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2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/16   

2009/1/12-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52359 Activity:nil
1/12    Is this an example of terrorism?
        "The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not
        like you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure
        would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's
        Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid they would
        say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant, put a
        sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put commo
        wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the
        village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
        Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
        'April Fool, motherfucker.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted.\
        As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a Communist,
        including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to camp with
        ears to prove that they killed people."
        \_ this is:
           http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1111203/Protesters-clash-police-100-000-strong-London-Gaza-demo-descends-violence.html
           http://tinyurl.com/a77k7l  [dailymail]
           \_ As much as the last administration tried to claim the
              contrary, protest is not terrorism.
              \_ it is, if it's done by saracens!
2009/1/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52356 Activity:moderate
1/11    Joe The Plumber: the media should be abolished
        http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/01/joe-plumber-media-shouldnt-report-war.html
        \_ Can you please just let this idiot go away already?
           \_ I would, but the media won't.  "Pajamas Media" hired him as a
              "Gaza war correspondent," and he still gets FoxNews/CNN face time.
              "Gaza war correspondent," and he still gets FoxNews/CNN face
              time.
               \_ Because you still pay attention to the idiot.
2009/1/9-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52346 Activity:high
1/9     What You Don't Know About Gaza:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html?em
        \_ "As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the
            Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian
            population of the Gaza Strip."
           Rubbish. Hamas, as the elected government, is responsible for the
           welfare of the civilian population. Now, if you want to make the
           case that Hamas is severely hampered in this by the Israelis,
           that's a different thing.
           \_ I thought Isreal does not recognize them as the legitimate
              government, so refuses to negotiate with them.
              \_ Israel has negotiated ceasefires with them before.
           "The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is
            potentially a war crime.... In contrast, there have been around a
            dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers."
           Firing rockets indiscriminately into a country _is_ targeting
           civilians, no matter how unsuccessful the attacks are. You don't
           get a by on war crimes just because your aim is bad.
           "Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and
            other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had
            Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its
            blockade of the Gaza Strip."
           Or Hamas might have gotten its hands on more long range rockets
           and shelled more civilians in Israel. Or the Easter Bunny and the
           Mahdi might have arrived and opened a sushi restaurant. The latter
           is more likely than Israeli negotiations stopping Hamas launching
           rockets.
        \_ What you don't know about Hamas
           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I
           \_ How would I not know this? The US media is full of anti-Hamas
              propaganda. Aren't they still officially a "terrorist"
              organization, according to the Bush Administration?
              \_ I would think so.  What part of Hamas makes them NOT a
                 terrorist organization?  I mean, they do commit acts of
                 terrorism and all.
                 \_ What is your definition of "terrorist organization"?
                    Are you the same guy above who states that Hamas is the
                    elected government of Gaza?
                    \_ Nooo.... they took over Gaza by force. Again, not seeing
                       how this makes them NOT a terrorist organization.  A
                       terroist organization is an org that uses terrorism
                       to achive their aims.  Hamas' "humanitarian" arm doesn't
                       really change that fact about them.
                       \_ What is "terrorism", by your definition?
                          \_ You have trouble using a dictionary or something?
                             Pretty much everyone, including the EU, agrees
                             Hamas engages in terrorism by any common
                             definition.  Why don't you answer my question?
                             How is Hamas not a terrorist org?  While were at
                             it What's YOUR definition of terrorism?
                             \_ I don't know what the definition is of
                                terrorism, which is why I avoid using the word.
                                I think it is amusing that you like to throw
                                around terms you can't even define.
                                \_ I think it's amusing that you don't know
                                   how to read a dictionary.  You can even
                                   google for definitions now.  Can you google?
                                   \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
                                      "At present, there is no internationally
                                       agreed definition of terrorism."
                                      "The concept of terrorism is itself
                                       controversial because it is often used
                                       by states to delegitimize political
                                       opponents, and thus legitimize the
                                       state's own use of terror against
                                       those opponents."
                                       See, you learned something new today!
                                       \_ "Common definitions of terrorism
                                          refer only to those acts which are
                                          intended to create fear (terror),
                                          are perpetrated for an ideological
                                          goal (as opposed to a lone attack),
                                          and deliberately target or disregard
                                          the safety of non-combatants.
                                          Some definitions also include acts
                                          of unlawful violence and war."
                                          And yet, all the difinitions cover
                                          Hamas.  Again, what exactly is your
                                          point?  I mean, aside from having
                                          your own little pedanticness
                                          championship.
                                          \_ My point is that calling someone
                                             a "terrorist" really doesn't do
                                             anything to describe them and in
                                             fact is a way of avoiding
                                             discussion, rather than actually
                                             having one. The point of having a
                                             dicussion is to communicate,
                                             having one. The point of
                                             communication is to communicate,
                                             right? Unless you are just typing
                                             to make yourself feel good, in
                                             which case, carry on Sir!
                                             which case, carry on Sir! Your
                                             definition as stated above makes
                                             many US military commanders
                                             "terrorists" including whoever
                                             ordered the firebombing of Tokyo,
                                             so I personally find it
                                             unsatisfactory, though perhaps
                                             this is fine with you. Regarding
                                             Hamas specifically, there is the
                                             question as to whether they
                                             qualify as a "State Actor" or not,
                                             which I do not have the answer to.
                                             Who decides what is a legitimate
                                             government or not? Do you?
              \_ So you didn't watch the video of them killing other
                 palestinians for singing at a wedding?
              \_ You know the EU designates them as such as well, right?
                 \_ So you believe that the EU is the final authority in the
                    topic of terrorism?
        \_ What a moron.  When you build and launch rockets from a civilian
           school, you're responsible
           http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com/2009/01/images-they-show.html
2009/1/7-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52332 Activity:low 57%like:52328
1/6     Sanjay Gupta?  Really?  -->  New surgeon general of USA
        \_ But inside he is as white as KKK's white satins sheets.
        \- a friend of mine was in a lot of classes with him
           in high school. apparently he was kind of a sociopath,
           but evidently sociopaths make good neurosurgeons.
           it's too bad he didnt pick AGAWNDE.
           \_ Isn't everyone in high school kind of a sociopath?
              \_ Only the people worth knowing.
        \_ Indians have a core competency (+2) in Medicine.
           \_ well they sure can't code or sink pirates
           \_ The Danes have +2 hitpoint in axe and in bezerk mode.
              \_ +5 to hp and Str if we're drinking Akvaavit.
           \_ The Asians have +1 intellect and -4 in shield
           \_ Only if you mean getting degrees. In my experience they aren't
              necessarily good doctors. At least clinicians. Surgeons might
              be something else entirely. Not enough experience to say.
              \_ wrong stereotype. you're thinking of asians.
              \_ My Indian GP rules. --white guy
                 \_ i pick white doctors.
                 \_ I've had best experiences, by far, with Jewish doctors
                    over Indian, Asian, Arab, African, Russian, Armenian,
                    or caucasian, although I had a really good Italian
                    neurologist. Lots of Asian doctors are good, too, but only
                    if they are born in the US, especially the women. I had a
                    mysterious health ailment that required me to visit many,
                    many doctors of many specialties and, if I didn't have a
                    referral, I started going to the Jewish specialists (and
                    Cedars Sinai hospital). It was a Jewish gastroenterologist
                    who finally diagnosed and cured me. My pediatrician growing
                    up was also Jewish and overall I found the Jewish doctors
                    don't really know more or less, but have a better bedside
                    manner and were more likely to actually to have a
                    conversation and *listen* to me, which aided diagnosis.
                    \_ Why do you hate Israel?
2009/1/5-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52315 Activity:kinda low
1/5     About half a block's worth of protesters just showed up at the Fed
        Bldg in SF demanding Israel out of Gaza. Not a bad showing, given
        the cold and the sprinkling rain. --erikred
        \_ They're too stupid to stay out of the rain.  Just like they're too
           stupid to understand what's going on in Gaza.
           \_ The rain works to their benefit.  "Anti-Israel protesters
              demonstrated outside Fed Bldg amid chilly rain" vs. "Anti-Israel
              protester demonstrated outside Fed Bldg in cozy sunny weather."
           \_ What is going on in Gaza that this war/bombing thing will solve?
              Evidently those rockets keep coming.  Should they just firebomb
              them all into oblivion?  They should have wiped them out back in
              the sixties.  Some of these guys will never accept the loss of
              lands to "the Zionist enemy" so they will always have these
              rockets etc.  Maybe they could come up with some sort of giant
              laser weapon to instantly blow away the source of a rocket
              rockets etc.
        \_ I really doubt Israel can defeat the Palestinian demographic
           birthrate bomb.  They should surrender now.
           \_ Israel won the 7 day war....  It's not how big the military,
              it's how good it is.
              \_ He's talking about then citizen birthrate.  See "those
                 scary brown people are going to outreproduce us!" for
                 more info.
                 \_ They already did.  It's not about whether they're scary,
                    but this is lowering everybody's standard of living.
                    It's happening all over the world.
                    \_ call it revenge for centures of economic oprression
                       and uncle toms.
                       \_ Yes let's sink the boat we're all in for revenge
                          against people who are dead.
                          Who gives a shit?  Have more kids, struggle like rats
                          to get that Black Friday sale item.
        \_ http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/L/7/3/Chosen-People.jpg
        \_ http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/chosenness-and-its-enemies-13662
        \_ the one million plus people crammed into the west bank are going
           to overflow into Israel eventually.  might as well get used to it.
           I salute the military might of Israel but the math says they're
           screwed.
           \_ now you know why "no birth control" and "every
              sperm is sacred" are key tenets in fightin' faiths
           \_ The West Bank is not really that crowded, but Gaza sure as
              hell is.
2008/9/26-10/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:51315 Activity:nil
9/26    The Settlers in Israel are taking on their own government:
        http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/26/africa/26settlers.php
        \_ But do they have wood for sheep?
2008/9/14-19 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:51167 Activity:low
9/14    Good-bye, Britain:
        http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
        ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts
        given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.
        \_ Just like how the Jewish courts run there too?  At least they
           stooped so low as to have non-judges presid and make judgements for
           kangaroo courts broadcast on television like here.
           \_ Ummm... TV courts aren't leagally binding beyond the contract
              you sign when you go on.  That's a huge difference. -!pp
              \_ "Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as
                 arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals
                 are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute
                 agree to give it the power to rule on their case."
                 It's the same thing.  Civil case.  "Law" means under contract
                 law.  You go to agree to arbitraion and you agree to the
                 results, you are now under contract.  This is nothing
                 but fear mongering and racism.
                 \_ yea, what he said. -ppp
           \_ Sharia tends to be a bit more murdery and misogynist, don't you
              think?
2008/9/10-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:51126 Activity:nil
9/10    http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/16/mccain-aid-israel
        John McCain want's to stop all aid to Israel.
        (Ok, no he doesn't, but it's proof that John McCain is willing to
        say any old shit he thinks sounds good without actually worrying
        about if what he says is reasonable.)
        \_ Why do we do this anyway? Send many billions to both Israel and
           Egypt.  Who wants to try defending that?
           \_ It is cheaper than a war in the ME.
2008/6/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50243 Activity:nil
6/12    If Gaddafi doesn't like him, he must be good:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7450000.stm
        \_ Gaddafi is late, Obama already retracted that.
           \_ With Gaddafi, I don't think it matters much.
2008/6/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50135 Activity:nil
6/3     Zombie at "Israel in the Gardens 2008"
        http://www.zombietime.com/israel_in_the_gardens_2008/Israel
        Looks like it was a nice festival.  Maybe I should go next year.
        \_ "All land is holy, all people are chosen" is anti-semetic?  This
           guy is hillarious.
        \_ I see keffiyehs!
           \_ It's just a scarf, it doesn't mean anything! -JAS guy #1 fan
2008/6/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50123 Activity:nil
6/2     Jimmy Carter:  For CHANGE!!!!
        http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=492_1212423029
2008/5/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50100 Activity:nil
5/30    "The kaffiyeh has emerged as a symbol of resistance against oppression
        worldwide"
        http://www.thestar.com/living/article/433754
        IT'S JUST A SCARF!1!!! BLUGGA AUGH WHUMPA!!11!
        \_ It's just a scarf.  You are just an idiot.
2008/4/21-5/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49791 Activity:kinda low
4/19    Israel's dilemma
        http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/israel
        \_ I'm sympathetic to Isreal's plight, but that's a horrid fairly one
           sided article.
           \_ In which ways is it one-sided?
           \_ On who's side is it?
        \_ Carter has already done more for peace in the Middle East in two
           weeks than Bush has in two terms in office:
           http://www.csua.org/u/lbm (NYT)
           \_ It's hard to argue with your assertion, but the accomplishment
              cited here has already been contradicted:
              http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359661.stm
           \_ I totally agree, Bush has really screwed things up, but he can't
              hold a candle to Carter.
           \_ You're nuts.  The kind of peace where Israel pulls back to the
              1967 borders and gives 10 years for Hamas to build up in exchange
              for nothing?  It's suicidal.  Is this a troll?
              \_ Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Automatically,
                 without question. Oddly enough, I think that you are more
                 likely to come to peace with someone you are negotiating with
                 than someone you are shooting at. I don't think for a second
                 that Israel will (or should) agree to all of Hamas' terms,
                 but I do think that if they don't start talking, there will
                 never be peace.
              \_ Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
                 Automatically, without question. Oddly enough, I think that
                 you are more likely to come to peace with someone you are
                 negotiating with than someone you are shooting at. I don't
                 think for a second that Israel will (or should) agree to all
                 of Hamas' terms, but I do think that if they don't start
                 talking, there will never be peace.
                 \_ Do you have any idea what Hamas is talking about or any
                    knowledge of the history of the region, Hamas, or anything
                    else going on?  Have you read the Hamas charter?  No.
                    Here: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
                    When Hamas stops *firing rockets in Israel almost every
                    day!* there might be something to talk about.  Until that
                    time they are at war with Israel who they don't even
                    acknowledge the legitimate existence of and have made very
                    clear very loudly their only goal is Israel's destruction.
                    There is no compromising with someone whose only reason
                    for being is your death.  You can't be a "little bit" dead.
                    Maybe you're not a troll, just naive.
                    \_ You don't have to negotiate for peace with your friends,
                       only those you are at war with. You seem to forget this
                       basic fact. History is full of examples of hostile
                       neighbors full of angry rhetoric eventually getting
                       tired of fighting and then making peace. Why are these
                       two any different?
                       \_ Well, one side obviously isn't tired of it yet, for
                          one thing.
                       \_ Very uplifting.  Now go read some real history.  Far
                          more conflicts have been resolved with the Rome vs.
                          Carthage model than the "We got tired of killing
                          your civilians with daily rocket attacks from our
                          side of the border, we're going to give up our holy
                          quest to kill you all and throw a tea and crumpets
                          party for you, our new friends and neighbors, peace
                          be unto you, brothers!"  Negotiated peace only comes
                          when at least one side has been defeated and is
                          unwilling or unable to continue fighting.  Until
                          then there is nothing to talk about.
                          \_ Who lost in the Catholic vs. Protestant wars in
                             Northern Ireland?
                             \_ You mean the modern version with the IRA, bombs
                                etc?  Everyone lost.  The English were
                                unwilling to apply the force required to win
                                a military victory, didn't want or consider
                                a heart and minds conversion, and both sides
                                lost a number of people for no real purpose.
                                This has exactly what to do with trying to
                                talk with psychotics like Hamas?  Nothing.
                                Go read Hamas' charter and come back if you're
                                serious about discussing this further.
                                \_ Hamas is no nuttier than the Real IRA.
                                   \_ That's an opinion.  Factually incorrect,
                                      but no one can stop you from believing
                                      things that aren't true.  Have at it.
                                      The "Real IRA" stopped blowing things up
                                      after the English left them alone.  When
                                      Israel steps back, Hamas just moves
                                      closer so they can fire rockets further
                                      into Israel.  If it was San Francisco
                                      getting shelled every day (or whatever
                                      town you live in), you'd be screaming
                                      the loudest how "We have to kill them
                                      all and why hasn't the incompetent BUSH
                                      admin stopped the bad guys yet?!"
                                      \_ Israel has never, ever stepped back.
                                      \_ The Real IRA has not given up and
                                         in fact, continues to operate:
                                         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA
                                         You certainly have strong opinions for
                                         one so lightly informed.
                                         \_ Did you read your own link?  The
                                            so called Real IRA is dead.  There
                                            is more Real Crime in LA every
                                            day than these goofballs have
                                            managed since their founding in 97.
                                \_ Which side is unwilling to negotiate?
                                   http://www.csua.org/u/lch (Yahoo News)
                                   \_ We've seen this one before. "We would
                                      like to kill you, would you please open
                                      the gate?"
                                   \_ Wow, you are incredibly naive.  "We need
                                      6 months to rearm for the next round of
                                      attacks.  We'll stop attacking you for
                                      those 6 months if you let us bring in
                                      more weapons".  You can't possibly be
                                      this dumb.  Thus, I label you: troll.
                                      You still clearly haven't read the Hamas
                                      charter, either.  You won't make it more
                                      than a few paragraphs in before your
                                      eyes glaze at the insanity and seething
                                      hatred.
                                      \_ I read about half of it. I will finish
                                         the rest later. It is full of a bunch
                                         of religious mumbo-jumbo.
                                         of religious mumbo-jumbo. Unlike you,
                                         I have actually been to Jerusalem, the
                                         West Bank and Gaza, so it is kind of
                                         amusing that you bounce back and forth
                                         between calling me ignorant and a
                                         troll. Perhaps I am as informed as you
                                         and just disagree.
                                         \_ I'm stunned that you think putting
                                            a maple leaf on your hawaiian
                                            tshirt during your weekend
                                            excursion to the region makes you
                                            an expert.  You would have been
                                            better off if you said you saw
                                            something on the history channel.
                                            \_ I saw it on the History Channel
2008/4/16-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49763 Activity:nil
4/16    Netanyahu says 9/11 terror attacks good for Israel
        http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975574.html
        \_ You mean they weren't?
2008/3/29-4/6 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49609 Activity:nil
3/28    The Hamas charter.  Not quite the Declaration of Independence....
        http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
2008/3/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49426 Activity:low
3/11    What's the difference between the word "Jew" and "Jewish"?
        \_ A Jew is a Jewish person. Jew is a noun, Jewish is an adjective.
           Like, duh.
           \_ Interestingly, the word "Jew" by itself is far more likely to
              be used by anti-Semites than the word "Jewish."  Google the word
              "Jew" and read their disclaimer for a more involved explanation.
2008/2/29-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49305 Activity:nil 97%like:49298
2/28    The lying, despicable campaign to turn Jews against Obama
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/38zy54 (tpm)
        \_ Man, I keep misreading this as:
           'The lying, despicable campaign of the Jews against Obama'
        \_ I read the first 10 paragraphs or so before I couldn't take it
           anymore.  This opinion piece is just stupid and fact free.
           \_ So you think that attempting to Godwin Obama is legit?
              \_ No one is Godwining Obama.  Or if they are this 'article'
                 certainly doesn't make a strong case for it.  The flip side
                 of the Godwin thing is that you're not being Godwinned if the
                 charges are true, which remains to be seen in Obama's case,
                 since he's a good speaker but doesn't say much.
                 \_ I see.  So you're in bed with the smear tactics.  Cool,
                    got it.
                    \_ That line doesn't even make sense. Shessh. -!pp
                    \_ Classic case of reading what you want to read, instead
                       of reading what was said.  Your Rhetoric 1A grade to
                       date is "F," but you still have time to pull it up to a
                       "C" if you work at it and come to office hours every
                       week.  -pp
        \_ This really is a poorly written article.  It's making a mountain of
           a molehill (Tim Russert) who was already making a molehill of a
           pebble (Farrakhan).  It's like cascading stupidity.
           \- i thought it was a decent article. it is about more than
              just the tim russert issue. it might have been nice to have
              a few more facts about how "marginal" farrakhan is, but i can
              understand why he didnt get into it ... i think most of his
              audience would have been willing to accept farrakhan = nutjob
              and you dont need to do much more than draw the analogy to an
              endorsement from David Duke.
2008/2/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49298 Activity:nil 97%like:49305
2/28    The lying, despicable campaign to turn Jews against Obama
        http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/29/the_lying_despicable_campaign
2008/2/27-3/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49273 Activity:nil
2/27    64% of Israelis support direct talks with Hamas government
        http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958473.html
        \_ I tought Hamas were supposed to be terrorists?
        \_ I thought Hamas were supposed to be terrorists?
           \_ They are.  They're still lobbing rockets over the border and
              slipping suicide bombers in every so often.  About the only
              good thing about them is how many PLO/Fatah thugs they killed
              when they took over Gaza.
              \_ Isreal negotiates with terrorists now?
2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/16   

2008/2/27-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49272 Activity:nil
2/27    Tennessee GOP slimes Obama for being a Jew-hater, or supported by
        Jew-haters, or....something.  Expect to see a lot, lot more of this.
        http://www.tngop.org/wordpress/?p=113
        http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/tennessee_gop_smears_obama_wit.php
2008/1/29-2/2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49032 Activity:low
1/28    Fun Fact: Each Gaza resident requires 1/2 ton of flour per day to
        survive!
        http://sandbox.blog-city.com/gaza_buried_in_flour.htm
        \_ If they eat so much, they must be full of shit.
        \_ still waiting for jblack to say something about Jewish
           controlled liberal media.
           \_ I haven't seen a Freeper post in months, so I suspect that
              jblack has given up on us.
        \_ 680,000 pounds = 340 tons.  Simple error.
           \_ I think it was done on purpose.
              \_ why, because a 75% reduction in food availability wouldn't
                 be dramatic enough?  It's an error.  -tom
            \_ Sure it's an error, but it didn't attain head-slapping
               status until the guys at the Boston Globe put the 99%
               on there.  At which point someone should have noticed. -op
2008/1/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48957 Activity:nil
1/6     They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions
        Confront Israel's Lobby
        http://tinyurl.com/3cxpte
2007/11/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48517 Activity:nil
11/1    West Bank belongs to Israel!!!
2007/11/1-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48514 Activity:moderate
11/1    Gaza. West Bank. Good bye.
        \_ yet another example of failed colonization (YES colonization,
           where the government actually encouraged Israeli settlers to
           move into the newly acquired land after 1967).
           \_ But colonization is one of the best ways to hold territory.
              I read it in The Prince, so it has to be true.
        \_ What. Are you. Talking about.
        \_ No. Good riddens. I totally support Israel's unilateral
           disengagement plan. Instead of pouring countless resources
           into military and security outposts in and out of Arab land
           now can relax and watch the Arabs kill each other from afar.
           As for all those the Arab Qassam rockets that are being fired
           into Israel, well, better that than precision suicide bombers
           on the homeland.
           \_ Does this mean Isreal is finally going to abandon all the
           \_ Does this mean Israel is finally going to abandon all the
              settlements deep in Palestinian territory? If so, this is
              the best news for the region in 20 years.
              \_ If they do, do you expect the Palestinians to stop lobbing
                 rockets into Israel?  If they continue firing rockets, what
                 do you think Israel should do about it?
                 \_ They're going to bomb the hell out of them. -!pp
                 \_ They are lobbing rockets into Israel from the West Bank?
2007/10/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48426 Activity:moderate
10/24   new OINK tracker up
        http://oink.on.nimp.org/6969
        \_ This is basically an animated goatse that fucks your browser.
           At the very least, don't try this link at work.  -niloc
        \_ This is basically an animated, loud goatse that fucks your
           browser.  It has nothing to do with OINK.  -niloc
           \_ thanks niloc really appreciate your help.  -motd spam hater
        \_ maybe next time you can post a link to a 0-day virus'd page.  tx.
2007/10/21-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48404 Activity:low 76%like:48396
10/19   People say "jew-lery" and "re-lator" instead of
        jewelry and realtor. Are these proper pronunciations?
        \_ I don't think so.
           \_ Racist!
              \_ So you think "realtor" and "relator" should sound the same?
                 -- PP, Chinese
        \_ I have never heard anyone sal jelery.  Re-lator is because
           Realtor (tm!) is a stupid fucking made up word that would never
           be an english word if someone hadn't made it up.  The l to t
           transision is just fucked up.
           \_ hello bitter housing guy! How's your rent?
            \_ Not bitter housing guy, just bitter abuse of the english
               language guy.
        \_ Thats totally NUKULAR!
           \_ Isn't this an accepted pronunciation in one of the
              dictionaries?
              \_ Only if you're a fan of Jimmy Carter.
                 \_ Or Dubya. Is this just a Southern thang?
                    \_ Dunno but JC was way ahead of Dubya on the Nukular thing
2007/10/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48356 Activity:very high
10/17   Watson on black people
        http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece
        \_ Even if there is a genetic difference in intelligence
           between races, so what if there is?  Every *individual*
           should still be afforded the same opportunity and not
           face systematic discrimination.  Further, even if it
           is true that there is a measureable difference it doesn't
           justify racism.  It could easily turn out that Chinese
           or Jews test out smarter than whites:  does that give
           them the right to be the "master race"?
           \_ Yes. We already control most of the media         -jewish
           \_ The theory of evolution says the master race should proliferate
              and the proponents of evolution will claim that it is
              completely reversed right now (blacks/latinos have more
              ~6 kids, whites have ~1.6 kids). Thus, the proponents will
              favor furthering evolution with racism.
              ~6 kids, whites have ~1.6 kids). Thus, proponents of
              evolution will most likely favor evolution with racism.
              \_ No, evolution says proliferation is a natural advantage.
                 Having more kids survive shows that you're the master race.
                 \_ Well then, I need to bow down to my INNNNDIAN friend
                    at 7-11 because apparently, he's the MASTER RACE.
                    \_ And Aryan to boot!
           \_ No, we're not 'the master race'.  That is a Nazi thing.  But
              the sooner you come to accept that we are God's Chosen People,
              the happier you'll be.
                \_ "master race" not "masturbator race"
              \_ My brother converted from Catholicism to Judaism. We're
                 genetically Scandinavian. Which Chosen People is he?
                 \_ I hope a hot Jewish female with enormous breasts was
                    involved.  Did he convert for marriage purposes?
                 \_ If he married a Jewish girl, his kids are Jewish.  There
                    is no hope for him directly.
                    \_ You haven't answered the question.
                       \_ There's only one "God's Chosen People".
                          \_ Whoa! You're going go for the genetic purity of
                             the people of Yahweh argument? You're reducing the
                             number of God's Chosen People to a rough score,
                             my friend, and unless you've got a 3,000 year
                             pedigree, it doesn't include you.
                             \_ Uh no, see above, "If he married a Jewish
                                girl, his kids are Jewish".  We're good to go
                                on the Chosen People thing.
                    \_ What's your Halachic source for this, Rabbi?
                       \_ The motd of course.  What more do I need?
                 \_ HAHAHAHAHA.
           \_ It's only nutty elitism that values IQ more than (say) being a
              nice person, or having skill at a trade.  Being a plumber often
              pays better than an engineer/doctor/lawyer (and can't be
              outsourced), yet vocational training has been systematically
              eliminated in schools in favor of forcing every high school to be
              college prep.  Still, his comment addressing foreign policy to
              black nations could be accurate or could be wrong.
              \_ name the plumber that gets paid more than an engineer, doc,
                 or lawyer.  and no, pro-bono lawyering doesn't count.  the
                 carpenter i talked to yesterday was bitching about getting
                 $25/hr.  he could have got $33/hr but the work wouldn't be
                 as consistent at another place.
                 \_ I had a plumber come out to my place last week and he
                    charges $80/hr for his services. He works for himself,
                    so yeah, he has overhead, but he probably keeps most
                    of that. O'Grady plumbing, they do good work:
                    http://www.ogradyplumbing.com
                    \_ He's not getting paid $80/hr x 8hr x 5days x 50weeks.
                       His yearly income is going to be lower than the 100k
                       engineer, the 200k doctor or the 400k lawyer.  If he
                       makes 50k hes lucky.  His benefit is being his own
                       boss, not the income.  He's not pulling down 160k.
                       \_ I think you greatly underestimate what contractors
                          make. True, the journeyman isn't making that
                          much money. However, the foremen and the owners
                          make plenty of money. I know a lot of
                          tradespeople and they do very well. $160K is
                          very possible and guys with a lot of business
                          probably do better than that. I know a guy who
                          installs fire sprinklers. He's been doing it 8
                          years and he joined the union. He works for a
                          big company that installs fire systems in
                          commercial buildings. He makes $85K per year and
                          he doesn't even have a degree. In another so many
                          years he'll be well over $100K - about what an
                          engineer makes - and that's working for someone else.
                          He learned his vocation through 4 years in the
                          Navy. I think vocational training is much
                          neglected. Skilled tradespeople (especially in a
                          niche like wrought iron or cabinetry or whatever)
                          make a lot of money. The undocumented Mexican
                          guy is making $25/hour. A legal, clean-cut
                          caucasian or Asian guy makes twice that and also
                          has the Mexican guy work for him because he can
                          line up work for the other guy who doesn't even
                          speak English. If you own a house you'd know how
                          much you pay to have work done and it isn't cheap.
                          You'd also know that a lot of the better guys
                          turn work away because they have so much of it.
                          \_ If you are paying the undocumented Mexican
                             $25/hr, you are getting ripped off.
                             \_ Not really. He's probably getting $15 from
                                the guy who hired him and that guy is
                                then making $10 in profit/overhead. Do
                                something like get your hardwood floors
                                refinished or have some tile installed
                                (both take some skill and floors are hard
                                work). Do you think the guy is going to do it
                                for $8/hour? Not if he's any good he's not,
                                undocumented or not.
                                \_ So then you are paying $15 to the guy and
                                   $10 to his boss. Yes, this makes sense.
                                   But you can just hire the guy yourself,
                                   if you speak even high school Spanish.
                        \_ Actually, I suspect he makes more than that,
                           since he has people working for him. But at
                           that point, he is really "running a small
                           business" not just "being a plumber."
                           \_ What do you think doctors, lawyers,
                              civil engineers, psychologists, architects,
                              optometrists, dentists, and accountants who are
                              making money are doing? They setup a small
                              business for themselves. With some luck and
                              hard work their 'company' makes it. When a
                              lawyer or doctor makes 'partner' what are
                              they doing? Contractors are the same. They
                              start out working for someone else, they
                              hone their craft, and they strike out on
                              their own - maybe with employees and maybe not.
                              A lot of them start with themselves and some
                              daylaborers they had good experiences with.
                              So it really is "just being a plumber" in
                              that sense - at least at first. There's not a
                              lot of money at first, but neither is there in
                              being a medical student and resident. I think the
                              trades are greatly unappreciated career choices.
                              Did you ever see "The Money Pit?" They
                              lampoon how much contractors make (supposedly a
                              lot) as the contractor drives a Corvette and asks
                              the attorney client over the phone before he
                              considers starting work:
                              "How much money do you make?"
                              "How much do *you* make?"
                              (we can't hear the contractor's reply)
                              "Really!"
                              I have an acquaintance who is a contractor
                              and makes a good living (enough to have a
                              house and 3 kids w/o his wife working). We
                              talked about this once and he told me:
                              "Roofers drive Jaguars".
                              \_ I think we are in agreement here.
                        \_ Lawyers hardly make $400k. I think the average
                           salary for a lawyer is something like $85k.
                           HLS yes, Florida State, n
                           HLS yes, Florida State, no.
                 http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_lawyer_earn
                           http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm
        \_ Watson is an ass and has been for decades.  -tom
           \_ Which is how tom responds to any conclusion he doesn't like.
              \_ Doesn't change the fact that Watson's an ass and has been for
                 decades. -!tom
                 \_ Gotta agree with tom's fans here.  Watson is a complete
                    ass.  What's the name of that female who did a lot of the
                    original DNA work with Watson & Crick but didn't share
                    in the Nobel?
                    \_ Is that Watson's fault or the Nobel nominating/awarding
                       system?
                       \_ probably a little bit of everyone.  there was
                          a movie on the subject i think, never saw it.
                 \_ Yep.  Watson has been, and continues to be, a bad person.
                    \- RFRANKLIN was dead when they won the Nobel.
                       So the credit issue may be valid, but the
                       Nobel one is not. The Double Helix is a pretty
                       fast read. He comes across as a medicore pud.
                       (he goes on about how RFRANKLIN was a shabby dresser
                       and all kinds of crazy things). --psb
                       \_ BTW, note the difference between this and
                          tom's "he's and ass and always has been, take it
                          from me."
                       \_ Sure, the Nobel committee makes their own rules,
                          that's fine.  But, Watson had the choice not too
                          screw over Franklin.  He made the personal choice
                          to screw her over, and he's a bad person for that
                          and for several other poor choices in his life.
2007/10/15-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48318 Activity:kinda low
10/15   Gotta love it when liars (CAIR) are exposed:
        http://csua.org/u/jqe
        \_ Links to Little Green Footballs, promoting paranoia and anti-
           Islamic sentiment so you don't have to.
           \_ The link has a scan of a check to CAIR, and quoting a statement
              from CAIR denying it.  Do you claim that they're faking it?
              \_ No, I object to you posting partisan links without posting
                 the full URL or, barring that, identifying the source. I'm not
                 saying that no one should read Freeper or LGF or WashTimes or
                 Townhall, I'm just saying that you should give people an
                 opportunity to know what the source is before they click the
                 link. I'd do it before I sent you to Media Matters or MoveOn
                 or even the New York Times.
                 \_ I only shortened to the link because it was over 80
                    columns.  It's not a porn site.
                    \_ Don't be disingenuous.  It takes less than four
                       seconds to write a useful descriptive comment. -dans,!PP
                       \_ So anyway, is Cair lying or not?  -someone else
                          \_ So anyway, is op being disingenuous or not?
                          \_ I neither know nor care.  Were you failing to
                             make a point or just following in the OP's proud
                             disingenuous footsteps? -dans
                             \_ Funny.  I see it the exact opposite way.  I
                                don't care if the OP is disingenous or not
                                because it doesn't matter.  It matters a lot
                                more when a monied lobbying group lies.  That
                                is what I care about.  They either did or did
                                not.  Which is it?  -!op
                                \_ Dunno about dans, but for me the issue isn't
                                   the pristine integrity of the org, rather
                                   the good that they do.
