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2004/7/9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32196 Activity:nil
7/8     This is amusing.
        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39347
2004/6/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:30712 Activity:high
6/9     Here is something I don't understand.  In USA, people kept bitching
        about China's Tiananmen Square. The most illustrated photo was the
        guy who stands at front of tanks.  Just past month, Israeli tank
        actualy *FIRED* the artilary shell at demonstrators, yet I don't heard
        anything about people bitching about it.  Why?
        \_ you mean the terrorist hiding behind those kids?
        \_ hello ilyas. Logic doesn't work in the real world.
           \_ what makes you think this is ilyas?
           \_ wow, you really don't know ilyas.  i've never heard him say
              _anything_ anti-israel.
              \_ Hi.  It's not that I think Israel can do no wrong, it's that
                 people don't appreciate the strain Israeli society is under.
                 Imagine gigantic Oklahoma-city style bombs going off in the US
                 every week due to Mexicans who want California back.  That
                 would be a comparable situation.  (This probably doesn't
                 need to be stated, but I am not op.  Duh.) -- ilyas
                 \_ Well, Israel doesn't have Oklahoma-city style bombs going
                    off every week. Most of them are small scale. They also
                    have been and are still actively in the process of land
                    settlement/population transfer activities and military
                    occupation. Your analogy thus falls rather short IMO.
                    \_ Israel is much smaller than the US.  Israel is tiny.
                       Larger countries can absorb more shock.  I think you
                       may be rejecting the analogy because it makes it seem
                       like Israel is in terrible duress, and has been for
                       many years.  Sadly, I think that's precisely the case.
                       As far as the military occupation is concerned -- you are
                       right.  You have to understand though, that Israel is
                       _still_ at war with some of its neighbors (Syria).
                       Almost any pullout move on their part results in
                       their enemies growing bolder (remember the aftermath
                       of the Lebanon pullout).  The situation there is so
                       messy, I don't really know what I would do in their
                       shoes.  The IDF operates under the assumption the
                       palestinians and surrounding arab states work towards
                       destruction of Israel.  I don't blame the IDF for
                       thinking this. -- ilyas
                       \_ Thinking?  It's the stated, in writing, Palestinian
                          policy to destroy Israel as their ultimate goal.  Not
                          having their own contiguous nation, not having peace,
                          not a bogus right of return.  Destruction of Israel
                          is their goal.  They not only don't try to hide it,
                          they trumpet the fact at every opportunity.  Western
                          pro-Palestinian media simply ignores it and fails to
                          report the giant pink elephant standing in the middle
                          of the Middle East cocktail party.
        \_ there was a discussion a few days ago. See the motd archives.
        \_ The tank fired at a house, it detonated early on a pole in the
           way, the shrapnel killed a bunch of people (kids too).  The
           Tiananmen Square people didn't have suicide bombers, all of their
           supporters are unarmed, and never killed any pro-government people.
           \_ And today the Europeans will suck their own cocks to get in bed
              with China but all hope Israel dies and goes away so they can
              get back to business as usual.
2004/6/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:30648 Activity:moderate
6/5     According to the International Association of Travel Professionals,
        the most annoying tourists are from: Nigeria, Israel, Switzerland
        (from Conde Nast).
        \_ and according all the polls around the world, the most annoying
           tourists are from US of A where their only hint of having any
           culture is eating and farting yogurt.
2004/5/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:30310 Activity:very high
5/19    If you wonder why the Arab world hates the U.S., and Americans don't
        know why:
        "But by Wednesday evening, the images out of Gaza, where Israeli
        soldiers had fired on a demonstration of Palestinians, were so violent
        that the guilty plea of Specialist Sivits, who admitted to taking part
        in abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, received only secondary coverage on the
        main Arab satellite channels." -NY Times
        These kinds of images:  http://csua.org/u/7dg
        \_ He doesn't like you. I don't like you either.
           \_ I'll be careful.
              \_ you'll be dead!
        \_ You're saysing Arab world hates US because of Israel?
           \_ You're questioning Bush's unique support of Israel?
              \_ I'm not questioning anything, I'm just trying to figure
                 out what the op is saying.
           \_ Of course the only sane and civil thing to do is kill all Jews.
              \_ JOKE FUNNY!
2004/5/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:30304 Activity:high
5/19    Irony is Dead(tm) headline for the day:
        "Bush to Israel: Show Restraint, Respect Innocent Life"
        http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5195239
        \_ This deserves two w00ts:  w00t!  w00t!
           \_ Isn't that three w00ts?
              \_ This sentence contains one sentence.
                 \_ A sentence cannot contain any sentence.
                    \_ The sentence, "The sentence, 'This is a sentence.' is
                       true." contains a sentence.
                       \_ Don't make me write out the sentence 'I am not true'
                          in fully unabbreviated form. -- ilyas
                       \_ Period should be a comma before the end quote.
                          \_ That was intentional.  That grammar rule is
                             illogical and I refuse to obey it.
                       \_ Ah!  I concede.
              \_ Agh!  You just made it four!
              \_ It's one "w00ts" and two "w00t"s
                 \_ One w00t, two w00t, red w00t, blue w00t!
                    \_ Die.
        \_ w00t!  w00t!
2004/5/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:30301 Activity:nil
5/19    http://csua.org/u/7db (Washington Post)
        By the time [the crowd] reached the Zourob intersection, witnesses
        said, there were nearly 2,000 people chanting slogans and shouting
        "Jihad!" and "God is Great!" At a bend in the road, they spotted an
        Israeli tank in the distance and many hesitated, but those in front
        kept walking. Some threw stones toward the tank that fell well short
        of their target. Suddenly, the tank opened fire, according to
        witnesses and survivors. The artillery shell hit an electricity pylon
        and detonated, they said, sending razor-sharp fragments of the pylon
        and the shell casing mowing through the demonstrators.
        \_ Note to self: Don't throw rocks at tanks, Oh wait, I already
           KNEW that...
        \_ The tank operators weren't justified in their actions, but the
           Palestinians involved were REALLY FREAKIN' STUPID.
           \_ PLO terrorists, meet Charles Darwin.  Charles, meet PLO
              terrorists.
2004/5/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:30244 Activity:high
5/15    Get 'em Kofi!  The Middle East won't be safe until all the Jews are
        dead!
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1C1307DD-BF73-4769-AD70-5106EA7C4ADA.htm
        \_ Am I the only one who thinks that Anan/UN's statements make sense?
           Do you really think Israel has the right to raze hundreds of homes
           of these already very poor people? Yes, some of those could have
           been used by terrorists but does that give Israel the right to
           literally treat all of Palestinians like shit? This is a nice way
           to create even more recruits for Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
           \_ The entire palestinian society is now geared for fighting Israel.
              There may be innocents but for practical purposes, they are being
              held hostage by the radicals.  There is no longer any choice --
              Israel has to fight the Palestinian people as a whole.  There is
              no longer a way to separate 'normal' and 'radical.'
              \_ Time for the Final Solution, eh?
                 \_ Israel does not want to destroy the palestinian people,
                    unlike Israel's counterparts who almost certainly wish to
                    annihilate Jews from the Middle East.  Israel does want to
                    disengage in some way.
                    \_ It obviously does.  The difference is that Isreal is
                       not run by a bunch of crude and crazy morons who are
                       more interested in blowing their own people to martyrdom
                       than bulding a viable and functioning state while
                       underming that of its enemy in a complete and systematic
                       way .  The Palestinians deserve no sympathy.  Why should
                       the most stupid people survive?
2004/5/14 [Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:30229 Activity:high
5/14    Strong case for Freeper complicity in Berg's death. I had to
        grab it out of Google's cache, because of course, it has been
        "Freeped" off the air:
        http://csua.org/u/7bk
        \_ freepers turned me into a newt!!
        \_ Not a very strong case really.  Tin foil hat territory actually.
           Let's list the irregularities about Nick Berg:
           1) A Jew in Iraq, without any personal security (not exactly the
           safest thing in the world--but it appears he was motivated to help
           the reconstruction, and I respect his resolve for that).
           2) Had a Koran in Arabic and anti-semitic literature with him.
           3) Had an Israel stamp on his passport, and then stamps from other
           countries that typically don't allow people in if they've been
           through Israel.
           4) Zaccarias Moussaoui used his email in 2002.  In Oklahoma.
           5) He refused help from the US government to get home.
           That doesn't add up to a conspiracy, but it does mean that it's not
           a surprise that he was picked up by Iraqi police, and was
           interviewed by the FBI.  It also suggests he might have been a prize
           for Al Qaeda.
           \_ is there anything weird about the death video? like i read some
              stuff about how it looks edited or whatever. i haven't seen it.
              \_ ...and without missing a beat, we're right back in tinfoil
                 hat land.  nice.
2004/4/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:13292 Activity:nil
4/20    Can someone tell me why Araft and the PLO have been yelling about
        Israel getting out of the West Bank and Gaza for as long as I can
        remember, and now that they're getting it they don't want it?
        I must be missing something.
        \_ You're missing that Israel isn't really getting out.
        \_ Yes, you did. You must've been under a rock for the past five
           years. Arafat was offered what essentially amounted to
           a Palestinian state following the peace accords that were
           signed when Rabin was PM. After he won the Nobel Arafat
           basically did a 180 and said the agreement wasn't up to snuff
           because it wouldn't allow for repatriation of displaced
           Palestinians back into Israel. Essentially he used a small
           technicality to sink the deal. Arafat probably felt that if
           negotiated peace did come about it would essentially mean the
           end of the PLO since I think he's lost a lot of support by
           the Palestinians and he most likely wouldn't have won the
           leadership of the Palestinians if he had to go through a vote
           (or at least he would have a plurality in which he would have
           to share power). This is the reason why the international
           community has abandoned Arafat and the PLO. It's also why
           Sharon (an Israeli hardliner) is in power now.
           \_ And don't forget that the only reason "Arabs have a great
              hate for America" is because all they hear as "news" is
              vile propoganda.  Of course, laying out the facts in an
              understandable manner isn't exactly big in the American
              press either, but it is a HECK of a lot better here.
           \_ Right of return wasn't nearly the only issue.
              http://csua.org/u/6zd
              Why do you insist on holding to stupid justifications?
              \_ yawn, how about "you're vastly misinformed by the mainstream
                 press" instead of "you're a liar".
                 \_ Well, whatever. When someone spews off a long paragraph
                    claiming to be an authority, and with an obvious interest
                    in the subject, it's more than "misinformed by press".
                    I don't see that in the mainstream press. I'd grant that
                    he probably just gets his info from one-sided sources,
                    like any partisan listening to other partisans.
                    \_ I'm fairly neutral and read a lot of press coverage
                       from the major sources, and I remember they blame
                       Arafat for backing off at the last moment because
                       of the right of return.  And that's "vastly
                       misinformed".
                       \_ Well it's obviously an oversimplification.
                          I would imagine that could be true, if Israel was to
                          recognize right of return then probably Palestinians
                          would accept a lot of other compromises since after
                          all that would make most other things moot. Israel
                          has moved the negotiating away from right of return
                          altogether but to Palestinians this is a perfectly
                          reasonable right and was recognized by the U.N.
                          To them, the right of return is huge because it is
                          the whole basis of their position, the fact that
                          millions of Palestinians were expelled would imply
                          that some form of compensation could be expected
                          in a peace settlement even if no actual Palestinians
                          would actually return.
        \_ cuz nothing short of death to all jews is not good enuf
        \_ Palestinians are angry because the U.S. just traded the right of
           return and six blocs of the West Bank for withdrawal from the
           other parts of the West Bank and Gaza.
           \_ There was no right of return.  Anymore than Jews can ever
              return to their homes in the Arab countries they were kicked
              out of or fled from.
              \_ Tell that to the Palestinians
                 \_ I do believe we just did.
                    \_ Well, Bush did.  Anyway, hopefully this explains
                       why the Palestinians are angry.  Whether or not they
                       have a good reason to be angry, well, I'm not saying.
                       The Palestinians sure thought the right of return
                       was a legitimate point of negotiation, as well as
                       the return of all the occupied territories.
              \_ Two wrongs make a right? Because someone down the street
                 does me a wrong, makes it okay to do the same thing to
                 my neighbor? Plus, most Arab countries are welcoming
                 Joos back these days.
            \_ "six blocs" == about 1/3 of the West Bank
               \_ thanks, I didn't know that, but it sounds like a lot, and
                  I've been reading about the non-contiguous nature of the
                  remaining portions
           \_ Actually, I'd first like to see the "right of return" of
              Palestinians to the Arab countries they were kicked out of.
              After that we can start to talk about Joos.
              \_ Nah, Israel / the Palestinian territories is where there is
                 currently an occupation
                 \_ I'm not sure if this was sarcastic or not.
                    \_ It isn't.
                       \_ Soooo... It's ok for me to implement ethnic
                          cleansing if... what.  I'm confused.  All I'm
                          getting here is Jews can't do it, but Arabs can,
                          or "Ethnic Cleasers must have been the dominant
                          racial group for the last 1000 years."
                          \_ I think you've summarized the position of a large
                             segment of the world's population quite well.
                             Arabs are perpetrating a genocide this very moment
                             in Sudan, and no one seems to care.
                             \_ Do you think Sudan's a good point of reference?
                                Hail Israel! At least it's better than Sudan!
                                \_ Certainly if Sudan is worse than Israel, the
                                   world community should start there.  Fix
                                   the biggest problems first.  -- ilyas
                          \_ I'm not sure what you're saying, but
                             the basic idea is that the West Bank and Gaza
                             are currently being occupied, whereas
                             Palestinians aren't saying they are being
                             occupied in other countries.
              \_ What are you talking about? They are from Palestine, not
                 some other mythical "Arab countries" that is why they
                 call themselves Palestinians.
        \_ JOOS BAD! ARABS GOOD!
           \_ L4M3R! ARABS BAD!  JOOS GOOD!
              \_ YOU SUX0R!
                 \_ ARABS ARE HYPPOCRITES!
                    \_ YOU SUCKS AT SPELLING, JEW LOVER!@%@#!!
                       \_ W00t!
2004/4/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:13244 Activity:nil
4/16    Hamas_leader_002 go boom.  Long live Hamas_leader_003!
        \_ hey man, he needs to show he's not giving stuff away, so he
           can get the vote he needs for disengagement - what better way
           than to blow up terrorists?
        \_ hey man, #2 was a murderous piece of shit and earned his place in
           heaven with his 72 virgin brides.  kill them fast enough and the
           others will get the idea that being a terrorist leader isn't the
           fun flashy and lucrative adventure anymore it was for Arafat and a
           tiny cadre of his senior PLO buddies.
           \_ Yeah, its worked really well at stopping that terra so far!
              \_ ditto.  That, along with the promise of permantly occupies
                 westbank.
                 \_ *MAY BE* Sharon is making false promise of permantely
                    occupies Westbank for now, to build political support for
                    withdraw from Gaza.  At the same time, kill one or two
                    guys in Hamas to show they withdraw according to their
                    own will, not defeated by PLO.  Once withdraw from
                    Gaza is completed, *MAY BE* he will announce withdraw
                    from the Westbank as well.  It's just my personal fantacy,
2004/4/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:13188 Activity:very high
4/14    Bush alters U.S. Israel policy in joint press conference with Sharon.
        Bush praises Sharon's "historic and courageous" actions, and says the
        U.S. does not support the Palestinian "right of return", and the U.S.
        also supports the unilateral withdrawal of Israel behind its new wall.
        Israelis and Palestinians would be separated in this disengagement.
        Bush says he does not want the peace plan scrapped, but Palestinians
        say it would be if Sharon followed through.  Major newspapers say that
        Bush "endorses" proposal in which Israel would unilaterally keep some
        parts of the West Bank.  (Sorry, this last sentence is getting revised
        because the news sources are changing as well.)
        \_ Sharon: unilateral withdrawal from most of occupied territories
           which is exactly what the Palestinians say they wanted all along.
           Right of return: no one ever mentions all the Jews displaced from
           their homes in Arab countries.  If Israel were to be flooded with
           millions of returnees it would be the end of Israel.  This is a
           complete red herring and everyone involved knows this will never
           be allowed to happen.
           \_ Yes it is a red herring, but it has symbolic value to the
              Palestinians, as it amounts to Israel admiting it shouldn't have
              siezed the land.  It might be a good compromise if Israel said
              "Yes, you have a right of return, but only X-thousand per year,
               and old people get priority.  Oh, and only if you were born
               there.  No fiesty grandkids."
              \_ Why should they do this?  Are the Arabs letting Jews back in?
                 \_ In some countries, yes.
                    \_ Name them.
                    \_ then they kill them more easily
           \_ A big issue is that the right of return has been considered
              for decades as a point of negotiation, and in this sense, is
              definitely not a "red herring".  Bush just said, "No more
              negotiating.  Things have changed.  Why can we do it?
              'cause we can.  Now, is anyone going to do anything about it?"
              \_ Welcome to the way the world *really* works.  Might really
                 does make right and there's no negotiating with terrorists.
                 \_ If you really believe that might makes right, then
                    why do you even use the word "terrorist?" Are you just
                    trying to score political points?
                 \_ Well, Republicans would say that Bush is demonstrating
                    leadership.  Democrats would say Bush is being a dumbass.
                    leadership.  Democrats would Bush is being a dumbass.
                    I suppose the truth lies in between.
           The wall: if Indians or Mexicans were blowing shit up all over
           California and Texas, you bet your ass there'd be a wall built
           with 100% support in all 3 branches of government and every
           opinion poll.
           \_ yeah, except Mexico is a country, Palestine is not.
              \_ Palestine is an invaded land taken over by evil Jews with the
                 help of imperialist rich white westerners for the purpose of
                 humiliating the justly proud Palestinian peoples!  Huzzah!
                 \_ Bad troll, no cookie, see below.
                 \_ Pathetic attempt to avoid debating the subject.
          \_ Why would it be "the end of Israel"? Couldn't Israel become
             a multi-ethnic secular democracy, like the rest of the
             civilized world?
           Israel: evil sinful place that must be destroyed and replaced with
           oppressive anti-democratic gun toting jack boot thugs to make the
           world a better place.  Any world with fewer Jews is a better world.
           (That's your cookie, enjoy it).
           \_ There is already a wall built to keep Mexicans out. I guess
              Canadians are ok, though.
              \_ There isn't a wall.  You been to the border?  It goes on and
                 on for hundreds of miles with no wall, no patrols, no nothing.
                 Maybe it depends on what your meaning of "wall" is.  Is.  eh?
                 \_ Have you been to San Diego? There is a wall that runs for
                    many miles. The wall isnt' 3000 miles long (yet)  but it
                    certainly exists.
           \_ If Mexico had invaded the United States and the US had beaten
              them back and siezed the northernmost Mexican States, and then
              the Mexicans living in those states had demanded return of the
              land to Mexico, and the US had not only refused but had built
              a wall solidifying its control of the best parts of all of the
              land while the Mexicans living in those states had started
              blowing shit up in California and Texas, then you might have
              a reasonable analogy, but only tenuously.
              \_ Hey history genius, where the hell do you think CA/TX came
                 from?  The US invaded Mexico and *took* them and the Mexicans
                 are still pissed off about it and some even talk about a right
                 of return everytime immigration reform comes up.  When you
                 read a 3rd grade history book you can come back and talk with
                 the grownups about grownups things.  Jesus Christ, I don't
                 even know how to get across how deeply ignorant and stupid
                 your statements are.  READ A BOOK, DAMN IT!
                 \_ If you read the book then you'd know that:
                        A) Texas seceded on its own from Mexico, then asked
                           for Union membership.
                           \_ Don't get your history from watching "The Alamo".
                              The europeans settled on Mexican territory, and
                           for Union membership.
                              then stole it. End of story.
                        B) Similar thing happend with California (ergo Bear
                           Republic).
                        C) Latinos were complicit in both events and supported
                           the secession.
                            \_ And they were right to do it.  Compare Mexico
                               to America.  Which political system would YOU
                               have wanted to live under for the last 100
                               years?
                        D) The U.S. actually paid Mexico after the U.S./Mexican
                           war for the land.
                        E) We purchased another chunk of Mexico for the
                           railroad during the Gadsen Purchase.
                           Perhaps you should dig yourself up a copy of
                           Nivens and Commager and actually read up on
                           factual 19th century US history.
                           --williamc
                 \_ See, here's the part I enjoy: you didn't read my post, or
                    you'd've seen where I said "If Mexico had invaded the
                    United States."  For a literate monkey, you're still
                    pretty illiterate.
                    \_ Uhm, actually he did.  You're still an idiot (and
                       woefully ignorant to boot).  You REALLY need to read
                       that 3rd grade history text, chum.
                       \_ Oh, gawd, now I'm in a "yes-he-did, no-he-didn't"
                          argument with two morons.  The US invaded Mexico,
                          yes, I knew that.  To make the analogy work, though,
                          you have to have Mexico (i.e., the Arab nations)
                          invade the US (i.e., Israel).  THEN the ass-kicking
                          occurs, and THEN the landgrab occurs (rightfully
                          so, IMO).  The US-Mexico situation lacks the Mexico
                          as instigator component that makes Israel look
                          down-right commendable.
                          \_ See, the original proclamation of a Jewish state
                             was unjust. Imagine if a bunch of Mexicans come
                             and proclaim a new "American state" based on the
                             historical Indian presence (even if historically
                             it was small and over 1000 years ago, and a part
                             of larger empires normally). Oh and the new state
                             grants secondary status to people not of this
                             group. There's no justification for a "Jewish
                             state" as such, theocracy is a cultural issue and
                             needs to stay that way. History shows what an
                             absolute tragedy it is when theocracy gets into
                             government. (c.f. collapse of greco-roman
                             civilization, Muslim stagnation, European dark
                             ages, south american human sacrifice etc.).
                             \_ By that logic, there are no just
                                states today.  US is certainly not, they
                                seceded in armed conflict.  Most
                                countries are a very recent development, and
                                if not, their borders certainly were created
                                as a result of injust historical processes:
                                armed conflict, dynastic inheritance, colonial
                                aggression, etc.  Show me one just state.
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ Some of the Greek city-states formed
                                   voluntary alliances. There's also a
                                   distinction between armed secession and
                                   armed conquest. Having said that, the
                                   problem with Israel wasn't the state per se,
                                   as some kind of state was being implemented
                                   anyway, but the forced expulsions of the
                                   existing occupants and subsequent problems.
                                   This is not a staple feature of most other
                                   countries, even if there are obviously
                                   many examples.
                                   \_ 'Staple feature'?  What does that
                                      even mean?  The character of
                                      many modern countries was _defined_
                                      by the mass expulsions they performed,
                                      the example which is closest is
                                      obviously the Spanish Reconquista, where
                                      essentially all the muslim population of
                                      Spain was either converted at the point
                                      of the sword or driven off into Africa.
                                      Then there is the US and native Americans,
                                      the expulsion of Jews from Germany (Germany
                                      is still trying to get a sizeable Jewish
                                      population), etc, etc, etc.  Why are
                                      you singling out Israel?  Clarification
                                      of original question: show me one just
                                      state existing today. -- ilyas
                     Most of Europe was converted at point of the sword. _/
                     They were a bunch of pagans. That doesn't make it right.
                     Israel can easily be "singled out" because it's happening
                     in our time, in an age when we are well informed and have
                     and have international structures to try to prevent such
                     things. Germany wasn't created by the expulsion of Jews,
                     and besides, everyone agrees that the Nazi nation wasn't
                     just. It wasn't just German Jews they picked on either
                     I already stated there are many other examples (Turkey
                     is a big one IMO). But we seem to concern ourselves
                     with other such things like Kuwait or Serbia (or how
                     with other such things like Kuwait or Serbia (or how
                     about that Nazi Germany) so why are you singling out
                     Israel for exemption from criticism?
                     about that Nazi Germany) so why are you singling out
                     Israel for exemption from criticism? Oh and the Moors
                     conquered Spain first. And Germany was formed from the
                     union of Germanic kingdoms (yeah, those tribes probably
                     pushed some celts out or something, just like various
                     slavs pushed out germanics)
                     \_ Not at all.  I don't claim Israel should be exempt
                        from criticism, but using the 'injust state' as
                        a rationalization for any sort of action will simply
                        not work.  All modern states are 'injust.'  The same
                        argument applies with equal force to them.  I suggest
                        starting in alphabetical order instead of with the
                        letter 'i'.  Also, Israel is a democratic state,
                             civilization, Muslim stagnation, European dark
                             ages, south american human sacrifice etc.).
                                      of original question: show me one just
                                      state existing today. -- ilyas
                        not work.  All modern states are 'injust.'  The same
                        argument applies with equal force to them.  I suggest
                        starting in alphabetical order instead of with the
                        letter 'i'. -- ilyas
                        despite its injust roots, just as the US and Britain
                        are.  We are not recommending returning large parts
                        of the US back to the native americans, or large
                        parts of Britain back to the Celts.  Why is Israel
                        different? -- ilyas
                        \_ Israel's still occupying extra territories. Anyway
                           the point of the "not just" comment was in response
                           to some guy justifying Israel's land grabs. I never
                           said the main part of Israel should be given back.
                           \_ Then it seems you and the Palestinian Authority
                              are at odds.  Look at their flag (or seal).
                              Note the all-of-israel-shaped silhouette with
                              Palestinian colors.  They explicitly want it all.
                                -- ilyas
                              The US still occupies Native American land.
                              Surely you don't imply that just because the
                              landgrab happened some time ago, and there are
                              less indians left that it's suddenly ok for US
                              to keep the land, but not ok for Israel?  You
                              can't pick and choose. -- ilyas
        \_ Last desperate act of a man who knows he is going down. He will
           pull a Johnson any minute now.
           \_ Ok, i'll bite.  What exactly does "pull a Johnson" mean?
              \_ Pull the other one, mate, 's got bells on it.
              \_ Uhhuhuhu huhhuu huhuuh.  He said "pull my Johnson."  Huh huh.
              \_ "With America's sons in the fields far away, with America's
                  future under challenge right here at home, with our hopes
                  and the world's hopes for peace in the balance every day,
                  I do not believe that I should devote an hour or a day of
                  my time to any personal partisan causes or to any duties
                  other than the awesome duties of this office - the
                 round, maybe kill a few people, and then run away.
                   of interests.)
                 so don't care if they can be long gone.
                  Presidency of your country.
                  Accordingly, I shall not seek, and I will not accept,
                 round, kill a bunch of innocent Israelis, and then run away.
                  the nomination of my party for another term as your
                  President."
                Of course, that was a real President, not a phoney pretender.
                \_ Johnson? As in LBJ?  I take it your definition of a "
                   real President" is a disgusting liar who screwed this
                   country 60 ways from Sunday.  Quite frankly, I'd take
                   Bush over LBJ anyday.  Heck, I'd take Gore, Nixion,
                   and most lower life forms.  (Excluding viri and
                   bacteria dangerous to Human health.  We have a conflict
                   of interests.)
                   \_ "viri" isn't a word.
                      \_ "viruses" is the plural "virus," and "viri"
                         is an abbreviation from latin slang meaning
                         "i'm a pompous ass computer geek."
        \_ Israel belongs to the Jews.  Read Genesis 17.
        \_ The reason the "peace process" will end is the leverage the
           Palestinians had (blowing up Israelis) will be gone.
           \_ Why aren't the Palestinians using mortars?  Just lob a few and
              run away.  By the time they land and the IDF finds out where you
              launched from, you can be long gone.
              \_ a) they don't have them b) if they did, they'd get caught
                 running around with them c) even if no one got caught, IDF
                 exacts punishment on entire area d) they're suicidal anyway
                 so don't care if they can be long gone.
              \_ the idea is that you're much bigger to have killed yourself
                 and others in a "spectacular" attack, rather than lob a
                 round, maybe kill a few people, and then run away.
2004/4/8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:13078 Activity:moderate
4/7     http://www.senderberl.com/rice3.14.jpg
        \_ What are these guys, lysdexic?  http://Senderberl.com:  "Ralph Nadar",
           "Arnold Schwartzenegger"?  -John
        \_ My gawd, stop the miscegenation!  Who will think of the children!
2004/3/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12951 Activity:nil
3/31    So "strategy" = follow the herd?  Following the herd
        would definitely multiply our allies.  That's asinine,
        I admit.  Let's then say that Bush 1) Lobbied Congress to
        put three electric fences along our northern and southern
        borders. 2) Stop letting unmarried males of age 18-35
        of Muslim heritage into this country. 3) Had the police
        deport every illegal alien caught. Would he or would he
        not have been branded as racist and divisive? The
        murderers won't be happy until: 1) We abandon Israel
        2) You are praying to Mecca 5x a day 3) The women are
        wearing burqas.
        \_ why would praying to Mecca be so bad?  Aren't you essentially
           praying to Israel?
           \_ Christians and Jews back Israel because according to the
              Word of God, God's time for Israel's punishment was up;
              the Jews returned on schedule http://www.yfiles.com/y3nf.html
              To want the destruction of Israel is to be against God's
              people and God.  To love God's people and help them is to
              love God's plan.  It definitely grieve's God's heart
              to watch us kill His enemies without them accepting Jesus
              Christ.  I don't remember our support of Israel being openly
              questioned until the last two years, and the next step for
              the US for an incoming Democratic administration is
              abandoning God's people Israel, and that will end
              what remains of His blessing on this country.
              \_ people have questioned our support of israel for decades --
                 it's just because Israel has stepped up its "actions against
                 terrorism" that there are more people speaking up louder
        \_ I think Bush mishandled the diplomacy but I don't think you can
           realistically say we lost allies or increased enemies. We are
           still allied with all the same old allies, and have all the same
           old enemies. Where's the difference? There was just more bickering
           in NATO.
           \_ If you have chance, go outside of USA.  Anti-USA sentiment is
              at all time high, mostly due to our policy toward Iraq.
              \_ I doubt it (the mostly due to Iraq part). Where does this
                 matter? Not in Europe. China? They'd whip up people against
                 USA no matter what, because this furthers the autocratic
                 interests (but they also like US money). The Russians are
                 getting blown up themselves, I'm doubt in a few years that
                 Iraq alone will have been enough to make people hate the USA.
                 In the end, Saddam was such that defending him is laughable.
                 The problem for us is the huge costs we're incurring, which
                 IMO wasn't justified, and the credibility disaster of how
                 Bush chose to present and conduct the operation, which was
                 the only way they could win domestic support for it.
                 \_ The error in your thinking is that not seeing a reason
                    to attack Saddam is not the same as "defending him."
                    The error is so large that it clouds your entire
                    worldview.
                    \_ There were plenty of reasons to attack him and
                       everyone knows it. Ignoring that clouds YOUR
                       worldview.
                       \_ Why did almost everyone counsel against it then?
                          No valid reasons were given to the international
                          community. The only halfway decent one was
                          given ex post facto, which doesn't cut it.
                          \_ Saddam and his history was "enough" to attack him.
                             Anyway my point is that although it may have been
                             inadvisable, and people quibble with the means,
                             no one argues against the end, and it's not
                             changing who are our allies/enemies.
                             \_ That is your opinion and I disagree with it.
                                Read some opinion polls about how the world
                                regards America today compared with 2000.
                                \_ if you disagree show me an example. you're
                                   the one asserting that there's a difference.
                                   opinion polls are worthless, but i haven't
                                   seen one showing any substantive change.
                                   \_ link:csua.org/u/6pi
                                      Hope you have an Economist subscription
                                      http://csua.org/u/6pj
                                      Here is one that is free.
        \_ The world is not black and white, the way you seem to think
           that it is. Bush's father was able to assemble a coalition
           using diplomacy and kind words. Dubya drove everyone off with
           his strong words and bluster.
           \_ hey, you can't have everything all the time
           \_ Isn't it black and white to assume 1991=2001?
              \_ he didn't make that assumption.  -tom
                \_ You are right tom.  He didn't necessarily make such an
                   assumption.  But was Bush necessarily wrong to call 9/11
                   an evil act?  Perhaps it was hypocritical of us to call
                   Iraq/Afghanistan evil and invade them, and not give China
                   Korea, and Saudi Arabia the same treatment.  But was it
                   so off base as to be an outright lie?
                   \_ The mistake was lumping Iraq/Afghanistan together
                      like that. The whole world outside of a here could
                      see that they were very different cases. A true
                      friend and ally tells you when you are about to
                      make a big mistake, like Germany did.
2004/3/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12858 Activity:nil
3/25    http:\\apnews.myway.com\article\20040325\D81HG1480.html
        "The ad reflected growing sentiment among many Palestinian leaders
         and intellectuals that military struggle is not helping the
         Palestinian cause."
        Gee, Ya' Think, Sherlok?
        \_ what's the deal with the backslashes?
           \_ That's a ms window thing.
              \_ not for URLs it's not.
2004/3/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12843 Activity:nil
3/25    Another coward who doesn't understand the righteousness of the cause
        and that we must destroy the Zionist Entity by any means necessary.
        This collaborator's family will suffer our wrath for raising this
        Jew loving traitor and not disavowing his actions against us all.
        http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040324/D81GUJ3O0.html
         \_ "He doesn't know anything, and he has the intelligence of a 12
            year old," said his brother, Hosni.
             Wow, how would you like your family to say that about you
             to the international media? Ha!
             \_ err  ... to absolve him from responsibility as much as possible.
                apparently your intelligence is not much higher than his.
                \_ Yes, I knew that, moron.  Apparently you have the sense
                   of humor of a pregnant whale with morning sickness.
                \_ LOOK! it's Captain Obvious!
                   \_ Hosni will be the first punished for his crimes
                      against the people.
2017/11/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/22   

2004/3/24 [Recreation/Computer, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12841 Activity:nil
3/24    Oh, where is the outrage?
        http://www.poynter.org/content/content_view.asp?id=62930
        \_ From the article, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be
           outraged about.  He's a lying journalist, fire him, put him in
           prison, whatever they do these days.  I don't care what COLOR
           his is.  What's with all this crap about him being white?
           \_ Because dearie, when Jayson Blair was caught with his pants down
              the race card was played in full.  The column was satire, if you
              hadn't noticed.
              \_ Yeah, but that's because old Blair had played the
                 racecard to get where he was.  (Or at least the people
                 around him had.)
                 \_ Sorry, not taking your bait...
2004/3/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12840 Activity:high
3/24    Moroccan Jewish Leader: Killing of Hamas Founder "An Act of Bestiality"
        http://tinyurl.com/2js76
        http://csua.org/u/6l8  -- 3 chars shorter!
        \_ If you look hard enough, you will always find people who hate their
           own people, like the jews who collaborated with Nazis.  They're
           known as self-haters.
           \_ That's right. Just like how the Democrats hate America.
           \_ Why ya gotta be a player hater?
2004/3/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29875 Activity:nil
3/22    I think they should settle the whole Israel/Palestine conflict via
        professional wrestling.  Each people could have a wrestler
        representative, and all the chair-throwing and piledriver moves would
        satisfy people's lust for violence without anyone actually getting
        hurt.  They could even have the mat set up at the Temple on the Mount!
        \_ I'd like to see a bacon-eating contest.
        \_ but god granted the wrestling ring as holy land.
        \_ "DO YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKIN?"
           "Oi, this guy is meshuggunah..."
2004/3/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12794 Activity:high
3/22    Blow me, MOTD censor dickwit.  I posted a perefctly "legit" link,
        not that it's your job to judge.  As I said, cool shit:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3556099.stm   -John
        \_ Blind, paralyzed 67 year old man, confined to a wheelchair,
           assassinated by missles fired from a helicopter. Reason:
           he was a threat to Israel's security.
           \_ Why didn't Israel just arrest him?
              \_ They were trolling the motd.
           \_ Oooh, good troll.  No bites, though, troll harder!
        \_ then why you kept erasing my post?
        \_ John, killing him is not going to solve the problem.  Elimate
           Hamas is not going to resolve the problem.  You do need to carry
           out genocide on Palestinian people, reduce their population to
           insignificant number (similiar to the native American in USA) to
           solve that problem... if you want to solve th problem using
           violence.
           \_ "The problem" is intractable.  There is no solution that doesn't
              involve the destruction of Israel or moving a few million Arabs
              from Gaza and the WB into other Arab countries that don't want
              the black sheep of Islam.
              \_ Why stop at Gaza and the WB? Why is that going to be enough?
                 There will be no peace for Israel until every living Arab
                 is exterminated.
                 \_ No cookie.  Sorry.  Maybe you'll catch me in a foul mood
                    some other time and I'll feed you then.  I just had a 3
                    hour lunch so you're not getting fed today.
        \_ Wow, for a bunch peace loving people who just want equal rights
           the Palestinians sure were broken up about the death of that
           mass murderer...
           \_ He incited violence.  He didn't murder anyone.  While inciting
              violence is a crime.  It's nothing near being a capital offence.
