [Reference/Military, Health/Women] UID:11331 Activity:nil
12/5    Random Facts About Finland Thread:
        I heard that the Fins are actually Huns, unlike the other
        Scandinavians who are Nordic.  Is that true?
        \_ IIRC, Finns don't consider themselves Scandinavian.
                \_ Most Scandinavians don't consider Finns Scandinavians
                   either.  -John
            \_ According to a recent _Scientific American_, there is no
               genetic basis for race.  (I didn't read the article and
               am somewhat skeptical (as i always am) but it is interesting
               if true).
                  \- richard lewontin just gave a talk here on this.
                     you can google for him. --psb
                        \_ how come nobody posted the day/tim, i possibly
                           would have sat in. :(
        \_ "/csua/bin/webster Scandinavia" says "2 Denmark, Norway, Sweden, &
           sometimes also Iceland, the Faeroe Islands, & Finland"
        \_ the finnish language is related to hungarian, as is estonian.
           they are the only three extant members of the finno-ugric
           language family i believe.  make what conclusions you will.
           \_ Don't forget Quenya. -- ilyas
        \_ BTW, in Finnish last name goes first, just like in East Asian
           languages.  This is rare in European languages.
           \- finnish is a central asian language.
        \_ I heard 1/4 of Finland's GDP is from Nokia and its subsideries.
        \_ From few Finnish Americans I know personally, I learned that despit
           the graphical proximity, Fins and Swedes have a very different
           culture (at least the language).  While Fins in some way still
           held some degree of animosity toward Swedes, they are forced to
           learn Swedish as part of their regular curriculum in their public
           education today.             -kngharv
           \_ Finland also has a section of the army that speaks primarily
              sweedish.  A finn i know joined the sweedish speaking finnish
              army to practice his sweedish during his army service.
              imagine if we had a spanish speaking army here in the US.
           \_ Finland was part of Sweden for 600 years or so before it became
              part of Russia.  Now Swedish is one of the official languages in
        \_ Are Finnish women slim and beautiful just like Swedes and Norwegians?
           Or are they more like fat american cows?
           \_ they are thin.  They also tend to dye their hair dark, unlike
                the Swedes who dye blonde.
           \_ Finns had the highest suicide rate in the world in 1997 (they've
              since begun an aggressive anti-suicide campaign, so it's hard to
              assess whether this ranking still holds true).  They also have
              one of the highest alcoholic rates in the world.  What does this
              tell you about Finnish women?  Nothing, but I'm just saying....
              \_ both of these are also true of alaska, canada, poland,
                 siberia and scandenavia.  it's the cold and dark, but
                 mostly the dark.
                 \_ eh, in the summer it's the opposite of dark. it stays light
                    basically all night long. the drunks get drunk regardless.
                    \_ well, ok. the only one i know much about is alaska,
                       since i grew up there, and worked there in the summers
                       in college.  the winter/alcoholism effect is worsened
                       by the number of seasonal industries like fishing
                       that can make you alot of money in the light months,
                       which you can save up to basically become a professional
                       drunk throughout the winter months.  I've known people
                       who lived that way.
        \_ Sigh. Huns are huns. People who call other people Huns are usually
           idiots, except in your case. You're just stupid.
2003/11/23-24 [Reference/Military] UID:11198 Activity:kinda low
11/23   "Iraq is the final nail in the coffin for the M-16," said a commander
        who asked not to be identified.
        \_ About time, too.  Next up, blasters!
           \_ I'll drink to that.  In the meantime, the Brits are very
              seriously considering these beauties:
              \_ The brits are going to replace their main assault rifle with
                 a submachine gun?  Are you joking?
                 \_ What's the difference between an assualt rifle and a
                    machine gun?  Both can keep on firing as long as you hold
                    the trigger, right?  -- newbie
                    \_ The difference is range and stopping power.
                       A submachine gun fires pistol rounds, an assault rifle
                       fires 'hybrid rounds', i.e. half way between a pistol
                       and a bolt-action rifle round.  In WWII armies used
                       a mix of rifles firing 'big rounds' which had range
                       and accuracy, but not a lot of firepower, and
                       submachine guns which had firepower but no range.
                       After the war, most armies moved to use assault
                       rifles (a german WWII invention, incidentally),
                       something which combined the advantages of a bolt
                       action rifle and a submachine gun.  -- ilyas
                    \_ An assault rifle is an semi-automatic or automatic
                       rifle (think long barrel). Semi-automatic means you
                       need to pull the trigger for each shot (no cocking or
                       reloading motion needed). Machine guns have an automatic
                       mode (hold trigger, shoots more than one shot). It
                       can be a pistol or a rifle.
                       \_ Does anyone make a fully-automatic pistol?  Why would
                          anyone want to use them except to haphazardly shoot
                          everyone in the general vicinity?
                          \_ What about that automatic gun with very short
                             barrel that was used by Reagan's bodyguards during
                             his assasination?  Is that classified as a pistol?
                      \_ machine guns firing pistol rounds (45ACP 10mm 9mm etc)
                         are called submachineguns.  think uzi, HK MP5, MAC-10
                         A pistol that can fire as a fully automatic weapon is
                         called a select-fire pistol
2003/11/21 [Reference/Military, Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:11171 Activity:high
11/20   The Germans had the V1/V2 cruise missile and the Japanese had germ and
        chemicals. Rather than bombing London with traditional explosives
        and incendiaries, why didn't they borrow germ/chemical technologies
        on the Brits?
        \_ Oh ignorant one of history, Hitler fondly remembers being attacked
           by chemicla weapons in WWI as measily Corporal and that's one of
           the reasons why he didn't do the same.
        \_ At the end of the war, pounded from all sides, the Axis were
           anything but monolithic.  I am guessing there simply wasn't enough
           communication between Germany and Japan by the time Hitler became
           desperate enough to seriously consider 'miracle weapons' like
           toxins and germs.  Furthermore, even if Japan agreed to make
           available to Germany the results of its germs/toxins programs, there
           would be staggering logistical difficulties in moving the required
           materials to Germany.  Japan had a hard enough time moving oil
           and essential supplies through American bombers and ships.
             -- ilyas
        \_ they needed to have insurance (Nukes) first so there wouldn't be
           any severe retaliation from nukes dropped on Germany.
        \_ chemical warfare has never been really effective and germ warfare
           is very difficult to do right and there's always the worry that
           some bug you release will come back and wipe you out, too.  so
           even if they could've done it, neither was a good plan.
           \_ on battle field, true.  against civilian, you would be suprised
              how effective it is on reducing population.  Japanese at the
              had enough anthrex to kill entire world's population, I heard
              \_ no.  effective dispersal is *very* difficult.  it comes down
                 to this: if you need to get a person into the chemical or germ
                 zone to have an effect, it is cheaper to just bomb them.  if
                 it is some brutal pathogen that spreads easily then you can
                 get wiped out by it, too.  anthrax is a really shitty mass bio
                 weapon, btw.
                 \_ This must be emphasized. Even in WWI, gas attacks were
                    effective primarily because of weather conditions and that
                    soldiers had to stay where they were, in low-lying areas,
                    so they wouldn't get shot. Wind, perciptation, temperature
                    all affect the effectiveness of chem/bio weapons.
                    \_ They'd be even more effective in the case of a high tech
                       force fighting a low tech one, but the western
                       hight-tech armies have sworn to not use them.  Which
                       is a pity considering that most of their battlese these
                       days seem to be against vastly inferior tech-wise
                       opponents. The ineffectiveness of chem weapons in WWI
                       was more one of stupid generals not taking proper
                       advantage of them.  The first use of Chlorine at Ypres
                       caused a breach in the French lines that the Germans
                       didn't bother to exploit.  No weapon is effective in
                       incompetant hands.
                       \_ are you saying they'd be a good weapon against
                          civilians today?  in WWII in London?  it's still
                          way easier to just bomb someone.
                       \_ Ah, I'm guessing you're a "destroy-the-village"
                          kinda guy.
                          \_ when the enemy combatantants are indistinguishable
                             from the village, and/or are supported by the
                             village, is the distinction not blurred?
2003/11/12-13 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11048 Activity:nil
11/12   We like to accuse other countries of war crimes, but won't own up to
        our own:
        Interestingly, Donald Rumsfeld was ALSO the Secretary of Defense when
        the investigation was simply filed away and covered up.
        \_ America, love it or leave it.
           \_ Or fix it.
           \_ I like to memorize bumper stickers instead of thinking for myself,
           \_ this comment is beyond stupid
              \_ has it crossed into the realm of dubya?
           \_ Is this what you would have said to Patrick Henry? Could you
              stare George Washington in the face and say this? "Stupid
              Revolutionaries, if you don't like the colonies being ruled
              by England, just leave!". Do me a favor and fuck yourself.
              \_ I think he was trolling. He got 4, 3 were small though.
                 Anyway it's better than "My country, right or wrong!"
        \_ Heh, I was going to say there hasn't been anything even remotely
           like a war crime since Vietnam and then, hey, what did you dig up
           but stuff about Vietnam?  What next?  Some of the founders owned
           slaves!  Whatever.
           \_ Those who don't learn from the past...
              \_ Yawn.  Which war crimes are being committed today by US
                 \_ I would think whatever is happening in guantanamo bay
                    would considered as war crime.  The administration
                    repeatly state that fight against Terror is a different
                    kind of war, thus, international rule doesn't apply.  This
                    arguement is errily similiar to what Hitler has told his
                    staff regards to war against the USSR.
                    \_ You think holding some dudes against their will is a
                       war crime?  Are you one of those people who thinks in
                       black'n'white on every subject?  A war crime is being
                       resposible for the deaths of hundreds, thousands or in
                       WW2, millions of civilians.  A war crime is the scum at
                       the UN engaged in the sex slave trade who are the same
                       people responsible for ending it.  A war crime is one
                       group of people genociding another.  Getting put on a
                       plane to gitmo, given 3 squares and a Koran, a compass
                       and access to Muslim clerics is not a war crime, son.
                       \_ Dude, it's the ESL Conspiracy Theorist Guy.  He's so
                          mired in his Anti-US Utopia, that he's invented his
                          own english-like vocabulary and a unique sort of
                          logic to support his POV.
                       \_ Alright, who let the John Bircher out of his cage
           \_ Last time I checked, we were still trying Nazi Criminals couple
              years ago.  If the statue of limitation is more than 50 years
              (as how we treats the Nazis), I think a lot of people deserve
              to be hung.
              \_ They were convicted in 1945.  There's no place in the world
                 where running away for long enough after a conviction gets
                 you off the hook.  But, yes, I agree with you that a lot of
                 people deserve to be hung, statute of limitations or not.
2003/11/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:11028 Activity:nil
11/11   Hey, gun nuts!  Is the M16 really that much of a piece of junk?
        Why are we still using it?  does it have *any* advantages over the
        AK-47?  What about those assault rifles the Swiss militia uses?
        \_ The M16 is one of the best assault weapons in the world.  Its
           reputation for jamming is largely a misconception carried over
           from Vietnam. One of the reasons there were such hideous issues
           in Vietnam was due to the fact that the weapon was manufactured
           for a specific type of propellant.  A different (cheaper, I would
           guess) was then issued in the field which caused massive cleaning
           problems, and alot of its reputation for jamming.  Usually you can
           look to the special operations community to get a feel for how
           effective a weapon system is.  AFAICR, British SAS, American Special
           Forces, and the Israelies all use this weapon system.  *shrug*
           There are many other weapon systems which are superior (definitely
           NOT the AK47), and the decision to stay with a newer revision of
           the '16 is definitely political.
        \_ search the motd archive, this was gone over not too long ago...
        \_ Like any weapon procurement, this is mostly political. The M-16
           works beautifully, as long as you don't use it for anything
           silly like war. Got some dirt in it? Just hope the enemy isn't
           attacking you while you are cleaning out the dust, dirt, or
           anything commonly found on the battlefield. At basic training,
           one instructor said that if you are battling an enemy using an
           AK-47, shoot and kill the enemy, then take his weapon. Though
           \_ Uhh, that may have been true in Vietnam, but in the modern
              battlefield, I think that's the stupidest thing I've ever
              heard.  No offense to you, amigo.
           it does not have the range or accuracy of the M-16, in real
           battles, it is priceless because it will work in real battlefield
           conditions (with dirt, mud, etc. plus, it's easy to disassemble
           and clean, quickly).
           \_ So if there's a sandstorm in Iraq now, our ground troops will
              suffer big losses?
              \_ It requires someone shooting at you who can aim to suffer
                 losses.  big losses requires lots and lots of guys shooting
                 at lots and lots of guys (in a sandstorm) and hitting them.
                 so, no, we don't take big losses at every sandstorm.
                 \_ Well, that also assumes they jam, which after 30+ years
                    of service and four revisions, seems pretty fucking
           \_ This site bears a striking resemblance to a lot of white power
              web sites.
        \_ I think you should be comparing it with the old M-14 rather
           than comparing it with AK-47s
        \_ M16 gets dirty and jams quickly.  Rounds are lighter and tumble,
           rather than 7.92mm which go straight through.  M16 is also lighter
           overall, but more complex to manufacture.  Draw your own
           confusions.  -John
           \_ 7.62mm?
              \_ they use their own scale in switzerland.
2003/11/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10901 Activity:moderate
        "US Considering Recaling Units of Old Iraq Army"
        Like I said, it's a huge mistake to disband the Iraqi army.
        Our brilliant leaders are finally realizing it.  Disbanding the
        army unnecessarily creates many enemies from those who can cause
        the most problems.
        \_ That's very doubtful.  It creates problems by leaving a huge pool
           of unemployed people, though I suspect that very few of those are
           are actually being recruited by terrorists in the way you seem to
           be implying.
           \_ You don't need many.  Just 10% will give you a 50000 strong
              guerilla army.
              \_ But in context, even 1% is an obscenely unrealistic number.
                 \_ why?  is it that hard to believe that some iraqis
                    don't think we should be occupying their country?
                    \_ I'm sure many more than that don't want us there.
                       However, that dislike is not going to 100% translate
                       into the desire to drive a truck bomb into the Red Cross
                       HQ.  If there was a 50000 or even 5000 strong guerilla
                       army running around there'd be a lot more killing going
                       on.  Nothing that's happened so far requires more than
                       100-200 people around the entire country.
                       \_ There are 25-35 attacks A DAY on our troops in Iraq.
                          \_ Yes.  Everytime a soldier stubs his toe it's
                             counted as an attack.  Do you really want a
                             Vietnam style body count?
                             \_ You're being ridiculous and in the process
                       \_ I think most of the attacks are non-suicidal,
                                belittling the real attacks that are taking
                                \_ There are plenty of real attacks.  However,
                                   I don't think every toe stubbing counts.
                       \_ Most of the attacks are non-suicidal,
                          just road side bombs that can be triggered,
                          rocket propelled grenades and a few mortars,
                          precisely the things people with military
                          training would be good at, and most are targetted
                          directly at the occupational forces.  The
                          rest are targetted at "collaborators".
                          \_ Few militaries are trained to set road side bombs,
                          rest are targetted at "collaborators".
                             and if they were ex-army and using army weapons
                             such as mortars they weren't trained very well
                             because their success rate with standard military
                             weapons is hovering just above the "got lucky"
                             level.  These are random fucks, not ex-army.
                       \_ If there were only 100-200 people, they would've
                          been wiped out by now from attrition, or we
                          can just capture one or two and get them to
                          lead us to the rest.  The reason we have not
                          been able to do that shows that the "100-200"
                          is just the tip of a huge iceberg from which
                          acitve ones can be drawn from.
                          \_ Maybe.  Maybe not.  How many of these attackers
                             have been caught?  Zero according to US media.
        \_ WTF why haven't you been appointed Supreme Allied Commander
           a long time ago!!!
                         next bath house 'date'.
                         \_ It is almost impossible to be more arrogant than Bush
           \_ This is basic common sense.  Arrogance makes our leaders out
              of touch with reality until it splatters all over their face.
                \_ I nominate you for Secretary of Defense and five
                   star general!!!
                   \_ I don't know about five star general, but yea, I
                      will take Secretary of Defense, or better yet,
                      Commander in Chief.
                      \_ Those are positions that must be earned.  You're more
                         arrogant than anyone in the administration.  We'd all
                         be seriously fucked for years to come if some ninny
                         like you had any say in anything more than which of
                         last week's dirty underwear you'll be wearing on your
                         next bath house 'date'.
                         \_ It is almost impossible to be more arrogant than
                            \_ So do you think Bush is more arrogant or more
                         \_ Yea, we all should learn from you and prostrate
                            in front of our supreme leaders Donald and Bush
                            and say everything they did were wonderful.
                            I think you will do well as a court jester
                            or eunuch.
                            \_ *laugh*  Nice attempt but no dice.  *I* was not
                               the topic here.  Idiot head above saying he
                               could do better was.  I merely observe facts.
                                \_ The media is biaaaaasssed against the right!
        \_ Yeah and if they had left it in place and the people revolted
           because this very same army was directly responsible for murdering
           tens of thousands of Iraqis then you'd be here screaming how the
           arrogant American leadership didn't listen to you when you said to
           disband the evil marauders.  It must be great to always be right,
           at least on the motd, eh?  [restored]
           \_ Wrong, I said it was a mistake right after they announced
              they are disbanding the Iraqi army wholesale.  The view that
              that there is a murderous Iraqi army distinct and seperate
              from the Iraqi people who were its victims is a naive view.
              The Iraqi army is a huge conscript army of 500000 which Saddam
              himself doesn't fully trust.  That means almost everyone (all
              the Sunnis at least) should have a family member, relative, good
              friend in the army.
              \_ WTF does have a family member have to do with anything?!?
                 How exactly do you figure that the average post-Saddam citizen
                 is going to be thrilled to see the Iraqi army stomping around
2003/10/31 [Reference/Military] UID:10877 Activity:kinda low
10/30   Do fighter planes still have guns? Or they ditched them for all
        missile configuration (because dog fights are rare nowadays)?
        \_ if you are talking about F-15/F16/F18/F14, yes. I think they
           got something like 3 seconds worth of machine gun ammo on them.
        \_ Yes.  Even the F-22 has an M61A2:
           \_ What I don't understand is how the F22 manages to engage
              close range with its weapons stored internally behind really
              slow doors.
              \_ The gun is mounted internally -- not behind doors.
                 As compared to a chin-gun on an AH64 or something where the
                 actual gun mechanism is mounted externally.  Internally
                 mounted cannons has been standard on fighter aircraft for
                 \_ Not the guns but the missles. The F22 sidewinders are
                    stored internally.
                    \_ "close range" for a missle is differnt than for cannon.
        \_ A friend of mine in the Air Force was telling me that the
           Vietnam Era F-4 was the only fighter plane to try to go w/o
           guns.  It was just supposed to be a missile platform.  They
           found out that was a bad idea.  And put guns on the F-4 as well.
           \_ why is this a bad idea in today's air fighting environment?
              \_ BVR (Beyond visual range) engagement is still a pipe
                 dream.  Sure, missles can engage and kill targets at long
                 distance way beyond BVR, but IFF (ID Friend/Foe (or
                 non-combantant) at those ranges is still lousy.  And once
                 you get inside BVR to Visual Range, missles are not always
                 an option: no more left, too high chance of locking onto
                 friendlies or non-combatants after enemy evasion, enemy
                 target is too close for use of missle which has a minimum
                 time from launch till arming ...
                 With the F-4, pilots fell to relying on long distance
                 kills from missles, losing high-end skill in ACM as well
                 skill in flying as part of a group of fighters.  F4 pilots
                 were exhausting their missles early in engagement, only to
                 picked off by MiG cannon fire.
                 There are also times you don't want to shoot a plane down,
                 but merely disable it or even warn it off.  You can't use
                 a missle for that -- you need cannons.
                 \_ Can guns or cannons on fighters shoot in directions other
                    than straight forward?  In movies like Top Gun, the pilots
                    in dog fights have to try hard to point their jets at the
                    enemy jet before firing the guns.  Why don't they just make
                    guns that can swing?
                    \_ Well, there's two main problems.  With aricraft moving
                       in excess of mach 1, side mounted guns are almost
                       useless.  Rear mounted guns assume that another pilot
                       has moved into the classic kill position, and no pilot
                       would willingly allow this.  You also wouldn't want
                       big protrusions on a plane that is supposed to fly
                       in excess of mach 1.5 -- like a turret mounted gun,
                       for example.  This would disturb the aerodynamics of
                       the aircraft far too much to be controllable.  There's
                       a reason that most weapons are either mounted
                       internally or are aerodynamic themselves (ie,
                    \_ So that pilots can split their concentration between
                       guiding their high-speed planes at the same time while
                       trying to adjust their heavy swinging guns to point at
                       the rapidly moving target while conserving their 3 sec
                       worth of ammunition?
                       \_ Naturally, intelligent computer systems would auto-
                          track and destroy both planes and incoming missiles,
                          and never shoot down your wingmen.
                          \_ Oh, that's right - using "tried and true"
                             windows XP technology, right?
                             \_ Go OTS Technology!  Oh yeahhhh!
                          \_ uh huh.  yeah, sure
                    \_ Early revisions of the Phantom F4 had wing-mounted
                       cannon pods to make up for the lack of an internal
                       cannon.  These proved to be useless as discussed.
                       It wasn't until the F4E that it got an internal
                       cannon and stopped sucking.
                 kills from missles, losing high-end skill in ACM that
                 were necessary as BVR IFF was even worse then than now.
2003/10/15-16 [Reference/Military] UID:10641 Activity:moderate
10/15   So, how would "everyone being required to own and carry a gun with
        them at all times" logic have prevented a crime like the shooting
        of the girl answering a door in Richmond?  Oh wait, being poor and
        not white, she got what she deserved.
        \_ Everyone on the block would've gunned him down after it happened.
           \_ Only in your John Woo Cowboy fantasies.
              \_ This happens every day, and not just in NRA literature.
                 There was a recent story in SF Chronicle about an old guy
                 putting a bullet through a robber from his .38 revolver.
                 \_ you know what happens every day?  people in America get
                    shot.  Gun violence rate 5 times any other industrialized
                    \_ Can you provide a URL corroborating this?  I'm
                       interested in learning more.  TIA
                    \_ I wonder how the violence rate compares. The regular,
                       all-inclusive violence rate, not just the gun one.
           \_ Everyone shoots fer $#!+. More broken windows and maybe another
              accidental death or two.
        \_ As if you gave enough balanced details to let anyone make a call.
        \_ he would have been stopped at 1 death
2003/9/25-26 [Reference/Military] UID:10334 Activity:low
9/25    I'll post this here but you'll probably just delete it.  Ah futility!
        Michael Moore responds to criticisms of facts in Bowling for
        \_ One word : MOVE
           \_ Uh, is this some sort of code language I'm not supposed to
              \_ Yeah, how about another one : Don't call 911.
                 \_ 911 is a joke in your town
                    \_  Yeah, the real number is 912
                 \_ D00D U GUYZ R s0 fUNNi
        \_ Why would anyone delete anything from Michael Moore?  He's a total
           riot.  As soon as they medicate him and he starts making sense it
           might get interesting.
2003/9/22-23 [Reference/Military] UID:10285 Activity:kinda low
9/22    Anyone watch History Channel's Greatest Match in History last night?
        They compared the ME-109 vs. Sabercats and AK47 vs. M16s. A lot of
        pros and cons, etc. To recap, there was a motd post on AK vs. M16s,
        and according to the show M16 was much better on paper, but in
        real life combat esp. in close range jungle and sand type gorrela
                       I'm normally not one to care too much about _/
                       spelling, but the word is guerilla.  Try to
                       get it close to right.
        type warfare the AKs were better even though it was a pretty low
        tech weapon. Here is the show's summary:
        range:          M16 better
        accuracy:       M16
        weight:         M16
        reliability:    AK47 (can shoot even dirty whereas M16s jam)
        penetration:    AK47 (penetrates 2 4x4 block, M16 can't penetrate)
        availability:   AK47 (parts easy to repair, make, readility available)
        In the end they have their own weaknesses and strengths, and
        depending on terrain/conditions/etc one could be better than the
        \_ The M16 is the worst assault rifle currently in service, possibly
           tying with that horrible bullpup thing the british use.
           \_ You know that's funny only cause their elite SAS use M-16s
              But their own regular army use SA80(L85A1).
           The soviets did the right thing with the AK and copied the
           Sturmgewehr 44, the first assault rifle ever made.  (Incidentally,
           the moniker 'sturm gewehr', or 'assault rifle' was coined by
           Hitler himself).  The germans always did know how to make guns.
           You will notice that most good assault rifles out and about are
           either copies of the AK (and by extension the sturmgewehr) or
           are made by the swiss.
             -- ilyas
           \_ Still do. See the H&Ks. Very nice urban assault.
        \_ And you take their word for it because..?  If you live outside
           this communist state of Kalifornia, get one of each yourself
           and find out. I managed to do so before the ban and I would
        \_ I'd take an AK47 over an M16 for anything less than ideal
           circumstances. Of course, I think hunting in CA as pretty much
           "ideal" conditions.
           \_ "It's coming right for us!"  Rat-a-tat-tat  --Uncle Jimbo
        \_ whoever said the M16 was good anyway?  I'll take a silenced M4A1
           carbine anyday over those ak47 wh0r32!1!!
           \_ Dood, the M4 is just a M16 as a carbine and different stock.
              \_ so trolled
             \_ anyone who has both knows it's a lot more complicated
                than that. part of it is 5.56 M855 is less than ideal
                on soft targets under the influence at close distances
        \_ Americans in Iraq using AK-47's:
          \_ this is news cuz? it happened in Nam also. Later they
             forbid this except for SOF like SEALs
             \_ Too many friendly fire problems.
        \_ They call a show on AK-47 vs. M16 "Greatest Match in History"?
2003/9/10 [Reference/Military] UID:10130 Activity:nil 50%like:29528
9/9     Fighting censorship!  MOTD RESTORED.
2003/9/5 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:10086 Activity:nil
9/4     Rather than building midget useless weak carriers that require
        vertical take off planes (which have worse performance than