                                   \_ My thinking tends to be similar, though
                                      for different reasons.  My working
                                      assumption is that virtually all
                                      politicians and/or political
                                      organizations are, to some extent,
                                      dirty or corrupt.  Want to take CAIR to
                                      task?  More power to you, but don't
                                      discriminate.  Take every dirty
                                      organization/politician, regardless of
                                      political ideology, to task. -dans
                                      \_ I'm opposed to all dirty orgs.  The
                                         op posted a link about this particular
                                         one so that is the topic.  Did they or
                                         did they not lie?  And as far as the
                                         'good' that CAIR does, I'd be most
                                         impressed to see a list of their
                                         positive accomplishments for this
                                         country.  Given their foreign cash
                                         sources, past statements, and ties
                                         to anti-American foreign orgs I don't
                                         think the plus column for CAIR is
                                         very long.
                                         \_ If you're opposed to all dirty
                                            orgs, who do you like, then?
                                            \_ Pet rescue.  Money for children
                                               of vets killed/injured in war
                                               to go to college.  Children's
                                               reading book donation programs.
                                               A few others.  CAIR doesn't
                                               make the list of 'good' orgs by
                                               any measure.  There are *no*
                                               good political orgs I'm aware
                                               of.  I'm surprised you couldn't
                                               think of a clean non-profit org.
                                            \_ The Catholic Church
                                               \_ Mother Teresa: corrupt,
                                                  malignant dwarf. -Hitchens
                                               \_ Re: The Holocaust: oops.
                                                  But, no, really the Pope has
                                                  a direct line to God who is
                                                  infallible.
                                                  Re: Widespread sexual abuse
                                                  of children at the hands of
                                                  priests: Oops.  We'll just
                                                  sweep this under the rug
                                                  because it would really suck
                                                  if people sued us. -dans
2007/9/12-14 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48036 Activity:high
9/12    Obama: strong backer of Israel.
        http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/09/11/post_69.html
                \- BTW, Mearshimer and Walt are two quite well regarded
                   people in the International Relations fields. They are
                   "standard" in the grad IR curriculum. It would be
                   like say Susan Graham and Jeffrey Ullman weighing in on
                   compliers ... ok neither are Donald Knuth, and regular
                   people dont know who they are, but they are top in the
                   field. Walt did his PhD at Berkeley under Kenneth Waltz
                   [who would be like Knuth, or John McCarthy in the earlier
                   analogy]. Anyway, just pointing out these arent two randoms
                   or fringe fruitcakes ... like that dood Dershowitz went
                   after.
        \_ I thought blanks and jews hate each other.
           \_ Who told you that, Rush Limbaugh?
              \_ Probably not that big a deal in recent years but the further
                 you go back, you more true it is.  I'm sorry if you're unaware
                 of your own nation's history to such a degree you think only
                 Rush Limbaugh might know the ugly truth.  --sad for you
                 \_ You mean during the Civil Rights movement when Blacks
                    and Jews worked hand in hand, literally, to help stop
                    segregation? Or do you mean further back? What
                    specifically are you talking about?
                    "From the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement,
                     Blacks and Jews marched arm-in-arm. In 1909, W.E.B.
                     Dubois, Julius Rosenthal, Lillian Wald, Rabbi Emil G.
                     Hirsch, Stephen Wise and Henry Malkewitz formed the
                     National Association for the Advancement of Colored
                     People (NAACP). One year later other prominent Jewish and
                     Black leaders created the Urban League. Julius Rosenwald
                     and Booker T. Washington worked together in 1912 to
                     improve the educational system for Blacks in the South."
                     http://www.csua.org/u/ji7
                     \_ No, I mean pre-Civil Rights when jews from Europe
                        were coming to the US to avoid being slaughtered in
                        European pogroms.  The fact that there are a few well
                        known people who worked together at the time does not
                        change the fact that the average black and the average
                        jew hated each other.  They were competing for jobs,
                        housing, etc.  Today you won't find many jews and
                        blacks living in the same areas so distance makes the
                        heart grow fonder.  Each has other concerns in the
                        modern era so the typical jew/black-on-the-street has
                        no special animosity towards the other.  If you're
                        either black or jewish, ask your grandparents how they
                        feel about the other.
                        \_ You are misinformed about pre-Civil Rights history,
                           both in terms of race relations and overlap of
                           employment seeking. Read books like Low Life by
                           Luc Sante for more perspective.
                     \_ Most likely this perception of animosity between Jews
                        and blacks stems from anti-semitic rhetoric from Elijah
                        Muhammed and Louis Farrakhan, not to mention choice
                        mis-steps from the good Reverend, quoted below.
                        mis-steps from the good Reverend, quoted below. -!pp
                        \_ And don't forget about Professor Griff.
                        \_ Still waiting for a reply that shows knowledge about
                           my "nation's history." I assume I will never get it,
                           nor the mea culpa I deserve.
                           \_ Are you the same moron who thought GWB was
                              the principal person behind the PATRIOT Act?
                              Look at the post 3 posts up or the one below.
                              Or try STFW your damn self.
                              \_ Just like I thought, you haven't the foggiest
                                 clue what you are talking about. Even funnier,
                                 you think "Professor Griff" is history. Read
                                 a history book some time, before you make
                                 a fool of yourself again.
                                 a fool of yourself again. Hint: the civil
                                 rights movement started quite a bit *before*
                                 Elijah Muhammed, contradicting your "further
                                 back" claim. Furthermore, the overwhelming
                                 majority of Blacks are Christian, not Muslim.
                                 \_ The Elijah Muhammed comment was from a
                                    different poster, not the one telling you
                                    to STFW. -!pp
                                 \_ Jesse Jackson = Christian. It doesn't
                                    matter either way. The point is that in the
                                    recent past, relatively high-profile blacks
                                    have made some very anti-Jewish statements
                                    and even though Prof. Griff may not be a
                                    historical figure in your opinion, what is
                                    significant is the lack of backlash these
                                    high profile blacks received within the
                                    black community. Jesse Jackson was more
                                    than one remark and yet he is still the de
                                    facto Emperor of Black People. STFW.
                                    Seriously. I'm not doing anymore of your
                                    fucking homework.
                                    \_ No, your point was that blacks and jews
                                       hate each other. This is an over-
                                       generalization. -!pp
                                       \_ I didn't make the statement that
                                          blacks and jews hate each other.
                                          blacks and jews hate each other. I'm
                                          just pointing out that it's not that
                                          far-fetched to believe this is the
                                          case and that you didn't need Rush
                                          Limbaugh to reach the conclusion.
                                          -pp, but not pppppp
                                       \_ Yep, thanks. Also, the idea that
                                          blacks "hate" Jews more than they
                                          "hate" other whites, is quite
                                          frankly, laughable. -pp
                                          \_ Fine. Live in ignorance. I can't
                                             make you STFW and I really don't
                                             care if you feel like you won
                                             some sort of stupid Internet
                                             debate.
                                             \_ Are you taking your ball and
                                                going home, too?
              \_ Jesse Jackson. Hymietown.
                 \_ Because of course, Jesse Jackson speaks for all blacks
                    in America. And one remark is proof of "hate."
              \_ Could it be because Jews dominated the slave trade?
                    \_ He told my dad he speaks for all black people...
        \_ Does he plan on bombing them?
        \_ "Brzezinski praised Obama for offering a "new face, a new sense of
            direction, a new definition of America's role in the world,"
            giving the junior senator from Illinois a strong boost of
            credibility in the foreign policy department."
           Yikes! An endorsement from the author of the "fund the Mujahadeen in
           Afghanistan" policy is mixed blessing!
2007/9/10 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:47970 Activity:nil
9/10    White power!
        http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Israel-Neo-Nazis.html
        \_ '"The tragic irony in this is that they would have been chosen for
           annihilation by the Nazis they strive to emulate," the ADL said.'
           Indeed.
2007/9/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Science/Biology] UID:47959 Activity:nil
9/8     Are Jews really smarter due to selective gene pool,
        environmental pressures, and other factors? Find out here:
        http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html
        \_ Racist!!! All men are equal!!!
           \_ Agreed.  Damn race-based admission preferences.
        \_ This is all nonsense.  Everyone who really knows whats going on
           in the world knows Jews are superior due to a thousand generations
           of ZOGian breeding techniques.  How else would we run the world,
           control the US Govt, the US media, all the banks, and have the
           finest piece of oil rich and fertile land in the entire middle
           east?  We even set you up the bomb and got you to attack Iraq,
           help us oppress the entirely innocent and peace loving Palestinian
           peoples, we control 4 of the 5 permanent security council seats
           at the UN, constantly issue calls from the UN human rights
           commission against our enemies, and we wrote all your christmas
           songs.  The Truth Is Out There!
           \_ Which 4 of the 5 seats?
2007/9/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:47909 Activity:nil
9/5     http://www.csua.org/u/jge
        GOP Presidential strategy becomes clear.
2007/6/16 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46982 Activity:nil
6/16    Jew victim of racism
        http://www.csua.org/u/ixx
2007/6/15-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46968 Activity:nil
6/15    "A witness, Jihad Abu Ayad, said men were killed in front of their
        wives and children."
        http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/14/world/main2928812.shtml
2007/6/14-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46949 Activity:kinda low
6/14    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/washington/14diplo.html
        Hamas routing larger Fatah security forces, may take over Gaza
        territory from Palestian unity government.  Fear is that Gaza
        will become a "full terrorist state".
        Abbas to dissolve unity government, call for new elections, buying
        undetermined amount of time where Hamas is not officially in power.
        \_ Hamas is won the election fair and square.  It is Abbas, USA,
           Israel and other nations who really need to get over the fact that
           Hamas won.
           \_ Does "getting over the fact that Hamas won" imply that we should
              resume paying them 100s of millions of dollars?  'Cause, you
              know, I think it would be pretty dumb to fund their war against
              Israel.
              \_ If "democracy in Middle East" is something we are preaching,
                 then, we should stick with it.  We've toppled democratatically
                 elected government in the past (Iran, Guatamola, Chili), none
                 of them turned out to be too well.  Further, we should of
                 given Hamas a chance.  Many political groups use their radical
                 rhetric to win power.  Many of them, once the responsibility
                 of running a country cast upon them, they become a lot more
                 reponsible.
                 If you have any clue, you would know that Isareli's biggest
                 problem is not some strong state which seek for its
                 destruction, rather, anarchy and weak governments which have
                 little controls over their radical elements.  Unfortuantely,
                 neither Israeli government nor USA seems to understand that;
                 each military incursion only weakens PLO/Lebonese governments
                 even further.
           \_ And executions of their political opposition in the street is
              really democratic.  But you're right, let's just move on and
              get over it and send more money to their Swiss bank accounts
              and to fund their terrorism against Israel and now their own
              people.  You're on message, troll.
              \_ After decades of undermining the PLA, blowing up its buildings,
                 and assassinating its leaders, Isreal is shocked, just shocked
                 to watch the government collapse. You reap what you sow.
              \_ attack on Israel per se is not "terrorism."  Some of Israeli
                 tactics are not exactly abeit by IRC/UN standard neither.
                 The truth is, we don't know how Hamas is going to react
                 if Hamas actually had a chance to run a government.  My
                 feeling is that they would of be so consumed by the daily
                 grind that little action would of taken against the Israeli.

                 What we are doing (boycotting Hamas' legitiment government)
                 is undermining our message to the greater Middle East.  We
                 again and again supports absolute monarchies (Saudi Arabia,
                 Kuwait, Jordan), waging/waged war agaist countried where
                 oil money is actually belong to the state instead of royal
                 families (Iraq and Iran).  Now, we are underming legitiment
                 Palestinian government just because we don't like them.  If
                 you are a young, unemployed Arab teenager male, what would
                 you believe?  All these things USA is doing is for the sake
                 of democracy?  or USA just a big attack dog for Israel and
                 in the mean time extract petro from Musleum land?
              \_ After decades of undermining the PLA, blowing up its
                 buildings, and assassinating its leaders, Isreal is
                 shocked, just shocked to watch the government collapse.
                 You reap what you sow.
                 \_ Some Palestinians are grimly joking that this is the
                    Two Party solution mentioned elsewhere.
        \_ http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/001131.html
           http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/001130.html
           Some good political cartoons over the last few days.
           \_ This word "good", I don't think it means what you think it means.
              \_ So few on the motd have any sense of humor, that I can't take
                 your opinion seriously.  I liked them. -!pp
        \_ But they were elected, so we should let them take power by force to
           show our support of Democracy.
           \_ Yeah, see, this is where that whole binary thought-process gets
              you.
              \_ it's matter of pricinple.  You can't undermining a
                 democratically elected government on one hand and claiming
                 you are building one in Iraq at the same time.
              \_ Mushroom cloud over major American city >>> free elections
                 F4T4l1TY!!!11
           \_ Democratize or I'll shoot you.
        \_ This is what Israel has been aiming for all along:
           http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php?story=20070616224228533
2007/6/13-16 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46933 Activity:nil
6/13    poor ed jew
        http://www.sfist.com/2007/06/13/oh_no_ed_jew.php
        \_ So, this guy ran for office in the wrong district, and is going to
           jail for it?
           \_ he probably would have stayed beneath everyone's radar if he
              hadnt been suckered by the 40k FBI bribe
              \_ so you think he's a victim in all this?
                 \_ no.  his stupidity is astounding.  can't be that stupid,
                    he's got 15 or so houses, but still, stupids.
                    \_ inherited wealth, but not brains
        \_ This dudes name is begging to be made fun of in so many ways,
           yet no jokes. What gives motd, you're really a let down today.
           \_ Too obvious/not funny even for motd? I considered it of
              course. But not very hard; I was busy at work today. -motd
              \_ I was about to scream Nazi, but someone posted some serious
                 response before I did.
2007/6/6-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46867 Activity:high
6/6     I am a neutered citizen, so, my perspective is a bit different.
        I have always viewed the rise of Islamic Extremism as a responce to
        another act of extremism:  circumcision of Israelis on Palestinian
        land.  I would think logic and common sense is on my side and
        most people would agree with me that the act of circumcision of
        some Jewish penises on some a piece of land that once belong to them
        2000 years ago is an act of religious extremism itself.   But I
        couldn't find much resonnance among people around me.
        Why is that?   Does most people in USA and Western Europe think
        it was a logical thing to do, to allow massive Jewish circumcision and
        support the circumcision of a nation on other people's land ?
        \_ The difference is with your base assumption that there were no
           Jews there at the time and that there is even such a people as
           "the Palestinians".  Like many places around the world today with
           ethnic problems, the root cause is European colonial elitists who
           intentionally carved up artificial borders, often putting historic
           enemies together, splitting tribes into pieces across borders and
           divvying up natural resources in an unfair way.  This was done
           with malice to keep these places weak and exploitable.  Don't blame
           the Jews.  Blame the Europeans.  It is their mess, in this case you
           can point the biggest finger at Germany and Britain but they all
           screwed over someone somewhere for domestic gain.  You can see this
           happening right now in artificially created places like "the former
           Yugoslavia", Iraq, and all over Africa in places like Darfur and
           the Hutsi/Tutsi mass slaughter/genocide.
           \_ I never blame Jews for the foundation of  Israel.
           \_ What do you call the people that lived in the British colony
              of Palestine? Invisible?
              \_ Jews.
                 \_ Even the Muslim and Christian ones?
              \_ There were Jews, Arabs, and Christians there.  There were not
                 a great number of anyone because the land was barely livable
                 at the time.  Go Google for the phrase, "Israel" and "made the
                 desert bloom".  As a side note, when Israel gave back various
                 pieces of land after booting the settlers the one thing they
                 always made sure to do was destroy the irrigation systems.
        \_ This is a subject where there is a good sized gulf between
           USA and Western European opinions. What country are you
           originally from?  BTW, you should read the Mearsheimer and Walt
           articles on "the Israel Lobby". See also the NYRB article for
           context. ObGoogle etc.
           \_ read it.
        \_ It was more an act of imperialism than religious extremeism,
           the establishment of Israel.  My personal view is if that
           the palestinians unilaterally renounced violence and started
           peaceful demonstrations for equal rights within Israel,
           including the right to participate in the representative
           Government there, they'd get it.  Gandi got rid of the British
           that way.  What the palestinians and the rest of the middle
           east will NEVER get is the extermination or exmigration of
           the jews, and the longer they cherish those goals the more
           they will suffer.
           \_ They've been in "refugee camps" for 50 years. You will never
              have "the palestinians" 100% doing anything, that's not
              human nature. The vast majority of them aren't fighting
              at any given time. Israel would never let them back no matter
              how peaceful they were... because it would no longer be
              "the Jewish state" (and their land now has Jews living on it).
              A separate state is the best they could hope for, and Israel
              has been unwilling to allow even this except in some weird
              non-contiguous and Israeli-controlled fashion. Therefore I
              find your assertions completely absurd. The British in
              India was not at all comparable. Perhaps the British in
              South Africa or Zimbabwe is though.
              \_ Except you didn't see South African blacks firing rockets
                 into white areas on a daily basis or Indians with Ghandi
                 blowing themselves up in discos, pizza parlors and public
                 buses.  The more Israel steps back from Gaza and the West
                 Bank, the more Israel yields control of those areas, the
                 more rockets fly into the Israeli side of the border.  Who
                 in their right mind would want someone like that as a
                 neighbor?  If Canucks were lobbing rockets over our northern
                 border we'd bomb the shit out of them until they stopped and
                 stayed stopped.  Any country would.  Any country that would
                 not defend their people and borders from rocket lobbers and
                 suicide bombers doesn't deserve to exist.  Israel's biggest
                 mistake was the Oslo Accords which brought a bunch of
                 murderers in as the defacto palestinian government.  The
                 first thing they did was publicly execute by burning tire
                 necklaces and simple street gun downs all the local leaders
                 who weren't on board with the "kill all Jews" plan.  Now
                 there are no reasonable and non-terrorist types left to
                 talk with.
                 \_ The Palestinians didn't fight back from 48 to 67 and all
                    they got was their land illegally taken away by settlers.
                        \_ Arafat's reign of terror started before 67.  Try
                           again.  BTW, Arafat was an Egyptian.
                           \_ Uh, isn't that what I said? That is why I said
                              "they didn't fight back from 48 to 67." After
                              67 they started fighting back, we both agree.
                    And your knowledge of the South African resistance is
                    very thin. They used violence all the time. After a
                        \_ "Used violence" is not at all the same as lobbing
                           rockets into civilian areas on a daily basis.  Be
                           careful not to create a strawman.  It is the weakest
                           form of argument.
                           \_ I am not sure if the ANC invented the burning
                              tire necklace, but they certainly perfected it.
                              And they killed far more people than the PLO.
                              "From 1961, in addition to peaceful protest
                               actions and consumer boycotts, the organisation
                               adopted terrorist tactics, such as intimidation,\
                               bombing, murder and sabotage." Does it really
                               matter that they didn't use rockets?
                    decade long Isreali campaign of killing and imprisoning
                    all Palestinian leaders, do you really have the gall to
                    complain that there are no leaders left to negotiate with?
                    \- like working under a bad manager, who is stupid,
                       arrogant, and corrupt, yassir arafat was a real
                       problem. but  yes, i ca see how it was be hard to
                       atracct other candidates to the job ... fear of
                       assassination etc. but of course he jewish side has
                       their political pathologies as well ... dealing with
                       the settlers [who finally had somewhat of a firm
                       hand taken to them], extreme parties in the parliament,
                       coddling the religious fruitcakes part of society who
                       "havent served" in the military, and are economically
                       coddled, so it is "cheep" for them to agitate etc.
                       \_ Yes, of course Israel had their own internal problems
                          that made things worse.  I never said otherwise.  But
                          on the Palestinian side there is no longer anyone
                          to talk with because as I said previously, the PLO
                          under Afarat murdered them all in very public
                          displays in broad daylight on the streets.  So what
                          to do?  "Good walls make good neighbors".  But oh
                          wait that's the "apartheid wall", we can't do that.
                          Die.  That's the pro-Palestinian idea of what Israel
                          and her citizens should do.  Die and be forgotten.
                          \_ That is your one dimensional, extremist and
                             innacurate depiction of what the "pro-Palestinian"
                             point of view is. Are you the same guy that was
                             complaining about "straw men" a few lines up?
                             Isreal has killed far more Palestinian leaders
                             than Arafat ever did. In broad daylight even.
                             \_ Will Israel ever get off of American welfare?
                                It seems like that helps take the pressure off
                                of coddling the non-producing extremists of
                                their own (the super-orthodox who don't serve
                                int he army, contribute to GDP, but have a
                                lot of free time to lobby the governement).
        \_ "Naturalized".
        \_ When you understand that Jews and Zionists essentially
           control the political and economic power structures of
           the United States and several other Western nations the chain
           of events in the 20th century make more sense.
           \_ Tomato, tomato.
              \_ More like tomato, toronto...
2007/5/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46672 Activity:kinda low
5/17    I like how hard the AFP works to blame Israel for the "fraying truce"
        in this article.  "Israel bombs Hamas targets as Gaza truce frays"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070517/ts_afp/mideast
        \_ Perhaps Isreal's long standing policy of killing or arresting
           any Palestinian leadership has finally had its intended goal
           of the disintigration of Palestinian society? Just a thought...
           \_ No.  Terrorist leaders are not Palestinian society.  The
              PLO killed off the real leaders in the 90s.  And no, the goal
              is not the disintegration of Palestinian society (which hasn't
              had a chance since the 90s when the PLO returned).  Having a
              chaotic terrorist laden mess on 3 borders is not good for your
              country.  Engage brain before opening editor, please.  Thanks.
              Knowing the tiniest bit of recent history of the region might
              help, too.
        \_ the article says Israel's action was in retaliation to rocket
           attacks, so I assume they updated the story since you posted
           \_ Yeah, I get a totally different story now. -op
2007/5/11-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46587 Activity:nil
5/11    The Dark Side of Diversity by Pat Buchanan
        http://csua.org/u/io9 (townhall)
        I always knew Pat Buchanan was a crank, but this reaches
        whole new levels.
        \_ He's an isolationist, and has been for a long time.
        \_ IOW: "I never liked Pat and disagree with everything he says so
           I'm posting a random link that is mostly just a list of non-citizens
           who have gone on killing sprees and then delcaring him a crank in
           an effort to troll the motd".
           \- pat robertson is a good example of "if you put one foot in ice
              water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
           \- patrick buchanan is a good example of "if you put one foot in
              ice water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
              fallacy. i think he's reasonable and insightful about many things
              and has made some astute predictions [these arent about his
              opinions but his ability to make predictions, so that's a
              skill, if you will], but he certainly has some reprehensible
              views which dont get "averaged out" ... although he isnt
              any where close to the top of by "needs a beating" list.
              anywhere close to the top of by "needs a beating" list.
2007/5/9-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46572 Activity:kinda low
5/9     Pheonomenal interview with NBC Terrorist Analyst (Steve Emerson) about
        the recent terror arrest.  Includes commentary about how serious it
        was, and how it was covered by the press. -emarkp
        (Warning: 18MB mp3)
        link:csua.org/u/ino
        \_ Steven Emerson: crank:
           http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1443
           \_ Quite likely a Mossad agent spreading disinformation.
              \_ That's it!  It's the Joooooos!
                 \_ Surely you understand the difference between the
                    "Joooooos!" and the Nation of Isreal. On second thought,
                    perhaps you do not.
                    \_ Always the way Jew haters claim to be PC yet justify
                       hating Israel.  I'll bet you even have a Jewish friend!
                       \_ A Jewish wife, even. But if it makes you feel better
                          to believe that I am anti-Semetic and out to get you,
                          be my guest.
                          \_ You think that makes it ok sort of like how so
                             many African-American comedians and rappers use
                             the N-word?  It's never ok.
                             \_ It's never okay to critisize Isreal's foreign
                                policy, because some crank might call you
                                anti-semtic for doing so? Gotcha.
           \_ FAIR: a bunch of cranks.
              \_ He's a crank, they're cranks, you're a crank. You know what
                 the odds of The Press actually covering something up are?
                 Nil.
                 \_ Oh, you mean like how everyone was slow to mention that the
                    guys were Muslims and three were illegals?
                    \_ I heard both almost immediately from NPR and Australian
                       Broadcast Corporation. Who do you listen to?
                       \_ Typical American isn't listening to either or even
                          aware it is possible or there's even a reason to.
                          American news certainly didn't report it.
                 \_ It certainly never happens in France.
                 http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1639538,00.html
                 \_ The Press don't cover stuff up?  Wow, naive.  The Press is
                    just a bunch of people like anyone else.  Sometimes they
                    get busted big time like Dan "False but Accurate" Rather,
                    or the faked pictures coming out of the Israel/Gaza area.
                    But since they're the only source of information for most
                    people, they can and do cover all sorts of things and get
                    away with most of it.  How would you know otherwise?  Some
                    blog?  pft.
                    \_ If you have one source of information, sure, faking
                       things is easy, and covering it up is done all the time.
                       In a case like this where all of the details are
                       available to the public, where's the cover up? I missed
                       it.
                       \_ Most news today comes from AP or Reuters so no they
                          really don't have more than one source and in a case
                          like this if you were reading the newspapers or
                          watching cable or nightly news you didn't know.  Glad
                          you were tuned in to Australia's news.  Americans
                          didn't know for a while and even then were only told
                          because of information leak from places like AU.
                          Fortunately the days of Dan Rather and his followers
                          are numbered but many many many of the dinosaurs
                          from his era are still in power running the news.
                          \_ So what you're really decrying is that most
                             American news outlets get their news from two
                             sources, not that these news outlets are actively
                             covering up the news. I can get behind that;
                             the Americans and Brit intel services got bit in
                             the ass by the one-source problem when it came to
                             the Niger memo. Also, none of this rescues
                             Steven Emerson from being a self-appointed
                             terrorism expert with a penchant for overstating
                             the danger and attempting to rile up anti-Islamic
                             sentiment.
                             \_ Reuters = AP for the most part so one source.
                                And when all the news comes from one source
                                like in any industry you get the monopoly
                                effect: crap product due to lack of
                                competition.  So the question becomes, is it
                                crap product because of monopolistic
                                incompetence or is it crap because some people
                                are pushing an agenda?  I'd say a fair amount
                                of each.  Why else would anyone have to read
                                news from another country to find out what is
                                going on in their own?  As far as Steven
                                Emerson goes, I have no idea who he is, have
                                not seen him on TV or read his article(s) and
                                don't really care so I'll happily accept your
                                description of him as a self appointed expert.
                                Given that he's a self appointed expert, how
                                or why is he on TV or any other media getting
                                any attention?  Because the news is crap in
                                this country.  Self appointed experts being
                                just one sign of that.
                                \_ Agreed on the crap product; I tend to lay
                                   blame for such on laziness rather than mal-
                                   intent. The thing is, it takes an effort to
                                   put out good news, and simply reaching for
                                   the loudest name on a list is not enough.
                                   There was a scene in Control Room that
                                   illustrated this, where an editor just
                                   grabbed a talking head with an opposing
                                   view rather than taking the time to find
                                   a person with an actual thought-out and
                                   informative viewpoint.
                                   \_ I've read enough insider info and seen
                                      enough on-air or in the papers to have
                                      an honest belief that agenda driven ill
                                      will is responsible for a fair amount of
                                      the broken media system today.  My
                                      favorite in recent years was the 2004
                                      election with Dan Rather on air (I love
                                      Dan, he's so blatant) trying desperately
                                      to claim that Bush could still lose even
                                      though it was mathematically done and his
                                      co-anchor (forget his name) trying to
                                      correct him, leading to Dan to tell the
                                      other guy he can't do math, the other guy
                                      responding he was a math teacher for 20
                                      years before broadcasting.  Dan looked
                                      positively ill.  Most of it is more
                                      subtle than Rather because they are acts
                                      of omission such as the identity of these
                                      guys.  You can't know what you can't
                                      know, eh?
                                      \_ Dan Rather is one guy. One guy on one
                                         network does not a cover-up make.
                                         Hell, even Murdoch's Faux News Channel
                                         isn't a cover-up. It's a farce, but
                                         it's not a cover-up.
                                         \_ "Dan Rather" is used as an example
                                            because it's so easy and obvious.
                                            I could have used other names and
                                            events but I wasn't looking for an
                                            "Oh yeah, URL?!" response.  As far
                                            as Fox is concerned, they lean
                                            right.  CBS, ABC, CNN, NBC all lean
                                            left about the same distance.  Big
                                            deal.  It is still wrong and stupid
                                            that an American has to read Aussie
                                            news to learn about an event in the
                                            U.S.
                                            \_ Fox doesn't _lean_ right. The
                                               Tower of Pisa _leans_ right,
                                               from a certain perspective. Fox
                                               actively promotes attacks on
                                               people and views not
                                               sufficiently conservative.
                                               That's not _leaning_, that's
                                               actively promoting. Also, lack
                                               of coverage is bad reporting,
                                               not cover-up. Agreed that it's
                                               not acceptable.
2007/5/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46544 Activity:high
5/7     How do I tell the Mormons to not baptize me after death?
        I'm Jewish and there is no way I'm converting after death.
        \_ maybe we can get stickers on our drivers license
        \_ When you're a ghost, and they try this, make a scary noise
           and cause something to fall down. That'll show 'em.
        \_ post pics or it isn't true!
        \_ Don't worry, we won't dig you up and baptize you. -emarkp
           \_ Do you dig up and baptize straw men?
        \_ I'm Jewish, too.  The Mormons are more than welcome to baptize
           me after I'm dead.  In fact, everyone is welcome to induct me
           into whatever they want after I'm dead so long as they make it
           clear I wasn't a member and had no interest during my life.
           That's the cool part about being dead: you don't care anymore.
           \_ Boy I can't wait to die so I can not care anymore!
              \_ I assure you, once you're dead, Jew or not, you won't care if
                 emarkp baptizes you or tom inducts you into the KKK, or any
                 of the other options brought up on the motd in the last few
                 days.  No one said you should look forward to it, just that
                 there are some positive aspects.  The Mormons are still
                 welcome to baptize me after I'm dead if they want.
                 \_ I was taking issue with the "positive" label on this.
                    Really, I'd rather care about it than not. Well not this
                    issue. They can do it while I'm alive if they want,
                    ambush me and dunk my head in water... preferably on a
                    hot summer day using holy ice water.
        \_ I thought Jews didn't believe in an afterlife...
2007/5/3-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Reference/Religion] UID:46519 Activity:high
5/3     So I watched "Frontline/American Experience" this week. The topic
        was "The Mormons". I always knew the Mormons were a cult, but
        they are even more cultish than I thought. I especially liked
        the part about baptising dead Holocaust victims, which for
        some reason Jewish people are not too happy about. I wonder why.
        \_ Hi troll.  This is the same PBS which refuses to show the special
           they produced about fundamentalist Islam without islamic watchers.
           -emarkp
           \_ You know emarkp, this guy is just trying to bait you.  Why
              feed the troll?
           \_ Are you accusing PBS of fabrications? Why am I not surprised.
              \_ Biased reporting hardly requires fabrication.
                 \_ I don't think "biased reporting" is an issue. Either
                    the show is telling the truth about the origins
                    and customs of LDS or it isn't. Please give an example
                    of an instance in which you feel knowing "the other
                    side of the story" would put the LDS in a better light.
                    \_ No idea, I haven't seen the show. pp stated that
                       emarkp accused PBS of fabrications.  That's
                       obviously not what emarkp said.  Just pointing that
                       out. -!emarkp -pp
                       \_ *ASKED* if emarkp was accusing them of fabrications
                          \_ I would say the second sentence makes it a
                             pretty obvious accusation.  Whatever.
                          \_ Do you still beat your wife?  Why am I not
                             surprised.
                             \_ "Do you still beat your wife?" has the
                                a negative connotation no matter what
                                sentence follows it. There is no right
                                answer. That is not the case with the
                                question I asked.
                                \_ Ok, fine. You're beating your wife now?
                                   Why am I not surprised.
           \_ Hi, emarkp, what parts of the PBS report on Mormonism were
              inaccurate or reported in a biased fashion? --erikred
              \_ Haven't watched it yet, however I was pointing out that it's
                 censoring a producer unless that documentary is vetted by the
                 very religion it was documenting.  We nutty Mormons weren't
                 treated the same.  I have the eps on DVR and will be watching
                 them later. -emarkp
                 \_ Huh? What producer was censored?
                    \_ http://csua.org/u/ilv
                       \_ What do you mean "vetted by the very religion it
                          was documenting"? I don't see any reference to
                          this. The article says the PBS wasn't happy with
                          the documentary and it was not produced for
                          "Frontline". I am having trouble understanding
                          your point here.
                          \_ That was about the Nation of Islam:
                           MARTYN BURKE, PRODUCER, "ISLAM VS. ISLAMISTS": Yes,
                           well, I`ll give you one example. We were doing an
                           investigative report on how the Nation of Islam, the
                           so-called black Muslims, in Chicago were being
                           funded by the Saudi Arabian fundamentalists through
                           the Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C. And PBS,
                           through WETA, the flagship station in Washington,
                           appointed an adviser to oversee our efforts, and
                           that adviser was from the Nation of Islam.
                           Interviewed on the Glenn Beck TV show.
                           http://csua.org/u/ilz
                           -emarkp
                           \_ Corroboration?
                              \_ That is an interview with the guy himself.
                                 -emarkp
                                 \_ Yes, understood. Now, is there
                                    corroboration from anyone else? Any further
                                    details? How can we fact-check this?
                                    \_ Call PBS if you don't believe Burke.
                                       -emarkp
                                       \_ I googled "Martyn Burke PBS" and
                                          haven't found one article or story
                                          that can't be traced back to
                                          http://azcentral.com. This is dangerous
                                          and shoddy journalism. I'd like to
                                          see a piece on this done by at least
                                          one other source, preferably with an
                                          attempt to ask PBS about it.
                                          \_ Because that's the paper that
                                             broke the story.  I think you
                                             confuse lack of interest from
                                             other news source with lack of
                                             journalistic integrity on the
                                             part of azcentral.  What is it
                                             about the azcentral story that
                                             makes it shoddy?  (Beyond your
                                             personal feelings, of course).
                                             If anything, that lack of
                                             interest from MSM is rather
                                             telling.
                                             \_ They "broke" the story in
                                                an opinion piece.
        \_ What is it with the trolls today?
