| WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ | |
 http://csua.com/feed/ | |
| ||||||
| 12/25 |
| 2009/1/12-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52359 Activity:nil |
1/12 Is this an example of terrorism?
"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not
like you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure
would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's
Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid they would
say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant, put a
sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put commo
wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
'April Fool, motherfucker.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted.\
As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a Communist,
including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to camp with
ears to prove that they killed people."
\_ this is:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1111203/Protesters-clash-police-100-000-strong-London-Gaza-demo-descends-violence.html
http://tinyurl.com/a77k7l [dailymail]
\_ As much as the last administration tried to claim the
contrary, protest is not terrorism.
\_ it is, if it's done by saracens! |
| 2009/1/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52356 Activity:moderate |
1/11 Joe The Plumber: the media should be abolished
http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/01/joe-plumber-media-shouldnt-report-war.html
\_ Can you please just let this idiot go away already?
\_ I would, but the media won't. "Pajamas Media" hired him as a
"Gaza war correspondent," and he still gets FoxNews/CNN face time.
"Gaza war correspondent," and he still gets FoxNews/CNN face
time.
\_ Because you still pay attention to the idiot. |
| 2009/1/9-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52346 Activity:high |
1/9 What You Don't Know About Gaza:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html?em
\_ "As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the
Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian
population of the Gaza Strip."
Rubbish. Hamas, as the elected government, is responsible for the
welfare of the civilian population. Now, if you want to make the
case that Hamas is severely hampered in this by the Israelis,
that's a different thing.
\_ I thought Isreal does not recognize them as the legitimate
government, so refuses to negotiate with them.
\_ Israel has negotiated ceasefires with them before.
"The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is
potentially a war crime.... In contrast, there have been around a
dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers."
Firing rockets indiscriminately into a country _is_ targeting
civilians, no matter how unsuccessful the attacks are. You don't
get a by on war crimes just because your aim is bad.
"Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and
other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had
Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its
blockade of the Gaza Strip."
Or Hamas might have gotten its hands on more long range rockets
and shelled more civilians in Israel. Or the Easter Bunny and the
Mahdi might have arrived and opened a sushi restaurant. The latter
is more likely than Israeli negotiations stopping Hamas launching
rockets.
\_ What you don't know about Hamas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I
\_ How would I not know this? The US media is full of anti-Hamas
propaganda. Aren't they still officially a "terrorist"
organization, according to the Bush Administration?
\_ I would think so. What part of Hamas makes them NOT a
terrorist organization? I mean, they do commit acts of
terrorism and all.
\_ What is your definition of "terrorist organization"?
Are you the same guy above who states that Hamas is the
elected government of Gaza?
\_ Nooo.... they took over Gaza by force. Again, not seeing
how this makes them NOT a terrorist organization. A
terroist organization is an org that uses terrorism
to achive their aims. Hamas' "humanitarian" arm doesn't
really change that fact about them.
\_ What is "terrorism", by your definition?
\_ You have trouble using a dictionary or something?
Pretty much everyone, including the EU, agrees
Hamas engages in terrorism by any common
definition. Why don't you answer my question?
How is Hamas not a terrorist org? While were at
it What's YOUR definition of terrorism?
\_ I don't know what the definition is of
terrorism, which is why I avoid using the word.
I think it is amusing that you like to throw
around terms you can't even define.
\_ I think it's amusing that you don't know
how to read a dictionary. You can even
google for definitions now. Can you google?
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
"At present, there is no internationally
agreed definition of terrorism."
"The concept of terrorism is itself
controversial because it is often used
by states to delegitimize political
opponents, and thus legitimize the
state's own use of terror against
those opponents."
See, you learned something new today!
\_ "Common definitions of terrorism
refer only to those acts which are
intended to create fear (terror),
are perpetrated for an ideological
goal (as opposed to a lone attack),
and deliberately target or disregard
the safety of non-combatants.
Some definitions also include acts
of unlawful violence and war."
And yet, all the difinitions cover
Hamas. Again, what exactly is your
point? I mean, aside from having
your own little pedanticness
championship.
\_ My point is that calling someone
a "terrorist" really doesn't do
anything to describe them and in
fact is a way of avoiding
discussion, rather than actually
having one. The point of having a
dicussion is to communicate,
having one. The point of
communication is to communicate,
right? Unless you are just typing
to make yourself feel good, in
which case, carry on Sir!
which case, carry on Sir! Your
definition as stated above makes
many US military commanders
"terrorists" including whoever
ordered the firebombing of Tokyo,
so I personally find it
unsatisfactory, though perhaps
this is fine with you. Regarding
Hamas specifically, there is the
question as to whether they
qualify as a "State Actor" or not,
which I do not have the answer to.
Who decides what is a legitimate
government or not? Do you?
\_ So you didn't watch the video of them killing other
palestinians for singing at a wedding?
\_ You know the EU designates them as such as well, right?
\_ So you believe that the EU is the final authority in the
topic of terrorism?
\_ What a moron. When you build and launch rockets from a civilian
school, you're responsible
http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com/2009/01/images-they-show.html |
| 2009/1/7-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52332 Activity:low 57%like:52328 |
1/6 Sanjay Gupta? Really? --> New surgeon general of USA
\_ But inside he is as white as KKK's white satins sheets.
\- a friend of mine was in a lot of classes with him
in high school. apparently he was kind of a sociopath,
but evidently sociopaths make good neurosurgeons.
it's too bad he didnt pick AGAWNDE.
\_ Isn't everyone in high school kind of a sociopath?
\_ Only the people worth knowing.
\_ Indians have a core competency (+2) in Medicine.
\_ well they sure can't code or sink pirates
\_ The Danes have +2 hitpoint in axe and in bezerk mode.
\_ +5 to hp and Str if we're drinking Akvaavit.
\_ The Asians have +1 intellect and -4 in shield
\_ Only if you mean getting degrees. In my experience they aren't
necessarily good doctors. At least clinicians. Surgeons might
be something else entirely. Not enough experience to say.
\_ wrong stereotype. you're thinking of asians.
\_ My Indian GP rules. --white guy
\_ i pick white doctors.
\_ I've had best experiences, by far, with Jewish doctors
over Indian, Asian, Arab, African, Russian, Armenian,
or caucasian, although I had a really good Italian
neurologist. Lots of Asian doctors are good, too, but only
if they are born in the US, especially the women. I had a
mysterious health ailment that required me to visit many,
many doctors of many specialties and, if I didn't have a
referral, I started going to the Jewish specialists (and
Cedars Sinai hospital). It was a Jewish gastroenterologist
who finally diagnosed and cured me. My pediatrician growing
up was also Jewish and overall I found the Jewish doctors
don't really know more or less, but have a better bedside
manner and were more likely to actually to have a
conversation and *listen* to me, which aided diagnosis.
\_ Why do you hate Israel? |
| 2009/1/5-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52315 Activity:kinda low |
1/5 About half a block's worth of protesters just showed up at the Fed
Bldg in SF demanding Israel out of Gaza. Not a bad showing, given
the cold and the sprinkling rain. --erikred
\_ They're too stupid to stay out of the rain. Just like they're too
stupid to understand what's going on in Gaza.
\_ The rain works to their benefit. "Anti-Israel protesters
demonstrated outside Fed Bldg amid chilly rain" vs. "Anti-Israel
protester demonstrated outside Fed Bldg in cozy sunny weather."
\_ What is going on in Gaza that this war/bombing thing will solve?
Evidently those rockets keep coming. Should they just firebomb
them all into oblivion? They should have wiped them out back in
the sixties. Some of these guys will never accept the loss of
lands to "the Zionist enemy" so they will always have these
rockets etc. Maybe they could come up with some sort of giant
laser weapon to instantly blow away the source of a rocket
rockets etc.
\_ I really doubt Israel can defeat the Palestinian demographic
birthrate bomb. They should surrender now.
\_ Israel won the 7 day war.... It's not how big the military,
it's how good it is.
\_ He's talking about then citizen birthrate. See "those
scary brown people are going to outreproduce us!" for
more info.
\_ They already did. It's not about whether they're scary,
but this is lowering everybody's standard of living.
It's happening all over the world.
\_ call it revenge for centures of economic oprression
and uncle toms.
\_ Yes let's sink the boat we're all in for revenge
against people who are dead.
Who gives a shit? Have more kids, struggle like rats
to get that Black Friday sale item.
\_ http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/L/7/3/Chosen-People.jpg
\_ http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/chosenness-and-its-enemies-13662
\_ the one million plus people crammed into the west bank are going
to overflow into Israel eventually. might as well get used to it.
I salute the military might of Israel but the math says they're
screwed.
\_ now you know why "no birth control" and "every
sperm is sacred" are key tenets in fightin' faiths
\_ The West Bank is not really that crowded, but Gaza sure as
hell is. |
| 2008/9/26-10/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:51315 Activity:nil |
9/26 The Settlers in Israel are taking on their own government:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/26/africa/26settlers.php
\_ But do they have wood for sheep? |
| 2008/9/14-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:51167 Activity:low |
9/14 Good-bye, Britain:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts
given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.
\_ Just like how the Jewish courts run there too? At least they
stooped so low as to have non-judges presid and make judgements for
kangaroo courts broadcast on television like here.
\_ Ummm... TV courts aren't leagally binding beyond the contract
you sign when you go on. That's a huge difference. -!pp
\_ "Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as
arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals
are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute
agree to give it the power to rule on their case."
It's the same thing. Civil case. "Law" means under contract
law. You go to agree to arbitraion and you agree to the
results, you are now under contract. This is nothing
but fear mongering and racism.
\_ yea, what he said. -ppp
\_ Sharia tends to be a bit more murdery and misogynist, don't you
think? |
| 2008/9/10-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:51126 Activity:nil |
9/10 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/16/mccain-aid-israel John McCain want's to stop all aid to Israel. (Ok, no he doesn't, but it's proof that John McCain is willing to say any old shit he thinks sounds good without actually worrying about if what he says is reasonable.) \_ Why do we do this anyway? Send many billions to both Israel and Egypt. Who wants to try defending that? \_ It is cheaper than a war in the ME. |
| 2008/6/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50243 Activity:nil |
6/12 If Gaddafi doesn't like him, he must be good:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7450000.stm
\_ Gaddafi is late, Obama already retracted that.
\_ With Gaddafi, I don't think it matters much. |
| 12/25 |
| 2008/6/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50135 Activity:nil |
6/3 Zombie at "Israel in the Gardens 2008"
http://www.zombietime.com/israel_in_the_gardens_2008/Israel
Looks like it was a nice festival. Maybe I should go next year.
\_ "All land is holy, all people are chosen" is anti-semetic? This
guy is hillarious.
\_ I see keffiyehs!
\_ It's just a scarf, it doesn't mean anything! -JAS guy #1 fan |
| 2008/6/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50123 Activity:nil |
6/2 Jimmy Carter: For CHANGE!!!!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=492_1212423029 |
| 2008/5/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:50100 Activity:nil |
5/30 "The kaffiyeh has emerged as a symbol of resistance against oppression
worldwide"
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/433754
IT'S JUST A SCARF!1!!! BLUGGA AUGH WHUMPA!!11!
\_ It's just a scarf. You are just an idiot. |
| 2008/4/21-5/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49791 Activity:kinda low |
4/19 Israel's dilemma
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/israel
\_ I'm sympathetic to Isreal's plight, but that's a horrid fairly one
sided article.
\_ In which ways is it one-sided?
\_ On who's side is it?
\_ Carter has already done more for peace in the Middle East in two
weeks than Bush has in two terms in office:
http://www.csua.org/u/lbm (NYT)
\_ It's hard to argue with your assertion, but the accomplishment
cited here has already been contradicted:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359661.stm
\_ I totally agree, Bush has really screwed things up, but he can't
hold a candle to Carter.
\_ You're nuts. The kind of peace where Israel pulls back to the
1967 borders and gives 10 years for Hamas to build up in exchange
for nothing? It's suicidal. Is this a troll?
\_ Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Automatically,
without question. Oddly enough, I think that you are more
likely to come to peace with someone you are negotiating with
than someone you are shooting at. I don't think for a second
that Israel will (or should) agree to all of Hamas' terms,
but I do think that if they don't start talking, there will
never be peace.
\_ Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
Automatically, without question. Oddly enough, I think that
you are more likely to come to peace with someone you are
negotiating with than someone you are shooting at. I don't
think for a second that Israel will (or should) agree to all
of Hamas' terms, but I do think that if they don't start
talking, there will never be peace.
\_ Do you have any idea what Hamas is talking about or any
knowledge of the history of the region, Hamas, or anything
else going on? Have you read the Hamas charter? No.
Here: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
When Hamas stops *firing rockets in Israel almost every
day!* there might be something to talk about. Until that
time they are at war with Israel who they don't even
acknowledge the legitimate existence of and have made very
clear very loudly their only goal is Israel's destruction.
There is no compromising with someone whose only reason
for being is your death. You can't be a "little bit" dead.
Maybe you're not a troll, just naive.
\_ You don't have to negotiate for peace with your friends,
only those you are at war with. You seem to forget this
basic fact. History is full of examples of hostile
neighbors full of angry rhetoric eventually getting
tired of fighting and then making peace. Why are these
two any different?
\_ Well, one side obviously isn't tired of it yet, for
one thing.
\_ Very uplifting. Now go read some real history. Far
more conflicts have been resolved with the Rome vs.
Carthage model than the "We got tired of killing
your civilians with daily rocket attacks from our
side of the border, we're going to give up our holy
quest to kill you all and throw a tea and crumpets
party for you, our new friends and neighbors, peace
be unto you, brothers!" Negotiated peace only comes
when at least one side has been defeated and is
unwilling or unable to continue fighting. Until
then there is nothing to talk about.
\_ Who lost in the Catholic vs. Protestant wars in
Northern Ireland?
\_ You mean the modern version with the IRA, bombs
etc? Everyone lost. The English were
unwilling to apply the force required to win
a military victory, didn't want or consider
a heart and minds conversion, and both sides
lost a number of people for no real purpose.
This has exactly what to do with trying to
talk with psychotics like Hamas? Nothing.
Go read Hamas' charter and come back if you're
serious about discussing this further.
\_ Hamas is no nuttier than the Real IRA.
\_ That's an opinion. Factually incorrect,
but no one can stop you from believing
things that aren't true. Have at it.
The "Real IRA" stopped blowing things up
after the English left them alone. When
Israel steps back, Hamas just moves
closer so they can fire rockets further
into Israel. If it was San Francisco
getting shelled every day (or whatever
town you live in), you'd be screaming
the loudest how "We have to kill them
all and why hasn't the incompetent BUSH
admin stopped the bad guys yet?!"
\_ Israel has never, ever stepped back.
\_ The Real IRA has not given up and
in fact, continues to operate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA
You certainly have strong opinions for
one so lightly informed.
\_ Did you read your own link? The
so called Real IRA is dead. There
is more Real Crime in LA every
day than these goofballs have
managed since their founding in 97.
\_ Which side is unwilling to negotiate?
http://www.csua.org/u/lch (Yahoo News)
\_ We've seen this one before. "We would
like to kill you, would you please open
the gate?"
\_ Wow, you are incredibly naive. "We need
6 months to rearm for the next round of
attacks. We'll stop attacking you for
those 6 months if you let us bring in
more weapons". You can't possibly be
this dumb. Thus, I label you: troll.
You still clearly haven't read the Hamas
charter, either. You won't make it more
than a few paragraphs in before your
eyes glaze at the insanity and seething
hatred.
\_ I read about half of it. I will finish
the rest later. It is full of a bunch
of religious mumbo-jumbo.
of religious mumbo-jumbo. Unlike you,
I have actually been to Jerusalem, the
West Bank and Gaza, so it is kind of
amusing that you bounce back and forth
between calling me ignorant and a
troll. Perhaps I am as informed as you
and just disagree.
\_ I'm stunned that you think putting
a maple leaf on your hawaiian
tshirt during your weekend
excursion to the region makes you
an expert. You would have been
better off if you said you saw
something on the history channel.
\_ I saw it on the History Channel |
| 2008/4/16-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49763 Activity:nil |
4/16 Netanyahu says 9/11 terror attacks good for Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975574.html
\_ You mean they weren't? |
| 2008/3/29-4/6 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49609 Activity:nil |
3/28 The Hamas charter. Not quite the Declaration of Independence....
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html |
| 2008/3/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49426 Activity:low |
3/11 What's the difference between the word "Jew" and "Jewish"?
\_ A Jew is a Jewish person. Jew is a noun, Jewish is an adjective.
Like, duh.
\_ Interestingly, the word "Jew" by itself is far more likely to
be used by anti-Semites than the word "Jewish." Google the word
"Jew" and read their disclaimer for a more involved explanation. |
| 2008/2/29-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49305 Activity:nil 97%like:49298 |
2/28 The lying, despicable campaign to turn Jews against Obama
http://preview.tinyurl.com/38zy54 (tpm)
\_ Man, I keep misreading this as:
'The lying, despicable campaign of the Jews against Obama'
\_ I read the first 10 paragraphs or so before I couldn't take it
anymore. This opinion piece is just stupid and fact free.
\_ So you think that attempting to Godwin Obama is legit?
\_ No one is Godwining Obama. Or if they are this 'article'
certainly doesn't make a strong case for it. The flip side
of the Godwin thing is that you're not being Godwinned if the
charges are true, which remains to be seen in Obama's case,
since he's a good speaker but doesn't say much.
\_ I see. So you're in bed with the smear tactics. Cool,
got it.
\_ That line doesn't even make sense. Shessh. -!pp
\_ Classic case of reading what you want to read, instead
of reading what was said. Your Rhetoric 1A grade to
date is "F," but you still have time to pull it up to a
"C" if you work at it and come to office hours every
week. -pp
\_ This really is a poorly written article. It's making a mountain of
a molehill (Tim Russert) who was already making a molehill of a
pebble (Farrakhan). It's like cascading stupidity.
\- i thought it was a decent article. it is about more than
just the tim russert issue. it might have been nice to have
a few more facts about how "marginal" farrakhan is, but i can
understand why he didnt get into it ... i think most of his
audience would have been willing to accept farrakhan = nutjob
and you dont need to do much more than draw the analogy to an
endorsement from David Duke. |
| 2008/2/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49298 Activity:nil 97%like:49305 |
2/28 The lying, despicable campaign to turn Jews against Obama
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/29/the_lying_despicable_campaign |
| 2008/2/27-3/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49273 Activity:nil |
2/27 64% of Israelis support direct talks with Hamas government
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958473.html
\_ I tought Hamas were supposed to be terrorists?
\_ I thought Hamas were supposed to be terrorists?
\_ They are. They're still lobbing rockets over the border and
slipping suicide bombers in every so often. About the only
good thing about them is how many PLO/Fatah thugs they killed
when they took over Gaza.
\_ Isreal negotiates with terrorists now? |
| 2008/2/27-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49272 Activity:nil |
2/27 Tennessee GOP slimes Obama for being a Jew-hater, or supported by
Jew-haters, or....something. Expect to see a lot, lot more of this.
http://www.tngop.org/wordpress/?p=113
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/tennessee_gop_smears_obama_wit.php |
| 2008/1/29-2/2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49032 Activity:low |
1/28 Fun Fact: Each Gaza resident requires 1/2 ton of flour per day to
survive!
http://sandbox.blog-city.com/gaza_buried_in_flour.htm
\_ If they eat so much, they must be full of shit.
\_ still waiting for jblack to say something about Jewish
controlled liberal media.
\_ I haven't seen a Freeper post in months, so I suspect that
jblack has given up on us.
\_ 680,000 pounds = 340 tons. Simple error.
\_ I think it was done on purpose.
\_ why, because a 75% reduction in food availability wouldn't
be dramatic enough? It's an error. -tom
\_ Sure it's an error, but it didn't attain head-slapping
status until the guys at the Boston Globe put the 99%
on there. At which point someone should have noticed. -op |
| 2008/1/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48957 Activity:nil |
1/6 They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions
Confront Israel's Lobby
http://tinyurl.com/3cxpte |
| 2007/11/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48517 Activity:nil |
11/1 West Bank belongs to Israel!!! |
| 2007/11/1-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48514 Activity:moderate |
11/1 Gaza. West Bank. Good bye.
\_ yet another example of failed colonization (YES colonization,
where the government actually encouraged Israeli settlers to
move into the newly acquired land after 1967).
\_ But colonization is one of the best ways to hold territory.
I read it in The Prince, so it has to be true.
\_ What. Are you. Talking about.
\_ No. Good riddens. I totally support Israel's unilateral
disengagement plan. Instead of pouring countless resources
into military and security outposts in and out of Arab land
now can relax and watch the Arabs kill each other from afar.
As for all those the Arab Qassam rockets that are being fired
into Israel, well, better that than precision suicide bombers
on the homeland.
\_ Does this mean Isreal is finally going to abandon all the
\_ Does this mean Israel is finally going to abandon all the
settlements deep in Palestinian territory? If so, this is
the best news for the region in 20 years.
\_ If they do, do you expect the Palestinians to stop lobbing
rockets into Israel? If they continue firing rockets, what
do you think Israel should do about it?
\_ They're going to bomb the hell out of them. -!pp
\_ They are lobbing rockets into Israel from the West Bank? |
| 2007/10/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48426 Activity:moderate |
10/24 new OINK tracker up
http://oink.on.nimp.org/6969
\_ This is basically an animated goatse that fucks your browser.
At the very least, don't try this link at work. -niloc
\_ This is basically an animated, loud goatse that fucks your
browser. It has nothing to do with OINK. -niloc
\_ thanks niloc really appreciate your help. -motd spam hater
\_ maybe next time you can post a link to a 0-day virus'd page. tx. |
| 2007/10/21-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48404 Activity:low 76%like:48396 |
10/19 People say "jew-lery" and "re-lator" instead of
jewelry and realtor. Are these proper pronunciations?
\_ I don't think so.
\_ Racist!
\_ So you think "realtor" and "relator" should sound the same?
-- PP, Chinese
\_ I have never heard anyone sal jelery. Re-lator is because
Realtor (tm!) is a stupid fucking made up word that would never
be an english word if someone hadn't made it up. The l to t
transision is just fucked up.
\_ hello bitter housing guy! How's your rent?
\_ Not bitter housing guy, just bitter abuse of the english
language guy.
\_ Thats totally NUKULAR!
\_ Isn't this an accepted pronunciation in one of the
dictionaries?
\_ Only if you're a fan of Jimmy Carter.
\_ Or Dubya. Is this just a Southern thang?
\_ Dunno but JC was way ahead of Dubya on the Nukular thing |
| 2007/10/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48356 Activity:very high |
10/17 Watson on black people
http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece
\_ Even if there is a genetic difference in intelligence
between races, so what if there is? Every *individual*
should still be afforded the same opportunity and not
face systematic discrimination. Further, even if it
is true that there is a measureable difference it doesn't
justify racism. It could easily turn out that Chinese
or Jews test out smarter than whites: does that give
them the right to be the "master race"?
\_ Yes. We already control most of the media -jewish
\_ The theory of evolution says the master race should proliferate
and the proponents of evolution will claim that it is
completely reversed right now (blacks/latinos have more
~6 kids, whites have ~1.6 kids). Thus, the proponents will
favor furthering evolution with racism.
~6 kids, whites have ~1.6 kids). Thus, proponents of
evolution will most likely favor evolution with racism.
\_ No, evolution says proliferation is a natural advantage.
Having more kids survive shows that you're the master race.
\_ Well then, I need to bow down to my INNNNDIAN friend
at 7-11 because apparently, he's the MASTER RACE.
\_ And Aryan to boot!
\_ No, we're not 'the master race'. That is a Nazi thing. But
the sooner you come to accept that we are God's Chosen People,
the happier you'll be.
\_ "master race" not "masturbator race"
\_ My brother converted from Catholicism to Judaism. We're
genetically Scandinavian. Which Chosen People is he?
\_ I hope a hot Jewish female with enormous breasts was
involved. Did he convert for marriage purposes?
\_ If he married a Jewish girl, his kids are Jewish. There
is no hope for him directly.
\_ You haven't answered the question.
\_ There's only one "God's Chosen People".
\_ Whoa! You're going go for the genetic purity of
the people of Yahweh argument? You're reducing the
number of God's Chosen People to a rough score,
my friend, and unless you've got a 3,000 year
pedigree, it doesn't include you.
\_ Uh no, see above, "If he married a Jewish
girl, his kids are Jewish". We're good to go
on the Chosen People thing.
\_ What's your Halachic source for this, Rabbi?
\_ The motd of course. What more do I need?
\_ HAHAHAHAHA.
\_ It's only nutty elitism that values IQ more than (say) being a
nice person, or having skill at a trade. Being a plumber often
pays better than an engineer/doctor/lawyer (and can't be
outsourced), yet vocational training has been systematically
eliminated in schools in favor of forcing every high school to be
college prep. Still, his comment addressing foreign policy to
black nations could be accurate or could be wrong.
\_ name the plumber that gets paid more than an engineer, doc,
or lawyer. and no, pro-bono lawyering doesn't count. the
carpenter i talked to yesterday was bitching about getting
$25/hr. he could have got $33/hr but the work wouldn't be
as consistent at another place.
\_ I had a plumber come out to my place last week and he
charges $80/hr for his services. He works for himself,
so yeah, he has overhead, but he probably keeps most
of that. O'Grady plumbing, they do good work:
http://www.ogradyplumbing.com
\_ He's not getting paid $80/hr x 8hr x 5days x 50weeks.
His yearly income is going to be lower than the 100k
engineer, the 200k doctor or the 400k lawyer. If he
makes 50k hes lucky. His benefit is being his own
boss, not the income. He's not pulling down 160k.
\_ I think you greatly underestimate what contractors
make. True, the journeyman isn't making that
much money. However, the foremen and the owners
make plenty of money. I know a lot of
tradespeople and they do very well. $160K is
very possible and guys with a lot of business
probably do better than that. I know a guy who
installs fire sprinklers. He's been doing it 8
years and he joined the union. He works for a
big company that installs fire systems in
commercial buildings. He makes $85K per year and
he doesn't even have a degree. In another so many
years he'll be well over $100K - about what an
engineer makes - and that's working for someone else.
He learned his vocation through 4 years in the
Navy. I think vocational training is much
neglected. Skilled tradespeople (especially in a
niche like wrought iron or cabinetry or whatever)
make a lot of money. The undocumented Mexican
guy is making $25/hour. A legal, clean-cut
caucasian or Asian guy makes twice that and also
has the Mexican guy work for him because he can
line up work for the other guy who doesn't even
speak English. If you own a house you'd know how
much you pay to have work done and it isn't cheap.
You'd also know that a lot of the better guys
turn work away because they have so much of it.
\_ If you are paying the undocumented Mexican
$25/hr, you are getting ripped off.
\_ Not really. He's probably getting $15 from
the guy who hired him and that guy is
then making $10 in profit/overhead. Do
something like get your hardwood floors
refinished or have some tile installed
(both take some skill and floors are hard
work). Do you think the guy is going to do it
for $8/hour? Not if he's any good he's not,
undocumented or not.
\_ So then you are paying $15 to the guy and
$10 to his boss. Yes, this makes sense.
But you can just hire the guy yourself,
if you speak even high school Spanish.
\_ Actually, I suspect he makes more than that,
since he has people working for him. But at
that point, he is really "running a small
business" not just "being a plumber."
\_ What do you think doctors, lawyers,
civil engineers, psychologists, architects,
optometrists, dentists, and accountants who are
making money are doing? They setup a small
business for themselves. With some luck and
hard work their 'company' makes it. When a
lawyer or doctor makes 'partner' what are
they doing? Contractors are the same. They
start out working for someone else, they
hone their craft, and they strike out on
their own - maybe with employees and maybe not.
A lot of them start with themselves and some
daylaborers they had good experiences with.
So it really is "just being a plumber" in
that sense - at least at first. There's not a
lot of money at first, but neither is there in
being a medical student and resident. I think the
trades are greatly unappreciated career choices.
Did you ever see "The Money Pit?" They
lampoon how much contractors make (supposedly a
lot) as the contractor drives a Corvette and asks
the attorney client over the phone before he
considers starting work:
"How much money do you make?"
"How much do *you* make?"
(we can't hear the contractor's reply)
"Really!"
I have an acquaintance who is a contractor
and makes a good living (enough to have a
house and 3 kids w/o his wife working). We
talked about this once and he told me:
"Roofers drive Jaguars".
\_ I think we are in agreement here.
\_ Lawyers hardly make $400k. I think the average
salary for a lawyer is something like $85k.
HLS yes, Florida State, n
HLS yes, Florida State, no.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_lawyer_earn
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm
\_ Watson is an ass and has been for decades. -tom
\_ Which is how tom responds to any conclusion he doesn't like.
\_ Doesn't change the fact that Watson's an ass and has been for
decades. -!tom
\_ Gotta agree with tom's fans here. Watson is a complete
ass. What's the name of that female who did a lot of the
original DNA work with Watson & Crick but didn't share
in the Nobel?
\_ Is that Watson's fault or the Nobel nominating/awarding
system?
\_ probably a little bit of everyone. there was
a movie on the subject i think, never saw it.
\_ Yep. Watson has been, and continues to be, a bad person.
\- RFRANKLIN was dead when they won the Nobel.
So the credit issue may be valid, but the
Nobel one is not. The Double Helix is a pretty
fast read. He comes across as a medicore pud.
(he goes on about how RFRANKLIN was a shabby dresser
and all kinds of crazy things). --psb
\_ BTW, note the difference between this and
tom's "he's and ass and always has been, take it
from me."
\_ Sure, the Nobel committee makes their own rules,
that's fine. But, Watson had the choice not too
screw over Franklin. He made the personal choice
to screw her over, and he's a bad person for that
and for several other poor choices in his life. |
| 2007/10/15-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48318 Activity:kinda low |
10/15 Gotta love it when liars (CAIR) are exposed:
http://csua.org/u/jqe
\_ Links to Little Green Footballs, promoting paranoia and anti-
Islamic sentiment so you don't have to.
\_ The link has a scan of a check to CAIR, and quoting a statement
from CAIR denying it. Do you claim that they're faking it?
\_ No, I object to you posting partisan links without posting
the full URL or, barring that, identifying the source. I'm not
saying that no one should read Freeper or LGF or WashTimes or
Townhall, I'm just saying that you should give people an
opportunity to know what the source is before they click the
link. I'd do it before I sent you to Media Matters or MoveOn
or even the New York Times.
\_ I only shortened to the link because it was over 80
columns. It's not a porn site.
\_ Don't be disingenuous. It takes less than four
seconds to write a useful descriptive comment. -dans,!PP
\_ So anyway, is Cair lying or not? -someone else
\_ So anyway, is op being disingenuous or not?
\_ I neither know nor care. Were you failing to
make a point or just following in the OP's proud
disingenuous footsteps? -dans
\_ Funny. I see it the exact opposite way. I
don't care if the OP is disingenous or not
because it doesn't matter. It matters a lot
more when a monied lobbying group lies. That
is what I care about. They either did or did
not. Which is it? -!op
\_ Dunno about dans, but for me the issue isn't
the pristine integrity of the org, rather
the good that they do.