        non-vertical take off planes), why don't the Brits just build a
        bigger carrier?
        \_ JSF
        \_ Because they can't afford one and putting all your eggs in one
           basket is both militarily stupid and inflexible.
        \_ The British have the right idea.  Vertical takeoff craft which
           are computer-piloted....  That's the way to go.
           \_ Until the FoF system tags a 747 landing at O'Hare as an
              incoming enemy bomber and kills a few hundred people.  The day
              they can take the people out of wars is the beginning of a
              perpetual war which won't end until all industrial bases are
              destroyed on one side or someone uses WMD on a large scale.
              \_ It's IFF
                 \_ Friend or Foe, thanks.
              \_ Watched T3, did you?
                 \_ Yes, but you apparently didn't.  That wasn't the message
                    in T3 at all.
        \_ it worked in the Falklands.  Also, the U.S. marines use Harriers
           too.  Nod to the can't afford comment above.
           \_ USMC has a pretty good reason for using Harriers.  As an
              expeditionary force, they can't rely on the existence of
              proper runways everywhere.
           \_ worked damned well in the Falklands actually.  OP, the Brits
              don't have any current concerns about taking on the USAF.  They
              don't need a USAF quality AF.  They just need enough to pretend
              to be a world power and smash second world Argentina quality
              nations every so often or back us up here and there for good PR.
2003/8/25 [Politics/Domestic, Reference/Military] UID:29461 Activity:nil
8/25    "U.S. Troops Use Confiscated Iraqi AK-47s" (Yahoo News)
        Americans don't like American cars, and now Americans don't like
        American guns.  Sigh, American engineering sucks.
        \_ Okay, a couple things here.  First of all, the M4 is a lamefuck
           fad -- it's a carbine of the m16.  This means the short barrel
           reduces the velocity of the rounds below their functional
           velocity, seriously degrading the weapon's effectiveness.
           Using the M4 as point of reference for the M16a2 is misleading.
           Also, as another poster said below, what in the world are tankers
           doing patrolling on the ground?  They're taking ak's because tank
           crews aren't equipped to do infantry work, so they have to make do.
           As a last point, neither the M4 nor the M16a2 have full auto --
           so the scout talking about selecting the AK for its full auto
           capability over the M4 is deceptive.  I think this is more of a
           statement about the tanker's (lack of) training, and less about
           the weapon itself.  When it comes small arms, look at what the
           elite forces guys use as a better metric -- not some non infantry
           trained jeep jockey.
           \_ WTF??!?  I 0wn3z A11 UV U with S1L3nc3D M4A1 in CS 411 7H3
              71M3!  F*CK1NG AK47 WH0R3Z!!1!
        \_ We still have the best porn in the world! -AC
        \_ American logistics planning sucks.  I can't believe they're
           forcing tankers to do infantry work.
        \_ they say that AK47s jam less. Less than WHAT? M4? M16? Out of
           curiousity is there a benchmark for firearms like the ones for
           CPUs (SPEC INT/FLOAT), where we can look at the stopping power
           rating, jam rate, so on so forth?
           \_ They weren't quoting specs.  They were quoting soldiers, and
              the comments were based on reputation.  And yes, "less than
              the m4 or m16" is probably a decent reading of it.  And if
              you want benchmarks, try google
           \_ The AK series is just a well designed, rugged, simple to
              operate and simple to assemble machine-rifle. There are
              only half a dozen parts to the whole assembly, which is
              why it's cheap to manufacture, and easy to take care of.
              The concept is the same as  the T80 tank. However, it
              doesn't have the same stopping power as an M16.
2003/8/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:29349 Activity:moderate
8/13    I'm nearing 30 and I want to do something more fulfilling with my
        life. I've designed/coded/debugged/sysadmed/whatever my entire life
        \_ Go to the Caribbean and open a bar.  -John
        \_ Go skydive.
        and I just need a break. Has anyone joined the army/navy/marines
        as late as 30? How about the reservers? Please share your experience.
        \_ The military is not fulfilling.  End troll.
        \_ You can join the military as long as you are under age 35, so you
           still have time. It depends on why you want to join. If you want to
           be gung-ho and are fulfilled in life by taking other lives, consider
           the special forces, ranger, seals, etc. If you want to step back
           just a tad, consider the marines (note: if you leave the marines,
           they'll never let you re-join). If you want to hate life, join the
           army. If you like the water and staying in tight quarters with other
            \_ you can't join the rangers or SF without joining the army.
           men, join the navy (or ymca). If you want to do something more
           cerebral, and they are picky about applicants, join the air force.
           Actually, the military might be a good start in life (e.g., getting
           away from home, seeing the world, picking up skills and girls), but
           most ppl that join later in life have tended to want a steady job
           and a pension in 20 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. If I had
           to do it all over again, I'd pick the air force. - ex-army guy
           \_ Lots of military people on my gf's side of the family, including
              West Pointers. Most are Army and at least two made it as high
              as colonel. Their advice: Air Force. Much cushier and the people
              are smarter. Their bases are also in better locations. --dim
              \_ But in the Air Force only one out of who knows how many
                 actually gets to fly a plane.  The dumb ones don't get to do
                 \_ sure but everyone gets a chance to fly Pipers and Cessnas
                    at the airforce flying club.
        \_ Join the Reserves. If you find you really like it, you can always
           go active duty. If you don't, it is only one weekend a month.
                \_ 1 weekend a month in IraqIranistan.
                   \_ Oh yeah, I forgot. If you join the reserves with Bush
                      in power, you are likely to get pulled into active
                      duty and deployed overseas. Maybe not...
                      \_ And get paid less for it. Pentagon to back off pay
                         increase of $75 a month for "imminent danger pay" and
                         $150 a month in "family separation allowances."
2003/8/14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29344 Activity:very high
8/13    I just found out that the US Military shifted from using lead bullets
        to depleated uranium so that they can penetrate better. While lead
        is pretty bad environmentally, how about depleated uranium?
        \_ you're kidding about the how bad part, right?
           \_ DU is bad, mmmkay
        \_ DEPLEATED!  I mean BALEETED!
           \_ DELTEATED!  ...Del taco?
        \_ URL?  And no lead is not an environmental catastrophy.  There were
           200 bullets fired for every soldier killed in WWII yet I've never
           seen a report about mass lead poisoning in France, Russia, or
           Germany.  Troll?
        \_ DU decays into lead eventually, so you've got the worst of both.
           \_ If it decays into lead then there's no uranium, so...?
              \_ uh, the fact that it decays means it's giving off radation,
                  \_ Yes, it radioactively decays off its energy until each
           diameter or more. Such as the out of the GAU-8 or CIWS or the
                     uranium atom changes to lead which is stable.
                  \_ And you're surrounded by all sorts of radiation from
                     womb to grave and somehow you survive, yes?
        \_ That's not true. DU is generally used for rounds 20 mm in
           diameter or more. Such as the out of the CIWS or GAU-8 or the
           the main gun on a M1 tank. As for small arms, like the M-16,
           there are plans to replace that with a tungsten or other non-lead
           core sometime in 2008. But the standard M855 currently has
           steel tip with a lead core.
        \_ Also, DU, having a multi-billion-year half-life, is radioactive
           only in the mildest sense.  Most lead used is as/more radioactive
           than DU.
            \_ Yes DU is mild, but surely more radioactive than lead.
                \_ It's not the radioactivity that is harmful.  The dust
                   can get into the water supply, or be inhaled, and it's
                   toxic-- more toxic than lead.
                   \_ But it's in other countries, so what?
                      \_ It's in other countries that our lying president and
                         his family can't seem to keep our military away from.
                         This means soldiers die, which is bad.
        \_ maybe the radiation is what gave the soldiers the weird Gulf
           War syndrome?
           \_ It is thought to be one of many contributing factors.
              \_ Good use of the passive.  "It is thought".  That's good.
        \_ This is a very very old news. DU bullets were used even during
           the Desert Storm I. I'd like also to point out that they're used
           only in certain types of armor piercing weapons that are used to
           destroy tanks and other armored vehicles (including the the 30mm
           gun in the A-10 attack plane)
           \_ nearly all munitions for M1 Abrams are DU, as well as the armor.
              tomahawks are DU tipped.
              \_ The Bradley fighting vehicle uses DU ammo for its autocannons.
                 I recently learned, much to my surprise, that a Bradley blew
                 up a few T-72s in the recent Iraq war, using it's guns, which
                 didn't seem large enough for the task...
                 I guess DU really is better. -- ilyas
        \_ Did you know the fuel the airforce uses is incredibly toxic yet
           they fly those things all over the planet?  How can we let that
           go on?
           \_ you sound like a wife of an auto mechanic who complains
              that his clothes get dirty when he is working
              \_ More like coalworkers' wife and black lung.
2003/8/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/Military] UID:29320 Activity:high
8/11    Here is a pretty lame question but after watching a few Civil War
        documentaries, I wonder why neither the confederate and union soldiers
        dig protective barriers (trenches) to minimize loss. Also given that
        the guns they used were pretty weak why they didn't hide behind
        light barriers (wooden or copper, etc). Also they could have mounted
        canons behind a movable protective shell (primitive tanks). They
        could have done a lot, but instead they fought like stoneage
        primates with guns. WTF?
        \_ Because you forget that tactics always lag behind technology in
           every war. I mean, haven't you ever heard of the expression that
           we are always fighting the last war? It means that tacticians
           are using old techniques in a changing battlefield.
           Technically speaking, you could say that the Civil War could've
           just been postponed for 80 years until we had the bomb, then it
           would've been a on day war by just nuking Richmond.
        \_ Don't forget the Revolutionary war, where they marched in tightly
           packed formations, the better to be picked off by inaccurate musket
           fire, or the First World War, with cavalry charging the machine guns.
           Future generations would probably find our approach to war
           equally insane (what, they flew around in steel coffins which would
           explode on their own more often than from enemy fire?  WTF?).
           Maybe the problem is more essential than technology or military
           doctrine...  -- ilyas
           \- well there are lots of norms that in one sense seem irrational.
              it's "legal" to spray the other side with automatic weapon
              fire, but i believe it is not legal to use a powerful laser to
              blind the enemy. does the CA law on speed traps make sense?
              it seems like a cop gets in more trouble if they scientifically
              measure your speed. --psb
              \_ there is rational behind soldier marched in tighly packed
                 formation, as muskets are so inaccurate that they need a
                 packed firepower to do decent damage.  What was changed
                 in Civil War was the wide spread use of RIFLES.  Neither
                 the south nor the north was prepared for this.   If you look
                 at the photos taken on siege of Richmond, you will see that
                 both North and South started to dig trenches for their cover.
                 Too bad Europeans didn't learn anything from it, thus, they
                 repeated the same mistakes 40-50 years later.
                 \_ I agree with you regarding muskets being inaccurate,
                    and that accurate rifling was unexpected.
2003/8/8-9 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:29284 Activity:kinda low 50%like:29280
      That campaign site is a gold mine.
        \_ Old news.  The question everyone wants to know is...does the
           action figure come with a 1:6 scale cup to memorialize the drug
           test he skipped out on in 1973?
           \_ Just how many drug test have YOU skipped out on ?
              \_ None.  AND I haven't run for president.
2003/6/25 [Reference/Military, Computer/HW, Computer/SW] UID:28836 Activity:nil
        So they find a barrel of beans in a warehouse and call it a bio
        weapons ingredient.  These people are nuts.  I'm tired of being
        lied to!
        \_ But they're CASTOR beans.  They could grind them up for their
           oil and give an entire city block the runs!  Imagine the chaos.
2003/4/19 [Reference/Military] UID:28172 Activity:nil
4/19    US marines hunt gazelles with rocks.
        \_ Ananova will also tell you about the latest UFO landings.  This
           story can be read at more respectable sites with the whole story
           and not the typical silly ananova summary.
2003/4/19-20 [Transportation/Car, Reference/Military, Transportation/Motorcycle] UID:28169 Activity:moderate
4/19    Has anyone checked out the new RRs? I've been looking at the specs
        and besides seating position, tail pipe, and the engine, I really
        don't see any difference between the F4is.
        \_ The F15E is vastly superior but the F18 is carrier capable and
           while prefer the F16 for air to air.  The F4 is way out of date
           and hasn't been flown by a real air force for decades.
           \_ wankers
        \_ The CBR-RR has much more extreem seating, sharper steering
           (Bike had it tankslapper on them), and is a bit lighter.
           For the track, the RR is probably considerably (1/2 a second?)
           better.  For the street, the F4i is undoubtedly superior, for
           the same reasons the RR is designed to be better on the track.
                \_ why do I have a feeling that the RRs are not going to
                   sell as well as the F4i's since most people don't do
                   track and don't care about that 1/2 sec difference?
2003/4/14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:28111 Activity:nil
4/13    The US is at war with Syria.  The US has always been at war
        with Syria.
2003/4/10 [Reference/Military] UID:28072 Activity:high
4/11    For you military types.  Is there a material in existence that
        could practically protect military helicopters from small-arms
        fire? -allenp
        \_ Yes.  Napalm.  -John
           \_ Ha Ha. Hello John, Napalming a whole battlefield is
              *NOT* practical.  I was wondering if armored helicopters
              exist, or do they cost too much or move too slow. -allenp
              \_ in Vietnam, they first laid fire over much of the battle
                 field, then they let the Hueys come after them.  Cobra
                 helicopter escorts.
                 \_ I stand corrected. -allenp
        \_ Yes, aluminum.
           \_ Aluminum?  How does it help? -allenp
              \_ It absorbs the ballistic energy, like like any kind
                 of armor. A 7.62mm bullet will not penetrate 12" of
                 of armor. A 7.62mm bullet will not penetrate 2" of
                 aluminum. I guess they are using ceramic more now:
        \_ many helicopter gunships do have armor.  The Hind, Apache, ...
           \_ Apache armor:
2003/4/7 [Reference/Military] UID:28014 Activity:high
4/7     Chemical Ali is now Fertilizer Ali
        \_ Illusions and foul deceit and lies of the evil imperialists!  I'm
           going to laugh my ass off if there's a press conference and he
           goes off again about how the US is getting crushed, blah, blah and
           then a Humvee pulls up and some American marines get out and wave.
        \_ Illusions and foul deceit and lies of the evil
              offensive.  People always lie when their arse is getting kicked.
           imperialists!  I'm going to laugh my ass off if there's a
           press conference and he goes off again about how the US is
           getting crushed, blah, blah and then a Humvee pulls up and
           some American marines get out and wave.
           \_ That's exactly what happened in Vietnam during the Hue
              offensive.  People always lie when their arse is getting
              \_ reference?  That sounds funny.
              \_ I'm wondering which way you think the lying was going?
                 US -> public or VC -> public or media -> public?
2003/4/3-4 [Reference/Military] UID:27966 Activity:moderate
4/3     Patriotic, religious hummel ware!  Isn't he adorable with that M-16?
        \_ that's sick.
        \_ that's awesome.  Is there a link to buy one?  Will they send it to
           a difference address from the CC owner as a gift?
           \_ Purchase here:
              Dunno about the gift shipping thing.  If you're a true Patriot
              and not some flouridating Commie you'll ship it to your own
              home with pride!
              \_ I'm buying a complete set for my entire family and my
                 church/company!  They'll love it!
2003/4/3-4 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27963 Activity:very high
4/2     All these discussion regards to weapon of mass destruction.
        Did we use Sarin gas during the Vietnam War?
        \_ no, we used agent orange.  Fucked up the jungle good. And our
           own soldiers.
        \_ all signs point to maybe
        \_ No.  Peter Arnett got busted and fired for saying so in 1998 with
           zero proof and CNN retracted the whole story.  The guy has quite a
           journalistic record of excellence.
           \_ "Zero proof"? How about the testimony of multiple sources,
              including two military officers? The only reason CNN retracted
              the story was political pressure.
              \_ bullshit.  URL.  2 military officers?  The ones he was
                 quoting that he hadn't even met?  Or maybe it was the
                 American officer he claimed got gassed and was dead yet
                 was there in studio 25+ years later to confront him with
                 his own lies?  You're fucking nuts or intentionally ignorant.
                 Or maybe I just got trolled... damn.  Trolled again.
                    We certainly used some kind of gas stronger than
                    CS. Perhpas not Sarin, but the Army will not admit
                    to what exactly it was.
              \_ exactly.  the point is, we used weapon of mass destruction,
                 and we are not particularly proud of it (remember NY
                 Metro Museum wanted to do a exibition on 50 annualversiry
                 of Hiroshima, but dropped the idea because political
                 pressure?).  Japan used chemical / biological weapon
                 at a scale which makes Iraq looks like a child play,
                 and we forgive them.  If we take out this issue of
                 WMD, what else you can think of to support US's war
                 against Iraq?
                 \_ exactly not.  we didn't use nerve gas in vietnam and you
                    have zero proof of it anywhere.
                 \_ Governments in Japan and Germany are not the same as
                    those in power during WW2.  We did not forgive those
                    war-time goverments; we hanged them.
                    \_ go back to your history book.  We forgave Japan.
                       \_ Give me one source.
                          _/ (reformatted to fit)
                    \_ Emperor Shoowa stayed in throne until 1989.
                       \_ General Hideki Tojo danced at the end of a rope
                          in 1948 after an extensive trial that laid all
                          blame at his feet.
                       \_ On a powerless throne because it was easier than
                          losing a half million more people on both sides
                          doing an ugly mainland invasion.
                 \_ Unit 731 of Japan:
                 \_ "JAPAN ADMITS DISSECTING WW-II POWs"
                    "The prisoners were eight American airmen ...... torn apart
                    organ by organ while they were still alive."
                    \_ And?  Never doubted the claim, just the forgiveness.
                        \_ Don't forget they also ate their POWs,
                           including Aussies and Americans.
                           \_ They were hungry.  Have you no compassion??
        We forgave them after we hanged a bunch of them.  -John
        \_ We placed blame on certain people and hanged those people. This
           does not imply forgiveness; it implies assigning singular blame
           and punishment for crimes committed on behalf of a nation.
        \_ And after we demilitarized them and after we
        dismantled their government and after we sort
        occupied their country and after we nuked two
        of their cities....
        \_ Yup.  You want a job done right the first
           time around.  In the case of the Germans,
           we didn't.  What's all this about nukes
           anyway?  We haven't nuked anyone in years.
           Nor have the Israelis or the Brits or the
           French or even the Rooskies.  Nukes all
                \_ not if some giant fuckheads in the Pentagon
                   and Congress have their way with implementing
                   small scale nukes.  I hate everyone right now.
                 \_ Because he's there. Reason enough.
                \_ Who let the Jews get nukes?!
                   \_ Clinton, who else?! What do you think that Monica
                      Lewinsky was really looking for in Billy's pants?
        \_ Biological and chemical warfare covers more than what most people
           think (ie. death by disease or exposure to toxin). In Vietnam,
           Agent Orange was used, but mostly as a biological warfare tool.
           The chem part was "accidental" or unintended. The bio part was to
           remove jungle and destroy crops. Starvation is bio-warfare. The
           attacks GWI and GWII vs. water delivery and treatment sites, while
           \_ ageng 0 was a weed killer for jungles to remove enemy cover
           called infrastructure attacks, are biological in nature. It can
           be argued that while not using a WMD, the US is using biowarfare.
           \_ Then can I also say shooting an enemy with a gun is biowarfare,
              since it stops his biological function?
              \_ Hell, is feeding someone Mexican food biological warfare?
                 How about milk if you're lactose intolerant?
           \_ Agent O was not to destroy crops.  Sheesh.  It's easier and
              cheaper to kill peasants if you want to stave out the country.
           \_ agent 0 was a weed killer for jungles to remove enemy cover
2003/4/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27958 Activity:high
4/2     Total number of US military deaths in Vietnam: 58,135
        Present total US deaths in current gulf conflict(*): 44
        The current conflict has been running for about 1 week.
        Extrapolating in a completely ridiculous fashion, we can conclude
        that the current conflict may continue for another 1321 weeks
        (25 years) before we see Vietnam's level of casualties.
        (*) Let's be honest here, Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a police
        action, so we'd be hard pressed to call the current conflict a 'war'
        \_ You could really not run a war worse than Vietnam.  The civilians
           in charge at the time were complete morons.
           \_ Agree with the first part, but you seem to imply that our current
              civilians in charge are not, in fact, morons.
              \_ Maybe they're not morons, but morAns.
                 \_ Notice that his T-shirt says "Cardinals"?  That explains
                    \_ What do you have against people from St. Louis?
                       \_ It could always be the Arizona Cardinals...
                          \_ St. Louis?  Arizona?  I was referring to Stanfurd.
                             \_ And that would be Cardinal, sans 's'
                                \_ So are we Cal Bears or Cal Bear?
        \_ Vietnam was a war.  You degrade the men who served and the people
           who died by mincing words like that.  Police action is when a cop
           pulls you over.  Soldiers, platoons, mines, ambushes... that's war.
           \_ I meant no slight to the fine men and women who served and
              gave their boides and lives in Vietnam.  I was, however taking
              a shot at the gub'mint of de good ole US of A.  Vietnam was not
              a war.  No decleration of war ratified by Congress was ever
              made. -op
              \_ That's hardly a worthy definition.  Wasn't the war powers
                 clause (prez can wage war for 90 days etc...) passed in 1974
                 in response to the war?  It does not take congressional action
                 to wage war, just generals and soldiers.
                 \_ Actually, the war powers act was written to LIMIT the powers
                    of the president.  It didn't give him more power to wage war,
                    it said that instead of being able to do whatever he wanted,
                    he had to consult congress after at most 90 days.
                    \_ Agreed, I meant that it was the result of Congress not
                       liking the fact that a president can wage war without any
                       official support.  The relevant part was the fact that
                       they considered what the executive branch had done was
                       a war.
              \_ Depending on how one looks at it, Congress did give permission
                 to make war with Vietnam with the passing of the Gulf of
                 Tonkin resolution. Similarily GWII has been argued as a
                 continuation of GWI (ie. the war never ended) or as an
                 extension of the War Against Terrorism resolution (it made
                 Afghanistan possible too).
                 \_ But the Tonkin incident never happened.  Still, you can
                    only call Vietnam a war.
                    \_ Yep and yep. Saddam wasn't part of Al-Queda and you
                       see how well that worked out for Iraq.
               \_ Except the War Powers Act is clearly unconstitutional to
                  begin with.
                  \_ True, but then you have to get the courts to kill it.
        \_ Good god, it wasn't mean to be a discussion of the fucking war
           powers act you morons.  It was meant to be a moderately interesting,
           albeit wholly unscientific factoid. -op
           \_ you're the moron who said it wasn't a war.
2003/4/1-2 [Reference/Military] UID:27946 Activity:moderate
4/1     Put back the URL's for military numbering systems!
        \_     How Are Army Divisions Numbered?
               Question on Military Unit Sizes
2003/4/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27941 Activity:nil
4/1     It's raining Land Rovers in Iraq. I guess this is what happens
        once you run out of ammo:,,30000-12278226,00.html
        \_ I can't seem to get "<DEAD>"<DEAD> from ANYWHERE.
2003/4/1 [Reference/Military] UID:27940 Activity:nil
4/1     How Are Army Divisions Numbered?
        Question on Military Unit Sizes
        ... more than you may want to know. -ecchang
2003/4/1 [Reference/Military] UID:27934 Activity:nil
3/31    Where's a good website to read definitions of army terms and compare
        an "Infantry Division",  "Armored Cavalry", "Mechanized" etc,
        as well as get definitions on all the military jargon?
        \_ I think some of the terms you mentioned above are obsolete in
           terms of their original meaning due to the fast pace of
           military technology changes.
        \_ How Are Army Divisions Numbered?
           Question on Military Unit Sizes
           ... more than you may want to know.
2003/3/25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Military] UID:27835 Activity:moderate
3/24    Slain Marine Immigrated to U.S., Alone, as a Teen
        (hero from Guatemala died for America)
        \_ what? no one is going to say how we exploited this poor immigrant?
           where are the leftists when you need a bad laugh?
2003/3/21 [Reference/Military] UID:27791 Activity:nil
3/21    The U.S.' first combat deaths were soldiers who were literally
        fighting for oil:
2003/2/4 [Reference/Military] UID:27301 Activity:moderate
2/3     All you pansy libs, take a lesson from your comrades:
        Five arrested after second ax, hammer attack on U.S.
        Navy plane in Ireland
        \_ Use explosives for better effect. Doesn't the IRA have leftovers?
2003/1/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Reference/Military] UID:27175 Activity:high
1/21    Your favorite former weapons inspector gets arrested for trying to lure
        16 year old he met online to meet him.  I'm sure he's a decent guy who
        just means well.  Probably got confused and thought SH's WMD were
        possibly hidden under her skirt or something.  Another Clinton era
        flunky goes down in flames.
        \_ i think the lesson here is that if you are going to be an outspoken
           critic of the administration, don't go trolling for sex with minors
           \_ no.  the lesson here is don't go trolling for sex with minors
           \_ No.  the lesson here is if you are an outspoken critic of the
              administration you will get framed for trolling for sex with
              minors.  Duh!
              \_ You think he was framed?  Where can I get some of what you're
                 smoking?  Re-read Catcher in the Rye recently?
              \_ Oh come on, tell me you wouldn't want to play "find the
                 weapons stash" with a 16 y.o. hottie, if you had the chance.
                 \_ 20 year olds are too damn young for me these days.  I don't
                    think I could get it up for a 16 year old.
                    \_ For me, it all depends on the body and then look.
                 \_ ok then: I wouldn't want to play "find the weapons stash"
                    with a 16 y.o. hottie, or any other 16 y.o.
                       \_ Maybe I should repost the pic of the Raelian high
                          priest clone-aid woman for you?
2002/12/24 [Computer/SW/Security, Reference/Military] UID:26898 Activity:nil
11/22   [stupid airport security thread deleted.]
        \_ mandatory firearm safety training for everyone.  give every
           passenger a gun with rubber bullets.  terrorism problem solved.
        \_ Sheep
2002/12/20 [Reference/Military] UID:26870 Activity:nil
        Marine shoots would-be carjacker.  Carjacker scumbag dead at scene.
        No charges filed.  Marine takes bullet in face.
2002/12/7 [Reference/Military] UID:26741 Activity:low
12/6    Is an AK-47 the same thing as a Kalashnikov?
        \_ Sort of.  There are several AK's, but you're essentially correct.
           Kalashnikov is the manufacturer, and they make several versions
           of the weapon.
           \_ No.  Tula Arms factory (and lots of other places) are the
              manufacturers.  Michail Kalashnikov is the designer.
              \_ Yes, I stand corrected.  Gracias.
        \_ We put the "K" in "AK."
        \_ Just go to
           \_ thanks! that had just the info i was looking for.
2002/11/15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26550 Activity:kinda low
11/15   wether you are for or against gun control, you should listen to
        this, just as a classic example of propoganda:
        \_ would it be asking too much for people posting csua shortlinks
           to describe the data type - in this case, mp3?   And then for
           a summary, not a vague topic reference?
2002/11/13-14 [Reference/Military] UID:26536 Activity:very high
11/13   In the "Black Hawk Down" operation in Somalia, why did the US start
        the assault in daytime instead of at night?  Didn't they think the
        special forces have a much bigger advantage in darkness?
        \_ The guy(s) that they were trying to catch were elusive and erratic.
           The intelligence that the US Army had was only good for a very short
           duration, so they had to move ASAP.  BTW, the units that were
           employed Rangers, Delta, Air Force PJ's, maybe a couple of Navy
           SEALS, but no Special Forces.
           duration, so they had to move ASAP.  BTW, the force that was
           employed consisted of Army Rangers, Delta (NOT the same as Special
           \_ I think that distinction is pretty pedantic, the
              army says Delta is part of the special forces.
              \_ Probably true, but the distiction still exists.
           Forces), Air Force PJ's, and maybe a couple of Navy SEALS, but