              The fact that Israel is assassinating people for their political
              ranting shows that neither side has any moral legitimacy in this
              conflict.
              \_ so did Hitler, he just ordered people killed
              \_ That's all fine and dandy in your highly controlled and very
                 law and order western society.  This is a war, not a civil
                 disobedience issue.  Do you think we should send the FBI to
                 arrest bin Laden, too?  Some people are beyond the law
                 especially in places where there is no law.  He was the law.
                 \_ They did arrest him and put him in prison for 8 years.
                    Then they let him go for some reason.  Why did they
                    release him if he's so dangerous?
                    \_ Because Israel is still a law abiding western society
                       and the current 'war' hadn't started yet.  It was a time
                       of relative quiet and the palestinians hadn't stuck the
                       knife in yet.
           \_ Hamas is a social organization that brings food to the poor,
              educates children, provides jobs to the jobless and brings hope
              to the hopeless in a war torn area in a fight the people didn't
              ask for.  The man is a martyr and a victim.  How can you not see
              the good that Hamas does for the people?  The poor guy was in a
              wheel chair?  How could he be responsible for anyone's death?
              This was an unjustified, cowardly act, very unlikely to achieve
              peace in the area and very very bad news for the Middle East
              peace process.  The only way to stop the violence is for the
              Israelis to stop killing Palestinian children, women, and old
              crippled men with their American build missiles and leave *all*
              of the Palestinian territories.  We must go back to the pre-1947
              lines.  Violence only begets violence, so the next time a bunch
              of Israeli teens get killed at a pizza parlor, disco, or a
              university cafeteria by a Palestinian martyr, they should know
              they've brought this upon themselves.  For every Palestinian
              victim of Israeli aggression and illegal occupation there should
              be a thousand Israeli children killed on buses, in school and out
              on the town.  Once the Jews are driven into the sea, there shall
              finally be peace in the Middle East and then we can look to
              bringing the same peace to Europe, starting with France and
              Spain.
                \_ Yassin has stated in several interviews that he supports
                   suicide attacks on Israeli civilians.  Here's one with
                   Die Welt:
                   http://tinyurl.com/24t5m  and one with the BBC:
                   http://tinyurl.com/2by97   -John
                   \_ It's kinda disturbing when the greatest dreams
                      parents can think of for their children is to
                      become human bombs.
                      \_ Golda Meir, "we will have peace when palestinian
                         mothers love their children more than they hate Jews."
                \_ thanks for illustrating what the attitude problem is.
                   You are blind.  One does not need to build a bomb with
                   his own hands to be responsible for leading others to do
                   the actual work.  You say 'violence begets violence', but
                   yet you do not equally condemn the Palestinians for killing.
                   Almost every cease fire, or peace accord, is broken by yet
                   another suicide bomber, who believes there should be no
                   negotiation, just unilateral withdrawl.  For every one, you
                   claim blood of a thousand.  Where is the equality in that?
                   With that statement, you imply a belief in the superiority
                   of one group over another.  You'd fit well alongside the
                   Nazis. I'm all for a separate Palestinian state, and I
                   dislike a lot of Israel's actions and responses, but I
                   can't say the Palestinians aren't part of the problem
                   either.
                   \_ I call Godwin's Law on you.
                   \_ Pay attention to the next cease fire. It will probably
                      be broken by an Isreali attack, just like the last one
                      was. Sharon is no more interested in peace than Hamas is.
                      \_ No, pay attention to the past.  Once you see who
                         started the last few years worth of terrorism and
                         upped the ante with suicide bombers you'll start to
                         understand why the Israelis do what they do.  If you
                         were allowed to settle the issue, what would you do?
                         Tell Israel to go back to pre-67 borders?  Close all
                         the check points and give free and open access to the
                         entire country to every Palestinian?
                         \_ On the other hand, Israel has been continously
                            creating new settlements settling Joos from
                            all over the world coming back to Israel on
                            Palestinian land.
                            \_ I disagree with the current settlement policy,
                               however that is not the root cause of the arabs
                               sending their own children into civilian crowds
                               wearing bombs.
                   \_ I'm pretty sure that was satire man.
                      \_ Yeah.  He had me going up until that disco line.
                         \_ disco?  that was the tip off?  so you're unaware
                            of how many Israeli teens were killed in the last
                            2-3 years in Israeli discos? sigh...like pearls....
                            \_ No, silly boy, the tip off was the part where
                               the author said that Israeli teens getting
                               blown up in discos should realize that they'd
                               brought it upon themselves.  Of course, you'd
                               rather curse the darkness than light a candle,
                               I understand why you jumped to that conclusion.
                      \_ Problem is, there are people who honestly think this
        \_ there was a time when Muslim world are the heaven for Jews who
           are escaping prosecution from Christian church.  I wonder how
           many people remember that.
           \_ was that before or after mass conversions to Islam by the sword?
              \_ after _and_ before.  after the North African conversion by
                 the sword and before the fanatics came to power in Iberia.
                 \_ so the ones who didn't get killed or forced to convert
                    found Islam a haven of open mindedness?  cool.
                    \_ willful child. they mostly emigrated to Islamic
                       kingdoms after the mass conversions and before the
                       rise of the fanatics.  many of them immigrated when the
                       latter came to power.
                       \_ When was this period "before the rise of fanatics"?
                          The whole religion started on day one that way.
                          \_ Nice and glib, but you're completely ignoring the
                             Islamic Renaissance of the late first Milennium.
                             Go visit a place called a "library" and read some
                             interesting things called "books" before posting
                             anything else.
                             \_ Islamic Renaissance? hahaha. they are still
                                living in the dark ages twink
                                \_ Are you trying to look stupid?
                                   \_ No, he's accurate and the truth hurts.
                                      The IR is a period of time they were
                                      advancing faster than Europe in terms of
                                      technology and math but they were still
                                      religious fanatics, primitives, and
                                      incredibly barbaric by our western
                                      standards today.  They never left the
                                      middle ages.  They still whine about
                                      500+ year 'transgressions' by countries
                                      and people that don't even exist anymore.
                                      \_ 500+ years?  That's nothing.  Jews
                                         claim right to a land they left
                                         2000 years ago.
                    \_ I am not sure that "open mindedness" is the right
                       word, but Jews were treated better in the Ottoman
                       Empire than in Christian Europe.
                       \_ The word you are looking for is 'expediency.'
                          The Ottomans knew that tolerance was the only way
                          to run a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-
                          cultural state (which included that haven of
                          tranquility, the Balkans). -- ilyas
                          \_ Is it bad to be tolerant for the sake of
                             expediency?  Is Putin's being tough a stance
                             of principle?
                             \_ I wasn't making a value judgement.  Also,
                                you can't argue with results. -- ilyas
                                \_ how does the ottomans compare
                                   with the russians on their treatment
                                   of jews historically?
                                   \_ The jews were always persecuted in
                                      Russia (Czarist and Communist).
                                      The word 'pogrom' is a Russian word.
                                      Email me for a longer account if you
                                      are interested. -- ilyas
                          \_ they did try to genocide the christian
                             armenians though.
                             \_ Your point is valid, but your use of the word
                                is not.  s/genocide/commit genocide against/
                                \_ I realize that, but I think we should
                                   allow it to be used as a verb or invent
                                   a verb version.  maybe genocize.
                                   ethnically cleanse is awkward,
                                   exterminate is possible but not specific
                                   enough.  "commit genocide against" is
                                   too long, and I am lazy.
                                   \_ You want a verb form of a word made up
                                      to evoke moral outrage and loathing
                                      because the alternatives are too long
                                      and you are lazy?  This truly is the
                                      end of the Roman Empire.
                                      \_ what's the big deal?  this happens
                                         all the time.  eg. "google" is
                                         now used as a verb.
                                         \_ The big deal is that google is not
                                            synonymous with death and misery.
                                            Genocide is.
                                            \_ I don't see the relevancy
                                               of "death and misery" to
                                               the argument.
2004/3/17-18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12727 Activity:nil
3/17    In American Pie, is Jim suppose to be Jewish?
        \_ James is a Christian name.
           \_ So everyone named James is Christian?
              \_ I would not try to claim that I know what every single
                 person on the planet earth might decide name their kid.
        \_ He *looks* like a Jew, right?  But he doesn't wear one of those
           beanie hates so maybe he isn't....
        \_ the character's last name is "Levinstein".
           \_ thats a jew name?
2004/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12714 Activity:insanely high
3/17  It is a cold day in hell when I agree with Patrick Buchanan
      and here I do:
      http://www.amconmag.com/3_1_04/cover.html
      \_ I think that guy is so all over the map politically that it's
         inevitable to agree with him on something eventually.  Even
         a broken clock reads right twice a day.
         \_ No.  He's very consistent.  He simply doesn't fit your nice
            little left/right spectrum.  Not all of us do.
            \_ Perhaps.  More likely, it's because I don't agree with the
               jews, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend, on this
               neocons, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend, on this
               issue.
                 \_ I'm with you on that one.  I hate the jews, too, and if we
               [Yes, yes, you're very clever substituting "jews" for
                "neocons."  We get it.  Now fuck off.]
               \_ I'm with you on that one.  I hate the joo, too, and if we
                  leave the arabs alone for a while, I'm sure they'll
                  eventually get it together and wipe them out.  Just a few
                  short years and the Zionist entity will collapse and the
                    invaders are driven into the sea.
                  all the lands will return to the rightful owners after the
                  invaders are driven into the sea.
         I guess he is more of an isolationist, than some other label
         which people painted him.
           \_ He's always been an isolationist. This is nothing new.
      \_ GO PAT! GO!
                  \_ Sure you do. You can spot a Right Wing troll from
                     a mile away.
                     \_ No, I was showing you what you sound like.  Mockery
                        is a very simple and common rhetorical technique that
                        I thought even the motd could see and understand.  I
                        was mistaken.  Next time I'll put <mockery></mockery>
                        tags around it so dunderheads like you will know.
                        \_ No one sounds like that to anyone, except in your
                           paranoid and delusional brain. No one on the
                           motd says "I hate the jew, too" except for
                           Right Wing psycho trolls like yourself. Learn
                           to distinguish between disagreeing with Isreal's
                           policies and a desire to kill all Jews. Or
                           forever be marginalized by normal, non-hate filled
                           people.
                           \_ You sound like that to me.  Your petty insults
                              don't change anything or cover your racist
                              attitudes.  It's odd how you went from calling
                              Israel your enemy (your word choice) to simply
                              'disagreeing with their policies'.  You're a
                              hater and a racist and you're caught red handed
                              smearing the motd with it.  Tough shit, it's too
                              late to pretend otherwise now.  Why don't you
                              just erase all this instead and pretend you're
                              still a good and just person?
                              \_ First of all, you are responding to a
                                 different person than the one who wrote
                                 the "enemy of my enemy" phrase. Not everyone
                                 who disagrees with you is the same person.
                                 Secondly, it is a phrase, not taken literally
                                 by normal, sane people. Does any individual
                                 consider themselves the "enemy" of a sovereign
                                 power? No one I know. And how is disagreeing
                                 with Likud's policies "racist" again? Are
                                 Isrealis a race? Is the Likud party a race?
                                 Awaiting your reply. The only one who said
                                 they hated all the jews was you, remember.
                             \_ Note that the enemy phrase was applied to
                                "neocons". --some other guy
                                \_ Yeah, but psycho guy decided that he
                                   would change this into "jew" and then
                                   go on a rant about how anyone who
                                   disagreed with the neocons was really
                                   an Anti-Semite who wanted to kill all
                                   the Jews. Interesting political debate
                                   tactic, I must admit.
      \_ very interesting, I also agree with him in this regard.
2004/3/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12708 Activity:nil
3/16    A tribute to Rachel Corrie.  God bless her soul.
        http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004796
        And a big 'fuck you' to who ever has been erasing this.  You hater!
        \_ Pot. Kettle. Black.
           \_ But the difference is, I'd take Jews over Palestinians any
              day.
              \_ I know you would because you are prejudiced SOB who
                 sees no value in Arab life. I would take a good person
                 of any religion or nationality. Too bad you are too
                 blinded by your hate to see that there is good and
                 bad on both sides.
                 \_ There is bad on both sides but I'd take a democracy that
                    provides full freedom to women over fascist dictatorship
                    that murders 'collaborators' on the stree in cold blood
                    with no trial and conducts mock elections when they bother
                    to pretend to have them, or sends their *children* out
                    on the street carrying *suicide bomb belts*!  I'll respect
                    Arab life when they start to respect Arab life.
                    \_ It's not a Democracy when almost half of those under
                       its rule have no vote. The Isrealis have killed
                       more Palestinian civilians than visa versa. Your
                       worldview is seriously twisted by the lies you
                       have been fed.
                       \_ there are more dead palestinians that israelis. you
                          seriously believe every palestinian death was an
                          innocent civilian?  no, the numbers all get lumped
                          into a "score board" with only 2 numbers.  It's a
                          democracy and it's the only one in the entire
                          middle east.  You have feelings for the palestinians?
                          Not even other Arabs give a shit about them.  Get
                          real.  They don't even care about their own children.
                          \_ There are at least four classes of citizen.
                             Only Jews have full rights:
                             http://csua.org/u/6gh
                             How do you call that a Democracy?
                 \_ Not so much.  It's just the Jews have, and continue to
                    make, a large number of contributions to the world at
                    large.  Not to meantion they haven't attempted large
                    scale genocide since about... oh... 5000BC.
                    \_ Your celebration of the death of a brave and
                       noble human being who selflessly tried to
                       save a few innocent's homes just shows how far
                       your hatred and depravity has lowered you to.
                       I honestly think you need psychological help.
                       \_ Did you even read the link?  She was trying to save
                          'homes' that were being used to move weapons into
                          the Gaza strip so the Palestinians could make more
                          bombs belts to strap on 12 year olds.  You honestly
                          need to learn to read before resorting to ad hominen.
                          \_ That is a lie. Your entire link is ad hominem.
                             She died trying to save the home of Dr. Samir
                             Nasrallah who has never been charged by the
                             IDF of any crime.
             http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/09/ma_497_01.html
             http://www.yesmagazine.org/26courage/halper.htm
                       \_ What's a lie?  That 12 year olds are carrying bomb
                          belts?  That weapons are flowing under tunnels from
                          the Sinai to Gaza?  Give it up.  I'm not even going
                          to waste the network bits to read the leftist trash
                          from links like mother jones.  You might as well be
                          posting from the democraticunderground site.
                          \_ The claim that Rachel Corrie was protecting
                             a tunnel is a lie. And you are a lying and
                             twisted fuck who seriously needs help.
                       \_ Hmmm.. Maybe you're right.  I was thinking that
                          supporting terrorists that kill civilians made
                          her enemy support personnel.  Maybe all she
                          really deserves is a Darwin award.
                          \_ Because all Palestinians are terrorist scum and
                             must be cleansed, right?
                \_ Ok, I admit it.  There's wrong on both sides.  But it's
                   going to continue until:
                   A) The Palestinians successfully kill all the Jews.
                   B) The Jews get tired of trying to put up with them and
                      finally kill all the Palestinians.
                   C) The Palestinians learn to police themselves and stop
                      encouraging their children to wear bomb belts.
                   THIS IS A WAR, and one side is totally fanatical about
                   killing the other, and will not settle for anything
                   less.  Civilians die in wars too, it's a sad truth.
                   I'm sorry I'm the one who has to break it to you.
                   \_ The Israelis are willing to have peace.  The other side
                      only wants pieces.  Has the PLO taken that bit out of
                      their charter that says their goal is to eliminate
                      Israel and kill all the Jews?
                      \_ They removed the part that called for the
                         destruction of Isreal years ago. They never
                         called the death of all Jews. That is more
                         of your propaganda.
                   \_ It's not a war, it's an military occupation that has
                      lasted 40 years. Israel builds settlements and so forth
                      regardless of terrorist activity.
                   \_ Because IT IS WAR, in your words, it is okay to
                      celebrate the death of a non-violent innocent?
        \_ Need I say, that this URL is pretty hateful?
2004/2/15 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12266 Activity:nil
2/15    Israel! Palestine! Bush! Pine!  Global warming! Outsourcing to India!
        \_ Cutting government spending, and then cutting taxes, followed
           by building more houses to cut the cost of houses (a.k.a.
           increasing supply to lower costs) will do much to cut the
           cost of American labor.
2004/2/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Computer/SW/Security] UID:29796 Activity:very high
2/10    I'm beginning to think mandatory military service should be instituted
        in the USA, say for 2 years after high school. It would help all these
        kids to grow up, learn to be away from home and stop being pansies.
        They'd be older and more mature going into college, and maybe have a
        better sense of direction and perspective in life. It would force rich
        kids to serve alongside poor kids and make people care more about US
        policy and think about what it means to live here.
        \_ Back in MY day, sonny, we walked six miles uphill through the snow
           to do our military service! [again, restored]
           \_ Uphill both ways?
        \_ This isn't Israel or Singapore where land is scarce and border
           security requires every able body to participate in the armed
           forces. Having such a large non-volunteer force would have no
           practical value to the security of this country
           \_ Ok 2 years is too much, I was just reading how Euro countries do
              it. 9 mo. would still be good, plus there is the possibility of
              alternate service in something like Peace Corps. There is all
              kinds of stuff they could do. There are lots of non-combat roles
              in all the military branches too.
              \- would you make females and homosexuals serve? --psb
2003/12/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:11575 Activity:nil
12/23   Boring MOTD, so I will spice it up:
        http://www.adc.org/index.php?id=1789
        Details Isreali PR campaign to get more US tax dollars.
2003/12/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:11528 Activity:nil
12/18   Freedom Tower:
        http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/12/19/wtc.plan/index.html
        \_ that doesn't sound too bad.
           \_ Libeskind is impressive.  I visited the Jewish Museum in Berlin.
              One of the most overtly effective and affecting examples of
              architecture i've seen.  --scotsman
              \_ I like it too.  It's like giving the terrorists the finger.
                 A tasteful, shiny finger.
                 \_ or a big sinful erection pointing at Allah.
                    \_ also, as someone unlikely to actually work in the
                       trade center, i'm glad to hear there'll be a
                       restraunt.
2003/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:11414 Activity:nil
12/11   Why not give the fence a chance?
        http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20031209-085525-4213r.htm
        \_ Because the wall basically divides the West Bank Palistines into
           two enclaves where Isreal controls movement between the two. It
           also assumes annexation of 50% of West Bank (the part with access
           to water and Syria) to Israel.
        \_ Yay!  Moonie Times link!  Why not post a freeper link and a
           national review online link while you're at it?
           \_ It is an opinion piece. Are you so threatened by the moonies
              that you cannot stand to even read their opinions?
              \_ There are conservative opinions worth considering, like
                 William F. Buckley, William Safire, George Will, and
                 Chief Justice Rheinquist.  Then there are conservative
                 opinions from uninformed whackos like the Moonies that aren't
                 even worth the effort required to stomach them.  They make
                 great birdcage lining, though.  --motd liberal
                 \_ Safire, Will, Rehnquist:  all dumbasses. -motd moderate
        \_ This editorial does not address at all the very good reasons to
           not have a wall, which a motd poster has summarized.
        \_ Question: What's Israel's justification for building the part of
           Wall that separates West Bank cities from Jordan, thus separating
           the West Bank from the only Arab neighbor? Does Israel expect to
           annex that strip of land?
           \_ perhaps trying to cut off west bank palestinian terrorists from
              support in other arab land?
              \_ Wasn't the wall supposed to prevent the terrorists from
                 crossing into Israel? Besides terrorist support, this wall
                 cuts the west bank from its only link to Arab world and this
                 will certainly have big economic and cultural ramifications
                 for West Bank. Keeping West Bank people poor and desperate,
                 will only breed even more hate and terrorists.
                 \_ Yes, it's for security reasons.  It's certainly not
                    vengeful collective punishment or a land grab.
                    \_ Actually, Sharon is waving the implied threat of
                       "If you Palestinians continue to act this way,
                       then you don't deserve this land, and the land will
                       end up as a negotiating chip at least."
        \_ Q: Why should Israel worry about the economic or cultural
           ramifications of this move on a bunch of people who's main
           desire is to kill Israelis?  The Palestinians have shown no
           desire to settle on any peace other than making all the Jews
           dead.
           \_ And we all know that the actions of a society's most extremist
              members accurately reflects the wishes of that whole society.
              Timothy McVeigh blew up the OK Federal Building, and all white
              midwesterners want to violently overthrow the federal government.
              \_ I believe by this point the entire palestinian society is
                 geared towards the destruction of israel and killing of jews.
                 There are certain individual palestinians who do not advocate/
                 support/participate in this, of course, but this doesn't
                 change the facts.  Just google for some information on official
                 palestinian schools, and the kinds of things their children
                 are being taught.  It's simply a monstrous situation.
              \_ Red Herring.  The difference is obvious.  The chosen
                 leader of midwesterners is not quoted as encouraging
                 midwestern children to strap bombs to themselves and blow
                 up washington.
                 \_ Which leader is that? Arafat renounced terrorism
                    years ago.
                    \_ And all the murders in jail claim innocence, what's
                        your point?
                        \_ People are not allowed to change? Circumstances
                           don't ever change? It would seem odd to me that
                           you would not want to bring your enemies over
                           to your side. Maybe you prefer to have enemies.
                           \_ That would be fine if it were possiable.
                              It's pretty obvious that Arafat is not
                              working for peace.  Or he would have signed
                              the numerous agreements he's had.  Besides
                              if the Palestinians wanted a peaceful
                              leader, they would switch leaders.  Not keep
                              the same one who's "changed."
                           \_ Which is more dangerous, an enemy on the
                              other side of a wall, or an enemy on "your
                              side?"
           \_ ^The Palestinians^the radical Palestinian elements
           \_ Yup.  Sang niggers the lot.  Just nuke em and get it over with.
2003/11/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:11224 Activity:kinda low
11/25   Farmer's house to be destroyed in a matter of hours.
        Just remember you never really own property in this country.
        If the government wants it, too bad.
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1028759/posts
        \_ what does it mean in the comments section when freepers say
           "bump?"  Is that like "Heil Bush?"
           \_ if it means the same thing as on various other boards, then
              it means to bump the thread back up to the top in the thread
              index. it works because posts that show activity get moved up.
        \_ Bzzt. As with so many freeper links, this does not contain enough
           info to make an informed judgement.  Does this building constitute
           an asbestos hazard?  Is this a living unit?  What were Farmer
           Avery's responses to the letters sent by the Supervisor?  Does the
           county intend to claim the land under eminent domain?  Give us
           more info and less sloganeering.  --erikred
        \_ Read the constitution. it's called immenient domain.
                                              \_ eminent
           \_ Not only do you not know how to spell, you don't know your
              Constitution.  The Fifth Amendment ends, "nor shall private
              property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
              That's a right for the people, not the government.  In this
              case, the property is not being taken, it is not being used
              for the public, and the property that is being destroyed is
              not being compensated for.  The government contends this guy's
              home was being used improperly and is destroying it.  Unless
              due process didn't occur, this is Constitutionally okay.  Sucks
              for him, but sometimes due process doesn't get nice results.
              Further, saying "you never really own property in this country"
              is fallacious.  It's like saying "you never really own your own
              body" because there are limits on abortion and the death penalty
              exists.  Or because you can be jailed.  In this country,
              property rights are far greater than in most.
        \_ I think it is funny that the same yahoos that celebrate when
           Iraqi or Palastinian homes are demolished get all up in arms
           when it happens to one of them.
           \_ Yeah, because inhabiting your own property because you're
              tired is just as bad a crime as killing innocents for political
              advantage.
           \_ I didn't see in the article where Farmer Bob blew anyone up,
              shot down any planes, set off any bombs, or sent his brainwashed
              children off to a pizza parlor to kill himself and some kids.
              \_ Neither did most of those people in Palestine either. They
                 just happened to live in the same village.
        \_ It's a communist plot from America-hating democrats!
           \_ Fascist, actually.
2003/11/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:11120 Activity:nil
11/18   http://csua.org/u/50z
        All praise the religion of peace!
        \_ It's Israel's fault.  Says so right in the article.
2003/10/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10845 Activity:high
10/29   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/middle_east/3221079.stm
        Rabbis back Israeli 'guard pigs'   -- Mohammed Rosenberg
        \_ All the pigs have laser beams attached to their heads.
           Every creature deserves a warm meal.
        \_ Nothing in the kosher laws says you can't go near a pig or use it
           as a guard pig or anything else.  You just can't eat one because
           of health reasons.
             \_ The best thing to do is feed them to pigs;  you gotta starve
                the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped up body
                will look like curry to a piss head.
             \_ nothing in the "kosher law" says anything about "health"
                \_Poorly cooked pork may contain Trichinella parasites,
                  amongst other things. It's why you should really cook pork
                  thoroughly before consuming it. Trichinella is very nasty,
                  causing death due to heart failure if not treated.
                  \_ umm... the chance of getting trichinosis in the US is
                     smaller than the chance of getting struck by lightning.
                     http://www.cbbqa.com/notes/Trichinosis.html
                \_ its common sense.  all the forbidden animals are bottom
                   feeds and filth eaters.  the laws aren't random.  it was
                   a way to let the people know what was ok or not to eat.
                   ask your rabbi.
2003/10/29 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10833 Activity:moderate
10/29   http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv.html
        In particular:
            http://www.isratv.com/video/3c.asx
            http://www.isratv.com/video/2b.asx
            http://www.isratv.com/video/2a.asx
            \_ What is the point of posting this stuff on the motd?
               If you're in neee of an intelligent discussion, then you
               must know there are much better places.  And if you just
               want another flamewar...how utterly boring and predictable.
               The csua motd truly has sunk to new depths of stupidity.
               \_ oh yeah, where?  in discussion groups on the net at large
                  there is a
                  dominant ethos and everyone else is a troll or heckler.
                  on the motd there is no dominant ethos.  I've learned
                  *a lot* from being opened up to ways of thinking different
                  from my own on the motd that I would never have learned from
                  participating in some one-sided love fest on a discussion
                  board where i agree with everyone.  If you haven't learned
                  anything from those who you disagree with, it's your loss.
                  \_ Oh, its the "I've-learned-a-lot-from-the-motd-guy."  You
                     should setup housekeeping with "UCLA-CS-guy" and
                     "freeper-guy" and the ChiCom troll and make babies.
        \_ This is Zionist propaganda - Jews control the world!!
           Actually I've told by expat Syrians, Armenians, etc.
           that many of the suicide bombers have mental problems
           and are heavily recruited by PLO, Hamas etc. because of
           their vulnerability.
           \_ Uhm... Armenians? How did they show up on this thread?
                \_ Well they do border Iran and Turkey.
2003/10/26-27 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10795 Activity:high
10/25   http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/26/Columns/Anti_Semitism_s_globa.shtml
        So if Jews control the world, why didn't I get the memo?  I want to
        know where to signup for my piece.  I'd like something with a beach
        and friendly natives to keep the drinks flowing and the food fresh.
        Thanks!  --Salary slave Jew who stood in the wrong line
        \_ you lose.  you are not really one of the 12 tribes.
           \_ I don't think you understand how it works.  EVERYONE who was
              born of a jewish mother is a descendant of the 12 tribes.  Now
              most people don't KNOW what tribe they belong to... but that's
              a different story. -- Jew
              \_ does that count for mothers who converted too?
                 \_ no because she's definitely not one of the 12 tribes.  if
                    she can prove a connection to starbuck, apollo, or lorne
                    greene then she can appeal to the elders of zion.
                    \_ So Sammy Davis Jr isn't a chosen one?
           \_ Hey I'm totally from one of the 12 tribes.  None of this lost
              battlestar galactica 13th tribe funny business for me!  I just
              want my piece of the world!  Is one small beach and some friendly
              natives so much to ask when the rest of my people are running
              the whole world?  --op
              \_ Sorry, we don't have your piece of the world.  You are
                 asking the wrong people.
                 asking the wrong people.  And thanks for your insulting
                 patronization of us natives.
        \_ I think Mahathir is still pissed that George Soros screwed his
           country during the Asian financial crisis.
           \_ if your country got fucked half as hard, you would of
              tossing nuclear warheads instead of just bitching about
              Jews
2003/10/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10646 Activity:low
10/15   What the FUCK is wrong with these people?
        The "Jews control the world" notion is supposed to be limited
        to dumbshits. -nerdy asian
                 \_ you mean shiites?
        http://csua.org/u/4pw
        \_ It is, what's your point?
        \_ agree, Jews controls US foreign policy, thus, in effect,
           control the world.
           \_ do you also believe there's a conspircy among long dicked black
              men to rape your white wife?  back to the 50's, you neanderthal.
        \_ may be this would make you feel better, Malaysia has been
           racially discrimiting ethnic Chinese for DECADES.  So, Jewish
           boys and girls, you are not alone.
           \_ no, it doesn't.  as a jew I don't think its ok that the malai
              or anyone else are discriminating against more than just my
              people.  i feel as badly for the kurds, for example, as i do for
              my own.  the irish.  the tibetans.  what remains of the american
              indians and those still there in southern mexico.  and anyone
              else you can think of who is abused for nothing more than being
              different from the majority population.  i hope you thought you
              were being funny (you weren't) because the alternative is truly
              sickening.
              \_ It's not that simple. They are not "abused" just for being
                 "different from the majority". The chinese and jews control
                 much of the economic power and make up the business class.
                 There's much more to this than what the Kurds/Irish/Tibetans
                 have going on.
                 \_ Yet another racist canard.  Please post your url that
                    proves the banks, businesses, etc are owned by those evil
                    zoggian jews and their wicked chinese business associates.
                    The very thought itself is standard racist drivel meant to
                    create an "us vs them" dichotomy so it's easier for the
                    weak minded to hate people they've never met.  Again, I
                    would ask you to keep your racist fears of The Other off
                    the motd.  I doubt anyone wants to hear your concerns about
                    black men with large dicks raping your wife, the vietnamese
                    family across the street dognapping your pet for a meal or
                    how you *know* that arab taxi driver went the wrong way
                    intentionally so he could fuck you for an extra buck.
2003/10/10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10569 Activity:nil
10/9    Suppose I go on a cruise and the ship is in international water
        where there is no jurisdiction from any government. What would
        happen if there is murder or drug dealings or pot growing? Who
        regulates and who enforces?
        \_ The captain throws you overboard.  -John
        \_ this is one of those things that the cruise lines don't
           want you to think about
        \_ or, hypothetically, brainwash people into your bullshit
           made-up religion...
           http://www.scientology.org/en_US/religion/groups/pg011.html
           \_ hint: all religions are made up.
        \_ Nothing happens. I once raped 11 chicks on this one cruise. -kobeB
           \_ "This one goes to eleven!"
        \_ Doesn't the country where the ship is registered have jurisdiction?
           If you and a chick voluntarily swim say 10ft away from the ship, and
           then you rape her, that I don't know.
        \_ Every square inch of this planet is under the legal jurisdiction of
           some government and if they don't really have it they'll take it
           anyway if your crime is serious enough.
           \_ yep this is the de facto answer -- the de jure answer is the
              country of registry has jurisdiction. however, liberia and
              panama cannot be said to have global law enforcement
              capabilities. --aaron
        \_ Typically the person's country of citizenship will enforce its
           law.
           \_ Really?  So how about, oh say, when some Arabs toss an old
              Jewish guy in a wheel chair overboard after taking over the
              ship at gun point?
                \_ They make a bad opera out of it and punish everyone else.
                   Collective suffering, you know.  -John
        \_ Ever hear of International Law?
           \_ Yes, no such thing.  Where are the International Police and the
              International Judges and the International Jails and under which
              International Government do these 3 branches report to and why
              have I yet to get a summons for International Jury Duty?
2003/10/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29558 Activity:nil
10/6    I love this shit. This is not helping Middle Peace cause.  Further,
        I think North Korean has the right to "defend itself" as well :p
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3169402.stm
        \_ Please restore properly.
        \_ Ho hum, more anti-Israel trolling?  Bored of Arnold?  Ok, here goes:
           NK civilians aren't being attacked in NK cafes a few times a week.
           Troll fed.  Now go away.
           \_ Wasn't much of a troll. It only caught you, and you're under the
              legal limit.
2003/10/6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10493 Activity:moderate
10/6    This is a serious troll. Who thinks Israel's action is a little
        out of line? Maybe Cuba ought to fire a missile at Florida for
        there's a lot of anti-cuban people there.
        \_ No one in Florida is sending suicide bombers to Cuban cafes the
           last I checked.  If you're going to troll, you need to start
           with a better premise.  I salute your efforts, Young Troll, but
           ready for trolling, you are not.
           \_ Well, actually:
              http://www.nscuba.org/Docs/Terrorism/TerrorActs-1.html
           \_ And...there's been little more than "cause we said so" to
              indicate the camp was active or that Syria has been responsible
              for anything other than happening to be there.
        \_ Well...it's Florida...how about Mississippi?  It's almost as
           close.  Or Alabama.
           \_ "We'll try to stay cool and calm
               when Alabama gets the bomb!"
        \_ "Israel must not feel constrained in terms of defending the
           homeland."  -GWB There Bush formally said it. Israel has a green
           light to do whatever it feels like and not feel bound by
           the Geneva Convention, International Law, or any other
           pesky constraints. Watch them nuke Damascus next.
        \_ How is this different from what they have been doing in the past?
           Israel has bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor into oblivion, invaded
           Lebanon, raided PLO's headquarters in Libya. What you see is a normal
           state of affairs in the middle east..
2003/10/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:10479 Activity:low
10/5    Two links from the drudgereport that Israel has just attacked terrorist
        bases in Syria.  They haven't had direct conflict with Syria in 20
        years.  If this escalates, the entire Palestinian thing is going to
        be resolved with mass migration out of the war zones.
        \_ they've had plenty of indirect ones, syria has been secretly
           and not so secretly funding terrorist groups that pick
           at Israel, for 20+ years.
           \_ And Israel has sent in agents here and there to execute people.
              That's still much different than seeing F16s flying over Syrian
              territory dropping bombs.  If a real wat breaks out, the gloves
              are coming off and there won't be any more noise about 67 borders
              or land for peace or concerns about if Arafat is alive or not.
              We'll be talking about going back to the pre-2003 borders until
              the next war.
        \_ two links from the drudgereport?  no shit. wow. it's also on
           cnn, nytimes, aljazeera, foxnews, bbc, googlenews, etc etc, but
           if it's in the drudgereport, it must be news.
           \_ Idiot.  The drugereport just refers you to all those other
              places.  It's a bookmark service, moron.
              \_ then why mention it, jackass?
                 \_ Because, my intellectually diminshed young friend, it is
                    easier to say, "go to the drudgereport, that well known
                    news site bookmarking service" than to say, "here's a few
                    really fucking long URLs" or "here's the shortened URL
                    so you have no idea where the fuck I'm sending you".  -op
                    \_ so why post a URL at all, since it's on literally
                       every news wire on the planet, you
                       fucking dildo ass wanker jerkoff punk.
                       \_ To start this thing called 'discussion' or
                          'debate' or 'argument'.  You know...like on a
                          message board.  Jesus H Christ, just admit you're
                          wrong, pretend to be somewhat mature, and STFU. -!op
                 \_ to avoid the inevitable "such-and-such newspaper is
                    biased" free for all.  -!op
                    \_ all media have bias but "left vs right" is probably
                       not the most troublesome one. they're too profit
                       driven to effectively serve the public interest,
                       with biases that favor blood and sensationalism.
                       see al franken, eric alterman, joe conason for more.
                       \_ and this has what to do with the op directing
                          us to the drudge report to avoid the argument?
                          \_ nothing.  that wasn't my reason for it at all. -op
2003/10/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10478 Activity:nil
10/4    Israel's 'bomb squad pigs'
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3159010.stm
2003/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10160 Activity:nil
9/11    Do you think the strongly pro-Israel side or the anti-Israel side
        more aggresively deletes the motd?
        \_ Hi Troll!
        \_ maybe it is the apathetic apolitical side that is sick of hearing
           about all these non-christian heathens
        \_ anti-Israel comments are consistantly being deleted.  That is why
           earlier I made comment about motd censor being a Jew.
           I am an Asian, most of my non-Asian friends are Jews.  Being
           political, I consider myself being relatively neutral in
           Israel-Palestine issue. But motd censor like these is actually
           fueling anti-semitism feelings... Jews really need to look at
           history with a cold eye, as anti-semitism was a much more common
           phenomenon throughout Europe (read, it's not just Nazi Germany,
           though they were the most extreme).  Such feeling would of easily
           flare up again.
           \_ You're babbling and the parts that are semi-coherent are simply
              wrong.  Everything gets censored on the motd.  Now go tell your
              mommy you've got a Jewish friend so it's ok for you to make shit
              up about them like an expert.