\_ My thinking tends to be similar, though
for different reasons. My working
assumption is that virtually all
politicians and/or political
organizations are, to some extent,
dirty or corrupt. Want to take CAIR to
task? More power to you, but don't
discriminate. Take every dirty
organization/politician, regardless of
political ideology, to task. -dans
\_ I'm opposed to all dirty orgs. The
op posted a link about this particular
one so that is the topic. Did they or
did they not lie? And as far as the
'good' that CAIR does, I'd be most
impressed to see a list of their
positive accomplishments for this
country. Given their foreign cash
sources, past statements, and ties
to anti-American foreign orgs I don't
think the plus column for CAIR is
very long.
\_ If you're opposed to all dirty
orgs, who do you like, then?
\_ Pet rescue. Money for children
of vets killed/injured in war
to go to college. Children's
reading book donation programs.
A few others. CAIR doesn't
make the list of 'good' orgs by
any measure. There are *no*
good political orgs I'm aware
of. I'm surprised you couldn't
think of a clean non-profit org.
\_ The Catholic Church
\_ Mother Teresa: corrupt,
malignant dwarf. -Hitchens
\_ Re: The Holocaust: oops.
But, no, really the Pope has
a direct line to God who is
infallible.
Re: Widespread sexual abuse
of children at the hands of
priests: Oops. We'll just
sweep this under the rug
because it would really suck
if people sued us. -dans |
| 2007/9/12-14 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:48036 Activity:high |
9/12 Obama: strong backer of Israel.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/09/11/post_69.html
\- BTW, Mearshimer and Walt are two quite well regarded
people in the International Relations fields. They are
"standard" in the grad IR curriculum. It would be
like say Susan Graham and Jeffrey Ullman weighing in on
compliers ... ok neither are Donald Knuth, and regular
people dont know who they are, but they are top in the
field. Walt did his PhD at Berkeley under Kenneth Waltz
[who would be like Knuth, or John McCarthy in the earlier
analogy]. Anyway, just pointing out these arent two randoms
or fringe fruitcakes ... like that dood Dershowitz went
after.
\_ I thought blanks and jews hate each other.
\_ Who told you that, Rush Limbaugh?
\_ Probably not that big a deal in recent years but the further
you go back, you more true it is. I'm sorry if you're unaware
of your own nation's history to such a degree you think only
Rush Limbaugh might know the ugly truth. --sad for you
\_ You mean during the Civil Rights movement when Blacks
and Jews worked hand in hand, literally, to help stop
segregation? Or do you mean further back? What
specifically are you talking about?
"From the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement,
Blacks and Jews marched arm-in-arm. In 1909, W.E.B.
Dubois, Julius Rosenthal, Lillian Wald, Rabbi Emil G.
Hirsch, Stephen Wise and Henry Malkewitz formed the
National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People (NAACP). One year later other prominent Jewish and
Black leaders created the Urban League. Julius Rosenwald
and Booker T. Washington worked together in 1912 to
improve the educational system for Blacks in the South."
http://www.csua.org/u/ji7
\_ No, I mean pre-Civil Rights when jews from Europe
were coming to the US to avoid being slaughtered in
European pogroms. The fact that there are a few well
known people who worked together at the time does not
change the fact that the average black and the average
jew hated each other. They were competing for jobs,
housing, etc. Today you won't find many jews and
blacks living in the same areas so distance makes the
heart grow fonder. Each has other concerns in the
modern era so the typical jew/black-on-the-street has
no special animosity towards the other. If you're
either black or jewish, ask your grandparents how they
feel about the other.
\_ You are misinformed about pre-Civil Rights history,
both in terms of race relations and overlap of
employment seeking. Read books like Low Life by
Luc Sante for more perspective.
\_ Most likely this perception of animosity between Jews
and blacks stems from anti-semitic rhetoric from Elijah
Muhammed and Louis Farrakhan, not to mention choice
mis-steps from the good Reverend, quoted below.
mis-steps from the good Reverend, quoted below. -!pp
\_ And don't forget about Professor Griff.
\_ Still waiting for a reply that shows knowledge about
my "nation's history." I assume I will never get it,
nor the mea culpa I deserve.
\_ Are you the same moron who thought GWB was
the principal person behind the PATRIOT Act?
Look at the post 3 posts up or the one below.
Or try STFW your damn self.
\_ Just like I thought, you haven't the foggiest
clue what you are talking about. Even funnier,
you think "Professor Griff" is history. Read
a history book some time, before you make
a fool of yourself again.
a fool of yourself again. Hint: the civil
rights movement started quite a bit *before*
Elijah Muhammed, contradicting your "further
back" claim. Furthermore, the overwhelming
majority of Blacks are Christian, not Muslim.
\_ The Elijah Muhammed comment was from a
different poster, not the one telling you
to STFW. -!pp
\_ Jesse Jackson = Christian. It doesn't
matter either way. The point is that in the
recent past, relatively high-profile blacks
have made some very anti-Jewish statements
and even though Prof. Griff may not be a
historical figure in your opinion, what is
significant is the lack of backlash these
high profile blacks received within the
black community. Jesse Jackson was more
than one remark and yet he is still the de
facto Emperor of Black People. STFW.
Seriously. I'm not doing anymore of your
fucking homework.
\_ No, your point was that blacks and jews
hate each other. This is an over-
generalization. -!pp
\_ I didn't make the statement that
blacks and jews hate each other.
blacks and jews hate each other. I'm
just pointing out that it's not that
far-fetched to believe this is the
case and that you didn't need Rush
Limbaugh to reach the conclusion.
-pp, but not pppppp
\_ Yep, thanks. Also, the idea that
blacks "hate" Jews more than they
"hate" other whites, is quite
frankly, laughable. -pp
\_ Fine. Live in ignorance. I can't
make you STFW and I really don't
care if you feel like you won
some sort of stupid Internet
debate.
\_ Are you taking your ball and
going home, too?
\_ Jesse Jackson. Hymietown.
\_ Because of course, Jesse Jackson speaks for all blacks
in America. And one remark is proof of "hate."
\_ Could it be because Jews dominated the slave trade?
\_ He told my dad he speaks for all black people...
\_ Does he plan on bombing them?
\_ "Brzezinski praised Obama for offering a "new face, a new sense of
direction, a new definition of America's role in the world,"
giving the junior senator from Illinois a strong boost of
credibility in the foreign policy department."
Yikes! An endorsement from the author of the "fund the Mujahadeen in
Afghanistan" policy is mixed blessing! |
| 2007/9/10 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:47970 Activity:nil |
9/10 White power!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Israel-Neo-Nazis.html
\_ '"The tragic irony in this is that they would have been chosen for
annihilation by the Nazis they strive to emulate," the ADL said.'
Indeed. |
| 2007/9/9-10 [Science/Biology, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:47959 Activity:nil |
9/8 Are Jews really smarter due to selective gene pool,
environmental pressures, and other factors? Find out here:
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html
\_ Racist!!! All men are equal!!!
\_ Agreed. Damn race-based admission preferences.
\_ This is all nonsense. Everyone who really knows whats going on
in the world knows Jews are superior due to a thousand generations
of ZOGian breeding techniques. How else would we run the world,
control the US Govt, the US media, all the banks, and have the
finest piece of oil rich and fertile land in the entire middle
east? We even set you up the bomb and got you to attack Iraq,
help us oppress the entirely innocent and peace loving Palestinian
peoples, we control 4 of the 5 permanent security council seats
at the UN, constantly issue calls from the UN human rights
commission against our enemies, and we wrote all your christmas
songs. The Truth Is Out There!
\_ Which 4 of the 5 seats? |
| 2007/9/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:47909 Activity:nil |
9/5 http://www.csua.org/u/jge GOP Presidential strategy becomes clear. |
| 2007/6/16 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46982 Activity:nil |
6/16 Jew victim of racism
http://www.csua.org/u/ixx |
| 2007/6/15-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46968 Activity:nil |
6/15 "A witness, Jihad Abu Ayad, said men were killed in front of their
wives and children."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/14/world/main2928812.shtml |
| 2007/6/14-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46949 Activity:kinda low |
6/14 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/washington/14diplo.html Hamas routing larger Fatah security forces, may take over Gaza territory from Palestian unity government. Fear is that Gaza will become a "full terrorist state". Abbas to dissolve unity government, call for new elections, buying undetermined amount of time where Hamas is not officially in power. \_ Hamas is won the election fair and square. It is Abbas, USA, Israel and other nations who really need to get over the fact that Hamas won. \_ Does "getting over the fact that Hamas won" imply that we should resume paying them 100s of millions of dollars? 'Cause, you know, I think it would be pretty dumb to fund their war against Israel. \_ If "democracy in Middle East" is something we are preaching, then, we should stick with it. We've toppled democratatically elected government in the past (Iran, Guatamola, Chili), none of them turned out to be too well. Further, we should of given Hamas a chance. Many political groups use their radical rhetric to win power. Many of them, once the responsibility of running a country cast upon them, they become a lot more reponsible. If you have any clue, you would know that Isareli's biggest problem is not some strong state which seek for its destruction, rather, anarchy and weak governments which have little controls over their radical elements. Unfortuantely, neither Israeli government nor USA seems to understand that; each military incursion only weakens PLO/Lebonese governments even further. \_ And executions of their political opposition in the street is really democratic. But you're right, let's just move on and get over it and send more money to their Swiss bank accounts and to fund their terrorism against Israel and now their own people. You're on message, troll. \_ After decades of undermining the PLA, blowing up its buildings, and assassinating its leaders, Isreal is shocked, just shocked to watch the government collapse. You reap what you sow. \_ attack on Israel per se is not "terrorism." Some of Israeli tactics are not exactly abeit by IRC/UN standard neither. The truth is, we don't know how Hamas is going to react if Hamas actually had a chance to run a government. My feeling is that they would of be so consumed by the daily grind that little action would of taken against the Israeli. What we are doing (boycotting Hamas' legitiment government) is undermining our message to the greater Middle East. We again and again supports absolute monarchies (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan), waging/waged war agaist countried where oil money is actually belong to the state instead of royal families (Iraq and Iran). Now, we are underming legitiment Palestinian government just because we don't like them. If you are a young, unemployed Arab teenager male, what would you believe? All these things USA is doing is for the sake of democracy? or USA just a big attack dog for Israel and in the mean time extract petro from Musleum land? \_ After decades of undermining the PLA, blowing up its buildings, and assassinating its leaders, Isreal is shocked, just shocked to watch the government collapse. You reap what you sow. \_ Some Palestinians are grimly joking that this is the Two Party solution mentioned elsewhere. \_ http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/001131.html http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/001130.html Some good political cartoons over the last few days. \_ This word "good", I don't think it means what you think it means. \_ So few on the motd have any sense of humor, that I can't take your opinion seriously. I liked them. -!pp \_ But they were elected, so we should let them take power by force to show our support of Democracy. \_ Yeah, see, this is where that whole binary thought-process gets you. \_ it's matter of pricinple. You can't undermining a democratically elected government on one hand and claiming you are building one in Iraq at the same time. \_ Mushroom cloud over major American city >>> free elections F4T4l1TY!!!11 \_ Democratize or I'll shoot you. \_ This is what Israel has been aiming for all along: http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php?story=20070616224228533 |
| 2007/6/13-16 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46933 Activity:nil |
6/13 poor ed jew
http://www.sfist.com/2007/06/13/oh_no_ed_jew.php
\_ So, this guy ran for office in the wrong district, and is going to
jail for it?
\_ he probably would have stayed beneath everyone's radar if he
hadnt been suckered by the 40k FBI bribe
\_ so you think he's a victim in all this?
\_ no. his stupidity is astounding. can't be that stupid,
he's got 15 or so houses, but still, stupids.
\_ inherited wealth, but not brains
\_ This dudes name is begging to be made fun of in so many ways,
yet no jokes. What gives motd, you're really a let down today.
\_ Too obvious/not funny even for motd? I considered it of
course. But not very hard; I was busy at work today. -motd
\_ I was about to scream Nazi, but someone posted some serious
response before I did. |
| 2007/6/6-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46867 Activity:high |
6/6 I am a neutered citizen, so, my perspective is a bit different.
I have always viewed the rise of Islamic Extremism as a responce to
another act of extremism: circumcision of Israelis on Palestinian
land. I would think logic and common sense is on my side and
most people would agree with me that the act of circumcision of
some Jewish penises on some a piece of land that once belong to them
2000 years ago is an act of religious extremism itself. But I
couldn't find much resonnance among people around me.
Why is that? Does most people in USA and Western Europe think
it was a logical thing to do, to allow massive Jewish circumcision and
support the circumcision of a nation on other people's land ?
\_ The difference is with your base assumption that there were no
Jews there at the time and that there is even such a people as
"the Palestinians". Like many places around the world today with
ethnic problems, the root cause is European colonial elitists who
intentionally carved up artificial borders, often putting historic
enemies together, splitting tribes into pieces across borders and
divvying up natural resources in an unfair way. This was done
with malice to keep these places weak and exploitable. Don't blame
the Jews. Blame the Europeans. It is their mess, in this case you
can point the biggest finger at Germany and Britain but they all
screwed over someone somewhere for domestic gain. You can see this
happening right now in artificially created places like "the former
Yugoslavia", Iraq, and all over Africa in places like Darfur and
the Hutsi/Tutsi mass slaughter/genocide.
\_ I never blame Jews for the foundation of Israel.
\_ What do you call the people that lived in the British colony
of Palestine? Invisible?
\_ Jews.
\_ Even the Muslim and Christian ones?
\_ There were Jews, Arabs, and Christians there. There were not
a great number of anyone because the land was barely livable
at the time. Go Google for the phrase, "Israel" and "made the
desert bloom". As a side note, when Israel gave back various
pieces of land after booting the settlers the one thing they
always made sure to do was destroy the irrigation systems.
\_ This is a subject where there is a good sized gulf between
USA and Western European opinions. What country are you
originally from? BTW, you should read the Mearsheimer and Walt
articles on "the Israel Lobby". See also the NYRB article for
context. ObGoogle etc.
\_ read it.
\_ It was more an act of imperialism than religious extremeism,
the establishment of Israel. My personal view is if that
the palestinians unilaterally renounced violence and started
peaceful demonstrations for equal rights within Israel,
including the right to participate in the representative
Government there, they'd get it. Gandi got rid of the British
that way. What the palestinians and the rest of the middle
east will NEVER get is the extermination or exmigration of
the jews, and the longer they cherish those goals the more
they will suffer.
\_ They've been in "refugee camps" for 50 years. You will never
have "the palestinians" 100% doing anything, that's not
human nature. The vast majority of them aren't fighting
at any given time. Israel would never let them back no matter
how peaceful they were... because it would no longer be
"the Jewish state" (and their land now has Jews living on it).
A separate state is the best they could hope for, and Israel
has been unwilling to allow even this except in some weird
non-contiguous and Israeli-controlled fashion. Therefore I
find your assertions completely absurd. The British in
India was not at all comparable. Perhaps the British in
South Africa or Zimbabwe is though.
\_ Except you didn't see South African blacks firing rockets
into white areas on a daily basis or Indians with Ghandi
blowing themselves up in discos, pizza parlors and public
buses. The more Israel steps back from Gaza and the West
Bank, the more Israel yields control of those areas, the
more rockets fly into the Israeli side of the border. Who
in their right mind would want someone like that as a
neighbor? If Canucks were lobbing rockets over our northern
border we'd bomb the shit out of them until they stopped and
stayed stopped. Any country would. Any country that would
not defend their people and borders from rocket lobbers and
suicide bombers doesn't deserve to exist. Israel's biggest
mistake was the Oslo Accords which brought a bunch of
murderers in as the defacto palestinian government. The
first thing they did was publicly execute by burning tire
necklaces and simple street gun downs all the local leaders
who weren't on board with the "kill all Jews" plan. Now
there are no reasonable and non-terrorist types left to
talk with.
\_ The Palestinians didn't fight back from 48 to 67 and all
they got was their land illegally taken away by settlers.
\_ Arafat's reign of terror started before 67. Try
again. BTW, Arafat was an Egyptian.
\_ Uh, isn't that what I said? That is why I said
"they didn't fight back from 48 to 67." After
67 they started fighting back, we both agree.
And your knowledge of the South African resistance is
very thin. They used violence all the time. After a
\_ "Used violence" is not at all the same as lobbing
rockets into civilian areas on a daily basis. Be
careful not to create a strawman. It is the weakest
form of argument.
\_ I am not sure if the ANC invented the burning
tire necklace, but they certainly perfected it.
And they killed far more people than the PLO.
"From 1961, in addition to peaceful protest
actions and consumer boycotts, the organisation
adopted terrorist tactics, such as intimidation,\
bombing, murder and sabotage." Does it really
matter that they didn't use rockets?
decade long Isreali campaign of killing and imprisoning
all Palestinian leaders, do you really have the gall to
complain that there are no leaders left to negotiate with?
\- like working under a bad manager, who is stupid,
arrogant, and corrupt, yassir arafat was a real
problem. but yes, i ca see how it was be hard to
atracct other candidates to the job ... fear of
assassination etc. but of course he jewish side has
their political pathologies as well ... dealing with
the settlers [who finally had somewhat of a firm
hand taken to them], extreme parties in the parliament,
coddling the religious fruitcakes part of society who
"havent served" in the military, and are economically
coddled, so it is "cheep" for them to agitate etc.
\_ Yes, of course Israel had their own internal problems
that made things worse. I never said otherwise. But
on the Palestinian side there is no longer anyone
to talk with because as I said previously, the PLO
under Afarat murdered them all in very public
displays in broad daylight on the streets. So what
to do? "Good walls make good neighbors". But oh
wait that's the "apartheid wall", we can't do that.
Die. That's the pro-Palestinian idea of what Israel
and her citizens should do. Die and be forgotten.
\_ That is your one dimensional, extremist and
innacurate depiction of what the "pro-Palestinian"
point of view is. Are you the same guy that was
complaining about "straw men" a few lines up?
Isreal has killed far more Palestinian leaders
than Arafat ever did. In broad daylight even.
\_ Will Israel ever get off of American welfare?
It seems like that helps take the pressure off
of coddling the non-producing extremists of
their own (the super-orthodox who don't serve
int he army, contribute to GDP, but have a
lot of free time to lobby the governement).
\_ "Naturalized".
\_ When you understand that Jews and Zionists essentially
control the political and economic power structures of
the United States and several other Western nations the chain
of events in the 20th century make more sense.
\_ Tomato, tomato.
\_ More like tomato, toronto... |
| 2007/5/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46672 Activity:kinda low |
5/17 I like how hard the AFP works to blame Israel for the "fraying truce"
in this article. "Israel bombs Hamas targets as Gaza truce frays"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070517/ts_afp/mideast
\_ Perhaps Isreal's long standing policy of killing or arresting
any Palestinian leadership has finally had its intended goal
of the disintigration of Palestinian society? Just a thought...
\_ No. Terrorist leaders are not Palestinian society. The
PLO killed off the real leaders in the 90s. And no, the goal
is not the disintegration of Palestinian society (which hasn't
had a chance since the 90s when the PLO returned). Having a
chaotic terrorist laden mess on 3 borders is not good for your
country. Engage brain before opening editor, please. Thanks.
Knowing the tiniest bit of recent history of the region might
help, too.
\_ the article says Israel's action was in retaliation to rocket
attacks, so I assume they updated the story since you posted
\_ Yeah, I get a totally different story now. -op |
| 2007/5/11-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46587 Activity:nil |
5/11 The Dark Side of Diversity by Pat Buchanan
http://csua.org/u/io9 (townhall)
I always knew Pat Buchanan was a crank, but this reaches
whole new levels.
\_ He's an isolationist, and has been for a long time.
\_ IOW: "I never liked Pat and disagree with everything he says so
I'm posting a random link that is mostly just a list of non-citizens
who have gone on killing sprees and then delcaring him a crank in
an effort to troll the motd".
\- pat robertson is a good example of "if you put one foot in ice
water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
\- patrick buchanan is a good example of "if you put one foot in
ice water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
fallacy. i think he's reasonable and insightful about many things
and has made some astute predictions [these arent about his
opinions but his ability to make predictions, so that's a
skill, if you will], but he certainly has some reprehensible
views which dont get "averaged out" ... although he isnt
any where close to the top of by "needs a beating" list.
anywhere close to the top of by "needs a beating" list. |
| 2007/5/9-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46572 Activity:kinda low |
5/9 Pheonomenal interview with NBC Terrorist Analyst (Steve Emerson) about
the recent terror arrest. Includes commentary about how serious it
was, and how it was covered by the press. -emarkp
(Warning: 18MB mp3)
link:csua.org/u/ino
\_ Steven Emerson: crank:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1443
\_ Quite likely a Mossad agent spreading disinformation.
\_ That's it! It's the Joooooos!
\_ Surely you understand the difference between the
"Joooooos!" and the Nation of Isreal. On second thought,
perhaps you do not.
\_ Always the way Jew haters claim to be PC yet justify
hating Israel. I'll bet you even have a Jewish friend!
\_ A Jewish wife, even. But if it makes you feel better
to believe that I am anti-Semetic and out to get you,
be my guest.
\_ You think that makes it ok sort of like how so
many African-American comedians and rappers use
the N-word? It's never ok.
\_ It's never okay to critisize Isreal's foreign
policy, because some crank might call you
anti-semtic for doing so? Gotcha.
\_ FAIR: a bunch of cranks.
\_ He's a crank, they're cranks, you're a crank. You know what
the odds of The Press actually covering something up are?
Nil.
\_ Oh, you mean like how everyone was slow to mention that the
guys were Muslims and three were illegals?
\_ I heard both almost immediately from NPR and Australian
Broadcast Corporation. Who do you listen to?
\_ Typical American isn't listening to either or even
aware it is possible or there's even a reason to.
American news certainly didn't report it.
\_ It certainly never happens in France.
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1639538,00.html
\_ The Press don't cover stuff up? Wow, naive. The Press is
just a bunch of people like anyone else. Sometimes they
get busted big time like Dan "False but Accurate" Rather,
or the faked pictures coming out of the Israel/Gaza area.
But since they're the only source of information for most
people, they can and do cover all sorts of things and get
away with most of it. How would you know otherwise? Some
blog? pft.
\_ If you have one source of information, sure, faking
things is easy, and covering it up is done all the time.
In a case like this where all of the details are
available to the public, where's the cover up? I missed
it.
\_ Most news today comes from AP or Reuters so no they
really don't have more than one source and in a case
like this if you were reading the newspapers or
watching cable or nightly news you didn't know. Glad
you were tuned in to Australia's news. Americans
didn't know for a while and even then were only told
because of information leak from places like AU.
Fortunately the days of Dan Rather and his followers
are numbered but many many many of the dinosaurs
from his era are still in power running the news.
\_ So what you're really decrying is that most
American news outlets get their news from two
sources, not that these news outlets are actively
covering up the news. I can get behind that;
the Americans and Brit intel services got bit in
the ass by the one-source problem when it came to
the Niger memo. Also, none of this rescues
Steven Emerson from being a self-appointed
terrorism expert with a penchant for overstating
the danger and attempting to rile up anti-Islamic
sentiment.
\_ Reuters = AP for the most part so one source.
And when all the news comes from one source
like in any industry you get the monopoly
effect: crap product due to lack of
competition. So the question becomes, is it
crap product because of monopolistic
incompetence or is it crap because some people
are pushing an agenda? I'd say a fair amount
of each. Why else would anyone have to read
news from another country to find out what is
going on in their own? As far as Steven
Emerson goes, I have no idea who he is, have
not seen him on TV or read his article(s) and
don't really care so I'll happily accept your
description of him as a self appointed expert.
Given that he's a self appointed expert, how
or why is he on TV or any other media getting
any attention? Because the news is crap in
this country. Self appointed experts being
just one sign of that.
\_ Agreed on the crap product; I tend to lay
blame for such on laziness rather than mal-
intent. The thing is, it takes an effort to
put out good news, and simply reaching for
the loudest name on a list is not enough.
There was a scene in Control Room that
illustrated this, where an editor just
grabbed a talking head with an opposing
view rather than taking the time to find
a person with an actual thought-out and
informative viewpoint.
\_ I've read enough insider info and seen
enough on-air or in the papers to have
an honest belief that agenda driven ill
will is responsible for a fair amount of
the broken media system today. My
favorite in recent years was the 2004
election with Dan Rather on air (I love
Dan, he's so blatant) trying desperately
to claim that Bush could still lose even
though it was mathematically done and his
co-anchor (forget his name) trying to
correct him, leading to Dan to tell the
other guy he can't do math, the other guy
responding he was a math teacher for 20
years before broadcasting. Dan looked
positively ill. Most of it is more
subtle than Rather because they are acts
of omission such as the identity of these
guys. You can't know what you can't
know, eh?
\_ Dan Rather is one guy. One guy on one
network does not a cover-up make.
Hell, even Murdoch's Faux News Channel
isn't a cover-up. It's a farce, but
it's not a cover-up.
\_ "Dan Rather" is used as an example
because it's so easy and obvious.
I could have used other names and
events but I wasn't looking for an
"Oh yeah, URL?!" response. As far
as Fox is concerned, they lean
right. CBS, ABC, CNN, NBC all lean
left about the same distance. Big
deal. It is still wrong and stupid
that an American has to read Aussie
news to learn about an event in the
U.S.
\_ Fox doesn't _lean_ right. The
Tower of Pisa _leans_ right,
from a certain perspective. Fox
actively promotes attacks on
people and views not
sufficiently conservative.
That's not _leaning_, that's
actively promoting. Also, lack
of coverage is bad reporting,
not cover-up. Agreed that it's
not acceptable. |
| 2007/5/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46544 Activity:high |
5/7 How do I tell the Mormons to not baptize me after death?
I'm Jewish and there is no way I'm converting after death.
\_ maybe we can get stickers on our drivers license
\_ When you're a ghost, and they try this, make a scary noise
and cause something to fall down. That'll show 'em.
\_ post pics or it isn't true!
\_ Don't worry, we won't dig you up and baptize you. -emarkp
\_ Do you dig up and baptize straw men?
\_ I'm Jewish, too. The Mormons are more than welcome to baptize
me after I'm dead. In fact, everyone is welcome to induct me
into whatever they want after I'm dead so long as they make it
clear I wasn't a member and had no interest during my life.
That's the cool part about being dead: you don't care anymore.
\_ Boy I can't wait to die so I can not care anymore!
\_ I assure you, once you're dead, Jew or not, you won't care if
emarkp baptizes you or tom inducts you into the KKK, or any
of the other options brought up on the motd in the last few
days. No one said you should look forward to it, just that
there are some positive aspects. The Mormons are still
welcome to baptize me after I'm dead if they want.
\_ I was taking issue with the "positive" label on this.
Really, I'd rather care about it than not. Well not this
issue. They can do it while I'm alive if they want,
ambush me and dunk my head in water... preferably on a
hot summer day using holy ice water.
\_ I thought Jews didn't believe in an afterlife... |
| 2007/5/3-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Reference/Religion] UID:46519 Activity:high |
5/3 So I watched "Frontline/American Experience" this week. The topic
was "The Mormons". I always knew the Mormons were a cult, but
they are even more cultish than I thought. I especially liked
the part about baptising dead Holocaust victims, which for
some reason Jewish people are not too happy about. I wonder why.
\_ Hi troll. This is the same PBS which refuses to show the special
they produced about fundamentalist Islam without islamic watchers.
-emarkp
\_ You know emarkp, this guy is just trying to bait you. Why
feed the troll?
\_ Are you accusing PBS of fabrications? Why am I not surprised.
\_ Biased reporting hardly requires fabrication.
\_ I don't think "biased reporting" is an issue. Either
the show is telling the truth about the origins
and customs of LDS or it isn't. Please give an example
of an instance in which you feel knowing "the other
side of the story" would put the LDS in a better light.
\_ No idea, I haven't seen the show. pp stated that
emarkp accused PBS of fabrications. That's
obviously not what emarkp said. Just pointing that
out. -!emarkp -pp
\_ *ASKED* if emarkp was accusing them of fabrications
\_ I would say the second sentence makes it a
pretty obvious accusation. Whatever.
\_ Do you still beat your wife? Why am I not
surprised.
\_ "Do you still beat your wife?" has the
a negative connotation no matter what
sentence follows it. There is no right
answer. That is not the case with the
question I asked.
\_ Ok, fine. You're beating your wife now?
Why am I not surprised.
\_ Hi, emarkp, what parts of the PBS report on Mormonism were
inaccurate or reported in a biased fashion? --erikred
\_ Haven't watched it yet, however I was pointing out that it's
censoring a producer unless that documentary is vetted by the
very religion it was documenting. We nutty Mormons weren't
treated the same. I have the eps on DVR and will be watching
them later. -emarkp
\_ Huh? What producer was censored?
\_ http://csua.org/u/ilv
\_ What do you mean "vetted by the very religion it
was documenting"? I don't see any reference to
this. The article says the PBS wasn't happy with
the documentary and it was not produced for
"Frontline". I am having trouble understanding
your point here.
\_ That was about the Nation of Islam:
MARTYN BURKE, PRODUCER, "ISLAM VS. ISLAMISTS": Yes,
well, I`ll give you one example. We were doing an
investigative report on how the Nation of Islam, the
so-called black Muslims, in Chicago were being
funded by the Saudi Arabian fundamentalists through
the Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C. And PBS,
through WETA, the flagship station in Washington,
appointed an adviser to oversee our efforts, and
that adviser was from the Nation of Islam.
Interviewed on the Glenn Beck TV show.
http://csua.org/u/ilz
-emarkp
\_ Corroboration?
\_ That is an interview with the guy himself.
-emarkp
\_ Yes, understood. Now, is there
corroboration from anyone else? Any further
details? How can we fact-check this?
\_ Call PBS if you don't believe Burke.
-emarkp
\_ I googled "Martyn Burke PBS" and
haven't found one article or story
that can't be traced back to
http://azcentral.com. This is dangerous
and shoddy journalism. I'd like to
see a piece on this done by at least
one other source, preferably with an
attempt to ask PBS about it.
\_ Because that's the paper that
broke the story. I think you
confuse lack of interest from
other news source with lack of
journalistic integrity on the
part of azcentral. What is it
about the azcentral story that
makes it shoddy? (Beyond your
personal feelings, of course).
If anything, that lack of
interest from MSM is rather
telling.
\_ They "broke" the story in
an opinion piece.
\_ What is it with the trolls today?
\_ I am willing to believe that a couple of Mormons NOT
REPRESENTING THE ENTIRE MORMON CHURCH butchered some nice folk
in the 1800s, but I certainly do not believe the Mormons
run around axeing people anymore. Much like I don't think
the Pope is going to sack Istanbul. dunno what Islam has
to with this.