           no Army Special Forces troops were used (AFAIK).
                \_ It's hard to tell people apart at night.  Which leads us
                   to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians" school of law
                   enforcement.  -John
                   \_ they didn't bring night-vision equipment
                      \_ They did.  There were just so arrogant that they left
                         the goggles at the base instead of bringing them along
                         onto the choppers.
                         \_ that's what I mean.  They left it behind at the
        \_ So a few more grunts die. That's what they signed up for anyway.
           \_ Not only a few more of us died, the whole operation failed.  They
              failed to capture the warload.  Personally I think it's a huge
              \_ hold on there, they did capture the warlord.
                 the operation was a success.
              humiliation to US.  The most elite military force in the
              strongest country in the world initiated a surprise attack on,
              not even the govt troops, but merely a warlord in a small
              third-world African country, and was defeated big-time, and then
              had to be rescued by regular troops of another third-world
              country.  And the warlord didn't escape.  We escaped.
              \_ This is woefully erroneous.  The operation was in fact a
                 success -- they got the targets.  The attack was only nominally
                 a surprise (lookouts near the base routinely signaled any
                 military action and burned tires to alert the locals).  The
                 base was not hidden from view of the locals, and in fact
                 endured regular mortar attacks (in fact, the Delta guy depicted
                 in the movie who helped Stebbins was killed by a mortar blast
                 only a few days after the battle).  Additionally, the attack
                 occurred in the middle of one of the largest arms markets in
                 that region of the world, while the locals were hyped up on the
                 drug khat which they routinely chewed at that time of the day.
                 Finally, the rescue by "another third-world country" was a
                 rescue by a UN team which had ARMORED units, which Clinton
                 denied the US contingent.  Read some history you moron.
              \_ And soon, that same army is going to fight for
                 Truth, Justice, and the American Way in Iraq!
                 U S A!  U S A!
              \_ The operation was setup to capture not the top warlord
                 (whatever his name is) but several of his leutenants.  Some of
                 the most interesting of them managed to escape.  One simply
                 walked out of building when it all started, called a taxi car,
                 and fled. This is something that the book mentions but not the
                 movie AFAIK.
              \_ Because for some reason we actually care what the rest of the
                 socialists and fascists in the third world (and France) think
                 of us so instead of doing The Right Thing (wasting the whole
                 place) we played this pansy assed Clinton bullshit boy-with-
                 his-toys crap and tried to avoid killing civilians while
                 trying to accomplish a ridiculous and meaningless mission with
                 inadequate resources and support from Washington.  Thank you.
2002/11/13-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26532 Activity:very high
11/13   Iraq accepts weapons inspections:
        What is the point of weapons inspections? Does anyone think
        that the inspectors will actually find the nuclear/chem/bio
        weapons that Iraq has?
        \_ Whether they find anything or not isn't really the concern -- of
           course they will.  The real question is how long will Saddam
           continue to cooperate?  This seems like another delaying tactic,
           appeasing the UN in the short term....
                \_ Which leads us to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians"
                   school of law enforcement.  -John
        \_ Why not? The first weapons inspectors team found a bunch.
           \_ They've had years to hide stuff.
              \_ Their own people will spill the beans on a lot of it.
                 There's no such thing as a real secret if more than 1
                 person knows it.
                 \_ So where is bin Laden?  Is he dead or alive?  Did
                    Monica swallow?  Are you really an idiot?  Presumably
                    more than 1 person know the answers to these questions.
                    Please enlighten us.
                    \_ bin laden is alive and in pakistan, monica swallowed,
                       and the above poster is an idiot.
2002/11/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Reference/Military] UID:26433 Activity:high
11/5    Hah!  I always knew Reagan's Starwars could *never* work!  What a
        ridiculous waste of money and we got *nothing* for it.
        \_ Knocking out artillery with photons != missile defense.  This is
           a different weapon.  Congrats to the engineering team.
        \_ are you really this stupid?
           \_ no, i always thought of myself as "that" stupid.  got any other
              stupid-questions-not-worth-asking that you'd like to ask?
                \_ Dear Moron, look up the work "rhetorical" in the dictionary
                   \_ wow pretty snappy for a freshman.  were you the "smart
                      kid" in your high school?
                   \_ Clearly he didn't agree with the implied answer.
        \_ What part of the article says that Reagan's "Star Wars" could never
           \_ the sarcasm part?
           \_ the "are you really this stupid" part is that shooting down one
              thing, that you fired yourself, doesn't say anything about
              whether you could shoot down everything that a particular enemy
              wants to shoot at you.  It's obvious you can't.
              \_ Ah yes, the man who could fly before he could crawl....
                \_ how much does a high-tech defense laser with missile
                   tracking guidance system cost?  how much does an artillery
                   shell cost?
                   \_ You're looking at the wrong numbers.  If the laser costs
                      say $150m per unit but can limit the effectiveness of
                      enemy artillery by say 25% then it's easily worth it.
                      It'll break enemy morale to see their shells shot out of
                      the air and the technology will be useful for other
                      things like oh say killing 100% of enemy artillery units
                      in LOS for a few kilometers.  Would you prefer our troops
                      get blasted by 100% of enemy artillery instead of 75%?
                      \_ are you really this stupid?
                         \_ Obviously the answer is yes. Why do you keep asking?
                         \_ "There you go again!"  Do you really think this is
                            some sort of genius quality reply?  Obviously you
                            must since you keep rehashing what never should
                            have been said the first time.  Take it back to
                            the sandbox.  The rest of us are in college or have
                            \_ Except tom.
                               \_ you serious?  tom never graduated?
                     \_ Where did you come up with your $150m figure? If it
                        was that cheap, it might be worth it. The truth is
                        that something like this costs Billions and won't
                        be coming down in price much soon. Not to mention
                        being far too fragile and energy consumptive for
                        actual combat duty.
                        \_ I was guestimating but I was wrong.  It was $118m.
                           It was in one of the articles on it from slashdot.
                \_ This is for ICBM, SCUDs, etc., not artillery shells.  Laser
                   detonation of a missile was demonstrated in the '70s
                   \_ 70s??  URL?
                      \_ I did it in a top secret experiment using my grade
                         school science kit. If I tell you any more I will
                         have to kill you.
                         \_ Oh Jesus!  I already knew that!  Now that you
                            spilled it the MIB will be arriving at your door
                            step in a few moments.
2002/10/29-31 [Reference/Military] UID:26356 Activity:high
10/29 on the failure of gun
        control and loss of freedoms in the UK.  Lesser side focus on a
        comparison with USA.
        \_ Fun point, whenever I get into a discussion with a British person
           about how massive CCTV surveillance and gun control have failed to
           bring their violent crime rate anywhere near under control, even
           compared to the US, they never fail to mention some study claiming
           that murder rates in the US due to gunshot wounds are only falling
           due increased US hospital trauma ward experience...  -Johnxs
           \_ watch "Bowling for Columbine". In fact, everyone: you should
              all watch "Bowling for Columbine"... this is a GREAT movie.
              And to all you NRA objectivist freaks: Its not even advocating
              gun control. EVeryone will like this movie. It will make you
2002/10/8-9 [Reference/Military] UID:26133 Activity:high
10/8    "Bowling for Columbine"  Michael Moore's latest creation.  If you
        liked "Roger & Me", you'll love this one.
        \_ Thanks. I'll go check it out. That means it's better than "Canadian
           Bacon", right?
           \_ Yeah, I'm sure it's VERY objective about gun control. I wish you
              people would consider blaming the right people, i.e. lack of
              parents, and other social safety nets, than the guns themselves.
              Back in 70's you could buy full-auto weapons in California, no
              problem, were there any Stocktons or San Ysidros or Columbines
              back then?
                \_ Michael Moore is a NRA member, grew up among and enjoys
                   shooting guns. - danh
              \_ listen dude, owning a big gun or a big SUV only goes to
                 show that you have a small penis.  You need a penile implant
                 because no assault weapon or SUV is going to enlarge your
                 self image.
              \_ I don't blame the guns at all. *And* I know how to format.
                 \_ motdformatd was here.
2002/10/8-9 [Reference/Military] UID:26128 Activity:very high
10/7    Anyone think the sniper killer is an anti-gun nut?
        \_ it's Binladen's spirit coming back to haunt us!!!
        \_ yes
        \_ no
        \_ BTW, any chance that the police will ever catch him?
        \_ There is no chance that anyone thinks that, fool.
           \_ There was one theory that the person who sent out the anthrax
              letters was one who tried in vain to convince the govt to put
              more effort into anti-bioterrorism.  So someone may also derive a
              similar theory which this sniper is someone who wants the govt to
              tighten gun control.  I think it's just some evil person who
              kills for fun.  -- yuen
              \_ who's going to ruin it for responsible gun owners.
                \_ if we all could carry, he'd be dead after the first murder
                   \_ This is my absolute favorite tongue-in-cheek anti gun
                      control argument.  God bless the NRA.
                      \_ Gov Ventura advocating arming teachers after Columbine.
                         But a better example is israel - subtract the
                         Palestinian problem - every Israeli is drafted ,
                         including women, and probably have full auto weapons
                         at home.
                         \_ At home? You have obviously never been to Isreal.
                            Many people just carry them strapped over their
                   \_ Doubtful. Those who carry can't shoot accurately past 7
                      yards in a stressful situation. Being mortally wounded
                      counts as a very stressful situation.
                   \_ Doubtful. Those who carry have handguns and even then,
                      can't shoot accurately past 7 yards in a stressful
                      situation. Being mortally wounded counts as a very
                      stressful situation.
                      \_ This also assumes that the sniper is standing in
                         plain sight for an extended period of time after
                         taking the shot.
                         \_ Not really.
              \_ Yeah and then like I was reading this thread on alt.conspiracy
                 at band camp last summer and....
                 \_ and you have the special high-caliber sniper flute, yeah?
                    \_ You to put my flute in my pussy?
        \_ Yeah, an anti-gun nut got a gun with a scope, and enough training to
           fire it accurately at long range.  Sure.  Here's a hint: even with a
           scope and tripod, it's still hard to hit your target at a good
           distance on the first shot.
           \_ given the state of gun control in MD, it would be more likely
              that he was arguing for less regulation, not more.  Neither
              seem remotely likely.
              \_ It's a she, you stupid fucking feminazi man-hater!
              \_ Both of you are fucking stupid.  It's just some psycho.  Why
                 does everything have to be some sort of fucking lame political
                 statement.  Sometimes a rampaging psycho sniper is just a
                 rampaging psycho sniper.  Sheesh!
2002/9/19-20 [Reference/Military] UID:25947 Activity:high
9/19    motd gun poll:
        i have no guns, in favor of gun control:
        i have no guns, against gun control: .
        a handgun:
        several rifles and handguns:
        various illegal assault rifles and other military hardware:
        \_ Explain how gun ownership and gun control are mutually exclusive?
           I always assumed "gun control" included such concepts as a waiting
           period and background checks, as well as required proof of safety
           training, whatever.  If you mean 'gun ban', please state it as
           such.  -John
           \_ In CA, they are the same, John.  Waiting periods hurt victims,
              and background checks stop no one - how many of the hundred of
           \_ Yeah I believe in gun control - two in the head, one in the chest.
        i own no guns, am against gun control: ..
        i own a handgun: .(6)
        i own several rifles and handguns: .
        i own various illegal assault rifles and other military hardware: .
        own bb pelet rifle with scope and have personally taken out a few
              thousands of Brady positives were prosecuted for trying?  Close
              to zero.  So they bought somewhere else.
                \_ Well then it's a broken system.  That doesn't mean that
                   keeping guns out of the hands of convicted violent
                   criminals (or at least keeping track of them), or forcing
                   people to take a safety class, is a fundamentally bad idea.
                   And I think your comment about waiting periods is a bit of
                   a stretch--please feel free to elaborate.  Don't get me
                   wrong, I own several rifles, and dislike gun bans, or
                   registration for the general public.  I just find it
                   fascinating how the pro-gun and anti-gun nuts can't seem to
                   fathom the concept of a sane middle ground.  -John
                   \_ Waiting periods operate under the premise of a
                      "cooling-off" but those that want a guns already
                      do. And those that need it, need it now - as
                      witnessed by the shop owners during the LA riots.
                      In fact, Heston got calls from his fellow anti-gun
                      actors wondering if they could lend them some of
                      his. He scoffed. [motdformatd]
                        \_ Depends whether there are more people needing
                           self-defense during riots than people in a rage
                           storming into gun shops.  I dunno, not many riots
                           here.  -John
                           \_ Maybe they could use a few.
           \_ Gun control is a firm, two handed grip.
              \_ Amen brother.
           \_ i hereby give you permission to edit the poll to wording
              you like. -op
           \_ Yeah I believe in gun control - two in the head, one in the
        I own guns but am in favor of gun control for everyone else: .
        I own no guns, am against gun control: .(4)
        I own a handgun: .(8)
        I own several rifles and handguns: .
        I own various illegal assault rifles and other military hardware: .
        I own bb pelet rifle with scope and have personally taken out a few
          noisy pets in my hood: .
        I am a weekend warrior (paintball): ..
        I am a weekend warrior (live ammo):
        I own nerf guns and/or supersoakers and my friends/coworkers and
          I take them to parks and other public places and pretend we are
          playing UT IRL: .
        Same a previous, except my nerf guns/supersoakers have been mod'ed
          with scopes and laser sights: .
        Same as previous, except my nerf guns/supersoakers with laser
          sights have been modded to fire depleted uranium and nitric acid: .
          \_ Hi Saddam!
        Same as previous, except we play in the office near our machines: ..
        Same as previous, except we're 1 month from layoffs so it doesn't
          matter what we do anyway and we're tired of foosball:
2002/9/18 [Reference/Military] UID:25928 Activity:very high
9/18    Any British here?  Why are the navy, marines and air force in Britian
        called "Royal xxx", but the army is only called "Army" instead of
        "Royal Army"?
        \_ Don't you mean Britons?
           \_ Who're the Britons?
           \_ Yeah, Britons.  Sorry.
        \_ The RN, RAF, and Royal Marines historically were formed by the
           King/Queen.  The Army was authorized and financed by the Parliment
           thus their loyalty didn't necessarily lay with the King first.
        \_ not to mention the Royal Police, Royal Jockey Club, etc ...
           \_ I don't know about the Royal Canadian Mounted Poilce, but when
              the Royal Hong Kong Police was first formed, it was only "Hong
              Kong Police".  The "Royal" part wasn't added until decades later.
        \_ I've seen it referred to as the Royal Army Corps
2002/9/5-6 [Reference/Military] UID:25782 Activity:high
9/5     Guns in cockpit bill approved 87-6.  Details to come?
        \_ Oh great, now the terrorists have guns and knives.
            \_ better than a Sidewinder up your ass
            \_ I'd rather take my chances with an armed pilot than *know*
               that I'm going to die when they aim the plane into a building
               or the USAF does a shoot down.  At least there's a chance.
            \_ almost all pilots are ex-militay and trained to kill. I'd be
               worried if a pussy liberal like you were handed a gun.
               \_ wow.  A thoroughly unfounded comment on the motd?  Moo...
        \_ Friend, air marshals already carry loaded weapons on planes, and
           have for a long time.  In fact, wasn't there just some incident
           where they went pointing them at passengers?  -John
           \_ Not enough air marshals out there....
        \_ El-Al flights have secure cockpits and guns on board (as well as
           in their terminals) and they don't have problems with terrorists.
           And I'm pretty sure the terrorists would love to hit them.
2002/7/30 [Recreation/Dating, Reference/Military] UID:25451 Activity:high
7/30    Anyone been to an asian massage parlor?  Are those places actually
        just handjob places?  Thanks.
           \_ so then are handjobs considered a form of prostitution?
        \_ I have a female friend who frequents a Thai massage place which is
           genuine and gives good massage.  But I think many of those places
           are just sex shops.
           \_ Thanks for sharing. Please use /csua/bin/me next time.
        \_ "thriving on an industry with deep roots in Asian culture" so
           they're claiming this is normal and acceptable in all asian
           counties?  Is this true?
           \_ Hostess bars (pronounced "snaku" in Japan) are very popular but
              as the article points out, only some of them are centres for
              prostitution in Japan. The case appears to be different here in
              the US.
              \_ They make a flat out global statement about "Asian culture".
                 Is it true across all "Asian culture"?
2002/7/2-3 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:25266 Activity:high
7/2     Anyone reading the Yahoo news on the plane crash in Germany?  How come
        tens of photos are about the wreckage of the Tupolev?  Where's the
        wreckage of the 757?
        \_ Maybe cuz the 757 is a cargo plane and there weren't any children
           on board and no one died 'cept for the crew?
2002/6/12-13 [Reference/Military] UID:25081 Activity:very high
6/11    What is the criterion used by the airlines to selectively screen
        passengers right before boarding (after scanning the boarding pass)?
        I got screened and thoroughly searched both times I flew (int'l) after
        this became a standard procedure even though I look nothing like and
        is not someone from middle east or an islamic country.
        \_ they dont use a criterion.  To do so (i.e. select all middle-eastern
            looking people) would be racial profiling.
        \_ you know those Reserve MPs they have patrolling aren't carrying
           loaded weapons.  They're carrying unloaded weapons.
           - sodan with brother in law patroling O'Hare
        \_ seriously, realistically, the underpaid workers who select who
           to screen pick the people they know aren't going to give them
           problems.  Sometimes you just want to go home safe and sound
           and you don't particularly care about the plane.
        \_ My freind looks like a terrorist, and they gave him the whole
           9 yards.  I think they also search the white people so that
           arab americans do not get offended.  They backed off when the
           playstation 2 in the black suitcase started normally.  Though
           in retrospect, the IDE hard drive bay could pack many explosives.
           \_ yes, my friend's uncle's son works at SFO as a screener
              and the standard procedure is that before they get to the
              middle eastern guy they'll search the prev guy very thoroughly
              as an insurance to potential lawsuits
           \_ oh it's WAY WAY simpler.  Go to some grocery store and buy
              chardonay.  Uncork, drink, consume.  Fill bottle with gasoline.
              now, Recork (yes there are kits for home wineries for this).
              Pack in suitcase.  They NEVER ask about wine or sample wine.
              Now you have an excuse to carry 6 BIG FUCKING MOLOTOVS on
              the plane.  How to deploy: go to bathroom.  Smash bottles necks'
              together.  Use socks and plastic BIC lighter to light.  Throw
              \_ bfd.  And so what?  You'll burn yourself alive and force the
                 plane to land early?  gosh, that's uh truly erm terrifying!!!
2002/4/29 [Academia/Berkeley/Classes, Reference/Military] UID:24633 Activity:high
4/29    Cloning isn't safe:,4057,4218077%255E13762,00.html
        \_ Most new technologies and especially medical procedures aren't
           safe when first developed.  You ever been in a plane?  How about
           the Wright's plane?  Thought so.
        \_ They've already created cloned mice that are four times normal size.
           I wonder if they would accidentally created a monster mouse that
           grows to the size of a dinosaur.
           \_ Yeah they'll just keep feeding it until it's 3 stories high and
              not notice and then it'll eat Tokyo or New York.
                \_ that'd be COOL!
                   \_ I hope it's Tokyo.  They can rebuild that city so
                      fast.  They've got it down to an art, what with all
                      the godzilla attacks and whatnot.
2002/4/25 [Reference/Military] UID:24593 Activity:nil
4/25    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every
        rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from
        those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and
        are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money
        alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius
        of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not
        a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds
        of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron." --
        Dwight Eisenhower, April 16, 1953
2002/4/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24478 Activity:nil 61%like:24424
4/18    "I do believe Ariel Sharon is a man of peace," Bush says.
        War is Peace.
        \_ Yeah yeah and they gave Arafat the Nobel Peace Prize.  Whatever.
           \_ Ignorance is Strength.
2002/4/16 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24451 Activity:very high
4/15    The '67 war in Reader's Digest format.
        \_ What does "in Reader's Digest format" mean?  Thx.
           \_ The Reader's Digest is a print publication that gives the
              short version of printed materials.  All it means is this isn't
              a lengthy or detailed article, just an outline of events.
        \_ How did Israelis manage to lose only 600 ir 700 people while the
           Arabs lost 25000?
           \_ How did the US/allies lose ~250 people in the Gulf War and the
              Iraqi army lost, uh, hundreds of thousands?  More? Uncountable.
              \_ Because we had God(tm) on our side!
              \_ Yeah, but in 1967 there were no laser guided bombs and stuff.
                 \_ True but it's sort of like this: when you know the enemy is
                    sitting on your border all bunched up and you pre-emptively
                    attack and wipe out their airforce on day one, the rest are
                    free kills with no air cover.  It's not like unguided or
                    non-laser guided bombs can't or don't kill anyone, they're
                    just not as accurate.  You're still dead if it hits the
                    other side of the tank.
                    \_ Sounds like what the Japanese wanted to do during Pearl
                        \_ This is what happened in Pearl Harbor and in the
                       \_ except that the US wasn't massing troops to
                          attack the Japanese.
                          \_ Yes but the principle is the same. If the
                             enemy is bunched together (as the pacific
                             fleet was at Pearl Harbor or MacArthur's
                             airforce was in the Philippines) it is
                             possible to inflict heavy losses while
                             sustaining minimal losses yourself.
2002/3/23 [Reference/Military] UID:24202 Activity:nil
3/22    Sara Brady of the Anti-Gun Brady Bill fame buys gun for her son and
        possibly violates gun purchase laws.  Whoops!
        [restored, dont let facts get in the way of your agenda]
        \_ url please
              \_ Has the story been censored? (URL doesn't work in Mozilla
                 or IE).
        \_ There is nothing contradictory in being a supporter of anti-gun
           laws while at the same time buying guns to protect oneself in
           a society where guns are prevalent.
           \_ Sure there is, especially when you're skirting gun control laws
              to buy a gun.  The real crime isn't her possible violation of
              gun control laws, nor the contradiction between her statements
              about getting rid of all guns yet buying one herself, it is the
              blatant hypocrisy required to do so.  Make no mistake, this will
              hurt her anti-gun crusade and rightly so.  As far as "guns are
              prevalent so she needs one, too", if you read the article you'd
              know it wasn't for herself and it wasn't a self defense weapon.
              Further more, it is a common anti-gun statement to say that we
              should rely on the police and other authorities to protect us,
              despite various court rulings that the police,etc have no legal
              obligation to protect you before the fact, only take a statement
              (or collect your body) after and apprehend the bad guy.
              \_ hypocrisy is part of human nature. also, I can't believe
                 that since George W Bush kept saying 'make no mistake' in
                 his speeches (over 20 times in one week) it has actually
                 caught on and people are using it all the time now. ugh.
                 \_ I haven't seen any GWB speeches.  Maybe he got this *very*
                    common phrase from me!  Maybe you could use some SubA or
                    E190 to figure these things out....
                    \_ E190!! E190!! E190 is the STANDA, er..wait...
2002/3/21-22 [Transportation/Car, Computer, Reference/Military] UID:24180 Activity:high
3/21    After a plane crashes badly and turns into a big pile of charred
        rubble, how is it possible for the investigators to determine whether
        it is mechanical failure or human error?  (Let's say they have already
        ruled out bombs.)
        \_ failure analysis.
        \_ black boxes.
        \_ black boxes, eye witnesses, air traffic control, larger chunks
           of debris which may have been left behind...
        \_ Many small parts survive the most destructive crashed. Example,
           depending on the state of the filament of a indicator light
           from the cockpit, crash investigators can tell if the light was
           on or off at the time of impact. Same thing for engine parts
           and propellers. they can tell if things were rotating or stopped
           at impact based on the shape of deformation. it is a science.
           \_ Wow.  I see.  Thanks.
2002/3/13 [Reference/Military] UID:24094 Activity:very high
3/12    Fire with Fire:
        \_ That's fucking hilarious! --scotsman
        \_ I'd go to every game just so I could root against them. It would
           just be too much fun for me to yell derogatory things about the
           the team mascot all game long.
        \_ the "what people are saying" is pretty funny too.
        \_ AFAIK, the "reds" slaughtered the "fighting whites" at the
           battle of little big horn. Wouldn't it be ironic if the
           "reds" won this time around as well?
        \_ I don't get how the name Fighting Whitie is offensive. Maybe
           Horny Whities or Greedy Land Owning Whities, but Fighting Whities?
           Gimme a break
           \_ how about Manifest Destiny Whities or Small Pox Spreading
              Whities or Xeno Killing Whities?
              \_ Why not Fighting Nazis? Fighting Klansmen? Fighting Niggers?
                 Fighting Chinks? Fighting WhItey is not offensive or
                 attention-getting at all
        \_ What if you were a historically subjugated minority and then had
           to see a belligerent caricature of your ethnic group all over
           national television? Do you think that'd make you feel good?
           Hell no. Damn Notre Dame.
        \_ so judging by the above posts, do people generally not see
           the native american sports team names as a bad thing at all?
2002/1/8 [Reference/Military] UID:23498 Activity:nil 61%like:23488
1/8     Gun Control works! Just take UK for example:
        \_ They would have gotten even better results with Dvorak.
2002/1/8 [Reference/Military] UID:23488 Activity:nil 61%like:23498
1/8     Gun control in Britain a huge success!
2001/12/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:23377 Activity:very high
        9/11 off when he learned he was going to die anyway?
        \_ This could be absolute misinformation, but someone told me he was
           reading an article in Janes about how Bin Laden routinely travels
           to Pakistan for dialysis or something along those lines.  Has
           anyone else heard about this?
                \_  No, I missed it when it was reported in virtually
                    every media outlet on the face of the earth.
        \_ He's also a known hypochondriac.
        \_ He is also a known hairy Kalashnikov-toting fruitcake, and a
           remarkably un-photogenic one at that.  -John
           \_ You leave the Kalashnikov out of this, John, it's a perfectly
              good rifle!
              \_ Kalishnikov == AK47 creator?
                 \_ Mikhail Kalashnikov designed it based on a German design.
                    The official name is "Avotmat Kalashnikova obrazets 1947g."
                    \_ What's with the cane he carries around?
              \_ if you were in a guerilla war, which rifle would you
                 carry with you?
                 \_ The one that works.
                    \_ if all were working, then what?
                 \_ from personal experience with the AK and other rifles,
                    the HK mp3 or HK47 is a good rifle.  However, in that
                    sort of war, i think a walther sniping rifle would be
                    your best bet.  better hope smartdust doesn't find you.
2001/12/22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23345 Activity:very high
12/21   From Jon Carroll:
        "SOME HAVE SAID that this is wartime and that people should watch what
        they say in wartime. But, you know, this isn't wartime. Wartime is when
        civilians are drafted to answer their country's call, and stay-at-home
        spouses move into jobs in shipyards and steel factories, and we are
        called upon to save aluminum and tin and purchase blackout drapes.