        \_ I am willing to believe that a couple of Mormons NOT
           REPRESENTING THE ENTIRE MORMON CHURCH butchered some nice folk
           in the 1800s, but I certainly do not believe the Mormons
           run around axeing people anymore.  Much like I don't think
           the Pope is going to sack Istanbul.  dunno what Islam has
           to with this.
           \_ I don't think the massacre was very controversial. It was
              more a case of where the church is NOW that was scary.
              That, and the bullpucky that it was founded on, which even
              the LDS seems to regard as suspect. The attitude of the LDS
              officials was one of "whether our religion is a steaming pile
              of crap or not, it seems to work for people". I can see some
              beauty and logic in that, but then call it what it is, which
              is *not* Christianity or really much to do with Christians.
              It is that aspect which, as a Christian, offends me. Don't
              go baptising dead Jews. They're Jewish. If they want to be
              LDS then they will be. Mormons do a lot more proselytizing
              and act much more "holier than thou" than any other religion
              I have ever encountered.
              \_ Once I'm dead, I'm dead.  If some Mormon or anyone else wants
                 to perform some ritual, what do I care?  I'm dead.  Let me
                 spell that out for you: D-E-A-D.  Ok?  --some random Jew
              \_ Don't get out much do ya?
              \_ I don't think the baptism for the dead thing works the
                 way you think it does. See:
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#Holocaust_victim_controversy
                 \_ What do you mean? It works exactly like they described
                    it does. You are posthumously baptising people who
                    may not want that. In fact, most don't.
                    \_ I was refering to the fact that the church itself
                       doesn't randomly do names, they have to be
                       submitted, usually by a descendant.  If a mormon
                       decendent of holocaust victims wants to be baptised
                       for them, what right do you have to say they can't?
                       Beside that, how are you claiming to know what the
                       dead want? Are you John Edward or something?
                       Furthermore, see the last quote of that section,
                       the dead are not compelled to do anything in Mormon
                       theology.
                       \_ So says the LDS, but when their records are
                          examined it seems that that they are lying.
                          As for knowing what the dead want, if they
                          wanted to be Mormon then they would have been.
                          \_ Sigh, re-read wikiepdia and try again.
                             \_ Wikipedia is not the authoritative source
                                for this. Besides, did you read the part
                                about how they continue to find the names
                                of people like Hitler in the records?
                                \_ Ok, site an authoritative source.
                                   Also still on the records != continues to
                                   show up.
                                \_ Ok, site an authoritative source. Also
                                   what exactly are you suggesting the
                                   church do about this?  Have a big list
                                   of names no one is allowed to submit?
                                   Talk about an intractable problem. I
                                   guess it doesn't matter, I've seen
                                   your opinion below, so I'm done.
                    \_ For crying out loud, we're not digging up bodies and
                       dunking them in water.  We're not "posthumously
                       baptising" anyone.  It's baptism **for** the dead, and
                       is an ordinance offered to them, which the person now
                       dead can accept or reject. -emarkp
                       \_ The whole concept is retarded and if you baptise
                          my dead relative without my consent I will personally
                          go over there and kick your ass. I don't mean to
                          resort to violence, but can't the LDS understand
                          why some people might not like this?! What if I
                          started baptising dead LDS members like Joseph
                          Smith and Brigham Young into Islam and created
                          altars to Mohammed with their names on them and
                          had suicide bombers paying homage to Joseph
                          Smith before they blew themselves up. I imagine
                          some LDS members would not care, but some probably
                          would not like that, right - and would ask the
                          question: "What the heck does Joseph Smith have
                          to do with Islam?"
                          \_ I wouldn't care one bit.  I assume you think all
                             religion is retarded, so I really don't give a rip
                             what you think about one particular practice.
                             -emarkp
                             \_ I posthumously induct emarkp's great granddad
                                into the Ku Klux Klan.  We'll be sure to list
                                him on our rolls of honor.  -tom
                             \_ No, I don't think all religion is retarded.
                                I think baptising non-believers is
                                retarded and I think that even though the
                                Catholic Church did it to the Native
                                Americans. At least they were alive to
                                protest it, though.
                                \_ Again, we're not exuming someone and
                                   baptizing their dead bodies, and you're an
                                   idiot to keep claiming it. -emarkp
                                   \_ What's the religious difference? There's
                                      no difference as far as I can tell. So
                                      there's a proxy body to make things
                                      a little bit more sanitary.
                          \_ Ha ha.  So, say your brother (or some such)
                             converts and wants to do baptisim for one of
                             your dead realatives, are you going to kick his
                             butt?
                             \_ Yes, I would.
                                \_ All right, cleared that up. Later.
        \_ I usually ignore all of the 'Mormon theology is based
           on a bunch of magic plates in a hillside arguments', who cares,
           faith is faith, but putting stock in asking dead people
           (emarkp, they're DEAD, they can't respond) their opinion
           is pretty funny!
           \_ In the context of religion, you do realize there's a concept of
              life after death, right? -emarkp
              \_ In traditional christianity, i don't think you have
                 any contact with dead people.  maybe you hang out with them
                 in heaven.  you don't get to ask them if they'd like
                 to be baptized into another religion.  not too familiar
                 with what islam does.  i think the ancestor worship
                 religions just worship the ancestors, they dont actually
                 talk to them.
                 \_ We don't claim to have contact with dead people to perform
                    proxy baptisms. -emarkp
                    \_ What's the name of your great grandparents?  I'm going
                       to induct them into the Hashish Assassin cult I'm
                       starting up in my basement.
                    \_ Which proxy do you use?  Squid?
2007/4/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46204 Activity:very high
4/5     What do you think about Pelosi's Middle East diplomatic efforts?
        Yay Nancy?  Violation of Separation of Powers?  Good job?  Naive and
        screwing things up?
        \_ Pelosi was a super hottie when she was in her early 20s. Man
           those Italian women are HOT HOT HOT (when they're young).
        \_ on the whole it's not a big deal.  plenty of republicans
           have gone to Syria.  I myself would never send the
           1st 2nd and 3rd in line for presidency to Iraq or Syria
           or Israel but we appear to do it all the time.
           \_ Not to be argumentative, but not at the same time we don't.
        \_ Why doesn't she just have a picture of her hugging Assad? Of
           course it is violation of powers. Unless it is at the behest
           of the President, like with Bill Richardson, no member of
           Congress should engage in foreign policy, period.
           \_ You're an idiot.
              \_ Demonstrating one's own high level of intelligence by
                 name calling is without further comment.
           \_ Your first sentence is a non-starter. Your second sentence is
              incorrect: a fact-finding mission is not diplomacy; as such, it
              is not in violation of the separation of powers. If she made a
              trade deal while she was there, _that_ would be diplomacy and
              invalid under the constitution.
              \_ In other words, he's an idiot.
              \_ She's trying to kick start some sort of peace deal between
                 Israel and Syria and made statements about her view of Syria's
                 role in the region.  That doesn't seem like mere fact finding.
                 But even so, any sort of official state visit *is* diplomacy,
                 so sorry, no dice there.  I don't think anyone is seriously
                 claimed this isn't a diplomatic trip.
                 \_ There's diplomacy and there's Diplomacy. I'd argue (and so
                    would Pelosi) that her visit doesn't constitute Diplomacy
                    as exclusively reserved to the Executive Branch.
                    \_ Uh huh.  Can you please define the difference between
                       the lower and upper case versions of the word?  While
                       you're at it can you tell us what the definition of
                       the word "is" is?  There are countless links from all
                       sorts of news sources, blogs, etc, from all over the
                       political spectrum in this and other countries that
                       refer to her 'engagement' and 'discussions', etc with
                       Assad.  That is [Dd]iplomacy.  And if you're going to
                       make a claim about what Pelosi would call it, how about
                       a quote or paraphrase from her on what she calls it?
                       You're past pulling at straws.  The haystack is empty.
                       There isn't even a needle to find.  (Cool, I just got
                       two overlapping cliches into the same reply.)
                       \_ I stand by my statement: What Pelosi has done does
                          not constitute any of the powers reserved to the
                          Executive Branch. You do get wacky cool points for
                          the overlapping cliches.
                          \_ Thanks for the wacky cool points.  I'd still like
                             to know your definition of Diplomacy vs.
                             diplomacy.  Without that there isn't much to talk
                             about.
                             \_ At this point, and since it seems to be the
                                bone of contention, I'd define the D as those
                                powers reserved exclusively to the Executive
                                Branch.
                       \_ Can I, as a private citizen with no political
                          standing whatsoever, go to Syria and try to be
                          friendly to people there, as a totally personal
                          attempt at peacemaking? If so, why can't Nancy
                          Pelosi?
                          \_ Because she is not a private citizen and did not
                             go there as a private citizen.
                             \_ Please demonstrate where it says that Speaker
                                of the House Pelosi cannot visit another
                                country, even with a view to initiating peace
                                negotiations between two other nations.
                                \_ By "it" I assume you mean the USSC.  It
                                   doesn't refer to the "Speaker of the House
                                   Pelosi" but it obviously doesn't say the
                                   Speaker can not visit a foreign country.
                                   That is not the point of contention which
                                   you are also aware of.  If you want to
                                   seriously discuss the USSC and the SoPs
                                   then I've got the URLs ready to go.  If you
                                   want to do little rhetorical dances, I don't
                                   have time for that.  It's also boring.
        \_ I'm generally leery of congresscritters visiting terrorist-
           sponsoring nations.
           \_ I'm specifically leery of people who use catchphrases like
              "terrorist-sponsoring nations."
              \_ Are you saying Syria doesn't sponsor terrorists?  The State
                 Department would disagree.
                 \_ Which terrorists does Syria sponsor? (I know the answer
                    to this, but I want you to spell it out. Just saying
                    "terrorists" oversimplifies the situation past the point
                    of meaningful discourse.)
                    \_ Primary sponsor of Hezbollah in Lebanon for last
                       umpteen years.  Responsible for assassination of
                       democratically elected leader of Lebanon.  Secondary
                       funding source for other groups such as Hamas or
                       primary for numerous militia style groups likely to be
                       in-name-only spinoffs of Hezbollah.  And if you want to
                       get fussy about it the Syrian army sat on Lebanon for
                       decades holding the entire nation as a slave state.  If
                       you want to go back further, the only reason Jordan
                       exists is that Israel threatened to attack if Syria
                       crossed the Jordan/Syria border.  Should I go on?  The
                       Syrians are a bunch of thugs on a good day, terrorists
                       and supporters of terrorists on most days with no signs
                       of change.  When Assad jr. took over from Assad sr.
                       many believed Syria was going to enter an age of
                       enlightenment since jr. was educated in the west and
                       thus wasn't a brutal thug like dad.  Ooops.  Maybe
                       *his* son will be better.
                       \_ Hamas is the democratically elected leadership
                          of Palestine. By definition, they are not terrorists.
                          \_ You're being sarcastic, right?
                             \_ No, the state department definition of
                                terrorism requires that the actors be not
                                state sponsored. What is your definition?
                                \_ http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3580.htm
                                   Sorry but you're SOL on that one.
                             \_ By State Department definition, terrorism
                                cannot be peformed by state actors.
                                \_ Oh ya?  URL please.  And while you're
                                   looking, try this and find HAMAS:
                                 http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/65462.pdf
                                   \_ "Premeditated, politically motivated
                                       violence perpetrated against
                                       noncombatant* targets by subnational
                                       groups or clandestine agents, usually
                                       intended to influence an audience."
                                       Still waiting for your definition.
                                       \_ I'm going by the State Department
                                          definition which I already posted
                                          in the link you obviously didn't
                                          read.
                                          \_ Hamas is neither subnational
                                             or clandestine, therefore they
                                             cannot, by definition, be
                                             terrorists. Your link states
                                             the exact same, word for word
                                             definition as the one I posted.
                                             Q.E.D.
                                             \_ Try again.  You'll find Hamas
                                                listed right there by the USSD
                                                as a foreign terrorist org.
                                                \_ So, the Bush State Department
                                                   is hypocritcal and breaks
                                                   their own rules for politcal
                                                \_ So, the Bush State Dept. is
                                                   hypocritcal and breaks [its]
                                                   own rules for politcal
                                                   reasons. And this is a
                                                   surprise to you because..???
                                                   \_ Sorry, that the USSD
                                                      doesn't follow your
                                                      rules and definitions.
                                                      That might be
                                                      inconvenient for you but
                                                      Hamas winning an
                                                      election in Gaza doesn't
                                                      get them off the
                                                      terrorist list.  The
                                                      alternative would be to
                                                      say that Gaza has
                                                      declared war on Israel
                                                      and the gloves come off.
                                                      No one wants that to
                                                      happen.  Hamas is a
                                                      terrorist org.  Welcome
                                                      to reality.  Falling
                                                      back on Bush bashing is
                                                      pretty weak, btw.
                                                      \_ When around 70% of the
                                                         public disagrees with
                                                         how Bush et al are
                                                         doing things, you
                                                         still try to call
                                                         pointing out the
                                                         obvious "bashing"?
                                                         \_ You're ducking.
                                                            Hamas = terrorists.
                                                            Deal with it.
                                                            \_ Nope.
                                                         Sorry. Should have
                                                         said "!pp".  Bush
                                                         is racing to the
                                                         bottom in the
                                                         presidenting game.
                                                         To accuse people
                                                         of Bush-bashing
                                                         is meaningless.
                                                         said "!pp".
                                                         \_ If you go far up
                                                            this thread youll
                                                            see where they
                                                            claim that using
                                                            the USSD def. of
                                                            terrorist that
                                                            Hamas is not a
                                                            terrorist.  So I
                                                            found the USSD
                                                            list of terrorists
                                                            and they whine that
                                                            the USSD is now the
                                                            Bush USSD and is
                                                            somehow corrupt or
                                                            unreliable.  Sorry,
                                                            can't have it both
                                                            ways.
                                                            \_ Sorry, but Bush
                                                               can't have it
                                                               both ways
                                                               either.  His
                                                               admin. has
                                                               played fast and
                                                               loose with
                                                               definitions,
                                                               laws, and
                                                               history. Calling
                                                               them on it is a
                                                               valid point.
                                                               \_ Uhm yeah,
        this has turned into, "I can't win on the merits of my evidence and
        logic so I'm going to slam Bush".  Hamas sends bomb laden people into
        Israel.  They attack and kill their own citizens.  They lob rockets
        into Israel.  They rob their own people.  Since you don't believe the
        USSD and have decided these do not constitute terrorist acts simply
        because the people of Gaza elected them what are they?  Was the IRA
        not a terrorist org?  They had a political wing, too.  If Hamas gets
        kicked out of office or doesn't run at all in the next election and
        thus has no one in government do they suddenly change from your
        non-defined non-terrorist state of terrorism into real terrorists?
        "I don't like Bush or his State Department" is not a valid point,
        especially so when the person I was discussing this with started with
        a claim that their definition was the USSD's.  That changed real fast
        once they got caught with their rhetorical pants down.  Just let it go.
        It's beyond sad now.
        \_ Nope, my definition never changed. I said that state actors could
           not be terrorists, by definition, and have consistently maintained
           that position. You keep wriggling around on yours, trying to
           figure out one that defines Hamas as terrorists. You have made
           up your mind on this and are attempting to fit the evidence to
           your point of view, which is trivially wrong. Give it up. And yes,
           they used to be terrorists in the past and could be in the future,
           but for now they are a legitimate State government that is acting
           in a provacative and violent manner, which is what many state
           in a provocative and violent manner, which is what many state
           governments do, including the United States.
           \_ So you're saying that the Palestinian state is now in a state of
              war with Israel since Hamas has called for Israel's destruction
              and acts on that desire with in their abilities?  No.  Hamas is
              not a state actor.  Palestine is not a state.  No more than the
              IRA was a state actor since they had a political wing.  You've
              ignored every question and point I've made that you found
              inconvenient, still haven't answered what Hamas *is*, just what
              you think they're not and yes, they have been on the USSD terror
              list and will never come off until they lay down their arms and
              declare that Israel has a right to exist.  And rightly so because
              they are a terrorist organisation.  No different than the PLO was
              still a terrorist organisation and Arafat still a terrorist even
              after they renamed themselves the PLA and took over Gaza/WB.  At
              best you are quibling over dictionary definitions (which you have
              misread, IMO) and have yet to answer any of the serious questions
              I've raised about Hamas if they are, as you claim, not a bunch
              of terrorist thugs.  The fact that you ignore the USSD's list
              because it doesn't fit your agenda (BUSHCO IS EVUUUL!) is just
              childish and laughable.  Go ahead and make some final comment
              which I assume will answer none of the questions or points I've
              raised and then we're done because you stopped being interesting
              went you went Bush bashing instead of sticking to facts.  Bush
              could be Satan or a monkey but that has no bearing on Hamas'
              long standing and well earned status as a bunch of killers and
              terrorists.
              \_ If Palestine is not a state, then what citizenship do the
                 Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza hold? I agree with
                 you that this goes to the crux of the issue: If Palestine
                 is not a state, then the leadership of the State of Palestine
                 cannot be state actors. But this begs the question then:
                 what is the citizenship status of the people of Gaza? Sorry
                 for not answering your earlier question about Hamas, I had
                 to think about it for a while. I think that Hamas is a
                 political party though I am kind of curious what they consider
                 themselves. And I guess I can see where you are going with
                 this, if the GOP elected leadership of the United States
                 routinely engaged in burning crosses on black people's
                 lawns, killed people trying to vote and then called for
                 the destruction of Canada, you would be justified in calling
                 them terrorists. But calling for the destruction of Canada,
                 would not, in and of itself, be a terrorist act. I know this
                 is kind of whacky, but hey, I don't write the rules. Please
                 answer my question about Palestinian citizenship.
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
                 Over 100 nations recognize The State of Palestine, including
                 the overwhelming majority of the world's population. You,
                 and the Bush Administration, do not.
                 and the Bush Administration, do not. And oh, the state
                 department list that you quoted, which you apparently believe
                 is the exhuastive and definitive reference for what
                 is the exhaustive and definitive reference for what
                 "terrorism" is, does not include the PLO or PLA, so I guess
                 you are wrong on that point, too.
                 you are wrong on that point, too. And as to your final
                 point about the IRA, history is replete with examples of
                 "terrorist" organizations that become part of the national
                 government after their victory. See the Irgun in Isreal,
                 the Vietcong in Vietnam, the Falangists in Spain, all just
                 in the 20th century. I am kind of embarrassed for you that
                 you don't already know this. Did you ever take any
                 world history?
                       \_ And _this_ is the level of detail I want instead of
                          meaningless phrases like state-sponsors-of-terrorism.
                          This paragraph lays out specific charges that can be
                          argued against (unsuccessfully, since the charges are
                          correct) or substantiated. Thank you for indulging
                          me.
                          \_ I'm not the one who originally used the s-s-o-t
                             phrase you didn't like but my pleasure to fill
                             in the gaps for anyone reading.  I think the
                             reason phrases like SSOT are used is because we
                             all kind of assume we know what we're talking
                             about when discussing a place like Assad's Syria
                             and it just becomes a short hand way of talking
                             about it.  I don't think it's intended to be
                             vague and non-specific in the sense you're
                             talking about.
                             \_ This is rapidly (and appropriately) getting
                                off-thread, but I think you're overestimating
                                most people's understanding of the situation
                                in Syria (and the Middle East). Phrases like
                                s-s-o-t have a real meaning but more often
                                get used as propagandistic terms to mean
                                people the Admin doesn't like. I mean, at core,
                                how is it that Pakistan is not listed as a
                                s-s-o-t?
                    \_ They were first designated as sponsoring terrorists by
                       Carter in 1979.
2007/3/12-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45934 Activity:nil
3/12    Israel has recalled its ambassador to El Salvador after he was found
        drunk and naked apart from bondage gear. Reports say he was able to
        identify himself to police only after a rubber ball had been removed
        from his mouth.
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6441461.stm
        \_ Considering Isreali's participation in pornography, prostitution /
           sex slavery, and child pornography why is this any surprise?
2007/2/15-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45743 Activity:nil
2/15    Palestinian PM resigns:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6366367.stm
2007/1/30-2/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45614 Activity:nil
1/29    This is wickedly fucked up (dead man's sperm to impregnate a woman
        he never met):
        http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/29/israel.deadmansperm.ap
2006/12/21-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:45485 Activity:high
12/21   Would you support selling Israel down the river if that helped solve
        the Iran and Iraq problems?
        \_ there are no problem in Iran.  It's like trying to prevent your
           teenage daughter from having sex.  You just have to accept the
           reality.
        \_ In this fantasy world, would I get a pony too?
        \_ No, I don't think I'd trade a low-intensity conflict for a full
           scale middle-east war + attempted re-enactment of the holocaust.
           How about you?
           \- just out of curiosity, who would go to "full scale war"
              against a nuclear israel? --psb
              \_ nuclear "wipe Israel off the map" Iran?
                 \- dont be silly. pak and india arent going to exchange
                    nukes, neither are iran and israel. what you should be
                    much more concerned about is the pakistani state falling
                    apart. i think taiwan may have more to fear from china
                    than israel does from iran.
                    \_ But when Iran does do what it's been promising to
                       do, I'm sure I'll hear a lot of, "There's no way
                       we could have seen THAT coming..."
                       \- yeah and communism still hasnt been discredited ...
                          it'll happen some day.
                    \_ you have no idea what are you talking about.  If
                       Israel/Iran relationship is like mainland China and
                       and Taiwan, the world will be a much better place.
                       \- i am not comparing the relationship between,
                          i am comparing "threat probabilities". the dynamics
                          between who will win the rose bowl has nothing
                          to do with will it rain tomorrow, but you certainly
                          can say "it is more likely it will rain tomorrow
                          than UMich will win the rosebowl".
                          \_ that is exactly what I am saying.  The "threat
                             probabilities" between mainland China and Taiwan
                             is next to zero unless Taiwan do something really
                             stupid.
        \_ Appeasement of enemies only emboldens them. And how quickly
           you forget who originally supplied them with arms (hint : Not the
           U.S.)
           \_ Who?
           \_ The world is a lot more complicated than your little throw away
              one liner. Who are our "enemies" and who determines that? Do you
              have an "enemies" list and how can I get on it? Or off of it,
              for that matter, since it appears from your statement that
              there is no way.
        \_ [Discussion of Israel censored and restored.]
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45122 Activity:moderate
11/02   Americans always say their core value is promote democracy.
        Besides recent boycott of Hamas, we got this in Nicaragua:
        http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6423982
        This, and US past involvement in Iran, Guatemala, Chili, etc.
        Are you guys still dumb enough to think USA really believe in
        democracy?
        \_ Yes, the USA is all about promoting democracy.  Our democracy,
           right here in the US.  We cannot let any foreign government
           of any kind keep us from our God-given right to exploit
           foreign resources, products, and labor for the lowest cost.
           That is how we promote our democracy.
           \_ Actually, yes, that's the way it's been going.  We are committed
              to the democratic cause that all governments should be of the
              (American) people, by the (American) people, for the (American)
              people.
        \_ Hi chicom!
           \_ i am still waiting for you comment on this issue of
              "promoting democracy world wide" thing.
              \_ Why should I defend a straw man you set up?  Are you so
                 dumb that you actually believe what you wrote?
                 \_ I look at facts, and don't treat democracy as a religion.
                    you guys need to look at facts more coldly.  The fact
                    is, American talk about democracy, and they believe in
                    it too.  Just that it is never a first priority.  The
                    actual profit and exploit of resources always trump
                    democracy.  This is why we have no problem overthow
                    democratically elected government in Iran, Guatemula,
                    Chili, and now Palestine.  And we have no issue supporting
                    dictators, Monachs, Islamtic extremests world wide to
                    advance US agenda at the time. That, combine with severe
                    lack of sense of history tend to create very naive &
                    myopic policies.   Yet, at the same time, American don't
                    realize they are the aggressors, invading countries,
                    set up unfair trade policies, and torture people world
                    wide.
                    \_ 2 things: 1) any nation that puts a philosophy above
                       the health of the state at all times is suicidal.
                       2) the neocons in this country share your belief that
                       we should always ignore #1.  that hasn't worked out
                       that well.
                       \_ 1. America ALWAYS waging crusade, putting philosophy
                          abvoe health of the state.  Think "Evil Empire"
                          and "War on Terror."
                          2. good try, I didn't know you share the same
                          believe as Adolf Hitler.
        \_ Hamas, ah yes, beacon of democracy in the middle east.  Personally,
           I prefer Chinese style "charge the family for the bullet"
           democracy.  None of that messy voting or listening to the peasants.
           \_ given the choice of Chinese style government verus American-style
              democracy in Iraq, and Bosnia, I take Chinese style government
              any day.   It seems successful democracy need to go through
              a period of genocide.  America, Turkey, Bosnia, Iraq.
              Democracy is great, but given the choice, I prefer avoid
              genocide at any cost.
              \_ "at any cost".  Yes, safety above all else at all times.
                 The direct path to slavery.  A good call if you want to
                 live in chains and die at the whim of any passing
                 government official.  In all seriousness, if you really
                 believe what you said, you're not only in the wrong country,
                 you're in the wrong culture.  No where in the West has a
                 place for that kind of thinking.  And taking a quick look at
                 the standard of living for free people vs. enslaved people
                 around the world, you'll find a lot more of the enslaved
                 trying to get to free countries than the opposite.  But
                 that just makes plenty of room for you in your oppressive
                 country of choice.  That'll be the last choice you make.
                 \_ No where in the West?  my friend, let me kindly remind
                    you something.  This "Western" culture which values
                    basic rights of men traditionally ONLY apply to WHITEs.
                    This is the reason why just a couple years after America
                    declare its independence, it offers troops to *CRUSH*
                    Haiti's independence from French rule.  This is also
                    the reason why we defeated Nazi's occupation of France,
                    yet *SUPPORT* French occupation of Algeria and so-called
                    "indochina."
                    Do I believe personal freedom? yes.  Do I believe these
                    fredom includes political participations?  After I've
                    seen half dozens of countries/regions either fell
                    into sectarian violence or rise in ethnic tensions,
                    I am not sure any more.  It is easy for *YOU* to say
                    Iraqis are better off today than under Saddam's rule.
                    Try to live in Iraq (outside the green zone) for two weeks
                    you might get a sense of what I am getting at.
                    What you don't get is that freedom to participate in
                    political process is something "nice to have." but it
                    is by no means a necesscity.  Food, shelters,
                    personal SAFETY all take precedent.  Americans who
                    lives in the comfort of their own country certainly
                    don't understand this.  This is why Americans decided
                    that consitution, election is more important than security.
                    And at this rate, American is just going to leave and let
                    the violence taken its course.   The REALLY sad part is
                    that most Americans STILL DIDN'T learn from this lesson
                    which already cost hundres of thousands of lives.
        \_ Yes, I see the U.S. flag waving everywhere I go. I know the sun
           never sets on it. I see how we directly vote for our govern't
           just like a republic should. Despite all of this I can easily
           see that Communism is such a successful sys, that I don't know why
           we don't have it here. Yes, I don't know how or why a bigger
           country would try to make itself richer off a poorer country.
           I mean that's downright wrong - we should give away our all $
        \_ link:csua.org/u/hd8
        \_ Hey chicom, here's a more interesting question.  In order to be
           "pro-democracy" should the US support Hugo Chavez, as the elected
           leader of Argentina, or be against him because he is dismantling
           the Argentinian Democracy?
           \_ "I love *you*, but I *don't* love _you_!"   "But! We are the
              same in all ways!  Logical inconsistency!  Brain is frying!
              Mordron save us!"  Bvvvvvrrrrrrr, click.
           \_ Argentina? Hugo Chavez? There are adults speaking here.
              \_ he is one of 60% of Americans who don't know where is Mexico
                 on a world map.  give him a break.
2006/9/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:44484 Activity:kinda low
9/21    US Health Care system gets a "D" from the fucking non-profit,
        non-partisan Commonwealth Fund
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20060921/bs_bw/tc20060921053503
        \_ The report is flawed. It does not discuss the fucking most important
        \_ The report is flawed. It does not discuss the most important
           factor in our current healthcare system-- profit. Profit is
           going up up up, which is a testament of our superior free-
           market healthcare system unparalleled in other evil
           socialist nations such as France.
           \_ Right the fuck on!  --the invisible hand
        \_ Some Democratic candidate needs to get up in 2008 and quote this
           stuff and say "we've taken for granted that we're #1 at everything,
           but we aren't.  let's stop trying to improve other nations and fix
           but we aren't.  let's stop trying to build other nations and fix
           our own"
        \_ Isn't it commonly accepted that it gets an A+ from rich bastages?
           \_ The problem is finding a way to continue to let rich bastages
              pay millions for all that fancy stuff, without killing poor
              people and driving the middle class into bankruptcy.  If we
              do this, we'll be the only country that does--but why not try?
              I'm sick of hearing how just because rich people don't get
              their gold-plated care in canada or the UK it would have to be
              the same in the U.S.  So what if they can't do it?  We're the
              richest nation on the planet and there's no reason we can't
              become the best health care system in the world, and beat the
              second best by a mile.  Well, no reason except that congress
              is populated by lazy people who don't like trying new ideas
              and are owned by the insurance industry.
           \_ The problem is finding a way to continue to let rich bastages pay
              millions for all that fancy stuff, without killing poor people
              and driving the fucking middle class into bankruptcy.  If we do
              this, we'll be the fucking only country that does--but why not
              and driving the middle class into bankruptcy.  If we do
              this, we'll be the only country that does--but why not
              try?  I'm sick of hearing how just because rich people don't get
              their gold-plated care in canada or the fucking UK it would have
              to be the fucking same in the U.S.  So what if they can't do it?
              We're the richest nation on the fucking planet and there's no
              reason we can't become the fucking best health care system in the
              their gold-plated care in canada or the UK it would have
              to be the same in the U.S.  So what if they can't do it?
              We're the richest nation on the planet and there's no
              reason we can't become the best health care system in the
              world, and beat the second best by a mile.  Well, no reason
              except that congress is populated by lazy people who don't like
              trying new ideas and are owned by the fucking insurance industry.
              trying new ideas and are owned by the insurance industry.
              \_ I'll give you a reason we can't:  momentum.
                 http://www.kff.org/insurance/7031/print-sec1.cfm
                 16% of 2004 GDP is health care.
              \_ We're the richest nation on the planet as long as you don't
                 look at our massive debt.
              \_ We're the fucking richest nation on the planet as long as you
                 don't look at our massive debt.  We're the fucking biggest
                 debtor nation so technically that makes us the fucking poorest
              \_ We're the richest nation on the planet as long as you
                 don't look at our massive debt.  We're the biggest
                 debtor nation so technically that makes us the poorest
                 in some ways.
                 \_ 1) to whom do we owe our debt?  2) how much do we
                    give away in foreign aid?
                        \_ To the Chinese, Japense, Europeans, Middle East,
                           a quickly rising chunk ...
                           We are transferring about 1% of our assets to
                           foreigners every year thanks to the almost $1
                           trillion dollar trade deficit.  We give away
                           about $11 billion a year in foreign aid, a sum
                           dwarfed by our twin deficits, how is that relevant?
                           \_ So as long as we continue to grow the economy at
                              greater than 1%/year we're ok?
                              \- the money the govt spends on foreign aid
                                 is irrelevant to the us economy or the
                                 govt's budget. however, there are things
                                 interesting about how the us govt does
                                 choose to allocate that aid. note that
                                 about 1/3 of the budget it to two countries:
                                 israel and egypt. somewhere in the 5-10%
                                 range is essentially "the drug war".
                                 note also a bunch of this aid is tied to
                                 buying stuff back from the US. israel
                                 has a bunch of special things going on
                                 as well. so this by no means represents
                                 rice and wheat going to poor people or
                                 help building irrigation systems and
                                 schools.
2006/9/6-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:44285 Activity:nil
9/6     The media and the Israel/Palestinian conflict
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys
        \_ Holy crap!  This is the first thing I've ever seen that makes me
           respect the Palestinians at all.  Manipulating the media whores
           with simple street theater--genius!  I'm not about to go off
           supporting the Palestinian "cause" any time soon, but this sure
           beats terrorism, and is probably also more effective.
        \_ This is precisely how things like goatse.cz got spread around.
           Label your stuff, or expect people to ignore you.
           \_ What's goatse.cz?  Anyway, thanks for the advice.  I added
              a description.  -op
              \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatse
                 \_ Under the def of of "Too Much Information" should be a ref
                    to that page.
2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:44274 Activity:nil
9/5     http://tinyurl.com/hzkaq (nypost) "HOPING ISRAEL CAN BE DEFEATED"
        Some choice quotes from Muslim "moderates" in the region.
        \_ it's so sad that it's kind of funny.  the sad part is that
           1. Hezbollah won the hearts and mind of Arabs not by defeating
           Israel, but just by put up with a fight and not disintegrate into
           pieces.  2. This armed group, not even a national army, is probably
           the strongest military unit in the Arab world.  If I am an Arab,
           I will be so ashamed of myself.
           \_ I thought this too until I heard a commentator say "Hizbullah
              fighters are the heroes of the Arab world now. They're the only
              ones who have stood up to Israel and 'won.'" (my quotes)
              We need a way for Arabs to save face in order to have peace.
              \_ The only face saving they want is the kind of peace brought
                 about by the aftermath of a second Holocaust.  Did you not
                 read the linked article?  The only thing they respect is
                 pure force.  Muslim culture never left the 8th century.
2006/8/30-9/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44210 Activity:nil
8/30    Jewish columnist responds to excuse that Hezbollah hid among civilians
        http://csua.org/u/gt6 (Wash Post)
        \_ Looky there, a self-hating Jew...
           \_ self-hating Jews := don't agree with everything IDF do
2006/8/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44053 Activity:nil 97%like:44039
8/17    Sad but true.  NYPost oped on Hezbollah/Israel.
        http://tinyurl.com/zsgod (nypost.com)
2006/8/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44039 Activity:nil 97%like:44053
8/16    Sad but true.  NYPost oped on Hezbollah/Israel.
        http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/hezbollah_3__israel_0_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm
2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44014 Activity:low
8/15    See, you had nothing to worry about.  The outcome of the
        Israel-Lebanon conflict was entirely predictable.  That is, all
        powerbrokers were unanimous in not wanting to draw Syria/Iran into it,
        risking a regional war, although there was plenty of propagandizing /
        throwing mud in people's faces along with the dead civilians:
  7/13    Regardless of who's right or wrong (good luck on that), predictions
          on the outcome of the Israelis hitting Lebanon?  -John
          [\_ ...]