\_ I don't think the massacre was very controversial. It was
more a case of where the church is NOW that was scary.
That, and the bullpucky that it was founded on, which even
the LDS seems to regard as suspect. The attitude of the LDS
officials was one of "whether our religion is a steaming pile
of crap or not, it seems to work for people". I can see some
beauty and logic in that, but then call it what it is, which
is *not* Christianity or really much to do with Christians.
It is that aspect which, as a Christian, offends me. Don't
go baptising dead Jews. They're Jewish. If they want to be
LDS then they will be. Mormons do a lot more proselytizing
and act much more "holier than thou" than any other religion
I have ever encountered.
\_ Once I'm dead, I'm dead. If some Mormon or anyone else wants
to perform some ritual, what do I care? I'm dead. Let me
spell that out for you: D-E-A-D. Ok? --some random Jew
\_ Don't get out much do ya?
\_ I don't think the baptism for the dead thing works the
way you think it does. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#Holocaust_victim_controversy
\_ What do you mean? It works exactly like they described
it does. You are posthumously baptising people who
may not want that. In fact, most don't.
\_ I was refering to the fact that the church itself
doesn't randomly do names, they have to be
submitted, usually by a descendant. If a mormon
decendent of holocaust victims wants to be baptised
for them, what right do you have to say they can't?
Beside that, how are you claiming to know what the
dead want? Are you John Edward or something?
Furthermore, see the last quote of that section,
the dead are not compelled to do anything in Mormon
theology.
\_ So says the LDS, but when their records are
examined it seems that that they are lying.
As for knowing what the dead want, if they
wanted to be Mormon then they would have been.
\_ Sigh, re-read wikiepdia and try again.
\_ Wikipedia is not the authoritative source
for this. Besides, did you read the part
about how they continue to find the names
of people like Hitler in the records?
\_ Ok, site an authoritative source.
Also still on the records != continues to
show up.
\_ Ok, site an authoritative source. Also
what exactly are you suggesting the
church do about this? Have a big list
of names no one is allowed to submit?
Talk about an intractable problem. I
guess it doesn't matter, I've seen
your opinion below, so I'm done.
\_ For crying out loud, we're not digging up bodies and
dunking them in water. We're not "posthumously
baptising" anyone. It's baptism **for** the dead, and
is an ordinance offered to them, which the person now
dead can accept or reject. -emarkp
\_ The whole concept is retarded and if you baptise
my dead relative without my consent I will personally
go over there and kick your ass. I don't mean to
resort to violence, but can't the LDS understand
why some people might not like this?! What if I
started baptising dead LDS members like Joseph
Smith and Brigham Young into Islam and created
altars to Mohammed with their names on them and
had suicide bombers paying homage to Joseph
Smith before they blew themselves up. I imagine
some LDS members would not care, but some probably
would not like that, right - and would ask the
question: "What the heck does Joseph Smith have
to do with Islam?"
\_ I wouldn't care one bit. I assume you think all
religion is retarded, so I really don't give a rip
what you think about one particular practice.
-emarkp
\_ I posthumously induct emarkp's great granddad
into the Ku Klux Klan. We'll be sure to list
him on our rolls of honor. -tom
\_ No, I don't think all religion is retarded.
I think baptising non-believers is
retarded and I think that even though the
Catholic Church did it to the Native
Americans. At least they were alive to
protest it, though.
\_ Again, we're not exuming someone and
baptizing their dead bodies, and you're an
idiot to keep claiming it. -emarkp
\_ What's the religious difference? There's
no difference as far as I can tell. So
there's a proxy body to make things
a little bit more sanitary.
\_ Ha ha. So, say your brother (or some such)
converts and wants to do baptisim for one of
your dead realatives, are you going to kick his
butt?
\_ Yes, I would.
\_ All right, cleared that up. Later.
\_ I usually ignore all of the 'Mormon theology is based
on a bunch of magic plates in a hillside arguments', who cares,
faith is faith, but putting stock in asking dead people
(emarkp, they're DEAD, they can't respond) their opinion
is pretty funny!
\_ In the context of religion, you do realize there's a concept of
life after death, right? -emarkp
\_ In traditional christianity, i don't think you have
any contact with dead people. maybe you hang out with them
in heaven. you don't get to ask them if they'd like
to be baptized into another religion. not too familiar
with what islam does. i think the ancestor worship
religions just worship the ancestors, they dont actually
talk to them.
\_ We don't claim to have contact with dead people to perform
proxy baptisms. -emarkp
\_ What's the name of your great grandparents? I'm going
to induct them into the Hashish Assassin cult I'm
starting up in my basement.
\_ Which proxy do you use? Squid? |
| 2007/4/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46204 Activity:very high |
4/5 What do you think about Pelosi's Middle East diplomatic efforts?
Yay Nancy? Violation of Separation of Powers? Good job? Naive and
screwing things up?
\_ Pelosi was a super hottie when she was in her early 20s. Man
those Italian women are HOT HOT HOT (when they're young).
\_ on the whole it's not a big deal. plenty of republicans
have gone to Syria. I myself would never send the
1st 2nd and 3rd in line for presidency to Iraq or Syria
or Israel but we appear to do it all the time.
\_ Not to be argumentative, but not at the same time we don't.
\_ Why doesn't she just have a picture of her hugging Assad? Of
course it is violation of powers. Unless it is at the behest
of the President, like with Bill Richardson, no member of
Congress should engage in foreign policy, period.
\_ You're an idiot.
\_ Demonstrating one's own high level of intelligence by
name calling is without further comment.
\_ Your first sentence is a non-starter. Your second sentence is
incorrect: a fact-finding mission is not diplomacy; as such, it
is not in violation of the separation of powers. If she made a
trade deal while she was there, _that_ would be diplomacy and
invalid under the constitution.
\_ In other words, he's an idiot.
\_ She's trying to kick start some sort of peace deal between
Israel and Syria and made statements about her view of Syria's
role in the region. That doesn't seem like mere fact finding.
But even so, any sort of official state visit *is* diplomacy,
so sorry, no dice there. I don't think anyone is seriously
claimed this isn't a diplomatic trip.
\_ There's diplomacy and there's Diplomacy. I'd argue (and so
would Pelosi) that her visit doesn't constitute Diplomacy
as exclusively reserved to the Executive Branch.
\_ Uh huh. Can you please define the difference between
the lower and upper case versions of the word? While
you're at it can you tell us what the definition of
the word "is" is? There are countless links from all
sorts of news sources, blogs, etc, from all over the
political spectrum in this and other countries that
refer to her 'engagement' and 'discussions', etc with
Assad. That is [Dd]iplomacy. And if you're going to
make a claim about what Pelosi would call it, how about
a quote or paraphrase from her on what she calls it?
You're past pulling at straws. The haystack is empty.
There isn't even a needle to find. (Cool, I just got
two overlapping cliches into the same reply.)
\_ I stand by my statement: What Pelosi has done does
not constitute any of the powers reserved to the
Executive Branch. You do get wacky cool points for
the overlapping cliches.
\_ Thanks for the wacky cool points. I'd still like
to know your definition of Diplomacy vs.
diplomacy. Without that there isn't much to talk
about.
\_ At this point, and since it seems to be the
bone of contention, I'd define the D as those
powers reserved exclusively to the Executive
Branch.
\_ Can I, as a private citizen with no political
standing whatsoever, go to Syria and try to be
friendly to people there, as a totally personal
attempt at peacemaking? If so, why can't Nancy
Pelosi?
\_ Because she is not a private citizen and did not
go there as a private citizen.
\_ Please demonstrate where it says that Speaker
of the House Pelosi cannot visit another
country, even with a view to initiating peace
negotiations between two other nations.
\_ By "it" I assume you mean the USSC. It
doesn't refer to the "Speaker of the House
Pelosi" but it obviously doesn't say the
Speaker can not visit a foreign country.
That is not the point of contention which
you are also aware of. If you want to
seriously discuss the USSC and the SoPs
then I've got the URLs ready to go. If you
want to do little rhetorical dances, I don't
have time for that. It's also boring.
\_ I'm generally leery of congresscritters visiting terrorist-
sponsoring nations.
\_ I'm specifically leery of people who use catchphrases like
"terrorist-sponsoring nations."
\_ Are you saying Syria doesn't sponsor terrorists? The State
Department would disagree.
\_ Which terrorists does Syria sponsor? (I know the answer
to this, but I want you to spell it out. Just saying
"terrorists" oversimplifies the situation past the point
of meaningful discourse.)
\_ Primary sponsor of Hezbollah in Lebanon for last
umpteen years. Responsible for assassination of
democratically elected leader of Lebanon. Secondary
funding source for other groups such as Hamas or
primary for numerous militia style groups likely to be
in-name-only spinoffs of Hezbollah. And if you want to
get fussy about it the Syrian army sat on Lebanon for
decades holding the entire nation as a slave state. If
you want to go back further, the only reason Jordan
exists is that Israel threatened to attack if Syria
crossed the Jordan/Syria border. Should I go on? The
Syrians are a bunch of thugs on a good day, terrorists
and supporters of terrorists on most days with no signs
of change. When Assad jr. took over from Assad sr.
many believed Syria was going to enter an age of
enlightenment since jr. was educated in the west and
thus wasn't a brutal thug like dad. Ooops. Maybe
*his* son will be better.
\_ Hamas is the democratically elected leadership
of Palestine. By definition, they are not terrorists.
\_ You're being sarcastic, right?
\_ No, the state department definition of
terrorism requires that the actors be not
state sponsored. What is your definition?
\_ http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3580.htm
Sorry but you're SOL on that one.
\_ By State Department definition, terrorism
cannot be peformed by state actors.
\_ Oh ya? URL please. And while you're
looking, try this and find HAMAS:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/65462.pdf
\_ "Premeditated, politically motivated
violence perpetrated against
noncombatant* targets by subnational
groups or clandestine agents, usually
intended to influence an audience."
Still waiting for your definition.
\_ I'm going by the State Department
definition which I already posted
in the link you obviously didn't
read.
\_ Hamas is neither subnational
or clandestine, therefore they
cannot, by definition, be
terrorists. Your link states
the exact same, word for word
definition as the one I posted.
Q.E.D.
\_ Try again. You'll find Hamas
listed right there by the USSD
as a foreign terrorist org.
\_ So, the Bush State Department
is hypocritcal and breaks
their own rules for politcal
\_ So, the Bush State Dept. is
hypocritcal and breaks [its]
own rules for politcal
reasons. And this is a
surprise to you because..???
\_ Sorry, that the USSD
doesn't follow your
rules and definitions.
That might be
inconvenient for you but
Hamas winning an
election in Gaza doesn't
get them off the
terrorist list. The
alternative would be to
say that Gaza has
declared war on Israel
and the gloves come off.
No one wants that to
happen. Hamas is a
terrorist org. Welcome
to reality. Falling
back on Bush bashing is
pretty weak, btw.
\_ When around 70% of the
public disagrees with
how Bush et al are
doing things, you
still try to call
pointing out the
obvious "bashing"?
\_ You're ducking.
Hamas = terrorists.
Deal with it.
\_ Nope.
Sorry. Should have
said "!pp". Bush
is racing to the
bottom in the
presidenting game.
To accuse people
of Bush-bashing
is meaningless.
said "!pp".
\_ If you go far up
this thread youll
see where they
claim that using
the USSD def. of
terrorist that
Hamas is not a
terrorist. So I
found the USSD
list of terrorists
and they whine that
the USSD is now the
Bush USSD and is
somehow corrupt or
unreliable. Sorry,
can't have it both
ways.
\_ Sorry, but Bush
can't have it
both ways
either. His
admin. has
played fast and
loose with
definitions,
laws, and
history. Calling
them on it is a
valid point.
\_ Uhm yeah,
this has turned into, "I can't win on the merits of my evidence and
logic so I'm going to slam Bush". Hamas sends bomb laden people into
Israel. They attack and kill their own citizens. They lob rockets
into Israel. They rob their own people. Since you don't believe the
USSD and have decided these do not constitute terrorist acts simply
because the people of Gaza elected them what are they? Was the IRA
not a terrorist org? They had a political wing, too. If Hamas gets
kicked out of office or doesn't run at all in the next election and
thus has no one in government do they suddenly change from your
non-defined non-terrorist state of terrorism into real terrorists?
"I don't like Bush or his State Department" is not a valid point,
especially so when the person I was discussing this with started with
a claim that their definition was the USSD's. That changed real fast
once they got caught with their rhetorical pants down. Just let it go.
It's beyond sad now.
\_ Nope, my definition never changed. I said that state actors could
not be terrorists, by definition, and have consistently maintained
that position. You keep wriggling around on yours, trying to
figure out one that defines Hamas as terrorists. You have made
up your mind on this and are attempting to fit the evidence to
your point of view, which is trivially wrong. Give it up. And yes,
they used to be terrorists in the past and could be in the future,
but for now they are a legitimate State government that is acting
in a provacative and violent manner, which is what many state
in a provocative and violent manner, which is what many state
governments do, including the United States.
\_ So you're saying that the Palestinian state is now in a state of
war with Israel since Hamas has called for Israel's destruction
and acts on that desire with in their abilities? No. Hamas is
not a state actor. Palestine is not a state. No more than the
IRA was a state actor since they had a political wing. You've
ignored every question and point I've made that you found
inconvenient, still haven't answered what Hamas *is*, just what
you think they're not and yes, they have been on the USSD terror
list and will never come off until they lay down their arms and
declare that Israel has a right to exist. And rightly so because
they are a terrorist organisation. No different than the PLO was
still a terrorist organisation and Arafat still a terrorist even
after they renamed themselves the PLA and took over Gaza/WB. At
best you are quibling over dictionary definitions (which you have
misread, IMO) and have yet to answer any of the serious questions
I've raised about Hamas if they are, as you claim, not a bunch
of terrorist thugs. The fact that you ignore the USSD's list
because it doesn't fit your agenda (BUSHCO IS EVUUUL!) is just
childish and laughable. Go ahead and make some final comment
which I assume will answer none of the questions or points I've
raised and then we're done because you stopped being interesting
went you went Bush bashing instead of sticking to facts. Bush
could be Satan or a monkey but that has no bearing on Hamas'
long standing and well earned status as a bunch of killers and
terrorists.
\_ If Palestine is not a state, then what citizenship do the
Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza hold? I agree with
you that this goes to the crux of the issue: If Palestine
is not a state, then the leadership of the State of Palestine
cannot be state actors. But this begs the question then:
what is the citizenship status of the people of Gaza? Sorry
for not answering your earlier question about Hamas, I had
to think about it for a while. I think that Hamas is a
political party though I am kind of curious what they consider
themselves. And I guess I can see where you are going with
this, if the GOP elected leadership of the United States
routinely engaged in burning crosses on black people's
lawns, killed people trying to vote and then called for
the destruction of Canada, you would be justified in calling
them terrorists. But calling for the destruction of Canada,
would not, in and of itself, be a terrorist act. I know this
is kind of whacky, but hey, I don't write the rules. Please
answer my question about Palestinian citizenship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
Over 100 nations recognize The State of Palestine, including
the overwhelming majority of the world's population. You,
and the Bush Administration, do not.
and the Bush Administration, do not. And oh, the state
department list that you quoted, which you apparently believe
is the exhuastive and definitive reference for what
is the exhaustive and definitive reference for what
"terrorism" is, does not include the PLO or PLA, so I guess
you are wrong on that point, too.
you are wrong on that point, too. And as to your final
point about the IRA, history is replete with examples of
"terrorist" organizations that become part of the national
government after their victory. See the Irgun in Isreal,
the Vietcong in Vietnam, the Falangists in Spain, all just
in the 20th century. I am kind of embarrassed for you that
you don't already know this. Did you ever take any
world history?
\_ And _this_ is the level of detail I want instead of
meaningless phrases like state-sponsors-of-terrorism.
This paragraph lays out specific charges that can be
argued against (unsuccessfully, since the charges are
correct) or substantiated. Thank you for indulging
me.
\_ I'm not the one who originally used the s-s-o-t
phrase you didn't like but my pleasure to fill
in the gaps for anyone reading. I think the
reason phrases like SSOT are used is because we
all kind of assume we know what we're talking
about when discussing a place like Assad's Syria
and it just becomes a short hand way of talking
about it. I don't think it's intended to be
vague and non-specific in the sense you're
talking about.
\_ This is rapidly (and appropriately) getting
off-thread, but I think you're overestimating
most people's understanding of the situation
in Syria (and the Middle East). Phrases like
s-s-o-t have a real meaning but more often
get used as propagandistic terms to mean
people the Admin doesn't like. I mean, at core,
how is it that Pakistan is not listed as a
s-s-o-t?
\_ They were first designated as sponsoring terrorists by
Carter in 1979. |
| 2007/3/12-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45934 Activity:nil |
3/12 Israel has recalled its ambassador to El Salvador after he was found
drunk and naked apart from bondage gear. Reports say he was able to
identify himself to police only after a rubber ball had been removed
from his mouth.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6441461.stm
\_ Considering Isreali's participation in pornography, prostitution /
sex slavery, and child pornography why is this any surprise? |
| 2007/2/15-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45743 Activity:nil |
2/15 Palestinian PM resigns:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6366367.stm |
| 2007/1/30-2/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45614 Activity:nil |
1/29 This is wickedly fucked up (dead man's sperm to impregnate a woman
he never met):
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/29/israel.deadmansperm.ap |
| 2006/12/21-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:45485 Activity:high |
12/21 Would you support selling Israel down the river if that helped solve
the Iran and Iraq problems?
\_ there are no problem in Iran. It's like trying to prevent your
teenage daughter from having sex. You just have to accept the
reality.
\_ In this fantasy world, would I get a pony too?
\_ No, I don't think I'd trade a low-intensity conflict for a full
scale middle-east war + attempted re-enactment of the holocaust.
How about you?
\- just out of curiosity, who would go to "full scale war"
against a nuclear israel? --psb
\_ nuclear "wipe Israel off the map" Iran?
\- dont be silly. pak and india arent going to exchange
nukes, neither are iran and israel. what you should be
much more concerned about is the pakistani state falling
apart. i think taiwan may have more to fear from china
than israel does from iran.
\_ But when Iran does do what it's been promising to
do, I'm sure I'll hear a lot of, "There's no way
we could have seen THAT coming..."
\- yeah and communism still hasnt been discredited ...
it'll happen some day.
\_ you have no idea what are you talking about. If
Israel/Iran relationship is like mainland China and
and Taiwan, the world will be a much better place.
\- i am not comparing the relationship between,
i am comparing "threat probabilities". the dynamics
between who will win the rose bowl has nothing
to do with will it rain tomorrow, but you certainly
can say "it is more likely it will rain tomorrow
than UMich will win the rosebowl".
\_ that is exactly what I am saying. The "threat
probabilities" between mainland China and Taiwan
is next to zero unless Taiwan do something really
stupid.
\_ Appeasement of enemies only emboldens them. And how quickly
you forget who originally supplied them with arms (hint : Not the
U.S.)
\_ Who?
\_ The world is a lot more complicated than your little throw away
one liner. Who are our "enemies" and who determines that? Do you
have an "enemies" list and how can I get on it? Or off of it,
for that matter, since it appears from your statement that
there is no way.
\_ [Discussion of Israel censored and restored.] |
| 2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45122 Activity:moderate |
11/02 Americans always say their core value is promote democracy.
Besides recent boycott of Hamas, we got this in Nicaragua:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6423982
This, and US past involvement in Iran, Guatemala, Chili, etc.
Are you guys still dumb enough to think USA really believe in
democracy?
\_ Yes, the USA is all about promoting democracy. Our democracy,
right here in the US. We cannot let any foreign government
of any kind keep us from our God-given right to exploit
foreign resources, products, and labor for the lowest cost.
That is how we promote our democracy.
\_ Actually, yes, that's the way it's been going. We are committed
to the democratic cause that all governments should be of the
(American) people, by the (American) people, for the (American)
people.
\_ Hi chicom!
\_ i am still waiting for you comment on this issue of
"promoting democracy world wide" thing.
\_ Why should I defend a straw man you set up? Are you so
dumb that you actually believe what you wrote?
\_ I look at facts, and don't treat democracy as a religion.
you guys need to look at facts more coldly. The fact
is, American talk about democracy, and they believe in
it too. Just that it is never a first priority. The
actual profit and exploit of resources always trump
democracy. This is why we have no problem overthow
democratically elected government in Iran, Guatemula,
Chili, and now Palestine. And we have no issue supporting
dictators, Monachs, Islamtic extremests world wide to
advance US agenda at the time. That, combine with severe
lack of sense of history tend to create very naive &
myopic policies. Yet, at the same time, American don't
realize they are the aggressors, invading countries,
set up unfair trade policies, and torture people world
wide.
\_ 2 things: 1) any nation that puts a philosophy above
the health of the state at all times is suicidal.
2) the neocons in this country share your belief that
we should always ignore #1. that hasn't worked out
that well.
\_ 1. America ALWAYS waging crusade, putting philosophy
abvoe health of the state. Think "Evil Empire"
and "War on Terror."
2. good try, I didn't know you share the same
believe as Adolf Hitler.
\_ Hamas, ah yes, beacon of democracy in the middle east. Personally,
I prefer Chinese style "charge the family for the bullet"
democracy. None of that messy voting or listening to the peasants.
\_ given the choice of Chinese style government verus American-style
democracy in Iraq, and Bosnia, I take Chinese style government
any day. It seems successful democracy need to go through
a period of genocide. America, Turkey, Bosnia, Iraq.
Democracy is great, but given the choice, I prefer avoid
genocide at any cost.
\_ "at any cost". Yes, safety above all else at all times.
The direct path to slavery. A good call if you want to
live in chains and die at the whim of any passing
government official. In all seriousness, if you really
believe what you said, you're not only in the wrong country,
you're in the wrong culture. No where in the West has a
place for that kind of thinking. And taking a quick look at
the standard of living for free people vs. enslaved people
around the world, you'll find a lot more of the enslaved
trying to get to free countries than the opposite. But
that just makes plenty of room for you in your oppressive
country of choice. That'll be the last choice you make.
\_ No where in the West? my friend, let me kindly remind
you something. This "Western" culture which values
basic rights of men traditionally ONLY apply to WHITEs.
This is the reason why just a couple years after America
declare its independence, it offers troops to *CRUSH*
Haiti's independence from French rule. This is also
the reason why we defeated Nazi's occupation of France,
yet *SUPPORT* French occupation of Algeria and so-called
"indochina."
Do I believe personal freedom? yes. Do I believe these
fredom includes political participations? After I've
seen half dozens of countries/regions either fell
into sectarian violence or rise in ethnic tensions,
I am not sure any more. It is easy for *YOU* to say
Iraqis are better off today than under Saddam's rule.
Try to live in Iraq (outside the green zone) for two weeks
you might get a sense of what I am getting at.
What you don't get is that freedom to participate in
political process is something "nice to have." but it
is by no means a necesscity. Food, shelters,
personal SAFETY all take precedent. Americans who
lives in the comfort of their own country certainly
don't understand this. This is why Americans decided
that consitution, election is more important than security.
And at this rate, American is just going to leave and let
the violence taken its course. The REALLY sad part is
that most Americans STILL DIDN'T learn from this lesson
which already cost hundres of thousands of lives.
\_ Yes, I see the U.S. flag waving everywhere I go. I know the sun
never sets on it. I see how we directly vote for our govern't
just like a republic should. Despite all of this I can easily
see that Communism is such a successful sys, that I don't know why
we don't have it here. Yes, I don't know how or why a bigger
country would try to make itself richer off a poorer country.
I mean that's downright wrong - we should give away our all $
\_ link:csua.org/u/hd8
\_ Hey chicom, here's a more interesting question. In order to be
"pro-democracy" should the US support Hugo Chavez, as the elected
leader of Argentina, or be against him because he is dismantling
the Argentinian Democracy?
\_ "I love *you*, but I *don't* love _you_!" "But! We are the
same in all ways! Logical inconsistency! Brain is frying!
Mordron save us!" Bvvvvvrrrrrrr, click.
\_ Argentina? Hugo Chavez? There are adults speaking here.
\_ he is one of 60% of Americans who don't know where is Mexico
on a world map. give him a break. |
| 2006/9/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:44484 Activity:kinda low |
9/21 US Health Care system gets a "D" from the fucking non-profit,
non-partisan Commonwealth Fund
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20060921/bs_bw/tc20060921053503
\_ The report is flawed. It does not discuss the fucking most important
\_ The report is flawed. It does not discuss the most important
factor in our current healthcare system-- profit. Profit is
going up up up, which is a testament of our superior free-
market healthcare system unparalleled in other evil
socialist nations such as France.
\_ Right the fuck on! --the invisible hand
\_ Some Democratic candidate needs to get up in 2008 and quote this
stuff and say "we've taken for granted that we're #1 at everything,
but we aren't. let's stop trying to improve other nations and fix
but we aren't. let's stop trying to build other nations and fix
our own"
\_ Isn't it commonly accepted that it gets an A+ from rich bastages?
\_ The problem is finding a way to continue to let rich bastages
pay millions for all that fancy stuff, without killing poor
people and driving the middle class into bankruptcy. If we
do this, we'll be the only country that does--but why not try?
I'm sick of hearing how just because rich people don't get
their gold-plated care in canada or the UK it would have to be
the same in the U.S. So what if they can't do it? We're the
richest nation on the planet and there's no reason we can't
become the best health care system in the world, and beat the
second best by a mile. Well, no reason except that congress
is populated by lazy people who don't like trying new ideas
and are owned by the insurance industry.
\_ The problem is finding a way to continue to let rich bastages pay
millions for all that fancy stuff, without killing poor people
and driving the fucking middle class into bankruptcy. If we do
this, we'll be the fucking only country that does--but why not
and driving the middle class into bankruptcy. If we do
this, we'll be the only country that does--but why not
try? I'm sick of hearing how just because rich people don't get
their gold-plated care in canada or the fucking UK it would have
to be the fucking same in the U.S. So what if they can't do it?
We're the richest nation on the fucking planet and there's no
reason we can't become the fucking best health care system in the
their gold-plated care in canada or the UK it would have
to be the same in the U.S. So what if they can't do it?
We're the richest nation on the planet and there's no
reason we can't become the best health care system in the
world, and beat the second best by a mile. Well, no reason
except that congress is populated by lazy people who don't like
trying new ideas and are owned by the fucking insurance industry.
trying new ideas and are owned by the insurance industry.
\_ I'll give you a reason we can't: momentum.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/7031/print-sec1.cfm
16% of 2004 GDP is health care.
\_ We're the richest nation on the planet as long as you don't
look at our massive debt.
\_ We're the fucking richest nation on the planet as long as you
don't look at our massive debt. We're the fucking biggest
debtor nation so technically that makes us the fucking poorest
\_ We're the richest nation on the planet as long as you
don't look at our massive debt. We're the biggest
debtor nation so technically that makes us the poorest
in some ways.
\_ 1) to whom do we owe our debt? 2) how much do we
give away in foreign aid?
\_ To the Chinese, Japense, Europeans, Middle East,
a quickly rising chunk ...
We are transferring about 1% of our assets to
foreigners every year thanks to the almost $1
trillion dollar trade deficit. We give away
about $11 billion a year in foreign aid, a sum
dwarfed by our twin deficits, how is that relevant?
\_ So as long as we continue to grow the economy at
greater than 1%/year we're ok?
\- the money the govt spends on foreign aid
is irrelevant to the us economy or the
govt's budget. however, there are things
interesting about how the us govt does
choose to allocate that aid. note that
about 1/3 of the budget it to two countries:
israel and egypt. somewhere in the 5-10%
range is essentially "the drug war".
note also a bunch of this aid is tied to
buying stuff back from the US. israel
has a bunch of special things going on
as well. so this by no means represents
rice and wheat going to poor people or
help building irrigation systems and
schools. |
| 2006/9/6-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:44285 Activity:nil |
9/6 The media and the Israel/Palestinian conflict
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys
\_ Holy crap! This is the first thing I've ever seen that makes me
respect the Palestinians at all. Manipulating the media whores
with simple street theater--genius! I'm not about to go off
supporting the Palestinian "cause" any time soon, but this sure
beats terrorism, and is probably also more effective.
\_ This is precisely how things like goatse.cz got spread around.
Label your stuff, or expect people to ignore you.
\_ What's goatse.cz? Anyway, thanks for the advice. I added
a description. -op
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatse
\_ Under the def of of "Too Much Information" should be a ref
to that page. |
| 2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:44274 Activity:nil |
9/5 http://tinyurl.com/hzkaq (nypost) "HOPING ISRAEL CAN BE DEFEATED" Some choice quotes from Muslim "moderates" in the region. \_ it's so sad that it's kind of funny. the sad part is that 1. Hezbollah won the hearts and mind of Arabs not by defeating Israel, but just by put up with a fight and not disintegrate into pieces. 2. This armed group, not even a national army, is probably the strongest military unit in the Arab world. If I am an Arab, I will be so ashamed of myself. \_ I thought this too until I heard a commentator say "Hizbullah fighters are the heroes of the Arab world now. They're the only ones who have stood up to Israel and 'won.'" (my quotes) We need a way for Arabs to save face in order to have peace. \_ The only face saving they want is the kind of peace brought about by the aftermath of a second Holocaust. Did you not read the linked article? The only thing they respect is pure force. Muslim culture never left the 8th century. |
| 2006/8/30-9/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44210 Activity:nil |
8/30 Jewish columnist responds to excuse that Hezbollah hid among civilians
http://csua.org/u/gt6 (Wash Post)
\_ Looky there, a self-hating Jew...
\_ self-hating Jews := don't agree with everything IDF do |
| 2006/8/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44053 Activity:nil 97%like:44039 |
8/17 Sad but true. NYPost oped on Hezbollah/Israel.
http://tinyurl.com/zsgod (nypost.com) |
| 2006/8/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44039 Activity:nil 97%like:44053 |
8/16 Sad but true. NYPost oped on Hezbollah/Israel.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/hezbollah_3__israel_0_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm |
| 2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44014 Activity:low |
8/15 See, you had nothing to worry about. The outcome of the
Israel-Lebanon conflict was entirely predictable. That is, all
powerbrokers were unanimous in not wanting to draw Syria/Iran into it,
risking a regional war, although there was plenty of propagandizing /
throwing mud in people's faces along with the dead civilians:
7/13 Regardless of who's right or wrong (good luck on that), predictions
on the outcome of the Israelis hitting Lebanon? -John
[\_ ...]
\_ There are three objectives:
(1) Occupy a Israel-dictated buffer zone (again),
(2) Indicate that future kidnappings will be met with a
disproportione use of force (you'll hurt more than me), and
(3) Getting the soldiers back.
\_ The most likely outcome is a temporary ceasefire, with Israel
holdingonto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
Hezbollah fires another rocket into Israel while the press writes
"wasn't there supposed to be a ceasefire?"