        Now we are being called upon to purchase consumer electronics and
        airline tickets. We are told that we defeat terrorism by acting
        normally. All we are called upon to sacrifice is our right to think
        freely and to express our opinions openly. And if we fail in our duty
        -- well, there are always the talk radio blowhards and the spontaneous
        mobs to remind us what good citizenship means."
        \_ the soda Free Republic Guy (tm) must be at home visiting
           his family.  happy holidays.  - danh
        \_ So JC thinks the Revolution wasn't war time?  1812 wasn't?  French-
           Canadian wasn't?  The army going west to wipe out the natives
           wasn't?  Taking the southwest from Mexico wasn't?  Korea wasn't?
           Vietnam wasn't?  JC is an idiot.  Not every war will be a clone of
           WWII.  For lack of anything better to do I read this idiot every
           day on BART.  His idiocy makes me laugh.  He should stick to
           stories about his kids and being a dad and give up the attempt at
           political genius.  He's less coherent than the typical motd poster.
        \_ the soda Free Republic Guy (tm) must be at home visiting
           his family.  happy holidays.  - danh
        \_ last time i checked, it wasn't wartime because
           ONLY CONGRESS CAN DECLARE WAR.  and as much as ted turner thinks
           he can declare war, well, de jure, it is a right reserved only to
           the legislative branch.
           \_ haven't you heard?  Rupert Murdoch can declare war.  Apparently
              so can George Soros.  de facto is what counts.
           \_ You're right.  All those other wars where we drafted people and
              they died on foreign lands from foreign bullets weren't wars.
              They were just police actions.  Wake up.
2001/12/13 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23232 Activity:insanely high
12/13   "Army Working on Weapons-Grade Anthrax, Report Says"
        Is the US under certain treaty not to do that?
        \_ Probably not. The US usually does things that they would also
           criticize other countries for doing (conducting nuclear tests,
           spying, etc...)
        \_ Does it matter?  It's not like the rest of the world isn't doing
           the same thing to the greatest extent they can.
           \_ Yeah, it matters. One of the main things we accuse Saddam
              Hussein of doing is violating that treaty. If the report
              is true, we are liars and hypocrits to boot.
                \_ I feel so ashamed.
                \_ Yes, and so what?  In the real world of international
                   affairs might makes right.  I'm sorry if this fact is
                   painful to you but it is so.  The rest of the world knows
                   it, loves it, and lives by it.  Lemme know when you have
                   your own country and how ideally you run it.
                   \_ listen fuckchop. you live in the US. you have a say.
                      this is not a dictatorial regime. are you saying you
                      have no problem with your country (and you as a
                      representative of it) breaking a treaty and building
                      immoral weapons? if your sentiment is shared by all
                      americans, then i feel completely comfortable with the
                        \_ Weapons aren't immoral.  Go look up the word.
                           Enough with the trollish concept of "if you think
                           or do xyz then it justifies sep11th".  That has
                           been overdone.  Make a real argument if you have
                           one.  Anyway, in this country there isn't a single
                           sentiment shared by all Americans so I guess you'll
                           have to continue having false discomfort with the
                           idea of 3000 or so innocent civilians getting
                           murdered for no reason.
           \_ W wipes his ass with treaties like that.
                \_ When has the US ever kept to a treaty?  Going all the way
                   back, the US, like just about every country ever has signed
                   treaties and ditched them the moment they became annoying.
        \_ Making and keeping small amounts of anthrax for prophylactic
           purposes is permitted under the treaty.  Didn't you know that
           Ft. Detrick is where USAMRIID is located?  You know, like that
           movie, Outbreak?
2001/11/14 [Reference/Military] UID:23036 Activity:moderate
11/14   Doesn't it seem like not much attention is being paid to the
        plane crash as other plane crashes?  Is it because most victims are
        \_ Yeah, I had to look for it on the front page of
        \_ I think it's because they think those crashes were not related to
           terrorism which is currently the main focus.
2001/11/10 [Health/Men, Reference/Military] UID:22997 Activity:nil 72%like:22995
11/9    Patton to the 3rd army:
        [why the hell was this deleted?  bite me]
2001/11/9 [Health/Men, Reference/Military] UID:22995 Activity:nil 72%like:22997
11/9    Patton to the 3rd army:
2001/11/1 [Reference/Military] UID:22896 Activity:nil
        Proof that redneck states have more weapons violation
2001/10/26-27 [Reference/Military] UID:22848 Activity:high
10/26   The F-22 is supposed to replace the F-15.  The JSF is supposed to
        replace the A-10, F-16, and F-18.  Anything going to replace the F-14?
        \_ f-14 to be retired at its EOL.  though, I don't know what if
           anything is going to replace it as a naval interceptor; certainly
           not the f-18.  perhaps the JSF.
        \_ the joint strike fighter will have a carrier variant i believe
        \_ The Navy has been replacing the F-14 with the Super Hornet
           modified F-18s of late in as many cases as possible. Dunno
           what is currently fulfilling the role of a Naval interceptor,
           but considering the current air to air missile tech., and that
           the F-14 was built as a platform for the Phoenix, the use
           of the aircraft isn't so critical anymore...
        \_ Do pilots these days still engage in dog fights these days?  I
           thought they shoot eveything with missiles.
           thought they shoot eveything with missiles nowadays.  So
           maneuverability is less important.
           \_ How about pulling out of a dive bomb with two stingers
              you just noticed on your butt?
        \_ you'd think that. but avoiding friendly fire means waiting until
           you can spot the enemy to kill them. so not quite
2001/10/26 [Reference/Military] UID:22838 Activity:very high
10/26   How come the US doesn't have a special force like the elite British
        SAS? And why do we need to ask the Brits when assasination is needed?
        \_ because the assassinations are illegal according to US law?
        \_ Maybe because the CIA is legally prohibited to carry out
           assasination, so it's not supposed to do that?
        \_ Dude consult someone/web before asking stupid questions!
           the U.S. has a WAY larger Special Force than the Brits. True the
           SAS was the model for Delta force, but that's only counter
           terrorism. There's also Navy SEALs DEVGRU (formerly Team Six).
           not to mention FBI HRT (but they don't operate outside US)
           SF, but not primarily CT, units  are mostly Green Berets, Rangers,
           and Marine Corps MEUs.
        \_ assassination is illegal according to US law, right?
           \_ yep.  it's not ok to blow you up, but it's ok to blow your
              car up.  and if you happen to be in the car when it explodes,
              well, so long as i wasn't targeting you specifically...
2001/10/10-11 [Reference/Military] UID:22684 Activity:moderate
10/10   "Delta Flight Lands with F-16 Escort After Threat"
        "Commuter Plane Crashes in Alaska"
        \_ Also, this is news from just a few days ago, sort of makes one
           scared to fly after all those events:
           "Milan Plane Disaster Kills at Least 118"
           "Russian Plane with 78 Aboard Plunges Into Black Sea"
2001/9/23 [Reference/Military, Health/Women] UID:22599 Activity:kinda low
9/23    Here's who we are fighting.  Follow the links and have fun.
        \_ See?  They're morally superior to us.  I'm sure the civilians
           must have done something to deserve this!
2001/9/18 [Reference/Military] UID:22500 Activity:high
9/17    Can you pack a knife in check-in luggages or is it totally banned?
        \- well i think it is possible all bets are off for a little while now
        but i have brought stuff like machetes, large daggers etc in checked
        luggage. the bans on checked baggage are usually combustibles,
        pressurized stuff, live electronics, agricultre and animals. i am
        not sure if the airlines or the national authorizies impose the rules
        on guns. i think the hard question is what random stuff will the
        disallow on carry on and how restrictive will they be on volume.--psb
        \_ I, and several other passengers, had toenail clippers and swissarmy
           knife keychains confiscated this past weekend...
           \_ I'm surprised they let you keep the toenails.
              \- i dontunderstand this things with the keychains ... are
              they concerned you can use them to pry stuff open? i mean i
              think i can do more damage hitting someone with my hiking
              boots or a mechnical pencil. eh? --psb
              \_ better safe than covered with searing hot jet fuel
                 \_ there's probably lots of ways to disguise primitive weapons
                    and get them aboard, but i guess it's good they're trying.
                    if you brought a selection of seemingly innocuous parts
                    you could probably build a more dangerous weapon.
        \_ I was just on Air Canada last nite (Toronto->SF), and check-in /
           security took about 1.5 hours. they replaced the knives on the
           flight dinner with plastic, but the forks were still metal.
           \_ I think a terrorist can stab someone with just a ballpen or a
              key, or break someone's neck with bare hands if he knows some
              martial arts.  I think the safest way is to handcuff everyone
              onto his seat and not allow bathroom breaks.  But that's
              impractical, and handcuffing alone violates FAA regulations.
              -- yuen
              martial arts.  -- yuen
2001/9/17 [Reference/Military] UID:36316 Activity:nil
9/17    Silicon Valley Way to stop hijacking:,10738,2812283,00.html
        \_ I had an idea similar to that. My idea was to allow a nearby
           fighter or ground controller to remotely assume control of the
           plane. This is possible  because modern planes pass  all of
           the pilot's inputs into a fly-by-wire computer anyways so
           there's no direct link from the pilot the the flight control
           surfaces. The only problem is that pilots might feel uncomfortable
           allowing a plane to be remote controlled. That can be solved
           by embedding the planes avionics with a unique key which can
           be kept safely by the airline or FAA. But if a plane can land
           itself on its own that's all the better.
           \_ So the jet fighter pilot needs to be trained on how to fly two
              planes of different types simultaneously?  Cool!
        \_ This sounds like a good scheme to me. Maybe now we can have our
           e-tickets and automated check-in back.
        \_ "UNDER STEVE'S PLAN, the terrorist can't get what he wants. His only
           option then is to kill all the people on the plane, and if his only
           objective is loss of life, a plane is a mighty tough target when
           there are easier ones (like buses) available."
           there are easier ones (like buses) available."  He neglected the
           fact that it's much easier to storm a hijacked bus with SWAT team
           than a hijacked plane, so there's still incentive to hijack a plane.
           --- yuen
        \_ the solution is build more mass transit. higher capacity, more
           throughput, quick check-in time, ease of access and higher safety
        \_ He neglected the fact that it's much easier to storm a hijacked bus
           with SWAT team than a hijacked plane, so there's still incentive to
           hijack a plane.  His plan also doesn't prevent a hijacker that
           demends "I'll blow up the plane if you don't release this and this
           terrorists ... er ... worriers from such and such prisons." --- yuen
2001/9/15-16 [Reference/Military] UID:22460 Activity:moderate
9/14    This reminds me of current handgun laws.  If someone feels threatened
        by someone's gun (even if it is holstered), the gun owner can be charged
        with ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY WEAPON.  Now, I realize our situation isn't
        quite the same, yet something is funny about drastic actions being
        taken as soon as a _single person_ feels threated by words on his/her
        screen.  I don't want to live in a society made prisoner to its most ..
        timid members.  Get some balls people, no one is getting lynched.
        \_ No one's getting lynched, but people are getting death threats
           on their answering machines and bullet holes in their mosques.
           Normally I might agree with you, though.
        \_ hey, nerd.  you ever been in a fight?  No, slapping your
           nerd buddies with a slide rule doesn't count.
           \_ Yes.  You?
        \_ Bullshit.  Sofia had a damn good point.  People are buying
           guns.  The shit that was said here, if taken seriously, was
           dangerous and threatening.  I thought taking down the motd was
           a bad idea, until I read Sofia's and Dan's mail.  I'm still not
           sure it was the best idea, but the point had to be made that
           some comments are taken seriously by people who are already
           shitting bricks.
           \_ Is there someplace where I can read this email? Thanks.
        \_ Sofia had a legitimate fear and made it known to the officers.
           Whether the officers did the right thing is another matter.
           As has been stated numerous times already, the entries in the
           motd went far beyond "anti-arab sentiment offending many members"
           to what could only be called "hate speech" and "incitement
           to riot" and were actually advocating violence.
              \_ yeah, i was the one kicking your ass.
        \_ Actually, more than one person was threatened.  It would be pretty
           fucking callous of the politburo to forward every mail they
           received with complaints of this nature to csua@csua
2001/9/13 [Reference/Military] UID:22435 Activity:insanely high
9/13    heard that another flight out of JFK had 3 arabians who got in an
        argument at 9am in the plane still loading passengers at the gate.
        they asked them to leave the planet but refused.. they called the
        police but by the time they arrived the 3 arabians vanished.
        They better follow up on those 3 guys cuz they are still out there.
        \_ just cause they are arab?  is it any wonder that somebody picked a
           fight with them and got into an argument?  and I assume you mean
           "leave the plane"?
           \_ idiot, it was during the day right when a plane hit the twc at
              9am, they were suspicious and behaved irratically and were asked
              to leave and refused, if they were innocent why would the run
              from the police?
              \_ sounds like you're the idiot. you get in a fight with someone,
                 you see cops, you stop and walk away. no matter what race
                 or where. and it's erratic, dipshit. -ali
                 \_ sounds like you're the idiot. Say you get into an accident
                    (automobile) and the other person starts aruging with you
                    (as is frequently the case), according to your logic, you
                    would get into your car and drive off if you saw the cops.
                    Damn that's great thinking. dipshit.
                    \_ running away from the scene of the crime in that case
                       is illegal, nimrod. walking away from an argument with
                       your possee is not. you should just have the sense now
                       to delete your post and remove evidence of your
                       inability to make analogies. -ali
                       \_ By fight, I assumed you meant blows (ie assualt
                          which is a crime), rather than a recess pissing
                          match between 2nd graders. I'm sorry I didn't
                          understand your pansy world view better.
                          Furthermore, why the hell would you walk away
                          when the cops showed up? You should just stick
                          around and explain the situation, UNLESS you
                          are guilty and don't want to get caught.
                          \_ There is a big difference between a fight and
                          a car accident.  Further, the original poster said
                          "argument", not fight.  How did you make the assumption
                          that blows were involved?  -mlee
                          \_ I'm responding to Ali not the orignal post.
           \_ first, you didn't say it happened on Tuesday.  some flights are
              resuming today, no?  you also didn't say they behaved erratically,
              just that they got into an argument.  If someone asked me to
              "leave the planet", hell yes, I'd refuse too.  and why would they
              vanish?  well, given the amount of anti-arab sentiment going
              around, why would you want to stick around for a NY mob to get
              \_ what anti arab sentiment, it was tuesday at 9am twink
                 and since 11 am tuesday , there have been no flights, put
                 2 and 2 together moron
                \_ wrong.  some flights have resumed today.  I'm sorry that I
                   haven't been keeping track of exactly which airports have
                   resumed operation at what time for which flights.
                 \_ wrong.  some flights are resuming today.  I'm sorry that I
                    haven't kept track of which airports have resumed operation
                    at what times for which flights.  next time be more specific
                    in your story, twink.
                    at what times for which flights to know you were talking
                    about Tuesday.  next time be more specific in your story.
                    (fyi, I checked.  NYC airports opened for limited travel
                    at 6 AM Eastern today.)
        \_ Wasn't the proper procedure in this situation (someone boarded
           a plane and then left) that the airline should clear out all
           passengers and hand-carry and check-in luggage, scan the plane,
           and then re-check-in everyone and everything before taking off?
           --- yuen
           \_ I hope not. Why would the presence of a person mean that a bomb
              could be on board? If the bomb got past the security the first
              time it would do it the second time.
              \_ Not true. Yuen mentioned that the luggage should be hand
                 checked the second time.
              \_ The second check will probably be a bit more complete.
           \_ sounds like you're the idiot. you get in a fight with someone,
              you see cops, you stop and walk away. no matter what race
              or where. and it's erratic, dipshit. -ali
              \_ dipshit, the stewardess asked them.. there was no one else
                 involved there was no fight between them and other passengers
              \_ Great logic. The next time I get into an accident with
                 someone and they start arguing with me and I see the cops
                 show up, I'll get in my car and drive off. Yeah. Dipshit.
                 If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear
                 from the police. You should stay put and explain the
                 situation. Only people who are afraid (or guilty) run
          \_ you mean wtc, not twc.  and you didn't say it happened on Tuesday.
             some flights are resuming today, no?  you also didn't say they
             behaved erratically, just that they got into an argument.  If
             someone asked me to "leave the planet", hell yes, I'd refuse too.
             and why would they vanish?  well, given the amount of anti-arab
             sentiment going around, why would you want to stick around?
              \_ I think the idea is to make sure everything on board belongs
                 to someone on board, so as to prevent non-suicidal bombers.
                 Of course this won't prevent suicidal bombers and hijackers.
                 I thought it was FAA procedure.  --- yuen
2001/9/13 [Reference/Military, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:22428 Activity:very high
9/13    I'm curious what the closest that anyone in the CSUA is to the
        tragedy... my friend's aunt was a stewardess on one of the flights.
        Anyone else care to divulge?
        \_ My sister-in-law's student's relative (Is this very far?) was in
           WTC and made a goodbye call to his wife because he was trapped
           up on one of the upper floors.
        \_ A co-worker's friend was on the SFO-bound flight.
        \_ Word going around of a girl at CKC who lost her entire family
           on one of the flights.
        \_ maroo (amazing in netrek) works at morgan stanley in wtc. he is alright
           and most of their company is accounted for
           jack hsu - (gaia in netrek) was across the canal and saw the wtc towers
           go down
           \_ submit these to <DEAD><DEAD>
           \_ Did Jack really log 500 hours of netrek during 1 semester?
             \_ on how many different servers?  --oj
                \_ What does that mean?  I don't play netrek, just heard the
                \_ I don't know.  I don't play netrek.  Just heard the
                   above about Jack.
                   above about Jack.  Are you from Catholic High?
        \_ my best friend's college buddy was on the 85th floor when
           it happened.  He got out a couple minutes before first tower
           collapsed. He was in first tower.
           \_ What floors did the plane hit?
           \_ What floors did the plane hit?  I thought 85 would be above the
           \_ What floors did the plane hit?  I thought 85 was above where
              it hit.
        \_ This is kind of macabre... I used to be a consultant to Lehman
           and worked in the WTC. I also have a friend who lives a few blocks
           away in Tribeca.
2001/9/12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22409 Activity:nil
9/12    How about a csua t-shirt that says,
        "Now is not the time for justice, now is the time for WAR!"
        i bet it would sell well right now.
        \_ Hi paolo!
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22403 Activity:nil
9/12    Bush to declare war on Jihad.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:22388 Activity:insanely high 57%like:21883
9/11  Motd poll, if you were on a terrorist hijacked plane and the
      terrorists were armed with knifes and cardboard cutters, would
      you be willing to rush the bastards?
      Yes: ..
      Yes: after 9/11/2001, there's no choice anymore.  YOU MUST RETAKE
           THE CABIN OR DIE.
        \_ Think about this.  Everybody on board thouht that it would be
           just another hostage situation-- sit tight, don't stand out, and
           you'll survive.
           \_ agreed.  obviously in retrospect, the answer would be yes.
           \_ yes. if you knew it was life or death then of course; otherwise...
           \_ My poll is based on the following. Assume 50 non terrorists
              and 5 crew on the plane. Of the 50 assume that 20 are too
              old or too young or too weak to be of any use. Also assume
              5 terrorists on the plane. Its 7 on 1. If they just had knifes
              there is no way that you can knife 7 people, shoot yes, knife
              no. The passengers could have taken them out. Game Over.
           \_ My poll is based on the following. Assume 5 terrorists, 50
              passengers and and 5 crew on the plane. Of the 50 assume
              that 20 are too old or too young or too weak to be of any
              use in the situation.
              Its 7 on 1. If they just had knifes there is no way that you
              can knife 7 people who are attacking you, shoot yes, knife no.
              The passengers could have easily taken them out. Game Over.
              Yeah you might get hurt, you might even die, but its sure
              better than letting the bastards get away with whatever they
              are planning.
              \_ Think about this instead:  the hijackers bluffed that they had
                 a bomb.  Now how many volunteers do you have?
                 \_ from another perspective, this could give passengers the
                    sense that they're all going to die anyway and have nothing
                    to lose.
                    \_ Exactly, even the women (esp. the moms) will be
                       willing to take out the bastards. I'd say that
                       its 10 on 1 if they say they've got a bomb.
              \_ Think about this instead:  the hijackers bluffed that they had a
                 bomb.  Now how many volunteers do you have?
              \_ what if they're just planning to fly to Havana?  Wouldn't
                 you feel stupid getting killed to stop it?  -tom
                   \_ Much better getting killed than getting stuck
                      in fidel's little hell hole with a bunch of
                      terrorists and anti-american commie bastards.
                      Oops I forgot you like anti-american commie
                      Oops forgot you like anti-american commie
                      in fidel's little hell hole.
              \_ assume the plane has narrow aisles. assume they have a hostage.
                 assume half the passengers are women and only half the men
                 are willing to put their lives on the line in the face of 5
                 crazy unreasonable trained fucks with knives. then figure you
                 have no chance to organise anything or discuss with others.
                 figure there's no particular reason to think they're suicidal.
                 \_ Okay, in your case there are still about 13 people willing
                    to take on the bastards. All you need to do is get heavy
                    carry on baggage and start hitting or tripping terrorists.
                    They will get confused and this will screw up thier plans,
                    long enough for the pilot to get a message out, which would
                    be enough for the SAMs to lock on, just in case we couldn't
                    get control of the situation.
                    Anyway, I think that I'll learn how to break necks before
                    getting on another plane. Seems to me that this is knowledge
                    that will be quite useful.
                    \_ why should the pilot need to get a message out for air
                       traffic controllers to realize that something is wrong?
                       \_ Course deviations could be due to communications
                          failure and or mechanical failure. ATC will need a
                          message to let the SAMs know that its okay to lock
                          \_ there are no SAMs readily deployed in U.S.
                             soil. Nor can the military act upon a civilian
                             aircraft without the declaration of martial law
                             \_ Martial law must have been declared today,
                                because the F16s that escorted planes into
                                SFO said this "deviate from course and you
                                because the f16s that escorted planes into
                                sfo said this "deviate from course and you
                                will be destroyed".
                                And they are not going to tell you about the
                                SAMs. Ames had them, but you didn't know that
                                did you?
                \_ Wouldn't narrow aisles be to your advantage? They could
                   not bum rush you. Then you could steven segal their ass
                   one by one.
                   \_ From my own experience and people I've talked to,
                      you're not going to be able to do anything to someone
                      with a knife unless you're willing to be seriously
                      injured.  The only options I can see are 1) grab
                      something like luggage (mentioned above) or 2) accept
                      that you're going to get hurt and impale yourself on
                      the weapon to keep them from using it further.
                      \_ I'd go with impale myself and make life miserable
                         for the terrorist. If I'm going to die anyway I've
                         got nothing to lose.
        \_ Even the odds. Bring your leatherman with you. I've flown with
           it several times. Nobody questions it. (Maybe they should...)
           \_ I think that we should all learn to kill people with our
              bare hands. When the pull a knife, you break thier neck.
        \_ They probably carved up the flight crew to intimidate the rest
           of the passengers.
            \_ That would make me more likely to rush 'em. Though, if 3 of
               the five just sit there with knives to the stewardess' throats
               then there's not much you can reasonably do.
               \_ Can't hijack a plane if 3 of 5 are occupied by hostages.
                  Anyway, if they cut the throats of the stewardesses they
                  still have the bodies in thier hands, its an advantage
                  to you when you rush them.
            \_ Yes. You should use the body parts of the crew as weapons.
               If enough blood is spilled, they might slip and fall. Then,
               you can open the emergency doors and hope they slide out.
        \_ by-stander effect?  remember psychology 1?
        \_ I don't mean to get off-topic, but I've been studying Japanese
           sword for a few years, and one of the important lessions I've
           learned is that if you are willing to die, you have a huge
           advantage.  All this talk about fighting back is fine and might
           have actually worked, but the terrorists were willing to die,
           which makes them much more formidable, plus they were the ones
           with the weapons.  - mikeym
           \_ Yes but, if the passengers are willing to die as well (or
              they know that they will die anyway) you have no advantage.
              Shear numbers will win.
        \_ Consider now that passengers are going to be less likely to
           sit by idly if they get hijacked.  -geordan
                 figure there's particular reason to believe they're suicidal.
                    long enough for the pilot to get a message out.
                    Hopefully its long enough for the SAMs to lock on.
                    be enough for the SAMs to lock in, just in case we couldn't
           \_ When they start to carve up the flight crew, you jump them.
              That will confuse them enough to take them out.
            \_ That would make me more likely to rush 'em.  Though, if 3 of the
               five just sit there with knives to the stewardess' throats then
               there's not much you can reasonably do.
2001/8/24 [Reference/Military, Transportation] UID:22233 Activity:nil
8/23    Do BB guns penetrate tires?
        \_ no.
2001/8/23-24 [Reference/BayArea, Reference/Military] UID:22222 Activity:high
8/23    My brother with his friend are coming to town and he wants me to show
        him interesting places in Bay Area. What are the good places
        to take them to? I have no clue myself. I haven't come out of
        Berkeley in ages ..
        \_ Winchester Mystery House - 1 hour drive, but very worth it
           It's the goth-geek-freak-hipster-nerd guide to SF, worth a look
           for this sort of thing.
        \_ Golden Gate Park, Koit Tower, Lombard Avenue, Haight/Ashbury,
           Jack London Sq, Sony Metrion, ...
           \_ twin peaks, mount tam, stinson, sausalito.. the metreon is
              far from interesting..
        \_ drive to monterey
        \_ Boys Toys in North Beach.
        \_ What does your bro likes to do? I mean, you could start with
           'regulation-standard' touristy places such as Pier 39, Ghirardeli
           Square, Golden Gate Bridge, and the likes. If he wants something
           unique, drive down to Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk. Ditto on the
           Monterey, not to be missed. If he likes museums, plenty of that too,
           including the SF Exploratorium. Ask them for specifics. - jthoms
        \_ maybe you can show him the homeless on telegraph.
           \_ The homeless one Telegraph? You mean history majors, right?
           \_ Heck, you can see homeless anywhere. The ones on telegraph are
              just more in the way.
        \_ I've always liked going to Napa Valley.
              \_ I think this is part of Fort Baker in Marin.
              \_ I'm looking into it, but here's a URL that might be somewhat
                 useful.    -mice
        \_ Mitchell Bros.  in SF.
                 army lookout points.  These links point to the primary sites.
        \_ You can take him to the abandoned WWII-era army bases in Marin.
           They're open to the public.  History, hiking, beautiful