              \- dear mr light unto the motd: i think you've sawed off the
                 menorah branch you were sitting on. --psb
                 \_ Excuse me while I go back to my 67 borders in order to
                    buy peace and then jump in the sea.  Never again, pal.
                    http://www.masada2000.org
                    \- thanks for not deleting but engaging. do you feel
                       it is reasonable to torture for information on
                       palestinian resistance activities, including
                       suicide bombing? [i am trying to state this in
                       fair language]. do you also support "visiting
                       the sins of the son on to the father" i.e. bulldozing
                       houses? --psb
2003/9/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10152 Activity:high
9/11    http://salon.com/politics/wire/2003/09/11/dean_israel/index.html
        Dean criticized for being too "evenhanded" about Israel.
        \_ While his views may be the same as Clinton and Bush Sr.'s,
           he didn't have the intelligence to not stick his foot in his mouth
        \_ evenhanded is a code word for "tell the Israelis to stop defending
           themselves and go back to '67 borders".  Do you feel any different
           knowing what the phrase means?
           \_ You may have a point, but I have never, ever heard of
              "evenhanded" being used as a code word.  I could just as easily
              say, for example, that "affirmative action is a code-word for
              the coloreds overrunning the country" or something stupid like
              that.
              \_ you could say anything you want but that wouldn't make it so.
                 in this case, it is so.
           \_ What is wrong with asking Isreal to return a little land
              to the people they took it all from in return for peace? No
              one is asking Isreal to stop defending themselves....
              Oh I get it, I have just been trolled. Nevermind.
              \_ You weren't trolled. You *are* a troll and an historically
                 ignorant one at that.  No cookie.
              \_ Wow.  Well, for starters because it won't grant peace....
                 \_ I forgot... by continuing conquer Palestinian, treat
                    the Arabs within Israel as less-than-second-class citizen
                    Israel will achieve eternal peace.
                    \_ Nice emotional knee-jerk logic there.  Try picking
                       up a decent history book and, you know, reading it.
                       \_ Don't try to bring history, facts, or logic into a
                          discussion about Israel and Palestine.  You'll just
                          be accused of being racist for not supporting the
                          "Palestinian People", a ficticious people created
                          in the 50's.
                          \_ Yes, I see that now.  And here I am trying to
                             be reasonable with the ESL Anti-US Conspiracy
                             Theory Guy.  I loves de MOTD!
                          \_ Fictitious people? Yes they don't exist. They are
                             subhumans who have no rights.
                             \_ Uhm, I don't think that's what the PP was
                                saying.  I *think* he was making a statement
                                about the label being artificial and perhaps
                                an oversimplification.  *shrug*  Maybe he'll
                                speak up and clarify....
        \_ "``It is unacceptable for the U.S. to be `evenhanded' on these
           fundamental issues,'' the letter said." Love it.
           \_ Of course it is.  Even if "evenhanded" meant what you'd like it
              to mean, it would be unacceptable to support an enemy over an
              ally at any time for any reason.
              \_ Enemy? That's not US policy. Why don't you explain how
                 "settlements" (as if the area wasn't already settled) are a
                 just thing and why removing them is so unthinkable.
2003/9/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10104 Activity:high
9/6     The final nail in the coffin:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3085810.stm
        \_ may a palestinian civil war please happen!
           \_ I'll laugh my ass off when they start suicide bombing each
              other's cafes in the name of Allah or Palestine or humiliation
              or Israeli oppression or whatever the idiocy of the week is.
        \_ See, this is why a Palestinian state is a good idea.  Let them have a
           proper war instead of all this terrorism crap.
2003/8/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29424 Activity:very high
8/20    I leave the motd for a few hours and all the Jew bashing threads are
        gone.  How can I feel superior if you keep purging the Jew bashing?
        \_ damn you Jew
        \_ that is why I suspect the motd censor is a jew earlier. Whoever
           behind the deletion of "Jew bashing" will actually fuel the
           anti-semitism than helping it.
           \_ You're an idiot.  I was being sarcastic.  You're exactly the
              sort of racist fool I was _trying_ to insult.  I'll make it
              easier for you to understand next time.  --op
           \_ dude, did you guys actually go to Cal?
           \_ Look, I'm as liberal as the next guy, but not supporting the
              policies of Israel is not the same as Jew bashing, ok?
              \- I shall soon issue a major statement on the Jews now that
                 I am done offending the homosexuals and blacks. --psb
              \_ I'll bet you even have a Jewish friend, too, right?  Or at
                 least there's a Jewish guy in one of your classes that showed
                 you his notes once and you didn't burn them.  Next time, you
                 can draw a little yellow star of david on each page so he
                 knows you're in solidarity with him.
                 \_ i am jewish, and i grew up in a town that was 30% jewish.
                    probably about a third of my friends are jewish, and i
                    celbrate some of the jewish holidays.  and i think
                    isreal can go fuck itself.
2003/8/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29407 Activity:high
8/19    This is a branch from the jouranlism/israel/palestine thread
        below ... just out of curiosity, why do you anonymous but substantive
        responders do so anonymously? i can understand if you are asking an
        emnarassing question, saying something that will geet john ashcroft
        to visit you but why in this dicussion? concerned about not having
        your opinion dismissed because you are jewish? [i'm not one of those
        people who are somehow offended or outraged by any and all anon
        posts ... just curious]. ok tnx. --psb
        \_ It just doesn't matter.  The notion that signing a post somehow
           magically legitamizes it or adds some sort of mystical validity is
           stupid.  If there was an advantage to signing, I would.  But I have
           yet to see a substantive reason aside from some snooty nincompoops
           claims of some sort of fallacious code of nerdy chivalry.  My
           signature is not required for my ideas to have merit worthy of
           consideration.  *shrug*
           \- well i certainly am able to separate the ideas from the man
              but sometimes it does seems easier to know if i am talking
              to the same person at all points in the coversation. maybe
              you can sign with some hash. the default seems to be to sign
              rather than not to. so if anything it's not signing that calls
              for an explanation ... again i mean "calls for" in the sense
              that "i wonder" not requires. suum cuique. --psb
              \_ The default is to sign?  Are we posting to the same motd??
                 I've been posting to motd for several years, and I have yet
                 to see this default in effect.  It's cool that you can
                 separate the ideas from the man, and I certainly respect
                 that -- but this doesn't translate to any sort of tangible
                 advantage or reason in my mind.  Additionally, I seriously
                 doubt that your point of view in this respect is the
                 'default'.  A very high percentage of the people that
                 routinely sign seem to have quite vocal and anonymous anti-
                 fan clubs riding their coat-tails.  This tends to water down
                 the content of a thread with needless ad hominem, obscuring
                 the OP's point.
                     \- sounds like you are a rationalizing animal.
                        it's just easier to have a lot of conversations
                        when they have more "state". e.g. a while back
                        someone asked for a reference on currency trading.
                        now it would be a lot easier to answer that question
                        if you had some sense if it was coming from someone
                        who had presented evidence of having a large or
                        small brain. etc. --psb
                 \-you know it's pretty easy to figure out who is non-idle
                 goes non-idle when the motd time stamp changes ...
                 especially if you have all these motd relics and watching
                 scripts in your home dir. lastcomm makes it even easier
                 but that is turned off on sloda. --psb
                    \_ Well, yeah.  It's 3am.  If I really cared that much,
                       I wouldn't post at all.  I just see more advantages to
                       not signing and almost none the other way.  I can
                       repeat my earlier points, but there seems little point.
                       Shoot me an email or something if you really want to
                       continue this debate....
        \_ I sign my name or not based on a gut feeling of whether the message
           would benefit from having my name included.
             -- anon poster from palestine/israel thread
        \_ labels.  I don't like being label based upon my view and voice.
           and there are plenty of people will happily perform targeted
           censorship based upon these labels.  You may not agree with me,
           but I view targeted censorship as a form of repression.
           Being anonymous is a form of protection from
           such repression at a personal level.
           \- well it seem to me if your concern is about censorship of your
              ideas, i dont think it will make a whit of difference wheter
              your posts are signed or not. [well unless maybe you have some
              anti-fans like me :-)] in fact it might buy you slightly more
              deference from the anon coward crowd. so if you think it will
              engender some personal antimosity, i dunno if i'd call it
              censorship. the target censors i believe mostly target ideas.
        \_ i don't do it because aaron deletes my posts.
        \_ one reason i post anonymously is i want the ideas to stand
           on their own
           \_ have you seen the move "the call me mr. crebbs"? --psb
              \_ no, please explain
                 \- it's a movie about a black fellow
2003/8/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29402 Activity:high
8/19    Goddamn.  Take a look at the video of the Iraq UN HQ bombing.
        It took place when a Japanese camera crew was recording:
        http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?0cv=CA00
        \_ Gang of ulugs.  -John
        \_ can someone figure out how to d/l this or find a copy I/we
           can save?
           \- check out the story at:
   http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/israel.palestine/thestory.html
           it's about a 15min video. --psb
         "We try to educate them that beatings of journalists is unacceptible."
           [later]
         "I'm not worried about freedom of the press." [after taking away press
          card of all palestinian journalists]
                                        --head of israeli press office
           \_ dang, talk about selective quoting.  I sure as hell wouldn't
              want Israel's policies in the U.S., but the man is clearly
              speaking emotionally:  (It's not unreasonable when
              suicide bombers are killing non-military women and children,
              cf. today's new bus bombing;
              and no, Israeli oppression is definitely not grounds for
              consciously killing innocents to liberate Palestine or for
              revenge.)
              "After all the violence of the past year, I found his
              attitude had hardened," observes Naylor.  "I'm not worried
              about the press, freedom of the press," Seaman tells her.
              "If there are any limitations to it, it'll be restored.  Any
              freedom can be restored - the lives of Israelis cannot be
              restored."
              \-  journalists != suicide bombers. this is about censorship.
                  this wasnt about journalists broadcasting the locations
                  of israeli military to the otherside. maybe this is what
                  israel feels they have to do, but maybe they should stop
                  suggesting they are a common culture with societies that
                  would give more priority to press freedom. i do think
                  israeli courts have often made fair decisions after piss
                  poor ones by the legistature/executive/bureacracy. so i
                  think their commitment to legal authority is laudible.--psb
                  \_ Partha, Israel is a society under siege.  I am surprised
                     how non-militant they are, all things considered.
                     The equivalent level of stress on american society would
                     be Oklahoma city bombings happening every week or two.
                        \- so you consider the current response restrained?
                           would you advocate torture and do you thing the
                           bulldozing of the houses as justifiable? --psb
              \_ "Definitely not grounds"... so in your opinion could there
                 ever be any grounds for such killings? Hypothetically?
                 Israel is a democracy after all, and the "settlers" are
                 hardly innocent. People whose land is taken from them are
                 apt to fly off the handle. The phrase "under siege" could
                 be applied to Palestinians, as the Israeli policy appears
                 to have the goal of slowly assimilating their lands. E.g.
                 make things miserable enough that they give up, but avoid
                 international relations problems. Israel says making them
                 Israeli citizens is unthinkable, yet a viable Palestinian
                 state is also nixed, so instead there's this non-status.
                 Armed Israeli "settlements" have no ethical basis and lead
                 to further Palestinian displacement.
2003/8/20 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29399 Activity:high
8/19    http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm
        I'm not a rabid Israel hater like some on the motd, but I think
        this is a pretty good reminder that Israel is a state that was
        born from terrorism.  However because they are "good terrorists"
        no one ever talks about it.  The line between terrorist and
        freedom fighter is a shakey one.
        \_ 'Born from terrorism.'  Pretty strong statement there.  Are you
           sure you aren't rabid?
2003/8/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29377 Activity:very high
8/17    http://www.unknownnews.net/0626-2.html
        So, it seems like you could take almost any retail outlet down
        just by repeatedly asking them "Is this product made in Israel"
        \_ Not really.  But you can certainly make a lot of paperwork for the
           employees that are just there to get by on crap salaries.
        \_ here's the law:
           http://www.bxa.doc.gov/antiboycottcompliance/part760oac.pdf
           see section (d) on page 24.
        \_ Great.  Now we can get those racist Abercrombie bastards.
           \_ what are you accusing Abercrombie of exactly?
              \_ Go here: http://www.afjustice.com
                 ! the above poster
2003/8/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29327 Activity:very high
8/12    link:www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/6161002.htm
        It is illegal to say if something is made in Israel or not.  What
        the hell?
        \_ BushCo shredded the 1st Amendment a long time ago.
         \_ the law dates back to the late 70s.  Still odd.
        \_ if we really care about middle east peace, those stupid
           pro Isreal laws gotta go.
2003/8/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:29282 Activity:insanely high
8/8     So why did Israel break the ceasefire? No flames please, I am
        seriously trying to understand this.
        \_ ??? They didn't.  URL, please.  CNN reports nothing about it.
           \_ http://sg.news.yahoo.com/030808/1/3d9km.html
              \_ This says no such thing.
        \_ It isn't a ceasefire when the other side is still shooting and
           taking public 'credit' for killing your civilians.  Can you ask
           a more loaded question next time?  Thanks!
           \_ Please show me evidence that Hamas or Fatah is taking
              "credit" for this. That is what I was asking for.
              \_ Arafat's boys have taken credit for several attacks
                 recently.  Read the papers everyday.  I shouldn't have to
                 provide you proof that the sky is blue or water is wet.
        \_ Did you read about the recent kidnappings of israeli teens by
           terror groups?  Israel never broke any ceasefire agreements
           first.
           \_ How about that big wall cutting into Palestinian land? I guess
              they should be proud the land is going to better use huh?
              \_ Oh yeah, a little construction vs actual kidnapping and
                 murder.
           \_ I thought they were still classified as "missing."
              \_ One was found dead recently.  Some palestinians tried to
                 force a soldier into their car recently, but ran when he
           \_ I think you're misusing the term 'flame'.
                 cocked his rifle.  His superiors gave the soldier a hard time
                 for not firing and ending their reign of terror.
                 \_ I did not know this. Thanks for telling me. I know
                    the US media only ever gets 1/2 of the story and
                    usually the details all mixed up at that.
        \_ I think even mentioning Israel on the motd qualifies as a flame.
           Its almost like a motd corallary of Godwin's law.
           \_ I think you're misusing the term 'flame'.  You probably mean
              'troll'.
           \_ very good point... shall we call it the MOTD Corallary and
              try to circulate it in general use? Someone mail the jargon
              file.
        \_ About the infamous West Bank wall. I am wondering whether the
           Palestinian claims that the wall is a land grab attempt is true and
           to what degree.  Does anyone have a URL for a map that shows where
           this wall will pass and Israel's actual internationally recognized
           border?
           \_ What's so infamous about a wall?  If Canadians were coming over
              the border to commit suicide bombings every day, we'd not only
              start building walls, but raid and invade parts of Canada on a
              near daily basis until we broke their will or killed every last
              one of them.  Walls?  That's tame compared to what most any
              other country would do in Israel's position.
           \_ In order to have an internationally recognized border, your
              existence must be internationally recognized.  Israel isn't
              while numerous other 3rd world states with infinitely worse
              human rights records (such as *all* of their neighbors) are.
              How can anyone seriously expect the Israelis to respect anything
              "international" when they don't even exist legally to a large
              chunk of the planet?
              \_ I meant the internationally recognized border as in what UN
                 and countries who do recognize the state of Israel think
                 their border is. And please don't change the topic. I asked
                 for the map, not an excuse for building the security wall.
                 And BTW, Jordan and Egypt have signed peace agreements
                 with Israel a long time ago, so it's not like none of their
                 neighboors are not recognizing them.
                 \_ fortunately, our local google hater has not yet brought
                    google to it's knees.
                    http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall
                 \_ True, they did.  After getting beaten into submission.
                    Several times.  Anyway, to answer your question, there
                    really isn't such a thing.  You want the pre-67 borders?
                    Post-67?  What about all the deadman's land both
                    populations have expanded into since 47?  There just
                    aren't any nice clean lines anywhere.  That's part of the
                    problem.  Borders aren't real.  If someone pays you taxes
                    they're inside your borders, if not then not.
                    \_ It is exactly this kind of idiotic thinking that has
                       put Israel in the position it is today, with 200k
                       settlers smack dab in the middle of 3.5M Arabs,
                       neither of who is going to move. This desire to
                       have it all will inevitably lead to Israel's demise,
                       at least as a Jewish state. Perhaps it will live on
                       as a multi-secular state, sort of like Lebanon. Too
                       bad you didn't reign in the fanatics while you still
                       could have. It is too late now.
                       \_ Israel can't be a multi secular state because one
                          of your segments wants to genocide the other major
                          segment and 'push them into the sea'.  Yes, it's
                          now too late for the Muslim fanatics to genocide
                          the Jews.
                       \_ By that "thinking," it was alwas "too late" for
                          Israel.  5 million Jews in smack dab in the middle
                          of 200-300 million Arabs, a lot less than 6%.
                          Also, I wouldn't trust a map that declares,
                          "The Palestinians agreed to settle for 22%," when
                          so many are holding out for more.
                       \_ Anyone who calls Lebanon a "multi secular state"
                          has no business advising anyone on their affairs.
                          Lebanon is a chaotic puppet state run by Syria and
                          has been for decades.  You're either deeply confused
                          and misinformed or just plain nutty.
                          \_ What would you call it then? There are people
                             of more than one religion there, aren't there?
                             Being like Lebanon is not a thing to aspire to.
                             \_ I'd call it a Syrian run shit hole puppet
                                state, just like I called it above but with
                                extra emphasis because you didn't read it
                                the first time.  Lebanon is not a country.
                                They don't have a government of any note.
                                Holding up Lebanon as an example of something
                                to emulate is simply bizarre.  If your only
                                standard to call something a multi whatever
                                state is 'people of more than one religion
                                there', then every country in the world
                                fits your description, many of them far better
                                than the wreck that is Lebanon.
                                \_ This is the kind of future Israel has
                                   bought for itself. Watch and see. If
                                   you are not familiar with Lebanon's
                                   attempt to set up a multi-ethnic
                                   Constitution and the resulting civil
                                   wars, then more the pity to be you.
                                   Not that history is your strong point,
                                   but Syria has only occupied the country
                                   since 1990, not "many decades" as you claim.
2003/8/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29205 Activity:very high
8/1     Fence vs. Wall. Who the hell calls a concrete structure a fence?
        \_ What the heck are you talking about?
           \_ Israel's new "security barrier".  It's a fence in some
              places, and a wall in others.
        \_ your defense is only as good as its weakest point, thus a fence
        \_ C'mon, the anti-Israel troll lobby has smeared the motd enough
           lately.  Give it a rest or come up with something original.  We
           all know, understand, and agree that killing all the Jews is the
           right answer to freeing the poor oppressed innocent harmless
           Palestinian freedom fighters, ok?  Just let it go.  It's done.
           \_ That's right. Anyone who says anything bad about anything
              Isreal has ever done is secretly an anti-Semite who wants
              to kill all the jews. You tell em!
              \_ I did tell em!  At least we agree on something finally.  Jews
                 are bad, Arabs are good, dead Jews are better still.
           \_ I want to know who the hell has heard of a "concrete fence".
        \_ The Great Wall of Israel?
           \_ The Great Fence of Israel, you anti-Israeli troll!
        \_ It's the only right thing to do.  You can only throw hand grenades
           so far over an 8 meter concrete wall.  -John
           \_ Of course it is the right thing to do... but it's a fucking
              wall, not an 8 meter concrete fence...
        \_ Why is it nobody ever seems to mention that there is a fence around
           Gaza and there is only a small percentage of the violence that
           stems from there?
2003/7/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29095 Activity:nil
7/21    [Israel/Palestine discussion censored.  I didn't really understand
        what the point was anyway.]
        \_ yeah, neither did I... but I was kind of enjoying the momentary
           motd notoriety               - rory
2003/7/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29089 Activity:high
7/21    Rory Solomon, this is no way to live a life.  You are consumed with
        the motd and that is bad.  Being the self-appointed Jewish Motd
        Reactionary serves no purpose.  I hate seeing a young man with a bright
        future wasting his life away at the motd.  Checking it every minute
        and jumping at any thread that has the words "Jew" or "Israel" in it.
        For your own good;  you're better off spending your time volunteering
        at a Jewish Community center than trying to defend Israel in a
        forum that most people here know is a joke. -yarofatslav
        \_ Could someone explain what this is about? I have no idea. I haven't
           posted to the motd in days... and if you really want to get into it,
           I would describe myself as sympathizing more strongly with Palestine.
           WTF??                - rory
           \_ There are some weird people on motd.  I wouldn't worry about it.
              \_ And they're often *very* *very* wrong about who is posting
                 what.  I don't know why rory would want to fall under any
                 of these http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sympathize
                 definitions with a bunch of murderers like the PLO but hey,
                 if you wanna hang out with butchers, it's your right.
                 \_ Troll alert!  Danger, will robinson, danger!
                    \_ No troll.  It's all true.  Sorry you don't like reality.
                 \_ Yes, every Palestinian is a member of the PLO automatically
                    at birth whether they like it or not. Thank you for
                    having the good sense to recognize this.
                    \_ Maybe if they didn't dance in the streets on camera
                       after 9/11 I might feel sympathy for them but for now,
                       I agree with John.
                       \_ For some reason, your response reminds me of the
                          Ku Klux Klan scene in O Brother Where Art Thou
                          \_ Nice round about way of getting in the "Nazi!"
                             slam!  Your sociology professor would be proud!
                             That was much better than coming up with some
                             meaningful statement of fact or an opinion on the
                             topic itself while still making a personal attack
                             that almost didn't quite look like one.  But it
                             did.  I'll be happy to chat with you on any topic
                             when you can stick to the topic and not make it
                             into a personal attack.
                             \_ Have you seen that scene before?
2003/7/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29024 Activity:high
7/13    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=424237
        It's rare that a Middle East story is funny.
        \_ you have a weird sense of humor.  damn, i've been
        \_ you have a weird sense of humor.  damn, I've been
           trolled!  I hate you.  Where is this palestinian state?
           Sweden?
                \_ It was funny.  But are you really that ignorant?
                   \_ He's trolling.  Don't be so naive.
                \_ You're not trolled.  I really thought it was funny.  -op
                \_ They could move it to the Jewish Autonomous Republic
                   (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Republic
                   Since Jews aren't living there anyways.
        \_ a similar poll shows that 80% of the Israelis believe that a
           peace negotiation would work while 75% of the Palestinians
           believe that a negotiation will work IFF **every single one of
           the Israelis** leave Israel. Go figure.
           \_ Now, *this* is a troll.
           \_ At least the Palestinians are asking for something reasonable.
              They just want their land back and to restore their country to
              what it was before it was stolen.
              \_ please explain why, by your logic, we should not return
                 california to mexico.  or do you think that's a good idea
                 also?
                 \_ and Mexico to all those Native Americans.
                 \_ yes.  everyone should go back to where they came from.
                    what's wrong with restoring the world to the way it was
                    before white people over ran everyone?
2003/7/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28928 Activity:nil
7/4     http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=314457&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
        Finally.  The Iranians have used North Korean technology to develop a
        missile that can hit Israel.  Once they finish or buy their first nuke,
        we can all finally be rid of the jews.
        \_ PAC-2 and Arrow 2 will take out anything hurled that way.
2003/6/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28860 Activity:high
6/28    An interesting article, first posted by a racist half-wit, about
        a British professor's well-intentioned but misguided attempt to
        bring light to human rights abuses in the Israeli-Palestinian
        conflict: http://csua.org/u/3fc
        \_ I doubt it was really posted by a racist half-wit.  it was probably
           a bored troll working overtime who didn't bother to read the text
           but saw an inflamatory-sounding headline somewhere on the net,
           added an even more inflamatory-sounding tagline, and posted it
           to get people riled up.  By changing the tagline, you might have
           ruined their one chance for enterntainment while trapped in their
           cubicle on a sunday.  or maybe it really was a racist half-wit.
        \_ The human rights abuses?  You mean where the palestinians are
           raising their own children to walk into discos, hotels, and pizza
                   \- so stipulating what you write above is true, what
                      do you think it says when "parents are raising their
                      children to walk into discos and blow themselves up"
                      that the palestianian parents dont care about their
                      kids? does it suggest to you that the conditions they
                      are living under and their long terms prospects are
                      just fine? i'm not suggesting suicide bombing is
                      necessarily a justified thing to do even under the
                      circumstances, but it does suggest that the circumstances
                      are not pleasant. i dont buy the "oh anyone can be
                      manipulated into anything" view or that israel has
                      nothing to do with their conditions. --psb
                      \_ psb, I am disappointed... -- ex psb fan
                         \- gee, imagine if said what i really think. --psb
           parlors and blow up themselves and as many civilians as possible?
           Or did you mean the part where the palestinians and most of the
           rest of the arabs world both at the government and street level
           is still unwilling to acknowledge Israel has a right to exist and
           still intends genocide?  Or did you mean the part where others arabs
           such as in Jordan have killed literally 100x as many palestinians
           than Israel has and usually in a mass killing of tens of thousands
           at a time that doesn't get reported in the western press?  Or maybe
           one of the other zillion atrocities committed by arabs on arabs
           over the last several decades?  Help me out, which of these human
           rights abuses was the oxford professor trying to bring light to
           with his very private, very illegal, and very racist email?
                \- you know i suspect this guy made a mistake "putting it
                   in writing" but i think there is a lot of positive
                   selection [in the sense of selecting for certain people
                   rather than selectign against] under the covers ... surely
                   you've seen the romanian/indian/taiwanese/israeli prof
                   with 75% r/i/t/i students. i'm sure there is similar
                   antipathy among indian profs towards pakistani students,
                   probably somethink like that among the chinese, maybe
                   with japanese and korea etc. again this isnt exculpatory
                   but suggests it isnt extraordinary ... except maybe for
                   the jewish crowd suggesting this is unique persecution.
                                                              --psb
        \_ We all know the poor poor palestinians, being the victims,
           are entitled to send their teen children to blow themselves up.
           Its an inalienable natural right, like sodomy.  Forget that the
           the PLO and most of the Arab world were Soviet client states
           for 45 of the past the 55 years, that Yasser is a communist...
           whats the point, people conveniently ignore
           uncomfortable facts.
2003/6/17 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28747 Activity:nil
6/16    Last question on Israeli/Palestinian issue.  This is a question
        \_ Hah! Haha!  Hahaha!
        for those who are in support of Israel:
        One of the justification for the Israel is that it is a land promised
        by God.  However, based upon my limited knowledge, God has promised
        a land which is a lot a lot bigger than the current Israel even if
        Westbank AND Gaza Strip are included.  My question is 1.  Are
        majority of Israeli desire to claim the rest of the promised land
        eventually?  2.  For those American / American Jews who support of
        Israel, would you support Israel if Israel use this as an excuse
        initiate invasion of, let say Jordan, Syria and other neighbors so
        the promise in the Bible can be fulfilled?
        \_ TROLL!
        \_ I would imagine that a vast majority of Israelis do not have the
           extreme viewpoint of the whole Promised Land justification.
           They just want peace.
        \_ TROLL!
        \_ Cmon now. Like any faith they will interpret or ignore the facts
           to fit their 'word of God'. 1. No, the settler types are few,
           maybe just over 100k, and are viewed as fringe. Israel is a very
           secular country on many levels, don't make the mistake of
           thinking that Israel's "jewishness" is all about religion --
           jewishness is a complex mix of ethnicity, culture, and religion.
           Most Israelis are not religious. 2. Learn English. --aaron
           \_ You are down playing the role of religion on this.  Hate
              to say this, but the way Israeli evicting Palestinians are
              pretty similar to the way Nazi evictings Jews just a decade
              earlier. Their main "justification" for it *IS* that it is
              "THEIR" land promoised by GOD.  Further, if religion is not
              an issue, then, why Israel want Jerusalem so bad?
                                        -- OP
                \_ You know, it's sad enough already that Godwin's Law
                   pops up so often, but it's even more pathetic when people
                   start trolling just for the sake of starting an argument
                   in which they can (yet again, sigh) prove it.  -John
        \_ TROLL!
2003/6/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28743 Activity:moderate
6/16    Last question on Israeli/Palestinian issue.  This is a question
        for those who are in support of Israel:
        One of the justification for the Israel is that it is a land promised
        by God.  However, based upon my limited knowledge, God has promised
        a land which is a lot a lot bigger than the current Israel even if
        Westbank AND Gaza Strip are included.  My question is 1.  Are
        majority of Israeli desire to claim the rest of the promised land
        eventually?  2.  For those American / American Jews who support of
        Israel, would you support Israel if Israel use this as an excuse
        initiate invasion of, let say Jordan, Syria and other neighbors so
        the promise in the Bible can be fulfilled?
          \_ I would imagine that a vast majority of Israelis do not have the
             extreme viewpoint of the whole Promised Land justification.
             They just want peace.
        \_ TROLL!
        \_ I would imagine that a vast majority of Israelis do not have the
           extreme viewpoint of the whole Promised Land justification.
           They just want peace.
        \_ TROLL!
        \_ Cmon now. Like any faith they will interpret or ignore the facts
           to fit their 'word of God'. 1. No, the settler types are few,
           maybe just over 100k, and are viewed as fringe. Israel is a very
           secular country on many levels, don't make the mistake of
           thinking that Israel's "jewishness" is all about religion --
           jewishness is a complex mix of ethnicity, culture, and religion.
           Most Israelis are not religious. 2. Learn English. --aaron
           \_ You are down playing the role of religion on this.  Hate
              to say this, but the way Israeli evicting Palestinians are
              pretty similar to the way Nazi evictings Jews just a decade
              earlier. Their main "justification" for it *IS* that it is
              "THEIR" land promoised by GOD.  Further, if religion is not
              an issue, then, why Israel want Jerusalem so bad?
                                        -- OP
                \_ You know, it's sad enough already that Godwin's Law
                   pops up so often, but it's even more pathetic when people
                   start trolling just for the sake of starting an argument
                   in which they can (yet again, sigh) prove it.  -John
        \_ TROLL!
2003/6/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28701 Activity:nil
6/10    More stupid question on Israeli-Palestinian issue:
        Since Gaza Strip used to belong to Egypt, then, why there are so
        many Palestinian people there?  Is it because during the creation of
        Israel and 1967 War that Palestinians were being herd there in flock?
        Or other reasons?
        \_ Palestine has almost always belonged to somebody else, but the
           Palestinians have always lived there. I think they are in the
           Gaza Strip because the Israelis didn't want that land.
           \_ I say someone "accidently" set off a nuclear bomb in that area
              so they can all stop fighting over it. I think Russia, U.S.,
              even South Africa, has a lot of land that size that is not being
              used, let alone fought over.
              \_ if anything, it's Israel that need to be relocated, no?
                 \_ no.
        \_ No one 'herded' anyone anywhere.  God, why do I respond to trolls?
           At the creation of Israel, various arab "leaders" told their people
           to leave because they were going to invade and kill all the Jews
           anyway and it's easier to genocide someone if there aren't friendly
           civilians around getting in the way.  The arabs invaded and got
           their asses handed to them and then abandoned the palestinians to
           an eternity of doom by not taking them into their own lands as the
           Israelis had done for Jews who got kicked out of their arab-ruled
           counrties by force.  You can find much better and more detailed
           histories all over the net and in a zillion books.  Please stop
           trolling the motd.  Thank you.
2003/6/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28684 Activity:very high
6/9     Israel-Palestine question.  Most people agree that return of
        1967 border and waive the right of refugee's return is somewhat
        more viable peace plan than anything else.  My question is:  I
        thought that Gaza Strip was taken away from Egypt.  Howcome that
        during the discussion of Palestine statehood, no one talked about
        returning Gaza Strip back to Egypt?
                                Ignorant Chinese
         \_ The West Bank was taken from Jordan, so you should be asking
            the same question about Jordan.  But Jordan doesn't want to
            deal with the West Bank, and Egypt probably doesn't want to
            deal with Gaza.
        \_ because Israel is no way no how going to give that back to Egypt.
        \_ hey moron - Israel *wanted* and *wants* to give the gaza back
           to egypt. If you read up on the peace plans of the past, Egypt
           refused - they didn't want to deal with it either.
           \_ yeah... Israel *wants* to give the gaza back.  I thought
              Gaza Strip is part of the promise land.
           \_ I just thought that i would make more sense, and it shows
              a good gesture to the Arab world that Israel is serious about
              the settlement.  Further, it can deflect some of the problem
              to Egypt... let Egypt to deal with Palestinians in the Gaza
              Strip.
        \_ Here's the real answer: Jordan doesn't want the West Bank back.
           Egypt doesn't want the Gaza Strip back.  Why?  Because they're both
           packed full of palestinians.  *No one* wants palestinians in their
           country.  They're kept in poverty and in permanent refugee status
           by the other Arabs to give their dictators something to distract
           their own people from their own very real problems.  There were
           hundreds of thousands of Jews all over the middle east who got
           forcefully evicted from their homes.  Places where Jews had lived
           for more than a thousand years in many cases.  Israel took them all
           in.  No country has taken in the palestinians and never will.  The
           palestinians are considered garbage people by the other Arabs.  As
           far as "most people agree", you should find a larger set of people
           to talk to.  Israel will never go back to the '67 borders.  They
           aren't defendable.  As far as the right of return goes, they have no
           more right than the Jews have to return to their homes: none.  ok,
           enough being trolled.
                \_  This is true... Kuwait evicted all of its Palestinians
                    after GWI, the Saudis also evicted and put others in camps.
                    Jordan is over 50% Palestinian.
                        \_ Might also want to look up massacres of
                           Palestinians and expulsion of PLA/PLO by Jordan in
                           1970. -John
           \_ hey, I am just looking at this whole situation and trying to
              make sense of it.  I just thought that a Palestine State (for
              sake of arguement, 100%  of West Bank) AND Gaza Strip is not
              viable at all.   And by the way, I don't buy the "undefendable
              border" arguement.  If you look at the national border over the
              world, you will see borders, for the most part, are not
              defendable.               --OP
              \_  Ummm.. Maybe so, but most places
                  A) Don't get much choice about it regularly
                  B) Aren't surrounded by other countries obseessed with
                     killing them, and them in particular.
              \_ So you think once there's a "viable Palestinian state" that
                 the various palestinian terrorist groups will suddenly stop
                 killing Israelis and the rest of the arab nations will put
                 Israel on the maps they use in their grade schools?
                 Israel on the maps they use in their grade schools?  While
                 we're trolling on Israel, what do you think of China releasing
                 Tibet and also stop threatening to invade Taiwan and let it
                 be independent?  Or maybe the other way?  Tibet and Taiwan
                 should STFU and stop rejecting their natural motherland?
                  < non related topic deleted >
                 \_ Terrorism is an act of desperation.  Mind you that
                    there was once upon a time when Arab nations were
                    reasonable, rational, and even democratic.  But we
                    took advantage of that by creating an Israeli state,
                    evicted people who lived there close to 2000 years, and
                    installed pro-western government so we can extract
                    oil from them.  If we were following the democratic
                    principle, Israel wouldn't of created at first place.
           \_ Why are they packed full of palestinians?
              \_ Because palestinians breed like rats and no one and I mean
                 *no one* wants rats in their house.
                 \_ Interesting. My boss is Palestinian. He may be overweight
                    and a blowhard, but I can't say he's been breeding like a
                    rat.
2003/5/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28561 Activity:high
5/27    Not a big deal, just funny in a absurd way:
        AP - Late Monday, Israeli soldiers fired on four diplomatic vehicles
        in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, diplomats said. No one was
        hurt. ... two bullets hit the windshield of the Swiss Consulate's
        armored car, and diplomatic cars of Sweden, Denmark and the European
        Union also came under fire.

        The military expressed regret, saying soldiers fired to break up a
        crowd of Palestinians and bullets inadvertently hit the diplomat's
        vehicle.  http://csua.org/u/317
        \_ http://www.masada2000.org
        \_ Israel has no respect of international law whatsoever, this is just
           one of many acts.  Intercept ship in interntaional water a week
           ago is just another example.  If Israel really want to win the
           legimacy, it will need to play by the rules, otherwise, it is no
           different from the sucide bombers it is fighting against.
           \_ Bad Jew!  Stop defending yourself!  Bad Jew!  Bad!  Role over
              and die to make French and Arabs happy!  Bad Jew!  Die Jew!  Die!
              Never again, son, never again.
2003/5/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28553 Activity:high
5/25    Does anyone think Sharon is really going to stick by his word?
        http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html
        \_ Let say, give him benefit of the doubt, he is going to.  But
           how much control does he really has over this matter?  It's
           interesting that Israel, which founded based upon the act of
           terror (zionist movement against the British rule at the time),
           is plagued by the very same act which the nation is build upon.