\_ No. I don't think anyone predicted that Israel's government would
chicken out and leave themselves looking like weak and inept
idiots. Now Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and every other
psychotic crackpot with weapons in the Middle East is talking
tough and spoiling for another round. The weakness and dithering
on the part of Olmert's government only guaranteed that there will
be another war, it will be sooner than later and it will make this
Lebanon thing look like the minor skirmish it was. That's my
prediction. And oh yeah, *when* Iran gets nukes they will hit
Israel who will respond by destroying as much of the Middle East
as possible from Iran to Libya.
\_ you sure that Iran will nuke Israel *when* it gets nukes?
the moment Israel is nuked is the moment other govts lose their
favorite scapegoat. I also think the U.S. will finish any job
that Israel does not as far as nuking the aggressor.
that Israel does not as far as taking out the nuclear capability
of the aggressor, whatever it takes.
\_ Scapegoat? They want Israel destroyed much more than they
want a scapegoat. Whoever manages that will be the hero of
the muslim world for all time up there with Saladin and maybe
even Mohammad himself. I make no predictions about what the
US will do if nukes go off in the ME.
\_ The Iranian leadership wants Israel destroyed much more
than it wants a scapegoat? I disagree with that. Random
terrorist group and their supporters want that? Okay.
Who controls future nukes? The former.
I predict Iranian nukes, if Iran ever gets them, will be
used as a "if you fuck with us, we'll really fuck you over"
deterrent, and securing of those nukes will be at or better
than Pakistan.
\_ So you hear all the crap the Iranians are spewing from
the highest levels of their government about destroying
Israel and think they're bluffing? Iran doesn't need
nukes to hold Israel off. Israel isn't doing anything
to the Iranians. Iran is not at risk from Israeli
attack. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion
but time will tell.
\_ When you have mutually assured destruction, what
other conclusion can you come to?
\_ You have a religious regime that doesn't care if
they die. They welcome it. They preach it. You
do not have mutually assued destruction's cold
war era effect going on with Iran. Without MAD
the only conclusion you can come to is they mean
what they say when they say they're going to
destroy Israel. They don't mean at the next
Olympics. They mean they're going to destroy
Israel. Why don't you believe what they say?
Why would they say what they've said on a regular
basis if they didn't mean it? *When* Iran gets
nukes Israel will be nuked. Whatever is left of
the military is going to nuke everything in the
entire Middle East without regard for the niceties
of "oh gosh it was an unknown terrorist with a
bomb on a truck, we'll do an ivnestigation and
get back to you on it".
\_ I will grant you that the theocracy in Iran
wants and continues to advocate the destruction
of Israel. However, they also want the
continuation of their precious Iranian way of
life. The mullahs, imams, and ayatollahs know
they have a very sweet thing going now in their
locked down theocracy, and they have no
intention of messing it up. Their first goal is
the preservation of their own rule, followed by
the destruction of Israel and restoration of
Palestinian rule; it is due to their fear of
unilateral destruction that they continue to
move through proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah, Sadr)
rather than act directly (i.e., deployment of
the Iranian army). When Iran gets nukes, expect
a period of retrenchment followed by a
resurgence in their support of their proxies.
Oh, and a hell of a lot more rhetoric.
\_ Really it all comes down to just how crazy
do you think the Iranians really are. I
look at how they run their internal affairs
as well as foreign and they're either insane
or incompetent to an insane degree. Either
way I think we can agree that a nuclear
armed Iran is just about the worst thing
possible for the world as a whole, not just
the region even if it doesn't come down to
a nuclear fire storm.
\_ Right. I think it comes down to whether
you think they're suicidal-crazy or just
crazy-crazy. Cf. Kim Jong Il: crazy, but
also very much attached to his life and
the preservation thereof.
\_ doubt it'll be Iran, but rather some other nameless terrorist
group that 'got them from somewhere' that remains unnamed,
to leave israel with nobody specific to retaliate against.
of the aggressor, whatever it takes.
\_ for that matter, nameless terrorist group might as well
get the nuke from pakistan / n korea / russia
7/13 Regardless of who's right or wrong (good luck on that), predictions
on the outcome of the Israelis hitting Lebanon? -John
[\_ ...]
\_ There are three objectives:
(1) Occupy a Israel-dictated buffer zone (again),
(2) Indicate that future kidnappings will be met with a
disproportione use of force (you'll hurt more than me), and
(3) Getting the soldiers back.
\_ The most likely outcome is a temporary ceasefire, with Israel
holding onto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
holdingonto a buffer zone in south Lebanon and airstrikes whenever
Hezbollah fires another rocket into Israel while the press writes
"wasn't there supposed to be a ceasefire?"
\_ Why do you think Israel invaded Lebanon? It's to show
that they are not above taking revenge on governments
supporting 'nameless terrorist groups'. I think Israel
would use it as a chance to nuke every fucking enemy
they ever had, involved or not.
\_ I don't think there will be an 'Israel' left post-nuke
so much as a few subs with MERVS and whatever nukes
survive buried out in the sand where the soliders
have orders to fire if Telaviv is ever blown up. But
my call is that every arab capitol plus Mecca, Medina,
and the key oil fields and refinery/shipping cities are
all dust.
\_ It's a really small step from that to the end of
human civilization as we currently understand it.
All of the scenarios for "limited" nuclear war are
pretty dicey. Can you imagine what would happen to
the world if a nuclear war leveled the middle east?
You thought gas was expensive before...
Or are you just looking forward to being Mad Max?
\_ Yes, I can imagine all that. I didn't say I'm
looking forward to any of it. I don't base my
predictions on what I'd like to happen. I base
them on what I believe will happen given my
understanding of the situation and the people
involved. What is the point of making a bogus
prediction based on what I'd like to happen?
That isn't a prediction, it is just sticking
one's head in the ground. I don't have to like
it to believe it. |
| 2006/8/11-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43978 Activity:nil |
8/11 http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp Pro-Israel organization wages propaganda war \_ The narrator's smug tone makes me want to go blow up Israel myself. \_ The narrator probably isn't even Israeli. Do you have any issue with the content, or only his tone? \_ gasp. one propaganda war to battle another. Where will it all end? \_ In my pants. Huh huh. -beavis |
| 2006/8/1 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43859 Activity:nil |
8/1 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284163,00.html Israeli news editor says fuck ya'll to world reaction to Qana massacre |
| 2006/8/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43854 Activity:nil |
8/1 Would you support stop of arm shipments to Israel?
\_ No.
\_ Wouldn't they still be fine? I mean I was under the impression their
economy even w/out aid >>> palestine & lebanon's economy.
\_ but they have to compete with the rest of the Arab nations, too.
-tom |
| 2006/7/31-8/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43844 Activity:moderate |
7/31 Can you guys please take the Israel/Hezbollah/whatever screaming match
to Sproul Plaza? It was entertaining, but you're really not
convincing each other. -John
\_ you are saying NOW because for the first time you actually feel
something IDF has done which is not right?
\_ _Huh_? No, I'm saying the discussion is old, pointless, and
a waste of precious, intellectual MOTD space. -John
\_ Intellectual MOTD space? When did we get that installed?
\_ And how do I get my quota increased? -gm
\_ Agreed. I'm all for trading actual information, but this has
devolved into less signal than noise. --erikred
\_ The "actual information" is the subject of debate.
\_ Let me see if I can sum this up: Hezbollah's launching
rockets into Israel and abducted two Israeli soldiers;
Israel is bombing southern Lebanon and Beirut and has blown
up the airport and the road out of Lebanon into Syria as
well as some UN observers. Israel is claiming that it has
the right to defend itself, which no reasonable human beings
are debating, although everyone who is not Israel is
\_ Correct, but without taking
a close look at who "everyone" is" you miss an
important point: "everyone" would be perfectly happy
if Israel was wiped out, so just how valid is the
opinion of "everyone"? Also, I suspect "everyone"
would have a very different view if it was "everyone's"
country under attack from Hezbollah instead of Israel.
In fact, "everyone" deals quite harshly with their own
local terrorist groups but has a remarkable different
take on Israel's problems. See how hard it is to
provide a list of facts? The facts without context are
useless and easily manipulated. Without context and a
full array of facts the events quickly disolve into
propaganda and PR and moral equivalency.
\_ "everyone" is a classic weasel word. You took
way more space than was necessary to say that.
Check out the wikipedia (I know, I know) definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
\_ I was also pointing out the hypocritical nature
of those in the "everyone" category. Their
opinions are thus invalid in a discussion based
on morals and ethics. If you want to discuss
things in terms of pure might-makes-right then
yes, "everyone" can punish Israel quite harshly
economically and in other ways for engaging in
more self-defense than "they" deem proper for a
Jewish state.
suggesting that the response has been somewhat over-
enthusiastic. Everyone apart from Israel is calling for a
cease-fire. Israel has declared a moratorium on the bombing
except on sites where missiles are about to be launched.
The two hostages have not yet been returned. This appears to
be the actual information. The part about whose fault this
all is and who's more evil than who seems to be the part
that's being shouted about. Did I miss anything? --erikred
\_ yes. you need to be a bit more objective by not
leave out important facts, such as the number of Israelli
civilian / military personnel killed, and the number of
Lebanonese civilian / Hezbollah killed. You are implying
the casualties are on both sides, but in reality it's more
lop-sided. Also, you may also want to includes all the
IFRC convoys and fleeing trucks being bombed as well.
\_ No, I think you need to be more objective -- the things
you're suggesting are clearly subject to dispute and
therefore not suitable as 'facts' at this time. Nice
thread hijack attempt, though.
\_ The huge number of Lebanonese civilians are killed
by IDF, that is fact (huge compare with number of
Israeli citizens died of Hezbollah attack). IFRC
convoys are being bombed by IDF, fleeing trucks are
being bombed by IDF. These are all facts. Note
that I didn't mention anything about why IDF did
so. *THAT* is a subjective stuff. You are
being Jewish first, fact seconds, and trying to
leave out any facts that you deemed unfavorable to
Israeli cause.
\_ stop confusing me facts!!
\_ More actual information: Hezbollah's rockets are killing
civilians in Israel. Israel's bombs are killing civilians
in Lebanon. The part about whether the civilians on this
side or that side are actually "innocent" civilians are
probably being shouted about also.
\_ again, this implies equal number of civilians are killed
on both side. While actual number may be in disbute,
it's only fair to point out the lopside-ness of the
casualties.
\_ How is it any different than any other heated topic on the motd?
Let's not talk about politics, climate change, or anything else
that might get someone's knickers in a bunch. No one is forcing
anyone here to read anything.
\_ It's not -- but there's nothing wrong with a reasonably polite
request to change the subject since it's clear that neither
side is going to listen to the other.
\_ What are the odds anyone is going to stop discussing the
topic because the OP is no longer entertained by it? If the
OP no longer cares to follow the threads related to an on-
going world event, the OP is welcome to skip them. I skip
plenty of threads of no interest to me without asking the
participants to stop. Tipping etiquette was of no interest
to me at all and went on for several screens over several
days. No one asked them to stop, nor deleted the thread
until it was dead.
\_ Tipping Etiquette....right. Whatever you say.
\_ It went on for almost a week and spanned several
screens and was boring as dry paint but I didn't
whine about it. You couldn't have missed it. Maybe
you found it fun and exciting and intellectually
stimulating?
\_ It was a long discussion, as opposed to a series of
constantly rehashed points that don't serve to
convince anyone of anything, least of all the
participants. -John
\_ No, it was pretty much the same rehashed tipping
discussion as the previous times with at least one
of the same participants, no change in attitude, no
new useful information and no one convincing anyone
of anything. Easily summarised as, "The elitist
entertain-me crowd vs. the proletariat". Class
warfare: yawn.
\_ Actually, you're wrong, but since you're being
an obtuse idiot, I won't bother your tiny brain
with the details. -John
\_ shrug. I just press space bar and skip it if it's not interesting. |
| 2006/7/31-8/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43841 Activity:high |
7/30 Hey, Israelis, supporters of Israel, this should make you proud:
(picture of dead terrorist from NY Times, ranging from 9 month old
to 95 years old)
http://tinyurl.com/o3dhk
For those who don't remember, "accident" of similiar scale happened
10 years ago in the same town, Qana, in a UN refugee compound, when
Israelis was using anti-personnel shell (you know, those kind that
explode in the air for maximum damage) attacking the UN compound.
And you said this kind of attack has a moral high ground compare with
sucide bomber in a city bus?
\_ Oopsie! A very inconvenient 8 hours between the attack and the
building falling apart. Stop storing explosives in homes and homes
will stop being attacked. And hey, how about returning the
soldiers, disarming Hezbollah, and stop firing hundreds of rockets
every day at random into civilian areas in Israel and terrorist
sites in Lebanon will stop being attacked. You conveniently forget
that this border has been peaceful for 6 years until Hezbollah, who
was supposed to have disarmed, built up a huge weapons stockpile
under UN supervision. Ignoring context and history is a key
elemental to propaganda like yours.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
\_ all these 36 kids died in Qana deserve their fate because
Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers? How many Hezbollah soldiers
are being tortured by IDF everyday?
\_ Go look up "human shields", troll.
\_ peace might of still be there if Israel don't overreact.
400+ civilian died for the 2 soldiers? you are giving Arabs
excuse to toss nuclear bomb at Israel in the future.
\_ Ha, you mean the excuses they've been using for the last
50 years won't do? The surrounding countries have never
needed an excuse to kill Jews.
\_ Hezbollah exists only to attack and destroy Israel. They
don't need an excuse. What gave you the idea they had any
other reason for existing or anything short of the complete
destruction of Israel would get them to stop attacking?
\_ Please give me the # dead from bus / pizza joint bombs vs.
a military action gone awry. One is a targeted attack on civilians
the other might have gone astray. It's like second-guessing
a police shooting. 3 secs to decide, 30 years for everyone else
to pass judgement. Let's see Hezbollahs' "restraint" duing
a unilateral cease-fire.
\_ Israel has killed 20x civllians in Lebanon in the current
conflict as Hizbolla has killed via rocket attacks into
Israel.
\_ When terrorists stop using their own people as human shields
and attacking sovereign states across borders civilian deaths
will stop on all sides.
\_ that is my point. For some reason, Israeli's "targeted" strike
has killed more innocent people than Hezbollah and Hamas and
Islamic Jihad combined.
\_ This is a function of tools at their disposal, rather
than intention. But a state is reasonably held to a higher
standards. Intention cound but it isn't everything.
And right and wrong isnt zero sum. Thant's why this is
complicated.
complicated. I actually think some of what is currently
going on is "more excusable" than some of their past
policies such as the "2x4" policy or bulldozing homes
policy.
\_ I agree with you, function of tools. This is why Arabs
are desperately want a nuclear bomb and eager to react
disproportionaly. I am not justifying Hezbollah's action,
I am just want to point out that when you see Hezbollah
fighters slip into a refugee compound and decided to use
anti-personnel shell, I wouldn't consider that "doing
everything they can to prevent civilian casualty."
From most of non pro-Israel point of view, Israel has
lost its moral high-ground a long time ago; those who
set off bombs in buses are no differ than those IDF shell
raining on fleeing convoys.
\_ For most of "non pro-Israel point of view" Israel lost
its moral high-ground in 1948, 1967 and 1973. How dare
they defend themselves? It is outrageous! Here's
something to consider: If all of Israel's neighbors
were completely disarmed what would Israel do to them?
If Israel was completely disarmed what would her
neighbors do to Israel? If Israel was safe from attack,
there would be peace and trade. If Israel was disarmed
there would be war and genocide. Think about that for
a while.
\_ When Japan invade China in 1930's, their excuse was
to defend itself.
\_ Japan's PR has nothing to do with Israel's
reality. Better luck next time. You're *really*
stretching it now. Why don't you just go all the
way and compare them to the Nazis? You're only
a small step away. Go for it! |
| 2006/7/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43806 Activity:nil |
7/26 http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.observers/index.html "The timeline provided CNN by a U.N. officer in Lebanon showed the first bomb exploded about 200 yards from the U.N. outpost at 1:20 p.m. Tuesday, prompting the first call ... with the Israeli military. The officer said they were assured by the Israeli liaison that he would stop the attacks. A series of about nine more bombs hit within 100 to 400 yards from the observers over the next several hours, with a call to the Israeli military following each explosion. The U.N. base at Noqoura lost contact with the outpost at 7:40 p.m., apparently the time of the direct hit, the officer said." http://tinyurl.com/r8zww (Wash Post) Senior Irish officer in UN observation force (not in the destroyed bunker) said to have made six phone calls in hours before. Ireland files official protest with Israel. "He warned the Israelis that they were shelling in very close proximity to the post, and his warnings were very specific, explicit, detailed and stark. Obviously those warnings went unheeded." http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/world/26cnd-nations.html UN official says no Hezbollah firing was taking place in the area around the observation post in the six hours of phone calls and air/artillery strikes. \_ why are UN soldiers within 100 yrds of hezbolla targets? \_ it's my understanding Israel told the UN it wouldn't touch the UN observation posts \_ good try. UN Observation post has been there forever. \_ shielding hezbollah targets 100 yards away forever? \_ i am just saying that observation post has been there for a long long time and Israel is fully aware of its position. the fact that this post was destroyed by an coordinated artiley shelling and ariel bombing, it is quite obvious that this incident is anything but "accidental." \_ Israel didn't say it was an accident. They said "we're sorry we killed the UN guys". If the UN stopped shielding terrorists, UN guys would stop dying. You're aware that the pullout agreement 6 years ago said the UN was supposed to disarm Hezbollah, not watch them build up a bigger military stock pile than ever before. Where was the UN report on the last six years' of buildup? These guys are obsevers, so what were the observing and what'd they do about what they observed? This is the fault of the UN for putting those guys there to die. It was inevitable given the situation the UN created. \_ Sounds like an excerpt from the "Demons and Angels" Red Dwarf: "The poor wretch. He has a faulty gun. He has accidentally shot me five times. Oh, how I love him!" \_ I've been saying that Israeli has a history of attacking UN facilities in the past. All of them supposely "accidental." Does make you wonders... \_ Got a list of dates and events? \_ This is how IDF "do their best they can" to avoid civilian/UN casualties. The reality is, they just do whatever they want and they know US will back them. \_ No, it is a message to the UN: Stop shielding terrorists and your people won't get killed. Not that Khofi gives a damn about a few random guys on the ground. \_ One of the UN observer is a Chinese. Chinese embassy has send a very strong protest to Israel. Such protest is probably going to be ignored completely and IDF is probably going to be 'business as usual.' \_ As if. The Chinese want Israeli weapons and couldn't care less about one dead guy. \_ much of Israel/Chinese weapon program has been suspended by USA. secondly, remember the Hezbollah missile that hit Israeli warship? that is a Chinese design. Chinese has a significant weapon market share in the Middle East and they can REALLY stir up the pot if they choose to. \_ That's funny, the UNIFIL says Hezbollah was firing from that position. http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/unifilpress.htm http://tinyurl.com/s6bdr (Herald Sun) \_ Israel has no right to shell and bomb UN site for any reason, even if Hezbollah was firing *FROM* that position. Then again, Israel is no friend of UN for the past 50+ years. \_ Wow, that's really nutty. So why would the UN allow Hezbollah to fire at Israel from a UN site? And Israel is supposed to just let it happen? That would have been a much better troll if you were less black'n'white nutty about it. \_ 1. these observers are unarmed. 2. it's not at UN's interest for Hezbollah to fire from UN observation post 3. UN observation post is by no mean a safe heavan for Hezbollah. 4. Israel has been repeatly warned UN in the past that UN observer tend to be more sympathic to Palistanian and Lebonese... so you figures. \_ 1) so what? 2) sure it is 3) it isnt *now*, it was 4) uh... what? Yes we know the UN is biased against Israel. And? |
| 2006/7/25-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43797 Activity:nil |
7/25 http://csua.org/u/gj1 (yahoo.com) UN spokesman says Israeli airstrike made a direct hit on observation post manned by Indian soldiers, with unspecified casualties. Also noted were 14 other incidents of "firing" close to this position, even during the rescue op (probably a "fog of war" incident - unlike the previous rocketing of vehicles in South Lebabon, where RoE ended up being "does the car have military age males in it and is it coming from a Hezbolla town? yes? then blow that fucker up!"). \_ judging from Israel's past behavior, it's more like an warning to UN than "fog of war:" "you better shut up and stop reporting the killing Lebanonese civilians, or these kind of 'accident' will keep happening to any of your observation post." \_ What past behavior is that? War isn't a video game where every one on the field is marked red or blue. By your reasoning all "friendly fire" incidents are intentional acts of murder. \_ no, only the incidents where the target contacted the person firing multiple times before they got blown up. \_ they weren't the target. the hezbollah in the area using them as a shield were. and again, war isn't a video game. the orders to stop shelling could have come down the line but not made it to the guys firing the shells. but it really doesnt matter and theres no reason to find out the truth; anything israel does is automatically intentional and a warcrime, video game, etc. do you still believe the beach explosion in gaza a number of weeks ago was israeli artillery? |
| 2006/7/24-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43771 Activity:low |
7/24 I got a problem and I need you guys' advice on how to help without
myself being locked up in Cuba somewhere. Hezbollah runs a lot of
hospitals, bomb shelterss and other Humanitarian organization.
Right now, there are about 600,000 accused terrorist being displaced
by Israeli forces. 200,000 of them are already fled to Syria, which
is not a wealthy nation at first place and its subject to US economic
embargo since 2003. If I want to help those what I call refugees
(jews [ed. Israelis] probably would disagree), where can I send money to without
being accused of providing material support to Terrorist / Terrorist
Organization? I don't think International Redcross has a strong
presence there. Thanks
\_ You were sounding reasonable up to the anti-Jewish remark. Now
I'm going to log your entry and report you to DHS.
\_ Medecins Sans Frontieres is my suggestion--they're generally
politically neutral and do good work. http://www.msf.org -John
\- i believe the RedCross/Crescent is interested in going to
south lebanon, but israel has refused to "guarantee" safe
passage, but they have been willing to notify hizbolla
if the RC wants to head down. in this case i dunno if there
is really a difference between "guarantee safe passage"
and a cease fire. i dont believe israel is saying "we will
physicallyt block you from going in" but saying "you take
physically block you from going in" but saying "you take
your chances".
\_ A lot of people take issue with the RC for its perceived
"hands-off" approach. -John
\_ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/25/MNGJCK4N0A1.DTL
\_ http://csua.org/u/gj5 (sfgate.com)
How hands-off should they be?
\_ Don't ask me, I don't know. However, the RC does not,
as a matter of policy, publicize its findings from
prisoner camps, that sort of thing. They do
provide ambulance and emergency care services, which
is a Good Thing, I wasn't thinking of that. -John
\- wow. has israel claimed that was a mistake
or "we're not going to make exceptions for
trucks that say Red *"? i can see they may
believe some civilians are helping Hizbolla
on the sly by playing a covert military role
but surely they arent saying the RC is helping
Hizbolla.
\_ If it was a mistake, it was a pretty deliberate one.
According to the red cross personel, they made a
second pass to take out the second ambulance. Did
you see the pic in the article? Dead center on the
cross. That's pulitzer material...
\_ Why not? They helped the PLO last time.
\_ Dude, that's a serious charge. Please provide a
URL. TIA.
\_ It isn't a "charge". It is historical fact.
The RC showed up in ships to take the PLO to
Tunis. It wasn't a secret. It was broadcast
around the world. I still recall seeing the
PLO thugs firing guns in the air in
celebration of the RC rescuing them from the
Israeli army. I believe that's why the first
thing the Israelis did this time was establish
a navy blockade and bomb the bridges and roads
to Syria. It wasn't about keeping their
soldiers from being taken out of Lebanon, but
to prevent escape for Hezbollah thugs the way
they made a mistake with the PLO.
\_ An "historical" "fact" that no one here has
ever heard. Provide. A. Link.
\_ Sorry you can't remember but that doesn't
make me a liar. It just means that you
can't remember. From the Washington Post
archives:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/125498852.html?dids=125498852&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS&fmac=&date=Aug+31%2C+1982&author=By+Andriana+Ierodiaconou+Special+to+The+Washington+Post&desc=Greece+Welcomes+Wounded+Palestinian+Guerrillas
And here's one for the gun fire I said
I remembered:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/127698492.html?dids=127698492:127698492&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&fmac=&date=Aug+22%2C+1982&author=By+Leon+Dash+Washington+Post+Foreign+Service&desc=400+Arrive+In+Cyprus
\_ First, thank you for posting the links
as I requested. However, apart from
these two articles in the Washington
Post, I can't seem to find any other
context for this. Why did the RC
evacuate the PLO guerillas? Can you
provide a link with historical
context? This is fascinating, but in
and of itself demonstrates nothing.
\_ Oh, come on. You have any idea how
long it took to find an obscure
reference to a pre-web story? All
the content from that time is
behind for-pay links, but along
the way I was wading through
literally hundreds of pages that
described the entire war in
tedious detail from all
perspectives using such uncommon
search terms as "beirut", "plo",
"red cross", and "1982". The
wikipedia entry posted below has a
very limited but not entirely
untrue version of events since
you're incapable of performing the
most basic search, I suggest you
start there, but in no way does
the story end there. That's the
super cliff notes version of
events. If you really care you'll
go do your own reading.
\_ Thanks for the bile. I already
answered myself in the post
below.
\_ Bile? Sensitive much?
\_ After all that, you're
asking me?
\_ After all what? Its
not my fault you're a
lazy ass and I called
you on it. That isnt
bile, that's truth. Get
a thicker skin. The
truth shouldnt hurt
so much.
you on it while also
suggesting you do some
real research if you
actually want to know
what happened in Beirut
in 1982.
\_ Niggah, please. I
googled the terms in
your archived WP
story and got bupkis
so I politely asked
for more info. Then
I found and posted
the info below. Then
you accused me of
not doing research.
So I informed you
that I had. So now,
you know that I know
that your statement
implying that the RC
was aiding PLO was
grossly overstated.
\_ And now, the rest of the story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
Although not specified here, it
appears that the the Red Cross
transported the PLO to Tunis at the
request of Americans, the French,
and the Italians, not simply as a
favor to the PLO. |
| 2006/7/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43761 Activity:low |
7/21 This is the best article I've found describing the recent Lebanon
escalation and its repercussions
http://csua.org/u/ghv (Wash Post, a mouthpiece for liberals, opinion)
\_ Faster, please.
\_ Faster and faster fast it goes
Hutalahey Hutalahey
\_ Faster, faster, fast it goes
Playing the sitar with my toes
Hutalahey, oh
Oheyoh
Hutalahey Hutalahey
Hutalahey, oh-oh-ey-oh
\_ I can understand Israel's right to defend itself, but this
whole thing is just stupid. It's one thing to act tough
when you are being attacked, but their response is
disproportionate. This bullying attitude toward their
neighbors will create more hatred toward Israel (and
therefore the United States) throughout the world.
Personally I think the only way they can make peace with
their neighbors is by helping them out, one way or the
other, instead of bomb the shit out of them at every
opportunity.
\_ They're doing a good job with their Pre-emptive Warfare,
because fighting evil is a good thing. God Bless.
because fighting evil is a good thing.
\_ you are funny.
\_ ie "Can't we all just get along"
\_ Um, you do know that Israel was one of the biggest donors to
pre-Hamas Palestine, right? They repeatedly tried to help the
bits of the country that _weren't_ attacking them. And
regardless, the sworn policy of Hamas and Hezbollah calls for
the destruction of Israel. Not "calls for that because Israel's
been mean lately", but "has called for that since Israel's
creation" There's not a lot of room for diplomacy with those
groups, and when those groups are in power, officially or
otherwise... what do you do?
\_ I don't know, but you can't seriously support what Isreal
is about to do - it is a collosal strategic mistake, no
matter what your politics. !pp
\_ What exactly is Israel about to and and why in your
expert-in-history-of-the-middle-east-and-military-stuff
is it a collosal mistake?
\_ Of course it is. The previous post was contesting
"...help neighbors out instead of bombing them at every
opportunity..." They've done both.
\_ the stragetic mistake Israel made, IMHO, is Israel's deliberate
act of punishing / weakening Lebanonese government. More stable
and wealthy Lebanon government it is, less justification for
Hezbolla to keep their arm. In fact, one would argue the reason
Hezbolla kidnapped Israeli soldier WAS to create incident to
justify their status quo. By destroying the basic infrastrue
Lebanon has build in the past 20 years, Israel is in effect
strengthening Hezbolla.
MAY BE, that is what Israel want, a strong, out of control
Hezbollah that Israel can justify their attack. I simply don't
know.
\_ Hezbollah doesn't help their cause with rocket attacks. It
rather proves Israel's point. Can you imagine rockets
bombarding Mexico from Texas and the US not stopping it?
Hezbollah should not fight back and show Israel to be
the aggressors.
\_ Hezbollah helps their 'cause' a great deal by lobbing
rockets into Israel. Their *only* cause is the complete
destruction of Israel. They don't hide that fact. They
are not in any way ashamed of that. They announced it
proudly to the world. What do you think their cause is?
\_ Lobbing rockets into Israel will only set them back.
It's not like that is going to destroy Israel. However,
it turns international opinion against them and proves
that Lebanon can't or won't control their activities.
Open war with Israel is not going to help Hezbollah at
the moment.
\_ Then why are they focusing their attacks on Lebanese
infrastructure? Bombing the rocket facilities seems
perfectly justified. Bombing highways does not.
\- I'm ceritainly not a knee-jerk israel supporter,
nor have i been following this "accidental war"
very closely, but hizbollah is not a group of nutjobs
at arms length from the lebanese state ... they hold
cabinet-level posts as well as being an appreciable
part of the legislature [10-20%?]. i recognize a weak
govt in a place like lebanon doesnt have complete
control over all parts of the country, but they also
cannot totally take refuge in "what can we do" ... i.e.
to israel's war not just with an outfit of fanatics
israel's war not just with an outfit of fanatics
but to some extent with the state. it's not as clean a
case of nobody expecting the US to distinguish between
the taliban [then the afgan state, more or less] and
al queda, but there is an element of that.
the mexico-texas thing is a strawman. i havent thought
about this deeply but consider the crossboarder
interventions in SE Asia in the 70s ... that might
be a better scenario to mine for what is a comparable
scenario ... china in vietnam, vietnam in cambodia,
khemer rouge, incursions into laos etc. do not taunt
LON NOL.
\_ Bombing the highways and runways prevents Syria from
moving more arms into southern Lebanon.
\- maybe this is a silly question but if israel
has clear evidence that syria and iran are
aiding and abetting HIZBOLLA, how come they
dont do a CPOWELL-style UN presentation with
the smoking gun. i'm not suggesting i or anybody
else doubts the connection, but it seems like
that sort of forces "the world" to confront the
issue ... especially the issue of state involvement
rather than state vs "group of crazies". then israel
can paint this as a proxy war against them by
two states.