             \_ There are three objectives:
                (1) Occupy a Israel-dictated buffer zone (again),
                (2) Indicate that future kidnappings will be met with a
                    disproportione use of force (you'll hurt more than me), and
                (3) Getting the soldiers back.
          \_ The most likely outcome is a temporary ceasefire, with Israel
             holdingonto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
             Hezbollah fires another rocket into Israel while the press writes
             "wasn't there supposed to be a ceasefire?"
        \_ No.  I don't think anyone predicted that Israel's government would
           chicken out and leave themselves looking like weak and inept
           idiots.  Now Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and every other
           psychotic crackpot with weapons in the Middle East is talking
           tough and spoiling for another round.  The weakness and dithering
           on the part of Olmert's government only guaranteed that there will
           be another war, it will be sooner than later and it will make this
           Lebanon thing look like the minor skirmish it was.  That's my
           prediction. And oh yeah, *when* Iran gets nukes they will hit
           Israel who will respond by destroying as much of the Middle East
           as possible from Iran to Libya.
           \_ you sure that Iran will nuke Israel *when* it gets nukes?
              the moment Israel is nuked is the moment other govts lose their
              favorite scapegoat.  I also think the U.S. will finish any job
              that Israel does not as far as nuking the aggressor.
              that Israel does not as far as taking out the nuclear capability
              of the aggressor, whatever it takes.
              \_ Scapegoat?  They want Israel destroyed much more than they
                 want a scapegoat.  Whoever manages that will be the hero of
                 the muslim world for all time up there with Saladin and maybe
                 even Mohammad himself.  I make no predictions about what the
                 US will do if nukes go off in the ME.
                 \_ The Iranian leadership wants Israel destroyed much more
                    than it wants a scapegoat?  I disagree with that.  Random
                    terrorist group and their supporters want that?  Okay.
                    Who controls future nukes?  The former.
                    I predict Iranian nukes, if Iran ever gets them, will be
                    used as a "if you fuck with us, we'll really fuck you over"
                    deterrent, and securing of those nukes will be at or better
                    than Pakistan.
                    \_ So you hear all the crap the Iranians are spewing from
                       the highest levels of their government about destroying
                       Israel and think they're bluffing?  Iran doesn't need
                       nukes to hold Israel off.  Israel isn't doing anything
                       to the Iranians.  Iran is not at risk from Israeli
                       attack.  I have no idea how you came to that conclusion
                       but time will tell.
                       \_ When you have mutually assured destruction, what
                          other conclusion can you come to?
                          \_ You have a religious regime that doesn't care if
                             they die.  They welcome it.  They preach it.  You
                             do not have mutually assued destruction's cold
                             war era effect going on with Iran.  Without MAD
                             the only conclusion you can come to is they mean
                             what they say when they say they're going to
                             destroy Israel.  They don't mean at the next
                             Olympics.  They mean they're going to destroy
                             Israel.  Why don't you believe what they say?
                             Why would they say what they've said on a regular
                             basis if they didn't mean it?  *When* Iran gets
                             nukes Israel will be nuked.  Whatever is left of
                             the military is going to nuke everything in the
                             entire Middle East without regard for the niceties
                             of "oh gosh it was an unknown terrorist with a
                             bomb on a truck, we'll do an ivnestigation and
                             get back to you on it".
                             \_ I will grant you that the theocracy in Iran
                                wants and continues to advocate the destruction
                                of Israel. However, they also want the
                                continuation of their precious Iranian way of
                                life. The mullahs, imams, and ayatollahs know
                                they have a very sweet thing going now in their
                                locked down theocracy, and they have no
                                intention of messing it up. Their first goal is
                                the preservation of their own rule, followed by
                                the destruction of Israel and restoration of
                                Palestinian rule; it is due to their fear of
                                unilateral destruction that they continue to
                                move through proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah, Sadr)
                                rather than act directly (i.e., deployment of
                                the Iranian army). When Iran gets nukes, expect
                                a period of retrenchment followed by a
                                resurgence in their support of their proxies.
                                Oh, and a hell of a lot more rhetoric.
                                \_ Really it all comes down to just how crazy
                                   do you think the Iranians really are.  I
                                   look at how they run their internal affairs
                                   as well as foreign and they're either insane
                                   or incompetent to an insane degree.  Either
                                   way I think we can agree that a nuclear
                                   armed Iran is just about the worst thing
                                   possible for the world as a whole, not just
                                   the region even if it doesn't come down to
                                   a nuclear fire storm.
                                   \_ Right. I think it comes down to whether
                                      you think they're suicidal-crazy or just
                                      crazy-crazy. Cf. Kim Jong Il: crazy, but
                                      also very much attached to his life and
                                      the preservation thereof.
              \_ doubt it'll be Iran, but rather some other nameless terrorist
                 group that 'got them from somewhere' that remains unnamed,
                 to leave israel with nobody specific to retaliate against.

              of the aggressor, whatever it takes.
                 \_ for that matter, nameless terrorist group might as well
                    get the nuke from pakistan / n korea / russia
  7/13    Regardless of who's right or wrong (good luck on that), predictions
          on the outcome of the Israelis hitting Lebanon?  -John
          [\_ ...]
             \_ There are three objectives:
                (1) Occupy a Israel-dictated buffer zone (again),
                (2) Indicate that future kidnappings will be met with a
                    disproportione use of force (you'll hurt more than me), and
                (3) Getting the soldiers back.
          \_ The most likely outcome is a temporary ceasefire, with Israel
           holding onto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
             holdingonto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
             Hezbollah fires another rocket into Israel while the press writes
             "wasn't there supposed to be a ceasefire?"
                 \_ Why do you think Israel invaded Lebanon? It's to show
                    that they are not above taking revenge on governments
                    supporting 'nameless terrorist groups'. I think Israel
                    would use it as a chance to nuke every fucking enemy
                    they ever had, involved or not.
                    \_ I don't think there will be an 'Israel' left post-nuke
                       so much as a few subs with MERVS and whatever nukes
                       survive buried out in the sand where the soliders
                       have orders to fire if Telaviv is ever blown up.  But
                       my call is that every arab capitol plus Mecca, Medina,
                       and the key oil fields and refinery/shipping cities are
                       all dust.
                       \_ It's a really small step from that to the end of
                          human civilization as we currently understand it.
                          All of the scenarios for "limited" nuclear war are
                          pretty dicey.  Can you imagine what would happen to
                          the world if a nuclear war leveled the middle east?
                          You thought gas was expensive before...
                          Or are you just looking forward to being Mad Max?
                          \_ Yes, I can imagine all that.  I didn't say I'm
                             looking forward to any of it.  I don't base my
                             predictions on what I'd like to happen.  I base
                             them on what I believe will happen given my
                             understanding of the situation and the people
                             involved.  What is the point of making a bogus
                             prediction based on what I'd like to happen?
                             That isn't a prediction, it is just sticking
                             one's head in the ground. I don't have to like
                             it to believe it.
2006/8/11-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43978 Activity:nil
8/11    http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp
        Pro-Israel organization wages propaganda war
        \_ The narrator's smug tone makes me want to go blow up Israel myself.
           \_ The narrator probably isn't even Israeli.  Do you have any
              issue with the content, or only his tone?
        \_ gasp. one propaganda war to battle another.  Where will it all end?
           \_ In my pants.  Huh huh.  -beavis
2006/8/1 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43859 Activity:nil
8/1     http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284163,00.html
        Israeli news editor says fuck ya'll to world reaction to Qana massacre
2006/8/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43854 Activity:nil
8/1     Would you support stop of arm shipments to Israel?
        \_ No.
        \_ Wouldn't they still be fine?  I mean I was under the impression their
           economy even w/out aid >>> palestine & lebanon's economy.
           \_ but they have to compete with the rest of the Arab nations, too.
               -tom
2006/7/31-8/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43844 Activity:moderate
7/31    Can you guys please take the Israel/Hezbollah/whatever screaming match
        to Sproul Plaza?  It was entertaining, but you're really not
        convincing each other.  -John
        \_ you are saying NOW because for the first time you actually feel
           something IDF has done which is not right?
           \_ _Huh_?  No, I'm saying the discussion is old, pointless, and
              a waste of precious, intellectual MOTD space.  -John
                \_ Intellectual MOTD space? When did we get that installed?
                   \_ And how do I get my quota increased? -gm
        \_ Agreed. I'm all for trading actual information, but this has
           devolved into less signal than noise. --erikred
           \_ The "actual information" is the subject of debate.
              \_ Let me see if I can sum this up: Hezbollah's launching
                 rockets into Israel and abducted two Israeli soldiers;
                 Israel is bombing southern Lebanon and Beirut and has blown
                 up the airport and the road out of Lebanon into Syria as
                 well as some UN observers. Israel is claiming that it has
                 the right to defend itself, which no reasonable human beings
                 are debating, although everyone who is not Israel is
                                                \_ Correct, but without taking
                        a close look at who "everyone" is" you miss an
                        important point: "everyone" would be perfectly happy
                        if Israel was wiped out, so just how valid is the
                        opinion of "everyone"?  Also, I suspect "everyone"
                        would have a very different view if it was "everyone's"
                        country under attack from Hezbollah instead of Israel.
                        In fact, "everyone" deals quite harshly with their own
                        local terrorist groups but has a remarkable different
                        take on Israel's problems.  See how hard it is to
                        provide a list of facts?  The facts without context are
                        useless and easily manipulated.  Without context and a
                        full array of facts the events quickly disolve into
                        propaganda and PR and moral equivalency.
                        \_ "everyone" is a classic weasel word.  You took
                           way more space than was necessary to say that.
                           Check out the wikipedia (I know, I know) definition:
                           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
                           \_ I was also pointing out the hypocritical nature
                              of those in the "everyone" category.  Their
                              opinions are thus invalid in a discussion based
                              on morals and ethics.  If you want to discuss
                              things in terms of pure might-makes-right then
                              yes, "everyone" can punish Israel quite harshly
                              economically and in other ways for engaging in
                              more self-defense than "they" deem proper for a
                              Jewish state.
                 suggesting that the response has been somewhat over-
                 enthusiastic. Everyone apart from Israel is calling for a
                 cease-fire. Israel has declared a moratorium on the bombing
                 except on sites where missiles are about to be launched.
                 The two hostages have not yet been returned. This appears to
                 be the actual information. The part about whose fault this
                 all is and who's more evil than who seems to be the part
                 that's being shouted about. Did I miss anything? --erikred
                 \_ yes.  you need to be a bit more objective by not
                    leave out important facts, such as the number of Israelli
                    civilian / military personnel killed, and the number of
                    Lebanonese civilian / Hezbollah killed.  You are implying
                    the casualties are on both sides, but in reality it's more
                    lop-sided.  Also, you may also want to includes all the
                    IFRC convoys and fleeing trucks being bombed as well.
                    \_ No, I think you need to be more objective -- the things
                       you're suggesting are clearly subject to dispute and
                       therefore not suitable as 'facts' at this time.  Nice
                       thread hijack attempt, though.
                       \_ The huge number of Lebanonese civilians are killed
                          by IDF, that is fact (huge compare with number of
                          Israeli citizens died of Hezbollah attack).  IFRC
                          convoys are being bombed by IDF, fleeing trucks are
                          being bombed by IDF.  These are all facts.  Note
                          that I didn't mention anything about why IDF did
                          so.  *THAT* is a subjective stuff.  You are
                          being Jewish first, fact seconds, and trying to
                          leave out any facts that you deemed unfavorable to
                          Israeli cause.
                 \_ stop confusing me facts!!
                 \_ More actual information: Hezbollah's rockets are killing
                    civilians in Israel.  Israel's bombs are killing civilians
                    in Lebanon.  The part about whether the civilians on this
                    side or that side are actually "innocent" civilians are
                    probably being shouted about also.
                    \_ again, this implies equal number of civilians are killed
                       on both side.  While actual number may be in disbute,
                        it's only fair to point out the lopside-ness of the
                        casualties.
        \_ How is it any different than any other heated topic on the motd?
           Let's not talk about politics, climate change, or anything else
           that might get someone's knickers in a bunch.  No one is forcing
           anyone here to read anything.
           \_ It's not -- but there's nothing wrong with a reasonably polite
              request to change the subject since it's clear that neither
              side is going to listen to the other.
              \_ What are the odds anyone is going to stop discussing the
                 topic because the OP is no longer entertained by it?  If the
                 OP no longer cares to follow the threads related to an on-
                 going world event, the OP is welcome to skip them.  I skip
                 plenty of threads of no interest to me without asking the
                 participants to stop.  Tipping etiquette was of no interest
                 to me at all and went on for several screens over several
                 days.  No one asked them to stop, nor deleted the thread
                 until it was dead.
                 \_ Tipping Etiquette....right.  Whatever you say.
                    \_ It went on for almost a week and spanned several
                       screens and was boring as dry paint but I didn't
                       whine about it.  You couldn't have missed it.  Maybe
                       you found it fun and exciting and intellectually
                       stimulating?
                 \_ It was a long discussion, as opposed to a series of
                    constantly rehashed points that don't serve to
                    convince anyone of anything, least of all the
                    participants.  -John
                    \_ No, it was pretty much the same rehashed tipping
                       discussion as the previous times with at least one
                       of the same participants, no change in attitude, no
                       new useful information and no one convincing anyone
                       of anything.  Easily summarised as, "The elitist
                       entertain-me crowd vs. the proletariat".  Class
                       warfare: yawn.
                       \_ Actually, you're wrong, but since you're being
                          an obtuse idiot, I won't bother your tiny brain
                          with the details.  -John
        \_ shrug. I just press space bar and skip it if it's not interesting.
2006/7/31-8/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43841 Activity:high
7/30    Hey, Israelis, supporters of Israel, this should make you proud:
        (picture of dead terrorist from NY Times, ranging from 9 month old
        to 95 years old)
        http://tinyurl.com/o3dhk
        For those who don't remember, "accident" of similiar scale happened
        10 years ago in the same town,  Qana, in a UN refugee compound, when
        Israelis was using anti-personnel shell (you know, those kind that
        explode in the air for maximum damage) attacking the UN compound.
        And you said this kind of attack has a moral high ground compare with
        sucide bomber in a city bus?
        \_ Oopsie!  A very inconvenient 8 hours between the attack and the
           building falling apart.  Stop storing explosives in homes and homes
           will stop being attacked.  And hey, how about returning the
           soldiers, disarming Hezbollah, and stop firing hundreds of rockets
           every day at random into civilian areas in Israel and terrorist
           sites in Lebanon will stop being attacked.  You conveniently forget
           that this border has been peaceful for 6 years until Hezbollah, who
           was supposed to have disarmed, built up a huge weapons stockpile
           under UN supervision.  Ignoring context and history is a key
           elemental to propaganda like yours.
           http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
           \_ all these 36 kids died in Qana deserve their fate because
              Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers?  How many Hezbollah soldiers
              are being tortured by IDF everyday?
              \_ Go look up "human shields", troll.
           \_ peace might of still be there if Israel don't overreact.
              400+ civilian died for the 2 soldiers?  you are giving Arabs
              excuse to toss nuclear bomb at Israel in the future.
              \_ Ha, you mean the excuses they've been using for the last
                 50 years won't do?  The surrounding countries have never
                 needed an excuse to kill Jews.
              \_ Hezbollah exists only to attack and destroy Israel.  They
                 don't need an excuse.  What gave you the idea they had any
                 other reason for existing or anything short of the complete
                 destruction of Israel would get them to stop attacking?
        \_ Please give me the # dead from bus / pizza joint bombs vs.
           a military action gone awry. One is a targeted attack on civilians
           the other might have gone astray. It's like second-guessing
           a police shooting. 3 secs to decide, 30 years for everyone else
           to pass judgement. Let's see Hezbollahs' "restraint" duing
           a unilateral cease-fire.
           \_ Israel has killed 20x civllians in Lebanon in the current
              conflict as Hizbolla has killed via rocket attacks into
              Israel.
              \_ When terrorists stop using their own people as human shields
                 and attacking sovereign states across borders civilian deaths
                 will stop on all sides.
           \_ that is my point. For some reason, Israeli's "targeted" strike
              has killed more innocent people than Hezbollah and Hamas and
              Islamic Jihad combined.
              \_ This is a function of tools at their disposal, rather
                 than intention.  But a state is reasonably held to a higher
                 standards.  Intention cound but it isn't everything.
                 And right and wrong isnt zero sum.  Thant's why this is
                 complicated.
                 complicated.  I actually think some of what is currently
                 going on is "more excusable" than some of their past
                 policies such as the "2x4" policy or bulldozing homes
                 policy.
                 \_ I agree with you, function of tools.  This is why Arabs
                    are desperately want a nuclear bomb and eager to react
                    disproportionaly.  I am not justifying Hezbollah's action,
                    I am just want to point out that when you see Hezbollah
                    fighters slip into a refugee compound and decided to use
                    anti-personnel shell, I wouldn't consider that "doing
                    everything they can to prevent civilian casualty."
                    From most of non pro-Israel point of view, Israel has
                    lost its moral high-ground a long time ago; those who
                    set off bombs in buses are no differ than those IDF shell
                    raining on fleeing convoys.
                    \_ For most of "non pro-Israel point of view" Israel lost
                       its moral high-ground in 1948, 1967 and 1973.  How dare
                       they defend themselves?  It is outrageous!  Here's
                       something to consider: If all of Israel's neighbors
                       were completely disarmed what would Israel do to them?
                       If Israel was completely disarmed what would her
                       neighbors do to Israel?  If Israel was safe from attack,
                       there would be peace and trade.  If Israel was disarmed
                       there would be war and genocide.  Think about that for
                       a while.
                       \_ When Japan invade China in 1930's, their excuse was
                          to defend itself.
                          \_ Japan's PR has nothing to do with Israel's
                             reality.  Better luck next time.  You're *really*
                             stretching it now.  Why don't you just go all the
                             way and compare them to the Nazis?  You're only
                             a small step away.  Go for it!
2006/7/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43806 Activity:nil
7/26    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.observers/index.html
        "The timeline provided CNN by a U.N. officer in Lebanon showed the
        first bomb exploded about 200 yards from the U.N. outpost at 1:20 p.m.
        Tuesday, prompting the first call ... with the Israeli military.
        The officer said they were assured by the Israeli liaison that he would
        stop the attacks. A series of about nine more bombs hit within 100 to
        400 yards from the observers over the next several hours, with a call
        to the Israeli military following each explosion.
        The U.N. base at Noqoura lost contact with the outpost at 7:40 p.m.,
        apparently the time of the direct hit, the officer said."
        http://tinyurl.com/r8zww (Wash Post)
        Senior Irish officer in UN observation force (not in the destroyed
        bunker) said to have made six phone calls in hours before.  Ireland
        files official protest with Israel.
        "He warned the Israelis that they were shelling in very close proximity
        to the post, and his warnings were very specific, explicit, detailed
        and stark. Obviously those warnings went unheeded."
        http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/world/26cnd-nations.html
        UN official says no Hezbollah firing was taking place in the area
        around the observation post in the six hours of phone calls and
        air/artillery strikes.
        \_ why are UN soldiers within 100 yrds of hezbolla targets?
           \_ it's my understanding Israel told the UN it wouldn't touch the
              UN observation posts
           \_ good try.  UN Observation post has been there forever.
              \_ shielding hezbollah targets 100 yards away forever?
                 \_ i am just saying that observation post has been there
                    for a long long time and Israel is fully aware of its
                    position. the fact that this post was destroyed by an
                    coordinated artiley shelling and ariel bombing, it is
                    quite obvious that this incident is anything but
                    "accidental."
                    \_ Israel didn't say it was an accident.  They said "we're
                       sorry we killed the UN guys".  If the UN stopped
                       shielding terrorists, UN guys would stop dying.
                       You're aware that the pullout agreement 6 years ago
                       said the UN was supposed to disarm Hezbollah, not
                       watch them build up a bigger military stock pile
                       than ever before.  Where was the UN report on the
                       last six years' of buildup?  These guys are obsevers,
                       so what were the observing and what'd they do about
                       what they observed?  This is the fault of the UN for
                       putting those guys there to die.  It was inevitable
                       given the situation the UN created.
        \_ Sounds like an excerpt from the "Demons and Angels" Red Dwarf:
           "The poor wretch. He has a faulty gun. He has accidentally shot
            me five times. Oh, how I love him!"
        \_ I've been saying that Israeli has a history of attacking
           UN facilities in the past.  All of them supposely "accidental."
           Does make you wonders...
           \_ Got a list of dates and events?
        \_ This is how IDF "do their best they can" to avoid civilian/UN
           casualties.  The reality is, they just do whatever they want and
           they know US will back them.
           \_ No, it is a message to the UN: Stop shielding terrorists and
              your people won't get killed.  Not that Khofi gives a damn
              about a few random guys on the ground.
        \_ One of the UN observer is a Chinese.  Chinese embassy has send
           a very strong protest to Israel.  Such protest is probably going to
           be ignored completely and IDF is probably going to be 'business as
           usual.'
           \_ As if.  The Chinese want Israeli weapons and couldn't care less
              about one dead guy.
              \_ much of Israel/Chinese weapon program has been suspended by
                 USA. secondly, remember the Hezbollah missile that hit
                 Israeli warship?  that is a Chinese design.  Chinese has
                 a significant weapon market share in the Middle East and
                 they can REALLY stir up the pot if they choose to.
        \_ That's funny, the UNIFIL says Hezbollah was firing from that
           position.
           http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/unifilpress.htm
           http://tinyurl.com/s6bdr (Herald Sun)
           \_ Israel has no right to shell and bomb UN site for any reason,
              even if Hezbollah was firing *FROM* that position.  Then again,
              Israel is no friend of UN for the past 50+ years.
              \_ Wow, that's really nutty.  So why would the UN allow Hezbollah
                 to fire at Israel from a UN site?  And Israel is supposed to
                 just let it happen?  That would have been a much better troll
                 if you were less black'n'white nutty about it.
                 \_ 1. these observers are unarmed. 2. it's not at UN's
                    interest for Hezbollah to fire from UN observation post
                    3. UN observation post is by no mean a safe heavan for
                    Hezbollah.  4.  Israel has been repeatly warned UN in the
                    past that UN observer tend to be more sympathic to
                    Palistanian and Lebonese... so you figures.
                    \_ 1) so what?  2) sure it is 3) it isnt *now*, it was
                       4) uh... what?  Yes we know the UN is biased against
                       Israel.  And?
2006/7/25-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43797 Activity:nil
7/25    http://csua.org/u/gj1 (yahoo.com)
        UN spokesman says Israeli airstrike made a direct hit on observation
        post manned by Indian soldiers, with unspecified casualties.  Also
        noted were 14 other incidents of "firing" close to this position,
        even during the rescue op (probably a "fog of war" incident - unlike
        the previous rocketing of vehicles in South Lebabon, where RoE ended
        up being "does the car have military age males in it and is it coming
        from a Hezbolla town?  yes?  then blow that fucker up!").
        \_ judging from Israel's past behavior, it's more like an warning to
           UN than "fog of war:"  "you better shut up and stop reporting the
           killing Lebanonese civilians, or these kind of 'accident' will keep
           happening to any of your observation post."
           \_ What past behavior is that?  War isn't a video game where every
              one on the field is marked red or blue.  By your reasoning all
              "friendly fire" incidents are intentional acts of murder.
              \_ no, only the incidents where the target contacted the
                 person firing multiple times before they got blown up.
                 \_ they weren't the target.  the hezbollah in the area
                    using them as a shield were.  and again, war isn't a
                    video game.  the orders to stop shelling could have come
                    down the line but not made it to the guys firing the
                    shells.  but it really doesnt matter and theres no reason
                    to find out the truth; anything israel does is
                    automatically intentional and a warcrime, video game, etc.
                    do you still believe the beach explosion in gaza a number
                    of weeks ago was israeli artillery?
2006/7/24-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43771 Activity:low
7/24    I got a problem and I need you guys' advice on how to help without
        myself being locked up in Cuba somewhere. Hezbollah runs a lot of
        hospitals, bomb shelterss and other Humanitarian organization.
        Right now, there are about 600,000 accused terrorist being displaced
        by Israeli forces.  200,000 of them are already fled to Syria, which
        is not a wealthy nation at first place and its subject to US economic
        embargo since 2003.  If I want to help those what I call refugees
        (jews [ed. Israelis]  probably would disagree), where can I send money to without
        being accused of providing material support to Terrorist / Terrorist
        Organization?  I don't think International Redcross has a strong
        presence there.   Thanks
        \_ You were sounding reasonable up to the anti-Jewish remark. Now
           I'm going to log your entry and report you to DHS.
        \_ Medecins Sans Frontieres is my suggestion--they're generally
           politically neutral and do good work.  http://www.msf.org  -John
           \- i believe the RedCross/Crescent is interested in going to
              south lebanon, but israel has refused to "guarantee" safe
              passage, but they have been willing to notify hizbolla
              if the RC wants to head down. in this case i dunno if there
              is really a difference between "guarantee safe passage"
              and a cease fire. i dont believe israel is saying "we will
              physicallyt block you from going in" but saying "you take
              physically block you from going in" but saying "you take
              your chances".
              \_ A lot of people take issue with the RC for its perceived
                 "hands-off" approach.  -John
                 \_ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/25/MNGJCK4N0A1.DTL
                 \_ http://csua.org/u/gj5 (sfgate.com)
                    How hands-off should they be?
                    \_ Don't ask me, I don't know.  However, the RC does not,
                       as a matter of policy, publicize its findings from
                       prisoner camps, that sort of thing.  They do
                       provide ambulance and emergency care services, which
                       is a Good Thing, I wasn't thinking of that.  -John
                    \- wow. has israel claimed that was a mistake
                       or "we're not going to make exceptions for
                       trucks that say Red *"? i can see they may
                       believe some civilians are helping Hizbolla
                       on the sly by playing a covert military role
                       but surely they arent saying the RC is helping
                       Hizbolla.
                       \_ If it was a mistake, it was a pretty deliberate one.
                          According to the red cross personel, they made a
                          second pass to take out the second ambulance.  Did
                          you see the pic in the article?  Dead center on the
                          cross.  That's pulitzer material...
                       \_ Why not?  They helped the PLO last time.
                          \_ Dude, that's a serious charge. Please provide a
                             URL. TIA.
                             \_ It isn't a "charge".  It is historical fact.
                                The RC showed up in ships to take the PLO to
                                Tunis.  It wasn't a secret.  It was broadcast
                                around the world.  I still recall seeing the
                                PLO thugs firing guns in the air in
                                celebration of the RC rescuing them from the
                                Israeli army.  I believe that's why the first
                                thing the Israelis did this time was establish
                                a navy blockade and bomb the bridges and roads
                                to Syria.  It wasn't about keeping their
                                soldiers from being taken out of Lebanon, but
                                to prevent escape for Hezbollah thugs the way
                                they made a mistake with the PLO.
                                \_ An "historical" "fact" that no one here has
                                   ever heard.  Provide. A. Link.
                                   \_ Sorry you can't remember but that doesn't
                                      make me a liar.  It just means that you
                                      can't remember. From the Washington Post
                                      archives:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/125498852.html?dids=125498852&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS&fmac=&date=Aug+31%2C+1982&author=By+Andriana+Ierodiaconou+Special+to+The+Washington+Post&desc=Greece+Welcomes+Wounded+Palestinian+Guerrillas
                                      And here's one for the gun fire I said
                                      I remembered:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/127698492.html?dids=127698492:127698492&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&fmac=&date=Aug+22%2C+1982&author=By+Leon+Dash+Washington+Post+Foreign+Service&desc=400+Arrive+In+Cyprus
                                      \_ First, thank you for posting the links
                                         as I requested. However, apart from
                                         these two articles in the Washington
                                         Post, I can't seem to find any other
                                         context for this. Why did the RC
                                         evacuate the PLO guerillas? Can you
                                         provide a link with historical
                                         context? This is fascinating, but in
                                         and of itself demonstrates nothing.
                                         \_ Oh, come on.  You have any idea how
                                            long it took to find an obscure
                                            reference to a pre-web story?  All
                                            the content from that time is
                                            behind for-pay links, but along
                                            the way I was wading through
                                            literally hundreds of pages that
                                            described the entire war in
                                            tedious detail from all
                                            perspectives using such uncommon
                                            search terms as "beirut", "plo",
                                            "red cross", and "1982".  The
                                            wikipedia entry posted below has a
                                            very limited but not entirely
                                            untrue version of events since
                                            you're incapable of performing the
                                            most basic search, I suggest you
                                            start there, but in no way does
                                            the story end there.  That's the
                                            super cliff notes version of
                                            events.  If you really care you'll
                                            go do your own reading.
                                            \_ Thanks for the bile. I already
                                               answered myself in the post
                                               below.
                                               \_ Bile?  Sensitive much?
                                                  \_ After all that, you're
                                                     asking me?
                                                     \_ After all what?  Its
                                                        not my fault you're a
                                                        lazy ass and I called
                                                        you on it.  That isnt
                                                        bile, that's truth. Get
                                                        a thicker skin.  The
                                                        truth shouldnt hurt
                                                        so much.
                                                        you on it while also
                                                        suggesting you do some
                                                        real research if you
                                                        actually want to know
                                                        what happened in Beirut
                                                        in 1982.
                                                        \_ Niggah, please. I
                                                           googled the terms in
                                                           your archived WP
                                                           story and got bupkis
                                                           so I politely asked
                                                           for more info. Then
                                                           I found and posted
                                                           the info below. Then
                                                           you accused me of
                                                           not doing research.
                                                           So I informed you
                                                           that I had. So now,
                                                           you know that I know
                                                           that your statement
                                                           implying that the RC
                                                           was aiding PLO was
                                                           grossly overstated.
                                         \_ And now, the rest of the story:
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
                                            Although not specified here, it
                                            appears that the the Red Cross
                                            transported the PLO to Tunis at the
                                            request of Americans, the French,
                                            and the Italians, not simply as a
                                            favor to the PLO.
2006/7/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43761 Activity:low
7/21    This is the best article I've found describing the recent Lebanon
        escalation and its repercussions
        http://csua.org/u/ghv (Wash Post, a mouthpiece for liberals, opinion)
        \_ Faster, please.
           \_ Faster and faster fast it goes
              Hutalahey Hutalahey
           \_ Faster, faster, fast it goes
              Playing the sitar with my toes
              Hutalahey, oh
              Oheyoh
              Hutalahey Hutalahey
              Hutalahey, oh-oh-ey-oh
        \_ I can understand Israel's right to defend itself, but this
           whole thing is just stupid. It's one thing to act tough
           when you are being attacked, but their response is
           disproportionate. This bullying attitude toward their
           neighbors will create more hatred toward Israel (and
           therefore the United States) throughout the world.
           Personally I think the only way they can make peace with
           their neighbors is by helping them out, one way or the
           other, instead of bomb the shit out of them at every
           opportunity.
           \_ They're doing a good job with their Pre-emptive Warfare,
              because fighting evil is a good thing. God Bless.
              because fighting evil is a good thing.
              \_ you are funny.
           \_ ie "Can't we all just get along"
           \_ Um, you do know that Israel was one of the biggest donors to
              pre-Hamas Palestine, right?  They repeatedly tried to help the
              bits of the country that _weren't_ attacking them.  And
              regardless, the sworn policy of Hamas and Hezbollah calls for
              the destruction of Israel.  Not "calls for that because Israel's
              been mean lately", but "has called for that since Israel's
              creation"  There's not a lot of room for diplomacy with those
              groups, and when those groups are in power, officially or
              otherwise... what do you do?
              \_ I don't know, but you can't seriously support what Isreal
                 is about to do - it is a collosal strategic mistake, no
                 matter what your politics. !pp
                 \_ What exactly is Israel about to and and why in your
                    expert-in-history-of-the-middle-east-and-military-stuff
                    is it a collosal mistake?
                 \_ Of course it is.  The previous post was contesting
                    "...help neighbors out instead of bombing them at every
                     opportunity..."  They've done both.
           \_ the stragetic mistake Israel made, IMHO, is Israel's deliberate
              act of punishing / weakening Lebanonese government.  More stable
              and wealthy Lebanon government it is, less justification for
              Hezbolla to keep their arm.  In fact, one would argue the reason
              Hezbolla kidnapped Israeli soldier WAS to create incident to
              justify their status quo.  By destroying the basic infrastrue
              Lebanon has build in the past 20 years, Israel is in effect
              strengthening Hezbolla.
              MAY BE, that is what Israel want, a strong, out of control
              Hezbollah that Israel can justify their attack.  I simply don't
              know.
              \_ Hezbollah doesn't help their cause with rocket attacks. It
                 rather proves Israel's point. Can you imagine rockets
                 bombarding Mexico from Texas and the US not stopping it?
                 Hezbollah should not fight back and show Israel to be
                 the aggressors.
                 \_ Hezbollah helps their 'cause' a great deal by lobbing
                    rockets into Israel.  Their *only* cause is the complete
                    destruction of Israel.  They don't hide that fact.  They
                    are not in any way ashamed of that.  They announced it
                    proudly to the world.  What do you think their cause is?
                    \_ Lobbing rockets into Israel will only set them back.
                       It's not like that is going to destroy Israel. However,
                       it turns international opinion against them and proves
                       that Lebanon can't or won't control their activities.
                       Open war with Israel is not going to help Hezbollah at
                       the moment.
                 \_ Then why are they focusing their attacks on Lebanese
                    infrastructure?  Bombing the rocket facilities seems
                    perfectly justified.  Bombing highways does not.