           Same thing can be said about United States and its racist root.
                \_ I learned in elementary that United States fought the
                   civil war to help African Americans and that Lincoln
                   is kind to people of all colors. US is anything
                   but racist because my elementary teacher said so.
                   \_ Lincon rallied the war effort on the slogan of
                      "preserve the Union," not "abolish the slavery,"
                     as there are a lot of people in the North don't necessary
                     support it.  Only after the battle of Gettysburg, when
                     Northen.
                     Northen victory is assured, then Lincon brought the issue
                     of slavery to the nation.   Even afer that, Blacks
                     didn't get any political right until the 1960's.
                     From the establishment of colonies in the 1400's, until
                     civil rights movement 30+ years ago, i am sorry, but
                     racism is part of American culture.  America has
                     made tremedous progress in this issue, but racism
                     is a such natural part of social DNA that it has great
                     tendency to going back to its racist past.  Cock's
                     report on Chinese spying, and today's homeland security
                                \_ Except the Chinese *are* spying.
                                   \_ So are the Israelis.
                                      \_ Yeah, that's why Pollard is still in
                                         jail.  What's Israel got to do with
                                         this?  So do many other allies.  Why
                                         do you go out of your way to mention
                                         Israel?  Hate Jews recently?
                                         \_ Err ... this thread started out
                                            with Sharon.  Last I checked, he
                        civil war.
                                            is still a Jew.  Why, if anyone
                                            mentions any negative facts
                                            about Israel, she is a Jew hater?
                                            \_ Because the topic had changed
                                               on this subthread to something
                                               unrelated to Israel and as
                                               usual the we-hate-Jews committee
                                               crawled out from under their
                                               rock.  It gets pointed out a
                                               lot because the Jew haters do a
                                               lot of crawling around here. Why
                                               do you never mention the 300+
                                               other countries with far worse
                                               records for just about any
                                               negative behaviour?  Because you
                                               hate Jews.  I understand that it
                                               isn't a concious choice, that
                                               you were raised with it and Jew
                                               hating is not only acceptable
                                               but a good thing in many places
                                               and families but it isn't going
                                               to hit the motd without comment.
                     targeting Arabs are just couple examples.  How to steer
                                \_ And the terrorists *are* Arabs.
                     America away from its natural tendency is the challenge
                     which constantly plaguing the leader of this nation.
                     \_ There were several proposals to save the union
                        before the civil war, and all of these deal
                        almost exclusively with slavery issues.  Slavery
                        and its abolishment is the central issue of the
                        civil war.  - chinese dude
                        \_ to say US fought civil war, thus, US is not
                           racist is an gross simplification.
                           \_ 'racist' is such a tired, overused word.  Sorry
                              to say, but it's such an abused catch-all that
                              it no longer carries much weight.  -John
                              \_ RACIST!
2003/5/6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28345 Activity:nil
5/5     I say we invade Israel for possesing weapon of massive destruction
        and consistant records of violation of international laws, and
        aggression toward its neighbors.
        \_ And being the only mid east state to allow arabs to vote and the
           mid east state responsible for the fewest arabs deaths in the last
           50 years and the only democratic mid east state and the only mid
           east state to support the US in the UN general assembly more than
           20% of the time.  Those jew bastards, I so hate having such a solid
           democratic ally in such an ugly part of the world.  We should ally
           ourselves with peace loving terrorist dictatorships like the PLO.
           \_ Democracy has NOTHING to do with it.  Lighten up.  Look at
              our OTHER allies: Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? UAE? what do they have
              in common? Absolute Monarchy!  And... if anything, *IRAN* has
              a democracy!  It just that their democracy is very different
              than what we got over here.
                \_ You can't have a democracy if there is no freedom of ideas,
                freedom of the press, etc. If you're too progressive, you'll
                get the death sentence in Iran...
                -dated an Iranian, I guess that makes me an expert.
        \_ It's really simple, Sam:  If the other side has suicide bombers,
           all bets are off.
           \_ Stupid logic trap.  Suicide bomber are only thing they got.
              without it, Israel will never even consider return land
              which they conquered.
2003/4/30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28274 Activity:high
4/30    Initially when we went into Somalia, the people loved the US troops.
        We brought them food and they were fed.  After the situation stabilized
        the Somalis turned against us.  And culminated by dragging a dead US
        soldiers through the streets.  Beware that history might repeat
        itself.
        \_ Tell that to George W. "I look to history, but only selectively"
           Bush.
        \_ Wow, that's a really cool rewrite of history.  I like how you saw
           a hollywood movie made from a book and then decided how the world
           works from there and can be applied to all other cases the same way.
           I'm glad you don't work in foreign affairs.  Keeping hacking java.
           Stick with what you know, you'll do better.
        \_ Yea, like I said, this looks like another Palestine, except a few
           times larger.
        \_ Somalia was never stablized. Warlords ruled most of the country.
           The US went in to cover food aid and then got mixed up in nation
           building. Right now, Afghanistan is a closer match but without
           constant media showing Somalia's millions of starving. Iraq will
           be MUCH different from both. I agree with the Palestine analogy.
           \_ Only difference is that unlike Israel, US civilians are not
              at the scene, and hence not as exposed.  Hopefully US military
              personnel fend for themselves better.  Otherwise, it can get
              ugly.
2003/4/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28196 Activity:very high
4/23    The following dating simulation may be useful to sodans:
        http://philip.greenspun.com/dating
        \_ I feel like I'm reading his tcl tutorial - danh
        \_ Where's your pride, man?  Surely a Sodan can write a better
           (and more witty) dating simulation than those MIT twits!
           \_ ED!
           \_ And to top it off, it's from Greenspun. Somehow that guy
              has an uncanny ability to get under my skin. I just read
              something he wrote on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict
              that had a level of insight, analysis, and self-confidence
              I'd expect from a 15 year old. Everything I encounter from
              that guy manages to annoy the hell out of me.
              \_ This http://philip.greenspun.com/politics/israel you mean?
                 Not only is it well written but it's backed by facts, quotes,
                 links, numbers, and historical context.  Things that would
                 piss off the typical anti-Israeli motd poster.
                 \_ There's plenty of stuff in that article to piss
                    off the typical pro-Israeli motd poster. - danh
        \_ she is ugly
           \_ Why is this such a common theme?  Seems like people set
              expectations very high in this regard.
                \_ because CSUA geeks are the epitome of male beauty.  -tom
                   \_ especially raytrace... --scotsman
           \_ At worst she's simply not your standard over inflated http://pr0n.net
              whore.  She's a reasonably attractive white chick who hasn't had
              artificial 'enhancements'.  She's also at MIT.  She also gets
              laid.  In summary, she's more attractive than you, smarter than
              you and has better sex than you (anything is better than none).
              She's got my vote.
2003/4/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28152 Activity:high
4/16    I actually like the idea, as long as it apply to all nations in
        the middle east
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2955161.stm
        \_ Cool so 150 million screaming arabs with boards with nails in
           them can push the fuckin jews into the sea.  Good plan, well
           thought out, especially considering which "side" will be under
           more intense scrutiny to comply.  Good nukes make good neighbors,
           at least they have so far.  -John
           \_ I think the situation has become a lot more complicated than
              "Israel has nukes".   Face it, if anyone attacked Israel the
              US would invade in days.  This is no longer the 60s.
              \_ So you think it's in Israel's best interests to be completely
                 dependent on the US's good will for their survival?  That's
                 totally insane.  What happens when the anti-Israel nutheads
                 eventually get elected and leave them to rot?  "Oh, oops,
                 sorry, you should've had your own nukes!"  Especially since
                 the US has such a shitty record of keeping promises.
           \_ Isreal was able to defend itself against its neighbors three
              times without the use of nukes.
              \_ No.  The last time things got tense and they let everyone
                 know they were ready to do it.  And no one has tried again
                 since, at the army level.  BTW, Israel hasn't even admitted
                 they have any, let alone 1000+.  They won't give em up.
              \_ And it was *very* *very* close to getting wiped out twice.
                 Go pick up a book on military history.  You'll note no one
                 has launched a full scale invasion since the time they're
                 believed to have developed nukes?  Think about it.  If it
                 was the other way around you *know* Israel would have already
                 been nuked in a first strike.  You're either naive or
                 something unspeakable worse.
                 \_ I don't think anyone would launch a first strike nuke
                    attack on Israel (or Germany, or Japan...), because
                    the consenquence would be a serious beatdown from the US.
                    \_ Any nation that depends on another for it's survival is
                       already doomed.
                       \_ "No man is an island"
                    \_ Nuking Isreal doesn't make any sense for the Arabs;
                       the reason they hate Isreal is it's occupying lands
                       they view as sacred.  -tom
                 \_ Has Isreal ever even lost a battle against the Arabs?
                    \_ obviously you skipped Seder last night.
                 \_ No one has launched a full scale invasion of Israel
                    since they all got their asses handed to them and
                    Israel took over the West Bank and a chunk of Egypt
                    (subsequently returned).  Do not confuse causality
                    with circumstance.
                    \_ Like getting their asses handed to them the first two
                       times made a difference?  No.  That's why there were
                       three attacks.  There hasn't been one since '73 not
                       because the Arabs might get crushed again (we know this
                       because as stated it happened *3* times) but because of
                       the only change in the status quo, namely Israel has
                       the bomb.
                       \_ Check out the Federation of American Scientists:
                          http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke
                          According to this, Israel had nukes *before* the
                          1973 attack, and that did not deter it.  After
                          1973, the economy and the politics of the region
                          changed, and the annihilation of Israel took a
                          backseat.  After Egypt and Israel signed a peace
                          treaty, invasion became a non-issue: Syria, Jordan,
                          and Lebanon are too weak to force the issue, and
                          Saudi Arabia has its own issues to work out.
                    \_ What is "unspeakable worse" in your worldview?
                       Just curious.
2003/4/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28089 Activity:nil
4/11    It's open season on Palestinian activists.
        http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=396369
2003/4/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28059 Activity:nil
4/9     A reminder of how Israel was founded
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2930279.stm
        \_ From your own link, "Reports suggest that an Israeli-made grenade
           was found near the gates of the school and went off when students
           touched it."  And tonight's lesson on troll detection: if the OP
           didn't read their own link and then lies outright about the link
           topic (usually on a hot button issue), then the troll factor will
           sky rocket.  Nice try trollboy.  No cookie.
2003/4/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27968 Activity:high
4/3     That Jessica Lynch is tough.  I heard she shot several Iraqis and
        she didn't want to be taken alive.  Two broken legs, broken arm,
        and at least one gunshot wound.
        \_ She's a Palestinian.
           \_ Uh, no, she's not.  She's from Palestine, West Virginia.  She's
              as white and American as a girl can get.
                \_ the guy above was joking...
                   \_  What do you call someone from Philadelphia?
                       She's a Palestinian.  This is a useless but
                       correct fact.
        \_ Do you have a URL you can post?  This is interesting.
           \_ turn on cnn/msnbc/foxnews/cbs/whatever for 30 seconds.
        \_ like saving private ryan
           \_ no, nothing like saving private ryan.
        \_ Don't forget that she was also stabbed.
        \_ How'd she get the broken legs and broken arm?
           \_ I'm only guessing here, but from bullets?
              \_ Good assumption.
           \_ or maybe a little retrobution after she ran outta bullets and
           \_ or maybe a little retribution after she ran outta bullets and
              got captured.
        \_ I wonder why the Iraqi soldiers didn't execute her or sexually
           assault her.  I thought extreme Muslims treat women with little
           respect.
           \_ Well, they said she was crying all the time.  Maybe they just
              couldn't do it.
           \_ you dont know what they did to her.
              \_ We're pretty sure they didn't execute her, though.
                 \_ Clones!
2003/4/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27935 Activity:nil
3/31    Sharon is preparing the new Palestinian homeland:
        http://www.iht.com/articles/91651.html
        \_ Ok, I have read the entire article and couldn't find either
           "Palestinian" or "homeland" mentioned even once in it.
           \_ You have to read between the lines. Sharon is maneuvering a
              Syrian war so that he can transfer the Palestinians there,
              which the current peace treaty prevents.
2003/3/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27915 Activity:nil
3/30    The suicide bombings in Iraq will make the war look like:
        Israel invading Palestine:
        Israel invading Lebannon:
        US invading Somalia: .
2003/3/29 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27901 Activity:nil
3/28    Additional info about Rachel Corrie (lost the person vs. bulldozer
        contest a while ago, picture link was posted here)
        http://csua.org/u/be2
        If you don't like it, ignore it.  Don't delete it.
        \_ obhowcanyoubereadingworldnetdaily
           \_ I read (and check) the facts.  I also read Molly Ivins.  So?
           \_ I've read pretty much the same thing from several other sources.
              You think NPR is a better source of unbiased news?  How about
              Pravda?  They publish Pravda in English on the net now, but you
              probably knew that already.
              \_ obhowcanyoubereadingworldnetdaily
        \_ Please stop deleting this you hoser. -emarkp
2003/3/25-26 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27842 Activity:high
3/25    Want to learn the truth, the *real* truth about what's going on in
        the war, Greater Palestine, and the Muslim world in general?
        http://www.arabnews.com and link:english.aljazeera.net
        They're a bit slow but that's only because so many people have found
        an alternative to the lies you're being fed.
        \_ You know, I was always taught to suspect anyone claming to peddle
           "the *real* truth" about anything.  -John
           \_ You know that this is actually posted by an anti-arab trying
              to show how stupid arabs can be.
                \_ Hm I thought it was being posted by someone trying to
                   show how stupid arabnews and al jazeera are.  -John
                   \_ I posted this comment before and it was instantly
                      deleted.  "Al Jazeera" is Arabic for "Fox News."
                      \_ Because your comment was opinated drivel and based on
                         nothing.  If you backed it up with some facts you
        \_ What's the need?  The Muslim world has been at a standstill
           for 700 years.  Nothing has changed.  Pedophile camel jockeys
           on flying carpets.  It's obvious the world would be better off had
           the Muslim never existed.
        \_ Whas da need?  Da Muslim wold has been at a standstill
           fo seven hunned years, sheeit.  Nuffin' has changed.
           Pedophile camel jockeys on dem flying doodads.  Fosheezy,
           da world would be better off had the Muslim never been up
           in the club, damn straight.
           \_ Spoken like a true Papist.
                \_ Then prove me wrong with some facts, pagan.
                         would stay on the motd longer.
                \_ It is what it is.  Read the URLs and come to your own
                   conclusions.  It doesn't matter what the OP intended.
                \_ [racist content free troll deleted]
                   Look if you cannot figure out a way to make your
                   point without using racial epithets, you are going
                   to keep getting it deleted.
                        \_ You don't seem to be in such a hurry to delete
                           anti-semitic rhetoric.
                           \_ I'm the one who deleted the racist troll.  I'm
                              pro-Israeli and a Jew.  I deleted it because it
                              was a racist troll and added nothing to this
                              thread.
                           \_ Post all the rhetoric you want, just avoid
                              the camelf*cker routine, all right?
                           \_ This isn't much of an excuse, but whoever
                              that anti-semitic asshole is has only done
                              the "blame the jews for everything" routine,
                              while the anti-moslem asshole is openly
                              advocating their extermination.  I delete
                              both when I see them, but more promptly if it's
                              hateful, rather than just stupid.
        \_ Don't know about http://arabnew.com, but Al Jazeera is considered quite
           independent from the Arab governments.
           \_ Ah, the passive voice.  "is considered".  By whom exactly is it
              considered anything?  I consider Al Jazeera garbage 'news' and
              propaganda.  Next time why don't you say "... but Al Jazaeera is
              considered garbage 'news' and propaganda" in the future instead?
2003/3/25 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27832 Activity:insanely high
3/25    Freedom of speech at work
        http://csua.org/u/b84
        \_ You know how you say "Fox News" in Arabic? "Al-Jazeera."
           \_ If anything, Al Jazeera is one news agency which really
              worth respect.  It was being attacked by all fronts in the
              Middle East, and it's unfortunate that US has join the rank
              when the freedom of speech no longer serve their interest
                http://csua.org/u/b85
              \_ Thanks, that was good to know.
              \_ The basic problem Americans have with Al Jazeera is its
                 tendency to emphasize Palestinian suffering over its
                 suicide bombers:  "They blow themselves up because the
                 Jews give them no hope" rationalization.  But that's what
                 the viewers want.
                 \_ well why do you think they blow themselves up?
                    extreme boredom?
                    \_ get clue: it's brainwashing.
                 \_ what, you don't think blowing themselves up is done
                    out of hopelessness?  Who are you?
                    \_ see above.  there are plenty of people with less hope
                       in the world and none of them are blowing up kids in
                       pizza parlors and dance halls.
2003/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27725 Activity:nil
3/17    'For whose benefit these endless wars in a region that holds
         nothing vital to America save oil, which the Arabs must sell
         us to survive? Who would benefit from a war of civilizations
         between the West and Islam? Answer: one nation, one leader,
         one party. Israel, Sharon, Likud.' -Pat Buchanan
         \_ Someone besides me quotes Pat?  Cool!!!  -ax
            \_ No, lots of isolationists and racists quote Pat.  GO PAT! GO!
2003/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27723 Activity:very high
3/17    http://csua.org/u/adf
        Israeli Army Bulldozer Kills American Protester in Gaza.  Now, you can
        call me a bastard, but when one lies down in front of a
        tank/bulldozer/truck, etc., one must understand that the risk is that
        the driver will just take a hit off the sterno, make another mark in
        the dash, and hit the gas.  Though I feel bad for the woman, another
        part of me can't help but feel warm and fuzzy at seeing self-righteous
        protestors with stupid tactics getting what's coming to them.  My
        favorite quote:
        The Israeli troops "have shot over our heads, and shot near our feet
        --they have fired tear gas at us," said Michael Shaik,
        media coordinator for the group. "But we thought we had an
        understanding. We didn't think they would kill us."
        \_ My favorite was them going on and on in the newspaper about how they
           were *certain* the bulldozer would stop.  It just *had* to, right?
        \_ It's just the way of that sort of people.  The meaning "compassion"
           means nothing to them.  Sharon the Butcher encourages this with
           his rhetoric, and the pro zionists here love it so that they can
           increase their wealth with war profiteering.
           \_ Bullshit.  It's all about killing American students.  Jews
              reall hate American students (and a woman!) so they killed her!
        \_ The article also mentions a 13 year old boy and an unarmed man
           who were killed.  Were they being self-righteous for being in the
           "combat zone?"  A "combat zone" that happens to be where they
           live?  Maybe you should do a little thought experiment where you
           imagine your response to some soldiers showing up to your
           neighborhood who then decide to knock down your house without
           warning.  Then perhaps they shoot at you, kill a few neighbors,
           maybe your wife or child.  If you can't symphathize with that
           then you're worse than a bastard.  Maybe that self-righteous
           American just couldn't stand by and watch it all go down on
           CNN anymore.  At least she tried to change something, what
           have you done?
           \_ Ever wonder how their front yard got to be a combat zone?
              And what have YOU done?  Posted to the motd about it?  I've come
              \_ how about running away?  or joining a suicide bombing squad?
              to the realization that giving "A's for effort" reinforces some
              pretty awful behavior, for instance, suicide bombing.  At least
              they tried, indeed.  And in your thought experiment, I pick up
              a gun and shoot back.  I sure as hell don't count on anyone to
              to take pity on me and bail me out.  If it happens, I'd be
              grateful, but I don't count on it. -op
              \_ how about running away?  or joining a suicide bombing squad?
                \_ every time they "shoot back" the israeli army fires
                   a tank missile or knocks someone ELSE's house down,
                   and then the cycle begins all over again, i am so glad
                   i don't live there.
                   \_ You mean every time the palestinian children throw
                      a stone, Sharon's Butcher SS shoots US missles at their
                      village? Yeah.  Well you can thank the pro-zion
                      influence in congress for that.  Might I add, that
                      missile was from YOUR and MY taxdollars.
                      \_ Stones for the cameras, rockets at night when naive
                         kids like you aren't watching TV and the reporters
                         are out getting laid.
                   \_ I always find it odd how the Palestinians don't go
                      and throw rocks at the Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians
                      or Egyptians, all of which at some point perpetrated
                      fairly egregious acts against the Palestinians.  Not
                      to excuse what the Israelis (and their settlers) do, but
                      one does get the impression that a bit of anti-semitism
                      (let's be honest, a lot of the 'let's-drive-the-fucking-
                      Jew-bastards-into-the-sea' rhetoric thrown around by
                      various Arab groups doesn't get very conscientiously
                      reported by Western media) is a lot easier than any sort
                      of even-handed assessment of who's to blame for one's
                      predicament.  And frankly, although they're reacting in
                      a brutish, uncivilized manner, this time it wasn't the
                      Israelis who started provoking everyone in sight by
                      completely disregarding an agreed-upon peace agreement.
                        -John
                      \_ Gandhi did little for India other than ruin it and
                         condemn it to fifty plus years of poverty and
                         financial ruin and communal violence. Instead of
                         going around fasting and talking non-sense he should
                         have supported Bose and the others who wanted to
                         liberate India in the same way that the founding
                         fathers liberated America from the British.
                      \_ John, you're right that the other Arab states have
                         done (and continue to do) their fair share of
                         Palestinian oppression.  It's just that the Israelis
                         are a much more present target (i.e., in Palestine)
                         and the other Arab nations are much more vicious
                         in suppressing protest in their own countries (i.e.,
                         they'll deport agitators to Palestine so quick it'll
                         make your head spin).  If the other Arab states
                         wanted to do something about the Palestinian issue,
                         they could offer to make a homeland within their
                         own territory... but that's not a popular idea.
                         --erikred
                         \_ Or like Jordan they can surrender a huge chunk of
                            land, cut it off and say it isn't their problem
                            anymore.  I think Israel should do the same.
                         \_ Or they can just kill themselves with fear...
                            http://csua.org/u/ae9
                         \_ 40% of the Palestinians already live in Jordan.
                            And creating a "homeland" for Palestinians
                            outside of Palestine would simply legitimize
                            Isreal's ethnic cleansing.
                            \_ Sure, and creating a Palestinian state in
                               Palestine will legitimize suicide bombings.
                               Look, we can argue the semantics all day, but
                               if you're looking for practical solutions,
                               carving a homeland out of Jordan is not an
                               unreasonable solution.  --erikred
                               \_ It's very unreasonable to the Jordanians.
                               \_ It is unreasonable to everyone but Isreal.
                                  \_ Wow, that's pretty damned clueless.
                            \_ You don't know what ethnic cleansing means. If
                               you take the meanest word in your vocabulary,
                               (racism, murder, nazi, rapist, etc) and apply
                               it universally the word loses meaning.
                               \_ What do *you* call it then? Sharon
                                  calls it "involuntary population
                                  transfer."
                                  \_ When exactly has Sharon tried pushing
                                     Arabs out of the WB or Gaza?  When has
                                     Sharon done such a thing?  You can't name
                                     the year because it has never happened.
                                     *I* call it, "you're a lying POS racist".
                                     \_ I notice you don't answer the
                                        question. Sharon has forcably
                                        moved thousands to build
                                        settlements and plans to move
                                        thousands more when the fence
                                        is built. And where did all the
                                        land in 1948 come from? Go ahead and
                                        delete this, your kind cannot stand
                                        the light of the truth.
                                        \_ it's called tit for tat
                   \_ Bingo.  Which would suggest that someone is employing
                      the wrong tactics.  I should note that Ghandi managed
                      to free all of India through a campaign of hunger
                      strikes and non-violent struggle.  Though as a
                              \- well that is a little simple. --psb
                      counter-point, similar campaigns have done precious
                      little to free Tibet from China's oppressive rule. -op
                      \- and the chinese didnt run over the stand in front of
                         a tank fellow at tianamen sq. states should be held
                         to a higher standard. --psb
                         \_ "fellow"?  You know why you don't know his name?
                            Because they grabbed him and executed him in some
                            dark alley.  His name will never be known.
                            \_ Google for this, you will find an article
                               which mentions him being at large.
                      \_ lying down in front of a bulldozer isn't perpetuating
                         a cycle of violence, unless you only count violence
                         by Isreal.  -tom
                         \_ Actually she didn't lie down.  She tripped and
                            fell and then got run over.  It was nothing so
                            noble, just simple clumsiness.
              \_ will the non-pedophiles please think of the children??
                            \_ Not according to all the news reports.
                               What is your source?
                \_ I don't think the Israelis will "cave in" to
                   Palestinian demands if the Palestinians all
                   simultaneously bombard Israel with a huge campaign
                   of pacifism and non violence.  but their current
                   strategy isn't working too well either, i guess
                   they're screwed.
                   \_ Demands?  Which ones?  The ones where the Israelis all
                      go jump in the sea?
        \_ US seems to be the opposite extreme of this. If in the US, some
           bulldozing company were to accidentally bulldoze over an "innocent"
           deer or dog, there would be protests all over and it would become
           a front page human interest story... both the US extreme and
           Israeli extreme seem fucked up to me. ~apolitical.
           \_ if there were weekly suicide bombings, your thinking might be
              different
           \_ ruby ridge.  waco.  it's ok to whack fringe right-wing types.
              \_ No, wackos with guns. You're forgetting the 60's and 70's
                 when the FBI took out left-wing fringe groups.
                 \_ No one at Waco had guns.  Except the ATF.
                    \_ LOL! Ah, that's why agents died storming them. It was
                       the cows who shot them...
        \_ hey, that dead chick is pretty cute!
           \_ was.  but that's ok.  stupid chicks are all over campus.  you'll
              find another one.
        \_ >z
           Time passes...

           The bulldozer thunders toward you.  The ground is shaking beneath
           you as you lie in the mud.
           \_ You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
           \_ > enjoy mud
2003/1/29 [Politics/Domestic/SIG, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27230 Activity:very high
1/28    http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
        Go ahead and keep deleting it. I will keep putting it back.
        \_ the truth shall set you free. I find it more accurate to search
           for the word "israel" in the actual letter of the law.  As in here
           http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107bC8waW
           I've gone back a few years.  Israel always get more than Egypt
           despite what garbage alexf spews.   The truth shall set you
                        \_ care to elaborate on this reference? (and while
                           you're at it, give a functional url and sign
                           your name) -alexf
           free.
        \_ israel should try giving some of the money to the arabs.
2003/1/25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27192 Activity:very high
1/24    Why is it that the motd is always filled with israel vs palestinian
        garbage?  And it stays up for a long time too with people reposting
        them.  Meantime, my posting on having an affair with married women
        or my incestuous relationship with my sister get nuked within a
        minute.  -pissed
        \_ Please post again!
        \_ Yeah, who really gives a shit.
        \_ Your stories are just not plausible. No sodan would get that
           kind of action.
           \_ False.  It happens, even to sodans.  In real life.  No
              shitting.  --btdt
                \_ yeah, why wouldn't sodans have incestuous relationships
                   with their sisters?
2003/1/21-22 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27180 Activity:very high
1/21    Second try: what church building/organization do you church-goers
        attend for worship? For example, "First Pres Church of Berkeley"
        or "First Congregational". No, I didn't nuke the original post;
        someone else did.
        \_ Thai Buddhist Temple - services are from 10 am to around 2pm.
           Bring about $6 for a good session.
        \_ http://csua.org/u/833 (in oakland)
           \_ Do you know an obnoxious obese guy named Jeffrey there?
              \_ No, I know a skinny girl named Colleen there.
        \_ some may be afraid to say because they will be attacked here.
           \_ Good point. I don't mind anon answers.
           \_ Speaking of which, anti-Christianity seems to be common here.
              But do you notice anti-Jewish, anti-Islam, anti-something
              else sentiment in the motd?
              \_ No because that won't be politically correct.
              \_ Post a link about Israel and the Jew haters crawl out from
                 under their rocks.
                 \_ A lot less people would be anti-Christian if
                    Christians didn't proselytize so damn much.
                 \_ Israel is a country. Judaism is a religion. Idiot.
              \_ Oh, I'd say there's almost as much anti-Semitism here.
                 But then it's stylish to be an anti-Semite.
        \_ The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: .
           \_ Not Christianity.
        \_ Why are you asking? Are you looking for a church?
           \_ Just interested. I go to FPCB.
        \_ FPCB: .
        \_ Raelian Church (for the orgies): .
        \_ Jesus has only one church.  hint: it wasn't built by men
           \_ What's the answer?
              \_ It was built by women.  Big Breasted Norse Teutonic women
                 who fell deer with their bow hunting skills, clad only in
                 a fur pelt and a belt for their daggers.
                 \_ Shit no!  You're a complete fucking idiot!  *EVERYONE*
                    knows they wore chainmail bikinis!  DUH!
                    \_ What, you _like_ scar tissue?
                    \_ Maybe in YOUR Blockbuster-censored, Brittany Spears
                       pop G-rated world they did..
2003/1/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:27113 Activity:high
1/15    http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030115-035849-6156r
        Israel's new policy of assassination in friendly nations.
        \_ We are doing the same (remember the Missile trick we pulled
           off in Yemen?).  This action is no different from PLO's
           suicide bombers
           \_ We do it better.  Nothing left but a burning wreck and a smear
              in the sand.
              \_ What?  You don't like giving a terrorist a cell-phone bomb
                 and then calling it?
                 \_ Ok, well that was kind of cool but I like the video game
                    aspect of Terrorst Hunter (req's directx 8.1 and 3d card).
           \_ Yemen is not a friendly nation, in people's spirit at least.
2003/1/10-11 [Finance/Banking, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27057 Activity:insanely high 50%like:27058
1/10    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/08/60II/main535732.shtml
        Bush economy hits home
        \_ Wow. You frickin' win! Congratulation for the most effective troll
           I've seen in months. I want to say there was some luck involved but
           that would deny your skill in saying so little. Again, bravo!
           \_ Especially with the real link above which actually talks about
              the economy for real but isn't full of the typical invented "I
              had a deadline" pseudo-journalism sob story fluff pieces.  But I
              guess reading about the real economy is hard.
        \_ One wonders why someone with a hourly income of $7.50 needs
           four kids. Most of the other sob stories chronicled in this
           article are equally lame. What these people need is a lesson
           in simple financial planning rather than a handout.
             \_ You are a moron.  The kids came before the layoffs and
                the rotten economy.  Savings last only so long.  This is
                a bind that you could find yourself in.... Or have you
                got enough money to keep you fed, clothed, and housed
                for the rest of your life?  Even if your stocks go fubar?
                If you do, then you're rich compared to the rest of us
                poor shmucks, and you should shut the fuck up, life's always
                easy for the rich.
                \_ I assume you're not rich so how the hell would you know?
                \_ So these people never though about how they are going
                   care for four kids if they lose their jobs? They just
                   assumed that they will be working for life? That is
                   just plain stupid.
                   As far as I'm concerned, I've planned for the case in
                   which I am no longer employeed. For this reason, not
                   all of my assets are tied up in stockes. I also lead
                   a very limited life such that I can survive for years
                   without income.
                   \_ Unless you lose your job and and someone you loves
                      gets sick and you can't pay.
                      \_ And if that happens to me you'll take care of me?
                         That's *really* nice of you!  Thanks!
                         \_ Yes I would.
           \_ Then come up with some way to fund this kind of education.
              Not everyone had parents who would pay for college.
              \_ My parents paid nothing but their income and home counted so
                 I got zero financial aid of *any* sort but I still made it
                 through Cal and I'm now one of those evil top 2%'ers. I have
                 no sympathy for the intentionally stupid slackers.
                 \_ what's the requirement to be a top 2%er?
                    \_ $350k+/year.
              \_ A basic hs edu. should cover this. If it doesn't then my
                 money is being misspent. My parents didn't pay for my
                 college edu. They couldn't afford it. I paid my own
                 way by working summer internships and getting scholarships.
             \_ What is all this bullshit?  I see lots of college grads
                going bankrupt, lots of companies run by MBAs going bankrupt,
                people of all levels of education taking on too much debt,
                etc.  Government bailing out rich people by bailing
                out corporations.
           \_ One wonders why we send money to israel too.  At least
              those min wage earners earn money in our economy.
              - Altho i'm in favour of manditory norplant for welfare
                recipients
              \_ dude, really, you're just over smashing the hot buttons.
                 if you teased it out a bit more and were a bit more subtle
                 you'd get the fevered response you're looking for.
              \_ You know we spend more money protecting South Korea but I
                 don't see any of you Jew haters ever mentioning that fact.
                 \_ In SK we are protecting a vital national interest (h07
                    4zn ch1x!) from the commies.
                    \_ And they can't be hot if they come from a commie
                       country?  I've met plenty of hotties from Red China.
                        \_ Have you meet NK ch1x? They have bad teeth.
                           Same with most of the Mainland ch1x. SK, HK
                           and Japanese ch1x don't suffer from this.
                           \_ NK ch1x are too skinny also. Deathly thin.
                              \_ Yeah no shit.  Because it's a socialist
                                 country.  Just find and feed one.
                        \_ I hate this shit, someone deleted my message cuz
                           he doesn't agree with me.  Fuck you, whoever
                           did that
                           \_ Did you use motdedit?
                                \_ yup, I did, that is why I was pissed.

                    \_ Why don't you stupid Ruskies, Chinks, Yankees and
                       Japs just leave us alone.  We could care less about
                       your stupid fights for world domination.  Just go
                       home.  We don't want any of you.
              \_ The Jewish lobby.
                 \_ troll, go away.
              \_ What does this have to do with Israel? If you are implying
                 that we should take the money spent on Israel and give it
                 to the poor, you are extremely naive. This money would not
                 solve the poor problem (as demonstrated the new deal and
                 the war on poverty). In fact it would probably make things
                 even worse for the poor people since the fall of Israel
                 into Arab hands would have huge economic repercussions.
                 \_ disagree.  Israel is defiant to its stands mainly
                    because we dump 3 billions per year to them.  If
                    we stop funding them, then, they would for the
                    first time realize the true cost of sucide bombing.
                    By realize the actual cost of the war, there is a
                    much better chance for Israels to withdraw from the
                    west-bank and other occupied territory.
                    \_ Idiot.  You can't negotiate with people who want you
                       dead.  There isn't always a diplomatic solution.  The
                       Arab version of peace doesn't include an Israel.  How
                       incredibly naive but nicely utopian your universe is.
                        \_ There was a time when Arab nations were democratic
                           and reasonable, but we all (Americans and
                           Europeans) betrayed them and choose the Zionist
                           whose tatic were not much different from what
                           PLO today.  Remember, THEY are the one who lived
                           there for the past 2000 years, not Jews. and
                           talking about visions, The land which God
                           promise the Jews were a lot bigger than what
                           Israel is today.  Jewish's version of peace
                           is essentially whipe Jordan and Syria, and
                           good part of Egypt off the map.  Is that sound
                           any more reasonable?
                           \_ Come back when you stop rewriting history.  There
                              have been Jews there for more than 2000 years.
                              And no, blowing up some British military HQ and
                              similar structures is not at all the same as
                              sending your own children into pizza parlors and
                              malls to blow themselves and numerous civilians
                              to bits.  Not at all the same.  You are
                              completely wrong about the Israeli idea of peace.
                              If they really wanted to wipe out Jordan, Syria
                              and Egypt, they could have and would have before
                              now.  In fact, (sorry I know facts bother you
                              and get in your way but here another) the only
                              reason Jordan still *exists* is because Israel
                              told Syria that Israel would invade Syria if
                              Syria carried out their plans to invade Jordan.
                              You're either a liar or an idiot or both. I don't
                              care which but I won't let your ignorance and
                              racist spread unchecked.
                    \_ Israel's GDP is around $100bln/year. I am sure they
                       would tinghten their belts and make it even if the US
                       stopped the economic and military aid, IMHO.
                \_ are you sure?  Israel's economy seems pretty fucked
                   right now, and the fact that the entire Palestinian
                   economy is crippled beyond belief and they have no
                   hope isn't making them very happy.
                   \_ Without Israel what little stability there is in
                      the middle east would disappear. Most of these
                      arabs hate each other almost as much as they hate
                      Israel. One conflict is easier to deal with than
                      the dozen or so that would be present without
                      Israel. These little conflicts would cause extensive
                      damage to the entire petrochemical industry (if
                      you think that gas is expensive now, think about
                      when gas is 10x the cost it is today and the cost
                      of plastics skyrockets.)
           \_ One wonders why anyone with more money NEEDS four kids either.
              To help them spend it?
                \_ I'm not sure why anyone needs four kids, but if someone
                   wants that many they should be prepared to take care of
                   them without resorting to gov. help (why should I be
                   financially responsibly for someone else's kids?)
                   \_ Like the Monty Python boys said, "every sperm is sacred!"