\_ It isn't silly but it is naive. Let's say they
have this evidence in a way that is easily
presented to the UN and make the best presentation
the UN has ever seen and now the whole world is
convinced of it. So what? The whole world
already knows and believes Syria and Iran are
supporting terrorist organizations like Hamas
and Hezbollah. Why would the world 'confront'
them over it? Nations exist only for one
reason: to advance their own interests. It is
not in the interests of most of the world to
support Israel or oppose Iran (where their oil
comes from).
\_ I think your extended comments are a bit
naive. There are significant implication of
this being state vs state vs sort of a
"police action" type setting. It can put
Lebanon in the position of taking a postion
on Syrian/Iranian involement. I was looking
for a reply by somebody more knowledgable
about sunni-shiite interest, for example
[like which states are actually kind of
happy to see Hizbolla take a pounding] ...
the it's trivial to say people will act
in their own interest. What is meaningful is
to discuss what those interests are in this
scenario. |
| 2006/7/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43758 Activity:nil |
7/21 U.S. television and print media seem to place less importance on deaths
of Lebanese civilians
http://csua.org/u/ghs (Wash Post blog)
\_ I agree with many of the reader comments posted on this
page. I just wish my writing skill is better so I can
troll the motd with more credible opinions. |
| 2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43685 Activity:nil |
7/17 I heard a good summary of the Middle East problem over the weekend:
If the Arabs didn't have guns, there wouldn't be a war.
If the Israelis didn't have guns, there wouldn't be an Israel.
\_ True. But if the Arabs didn't have guns and the Israelis did, there
would be a very big Israel.
\_ I don't think so. Israel doesn't really have any imperialistic
goals. Israelis are happy with the historic boundaries of
their country. They only occupy more because they have to.
\_ that is one of the funniest thing I've ever heard for a long
long time. First of all, Israli justify their existence
based upon God's promise. And if you impose what God have
promised versus what Israel occupies today, you might agree
with me that current "Israel" is about 1/4 of what God
promised them.
\_ Let's talk about Taiwan, shall we? Or Tibet?
\_ Funny, most Israelis I know think the whole "greater
Israel" thing is a crock and "justify their existence" on
not wanting to live somewhere where their families are
wiped out, either then or now. I also don't see many
Israelis (beyond the crackpots) calling for the
annihilation of their neighboring states for no reason,
but then again I guess that doesn't matter to you. -John
\_ Really? There's a map somewhere? Does God provide GPS
coordinates defining the boundaries?
\_ He speaks directly to Pat Robertson. Sharon got the
coordinates wrong, so God laid the smackdown on him.
\_ Yes, of course God provides the God Positioning System
to the Chosen People.
\_ What are the historic boundaries of Isreal again? Show me
\_ What are the historic boundaries of Israel again? Show me
a map please. And when in history do you want to go? 1950?
1800? 1000? 1000BC? It has hardly been static.
\_ historical border is irrelevant. What is relevant is
the current border, which is as good as how much your
country can afford.
\_ Here's a better question:
What are the boundaries of Israel that the Arabs
would tolerate?
\_ If you mean the current residents of Gaza, the West
Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and several others: none.
There is no amount of land that is ok for Israel to
have. "Push them into the sea" isn't hyperbole.
\_ No, most Palestinians have signed off on the
47 borders of Israel. Or at least they did back
when Arafat was still alive. Maybe he wasn't the
Devil you made him out to be, eh?
\_ The 1947 borders? You mean the ones that were
good only if the Arabs would agree to live
peacefully with Israel but are suicidal if there's
a constant state of war? Oh yeah, those are great
borders... if you're looking to push Israel into
the sea. Afarat was a killer and a thug and the
worst thing possible for his people.
\_ Really? Are the Palestinians now better off
without his leadership? Heck, for that matter,
is Israel?
\_ "The Arabs"? I dunno, didn't Egypt agree to the
67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M of them? I imagine
67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M Arabs? I imagine
it would be hard to get 200M people to agree on anything.
Okay, I just found the treaty between Israel and
Egypt on the web (isn't this informaion superhiway
thingy grand?). It only outlines the Isreal/Egypt
thingy grand?). It only outlines the Israel/Egypt
border, not the whole thing. I bet "The Arabs" would
live with Isreal in its 56 borders, though that is
live with Israel in its 56 borders, though that is
certainly open to debate. Those borders are what
Abbas and his crew have asked for.
Abbas and his crew have asked for. Also, what makes
your question "better" than mine? What is the
"historic" boundary of Isreal???
"historic" boundary of Israel???
\_ Israel occupies its current borders out of
necessity, not out of some imperialist desire.
As someone else said, they could occupy more
land if they wanted to. I do not think that the
Arabs (meaning the former Arab League,
especially Syria) tolerate the existence of Israel
at all. If Israel went back to the old borders
I predict that it would ultimately be attacked,
not that peace would then reign.
\_ Israel has won how many wars against all of their state sized
neighbors? They could be much bigger if they wanted.
\_ The guy who wrote this must be a Jew.
\_ Wow, trolled lately? |
| 2006/7/14-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43673 Activity:nil |
7/14 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_62 "The level of damage inflicted by Israel appeared finely calibrated. For example, a missile punched a hole in a major suspension bridge on the Beirut-Damascus road but did not destroy it, unlike less expensive bridges on the road that were brought down. An Israeli strike hit fuel depots at one of Beirut's two power stations sending massive fireballs and smoke into the sky but avoided the station itself." \_ Israel's attack is always "pinpointed." But the past record showed pinpointed attack often result in death of, let say, 7 month old terrorist, or entire terrorist's family age from 9-17. Some would argue that "unjustified death" from those Israel attack validates sucide bombing tactics in the middle of crowded buses. You know, those Arab has such twisted sense of what is justifiable what is not... those 7 month old, future terrorist, and those 1 year old future terrorist *DESERVED* to be bombed or shelled; ANY reasonable person from the Western world would agree with that. \_ the goal of a terrorist bomber is to kill as many civilians as possible. this speaks for itself. \_ the goal of terrorist bomber is to make the cost of occupation as high as possible. \_ The goal of a terrorist bomber is not something for a modern democracy to measure its actions by. There is a very big line between civilian casualties incurred from hitting a military or paramilitary target, and indiscriminately killed women or children. The former is tragic and to be avoided whenever possible, but before judging, what would _you_ do? -John \_ remember, more Iraqi civilians died of US bombing during the invasion than those killed by suicide bombers. (iraqibodycount) are you saying that as long as we kill civilians via arial bombing, that will be ok? \_ What would I do? Get the fuck out. I'd move to America or Europe and not look back, if I were either Israeli or Arab. -!pp \_ To them it's home. By this logic, I don't think anyone would stay where they're from (because no matter where you are, it's get-the-fuck-outtable in someone else's view... -John \_ this is great. Those Arabs who live there for 1800 years doesn't belong there. those who migrate to there in 1948 consider that "home" and have the right to defend itself... \_ Israel has no problems with allowing Arabs in the country and holding government posts. Arabs seem to have a problem with Israelis being there. \_ Why won't they let the 1948 refugees back in then? Isreal only allows a very few Arabs in their country and the ones that they do allow are 2nd class citizens, ala apartheid. \_ They left. Why should they be allowed back in? Can the Jews who got kicked out of the Arab countries in the Middle East return home and get their stuff back, too? No. There are Arabs in the Israeli government. They were elected to office just like in any democracy. If you have a specific example of second classness, please share. \_ http://www.csua.org/u/gg7 http://www.csua.org/u/gg6 45% of Isreali Arabs live in poverty, compared to 15% of Isreali Jews. Okay, I step back from my apartheid statement though, that is going too far. But they are second class citizens. Unlike the Palestinians stuck in the occupied territory, who are not even citizens at all. \_ So there is evidence that Israeli Arabs are being oppressed by the government and lack the full rights of Israeli Jews and this explains the higher poverty rates? \_ how about this kind of turkey shoot? these guys are 1. civilian and 2. trying to get out: http://tinyurl.com/lwxtj according to your logic, bus bombing from the air or artillery shell is perfectly ok? I am sorry, I ain't no Hezbollah or Hamas, but I don't find this convincing. \_ No, according to my logic its okay if you're not \_ No, according to my logic its tragic, but maybe very regrettably unavoidable, if you're not blatantly trying to whack civilians (and trying to avoid doing so whenever possible.) Which, as far as I'm aware, is usually the case. And as for who's lived there longer, let's see, I think most Arabs (and most Israelis) were probably born there after 1948? They're both there now, and bitching about whose grandparents were where first won't solve it. -Johnj won't solve it. -John j \_ bombing a civilian bus call it "tragic?" The differences is that I don't believe every thing Israeli says, you do. I sincerely don't think Israeli care too much about civilian casualties, or collateral damage involves MASSIVE number of women and children. Number talk, John. Arabic civilian casualties is at least one order of magnitude than Israeli civilian in the past conflict. You really think the 18,000 casualties in Lebanon back in 1982 were all Hezbollah fighters? How about Israeli-backed Christian groups who slaughter every Sunni and Shiite in sight? The truth is, Israeli doesn't care. They felt they need to defend itself. If it means 20 civilians or 9 family members going to die along with that one terrorist, they will drop the bomb, fire the missile. There is no differences between Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and IDF. While American media covers virtually every sucide bombers attack, there is virtually no photographs, video footage or any kind of media coverage of Arabic civilian fleeing Southern Lebanon and being mow down by IDF machine guns. IDF reminds me a lot of the behavior of Imperial Japanese Army in China backed in the WW2 days. |
| 2006/7/13-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43659 Activity:nil |
7/13 http://csua.org/u/gf9 (globeandmail.com) U.S. casts lone dissenting Security Council vote on resolution which criticized disproportionate use of force by Israel, called for the release of an abducted soldier, and urged both sides to take steps toward restarting the peace process. The vote was 10-1, with UK abstaining and the other three permt Sec Council members voting for. \_ Wow. WWIII imminent. |
| 2006/7/6-7 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43577 Activity:nil |
7/6 Wow, I got this in my http://movietickets.com e-mail today: Islam: What the West Needs to Know (NR); NY/Wash/ATL ... this documentary demonstrates that Islam is a violent, expansionary ideology that seeks the destruction or subjugation of other faiths, cultures, and systems of government. \_ Islam or Death (In Michigan) http://lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060705/OPINION02/607050335& \_ Silly man, doesn't he realize that without cherry-picking the religious texts, there would be no western liberal (and that includes fundies, btw) Christianity? \_ That's a huge oversimplification of the situation. The core issue is not cherry picking. It is that the other major religions have all come to terms with the modern world but Islam has not. The world has all sorts of crazies but you don't see large organised well funded groups of <insert any religion but Islam here> running around suicide bombing civilians in some hopeless effort to turn the world into their idea of 8th century heaven. \_ and selectively ignoring inconvenient bits of one's religious texts is a key component of "[coming] to terms with the modern world" \_ Yes. It has to be. Is there a problem with that? The alternative is the aggressive Islam we see today. I much prefer people giving a wink and nod to people cutting off heads and keeping women as 4th class non- citizens. \_ Yeah. I'm curious how much of radical Islam has to do with the fact that most of it's followers are just really, really poor and uneducated. \_ Most of radical Islam relies entirely on its followers being illiterate and ignorant; if they don't have to rely on Imams for instruction, most people would reject radical Islam. \_ Except the 9/11 suicide bombers, who were on the whole well-educated and well-off. \_ ... i.e., "most." \_ Sounds just like the Catholic Crusaders. |
| 2006/7/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43571 Activity:nil |
7/5 Soooo, Israel invaded the Gaza strip days ago and not a word on
the motd. It feels like the pink elephant in the room. No one
cares? Shall we ignore this like we do the Darfur attrocities that
continue to this day?
\_ What do you want them to do? Negotiate for the hostage?
\_ if anything, first act of war was unleashed by Israel, impose
unjustified economic sanctions upon a DEMOCRATICALLY elected
government.
\_ they demand release of those under 18 of age and women. I
don't know about you, but the demand sounds relatively reasonable
to me.
\_ so releasing a set of people known to carry suicide bombs
back into the general population sounds reasonable to you?
\_ how do you know ALL the people in Israelli custody are
guilty beyond reasonable doubt?
\_ Hamas attacks Israel, and you think Israel is the problem?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1209965,00.html
\_ And you're ok with Israel cutting off the democratically elected
government before they barely had a chance to get into office?
\_ Hamas are terrorists and thugs, Hitler was democratically
elected, and I invoke Godwin's law and declare this
discussion over before it barely had a chance to
get started. -John
\_ and PLA was not a terrorist? how about PKK? we are
actually giving money away to PKK, you know that, right?
\_ The PLA were as well. As are the PKK. And if we're
giving them money, that's not right. Period. -John
\_ but we do give money to PKK.
\_ Wait, are you trumping a Middle East discussion with a
Nazi abortion? Call Jerry Springer! --erikred
\_ I think this is an example of Quirk's Exception. -ausman
\_ Have you ever seen the MSU and IAC yelling at each
other (when I was at Cal, they were both at Sather
Gate.) No, I wouldn't make an exception. -John
\_ See kids? Don't drink and discuss Arab-Israeli politics.
\_ Hamas uses suicide bombers against civilians. Having an official
policy of killing civilians for maximum civilian casualties speaks
for itself.
\_ Indeed. Israel's had fucking tanks in Gaza for a few days now
and there's a huge funeral because they've killed ONE guy who
was about to fire a rocket at them.
\_ I'm not trying to argue, and I have absolutely no respect
for Hamas, but Israel also killed a few people hanging
out on the beach a few weeks ago. I think both sides
have done things to piss off and alienate the other side.
\_ how about bombing president's office? bombing power plant
that knock 700,000 people out of power? The truth is,
Israel want to destroy infrastructure of a proper nation
so Palestinian can never form an effective state. This
whole thing is not about one soldier being kidnapped.
\_ You think they're capable of having an effective state?
Hamas and Fatah were already in a civil war which had
no Israeli involvement.
\_ you don't call illegal economic blocade an
"involvement?"
\_ Israelis did not blow up anyone a beach a few weeks ago.
Please stop repeating Hamas propoganda.
\_ yeah, but you just don't fight back against oppression by
blowing people up in crowded restaurants.
\_ Palestinians don't have a choice. if they fight like
an regular army, they will be crushed. FURTHER,
just remember, Israel was FOUNDED by terrorist bombing.
Remember those Zionist bombing against British? of
course not.
\_ The British were foreign occupiers. Bombing foreign
occupiers is ok. Isn't it?
\_ Israel at the time wasn't a nation. It was called
"British mandated PALESTINE."
\_ Yeah, agreed. The problem, though, is that the
Palestinians think Israel does things like that on
purpose and then claims it was an accident.
\_ dude, I am not an Arab and I don't believe Israel
neither. Israelli has a track record of shelling
UN refugee camp, destory target regardless civilian
casualties, and obey UN charter and international law
only for their benefit.
\_ A track record? Please tell us when they shelled
a refugee camp? Tell us what they should do when
\_ April 18, 1999. Do i have to do all the
google for you
the target hides among a willing population that
shields people lobbing rockets over the border?
\_ border? what border? Is there a border between
"Israel" and "State of Palestine?"
Tell us what would happen to Israel if they
pulled back to their pre-67 borders. Or maybe
you'd prefer the pre-47 borders?
\_ I think they say that, but they don't really believe
it.
\_ Does it matter if they believe it? They use
it as a justification for their actions. Say
anything often enough and you, and a lot of
other people, will believe it.
\_ Who is concerned with Hamas' justifications
for anything?
\_ I don't think any of us are, I say f***
Hamas. But they have propaganda power
over other Palestinians.
\_ I just say we should of give Hamas a
chance before economic sanction was imposed.
A political entity tend to say one thing
to get the power, and the behavior changes
as ruling and responsibility lays upon their
shoulder. Unfortunately, US policy was
to destroy any chance 2-state solution, and
destroy the democratically elected
government.
This make sense in the same way that we
invaded Iraq.
\_ Don't know much about Hamas, huh?
\_ consider all your news are from
US and Israeli sources, I would say
i know more about Hamas than you do.
\_ Except your assumption is
wrong.
\_ I'm not sure anything in Palestine
counts as "democratically elected."
It's more like feudalism with elections.
\_ good try. UN Observer and Jimmy
Carter was there. The election was
fair. You need to understand that
democracy is all about organization
and mobilization of people to vote.
Hamas, Islamtic Brotherhood in Egypt
are much better organized than the
secular counter part. So, if we
decided that democracy is the best way
to go (which i personally does not),
then, you need to bite the bullet and
accept the result.
\_ That's in pretty big dispute. The shrapnel type was
different than that fired, the time was different, and
Palestinians tried to hide the evidence. It is not
clear that Israel was responsible for that explosion.
\_ Seems quite clear they weren't responsible. Sounds
more like a "work accident".
\_ Just curious, if terrorist hide among innocent
civilians and fire rockets, who's responisible for the
civilian casualties resulting from the response? I
would say those who endangered the civilians in the
first place.
\_ Let's avoid the word "terrorist." Terrorism is
a technique to wage warfare, nothing more. These guys
in Gaza / West Bank are resistant fighters. The way
they fight make avoiding civilian casulty difficult.
However, you need to remember, the reason why we hate
them is because they doesn't seems to mind killing
"innocent" civilians. However, if anything, Israeli's
track record is as bad as those of Hamas and PLA in
terms of killing civilians, etc. Just that we tend
to know every bombing in Israel, but we normally don't
see those civilians being killed by Israeli army, by
missile, by proxmity shell, by refuse them go to
hospital on the other side of check point.
\_ Visit a Sbarro's and tell yourself there was one just like it
that was blown up just because. I can't believe there are people
who think that good will win! |
| 2006/6/20-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43438 Activity:nil |
6/19 Why have the Christians turned against our soldiers?
http://www.godhatesfags.com/photos/2006/20060607_arkansas.html
\_ In fairness, looking at Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist and asking
why Christians hate US troops is a bit like looking at the Nazis
and asking why socialists want to exterminate the Jews.
\_ The Nazis were facist, not socialist.
\_ Uh what? You know what socialism is, right? They were
socialists.
\_ Uh no they weren't. Facism and extreme socialism can
look simaler, but there are huge differnces. And just
because Nazi had socialism in the name doesn't make them
socialists. Just like calling yourself El Presidente
doesn't make your dictatorship a democracy.
\_ And Phelps may call himself a Christian, but his
actions would paint him otherwise.
\_ So in what ways were the Nazis not "extreme socialists"?
\_ The Nazis believed in State control of the economy?
Really? Also, why did the Nazis kill all the Communists
and Socialists the first thing upon seizing power???
You historical revisionists always crack me up...
\_ Are you saying the Nazi economy was something other
than state controlled? Could a Jewish company owner
have done good business in Nazi Germany? If you don't
know that communist != socialists....
\_ Ignorant != Revisionist
\_ Fascism is a mixture of corporatism and state
syndicalism in a highly nationalist context. It very
much postulates a very regimented economic environment
whose primary function is to serve state interests. In
this sense it is very similar to socialism, although it
generally allows for private ownership of the means of
production, as long as these shut up and put up. Sort
of like China today. -John
\_ Since state interests in China = PRC leadership
interests these days, it's hard to tell if this is
socialism, fascism, or oligarchy.
\_ Yes. |
| 2006/5/27-6/2 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43206 Activity:nil |
5/26 Mormon Church posthumously baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060526/ap_on_re_us/baptizing_the_dead |
| 2006/5/23-28 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43166 Activity:nil |
5/23 http://70.85.161.7/forum/showthread.php?t=289073 What do jews gain from communism? It's all about power and wealth. \_ Whoever is posting these is a moronic nutjob. -dans \_ Stormfront links go away \_ Link doesn't work but there is no question that early Communists in Eastern Europe and Russia were disproportionately populated by Jews. |
| 2006/5/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43103 Activity:nil |
5/18 Self-explanitory http://hedgehogcentral.blogspot.com/2006/05/gaza-millions-for-kalashnikovs-not.html \_ Interesting read, but for the love of phil, 80-column your ass. |
| 2006/5/18-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43092 Activity:nil |
5/17 Did you guys see the letter from Ahmadinejad?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12984.htm
\_ Translation issues aside, that is a frighteningly clear and
reasonable letter. I say frightening because I still think of
Ahmadi-Najad as a fundamentalist nutjob, but I wasn't aware he
was so articulate.
\_ He is/was a professor. Being a fundamentalist nutjob
doesn't mean you aren't intelligent (although they do tend
to be correlated).
\_ "Reasonable" in the sense that, as above poster put it very
well, nutjobs can still put up logically constructed
arguments. Much of what he writes is true. However, it
reminds me of a joke involving a bunch of people who visit
East Germany in 1975, and after being told for hours what a
great place it is, one of them asks the guide about the stasi,
oppression, and a whole bunch of other horrid things. The guide
snaps back, "Americans oppress their black people." -John
\_ Here in Berkeley that's not a joke, it's an inspiring
tale of a liberated East German "speaking truth to
power."
\_ I'm sure in Berkeley a lot of things would be
considered "inspiring tales" by people who haven't the
slightest clue what the fuck they're talking about. -John |
| 2006/4/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42714 Activity:moderate |
4/6 BTW, this is another (long) artcle generating some waves:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
[SWALT is PhD ucb dept political scence, probably under KWALTZ].
\_ I'm about halfway through but right in the opening paragraphs these
guys are already making opinion based statements as statements of
fact and have yet to back them up. Maybe in the last half of the
paper they'll come through and actually back up their opinions with
something. I doubt it though. If I'd turned in this for any of
my rhetoric classes I'd get a B- if I was lucky and the instructor
liked me. It's a good thing these guys are in PoliSci and not
Rhetoric.
\- Something like "Israel gets 1/5th of us foreign aid budget"
is a fact. Did you ever take a rhetoric class from
judith butler: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n16/butl02_.html
What grade would you give her article? [I think the
first paragraph is good raising the issue of "intention"
being key to anti-sematism, but the rest of the article
"making the point jews" != "israel" is too long.
\_ I hope Jews knows that such action of hijacking American foreign
policy will eventually backlash and rightfully flares anti-semitism
to protect US Interest.
\_ ZOG IS TAKING OVER THE WORLD! ITS THE JEWS! KILL THE JEWS!
THEY OWN THE BANKS, THE MEDIA, THE INTARWEB AND NOW THEY OWN
US FOREGIN POLICY!!1 ZOG IS HERE! ZOG IS EVERYWHERE! THINK
OF THE CHILDREN!
\_ Now I am really worried after I read this. I am worry that USA
is REALLY going to attack Iran...
\- wow, that was fast. i got 3paragraphs in and got depressed
and put it off. you may want to read the 80pp long "academic"
version of the paper. BTW, WALT and MEARSHIMER are top top
people in their field. they arent random people nobody had
ever heard of until they wrote this. i had not previously heard
of the fellows who wrote the FA article below and dont have a
sense of their reputation and track record. |
| 2006/3/28-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42500 Activity:moderate |
3/28 Likud seems to have been kicked upside the head in today's vote. Can
someone who knows Israeli politics better comment?
\_ Frontline on Ch 9 has something on this right now (~ 9:30 PM)
\_ Sharon tolerated Likud because he needed them. Likud negated their
credibility on security concerns by acting like a bunch of paranoid
naysayers, buddying up with religious lunatics (whom a lot of secular
Israelis blame for inciting violence with the Palestinians), and by
the fact that despite/because of Sharon pulling out of Gaza and acting
unilaterally, bombs haven't been going off. -John
\_ Here's a different point of view: Sharon was a core member of Likud,
one of the leaders of this conservative, secular party. Due to the
way the Israeli multi-party parliament works, Likud was forced to
join with the far right religious party to form a government which
meant the FRR-party got a small number of higher level government
positions which they naturally used to further their agenda. As
far as the violence goes, it was reduced dramatically after Israel
closed the borders and built walls/fences. There was a lesser
reduction in attacks when Sharon later unilaterally pulled several
settlements out of the Gaza strip and certain West Bank areas. More
recently, just before his stroke, he declared he was leaving Likud
and forming a new centrist party. His policies had already left
him in a position where he was likely to lose his Likud position
so he had nothing to lose by leaving although less astute political
commentators at the time called this daring and brave. It was
really his earlier actions that left him in an untenable position
in his party that were daring and brave and forming a new party
was the logical next step. It should go without saying that after
Arafat died of some unknown disease in a French hospital and his
wife was left in Paris with the hundreds of millions of EU and US
cash he had looted the level of violence turned way down again but
that has nothing to do directly with Israeli politics.
\_ Nice, but where can I find some hot right-wing Israeli women?
\_ On any Israeli bus, at any Israeli disco, or in any Israeli
pizza parlor, but you'd be putting yourself at serious risk
of being killed by a suicidal palestinian. For your needs,
might I suggest usenet, your imagination, and your hand? At
least that way you'll get some satisfaction.
\_ Hillel on Bancroft
\_ I think there are legal brothels in Tel Aviv.
\_ Are there any hot right-wing Israeli women here in the
Berkeley? Is there an Israel Student Association or
something?
Berkeley? Maybe an Israel Student Association?
\_ Mmmmm, sex slaves from eastern Europe... good plan.
\_ Are there any hot right-wing Israeli women here in
Berkeley? We can play David and Bathsheba all night
long.
\_ Mills. Seriously. |
| 2006/3/23-25 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42391 Activity:nil |
3/22 http://ijc.typepad.com/ijc/2004/09/the_start_of_it.html http://www.flickr.com/groups/ijc Welcome to the world of the IJC. These girls are called IJC's for the simple reason that both on the surface and underneath they are all more or less exactly the same Interchangeable Jappy Chick. Common characteristics of IJC's include but are not limited to: -full breasted -straight dark hair -well tanned -slightly overweight -over-educated and underemployed -teeth a little too white and straight (daddy is a dentist after all) \_ Given the amount of time you invested in posting this trash, did she dump you for someone else or what? \_ "Jappy"? \_ Since she doesn't look like a Nip, I'm going to guess "Jewish American Princess" --Jon \_ this makes no sense whatsoever. \_ It's more of an east coast phenomenon. The slightly overweight thing is inconsistent with my experience, but, eh. Things change. Oh, just read the blog entry. Dude, you go to the Bowery Bar, what do you expect? -dans |
| 2006/3/21-23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:42357 Activity:nil |
3/21 http://www.russforpresident.com \_ is this guy Jewish? Isn't that bad news? \_ so who is the anonymous poster? \_ Would it change anything? It's already common knowledge in Azurbijan that Bush and Cheney are both Jews. \_ "Jagshemash...I support my government's decision to sue this Jew." -Borat |
| 2006/2/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41852 Activity:nil |
2/14 lolly, are you single and Jewish? Are you available? If not
can you please tell me how to meet Jewish women? I heard about
this "Chabad" thing on the radio and I'm wondering if that's a
good place to start. I totally worship Jewish people. |
| 2006/2/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41833 Activity:moderate |
2/13 So, now that Hamas is in power, is it likely they're going to change
their military stance toward Israel?
\_ Um, since the election they've repeatedly said their goal continues
to be to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. Why would you
expect them to change anything?
\_ Wishful thinking?
\_ Because if they don't, they'll be broke and destitute. The
"Arab" community doesn't really like them, they just enjoy
using them as an excuse for poor behavior.
\_ I suppose after a while they might just emulate Araft by
saying nice things on the world stage, but supporting
terrorists at home.
\_ free democratic elections in the middle east!
http://tinyurl.com/cluk4
as long as the people elect who we want
\_ This is the whole thing about being responsible for your vote
and government in a democracy. If you elect fuckwits to office
who your foreign sponsors hate, they'll cut your fuckit people
off the free flow of cash. If your people are willing to forgoe
foreign aid in exchange for having fuckwit terrorists as your
government, then more power to you. I applaud the palestinian
people for finally standing up and telling the world how they
really feel and putting in people who best represent that
feeling, however I'm not required to help fund their newly
elected terrorist organization. The sooner the rest of the
middle east elects the same sort of terrorist psychos, the
sooner the rest of the world will "get it". Frankly, the
honesty of the palestinian people is refreshing.
\_ with all the enormous corruption in the palestinian government
I don't think the people even care; they probably barely
see a cent of it anyway.
\_ Fatah was corrupt. It remains to be seen how much Hamas
pockets, but they have "won the hearts and minds" of the
people with hospitals, etc that Fatah's greedy hands
weren't able to run. They're murderous scum but they're
not entirely stupid. Expect more hospitals, schools, etc
along with more EU and UN money going directly into more
terrorist acts.
\_ Ah, but with that political capital that Hamas has with
the man in the street, they could probably get far more
popular support for a peace agreement than Fatah.
I'm not saying they'll do it, just that if they suddenly
had a change of heart, they are in a better position to
do it than the previous leadership. Like Nixon in China.
\_ Dude, I don't really know what is the big deal with Hamas?
PLO was on Terrorist List, PKK of Iraq is *STILL*
on the Terrorist List and we are dumping millions of dollars to
aid their cause. What makes Hamas so special that just because
they are supposely a "terrorist organization" that we won't deal
with them any more different than PLO and PKK? *FURTHER*, what
is the big deal about democratically elected government? If we
don't like them, we can always topple them. We've done it in
Guatemala, Iran, and Chile, and we can always do that again anytime
we wanted.
\_ Standard big world politics. Our bastards vs. not-our bastards.
\_ didn't say anything about others. But I am just so sick of
hearing us having any principles.
\_ No, they don't have any reason to change their stance. They are
fighting for what they believe is a legitimate cause (i.e. why
should Palestine lose land for the creation of Israel when it
was the Germans that commited the atrocities of WWII). And
honestly, Bush should put himself on the terror list. Who else
but him could unilaterally attack a nation over false pretense?
Who else but him would torture others around the world? Does
any other nation around the world even do that anymore? I've
never seen anyone more morally bankrupt. It disgusts me.
\_ You were doing fine until you got to, "Bush should put...".
Then you fell into whacky nut ranter territory.
\_ Germany already lost a large amount of land which went
to Poland and Russia, while Russia kept half of the prewar
Poland that Stalin took in agreement with Hitler, which the
noble allies conveniently overlooked along with his invasion
of Finland and seizure of land there. They drove out all
the Poles from that area and all the Germans from the other
areas. So that land is what could have become Israel.
But anyway... the Jews would always want the Palestinian
Israel. Also Palestine wasn't and isn't a country so
technically it didn't lose land.
As for your Bush rant, it doesn't help your cause to spout
hyperbolic bullshit. |
| 2006/2/7 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41739 Activity:high |
2/6 Haha, Iranian newspaper planning to print holocaust cartoons:
http://csua.org/u/ex1
\_ Shrug. Government run Arab newspapers print the most racist, ugly,
and horrible 'cartoons' about Jews and Israel everyday. This is
hardly news. It's an Iranian PR stunt. Frankly, I really hope
*all* the Western newspapers and other visual media show their
cartoons. It'll be quite the eye opener for a lot of people instead
of the main stream media white wash we've always had.
\_ That's why it's funny.