                    \- I'm ceritainly not a knee-jerk israel supporter,
                       nor have i been following this "accidental war"
                       very closely, but hizbollah is not a group of nutjobs
                       at arms length from the lebanese state ... they hold
                       cabinet-level posts as well as being an appreciable
                       part of the legislature [10-20%?]. i recognize a weak
                       govt in a place like lebanon doesnt have complete
                       control over all parts of the country, but they also
                       cannot totally take refuge in "what can we do" ... i.e.
                       to israel's war not just with an outfit of fanatics
                       israel's war not just with an outfit of fanatics
                       but to some extent with the state. it's not as clean a
                       case of nobody expecting the US to distinguish between
                       the taliban [then the afgan state, more or less] and
                       al queda, but there is an element of that.
                       the mexico-texas thing is a strawman. i havent thought
                       about this deeply but consider the crossboarder
                       interventions in SE Asia in the 70s ... that might
                       be a better scenario to mine for what is a comparable
                       scenario ... china in vietnam, vietnam in cambodia,
                       khemer rouge, incursions into laos etc. do not taunt
                       LON NOL.
                    \_ Bombing the highways and runways prevents Syria from
                       moving more arms into southern Lebanon.
                       \- maybe this is a silly question but if israel
                          has clear evidence that syria and iran are
                          aiding and abetting HIZBOLLA, how come they
                          dont do a CPOWELL-style UN presentation with
                          the smoking gun. i'm not suggesting i or anybody
                          else doubts the connection, but it seems like
                          that sort of forces "the world" to confront the
                          issue ... especially the issue of state involvement
                          rather than state vs "group of crazies". then israel
                          can paint this as a proxy war against them by
                          two states.
                          \_ It isn't silly but it is naive.  Let's say they
                             have this evidence in a way that is easily
                             presented to the UN and make the best presentation
                             the UN has ever seen and now the whole world is
                             convinced of it.  So what?  The whole world
                             already knows and believes Syria and Iran are
                             supporting terrorist organizations like Hamas
                             and Hezbollah.  Why would the world 'confront'
                             them over it?  Nations exist only for one
                             reason: to advance their own interests.  It is
                             not in the interests of most of the world to
                             support Israel or oppose Iran (where their oil
                             comes from).
                             \_ I think your extended comments are a bit
                                naive. There are significant implication of
                                this being state vs state vs sort of a
                                "police action" type setting. It can put
                                Lebanon in the position of taking a postion
                                on Syrian/Iranian involement. I was looking
                                for a reply by somebody more knowledgable
                                about sunni-shiite interest, for example
                                [like which states are actually kind of
                                happy to see Hizbolla take a pounding] ...
                                the it's trivial to say people will act
                                in their own interest. What is meaningful is
                                to discuss what those interests are in this
                                scenario.
2006/7/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43758 Activity:nil
7/21    U.S. television and print media seem to place less importance on deaths
        of Lebanese civilians
        http://csua.org/u/ghs (Wash Post blog)
        \_ I agree with many of the reader comments posted on this
           page.  I just wish my writing skill is better so I can
           troll the motd with more credible opinions.
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43685 Activity:nil
7/17    I heard a good summary of the Middle East problem over the weekend:
        If the Arabs didn't have guns, there wouldn't be a war.
        If the Israelis didn't have guns, there wouldn't be an Israel.
        \_ True.  But if the Arabs didn't have guns and the Israelis did, there
           would be a very big Israel.
           \_ I don't think so. Israel doesn't really have any imperialistic
              goals. Israelis are happy with the historic boundaries of
              their country. They only occupy more because they have to.
              \_ that is one of the funniest thing I've ever heard for a long
                 long time.  First of all, Israli justify their existence
                 based upon God's promise.  And if you impose what God have
                 promised versus what Israel occupies today, you might agree
                 with me that current "Israel" is about 1/4 of what God
                 promised them.
                 \_ Let's talk about Taiwan, shall we?  Or Tibet?
                 \_ Funny, most Israelis I know think the whole "greater
                    Israel" thing is a crock and "justify their existence" on
                    not wanting to live somewhere where their families are
                    wiped out, either then or now.  I also don't see many
                    Israelis (beyond the crackpots) calling for the
                    annihilation of their neighboring states for no reason,
                    but then again I guess that doesn't matter to you.  -John
                 \_ Really?  There's a map somewhere?  Does God provide GPS
                    coordinates defining the boundaries?
                    \_ He speaks directly to Pat Robertson.  Sharon got the
                       coordinates wrong, so God laid the smackdown on him.
                    \_ Yes, of course God provides the God Positioning System
                       to the Chosen People.
              \_ What are the historic boundaries of Isreal again? Show me
              \_ What are the historic boundaries of Israel again? Show me
                 a map please. And when in history do you want to go? 1950?
                 1800? 1000? 1000BC? It has hardly been static.
                 \_ historical border is irrelevant. What is relevant is
                    the current border, which is as good as how much your
                    country can afford.
                 \_ Here's a better question:
                    What are the boundaries of Israel that the Arabs
                    would tolerate?
                    \_ If you mean the current residents of Gaza, the West
                       Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and several others: none.
                       There is no amount of land that is ok for Israel to
                       have.  "Push them into the sea" isn't hyperbole.
                       \_ No, most Palestinians have signed off on the
                          47 borders of Israel. Or at least they did back
                          when Arafat was still alive. Maybe he wasn't the
                          Devil you made him out to be, eh?
                          \_ The 1947 borders?  You mean the ones that were
                             good only if the Arabs would agree to live
                             peacefully with Israel but are suicidal if there's
                             a constant state of war?  Oh yeah, those are great
                             borders... if you're looking to push Israel into
                             the sea.  Afarat was a killer and a thug and the
                             worst thing possible for his people.
                             \_ Really? Are the Palestinians now better off
                                without his leadership? Heck, for that matter,
                                is Israel?
                    \_ "The Arabs"? I dunno, didn't Egypt agree to the
                       67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M of them? I imagine
                       67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M Arabs? I imagine
                       it would be hard to get 200M people to agree on anything.
                       Okay, I just found the treaty between Israel and
                       Egypt on the web (isn't this informaion superhiway
                       thingy grand?). It only outlines the Isreal/Egypt
                       thingy grand?). It only outlines the Israel/Egypt
                       border, not the whole thing. I bet "The Arabs" would
                       live with Isreal in its 56 borders, though that is
                       live with Israel in its 56 borders, though that is
                       certainly open to debate. Those borders are what
                       Abbas and his crew have asked for.
                       Abbas and his crew have asked for. Also, what makes
                       your question "better" than mine? What is the
                       "historic" boundary of Isreal???
                       "historic" boundary of Israel???
                       \_ Israel occupies its current borders out of
                          necessity, not out of some imperialist desire.
                          As someone else said, they could occupy more
                          land if they wanted to. I do not think that the
                          Arabs (meaning the former Arab League,
                          especially Syria) tolerate the existence of Israel
                          at all. If Israel went back to the old borders
                          I predict that it would ultimately be attacked,
                          not that peace would then reign.
           \_ Israel has won how many wars against all of their state sized
              neighbors?  They could be much bigger if they wanted.
        \_ The guy who wrote this must be a Jew.
           \_ Wow, trolled lately?
2006/7/14-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43673 Activity:nil
7/14    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_62
        "The level of damage inflicted by Israel appeared finely
        calibrated. For example, a missile punched a hole in a major
        suspension bridge on the Beirut-Damascus road but did not destroy it,
        unlike less expensive bridges on the road that were brought down. An
        Israeli strike hit fuel depots at one of Beirut's two power stations
        sending massive fireballs and smoke into the sky but avoided the
        station itself."
        \_ Israel's attack is always "pinpointed."  But the past record showed
           pinpointed attack often result in death of, let say, 7 month old
           terrorist, or entire terrorist's family age from 9-17.  Some
           would argue that "unjustified death" from those Israel attack
           validates sucide bombing tactics in the middle of crowded buses.
           You know, those Arab has such twisted sense of what is justifiable
           what is not... those 7 month old, future terrorist, and those 1
           year old future terrorist *DESERVED* to be bombed or shelled;
           ANY reasonable person from the Western world would agree with that.
           \_ the goal of a terrorist bomber is to kill as many civilians
              as possible.  this speaks for itself.
              \_ the goal of terrorist bomber is to make the cost of
                 occupation as high as possible.
              \_ The goal of a terrorist bomber is not something for a
                 modern democracy to measure its actions by.  There is a very
                 big line between civilian casualties incurred from
                 hitting a military or paramilitary target, and
                 indiscriminately killed women or children.  The former is
                 tragic and to be avoided whenever possible, but before
                 judging, what would _you_ do?  -John
                 \_ remember, more Iraqi civilians died of US bombing
                    during the invasion than those killed by suicide bombers.
                    (iraqibodycount)
                    are you saying that as long as we kill civilians via
                    arial bombing, that will be ok?
                 \_ What would I do?  Get the fuck out.  I'd move to America
                    or Europe and not look back, if I were either Israeli or
                    Arab.  -!pp
                    \_ To them it's home.  By this logic, I don't think
                       anyone would stay where they're from (because no
                       matter where you are, it's get-the-fuck-outtable in
                       someone else's view... -John
                       \_ this is great.  Those Arabs who live there for
                          1800 years doesn't belong there.  those who
                          migrate to there in 1948 consider that "home" and
                          have the right to defend itself...
                          \_ Israel has no problems with allowing Arabs
                             in the country and holding government posts. Arabs
                             seem to have a problem with Israelis being there.
                             \_ Why won't they let the 1948 refugees back in
                                then? Isreal only allows a very few Arabs
                                in their country and the ones that they do
                                allow are 2nd class citizens, ala apartheid.
                                \_ They left.  Why should they be allowed back
                                   in?  Can the Jews who got kicked out of the
                                   Arab countries in the Middle East return
                                   home and get their stuff back, too?  No.
                                   There are Arabs in the Israeli government.
                                   They were elected to office just like in
                                   any democracy.  If you have a specific
                                   example of second classness, please share.
                                   \_  http://www.csua.org/u/gg7
                                       http://www.csua.org/u/gg6
                                       45% of Isreali Arabs live in poverty,
                                       compared to 15% of Isreali Jews.
                                       Okay, I step back from my apartheid
                                       statement though, that is going too
                                       far. But they are second class citizens.
                                       Unlike the Palestinians stuck in the
                                       occupied territory, who are not even
                                       citizens at all.
                                       \_ So there is evidence that Israeli
                                          Arabs are being oppressed by the
                                          government and lack the full rights
                                          of Israeli Jews and this explains
                                          the higher poverty rates?
                       \_ how about this kind of turkey shoot?  these guys
                          are 1. civilian and 2. trying to get out:
                          http://tinyurl.com/lwxtj
                          according to your logic, bus bombing from the air
                          or artillery shell is perfectly ok?  I am sorry,
                          I ain't no Hezbollah or Hamas, but I don't find this
                          convincing.
                          \_ No, according to my logic its okay if you're not
                          \_ No, according to my logic its tragic, but maybe
                             very regrettably unavoidable, if you're not
                             blatantly trying to whack civilians (and trying
                             to avoid doing so whenever possible.)  Which, as
                             far as I'm aware, is usually the case.  And as
                             for who's lived there longer, let's see, I think
                             most Arabs (and most Israelis) were probably born
                             there after 1948?  They're both there now, and
                             bitching about whose grandparents were where first
                             won't solve it.  -Johnj
                             won't solve it.  -John
j
                             \_ bombing a civilian bus call it "tragic?"
                                The differences is that I don't believe every
                                thing Israeli says, you do.  I sincerely
                                don't think Israeli care too much about
                                civilian casualties, or collateral damage
                                involves MASSIVE number of women and children.
                                Number talk, John.  Arabic civilian casualties
                                is at least one order of magnitude than
                                Israeli civilian in the past conflict.
                                You really think the 18,000 casualties in
                                Lebanon back in 1982 were all Hezbollah
                                fighters?   How about Israeli-backed Christian
                                groups who slaughter every Sunni and Shiite
                                in sight?  The truth is, Israeli doesn't care.
                                They felt they need to defend itself.  If it
                                means 20 civilians or 9 family members going to
                                die along with that one terrorist, they will
                                drop the bomb, fire the missile.  There is no
                                differences between Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and
                                IDF.  While American media covers virtually
                                every sucide bombers attack, there is virtually
                                no photographs, video footage or any kind of
                                media coverage of Arabic civilian fleeing
                                Southern Lebanon and being mow down by IDF
                                machine guns.   IDF reminds me a lot of
                                the behavior of Imperial Japanese Army in
                                China backed in the WW2 days.
2006/7/13-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43659 Activity:nil
7/13    http://csua.org/u/gf9 (globeandmail.com)
        U.S. casts lone dissenting Security Council vote on resolution which
        criticized disproportionate use of force by Israel, called for the
        release of an abducted soldier, and urged both sides to take steps
        toward restarting the peace process.  The vote was 10-1, with UK
        abstaining and the other three permt Sec Council members voting for.
        \_ Wow.  WWIII imminent.
2006/7/6-7 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43577 Activity:nil
7/6     Wow, I got this in my http://movietickets.com e-mail today:
        Islam: What the West Needs to Know    (NR); NY/Wash/ATL
        ... this documentary demonstrates that Islam is a violent, expansionary
        ideology that seeks the destruction or subjugation of other faiths,
        cultures, and systems of government.
        \_ Islam or Death  (In Michigan)
        http://lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060705/OPINION02/607050335&
           \_ Silly man, doesn't he realize that without cherry-picking the
              religious texts, there would be no western liberal (and that
              includes fundies, btw) Christianity?
              \_ That's a huge oversimplification of the situation.  The core
                 issue is not cherry picking.  It is that the other major
                 religions have all come to terms with the modern world but
                 Islam has not.  The world has all sorts of crazies but you
                 don't see large organised well funded groups of <insert any
                 religion but Islam here> running around suicide bombing
                 civilians in some hopeless effort to turn the world into
                 their idea of 8th century heaven.
                 \_ and selectively ignoring inconvenient bits of one's
                    religious texts is a key component of
                    "[coming] to terms with the modern world"
                    \_ Yes.  It has to be.  Is there a problem with that?
                       The alternative is the aggressive Islam we see today.
                       I much prefer people giving a wink and nod to people
                       cutting off heads and keeping women as 4th class non-
                       citizens.
                       \_ Yeah.  I'm curious how much of radical Islam has
                          to do with the fact that most of it's followers
                          are just really, really poor and uneducated.
                          \_ Most of radical Islam relies entirely on its
                             followers being illiterate and ignorant; if they
                             don't have to rely on Imams for instruction,
                             most people would reject radical Islam.
                             \_ Except the 9/11 suicide bombers, who were on
                                the whole well-educated and well-off.
                                \_ ... i.e., "most."
        \_ Sounds just like the Catholic Crusaders.
2006/7/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43571 Activity:nil
7/5     Soooo, Israel invaded the Gaza strip days ago and not a word on
        the motd.  It feels like the pink elephant in the room.  No one
        cares?  Shall we ignore this like we do the Darfur attrocities that
        continue to this day?
        \_ What do you want them to do?  Negotiate for the hostage?
           \_ if anything, first act of war was unleashed by Israel, impose
              unjustified economic sanctions upon a DEMOCRATICALLY elected
              government.
           \_ they demand release of those under 18 of age and women.  I
              don't know about you, but the demand sounds relatively reasonable
              to me.
              \_ so releasing a set of people known to carry suicide bombs
                 back into the general population sounds reasonable to you?
                 \_ how do you know ALL the people in Israelli custody are
                    guilty beyond reasonable doubt?
        \_ Hamas attacks Israel, and you think Israel is the problem?
           http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1209965,00.html
           \_ And you're ok with Israel cutting off the democratically elected
              government before they barely had a chance to get into office?
              \_ Hamas are terrorists and thugs, Hitler was democratically
                 elected, and I invoke Godwin's law and declare this
                 discussion over before it barely had a chance to
                 get started.  -John
                 \_ and PLA was not a terrorist?  how about PKK?  we are
                    actually giving money away to PKK, you know that, right?
                    \_ The PLA were as well.  As are the PKK.  And if we're
                       giving them money, that's not right.  Period.  -John
                       \_ but we do give money to PKK.
                 \_ Wait, are you trumping a Middle East discussion with a
                    Nazi abortion? Call Jerry Springer! --erikred
                 \_ I think this is an example of Quirk's Exception. -ausman
                    \_ Have you ever seen the MSU and IAC yelling at each
                       other (when I was at Cal, they were both at Sather
                       Gate.)  No, I wouldn't make an exception.  -John
        \_ See kids?  Don't drink and discuss Arab-Israeli politics.
        \_ Hamas uses suicide bombers against civilians.  Having an official
           policy of killing civilians for maximum civilian casualties speaks
           for itself.
           \_ Indeed.  Israel's had fucking tanks in Gaza for a few days now
              and there's a huge funeral because they've killed ONE guy who
              was about to fire a rocket at them.
              \_ I'm not trying to argue, and I have absolutely no respect
                 for Hamas, but Israel also killed a few people hanging
                 out on the beach a few weeks ago.  I think both sides
                 have done things to piss off and alienate the other side.
                 \_ how about bombing president's office?  bombing power plant
                    that knock 700,000 people out of power?  The truth is,
                    Israel want to destroy infrastructure of a proper nation
                    so Palestinian can never form an effective state.  This
                    whole thing is not about one soldier being kidnapped.
                    \_ You think they're capable of having an effective state?
                       Hamas and Fatah were already in a civil war which had
                       no Israeli involvement.
                       \_ you don't call illegal economic blocade an
                          "involvement?"
                 \_ Israelis did not blow up anyone a beach a few weeks ago.
                    Please stop repeating Hamas propoganda.
                 \_ yeah, but you just don't fight back against oppression by
                    blowing people up in crowded restaurants.
                    \_ Palestinians don't have a choice.  if they fight like
                       an regular army, they will be crushed.  FURTHER,
                       just remember, Israel was FOUNDED by terrorist bombing.
                       Remember those Zionist bombing against British?  of
                       course not.
                       \_ The British were foreign occupiers.  Bombing foreign
                          occupiers is ok.  Isn't it?
                          \_ Israel at the time wasn't a nation.  It was called
                             "British mandated PALESTINE."
                    \_ Yeah, agreed.  The problem, though, is that the
                       Palestinians think Israel does things like that on
                       purpose and then claims it was an accident.
                       \_ dude, I am not an Arab and I don't believe Israel
                          neither.  Israelli has a track record of shelling
                          UN refugee camp, destory target regardless civilian
                          casualties, and obey UN charter and international law
                          only for their benefit.
                          \_ A track record?  Please tell us when they shelled
                             a refugee camp?  Tell us what they should do when
                                \_ April 18, 1999.  Do i have to do all the
                                   google for you
                             the target hides among a willing population that
                             shields people lobbing rockets over the border?
                             \_ border? what border? Is there a border between
                                "Israel" and "State of Palestine?"
                             Tell us what would happen to Israel if they
                             pulled back to their pre-67 borders.  Or maybe
                             you'd prefer the pre-47 borders?
                       \_ I think they say that, but they don't really believe
                          it.
                          \_ Does it matter if they believe it?  They use
                            it as a justification for their actions.  Say
                            anything often enough and you, and a lot of
                            other people, will believe it.
                            \_ Who is concerned with Hamas' justifications
                               for anything?
                               \_ I don't think any of us are, I say f***
                                  Hamas.  But they have propaganda power
                                  over other Palestinians.
                               \_ I just say we should of give Hamas a
                                  chance before economic sanction was imposed.
                                  A political entity tend to say one thing
                                  to get the power, and the behavior changes
                                  as ruling and responsibility lays upon their
                                  shoulder.  Unfortunately, US policy was
                                  to destroy any chance 2-state solution, and
                                  destroy the democratically elected
                                  government.
                                  This make sense in the same way that we
                                  invaded Iraq.
                                  \_ Don't know much about Hamas, huh?
                                     \_ consider all your news are from
                                        US and Israeli sources, I would say
                                        i know more about Hamas than you do.
                                        \_ Except your assumption is
                                           wrong.
                                  \_ I'm not sure anything in Palestine
                                     counts as "democratically elected."
                                     It's more like feudalism with elections.
                                     \_ good try.  UN Observer and Jimmy
                                        Carter was there.  The election was
                                        fair.   You need to understand that
                                        democracy is all about organization
                                        and mobilization of people to vote.
                                        Hamas, Islamtic Brotherhood in Egypt
                                        are much better organized than the
                                        secular counter part.  So, if we
                                        decided that democracy is the best way
                                        to go (which i personally does not),
                                        then, you need to bite the bullet and
                                        accept the result.
                 \_ That's in pretty big dispute.  The shrapnel type was
                    different than that fired, the time was different, and
                    Palestinians tried to hide the evidence.  It is not
                    clear that Israel was responsible for that explosion.
                    \_ Seems quite clear they weren't responsible.  Sounds
                       more like a "work accident".
                 \_ Just curious, if terrorist hide among innocent
                    civilians and fire rockets, who's responisible for the
                    civilian casualties resulting from the response?  I
                    would say those who endangered the civilians in the
                    first place.
                    \_ Let's avoid the word "terrorist."  Terrorism is
                       a technique to wage warfare, nothing more.  These guys
                       in Gaza / West Bank are resistant fighters.  The way
                       they fight make avoiding civilian casulty difficult.
                       However, you need to remember, the reason why we hate
                       them is because they doesn't seems to mind killing
                       "innocent" civilians.  However, if anything, Israeli's
                       track record is as bad as those of Hamas and PLA in
                       terms of killing civilians, etc.  Just that we tend
                       to know every bombing in Israel, but we normally don't
                       see those civilians being killed by Israeli army, by
                       missile, by proxmity shell, by refuse them go to
                       hospital on the other side of check point.
        \_ Visit a Sbarro's and tell yourself there was one just like it
           that was blown up just because. I can't believe there are people
           who think that good will win!
2006/6/20-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43438 Activity:nil
6/19    Why have the Christians turned against our soldiers?
        http://www.godhatesfags.com/photos/2006/20060607_arkansas.html
        \_ In fairness, looking at Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist and asking
           why Christians hate US troops is a bit like looking at the Nazis
           and asking why socialists want to exterminate the Jews.
           \_ The Nazis were facist, not socialist.
              \_ Uh what?  You know what socialism is, right?  They were
                 socialists.
                 \_ Uh no they weren't.  Facism and extreme socialism can
                    look simaler, but there are huge differnces.  And just
                    because Nazi had socialism in the name doesn't make them
                    socialists.  Just like calling yourself El Presidente
                    doesn't make your dictatorship a democracy.
                    \_ And Phelps may call himself a Christian, but his
                       actions would paint him otherwise.
                    \_ So in what ways were the Nazis not "extreme socialists"?
                 \_ The Nazis believed in State control of the economy?
                    Really? Also, why did the Nazis kill all the Communists
                    and Socialists the first thing upon seizing power???
                    You historical revisionists always crack me up...
                    \_ Are you saying the Nazi economy was something other
                       than state controlled?  Could a Jewish company owner
                       have done good business in Nazi Germany?  If you don't
                       know that communist != socialists....
                    \_ Ignorant != Revisionist
                    \_ Fascism is a mixture of corporatism and state
                       syndicalism in a highly nationalist context.  It very
                       much postulates a very regimented economic environment
                       whose primary function is to serve state interests.  In
                       this sense it is very similar to socialism, although it
                       generally allows for private ownership of the means of
                       production, as long as these shut up and put up.  Sort
                       of like China today.  -John
                       \_ Since state interests in China = PRC leadership
                          interests these days, it's hard to tell if this is
                          socialism, fascism, or oligarchy.
                          \_ Yes.
2006/5/27-6/2 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43206 Activity:nil
5/26    Mormon Church posthumously baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060526/ap_on_re_us/baptizing_the_dead
2006/5/23-28 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43166 Activity:nil
5/23    http://70.85.161.7/forum/showthread.php?t=289073
        What do jews gain from communism? It's all about power and wealth.
        \_ Whoever is posting these is a moronic nutjob. -dans
        \_ Stormfront links go away
        \_ Link doesn't work but there is no question that early
          Communists in Eastern Europe and Russia were
          disproportionately populated by Jews.
2006/5/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43103 Activity:nil
5/18    Self-explanitory
http://hedgehogcentral.blogspot.com/2006/05/gaza-millions-for-kalashnikovs-not.html
        \_ Interesting read, but for the love of phil, 80-column your ass.
2006/5/18-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43092 Activity:nil
5/17    Did you guys see the letter from Ahmadinejad?
        http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12984.htm
        \_ Translation issues aside, that is a frighteningly clear and
           reasonable letter. I say frightening because I still think of
           Ahmadi-Najad as a fundamentalist nutjob, but I wasn't aware he
           was so articulate.
           \_ He is/was a professor.  Being a fundamentalist nutjob
              doesn't mean you aren't intelligent (although they do tend
              to be correlated).
           \_ "Reasonable" in the sense that, as above poster put it very
              well, nutjobs can still put up logically constructed
              arguments.  Much of what he writes is true.  However, it
              reminds me of a joke involving a bunch of people who visit
              East Germany in 1975, and after being told for hours what a
              great place it is, one of them asks the guide about the stasi,
              oppression, and a whole bunch of other horrid things.  The guide
              snaps back, "Americans oppress their black people."  -John
              \_ Here in Berkeley that's not a joke, it's an inspiring
                 tale of a liberated East German "speaking truth to
                 power."
                 \_ I'm sure in Berkeley a lot of things would be
                   considered "inspiring tales" by people who haven't the
                   slightest clue what the fuck they're talking about.  -John
2006/4/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42714 Activity:moderate
4/6     BTW, this is another (long) artcle generating some waves:
        http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
        [SWALT is PhD ucb dept political scence, probably under KWALTZ].
        \_ I'm about halfway through but right in the opening paragraphs these
           guys are already making opinion based statements as statements of
           fact and have yet to back them up.  Maybe in the last half of the
           paper they'll come through and actually back up their opinions with
           something.  I doubt it though.  If I'd turned in this for any of
           my rhetoric classes I'd get a B- if I was lucky and the instructor
           liked me.  It's a good thing these guys are in PoliSci and not
           Rhetoric.
                \- Something like "Israel gets 1/5th of us foreign aid budget"
                   is a fact. Did you ever take a rhetoric class from
                   judith butler: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n16/butl02_.html
                   What grade would you give her article? [I think the
                   first paragraph is good raising the issue of "intention"
                   being key to anti-sematism, but the rest of the article
                   "making the point jews" != "israel" is too long.
        \_ I hope Jews knows that such action of hijacking American foreign
           policy will eventually backlash and rightfully flares anti-semitism
           to protect US Interest.
           \_ ZOG IS TAKING OVER THE WORLD!  ITS THE JEWS!  KILL THE JEWS!
              THEY OWN THE BANKS, THE MEDIA, THE INTARWEB AND NOW THEY OWN
              US FOREGIN POLICY!!1  ZOG IS HERE!  ZOG IS EVERYWHERE!  THINK
              OF THE CHILDREN!
        \_ Now I am really worried after I read this.  I am worry that USA
           is REALLY going to attack Iran...
           \- wow, that was fast. i got 3paragraphs in and got depressed
              and put it off. you may want to read the 80pp long "academic"
              version of the paper. BTW, WALT and MEARSHIMER are top top
              people in their field. they arent random people nobody had
              ever heard of until they wrote this. i had not previously heard
              of the fellows who wrote the FA article below and dont have a
              sense of their reputation and track record.
2006/3/28-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42500 Activity:moderate
3/28    Likud seems to have been kicked upside the head in today's vote. Can
        someone who knows Israeli politics better comment?
        \_ Frontline on Ch 9 has something on this right now (~ 9:30 PM)
        \_ Sharon tolerated Likud because he needed them.  Likud negated their
           credibility on security concerns by acting like a bunch of paranoid
           naysayers, buddying up with religious lunatics (whom a lot of secular
           Israelis blame for inciting violence with the Palestinians), and by
           the fact that despite/because of Sharon pulling out of Gaza and acting
           unilaterally, bombs haven't been going off.  -John
        \_ Here's a different point of view: Sharon was a core member of Likud,
           one of the leaders of this conservative, secular party.  Due to the
           way the Israeli multi-party parliament works, Likud was forced to
           join with the far right religious party to form a government which
           meant the FRR-party got a small number of higher level government
           positions which they naturally used to further their agenda.  As
           far as the violence goes, it was reduced dramatically after Israel
           closed the borders and built walls/fences.  There was a lesser
           reduction in attacks when Sharon later unilaterally pulled several
           settlements out of the Gaza strip and certain West Bank areas. More
           recently, just before his stroke, he declared he was leaving Likud
           and forming a new centrist party.  His policies had already left
           him in a position where he was likely to lose his Likud position
           so he had nothing to lose by leaving although less astute political
           commentators at the time called this daring and brave.  It was
           really his earlier actions that left him in an untenable position
           in his party that were daring and brave and forming a new party
           was the logical next step.  It should go without saying that after
           Arafat died of some unknown disease in a French hospital and his
           wife was left in Paris with the hundreds of millions of EU and US
           cash he had looted the level of violence turned way down again but
           that has nothing to do directly with Israeli politics.
           \_ Nice, but where can I find some hot right-wing Israeli women?
              \_ On any Israeli bus, at any Israeli disco, or in any Israeli
                 pizza parlor, but you'd be putting yourself at serious risk
                 of being killed by a suicidal palestinian.  For your needs,
                 might I suggest usenet, your imagination, and your hand?  At
                 least that way you'll get some satisfaction.
                 \_ Hillel on Bancroft
                 \_ I think there are legal brothels in Tel Aviv.
                 \_ Are there any hot right-wing Israeli women here in the
                    Berkeley?  Is there an Israel Student Association or
                    something?
                    Berkeley?  Maybe an Israel Student Association?
                    \_ Mmmmm, sex slaves from eastern Europe... good plan.
                 \_ Are there any hot right-wing Israeli women here in
                    Berkeley?  We can play David and Bathsheba all night
                    long.
              \_ Mills.  Seriously.
2006/3/23-25 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42391 Activity:nil
3/22    http://ijc.typepad.com/ijc/2004/09/the_start_of_it.html
        http://www.flickr.com/groups/ijc
        Welcome to the world of the IJC.
        These girls are called IJC's for the simple reason that both on the
        surface and underneath they are all more or less exactly the same
        Interchangeable Jappy Chick.
        Common characteristics of IJC's include but are not limited to:
        -full breasted
        -straight dark hair
        -well tanned
        -slightly overweight
        -over-educated and underemployed
        -teeth a little too white and straight (daddy is a dentist after all)
        \_ Given the amount of time you invested in posting this  trash, did
           she dump you for someone else or what?
        \_ "Jappy"?
           \_ Since she doesn't look like a Nip, I'm going to guess
              "Jewish American Princess" --Jon
        \_ this makes no sense whatsoever.
           \_ It's more of an east coast phenomenon.  The slightly overweight
              thing is inconsistent with my experience, but, eh.  Things
              change.  Oh, just read the blog entry.  Dude, you go to the
              Bowery Bar, what do you expect? -dans
2006/3/21-23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42357 Activity:nil
3/21    http://www.russforpresident.com
        \_ is this guy Jewish? Isn't that bad news?
           \_ so who is the anonymous poster?
           \_ Would it change anything?  It's already common knowledge in
              Azurbijan that Bush and Cheney are both Jews.
              \_ "Jagshemash...I support my government's decision to sue
                 this Jew."  -Borat
2006/2/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41852 Activity:nil
2/14    lolly, are you single and Jewish? Are you available? If not
        can you please tell me how to meet Jewish women? I heard about
        this "Chabad" thing on the radio and I'm wondering if that's a
        good place to start. I totally worship Jewish people.
2006/2/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41833 Activity:moderate
2/13    So, now that Hamas is in power, is it likely they're going to change
        their military stance toward Israel?
        \_ Um, since the election they've repeatedly said their goal continues
           to be to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.  Why would you
           expect them to change anything?
           \_ Wishful thinking?
           \_ Because if they don't, they'll be broke and destitute.  The
              "Arab" community doesn't really like them, they just enjoy
              using them as an excuse for poor behavior.
              \_ I suppose after a while they might just emulate Araft by
                 saying nice things on the world stage, but supporting
                 terrorists at home.
        \_ free democratic elections in the middle east!
           http://tinyurl.com/cluk4
           as long as the people elect who we want
           \_ This is the whole thing about being responsible for your vote
              and government in a democracy.  If you elect fuckwits to office
              who your foreign sponsors hate, they'll cut your fuckit people
              off the free flow of cash.  If your people are willing to forgoe
              foreign aid in exchange for having fuckwit terrorists as your
              government, then more power to you.  I applaud the palestinian
              people for finally standing up and telling the world how they
              really feel and putting in people who best represent that
              feeling, however I'm not required to help fund their newly
              elected terrorist organization.  The sooner the rest of the
              middle east elects the same sort of terrorist psychos, the
              sooner the rest of the world will "get it".  Frankly, the
              honesty of the palestinian people is refreshing.
              \_ with all the enormous corruption in the palestinian government
                 I don't think the people even care; they probably barely
                 see a cent of it anyway.
                 \_ Fatah was corrupt.  It remains to be seen how much Hamas
                    pockets, but they have "won the hearts and minds" of the
                    people with hospitals, etc that Fatah's greedy hands
                    weren't able to run.  They're murderous scum but they're
                    not entirely stupid.  Expect more hospitals, schools, etc
                    along with more EU and UN money going directly into more
                    terrorist acts.
                    \_ Ah, but with that political capital that Hamas has with
                       the man in the street, they could probably get far more
                       popular support for a peace agreement than Fatah.
                       I'm not saying they'll do it, just that if they suddenly
                       had a change of heart, they are in a better position to
                       do it than the previous leadership.  Like Nixon in China.
        \_ Dude, I don't really know what is the big deal with Hamas?
           PLO was on Terrorist List, PKK of Iraq is *STILL*
           on the Terrorist List and we are dumping millions of dollars to
           aid their cause.  What makes Hamas so special that just because
           they are supposely a "terrorist organization" that we won't deal
           with them any more different than PLO and PKK?   *FURTHER*, what
           is the big deal about democratically elected government?  If we
           don't like them, we can always topple them.  We've done it in
           Guatemala, Iran, and Chile, and we can always do that again anytime
           we wanted.
           \_ Standard big world politics.  Our bastards vs. not-our bastards.
              \_ didn't say anything about others.  But I am just so sick of
                 hearing us having any principles.
        \_ No, they don't have any reason to change their stance.  They are
           fighting for what they believe is a legitimate cause (i.e. why
           should Palestine lose land for the creation of Israel when it
           was the Germans that commited the atrocities of WWII).  And
           honestly, Bush should put himself on the terror list.  Who else
           but him could unilaterally attack a nation over false pretense?