           California coastline, etc.  -mice
           \_ is there a formal name for this place?
              \_ Fort Barry, probably.   -mice
                 The whole area is stuffed with old gun emplacements and
                 army lookout points.  If you do end up going, remember to
                 bring warm clothes.
                  \_ Is there places to camp around there?
           \_ Also the USS Hornet or USS Jeremiah O'Brien
        \_ Take them to a club so they can pick up some nice women.
        \_ Show them both Telegraph and U. Ave at $tanfurd.  Then they can
           see that college cultures can be very different even for schools
           that are close to each other.  How old are they and where are
           they from anyway?
           \_ Telegraph avenue is good for being asked "spare change for pot"
              and smelling urine or feces that ocassionally graces the
              street, but not much else.
              \_ before you can accept Telegraph avenue, you must come to
                 grips with the telegraph avenue within yourself.
2001/8/19 [Science/Electric, Reference/Military] UID:22172 Activity:nil
8/20    Electromagnetic tank armor
2001/8/19 [Reference/Military] UID:22171 Activity:nil
8/19    The truth about the Second Amendment
2001/7/11-13 [Reference/Military] UID:21768 Activity:high
7/12    I'll pay $20.00 for a Diamond Viper Pro (pci) -daveh
        \_ why?
         \_Think mil/aero -daveh
           \_ you're putting a homemade mp3 player built out of a 386
              in your 80s Saab?
           \_ No, I'm writing a custom graphics driver for the Navy
              (Before shipping crappy mp3 players, Diamond was well
               known for its graphics cards) - daveh
               \_ isn't ironic that Diamond's last decent card, Stealth 64,
                  built on the S3 Vision 968, later S3 bought Diamond and
                  turned them into Sonic Blue?
               \_ In the Navy, you can program MP3s
                  In the Navy, you can set your mind on C
                  In the Navy, come on and join your fellow man,
                  In the Navy, can't you see we need a hand?
                  \_ If you can't see shore, it's not really gay.
               \_ damnit, I don't want my tax dollars spent on that.
                  what's it for? why aren't "normal" drivers good enough
                  for those rapers of Japanese schoolgirls?
                  \_ that'd be the Marines.  Navy's the ones bombing
                     Puerto Rico.  -- erikred
                     \_ the Marines are part of the Navy -ulysses
                        \_ This doesn't deserve the response, but no.
                        \_ Why does the Navy take Marines on ships with them?
                           \_ Call and ask them. That's how I found
                              out what I know. I lost a bet on it. -ulysses
                              \_ My coworker is ex-Navy and has verified. The
                                 Marines don't like to admit it, but they are
                                 squids, too. --dim
        \_ [date corrected by the motd date god]
                                            \_ h07d8P
        \_ I'll pay $10.00 for yer mom
2001/5/1 [Reference/Military] UID:21161 Activity:very high
04/30   M$ is raising a new breed of BOFH. Or something.
        \_ Old news, posted on the motd earlier this morning.
           \_ Son of a diddly!
              \_ what percentage of viewers do you estimate "got" the
                 run lola run theme of that episode?
                 \_ I thought it was from Go.
                 \_ whoever had closed captioning on.  we also got to see
                    Bart saying, "gun key, gun key, gun key, trigger key..."
                    as he was flipping through his keyring.
                 \_ anyone who had closed captioning on.  those of us also got
                    to see such lines as Bart saying, "... gun lock, gun lock,
                    gun lock, trigger lock..." as he was flipping through his
        \_ Duh, a password of at least 18770 characters is the only way to
           be safe.  I have this set on my network and force users to change
           their passwords on a daily basis.
2001/4/30-5/1 [Reference/Military] UID:21149 Activity:high
4/30  can someone tell me how to get the coordinates for the center
      of gravity of a triangle, given the coordinates of the three
      vertices.  thanks a lot.
        \_ google.  (sorry, couldn't help myself)
        \_ I think it's x = (x1 + x2 + x3) / 3, similar for y and z -- yuen
           \- it depends on how the mass is distributed. again, it is a
           fairly strightforward [high school calculus] integration problem.
           \_ I think it's safe to assume that the mass is evenly distributed
              (if not, the fact that it's a triangle is irrelevant), in which
              case the integration stuff decomposes into more straightforward,
              simpler equations...
        \_ Just find the midpoints of each side and then caculate the
           point at which the lines from the opposite verticies to the
           midpoint intersect. I tried to derive the formula but my
           brain hurts a little too much from reading squid code this
              \- for a right triangle defined by the origin and (x,y) the CM
              is at 2/3x, 1/3y [pf left as an exercise to the reader. for an
              arb triangle it isnt as simple. if you are looking at a physical
              object, then there are empircal ways to find it for arb objs--psb
              \_ Does it make a different if the plane is flat or curved?
                 \_ Yes.  It won't work if the plane is curved w.r.t. the
                    co-ordinate system.
                    co-ordinate system.  -- yuen
                    \_ So how do you find the cg of a triangle if the
                       plane is curved?
                       \- once again: if the plane is curved, then it isnt
                       a triangle. notice the angles dont sum to 180deg either
                       in that case. by integration you can find the center of
                       mass of "any" 3-d shape with any "reasonable" desity
                       function. in practice, for weird shapes you find the
                       a plumb line. Computing something like a moment of
                       center of mass with empirical techniqies, such as with
                       a plumb line. Determining something like a moment of
                       inertia is harder. --psb
                       \_ Yes the angles don't sum to 180, but I though that
                          the only requirement was 3 sides and only in the
                          special case of non-curved planes (eculidiean?)
                          did the sum of the angles = 180 degrees apply.
                          I forget how to find the cg via integration,
                          url please. thnx.
                          \- the web isnt the answer to everything. go dig up
                          your high school calculus book. it will do for a
                          plane triangle.
                          \_ Don't have my high school calc book. I haven't
                             had a calc book since the last day of school
                             junior year. url please. thnx.
                             \_ get up from your goddamn terminal and go
                                to a fucking library, you lazy fuck.
        \_ for a triangle in a euclidian plane, think about this.
           the ratio of areas goes as the sqaure of the ratio of lengths
           pick a side of the triangle and divide the triangle with a line
           parallel to that side such that the area of the whole triangle
           to the new triangle created by the line is 2:1.  repeat with
           different side and determine where the two lines intersect.
           such a process could be adapted for a spherical surface.
2001/4/28 [Reference/Military] UID:21130 Activity:insanely high
4/28    If the U.S. is supporting a "One-China" policy, should we be
        selling Taiwan our advanced weapons. If they do, in fact, unite,
        that would me that American technology, including F-16's, would
        then belong to China.
        \_ Those F-16s were Block 20/25 with the MLU. Not the most advanced
           F-16s. In fact they were embargoed Pakistani F-16s. The Chinese
           have the J-10, which was made with Israeli assistance, based upon
           the Israeli Lavi fighter, which is a knock-off of the F-16.
           Plenty of countries have U.S. weapons that could one day be used
           against US but most are older models/outdated. Iran was sold
           F-14s before the Shah was deposed (though they only have a
           few working ones left. Iraq had old HAWKs during the Gulf
           War besides their usual Soviet SAMs.
        then belong to China.
        \_ Those F-16s were Block 15 with the MLU. Not the most advanced
           F-16s. The Chinese are developing the J-10, with alleged
           Israeli assistance, based upon their experience with the now
           cancelled Israeli Lavi fighter, which was made with U.S. assistance
           and very similar to the F-16. Several Congressmen have brought
           this issue up and publicly condemn Israel for helping China.
        \_ Yeah, someone in China wrote us a check and the delivery address
           just happened to be in Taipei.
        \_ nuke taiwan into oblivion!!1!--the mad chinaman
2001/4/25 [Reference/Military] UID:21102 Activity:nil
4/25    Does anyone here still use Armor-All on their dash (cars later than '93)
        \_ I use it on my Camaro, after brushing my mullet.
        \_ nope.  it is not good for the dash -- it actually dries things
           out.  i forget what we use now, but it's not armor-all.
2001/4/16-17 [Reference/Military] UID:21002 Activity:very high
4/16    What's up with the British and samurai sword attacks?
        Guns, knives, cars, clubs, crowbars, beer bottles and many other
        things I can understand.  Samurai swords?
        \_ guns are illegal in britain.  you make do with what you have.
        Guns, knives, cars, clubs, crowbars, beer bottles and many other
        things I can understand.  Samurai swords?
        \_ A properly used katana is more deadly than a knife, a club,
           a crowbar, or a beer bottle.  All the Hollywood bullshit aside.
        \_ Which would you rather have, a bottle or a 3' long razor blade?
              \_ Neither. I prefer my MAC 10.
                 \_ And I'd prefer to ram my m-16 up your ass.
              \_ How to english syntax grammar?
                 \_ Everything is correct, merely a colloquial use of the verb
                    'to chill.'
                    \_ not everything is correct.  "Sword" should be "swords" in
                       the first sentence.
                       \_ You are right, sorry.
           \_ Some of the samurai swords I saw in Japan were indeed as sharp
              as razor blades.  Merely looking at them made me chill.
2001/4/11 [Reference/Military] UID:20934 Activity:kinda low
4/11    Gun toting yahoo idiot dad gets off by stupid jury making bogus claims
        of "self-defense" firing a *GUN* on a *SCHOOL CAMPUS*!
        This guy should've gotten the full life term.
        \_ Did you read the article at all?  He only fired it into the air and
           he was just trying to defend his son when his son was being beaten
           by a gang, not by another single person.  Also see the reference to
           Joshua Stern near the end of the article.  I wouldn't carry a gun to
           school, but if I were the father and I happened to have a gun at
           that moment, I would have done the same thing.
2001/4/9 [Recreation/Food, Reference/Military] UID:20916 Activity:nil
4/9     What do people think of
        \_ Clicking through is even less philanthopic than sparing change.
2001/3/22 [Consumer/Camera, Reference/Military] UID:20881 Activity:nil
2001/3/14-15 [Reference/Military] UID:20778 Activity:very high
3/14    This one is for tom:
        \_the author of this demonstrates the adage that a little bit of
        knowledge is a dangerous thing. she labeled someone (and all those
        with similar arguments) with the fancy psychological term of
        "projection" without providing evidence of that diagnosis, but
        simultaneously rules out any alternative explanation. i.e.,
        she's an idiot.
        \_ She quotes "I'd rather be raped than have some redneck militia type
           try to rescue me."  I'm a guy and I'm anti-gun, but even I don't
           believe any woman would say things like that.  (Okay, I'm in the
           mentality that most rape victims are female.)  I think she just
           made it up for the purpose of writing her paper.
        \_ there doesn't have to be a universal answer to this question.
        people who don't want to live with guns shouldn't have to, and
        vice versa. this question shouldn't be framed on a national,
        or even state level, but on a community level. anarchy now!
        \_ This is great!
           "'I'd rather be raped than have some redneck militia type try
            to rescue me.' - How often have you heard these statements..."
                \_ Once.  How many times is enough?
        \_ Good article
2001/1/12 [Reference/Military] UID:20304 Activity:nil
1/11    "New research shoots holes in the idea that guns in the hands
         of private citizens will help to deter criminals"
        \_ let's do a test, i have a gun at home. break into my house tonight
        and see what happens.
           \_ address please.  p.s., i have grenades.
2001/1/8-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20267 Activity:moderate
1/7     Just saw Traffic. 2.5 hours is way too long to simply tell the message
        that we're badly losing the War on Drugs.
        \_ Maybe if you took some drugs it would change the time.
        \_ Maybe if you considered how much worse things would be without the
           "War on Drugs" you'd see that 2.5 hours is way too long to spend
           on a bad message/propoganda.
           \_ traffic was not propoganda and i dunno what "bad message" you
              thought it had.  it presented a pretty unbiased view of wtf is
              going on in the "war on drugs" and how it affects people on
              various sides of it.  i thought it was very well done and was
              thought-provoking.  it didn't tell you what to think at all.
              \_ An unbiased view?  What drugs are you on?  It's pretty
                 obvious where the director and the writer stand on this
                 issue.  Those 2.5 hours are used to _convince_ you that
                 it's a losing war.  And a good 2.5 hours it was, too.
                 It's worked on you and the original poster, hasn't it?
                 Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie, too.  But I think
                 you had better bring a spare brain the next time you go
                 see a Hollywood movie, kid.
                 \_ the point of the movie was not that it's a losing war.
                    that is already obvious to anyone with a brain.
           \_ Who would be worse off now? Prison guards? Corrupt policitians?
              Anyone else?
              \_ Well, ok, I didn't actually see it and don't really care one
                 way or the other but I do object to the propoganda spew about
                 "losing the war on drugs" from the original poster.  No one
                 has any idea either way what this country would be like for
                 better or worse or in what ways without the anti-drug thing.
                 \_ The war on drugs didn't stop Keanu!
                        \_ And I'm sure we're all better off for it.  Ask his
                           (dead) buddy, River Phoenix.  But, oh, you might
                           not remember him.
                                \_ is this a troll? in case it isn't, the
                                possibility that a substance can be abused
                                doesn't mean it's morally "wrong" to
                                use, much less warrants a law. by your
                                argument, alcohol should be outlawed, too.
                                \_ GUNS dont kill people. People kill people.
2001/1/7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20263 Activity:nil
1/5     Yet another Republican war continues killing innocents long after the
        war is over....
2001/1/3 [Reference/Military] UID:20226 Activity:high
1/1     One man beaten to death.  Another beaten.  Two victims that might be
        well today if only they could have defended themselves....
        \_ you misspelled, "one victim that might be dead if he was stupid
           enough to be carrying a firearm"
                \_ Nope, got it just right.  Try again with a dictionary in
                   hand.  The way you spell it, someone would be dead if they
                   had a firearm.  Uhm, they didn't and they're _dead_.  Work
                   on that spelling thing a bit more, eh?
        \_ be wary of ideological thinking. if each of you could choose
           your own society, how would you have it? would every psycho be
           given guns, artillery, tanks? where would you stop it, if at
           \_ I don't care about the other psychos, as long as I have
              guns, artillery, tanks.  -John
           all, and why? likewise, in society where guns were prohibited,
           would anything possibly used as a weapon be prohibited? thinking
           in these all inclusive terms -- such as  dictating how "everyone
           should be/shouldn't be allowed" -- will not bring us to a
           \_ gah. learn to format.
              Anyways, it all has to start with an accurate lie detector.
2000/12/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:20186 Activity:very high
12/27   Another idiot who could not handle the responsibility of owning
        a gun: Michael McDermott, 42, of Haverhill, Mass.
        \_ [gun control, short-sighted NRA bastard reply here]
        \_ Mass' oppressive gun control laws kept the poor
           victims unarmed and unable to defend themselves.
                \_ yes, I'm sure if jor was there that he would have gotten
                   into (and won) a John Woo-style shootout.  Get real.  -tom
                \_ I wouldn't have been shot 3 times in the back, as I
                   tried to crawl away.  The question you should answer is
                   what could he have done for revegeance if he didn't have
                   those particular weapons.  I suspect much of the same. -jor
                   \_ Perhaps you can show us all the examples of rampages
                      where someone killed 7 people with a knife.  -tom
                      \_ numerous car bombings make my point: this had nothing
                      to do with guns.  A wacko went after a church in
                      England with a sword.  And then the beatle attack. Also,
                      it doesn't take a John Woo shootout to end these affairs.
                      The school shootouts that ended with the kid still alive
                      ended when someone pointed a gun at the punk.  -jor
                      \_ Good to know that jor carries a gun to church and
           \_ And your point is ......
              \_ just giving an example of a worst case scenario.  BTW, does
                 that book have a section on this?
                 \_ Oh, I see.
                    \_ At Columbine, kids and their teacher would lock
                       themselves in a classroom, and the guy would try
                       the door but go on for easier prey.
                         work and let his kids carry at school. Next time
                         you see him, tell a cop and see if his CCW permit is
                         up to date.
        \_ O'Reilly described how McDermott used the shotgun and ``blew
           the door off and the door handle off'' a room where several
           people had taken refuge.
           ``He then went inside and he shot one individual three times
           in the chest. ... Another woman was shot twice in the legs
           and then shot in the head with a shotgun.''
           \_ What a waste of lives.
        \_ I hope this is not a future rationale for Bring Your Concealed
           Weapon to Work Month.  I suppose at the Microsoft campus they
           can summon MS staff security in lieu of people bringing their
           own 'protection'.
           \- this is kind of a morbid thought but i wonder if free stuff like
           tshirts from edgewater from vendor shows will value++ .--psb
        \_ What happened is gun control laws prevented 6 people and maybe all
           7 from saving themselves.  Rather than 7 unarmed victims and 1 live
           psycho, we might have zero or one victim and 1 dead psycho.  Gun
           control killed at least 6 people at edgewater.
                \_ the funny thing about ideologies is that they are
                   internally but not externally consistent.  -tom
2000/11/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:19912 Activity:insanely high
11/25   all you gun control people read this:
        \_ Actually, the number of incidents involving children shooting
           other children at school has been decreasing over the past several
           school.  really.  -tom
           years, and is never more than about half a dozen times a year.
           assailant was really necessary.  -tom
        \_ gee I'm sure the cases of kids shooting assailants far outweighs
           the cases of kids shooting themselves or shooting up their high
           school.  really.  And I'm also sure that killing the unarmed
           assailant was really necessary.  Actually it sounds like they
           shot him in the back as he was escaping.  -tom
           \_ If someone enters my property without my permission, he deserves
              to die.  It doesn't matter if he tries to flee or not.  It's a
              matter of principle.  Some people don't learn to respect property
              rights any other way.
                \_ Yeah!  But for me, if someone enters my property without
                   my permission.  I will first rape her before killing her.
                   That's my principle,  and you need to learn to respect
           \_ Its called tresspassing, assault and attempted murder. The son
                         \_ No, it's called trespassing.
              killed a *CRIMINAL* in the act of committing a *CRIME*. He is
              the hero, he saved his father's life. Gun control would have
              resulted in two dead, the father and the son, while the scum
              who murdered them would be one the streets looking for his next
              victim (not that this would be a bad thing if his next victim
              was TOM).
                \_ Lack of gun control has resulted in documented cases of
                   thouands of innocent people being killed.  The idea of
                   private gun ownership stopping crime is simply too absurd
                   to respond to.  -tom
                   \_ And there are thousands of documented cases of innocent
                      people successfully defending themselves.  The idea of
                      private gun ownership not stopping crime is simply
                      too absurd to respond to.
                        \_ Add to the list of things NRA syncophants are too
                           cowardly to do: sign their names.  -tom
                           \_ Yeah, not signing means you're right and I'm
                              wrong.  Let's not bring those other unpleasant
                              things into this like the f-word: facts.  I like
                              how whenever certain people have nothing to say,
                              they always fall back on this "you're anonymous,
                              so your views don't count!" nonsense.
                                \_ not signing means you're too cowardly to
                                   stand behind your words.  -tom
                                   \_ I didn't write either of those posts,
                                      but I support the views expressed in
                                      them. I am not now, nor have I ever
                                      been a gun owner or a NRA member; one
                                      need not own a gun in order to understand
                                      that the RIGHT to keep and bear arms
                                      is fundamental to the preservation of
                                      freedom. ----ranga
                                      \_ Does England not have freedom?  -tom
                                         \_ If you want *that* sort of freedom,
                                            you're welcome to it.
        No, they don't.  The UK has the highest per-capita number of _/
        CCTV cameras in the world.  There is no equivalent of the bill
        of rights, no habeas corpus, and numerous anti-terrorism laws
        which permit massive governmental intrusion into what you and I
        view as fundamental individual liberties.  Guns are banned
        completely, with very few specific exceptions.  And yet, the UK
        has a higher rate of crimes against property and many violent
        crimes than the US.  No, not what I see as "free".  -John
        \_ Garbage! Habeas corpus ORIGINATED in England by MEDIEVAL times.
           You are a joke!
          \_ As did the concept of a written document fundamentally
             delineating the powers and responsibilities of rulers towards
             their subjects, as a form of contractual terms of office.
             That doesn't mean they have one at present... -John
                                         \_ England does not have freedom, Tom.
                                            Recently England jailed a man for
                                            killing a burglar.
                                                \_ ah, so "freedom" includes
                                                   "freedom to murder". -tom
                                                   \_ We call it self defense.
                                                      I suggest that you should
                                                      be imprisoned and retrained
                                                      for assaulting that poor
                                                      guy at the ATM who only
                                                      wanted you to share your
                                         \_ I don't know, but England did
                                            abolish slavery in the 1830s.
                                            \_ Hello?  Modern times?  England
                                               still had colonies until the
                                               middle of the 20th century, too.
                                               What's either have to do with
                                               modern England?  You're right.
                                               You _don't_ know.
                \_ Well ya know what they say... a Republican is a Democrat
                   that's been mugged.  I'm sure Tom will be thrilled to know
                   the cops will show up 90 minutes later to take a report
                   after some garbage busts into his house, robs the place,
                   and beats the shit out of him.  Another favorite is "a
                   young man that isn't liberal has no heart, a grown man
                   that isn't conservative is a fool".
                        \_ oh incidentally; I was mugged once, at an ATM in
                           San Bruno, and fought the guy off.  If either of us
                           had had a gun I might have been shot.  -tom
                        \_ I was mugged and am still a liberal. Also, it is
                           "old man" not "grown man" in your quote. -ausman
                                \_ it's also "has no brain" rather than "is
                                   a fool".  -tom
                                   \_ Well, what can you expect from someone
                                      with no brain.
                           \_ Ok, so how exactly would strict guns laws that
                              keep citizens from arming themselves have kept
                              your attacker from being armed?  Law don't keep
                              anyone from doing anything.  They provide a post-
                              facto punishment.  If he was willing to assault
                              and rob you, he's already not concerned with
                              post-crime punishment.  And while we're at it,
                              if you'd had a weapon, you could have apprehended
                              the criminal so he wouldn't turn on some other
                              person less able to physically defend themselves.
                              Thank you for making the streets more dangerous
                              by teaching a criminal how to better choose his
                                \_ Garbage!  Gun laws are not for keeping
                                   law-abiding citizens from owning guns.
                                   \_ What?  Are you nuts?  Who are they written
                                      to keep guns from then?  Are you talking
                                      about the U.S. or somewhere else?  Of
                                      *course* gun laws are written to keep
                                      law abiding citizens from having guns.
                                      --not NRA member or gun owner but awake
                                      \_ They are written to keep them from
                                         people who want to own guns but
                                         can't or do not want to handle
                                         the responsibilities that goes with
        \_ Here's a funny cartoon on the subject:
2000/11/9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:19679 Activity:high
11/8    Time to forget Florida and just give Bush & Gore each a partner
        from the WWF and let a tag-team grudge match decide the winner.
        \_ Let them duel for it, as great men did in ages past. (a la
           Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton)
                 \_ that would be really exciting.  Or a western style
                    showdown.  or maybe even pitting them gladiator style
                    against each other.
                    \_ Western style showdown would be cool. Showdown
                       at the Dade County Corral. It may not be a fair
                       contest though since Bush is a reasonably good
                       marksman who has a permit to carry a concealed
                       firearm (AFAIK).
                        \_ well we can just give Gore a knife, since knives
                           are more deadly than guns.  -tom
                           \_ In some situations.  This wouldn't be one of
                              them.  Thanks for taking that out of context,
                              though.  You can give yourself a twink point
                           \_ Tom that ruled. - tom #1 fan!
                           \_ Yes give them knife and sword so they can
                              settle it like gentlement.
2000/11/6-7 [Reference/Military] UID:19652 Activity:moderate
11/6 deemed Dianne Feinstein the Senator most likely to
        censor the internet.
        \_ why?
           \_ why not?
              \_ my cat ate a bird and then puked it up on my bed
        \_ where on Yahoo!?
        \_ Cuz she's a nut. She has a concealed carry weapons license
           and tries to take it away from everyone else. She has no clue
           about guns and has done a great job in making sure the criminals
           are the only ones with guns.
        \_ She already tried - she's introduced bills to ban sites that
                provide instructions on making bombs and upgrading
                non-automatic weapons to full automatics.
2000/10/27 [Reference/Military] UID:19585 Activity:nil
10/26   Summary:
        * Gun advocates can't register their guns because the goverment will
          come take them away.
        * Guns don't kill people.
2000/10/27-28 [Reference/Military, Health/Men, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:19582 Activity:kinda low
10/27   Ok, we all know that men who drive big SUVs typically have small
        penises.  Does the same holds for men who own big guns?  They need
        to feel big and powerful by driving big cars and owning big weapons.
        \_ Please prove your contention that big SUV == small penis
                \_ Well, he _said_ "we all know".  Therefore....
                   \_ We don't all know this. Case and point,
                      his comment doesn't apply to me.
        \_ Do the women who drive SUV's also have small penises?
           \_ Yes, they require 2 double-A batteries; the D-battery dildos
              are just a little much. -yersister
           \_ Yes, they are 2 double-A batteries; the D-batteries as dildos
              are just a little much.
              \_ You sound like you speak from experience, good CSUAer!
        \_ The RIGHT to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with owning guns.
           This RIGHT is designed to guarentee that we are able to preserve
           our FREEDOM.
           \_ This just screams "wingnut" to me.
                \_ This just screams "moron who never read the 2nd amendment
                   but has a worthless opinion anyway" to me, but fortunately
                   for you, this is the U.S. where you still have the right
                   to be wrong and proclaim it loudly.
2000/10/27 [Reference/Military] UID:19579 Activity:insanely high
10/26   Replying to peace-loving caste member who loves gun freedom:

                                                \_ I don't buy that having
                                                   guns available would make
                                                   a difference in controlling
                                                   government abuses in a
                                                   established democracy
                                                   like the US, with a
                                                   mature system of checks
                                                   and balances and a free
                                                   \_ Except the press is bought
                                                      off and biased.  People
                                                      are people.  Nothing
                                                      magical about the press.

                                                   As for carrying out the
                                                   laws and controlling
                                                   crimes, that's what
                                                   governments are for, or
                                                   would you rather have
                                                   mob justice and blood
                                                   revenges like they have
                                                   Azerbajian or some other
                                                   3rd world hell hole?
                                                   \_ Governments don't always
                                                      "get it right".

                                                   As a matter of fact, I do
                                                   not believe in banning
                                                   guns totally in the US.
                                                   I believe that, given the
                                                   wide availability of guns,
                                                   people should have the
                                                   choice to have a gun for
                                                   personal protection.
                                                   \_ "As a matter of fact, I
                                                      do not believe in banning
                                                      murder totally in the US.
                                                      I believe that, given the
                                                      high murder rate, people
                                                      should have the choice to
                                                      murder or not."

                                                   But if you believe that
                                                   having guns available to
                                                   the general populace have
                                                   helped reduce crime or
                                                   helped curb government
                                                   abuses, I think you are
                                                   very much misguided.
                                                   \_ URL, please.  Don't put
                                                      your opinion as fact on
                                                      the motd without a URL
                                                      to back up your statements.
                                                      It only annoys people who
                                                      are intelligent and want
                                                      a discussion rather than
                                                      a rant.
             Here are a few quotes to support my point _/
             These are men who knew first hand the
             effect of disarming the populace:

   Thomas Jefferson:

   "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are
    neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.  Such laws make
    things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they
    serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed
    man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

   Thomas Paine:

   "Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and
    preserve order in the world as well as property ... Horrid mischief
    would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    \_ As much as I repect Tom and Tom, these are also just opinions,
       not facts.  They do not "prove [any] point". No "Horrid mischief"
       happened in the many European democracies that banned the general
       populace from owning guns.
       \_ changed to support. I should not have said proved.
       \_ You mean like Germany, 1930s?  Or England since they started
          their war vs the IRA?
          \_ It's lucky they do not have guns in Northern Ireland.
             They would have started a civil war.
       \_ changed to support. I should not have said proved. And which
          european democracies have as much freedom as we do? None.
          \_ Netherlands?  France?  What kind of freedoms do we have
             that they don't have?
          America is the last best hope of man on earth.
          \_ American is the first, last, and only hope for free thinking
             free willed people on this planet.
             \_ Does that mean it also has to hve the highest homicide rate
             \_ Does that mean it also has to have the highest homicide rate
                in the world?
       \_ This isn't Europe.  I wouldn't want this country to be like Europe.
          The whole point of this country was to *not* be like Europe.  Stop
          using Europe as some magic faery land of wonderment and joy and
             \_ We also shouldn't misapply the lessons of other cultures. Been
                to Europe?  They're nothing like Americans.  Totally different
                place.  It was like walking in an alternate universe.
                \_ Huh?  Visited disneyland, ate at McDonald's, shopped at
                   Walmart, feels just like home to me.
          perfection in government.  It isn't.  As far as Tom/Tom quotes go,
          these aren't facts but they make sense if you bothered to read them.
          Who is a criminal more likely to attack?  The man with the gun or
                   universe", the Americ of Jefferson's time is what I would
          without the gun?  Apply some common sense.
       \_ We also shouldn't misapply the lessons of other cultures. Been
          to Europe?  They're nothing like Americans.  Totally different
          place.  It was like walking in an alternate universe.
                \_ Huh?  Visited disneyland, ate at McDonald's, shopped at
                   Walmart, feels just like home to me.
                   Western Europe, Australia and Canada are the countries that
                   are culturally, and political and economic system wise the
                   closest to the US.  If you want to talk about "alternate
                   universe", the America of Jefferson's time is what I would
                   call an "alternate universe".
                   \_ You are wrong. In America we value individual liberties
                      and live in a representative republic that was founded
                      to preserve those liberties and freedoms. We are not
                      a *socialist* welfare state like the countries you
                      \_ High taxes and individual liberties don't
                         necessarily have an inversee relationship.
                         Fucking Singapore and Hongkong has less taxes
                         move liberty.
                         percentage wise than the US.  Doesn't mean they have
                         more liberty.

          \_ Can't you just stick to the issue?  Nobody is asking you to make
             the country like Europe.  American exceptionalism is great, but
             it does not mean we should rule out learning from others'
             experience.   Who do you fear more, a criminal with a knife,
             or a criminal with a gun?
                \_ I fear either if I'm not allowed to carry a gun, which
                   I'm not in California.  But in answer to your question,
                   a knife wound is quite easily fatal, even if a ER was
                   right next door.  Bullets make cleaner holes and usually
                   don't take out a vital organ.  Knife wounds bleed badly.

                   \_ Do you seriously believe it is not easier to kill a
                      Why do mankind ven fucking invented the gun for?
                      person with a gun as compared to a knife?  Why do
                      police and criminals use guns rather than knives then.
                      Why do mankind even fucking invented the gun for?

                \_ Okay consider Australia's problems after banning guns.
                   As discussed in this article, contrary to popular belief
                   violence has increased rather than decreased.


                   \_ Ya, sure, quote a page from "Second Amendment Sisters,
                      Inc."  I will give you a counter page then from
                      "Million Mom March" then:


                      \_ Okay, show me the numbers. At least the SAS has
                         factual support for thier claims.
        So, when law-abiding citizens who were law-abiding when they purchased
        their weapons turn into criminals by using the gun against another
        law abiding citizen, are they counted as "law-abiding gun owners"
        or "criminals who were able to obtain the guns anyways."?

                         \_ You didn't find the stats?  Ok, here you are:

                         \_ I can show many examples of HCI/MMM lying.
                            For example, only 100,000 moms showed up.
                            \_ Uh, no it was more like 10,000 moms. And
                               here is a page that refutes what MMM says:

             \_ Both are equally deadly.
                        \_ what a ridiculous statement.  A gunshot wound is
                           far more likely to kill than a knife wound.  A
                           gunshot wound can be delievered from a distance,
                           a knife wound normally can't.
                           The "hear-no-evil" world view of the NRA-types is
                           amazing.  -tom
                           \_ Yeah, the thug in a dark alley draws a knife
                              and puts it to your throat, or he draws a gun
                              puts it to your head, which is deadlier? They
                              are equally deadly.
                              And when the feds come to your house with thier
                              M16s, your puny little knife is going to be
                              enough to stop them from infringing on your
                              rights. Yeah. I'd rather live free than live
                              as a slave.
                              And if you think that no guns == safer society
                              you are dead wrong and will be dead wrong.
                           \_ A man with a gun can kill a few people, then is
                              out of ammo and must reload and can only carry
                              just so many rounds.  A man with a knife can
                              kill you, your family, your neighbors, your dog,
                              slash your tires, and then make dinner with it.
                              A weapon is a weapon is a weapon.  Each has a
                              different purpose and ideal use.  A knife is not
                              less deadly than a gun, merely different.  The
                              other poster who said they are equally deadly was
                              not in any way being ridiculous.  The world
                              view of the "gub'ment will protect me" types
                              are simply amazing.
             \_ I can take on a criminal with a knife.  Unless knives
                are banned.
                \_ Yup.  We all get lucky sometimes.  Lets ban knives.
    \_ Here are some URLS:

                                                   In short, having a gun
                                                   may be beneficial to
                                                   an individual in
                                                   specific circumstances,
                                                   but the wide spread
                                                   availability of guns
                                                   has been detrimental
                                                   to the US populace in
                                                   \_ So a good thing for one
                                                      person becomes a bad thing
                                                      when many individuals
                                                      benefit from that same
                                                      thing?  Hello?
                                                      \_ It's called "the
                                                  tragedy of the commons" and
                                                  it's a well-understood
                                                  phenomenon.  Obvious example;
                                                  880 South at 8:00 AM.  -tom
                                                  \_ So if we all have guns then
                                                     suddenly Something Terrible
                                                     will happen?  Thanks for
                                                     the scare tactics.
                                                      \_ If I stand up to get
                                                         a better view in the
                                                         movie theater it is
                                                         good for me.  If
                                                         everyone stands up
                                                         it is bad for all.
                                                         -!original poster
                                                         \_ it's bad for the
                                                            short people.
                                                         \_ Apples/Oranges.
                                                            Gun use is not a
                                                            limited resource.
                                                            LOS to the screen
                                                            in a theatre is.
                                                            Nice try, though.
                 As it relates to gun ownership this does _/
                 not apply as the entire populace needs to
                 be armed or at least have the ability to
                 be armed in order to preseve freedom.

                                                   Given the above, I
                                                   think it is right
                                                   to call for tougher
                                                   gun laws, but not to
                                                   ban it altogether.
                                                   \_ Tougher gun laws?  Like?
                                                      This is the phrase a lot
                                                      of the gun ban lobby use
                                                      to cover the writing of
                                                      laws which chip away at
                                                      the 2nd amendment until
                                                      there's isn't one.
        Registering guns annually (or some reasonable _/
        time period).  Penalty and responsibility if
        gun registered under you is stolen or used to
        commit a crime.
          \_ Oh, THAT'S just.  Someone steals your gun, and commits murder
             and YOU'RE in trouble.  Regardless of how well you protected it.
             REAL fair.  I want the same rules applied to your car.  --PeterM
             \_ That's what happens when you lose your rifle in the army.
             \_ So you agree with registering guns annually (or some
                reasonable time frame)?
                \_ No. The government ought not know how many guns I have,
                   otherwise they can use that information against me.

                   \_ Are you against registering motor vehicles too.
                      I am sure the government can use that against you too.

             \_ Of course penalty will vary depending on circumstance under
                which the gun is stolen.
             \_ Theft should be reported as soon as possible.
             \_ Ever watch Red Dawn? That's what happens to people
                who register their guns.

      \_ So, when law-abiding citizens who were law-abiding when they purchased
         their weapons turn into criminals by using the gun against another
         law abiding citizen, are they counted as "law-abiding gun owners"
         or "criminals who were able to obtain the guns anyways."?
         \_ Depends on the circumstances. If you are attacking me, and I
            pull out my gun and defend myself, then it is justified. If
            a gun owner pulls out his gun and wacks someone its homocide,
            but there are laws to deal with that. And if you say that its
            easy to get a gun and kill many people, consider how easy it
            is to make a bomb with household chemicals. Perhaps they should
            all be banned too?
        \_ everyone  should own a submachine gun (either H&K UMP in
           .40S&W or .45ACP or Steyr TMP), a machine gun (Russian An-94
           or OICW), a hi-cap side arm (Para Ordance P-14-45 LDA or Glock 17),
           a hi-cap shotgun (Franchi SPAS 12, or Benelli M3 Super 90), and
           an anti-aircraft machine gun (naturally a M-2BMG).
           \_ No thanks!  I will just have a good ol' AK-47 and a Hitler
              Jugend dagger with "Blut und Ehre" engraved.   -neocommienazi
              \_ The 7.62mm x 39mm cartridge of an AK-47 has been proven
                 to be inferior to that of it's successor the 5.45mm x 39mm
                 used in the current standard rifle of the Russian military,
                 the AK-74. The AK-47 is also grossly inaccurate.
2000/10/27 [Reference/Military] UID:19577 Activity:nil
10/26   Replying to peace-loving caste member who love gun freedom:

                                                \_ I don't buy that having
                                                   guns available would make
                                                   a difference in controlling
                                                   government abuses in a
                                                   established democracy
                                                   like the US, with a
                                                   mature system of checks
                                                   and balances and a free
                                                   \_ Except the press is bought
                                                      off and biased.  People
                                                      are people.  Nothing
                                                      magical about the press.

                                                   As for carrying out the
                                                   laws and controlling
                                                   crimes, that's what
                                                   governments are for, or
                                                   would you rather have
                                                   mob justice and blood
                                                   revenges like they have
                                                   Azerbajian or some other
                                                   3rd world hell hole?
                                                   \_ Governments don't always
                                                      "get it right".

                                                   As a matter of fact, I do
                                                   not believe in banning
                                                   guns totally in the US.
                                                   I believe that, given the
                                                   wide availability of guns,
                                                   people should have the
                                                   choice to have a gun for
                                                   personal protection.
                                                   \_ "As a matter of fact, I
                                                      do not believe in banning
                                                      murder totally in the US.
                                                      I believe that, given the
                                                      high murder rate, people
                                                      should have the choice to
                                                      murder or not."

                                                   But if you believe that
                                                   having guns available to
                                                   the general populace have
                                                   helped reduce crime or
                                                   helped curb government
                                                   abuses, I think you are
                                                   very much misguided.
                                                   \_ URL, please.  Don't put
                                                      your opinion as fact on
                                                      the motd without a URL
                                                      to back up your statements.
                                                      It only annoys people who
                                                      are intelligent and want
                                                      a discussion rather than
                                                      a rant.

                                                   In short, having a gun
                                                   may be beneficial to
                                                   an individual in
                                                   specific circumstances,
                                                   but the wide spread
                                                   availability of guns
                                                   has been detrimental
                                                   to the US populace in
                                                   \_ So a good thing for one
                                                      person becomes a bad thing
                                                      when many individuals
                                                      benefit from that same
                                                      thing?  Hello?