                      And I agree with MP these people should just sell them
                      off to science.  Seriously, if they can't afford to take
                      care of their own kids, the local child welfare social
                      worker types will put them in foster care and that'll be
                      that.  "I have too many kids to feed!" is not a good
                      reason to give the parent handouts.
                      \_ I bet you who complain about taxes being high too.
                         Do you see any sort of cause-effect here? Who pays
                         the extra money to the foster family and for the
                         paperwork to track the child? D'oh!
                         \_ Of course my taxes are too high.  I have no problem
                            with government run orphanages or foster care and
                            the paperwork involved.  I have a problem with the
                            government creating multi generational dependency
                            and breaking the family structure.  And it's twice
                            as fucked up that they use my money to do it.
                            \_ And separating kids from parents is family
                               values?
        \_ You know what I hate? Whiny rich people who complain about their
           taxes and corporations who don't pay their share. Because they show
           no compassion, the government has to step in and do the right thing
           (which may or may not be the correct thing). That's why small
           government never works. The smallest you can get is a monarchy and
           an army/police force to control the masses.
           \_ The government doesn't tax to "do the right thing".  You're being
              ridiculous and conspiratorial.  Grow up and stop reading Catcher
              in the Rye.
              \_ Democracies do. Whether or not you agree that it's the "right
                 thing" does depend.
                 \_ There's nothing magical about a Democracy that makes it
                    morally better than any other form of government.  It's
                    nothing but mob rule.  And this nor any other country on
                    the planet is a democracy anyway.
                    \_ Yes, we've all had HS Gov. It's a repulbic. Don't you
                       feel much better now?
        \_ I like the idea of competition.  I like the results of healthy
           market competition.  That having been said, why can we not agree
           to guarantee basic food, shelter, and (mostly preventitive)
           medicine to all Americans and then require said Americans to
           work hard if they want more?
           \_ So you want to destroy the food, housing, and medical segments
              of the economy?  How about the "tech gap"?  Shouldn't we provide
              a basic palm-like device and a home computer and at least 256k
              DSL to everyone, too?  How about transport?  Don't you know the
              poorest of the poor can't even afford the city bus?  Let's make
              sure everyone has at least a low end basic car.  Where does it
              stop?
           \_ Because it would cost money. Which means taxes. Which means more
              whiny rich people and corporations pleading poverty and how life
              is "soooooo unfair?" See the above reply? Typical crap from
              someone who thinks not being hungry will lead to society collaspe.
              \_ Thanks for mis-stating everything I said and ignoring every
                 single thing I had to say and simply repeating your agenda
                 driven mantra about "whiny rich people".  You've really added
                 a whole lot to this thread with all the cut n paste replies.
                 \_ So having families stand in line for food is really the
                    American dream? Wow. Who'd have thunk? My problem is that
                    you've jumped from the idea of feeding and providing basic
                    healthcare to the poor to slacker heaven. Sheesh. Whiner.
           \_ Wow!  I can have the necesseties of life without working!  You
              guys can foot the bill, losers!  I'm kicking back.
              \_ Hmm, actually this sounds really good when you put it that way
                 and all these years I've been voting I never considered I
                 could just vote myself a life free of all real concerns. I'm
                 going to start voting Democrat.  It works like that, right?
              \_ Oops you guys missed the word "work" there.
                 \_ Nope.  It only says if I want more.  Since so few people
                    will be working I won't have to work very hard if I want
                    more.  You do realise that most people work very hard and
                    only get basic food, shelter, and medical care?  So making
                    those free (from other people's money) means the vast
                    majority of Americans could live the exact same life they
                    have now (under this 'plan') and not work at all. In fact,
                    since it is now a magical guarantee, their lives would
                    actually be much better.  Oh!  To live in Utopia!
                    \_ Actually it's called France, Sweden, Norway, Germany,
                       Denmark, Canada...
                       \_ *laugh*  Maybe you missed the links the other day
                          (for Germany) or several of these others in the past
                          on how their economies are so fucked they make ours
                          look 1999 vibrant?
                          \_ Are they starving their working poor too? Ah.
                             Doesn't this count as one of those human rights
                             violations the US keeps harping about?
2002/12/10 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26772 Activity:high
12/9    "Suit Against Cheney Task Force Dismissed"
        http://csua.org/u/691
        "...... was an unprecedented act that raised serious separation-of
        -powers issues between the executive and legislative branches of
        government."  An issue deeper than separation of church and state
        and affirmitive action.
        \_ dbushong: can you set up your URL-shortener to include the
           domain name in the shortened URL?  something like
           link:csua.org/u/yahoo.com/691 would be helpful.  In this case
           I was interested in the article, but it sounded like it might
           be just another freeper link.
           \_ or at least post where the shortener actually rediercts to
              so we can gauge whether a link is work-safe before finding out
              the hard way...
              \_ you mean goatsex flashing all over your screen would be a
                 problem?  you must not work for the same porno e-mag as me.
           \_ freeper links are simply stories linked from other news sites.
2002/11/24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/RealEstate, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26614 Activity:high 66%like:26612
11/23   landlord survey - your landlord is:
        black, white, puertorican or chinese boy: M
        \_ what's a "puertorican"?
        \_ Ever heard of "Puerto Rico"?
           \_ he means Borricuan.  (yes look it up).
           \_ Yes.  What's a "puertorican"?
              \_ its "Puerto Rican" with a typo. get over it.
               \_ Goddamn, one fucking space left out... it was a quote from a
                  shitty missy elliot song in case you didnt know.
        white:.
        black:..
        chinese:
        dirty, old, and indian:
        other azn:
        persian: .
        \_ are there persians anywhere but iran? why dont people say iranian?
        racist:
        a jew: .
             \_ you mean evil money grubbing vampiric baby killing jew, right?
                \_ You forgot lying, and backstabbing.
                \_ mmm, vampiric babies
                   \_ I believe it's a string of adjectives modifying the
                      object jew but you knew that.
        who cares?: .............
        small, green, and filled with jam: .
        racist: go BEAH
        old white woman with 6 cats, 2 birds, and an old mangy dog: .
        no idea: .
2002/11/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26589 Activity:high
11/21   Another $10b (that's BILLION) down the drain for the Jews.
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23125-2002Nov21.html
        \_ Actually, it's for the Israelis.
        \_ Man, intolerance is so fucking cool.  Makes me glad to be a
           a member of this organiztion. -dans
           \_ What's tolerant about giving $10b to a foreign nation (a nation
              whose nat'l religion is Judaism)? That could fund approx.
              1000 startups.
              \_ Ahem. 'Another $10b (that's BILLION) down the drain for the
                 Jews.' -dans
        \_ I guess spelling is no longer a requirement to be a ap reporter
           or editor: "jump-strating" indeed.
        \_ Am I the only one who actually read the link?  All of you are
           morons.  The article does not say any such thing.  Shame on all
           of you for your brash stupidity.
           \_ OPs interpretation of the article is that the loan guarantee
              that is being sought is equivalent to pouring money down the
              toilet. Whether or not his interpretation is correct should
              be self-evident.
           \_ OP is stupid and didn't read it at all.  The US is NOT loaning
              $10b, the article even says if Isreal repays the loan, there is
              NO cost to the US at all. -ERic
        \_ Yawn.  Anti-semitism's easy when you're anonymous.  Sign your
           screed next time, troll, or expect to get plonked. --erikred
2002/11/15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26550 Activity:kinda low
11/15   wether you are for or against gun control, you should listen to
        this, just as a classic example of propoganda:
        http://csua.org/u/585
        \_ would it be asking too much for people posting csua shortlinks
           to describe the data type - in this case, mp3?   And then for
           a summary, not a vague topic reference?
2002/11/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Health/Sleeping] UID:26509 Activity:high
11/11   Can somebody clarify how exactly the settlers of the occupied
        territories make a living?  The latest shakeup in Sharon's gov't
        seems to be over money for settlers.  That leads me to believe that
        the gov't pays them to live there and do nothing else.  The settlements
        are too far from any private sector jobs, right?
        \_ They get paid bounty for murdering palestinian children in their
           sleep and using their fresh blood in their satanic jew rituals of
           evil.  I thought everyone knew that?
        \_ They steal olive groves and orange trees from Palestinians and
           pick the fruit. No joke, the settlements sit on most of the best
           farmland.
           \_ bullshit.  they get paid by the American tax payer supported
              Israeli government to kill palestinian children for their wicked
              blood rituals.  (when you grow up and stop trolling maybe I'll
              tell you the real answer to the OP's question except the OP
              looks like a troll too)
2002/10/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:26358 Activity:nil
10/29   Break out your wallet...
        'Haitians coming ashore in Key Biscayne, FL'
        By some estimates there are 13 million illegals in this country.
        http://csua.org/u/48c
        \_ Freeper Guy - I thought something bad had happend to you.
           I love you, man!
2002/10/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26337 Activity:kinda low
10/28   Dear Russian motdians, how do you tell if someone's from Ukrain,
        Russia, or other Republics? For example, can you tell from their
        last name like <something>ski, <something>gorodov, <something>ninoff,
        etc?
        \_ Ask them.
        \_ Russian endings: ov/ova, iy/aya (e.g. ivanov, kulikovskiy)
           Ukranian endings: ko (e.g. bondarenko)
           Armenian endings: ian (e.g. kevorkian)
           Georgian endings: dze/tze shvili (e.g. shevardnadze dzhugashvili)
           These are rules of thumb though, and jewish last names are pretty
           diverse.
           \_ More standard assumptions (i.e. what people will assume without
              asking in Russia based on last name alone):
              Russian: -in/-ina, -off (old latinization of -ov)
              Polish/Belarussian: -skiy/-skaya (generally assumed NOT russian,
              contrary to the above).
              Lithuanian/Latvian: -is/-as/-us
              Azerbaijani: -gli/-glu (same ending, different latinization, same
              as -glI in Turkish, which Azeri is effectively a dialect of); I
              suppose these can also show up in Turkmen, Uzbek, and the like,
              but they seem to not do so too often.
              Central Asian / Azerbaijani: Russian endings attached to Turkic,
              Arabic, or Altaic first names. Hard to quantify in terms of
              endings alone.
              Estonian: anything sounding like Finnish; double consonants and
              double vowels anywhere, stuff ending in -u
              Standard Jewish: -man/-zon/-son
              Anything else remotely germanic-sounding (or foreign-sounding
              in general, for most people in an average village) -- Jewish
              is assumed anyway.
                 -alexf, whose last name "sounds unusual" and thus is
                  immediately [correctly] assumed to be Jewish by most people
                  from the former USSR
           \_ my proj lead is Ukrainian and his last name is
              zhegorodov. He said he used to be a farm boy, whatever
              that means.
              \_ That's why they are rules of thumb.  People intermarry,
                 etc.
              \_ Indeed, rules of thumb only. Although a Russian _could_
                 probably _guess_ that the above is Ukranian or at least
                 near the border -- the stem is "Zhegorod", a place name
                 (since "gorod" is the root for "city"), and the _place
                 name_ sounds Ukranian more than anything. Keep in mind that
                 anyone who grows up in a diverse environment which doesn't
                 have a US-style pressure against drawing lines along ethnic
                 boundaries will learn a ton of subtleties of this sort
                 without noticing, since everyone uses them to distinguish
                 between "us" and "them", for all values of "us." -alexf
2002/10/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26165 Activity:very high
10/12   You'd figure a pacifist country like this wouldn't be a target, but:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2322275.stm
        \_ "According to a government spokesman Mikko Norros, a foreign
           terrorist organisation is not believed to have been
           responsible for the bomb - rather a deranged individual or
           an organised crime group. "
           personaly, I believe him.  they're finns.  what motivation
           do they have to lie?  as to pacifism, finland has mandatory
           military service for all men.  no cookie.
           \_ more like swiss "armed neutrality"
              \_ well, I think it's more just "hey, let's not get fucked over
                 by russia like all the other countries nearby"
           \_ *laugh* You're so naive.  Yeah, the first time in history that
              the mob has used a suicide bomber.  That makes a lot of sense.
              Duh, by definition anyone who blows themselves up in a mall is
              deranged so that's a meaningless statement as well.  It was your
              standard PLO/Hamas style suicide bombing in a public shopping
              center.  Just like the French trying to claim the tanker wasn't
              an act of terror, also.  A five year old could see this govn't
              spokesman's statement is ridiculous.  They haven't even collected
              all the body parts and he's already claiming it wasn't an act of
              middle-east style terror.  Nonsense.
              \_ The person jumping to conclusion is the person who said:
                 "You'd figure a pacifist country like this wouldn't be a
                  target, but ..."
                 \_ This is a silly response.  The motd isn't a public forum
                    and I doubt the OP is an official government spokesman
                    feeding propoganda to the public.  You're ducking the
                    issue.  I stand by what I said before: they haven't even
                    collected the body parts and know almost nothing about
                    what happened when this mouthpiece puts out official word
                    that it wasn't an act of middle eastern style terrorism,
                    but was instead some garbage about the world's first
                    suicidal mafia hit (on a mini mall, no less).  For now,
                    I'm willing to grant them benefit of the doubt on not
                    releasing identifying details about the bomber beyond his
                    age and gender, but they don't get that benefit forever.
                    \_ i'll keep being naive and you keep being paranoid,
                       and we'll see who has a better life.
        \_ This is why we need a regime change in Iraq. Terrorist attacks will
           continue while Saddam is in power. -G.W. Bush
2002/10/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26098 Activity:insanely high
10/4    how did John Walker Lindh even break the law, causing him now
        to be sentenced to 20 years in jail? what's illegal with joining
        the taliban, despite their unusual beliefs and practices?
        \_ I think this is how it goes: 9/11 was done by Al Qaida, so we
        \_ I guess this is how it goes: 9/11 was done by Al Qaida, so we
           calssified Al Qaida as an enemy to this country.  The Taliban is
           assocated with Al Qaida, so we classified the Taliban as an enemy to
           this country.  Now, it is illegal for a citizen to join an enemy
           to this country, so Lindh broke the law.
           \_ ex post facto
              \_ not so.  he stayed there with them *after* 9/11 and *after*
                 he knew american soldiers were there fighting against his
                 terrorist pals.  thanks.
                 \_ Yeah because walking out of a fanatical camp in the
                    middle of Afghanistan with no food, money, or support is
                    the best thing to do.
                    \_ 1) tough shit, 2) others managed to change sides or
                       safely surrender all over the place, 3) tough shit
                       \_ Who? Name one American citizen fighting with the
                          Taliban who did so.  They'd have shot his ass as
                          a deserter.  Lindh's going to jail because the
                          Feds have shown his lawyers enough evidence to
                          suggest he helped kill a CIA spook who was
                          conducting "interrogations" in the POW camp,
                          and his lawyers told him to take 20 over the chair.
                          \_ Why must it be an American I name?  As far as we
                             know there was only 1 traitor there when Mike
                             Spann was murdered.  Did you have a point?  Your
                             cheesey 3rd grader quality attempt to redfine the
                             debate by putting words in my mouth was beyond
              \_ IDF allows anyone to apply as long as they can read,speak Hebrew
                             ridiculous.  Frankly, this stupid prick is safer
                             in a cell than on the street where someone is
                             going to kill this punk.  He'll suck some prison
                             dick but he won't be dead which he should be.
                             \_ Don't be a schmuck.  You must name an
                                American because JWL was an American and
                                would've been shot had he tried to defect
                                from the Taliban.  Why he didn't ID himself
                                as such when the Spann and the rest of the
                                "interrogation" squad showed up is a
                                mystery, but perhaps he didn't know the
                                rest of the prisoners were going to riot.
                                My point is that he's going to jail not for
                                just being in the Taliban or being a "traitor."
                                \_ Child, I don't *have* to but because you're
                                   so cute, I will anyway.  Go look up the 4
                                   guys that got picked up last week.  1 of
                                   them didn't like his new psycho jihadi
                                   friends and left.  Jihad Johny didn't ID
                                   himself because he (in his mind) was talking
                                   to the enemy, ya know, the enemy, Americans.
                                   A mystery?  What utter crap.  How can you
                                   expect to be taken even halfway seriously
                                   spewing about how a bus sized hole in your
                                   line of 'reasoning' is simply a mystery
                                   while simultaneously making bogus claims
                                   about what I *have* to prove to you?
                                   Because you lost based on reality and now
                                   you lost on your new self-defined reality.
                                   Go home, read some newspapers, keep up with
                                   what's going on in the real world and you
                                   won't be forced to look like a jerkoff here.
                                   He was *LUCKY* to get only 20 years.  It was
                                   a *VERY* generous offer.  If he pulled that
                                   shit as a citizen of *any* other country on
                                   this planet, he'd be dead if he was lucky
                                   and never see the sun again if not.  This is
                                   the only country that doesn't execute
                                   fucking traitors and other scum like JWL.
        \_ John Walker is an American citizen, and thus owes allegiance to
           this country (immigrants take the oath explicitly, he was born
           into it).  By fighting against American troops, he committed
           treason.  It's kind a scary anti-utopian word, but he can be tried
           for it nevertheless.  Personally I think he got off easy.
           \_ treason is a scary anti-utopian word?  say what?  I agree that
              he got off easy.  So did all the FBI & CIA traitors who sold us
              out to the soviets.  Life in prison is way too easy.
        \_ *Any* participation in a foreign militia is grounds for loss of
           citizenship.  Bush was soft.  He should have had his citizenship
           revoked, then put in federal prison, and when his prison term was
           over, he should be deported.
           \_ the only exception is Israel.  Lots of Americans serve in the
              Israeli military and wave the Israeli flag around.  Who do
              you think they're loyal to?  Frankly, I think anybody who served
              in ANY foreign military should be deported.  Including all the
              Israelis.
              \_ Talk to your Reps about eliminating the possibility of dual
                 citizenship and while you're at it see if they'll get someone
                 to enforce the other weak immigration and citizenship laws.
              \_ IDF allows anyone to apply as long as they can read,speak
                 Hebrew
              \_ yeah how do they get around the law to do that?
                 that's always confused me.
                 \_ Wasn't Israel to become the 51st state? j/k ;p
                    \_ I thought that was Britain, although Blair denied it a
                       few days ago.
              \_ Really?  A recent episode of JAG talks about a jew in US
                 marine who goes to join the Israeli military, and whether he
                 should be treated as a traitor.  I didn't watch the episode
                 and didn't know the outcome.  I just heard the trailer on the
                 radio.
                 \_ No, not really at all.  They're making shit up because the
                    average person doesn't know either way and accepts their
                    anti-semitic lies as facts.
                 \_ Please do not rely on TV drama to get your understanding of,
                    well, anything.  My work here is done.
                    \_ You mean Westwing isn't real life?
           \_ flying tigers.
              \_ you mean the american pilots getting paid by uncle sam to
                 fight for the chinese using american weapons, american ammo,
                 lead by american commanders?  those flying tigers?
           \_ You are full of crap:
              http://travel.state.gov/military_service.html
              \_ True, but the little fucker is still a traitor and should be
                 shot.
              \_ Relevant quote: "Although a person's enlistment in the armed
                 forces of a foreign country may not constitute a violation of
                 U.S. law, it could subject him or her to Section 349(a)(3) of
                 the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] which
                 provides for loss of U.S. nationality if an American
                 voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S.
                 citizenship enters or serves in foreign armed forces engaged in
                 hostilities against the United States or serves in the armed
                 forces of any foreign country as a commissioned or
                 non-commissioned officer."
                 So it looks like I just made the mistake that it's only
                 officers that are automatic.  If you're not an officer you have
                 to be involved in hostilities against the US...like Lindh.
                 \_ Jeez! Don't you know a non-commissioned officer is an
                    enlisted man. You stupid Berkeley types who never understood
                    the military or it's structure. So no. You made a big
                    mistake.
                      \_ At least I can format @ 80 columns
                    \_ <Sigh> How pathetic and puny...
                    \_ Not all enlisted people are NCOs.
                       \_ Are you a dumbass?  He said all NCOs are enlisted.
                          Your statement is true, but is not a refutation of
                          what he said, and is simply irrelevant.  Your idiocy
                          is pissing me off, go away.
        \_ On a related note, I heard that permanent residents here are allowed
           to serve in our military, and maybe even required to served during
           war time.  How does that work with their citizenship elsewhere?
           \_ Who cares what their third world homes have to say about it?
              \_ But to whom are they supposed to be loyal?
                 \_ if they were so loyal, why did they leave?
                    \_ welfare for illegal aliens available here.
2002/9/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26044 Activity:high
9/29    "We defeated the Israelis" declares member of Arafat security forces.
        http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=topnews&StoryID=1509990
        \_ Written by... Wafa Amr. Unbiased press? Hehehe...
        \_ defeat is not always military.  And this last siege HURT Isreal bad.
           It looked bad, they flat out said no to the UN, they pissed off the
           US, they helped shore up the popularity of a struggling Arafat,
           AND they didn't get what they came for.
           \_ Depends on the goal.  If the goal is to keep a weak Arafat around
              by giving him a "boost" in order to delay or stop the formation
              of a Palestinian pseudo-state, then I'd say the Palestinian
              people lost big time, even if Arafat and his thugs won a short
              reprieve from exile, jail, or death.  Either way, the thugs were
              hardly the ones who 'defeated' Israel or did anything more than
              eat the food, drink the water, and use the eletricity the
              Israelis gave them.  Not much of a siege when the siegers are
              delivering food by truck everyday to your front door, eh?
2002/9/4 [Reference/Tax, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25765 Activity:very high
9/3     http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=1309807
        This is just what the world needs.  Global taxes on rich countries to
        alleviate world wide poverty.  France says it'll only take $100b/year
        forever to do it.  I can't wait to be a Citizen of the World and I'll
        even get my own Universal Identicode & Tracking Unit implanted in my
        brain.  Sweet!
        \_ How about foreign aid to israel?  How much of your hard earn
           tax dollars goes towards people who study religious texts all
           day and have children all nights and do not work for a living?
           The US sponsors judaism?!  I want money for my christian schools
           here in the US!
           \_ $2b/year to Israel.  $2b/year to Egypt.  Not very much.  There's
              more government waste than that by far.  Thanks for trolling.
              \_ Just last week I read that there is a 3-2 ratio between aid
                 to Israel and Egypt.
                 \_ Some perspective on this: it costs us $1b/day to send
                    an army to another country such as Iraq'91.  Per day, yes.
                    If we weren't bribing both countries to be nice to each
                    other what are the odds we'd have spent more than that on
                    more than one occasion to keep one from destroying the
                    other?  What's the cost of cleaning up Cairo after a nuke?
                    What's the cost of sending in enough troops to keep the
                    Egyptians and others from genociding the Israelis? Thanks.
        \_ Oh great.  'Cause welfare works so well, we want to expand it to a
           global scale.  Doesn't anyone even pay attention to history?
           \_ the US welfare system sucked, for example paying kids to have
              even more kids; however, what's wrong with trying to eliminate
              poverty? Use the money for job training, loans so that ppl can
              start businesses, get an education, improve infrastructure, so
              that they can become self-sufficient? And when times are tough,
              like they are today, it would be good to have that minimal
              paycheck so that you don't lose your home and can have food on
              the table until the economy rebounds.
              \_ one word, kleptocracy
                 \_ To expand on this, the recent past has shown that when we
                    send money and/or food into nations with corrupt leadres,
                    the resources don't get there.  The corrupt leaders line
                    their pockets.  Look at just about any country in Africa,
                    Haiti or the Palestinians for examples.
                        \_ Stop bringing fact and reality into this.
                        \_ DON'T CRITICIZE THE PALESTINIANS, whatever you do.
                           We all know it is a Jewish conspiracy against the
                           camel jockeys.
                           \_ I'm not criticizing the palestinians.  I am
                              criticizing their corrupt leader.
                              \_ Leaders.  It's a plural thing there and other
                                 corrupt pseudo nations as well.
                              \_ it will be a great day when the secular
                                 government of isreal/palestine has a
                                 double trial for terrorism for arafat
                                 and sharon.
                                 \_ Sharon already had a trial, thanks.
                                    The palestinians don't have anyone left
                                    who can run a government.  All the
                                    reasonable people got murdered in the
                                    streets by Arafat's hit squads.  There
                                    won't be a palestinian government in your
                                    lifetime and the odds of a truly secular
                                    one are about zero.
                                    \_ that depends on how long i live.
                                       consider any 10 countrys, and look
                                       at where they were 100 years ago.
                                       the world changes.
                                       \_ Pick any 10 muslim countries.
        \_ I like to think that having random acts of terror and the slow
           internal destruction of US civil liberties, not including the
           increasing autocrastic governmental rule as payment enough.
           \_ Civil liberties have been eroding since FDR.  Good call.  I like
              the way you think.  You have a good historical perspective and
              aren't babbling about how GWB was the start of it all like some
              other zero-historical-perspective motd scribblers around here.
              Actually, some would say it goes back even further to the 16th.
2002/8/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Recreation/Media] UID:25551 Activity:nil
8/13    Anybody watch "meet my folks"?  Have you noticed that the short
        jewish guy is always the first one to go?
        \_ you mean, in that one episode, and that one episode only,
           he happened to be the first to go? if so, then no I didn't.
        \_ i assume you mean short jewish guys are the first to go in other
           reality tv shows. care to name a few?
        \_ Have you seen Robert Redford's "Quiz Show"?  Jews are always
           kicked off after winning a few rounds.
           \_ Since we label everything as racism, can I also say that
              Asians rarely even get to be on the shows?
              \_ Yeah but contestants need to pass a pre-show test and be
                 interesting for TV.
                 \_ Yeah I know, but I might as well call it racism, since
                    everytime we minotiries fail to do something we scream
                    discrimination and the white folks can't say we're abusing
                    our status in order to be PC.
                    \_ You're abusing your status.  -cracker boy
        \_ After the holocaust and the terrorist bombings, you'd
        think some people would take a hint.
2002/7/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25441 Activity:high
7/29    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18722-2002Jul29.html
        I post this not to say Israel/Palestinians are good/bad/whatever but
        to demonstrate the bias in our media today.  One line in particular
        really grabbed me towards the end, "The settlers were bringing the
        body of a soldier killed in a Palestinian attack to their cemetery
        when a riot erupted".  This is an odd phrase.  Why did a riot erupt?
        'Riots' are not active verb actors in a sentence.  The truth here is
        that while the Israelis were in a funeral procession, some Palestinians
        started throwing rocks and yelling racial slurs and about 100 Israelis
        broke away from the procession, vandalised a bunch of shops, stabbed a
        7 year old, and beat up a bunch of people.  "A riot erupted" indeed.
        Does AP or the WP think their readers are too immature to handle the
        whole story?  A story where both sides had fault?  Too complicated for
        their typical reader?  Modern media is crap.  My advice: think for
        yourself, question everything.  Sorry this is so long.
        \_ The media has to perpetuate the crusade for both sides.  If the
           American public ever realized how utterly stupid and pointless
           middle eastern politics is, we'd either invade or just let them
           slug it out tooth and nail.  I've swayed back and forth several
           times during my politically conscious period, and I've decided that
           I support Israel, not because of moral highground but because they
           are more cooperative with us militarily and we need a base of
           operations in that region.
2002/7/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25272 Activity:moderate
7/3     For those long URLs you tried to post to the motd, try
        http://csua.org/u
        \_ this application is obviously pro-palestinian and anti-semitic.
           \_ this comment is obviously pro-palestinian and anti-semitic.
              \_ dict semitic.  palestinians are semitic.
                 \_YOU'RE anti-semitic!
                 \_ After Israel succeeds in wiping out the palestinians
                    there will no longer be this ambiguity about the meaning
                    of the word semitic.
                    \_ *sigh*  you didn't read the definition, did you?
                       semitic people speak semitic languages, which
                       includes Arabic.  palestinians are not the only
                       arabic speakers in the world.  if you're going
                       to troll, troll, but at least use the language
                       correctly.
                        \_ Sorry, sir.
                        \_ Semitic derived from progeny of Shem, descendant
                           of Noah.
                 \_ the extermination of the palestinian race is the only
                    way that israel can survive!  FUCK THEM PALESTINIANS.
                 \_ webster simitic.  The word can also refer to jewish only.
                    Your comment is obviously pro-dict and anti-webster. :-)
        \_ Wow!  Who wrote it?  How long are the shortcuts good for?
           \_ dbushong.  Until he cleans out the database.
        \_ cool.
        \_ It's the little things that count.  Nice work.
        \_ Wow, this is nice.
2002/7/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25263 Activity:high
7/2     Hillary votes in favor of using military force to free Americans
        held by ICC. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-344149,00.html
        \_ And?
           \_ And I'm shocked and horribly disappointed she would vote for
              this horrendous PR garbage.
        \_ I can't believe the article didn't call the act by the name
           given to it by some Europeans: The Netherlands Invasion Act.
        \_ "The idea that its some right-wing paranoid fear about the
           International Criminal Court (ICC) is not true."
           Sigh...  right wing has nothing to do with it.  Those who are
           against it in this country are those with the most to lose: the
           corporations committing human rights violations the world over
           and, by extension, the politicians who must back them to remain
           in power.  oh yeah, and the military by yet another extension
           of the corporate structure.
           \_Riiiiight.  Include in there the people who believe that giving the
             rest of the world the power to yank our chain whenever they like
             isn't a good idea.  Hell, when the UN can have a conference on
             racism that condemns Jews (not to mention the Jenin fiasco), it
             would be insane to give the current world forum any power, real or
             imaginary over the US.
             \_ "Condemns Jews"? Right. Any criticism of israel is anti-semitic.
2002/6/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25214 Activity:nil
6/26    http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20020626.shtml
        Asking the question, "why does the left support the Palestinians and
        not Israel?"
        \_ why do israeli soldiers sodomize palestinian youth and drive them
           to become suicide bombers?
           \_ Why do you forget to cite reliable sources when you spout
              your mindless pro-palestinian propaganda? Could it be because
              there aren't any?
              \_ why do you not realize that was a troll?
                 \_ why don't you realize that the only reason for keeping
                    this shitty account or logging into this machine
                    is to read trolls and flames on the motd?
        \_ The left has traditionally supported the downtrodden. The left
           supported Isreal until relatively recently. But this blowhard
           is not really even worth replying to.
2002/6/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:25176 Activity:insanely high
6/23    CNN finally admits bias in reporting and promises to not be such
        incredible fuckups in the future.
        <DEAD>library.northernlight.com/EC20020623270000029.html?cb=0&dx=1006&sc=0<DEAD>
        \_ When US bombed China's embassy a while back, I don't recall
           there was ANY coverage on the victims neither.  Join the club.
           \_ Yes there was.  I recall names, body count, professions, and a
              bit about their families.
        \_ Hmm, I don't see any pro-Isarel US media being pressured to correct
           its bias.
           \_ Name em.
                \_ ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS
                   \_ *laugh* They're all pro-Palestinian if anyone ever was.
                      Anyway, no one who wants real news goes there anyway.
                      That's bubblegum news for the masses.  Why do you watch?
                      \_ yeah they go to http://freerepublic.com instead!
                         \_ Yawn.  What a weak reply.  Total strawman.  There's
                            only one conservative on the motd lame enough to
                            use biased propaganda pseudo news like the free
                            republic web site as a source and I'm beginning
                            to think it's a lefty shill looking to create an
                            artificial strawman.  Get over it.
        \_ At the end of the article: "Jordan said the company was taking
           criticism from both sides, with Palestinian officials he met on
           Saturday accusing CNN of serving Israeli Prime Minister Ariel
           Sharon.  ``They believe that CNN is the propaganda arm of the
           the other way round.
           Sharon government,'' he said."
           \_ Palestinian whining is not at all the same as CNN admitting
              they fucked up.  The first is just a PR tactic.  The second is
              about CNN's guilt and correcting that misbehavior in the future.
              I can honestly claim CNN doesn't run enough stories about my
              daily events (zero so far! shocking!) but that doesn't mean CNN
              is biased against me since I'm not newsworthy, nor am I a savage
              terrorist murderer who targets school buses.
              \_ What's wrong with targetting school buses? The goal of
                 terrorism is terror after all. Get the fuck out of those
                 settlements.
                 \_ You mean the settlements in places like the capitol where
                    buses and cafes are targets?  Settlements my ass.  They
                    won't be happy until the jews resettle in Atlantis.
        \_ I thought the US media has always been accused of pro-Isarel, not
           the other side.
           \_ Spend less time listening to Berkeley-style "liberal"
              pseudointelligentsiya.
           \_ Uhm, no.  And as the above points out, accused by who exactly?
              SF/Berkeley is not the center of the country.
              \_ Arab countries, Europe, Japan, China. Pretty much the whole
                 world, except maybe India.
                 \_ Arabs countries? Uhm ok whatever.  European journalism is
                    extreme left wing and Europe is the home to anti-Semitism.
                    Japan is opposed to anything that might drag their economy
                    even further down.  It's easy to whine when someone else
                    is covering your ass.  And China is an enemy state which
                    is opposed to the US and her allies on general principle.
                    \_ and the principles are:  complete disregards of
                       international treaties of any sort, completely
                       disregards of sovereignty of other nation, for the
                       sole purpose of expand its economic interest and
                       overwhelmingly dominance over the world...
                        \_ This is what *all* countries do.  Next!
                       There was a time where Chinese were really look up
                       toward Americans (through out the 80s).  It's American
                       themselves start to treat China as an enemy after
                       TeinAnMen Square 13 yrs ago, after the collapse of
                       Soviet Union, as China become the only country
                       left has remote (and i mean REMOTE) chance to
                       chanllenge American's dominance over the world.
                        \_ You mean when the Chinese ran over peaceful
                           pro-democracy protestors with tanks?  With friends
                           like that I'd rather have enemies.
2002/6/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25160 Activity:very high
6/21    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/21/international/middleeast/21SUIC.html?pagewanted=2
        "The bottleneck on the Palestinian side is not the suicide attacker,"
        said a senior Israeli security official. "It's the bomb."
        \_ It will end only when Palestinian mothers love their children more
           than they hate the Israelis.
           \_ It seems to me that if Israel tried to make life better for
              the Palestinian's not as many would be willing to die in
              suicide attacks.  For example, if Israel built decent public
              schools, health care, etc. and took steps to make help
              Palestinians find decent jobs some of them might decide that
              rebuilding their country and moving forward is better than
              terrorism.  Then again, if one of my friends or family members
              was killed by a terrorist I might have a hard time taking
              such steps.
              \_ This is all UN controlled territory and the UN, EU, and others
                 pump many millions a month into the PA.  Where is all the
                 money going?  Not schools, jobs, or healthcare....  You're
                 looking to the wrong folks for these things.  Oh yeah, this
                 is also all supposed to be demilitarised land.  Why is the UN
                 sitting on it's ass while weapons pour into the area?  It'll
                 end when the Palestinians love their children.  As a side
                 note, this was all Jordanian territory untl 1967 and they ran
                 it even worse than the Israelis.  Why were mass Jordanian
                 executions ok but the Israelis are somehow supposed to be
                 lifting up the people who are specifically targetting their
                 children in a self-proclaimed "war of the buses"?
                 \_ because people have short memories.
                 \_ I'm not saying that what the Palestinians are doing is
                    good.  What they should be doing is massive non-violent
                    protests a la Gandi or MLK, but they aren't.  My point
                    was only that Palestinian parents won't start encouraging
                    their children to be peaceful unless they feel that
                    they can have happy, productive lives.  As long as life
                    sucks, their will be no shortage of martyrs.
                    \_ But Gandi and MLK both did it under severe adversity
                       and oppression. I don't understand why Palestinians
                       refuse to take the non-violent approach.
                       \_ Those activists that have tried non-violence
                          have been shot and beaten. They also tend to
                          get pushed aside for attention by the violent
                          types. In India, the independence movement had
                          both violent and non-violent elements and even
                          in the civil rights struggle, MLK was one of
                          the more moderate elements. Isreal is also far
                          more willing and able to use violence against the
                          Palestinians than Southern Sheriffs were against
                          King (sad but true). So, the short answer is,
                          many Palestinians have tried non-violence. The
                          longer answer is that non-violence is probably
                          only ever effective as one part of a multi-pronged
                          approach. Unfortunately, the Palestinians seem to
                          have lost sight of this as well, and are increasingly
                          dominated by the violent and desperate factions
                          such as Hamas, leaving the Isrealis with no one
                          reasonable to negotiate with.
                    \_ Wow. Both of your arguments are basically clearly
                       stated, respectful of others' points of view and
                       earn sympathy from the reader. Maybe the football games
                       have the normal crowd still asleep. In any case, I'm
                       afraid this thread is too decent for politics on the
                       motd. You're going to have to leave now.
                       \_ YOU ESS EH! YOU ESS EH! YOU ESS.. oh damn it...
                          \_ Try again in 2006.