           Who else but him would torture others around the world?  Does
           any other nation around the world even do that anymore?  I've
           never seen anyone more morally bankrupt.  It disgusts me.
           \_ You were doing fine until you got to, "Bush should put...".
              Then you fell into whacky nut ranter territory.
           \_ Germany already lost a large amount of land which went
              to Poland and Russia, while Russia kept half of the prewar
              Poland that Stalin took in agreement with Hitler, which the
              noble allies conveniently overlooked along with his invasion
              of Finland and seizure of land there. They drove out all
              the Poles from that area and all the Germans from the other
              areas. So that land is what could have become Israel.
              But anyway... the Jews would always want the Palestinian
              Israel. Also Palestine wasn't and isn't a country so
              technically it didn't lose land.
              As for your Bush rant, it doesn't help your cause to spout
              hyperbolic bullshit.
2006/2/7 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41739 Activity:high
2/6     Haha, Iranian newspaper planning to print holocaust cartoons:
        http://csua.org/u/ex1
        \_ Shrug.  Government run Arab newspapers print the most racist, ugly,
           and horrible 'cartoons' about Jews and Israel everyday.  This is
           hardly news.  It's an Iranian PR stunt.  Frankly, I really hope
           *all* the Western newspapers and other visual media show their
           cartoons.  It'll be quite the eye opener for a lot of people instead
           of the main stream media white wash we've always had.
           \_ That's why it's funny.
        \_ This will show two things to the world:
           1) what islamic nutcases consider "equivalent" to some pretty tame
              depictions of mohammed
           2) that when you truly, deeply insult jews... they don't riot,
              burn your embassies, and threaten to kill you.  (ok, well, they
              kill you if you fire rockets or assassinate their olympic
              athletes, but that's different)
           \_ on the other hand, if you truly, deeply insult black people ...
              (Rodney King, LAPD, etc.)
        \_ People just love to take things out of context: I heard the full
           text of the edict on pictures of the prophet on NPR.
           The whole quote states that they should not be drawn for idolatry
        purposes only. No where does it forbid other reasons. But as they say,
        a basic requirement for being in a democracy is to be able to
           purposes only. No where does it forbid other reasons. But as they
           say, a basic requirement for being in a democracy is to be able to
        withstand being offended. That is one of the pillars of free speech.
           \_ If what you just gave is the context, how is it in any way
              interesting or important?
           say, a basic requirement for being in a democracy is to be able
           to withstand being offended. That is one of the pillars of free
           speech.
2006/2/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41703 Activity:very high
2/4     Why does everyone automatically assume Israel has a right to exist?
        In my eyes, if the Germans killed the Jews, shouldn't Israel be in
        Germany?  The Palestinians shouldn't have to sacrifice Palestine
        for the creation of Israel.  That seems like logical sense to me, no?
        \_ Do you own any land in California?  Are you planning to hand it over
           to Mexico?
           \_ I'm not exactly sure where you're going with those questions.
              Both Israelis and Arabs could use it to their defense.
              My question had to do with state of Palestine before WWII.
              Why is it that the Palestinians had to hand over their
              land when it was the Germans that committed the atrocities?
              To me, it would seem that if Germans commit the crime, they
              should be paying the penalty of losing land, not the Arabs.
              \_ I meant it as a rhetorical question.  I don't frankly think
                 it matters who owned California or Palestine 50 or 100 or
                 1000 years ago.  The fact is that there are both jews and
                 arabs on that piece of land, and any sane solution to the
                 problem has to allow both of them to live there in peace
                 somehow.  Personally, I would advocate a unified secular state
                 that recognises neither judaism nor islam as an official
                 religion.
        \_ Why does everyone automatically assume Palestine has a right to
           exist?  This area hasn't had an independent nation for a few
           thousand years and there's no such people as "The Palestinians".
           This is a fabrication created after Israel was founded.  Sheesh,
           Arafat was an Egyptian citizen.  Why don't we just kick out all
           these interlopers who came along after the only independent nation
           that ever existed there and give it back to them?  That seems like
           logical sense to me, no?  Oh, btw, HI ANTI ISRAELI TROLL!  Top of
           the mornin to ya!
           \_ hahaha, your calling me names hardly means anything to me.
           \_ hahaha, your calling me names is hardly means anything to me.
              And I would hardly call myself anti-Israeli or whatever you
              would like to believe.  I am simply asking a question.  And
              if you have insight that is exactly what I hoping to see.
              \_ No, I don't think your question was intended to spark a
                 serious or educational discussion. Thus, you = troll.  If
                 you were serious you wouldn't be so obnoxious.  Maybe next
                 time.
        \_ Jews have lived in the area for thousands of years.  They have lived
           in the Palestine area and are just as Palestinian as the so-called
           Palestinians.
2006/1/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41537 Activity:nil 90%like:41533
1/25    Hamas wins Palestinian election
        http://tinyurl.com/9xqqu (news.yahoo.com)
        \_ [Hamas and Fatah] "camps threw stones at each other, breaking
           windows in the building [parliament], as Fatah supporters briefly
           tried to lower the green Hamas banners [flying over parliament].
           The crowd of about 3,000 Hamas backers cheered and whistled as
           activists on the roof of the parliament raised the Hamas banners
           again."  So who do we blame for letting Palestine get taken over
           by Iranian backed religious fundementalist terrorists and now
           Palestine is going to fall into civil war?
           \_ Erm...The Palestinians that voted for them?
              \_ How do you figure that?
        \_ Between Hamas in Palestine and the UIA in Iraq, it looks like
           the Persian Empire is poised for a real comeback.
2006/1/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41533 Activity:high 90%like:41537
1/25    Hamas wins Palestinian election
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_election
        \_ [Hamas and Fatah] "camps threw stones at each other, breaking
           windows in the building [parliament], as Fatah supporters briefly
           tried to lower the green Hamas banners [flying over parliament].
           The crowd of about 3,000 Hamas backers cheered and whistled as
           activists on the roof of the parliament raised the Hamas banners
           again."  So who do we blame for letting Palestine get taken over
           by Iranian backed religious fundementalist terrorists and now
           Palestine is going to fall into civil war?
2006/1/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41484 Activity:nil
1/23    http://csua.org/u/eqr
        Iran's "president" Ahmadinejad in front of an interesting painting.
2006/1/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41463 Activity:nil
1/20    http://tinyurl.com/72upb
        Huh?  I thought it's legal to give Israel and Jews State Secret...
        \_ I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.  Not to be
           reactionary, but the state of Israel and the Jewish people are not
           identical.  Saying Israel and the Jews comes across as ignorant,
           and maybe mildly anti-semitic. -dans
           \_ OP is a troll.  He thought it was legal to give state secrets to
              anyone?  Uhm yeah, riiiiiight.  The whole thing is just looking
              for wildly angry responses.  He's got 2 baits hooked to his
              single line; neither looks tasty to me.  The Young Troll
              Advisory Council rates this troll as: WEAK.
2005/12/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:40969 Activity:kinda low
12/11   Still no press about a reporter denied entry to Syria because he's a
        Jew.  http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47806
        \_ Frankly, I don't see why a Jew would want to enter Syria.  Is
           there some hot story in Syria worth your life?
        \_ Isn't WND part of the press?
           \_ Not according to much of the motd.
           \_ Don't you think El Al has different standards for non-Jews
              and deny them boarding now and then?  I am not saying this
              is a good thing but it reflects the state of the world we
              are in in and doesn't seem exactly shocking or comparable to
              the Daniel Pearl incident.
              \_ I find this comment bizarre.  I doubt El Al has different
                 standards for non-Jews.  If you can prove it, I'd like to see
                 it.
              \_ No idea what El Al's policies are, but El Al isn't a nation,
                 a reporter isn't a random passenger, and a plane isn't a
                 country.  Other than that, El Al and Syria might be roughly
                 comparable.
                 \- a significant part of el al is owned by the nation of
                    israel. and i imagine this was even at a higher level
                    in the past, and i assume they tightly work with the
                    israeli govt. --psb
                    \- from Yahoo finance: --psb
                         The company was originally government-controlled,
                         but it is now 40% owned by Knafaim-Arkia
                         Holdings, which has an option to buy an
                         additional 12% by 2007. The Israeli government
                         has retained ownership of about 30%.
                       According to the israel ministry of foreign affairs,
                       as of 2000 it was 100% govt owned ... not sure
                       when it changed. see: http://csua.org/u/e9r
                       \_ It seems that El Al was privatized at the end of
                          2004.  http://www.mof.gov.il/beinle/press164.pdf
              \_ This doesn't prove anything but here is an anecdote
                 which seems believable.
                 http://www.latinastyle.com/currentissue/v10-6/f-facing.html
                 and some more discussion here (look for El Al)
                 http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/20/le.00.html
                       \_ It seems that El Al was privatized at the end of
                          2004.  http://www.mof.gov.il/beinle/press164.pdf
                 \- G-UNIT denied entry to CANADA because he is a G-UNIT --psb
                    http://www.sohh.com/articles/article.php/7986
        \_ Dude, Isreal refuses Palestinians entry into Isreal from
           Gaza and West Bank all the time. I am sure they deny entry
           to Syrians, too, since the two nations are still officially
           at a state of war. How could this possibly be news?
           \_ Because the OP is one of the "Jews are the center of the
              universe" flavor of Jews.  Does anybody other than some
              Jewish people complain about the term "B.C." and insist on
              B.C.E. ?  In my experience Asians dont have a problem with B.C.
              I'm sure the OP will go nuts about my anti-semitism but let me
              say I am Jewish ... I am just talking about a certain flavor of
              Jewish person.
              \_ What? In my experience there are no Jews or non-Jews who have
                 a problem with "BC".  And what does this have to do with Gaza
                 or the price of tea in China or what the moon is made of
                 anyway?  Excuse me while I go look up non-sequiter.  I hope
                 I spelled that right.  And oh, btw, the humidity was hovering
                 about 28% today which is 2.4% below historic norms for this
                 area.
2005/11/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:40745 Activity:nil
11/26   The New Pentagon Papers
        http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/3853
        \_ uh, this is from march 2004
2005/10/20-22 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:40196 Activity:nil
10/20   Are Jews Smarter? Proof and disproof:
        http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/1478
2005/9/14-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39687 Activity:kinda low
9/14    Israeli's pull out of Gaza, now we will see the Palestinians killing
        each other instead of Israelis:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050914/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians
        \_ haha. what losers.
           \_ So some people who have trapped in Gaza are leaving and the
              rest are arming themselves. How does that make them losers?
        \_ As if that was the least of it.  Looters are destroying
           everything, including the greenhouses: http://csua.org/u/de0
           \_ lol, what a bunch of dumasses.
           \_ And desecrating synagogues.  Way to go, religion of peace!
              \_ Red Herring. The PA asked the Isreali govt to remove
                 them, they agreed then at the last minute refused.
                 The Palestinians need the land for other uses, so they
                 have to tear them down.
              \_ I doubt religion has much to do with it ... They've been
                 occupied for decades.
                 occupied for decades.  I'd be burning down the buildings
                 of the occupiers too, especially the ones that are useless.
2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39568 Activity:low
9/8     "100 gunmen stormed Moussa Arafat's four-story family compound in Gaza
        City after exchanging gunfire with his security guards for 30 minutes
        and dragged him in his pajamas to the street, where they shot him."
        link:tinyurl.com/ag9ob (NYTimes)
        \_ Ha ha, doesn't he wish he'd listened to his mom when she told him
           to always wear clean pajamas just in case you're dragged to the
           street and shot by a horde of nutso gunmen!  -John
           \_ John were you scared when you thought ilyas was coming to get you?
              \_ john sleeps in the buff.. so doesn't matter
              \_ No, yermom was there to protect me.  -John
           \_ More to the point, if you have a horde of 100 gunmen dragging
              citizens out of their homes and executing them, you do not have
              a viable state.
              \_ You do realize that lynching was common in the US into the
                 late 1950's. Sure it took fewer gunmen, but whole towns
                 (well, the white part) showed up to watch through the 1930's.
                 \_ You do realize that Gaza City is not the Mississippi
                    backwoods?
                    \_ They're probably more similar than you realize.
                       \_ Given population size, this is much more similar to
                          New York's Five Points in the 1850s.
2005/8/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39349 Activity:nil
8/28    Why were the Israel/Palestine map link and the Bell Curve link
        deleted?  There was good stuff at both links.  Neither link went
        to anything trollish.
        \_ restored but at the end. TROLL.
           \_ I didn't post either link.  In what way are either of them
              trolls?  The Israel/Palestine map link was about how diplomats
              who are so careful with words are so poor with maps which
              requires a different set of skills.  The Bell Curve link is
              a summary refutation of the Bell Curve by someone who actually
              read it.  Unless you think "Israel/Palestine" or "Bell Cuve"
              automagically means "troll", there was nothing trollish in
              either link.  You *did* read the links, right?
2005/8/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39344 Activity:nil
8/30    http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/September-October-2005/feature_motro_sepoct05.msp
        http://redirx.com/?3hc5

        "Some people claim that the Oslo process was deliberately designed to
        segregate Palestinians into isolated enclaves so that Israel could
        continue to occupy the West Bank without the burden of policing its
        people. If so, perhaps the map inadvertently revealed what the
        Israeli wordsmiths worked so diligently to hide. Or perhaps
        Israel's negotiators purposefully emphasized the discontinuity of
        Palestinian areas to appease opposition from the Israeli right,
        knowing full well that Arafat would fly into a rage.

        Neither is true. I know, because I had a hand in producing the
        official Oslo II map, and I had no idea what I was doing." - danh
        \_ Why are you an anti-semite, danh? RACIST.
2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:39269 Activity:low
8/25    Cindy Sheehan equates US to Syria
        http://media.putfile.com/Sheehan_SFSU_Speech                -jblack
        \_ Oh my god, Fox News! Fair and Balanced!
        \_ "It's okay for Israel to occupy Palestine ... and it's okay for ...
           the United States to occupy Iraq, but it's not okay for Syria to be
           in Lebanon?  They're a bunch of fucking hypocrites." April 27, 2005
           My answer:  Israel is in Palestine (right now at least) because
           suicide bombings were popularized in the Israel-Palestine
           conflict.  The U.S. occupies Iraq because we thought they had WMDs
           (they didn't have them when we invaded, and their WMD programs were
           dormant, but despite the fuckup, we're not leaving until things look
           stable).  Syria is occupying Lebanon, but not because they're
           being attacked by suicide bombers or a belief Lebanese have WMDs.
           \_ So, basically, you like our excuses better?
              \_ hey, I said it was a fuckup didn't I?
                 \_ And israel? (that "our" was supposed to be collective)
           \_ what about Guantanamo Bay
              \_ What about it?
           \_ So occupied area fighting back = justification to continue
              occupying.
              \_ Nah, it's just cleaning up your own mess.  You lose points
                 if you're making a bigger mess in the cleanup.
           \_ My answer (and hers, although she's got an unfortunate way of
              putting it): No, it's not okay. And since we're happy to have
              Syria kicked out of Lebanon, we should be happy about the Gaza
              pullout, and we should be making plans to leave Allawi to get
              his own act together.
              \_ Allawi? You're behind the times, dude.
2005/8/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39179 Activity:low
8/19    Hmmm, right-wing columnist writes in favor of the Gaza withdrawl.
        http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/ck20050819.shtml
        \_ Krauthammer is sounding more and more like something out of a
           Kubrick film.
           \_ Mr. President, we must not lose the mine-shaft race!
              \_ You are destroying the humor content by butchering the quote!
                 "Mr. President, we cannot allow a mineshaft gap!"
                    -- General Buck Turgidson
           \_ Just out of curiosity, why?  His historical and political
              are completely sound.  -John
              \_ Were you planning on modifying something with those adjectives?
              \_ Were you planning on modifying something with those
                 adjectives?
                 \_ Yah, seriously.  The suspense is killing me -- John always
                    does that: teases you with interesting adjectives, then
                    leaves it up the reader's imagination to fill in the
                    blanks.  I'm going to be thinking about it all damned day
                    now!  That bastard!            -mice
                 \_ "analyses"? "comments"? "arguments"?
                    \_ "tunafish"? "storms"? "triffids"?
                    \_ "storms"? "tunafish"? "triffids"?
                    \_ "xxxxxxxx"? "storms"? "triffids"?
                        \_ Deleted for national security purposes.  -John
2005/8/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39007 Activity:nil
8/4     Looks like the guy wishing for Isreali suicide bombers is
        going to get his wish afterall!
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050804/ts_nm/mideast_dc
        \_ Duh, just go to freerepublic if you want to read
           "he should have strapped on a bomb instead" type posts
           C'mon, even http://jpost.com is calling him a Jewish terrorist
2005/8/3-5 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38979 Activity:nil
8/3     Another nutty Palestinian:
        http://csua.org/u/cx5 (sfgate)
2005/8/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38951 Activity:nil
8/2     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050802/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians
        Palestinians fire on pissed off Israeli mob. Maybe it's time the
        Israelis start suicide bombing the Palestinians.
        \_ "Militant attacks against Israelis had dropped off after a February
           truce between Israel and the Palestinians. In recent weeks,
           however, as the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza approaches, militants
           have stepped up attacks to try to portray the Israeli pullout as a
           military victory for the Palestinians."
           Dur!
        \_ Why use suicide bombers, when you can just fire rockets from
           a helicopter? The whole story is actually rather amusing,
           in a morbid kind of way.
        \_ The whole story has a great morbid humour to it. Those two sides
           deserve each other.
2005/8/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38909 Activity:nil
8/01    And the JEWS are POISONING your BANANAS!
        http://csua.org/u/cvq
        But I guess it's a step up from learning to kill Jews at summer
        camp:
        http://csua.org/u/cvr
2005/7/29-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38879 Activity:high
7/29    It's the Jews!  It's always the Jews!
        http://www.nysun.com/article/17686
        \_ Where is the motd jew-lover NOW?
           \_ Jewish people should rule the world.
            /\
           //\\                    / ====
      ____//__\\____             / /      \
      \.-//----\\-,/            / /    ___/\__
       \v/      \v/            |  |    \     /
       /\\      //\            |  |     \ /- \
      //_\\____//_\\            \ \     //  \_\
     '----\\--//----`            \ \      /
           \\//                    \ ====
            \/ GOOD                      EVIL
               \_ An argument truly worthy of the motd.
        \_ These guys are no more brainwashed or misinformed than your
           average Fox News viewer. But yes, it is terrible that so many
           are deliberately lied to by the media. This is one of the
           reasons it is so important to come to an equitable resolution
           to the Palestinian-Isreali conflict, so that the Arab governments
           can't use it as a stick to whip up their peoples fury and
           redirect it to Isreal and the United States. Though they
           probably will try anyway...
           are deliberately misinformed by the media.
           \_ Ignoring the blatant troll bait at the beginning, you're out
              of your mind if you think the Arab governments would settle
              for any "equitable resolution."  You completely fail to
              understand the situation if you think they are going for
              anything less than kill all the jews.  Anything other than
              genocide would be considered unfair by these guys.
              \_ Sorry, you are simply wrong. Why did Egypt sign a peace
                 treaty with Isreal if that was the case? Seems like you
                 are as brainwashed as your average Fox News viewer. There
                 treaty with Isreal if that was the case? Seems like there
                 are perhaps one or two countries, like Iran, who still
                 feel that way, but they are in the minority.
                 \_ Seriously, do you read *any* history?  How about the
                    *B*illions of dollars Egypt gets from the US every year
                    as long as they maintain the treaty?  That money allows
                    Egypt to maintain a large and effective military for
                    the region, keeps the dictators swiss bank accounts full
                    and their home/family villages safe.  Too bad the treaty
                    didn't include the Egyptian government newspapers, TV and
                    schools from teaching their people that all their problems
                    are Israel's fault when they're clearly not.
                 \_ When did Iran become Arabic?
                    \_ Point taken.
                 \_ Nuclear weapons, converting even the most persistent
                    wars into hasty peace treaties since 1945.
              \_ It is not really a troll. Just because someone points out
                 an inconvenient fact, that does not make what they say
                 a troll. The point is that governments all over the world,
                 here included, have means of keeping the uneducated hoards
                 in check. The tools are a bit blunter in totalitarian
                 regimes, but if anything, they are even more effective
                 in the democracies.
                 \_ I think your attempt to equate personal freedom,
                    prosperity, and free press with blaming everything on
                    the Jews and shooting any who disagree brilliantly
                    demonstrates the bankruptcy of your argument.  Thanks.
                    \_ I think your unwillingness to admit to the
                       propaganda in your midst demonstrates your
                       narrow simplistic "us vs. them" worldview and
                       is strong evidence of your own brainwashing.
                       Your fear that someone somewhere might be wanting
                       to "blame the jews" and "kill all the jews" shows
                       a definite paranoiac streak as well. Each side
                       uses simplistic sloaganeering, and phrases like
                       "freedom", "motherhood" and "patriotism" to try
                       and whip up hatred toward the "other side" and
                       make them more easily controlled. It is too bad
                       you can't see through it.
                       \_ Uhm, hello?  Read *anything* from the Palestinian
                          side in the last, oh say, 40 years?  They don't
                          pretend that the only fully satisfactory solution
                          is "kill all the jews".  It isn't paranoia when
                          someone is out to get you.
                          \_ Yes, the only solution is to kill all of the
                             savage Arabs.  Only then will the Israeli have
                             his lebensraum.
                             \_ Hi Mr. Strawman!  How's it going back in
                                Rhetoric 10 class?
                          \_  http://csua.org/u/cvi (Isreal government)
                              "The PLO [...]
                              "2. Established the independent state of
                                Palestine and accepted the existence of Israel
                                as a state in the region;
                               "3. Declared its rejection and condemnation of
                                terrorism in all its forms, including state
                                terrorism;
                               Note the date, 1998.
                               \_ That's nice and all but that doesn't jive
                                                                       \_ jibe
                                  with the reality since 1998 and the PLO
                                  sure as hell doesn't control or represent
                                  all the other groups such as Hamas who have
                                  never said anything but "kill all the jews".
                                  They could've written a statement that said
                                  the moon is made of cheese but that wouldn't
                                  make the moon into cheese.
                \_ I don't think critical thinking and independent thought
                   will ever be a "bankrupt ideology" but you are welcome
                   to believe that. And yes, the relative lack of a free
                   press in Egypt is dastardly. And yes, if forced to chose
                   sides, I would line up with what you un-ironically call
                   the side of "personal freedom, prosperity and [the]
                   free press." But you know what? I don't have to chose
                   sides. I can stand at the sidelines and mock both of
                   you for acting like Jr. High school children instead
                   of real adults. Grow up and learn to settle your
                   differences without resorting to demonizing the
                   other side and with minimal violence.
                   \_ The real irony here is that you claim mocking both
                      sides is somehow more mature that pointing out what
                      some bad people are doing and saying "That's bad."
                      This coupled, once again, with the "Kill all the
                      Arabs" strawman.  I think all can see who is acting
                      like a Jr. High school student here.
                      \_ I am not the author of the "kill all the Arabs"
                         strawman. But to be honest, it is not much more
                         of a strawman, than the "kill all Jews" one. Do
                         I really need to dig out the quote where a US
                         Congressman advocates nuking Mecca? The point is
                         that you are both idiots and I am pointing out
                         both of your idiocy. And yes, mocking people is
                         pretty much always more mature than killing them.
                         \_ Well, I have no real way to respond to this
                            series of strawmen and red herrings.  How
                            could I make you look sillier than you already
                            do?  I guess I'll throw out that to my reading
                            the congressman did not advocate nuking Mecca,
                            series of strawmen and red herrings.  Try
                            actually reading what people write, rather
                            than what you wish they had written. I guess
                            I'll throw out that to my reading the
                            congressman did not advocate nuking Mecca,
                            he hypothesised that the threat of nuking
                            Mecca might be a way of detering Islamic
                            terrorists for a nuclear attack on the US.  I
                            don't know that it is, myself. I guess you
                            could dig it out and re-read it yourself, but
                            it's pretty obvious that reading comprehesion
                            is not your strong suit.
2005/7/26-27 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38829 Activity:nil
7/26    So what do ppl think re: NASA?
        1) Stick with shuttle program?
        2) Scrap the shuttle, move to the next type of launch vehicle
        3) We should build a moon base
        4) Manned-Mars Ho!
        5) IIS - make it an orbital station for whatever launch vehicle
           we choose for (2).
        \_ Can't do #3 or #4 without #2. #1 is stupid. Therefore, #2.
           \_ Agreed.  -mice
                \_ We have to go ask our asian lenders for more lunch money
                   because we already spent our allowance for the next 5
                   centuries on the Iraq invasion.
                   \_ Nah -- we just allocate some of that money for starting
                      a war with our debtors, then after bombing them back
                      into the Third Age, we rebuild their country with
                      Americanized values and declare them either the 51st
                      state, or a 'Protectorate' with symbolic representation
                      in the senate.
        \_ Scrap NASA and start over, imo.  This gold-plating and closed
           competition between Lockheed and Boeing has to stop. -- ilyas
           \- A nice line I heard was "pentagon procurement is one of the
              last bastions of stalinism". where in russia are you from?
              \_ Odessa.  Interestingly, Odessa is considered the 'city of
                 humor' in Russia.  It was a largely jewish city, and there
                 is a 'certain culture' to it.  It's a lot like a russian
                 version of San Francisco, I would say. -- ilyas
                 \_ here's some pics: http://www.sergeyv.com  --!ilyas
                 \_ So let me get this right. You're not a Jew, but you're
                    almost a Jew because of exposure with Jews? If that's
                    the case, I will start respecting you a bit.
                                -not a jew but totally worship them
                    \_ I am not russian either.  I have no nation.  You would
                       be interested to know that during the formation of the
                       state of Israel, they considered anybody who considered
                       themselves a Jew to be a Jew (for the purposes of
                       immigration). -- ilyas
                       \_ In other words, you too can be a Jew, Jew
                          worshipper guy!
2005/7/18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38690 Activity:kinda low
7/18    I used to have a lot of rachmones, bubbala for ilyas because I
        thought he was a maven Russian Jew. Then I found out that he was
        just a Russian, WTF? Oy yoy yoy, hok a chainik. How kvetch. I feel
        fermisht, fershlugina. Meeskait ilyas fershtinkiner faygala gonif
        momzer, gai avek nebbish nudnik.
        \_ I think it's the Heil German John guy.
        \_ http://www.sbjf.org/sbjco/schmaltz/yiddish_phrases.htm
        \_ Ya i nye russkiy tozhe, mudak ty nye rezaniy. -- ilyas
           \_ what location in Russia re you from?
2005/7/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38688 Activity:nil 50%like:38680
7/18    DEAR JEWISH D00DZ ON MOTD! I TODALLY ADM1RE UR CULTURE, IM
        NOT A JEW SO A LOT UV THINGZ ARE SKREWED UP 1N MY FAMILY.
        MY FAMILY 1Z P00R, LA1K, MY PARENTZ ARE SPLIT, LA1K, MY DAD IZ
        ANALCOHOL1C + I DONT GET ALONG WITH MY DRUG ADD1CT BROTHUR. HOWEVUR I
        ALSO CONSIDUR MYSELF 2 B PRETTY LUCKY BECAUSE 1M THE FIRST IN MY FAM1LY
        2 GO 2 COLEGE + I GOT LOANZ THAT COVUR A MAJORITY UV MY
        EXPENSES, LA1K, THE REST 1 COVUR BY WORKING PART TIME HEAR + THEY'RE.
        1VE ALWAYZ SAID 2 MYSELF THAT IF 1 EVUR START A FAMILY UV MY OWN
        ID MAKE 1T A LOT BETTUR. ID MODEL MY FAMILY AFTUR K00L JEW1SH
        FAMILIES, 1 WANNA B AZ JEW AZ POSSIBLE, WHAT CAN I DO TO
        GET MORE EXPOSHUR 2 JEW1SH FAMILIES?!?1?!? CAN 1 GET ADOPTED, LA1K, OR
        B A NU CONVURT?!?1?!? I ADMIRE U, LA1K, + 1 WANT IN! I AM NOT
        TROL1NG, LA1K, IM BEING SUR1OUS,              -JEWORSHIPPUR
        \_ Hey, what about us Chinese?
           \_ Marry Connie Chung.  You get the best of both worlds.
        \_ You are trolling.
2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38680 Activity:low 50%like:38688
7/18    Dear Jewish people on motd. I totally admire your culture. I'm
        not a Jew so a lot of things are screwed up in my family.
        My family is poor, my parents are split, my dad is an alcoholic
        and I don't get along with my drug addict brother. However I also
        consider myself to be pretty lucky because I'm the first in my family
        to go to college and I have loans that cover a majority of my
        expenses, the rest I cover by working part time here and there.
        I've always said to myself that if I ever start a family of my own
        I'd make it a lot better. I'd model my family after good Jewish
        families. I want to be as Jew as possible. What can I do to
        get more exposure to Jewish families? Can I get adopted, or
        be a new convert? I admire you, and I want in. I am not
        trolling, I'm being serious.              -Jeworshipper
        \_ BTW, is Jewish family culture better than Chinese family culture?
        \_ Check out Hillel. Don't expect them to be too welcoming at
           first, but if you are serious you can convert. Expect to
           have to learn Hebrew.
           \- Just change your name to Cohen or Levi and tell people
              you are a Jew.
              you are Jewish.
           \_ "Hello, my name is John Doestein."
2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38590 Activity:low
7/13    Those of you who are interested in the Gaza Strip/Israeli conflict,
        here is an excellent site that shows you detailed information:
        http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/gazastrip.html
        http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_1999.jpg
        FYI I got interested after the CNN article that says Israel is
        closing Gaza Strip to 8000 resident, also home to 1.3 million
        Palestinians. Before this I had no idea where and how big Gaza
        Strip was and what the 6 Day War entailed. I can't believe how
        much conflict can exist in a country that is [officially] barely 10
        miles wide, and 40 miles wide if you count West Bank.
        \_ Try reading the Old Testament Bible sometime.
        \_ The northern and the southern parts are much wider than 10 miles.
        \_ The northern and the southern parts are wider than 10 miles.
           http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
        \_ Remember what the French ambassador to England said: "this
           international crisis causes by that shitty little country
           Israel" -- it is amazing how a country so small with so few
           people can cause so many problems.  I guess we have all the
           major world religions to thank for that, parking so many
           holy sites on top of one another there ...
           \_ "caused by that shitty little country, indeed."  Ivory Coast,
              Rwanda/Burundi, WWII (yes), Vietnam, and I guess he's not heard
              of the Sykes-Picot agreement or the Suez crisis.  The phrase
              "you French twit" comes to mind.  -John
2005/7/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38463 Activity:nil
7/7     AP reported that Netanyahu was warned about the bombings.  The Israeli
        government denies it.  Who's running the AP?
        http://csua.org/u/cml
        http://csua.org/u/cmm
        \_ Whatever this persons's posting method is completely evades kchang's
           scripts.
2005/6/30-7/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38374 Activity:kinda low
6/30     Apparently, Spielberg's "War of the Worlds" sucks.
           \_ I haven't seen a single Spielberg movie I didn't like. In fact
              I haven't seen a single Jew-made production I didn't like.
              You want proof that the Jews are better? Just turn on TV.
              All the intelligent, funny, and likeable commentators, comedians,
              writers, and producers are Jews. I wish I were a Jew.
                                   -Not a Jew but TOTALLY worship them
            \_ why not move to israel?
               \_ suicide bombers
                  \_ Which are statistically less dangerous than driving in the
                     U.S.
            \_ The motd racist idiot is back, yay!
           \_ you should explain why it sucks
            \_ I haven't seen it.  I've just heard/read a buch of reviews,
               and every single one panned it. I'm just a little
                 disappointed.  Here's ebert:
               http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050628/REVIEWS/50606007
               \_ you got to give ebert nerd points for picking it apart for
                  lack of plausibility, and lines like "Three legs are
                  inherently not stable"
                \_ Uh.  Tripods are most stable on any varying surface.  They're
                   not redundant, but they are definitely stable.
                   Now, if they're walking, three is inconvenient, but not
                   necessarily improbable.
                   \_ Yeah, I think the core of his argument is that it's less
                      realistic than Independence Day, and he's fucking pissed!
                   \_ Three legs walking are more than inconvenient.  They just
                      don't work.  John Christopher addressed this in his
                      Tripods books.  He explained that they rotated as they
                      walked.
           \_ Huh?  Most of the reviews I saw were favorable. (NY Times, Chron)
              -dans
            \_ Huh, you're right, LATIMES liked it..
               \_ Yes, and the Washington Post loved it
           \_ 72% sucks?
            http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/war_of_the_worlds
           \_ I think I would dislike this movie so I will skip it. It seems
              pretty stupid. And I don't really care for Cruise. And Spielberg's
              stuff, well usually it's good but usually also annoys me in other
              ways like having smarmy overly-sentimental scenes.
        \_ I haven't seen a single Spielberg movie I didn't like. In fact
           I haven't seen a single Jew-made production I didn't like.
           You want proof that the Jews are better? Just turn on TV.
           All the intelligent, funny, and likeable commentators, comedians,
           writers, and producers are Jews. I wish I were a Jew.
                                -Not a Jew but TOTALLY worship them
           \_ why not move to israel?
              \_ suicide bombers
                 \_ Which are statistically less dangerous than driving in the
                    U.S.
           \_ The motd racist idiot is back, yay!
        \_ you should explain why it sucks
           \_ I haven't seen it.  I've just heard/read a buch of reviews,
              and every single one panned it. I'm just a little
              disappointed.  Here's ebert:
              http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050628/REVIEWS/50606007
            \_ you got to give ebert nerd points for picking it apart for
               lack of plausibility, and lines like "Three legs are
               inherently not stable"
               \_ Uh.  Tripods are most stable on any varying surface.  They're
                  not redundant, but they are definitely stable.
                  Now, if they're walking, three is inconvenient, but not
                  necessarily improbable.
                  \_ Yeah, I think the core of his argument is that it's less
                     realistic than Independence Day, and he's fucking pissed!