\_ This will show two things to the world:
1) what islamic nutcases consider "equivalent" to some pretty tame
depictions of mohammed
2) that when you truly, deeply insult jews... they don't riot,
burn your embassies, and threaten to kill you. (ok, well, they
kill you if you fire rockets or assassinate their olympic
athletes, but that's different)
\_ on the other hand, if you truly, deeply insult black people ...
(Rodney King, LAPD, etc.)
\_ People just love to take things out of context: I heard the full
text of the edict on pictures of the prophet on NPR.
The whole quote states that they should not be drawn for idolatry
purposes only. No where does it forbid other reasons. But as they say,
a basic requirement for being in a democracy is to be able to
purposes only. No where does it forbid other reasons. But as they
say, a basic requirement for being in a democracy is to be able to
withstand being offended. That is one of the pillars of free speech.
\_ If what you just gave is the context, how is it in any way
interesting or important?
say, a basic requirement for being in a democracy is to be able
to withstand being offended. That is one of the pillars of free
speech. |
| 2006/2/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41703 Activity:very high |
2/4 Why does everyone automatically assume Israel has a right to exist?
In my eyes, if the Germans killed the Jews, shouldn't Israel be in
Germany? The Palestinians shouldn't have to sacrifice Palestine
for the creation of Israel. That seems like logical sense to me, no?
\_ Do you own any land in California? Are you planning to hand it over
to Mexico?
\_ I'm not exactly sure where you're going with those questions.
Both Israelis and Arabs could use it to their defense.
My question had to do with state of Palestine before WWII.
Why is it that the Palestinians had to hand over their
land when it was the Germans that committed the atrocities?
To me, it would seem that if Germans commit the crime, they
should be paying the penalty of losing land, not the Arabs.
\_ I meant it as a rhetorical question. I don't frankly think
it matters who owned California or Palestine 50 or 100 or
1000 years ago. The fact is that there are both jews and
arabs on that piece of land, and any sane solution to the
problem has to allow both of them to live there in peace
somehow. Personally, I would advocate a unified secular state
that recognises neither judaism nor islam as an official
religion.
\_ Why does everyone automatically assume Palestine has a right to
exist? This area hasn't had an independent nation for a few
thousand years and there's no such people as "The Palestinians".
This is a fabrication created after Israel was founded. Sheesh,
Arafat was an Egyptian citizen. Why don't we just kick out all
these interlopers who came along after the only independent nation
that ever existed there and give it back to them? That seems like
logical sense to me, no? Oh, btw, HI ANTI ISRAELI TROLL! Top of
the mornin to ya!
\_ hahaha, your calling me names hardly means anything to me.
\_ hahaha, your calling me names is hardly means anything to me.
And I would hardly call myself anti-Israeli or whatever you
would like to believe. I am simply asking a question. And
if you have insight that is exactly what I hoping to see.
\_ No, I don't think your question was intended to spark a
serious or educational discussion. Thus, you = troll. If
you were serious you wouldn't be so obnoxious. Maybe next
time.
\_ Jews have lived in the area for thousands of years. They have lived
in the Palestine area and are just as Palestinian as the so-called
Palestinians. |
| 2006/1/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41537 Activity:nil 90%like:41533 |
1/25 Hamas wins Palestinian election
http://tinyurl.com/9xqqu (news.yahoo.com)
\_ [Hamas and Fatah] "camps threw stones at each other, breaking
windows in the building [parliament], as Fatah supporters briefly
tried to lower the green Hamas banners [flying over parliament].
The crowd of about 3,000 Hamas backers cheered and whistled as
activists on the roof of the parliament raised the Hamas banners
again." So who do we blame for letting Palestine get taken over
by Iranian backed religious fundementalist terrorists and now
Palestine is going to fall into civil war?
\_ Erm...The Palestinians that voted for them?
\_ How do you figure that?
\_ Between Hamas in Palestine and the UIA in Iraq, it looks like
the Persian Empire is poised for a real comeback. |
| 2006/1/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41533 Activity:high 90%like:41537 |
1/25 Hamas wins Palestinian election
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_election
\_ [Hamas and Fatah] "camps threw stones at each other, breaking
windows in the building [parliament], as Fatah supporters briefly
tried to lower the green Hamas banners [flying over parliament].
The crowd of about 3,000 Hamas backers cheered and whistled as
activists on the roof of the parliament raised the Hamas banners
again." So who do we blame for letting Palestine get taken over
by Iranian backed religious fundementalist terrorists and now
Palestine is going to fall into civil war? |
| 2006/1/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41484 Activity:nil |
1/23 http://csua.org/u/eqr Iran's "president" Ahmadinejad in front of an interesting painting. |
| 2006/1/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41463 Activity:nil |
1/20 http://tinyurl.com/72upb Huh? I thought it's legal to give Israel and Jews State Secret... \_ I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Not to be reactionary, but the state of Israel and the Jewish people are not identical. Saying Israel and the Jews comes across as ignorant, and maybe mildly anti-semitic. -dans \_ OP is a troll. He thought it was legal to give state secrets to anyone? Uhm yeah, riiiiiight. The whole thing is just looking for wildly angry responses. He's got 2 baits hooked to his single line; neither looks tasty to me. The Young Troll Advisory Council rates this troll as: WEAK. |
| 2005/12/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:40969 Activity:kinda low |
12/11 Still no press about a reporter denied entry to Syria because he's a
Jew. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47806
\_ Frankly, I don't see why a Jew would want to enter Syria. Is
there some hot story in Syria worth your life?
\_ Isn't WND part of the press?
\_ Not according to much of the motd.
\_ Don't you think El Al has different standards for non-Jews
and deny them boarding now and then? I am not saying this
is a good thing but it reflects the state of the world we
are in in and doesn't seem exactly shocking or comparable to
the Daniel Pearl incident.
\_ I find this comment bizarre. I doubt El Al has different
standards for non-Jews. If you can prove it, I'd like to see
it.
\_ No idea what El Al's policies are, but El Al isn't a nation,
a reporter isn't a random passenger, and a plane isn't a
country. Other than that, El Al and Syria might be roughly
comparable.
\- a significant part of el al is owned by the nation of
israel. and i imagine this was even at a higher level
in the past, and i assume they tightly work with the
israeli govt. --psb
\- from Yahoo finance: --psb
The company was originally government-controlled,
but it is now 40% owned by Knafaim-Arkia
Holdings, which has an option to buy an
additional 12% by 2007. The Israeli government
has retained ownership of about 30%.
According to the israel ministry of foreign affairs,
as of 2000 it was 100% govt owned ... not sure
when it changed. see: http://csua.org/u/e9r
\_ It seems that El Al was privatized at the end of
2004. http://www.mof.gov.il/beinle/press164.pdf
\_ This doesn't prove anything but here is an anecdote
which seems believable.
http://www.latinastyle.com/currentissue/v10-6/f-facing.html
and some more discussion here (look for El Al)
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/20/le.00.html
\_ It seems that El Al was privatized at the end of
2004. http://www.mof.gov.il/beinle/press164.pdf
\- G-UNIT denied entry to CANADA because he is a G-UNIT --psb
http://www.sohh.com/articles/article.php/7986
\_ Dude, Isreal refuses Palestinians entry into Isreal from
Gaza and West Bank all the time. I am sure they deny entry
to Syrians, too, since the two nations are still officially
at a state of war. How could this possibly be news?
\_ Because the OP is one of the "Jews are the center of the
universe" flavor of Jews. Does anybody other than some
Jewish people complain about the term "B.C." and insist on
B.C.E. ? In my experience Asians dont have a problem with B.C.
I'm sure the OP will go nuts about my anti-semitism but let me
say I am Jewish ... I am just talking about a certain flavor of
Jewish person.
\_ What? In my experience there are no Jews or non-Jews who have
a problem with "BC". And what does this have to do with Gaza
or the price of tea in China or what the moon is made of
anyway? Excuse me while I go look up non-sequiter. I hope
I spelled that right. And oh, btw, the humidity was hovering
about 28% today which is 2.4% below historic norms for this
area. |
| 2005/11/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:40745 Activity:nil |
11/26 The New Pentagon Papers
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/3853
\_ uh, this is from march 2004 |
| 2005/10/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Reference/Religion] UID:40196 Activity:nil |
10/20 Are Jews Smarter? Proof and disproof:
http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/1478 |
| 2005/9/14-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39687 Activity:kinda low |
9/14 Israeli's pull out of Gaza, now we will see the Palestinians killing
each other instead of Israelis:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050914/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians
\_ haha. what losers.
\_ So some people who have trapped in Gaza are leaving and the
rest are arming themselves. How does that make them losers?
\_ As if that was the least of it. Looters are destroying
everything, including the greenhouses: http://csua.org/u/de0
\_ lol, what a bunch of dumasses.
\_ And desecrating synagogues. Way to go, religion of peace!
\_ Red Herring. The PA asked the Isreali govt to remove
them, they agreed then at the last minute refused.
The Palestinians need the land for other uses, so they
have to tear them down.
\_ I doubt religion has much to do with it ... They've been
occupied for decades.
occupied for decades. I'd be burning down the buildings
of the occupiers too, especially the ones that are useless. |
| 2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39568 Activity:low |
9/8 "100 gunmen stormed Moussa Arafat's four-story family compound in Gaza
City after exchanging gunfire with his security guards for 30 minutes
and dragged him in his pajamas to the street, where they shot him."
link:tinyurl.com/ag9ob (NYTimes)
\_ Ha ha, doesn't he wish he'd listened to his mom when she told him
to always wear clean pajamas just in case you're dragged to the
street and shot by a horde of nutso gunmen! -John
\_ John were you scared when you thought ilyas was coming to get you?
\_ john sleeps in the buff.. so doesn't matter
\_ No, yermom was there to protect me. -John
\_ More to the point, if you have a horde of 100 gunmen dragging
citizens out of their homes and executing them, you do not have
a viable state.
\_ You do realize that lynching was common in the US into the
late 1950's. Sure it took fewer gunmen, but whole towns
(well, the white part) showed up to watch through the 1930's.
\_ You do realize that Gaza City is not the Mississippi
backwoods?
\_ They're probably more similar than you realize.
\_ Given population size, this is much more similar to
New York's Five Points in the 1850s. |
| 2005/8/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39349 Activity:nil |
8/28 Why were the Israel/Palestine map link and the Bell Curve link
deleted? There was good stuff at both links. Neither link went
to anything trollish.
\_ restored but at the end. TROLL.
\_ I didn't post either link. In what way are either of them
trolls? The Israel/Palestine map link was about how diplomats
who are so careful with words are so poor with maps which
requires a different set of skills. The Bell Curve link is
a summary refutation of the Bell Curve by someone who actually
read it. Unless you think "Israel/Palestine" or "Bell Cuve"
automagically means "troll", there was nothing trollish in
either link. You *did* read the links, right? |
| 2005/8/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39344 Activity:nil |
8/30 http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/September-October-2005/feature_motro_sepoct05.msp http://redirx.com/?3hc5 "Some people claim that the Oslo process was deliberately designed to segregate Palestinians into isolated enclaves so that Israel could continue to occupy the West Bank without the burden of policing its people. If so, perhaps the map inadvertently revealed what the Israeli wordsmiths worked so diligently to hide. Or perhaps Israel's negotiators purposefully emphasized the discontinuity of Palestinian areas to appease opposition from the Israeli right, knowing full well that Arafat would fly into a rage. Neither is true. I know, because I had a hand in producing the official Oslo II map, and I had no idea what I was doing." - danh \_ Why are you an anti-semite, danh? RACIST. |
| 2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:39269 Activity:low |
8/25 Cindy Sheehan equates US to Syria
http://media.putfile.com/Sheehan_SFSU_Speech -jblack
\_ Oh my god, Fox News! Fair and Balanced!
\_ "It's okay for Israel to occupy Palestine ... and it's okay for ...
the United States to occupy Iraq, but it's not okay for Syria to be
in Lebanon? They're a bunch of fucking hypocrites." April 27, 2005
My answer: Israel is in Palestine (right now at least) because
suicide bombings were popularized in the Israel-Palestine
conflict. The U.S. occupies Iraq because we thought they had WMDs
(they didn't have them when we invaded, and their WMD programs were
dormant, but despite the fuckup, we're not leaving until things look
stable). Syria is occupying Lebanon, but not because they're
being attacked by suicide bombers or a belief Lebanese have WMDs.
\_ So, basically, you like our excuses better?
\_ hey, I said it was a fuckup didn't I?
\_ And israel? (that "our" was supposed to be collective)
\_ what about Guantanamo Bay
\_ What about it?
\_ So occupied area fighting back = justification to continue
occupying.
\_ Nah, it's just cleaning up your own mess. You lose points
if you're making a bigger mess in the cleanup.
\_ My answer (and hers, although she's got an unfortunate way of
putting it): No, it's not okay. And since we're happy to have
Syria kicked out of Lebanon, we should be happy about the Gaza
pullout, and we should be making plans to leave Allawi to get
his own act together.
\_ Allawi? You're behind the times, dude. |
| 2005/8/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39179 Activity:low |
8/19 Hmmm, right-wing columnist writes in favor of the Gaza withdrawl.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/ck20050819.shtml
\_ Krauthammer is sounding more and more like something out of a
Kubrick film.
\_ Mr. President, we must not lose the mine-shaft race!
\_ You are destroying the humor content by butchering the quote!
"Mr. President, we cannot allow a mineshaft gap!"
-- General Buck Turgidson
\_ Just out of curiosity, why? His historical and political
are completely sound. -John
\_ Were you planning on modifying something with those adjectives?
\_ Were you planning on modifying something with those
adjectives?
\_ Yah, seriously. The suspense is killing me -- John always
does that: teases you with interesting adjectives, then
leaves it up the reader's imagination to fill in the
blanks. I'm going to be thinking about it all damned day
now! That bastard! -mice
\_ "analyses"? "comments"? "arguments"?
\_ "tunafish"? "storms"? "triffids"?
\_ "storms"? "tunafish"? "triffids"?
\_ "xxxxxxxx"? "storms"? "triffids"?
\_ Deleted for national security purposes. -John |
| 2005/8/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:39007 Activity:nil |
8/4 Looks like the guy wishing for Isreali suicide bombers is
going to get his wish afterall!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050804/ts_nm/mideast_dc
\_ Duh, just go to freerepublic if you want to read
"he should have strapped on a bomb instead" type posts
C'mon, even http://jpost.com is calling him a Jewish terrorist |
| 2005/8/3-5 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38979 Activity:nil |
8/3 Another nutty Palestinian:
http://csua.org/u/cx5 (sfgate) |
| 2005/8/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38951 Activity:nil |
8/2 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050802/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians Palestinians fire on pissed off Israeli mob. Maybe it's time the Israelis start suicide bombing the Palestinians. \_ "Militant attacks against Israelis had dropped off after a February truce between Israel and the Palestinians. In recent weeks, however, as the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza approaches, militants have stepped up attacks to try to portray the Israeli pullout as a military victory for the Palestinians." Dur! \_ Why use suicide bombers, when you can just fire rockets from a helicopter? The whole story is actually rather amusing, in a morbid kind of way. \_ The whole story has a great morbid humour to it. Those two sides deserve each other. |
| 2005/8/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38909 Activity:nil |
8/01 And the JEWS are POISONING your BANANAS!
http://csua.org/u/cvq
But I guess it's a step up from learning to kill Jews at summer
camp:
http://csua.org/u/cvr |
| 2005/7/29-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38879 Activity:high |
7/29 It's the Jews! It's always the Jews!
http://www.nysun.com/article/17686
\_ Where is the motd jew-lover NOW?
\_ Jewish people should rule the world.
/\
//\\ / ====
____//__\\____ / / \
\.-//----\\-,/ / / ___/\__
\v/ \v/ | | \ /
/\\ //\ | | \ /- \
//_\\____//_\\ \ \ // \_\
'----\\--//----` \ \ /
\\// \ ====
\/ GOOD EVIL
\_ An argument truly worthy of the motd.
\_ These guys are no more brainwashed or misinformed than your
average Fox News viewer. But yes, it is terrible that so many
are deliberately lied to by the media. This is one of the
reasons it is so important to come to an equitable resolution
to the Palestinian-Isreali conflict, so that the Arab governments
can't use it as a stick to whip up their peoples fury and
redirect it to Isreal and the United States. Though they
probably will try anyway...
are deliberately misinformed by the media.
\_ Ignoring the blatant troll bait at the beginning, you're out
of your mind if you think the Arab governments would settle
for any "equitable resolution." You completely fail to
understand the situation if you think they are going for
anything less than kill all the jews. Anything other than
genocide would be considered unfair by these guys.
\_ Sorry, you are simply wrong. Why did Egypt sign a peace
treaty with Isreal if that was the case? Seems like you
are as brainwashed as your average Fox News viewer. There
treaty with Isreal if that was the case? Seems like there
are perhaps one or two countries, like Iran, who still
feel that way, but they are in the minority.
\_ Seriously, do you read *any* history? How about the
*B*illions of dollars Egypt gets from the US every year
as long as they maintain the treaty? That money allows
Egypt to maintain a large and effective military for
the region, keeps the dictators swiss bank accounts full
and their home/family villages safe. Too bad the treaty
didn't include the Egyptian government newspapers, TV and
schools from teaching their people that all their problems
are Israel's fault when they're clearly not.
\_ When did Iran become Arabic?
\_ Point taken.
\_ Nuclear weapons, converting even the most persistent
wars into hasty peace treaties since 1945.
\_ It is not really a troll. Just because someone points out
an inconvenient fact, that does not make what they say
a troll. The point is that governments all over the world,
here included, have means of keeping the uneducated hoards
in check. The tools are a bit blunter in totalitarian
regimes, but if anything, they are even more effective
in the democracies.
\_ I think your attempt to equate personal freedom,
prosperity, and free press with blaming everything on
the Jews and shooting any who disagree brilliantly
demonstrates the bankruptcy of your argument. Thanks.
\_ I think your unwillingness to admit to the
propaganda in your midst demonstrates your
narrow simplistic "us vs. them" worldview and
is strong evidence of your own brainwashing.
Your fear that someone somewhere might be wanting
to "blame the jews" and "kill all the jews" shows
a definite paranoiac streak as well. Each side
uses simplistic sloaganeering, and phrases like
"freedom", "motherhood" and "patriotism" to try
and whip up hatred toward the "other side" and
make them more easily controlled. It is too bad
you can't see through it.
\_ Uhm, hello? Read *anything* from the Palestinian
side in the last, oh say, 40 years? They don't
pretend that the only fully satisfactory solution
is "kill all the jews". It isn't paranoia when
someone is out to get you.
\_ Yes, the only solution is to kill all of the
savage Arabs. Only then will the Israeli have
his lebensraum.
\_ Hi Mr. Strawman! How's it going back in
Rhetoric 10 class?
\_ http://csua.org/u/cvi (Isreal government)
"The PLO [...]
"2. Established the independent state of
Palestine and accepted the existence of Israel
as a state in the region;
"3. Declared its rejection and condemnation of
terrorism in all its forms, including state
terrorism;
Note the date, 1998.
\_ That's nice and all but that doesn't jive
\_ jibe
with the reality since 1998 and the PLO
sure as hell doesn't control or represent
all the other groups such as Hamas who have
never said anything but "kill all the jews".
They could've written a statement that said
the moon is made of cheese but that wouldn't
make the moon into cheese.
\_ I don't think critical thinking and independent thought
will ever be a "bankrupt ideology" but you are welcome
to believe that. And yes, the relative lack of a free
press in Egypt is dastardly. And yes, if forced to chose
sides, I would line up with what you un-ironically call
the side of "personal freedom, prosperity and [the]
free press." But you know what? I don't have to chose
sides. I can stand at the sidelines and mock both of
you for acting like Jr. High school children instead
of real adults. Grow up and learn to settle your
differences without resorting to demonizing the
other side and with minimal violence.
\_ The real irony here is that you claim mocking both
sides is somehow more mature that pointing out what
some bad people are doing and saying "That's bad."
This coupled, once again, with the "Kill all the
Arabs" strawman. I think all can see who is acting
like a Jr. High school student here.
\_ I am not the author of the "kill all the Arabs"
strawman. But to be honest, it is not much more
of a strawman, than the "kill all Jews" one. Do
I really need to dig out the quote where a US
Congressman advocates nuking Mecca? The point is
that you are both idiots and I am pointing out
both of your idiocy. And yes, mocking people is
pretty much always more mature than killing them.
\_ Well, I have no real way to respond to this
series of strawmen and red herrings. How
could I make you look sillier than you already
do? I guess I'll throw out that to my reading
the congressman did not advocate nuking Mecca,
series of strawmen and red herrings. Try
actually reading what people write, rather
than what you wish they had written. I guess
I'll throw out that to my reading the
congressman did not advocate nuking Mecca,
he hypothesised that the threat of nuking
Mecca might be a way of detering Islamic
terrorists for a nuclear attack on the US. I
don't know that it is, myself. I guess you
could dig it out and re-read it yourself, but
it's pretty obvious that reading comprehesion
is not your strong suit. |
| 2005/7/26-27 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38829 Activity:nil |
7/26 So what do ppl think re: NASA?
1) Stick with shuttle program?
2) Scrap the shuttle, move to the next type of launch vehicle
3) We should build a moon base
4) Manned-Mars Ho!
5) IIS - make it an orbital station for whatever launch vehicle
we choose for (2).
\_ Can't do #3 or #4 without #2. #1 is stupid. Therefore, #2.
\_ Agreed. -mice
\_ We have to go ask our asian lenders for more lunch money
because we already spent our allowance for the next 5
centuries on the Iraq invasion.
\_ Nah -- we just allocate some of that money for starting
a war with our debtors, then after bombing them back
into the Third Age, we rebuild their country with
Americanized values and declare them either the 51st
state, or a 'Protectorate' with symbolic representation
in the senate.
\_ Scrap NASA and start over, imo. This gold-plating and closed
competition between Lockheed and Boeing has to stop. -- ilyas
\- A nice line I heard was "pentagon procurement is one of the
last bastions of stalinism". where in russia are you from?
\_ Odessa. Interestingly, Odessa is considered the 'city of
humor' in Russia. It was a largely jewish city, and there
is a 'certain culture' to it. It's a lot like a russian
version of San Francisco, I would say. -- ilyas
\_ here's some pics: http://www.sergeyv.com --!ilyas
\_ So let me get this right. You're not a Jew, but you're
almost a Jew because of exposure with Jews? If that's
the case, I will start respecting you a bit.
-not a jew but totally worship them
\_ I am not russian either. I have no nation. You would
be interested to know that during the formation of the
state of Israel, they considered anybody who considered
themselves a Jew to be a Jew (for the purposes of
immigration). -- ilyas
\_ In other words, you too can be a Jew, Jew
worshipper guy! |
| 2005/7/18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38690 Activity:kinda low |
7/18 I used to have a lot of rachmones, bubbala for ilyas because I
thought he was a maven Russian Jew. Then I found out that he was
just a Russian, WTF? Oy yoy yoy, hok a chainik. How kvetch. I feel
fermisht, fershlugina. Meeskait ilyas fershtinkiner faygala gonif
momzer, gai avek nebbish nudnik.
\_ I think it's the Heil German John guy.
\_ http://www.sbjf.org/sbjco/schmaltz/yiddish_phrases.htm
\_ Ya i nye russkiy tozhe, mudak ty nye rezaniy. -- ilyas
\_ what location in Russia re you from? |
| 2005/7/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38688 Activity:nil 50%like:38680 |
7/18 DEAR JEWISH D00DZ ON MOTD! I TODALLY ADM1RE UR CULTURE, IM
NOT A JEW SO A LOT UV THINGZ ARE SKREWED UP 1N MY FAMILY.
MY FAMILY 1Z P00R, LA1K, MY PARENTZ ARE SPLIT, LA1K, MY DAD IZ
ANALCOHOL1C + I DONT GET ALONG WITH MY DRUG ADD1CT BROTHUR. HOWEVUR I
ALSO CONSIDUR MYSELF 2 B PRETTY LUCKY BECAUSE 1M THE FIRST IN MY FAM1LY
2 GO 2 COLEGE + I GOT LOANZ THAT COVUR A MAJORITY UV MY
EXPENSES, LA1K, THE REST 1 COVUR BY WORKING PART TIME HEAR + THEY'RE.
1VE ALWAYZ SAID 2 MYSELF THAT IF 1 EVUR START A FAMILY UV MY OWN
ID MAKE 1T A LOT BETTUR. ID MODEL MY FAMILY AFTUR K00L JEW1SH
FAMILIES, 1 WANNA B AZ JEW AZ POSSIBLE, WHAT CAN I DO TO
GET MORE EXPOSHUR 2 JEW1SH FAMILIES?!?1?!? CAN 1 GET ADOPTED, LA1K, OR
B A NU CONVURT?!?1?!? I ADMIRE U, LA1K, + 1 WANT IN! I AM NOT
TROL1NG, LA1K, IM BEING SUR1OUS, -JEWORSHIPPUR
\_ Hey, what about us Chinese?
\_ Marry Connie Chung. You get the best of both worlds.
\_ You are trolling. |
| 2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38680 Activity:low 50%like:38688 |
7/18 Dear Jewish people on motd. I totally admire your culture. I'm
not a Jew so a lot of things are screwed up in my family.
My family is poor, my parents are split, my dad is an alcoholic
and I don't get along with my drug addict brother. However I also
consider myself to be pretty lucky because I'm the first in my family
to go to college and I have loans that cover a majority of my
expenses, the rest I cover by working part time here and there.
I've always said to myself that if I ever start a family of my own
I'd make it a lot better. I'd model my family after good Jewish
families. I want to be as Jew as possible. What can I do to
get more exposure to Jewish families? Can I get adopted, or
be a new convert? I admire you, and I want in. I am not
trolling, I'm being serious. -Jeworshipper
\_ BTW, is Jewish family culture better than Chinese family culture?
\_ Check out Hillel. Don't expect them to be too welcoming at
first, but if you are serious you can convert. Expect to
have to learn Hebrew.
\- Just change your name to Cohen or Levi and tell people
you are a Jew.
you are Jewish.
\_ "Hello, my name is John Doestein." |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38590 Activity:low |
7/13 Those of you who are interested in the Gaza Strip/Israeli conflict,
here is an excellent site that shows you detailed information:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/gazastrip.html
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_1999.jpg
FYI I got interested after the CNN article that says Israel is
closing Gaza Strip to 8000 resident, also home to 1.3 million
Palestinians. Before this I had no idea where and how big Gaza
Strip was and what the 6 Day War entailed. I can't believe how
much conflict can exist in a country that is [officially] barely 10
miles wide, and 40 miles wide if you count West Bank.
\_ Try reading the Old Testament Bible sometime.
\_ The northern and the southern parts are much wider than 10 miles.
\_ The northern and the southern parts are wider than 10 miles.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
\_ Remember what the French ambassador to England said: "this
international crisis causes by that shitty little country
Israel" -- it is amazing how a country so small with so few
people can cause so many problems. I guess we have all the
major world religions to thank for that, parking so many
holy sites on top of one another there ...
\_ "caused by that shitty little country, indeed." Ivory Coast,
Rwanda/Burundi, WWII (yes), Vietnam, and I guess he's not heard
of the Sykes-Picot agreement or the Suez crisis. The phrase
"you French twit" comes to mind. -John |
| 2005/7/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38463 Activity:nil |
7/7 AP reported that Netanyahu was warned about the bombings. The Israeli
government denies it. Who's running the AP?
http://csua.org/u/cml
http://csua.org/u/cmm
\_ Whatever this persons's posting method is completely evades kchang's
scripts. |
| 2005/6/30-7/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38374 Activity:kinda low |
6/30 Apparently, Spielberg's "War of the Worlds" sucks.
\_ I haven't seen a single Spielberg movie I didn't like. In fact
I haven't seen a single Jew-made production I didn't like.
You want proof that the Jews are better? Just turn on TV.
All the intelligent, funny, and likeable commentators, comedians,
writers, and producers are Jews. I wish I were a Jew.
-Not a Jew but TOTALLY worship them
\_ why not move to israel?
\_ suicide bombers
\_ Which are statistically less dangerous than driving in the
U.S.
\_ The motd racist idiot is back, yay!
\_ you should explain why it sucks
\_ I haven't seen it. I've just heard/read a buch of reviews,
and every single one panned it. I'm just a little
disappointed. Here's ebert:
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050628/REVIEWS/50606007
\_ you got to give ebert nerd points for picking it apart for
lack of plausibility, and lines like "Three legs are
inherently not stable"
\_ Uh. Tripods are most stable on any varying surface. They're
not redundant, but they are definitely stable.
Now, if they're walking, three is inconvenient, but not
necessarily improbable.
\_ Yeah, I think the core of his argument is that it's less
realistic than Independence Day, and he's fucking pissed!
\_ Three legs walking are more than inconvenient. They just
don't work. John Christopher addressed this in his
Tripods books. He explained that they rotated as they
walked.
\_ Huh? Most of the reviews I saw were favorable. (NY Times, Chron)
-dans
\_ Huh, you're right, LATIMES liked it..
\_ Yes, and the Washington Post loved it
\_ 72% sucks?
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/war_of_the_worlds
\_ I think I would dislike this movie so I will skip it. It seems
pretty stupid. And I don't really care for Cruise. And Spielberg's
stuff, well usually it's good but usually also annoys me in other
ways like having smarmy overly-sentimental scenes.
\_ I haven't seen a single Spielberg movie I didn't like. In fact
I haven't seen a single Jew-made production I didn't like.
You want proof that the Jews are better? Just turn on TV.
All the intelligent, funny, and likeable commentators, comedians,
writers, and producers are Jews. I wish I were a Jew.
-Not a Jew but TOTALLY worship them
\_ why not move to israel?
\_ suicide bombers
\_ Which are statistically less dangerous than driving in the
U.S.
\_ The motd racist idiot is back, yay!
\_ you should explain why it sucks
\_ I haven't seen it. I've just heard/read a buch of reviews,
and every single one panned it. I'm just a little
disappointed. Here's ebert:
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050628/REVIEWS/50606007
\_ you got to give ebert nerd points for picking it apart for
lack of plausibility, and lines like "Three legs are
inherently not stable"
\_ Uh. Tripods are most stable on any varying surface. They're
not redundant, but they are definitely stable.
Now, if they're walking, three is inconvenient, but not
necessarily improbable.
\_ Yeah, I think the core of his argument is that it's less
realistic than Independence Day, and he's fucking pissed!
\_ Three legs walking are more than inconvenient. They just
don't work. John Christopher addressed this in his
Tripods books. He explained that they rotated as they
walked.
\_ Huh? Most of the reviews I saw were favorable. (NY Times, Chron)
-dans
\_ Huh, you're right, LATIMES liked it..
\_ Yes, and the Washington Post loved it
\_ 72% sucks?