                \_ Maybe the Palestinians wouldn't be so violent if their
                territority wasn't being littered with Israeli "Settlements"?
2002/6/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25140 Activity:nil
6/18    19 killed on bus filled with school children and office workers.
        Father of bomber tells Reuters he is "very proud".
        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20020618/wl_nm/mideast_blast_claim_dc_1
        And here's the mother of a different attacker giving her son a warm
        embrace and good wishes on his way out the door.  Local heroine now.
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2050000/2050414.stm
        This is not the way to accomplish anything but more death.
2002/6/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25136 Activity:nil
6/17    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,739466,00.html
        Ted Turner, brilliant intellectual thinker of the left, on Israeli
        terrorism.
2002/6/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25069 Activity:moderate
6/11    Bad news for everyone involved.  Not as bad as it might be and not as
        bad as other places in the world which are on the verge of nuking
        each other but still pretty bad.  This won't end well.
        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020611/wl_nm/mideast_palestinian_poll_dc_1&printer=1
        \_ "liberating all of historic Palestine" != Israel's Elimination
           \_ uhm, how do you figure that?  We're talking about the Israel &
              Palestine on Earth, not on Mars.
           \_ "Fifty-one percent of people surveyed said the end result of
               the uprising should be "liberating all of historic Palestine,"
               referring to British-mandate Palestine, part of which was
               recognized as Israel in 1948."  There isn't much Israel left
               if you roll back to pre-1948 borders, is there?
        \_ I like the "almost half of all respondents believed Palestinian
           President Yasser Arafat would win elections," rather than "More
           than half didn't think Arafat could win election."
           \_ Most polls are split into the equivalent of yes/no/not sure
              as three options, so if the split were 49/31/20, it would
              be appropriate to talk about the plurality as being almost
              a majority.
2002/5/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24919 Activity:high
5/22    http://jewishworldreview.com/kathleen/parker1.asp
        \_ Wow, that's bad column writing. Lots of terrible assumptions
           and plenty of overboard and irrational opinions.
           \_ Yeah, like "President Bush merely connected the dots"
              President Bush can hardly spell his name.  He has Condoleeza
              Rice do his crossword every morning.
              \_ Uhm, you're an idiot.  Try reading the article again.  I'll
                 give you a hint: it's a fictional piece about how it might
                 have gone differently.  That help?
                 \_ Um..  it's called a joke?  heard of it?
           \_ Name one thing that is a "terrible assumption." The scenario
              described sounds like a very plausible sequence of events
              if action were to have been taken last summer. -alexf
           \_ Uhm, ok, that's a nice attack I guess.  Perhaps you'd like to
              quote or refer to something instead of pissing on your shoes?
        \_ for the record, the author is listed as a 'pundit' - and also:
           as a Jew, I've never heard of this website and find it lame.
              of the 'jewishworldreview' and that it doesn't speak for all jews.
           \_ Where?
           \_ as a Jew?  Why should that matter?  Your editorial opinion gains
              some sort of special status because you're a Jew?  Get over it.
           \_ you get over it! I'm simply saying that I've never f--king heard
              of the 'jewishworldreview' and that it doesn't speak for all
              jews.
              \_ you never heard of it so it must be lame. and you're a jew.
                 and it doesn't speak for you.  uhm, sorry, but, uh, DUH! NO
                 SHIT!  I'm also a Jew but I hope we're not too closely
                 related.  I suspect you're from the missing 13th tribe that
                 went out for beers when the rest of us were trying to figure
                 out wtf was going on. you folks got lost on the way back and
                 ended up in berkeley, eh?
        \_ Great article... especially the part on the traitorous
           Rep. McKinney.
        \_ look.  provide evidence to a court in a timely manner, and it's
           not racial profiling.  This article is bullshit, but not for
           the reasons a lot of people are thinking.  It's knee-jerking against
           other knee-jerkers.  Everybody involved in this discussion needs to
           grow up.
           \_ It's not knee-jerk.  It's actually really accurate.  Even after
              9/11 when the feds started rounding up arabs, guess who started
              whining about racial profiling, racism, and etc?  Yup, that's
              right, just like the article said....  All the usual suspects.
              \_ Because racial profiling is illegal and wrong. The mass
                 roundup, secret trials, and being held in custody without
                 charges thing is ONLY accepted because of the terrorist
                 attack AND because the detainees are a minority. The writer
                 makes the illogical assumption that Bush would have done
                 the same things before September 11 the same as he did after
                 the attack only if he had more knowledge about it. Of course,
                 he wouldn't have gotten away with it!
                \_ Racial profiling, if not for an arbitrary reason, is
                   not wrong and shouldn't be illegal. A country has to
                   protect itself, and sometimes that means at the
                   slight expense of a certain racial group's comfort.
                   In a case like this, when a danger terrorist group
                   is known to be made up people of certain ethnic
                   descent, it could be a wise idea to do what this
                   article describes.
                   \_ How 'bout we try developing a decent intelligence agency
                      so we actually find INDIVIDUALS instead of GROUPS...  But
                      that's obviously far too expensive and time consuming. So
                      instead we'll go to war in a country that has nothing left
                      to bomb so we'll have some pretty pictures for the front
                      page, not to mention a paved path for a nice shiny oil
                      pipeline.
2002/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24781 Activity:very high
5/9     "Why Don't I Care About the Palestinians?"
        http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/680667/posts
        "The Closed Circle: An Interpretation of the Arabs"
        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/1566634407/customer-
reviews/ref=as_pt/103-2659247-3789407
        \_ hey free republic guy, that article was even dumber
           than the usual crap you link to in the motd, are
           you ok?  sign your name someday, we'll make you meatloaf
           and cheer you up. - danh
           \_ Defend your point.
              \_ Dan doesn't need to defend his point.  He's a leftist.  That
                 just makes him magically right when he says you're dumb.  I
                 read the article expecting some ridiculous freeper rant but
                 it actually makes sense.  The arab world has produced nothing
                 of value economically, culturally, or in any other way in a
                 few hundred years.  The palestinians have the double curse of
                 being under UN run 'camps' and being hated by their 'brother'
                 arabs for 50+ years who use them as a pawn against Israel.
                 But Dan says freeper = bad, thus it must be so.
                        \_ I dunno: I'd say we value the oil that
                           all the Arabs produce quite a bit.
                           \_ Uh the arabs didn't produce the oil in the sense
                              of doing anything.  They sit on it and europeans
                              and Americans come in and do everything and pay
                              them some money for access.  This is hardly a
                              huge cultural or economic achievement to be
                              proud of.  Anyway, their heyday is over.  Saudi
                              Arabia's infrastructure was never really built
                              up properly during their big time and now they're
                              fucked.  When the oil runs out or we switch to
                              other fuels over the next 30 years, then what?
                              Back to eating sand and reading the Koran and
                              hating those evil Americans and Europeans who
                              'epxloited' them.
           \_  do i get free food if i post a link to a dumb editorial
               also?  -!op
               \_ This is only worth a "see the above reply about Dan"
 \_ http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/161yaihr.asp
2002/5/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24707 Activity:nil
5/3     What is likely the final word on the Jenin massacre and other Israeli
        atrocities.  Makes it very clear the extent to which Israel is guilty
        of these horrendous crimes.
        http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/ck20020503.shtml
        \_ Yes, an op-ed piece at a site devoted to "conservative columnists"
           (including Oliver North) is definitely the "final word."
           \_ It's going down exactly like that.  You know why?  Because
              the way he says it is exactly the way it is.
        \_ I really liked the way he used the phrase "phantom menace"
2002/5/2-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24682 Activity:high
5/2     Cool.  Fake Palestinian funeral caught on tape in attempt to dupe the
        UN.
        http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=158947&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
        \_ it's HOLLYWOOD!!! The US Govnt contracts HOLLYWOOD and their fancy
           computer graphics. It's all conspiracy!!! Go Bin Laden.
        \_ Faking a funeral, how low can you get. That is way worse that
           slaughtering unarmed innocents.
           \_ Human Rights Watch (a group that has condemned israel on many
              issues) did an investigation and said that there is NO EVIDENCE
              FOR A MASACRE IN JENIN.  They report about 56 palestinians dead.
              Israel reported 54 a couple of days ago (45 gunmen and 7 tragic
              civilians [which perez was sorry about]).  Israel didn't want
              the UN because of their Eurocentric ideas and problems in the
              past with these UN groups making mistakes against Israel that
              they later had to retract (i.e. Lebanese fighters using UN
              uniforms to abduct Israeli soldiers -- all denied by the UN
              which later corrected itself do to videotape that they themselves
              shot!).
              \_ Who said anything about Jenin? Both sides kill civilians
                 all the time, this is a much bigger problem than some
                 fake funeral. Try to keep your sense of perspective.
        \_ They also caught them pulling bodies out of a cemetary and putting
           them in the rubble.  How can you believe anything these people tell
           you?  It's like purgery in our courts, it denies you the ability
           to be trusted in the future!
        \_ How come this is not reported by media in US which is pro-Isarel?
           \_ It was on FOX NEWS!  Watch the real news, not that CNN biased
              crap!
              \_ It's on http://cnn.com now too.
                 \_ Don't listen to Communist News Network. It is controlled
                    by the wealthy Palestinian World Government.
              \_ I see.  I missed that.
           \_ Where'd you get the idea US news is pro-Israel?  More like it
              isn't too far (Euro-style) into anti-Israel bias.
              \_ a troll at the end of a tired-out thread is not as likely
                 to be functional as a troll.  you've got to hit it
                 earlier.  no one even reads this far down in the
                 thread.
                 \_ Dumbshit just because you're blind to it doesn't make it
                    a troll.  Troll: most over used word by those with no
                    other points to make, usually used by the blindly
                    agenda driven.
2002/5/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24665 Activity:very high
5/1     "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH: It's Time to Cut Israel Loose"
        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=127&ncid=742&e=7&u=/020429/7/1gwi9.html
        \_ Works for me.
           \_ Yeah. We should cut them loose, so that they can finish the
              job. Without US restraint Israel would have "Nuke and Pave"'d
              the middle east long ago and the world would have been a much
              safer place.
        \_ israel is another welfare case.  I'm sick and tired of my hard
           earned tax dollars goign out of the country.  they can do whatever
           the hell they want as long as my tax dollars aren't involved.
           We don't owe them shit.
           \_ Ok, lets stop sending *any* money outside this country.  I'm
              all for that.  Are you?
        \_ quote: "Right-wing extremist Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) has
           unleashed a horrific onslaught upon Gaza and the West Bank that has
           left all but the most hardened pro-Israel hawks disgusted".  It's a
           good thing this is in the op/ed section because this certainly
           isn't true with in Israel itself.  Sharon leads a coalition
           government which includes the left wing party of Peres, etc.  I
           like op/ed pieces.  They don't confuse the issues with the facts.
           They just make stuff up to suit their agenda and stick by it.
           Facts are so annoying when you've got an axe to grind.  Next up an
           op/ed piece of Arafat the Peacemaker and why he should be the head
           of the UN Panel on Democracy and Peace.
        \_ "horrific onslaught"? compared to the jews being murdered by
           millions, some palestianian terrorists gets killed and that's an
           onslaught? hey, please hand me over your gfs and wives and let me
           fuck them since that's the right thing to do, if you don't you're a
           racist/facist/republican
           \_Which jews getting murdered by millions? Is settling the west bank
             somehow necessary to make up for the holocaust? Many more
             palestinian civilians than israelis have died in the current
             conflict.
             \_ If you die with a gun in your hand or a bomb in the trunk or
                explosives in your home you're not a civilian.
                \_ So I guess the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto uprising
                   are not civilians?
                   \_ No.  They didn't have 50 tons of Iranian weapons getting
                      shipped in and didn't have the EU and US sending hundreds
                      of millions of dollars a year to Arafat's Swiss bank
                      account.
                \_ Way to duck the issue while implying that all Palestinians
                   (or all who have died) are terrorists, which is, of course,
                   a blatant lie.
                   \_ You're putting words in my mouth.  I *never* said any
                      such thing.  Thanks.
        \_ Another good quote: "Sharon's excessive use of force is causing an
           increasing number of Americans to wonder whether it's time to cut
           off aid and let both sides slog it out."  Okey dokey, so by slog it
           out are you saying we'd just go isolationist and if the Israelis
           bombed everything flat and kicked the survivors over the borders
           of Egypt, Lebanon and Syria that would be ok with you?  Are you
           totally insane?  Or did you just not read your own URL?
2002/4/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24616 Activity:high
4/27    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Israel-Palestinians.html
        I'm sure the 5 year old girl was a big threat.
        \_ so does all these Palestinian pregnant women who were not allow to
           pass the check points to deliver the babies
           \_ You mean like the ones they caught with fake babies that were
              really bombs or the ones they stopped in ambulances that were
              being used to carry weapons and bombs contrary to all concepts
              of international law?
2002/4/25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24592 Activity:nil
4/25    Egypt wants $100b to attack Israel.  I'm not making this up.
        http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/04/24/1019441265555.html
        \_ there sure are a lot of landmines in the way, did
           they recently invent magic hovercraft?
        \_ Grade: D-
           Comments: Dropped from C- to D- for saying "I'm not making this
                     up."                       - troll grader
           \_ You're an idiot.  It's a serious topic when a country announces
              they'll attack another country presumably with the intent of
              completely destroying them and killing everyone if the price
              is right.  Or maybe you're a moron.  I'm undecided on that.
2002/4/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:24497 Activity:high
4/19    Please accept my apology for believing and posting to the motd
        everything I've posted for the last year or so.  After reading this
        link I now truly understand the way the world really is.
        http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles3/plot.html
        \_ Go stick your head in a pig.
           \_ You know "they" are coming for you.  From the same folks you
              can find out how the Israeli government at all levels is engaged
              directly in the white slave trade from the former soviet states.
        \_ You obviously have not spent enough time reading this guy. It is
           not the Isrealis, it the FreeMasons. No, its the Catholics. Wait
           not the Isrealis, it's the FreeMasons. No, it's the Catholics. Wait
           it's the Illuminatis. Maybe NATO is in on it, too.
           \_ I read it all.  It's all true!
2002/4/18 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24487 Activity:nil
4/18    Toursists don't read the news!
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1936000/1936241.stm
2002/4/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24484 Activity:nil
4/18    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,685169,00.html
        Israel is creating the terror infrustrature as we speak.
        \_ Uhm yeah.  Once again, be careful of your sources.  The Guardian
           will print anything.  Anything Left.  Anything Anti-Israel.
           Anything Anti-American.  It doesn't have to be true or even close
           to true.  The British have a much difference sense of what good
           journalism is than Americans.  We don't always do it right but
           many in this country at least try.
           \_ Is the Guardian mainstream newspaper or is it supermarket
              tabloid?
              \_ In Britain there isn't a difference.  That's the point.
                 There are some on the motd who rag on the washington post as
                 a moonie-paper and instantly dismiss anything from the wp.
                 I'd take the WP as The One True Word long before I accepted
                 *anything* from a British fish wrap like the Guardian.
              \_ The Guardian, The Telegraph and The Times are the three
                 most well respected English newspapers, on par with
                 The Times and The Post. The above poster is seriously
                 confused. He can't even bother to figure out the difference
                 between the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Either
                 that or he is deliberately trying to mislead you.
                 \_ Moonie this, Washington Whatever that.  Who cares?
                        \_ i think it's a big deal a fairly
                           major newspaper is owned by the fucking moonies.
                           why don't you?
                 \_ "well respected" by whom?  Read the damned article.  It
                    would be lucky to get a spot as an op/ed piece in any
                    semi-self-respecting American paper.
                    \_ http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,3932025,00.html
                       http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,3932086,00.html
                       \_ Christ oh mighty!  Where did you learn to not read?
                          These are British awards and Net awards to a British
                          rag.  It's like the Fox Committee awarding the fox
                          an award for Best Keeper of Chicken House.  Damn!
                          \_ You are right. The rest of the world is wrong.
                             End of argument. Do you have a similarly low
                             level of regard for the Pulitzer prizes?
                             \_ Like the ones where they give awards out for
                                stories based on lies?  Yes, I do.  Please try
                                to be more aware of your surroundings.  It's
                                intellectually safer that way.
                             \_ The pulitzer used to mean something, but
                                these days it yet another highly political
                                award, just like the Peace Prize.
                    \_ American papers suck (except for San Jose Mercury News)!
                       \_ I used to read the People's Daily World (later
                          renamed the People's Weekly World after the Soviets
                          fell).  Now that was *quality*.
                          \_ Seriously, everyone knows American papers suck.
                             Read Economist instead!
                             \_ No thanks.  The People's Yearly World is good
                                enough for me.
                      \_ Yeah. The merc's is the only one with a Fry's section!
2002/4/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24476 Activity:very high
4/17    must reads:
        http://www.ajds.org.au/intifada/mendes.htm
        http://www.ajds.org.au/mendes.htm
        I love this guy, we should all (including me sometimes) give this much
        thought and consideration to all sides in the middle east.
        \_ This guy sounds pretty biased to the palestinian side.  Just listen
           to the language he uses on scholars who take Israel's side.
           \_ yeah, I thought that too, but it is still getting better, try
              this, though I haven't finished it yet, soooo....
              http://www.ajds.org.au/intifada/morris_shlaim.htm
           \_ yeah, I thought that too, but it is still getting better
           \_ Example please? I think it's quite rational. At least it lays out
              the basic claims on each side pretty well, and I agree with the
              conclusion. Namely that a) Israel's settlements in wb&gaza and
              b) Palestinians' "right of return" claim are obstacles to peace.
              Those settlements are morally indefensible IMO. Actually I
              haven't even seen someone try to defend the idea. Any takers?
              But clearly giving refugees land back from Israel isn't feasible
              anymore.
              \_ "Arabs didn't tell Palestinians to leave.  Benny Morris says
                 so.  All these other people who disagree are just
                 'ill-informed historians and propagandists,' repeating the
                 same arguments ad infinitum."  Without looking more closely
                 into the issue, I ll take the side of many scholars who claim
                 X, over a single Benny Morris guy who claims not X.
              \_ One concept: Jews all over the Middle East got kicked out of
                 the various Arab countries, their property taken, etc, and
                 went to Israel to start again because they had no where else
                 to go.  They have no "right of return" to Syria, Tunisia,
                 Egypt, Iraq, Iran, or anywhere else.  Palestinians are
                 *specifically not* welcome in _any_ Arab country.  No one
                 wants them.  They're a convenient economic, political, public
                 relations and terrorist weapon against Israel.  The West Bank
                 was even worse off under Jordan's rule up to '67.  In the
                 late 70's, Jordan officially gave up all claim to the WB.
                 Egypt no longer claims Gaza.  Why is it the Jews will take in
                 other Jews who got forced from their homes but Arabs go out
                 of their way to *not* take in their so-called brothers?
                 Hint: *no one* wants the Palestinians.  Jordan, Egypt, and
                 Kuwait all forced hundreds of thousands off their land in
                 one way or another.  What's so damned special about the
                 Palestinians anyway?  There are plenty of other people who
                 have a *much* better claim to an independent state and we
                 *never* hear about them.  Kurds, Basque(sp?), Tibetans come
                 to mind.  How about you give up some land for the American
                 Indians?  You realise you live on tribal lands?  Either
                 you've gotta say "tough shit" and life sucks to all of these
                 people or you're a hypocrite by not believing in all of their
                 causes, especially Native American's.  Think about it.  I'll
                 touch on this Native American thing later.  You'll like it.
                 \_ What?!  Are you saying that it's ok for the Israelites to be
                    as *barbaric* as the Turks, Saddam Hussein and the *commie*
                    Chinese?!  Mighty fine company!
                    \_ And the Spanish and the US and many others. I'm saying
                       there's no difference and the *whole* world plays the
                       "might makes right" game.  The difference in the Middle
                       East is that playing nice = get wiped out.
                 \_ Yea, Jews take in other Jews by settling them on Palestinian
                    land.
                    \_ And Arabs make more land for themselves by killing and
                       kicking out Palestinians *and* Jews.  Chew on *that*.
                 \_ I like how neither of you talked about settlements.
                    One difference in this situation is that there just so
                    happens to be a chunk of land sitting there that is
                    rather perfect for creating a Palestinian state out of.
                    Well, if not for Israel deliberately building armed
                    camps all over the place. With Native Americans, yes
                    what the USA did was wrong. If you see someone doing
                    wrong, does Jewish religion say it's ok to copy them?
                    Or does it say to just not give a shit about non-Jews?
                    Go see the movie "The Bicycle Thief" btw. Also look at
                    East Timor, sometimes the UN actually kind of works.
                    Who says I don't believe in other people's causes?
                    But the US did its stuff 150 years ago. It's too late.
                    It's not too late in the case of Palestinians. And like
                    the other poster implied, do you want that Israel is
                    in the same moral category as those other regimes?
                    \_ How is it too late for the Native Americans?  Hello?!
                       There's still MILLIONS of them on reservations right
                       here in this country TODAY!  They're still being kicked
                       around and abused by our country RIGHT NOW!  Are you
                       saying because the abuse *started* a long time ago, that
                       it is somehow OK that we continue it today?  Sheesh.
                       Talk about settlements: ok, *you* currently live, work
                       and play on Native American land.  When you're ready
                       to abide by the zillion and one treaties your government
                       broke to your direct benefit today then you'll be in a
                       non-hypocritical position to discuss other's faults.
2002/4/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24463 Activity:insanely high
4/17    Is it possible for a politician or journalist to say that he/she is
        against foreign aid to Israel without being called a Nazi?  That
        money is starting to seem like an entitlement, like welfare or
        social security.
        \_ no one seems to have mentioned the USS Liberty yet, so
           i'll just mention it now.  consider it mentioned.
        \_ not possible. We have too many rich politicians who are jews,
           hail to democracy.
           \_ yeah fuck those jews for participating!
        \_ Is that a question?
        \_ Honestly, now I can understand what were all these anti-Jewish
           sentimentalism were all about before WW2.  Jewish is an invisible
           minorities in the society that dictates our nation's foreign
           policy.  Because of them, US is the only Israel's ally in this
           conflict, totally disregards UN resolutions and other international
           law.
           US can EASILY control Israel's behavior by just stop the flow
           of our AIDs, or even call upon temporary economic sanction until
           Israel pull out of Westbanks (both troops and settlement).  But
           instead, we just demand cease fire.  Every cease fire in the past
           only yields more and more of settlement, and you blame Palestinian
           for not giving up their only card on their hand?
           We have been unconditionally support of Israel since 1948.
           This put US in a very bad position in terms of being a mediator
                                                   aid.

           I honstly think that Powell's trip was just a show to American
           people that Bush is trying to do something.
           \_ Yes!  The Zionist Conspiracy folks have arrived!  Sweet! *Now*
              you have seen the real Nazis hit the motd.  Glad you could show.
           \_ Tell us about ZOG and what you learned from reading Meinkampf.
        \_ Not if you are Pat Buchanan.  We give more to Egypt BTW.
                                         \_ Not true. Military + econ = 3B/yr
                                            Aid to Egypt is only 2B/yr.
                                            \_ Even the new east span of the
                                               Bay Bridge costs more than that.
                                               And that's not even a whole
                                               bridge.
                                                \- who dont you compute the
                                                per capita aid to israel.
                                                [meaning per israeli person]
                                                \_ Assuming Israel has 4
                                                   million people, it would be
                                                   $750 per year per person.
                                                   For US, it would be $10 per
                                                   year per person.  Not much,
                                                   but that's just the official
                                                   aid.  I read that US gives
                 isn't a special case.  We're supporting the world.
                                                   a lot of weapons to Israel
                                                   for free, not to mention
                                                   technological transfers, etc.
                                                   3 billion per year is equal
                                                   to 8.2 million per day.
                                                   That's just like 40 nice
                                                   little houses every day.
                                                   \_ Tech: actually they take
                                                      our planes, improve them
                                                      and tell us how to do it.
                                                      \_ Nah, that's more true
                                                         of armor than
                                                         aircraft.
                                                         \_ F15. Look it up.
                                                      \_ Yes, they do that a
                                                         little, but mostly
                                                         it goes the other
                                                         way.
                                                         \_ How much tech or
                                                            other quality
                                                            work do we get from
                                                            the arabs?  How
                                                            about intelligence?
                                                            Obviously not
                                                            getting enough int.
                                                            help.  9/11.
                                                            \_
                                                Arabs have oil, and that's
                                                what we need.  Our aid to
                                                Israel is supposed to help
                                                them defend themselves and
                                                help us maintain a military
                                                presense in the oil-rich
                                                region.  Our aid is not for
                                                the Israelites to behave
                                                like assholes and bullies.
                                                \_ You suggest we send ovens
                                                   instead of weapons?  Wake
                                                   up.  No matter what the
                                                   Israelis do, the Arabs want
                                                   them dead. 1948, 1967, 1973,
                                                   etc.  Once the oil runs out
                                                   or we switch to something
                                                   else, the arabs are going
                                                   back to sand and camels
                                                   while Israel will continue
                                                   on as a first world
                                                   democracy.  While you're
                                                   reading up on 48,67,73, you
                                                   should look up how many
                                                   Arabs killed other Arabs in
                                                   the last 50+ years and also
                                                   see what Jordan did to them
                                                   up to 67.  Ignorance is
                                                   bliss, eh?
                                                   \_ No, I suggest we stop
                                                      aid to Israel to show
                                                      them who's the boss.
                                                      Israel won't fall to
                                                      Arabs anytime soon.  In
                                                      fact it can kick their
                                                      ass easily.  In fact,
                                                      it can even kick our ass
                                                      for a while (see above
                                                      about F-15).  I think
                                                      they should listen to
                                                      us instead of being
                                                      bullies and assholes.
                                            \- as far as i know aid to israel
                                            has always exceeded aid to egypt
                                            after camp david and assume before
                                            as well. i believe aid to both was
                                            reduced not long ago, so it is
                                            possible the philippines gets more
                                            aid but they certainly have more
                                            reason to feel the US "owes" them.
        \_ Unless that jewish student who protested at Sproul on the
           Palestinan side against Isarel becomes a politician.  I saw him on
           TV.
        \_ *GREAT* troll!  You of course completely dismiss the money we give
           to Egypt and the fact that they both get money going back to the
           Camp David accords in the late 70's which brought official peace
           between the two countries.  You earn a cookie and *2* points!
           \_ There, you have your answer. You might be called a "troll"
              instead of a "Nazi," but obviously Isreal is entitled to
              US foreign aid (which they have been getting for a lot
              longer than since Camp David).
              \_ They're entitled to it by treaty.  It is in the interests
                 of the US to assist any Western nation as well and thus we
                 give various forms of aid going back to before our entry in
                 WWII to Europe, post-WWII Japan, SKorea, and others.  Israel
                 isn't a special case.  We're supporting the world.  The amount
                 going to Israel is peanuts.
                 \- per capita aid to israel stands way way way out.
                 the fact that americans spend more on frozen pizza and
                 lipstick is another matter. --psb
                    \_ Per capita isn't meaningful because this isn't about
                       buying Israeli citizens pizza and lipstick.  It's about
                       tanks and jets.  No matter how many people you have you
                       still need a certain amount of hardware to defend a
                       certain land area when your enemies surround you, have
                       sworn to kill all of you, and out number you a few
                       hundred million to 6 million.  Anyway, all this math
                       is hard.  Let's go shopping!
                       \_ The US has spent over $20,000 per Isreali citizen
                          with nothing but headache to show for it. What is
                          this, the Eighth Crusade? Why does what it got
                          spent on matter?
                          \_ You're right.  It would be cheaper to buy ovens
                             and ship them to their neighbors.  Good idea.
                             \- wouldnt it be cheaper to save somalis?
                                \_ well, considering that a 9mm bullet only
                                   costs a few tenths of a cent to mass
                                   produce, then yes.  It's far cheaper to
                                   save somalis.
                                \_ Save Somalis from what?  Themselves?  What
                                   for?
        \_ Hmm, 4 out of 5 head scientists who gave us nukes were Jewish,
           maybe we are just repaying them . . . ya think?
           But seriously, we are supporting the only Jewish state (yes, only
           one, can you count how many muslim and christian states there are)
           and a western democracy at that.  PS:  Did you know that the first
           Intel plant able to make the Pentium IV was in Israel?  It seems
           they were the only one who could print such a detailed chip.
           Furthermore, have you noticed how many times the enemies of Israel
           have lied in their estimates?  I say shame on us for believing such
           crap and shame on CNN/NYT for only getting one source in many
           cases.  PPS:  Shame on France, what is this, the return of the
           Vichy government?  They are only looking to support their weapons
           sales and their need for oil (we actually can support ourself in
           that regard) . . .  Oh and do read up on who started attacking who,
           and also why all the Palestinians voluntarily left their homes,
           they were never kicked out!  Meanwhile plenty of jews were kicked
           out of Iran, Iraq, Eqypt, and so forth (not to mention Poland,
           Germany, Spain, Italy, etc).  If you prick us, do we not bleed?
         \_ http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/palestine/refugeeFacts.html
            http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpalnew/glossarycollapsible.htm
            \_ yes, I can find one-sided accounts as well, but many
               Palestinians fled their homes so that the arab countries could
               fulfill their promise of pushing israel into the sea and
               returning palestine to them.  The Palestinians have been
               treated like shit by Jordan and Syria as well, why don't any
               UN resolutions talk about that?  Hmmm, I wonder, is it because
               France, Russia, China (all have treated [or help others treat]
               jews like scum) sit on the security council.  Also what about
               the right for jews to return to their homes.  FUCK, I WANT MY
               LAND BACK IN BARCELONA!!  My family chose to flee during the
               inquisition instead of the convert or die options they gave us.
               Also, are you ready to give your home back to that Mexican
               family our government kicked out so many years ago--I didn't
               think so!
               \_ I see. So since it happened to the Jews, it's ok for Jews to
                  do it to Palestinians? Well at least you admit it.
                  \_ Thanks for putting words in my mouth.  Here is a great
                     treatment of the refugee problem (though he throws "in my
                     opinion" around to much.  Ultimately (if you are lazy) he
                     attributes the problem to both sides:
                     http://www.ajds.org.au/mendes.htm
                     Another thought, Israel is 20% Arab and they have Arab
                     leaders in the Knesset, some of which have called votes
                     to end the existance of Israel . . . now that's democracy.
                     If Israel was really trying to "cleanse" themselves of
                     Arabs, why is 1/5th of their population arab?
2002/4/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24441 Activity:high
4/14    A teach-in
        Israel^s Real History: Palestinian Dispossession and Resistance
          It is called a land without a people for a people without a land,
        but the founding myths of Israel are no comfort to those of us
        who have been watching the last twenty days of Israeli brutality
        against the Palestinian people. But rather than representing an
        aberration in Israeli policy, the massacres in Jenin and Nablus
        are merely a continuation of Israeli policies already in place ^
        dispossession, settlement, discrimination, and expansion.  The
        legacy of the state of Israel is not democracy but a series of
        massacres of Palestinians ^ Deir Yassin, Qibya, Sabra, Shatila,
        and now Jenin.  Come to a teach-in about the real history of
        Israel and find out why Palestinians have been resisting Israeli
        occupation of Palestinian lands for over 54 years.  Featuring
        Elias Rishmawi of the American Arab Anti-Discrimination
        committee.
        Wednesday, April 17th 6PM 100 Wheeler Hall
        \_ cool.
           \_ history teaches us one thing : might makes right. get over it.
        \_ Okay.  I haven't gotten involved on the various Israel/Palestine
           trolling on the motd, but dude, the above is ridiculous.  Granted,
           Israel's behavior with regard to Palestine isn't particularly
           saintly, and, at times, is downright deplorable.  Then again,
           given that the widely held Palestinian view is that Israel has
           no right to exist and should be destroyed, it's a little absurd
           for Palestinian supporters to point at Israel and scream "You
           bastards!"  Furthermore, this seems to gloss over the fact that
           Israel acquired the West Bank as a result of the Seven Days
           (sometimes chronicaled as Six Days) War.  In case you don't
           actually read about history, that's when Egypt mounted a surprise
           attack on Israel, because, in the words of Radio Cairo,
           "The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the
            Israeli aggression we welcome the battle we have long awaited.
            The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall
            destroy Israel."
           Nevermind that Israel has repeatedly tried to return both the West
           Bank and the Gaza Strip, but every time that it has done so, it has
           been met with ridiculous demands and no concrete promises of
           security.
           So trolls go ahead.  Continue playing the game of 'my side of the
           conflict is more subjugated'.  Watch as the hordes of Berkeley
           faux-intellectual wankers get whiplash as their heads ping-pong
           back and forth in a futile attempt to decide which group is more
           oppressed. -dans
        \_ Sounds like a even-handed scholarly view. ;-p  (not)
2002/4/3-4 [Consumer/Camera, Recreation/Humor, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24297 Activity:moderate
4/2     is there any http://adcritic.com-like site around these days?
        \_ It's coming back soon; it got some sponsor
        \_ ifilm is kind of like it, not as good, but some of the same stuff
        \_ If you're looking for funny shorts, check out
                http://www.thelonelyisland.com
           I find it hilarious... but maybe just because this guy is a
           friend of mine.              - rory
           \_ NYC jewish rappers (Beastie Boys) >> LA jewish rappers.
              \_ I think the key difference is that Beastie Boys are
                 for real and these guys are basically a joke
              \_ I think the real difference is between othodox and reform jews.
2002/4/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24294 Activity:very high
4/1     Kissinger on the middle east:
        http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/EdDesk.nsf/All/97F35199827B2FF5CA256B8800031382
        \_ As Microsoft has decided their content is too '1337 for me as a
           lowly Netscape user, it must not be worth reading.
           \_ ? It's just some javascript.  There's nothing funny in there.
             \_ written by a trained MS monkey.
                \_ Son, unlike you, I read the html/javascript and there's
                   nothing complicated going on in there.  Are you using
                   NS 0.86alpha or what?  NS is bad but it isn't *that* bad.
                   Or I could tell you what the Linux bigots say in response
                   to every Windows query, "get a real os and a real browser!"
                   \_ i see only freebsd bigots here.
2002/3/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24061 Activity:moderate
3/7     Racial profiling in Israel.  Brutal oppression continues....
        http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/07/LatestNews/LatestNews.44770.html
        \_ Quit trolling.  Racial profiling in Israel is real,  this is
           not one of those instances however.
           \_ They tackled some dude and dragged him out because he was
              a) sweating, b) wouldn't answer the waiter's questions and
              most importantly c) was Palestinian.  Think about it.  No troll.
              \_ Did you read the article?  According to the article, it seems
                 like he actually had a bomb.  I must admit though,  it's very
                 hard to tell since the writing is so poor.  Did they
                 find a bomb, or did they just blow up a suitcase?
                 \_ Did they rough up anyone else or just this one guy for
                    looking nervous and being caught in a cafe being from the
                    wrong part of the gene pool?
2002/1/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23613 Activity:nil
1/19    http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/01/20/LatestNews/LatestNews.41961.html
        Arafat considering resignation or just Israeli propaganda?  PLA is
        liquidating assets to stuff in private Swiss bank accounts?
2002/1/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23603 Activity:high
1/18    israelis have aarested aarafat.
        \_ Look, cmlee, if you want people to actually listen to what you
           have to say, you're going to have to (1) sign your posts and
           (2) give your source for information.
           \_ I think (1) would make it less likely people would listen to him.
                -tom
        \_ Source?  (Even though I know this is just another
           dumbass troll ...)
        \_ They have moved a bunch of tanks to within 30 meters of his HQ
           and encircled it.  In a very technical sense you could claim he
           was being held under house arrest, I guess, sort of, but they
           have not "aarested aarafat".
                \_ put him under hq arrest?
        \_ http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-israel.story?coll=chi%2Dnews%2Dhed
2002/1/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23597 Activity:nil
1/17    Jewish mob beat and kill yet another Palestinian man then destroy
        Palestinian government building.  Your tax dollars at work supporting
        Jewish terror in the Middle East.
        http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-me/2002/jan/17/011701595.html
        \_  I wish the Arabs / muslims had some balls and attacked Isreal.
            That way Isreal would simply nuke them all, and
            effectively remove them from the gene pool.  The human
            race would be better off.
2001/12/28 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23390 Activity:high 75%like:23392
12/27
"So what ties us together? We're tied together by our belief in
political democracy. We're tied together by our belief in religious
freedom. We're tied together by our belief in capitalism, a free
economy where people make their own choices about the spending of
their money. We're tied together because we respect human life. We're
tied together because we respect the rule of law. Those are the group
of ideas that make us Americans."

''12/28 Europe / Arabia vs. Isreal / U.S.
        ...from the Spectator, a read so awesome, I wet my pants:
        http://freerepublic.com/focus/fr/597547/posts
        \_ The kind of crap that sodans read is scary. And even scarier is
        that they read it on a regular basis.