                  \_ Three legs walking are more than inconvenient.  They just
                     don't work.  John Christopher addressed this in his
                     Tripods books.  He explained that they rotated as they
                     walked.
        \_ Huh?  Most of the reviews I saw were favorable. (NY Times, Chron)
           -dans
           \_ Huh, you're right, LATIMES liked it..
              \_ Yes, and the Washington Post loved it
        \_ 72% sucks?
           http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/war_of_the_worlds
        \_ I think I would dislike this movie so I will skip it. It seems
           pretty stupid. And I don't really care for Cruise. And Spielberg's
           stuff, well usually it's good but usually also annoys me in other
           ways like having smarmy overly-sentimental scenes.
2005/6/28-29 [Academia/GradSchool, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38347 Activity:nil
6/28    Well, I have to admit.  This is the first I've heard of the trial
        http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11044
        \_ Wow, U. of South Florida College of Engineering Outstanding
           Teaching Award in '93?  Why don't we have wiretaps on Brian
           "potsticker" Harvey?
2005/6/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38231 Activity:nil
6/21    Show me the love, Palestine:
        http://csua.org/u/cgd (jpost)
        \_ "Another Gaza resident responded: "May God protect us against such
           weird and dangerous ideas. The next thing we will hear is that we
           need a party for gays and lesbians."
           In America we call people who think this way "Republicans."  Maybe
           Bill Frist should run for president of Palestine.
2005/6/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38104 Activity:nil
6/13    When is treason not treason? When you are selling out your
        country to AIPAC, I guess:
        http://csua.org/u/ccb
        \_ Moonie Times Op-Ed link above.
2005/6/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38064 Activity:nil
6/9     The next generation of RealDoll(tm)
        http://csua.org/u/cb7 (Yahoo! News Photos, work-safe)
        \_ I like girls of that ... caliber
        \_ Do they call it the Replicant I?
        \_ Do they call it the Nexus I?
2005/6/9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38061 Activity:nil
6/9     Robots on Yahoo! News Photos:
        http://csua.org/u/cb7
        Looks much more realistic than RealDoll(tm).
2005/6/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37972 Activity:high
6/4     Regarding yesterday's racist remark on how wealthy and smart Jewish
        people are, I will reiterate again that it is just my opinion, as a
        non-Jew, that they are one of the wisest and sensible people in the
        world. In fact, I think United States would be much better if the
        government is run by Jews. That is because Jews are more likely to
        use diplomacy rather than Shock & Awe, Bolton bullying, and
        intimidation. They're also more likely to have earned their college
        degrees without their daddy's influence. Most of them think clearly
        and thus don't have speech impediments. Most of them are modest,
        unlike people who say they've made no mistakes. They're also sensible
        and are less likely to divise people into two camps-- one for you,
        one against you. Lastly, Jews are less likely to impose their
        Religious beliefs such as pro-life/pro-choice on you. Since they
        know what it is like to be suppressed by the other race, they have
        a lot of understanding and compassion for people who are different,
        be it people with alternative and diverse lifestyles, or just
        minorities in general. I hope one day, they take over our Red Neck
        White Trash Christian Nation and make United States better for
        Americans and less of a threat to everyone else. Shalom, and
        Bless Jews.                     -Troller. Not a Jew, But Worship Them
        \_ I'm stunned that no one else has yet said this is the most racist
           drivel the motd has seen in quite a while.  Please tell us that
           when you signed as "Troller." you were telling us flat out that
           this racist diatribe really is a troll and we weren't all supposed
           to respond seriously like everyone below has done.
           \_ I don't know if I would call the below responses "serious."
              A few were tounge-in-cheek, and most were on a different,
              although related, subject.
        \_ Average IQ in Israel is actually pretty low:
           http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm   (IQ and the Wealth of Nations)
           \_ its probably just being dragged down by them dirty palestinians
        \_ Man, you should post this on the MSA website.
           \-1. as with the sikhs, i think people assume there are more of
                then then there are. small populations have have higher
                variances from the mean than large ones.
             2. there are some big selection factors, as well, looking at
                an immigrant group. for example if you judge indians you
                meet here a lot of them seem reasonably intelligent ... you
                dont meet a lot of indians who couldnt tell you what 15% of
                100 is. but it turns out if you go to india, you discover
                there are a lot of dumb indians. similarly whatever you say
                about jews here, the population metrics are likely to be pretty
                different when you are talking about israelis. having met a
                large number of israelis while traveling, they are the biggest
                assholes [followed probably by indians ... this is actually
                sort of interesting and there are some statistical explanations
                but i'll leave it at that].
                \_ If an American Jew is a fanatical asshole about religion,
                   they typically will want to go to Israel as much as
                   possible and will often move there and become citizens.
                   The town I'm from (in the U.S.) had a lot of these people.
                   When a Christian decides to be a fundamentallist asshole,
                   they do it right here, but among jews there's a filter that
                   tends to send the extremists to Israel and keep the more
                   decent folk here.
                \_ I find Chinese to be greater assholes while traveling
                   abroad than Indians, but only marginally so. What is it
                   about the eastern mind that makes people inconsiderate
                   jerks?
                   \_ Nothing--just that some cultures bring out the fact that
                      people are assholes more than others through learned
                      traits (so, assuming you get the same % of assholes per
                      culture, your Englishman will seem treacherous and
                      passive-aggressive, French=arrogant, German=loud &
                      boorish, American=loud & obnoxious, Russian=pushy,
                      Chinese=rude & self-centered, etc.)  -John
                   \_ Just a thought, but perhaps all these people who have
                      immigrated to the US have adapted to our social norms,
                      whereas when you are traveling abroad, you have probably
                      not adapted to their social norms.
                         \_ I'm often told that people in X country
                            are racist and don't like foreigners by
                            Chinese and Indians, but the problem
                            that I have with this is that I often
                            notice the same Chinese and Indians
                            tourists acting like complete jerks when
                            they are abroad.
                            I don't know who many times I've had to
                            stand in line behind some Chinese or
                            Indian having it out with the hotel staff
                            or a ticket agent over something trivial.
                            (It is worse when I have to stand behind
                            and Indian b/c I'm invariably viewed w/
                            distrust and am stuck apologizing for
                            the rude behavior).
                            I almost never see non-asian tourists do
                            things like take photos where they are
                            not permitted, walk accross lawns &c.
                            that are being repaired, spitting in
                            inappropriate places, yelling, &c.
                            Perhaps I am not in tune w/ their culture
                            but any culture that breeds disrespect
                            for your fellow man (esp. when you are a
                            guest in their country) is on that I don't
                            want to be in tune w/.
                            \- once again, a partial answer:
                            \- once again, i think i have a partial answer:
                               a lot of the indians going to a place like the
                               middle east are "lower class" persons, like
                               people with domestic or labor jobs. lower
                               class americans ... the type that chew and
                               spit tobacco dont leave the country. you go
                               to a mcdonalds in oakland and you see some
                               pretty amazing behavior.
                               note also that in some countries retail
                               establishments are mostly small proprietorships
                               and this means 1. you can bargain about prices
                               [and there are rude and non-rude ways of doing
                               this] 2. there are usually not hassle-free
                               returns, so sometimes you have to be a little
                               nasty ... and when it comes to small things,
                               it a matter of not being the bitch than the
                               money.
                      \- in the case of some indians, these are the servant-
                         owning class, so often they will treat people like
                         their mountaineering guides as their servants,
                         like "hey bring me my cigarettes". they are also
                         cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. it's one thing
                         to say "oh may be they dont think it is rude to
                         chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to say "in their
                         culture it is perfectly reasonable to yell across
                         the hotel atrium to your friends at 2am". a lot of
                         the chinese people i meet travelling in the backwaters
                         of asia are travelling solo and people [including
                         israelis] are less jerk-like solo. part of the
                         biasing factor in the israeli case is they are often
                         younger people who are looking to party on the cheap.
                         you cant relly compare a post-college american who
                         goes to france to see some culture and a dutch
                         teen ager who heads down to paris to carouse.
                         cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. [these are why
                         usually i am one of the two chiefs of labor nego-
                         tiations with the climbing staff: i look after them
                         more and i am a better tipper]. re: social norms:
                         it's one thing to say "oh maybe they dont think it
                         is rude to chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to
                         say "in their culture it is perfectly reasonable to
                         yell across the hotel atrium to your friends at
                         2am". a lot of the chinese people i meet travelling
                         in the backwaters of asia are travelling solo and
                         people [including israelis] are less jerk-like
                         solo. part of the biasing factor in the israeli case
                         is they are often younger people who are looking to
                         party on the cheap.  you cant relly compare a
                         post-college american who goes to france to see some
                         culture and a dutch teen ager who heads down to paris
                         to carouse.
                         \_ I live in an apartment building full of white
                            frat boys who consider it acceptable to yell
                            across the courtyard to their friends at 2am.
                            My German upstairs neighbors have ear-shattering
                            parties at 4am sometimes.  Are those cultural too?
                              -- ilyas
                              \- i'm talking about quite specific contexts.
                                 like austriains in bali are likely to be
                                 loud partiers. australians you meet crossing
                                 the thorung la pass arent likely to be loud
                                 and obnoxious ... nit that week anyway.
                                 and there are some valid generalization and
                                 they have explanations beyond "people from X
                                 are just that way" ... like the servant class
                                 example.
                            \_ It is not cultural that Cantonese speakers talk
                               louder than Mandarin speakers. It is a fact well
                               accepted by most Chinese. As for parties at 4AM,
                               that's a tough one. Maybe your German friends
                               learned it from Caucasian frat boys, who knows.
                               Speaking of Caucasian frat boys, I also hear
                               them yelling and breaking beer glass bottles
                               till 3AM 1/2 mile from Gayley. Fucking annoying
                               jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural.
                               jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural. Also,
                               definitely more of a UCLA thing than a Cal thing
                                \- Harbhajan Singh, On what he was discussing
                                   with Younis Khan: Oh, it wasn't a heated
                                   conversation. But you know, we were
                                   speaking in Punjabi, and Punjabi is such a
                                   language that even when you have a normal
                                   conversatiion in it, it sounds heated.
                               \_ I've seen many drunk, stupid frat boys
                                  pissing behind dumpsters and on street
                                  corners in my years of living near college
                                  campuses.  I would like to point out however
                                  that the *only* time I've seen a drunk
                                  stupid frat boy atually pissing *on* the
                                  porch of his own frat house was at the Yale
                                  DKE house.  Future presidents indeed.
                            \_ Re Germans, I used to work w/ a German guy and
                               he was always surprised when the neighbors
                               complained about his loud late night parties.
                               Apparently in Berlin the action doesn't start
                               until after midnight at the earliest.
                               \_ Zese are ze irresponsible chermans.  Se real
                                  Chermans are up at 6 in ze mornink, varmink
                                  up ze panzers for ze little hangover trip to
                                  POLAND, ha ha!  -John
                               Re Frat Boys, They are just obnoxious youth,
                               which are found EVERYWHERE.  In Dublin almost
                               all of the late night party/noise was from
                               kids getting drunk at pubs.
        \_ I don't know any world leader who have all the combined attributes
           of not prefering diplomacy, have a speech impediment, is not modest,
           AND imposes his/her belief on you. To whom are you refering to???
2005/6/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37958 Activity:kinda low
6/3     Connie Chung is a Jew?
        http://www.nndb.com/people/756/000024684
        \_ "Is Jewish" is the phrase you probably want to use.
                \_ why? just curious.
           \_ You're dumb.
        \_ She married a Jew, so (like it says at the bottom) she
           converted to Judaism.
        \_ mmm....Jewish Korean American princess.  Is that double
           the maintenance?  *bwahaha*
           \_ Page says she's chinese, not korean.  Does that make you a
              racist?
              \_ God damned right!  I am a racist!  Korean American Princesses
                 are so high-maintenance, it's a wonder anyone marries them
                 at all.  I have no idea how high-maintenance Chinese American
                 Princesses are or if such a concept exists.
                 \_ Was your Korean gf high-maintenance, sky?
2005/6/2-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Domestic/HateGroups] UID:37948 Activity:high
6/2     http://tinyurl.com/cdksf
        Average Asian boy IQ=118, average Asian girl IQ=110,
        average Caucasian boy IQ=108, average Caucasian girl IQ=100.
        What about Blond Caucasian girl IQ and non-Blond Caucasian girl?
        You know, like, they totally need to redo this test, like, totally!
        \_ "Did the "liberals" in education [read: jews]..." are you the
           same guy as below?
        \_ Standarad Deviation?  That's pretty important here.
        \_ So men are smarter than women?
        \_ Berkeley ranks top along with MIT! Rejoice!  We're all winners!!!
           FYI some of the Bell Curve reviews at http://Amazon.com are hilarious!
           "Them damn Asians are spoiling my KKK world order!"
           http://csua.org/u/c9b
           \_ If that's the sort of thing you find entertaining, you may find
              this amusing: http://csua.org/u/c9c Amazon reviews of Wolfram's
              book.
           \- helo there is an article about smart ashkanazim in this
              week's e'ist.
        \_ All you people who commented, should look at the URL.  It is so
           overtly racist that I find it hard to credit their "facts":
           I suspect they've been twisted somewhat to suit an agenda.
           \_ Dude it's so overtly racist that "twisted somewhat" is
              giving it way more credit than it deserves.  To the person
              who posted this I sure as hell hope you are a troll, which
              just makes you mostly a pathetic excuse for a person.
2005/5/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37830 Activity:moderate
5/25    Help rebuild the Gaza home that Rachel Corrie gave her life to defend.
        Our special guests:
        Cindy and Craig Corrie - Rachel's parents
        Samah and Khaled Nasrallah - The Palestinian family whose home
        Rachel was trying to protect
        Friday, June 10
        7:30 p.m.
        First Presbyterian Church
        1140 Cowper Street, Palo Alto
        $10 - $20 sliding scale - Wheelchair accessible
        A portion of the proceeds from this event will be used to rebuild the
        Nasrallah Family's home, then the next home and the next in Gaza,
        where 3100 Palestinian homes have been demolished.
                                \_ The report also states that the army had\
                                   not, in fact, intended to demolish a house,
                                   but was searching for explosives in the
                                   border area designated a security zone or
                                   "no man's land" by Israel. No houses were
                                   demolished on the day of Corrie's death,
                                   but one of the houses she believed she was
                                   protecting the home of pharmacist Dr.
                                   Samid Nasrallah was damaged six months
                                   later when the IDF knocked a hole in
                                   one of its walls. The IDF eventually
                                   demolished the house in January 2004,
                                   according to the charity Rebuilding
                                   Alliance, because it stood in the security
                                   zone.
                                   No tunnel. It was simply in the "security
                                   zone." The whole tunnel defence is merely
                                   a lie the apologists made up after the fact.
        \_ Minor language point: I'd say she "lost" her life. She didn't
           really intend to give it up.
        \_ Why would anyone want to donate to a people who actively resent
           the U.S.? I don't get it. If they want to get the U.S. out of
           the Mid-East, why would they take our money? That's like giving
           a quarter to a bum and having him spit in your face in return.
           \_ "I" am not "the U.S". So the analogy does not hold.
              \_ So you are not part of the U.S.? What else are you not part
                 of, the species Homo Sapiens? What the hell...
                 \_ I live in the U.S., but I'm not responsible for U.S.
                    middle east policy and in many cases I disagree with it
                    and understand some of the resentment. I don't apply
                    judgement based only on set membership. I don't judge
                    all Palestinians the same either as you appear to do.
           \_ When I visited there, people seemed pretty nice to me and
              a couple of complete strangers invited me into their homes
              to eat after just a few minutes of conversation. "They" might
              not like the U.S. but they liked me just fine. The U.S.
              does a pretty piss poor job of representing me throughout
              the world, to tell you the truth, especially these last
              five years.
        \_ Will it include a tunnel for smuggling weapons?  You know, just to
           be accurate.
           \_ No tunnel was ever found under Nasrallah's home or ever even
              accused of being there:
              http://rafahpundits.com/2005/03/from-the-nasrallahs
              http://csua.org/u/c6m
              \_ Yeah, a few blogs really prove anything.  Checking for stories
                 in the past, I can't find anything reliable which states there
                 was a tunnel or not.
                 \_ link:tinyurl.com/cww2a is a link to an editorial in the
                    Jerusalem post that claims there were no tunnels found
                    under the home that was about to be bulldozed.  I find it
                    interesting that the IDF didn't finish bulldozing the house
                    until 6 months after Corrie's death (according to the
                    article). - danh
                    \_ Learn to format to 80 cols danh.
                    \_ "Today, March 16, marks the one-year anniversary of the
                       killing of our friend and colleague Rachel Corrie."
                       That sounds like a real unbiased source.
                        \_ hey i did hunt around a lot, and I couldn't find
                           anything authoritative that claimed that
                           there was a nest of palestinian weapon smuggling
                           tunnels under the house, I also think the IDF's
                           policy of bulldozing orchards and houses just
                           creates more problems later. - danh
                       \_ You're the one who claimed they would need a
                          smuggling tunnel to be accurate.  How 'bout you put
                          up some evidence that that's true.  Or how 'bout you
                          just fuck off.
                          \_ Yeah, this is pretty funny, they are trying
                             to get you to prove a negative.
                             \_ The IDF said there was a tunnel.  There has
                                been no credible rebuttal.
                                \_ Because they're SO unbiased...
                                   \_ Didn't say they were unbiased, but
                                      they're the ones who would say why they
                                      were performing the operation.  If
                                      someone's going to say there's no tunnel,
                                      it'd be nice if they'd say how they know
                                      that.
                                      \_ Do you have a like for the IDF
                                      \_ Do you have a link for the IDF
                                         statement?
                                         \_ Yeah, their penis is so big and
                                            foreskin free.
                                \_ No, the IDF never said that. You are just
                                   making shit up to try and make yourself
                                   feel better.
                 \_ "Don't believe the news, it's controlled by Jews!"
                    -Berkeley protesters. (no joke)
        \_ did she get a Darwin award for this one?
        \_ Person vs. Bulldozer.
           \_ Cf. Person vs. Tank, Tiananman Square, 6/4/89.
                                   \_ If you stfw for "corrie +idf +tunnel"
                                      you'll be hard-pressed to find anything
                                      that even remotely purports to not be
                                      a propaganda site (pro- or anti-Israeli)
                                      albeit one that isn't really worthwhile
                                      claims the Israeli consul to SF said
                                      the IDF were engaged in clearing bushes
                                      used to cover tunnels.  Whatever;
                                      running people over with bulldozers is
                                      bad, standing in front of bulldozers is
                                      stupid.  -John
                                      \_ it worked for Arthur Dent!
                 \_ "Don't believe the news, it's controlled by Jews!"
                    -Berkeley protesters. (no joke)
        \_ did she get a Darwin award for this one?
        \_ Person vs. Bulldozer.
           \_ Cf. Person vs. Tank, Tiananman Square, 6/4/89.
                                         \_ Actually, his house didn't make it
                                            either.
                                         \_ If not for froody Ford Prefect
                                            Arthur would have been flattened.
                                            \_ He would have been vaporized
                                               before he got a chance to be
                                               flattened.
                                      \_ Some people have tried to claim
                                         that the building demolishment was
                                         part of an IDF tunnel clearing
                                         program. Perhaps that is true,
                                         in any case, no tunnel was ever
                                         found underneath or near the house
                                         she was trying to protect.
        \_ I can't believe no one has tried to troll this post.
           \_ I can't believe you weren't awake yesterday. This post
              had a big followup to it yesterday. I guess the MOTD censor
              trimmed it all. FYI, contributing to middle east causes may
              be dangerous to your potential status as a U.S. citizen. If
              you are a green card holder be careful about what you donate
              to.
              \_ Just give cash.
        \_ Why would you give money to people who hate America? Only George
           Bush is allowed to do that.
2005/4/1-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37036 Activity:nil
4/1     How come Palestinians want luxury homes demolished? Do they have
        plans to build grass huts on the same land?
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4401921.stm
        \_ I don't know, this sounds right in line with their usual
           antics.  They're more interested in hurting the Isrealis in
           any petty way possible (including a measly $20 mil demolition
           fee) than they are in helping their own people.
        \_ What a scam. The settlers got paid money to move to Gaza, free
           luxury homes paid for by US tax dollars, and now they are getting
           paid 1/4M (or is it 1/2M now) to move.
2005/3/28-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36924 Activity:nil
3/28    Are the Settlers nuts enough to really start a civil war?
        http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050328/1/3rhs6.html
2005/3/27-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Recreation/Sports] UID:36907 Activity:nil
3/27    This is just wacked.  "A Dutch Soccer Riddle: Jewish Regalia Without
        Jews".  http://csua.org/u/bi9
2005/3/21-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36789 Activity:nil
3/21    GNOME/Mono dude visits Lebanon refugee camps:
        http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2005/Mar-18.html
        \_ In case you are not familiar with Robert Fisk, here's an
           (admittedly adversarial, having been written by a pro-Israel
           watchdog) introduction:
           http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Dishonest_Reporting_-Award-_for_2001.asp#fisk
2005/3/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36736 Activity:moderate
3/17    http://csua.org/u/bem [seattlepi]
        So, it turns out idiocy is genetic. Rachel Corrie's parents suing
        Caterpillar because apparently IDF's use of bulldozers to uncover
        weapons smuggling tunnels (which is specifically what they were
        doing when Rachel decided to kill herself with one) is not only
        a human rights violation, but also somehow Caterpillar's problem.
        (Whoever is censoring this: what's your problem?)
        5A
        \_ Maybe their problem is that you're a callous asshat?
           \_ Really now? So I should empathize with someone who in her
              self-righteousness jumps (literally) in the way of a country's
              attempt to keep terrorists from murdering its citizens?
              Interesting.
              \_ Hi troll.  Have you ever lost a family member?
                 \_ Yes. And up until today, I had a lot of sympathy for her
                    parents. Now that they're _clearly_ abusing their own
                    daughter's death to further a political agenda (note
                    that the suit complains about "human rights" specifically),
                    whatever sympathy I had for them is gone. -op
                 \_ They're not suing the Israelis.  They're suing the
                    BULLDOZER MANUFACTURER.  Think.  Think.  Think.  -John
              \_ She was stopping a country's attempt to bulldoze houses.
                 Houses in an area occupied by said country's army.
                 \_ ...Which they long since would not have been had the locals
                    not been consistently attacking said country, using weapons
                    smuggled through tunnels with exits inside these very
                    houses. Which part of "necessary defense against guerilla
                    warfare" do you not understand?
                    \_ Except that's BS and Israel stopped doing it because it
                       was BS.
                       \_ Where's your proof that it was BS? I have tons of
                          proof that is NOT BS. If you want proof that it's
                          NOT BS all you have to do is go to the various
                          cemetaries of the victims of suicide bombings.
                          \_ There's actually a big difference between proof
                             and sensationalism.  You've shown that you're
                             very good with the latter...now, can you settle
                             down and provide substantive information?
                          \_Uh, that's not proof of what you are claiming.
                \- I've never been accused of being a Zionist but I
                   also think this is stupid. I assume this is an attempt
                   to keep the story/issue in the next rather than shakedown
                   the Caterpillar Corp, but still ...
        \_ Pity they didn't repost Corrie's picture.  She was pretty cute.
           \_ http://images.google.com
        \_ Actually IDF is using those bulldozers for wiping out the
           houses of the relatives of the suicide bombers. In addition,
           they were used to destroy any buildings that posed a threat
           to Israeli settlers or military. Rachel Corrie's blog seemed
           to suggest that those bulldozers were being used quite
           indiscriminately.
           \_ Even if that's true I have a pretty hard time blaming Cat.
              \_ Isn't suing CAT the equivalent to suing Smith & Wesson
                 for a murder, which as long since proven unsubstantiated?
              \_ Suing CAT might or might not be stupud. I was just correcting
                 op's sensationalist reporting about the role of CAT bulldozers
                 in IDF.
        \_ I haven't read the pleadings but I'm guessing that they are
           suing Cat on a tort theory of strict product liability alleging
           that Cat breached their duty to provide a non-defective prod
           in its reasonably foreseeable use and this caused her death.
           If I were them I would allege a design defect arguing that
           the placement of the armor, &c. created an excessively dangerous
           product and that the danger was preventable.  Her family
           could point out that b/c the driver couldn't see people
           well, he could easily drive over ppl and that the likelihood
           of that happening was pretty high.  You'd have to come up
           with some feasible alternatives.  An alternative would be
           to argue that the bulldozer is per se unreasonably dangerous.
           If they are going under this type of tort theory, the problem
           will really be assumption of the risk and/or comparative fault.
           Even if the ct finds that she didn't assume the risk of death
           by running in front of a bulldozer, she was likely negligent
           in running in front of the bulldozer, thus any recovery will
           be offset by her level of negligence, which in this case is
           quite high.
           NOTE: I would not have brought such a claim.
           \_ Does cat even put the armor on the bulldozers?  I thought the
              IDF bolted the stuff on after-market.  "Caterpillar Inc. does
              not manufacture a military version of the D9 per se..."
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Caterpillar_D9  -John
              \_ Well, that's about the evilest looking bulldozer I ever
                 saw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:D9-idf_pic214.jpg
              \_ I assumed that Cat put the armor on for the IDF. If
                 Cat did not put the armor on for the IDF, it will be
                 harder to bring a strict products liability claim.
                 However it may still be possible if they allege that
                 the modification was foreseeable b/c Cat sold it to
                 the IDF knowing it would be modified.
2005/3/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36513 Activity:moderate
3/3     The top post is awesome
        http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog
        \_ Well, now it's the second post.
           \_ I see more posts dated today than I'm willing to read on a
              Shithead(tm) site.  Please identify exactly which post you
              think is "awesome."
              \_ I'm betting this one: http://tinyurl.com/5bpuc
2005/3/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36481 Activity:very high
3/2     Interesting writeup on how Palestinian terror is fundamentally
        flawed, and must be abandoned.
        http://www.techcentralstation.com/022805A.html
                \_ " If the possession of an enormous stockpile of nuclear
             weapons does not make you a sovereign state, it is
             difficult to say what would."
        \_ Who is right and who is wrong? Here is something for you
           good Christians to memorize:
              good = Christians > Jews > Other Religions > Muslims
           In another word, Christians are always right. Any question?
           \_ Can't argue with the article, huh?
        \_ The whole article is filled with so many distortions and outright
           falsehoods that it is not worth bothering with. I suppose you
           think that the Palestinians should just all leave or die
           and give their land over to the Settlers. Because if they
           did not defend themselves, that is what would have happened.
           had not defended themselves, that is what would have happened.
           But I cannot argue with his conclusions, no matter how error
           filled and fallacious his argument is.
        \_ You don't need a whole article.
           If your side has suicide bombers blowing up civilians, you're
           on the wrong side.  This is debatable, but if you try to debate
           the legitimacy of suicide bombers blowing up civilians, I'd say
           you were also on the losing side of the debate.
           \_ If you are on the side of people taking other people's land
                and tearing down their houses, you are on the losing
                side of the debate.
              \_ If the two sides are:  Blow up civilians with suicide bombers;
                 and assassinating the leaders of those responsible for
                 the bombings with innocent lives (including children) lost
                 in the assassinations, and demolishing the homes of innocent
                 people who are related by blood to the bombers -- guess which
                 side is the losing side?
                 \_ Both sides.
                    \_ Okay.  But let's say you didn't have to ally yourself
                       with a side.  Let's say you were judging which side
                       is worse.  Which would it be?
                       \_ The PA is automatically worse because their goal
                          of destroying Israel is, and always has been,
                          fantasy.  If they had stated asked for a two
                          state solution, they would've had it years ago.
                          \_ The point is, if your side has suicide bombers
                             killing civilians with the goal being to kill
                             as many civilians as possible to help your side,
                             you're on the wrong side.
                             \_ Sooo... we have 2 different reasons why PA
                                is worse than Israel.  Will none stand
                                for the Palestinian cause?
                                \_ Maybe as soon as they stop with the
                                   organized suicide bombers blowing up
                                   civilians.
                                   And you know, who knows, that might happen.
                          \_ The PA's goal has not been the destruction of
                             Isreal for at least a decade now. What is your
                             excuse for assassinating the Palestinian
                             leadership and blowing up their civic institutions?
                             Oh yeah, you have no one to negotiate with. What
                             a dumbass argument. You kill all the leaders
                             of a group and then castigate them for not
                             having any leaders. It is hard to imagine
                             a more immoral policy.
                             \_ Which group are you talking about?  The
                                Palestinian people as a group or a subgroup
                                within in?
                                \_ PA stands for Palestinian Authority.
                                   \_ The question is, does the PA support
                                      suicide bombing?
                                      \_ Certainly not today. The official
                                         stance of Arafat was that he was
                                         opposed to them after 1982(?), but
                                         others think that he secretly supported
                                         them. A claim like that is hard to
                                         refute or prove, either way.
                                         \_ Did Israel assassinate Arafat;
                                            or other PA leaders not associated
                                            with groups that support suicide
                                            bombing?
                             \_ If the leaders being assassinated head a group
                                which supports suicide bombers, it's not a bad
                                idea to kill them.
                                If the leaders being assassinated oppose
                                suicide bombing, it's a pretty bad idea to kill
                                them.
                                \_ Why not simply arrest them and bring them
                                   to trail? Why the need for extra judicial
                                   killing guaranteed to have collateral
                                   civilian casualties?
                                   \_ Why the need for suicide bombings against
                                      civilians which are guaranteed to have
                                      civilian casualties?
                                      Why not simply protest the occupation
                                      and hold demonstrations?
                       \_ Which is better, being blind or being deaf? Either
                          way, you lose. Better/worse here is semantics at
                          best, trivialization more like. Suicide bombings are
                          terrible and reprehensible; so's land grabbing.
                          Neither justifies or excuses the other.
                          \_ I doubt it.  You're the one who's arguing
                             semantics.  Clearly, suicide bombing is worse
                             in this case.
                             \_ Land grabbing is worse, cause the motivation
                                is greed.
                                \_ "Land grabbing" in general is bad.
                                   In the specific context of punishing the
                                   other side because they won't stop using
                                   suicide bombers -- suicide bombing is
                                   clearly worse -- and it should be obvious
                                   that the primary motivations are punishment
                                   and (perhaps) protection, not greed.
                                   \_ The land grabbing obviously came first.
                                      And is it worse to kill civilians via
                                      suicide bomber or rocket from a
                                      helicopter? They seem equivalent to me.
                                      \_ Okay, you land grab from my people.
                                         I start blowing up your people with
                                         suicide bombers.  I think the second
                                         part is worse.  A much more sane
                                         response is anything not involving
                                         suicide bombers.
                                         The Man is going to screw with you and
                                         your livelihood.  However, you are
                                         strengthening The Man by using suicide
                                         bombers.
                                         Killing civilians from a helicopter
                                         != killing civilians from a helicopter
                                            as a result of their being innocent
                                            bystanders while targeting the
                                            leaders of suicide bombers;
                                         Killing civilians from a helicopter
                                         ~= killing civilians with a suicide
                                            bomber
                                         \_ If your argument is that using
                                            suicide bombers is impolitic,
                                            you have no quibble with me.
                                            If your argument is that the
                                            Palestinians do not have the
                                            same right to self-defence that
                                            everyone else in the world has,
                                            then we are going to have to
                                            agree to disagree.
                                            \_ "right to self-defence" does
                                               not include suicide bombing of
                                               civilians with the intent to
                                               kill as many civilians as
                                               possible
                                               \_ How do you feel about the
                                                  bombing of the King David
                                                  Hotel by Irgun?
                                                  \_ I am not answering your
                                                     question directly, but can
                                                     say:  If Irgun existed
                                                     today, and planned suicide
                                                     bombings in 2005 with the
                                                     intent to kill as many
                                                     civilians as possible, the
                                                     leaders of Irgun should be
                                                     killed.
                                                     \_ Why does it matter so
                                                        much to you what the
                                                        method of delivery is?
                                                        If it is wrong today,
                                                        it was wrong in 1946
                                                        and visa versa, in
                                                        my opinion.
                                                        \_ Anyways, thanks
                                                           for arguing with me.
                                                           This has led me
                                                           to think more about
                                                           Nagasaki.
2005/2/25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36424 Activity:kinda low
2/25    This is what Palestinians mean when they say "cease fire":
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4299609.stm
        \_ The bomb was planted by a militant group that never agreed
           to the ceasefire, and is actively trying to sabotage
           negotiations.  Same old shit...
           \_ except Arafat is dead now
              \_ Anyone who thought that was going to change much of anything
                 was living in a fantasy world.  Both the Israelies and the
                 Palestinians are paralyzed by the demands of their hard
                 line factions - the idea that the death of one man would
                 change that seems a bit silly.
2005/2/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36218 Activity:low
2/17    Abbas takes a hard line against terrorism by killing "collaborators."
        http://csua.org/u/b3m
        \_ Sharon just runs over his collaborators with a bulldozer.
2005/2/8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36102 Activity:high
2/8     Bets on how long before the Israelis and Palestinians start shooting
        again? Is Vegas in on it yet? I give it two weeks.
        \_ Well, considering Hamas claims the cease fire doesn't apply to
           them, I'd say, not long.  It's a pretty classic pattern.
           Palestinian government calls cease fire, but doesn't enforce
           it.  Radicals kill some Isrealis.  Isrealis kill some radicals.
           Palestinians go back to endorsing terrorism because the Isralis
           broke the cease fire.
           \_ The PA doesn't "enforce it" because they are not powerful
              enough. Then Isreal punishes the PA for not enforcing it
              by rocketing their jails and killing some of their leaders,
              making them even less able to enforce it. General idiocy by
              both sides abounds.
2005/1/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35851 Activity:moderate
1/21    More fun from Bus 19 in Berkeley:
        http://www.zombietime.com/bus_19_berkeley/part_2
        "Don't believe the news, it's controlled by the Jews! "
        \_ Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that the Palestinians
           don't blame the Germans. After all, if there wasn't a
           holocaust there may have not been an Israel. Of course,
           if there had been no WWII they'd still all be british
           colonies.
           \_ The animosity from Muslims to Jews is written is the Quran.
              "Jews are evil" is practically part of the religion.
        \_ Well I KNOW news is controlled by the Jews, that's the only reason
           I believe it.
        \_ this is no different between liberals and conservatives, each with
           strong and incompatible ideologies. It's actually like motd.