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/war_of_the_worlds
\_ I think I would dislike this movie so I will skip it. It seems
pretty stupid. And I don't really care for Cruise. And Spielberg's
stuff, well usually it's good but usually also annoys me in other
ways like having smarmy overly-sentimental scenes. |
| 2005/6/28-29 [Academia/GradSchool, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38347 Activity:nil |
6/28 Well, I have to admit. This is the first I've heard of the trial
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11044
\_ Wow, U. of South Florida College of Engineering Outstanding
Teaching Award in '93? Why don't we have wiretaps on Brian
"potsticker" Harvey? |
| 2005/6/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38231 Activity:nil |
6/21 Show me the love, Palestine:
http://csua.org/u/cgd (jpost)
\_ "Another Gaza resident responded: "May God protect us against such
weird and dangerous ideas. The next thing we will hear is that we
need a party for gays and lesbians."
In America we call people who think this way "Republicans." Maybe
Bill Frist should run for president of Palestine. |
| 2005/6/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38104 Activity:nil |
6/13 When is treason not treason? When you are selling out your
country to AIPAC, I guess:
http://csua.org/u/ccb
\_ Moonie Times Op-Ed link above. |
| 2005/6/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38064 Activity:nil |
6/9 The next generation of RealDoll(tm)
http://csua.org/u/cb7 (Yahoo! News Photos, work-safe)
\_ I like girls of that ... caliber
\_ Do they call it the Replicant I?
\_ Do they call it the Nexus I? |
| 2005/6/9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38061 Activity:nil |
6/9 Robots on Yahoo! News Photos:
http://csua.org/u/cb7
Looks much more realistic than RealDoll(tm). |
| 2005/6/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37972 Activity:high |
6/4 Regarding yesterday's racist remark on how wealthy and smart Jewish
people are, I will reiterate again that it is just my opinion, as a
non-Jew, that they are one of the wisest and sensible people in the
world. In fact, I think United States would be much better if the
government is run by Jews. That is because Jews are more likely to
use diplomacy rather than Shock & Awe, Bolton bullying, and
intimidation. They're also more likely to have earned their college
degrees without their daddy's influence. Most of them think clearly
and thus don't have speech impediments. Most of them are modest,
unlike people who say they've made no mistakes. They're also sensible
and are less likely to divise people into two camps-- one for you,
one against you. Lastly, Jews are less likely to impose their
Religious beliefs such as pro-life/pro-choice on you. Since they
know what it is like to be suppressed by the other race, they have
a lot of understanding and compassion for people who are different,
be it people with alternative and diverse lifestyles, or just
minorities in general. I hope one day, they take over our Red Neck
White Trash Christian Nation and make United States better for
Americans and less of a threat to everyone else. Shalom, and
Bless Jews. -Troller. Not a Jew, But Worship Them
\_ I'm stunned that no one else has yet said this is the most racist
drivel the motd has seen in quite a while. Please tell us that
when you signed as "Troller." you were telling us flat out that
this racist diatribe really is a troll and we weren't all supposed
to respond seriously like everyone below has done.
\_ I don't know if I would call the below responses "serious."
A few were tounge-in-cheek, and most were on a different,
although related, subject.
\_ Average IQ in Israel is actually pretty low:
http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm (IQ and the Wealth of Nations)
\_ its probably just being dragged down by them dirty palestinians
\_ Man, you should post this on the MSA website.
\-1. as with the sikhs, i think people assume there are more of
then then there are. small populations have have higher
variances from the mean than large ones.
2. there are some big selection factors, as well, looking at
an immigrant group. for example if you judge indians you
meet here a lot of them seem reasonably intelligent ... you
dont meet a lot of indians who couldnt tell you what 15% of
100 is. but it turns out if you go to india, you discover
there are a lot of dumb indians. similarly whatever you say
about jews here, the population metrics are likely to be pretty
different when you are talking about israelis. having met a
large number of israelis while traveling, they are the biggest
assholes [followed probably by indians ... this is actually
sort of interesting and there are some statistical explanations
but i'll leave it at that].
\_ If an American Jew is a fanatical asshole about religion,
they typically will want to go to Israel as much as
possible and will often move there and become citizens.
The town I'm from (in the U.S.) had a lot of these people.
When a Christian decides to be a fundamentallist asshole,
they do it right here, but among jews there's a filter that
tends to send the extremists to Israel and keep the more
decent folk here.
\_ I find Chinese to be greater assholes while traveling
abroad than Indians, but only marginally so. What is it
about the eastern mind that makes people inconsiderate
jerks?
\_ Nothing--just that some cultures bring out the fact that
people are assholes more than others through learned
traits (so, assuming you get the same % of assholes per
culture, your Englishman will seem treacherous and
passive-aggressive, French=arrogant, German=loud &
boorish, American=loud & obnoxious, Russian=pushy,
Chinese=rude & self-centered, etc.) -John
\_ Just a thought, but perhaps all these people who have
immigrated to the US have adapted to our social norms,
whereas when you are traveling abroad, you have probably
not adapted to their social norms.
\_ I'm often told that people in X country
are racist and don't like foreigners by
Chinese and Indians, but the problem
that I have with this is that I often
notice the same Chinese and Indians
tourists acting like complete jerks when
they are abroad.
I don't know who many times I've had to
stand in line behind some Chinese or
Indian having it out with the hotel staff
or a ticket agent over something trivial.
(It is worse when I have to stand behind
and Indian b/c I'm invariably viewed w/
distrust and am stuck apologizing for
the rude behavior).
I almost never see non-asian tourists do
things like take photos where they are
not permitted, walk accross lawns &c.
that are being repaired, spitting in
inappropriate places, yelling, &c.
Perhaps I am not in tune w/ their culture
but any culture that breeds disrespect
for your fellow man (esp. when you are a
guest in their country) is on that I don't
want to be in tune w/.
\- once again, a partial answer:
\- once again, i think i have a partial answer:
a lot of the indians going to a place like the
middle east are "lower class" persons, like
people with domestic or labor jobs. lower
class americans ... the type that chew and
spit tobacco dont leave the country. you go
to a mcdonalds in oakland and you see some
pretty amazing behavior.
note also that in some countries retail
establishments are mostly small proprietorships
and this means 1. you can bargain about prices
[and there are rude and non-rude ways of doing
this] 2. there are usually not hassle-free
returns, so sometimes you have to be a little
nasty ... and when it comes to small things,
it a matter of not being the bitch than the
money.
\- in the case of some indians, these are the servant-
owning class, so often they will treat people like
their mountaineering guides as their servants,
like "hey bring me my cigarettes". they are also
cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. it's one thing
to say "oh may be they dont think it is rude to
chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to say "in their
culture it is perfectly reasonable to yell across
the hotel atrium to your friends at 2am". a lot of
the chinese people i meet travelling in the backwaters
of asia are travelling solo and people [including
israelis] are less jerk-like solo. part of the
biasing factor in the israeli case is they are often
younger people who are looking to party on the cheap.
you cant relly compare a post-college american who
goes to france to see some culture and a dutch
teen ager who heads down to paris to carouse.
cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. [these are why
usually i am one of the two chiefs of labor nego-
tiations with the climbing staff: i look after them
more and i am a better tipper]. re: social norms:
it's one thing to say "oh maybe they dont think it
is rude to chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to
say "in their culture it is perfectly reasonable to
yell across the hotel atrium to your friends at
2am". a lot of the chinese people i meet travelling
in the backwaters of asia are travelling solo and
people [including israelis] are less jerk-like
solo. part of the biasing factor in the israeli case
is they are often younger people who are looking to
party on the cheap. you cant relly compare a
post-college american who goes to france to see some
culture and a dutch teen ager who heads down to paris
to carouse.
\_ I live in an apartment building full of white
frat boys who consider it acceptable to yell
across the courtyard to their friends at 2am.
My German upstairs neighbors have ear-shattering
parties at 4am sometimes. Are those cultural too?
-- ilyas
\- i'm talking about quite specific contexts.
like austriains in bali are likely to be
loud partiers. australians you meet crossing
the thorung la pass arent likely to be loud
and obnoxious ... nit that week anyway.
and there are some valid generalization and
they have explanations beyond "people from X
are just that way" ... like the servant class
example.
\_ It is not cultural that Cantonese speakers talk
louder than Mandarin speakers. It is a fact well
accepted by most Chinese. As for parties at 4AM,
that's a tough one. Maybe your German friends
learned it from Caucasian frat boys, who knows.
Speaking of Caucasian frat boys, I also hear
them yelling and breaking beer glass bottles
till 3AM 1/2 mile from Gayley. Fucking annoying
jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural.
jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural. Also,
definitely more of a UCLA thing than a Cal thing
\- Harbhajan Singh, On what he was discussing
with Younis Khan: Oh, it wasn't a heated
conversation. But you know, we were
speaking in Punjabi, and Punjabi is such a
language that even when you have a normal
conversatiion in it, it sounds heated.
\_ I've seen many drunk, stupid frat boys
pissing behind dumpsters and on street
corners in my years of living near college
campuses. I would like to point out however
that the *only* time I've seen a drunk
stupid frat boy atually pissing *on* the
porch of his own frat house was at the Yale
DKE house. Future presidents indeed.
\_ Re Germans, I used to work w/ a German guy and
he was always surprised when the neighbors
complained about his loud late night parties.
Apparently in Berlin the action doesn't start
until after midnight at the earliest.
\_ Zese are ze irresponsible chermans. Se real
Chermans are up at 6 in ze mornink, varmink
up ze panzers for ze little hangover trip to
POLAND, ha ha! -John
Re Frat Boys, They are just obnoxious youth,
which are found EVERYWHERE. In Dublin almost
all of the late night party/noise was from
kids getting drunk at pubs.
\_ I don't know any world leader who have all the combined attributes
of not prefering diplomacy, have a speech impediment, is not modest,
AND imposes his/her belief on you. To whom are you refering to??? |
| 2005/6/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37958 Activity:kinda low |
6/3 Connie Chung is a Jew?
http://www.nndb.com/people/756/000024684
\_ "Is Jewish" is the phrase you probably want to use.
\_ why? just curious.
\_ You're dumb.
\_ She married a Jew, so (like it says at the bottom) she
converted to Judaism.
\_ mmm....Jewish Korean American princess. Is that double
the maintenance? *bwahaha*
\_ Page says she's chinese, not korean. Does that make you a
racist?
\_ God damned right! I am a racist! Korean American Princesses
are so high-maintenance, it's a wonder anyone marries them
at all. I have no idea how high-maintenance Chinese American
Princesses are or if such a concept exists.
\_ Was your Korean gf high-maintenance, sky? |
| 2005/6/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37948 Activity:high |
6/2 http://tinyurl.com/cdksf Average Asian boy IQ=118, average Asian girl IQ=110, average Caucasian boy IQ=108, average Caucasian girl IQ=100. What about Blond Caucasian girl IQ and non-Blond Caucasian girl? You know, like, they totally need to redo this test, like, totally! \_ "Did the "liberals" in education [read: jews]..." are you the same guy as below? \_ Standarad Deviation? That's pretty important here. \_ So men are smarter than women? \_ Berkeley ranks top along with MIT! Rejoice! We're all winners!!! FYI some of the Bell Curve reviews at http://Amazon.com are hilarious! "Them damn Asians are spoiling my KKK world order!" http://csua.org/u/c9b \_ If that's the sort of thing you find entertaining, you may find this amusing: http://csua.org/u/c9c Amazon reviews of Wolfram's book. \- helo there is an article about smart ashkanazim in this week's e'ist. \_ All you people who commented, should look at the URL. It is so overtly racist that I find it hard to credit their "facts": I suspect they've been twisted somewhat to suit an agenda. \_ Dude it's so overtly racist that "twisted somewhat" is giving it way more credit than it deserves. To the person who posted this I sure as hell hope you are a troll, which just makes you mostly a pathetic excuse for a person. |
| 2005/5/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37830 Activity:moderate |
5/25 Help rebuild the Gaza home that Rachel Corrie gave her life to defend.
Our special guests:
Cindy and Craig Corrie - Rachel's parents
Samah and Khaled Nasrallah - The Palestinian family whose home
Rachel was trying to protect
Friday, June 10
7:30 p.m.
First Presbyterian Church
1140 Cowper Street, Palo Alto
$10 - $20 sliding scale - Wheelchair accessible
A portion of the proceeds from this event will be used to rebuild the
Nasrallah Family's home, then the next home and the next in Gaza,
where 3100 Palestinian homes have been demolished.
\_ The report also states that the army had\
not, in fact, intended to demolish a house,
but was searching for explosives in the
border area designated a security zone or
"no man's land" by Israel. No houses were
demolished on the day of Corrie's death,
but one of the houses she believed she was
protecting the home of pharmacist Dr.
Samid Nasrallah was damaged six months
later when the IDF knocked a hole in
one of its walls. The IDF eventually
demolished the house in January 2004,
according to the charity Rebuilding
Alliance, because it stood in the security
zone.
No tunnel. It was simply in the "security
zone." The whole tunnel defence is merely
a lie the apologists made up after the fact.
\_ Minor language point: I'd say she "lost" her life. She didn't
really intend to give it up.
\_ Why would anyone want to donate to a people who actively resent
the U.S.? I don't get it. If they want to get the U.S. out of
the Mid-East, why would they take our money? That's like giving
a quarter to a bum and having him spit in your face in return.
\_ "I" am not "the U.S". So the analogy does not hold.
\_ So you are not part of the U.S.? What else are you not part
of, the species Homo Sapiens? What the hell...
\_ I live in the U.S., but I'm not responsible for U.S.
middle east policy and in many cases I disagree with it
and understand some of the resentment. I don't apply
judgement based only on set membership. I don't judge
all Palestinians the same either as you appear to do.
\_ When I visited there, people seemed pretty nice to me and
a couple of complete strangers invited me into their homes
to eat after just a few minutes of conversation. "They" might
not like the U.S. but they liked me just fine. The U.S.
does a pretty piss poor job of representing me throughout
the world, to tell you the truth, especially these last
five years.
\_ Will it include a tunnel for smuggling weapons? You know, just to
be accurate.
\_ No tunnel was ever found under Nasrallah's home or ever even
accused of being there:
http://rafahpundits.com/2005/03/from-the-nasrallahs
http://csua.org/u/c6m
\_ Yeah, a few blogs really prove anything. Checking for stories
in the past, I can't find anything reliable which states there
was a tunnel or not.
\_ link:tinyurl.com/cww2a is a link to an editorial in the
Jerusalem post that claims there were no tunnels found
under the home that was about to be bulldozed. I find it
interesting that the IDF didn't finish bulldozing the house
until 6 months after Corrie's death (according to the
article). - danh
\_ Learn to format to 80 cols danh.
\_ "Today, March 16, marks the one-year anniversary of the
killing of our friend and colleague Rachel Corrie."
That sounds like a real unbiased source.
\_ hey i did hunt around a lot, and I couldn't find
anything authoritative that claimed that
there was a nest of palestinian weapon smuggling
tunnels under the house, I also think the IDF's
policy of bulldozing orchards and houses just
creates more problems later. - danh
\_ You're the one who claimed they would need a
smuggling tunnel to be accurate. How 'bout you put
up some evidence that that's true. Or how 'bout you
just fuck off.
\_ Yeah, this is pretty funny, they are trying
to get you to prove a negative.
\_ The IDF said there was a tunnel. There has
been no credible rebuttal.
\_ Because they're SO unbiased...
\_ Didn't say they were unbiased, but
they're the ones who would say why they
were performing the operation. If
someone's going to say there's no tunnel,
it'd be nice if they'd say how they know
that.
\_ Do you have a like for the IDF
\_ Do you have a link for the IDF
statement?
\_ Yeah, their penis is so big and
foreskin free.
\_ No, the IDF never said that. You are just
making shit up to try and make yourself
feel better.
\_ "Don't believe the news, it's controlled by Jews!"
-Berkeley protesters. (no joke)
\_ did she get a Darwin award for this one?
\_ Person vs. Bulldozer.
\_ Cf. Person vs. Tank, Tiananman Square, 6/4/89.
\_ If you stfw for "corrie +idf +tunnel"
you'll be hard-pressed to find anything
that even remotely purports to not be
a propaganda site (pro- or anti-Israeli)
albeit one that isn't really worthwhile
claims the Israeli consul to SF said
the IDF were engaged in clearing bushes
used to cover tunnels. Whatever;
running people over with bulldozers is
bad, standing in front of bulldozers is
stupid. -John
\_ it worked for Arthur Dent!
\_ "Don't believe the news, it's controlled by Jews!"
-Berkeley protesters. (no joke)
\_ did she get a Darwin award for this one?
\_ Person vs. Bulldozer.
\_ Cf. Person vs. Tank, Tiananman Square, 6/4/89.
\_ Actually, his house didn't make it
either.
\_ If not for froody Ford Prefect
Arthur would have been flattened.
\_ He would have been vaporized
before he got a chance to be
flattened.
\_ Some people have tried to claim
that the building demolishment was
part of an IDF tunnel clearing
program. Perhaps that is true,
in any case, no tunnel was ever
found underneath or near the house
she was trying to protect.
\_ I can't believe no one has tried to troll this post.
\_ I can't believe you weren't awake yesterday. This post
had a big followup to it yesterday. I guess the MOTD censor
trimmed it all. FYI, contributing to middle east causes may
be dangerous to your potential status as a U.S. citizen. If
you are a green card holder be careful about what you donate
to.
\_ Just give cash.
\_ Why would you give money to people who hate America? Only George
Bush is allowed to do that. |
| 2005/4/1-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37036 Activity:nil |
4/1 How come Palestinians want luxury homes demolished? Do they have
plans to build grass huts on the same land?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4401921.stm
\_ I don't know, this sounds right in line with their usual
antics. They're more interested in hurting the Isrealis in
any petty way possible (including a measly $20 mil demolition
fee) than they are in helping their own people.
\_ What a scam. The settlers got paid money to move to Gaza, free
luxury homes paid for by US tax dollars, and now they are getting
paid 1/4M (or is it 1/2M now) to move. |
| 2005/3/28-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36924 Activity:nil |
3/28 Are the Settlers nuts enough to really start a civil war?
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050328/1/3rhs6.html |
| 2005/3/27-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Recreation/Sports] UID:36907 Activity:nil |
3/27 This is just wacked. "A Dutch Soccer Riddle: Jewish Regalia Without
Jews". http://csua.org/u/bi9 |
| 2005/3/21-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36789 Activity:nil |
3/21 GNOME/Mono dude visits Lebanon refugee camps:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2005/Mar-18.html
\_ In case you are not familiar with Robert Fisk, here's an
(admittedly adversarial, having been written by a pro-Israel
watchdog) introduction:
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Dishonest_Reporting_-Award-_for_2001.asp#fisk |
| 2005/3/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36736 Activity:moderate |
3/17 http://csua.org/u/bem [seattlepi] So, it turns out idiocy is genetic. Rachel Corrie's parents suing Caterpillar because apparently IDF's use of bulldozers to uncover weapons smuggling tunnels (which is specifically what they were doing when Rachel decided to kill herself with one) is not only a human rights violation, but also somehow Caterpillar's problem. (Whoever is censoring this: what's your problem?) 5A \_ Maybe their problem is that you're a callous asshat? \_ Really now? So I should empathize with someone who in her self-righteousness jumps (literally) in the way of a country's attempt to keep terrorists from murdering its citizens? Interesting. \_ Hi troll. Have you ever lost a family member? \_ Yes. And up until today, I had a lot of sympathy for her parents. Now that they're _clearly_ abusing their own daughter's death to further a political agenda (note that the suit complains about "human rights" specifically), whatever sympathy I had for them is gone. -op \_ They're not suing the Israelis. They're suing the BULLDOZER MANUFACTURER. Think. Think. Think. -John \_ She was stopping a country's attempt to bulldoze houses. Houses in an area occupied by said country's army. \_ ...Which they long since would not have been had the locals not been consistently attacking said country, using weapons smuggled through tunnels with exits inside these very houses. Which part of "necessary defense against guerilla warfare" do you not understand? \_ Except that's BS and Israel stopped doing it because it was BS. \_ Where's your proof that it was BS? I have tons of proof that is NOT BS. If you want proof that it's NOT BS all you have to do is go to the various cemetaries of the victims of suicide bombings. \_ There's actually a big difference between proof and sensationalism. You've shown that you're very good with the latter...now, can you settle down and provide substantive information? \_Uh, that's not proof of what you are claiming. \- I've never been accused of being a Zionist but I also think this is stupid. I assume this is an attempt to keep the story/issue in the next rather than shakedown the Caterpillar Corp, but still ... \_ Pity they didn't repost Corrie's picture. She was pretty cute. \_ http://images.google.com \_ Actually IDF is using those bulldozers for wiping out the houses of the relatives of the suicide bombers. In addition, they were used to destroy any buildings that posed a threat to Israeli settlers or military. Rachel Corrie's blog seemed to suggest that those bulldozers were being used quite indiscriminately. \_ Even if that's true I have a pretty hard time blaming Cat. \_ Isn't suing CAT the equivalent to suing Smith & Wesson for a murder, which as long since proven unsubstantiated? \_ Suing CAT might or might not be stupud. I was just correcting op's sensationalist reporting about the role of CAT bulldozers in IDF. \_ I haven't read the pleadings but I'm guessing that they are suing Cat on a tort theory of strict product liability alleging that Cat breached their duty to provide a non-defective prod in its reasonably foreseeable use and this caused her death. If I were them I would allege a design defect arguing that the placement of the armor, &c. created an excessively dangerous product and that the danger was preventable. Her family could point out that b/c the driver couldn't see people well, he could easily drive over ppl and that the likelihood of that happening was pretty high. You'd have to come up with some feasible alternatives. An alternative would be to argue that the bulldozer is per se unreasonably dangerous. If they are going under this type of tort theory, the problem will really be assumption of the risk and/or comparative fault. Even if the ct finds that she didn't assume the risk of death by running in front of a bulldozer, she was likely negligent in running in front of the bulldozer, thus any recovery will be offset by her level of negligence, which in this case is quite high. NOTE: I would not have brought such a claim. \_ Does cat even put the armor on the bulldozers? I thought the IDF bolted the stuff on after-market. "Caterpillar Inc. does not manufacture a military version of the D9 per se..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Caterpillar_D9 -John \_ Well, that's about the evilest looking bulldozer I ever saw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:D9-idf_pic214.jpg \_ I assumed that Cat put the armor on for the IDF. If Cat did not put the armor on for the IDF, it will be harder to bring a strict products liability claim. However it may still be possible if they allege that the modification was foreseeable b/c Cat sold it to the IDF knowing it would be modified. |
| 2005/3/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36513 Activity:moderate |
3/3 The top post is awesome
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog
\_ Well, now it's the second post.
\_ I see more posts dated today than I'm willing to read on a
Shithead(tm) site. Please identify exactly which post you
think is "awesome."
\_ I'm betting this one: http://tinyurl.com/5bpuc |
| 2005/3/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36481 Activity:very high |
3/2 Interesting writeup on how Palestinian terror is fundamentally
flawed, and must be abandoned.
http://www.techcentralstation.com/022805A.html
\_ " If the possession of an enormous stockpile of nuclear
weapons does not make you a sovereign state, it is
difficult to say what would."
\_ Who is right and who is wrong? Here is something for you
good Christians to memorize:
good = Christians > Jews > Other Religions > Muslims
In another word, Christians are always right. Any question?
\_ Can't argue with the article, huh?
\_ The whole article is filled with so many distortions and outright
falsehoods that it is not worth bothering with. I suppose you
think that the Palestinians should just all leave or die
and give their land over to the Settlers. Because if they
did not defend themselves, that is what would have happened.
had not defended themselves, that is what would have happened.
But I cannot argue with his conclusions, no matter how error
filled and fallacious his argument is.
\_ You don't need a whole article.
If your side has suicide bombers blowing up civilians, you're
on the wrong side. This is debatable, but if you try to debate
the legitimacy of suicide bombers blowing up civilians, I'd say
you were also on the losing side of the debate.
\_ If you are on the side of people taking other people's land
and tearing down their houses, you are on the losing
side of the debate.
\_ If the two sides are: Blow up civilians with suicide bombers;
and assassinating the leaders of those responsible for
the bombings with innocent lives (including children) lost
in the assassinations, and demolishing the homes of innocent
people who are related by blood to the bombers -- guess which
side is the losing side?
\_ Both sides.
\_ Okay. But let's say you didn't have to ally yourself
with a side. Let's say you were judging which side
is worse. Which would it be?
\_ The PA is automatically worse because their goal
of destroying Israel is, and always has been,
fantasy. If they had stated asked for a two
state solution, they would've had it years ago.
\_ The point is, if your side has suicide bombers
killing civilians with the goal being to kill
as many civilians as possible to help your side,
you're on the wrong side.
\_ Sooo... we have 2 different reasons why PA
is worse than Israel. Will none stand
for the Palestinian cause?
\_ Maybe as soon as they stop with the
organized suicide bombers blowing up
civilians.
And you know, who knows, that might happen.
\_ The PA's goal has not been the destruction of
Isreal for at least a decade now. What is your
excuse for assassinating the Palestinian
leadership and blowing up their civic institutions?
Oh yeah, you have no one to negotiate with. What
a dumbass argument. You kill all the leaders
of a group and then castigate them for not
having any leaders. It is hard to imagine
a more immoral policy.
\_ Which group are you talking about? The
Palestinian people as a group or a subgroup
within in?
\_ PA stands for Palestinian Authority.
\_ The question is, does the PA support
suicide bombing?
\_ Certainly not today. The official
stance of Arafat was that he was
opposed to them after 1982(?), but
others think that he secretly supported
them. A claim like that is hard to
refute or prove, either way.
\_ Did Israel assassinate Arafat;
or other PA leaders not associated
with groups that support suicide
bombing?
\_ If the leaders being assassinated head a group
which supports suicide bombers, it's not a bad
idea to kill them.
If the leaders being assassinated oppose
suicide bombing, it's a pretty bad idea to kill
them.
\_ Why not simply arrest them and bring them
to trail? Why the need for extra judicial
killing guaranteed to have collateral
civilian casualties?
\_ Why the need for suicide bombings against
civilians which are guaranteed to have
civilian casualties?
Why not simply protest the occupation
and hold demonstrations?
\_ Which is better, being blind or being deaf? Either
way, you lose. Better/worse here is semantics at
best, trivialization more like. Suicide bombings are
terrible and reprehensible; so's land grabbing.
Neither justifies or excuses the other.
\_ I doubt it. You're the one who's arguing
semantics. Clearly, suicide bombing is worse
in this case.
\_ Land grabbing is worse, cause the motivation
is greed.
\_ "Land grabbing" in general is bad.
In the specific context of punishing the
other side because they won't stop using
suicide bombers -- suicide bombing is
clearly worse -- and it should be obvious
that the primary motivations are punishment
and (perhaps) protection, not greed.
\_ The land grabbing obviously came first.
And is it worse to kill civilians via
suicide bomber or rocket from a
helicopter? They seem equivalent to me.
\_ Okay, you land grab from my people.
I start blowing up your people with
suicide bombers. I think the second
part is worse. A much more sane
response is anything not involving
suicide bombers.
The Man is going to screw with you and
your livelihood. However, you are
strengthening The Man by using suicide
bombers.
Killing civilians from a helicopter
!= killing civilians from a helicopter
as a result of their being innocent
bystanders while targeting the
leaders of suicide bombers;
Killing civilians from a helicopter
~= killing civilians with a suicide
bomber
\_ If your argument is that using
suicide bombers is impolitic,
you have no quibble with me.
If your argument is that the
Palestinians do not have the
same right to self-defence that
everyone else in the world has,
then we are going to have to
agree to disagree.
\_ "right to self-defence" does
not include suicide bombing of
civilians with the intent to
kill as many civilians as
possible
\_ How do you feel about the
bombing of the King David
Hotel by Irgun?
\_ I am not answering your
question directly, but can
say: If Irgun existed
today, and planned suicide
bombings in 2005 with the
intent to kill as many
civilians as possible, the
leaders of Irgun should be
killed.
\_ Why does it matter so
much to you what the
method of delivery is?
If it is wrong today,
it was wrong in 1946
and visa versa, in
my opinion.
\_ Anyways, thanks
for arguing with me.
This has led me
to think more about
Nagasaki. |
| 2005/2/25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36424 Activity:kinda low |
2/25 This is what Palestinians mean when they say "cease fire":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4299609.stm
\_ The bomb was planted by a militant group that never agreed
to the ceasefire, and is actively trying to sabotage
negotiations. Same old shit...
\_ except Arafat is dead now
\_ Anyone who thought that was going to change much of anything
was living in a fantasy world. Both the Israelies and the
Palestinians are paralyzed by the demands of their hard
line factions - the idea that the death of one man would
change that seems a bit silly. |
| 2005/2/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36218 Activity:low |
2/17 Abbas takes a hard line against terrorism by killing "collaborators."
http://csua.org/u/b3m
\_ Sharon just runs over his collaborators with a bulldozer. |
| 2005/2/8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36102 Activity:high |
2/8 Bets on how long before the Israelis and Palestinians start shooting
again? Is Vegas in on it yet? I give it two weeks.
\_ Well, considering Hamas claims the cease fire doesn't apply to
them, I'd say, not long. It's a pretty classic pattern.
Palestinian government calls cease fire, but doesn't enforce
it. Radicals kill some Isrealis. Isrealis kill some radicals.
Palestinians go back to endorsing terrorism because the Isralis
broke the cease fire.
\_ The PA doesn't "enforce it" because they are not powerful
enough. Then Isreal punishes the PA for not enforcing it
by rocketing their jails and killing some of their leaders,
making them even less able to enforce it. General idiocy by
both sides abounds. |
| 2005/1/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35851 Activity:moderate |
1/21 More fun from Bus 19 in Berkeley:
http://www.zombietime.com/bus_19_berkeley/part_2
"Don't believe the news, it's controlled by the Jews! "
\_ Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that the Palestinians
don't blame the Germans. After all, if there wasn't a
holocaust there may have not been an Israel. Of course,
if there had been no WWII they'd still all be british
colonies.
\_ The animosity from Muslims to Jews is written is the Quran.
"Jews are evil" is practically part of the religion.
\_ Well I KNOW news is controlled by the Jews, that's the only reason
I believe it.
\_ this is no different between liberals and conservatives, each with
strong and incompatible ideologies. It's actually like motd.
\_ What irritates me the most is not these idiots, nor the ones
waving "love-it-or-leave-it" signs at NASCAR events--in fact, I'm
encouraged by the fact that they're able to do this at all. I am
just discouraged by the existence of people who actually believe
this sort of claptrap. -John |
| 2005/1/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35768 Activity:nil |
1/18 Did anyone go out to see the Bus 19 protest stuff in Berkeley?
http://underscorebleach.net/content/misc/zombie/bus_19_berkeley
\_ But wait, Palestine is a democracy now! I thought once a nation
had elections terrorists magically evaporated.
\_ No, it's when everyone has guns all crime with magically
stop! Er, wait, that doesn't hold up either.. |
| 2005/1/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35630 Activity:high |
1/9 I have a question. I've heard at least 1 person on the motd refer
to the military occupation of Palestine, or some similar term.