          \_ Agreed - at least as concerns the nutty freerepublic guy.
                \_ reiffin
        \_ When are you going to learn to format properly? Let me guess,
           this is from George "What election law?" Bush.
2001/12/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23380 Activity:nil
12/26   A history of Palestine, for all the Palestinian acolytes:
        http://freerepublic.com/focus/fr/597264/posts
        \_ You know, I was thinking.  I think what Israelis should do is
           borrow a chunk of land in the middle of Nevada and ... leave.
           And take all their stuff with them.  After the Palestinians
           kill each other off, starve to death, or move somewhere else
           where there are jobs to be had, the Israelis can move back to
           their land.
           \_ An offer like this was made just before the creation of Israel,
              but the wouldbe Israelis turned it down.
                \_ Gosh, I wonder why.
2001/12/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23302 Activity:high
12/19   It's official.  There are no Palestinian civilians anymore.  They're
        all military including the children.  From the horse's mouth:
        http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_6.html
        \_ Is that a hoax?
           \_ Not that I know of.  Why should it surprise you that Arafat
              says one thing in English for his American audience and a
              completely different thing to his people on local media?  It
              is exactly what it says it is as far as I know.
              \_ I see.  I was just surprised that I didn't see it in Reuters
                 or other American media.
                 \_ Not to be Mr. Conspiracy Theorist, but maybe now is a good
                    time to seriously consider all those charges of media
                    bias, eh?
        \_ are you sure?  does the world tribune tap into some
           secret news source no one else knows about?  the other
           articles on this site are pretty goofy
           \_ goofy?  The other headline stories right now are:
                -Pro-China Japanese diplomat reported to have spy mistress
                -Rice offers Israel expanded missiles defense cooperation
                -Vulnerability of Russian airspace worries U.S.
                -Israel charges EU aid going directly to Arafat
                -Iran's Rafsanjani suggest nuclear attack on Israel
              What's goofy?  Spy mistresses are an old story going back to
              the beginning of time and the other 4 look legit given current
              world events.  It's all pretty standard stuff.
2001/12/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23291 Activity:very high
12/17   more left wing propaganda!
        http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011224&c=1&s=friedman - danh
        \_ This is a lie.  It's all a lie.  It says he was the 7th generation
           of his family in Jerusalem and he was born in 1926 but we know there
           weren't any jews there until around 1947 when the UN and Britain
           said it was ok to kick out the Palestinians from their ancient
           homeland.  This is all right wing trash raising up a butcher and
           a racist like some sort of holy man.  I'm shocked you would post
           this danh.  I thought you were a good person.
           \_ right-wing israeli ~ left-wing american
                \_ whatever.  its right wing trash.
           \_ actually I was being sarcastic.  I don't think it's left
              wing or right wing, but the article is pretty sympathetic
              to the palestinians.  this is another in article
              in a long series of recent articles about how miserable
              the living conditions for the palestinians are,
              and no one, israeli or palestinian, thinks a good
              solution will happen anytime soon.  i also thought
              the "7th generation israeli" part didn't make
                \_ whatever.  its right wing trash.
              any sense. - danh
                   \_ You discredit yourself when you say stupid stuff
                      like that. Jews were living in Palestine for many
                      years before the creation of Isreal so it is
                      entirely possible. It says he is a 7th generation
                      Jerusalemite, not Isrealite.
                        \_ Bullshit.  There weren't more than a thousand or
                           so jews here and there wandering around doing
                           nothing important.  This is ancient Palestinian
                           land.  Always has been.  Always will be.  Who said
                           jews ever were there before 1947 anyway?  Some old
                           jewish stories and some scraps of paper in a cave?
                           *Read* this thing.  It makes it quite clear who
                           the good and the bad people are in the area.  Let
                           me spell it out for you. Palestinian = good.
                           Jew = bad.  7th generation my ass.
                                \_ Oh right, and I suppose the Romans
                                   conquered I dunno, maybe five or so Jews
                                   to take Jerusalem.  Mohammad never
                                   even visited present day Isreal.
                           \_ You are obviously saying the opposite of what
                              you believe, in order to discredit the article.
                              Anyway, we have to remember that the biological
                              difference btw middle eastern Jews and
                              Palestinians is almost nil, the latter having
                              converted to Islam centuries ago.  Their
                              mortal struggle is a brutal family quarrel.
                                \_ Both are sons of Abraham, except muslims
                                   are descendants of a handmaid.
2001/12/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23241 Activity:nil
12/13   ``This guy was in deep with the government'' and not a
        legitimate member of JDL. ``No member would ever turn
        on a fellow Jew,'' Krugel said.
2001/12/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23229 Activity:very high
12/12   Israel officially declares Arafat/PLA/PLO persona non grata.  Cuts
        off all talks, ties, meetings, etc.  48,67,73 are in the history books.
        Welcome to the start of the War of '01.  I suspect the other Arab
        nations won't be sending in troops this time though.  I wonder if this
        will turn into a mass expulsion from the west bank and gaza.  Various
        URLs are out there on several news services.  Take your pick.
        \_ Not to contradict this, but the U.S. won't allow any serious
           encroachment by the Israelis.  Whether this is good or bad,
           I don't know, but I'm just saying that nothing has changed.
                \_ "US won't allow"?  And how would we forbid it?
                    \_ By cutting off the $4B/year in aid we give Isreal.
                \_ Even if the US was in a position to "not allow" who says
                   the US wouldn't?  Have you read a newspaper in the last 2
                   weeks.  The US is "allowing" all sorts of things and in
                   fact has been quite encouraging through a mix of positive
                   statements and silence where normally the US would urge
                   restraint.  Wake up.  Arafat is over.  The PLA is over.
                   The PLO is over.  Put any thoughts of peace on hold until
                   someone steps up to take Arafat's place and is serious
                   about it.  Given how powerful Hamas has become this could
                   take a loooong time.  Anyway, Arafat is 71, has parkinson's
                   and looks like a corpse.  He wasn't long for the world
                   anyway.
                   \_ The U.S. is exerting its influence right now.
                      The attacks by Israel aren't a massive, dismantle
                      the PLO type attack.  It's a, "We'll blow up the
                      media facilities, surround all the towns, and then
                      stick our thumbs in our asses because we don't know
                      what to do next."  Like I said, nothing has changed.
                        \_ Nothing has changed?  Uh, ok, whatever.  Keep
                           reading the paper.  The Israelis have been getting
                           more and more active every day without any real
                           comment by the US.  "massive, dismantle the PLO
                           type attack"s dont happen over night.  It isn't
                           video game.
                           a video game.
        \_ Those damned semitic people again. The US needs to cut off all
           relations with all semitic people, Arabs, Jews, whatever. They're
           all nuts.
           \_ troll you very much.
           \_ c'mon, this isn't even a troll.  it's a mockery of trolldom.
              do we need a basic FAQ or How-To for wannabe trolls?
2001/12/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23227 Activity:nil
12/12   Jewish terrorist arrested in LA. Let's see how much press this gets:
        http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011212/ts/crime_jdl_dc_1.html
        \_ Cool!  This is one right step to show, or at least to pretend, that
           we are not biased in that issue.  I hope the press in the Islamic
           world will cover this.  -- Asian
        <troll>
        \_ Just another example of Anti-Israeli propoganda.
           \_ Just another example of Anti-Palestinian propoganda.
              \_ both just more examples of hate propoganda. Everyone
                 should meditate, breathe with their diaphragms and love.
        </troll>
2001/12/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23220 Activity:moderate
12/10   http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-121101noexit.story
        An article on the psychology of Sharon & Arafat

[One of the more interesting and educational discussion on motd restored.
 Let it stay for a few more days.]  No. Let it go.  It's done.
2001/12/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23205 Activity:very high
12/9    How come the media likes to talk about 1-2 dead Israelis but rarely
        talks about thousands of Palistinians killed by Israelis gunship?
        Are Palistianian lives less worthy than Israelis?       -conscious jew
        \_ Who has more influence in the US media? Jews or Palistinians?
        \_ Who has more influence in the US media? Jews or Palestinians?
                \_ Ultra Leftists.
                \_ That woman, Ms. Lewinsky.
                   \_ Ah ha!  Exactly!  Jew Temptress ruins career of
                      pro-Palestinian President with aid from Jew controlled
                      anti-Palestinian right wing media!
        \_ Yes.
        \_ When the oppressed side has suicide bombers who say things like
           death to all the jews and explode themselves in public places,
           the press tends to take the oppressors side.  If the Palestinian
           people started to use non-violent means of protest, we might
           see something different.
           On a different note, I think the Israel-Palestine situation is
           all about provoking the other side into doing something that
           plays especially badly in the press, and claiming victimhood
           while you're fucking the other side back.
           \_ The Palestinians were at one point much less violent, at
              least for a people who had their homeland stolen.  But they
              got no attention (positive or negative) until they carried
              out some gruesome acts of terrorism.  Israel's PR system is
              enough to give any Redmond spin doctor a woody.  Once they
              had the ear of the international community, the Palestinians
              tried peace, but Israel continuously baited them.
              \_ The Palestinians tried peace?  Are you intentionally ignorant?
                 1999.  Arafat walked away from 99% of everything he had been
                 asking for.  They gave him everything.  He refused to talk
                 further and then called for more intifada.
                 \_ How much of the Right of Return was offered?
                    0% you mean, not 99%. This is a right guaranteed
                    by the UN and all signatories to the Geneva Convention.
                    \_ Israel offered 20k.  Arafat wanted 400k.  There was no
                       further discussion since Arafat fled the talks without
                       counter offering.  Sorry for providing facts that don't
                       match your opinions.
                       \_ 20k != 90% 400k.
                          IF he offered 99%, he might as well have gone 100%...
                          \_ There were many other things offered and on the
                             table than any right of return.  You're not being
                             honest if you look at one thing which Arafat
                             didn't even *try* to talk about and say it's all
                             Israel's fault when he got just about everything
                             he was asking for on every other topic.  If you're
                             going to be intentionally intellectually dishonest
                             then we can stop right now, you can get the last
                             post and walk away thinking you're really smart.
                             \_ I'm not blaming Israel. I'm just saying that
                                99% is utter bullshit, but the 20k/400k analogy
                                is much more accurate.
                          \_ And another thing: The West Bank belonged to
                             Jordan.  It's Jordanian land if not Israel's.  If
                             you think it should be "returned" to anyone, it
                             should be "returned" to Jordan, a Palestinian
                             country, not Arafat, a Palestinian terrorist.
              \_ All this tells me is that the Palestinians must TRAIN HARDER.
                 It is not an understatement to say that with each day that
                 Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al. continue to exist as they are,
                 the Palestinian people will suffer just much more for it.
              \_ You know I'm not big on Isreal BUT you have a pretty
                 revisionist version of history there.
        \_ read this article without getting mad:
           http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1 - danh
           \_ The Palestinians better stop the suicide bombing, yes?
           \_ It makes me mad that people with such obvious prejudice and
              bias can be published in major papers (although the NYT is known
              to be heavily biased) and get taken seriously by anyone as a
              reporter.  Once again all the Arabs have names and faces and are
              real people and the Israelis are the Evil Faceless Hordes.
              This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about earlier
              concerning media bias against Israel and in favor of terrorist
              suicide bombers.  Yes, it makes me mad.
        \_ i guess this proves soda is very diverse.  I read an awful lot
           of print media, and i would say in the articles I read
           (I don't confine myself to reading left wing hippie rags either)
           the palestinians are faceless, and the israelis are portrayed
           in a more favorable light.  yes no one is blameless, but i think
           the article is pretty good at depicting the palestinians as living
           in completely miserable economic conditions.  feel free to
           refute! - danh
        \_ How come we always hear from the families of the suicide bombers
           but never from the families of the real victims?  Are Jewish victims
           worth less than Muslim terrorists?
           \_ I don't hear anything about families of suicide bombers.
              Much more common is Palestinian police/kids getting whacked.
                \_ You don't?  I read several papers every day.  Most of the
                   suicide bombings have names and interviews with the bomber's
                   family but the victims are just body count.  What exactly
                   are you reading that you're unaware of this?
                   \_ nytimeslatimescnnwashingtonpostjpostmsnbc
                      okay, I should qualify what I said before to
                      "I hear 2x-3x more about the kids/policeman getting
                       whacked than the suicide bombers families."
                        \_ Then you're reading but not comprehending.  All of
                           these sources do exactly as I said.  In the future
                           (god, there's a sick thought) after a suicide
                           bombing in Israel see how many victim names you
                           get vs. the bomber and his family and see who gets
                   most extreme version of distorsion and pure hatred.
                           interviewed, if anyone.  Keep track.
                           \_ They talk about the Jewish families in http://jpost.com
                              naturally.  As for the U.S. outlets, they
                              don't usually, I admit, and say stuff like
                              "young people out for a good time got blown up."
                \_ There is a tendency to accuse anyone with the slightest
                   concern for Isreali action of bias and prejudice, while
                   editors like William Safire of the NYT get away with the
                   most extreme version of distortion and pure hatred.
                   That the gaza diary is posed on http://harpers.org online rather
                   than in NYT on paper is a good example.  Recently for
                   various reasons there is a bit more coverage for the
                   Palestinian plight but I suspect it will be shortlived.
                   I have been reading the NYT for many years and they almost
                   always report suide bombing of Isreal as a profound
                   tragedy, while only occasionally make passing mention of
                   the brutal oppression the people under the occupation has
                   to endure.  Whenever they do, my Isreali friend will cry
                   "bias bias," and some other will cry "anti-semitic."  Deep
                   in their heart they know there is something seriously
                   wrong, something contradictory to all the good liberal
                   and often socialist education fed to them by the Ashkenazi
                   labor government.  But when their conscience conflicts and
                   challenges their country's very legitemacy of existence
                   and the morality of their daily life, they enter into
                   vehement and violent denial, just like almost anyone else
                   would.  The Gaza diary link was posted before but removed
                   And yes, the Palestinians are brutal and stupid with all the
                   suicide bomging.  If someone even tries to run Americans
                   out of their American dream homes, we will be sure to drop
                   tons of cluster, oxygen depleting, bunker busting bombs
                   on them.  The Isreali and the Palestinians are far more
                   alike, both genetically and mentally, then they both like
                   to admit.  Many researches show that most Palestinians are
                   not Arabs but Jews who adopted Islam.  I believe if their
                   positions are switched they will behave exactly the same.
                   \_ The day I see Hamas/Islamic Jihad/PFLP renounce
                        Israeli armies in the earlier wars and laugh at that.
                        Israelis believe in strength, as exemplified by Sharon.
                        The Palestinians just cannot impress them with the
                        inefficient and ineffective method of suicide bombing
                        and a kill ratio that tilts heavily against themselves.
                      terrorist acts or rendered ineffective by Israeli,
                      international, or Palestinian deeds, is the day
                      I start feeling sympathy for the Palestinian cause.
                      Until then, Israel in my book can assassinate leaders
                      of these organizations and continue acting oppressive.
                      - I don't necessarily believe what I just wrote, but I
                        sure bet a lot of Israelis do.
                      \_  How much will that sympathy help them?  Isrealis
                        think the Palestinains fled in the face of advancing
                        Israeli army in the earlier wars without a good fight
                        and they laugh at that.  Israelis believe in strength,
                        as exemplified by Sharon. The Palestinians just cannot
                        impress them with the inefficient and ineffective
                        method of suicide bombing and a kill ratio that tilts
                        heavily against themselves.
                        \_ My friend, sympathy is the key.  The world turning
                           a blind eye to the Palestinian cause is because
                           of the wasting away of a sympathy.
                           \_ I am far more pessimistic.  I think the
                              Palestinian cause is a lost one.  Even if the
                              world does not turn a blind eye, so what?
                              The strong one wins.
                              \_ What about South Africa?  What about
                                 Ireland?
                                \_ In South Africa the white is such an
                                   isolated minority that unless their black
                                   killing virus had worked, they would always
                                   be demographically weak.  And no U.S.
                                   government will saction Isreal.  As for
                                   Ireland, I don't see it as a total victory
                                   for IRA, whose cause is not worth much
                                   sympathy regardless of the violence or not.
                                   But they have proven such a headache for
                                   GB that the latter had to make some
                                   concession.  This is an exemple in which
                                   terrorism actually worked, to some extent
                                   at least.  By the way, the biggest backers
                                   of the IRA is the Irish catholic community
                                   in the U.S.
        \_ You know, there has to be something wrong when the military wing
           of Fatah is named "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade"
        \_ Easy enough to understand: when a Jewish settler kills a
           Palestinian it is "self-defence," when a Palestinian does the
           same it is "terror." When the Mossad assasinates a Palestinian
           leader it is "justice," when Hamas assasinates an Isreali leader
           it is "terror." When Ireali rockets blow up Palestinian homes
           and civlians: "justice." Palestinian suicide bombers: "terror."
           Any further questions?
           \_ Yes.  Where'd you get this shit?  When a settler kills a
              palestinian, they pick up his ass for murder charges.  When the
              Israeli army kills a known palestinian bombing planner, it is
              self-defense.  When Hamas murders an Israeli leader (who had
              resigned, btw), it is murder.  When Israeli rockets blow up the
              buildings from which mortars are fired into Israeli civilian
              areas it is self-defense.  Palestinian suicide bomers blowing
              up kids at the disco (no crime having bad taste in music) is
              murder.  Any questions?
           \_ Easy enough to understand:  Palestinian fanatics make an
              effort to kill as many Israeli civilians as possibe; Mossad
              tries to kill Palestinian fanatics.  As for Jewish settlers
              and Palestinian residents shooting at each other, many
              wouldn't be so anti-Palestinian today if there weren't any
              suicide bombers.  Anyways, like I said, Israel provokes the
              fanatics with settlements, erecting a police state, and acting
              like oppressors in general -- its the radicals' fault if they
              continue to blow themselves up in shopping areas in response.
              \_ Israel cleaned *all* of the settlers out of the Sinai to
                 get a guaranteed peace with Egypt so we know Israel is
                 willing to do such a thing.  The problem here is that Arafat
                 nor any other Palestinian leader can or will grant Israel
                 any sort of peace, guaranteed or otherwise.  Get some real
                 leadership on the palestinian side that can guarantee a peace
                 and there'll be something to talk about.
                \_ Although they lost the war, Egypt was too big for Israel
                   to destroy as a whole, so Israel was willing to clean the
                   settlers out for a peace treaty.  My Isreali colleagues,
                   self-described "leftists", all claim they do not really
                   care about the settlement but want to use it as a
                   bargaining chip.  So it seems fair that the Palestinians
                   have nothing but suicice bombing as *their* bargaining chip.
2001/12/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23161 Activity:insanely high
12/5    editorial on israel's true intentions in blaming
        all violence on arafat:
        http://www.fpif.org/commentary/0112arafat.html - danh
        \_ the best solution is to set off a nuclear bomb in Jerusalem so
        \_ Just say it: kill all the Jews and there will finally be peace in
           the middle east.  (There really won't but that's another story).
           Just say what you're really thinking.  Stop dilly dallying around
           with side issues.
           \_ Yes, we have people who want to kill all the Jews posting
              on the motd.  Didn't you hear?
           that way no one can live there for 1000 years and all three
           religions can go find some other place (hopefuly far apart) to
           claim. it's stupid fighting over a small plot of land when the
           earth is friggin' huge.
        \_ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64854-2001Dec5.html
           \_ i think the first url has a good point, that
              every israeli armed reaction reduces arafat's
              legitimacy, then they blame arafat again for terrorism,
              then they invade again, etc.
           \_ I think Arafat will be assasinated by the Hamas soon.
              Then Israel would be forced to invade and take over
              Palestine.
              \_ truly a win-win situation for sharon :(
                 \_ who *wouldn't* benefit from arafat's death?
                    \_ the palestinians.  the u.s.  why do you think the
                       u.s. gave an explicit order to sharon not to touch
                       arafat a few days ago?
        \_ Arafat was offered 99% of everything in 1999.  He was *never* going
           to get a better deal.  He walked away.  Tough shit now, baby.
           \_ 99% of nothing is more like it. Without a right of return,
              the offer is nothing.
              \_ So you're saying that not allowing a right of return
                 (letting Palestinians who were removed from Israel return
        \_ palestine can't become a state regardless of israel with 3 groups
                 there), combined with the creation of Palestine, is nothing?
           \_ who suffers for arafat's mistake?  how does killing him
              improve the situation?  idiot.
               \_ It might.  We know for a fact that Arafat isn't interested
                  in any deals.  He walked away from the best deal possible.
                  So, yes, killing him might help.  Also, just because I'm
                  more aware of the situation and have put more thought into
                  it doesn't make me an idiot.  I'm sorry I don't follow your
                  mindless knee-jerk response to the whole thing.  You suggest
                  what?  That they talk some more?  Whatever.
                \_ arafat's nation suffers for his mistake.  therefore, he
                should eith step down to hand over to a compotent leader/group
                or die so a compotent leader/group can take over.
                   \_ don't you understand that hamas is the power broker
                      right behind fatah?  and hamas claimed responsibility
                      for the last terrorist attack?
                \_ Competent government and Palestinian = oxymoron
        sharing 33% each. There has to be a civil war in it to rid the other
        2 groups so any nation can recognize them as an entire nation that can
        be dealt with as one. Every nation goes through this, the US did in the
        civil war, it will have to go through this for Palestine.
2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36332 Activity:nil
9/19    Another one for the America haters
        http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba89ffd1b40.htm
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22489 Activity:high
9/16    "The deputy secretary of state, Paul Wolfowitz, said that 'the whole
        civilised world has been shocked... and even portions of the
        uncivilised world have started to wonder whether they're on the
        wrong side.'"
        \_ url?
           \_ http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552381,00.html
        \_ While you're at the guardian, read this too:
           http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552785,00.html
        \_ Why do you keep posting garbage from the guardian.  Let me give
           the guardian exegesis: "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians
           the Guardian's exegesis: "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians
           and 'repressed' people are good.  Now let me ramble
           on about some socialist utopia because I like to hear
           myself talk."
           the Guardian's exegesis:
             "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians and 'repressed'
              people are good.  Now let me ramble on about some socialist
              utopia because I like to hear myself talk."
             [ reformatted - motd formatting daemon ]
           Except these are the same fucks that thrive in a society
           protected by the post WWII 'dirty' foreign policy of the US.
           They offer no plausible alternative (because there
           are very few), they just critisize.
           are very few), they just criticize.
           are very few), they just criticize.  For what its worth,
           even the Quaran acknowledges Jews have a right to live
           in Canaan (Isreal).
           They offer no plausible alternative (because there are very few),
           they just criticize.  For what its worth, even the Quaran
           acknowledges Jews have a right to live in Canaan (Isreal).
                \_ You're an idiot.
                  \_I reciprocate the sentiment petulant traitorous twit.
           \_ Hi racist Jew! You've been causing quite the ruckus lately.
                \_ So you deny the Quaran and Bible grant Canaan to Jews
                   and Arabia to the Muslims.  BTW I love Buchanan.
                   and Arabia to the Muslims.  BTW I'm a Buchanan fan.
           \_ These postings are interesting because the offer a different
              perspective than the mainstraim American press has offered so
              far.
              perspective than what the mainstraim American press has offered so
              far. As for the British, I think they would differ with your
              assesment that they are ungrateful for the efforts of the USj
              assesment that they are ungrateful for the efforts of the US
              during WWII. -payam
                \_ I said Guardian not British subjects.
                   \_ I think the Guardian would beg to differ also. -payam
             \_ No different than what you can find in the slightly-out-of-
                 mainstream American press like Salon, etc.  What bothers me
                 about many of these types of articles is how the authors try
                 to throw in *every* *single* *thing* they don't like about the
                 US into the mix: Nicaragua/the Contras; US non-ratification
                 of the Kyoto treaty; walking out of the hijacked Durban
                 racism conference; "well, garwsh, that just proves all that
                 money we spent on missle defense sure was a waste, wasn't
                 it?"  I knew that US activities abroad were often shameful,
                 bloody, and contradictory *before* the WTC bombing, thanks.
                 I don't need some snide European (or a snide wannabe-
                 European) writing condescending articles about what he
                 *thinks* I don't know right now.  Still, if people want to
                 write articles on how US policy in the Middle East has
                 contributed to terrorism, that's their right.  But when so-
                 called "journalists" use the deaths of 5,000 people to poke
                 sticks at America for every pet cause under the sun, that's
                 shameless, crass opportunism.  I don't think that bin Laden
                 struck last week because he was upset about us not ratifying
                 the Kyoto treaty.
           \_ Why don't you think about these pictures while you read these
              these articles
                http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba3a5665fbd.htm
                http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba1fbd33a84.htm
                 \_ while the Kyoto protocol may not have anything to do with
                    the WTC bombing, it's perfectly relevant in that it shows
                    how US foreign polic
                 \_ While the Kyoto protocol may not have had anything to do
                    with the WTC bombing, it's perfectly relevant in that
                    it shows how the US believes it can "go it alone" on
                    anything.  Of course, if there's something we want to
                    do, we twist everyone else's arm to join our side or
                    suffer crossing the world's last "superpower."
        \_ I hope by "uncivilised world" Wolfowitz wasn't referring to the
           whole Islamic or Arab world.
        \_ I hope by "the uncivilised world" Wolfowitz wasn't referring to the
           whole Islamic world or the whole Arab world.
2001/9/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22450 Activity:high
9/14    USA Today Headline: "Palestinian leaders try to repair image --
        Effort includes threats to the media"
        http://usatoday.com/usatonline/20010913/3627513s.htm
        \_ Why do Palestinians hate America so much?  What's wrong with them?
                \_ Israel has occupied Palestinian lands for decades. U.S. backs
                   Israel.
           \_ The united states was pretty key in forming israel and (as the
              poster below points out) supporting it with weapons and cash.
              poster below points out) supporting it weapons and cold cash.
              Additionally, US foreign policy in the middle east (dating back
              to the cold war and after WWII) has been extremely mercenary --
              we gave money and training to ANYONE willing to fight the
              soviets; even if the current groups was in opposition to one of
              groups we'd supported before.  The fact that we've been playing
              a pretty shifty game, coupled with the fact that their religious
              beliefs are in oppostion to those of the US....
                \_ the weapons the israelis use on palestinians
                   come from the united states.  we are also
                   israel's biggest trading partner.  many israeli
                   settlers living in well guarded compounds in the west
                   bank were united states citizens.
                   \_ Ah, like Uzis, Galils, Kfirs and Merkavas, not to forget
                      the Israeli nuclear program we actively sponsored.  You
                      are a bit off-base;  that hatred is the result of a
                      fairly uneducated and volatile population being taken
                      cynical advantage of by fanatical, resentful religious
                      groups.  -John
                \_ so we need to educate the population that the US
                   didn't give Israel gunships and missiles, but we sell them
                   to Israel, except Israel uses aid dollars we gave them?
                   I think saying we spend billions of dollars supporting
                   Israel is a valid point, no matter how much we educate
                   the Palestinians.  we need to educate Israel into treating
                   the Palestinian minority in a more humane way.
                      \_ more so we need moderate/peaceful muslim to educate
                         the fanatics/uninformed that US and the rest of the
                         world are not against muslim, but we are against
                         world is not against muslim, but we are against
                         terrorists.  Taliban is claiming that getting
                         to bin Laden equals to attack on musim, what kind
                         of f***** up logic is that?! But guess what, a lot of
                         muslim would belive the claim looking at all the
                         anti-arab activies/sentiment displayed.  Step back
                         and think about it before you run down to your
                         local mosque and help Taliban to solidify their claim.
                \_ There are plenty of reason why they hate us.  We installed
                   Shah in Iran (not exactly most humane regime on face of the
                   earth).  We support Iraq when it invaded Iran.  We shut
                   down Iran passener jet because we think it is an F-14.
                   Ultimately, I think our unconditional support for
                   Israel didn't really help neither.  What Israel has done
                   to Palestinians are identical to what we have done to
                   the native American: build nation upon the promise
                   land... by whiping out those who lived there for past
                   2000 years.  Those sucide bomber are nothing more than
                   an desperate and fruitless attempt to prevent such
                   demise from happening.
              soviets; even if the current group was in opposition to one of
              the groups we'd supported before.  The fact that we've been
              playing a pretty shifty game, coupled with the fact that their
              religious beliefs are in oppostion to those of the US....  --mice
              religious beliefs are in oppostion to those of the US....
           \_ the weapons the israelis use on palestinians
              come from the united states.  we are also
              israel's biggest trading partner.  many israeli
              settlers living in well guarded compounds in the west
              bank were united states citizens.
           \_ I find it extremely disturbing that the US gives more money
              in foreign aid to Israel than to any other country.
        \_ Even the Quaran acknowledges Jews have a right to be
           in Canaan.
                         of f*** up logic is that?! Step back and think about
                         it before you run down to your local mosque and
                         help Taliban to shore up their claim.
                         muslim would belive the claim.  Step back and think
                         about it before you run down to your local mosque and
                         help Taliban to solidify their claim.
                   \_ The thing I am against is the economic sanctions
                      and bombings against Iraq 12 years after a war that
                      lasted 1 year.  How many Kuwaitis and Nato soldiers
                      died in the invasion of Kuwait and defeat of the
                      Iraqi forces.  How many Iraqis civilians have died
                      as a result of the economic sanctions?  Seems like
                      the response is disproportionate to the crime.
2001/9/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36295 Activity:nil
9/12    So why do the western powers antagonize the Arabs the way they do?
        \_ So who do Arabs antagonize westerners the way they do?
        \_ So why do Arabs antagonize westerners the way they do?
        a) why does Israel insist on creating "settlements" in Arab areas?
           \_ Because God told them to.
        b) why does Israel insist that Jerusalem must belong only to them?
           \_ As opposed to say the PLO who will not let jews or christians
              or any non-muslim into Jerusalem? Yeah let's just hand it over
              to a bunch of inhuman thugs.
              \_ This comment is idiotic. Non-Muslims go to Jerusalem all
                 the time.
                 \_ Because it is (or was) in Jewish hands. If turned over
                    to the PLO, all access to Jerusalem will be restricted
                    to muslims.
                    \_ Historically, when Jeruslam was in Arab or Muslim
                       hands, it was open to Christian pilgrims from around
                       the world.
        c) why has Israel used live fire on rock-throwing Palestinian youths,
           treated them like second hand citizens, subjected children to random
           violent interrogations and searches and seizures?
           \_ why does the media only show the rock throwing, and not
              the molotovs and shots against the Israeli troups?
           \_ Because the PLO employs children and youths as delivery
              mechanisms for its bombs etc.
              Oh yeah, let's not forget that the PLO also uses live fire,
              its just that you don't see it on CNN.
              \_ you do see it on CNN. but obviously these children are only
                 going to hate the more when all of them are treated with the
                 assumption of guilt. anyway Palestine is just one issue and
                 I think not the most important one to the rest of the Arabs;
                 palestinian terrorists seem mostly to target israel.
           \_ Perhaps you should read this:
            http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-horowitz091001.shtml
              The PLO isn't kids who are feeling bad.
              \_ written by a jew.
        c) why has/does the United States prop up corrupt regimes in
           South America, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. etc... just to secure oil
           and stop the "communist plot to take over the world"? CIA-assisted
           coups all over the place supporting the same dictators we publicly
           denounce.
        Terrorists aren't crazy. They're incredibly desperate. If you think
        about it, terrorism is the only deterrance to the western powers in
        their conduct. If you were living under extreme oppression and the US
        was the ultimate power behind your oppressors you'd cheer too when a
        blow was made that actually meant something to them. There are so many
        more issues here than people understand it's sickening. Of course the
        tragedy is sickening too. But it's not like these muslims just randomly
        hate the us for no reason, and blow themselves up for jollies.
        \_ You should read this:
           http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14274-2001Sep11.html
        \_ What oppression? Most of those Arab countries are prospering
           with oil exports. I would make the exception with Iraq, who
           invaded another country, Iran, who kidnapped US embassy workers
           and has since sponsored terrorism, and the Palestinians who
           may have some cause for rebellion but not to the point of
           crashing planes into buildings.
           \_ BTW Iran is *not* an Arab country.  It's a Persian country.
              http://www.freep.com/jobspage/arabs/arab2.html
           \_ In Iraq, most of the people are dirt poor. Only a few control oil.
        \_ I'd want to the police to shoot live rounds at rock throwers, too.
           There's this silly misconception among people that they don't
           deserve to be shot at if they throw fist-sized rocks at soldiers.
           \_ at children? maybe that's because you're a sick fuck.
              \_ a "child" with a handgrenade is still an enemy that needs
                 to be taken out.
                 \_ Too bad most motd bleeding hearts don't understand this.
              \_ nah, it's usually kids intermingled with young adults
                 oh yeah, and calm down silly
                 \_ tell that to those advocating turning the middle east into
                    pavement and pointing to islam as the driving force here.
                    tell that to all the western leaders who spout predictable
                    crap about "terrorism will not stand" without any blip about
                    why we suffer terrorism. even the media has every fact you
                    might want to know...except in the faq there's no entry for
                    "why".
                    \_ nah, you can tell them that.  I'm just making a single
                       point about rock throwing
        \_ The PLO can lock up individuals in Palesitian radical factions
           they suspect of planning suicide bombings.
           The Israelis could stop building settlements.
           Now, tell me why neither has occurred?
           \_ Because the palestinians want more land, and Israel wants
              all of their land back. You know, the land they had for
              a long time, promised to them by God?
              \_ You fucking idiot.
              \_ Man, your ignorance is truly frightening.
                 \_ Your unfounded namecalling is truely frightening.
                    Are you incapable of logical refutation, then?
                    Display your "enlightenment" in the face of "ignorance"
                    \_ Why?  Unfounded namecalling takes much less effort.
                    \_ I've got yer "logical refutation" right here pal.
              \_ By your "logic", most of Europe should belong to Italy.
                 The US should be obliterated and the native Americans'
                 descendants given control. And I should own the world, since
                 mine are the Old Gods of Atlantis, who granted my people all
                 dominions of Earth. This was 20000 BC by the way.
                 \_ so what criteria do you propose to decide which
                    group owns the land? current possesion?
                    Okay, in that case Israel currently possesses a large
                    chunk of that land, so they should kick all the
                    self-professed palestinians out, and immediately built
                    settlements on every square inch of unsettled land.
                    When they surround a "palestinian" city, then they can
                    be considered as posessing the vicinity, so Israal should
                    be able to kick them out of those areas too.
                    You're missing the up-side of the biblical
                    interpretation. The bible has specific BOUNDARIES on
                    the land of Israel. Once they get that land, there will
                    be no further aggression from their side.
                    Unlike the palestinians, who just want as much land
                    as they can grab peacefully, and then as much on top
                    of that as they can get by force.
                    \_ dude, the bible is not a legal fucking document.
                       your obvious bias means this conversation can go nowhere.
                       the boundaries in the bible were an empire at its height,
                       in ancient times for a relatively brief period. a lot of
                       different peoples have lived there before and since. if
                       you don't understand compromise you're as vile as those
                       bombers.
                       \_ You cannot compromise with these people. To believe
                          that it is possible to do so foolish and ignorant.
                          The only "compromise" or "settlement" (pardon the pun)
                          that will appease the muslim race is the utter and
                          total destruction of the nation of israel, the jewish
                          race and anyone found to be sympathetic to zionism.
                          To any sane human being, these are unacceptable terms
                          which can never be accepted.
                          which can never be accepted.  - ntop
                          \_ you learned your lessons well, sonny.
                             there is no muslim race.
                             secondly, building settlements in palestinian areas
                             is far from even attempting to compromise. sounds
                             like you're the one who is unable to compromise.
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22432 Activity:moderate
9/14    Some of us are anti-NSA people.  But now that this has happened,
        have we changed our views about the role of NSA?
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/13/national0614EDT0518.DTL
        \_ I'm not one of the heavily anti-NSA folks, but I might be after
           this. Why should we expand the powers of an agency that was
           apparently taken completely by surprise by this? I would
           suggest that perhaps the current set of agencies with their
           WWII-era agendas should be replaced with a new agency with
           a contemporary understanding of what to pay attention to.
           \_ Same to CIA.
           \_ silly sodans, who do you think would staff this "new" agency?
             \_ I volunteer you, to start with. Only some pinko
                commie would fail to rise to the challenge in our hour
                of need.
                \_ I volunteer to arrest anyone who uses the words
                   "pinko commie" in a non-ironic sort of way.
                   \_ Relax, I was just trying to make a point about how
                      federal agencies end up the way they do. I do
                      a lot of public sector related work. Good people
                      like, perhaps, yourself, stay away because they
                      mistrust the agencies. Granted my work is mainly
                      with more mundane outfits like the Bureau of Indian
                      Affairs or the Dept of Justice --ulysses
                      \_ article says that the gov't lost top talent to
                         the dot com's and other place.  The gov't doesn't
                         pay that much.