                                                   Given the above, I
                                                   think it is right
                                                   to call for tougher
                                                   gun laws, but not to
                                                   ban it altogether.
                                                   \_ Tougher gun laws?  Like?
                                                      This is the phrase a lot
                                                      of the gun ban lobby use
                                                      to cover the writing of
                                                      laws which chip away at
                                                      the 2nd amendment until
                                                      there's isn't one.
        Registering guns annually (or some reasonable time period).  Penalty
        and responsibility if gun registered under you is stolen or used to
        commit a crime.
2000/10/25-26 [Reference/Military] UID:19562 Activity:insanely high
10/25   "Anti-Gun People Suffer Mental Condition"
        You people know who you are.  Also, if anyone wants an introduction
        to shooting at the range so they can make informed decisions,
        mail me.  -jor
        \_ As I recall, the only people jor was arguing with
           were not endorsing banning guns, or even restricting
           their use... they were making fun of his nerdworld
           fantasy of protecting his homestead and democracy
           by himself with his little gun.
           \_ All researches have bias.  The point is, one should judge the
        \_ Wow, a press release pointing to <DEAD><DEAD> ("Jews for the
           Preservation of Firearms Ownership" -- check out their "Ask The
           Rabbi" column!)  *Obviously* no hidden agendas there.  Thanks for
           pointing us to these unbiased third-party researchers selflessly
           leading us to THE TRUTH!!!1!!
           \_ All researchers have bias.  The point is, one should judge the
              research just on it's veracity.
                           \_ The right to keep and bare arms is essential
                \_ exactly what information will "shooting at the range" give
                   us, when the problem is "shooting at the people"
                   \_ The idea is, once you get the feel of a finely
                      crafted firearm exploding powerfully under your control,
                      you wont want anyone taking it away from you.
                           \_ The right to keep and bear arms is essential
                               \_ and the right to bare legs is even more so.
                                   hint: grammarP
                                   \_ someone keeps changing it.
                              for the long term preservation of the republic.
                              The surest way to enslave the populace is to
                              disarm them.
                              A little hint to the anti-gun crowd. Banning
                              guns only hurts law abiding citizens, ie people
                              who obey the law. By definition criminals don't
                              obey the law. They will continue to have weapons,
                              and the common man will not be able to defend

                              \_ Not true in other countries - common
                           \_ You are a moron and a coward.  It amazes me that
                              you half-wits are always so down on people who
                              are obviously your intellectual betters just
                              because they don't hide it well enough. Tom is
                              easily one of the more intelligent people who
                              post to the motd and i'd rather read his troll
                              than anything you have to say, mr. "I'm not smart
                              enough to say something clever so i'll just delete
                              other people's post". -!tom
                                 criminals have difficulty obtaining guns.
                                 We are not talking about the mafia or
                                 triad, but the grocery store robbers.
                                 \_ That's because there isn't a huge SUPPLY.
                                    Why? Because there isnt any business drive
                                    to make guns in a place where owning one
                                    is very difficult to do legally.
                                 \_ You are wrong. It is extermely easy
                                    to get a gun via extra-legal channels.
                                    And let me put it to you this way,
                                    if all the guns where in the hands
                                    of organized crime, they would be the
                                    ones knocking down grocery stores
                                    that failed to pay "protection" fees.
                                    The "common" crook would not exist.
                                    I like my freedom and ill-informed
                                    bleeding hearts will not take it
                                    from me. Those who would trade freedom
                                    for security deserve neither.
                                    \_ I can just see you uttering "Freedom!"
                                       as your last word when your 10-year
                                       old kid shoot you with your .38
                                       thinking he was playing cowboy and

                                       \_ I don't own a gun, I don't have
                                          have kids and even if I did
                                          my kids would not be playing
                                          cowboys and injuns, because
                                          fighting is inappropriate for
                                          people from my caste.
                                          I chose to remain unarmed, but
                                          I should not be forced to be
                                          unarmed. A choice implies freedom,
                                          a ban is the absence of that
                                          freedom. To disarm the populace
                                          is to enslave them.
                                          \_ I disagree that banning gun
                                             is equivlanet to enslaving
                                             the people.  There are lots
                                             of free democratic countries
                                             where guns are banned.  Guns
                                             allow crooks to easily butcher,
                                             rape, rob, hold as hostage,
                                             enslave people from peace-
                                             loving castes like yours.  If
                                             a democratic country needs to
                                             have its populace to have guns to
                                             control its government, its
                                             political system / system of
                                             have its populace have guns in
                                             order to control its government,

                                             its political system / system of
                                             checks and balance must have
                                             really broken down.
                                             \_ When only the government and
                                                the criminals have guns how
                                                do you stop them from taking
                                                your rights away? Government
                                                is a necessary evil, but it
                                                should never be trusted to
                                                put the rights of the
                                                individual before the rights
                                                of the state. The right to
                                                keep and bear arms is the
                                                only way to ensure that our
                                                freedoms cannot be taken
                                                \_ I don't buy that having
                                                   guns available would make
                                                   a difference in controlling
                                                   government abuses in a
                                                   established democracy
                                                   like the US, with a
                                                   mature system of checks
                                                   and balances and a free

                                    \_ Organized crime is as bad or worse
                                       in the US than many countries where
                                       there is gun control.
                                       \_ Gun control only affects law
                                          abiding citizens, not criminals.
                                          Baning guns reduces freedoms
                                          and brings us all one step closer
                                          to enslavement at the hands of
                                          a few armed elitist. We must
                                          have the right to preserve our
                                          freedom by force.
                              A second hint, when the feds have all the guns
                              you will not be able to prevent them from taking
                              your property and your rights.
                              \_ We should require that guns be registered
                                 annually (like cars) or every two years.
                        \_ tom's opinion = troll. deleted.
                              \_ tom is an idiot, but a funny one. I think that
                                 his posts ought to remain uncensored simply for
                                 thier misguided humor content.
                                  \_ I find it amusing that this troll is
                                     not only deleting my posts, but the
                                     posts of people who agree with me, and
                                     entire threads that I participated in.
                                     No wonder he needs a gun--he's a complete
                                     coward.  -tom
                                     \_ Whether or not you are right (and I
                                        don't think that you are), he should
                                        not delete your posts.
                                        \_ sure he should.  tom is an idiot --
                                           and a fat-head to boot.
                                           \_ What harm can an idiot do?
2000/10/20-11/27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:19532 Activity:high 80%like:19918
4/203   April never ended.

          1974AD = 53Ce
          the empire never ended.  PKD  RIP.
        \_ ???
           \_ read Valis.
        \_ Does that mean no more birthdays?  Do we all stop aging?
        \_ April is the cruelest month.

                                         \_ England does not have freedom, Tom.
                                            Recently England jailed a man for
                                            killing a burglar.
                                                \_ ah, so "freedom" includes
                                                   "freedom to murder". -tom
                                                   \_ We call it self defense.
                                                      I suggest that you should
                                                      be imprisoned and retrained
                                                      for assaulting that poor
                                                      guy at the ATM who only
                                                      wanted you to share your
                                         \_ I don't know, but England did
                                            abolish slavery in the 1830s.
                                            \_ Hello?  Modern times?  England
                                               still had colonies until the
                                               middle of the 20th century, too.
                                               What's either have to do with
                                               modern England?  You're right.
                                               You _don't_ know.
                                               \_ Like US has no colonies now?
                \_ Well ya know what they say... a Republican is a Democrat
                   that's been mugged.  I'm sure Tom will be thrilled to know
                   the cops will show up 90 minutes later to take a report
                   after some garbage busts into his house, robs the place,
                   and beats the shit out of him.  Another favorite is "a
                   young man that isn't liberal has no heart, a grown man
                   that isn't conservative is a fool".
                        \_ oh incidentally; I was mugged once, at an ATM in
                           San Bruno, and fought the guy off.  If either of us
                           had had a gun I might have been shot.  -tom
                        \_ I was mugged and am still a liberal. Also, it is
                           "old man" not "grown man" in your quote. -ausman
                                \_ it's also "has no brain" rather than "is
                                   a fool".  -tom
                                   \_ Well, what can you expect from someone
                                      with no brain.
                           \_ Ok, so how exactly would strict guns laws that
                              keep citizens from arming themselves have kept
                              your attacker from being armed?  Law don't keep
                              anyone from doing anything.  They provide a post-
                              facto punishment.  If he was willing to assault
                              and rob you, he's already not concerned with
                              post-crime punishment.  And while we're at it,
                              if you'd had a weapon, you could have apprehended
                              the criminal so he wouldn't turn on some other
                              person less able to physically defend themselves.
                              Thank you for making the streets more dangerous
                              by teaching a criminal how to better choose his
                                \_ Garbage!  Gun laws are not for keeping
                                   law-abiding citizens from owning guns.
                                   \_ What?  Are you nuts?  Who are they written
                                      to keep guns from then?  Are you talking
                                      about the U.S. or somewhere else?  Of
                                      *course* gun laws are written to keep
                                      law abiding citizens from having guns.
                                      --not NRA member or gun owner but awake
                                      \_ They are written to keep them from
                                         people who want to own guns but
                                         can't or do not want to handle
                                         the responsibilities that go with
                                         it.  Are you pretending to be
                                         stupid?  - responsible gun owner.
                                           \_ Hi troll.
        \_ Here's a funny cartoon on the subject:
        \_ [lengthy trolling ranting from tom about gun control purged]
2000/8/3-4 [Reference/Military, Computer/Theory] UID:18857 Activity:nil
        features jordan hubbard, while still at berkeley.
2000/6/25-27 [Transportation/Bicycle, Reference/Military] UID:18547 Activity:nil
6/24    Spike Bike lives!
2000/4/20-22 [Reference/Military] UID:18070 Activity:high
4/20    If a bullet-proof vest penetrating bullet can penetrate bullt-proof
        vests, can it penetrate oil tankers? If I shoot at an oil tanker,
        will it go through the tank gracefully, or will it cause spark and
        \_ According to the Laws of Anime, it will explode.  Immensely.
           Though perhaps not exactly when you expect.  But it will go
        \_ Go ask your question on the Rainbow 6 msg boards.  Someone there
           will know.
        \_ Full metal jacket rounds will typically spark - however if you
           can get a hold of cast lead high power rifle bullets (boat-tail
           profile), I think you can pull this off.  - ciaspook
           \_ Just out of curiosity, do you play R6/RS?
                \_ Do you have a GF ?
                   \_ No.
                   \_ Yes.
                   \_ I just farted.
                      \_ If I shoot at your ass, will it go through
                         gracefully, or will it cause spark and explode?
        \_ It's not as simple a comparison as you seem to think.  For one
           thing, ballistic armor comes in a wide range of threat levels.  A
           vest designed to protect you from a 9mm pistol round isn't going
           to stop a round with a lot more energy behind it (a .44 magnum or
           .454 casull, for example).  For the most part, ballistic armor is
           designed to stop pistol rounds, not rifle rounds.  The amount of
           armor needed to stop a round from a rifle is generally not
           something that you can wear and move around in easily, so it tends
           to get worn by people like bomber pilots.  Then there is the
           composition of the bullet to consider.  The ss-109 5.56mm NATO
           round is lead with a steel core, copper jacket, and tungsten
           penetrator (just beneath the lead nose).  Lead hitting an iron
           tanker probably isn't going to spark, but that steel core most
           likely will.  Will it penetrate?  Depends on the thickness of the
           tank, the caliber being used, and the design of the bullet.  Armor
           piercing rounds are generally different from incendiary rounds.  A
           simple trick is to use an armor piercing round, then an incendiary
           round on the next shot (aasuming you're using something that can
           penetrate the wall of that tanker, which I doubt).
           \_ I think the question is more like, "As a U.S. citizen can
              I Internet mail-order myself a long enough rifle with big
              enough bullets at reasonable cost that will put a hole
              through a tanker wall?"
              \_ All purchases in California must go through a local FFL.
              \_ last I checked - the 62 gr SS109 bullet had an all steel
                 core.  Depending on how volitile the contents of the tanker
                 are - sparking from the entry might enough to set it off
                 (gasoline or propane - possibly, diesel fuel - no way).
                 \_ The ss109 definitely has the tungsten cone at the head of
                    its steel core.  I use them in my AR15, and have seen
                    what they look like if you pull one and slice it
                    lengthwise (even if you want to doubt the spec, which
                    is pretty clear on this point).
              \_ Except that what they transport in those tankers is crude oil,
                 which is far less volatile.
                \_ You'll get a slowly leaking hole of burning petrol that may
                  or may not go out when it hits the water.  Any internal spark
                  will probably lack the necessary O2 to burn within the hold.
2000/2/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:17570 Activity:very high
2/18    Does anybody here know if there are any inherent advantages
        to fighting with a weapon in each hand vs a single weapon?
        Or is that just a hollywoodism?
        \_ Guns or swords?
           \_ I was thinking more in terms of swords/clubs/tonfa/sais etc.
              I've seen a lot of crap extolling the virtues of both one-
              handed styles and two handed styles, and was wondering if
              anyone out there had training and an opinion....
              \_ For 2 swords at least, it's called "Florentine style".
              \_ You keep your two sais.  I'll keep my two .38's or my
                 one .45.  We'll start at 10 paces and see what happens.
              \_ In wooden weapon fighting, with two swords, I kicked ass
                 over anyone with a single weapon. The exception was
                 one guy who was *very* good with a spear. (and long-ass arms)
                 I just barely managed to edge him out in the competition.
                 Summary: It's good to be able to independantly block
                 AND attack at the same time.
                 \_ What kind of swords were you using?
                    \_ chinese curved wooden practice ones.
                       \_ was this SCA?  Were there any restrictions on
                          the type of strokes allowed?  I've heard that
                 AND attack at the same time.
                          the SCA doesn't count sword-point based moves.
                 \_ .45
                     \_ The standard.  Handgun caliber.
                        \_ 9mm is the standard caliber for both Army
                           and law enforcement, dumbass.  (though I think
                           the FBI uses a cut-down 10mm)  As for the idea
                           of a 'standard' pistol (I assume that's what
                           you mean by 'handgun' -- as opposed to a
                           submachine gun) caliber -- get a clue.  There
                           hasn't been anything approaching a standard
                           caliber for pistols for about 100-150+ years --
                           you know...since the old west.  Fuckwit.
                           \_ The beretta is not a real gun.  It choked on
                              politics, .45ACP is about reliably killing people.
                              sand in the Desert Storm, and people brought out
                              the old 1911's that worked.  9mm is about NATO
                              politics,.45ACP is about reliably killing people.
                              You don't want to get into this argument with me.
                              \_ Right on!  A man with clue!  I didn't claim
                                 the beretta was a good gun -- it's merely the
                 \_ .45
                 \_ What kind of competition?  Don't people get seriously
                    \_ The point is to hurt your enemy and save yourself.
                        \_ If I was to have a "competition" with the
                           people in my school, someone would end up
                           either dead or severely injured.  Unless you
                           got to wear lots of pads and had lots of rules
                           about where you could strike.  - mikeym
              \_ It takes a lot of practice to effectively manage a 2 front
                 attack, but it can be very challenging to deal with if
                 you've only got 1 thing to defend with.  That's why I say
                 attack with 5 things at the same time (limbs + head).
              \_ My experience with swords: if you use a sword two-handed
                 you can use the leverage between your hands to get a lot
                 -- mikeym
                 more speed and power.  Your blocks are also much stronger
                 when you use a sword two-handed, and there's all kinds of
                 cool stuff you can do with one sword if you use it one-
                 handed and put the other hand against the back.  Using a sword
                 one-handed gives you extra reach, and using two swords
                 lets you parry with one.  I personally think that if
                 you're going to use two swords it's best to use one long
                 and one short so you can operate at different ranges.
                 I only have experience with Japanese swords, though.
                 E-mail me for more if you want.  -- mikeym
              \_ I just remembered something.  If your opponent is wearing
                 armor, I think that two-handed is better, because your
                 strikes are much more powerful.  -- mikeym
              \_ The katana and wakasahi(sp?) are excellent tools, but
                 rarely were they used at the same time.  Usually, the
                 wakasahi was used in close quarters or when your katana
                 was otherwise unavailable.  There is a famous story of a
                 samurai who did fight with 2 katanas and did quite
                 well.  Perhaps we should hold an experiment.
                 \_ I think that in general, they used one sword for
                    duels.  When they did use two swords at once, it was
                    normally in combat with many people.  However, I have
                    seen one-on-one practices where one person uses
                    both the long and short swords at once. -mikeym
                                 'standard'.  It just bugs me to see some
                                 little snipe trying to be clever about
                                 something he's TOTALLY clueless about.
2000/1/4-5 [Reference/Military] UID:17156 Activity:moderate
1/4     society didn't end, now I'm pissed, time to go postal with
        my new assault weapons I got before the ban. who wants to die 1st?
        \_ME! (but i must warn you, i'm a much better shot than you are).
        \_ If you were a real gun owner, you wouldn't call your weapon an
           'assault rifle'.
           \_ Why?
           \_ "assault weapon" is a term used by gun grabbers to describe
               semiautomatic rifles that look 'evil.'
               \_ Actually I am, i just wanted to irk the liberals here.
           \_ He didn't say his weapons were guns.
               \_ you are one scarey, scarey guy.
        \_ Go on down to and take on Thresh.  See if those "twitch
           reflexes" do him any good in person.
           \_ I doubt the rocket-blast-at-my-feet-to-jump-better thing works
              well in person.  Sometimes a geek is just a geek.
1999/11/29-12/1 [Recreation/Food, Reference/Military] UID:16968 Activity:nil
11/30   Click and feed the hungry. Verified
        as legit from urban legends and through UN friends.  -nivra
        \_ Do they use linux?  The hungry, I mean.
        \_ Do they ride bike?
1999/11/4-5 [Transportation/Airplane, Reference/Military] UID:16829 Activity:high
11/3    How do AF pilots know whether to deploy chaff or flair? Wouldn't
        they need to know whether they are being aimed by heat seeking
        missile or radar guided missile?
        \_ It's a Hollywood thing.  Ask your flight combat instructor or
           script writer for details.
        \_ same way a police radar detector knows when a police radar
           gun is painting the car.  usually, if it's coming from
           another plane it's heat seeking.  even the u.s. rarely uses
           radar guided missles from planes.  low altitude surface to
           air missles are usually heat seeking too and high altitude
           ones are a combo of both.
           \_ that's not quite correct. it's about range. a heat seeking
              missile can only be fired at a closer range. the reason why
              the U.S. rarely uses radar-guided is because at BVR, you can't
              be too sure of the target due to ROE, even with an AWACs.
              there radars can discern between radar and heating seeking
              same reason why the Phoenix has never been used in combat.
        \_ They do know.  Didn't you see Top Gun?
              deploy chaff or flairs.
              \_ "their", "flare"
               \_ it is all about bellbottoms
              \_ What are BVR, ROE and AWAC?
              \_ Inaccurate?  You mean pilots don't have tacky colored
                 helmets and sleep with their hot flight instructors?
                        \-dont ask dont tell --psb
                 Beyond Visual Range, Rules Of Engagement, Airbone Warning
                 And Control (plane).
           \_ Top Gun was horribly inaccurate movie. Pilots know because
              their radars can discern between radar and heating seeking
        \_ I think you're screwed if it's heat-seeking with no radar
        \_ radar guided missiles emit strong radar signatures while heat
           sinking missiles don't. If the aircraft is equipped with that
           super high-tech radar stuff, a heat seaker looks like a really
           small fast metal thing coming right at you while a radar guided
           missile looks like a really small fast metal thing coming right
           at you and emitting its own radar signals making it a really,
           really bright small fast metal thing. Additionally, it amazes
           me how any of you got into cal. With any small amount of
            \_ yeah and as if your answer shows that you know what you are
               talking about.
           thought, a question like this is absolutely trivial but to
           assume berkeley fuckers will think for themselves has proven
           time and time again to be a fruitless waste of time. I have
           decided to take advantage of this lazy intellect by feeding the
           thoughts of other to one day convince you all I am your messiah
           at which point I would train you all to follow the exhalted
           and transcendental path of the lemming. - (fucker)
              and notify their pilots of this through unique squeek sounds
              heard in their headset. Also some systems can be set to auto
              deploy chaff or flares
1999/10/25-26 [Reference/Military] UID:16770 Activity:high
10/24   How do you get rid of your mother in law? Thanks.
1998/11/14-16 [Reference/Military, Reference/Religion] UID:14957 Activity:moderate
11/13   Hello UN Weapons inspector. Thanks for not inspecting us in the past
        couple of days, giving us ample time to hide our weapons of mass
        destruction. Feel free to inspect us now. Thanks.
        \_ hello again UN Weapons inspectors. I'm so glad you fell for this
           crap for a third time. Nobody thought you would.
           Now would you might bending over just a *little* more?
                \_ Lucky Inspectors, bending over
        \_ There seems to be a lot of backslash against Muslim countries and
           its leadership. Muslim is a good religion and you guys should have
           more respect for its belief.                            -muslim #1
                \_ This guy isn't Muslim, just a fake. If he was Muslim,
                   he would have said "Islam is a good religion."
                \_ No, just against the ones that blow up airplanes and
                   eat babies and burn US flags.  We like bombing non-muslim
                   countries who do that also, nothing personal.  -John
2022/06/30 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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