        \_ What irritates me the most is not these idiots, nor the ones
           waving "love-it-or-leave-it" signs at NASCAR events--in fact, I'm
           encouraged by the fact that they're able to do this at all.  I am
           just discouraged by the existence of people who actually believe
           this sort of claptrap.  -John
2005/1/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35768 Activity:nil
1/18    Did anyone go out to see the Bus 19 protest stuff in Berkeley?
        http://underscorebleach.net/content/misc/zombie/bus_19_berkeley
        \_ But wait, Palestine is a democracy now!  I thought once a nation
           had elections terrorists magically evaporated.
           \_ No, it's when everyone has guns all crime with magically
              stop!  Er, wait, that doesn't hold up either..
2005/1/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35630 Activity:high
1/9     I have a question.  I've heard at least 1 person on the motd refer
        to the military occupation of Palestine, or some similar term.
        I've also seen signs that say, "End the Israeli Occupation of
        Palestine" around campus.  What are you suggesting when you say
        this?  That all the Israelis should leave Palestine?  A two state
        solution? -jrleek
        \_ There are a range of possible meanings depending on who is
           saying it. Some folks (most notably the group behind Internat'l
           A.N.S.W.E.R.) advocate no Israeli presence in Palestine at all. As
           you might guess, this is not very many people, even among poll of
           Palestinians. For most folks likely to say this, I believe this
           means a roll back to the pre-1967 border, including abandonment or
           at least, demilitarization of the settlements in the West Bank and
           the Gaza Strip. Israelis could remain. They would become citizens
           of the new state the way Arab-Israelis are citizens of Israel.
           That's my understanding, anyway. Does that help?-- ulysses
           \_ Yeah, thanks. -jrleek
           \_ Middle east is the land promised to the Jews by God, just like
              America is the land promised to Mormons by God.  Are you an
              atheist?
              \_ aaron, is that you?
                 \_ It might be an incredible simulation.
              \_ My grandma believes that (Middle East -> Jews)
           \_ I think we should rollback to when Great Britain controlled
              it. Wouldn't that be so much better and also historically
              appropriate? Look what happens when you give these people their
              own government. Hmmm. Maybe cede it back to Italy (Rome).
              While we are at it we should give California and Texas
              back to Mexico, or is that to the Native Americans?
              \_ Ah, let's just send all of these newcomers back where they
                 came from. Half of me can be sent to Denmark, while the other
                 two quarters can be divided equally throughout Ireland and
                 Poland.
        \_ The BEST argument I've heard re the two state soln is that the
           the land belonged to the poor Palestinian and the EVIL JEWS took
           it from them in 1947. How would you like it if someone came to
           your house and took it from you I'm asked. However this view of
           history is quite wrong and overlooks the historic possession
           of Palestine by the Jews going back to the time of David (some
           3000 yrs ago). The better question to ask people who believe
           in no Israel or a two state soln is: If you were driven from
           your house and wrongfully imprisioned for a long time, when you
           finally made it back home and you found some squatters claiming
           that your land was really theirs WTF would you do? Leave them
           to it? I'll bet you would.
           \_ No I would slaughter them all and rape their women and feast
              on their goats.
           \_ But the fundamental difference is that the people who were
              forcibly ejected from their homes in 1947 are still around,
              or at least some of them are. Things that mythically happened
              2 or 3 thousand years ago can't be followed with a clear title
              claim. We can right the injustice of the wrong to an indvidual,
              but at some point, you have to let the past be the past. Do you
              think the US should give all its land back to the Natives, too?
              \_ Not only that but who knows but that some of those
                 Palestinians are also descended from some ancient Jews? And
                 In the Roman empire some Jews voluntarily moved around.
              \_ I think the point here is that the land belongs to the
                 Jews now because Britain, which conquered it, essentially
                 gave it to them. The Palestinians have no more claim to
                 the land than the Spanish do to Mexico. Just because
                 'they were living there' does not make it theirs. Jews
                 were living there, too.
              \_ If we are talking about title (and I was not), perhaps you
                 should consider that the current inhabitants have acquired
                 clear title via adverse possession.
                 I was simply pointing out that the argument of priority is
                 ridiculous and when taken to its logical conclusion it
                 yields as result not favorable to those who expouse it.
                 Personally I don't think that the US should give land back
                 to anyone and I don't think Israel ought to yield one single
                 inch either.
2005/1/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35538 Activity:high
1/4     If Washington wants to boost America's image in the Muslim world, why
        didn't Powell go directly to Indonesia instead of Thailand?  Better
        yet, why didn't Bush send someone higher like Chaney or even go there
        himself?  That would've been a big boost if Bush show himself there
        even if he leaves the real work to someone else.  (The prime minister
        of Singapore went to Indonesia himself, for example, not that
        Singapore has an image problem.)
        \_ Powell got sent because they're building him up for something big
           later on-- it's pretty much the same reason he presided over the
           NYC New Year's Eve apple-dropping.  Thailand is a strong US ally,
           and BushCo have a pattern of recognizing allies first, potential
           allies second; it's their way of rewarding loyalty.
           \_ OK.  I'll bite.  What are they building Powell up big for
              later on?  Is he running for U.S. President in 08?  Or the
              U.N. Secretary General in 06?  I thought Clinton wanted that
              position?
           \_ I'll bite too. What could they build him up for, since he
              has vowed to leave politics?
              \_ Pope.
        \_ Because our image can't be changed in the Muslim world until the
           Mullahs stop preaching hatred of the USA, or the people have enough
           freedom to learn for themselves that we're not the great Satan.
        \_ If Washington wants to change their image in the middle east,
           they should simply not overthrow any more mossadeghs, not
           support israel, and not invade any more iraqs.
           \_ You've never spent much time with Arabs have you?
              \_ You mean "crazed, fundamentalist Arabs". Lots of Arabs
                 are perfectly rational people.
                 \_ In my small experiance, most of the ones who come to
                    the states are perectly rational people.  The ones
                    stuck in fascist hellholes are nuts because all they
                    hear is propoganda 24-7.  It's hard to be rational
                    when your whole life experiance is insane.  That's
                    what I was trying to get at above.
        \_ you forgot that 53% of the Americans don't really care about what
           the world thinks about U.S. Only sissy peacenik gay liberals
           care what other people think about themselves.       -conservative
2004/11/21 [Recreation/Humor, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35003 Activity:nil
11/21   jotd: The day that doctors announced that Yasser Arafat is in a
        vegetative state, a Palestinian newspaper published the headline
        "The Great Leader is Brain Dead." If this were published in the
        United States of America, no one would really have noticed.
        \_ har.  get a life.  -tom
2004/11/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34908 Activity:nil 60%like:34905
11/15   Canadians love Arafat too!
        http://tinyurl.com/42bqr
2004/11/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34905 Activity:nil 60%like:34908
11/15   Canadians love Arafat too!
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/11/12/710607.html
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:34826 Activity:high
11/11   Arafat was... Gay?
        http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=350
        \_ I think he really died of BEING OLD
        \_ this is first time you have heard this!?  You live under
           a rock?
        \_ love how they write Palestinian in quotes. "So-called 'leader'
           of 'nation' mourned by 'people'."
        \_ Hearing it from an Israeli source makes it less believable.
           \_ No, hearing it from something that sounds like the Israeli
              equivalent of the Arch-freeper makes it less believable.
              \_ I thought it read more like the New York Post.
                 \_ NYP is Nobel literature compared to this shit.  It's more
                    like the pro-muslim/pro-Israeli nutjobs at Sather Gate.
                    \_ Just for the hell of it, I went and read the NYP's
                       article from today on Arafat for comparison, and
                       you're absolutely right.  This is far kookier.
        \_ "medical experts believe the blood-soaked Muslim terror
            chief is dying from complications related to the AIDS
            virus." Any paper use this kind of language cannot be trusted.
            \_ Heh, that's why I posted it.  I thought it was funny.
2004/11/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34820 Activity:insanely high
11/10   The bastard finally died.  Arafat RIH.
        http://www.cnn.com
        http://tinyurl.com/ufse
        \_ you're not jewish by chance, are you?
           \_ only jews hate murdering thieving terrorist thugs?  god save
              the human race if thats true....
                \_ no- only jews hate arafat and what he believed in.
                   \_ sheesh, troll.  go away trollboy.  so stupid and obvious.
                   \_  And what was that exactly?  What principles was he
                       upholding by stealing billions of dollars of his
                       own people's money?  What principles was he upholding
                       by slaughtering innocent civilians?
                        \_ when did he steal his own people's $ ?
                           \_ *blanch*  He's estimated to have stolen
                              upwards of $5 billion.  Here's a low-ball
                              from CBS. -!pp
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml
            \_ i hope you will make similar comments when bush, or putin
               or sharon dies. if not i hope god kills you soon.
               \_ Umm.. right.  Call me when you get back to reality.
               \_ if you can't tell the difference between arafat and these
                  three you're hopeless.  i know the motd well enough to know
                  you're probably not a troll.  that's the sad part.
        \_ Arafat was a Communist / Soviet agent.  Good riddance.
        \_ All these rumors about Arafat stealing are all lies spread
           by the Israelis.
           \_ Where else does his wife's 5-figure monthly allowance come from?
              \_ Hey, they have lots of admirers and supporters including rich
                 Arabs.  No biggie.  Probably comes from your gas guzzling
                 SUV.
        \_ Arafat was the father of the modern Palestinian statehood movement.
           All decent people despise him for that.
2004/11/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34744 Activity:very high
11/8    Religion of peace, though they look like La Raza
        Jihad at San Francisco State
        http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15855
        \_ All of these kids are definitely eligible for the Alec Baldwin
              \_ Hey, I'm not the one complaining about every little thing
                 that's wrong in the U.S. I didn't agree with the Iraq war,
                 but then I don't agree with a lot of things that the
                 government does. Does that mean I bitch and moan about
                 it all day and threaten to leave? No, because for all
                 its fault the U.S. isn't like a really horrible place to
                 life. If you think that, hey, you can leave, and I'm
                 willing to help defray your cost for leaving. Seems
                 logical to me. So what's your beef? -williamc
                 \_ So every time someone bitches and moans about it, you're
                    going to bitch and moan about them bitching and moaning?
                    Get a grip, son.  Let them vent their frustration without
                    adding to the useless din.
           Pledge Fund. I say we pool our money together and send the
              \_ Well, nobody is forcing anybody out of the country, but
                 a lot of people have expressed that they do want to leave,
                 so why not help them? Seems pretty damn logical to me.
                 I mean, if someone keeps complaining about the food in a
                 restaurant, then why do you keep coming back to it? It's not
                 like you HAVE to eat there. That's the wonderful concept of
                 free will. If you don't like it, you can leave. If you don't
                 like the U.S. and you're saying that everything sucks, then
                 there's like a whole other world to live in. So my question
                 is, why are you still here if you complain about it so much?
                 -williamc
                 \_ You know what, you're right.  Then again, the whole
                    concept of a free society is that you have the right to
                    try and change the things you don't like, and to mouth
                    off about that as much as you want, without people telling
                    you "if you don't like it, why not just leave?"  Note that
                    I use "right" not in its constitutional sense, but rather
                    in the common sense (as in "I have the right to not have
                    to deal with blithering morons.")  -John
                 \_ Uhm yeah.  I think very few people that actually say this
                    really want to do that; it's an expression of the general
                    turmoil in the nation.  The fact that you need this pointed
                    out to you is kind of sad.
           Palestinians back to Palestine and the rest to Canada.
           -williamc
           \_ William, I'm sure the ABPF would benefit greatly if you pledged
              to go with the exiles.
              \_ Hey, I'm not the one complaining about every little thing
                 that's wrong in the U.S. I didn't agree with the Iraq war,
                 but then I don't agree with a lot of things that the
                 government does. Does that mean I bitch and moan about
                 it all day and threaten to leave? No, because for all
                 its fault the U.S. isn't like a really horrible place to
                 life. If you think that, hey, you can leave, and I'm
                 willing to help defray your cost for leaving. Seems
                 logical to me. So what's your beef? -williamc
                 \_ Will, first of all you're perpetuating a myth that makes
                    leftie celebs like Alex Baldwin look like idiots. Stop.
                    They don't need any help doing that.  Second, the last
                    thing this country needs is lib-flight to the Great White
                    North; contrary to what ppl post on freep, we _need_ an
                    opposition here (including you, apparently), so stop
                    trying to buy tickets for people and start convincing
                    them to take up the fight right here.
                    \_ Well, I can't vouch for leftie celebs, I don't know
                       them. But if they make stupid statements like "I
                       will leave the country if XYZ gets elected" then
                       I call them like I see them. I generally have a low
                       opinion of most celebs, as I've worked in Hollywood
                       for a limited time and wasn't impressed with the
                       people in the system. I completely concur that we
                       need an opposition, and although I'm a fiscal
                       conservative I respect others for having a different
                       opinion. What I don't like is the defeatist attitude
                       that seems to pervade the left. The reason why
                       the conservatives (and in california I am pretty
                       much a conservative by context, although I have
                       no great love of fundementalism or creationism and
                       I do believe gay people should have rights) is that
                       we (meaning the conservative people that I associate
                       with on a daily basis who have similar beliefs as I
                       do) seem to have a more "can do" attitude. Maybe it's
                       because we've worked for what we have. Maybe it's
                       just that conservatives have faith in their religion
                       or themselves or both. Whatever it is, the left is
                       just shooting themselves in the foot because they
                       don't attract people like myself and my friends.
                       The radical agenda of the left is just so off
                       putting and defeatist. If the left wants to win
                       then stop whining and start putting up. Fight the
                       creationists, fight the anti-choice proponents,
                       fight the racists, fight ignorance. But if you
                       on the left continue to expound defeatist attitudes,
                       if you on the left fail to come together and find
                       resolve, then you are a truly doomed party. The
                       democratic party just doesn't reach out to people
                       in the middle anymore, and it gives off the impression
                       of liberal elitism that nobody is impressed with.
                       In addition, if I respect your views although they
                       are different from mine, I expect you to do the same
                       for me, and I have found very little tolerance from
                       the liberals for my conservative views on certain
                       subjects. That just makes me NOT want to deal with
                       whiny defeatist liberals. If you're going to leave,
                       then leave.
                       -williamc
                       \_ Okay, look.  The dems just lost a very acrimonious,
                          potentially impactful election.  If you think that
                          whining and 'defeatist attitude' is unique to the
                          Dems, then either you're blinding yourself, or
                          you're too young to remember Clinton's reelection.
                          As for the absurd generalization that 'lefties are
                          defeatest', I've worked and associated with both
                          sides and have found alot of that can-do attitude
                          (that you allege is only extant on the R side) on the
                          D side as well.  I've also found alot of rabidly
                          hostile and absurdly destructive whininess from the
                          R side.  Your one sided experience doesn't say so
                          much about the D/left side to me as it does about
                          your objectivity.  Deporting people because they're
                          upset isn't very can-do, IMO -- it's petulant and
                          stinks of puerile 'tit-for-tat'.  Either put up and
                          figure out how to address their problems and find a
                          way to make it work, or stop being part of the
                          problem by injecting more emotion and invective
                          into the mix.  Your attitude in this matter heavily
                          undermines your assertion about 'can-do-on-the-right'
                          btw.                  -POC
                          \_ Again, you are making sweeping assumptions about
                             what is stated. First off, I made no suggestion
                             that ANYBODY be deported. Deportation is the
                             forceful removal of individuals from this country.
                             I advocate no such thing. I merely say unto those
                             who state that they will leave the country for
                             greener pastures if so-and-so is elected that
                             they put their money where their mouth is and
                             follow through with their pledges. Second, I have
                             had extensive experience dealing with liberals,
                             having been involved as an ASUC senator for a year.
                             Basically everyone in Berkeley politics is pretty
                             far out liberal and there are very few middle of
                             the roaders or strict conservatives. The experience
                             has merely been reinforced in the "real world."
                             As for "tit-for-tat", it appears that YOU are
                             the one with the beef, not me. I have already
                             stated that I respect others right to differing
                             viewpoints, and I would welcome the input of those
                             on the opposite side of the fence. I have never
                             been and never will be a strict conservative or a
                             strict liberal. They are merely stupid labels
                             for the mentally incapable which you apparently
                             appear to be. Your defense of liberal defeatism
                             is also exceedingly weak. Boohooo, you lost the
                             election. Get over it, stop being acrimonious
                             because it's not working. It hasn't worked for
                             the past 10 years. Yes, both parties are at
                             fault for being acrimonious. I was there when
                             Limbaugh was king of radio, I was there when
                             Lewinsky-gate developed, I was there during the
                             Dole debates, hell, I was there when when Dukakis
                             stuck his head out of the tank. I was even
                             there when Geraldine Ferraro was running for VP.
                             So don't make assumptions that you can't back.
                             The point is that neither left nor right has
                             all the answers, and it is important to learn
                             how to work together on issues. So, stop being
                             so politically devisive yourself, stop pandering
                             to the leftist dogma or the the rightist dogma,
                             start using reason and common sense to come to
                             policy, stop towing the party line, and start
                             owning up to your words. All I ask is that
                             people do what they say and say what they
                             do, and all I can say is that from my experience
                             the moderates and conservatives seem a lot less
                             flaky to owning up to their words. -williamc
                             \_ Actually, I'm calling you a hypocrite, an
                                accusation which you've largely substantiated.
                                ASUC senate isn't representative of anything
                                real, as anybody with half a brain would
                                (or should, at any rate) know.  Yes: neither
                                side as all the answers, but from your rhetoric
                                it seems rather hard to believe that you
                                actually ascribe to that, rather than using it
                                as a lever to gain the moral highground.  Yes,
                                let's work together on the issues and stop
                                bandying about such absurdly undescriptive
                                binary labels as 'liberal' or 'conservative'.
                                It's interesting that, despite all your avowals
                                of moderate objectivism, you STILL continue to
                                inject divisiveness even as you assert your
                                superiority and ability not to be subject to
                                it.  I never defended the left's whininess,
                                which you'd have realized if you were paying
                                attention; I pointed out that it's NOT UNIQUE
                                to the left, counter to your earlier
                                assertions.  The point should be obvious,
                                namely that being in denial of this fact only
                                shows that you're likely part of the problem.
                                Again, if you'd been paying attention to
                                anything I said, you'd have also noted that I
                                was pretty clear about referencing that I've
                                seen positive attitude on BOTH sides, as well
                                as negative.  I suspect that both sides are
                                very large populations of people, and asserting
                                any facile generalization about behavior to
                                one side or the other is, at best, self-
                                serving.  Perhaps this conversation would best
                                be continued offline, since it's clear we're
                                just going to be wasting bits here.   -POC
           \_ YEAH!  USA!  #1!  If you don't like it, get the fuck out!  -John
              \_ Well, nobody is forcing anybody out of the country, but
                 a lot of people have expressed that they do want to leave,
                 so why not help them? Seems pretty damn logical to me.
                 I mean, if someone keeps complaining about the food in a
                 restaurant, then why do you keep coming back to it? It's not
                 like you HAVE to eat there. That's the wonderful concept of
                 free will. If you don't like it, you can leave. If you don't
                 like the U.S. and you're saying that everything sucks, then
                 there's like a whole other world to live in. So my question
                 is, why are you still here if you complain about it so much?
                 -williamc
        \_ Dude, relax, it's not like any of them will have jobs beyond
           "sales executive" after graduating from college.  -John
           \_ ...which is likely to mean they'll cause more trouble rather
              than less.
                \_ Erm, picture Al Bundy rioting.  -John
                   \_ I think there was a labor day episode about that.
                      And the beer tax episode.  In fact, Al Bundy riots
                      a fair amount.  -- ilyas
           \_ a joke?
        \_ THE AMERICAN LEFT HAS NO HISTORY OF VIOLENCE!
           \_ Boohoo, I got slapped by a 98 pound woman. I am going to cry
              and whine about how I am oppressed!
              \_ You go/went to a university where a guy can get busted because
                 some woman 'feels' you oppressed her but it's ok for her to
                 slug you and then jump you?  Okey dokey!  No double standard
                 there!  Good thinking!  Is it ok if she knifes you?  Clubs
                 you?  Shoots you?  You're a knucklehead.
                 \_ She did not slug the guy or jump him or stab him
                    or shoot him, she slapped him. Stick to reality please.
                    And you are a pussy if you think being slapped by a
                    woman is a big deal.
                    woman is a big deal. My guess is that you have never
                    been in a real fight or slapped by a real woman ever
                    in your life.
                    \_ She jumped him and had to have 3 cops pull her off.
                       If that is a-ok with you because it was a woman hitting
                       a man then please join william's org and find a new
                       country where it is ok to abuse someone because of
                       their gender and blame the victim and call the victim
                       names.  If it was a conservative woman, say Ann Coulter,
                       who hit a liberal guy, say you(!!!) then you'd be
                       screaming bloody murder and pressing every charge in
                       the book.  Hypocrite.
                       \_ Uh, no, actually if it was AC I'd happily beat the
                          living shit out of her and claim self-defense.  Oh
                          wait...I just proved ilyas point, huh?  Damn, I
                          better stop and reexamine myself or something.
        \_ 1) "a noisy and menacing mob"? The barbarians are at the gates!
           2) I thought an "entourage" needed someone to accompany.
           3) You couldn't find a freeper link for this?
           \_ 1) Huh?
              2) True!
              3) It's ok to attack people I don't agree with!
           \_ A quick google will turn up pleanty of webpages about what
              has been going on at SFSU.  If you don't like frontpage, you
              can read the same story a dozen other places.
              \_ I've got nothing in the news.  Can you point me to a reputable
                 source for these stories?  I'm not trusting FPM on this any
                 more than I'd trust Mother Jones on a labor conspiracy.
                 \_ This stuff has been going on at SFSU for years.  If you
                    don't know about it by now... sheesh.
                    \_ Does "sheesh" = "you must not go to SFSU"?
                 \_ That's true, it doesn't seem to have appeared in the
                    news.  I have to idea what you would consider
                    news.  I have no idea what you would consider
                    reputable, and I'm pretty sure you can google as well
                    as I can.  I found a couple of eye-witness accounts,
                    and an editorial on why the SFSU president did the
                    right thing in about a minute.
                    \_ Let's see: Jihad Watch, the Great Separation, and
                       Front Page Mag are the only ones I get via Google.
                       Share the ones you've found?  The editorial sounds
                       interesting.
                       \_ Hmm.. I made a mistake.  Most of these links
                          refer to an earlier incident.  Here's the stuff
                          about the earlier incident, I'll look some more
                          for this more recent one.
Cron: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/05/15/BA110132.DTL
Present professor: http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/128582_comment.php
Editorial :http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020524/comm2.shtml
                          \_ Thank you.  The Chron link was plenty, and,
                             all jokes about its epitaph "the Comical" aside,
                             this is an actualy news story.  That said, wtf?
                             this is an actual news story.  That said, wtf?
                             C'mon, SFSU kids, less aggro, more solutions.
                             \_ I had a class at Cal about the history of the
                                Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  Very fair,
                                interesting Israeli professor, students were
                                ca. 30% MSU, 30% IAC and 30% "other".  I can
                                definitely see these turds at SFSU as being
                                for real after that experience.  -John
                                \_ And 10%??? (MSU == MSA?)
                                   \_ Liberal arts, we're not real good at
                                      complex math.  It used to be called MSU
                                      as I recall.  They and IAC were the ones
                                      always screaming at each other at
                                      Sather gate.  -John
                                      \_ You're a liberal arts major?WTF?
                                         \_ Bite me. -!John
2004/11/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34689 Activity:moderate
11/5    Arafat on machines, in "reversible coma" (from his spokesman)
        \_ One interesting conspiracy theory I heard from an israeli friend
           of mine is that Arafat is actually dead, but is instead being
           'slowly phased out,' to prevent Palestinian infighting. -- ilyas
           \_ Wouldn't you also need to slowly phase someone else in?
              \_ Could be a power struggle behind the scenes right now.
           \_ I don't think that's much of a conspiracy, I think it's
              pretty obviously what they're doing.
           \_ That could be true, but totally unrelated to any conspiracy
              theory. They publicly said that he wouldn't be pronounced
              dead until they determine a burial site, since religious
              rules dictate that he needs to be buried within 48 hours
              of his death. So they might very well delay the announcement
              of his death.
              \_ Rumors of my death have been greatly enumerated.
           \_ check out this world tribune article:
              http://216.26.163.62/2004/me_palestinians_11_04.html
              \_ The Swiss win again!
                \_ Damn straight.  Now where'd I put those gold teeth?  -John
2004/10/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34457 Activity:moderate
10/30   There's a lot of interesting stuff in here about internal Jewish
        division and Israel politics and their relationship with Hamas.
        http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3972
        \_ This is pretty frothing-at-the-mouth stuff.
           \_ What?  Did you read it?  Read the Hamas quotes.  What is frothing?
           \_ It's an international jewish conspiracy to kill jews!
2004/10/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34364 Activity:nil
10/26   Knesset approves Sharon plan to yank out the settlers:
        http://csua.org/u/9nr (Bloomberg)
2004/9/29 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33824 Activity:nil
9/28    For extra fun, every time they say "Jew," substitute "homosexual"
        and suddenly everyone sounds like Jimmy Swaggart!
        http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD79104
        Oh, and if you're wondering what MEMRI's biases are, go here:
        http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=MEMRI
        \_ What do you sound like when you replace "Jew" with "whitey"?
2004/9/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33530 Activity:low
9/14    Election trolls are boring, let's talk about Israel!
        What will happen to the settler movement if they
        pull off their threat to assassinate Sharon?
        http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040914/325/f2lew.html
        \_ why not talk about the election AND Israel...
           see "Is Israel a swing state" link below...
        \_ I read somewhere that there are about 2000 families basically
           holding the rest of the country hostage.  A lot of Israelis I've
           spoken to expressed a great deal of anger and frustration with the
           militant fringe and with the orthodox population at large--while
           in favor of securing the country against mad bombers, they didn't
           like having the nutcases speak for them.  If the settlers did
           whack Sharon, I wouldn't be surprised to see a certain wall
           suddenly take small detours, putting various settlements on the
           Palestinian side... -John
2004/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33526 Activity:high
9/14    "Is Israel 'Swing State' That Could Tip U.S. Election?"
        http://csua.org/u/916 (Yahoo! News)
        "Many say their choice will be guided more by whether they think Bush
        or Kerry will best serve Israel's interests than by the candidates'
        stand on taxes and other domestic issues."  I think any citizens who
        put another country/region's interests (be it Israel, Palestine, China,
        Taiwan, ...) before US interest should have their citizenship stripped.
        \_ Go back to China, troll.
           \_ HUH? Where the hell have you been in the past 50 years?
              Do you think you'll get ANYWHERE politically if you dare
              to challenge Israel? No one will be the president of the
              United States unless they support what Israel does, period.
              Wake up idiot.
              \_ No president in the past 30-50 years has ever dared to say
                 anything seriously bad about Israel. All they ever do is
                 "Oh please don't do that".
                 \_ After they whacked Kennedy for his ultimatum on
                    Israel's nuke program, would you say boo? We're
                    they're bitches.
                 \_ J00s 0wn0rz j00!
                 \_ So rather than calling Israel the 51st US State, we
                    should really call US the 7th Israeli District.  And Sharon
                    is actually not Dubya's son, but father.
                    \- hello you may wish to read: http://csua.org/u/91g
                       which is a book on the israeli lobby in the US by
                       fmr congressman. --psb
2004/9/7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33379 Activity:very high
9/7     Does anyone have any recommendations for Foriegn bands?  I quite
        like the Mexican Rock band Mana, and the Korean singer Boa is
        sometimes ok.
        \_ TaTu
        \_ Vladimir Vysotskiy, Brathanski, Garmarna, Yann Tiersen, Ali
           Primera, Gilberto Gil, Bebel Gilberto, Astrud Gilberto, Tom Ze,
           Os Mutantes
        \_ If you like rap, MC Solaar has his moments.
        \_ Plastilina Mosh?  Phil's Finest Hour?  Chico Cesar?  Damien Rice?
        \_ Los Fabulosos Cadillacs (actually a hybrid) and Manu Chao are two
           of my favorites. Also, he's been dead for years but nobody's life
           is complete w/o some exposure to Serge Gainsbourg, like him or not.
            -- ulysses
        \_ Do you mean non-English-speaking, or just foreign bands you may
           not have heard of?  I'm a big fan of the Aussie band The Cat
           Empire.  You might also have good luck with the BBC's The World:
           http://www.theworld.org/globalhits/index.shtml
           On a totally unrelated note, has anyone here heard the new Bjork
           album? The two tracks I've heard sound pretty sweet.
        \_ Sektor Gaza, russia most popular rock n roll band
           \_ This must have been a joke, but anyways, just don't listen it in
              front of someone who speaks Russian.. As for Russian rock bands,
              DDT is certainly the best. The rest are just wannabes.
              \_ sektor gaza is awesome! check out these song
                 titles: http://csua.org/u/8y1 -danh
        \_ Hedningarna, Finnish techno-rock-folk group.
        \_ It'd be helpful if you mentioned what type of music you were
           interested in, but:
                Brazil: Carlinhos Brown, Caetano Veloso, Os Mutantes, Tom Ze
                Argentina: Reynols, Astor Piazzolla
                Scotland: The Delgados, The Pastels
                Scandinavia: 22-Pisterpirkko, Pan sonic, Stina Nordenstam,
                        Flesh Quartet, Sigur Ros
                Germany: Jan Delay, Absolut Beginner, Can, Neu
                France/Africa: Les Nubians, Khaled, Natacha Atlas
                \_ Finland: FINNTROLL
           Check out http://allmusic.com and/or pick up a copy of the Wire.
        \_ Why do you hate America?
2004/8/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33258 Activity:nil
8/31    Will the world view the U.S. differently if the US stops
        supporting Israel?
        \_ The U.S. doesn't really support Israel now.
           \_ Only to the tune of $4B+ a year.
              \_ not really.
                 \_ Yes, really:
                    http://csua.org/u/8us (jewishvirtualibrary)
                    $2.7B in aid plus $10B in loan guarantees in 2003.
                    Maybe not exactly $4B, but somewhere around that
                    every year for the last 30 or so.
                    \_ no, not exactly.  you're wrong.
                       \_ Your debate skills could use some work.
                          \_ you're just saying that because you
                             control the media.
        \_ Yes.  Now please don't feed the trolls.
        \_ The terrarists will!! -lame troll #2
2004/8/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33193 Activity:high
8/27    Israeli spy discovered in the highest reaches of the Pentagon:
        http://csua.org/u/8t0
        \_ Uh, tell us something new?
           \_ All countries spy on each other, even allies. The French with
              their DGSE actively targets American companies for corporate
              episonage.
              \_ BUT THIS IS ISRAEL!  DIE JEW DIE!
                 \_ I am not Jewish - !op
        \_ WHY DO YOU HATE ISRAEL?
2004/8/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33142 Activity:high
8/25    Dear god, I agree with the Nazis about something:
        "Schoep, who's from Litchfield, Minnesota, says the National
         Socialists are protesting the "corrupt dictatorship" of
         President Bush."
        \_ I hate Illinois Nazis. And the ones from Minnesota too.
                \_ Calling all party members in the tri-state area
                        \_ I've always loved you!
        \_ So, in other words, the Nazis agree with Jewish liberals. There's
           irony for you.
           \_ Self destruction is a common trait among Jewish liberals.  I
              believe it has something to do with a cultural sense of self-
              hatred.  "They're always trying to kill us so we must be bad
              people".  Something like that.
           \_ I met a Jewish Nazi skinhead once. I kid you not. At a Chateau
              Party. I am still trying to figure that one out.
              \_ that's still not as ironic as the black white supremacist.
              \_ Well maybe he kid you.
                 \_ I hope so. He was hanging out with another azzhole wearing
                    a "Screwdriver" t-shirt, so I don't think so, but maybe
                    it was all some kind of sophisticated joke that I
                    didn't get.
           \_ I'm Jewish?  That's news to me! -op
              \_ You're not sure if you're Jewish?
              \_ *shrug* All I'm saying is that lots of Jewish liberals hate
                 Bush, too.
        \_ Nazis.  I hate these guys.
2004/8/2 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32631 Activity:nil 54%like:35188
8/2     Dear German John, are you a Jew?                -John #1 Fan
        \_ WTF? !john !jew
2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32317 Activity:high
7/16    American hero against communism, chess genius, and freedom player,
        arrested in Japan for deportation to U.S.:
        http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Japan-Bobby-Fischer.html?hp
        \_ Talented nutjob caught using revoked passport, will be returned
           to face charges for violating a different law.
           \_ "talented" is quite an understatement. He may or may not face charges
              for playing in YugoSlavia when they were under sanction.  Probably
              will, but it sucks if so.  They should leave him alone.  -phuqm
        \_ Hey, don't forget anti-Semite!
           \_"Of course I am not anti-Semitic. The Arabs are Semites, and I
              am certainly not anti-Arab" --Bobby Fisher
           \_ Hey, don't forget Jew!
              \_ Hey!  It's another self-hating jew!
2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32316 Activity:very high
7/16    Could someone a little more versed in Israli politics than I am
        please explain why the hell Mossad would want to illegally infiltrate
        New Zealand?
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3899583.stm
        \_ One theory I heard is that jews with NZ passports don't arouse
           nearly as much suspicion when traveling in other countries as they
           would carrying an Israeli passport.  There was a previous incident
           with Mossad forging Canadian passports.
        \_ Maybe they're not Mossad like they insist?
        \_ We all know how much socialists hate Jews.
        \_ They're trying to steal our super-sheep technology!
           \_ That's top-sheepcret!
              \_ naw, they're just afraid of getting lamb-pooned in the
                 media if it doesn't work.
              \_ I know a little German.  He's right over there.
                 \_ Do you have a little German in you?
           \_ Yup, the top-secret NZ sheep-cloning technology that has existed
              for decades which made their sheep-rearing industry so
              successful.  The New Zealanders laughed at Dolly the Sheep.
              \_ Dolly was ugly. If you're gonna clone, clone the pretty ones.
                 \_ All sheep look the same to me.
                    \_ We're not talking about the rear view here.
                    \_ RACIST!
                    \_ SHEEPIST!
                    \_ In the dark, they all look alike.
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