I've also seen signs that say, "End the Israeli Occupation of
Palestine" around campus. What are you suggesting when you say
this? That all the Israelis should leave Palestine? A two state
solution? -jrleek
\_ There are a range of possible meanings depending on who is
saying it. Some folks (most notably the group behind Internat'l
A.N.S.W.E.R.) advocate no Israeli presence in Palestine at all. As
you might guess, this is not very many people, even among poll of
Palestinians. For most folks likely to say this, I believe this
means a roll back to the pre-1967 border, including abandonment or
at least, demilitarization of the settlements in the West Bank and
the Gaza Strip. Israelis could remain. They would become citizens
of the new state the way Arab-Israelis are citizens of Israel.
That's my understanding, anyway. Does that help?-- ulysses
\_ Yeah, thanks. -jrleek
\_ Middle east is the land promised to the Jews by God, just like
America is the land promised to Mormons by God. Are you an
atheist?
\_ aaron, is that you?
\_ It might be an incredible simulation.
\_ My grandma believes that (Middle East -> Jews)
\_ I think we should rollback to when Great Britain controlled
it. Wouldn't that be so much better and also historically
appropriate? Look what happens when you give these people their
own government. Hmmm. Maybe cede it back to Italy (Rome).
While we are at it we should give California and Texas
back to Mexico, or is that to the Native Americans?
\_ Ah, let's just send all of these newcomers back where they
came from. Half of me can be sent to Denmark, while the other
two quarters can be divided equally throughout Ireland and
Poland.
\_ The BEST argument I've heard re the two state soln is that the
the land belonged to the poor Palestinian and the EVIL JEWS took
it from them in 1947. How would you like it if someone came to
your house and took it from you I'm asked. However this view of
history is quite wrong and overlooks the historic possession
of Palestine by the Jews going back to the time of David (some
3000 yrs ago). The better question to ask people who believe
in no Israel or a two state soln is: If you were driven from
your house and wrongfully imprisioned for a long time, when you
finally made it back home and you found some squatters claiming
that your land was really theirs WTF would you do? Leave them
to it? I'll bet you would.
\_ No I would slaughter them all and rape their women and feast
on their goats.
\_ But the fundamental difference is that the people who were
forcibly ejected from their homes in 1947 are still around,
or at least some of them are. Things that mythically happened
2 or 3 thousand years ago can't be followed with a clear title
claim. We can right the injustice of the wrong to an indvidual,
but at some point, you have to let the past be the past. Do you
think the US should give all its land back to the Natives, too?
\_ Not only that but who knows but that some of those
Palestinians are also descended from some ancient Jews? And
In the Roman empire some Jews voluntarily moved around.
\_ I think the point here is that the land belongs to the
Jews now because Britain, which conquered it, essentially
gave it to them. The Palestinians have no more claim to
the land than the Spanish do to Mexico. Just because
'they were living there' does not make it theirs. Jews
were living there, too.
\_ If we are talking about title (and I was not), perhaps you
should consider that the current inhabitants have acquired
clear title via adverse possession.
I was simply pointing out that the argument of priority is
ridiculous and when taken to its logical conclusion it
yields as result not favorable to those who expouse it.
Personally I don't think that the US should give land back
to anyone and I don't think Israel ought to yield one single
inch either. |
| 2005/1/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35538 Activity:high |
1/4 If Washington wants to boost America's image in the Muslim world, why
didn't Powell go directly to Indonesia instead of Thailand? Better
yet, why didn't Bush send someone higher like Chaney or even go there
himself? That would've been a big boost if Bush show himself there
even if he leaves the real work to someone else. (The prime minister
of Singapore went to Indonesia himself, for example, not that
Singapore has an image problem.)
\_ Powell got sent because they're building him up for something big
later on-- it's pretty much the same reason he presided over the
NYC New Year's Eve apple-dropping. Thailand is a strong US ally,
and BushCo have a pattern of recognizing allies first, potential
allies second; it's their way of rewarding loyalty.
\_ OK. I'll bite. What are they building Powell up big for
later on? Is he running for U.S. President in 08? Or the
U.N. Secretary General in 06? I thought Clinton wanted that
position?
\_ I'll bite too. What could they build him up for, since he
has vowed to leave politics?
\_ Pope.
\_ Because our image can't be changed in the Muslim world until the
Mullahs stop preaching hatred of the USA, or the people have enough
freedom to learn for themselves that we're not the great Satan.
\_ If Washington wants to change their image in the middle east,
they should simply not overthrow any more mossadeghs, not
support israel, and not invade any more iraqs.
\_ You've never spent much time with Arabs have you?
\_ You mean "crazed, fundamentalist Arabs". Lots of Arabs
are perfectly rational people.
\_ In my small experiance, most of the ones who come to
the states are perectly rational people. The ones
stuck in fascist hellholes are nuts because all they
hear is propoganda 24-7. It's hard to be rational
when your whole life experiance is insane. That's
what I was trying to get at above.
\_ you forgot that 53% of the Americans don't really care about what
the world thinks about U.S. Only sissy peacenik gay liberals
care what other people think about themselves. -conservative |
| 2004/11/21 [Recreation/Humor, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35003 Activity:nil |
11/21 jotd: The day that doctors announced that Yasser Arafat is in a
vegetative state, a Palestinian newspaper published the headline
"The Great Leader is Brain Dead." If this were published in the
United States of America, no one would really have noticed.
\_ har. get a life. -tom |
| 2004/11/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34908 Activity:nil 60%like:34905 |
11/15 Canadians love Arafat too!
http://tinyurl.com/42bqr |
| 2004/11/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34905 Activity:nil 60%like:34908 |
11/15 Canadians love Arafat too! http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/11/12/710607.html |
| 2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:34826 Activity:high |
11/11 Arafat was... Gay?
http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=350
\_ I think he really died of BEING OLD
\_ this is first time you have heard this!? You live under
a rock?
\_ love how they write Palestinian in quotes. "So-called 'leader'
of 'nation' mourned by 'people'."
\_ Hearing it from an Israeli source makes it less believable.
\_ No, hearing it from something that sounds like the Israeli
equivalent of the Arch-freeper makes it less believable.
\_ I thought it read more like the New York Post.
\_ NYP is Nobel literature compared to this shit. It's more
like the pro-muslim/pro-Israeli nutjobs at Sather Gate.
\_ Just for the hell of it, I went and read the NYP's
article from today on Arafat for comparison, and
you're absolutely right. This is far kookier.
\_ "medical experts believe the blood-soaked Muslim terror
chief is dying from complications related to the AIDS
virus." Any paper use this kind of language cannot be trusted.
\_ Heh, that's why I posted it. I thought it was funny. |
| 2004/11/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34820 Activity:insanely high |
11/10 The bastard finally died. Arafat RIH.
http://www.cnn.com
http://tinyurl.com/ufse
\_ you're not jewish by chance, are you?
\_ only jews hate murdering thieving terrorist thugs? god save
the human race if thats true....
\_ no- only jews hate arafat and what he believed in.
\_ sheesh, troll. go away trollboy. so stupid and obvious.
\_ And what was that exactly? What principles was he
upholding by stealing billions of dollars of his
own people's money? What principles was he upholding
by slaughtering innocent civilians?
\_ when did he steal his own people's $ ?
\_ *blanch* He's estimated to have stolen
upwards of $5 billion. Here's a low-ball
from CBS. -!pp
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml
\_ i hope you will make similar comments when bush, or putin
or sharon dies. if not i hope god kills you soon.
\_ Umm.. right. Call me when you get back to reality.
\_ if you can't tell the difference between arafat and these
three you're hopeless. i know the motd well enough to know
you're probably not a troll. that's the sad part.
\_ Arafat was a Communist / Soviet agent. Good riddance.
\_ All these rumors about Arafat stealing are all lies spread
by the Israelis.
\_ Where else does his wife's 5-figure monthly allowance come from?
\_ Hey, they have lots of admirers and supporters including rich
Arabs. No biggie. Probably comes from your gas guzzling
SUV.
\_ Arafat was the father of the modern Palestinian statehood movement.
All decent people despise him for that. |
| 2004/11/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34744 Activity:very high |
11/8 Religion of peace, though they look like La Raza
Jihad at San Francisco State
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15855
\_ All of these kids are definitely eligible for the Alec Baldwin
\_ Hey, I'm not the one complaining about every little thing
that's wrong in the U.S. I didn't agree with the Iraq war,
but then I don't agree with a lot of things that the
government does. Does that mean I bitch and moan about
it all day and threaten to leave? No, because for all
its fault the U.S. isn't like a really horrible place to
life. If you think that, hey, you can leave, and I'm
willing to help defray your cost for leaving. Seems
logical to me. So what's your beef? -williamc
\_ So every time someone bitches and moans about it, you're
going to bitch and moan about them bitching and moaning?
Get a grip, son. Let them vent their frustration without
adding to the useless din.
Pledge Fund. I say we pool our money together and send the
\_ Well, nobody is forcing anybody out of the country, but
a lot of people have expressed that they do want to leave,
so why not help them? Seems pretty damn logical to me.
I mean, if someone keeps complaining about the food in a
restaurant, then why do you keep coming back to it? It's not
like you HAVE to eat there. That's the wonderful concept of
free will. If you don't like it, you can leave. If you don't
like the U.S. and you're saying that everything sucks, then
there's like a whole other world to live in. So my question
is, why are you still here if you complain about it so much?
-williamc
\_ You know what, you're right. Then again, the whole
concept of a free society is that you have the right to
try and change the things you don't like, and to mouth
off about that as much as you want, without people telling
you "if you don't like it, why not just leave?" Note that
I use "right" not in its constitutional sense, but rather
in the common sense (as in "I have the right to not have
to deal with blithering morons.") -John
\_ Uhm yeah. I think very few people that actually say this
really want to do that; it's an expression of the general
turmoil in the nation. The fact that you need this pointed
out to you is kind of sad.
Palestinians back to Palestine and the rest to Canada.
-williamc
\_ William, I'm sure the ABPF would benefit greatly if you pledged
to go with the exiles.
\_ Hey, I'm not the one complaining about every little thing
that's wrong in the U.S. I didn't agree with the Iraq war,
but then I don't agree with a lot of things that the
government does. Does that mean I bitch and moan about
it all day and threaten to leave? No, because for all
its fault the U.S. isn't like a really horrible place to
life. If you think that, hey, you can leave, and I'm
willing to help defray your cost for leaving. Seems
logical to me. So what's your beef? -williamc
\_ Will, first of all you're perpetuating a myth that makes
leftie celebs like Alex Baldwin look like idiots. Stop.
They don't need any help doing that. Second, the last
thing this country needs is lib-flight to the Great White
North; contrary to what ppl post on freep, we _need_ an
opposition here (including you, apparently), so stop
trying to buy tickets for people and start convincing
them to take up the fight right here.
\_ Well, I can't vouch for leftie celebs, I don't know
them. But if they make stupid statements like "I
will leave the country if XYZ gets elected" then
I call them like I see them. I generally have a low
opinion of most celebs, as I've worked in Hollywood
for a limited time and wasn't impressed with the
people in the system. I completely concur that we
need an opposition, and although I'm a fiscal
conservative I respect others for having a different
opinion. What I don't like is the defeatist attitude
that seems to pervade the left. The reason why
the conservatives (and in california I am pretty
much a conservative by context, although I have
no great love of fundementalism or creationism and
I do believe gay people should have rights) is that
we (meaning the conservative people that I associate
with on a daily basis who have similar beliefs as I
do) seem to have a more "can do" attitude. Maybe it's
because we've worked for what we have. Maybe it's
just that conservatives have faith in their religion
or themselves or both. Whatever it is, the left is
just shooting themselves in the foot because they
don't attract people like myself and my friends.
The radical agenda of the left is just so off
putting and defeatist. If the left wants to win
then stop whining and start putting up. Fight the
creationists, fight the anti-choice proponents,
fight the racists, fight ignorance. But if you
on the left continue to expound defeatist attitudes,
if you on the left fail to come together and find
resolve, then you are a truly doomed party. The
democratic party just doesn't reach out to people
in the middle anymore, and it gives off the impression
of liberal elitism that nobody is impressed with.
In addition, if I respect your views although they
are different from mine, I expect you to do the same
for me, and I have found very little tolerance from
the liberals for my conservative views on certain
subjects. That just makes me NOT want to deal with
whiny defeatist liberals. If you're going to leave,
then leave.
-williamc
\_ Okay, look. The dems just lost a very acrimonious,
potentially impactful election. If you think that
whining and 'defeatist attitude' is unique to the
Dems, then either you're blinding yourself, or
you're too young to remember Clinton's reelection.
As for the absurd generalization that 'lefties are
defeatest', I've worked and associated with both
sides and have found alot of that can-do attitude
(that you allege is only extant on the R side) on the
D side as well. I've also found alot of rabidly
hostile and absurdly destructive whininess from the
R side. Your one sided experience doesn't say so
much about the D/left side to me as it does about
your objectivity. Deporting people because they're
upset isn't very can-do, IMO -- it's petulant and
stinks of puerile 'tit-for-tat'. Either put up and
figure out how to address their problems and find a
way to make it work, or stop being part of the
problem by injecting more emotion and invective
into the mix. Your attitude in this matter heavily
undermines your assertion about 'can-do-on-the-right'
btw. -POC
\_ Again, you are making sweeping assumptions about
what is stated. First off, I made no suggestion
that ANYBODY be deported. Deportation is the
forceful removal of individuals from this country.
I advocate no such thing. I merely say unto those
who state that they will leave the country for
greener pastures if so-and-so is elected that
they put their money where their mouth is and
follow through with their pledges. Second, I have
had extensive experience dealing with liberals,
having been involved as an ASUC senator for a year.
Basically everyone in Berkeley politics is pretty
far out liberal and there are very few middle of
the roaders or strict conservatives. The experience
has merely been reinforced in the "real world."
As for "tit-for-tat", it appears that YOU are
the one with the beef, not me. I have already
stated that I respect others right to differing
viewpoints, and I would welcome the input of those
on the opposite side of the fence. I have never
been and never will be a strict conservative or a
strict liberal. They are merely stupid labels
for the mentally incapable which you apparently
appear to be. Your defense of liberal defeatism
is also exceedingly weak. Boohooo, you lost the
election. Get over it, stop being acrimonious
because it's not working. It hasn't worked for
the past 10 years. Yes, both parties are at
fault for being acrimonious. I was there when
Limbaugh was king of radio, I was there when
Lewinsky-gate developed, I was there during the
Dole debates, hell, I was there when when Dukakis
stuck his head out of the tank. I was even
there when Geraldine Ferraro was running for VP.
So don't make assumptions that you can't back.
The point is that neither left nor right has
all the answers, and it is important to learn
how to work together on issues. So, stop being
so politically devisive yourself, stop pandering
to the leftist dogma or the the rightist dogma,
start using reason and common sense to come to
policy, stop towing the party line, and start
owning up to your words. All I ask is that
people do what they say and say what they
do, and all I can say is that from my experience
the moderates and conservatives seem a lot less
flaky to owning up to their words. -williamc
\_ Actually, I'm calling you a hypocrite, an
accusation which you've largely substantiated.
ASUC senate isn't representative of anything
real, as anybody with half a brain would
(or should, at any rate) know. Yes: neither
side as all the answers, but from your rhetoric
it seems rather hard to believe that you
actually ascribe to that, rather than using it
as a lever to gain the moral highground. Yes,
let's work together on the issues and stop
bandying about such absurdly undescriptive
binary labels as 'liberal' or 'conservative'.
It's interesting that, despite all your avowals
of moderate objectivism, you STILL continue to
inject divisiveness even as you assert your
superiority and ability not to be subject to
it. I never defended the left's whininess,
which you'd have realized if you were paying
attention; I pointed out that it's NOT UNIQUE
to the left, counter to your earlier
assertions. The point should be obvious,
namely that being in denial of this fact only
shows that you're likely part of the problem.
Again, if you'd been paying attention to
anything I said, you'd have also noted that I
was pretty clear about referencing that I've
seen positive attitude on BOTH sides, as well
as negative. I suspect that both sides are
very large populations of people, and asserting
any facile generalization about behavior to
one side or the other is, at best, self-
serving. Perhaps this conversation would best
be continued offline, since it's clear we're
just going to be wasting bits here. -POC
\_ YEAH! USA! #1! If you don't like it, get the fuck out! -John
\_ Well, nobody is forcing anybody out of the country, but
a lot of people have expressed that they do want to leave,
so why not help them? Seems pretty damn logical to me.
I mean, if someone keeps complaining about the food in a
restaurant, then why do you keep coming back to it? It's not
like you HAVE to eat there. That's the wonderful concept of
free will. If you don't like it, you can leave. If you don't
like the U.S. and you're saying that everything sucks, then
there's like a whole other world to live in. So my question
is, why are you still here if you complain about it so much?
-williamc
\_ Dude, relax, it's not like any of them will have jobs beyond
"sales executive" after graduating from college. -John
\_ ...which is likely to mean they'll cause more trouble rather
than less.
\_ Erm, picture Al Bundy rioting. -John
\_ I think there was a labor day episode about that.
And the beer tax episode. In fact, Al Bundy riots
a fair amount. -- ilyas
\_ a joke?
\_ THE AMERICAN LEFT HAS NO HISTORY OF VIOLENCE!
\_ Boohoo, I got slapped by a 98 pound woman. I am going to cry
and whine about how I am oppressed!
\_ You go/went to a university where a guy can get busted because
some woman 'feels' you oppressed her but it's ok for her to
slug you and then jump you? Okey dokey! No double standard
there! Good thinking! Is it ok if she knifes you? Clubs
you? Shoots you? You're a knucklehead.
\_ She did not slug the guy or jump him or stab him
or shoot him, she slapped him. Stick to reality please.
And you are a pussy if you think being slapped by a
woman is a big deal.
woman is a big deal. My guess is that you have never
been in a real fight or slapped by a real woman ever
in your life.
\_ She jumped him and had to have 3 cops pull her off.
If that is a-ok with you because it was a woman hitting
a man then please join william's org and find a new
country where it is ok to abuse someone because of
their gender and blame the victim and call the victim
names. If it was a conservative woman, say Ann Coulter,
who hit a liberal guy, say you(!!!) then you'd be
screaming bloody murder and pressing every charge in
the book. Hypocrite.
\_ Uh, no, actually if it was AC I'd happily beat the
living shit out of her and claim self-defense. Oh
wait...I just proved ilyas point, huh? Damn, I
better stop and reexamine myself or something.
\_ 1) "a noisy and menacing mob"? The barbarians are at the gates!
2) I thought an "entourage" needed someone to accompany.
3) You couldn't find a freeper link for this?
\_ 1) Huh?
2) True!
3) It's ok to attack people I don't agree with!
\_ A quick google will turn up pleanty of webpages about what
has been going on at SFSU. If you don't like frontpage, you
can read the same story a dozen other places.
\_ I've got nothing in the news. Can you point me to a reputable
source for these stories? I'm not trusting FPM on this any
more than I'd trust Mother Jones on a labor conspiracy.
\_ This stuff has been going on at SFSU for years. If you
don't know about it by now... sheesh.
\_ Does "sheesh" = "you must not go to SFSU"?
\_ That's true, it doesn't seem to have appeared in the
news. I have to idea what you would consider
news. I have no idea what you would consider
reputable, and I'm pretty sure you can google as well
as I can. I found a couple of eye-witness accounts,
and an editorial on why the SFSU president did the
right thing in about a minute.
\_ Let's see: Jihad Watch, the Great Separation, and
Front Page Mag are the only ones I get via Google.
Share the ones you've found? The editorial sounds
interesting.
\_ Hmm.. I made a mistake. Most of these links
refer to an earlier incident. Here's the stuff
about the earlier incident, I'll look some more
for this more recent one.
Cron: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/05/15/BA110132.DTL
Present professor: http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/128582_comment.php
Editorial :http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020524/comm2.shtml
\_ Thank you. The Chron link was plenty, and,
all jokes about its epitaph "the Comical" aside,
this is an actualy news story. That said, wtf?
this is an actual news story. That said, wtf?
C'mon, SFSU kids, less aggro, more solutions.
\_ I had a class at Cal about the history of the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Very fair,
interesting Israeli professor, students were
ca. 30% MSU, 30% IAC and 30% "other". I can
definitely see these turds at SFSU as being
for real after that experience. -John
\_ And 10%??? (MSU == MSA?)
\_ Liberal arts, we're not real good at
complex math. It used to be called MSU
as I recall. They and IAC were the ones
always screaming at each other at
Sather gate. -John
\_ You're a liberal arts major?WTF?
\_ Bite me. -!John |
| 2004/11/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34689 Activity:moderate |
11/5 Arafat on machines, in "reversible coma" (from his spokesman)
\_ One interesting conspiracy theory I heard from an israeli friend
of mine is that Arafat is actually dead, but is instead being
'slowly phased out,' to prevent Palestinian infighting. -- ilyas
\_ Wouldn't you also need to slowly phase someone else in?
\_ Could be a power struggle behind the scenes right now.
\_ I don't think that's much of a conspiracy, I think it's
pretty obviously what they're doing.
\_ That could be true, but totally unrelated to any conspiracy
theory. They publicly said that he wouldn't be pronounced
dead until they determine a burial site, since religious
rules dictate that he needs to be buried within 48 hours
of his death. So they might very well delay the announcement
of his death.
\_ Rumors of my death have been greatly enumerated.
\_ check out this world tribune article:
http://216.26.163.62/2004/me_palestinians_11_04.html
\_ The Swiss win again!
\_ Damn straight. Now where'd I put those gold teeth? -John |
| 2004/10/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34457 Activity:moderate |
10/30 There's a lot of interesting stuff in here about internal Jewish
division and Israel politics and their relationship with Hamas.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3972
\_ This is pretty frothing-at-the-mouth stuff.
\_ What? Did you read it? Read the Hamas quotes. What is frothing?
\_ It's an international jewish conspiracy to kill jews! |
| 2004/10/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:34364 Activity:nil |
10/26 Knesset approves Sharon plan to yank out the settlers:
http://csua.org/u/9nr (Bloomberg) |
| 2004/9/29 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33824 Activity:nil |
9/28 For extra fun, every time they say "Jew," substitute "homosexual"
and suddenly everyone sounds like Jimmy Swaggart!
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD79104
Oh, and if you're wondering what MEMRI's biases are, go here:
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=MEMRI
\_ What do you sound like when you replace "Jew" with "whitey"? |
| 2004/9/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33530 Activity:low |
9/14 Election trolls are boring, let's talk about Israel!
What will happen to the settler movement if they
pull off their threat to assassinate Sharon?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040914/325/f2lew.html
\_ why not talk about the election AND Israel...
see "Is Israel a swing state" link below...
\_ I read somewhere that there are about 2000 families basically
holding the rest of the country hostage. A lot of Israelis I've
spoken to expressed a great deal of anger and frustration with the
militant fringe and with the orthodox population at large--while
in favor of securing the country against mad bombers, they didn't
like having the nutcases speak for them. If the settlers did
whack Sharon, I wouldn't be surprised to see a certain wall
suddenly take small detours, putting various settlements on the
Palestinian side... -John |
| 2004/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33526 Activity:high |
9/14 "Is Israel 'Swing State' That Could Tip U.S. Election?"
http://csua.org/u/916 (Yahoo! News)
"Many say their choice will be guided more by whether they think Bush
or Kerry will best serve Israel's interests than by the candidates'
stand on taxes and other domestic issues." I think any citizens who
put another country/region's interests (be it Israel, Palestine, China,
Taiwan, ...) before US interest should have their citizenship stripped.
\_ Go back to China, troll.
\_ HUH? Where the hell have you been in the past 50 years?
Do you think you'll get ANYWHERE politically if you dare
to challenge Israel? No one will be the president of the
United States unless they support what Israel does, period.
Wake up idiot.
\_ No president in the past 30-50 years has ever dared to say
anything seriously bad about Israel. All they ever do is
"Oh please don't do that".
\_ After they whacked Kennedy for his ultimatum on
Israel's nuke program, would you say boo? We're
they're bitches.
\_ J00s 0wn0rz j00!
\_ So rather than calling Israel the 51st US State, we
should really call US the 7th Israeli District. And Sharon
is actually not Dubya's son, but father.
\- hello you may wish to read: http://csua.org/u/91g
which is a book on the israeli lobby in the US by
fmr congressman. --psb |
| 2004/9/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33379 Activity:very high |
9/7 Does anyone have any recommendations for Foriegn bands? I quite
like the Mexican Rock band Mana, and the Korean singer Boa is
sometimes ok.
\_ TaTu
\_ Vladimir Vysotskiy, Brathanski, Garmarna, Yann Tiersen, Ali
Primera, Gilberto Gil, Bebel Gilberto, Astrud Gilberto, Tom Ze,
Os Mutantes
\_ If you like rap, MC Solaar has his moments.
\_ Plastilina Mosh? Phil's Finest Hour? Chico Cesar? Damien Rice?
\_ Los Fabulosos Cadillacs (actually a hybrid) and Manu Chao are two
of my favorites. Also, he's been dead for years but nobody's life
is complete w/o some exposure to Serge Gainsbourg, like him or not.
-- ulysses
\_ Do you mean non-English-speaking, or just foreign bands you may
not have heard of? I'm a big fan of the Aussie band The Cat
Empire. You might also have good luck with the BBC's The World:
http://www.theworld.org/globalhits/index.shtml
On a totally unrelated note, has anyone here heard the new Bjork
album? The two tracks I've heard sound pretty sweet.
\_ Sektor Gaza, russia most popular rock n roll band
\_ This must have been a joke, but anyways, just don't listen it in
front of someone who speaks Russian.. As for Russian rock bands,
DDT is certainly the best. The rest are just wannabes.
\_ sektor gaza is awesome! check out these song
titles: http://csua.org/u/8y1 -danh
\_ Hedningarna, Finnish techno-rock-folk group.
\_ It'd be helpful if you mentioned what type of music you were
interested in, but:
Brazil: Carlinhos Brown, Caetano Veloso, Os Mutantes, Tom Ze
Argentina: Reynols, Astor Piazzolla
Scotland: The Delgados, The Pastels
Scandinavia: 22-Pisterpirkko, Pan sonic, Stina Nordenstam,
Flesh Quartet, Sigur Ros
Germany: Jan Delay, Absolut Beginner, Can, Neu
France/Africa: Les Nubians, Khaled, Natacha Atlas
\_ Finland: FINNTROLL
Check out http://allmusic.com and/or pick up a copy of the Wire.
\_ Why do you hate America? |
| 2004/8/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33258 Activity:nil |
8/31 Will the world view the U.S. differently if the US stops
supporting Israel?
\_ The U.S. doesn't really support Israel now.
\_ Only to the tune of $4B+ a year.
\_ not really.
\_ Yes, really:
http://csua.org/u/8us (jewishvirtualibrary)
$2.7B in aid plus $10B in loan guarantees in 2003.
Maybe not exactly $4B, but somewhere around that
every year for the last 30 or so.
\_ no, not exactly. you're wrong.
\_ Your debate skills could use some work.
\_ you're just saying that because you
control the media.
\_ Yes. Now please don't feed the trolls.
\_ The terrarists will!! -lame troll #2 |
| 2004/8/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33193 Activity:high |
8/27 Israeli spy discovered in the highest reaches of the Pentagon:
http://csua.org/u/8t0
\_ Uh, tell us something new?
\_ All countries spy on each other, even allies. The French with
their DGSE actively targets American companies for corporate
episonage.
\_ BUT THIS IS ISRAEL! DIE JEW DIE!
\_ I am not Jewish - !op
\_ WHY DO YOU HATE ISRAEL? |
| 2004/8/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33142 Activity:high |
8/25 Dear god, I agree with the Nazis about something:
"Schoep, who's from Litchfield, Minnesota, says the National
Socialists are protesting the "corrupt dictatorship" of
President Bush."
\_ I hate Illinois Nazis. And the ones from Minnesota too.
\_ Calling all party members in the tri-state area
\_ I've always loved you!
\_ So, in other words, the Nazis agree with Jewish liberals. There's
irony for you.
\_ Self destruction is a common trait among Jewish liberals. I
believe it has something to do with a cultural sense of self-
hatred. "They're always trying to kill us so we must be bad
people". Something like that.
\_ I met a Jewish Nazi skinhead once. I kid you not. At a Chateau
Party. I am still trying to figure that one out.
\_ that's still not as ironic as the black white supremacist.
\_ Well maybe he kid you.
\_ I hope so. He was hanging out with another azzhole wearing
a "Screwdriver" t-shirt, so I don't think so, but maybe
it was all some kind of sophisticated joke that I
didn't get.
\_ I'm Jewish? That's news to me! -op
\_ You're not sure if you're Jewish?
\_ *shrug* All I'm saying is that lots of Jewish liberals hate
Bush, too.
\_ Nazis. I hate these guys. |
| 2004/8/2 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32631 Activity:nil 54%like:35188 |
8/2 Dear German John, are you a Jew? -John #1 Fan
\_ WTF? !john !jew |
| 2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32317 Activity:high |
7/16 American hero against communism, chess genius, and freedom player,
arrested in Japan for deportation to U.S.:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Japan-Bobby-Fischer.html?hp
\_ Talented nutjob caught using revoked passport, will be returned
to face charges for violating a different law.
\_ "talented" is quite an understatement. He may or may not face charges
for playing in YugoSlavia when they were under sanction. Probably
will, but it sucks if so. They should leave him alone. -phuqm
\_ Hey, don't forget anti-Semite!
\_"Of course I am not anti-Semitic. The Arabs are Semites, and I
am certainly not anti-Arab" --Bobby Fisher
\_ Hey, don't forget Jew!
\_ Hey! It's another self-hating jew! |
| 2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32316 Activity:very high |
7/16 Could someone a little more versed in Israli politics than I am
please explain why the hell Mossad would want to illegally infiltrate
New Zealand?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3899583.stm
\_ One theory I heard is that jews with NZ passports don't arouse
nearly as much suspicion when traveling in other countries as they
would carrying an Israeli passport. There was a previous incident
with Mossad forging Canadian passports.
\_ Maybe they're not Mossad like they insist?
\_ We all know how much socialists hate Jews.
\_ They're trying to steal our super-sheep technology!
\_ That's top-sheepcret!
\_ naw, they're just afraid of getting lamb-pooned in the
media if it doesn't work.
\_ I know a little German. He's right over there.
\_ Do you have a little German in you?
\_ Yup, the top-secret NZ sheep-cloning technology that has existed
for decades which made their sheep-rearing industry so
successful. The New Zealanders laughed at Dolly the Sheep.
\_ Dolly was ugly. If you're gonna clone, clone the pretty ones.
\_ All sheep look the same to me.
\_ We're not talking about the rear view here.
\_ RACIST!
\_ SHEEPIST!
\_ In the dark, they all look alike. |
| 12/25 |