                         \_ The pay issue is real, but the larger problem
                            that I see that is my friends on the left and
                            and the right disagree on everything except
                            their disdain for the gov't and anybody who
                            works for the gov't. Travesties like this will
                            re-occur until something is done to
                            re-establish some sense of respect for working
                            for the gov't. I don't know if this is possible
                            though. Things have gotten so bad. --ulysses
                            \_  I don't have any disdain for the government.
                               I just think they put way too much emphasis
                               on high-tech/electronic surveillance which
                               is great for collecting information from
                               the Russian millitary and innocent US
                               citizens but doesn't really do anything to
                               stop terrorism. We need spies, not satellites
                               and the government should pour more money
                               into the CIA than it does into the NSA
                               (not the other way around).
                                \_ I could hardly argue, and I hope current
                                   events may bring others to that POV, as
                                   well. --ulysses
                            \_ Point made.
                         \_ I'd be willing to work for free if it means
                            that this sort of bs can be prevented. I have
                            to admit, based on my work experience at nasa
                            I always though of gov't workers as lazy bums
                            sitting on thier arses playing solitare and
                            living off the labors of others (taxes). These
                            types of individuals need to go. We can never
                            again be complacent. Eternal vigilence is the
                            price of freedom.
                      a lot of public sector related work. --ulysses
                            that this sort of bs can be prevented.
        \_ Israel has much better human intelligence capability.  Don't know
           about the post-KGB Russia.
        \_ Israel has much better human intelligence capability.
           \_ So why don't they go after bin Laden for us? It's about time they
              did something for us for a change.
2001/9/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22419 Activity:high
9/12    How convenient:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1541000/1541228.stm
        \_ About time. No more suicide bombers from that town, at least.
           \_ Oh?  do you think the presence of Israeli tanks, soldiers, and
              killing will make the people into pacificists?
              \_ Probably not, but it will remove their ability to train each
                 other so easily.
              \_ Perhaps if the tanks and soldiers are used to kill the people
                 who are suicide bombers then the problem will be solved.
                 \_ "All suicide bombers, please come out with your hands up!".
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36280 Activity:nil
9/12    Exscuse me for my ignorance, but why don't we just stop doing
        whatever is making the terrorists mad? Why not pull out support for
        Israel and let them deal with the PLO? Why would not supporting
        Israel hurt the US? Does the fact that
        10% or so of our politicians are Jewish and none are muslim
        have anything to do with it?
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22411 Activity:insanely high
9/12    So why do the western powers antagonize the Arabs the way they do?
        a) why does Israel insist on creating "settlements" in Arab areas?
           \_ Because God told them to.
        b) why does Israel insist that Jerusalem must belong only to them?
           \_ As opposed to say the PLO who will not let jews or christians
              or any non-muslim into Jerusalem? Yeah let's just hand it over
              to a bunch of inhuman thugs.
              \_ This comment is idiotic. Non-Muslims go to Jerusalem all
                 the time.
                 \_ Because it is (or was) in Jewish hands. If turned over
                    to the PLO, all access to Jerusalem will be restricted
                    to muslims.
        c) why has Israel used live fire on rock-throwing Palestinian youths,
           treated them like second hand citizens, subjected children to random
           violent interrogations and searches and seizures?
           \_ why does the media only show the rock throwing, and not
              the molotovs and shots against the Israeli troups?
           \_ Because the PLO employs children and youths as delivery
              mechanisms for its bombs etc.
              Oh yeah, let's not forget that the PLO also uses live fire,
              its just that you don't see it on CNN.
              \_ you do see it on CNN. but obviously these children are only
                 going to hate the more when all of them are treated with the
                 assumption of guilt. anyway Palestine is just one issue and
                 I think not the most important one to the rest of the Arabs;
                 palestinian terrorists seem mostly to target israel.
           \_ Perhaps you should read this:
            http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-horowitz091001.shtml
              The PLO isn't kids who are feeling bad.
        c) why has/does the United States prop up corrupt regimes in
           South America, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. etc... just to secure oil
           and stop the "communist plot to take over the world"? CIA-assisted
           coups all over the place supporting the same dictators we publicly
           denounce.
        Terrorists aren't crazy. They're incredibly desperate. If you think
        about it, terrorism is the only deterrance to the western powers in
        their conduct. If you were living under extreme oppression and the US
        was the ultimate power behind your oppressors you'd cheer too when a
        blow was made that actually meant something to them. There are so many
        more issues here than people understand it's sickening. Of course the
        tragedy is sickening too. But it's not like these muslims just randomly
        hate the us for no reason, and blow themselves up for jollies.
        \_ What oppression? Most of those Arab countries are prospering
           with oil exports. I would make the exception with Iraq, who
           invaded another country, Iran, who kidnapped US embassy workers
           and has since sponsored terrorism, and the Palestinians who
           may have some cause for rebellion but not to the point of
           crashing planes into buildings.
        \_ I'd want to the police to shoot live rounds at rock throwers, too.
           There's this silly misconception among people that they don't
           deserve to be shot at if they throw fist-sized rocks at soldiers.
           \_ at children? maybe that's because you're a sick fuck.
              \_ a "child" with a handgrenade is still an enemy that needs
                 to be taken out.
                 \_ Too bad most motd bleeding hearts don't understand this.
              \_ nah, it's usually kids intermingled with young adults
                 oh yeah, and calm down silly
                 \_ tell that to those advocating turning the middle east into
                    pavement and pointing to islam as the driving force here.
                    tell that to all the western leaders who spout predictable
                    crap about "terrorism will not stand" without any blip about
                    why we suffer terrorism. even the media has every fact you
                    might want to know...except in the faq there's no entry for
                    "why".
                    \_ nah, you can tell them that.  I'm just making a single
                       point about rock throwing
        \_ The PLO can lock up individuals in Palesitian radical factions
           they suspect of planning suicide bombings.
        \_ The PLO can arrest Palesitian radical factions they suspect
           as participating in suicide bombings.
           The Israelis could stop building settlements.
           Now, tell me why neither has occurred?
           Now, tell me why niether has occurred?
           \_ Participating in suicide bombings? Aren't they already dead?
           \_ Because the palestinians want more land, and Israel wants
              all of their land back. You know, the land they had for
              a long time, promised to them by God?
              \_ You fucking idiot.
              \_ Man, your ignorance is truly frightening.
                 \_ Your unfounded namecalling is truely frightening.
                    Are you incapable of logical refutation, then?
                    Display your "enlightenment" in the face of "ignorance"
                    \_ Why?  Unfounded namecalling takes much less effort.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22398 Activity:nil
9/12    Anyone know who is that Middle East/Israel correspondent for NBC
        with the short hair.  First name is Donna?
2001/6/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:21435 Activity:high
6/5     http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010605/od/transplant_dc_1.html
        \_ if this were an American movie, there would just be enough time
           for a big reconciliation scene and then the credits.  --erikred
        \_ I first thought this happened in some third party country, but I was
           surprised to read that it occured right at Isarel where the heat of
           the conflict is.  I'm deeply touched.  I hope this will bring better
           relations to them just like the Turkey earthquake a few years ago
           did to the Turkish and the Greek.
           \_ By forming new settlements in Palestinian areas, Israel has taken
              and continues to take the position of aggressor in the conflict.
              The responsibility thus lies on Israel's shoulders. So far they
              have shown no signs of backing down and this incident won't
              change that in the slightest. You may see lip service at most.
              \_ yes, everyone knows that [new] Zionist settlements are the
                 worst terrorism that could ever be perpetrated on the
                 Palestinian people.
                 \_ How can you equate Zionism to terrorism? That's like
                    saying that guys liking women's breasts is sexism on
                    an earlier motd post.
                 \_ non sequitur. i said Israel is the aggressor. if you
                    disagree why don't you make a cogent comment instead of
                    sarcastic, meaningless drivel.
                    \_ That was actually a quote from a Hamas spokesperson.
                       I don't think he was being sarcastic.
2001/5/29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:21379 Activity:kinda low
5/30    Some good news in the world as the Israelis and Palestinians agree to
        meet again for the first time in... months? More than a year? A long
        time. http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/05/29/mideast.02/index.html
        \_ did the israelis offer to stop settling in the west bank and gaza?
2001/5/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:21186 Activity:high
5/6     When is Mother's Day?
        \_ the 13th
        \_ you're mom's not jewish, is she?
        \_ your mom's not jewish, is she?
           \_ Hello?  College student?  "you're" = a contraction of "you are".
              "your" is the word you're (you are) looking for.
           \_ Catholic
        \_ First Sunday in may, I.e. TODAY YOU LOSER!
           \_ coulda sworn it was next week... the 13th
           \_ No, it's the second Sunday in May.
        \_ When is yermom's day?
           \_ everyday is yermom's day
                \_ or night.
                \_ Everyday is my lucky day
2001/4/30-5/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:21143 Activity:insanely high
4/30    Remember kiddies, do your part to arm china. buy more chinese goods
        - help the PLA/PLAN/PLAAF.
        \_ this is dumb. of course i'll buy chinese goods. if it's the same
           quality for less, i'd be stupid not to. the real problem is our
           trade policies that put no compensatory tariffs on imports from
           nations that do not adhere to environmental and labor standards
           that domestic companies must, and nations like Japan that have
           high trade barriers to which we do not respond in kind, and groups
           like whatever lobby is responsible for our continued monetary aid
           to places like israel that i doubt any american really wants their
           tax dollars being funneled to.
           \_ Monetary aid to Israel that is pre-earmarked to buying American
              weapons.  It's really just a grant to the American weapons
              industry.  Those dirty Jews don't get the cash to spend on
              just any old thing.
              \_ what does that have to do with anything? it's still giving
                 them my money. does this somehow make it okay, or good for
                 taxpayers? if it's so good we should have the government
                 buy tons of computers and cars and other shit and give that
                 away too.
                 \_ Medicare and Welfare and the EPA are giving my money
                    away to worthless causes. At least if my money is used
                    to purchase weapons that are used by the people of
                    Israel defend thier homes and thier freedoms, my money
                    is put to better use than wasting it on some lowlifes
                    who can't get off thier asses to find work or for some
                    tree huggers who just want to stand in the way of modern
                    civilization and progress.
                    \_ what does this have to do with anything? all this
                       is irrelevant to the fact that tax dollars are going
                       to israel, and i've never seen anyone that wants this,
                       except the israelis.
                       \_ *I* want this.  Now you can't honestly say you don't
                          know of American citizens who want their tax money
                          to go to support Israel.  You'd rather it go to what?
                          If they're going to tax the shit out of me, better it
                          goes to Israeli weapons than some welfare whores.
                          \_ are you jewish? if so, i rest my case. otherwise,
                             why do you consider this an either/or case? both
                             are happening. why do you keep bringing up welfare?
                             \_ You rest your case?  Based on what?  I'm an
                                American and I pay a shitload of taxes to the
                                state and federal government all year long. I'm
                                also a registered voter and I actually vote.
                                Can you provide a URL for where it says tax
                                paying, voting American born citizens have no
                                say in how their money gets spent?  And welfare
                                has a lot to do with it.  I'll say it again for
                                you.  This is _my_ money they're taking in
                                taxes.  If I must pay taxes I want the money to
                                go to things I support, like Israel and not
                                things I don't such as welfare whores.  What is

                                so hard to understand about that?
                                \_ right. do you understand that disabled people
                                wasn't going to the defense of Isreal, it would
                                   are on medicare/welfare? not everyone is
                                   able to support themselves. i suppose you
                                   would just have them killed? or leave them
                                   to their poverty. furthermore, welfare
                                   choices are issues that come up in elections;
                                   sending money to israel doesn't. it is not
                                   the duty of the united states to send money
                                   to foreign nations to support "causes."
                                   the world runs on self-interest. the money
                                   is sent because of self-interest groups
                                   with undue influence.
                                   \_ The number of people on welfare who
                                      can't take care of themselves is miniscule.
                                      Most of the people on the dole are
                                      just to lazy to get a job.
           \_ Wen Ho Lee is hardly innocent. He has pled guilt to most
                                      In the case of Israel, if we don't
                                      support them, they will not survive.
                                      And the "holy land" will not be free.
                                      I'm not jewish, christian or muslim,
                                      but the though of Jerusalem in Muslim
                                      hands is frightening.
                                      \_ god you are an idiot. on what do you
                                         base this "miniscule" claim?? anyway
                                         the job of the *US* government is to
                                         do things that help the *US* people,
                                         not the israeli people, you fuckwit.
                                         besides which, israel is and has been
                                         for decades overwhelmingly capable of
                                         defending itself. if you want to
                                         support them further you can send
                                         your own money there, but you can't
                                         pretend that most americans would do
                                         so. there are many causes right here
                                         in the usa that money could be spent
                                         on.
                                         \_ welfare is not help, esp. when
                                            most of the people who are on
                                            welfare are using my money to
                                            buy drugs and avoid work. Ideally
                                            the government wouldn't waste
                           commies traitors out to ruin this country.  They
                                            any money and I wouldn't be
                                            overtaxed, but in reality that
                                            won't happen because of the
                                            greedy liberals in Washington
                                            who think that its their $s
                                            instead of mine. Since money
                                            will be wasted anyway, better
                                            that it gets put to good use
                                            defending Israel rather than
                                            to bad use by some crack whore
                                            in the bronx.
                                 in case you forgot the point   _/
                                 of this, it isn't whether israel
                                 is a "good cause", it's whether US
                                 representatives should be doing things
                          \_ Did you read the link to the Dir. Freeh's
                             statement? He states that the charges were
                             dropped because proving would compromise
                             national security.
                                 that *most* americans do not want,
                                 for their own personal gain. and you
                                 can't elect/not elect based on these
                                 issues because they are buried under
                                 more important ones. this is called
                                 corruption. your "it's good because
                                 at least it's not welfare" is totally
                                 ridiculous. the same goes for our
                                 trade policies.
                                   \_ Prove to me that *most* americans
                                      don't want to support Israel or
                                      that such support is given by
                                      elected representatives for personal
                                      gain.
                                      \_ it's not a matter of "support" it's
                                         a matter of doling out money. we
                                         "support" taiwan but we don't actually
                                         buy their arms with tax dollars. us
                                         policies in the middle east have a lot
                                         to do with arabs hating the usa, they
                                         didn't just wake up one morning and
                                         decide "usa sux". but that's ok,
                                         cuz they're muslims, and it's ok to
                                         be anti-muslim.
                                 \_ Why do you keep saying "most" Americans
                                    agree with you?  URL, please?  Here, how
                                    about I say something equally unfounded:
                                    "Most Americans want tax money spent on
                                    Israel".  There.  Now we've both said
                                    something unfounded, unproven and unknown.
                                    We're now equally stupid and ridiculous.
                                    And I think *you* forgot the point of this.
                                    This thread was started as a "boycott
                                    Chinese goods" thread, not the antisemitic
                                    thread you turned it into.
                                    \_ oh that's classic. i was just waiting
                                       for the "antisemitic" thing to come up.
                                       the typical shield. you don't want to
                                       give your money to israel?? you racist
                                       bastard! you don't want to be RACIST,
                                       do you? that's right, cough it up.
                                       fucking dumbshit. and i brought up
                                       israel as an example of a special
                                       interest cause, because our stupid
                                       trade policies wrt china are also
                                       governed by special interest groups.
                                       \_ Lets all just agree to disagree.
                                       \_ You still fail to provide any proof
                                          of your assertion that "most Americans"
                                          oppose helping Israel and hide behind
                                          one minor comment.  Israel isn't a
                                          random special interest cause.  It is
                                          the only democracy and friendly
                                          nation in a very unfriendly area of
                                          the world to the US.  It behooves
                                          this country to help that country.
                                          Where's that link about "most
                                          Americans"?  Ho hum... oh?  There
                                          isn't one?  You were just debating
                                          out your ass?  What a surprise!  I
                                          called you anti-semitic because you
                                          instantly dismissed any defense of
                                          Israel thinking I might be Jewish.
                                          You're an anti-semite.  That's ok.
                                          You're not a alone.  A lot of people
                                          are.  Now where's that link about
                                          "most Americans" agreeing with you
                                          on the subject of helping Israel?
                                          \_ i'm not going to argue about
                                             the real point when you bring
                                             the anti-semite bullshit into
                                             this. what possible basis do
                                             you have for calling me this?
                                             all i did was dismiss support
                                             for this policy by jews, since
                                             by definition their religion
                                             obligates them to consider
                                             israel the holy land etc. which
                                             is just reality. the religion
                                             says they're the chosen people.
                                             obviously they're going to be
                                             biased. if you can't understand
                                             this you're a waste of time.
                                             \_ You're guilty as charged and
                                                still unable to provide a link
                                                saying *any* Americans agree
                                                with your views, much less
                                                "most" Americans.  You put up
                                                a good fight for someone with
                                                such obvious biases and near
                                                zero debate skills, but it's
                                                over.  You got no links, you
                                                got no argument, you got nada.
                                                Insert coin to continue? Y/n
                                if debate skills consist of twisting _/
                          \_ Maybe so for long dead people, but
                             poor villagers in India almost always
                             have better teeth than city slickers.
                             Their teeth may be colored, but its
                             never rotten, and that largely due to
                             thier diet.
                                a discussion into "you're racist" and
                                "i'm right and you're wrong" then yes
                                you have commendable debate skills.
                                \_ You both are complete morons. Stop
                                   extending this damn motd to a 50 page
                                   book.
                             \_ I'm not jewish. It is either/or. If my money
                                wasn't going to the defense of Israel, it would
                                be getting wasted on dipshit treehuggers, and
                                welfare crack whores. If my $s have to get
                                spent, better it is on the defense of the
                                Jewish homeland.
                       \_ Tax $s get misspent all the time. At least with
                          Israel its going to a good cause.
                          \_ what is good about that cause?
                             \_ The struggle for the freedom and the right
                                of the Jewish people to live. The defense
                                of the rights and freedoms of people is
                                by definition a good cause.
        \_ Uhm, whatever.  Avoiding Chinese goods won't make a big difference.
           Kicking all their students and spies out might.
           \_ Yeah. We, like, need to build Chinese internet camps like we
              did for Japanese Americans in WWII because you know how all of
              them were spies.
                \_ Yeah, like we need more straw men like this.  Nice try.
                \_ Chinese internet camps would be cool.  t3 lines to every
                   computer and only chinese are alowed to use it.
                   \_ the US would be taken over rapidly.. he means internment?
                        \_ I think he does but he's too busy trolling to check
                           his spelling and word choices.
        \_ 1824, Ralph Waldo Emerson
                   "The closer contemplation we condescend to
                   bestow, the more disgustful is that booby nation I
                   have no gift to see a meaning in the venerable
                   vegetation of this extraordinary people. They are
                   tools for other nations to use. Even miserable
                   Africa can say I have hewn the wood and drawn
                   the water to promote the civilization of other lands.
                   But China, reverend dullness, hoary idiot! All she
                   can say at the convocation of nations must be --- I
                   made the tea."
           1881, Republican Senator,John Miller of California:
                   "The Chinese are inhabitants of another planet.
                   Machine like. They are automatic engines of flesh
                   and blood. Why not discriminate? Why aid in the
                   increase and distribution over our domain of a
                   degraded and inferior race, and the progenitors of
                   an inferior sort of men. We ask you to secure us
                   American anglo-saxon civilization without
                   contamination or adulteration. Let us keep pure the
                   blood which circulates through our political
                   system. And preserve our life from the gangrene of
                   oriental civilization."
           1999, Representitive of California, Christopher Cox:
                   "essentially ALL Chinese visitors to the U.S. are
                    potential spies. Futhermore, all Chinese Americans
                    are potential "sleeper agents," who can be used at
                    any time but may not be activated for a decade or
                    more."

           When we fought a civil war to abolished Slavery, we put
           Chinese labors in pig pens and import to Cuba (the term we
           used them was "coolies").

           When we talk about innocent until proven guilty, Wen Ho Lee
           was in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, shackled from
           waist down for MONTHS without possiblity of bail.  Though
           we can't prove it, but his name is indeed too Chinese
           sounding to be innocent.
           \_ Wen Ho Lee is hardly innocent. He has pled guilty to most
              of the charges filed against him and there was no question
              as to his guilt in those charges. Only one or two of the
              most serious charges have been dropped. There is still
              no doubt in the minds of most *rational* americans that
              Dr. Lee's action were not in the best interest of this
              nation, its secuity and its people.
              \_ what the fuck are you smoking?  MOST of all his charges were
                 dropped except for a few (like a couple i believe).  Why
                 don't you track down the Time articles are these before you
                 spill.
                 \_ Cough... Time articles?  I bet you love those
                    little colored pie charts in USA Today, right?
                    Lee was guilty.
                    \_ At long last, sir, have you no shame? Have you no
                       sense of decency, sir?
                        \_ Still doesn't mean they weren't a bunch of fucking
                           commie traitors out to ruin this country.  They
                           still are.
                 \_ Okay, 58 of the 59 counts were dropped, but not
                    because Dr. Lee was innocent, its because proving
                    in court that he was guilty would have ment that the
                    FBI (under the  espionage act) would have had to
                    reveal too much information about national security
                    procedures and the information that was stolen.
                    Here's a URL even:
                    http://www.salon.com/news/col/horo/2000/10/03/lee
                    \_ That's the same David Horowitz that tjb quotes.
                       What are you, 64, white, and living in Alabama?
                       Be ashamed of yourself and stop polluting the motd
                       with random URLs pretending to know something.
                   \_ quoting horowitz is not going to win you
                      points around here
                    \_ God damn it!  Stop bringing facts into this!  I really
                       hate when you shut down someone's little rant on their
                       personal agenda with facts.
                       \_ Facts? What facts? The http://salon.com article just
                          mentioned a bunch of hearsays and conjectures
                          of what might have happened.
                          \_ Try again.  I know it's hard.
                             \_ Whatever. You just need a good beating.
                                Because someone said something doesn't
                                make it a fact. The URL points out a lot
                                of facts but none of the facts prove
                                Dr. Lee was a spy.  "Fact: The sky is
                                blue today. Conclusion: Jon Doe was the
                                killer." is a pathetic argument. The
                                same goes for "Fact: Freeh said that
                                that proving Dr. Lee guilty would have
                                resulted in a breach in national security.
                                conclusion: Dr. Lee is a Chinese spy." is
                                also an equally pathetic argument.
                                \_ If proving Dr. Lee guilty (which he
                                   obviously ws) would further compromise
                                   national security, the FBI has to
                                   cut its losses. What part of that
                                   do you not understand?
                                   \_ [ followup about just needing to
                                        prove mishandling of secrets
                                        deleted (censored?) ]
                                      \_ Actually, you have to produce
                                         the files that were mishandled
                                         or at least details about thier
                                         contents under the espionage act.
                                         This is a big problem in certain
                                         cases, esp. in nuclear weapons
                                         technology (which Lee was involved
                                         in *mishandling*).
                    \_ What's special with that?  OJ was innocent too.  Don't
                       blame the races.  Blame the American justice system
                       instead.
                       \_ Wow... this is such a well done troll.  Blunt yet
                          has a subtle hint of "I *must* respond to this
                          fool!".  Bravo!  Well done.
                       \_ I'm not blaming chinese people. I'm just
                          saying that Dr. Lee was guilty.
                       \_ Lee was not *targeted* because he was chinese
                          he was arrested because he *BROKE THE LAW*. Maybe
                          your little criminal mind can't understand
                          that or maybe you don't care about national
                          security or maybe you don't love this nation
                          and its freedoms, but some of us do. And people
                          who compromise the security of this nation
                          have no right to live.
                          \_ Dr. Lee *WAS CHINESE*? I could have sworn
                             he came from a little island that is considered
                             a U.S. ally and very anti-China. In this
                             country, we don't need facts to prove that
                             someone *BROKE THE LAW*. Conjectures and
                             hearsays are good enough.
                             \_ He's still guilty of 1 charge which
                                carries a 25 yr sentence. I'm guessing
                                that means he *BROKE THE LAW*.
                          \_ I agree, and that's why I said blame the justice
                             system for not being able to nail down these
                             bastards.
                             \_ The bane of the innocent until proven
                                guilty system is that guilty men walk
                                free. It is the price of assuring that
                                innocent men are not incorrectly locked
                                up. All in all its a better system than
                                say GB's where it guilty until proven
                                innocent and the burden of proof is on
                                the defendent not the prosecution.
                                \_ Great Britain?  No, there it's also
                                   innocent until proven guilty and guilty
                                   men often walk free.  Same problem.
                                   \_ I just checked my facts, you are
                                      right its innocent until proven
                                      guilty, apparently this was changed
                                      in the late 70s because of several
                                      judicial mistakes:
                             http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/uk00000_.html
                                      \_ But you still don't have nearly as
                                         many rights in GB as you do here if
                                         you're a defendant.
                                         \_ Agreed, GB defense law sucks.

           Selective enforcement of the law based upon race, ethnicity
           and national orgin is the fundamental building block of
           our great nation.  Without it, there will be no land which
           we can establsih our nation; without it, there will be no
           slaves which fuel our economy.
           \_ I'm a victim, I'm oppressed. Cry me a storm wussy boy.
              You can't be oppressed or victimized unless you let it
              happen.

           Anti-Chinese is as American as apple pie. So, live with it!
           \_ Hi Paolo!
           \_ Was this supposed to be shocking or something?  And oh yes, I
              would like some more tea.  Go be a good boy and refill my cup.
              \_ Soli sah thea i no mo tea, injuans dump i in bosto harbo.
                 Perhap you like drink coffee?
                 \_ Get the whips.
           \_ I'm pro-Chinese, as long as they're cute girls! --aaron
              \_ Chinese chix are ugly and have bad teeth.
                 \_ Making fun of poverty, how crass.
                    \_ poor != bad teeth
                       \_ poor => bad teeth.  Condition of teeth is one of
                          the ways Archaelogists used to determine the class/
                          social status/material well being from the remains
                          of a person.
                          \_ White racist oppressor arhcaeologists.  The
                             ultimate in racism: racism covered by the veneer
                             of science.  Oppressing people who aren't even
                             here to defend themselves.  How cowardly.
                          \_ This is not strictly true. In India for
                             example, poor villagers often have much
                             better (ie not rotten) teeth than city
                             slickers. Its mostly due to a better
                             diet.
                             \_ Same in China.
                 \_ so do some Japanese chix. Dentistry in the far east sucks.
                    lots less drugs
                    \_ Japanese chix raised in the US are still much
                       more attractive than chinese chix raised in the
                       US.
                 Japanese chix is where its at.

        \_ List of some spies.  Don't make me dig out my list of 250
           since WWII:
                Harold Nicholson
                Aldrich Ames
                David Sheldon Boone
                Mariano Faget
                George Trofimoff
                Alejandro Alonso
                Earl Pitts
                Richard W. Miller
                Robert Philip Hanssen
                John A. Walker Jr.
                George Bush
                Felix S. Bloch
                Ronald Pelton
                George Blake
                Edward Lee Howard
        \_ xenophobia is bane of society
           \_ buying goods from the enemy is the bane of society
           \_ xenophobia keeps a society from being some random mishmash of
              crap like this country is becoming.
              \_ and i supposed your ancestors were native americans who
                 didn't emigrate here like everyone else? that's about
                 as logical as saying america's strength is derived from
                 being one homogenous population.
2001/4/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:21035 Activity:nil
4/19    Jew spreads her racist drivel about SATs at Cal.
        http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/jennings.html
2000/10/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:19521 Activity:very high
10/18  http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/20001011_xcbtl_myths_brmi.shtml
        \_ i find it hard to sympathize with people who use uzis and gunships
           against people with rocks.
           \_ Don't you mean rocks _and guns_?  Or maybe you haven't been
              watching the same news footage that I have.
              \_ I wish Palestinians just had twice the military force
                 and experience that Israelis have.
                 \_ Ignorant, knee-jerk, and cowardly.  -John
                 \_ So they could genocide a few million jews?  Or you think
                    the PLO, Hamas, and others would run a truly multi ethnic
                    democracy based on the principles of freedom we enjoy in
                    this and a few other western countries?
       \_ There can be no peace whilst those arab muslims live. To believe
          that the Jews are at fault is the most foolish notion that can be
          entertained. If the Arabs win and Israel is eliminated (which is
          thier desire, don't kid yourself) it will be the greatest failure
          of this nation in its efforts to promote freedom and democracy.
          After Israel comes the flood.
          \_ Not sure if you are serious, or trolling, but who is the
             agressor in most of the clashes?  The Palestinians.  They
             force Israeli police/army to defend themselves.  Has ANY
             Palestinian leader (Arafat) come out and say stop inciting
             violence?  Or protest in a peaceful way?  What's up with the
        \_ Arrafat is an ass, israel offers 40% of its territory and he still
             stone throwing?
             \_ There can be no peace while people who say the other
                side should be exterminated, like this Zionist young
                fanatic above, are allowed to live!
        \_ Arafat is an ass, israel offers 40% of its territory and he still
        doesn't budge an inch. 3 prime ministers dealt w/ arrafat but arrafat
        just wants all of israel. palestinians just want to destroy israel.
        \_ Do you believe these lies you spread?
2000/10/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:19518 Activity:very high
10/18   I found the correlation between Middle East fighting and the motd:
        http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/14080.html
        (Summary: P4's are made in Israel, which might be bad news for Intel)
        \_ I've made the connection now. AMD is paying the Muslims to bomb
           the jews so that the Atlon will take over the x86 compatible
           market.
           \_ There is nothing illegal with this.
              \_ Yeah, and Al Capone was just a "business man".
                 \_ I'm just saying, the US has no jurisdiction in
                    parts of the Middle East.
                    \_ if amd is a us company, the us has laws that say
                       things like "You aren't allowed to break us laws
                       in other countries either"
                        \_ so much for my drug smuggling startup.
                        \_ But a non-US company can break US laws in other
                           countries, right?  If a US citizen is murdered in
                           another country by that country's citizen, US
                           has no jurisdiction over that.  Whoever bombed the
                           ship are supposedly non-US citizens and the bombing
                           happened in another country, so I think US should
                           have no jurisdiction over that either.
        \_ Just buy Checkpoint stocks.  Let God's chosen people earn money
           for you.
2000/10/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:19422 Activity:high
10/5    Taking Ethnic Studies and compiling a list of racial adage
        (e.g. Drunken Irish, Stingy Jew, Inscrutable Asian, etc). Thanks.
        \_ That's Lying, Backstabbing Jew to you, Mister.
           \_ How about Riceboy, Chinaman, Japs and nigger?  -- Asian
            \_ unclear on the concept aren't you?
               \_ No.  Please explain.
                \_ he is looking for 1 or two word racial sterotypes,
                   not racist names for different ethnicities.
        \_ Stingy scot, angry German, fat ugly rude stupid whiny nasal-
           voiced chubby-kneed-women polo-shirt-wearing tourist American,
           DAMN MONKEY NIP, heterosexual San Franciscan, polite New
           Yorker, greasy wop.  -John
        \_ Lazy mexican.
        \_ Kiasu Singaporean.
2000/8/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:18924 Activity:high
8/8     What's the rule in pronuciating Jewish names? For example, is
        Epstein pronouced as ep-stine or ep-steen? Is Feldsenstein
        pronouced as feldsen-stine or feldsen-steen?
        \_ MY NAME IS FRANKENSTEEN!
        \_ In original Yiddish, it's pronounced like English -stine or -shtine
           (the choice between the two depending on dialect/preference);
           however, many Americans with these names have long since forgotten
           what Yiddish is, and some will pronounce it as -steen as well.
           So use the former by default, unless you've heard the
           person in question pronounce it himself. AFAIK, the same goes
           for German surnames with the same suffix.   -alexf
           \_ thats because "yiddish" basically IS german.  aka
               "Hebrew with a german accent"
        \_ there are jews all over the world, speaking probably over 100
           languages, including chinese. to attempt to find consistency accross
           aall these languages' names is impossible.
           \_ there are jews all over the world but they are mostly two kinds
              left these days, and of those two the eastern european jew is
              the most prominent, especially in America.  Stop being such an
              ass.  -jewboy
        \_ Racist.  That's not funny.
           \_ http://www.icebox.com
           \_ SCHNELL!  JUDEN!
              \_ Yay!  Holocaust jokes!  Fucking idiot.
2000/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:17506 Activity:very high
02/13   Rest in peace, Charles Schultz, you dull repetitive do nothing
        lazy sloppy overpaid comic hack.  We love you!  You changed our
        lives!  Boo hoo!  sniff!  snuffle!  Snoopy is dead!
        \_ SCHULZ, dammit.  Charles *Schulz*.
               \_ I know the name of my God!  Fuck youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!  And
                  he wasn't some damned Jew with a damned Jew name!
        \_ Sorry, I forgot -- this is the motd.  We should all be creaming our
           jeans over a groundbreaking hilarious real-man's comic, like "User
           Friendly"!  (Think of the newly created blank space in comics pages
           all over America!  Maybe they'll drop "Classic Peanuts" and pick up
           "User Friendly"!  That would be S0 K-RAD, D00D!!!1!!!  We can show
           the heathens what idiots they are and get our S3KR1T 3L33T LAFFS,
           2!!!1!!)
                \_ User Friendly is one of the few comics worse than Peanuts.
                   \_ You haven't read After Y2K, have you.
                        \_ "one of".
        \_ Why waste your venom on Schulz when there are *so* many other waste-
           of-space comics in the newspaper, like "Spiderman"?  (Or "Garfield",
           or "Mary Worth", or "B.C.", or "Crock", or "The Lockhorns", or
           "Funky Winkerbean", or (dare I say the name) "Love Is ..."?)  There
           may have been a slump in "Peanuts" during the 90s (and even then,
           I'd say that the comic came back over the past few years), but on
           the whole, the man did an exceptionally good job at doing what he
           did for almost *fifty* years.
           \_ The last 35 were tree killing pap.
           \_ Mary Worth is great.  And how did you miss the worst comic ever,
              "Cathy".
              \_ why bother reading that crap, when soda has christine.
1999/10/25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:16764 Activity:nil
10/24   Help. I don't like my FOBONIC mother in law and she doesn't seem
        to like Jewish husband. Advice please.
1998/1/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:13543 Activity:high
1/21    US sponsors genocide of Cuba!
        \_ Sad but true.  What had Cuba done to warrant an embargo even
           worse than one given to Iraq?  So it has a communist regime,
           is that a crime?  What is this BS from US government that
           the embargo is meant to promote freedom of speech and crap
           like that?  What about freedom to live?
           \_ the embargo is the legacy of influential lobbyists
              funded by people who lost property when castro
              made cuba a communist state and they are not going
              to go away anytime soon, they are patient and
              are just waiting for castro to pass on.
        \_ AMERICA.  LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT, BUDDY. - danh
          \_ I think the embargo of Cuba is stupid and does no
             good, but the US is the only major nation that enforces
             the sanctions. They can get whatever they want from Canada,
             France or any of the other 200 countries that do not
             have restrictions on trade with Cuba. Any genocide
             is a result of Castro and the Communist government,
             not of the US embargo. this is unlike the sanctions
             against Iraq, which were supported by the West for a long
             time. This is no excuse for hussein's atrocities, but let's
             keep the facts straight. If you think the problems of the
             Cuban people are to be blamed on the US embargo,  then
             you have a serious misunderstanding of politics and economics.
            -fab@csua
             \_ Wrong.  USA punishes domestic and foreign companies that
                trade with Cuba.
                \_ this is only partially true. As far as I understand it,
                 the helms-Burton act has only been enforced against a
                 a small number of firms. While a lot of people are pissed,
                and justifiably so -H-B act is pretty silly, it has
                made no impact on the trade between cuba and foreign
                nations. the H-B act is an empty threat in the overwhelming
                number of cases. Ie, Jesse Helms is just one guy.
                One cranky Southern guy can't stop world trade.
                Finally, the US cannot punish firsm which do no business
                in Cuba. Another good example of what i am talking about is
                Jordan and Israel. Israel refuses to trade with Jordan,
                until recently. But trade still happens. All the goods
                are routed to Cyprus, a neutral country. as I understand it,
                that is how a lot of US/Cuba trade actually happens.
                Any foreign firm with US ties could set up dummy companies
                with no US ties, which is what happens. Of course, since
                cuba with its present economic system, produces little wealth,
                its probably not to profitable to try to often. The fact
                remains: any country that wanted to trade with Cuba, can.
                Cuba's poverty is not primarily the fault of the US embargo.
                I recommend removing the embargo so that fact will be
                totally clear. - fab@csua
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